The paleontologists are going too far. This is getting ridiculous. They keep digging up these collections of bones that illuminate tetrapod origins, and they keep making finer and finer distinctions. On one earlier side we have a bunch of tetrapod-like fish — Tiktaalik and Panderichthys, for instance — and on the later side we have fish-like tetrapods, such as Acanthostega and Ichthyostega. Now they’re talking about shades of fishiness or tetrapodiness within those groups! You’d almost think they were documenting a pattern of gradual evolutionary change.
The latest addition is a description of Ventastega curonica, a creature that falls within the domain of the fish-like tetrapods, but is a bit fishier than other forms, so it actually bridges the gap between something like Tiktaalik and Acanthostega. We look forward to the imminent discovery of yet more fossils that bridge the gap between Ventastega and Tiktaalik, and between Ventastega and Acanthostega, and all the intermediates between them.
Here’s Ventastega‘s place in the phyletic universe, and I think you can see what I mean — all those species represent an embarrassment of riches, revealing the flowering of the tetrapod transition.
The skull can be compared to others, and the meat of the description of this animal is largely a description of each of the bones of the skull, categorizing and comparing them, and showing that we really are looking at a beast that is partway between Tiktaalik and Acanthostega.
(click for larger image)
Skulls of Tiktaalik, Ventastega, Acanthostega and Ichthyostega in dorsal view, showing the skull roof (grey) used in the morphometric comparison. In Ventastega and Acanthostega the internasal fontanelle is shown darker grey. Not drawn to scale.
I know, you really just want to see what it looks like. Here’s a diagram of the bits and pieces of this wonderful fossil.
(click for larger image)
a, Whole-body reconstruction showing known skeletal elements on a body outline based on Acanthostega. Scale bar, 10 cm. b, c, Skull reconstruction in lateral and dorsal views, based on material presented here and described previously. d, Reconstructed association of skull and shoulder girdle in lateral view. e, Shoulder girdle in anterior view. Curvature of cleithrum based on LDM G 81/522. Unknown bones are indicated with vertical hatching. Scale bar for b–e, 10 mm. f, g, Life reconstructions of head in lateral and dorsal views (copyright P. Renne, 2007). an, anocleithrum; ang, angular; cla, clavicle; clei, cleithrum; de, dentary; fr, frontal; icl, interclavicle; i.fon, internasal fontanelle; it, intertemporal; ju, jugal; la, lacrimal; mx, maxilla; m.ro, median rostral; na, nasal; pa, parietal; pmx, premaxilla; po, postorbital; pof, postfrontal; pop, preopercular; pospl, postsplenial; pp, postparietal; prf, prefrontal; pter, pterygoid; qj, quadratojugal; sang, surangular; scapcor, scapulocoracoid; spl, splenial; sq, squamosal; ta, tabular.
There’s one important fact Ahlberg warns us about, though. When you see a detailed, species-packed cladogram like the one shown above, it is tempting to see the roster of species as a linear series, with one form succeeding another. This is not the case! Many of those species were dead ends, and we’re seeing the tips of the branches, not necessarily any of the members of the main trunk. What all these fossils tell us is a combination of fortunate trivia — it’s good to live your life along the water’s edge if you hope to be fossilized — and amazing success. These early tetrapods were exploring a new niche and were radiating into diverse morphologies at a rapid rate, and so what we’re also seeing is a portrait of a spectacularly successful strategy, the exploitation of the boundary between land and water by large animals.
Ahlberg PE, Clack JA, Luksevics E, Blom H, Zupins I (2008) Ventastega curonica and the origin of tetrapod morphology. Nature 453(7199):1199-204.
Hi PZ,
Does this mean you fall closer to being a clumper or a splitter?
I’m a blurrer. I think all the distinctions are real and interesting, but they all just blend into one another — one great big gemisch of change and diversity.
This this is freakin’ cool, I wish we could clone him somehow as he’d make a great addition to my up and coming pond. Now question, how do they have an overall picture of Ventastega if they only found the skull, shoulders, and hips? Is there an impression of the body in the surrounding dirt or is it simply inferred by knowledge of similar creatures of the time?
Stanwich?
Well, i am personally waiting the arrival of this news on the YEC/ID scene. I look forward to their ‘The Evilutionists are at it again!’ Although, since the Ventastega appears to be a ‘dead-end’ maybe they won’t have a problem with it after all!
it looks a rather jovial beast. what a pity it’s not around anymore.
I always wonder what we are missing from these family trees, considering the difficulty of fossilizing certain structures. For instance a lot of these fish/amphibian transition fossils are fairly big. Most fish and land animals these days are a lot smaller so I wonder if the only ones to have survived in the fossil record are the relative giants of that time.
Likewise I wonder about the environment on land at that time. Invertebrates had a big head start in colonizing that particular series of niches and it might not have been so easy for the vertebrates to simply lumber onshore without some sort of competition – or without ending up as lunch for some big creepy-crawly.
How lovely to see the history of tetrapods coming ever-sharper into focus.
two new gaps!
How did they reconstruct the tail for this fossil?
Cue Stan to rudely demand time-lapse video of a 100,000-year process.
Richard Wolford,
The answer is that they guess (“extrapolate” would be the preferred term, but a guess is a guess) based on similar critters found in similar places from similar times. It’s not the most satifying answer, since there sometimes are mistakes (assumptions can sometimes do that) and those bipedal Creationists tend to point at the mistakes endlessly while salivating as they think of scientists being “wrong” at times.
How dare they keep finding things and making finer distinctions?! DOn’t they know we’re supposed to be moving away from evil-ution and towards proof of an intelligently designed pasta dish world?
~Dan
http://jazzsick.wordpress.com/
awesome.
wait one minute! that fossil isnt complete so evolution isnt true and goddidit and there really was an ark. i just had to say that before somebody else did.
i hope i live at least another 40 years (or even longer) as just to see what else the earth revelas, damn, it makes me all itchy wishing I was digging this stuff up but im just not tough enough, all that dirt and flies.
Read the figure legend: “Whole-body reconstruction showing known skeletal elements on a body outline based on Acanthostega.”
lol, I read the legend after I asked the question :) I was still looking at the picture. Guess it comes down to RTFM. Thanks for the answers Jon and PZ, this thing is still really cool. I’d show it to my creotard acquaintances, but there really is no point.
Wait. We must stop all this work. Don’t they know that every time they find a fossil that fills a gap, they actually create two new gaps? The number of gaps is growing not shrinking – this must stop or the creationists will start making plots of transitional fossil gaps over time showing that science is proving their case for them…
I can just see the next ID headline-
“Evolutionist Gaps Increase by 20 percent in 2008”
Hey – notice how all those increasingly numerous ‘transitional forms’ have species names! That proves that they aren’t really intermediate at all – and that God planned it. To think otherwise would be like saying that my dog’s ancestors were wolves… and everyone knows that dogs and wolves are different species. QED.
“I’d show it to my creotard acquaintances, but there really is no point.”
Posted by: Richard Wolford
Indeedy… I concur, there is no point. Your acquaintances who don’t believe that blind stupid dumb luck or huh hmm… ‘random chance occurrence’ sufficiently explains initial cause, should be grateful that you’ll spare them the latest fishy lizard findings.
It’s a gorgeous wee beastie. This is why I don’t believe in God – everything is infinitely more fascinating and beautiful if there’s a logical process behind it, and it makes the development of the world as we know it that much more interesting. How can anyone derive satisfaction from just saying “Goddidit”?
DAMMIT
just as I was about to get a lobotomy and jump on the ID band wagon
FishLizardGuy said:
Damn, PZ! Convincing this fishy guy that Ventastega is the explanation for the first cause is going a little too far, ain’t it?
We must disband the A.B.S.D.L. (Atheists for Blind, Stupid, Dumb Luck) at once. What have we become?
Luck may be dumb and blind, but God is just plain evil. Think of adult male lions breaking the necks of cubs when they take over a pride. Or liver flukes. Or BSE.
Of course, I expect to hear that all the ills of the world are our own fault, we can’t understand God’s motives, and he only does it to us because he loves us.
FishLizardGuy, Do you ever feel bored? TIA.
I thought that I’d add this for anyone who wants to know a little more:
PZ, since you seem to have image rights to most of these things, I think it would be really useful and interesting to have one page with the cladogram here and the images of fossils and reconstructions for each animal. Basically a conbination of the images here and on your Tiktaalik page, with anything else you have arranged in one table.
the Ventastega can’t possibly be an extinct transitional species. just look at the photo of one at the top of the post. since photography has only been around for about 100 years, this must be a picture of a modern animal.
i think the real question scientists should be answering is: why is the Ventastega smiling?
Nice read… In fact I dare say it was Ventastic!
Am I the first to use that one? No way…
I’ll bet it tastes like chicken.
Very cool. BTW, I found a PDF copy of the paper here (not sure if you have to have a subscription to Nature in order to read it): http://tinyurl.com/6q4h8v
Just another hoax.
BTW, if anyone wants to ask Dr. Ahlberg any questions directly, he started a thread about this paper at http://www.talkrational.org/showthread.php?t=3219
He’s quite good at answering questions for us non-biology laymen.
Cheers.
Maybe John Wilkens will tell us about Gogonasus.
So it looks like Satan’s little fossil making factory has been at it again. Nice twist having only faction of the complete skeleton, almost makes it look real. Too bad Jesus sees right threw this.
You’re right Dan @ Post #13, we need to stop this NOW. Fossils like this fish-reptile are turning our children into gay-Muslim-atheists. We have got to get these fossils before they get AMERICA!
YIC,
BJ Tabor
“gemisch”
I love the word. Were you born with a thesaurus in one hand?
I am reminded of Italo Calvino’s Cosmicomics. There’s a short story called “The Aquatic Uncle”. About one of Qfwfq’s relatives who refuses to evolve into a land creature. It looks like we have lots and lots of aquatic great-great-to-the-umpteenth-power aunts and uncles.
“We have got to get these fossils before they get AMERICA!”
BJ Tabor
Ahh… one of the brightest brighty brights to grace us with their comments. I agree with your assertion BJ; the fishy lizard findings will no doubt create mass hysteria among the believers.
I also agree with scooter… I bet it does taste like chicken. Probably be fantastic grilled with a nice Sauvignon Blanc.
Posted by: FishLizardGuy
As a wise sage once said, “In my experience, there’s no such thing as luck.” You really make little if any sense. Initial cause? What exactly are you talking about? Fundies ignore all evidence, it’s their creed really. That is why there is no point in revealing the wonders of science; their heads are too tiny to grasp it. Goddidit is so much easier to do than, say, learning. Course, it doesn’t help that they burn books before reading them.
Gorgeous illustrations.
Who are they by? It’s hard to make out. Does that say Philip Rennie?
No, we don’t only see the tips of evolutionary branches, but points on the branches, some of which might lead to a dead end.
One thought, though: if all these fossils fall so seamlessly into a line of intermediates, what are the chances we will some day unearth a truly bizarre fossil, one that really was far out on the tip of a branch and had some interesting skeletal modfications that are not easily placed into the line leading to today’s tetrapods?
Which is not what PZ said.
“they burn books before reading them.”
Posted by: Richard Wolford | June 27, 2008 11:49 AM
Nice… burning books…
(I’m typing slowly so that you’ll have a better chance of making sense of what I’m writing)
Listen Richard… Evidence is fine and dandy; nobody cares if we got struck by lightening and slimed our way out of the primordial soup some 4 billion years ago. Just like we don’t care how many quarks we ate in our breakfast cereal… We want to know what happened before the “Big Bang.” As far as the wonders of science and my head being too small to grasp these wonders… this statement is typical of the brighty brights and their/your feeble attempts to posture yourselves as intellectually superior… it’s old hat.
Now get cracking…
“FISHY BLEND” Damn, Damian, that sounds like a real interesting coffee!
“Ventastega lived approximately during the same era as Acanthostega, but its features were more primitive, a sign that Ventastega may have been an evolutionary holdover”
In other words, it was more conservative… couldn’t resist a political dig.
Amazing the progress that real scientists always enjoy, while the loons sputter and whine.
Fishguy @43 “Evidence is fine and dandy; nobody cares if we got struck by lightening and slimed our way out of the primordial soup some 4 billion years ago. Just like we don’t care how many quarks we ate in our breakfast cereal… We want to know what happened before the “Big Bang.” As far as the wonders of science and my head being too small to grasp these wonders… this statement is typical of the brighty brights and their/your feeble attempts to posture yourselves as intellectually superior… it’s old hat.”
Then why are you whining about a new paleontological find? Evolutionary science doesn’t address the origins of the universe. Cosmology may or may not be able to explain the origin of the Big Bang; we may not ever be able to come up with methods for testing it. Many scientists are theists, but they know that their religious beliefs are not science.
As for complaining about our suggesting that you are intellectually inferior, you have already demonstrated a miserable grasp of evolutionary theory. Whether this is by inclination, laziness, or a pathological fear of knowledge, I don’t know. But expressing hostile and forceful opinions about subjects which you are willfully ignorant of is perverse.
If you truly want to know what happened before the BB, you’ll have to wait. We don’t know yet, altho some researchers may be on the right track. Making stuff up is not only not knowledge, it’s worse than ignorance.
I learned about this discovery on TV just yesterday and immediately started wondering how to get more information and voila! here comes PZ. Thanks a lot!
I’m very thrilled that this find comes from my native Courland!
And what do you propose?
One of the dullest, obtuse creotards bore us with comments. However, we should be grateful to FLG because apparently his get cracking encouragement is the reason why we have the science of physical cosmology.
(I’m typing slowly so that you’ll have a better chance of making sense of what I’m writing)
_____
No, my little sour dumpling of agreeable disagreeableness, you type slowly because you think slowly.
Unfortunately, there will never be enough transitional specimens to satisfy the creationists!
“Then why are you whining about a new paleontological find?”
Posted by: kermit
Ummmm… I’m not whining about the fishy lizard findings. Please point out in any of my posts where I have “whined” about any paleontological find. Furthermore, what is this ‘stuff’ I’m supposedly making up? I do see your point regarding evolutionary science not addressing initial cause… but come on… ultimately, at the end of the day, most hard core brighty brights use evolution as a means to berate those who believe. The issue is the lack of humility on both side of the “is there a God” debate. The sheer inability to admit the possibilities is somewhat disheartening. Like Me… I can admit the possibility that this life, our very existence, is completely and totally absurd.
Right, that would be why atheists never criticize theists who accept evolution.
“nobody cares if we got struck by lightening and slimed our way out of the primordial soup some 4 billion years ago.”
Nobody cares? Really? I certainly care about the rich spectrum of life that existed on this planet before we got here. I’m utterly gobsmacked by new discoveries in paleontology.
And, of course, research into how organisms have changed over time have helped to make vast progress in the fields of biology and medicine.
I’m very sorry you find no interest in it, but to say nobody cares? Plenty of people care very much about this kind of discovery.
Pointing out someone’s mistakes is not berating.
If you’re talking about the god debate, I doubt you’ll find many if any here that don’t leave the option open that if someone brought us evidence that showed a higher power, that they wouldn’t consider it. And if strong enough, accept it.
So far no one has done that so we stick with the no god explanation due to overwhelming lack of evidence.
SO this is pure hogwash.
Just because our standard of evidence is stronger than the believers and we don’t find the handwaving and mumbo jumbo convincing does not make your point true.
#50
Well, then… considering the entire POINT of your original post was around this exact point, as you stated thusly:
“Your acquaintances who don’t believe that blind stupid dumb luck or huh hmm… ‘random chance occurrence’ sufficiently explains initial cause, should be grateful that you’ll spare them the latest fishy lizard findings.”
Then the ONLY thing you needed to say in your post #50 was “I do see your point regarding evolutionary science not addressing initial cause… ”
Then just clam it… cause the rest is diversionary fluff.
“Right, that would be why atheists never criticize theists who accept evolution.”
Posted by: MartinM
Sarcasm…? I’m not sure how to respond…
Perhaps one of you brighty brights could handle this one.
I can admit the possibility that this life, our very existence, is completely and totally absurd.
Interesting as your personal existential nausea undoubtedly is to you, what does it have to do with the existence or nonexistence of God? Let alone the wonderful series (or more accurately, bush) of intermediates between fish and tetrapods palaeontology has revealed over recent decades.
The issue is the lack of humility on both side of the “is there a God” debate. The sheer inability to admit the possibilities is somewhat disheartening.
Boo hoo you dishonest piece of shit. Peddle your concern elsewhere.
I often fantazise about being able to keep all my senses, whether visible or invisible and impervious to everything around me, and be present at the Big Bang, witnessing the atomic structure, and then the formation of gravity, galaxies, stars, solar systems, the evolving of all life on earth up to the eventual processes of human development, and then stop at the death of the great Charles Darwin. For the present, what a fantastic thrill to explore our own solar system, to penetrate to the sun’s core and register just with senses without any harm, and experience the thermonuclear forces and ride out on a solar flare or prominence. Then hop over to Jupiter to check out the Great Red Spot, swoop down to the planet’s core and all the while analyzing everything, feeling the effects of those mighty winds, then a slow jaunt around Io to check on those volcanoes, more flybys to the other moons, and the a repeat to the other planets and their moons, analyzing all there is to observe and feel. And get out to Pluto before the New Horizons spacecraft and verify if we should have demoted the little guy. Of course, I can regulate my speed, from the slowest to more than the speed of light, and meander all over the cosmos. What a thrill to hop over to the Andromeda Galaxy, and determine from earth’s position in one of the outer arms of our Milky Way Galaxy, to see if at that approximate position on one of Andromeda’s outer arms whether another Earth has evolved! Can you imagine if this has been the case, and the evolvement has taken a similiar course to ours? Mind blowing! And after swooping between galaxies, to come upon that most tantalizing phenemoa, a Black Hole! Suspended above the event horizon, listening, if it was possible to the rush and the visual manifestations of whole galaxies being torn apart and swallowed by this cosmic monster! Then following those annihilated galaxies down the black hole and see if everything emerges in another dimension and universe, and keeping an eye out for wormholes, strings, parallaxes, and the quantum phenomena of the whole cosmic wonderment. And later, when I have explored as much of the Universe for the moment, as I am still unaffected by time and distance and physical effects, I will suspend myself in a spot of the Universe, with the power to see in a glance all that I have explored, and to exclaim, “What god? This is all that there is; this is the real stuff, and all caused by natural causes!” What a trip!
“Let alone the wonderful series (or more accurately, bush) of intermediates between fish and tetrapods palaeontology has revealed over recent decades.”
Posted by: Nick Gotts
You’re right Nick… On that note I’ll bid you a kind farewell. Anyone who can sincerely use the words ‘wonderful’, ‘fish’ and ‘tetrapods’ all in the same sentence is a friend of mine…
Typical.
Walk in, take a shit on the desk and then make grand hand gestures pointing to your work. As soon as someone mentions the smell, say thanks and leave the room.
FLG – I think it is something you can handle. But, if you are feeling insecure about your lack of education and concomitant ignorance, there is a cure.
Get crackin.’
“Brighty brights”?
The quality of the trolls on this site has really gone down the tubes (not a truck!).
Is there a worldwide Thorazine shortage?
DAWRINIST CONSPIRACY!
DARWINIST CONSPIRACY!!
AAAH! AAAAAH!11!
Wrong. At the end of the day, almost all of us brighty brights (why mind the term? I’m undoubtedly brighter than FLG) use evolution to explain the current distribution and diversity of life on Earth.
It’s only due to the political power of the pick-and-choosers from the biblical buffet who can’t seem to understand the concept of ‘science’ that we bother berating you guys at all.
If theists adopted a live-and-let-live attitude, they wouldn’t get any attention from us. (I’ll leave it to you to decide how that’d affect your persecution complexes.)
Perhaps you might wonder why Buddhism and Taoism rarely attract attention from us brighty brights? (Hint: When’s the last time a Taoist screamed that what you do in your bedroom will destroy us all?)
I-hate-Jesus-Bush-and-America-FishyLizardGuy @ 38 “Ahh… one of the brightest brighty brights to grace us with their comments. I agree with your assertion BJ; the fishy lizard findings will no doubt create mass hysteria among the believers.”
Bright? Were do you get that friend? I am a TRUE Christian™ (White, Republican, Baptist). I positively revel in my ignorance since I KNOW Jesus is the only TRUE Source of Knowledge® So what do I know? NOTHING!
If an atheist is a “bright” then I am proud to be a “dim”.
There is certainly NO hysteria among the good and TRUE believers because we TRUE believers know ALL of the evidence for evilution is a LIE for Satan HIMSELF! Maybe you can get off the fence and join me in believing ALL of the entire Holy work of God, as expressed threw the KJV1611 Bible before you are Satan’s cabana boy.
YIC
BJ Tabor
PS I will pray for you soul that you may escape sin and be saved like me FishyLizardGuy.
PPS I forgive you for you harsh words sinner.
FishyLizardGuy, I think your confusion is down to a misunderstanding of the word “creationist”. When I (and I’m sure, many other commenters) talk about “creationists” we’re talking specifically about the evolution denial camp, a subset of Supers (or Super-di-doopers, to coin your language) to which I’m not certain you belong. I may not agree with your personal beliefs about God, but fail to see the relevance of big bang theory in this discussion of Ventastega curonica.
Your suggestion that scientists “get cracking” on discovering awesome new things about life’s origin is a brilliant one, and I hope you continue to promote science education so that those who do care about such things can continue to explain them in a useful way.
From what I can tell of first causes and the god question, both theists and atheists see a closed door, a locked door that we cannot open, a door that we listen at and, so far, hear nothing (although physicists develop ever more sensitive ears, so to speak). The atheist says, “I don’t know what’s over there. Nothing on this side tells me what’s over there (yet), so I will live my life based on what I find on this side of the door.” As Holbach pointed out above, there’s plenty over here to work with, and if someone does find a way to peep through the keyhole, we’ll be glad to talk. The theist insists that there is something over there. If they stop there (deism, for example), I really don’t have a problem. I think they’re creating something from nothing, but I can live with it. But most theists insist they know a great deal about what’s on the other side of that door. Many believe that it cares about us on a personal level. Many believe that it takes action on this side of the door in clear violation of all laws and evidence that we find here in reality.
Some would argue that I am making a case for agnosticism. Well, like Bertrand Russell, I accept the term agnostic on technical merits (I really don’t know), but claim the term atheist (Whatever, if anything, is over there, the possibility that it has any characteristics we would ascribe to a personal “God” is insignificant — until evidence is produced for it).
The claim that, “There’s no evidence, maybe it’s empty” is just as arrogant as, “There’s no evidence, I bet God’s in there,” is just plain silly. I know lots of people of faith. Some are pretty cool, others not so much. But none of them have evidence to back the claims of their faith.
Absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence, but it ain’t evidence, either.
Picture the tree (bush, whatever) of life graphed in three dimensions, where the vertical axis is time and the horizontal axes have to do with population size and diversity. A thin slice of time such as human history, looked at down the time axis would show us species of various numbers and diversity; mostly slices through branches. A few tips would be seen; organisms which became extinct during this slice of time. Such things as the dodo, passenger pigeon, Caribbean monk seal, and the like.
I think making something like this as a computer graphic would be fun to do.
#66
“Bright? Were do you get that friend? I am a TRUE Christian™ (White, Republican, Baptist). I positively revel in my ignorance since I KNOW Jesus is the only TRUE Source of Knowledge® So what do I know? NOTHING!”
Well, you may not be bright, but at least you’re honest.
It must hurt being a creationist these days. Tiktaalik: push fingers harder , in ears, singe ‘jesus wants me for an Idiot’ louder. Briefly remove fingers to wipe earwax on pants leg, some ruddy scientist comes talking about Ventostega, more evidence for the water to land transition, ram fingers even deeper in ears, singing la la ever louder and waiting, waiting for a PA from Jesus.
One more transitional form and maybe we’ll get some burst eardrums.
Oh would you evilutionists just stop! This is obviously just a diseased fish. The others are just poor sick lizards that couldn’t make it to the ark in time and drowned. This stuff isn’t that hard to understand you know, you don’t need a Phd or anything, all you really need is a copy of the Good Book, it tells you all the science you need to know!
Jeeze, I could feel my brain cells dying while making the joke post… [shudder]
You can type full speed, I assure my reading skills are quite up to par. Now, let’s get to your, uh, point? First, we absolutely do care where we came from, and of course this fossil is just yet another piece of that larger picture. It’s too sad that your “small mind” as you put it can’t seem to understand this.
Oh, and evidence is “fine and dandy”? I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you were a complete fucktard, thanks for clearing that up. Evidence is the core of how we understand our world; it is not just “fine and dandy”, is is required. Otherwise we’d really just be pissing in the wind wouldn’t we, kind’ve like religion, eh?
What happened before the Big Bang? Well, that’s a great research question, one which I believe is being actively pursued by, you know, those “intellectual superiors”. Damn academics/researchers with their knowledge and facts, really get in the way of that whole ‘goddidit’ explanation don’t they?
Oh, and let’s see, get cracking? Seriously, that’s your advice? Yeah, see, problem is that scientists have been peeling back all of these wonders that your “small mind” can’t seem to grasp, since you seem to equate this inability to grasp with something divine.
So your arguments from incredulity simply don’t impress me; feel free to be in awe of the universe, most of us are. But if you’re going to argue some divine bullshit re: the universe before the Big Bang, then I’ll simply ask how many turtles down we need to go before we reach the bottom.
Jeph @ 68 Nice follow up to mine @ 58. I took that trip not so much from an imaginary viewpoint, but with the ralization, with many restrictions, of course, that the possibility is there to disprove any imaginary god or gods of ever having a hand in it. You want wonder and incredible natural creation on a scale we can barely comprehend? Such a journey would almost make me faint in the delirium of ecstasy! And there was nothing out there that would even make me hint at the idea of a supernatural entity. The Universe presented me with all there is to see with the realization that all is as it was and ever will be. That is the wonder I beheld; all the Universe, all the time without any imaginary interference.
“at the end of the day, most hard core brighty brights use evolution as a means to berate those who believe.”
It works quite well too.
“The issue is the lack of humility on both side of the “is there a God” debate. ”
The day I start worrying about looking sufficiently humble to the likes of you will be the day Marvin Gaye and Phil Ochs get married.
“Like Me… I can admit the possibility that this life, our very existence, is completely and totally absurd.”
For a certain value of “absurd”, I totally agree.
“Absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence, but it ain’t evidence, either. ”
It is, however, bollocks, and thus can be ignored. I sure as heck am not going to give credence to every creation story that someone is emotionally invested in.
Richard Wolford @ 73 We can try to reason with these morons as long as the universe exists, but it will not matter for their brains cannot miscomprehend anything but an imaginary god. And yet we have to blatantly reason that if we are able to cast off this superstitious crap with the same evolved brain as the demented(BJ Tabor @ 66), then why are they also not capable of doing the same? Of course it involves intelligence, and also the defect inherent in some brains that were diseased by insane religion, which only adheres to unsound minds. All these demented morons have to do is prove that their imaginary god exists, simple as that. The tooth fairy does not exist, therefore I don’t believe in it. If you can believe in a god, you can believe in anything. and since the Universe fascinates me to no end, I’ll leave it to our friend Carl Sagan to say what I feel is the classic answer to the demented retards; “If you say that that god was always there, why not go a few steps further and say that the Universe was always there”. Makes sense to me, and since the Universe is all that we have in reality, there is no need to consider the irrational of imaginary beings.
Don’t knock it, it’s got “piracy” in it – cons piracy. Much better than the normal sort where you loot merchant ships and intimidate legitimate crews into surrendering; because with Cons Piracy you get to beat the metaphorical stuffing out of religious con artists (and pseudo-science ones) and take away their pretence to have a valid argument or living.
So all aboard the good ship Darwin and fly the Ventastega fossil bones flag.
B J Tabor @ 66 Can you show us your imaginary god? I don’t mean in the standard way you morons always offer, you know in a tree, a pile of shit, or a tornado destroyed town with the religious demented draped over trees, or in your priests and ministers who have the free will to molest children, but in the real and logical presentation, as in showing me an orange and saying here is an orange. Not by showing me your empty hand and mind and saying, “here is my god”. Won’t do. You cannot produce something that does not exist, so therefore it had to be made up, just like your imaginary demented god. Prove it to me and I’ll be a good sport and think whether I’ll still believe in your non-existent moron. Heck, if one of my creations called me a moron I’d be down in a flash to give it what for, whether it be a human or a lowly slime mold. Now you know you cannot produce this phony ghost anymore than I can drink the contents of a Black Hole. We have proved the existence of black holes, yet you cannot prove that even one of your gods exist, and even then in the confines of your demented brain which will still not come forth from so insane a pile of puke. So simple; let’s see your shit god and have it come down and prove that it exists. Come on, pray real hard so it can hear you and carry out your bidding with more intelligently designed tornadoes and deranged humans. The Universe and I are waiting with bated breath for it to appear. In my case, I have all the time left to my life; with the Universe, what’s another fifteen billion years? Prove it, moron!
“I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you were a complete fucktard”
Posted by: Richard Wolford
Hey there Dick… Ummm, wow… you really got me with that one; kudos.
And then there’s:
“It is, however, bollocks, and thus can be ignored. I sure as heck am not going to give credence to every creation story that someone is emotionally invested in.”
Posted by: Rey Fox
__________________________
Hey Rey, if you are going to co-mingle quotes please take the time to list the appropriate posters. For example, the “absence of evidence” rant was posted in response to one of my earlier posts. In other words… you’re a dumb shit!
And do I have this SEF joker correct in his assertion that based upon ones belief system they may or may not be fit to live… or make a living… ahh what the hell, let’s just kill ’em… right SEF? O.K. creepy!
“and take away their pretence to have a valid argument or living.”
Posted by: SEF
FishyLizardGuy,
SEF’s specifically and explicitly talking about “religious con artists” – those who make money out of religion; and about undermining their ability to make money this way, not killing them.
Moron.
There I keep hoping that PZ blogs about it, and then I come way too late to the party… <sigh>
First of all, I wouldn’t call it a tetrapod without any qualifiers. Limb/fin material is still not known. The shoulder girdle looks like that of Acanthostega, and the authors use that (and that alone) to infer the presence of fingers and the absence of fin rays, but that’s perhaps a bit shaky… :-/
It’s inferred from Acanthostega — though the presence of the Acanthostega-style tail fin is supported by the discovery of an isolated long fin ray.
Capable of walking on land? Acanthostega? About as much as a catfish.
——————–
FLG, while mutation is random, selection is not. It’s determined by the environment.
And why did you change the topic to the origin of the universe, and then changed it again to the existence of deities?
“SEF’s specifically and explicitly talking about “religious con artists” – those who make money out of religion; and about undermining their ability to make money this way, not killing them.”
Posted by: Nick Gotts
I know what he’s talking about! But for your benefit, perhaps he can elaborate on just what a “religious con artists” is. Because by your definition, a “religious con artist” would be any priest or pastor etc… that pulls a living from any “religious” organization, regardless of religious affiliation. That sound about right goofy?
Sigh. Creationidiots.
I saw this yesterday and was pretty thrilled. Is there a way that paleontologists can figure out the ‘average’ morphology for a given discovery given a certain number of specimens? I remember (back in high school) where the (very good and wholly non-creo) bio teacher talked about therapsids and the various morphological differences that allowed for classification. It was pretty amazing and part of what got me started on learning latin binomials….
FLG @ #82
“I know what he’s talking about! ”
But…. but… clearly your last post #79 indicates that you don’t… which is why Nick Gotts had to reply in #80…
Ugh… nevermind…
FLG @ #82
NO ONE is talking about killing people, other than you. Priests can get a job doing something useful instead of making up BS about invisible people.
What is your point?
The score line now is just getting embarrassing for them.
Hehehe…..
I don’t think the creationist god like its sheeple fan club very much at all. Otherwise why would it first make, and then allow all these transitional fossils, suuporting all the other evidence of evilution, to be unearthed?
*supporting*!
Burn the books before they burn you.
Gad’s Hooks! Another Behe’s Goose to pluck and roast! And here he’s been hoisted upon his own petard already for moving the goalposts.
I must here second and third Longtime Lurker’s question (#62). The quality declines. Mayhap we have thinned the herd, beaten their best and most brilliant, and now reap naught but the dregs?
An excellent fossil! Thanks again, PZ–I think I’ll forward this to a friend to build a new variant of Draco Irritabilis around.
The MadPanda, FCD
It’s nice to have another transition and all, but I for one am truly disappointed that the forelimbs are missing; that’s the really important bit.
Yay, another tetrapod ancestor! Double yay, as Per Ahlberg works at Uppsala University, my alma mater.
Devonian Times reporting:
Maybe these populations were busy exploring new niches, but it seems they could have done so in a step-wise [sic!] fashion.
But it seems to me they can also pretty much interpolate characteristics at times, as for example using Acanthostega body outline for reconstructing Ventastega.
Have right-wingers admitted the existence of these creatures yet?
I should think so.
Cold-blooded, apparently low I.Q., probably will add to the right-wing vote roster, yep, they’re safe to admit.
(poe) Obviously a FAKE !! JUST LIKE piltdown MAN!!!!
BEsides, dont U kno GO-D Put that there to Tes yr Faith!?!!!?
(/poe)
Really nice to see some more transitional forms, and a good report on them.
Jeph (#68):
You’re babbling.
Please, stop it.
There is no door.
No curtain for the Wizard to hide behind.
Just a subset of people who still believe in the old, arrogant Truth-in-Revelation (with words of oneway humility hammered in for marketing purposes) and those others who make the effort to keep up with the new, evidence based, reasonable truth-in-knowledge, humble in that it is accepted as “just a theory-in-progress”, yet confident in that there is actual reality to it.
And then, fence sitting, there are Those Who Speak In Metaphores, the weakest of the lot, IMHO.
It’s a matter of culture and education. Nobody is ever too old to learn, however.
(/babble)
As Lewis Black said: “We win! We’ve got the fossils!”
What a cool looking creature! I hope there is some DNA that is in good enough condition to replicate, so we could see it in a natural history museum. Oh by the way I have found out what is God…… *points up to the large burning sphere in the sky* The Sun is God. Any element heavier then hydrogen and helium are made in a core of a star. We silly monkeys have been thinking for many centuries that you spell G.O.D. but you really should Spell Sol
^_^ this is my first post here LOL
“Hey Rey, if you are going to co-mingle quotes please take the time to list the appropriate posters.”
You should thank me for making you sound more reasonable than you do otherwise.
Alas, DNA is incredibly fragile. There’s been recent work to attempt to analyze the decayed fragments of DNA from well-preserved fossils that are a few tens of thousands of years old, using various tricks and techniques.
But this organism died a lot longer ago than that.
You can go here, for example:
http://www.palaeos.com/Timescale/timescale.html
Scroll down to where it says “ICS: detailed table”, then down a bit further to where it says “Pleistocene”. The best chance for some DNA recovery is from the very latest (most recent) part of the Late Pleistocene.
Then scroll down to where it says “Late Devonian”.
That’s when Ventastega lived, and died.
@Holbach #78 – I think you may’ve been pwnd by #66 @ Landover Baptist.
As a rule of thumb, DNA doesn’t last longer than 100,000 years (0.1 million years) unless it’s frozen, and there is no place on Earth that has stayed frozen since the Devonian — also, Latvia was close to the Equator at that time…
Bob @101
I followed the link to Landover Baptistbrowsed a little and came across:
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=4474
I don’t know if the first guy is serious, or having a laugh at their expense but some of the comments are hilarious.
Post 7 says “My mother spent an entire three years of my home schooling focusing on The Evolutionist Conspiracy, so I’m something of an expert.”
Too much fun on a Sunday so I’m off to pick some sticks.
he forgot about the commies! WILL SOMEONE THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!!!!!
silly talking monkeys and their belief in a God! they are so unevolved!
Landover Baptist is a parody. So is Objective Ministries, BTW.
To david in #102
Does DNA of a creature get fossilized along with the bones? but i can see why that DNA doesnt last a long time. because its made of protiens and amino acids. what would happen to the dna if its in a vacume of space *ae mars*?
i love science! although im not a scientist…. i am a artist!
BTW we all know because of the history channel that Jesus was a reptile! *tries not to laugh*
Inside the bones.
No, proteins are made of amino acids. DNA is made of nucleotides. Proteins are much more robust than DNA; under special conditions they can survive 65 million years (inside bones again) at the very least.
Ultraviolet and other radiation would hack it to pieces.
And Mars is not a vacuum — it has an atmosphere.
You know what I can’t wait for….
Life discovered on other planets!! I’d like to see the religious try to explain THAT one!
Unfortunately I think it’s probably very unlikely I’ll live to see such a time, if it ever happens at all. (I’ve got my fingers crossed for life on Titan.)
thanks david for the info! whats the chance of Fossils surviving on mars? would it be any differnt on here?
Man,Science is so fun!
thanks david for the info! whats the chance of Fossils surviving on mars? would it be any differnt on here?
Man,Science is so fun!
Aha! I see something WRONG on the Internet (if belatedly).
rob #28, Eastman’s Kodak Brownie camera, the great popularizer — equivalent to Model T Ford — is more than 100 years old. Photography had been going on for the largest part of the 19th century (since 1827), tho’ it became much more widespread in the second half. I think the American Civil War is known as the first war covered by photographers. It’s closer to 200 than 100 years old. Admittedly, compared to the time back to the Devonian, the distinction is rather moot :)
Check out Wikipedia’s Pioneers of photography page, some major early names are Niépce, Daguerre and Talbot. Like the evolution of motor cars, there were a lot of different types around near the beginning. They were big on documenting the world, so there are many fascinating photos of things long-gone. Apart from books, there are a number of photo archives around online, Flickr even started ‘the Commons’ for some of them.
Ryan @ 108 Yeah, can you imagine if we did find life on another planet in or galaxy or the great Andromeda Galaxy(man, Andromeda really fascinates me, twice the size of our Milky Way Galaxy, and a hundred billion more stars than us! Mind blowing!), and they have evolved like us on earth, but with one major difference: no god or gods! And if we questioned them about it, they would say: “What the fuck is that?” How the hell would the religionists on earth
account for that? “But, er, er, ah,” Enough said, morons! And you are right about not being alive to verify life on other planets; it will just not happen in our lifetime. But I am sure we will see the day when humans land on Mars and broadcast back to earth! Shit, we should have been on Mars years ago if we hadn’t screwed up several missions, and had not had to contend with religious opposition because their god did not ordain that we leave earth! Freaking insane religionists! And TITAN! Wow, the possibilities for all sorts of physical and chemical interactions, if not life are mind blowing! I am still in awe of those photos sent back from the surface of this fascinating moon! It will be many years before we can do any enhanced exploration of Titan. But we got there and took pictures and we have them! Here is a new book just published on Titian: “TITAN UNVEILED: SATURN’S MYSTERIOUS MOON EXPLORED”, by Ralph Lorenz and Jacqueline Mitton
Princeton University Press
TITAN…. no way im putting my money on sexy Europa!!!!! what a great name!
ChrisTopher @ 113 No slight meant to Europa, but the surface of Titan looks more interesting with it’s mountains, river valleys and lakes! Europa’s interest’s seem to lie under that cracked ice surface, and it will be a while before we penetrate those miles of ice. Whereas Titan’s features are on the surface, and I would prefer terra firma than deep subsurface water! Hell, they all are fascinating, especially that huge pizza Io!
Poor little Io and his Teenage pimple problem!
but if we do find life (in any kind of form!) i wonder what the religious intitutions would think?
BTW those crack on my cute little Europa are just age marks!!!! she is thinner then Titan!^_^
I call Poe on #66 (BJ Whatever). Didn’t anyone else notice that they linked Landover Baptist? =P
Are these Landover Baptist real? i mean i’ve seen the site, but is this a toy with us or are these rednecks really blieve in statements?
Btw does any really look at the links?