I care about all the things the guy in this cartoon doesn’t.
I do not want to live in the hellscape a Republican victory would produce. I fervently want Harris to win. However…I feel a prophecy coming on.
I prophesy that even if we get the best possible result, a clean sweep by the Democrats capturing the White House, the Senate, and the Representatives, November will be a nightmare. There will be contested elections. There will be false electors. There will be lawsuits. Elections will linger unresolved until Spring. And that’s the gentle stuff.
There will be riots. There will be assassinations. The Capitol will be assaulted. Gangs will roam the streets, attacking anyone not wearing a MAGA hat. Congress will be in chaos, while the Supreme Court looks on in approval, and the NY Times opines on the virtues of fascism.
Mind you, that is the best result to expect.
I don’t own any weapons of war. Maybe I should take some time in early November to sharpen the kitchen knives? Having America wiped clean by a series of climate catastrophes would be a positive outcome.
Yup
No need to worry:
“And so I come full circle on this response and just want to encourage you with some substance that we are in the process of the second American Revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be.” Kevin Roberts, Heritage Foundation President
See! When Kamala wins, all we have to do is let the magats take over. easy peasy.
You should take some time in November to go overseas. These things will happen, as this is not an election but a coup 2.0. Democrats don’t seem to understand this.
PZ, in my considered opinion, you are not a pessimist. Your fears are real and we share them. Your assessment is based on proven past behavior and observed valid trends and we feel it is accurate. Most of human society is sliding into another dark ages. Violence and ignorance are seen proliferating all around us here in scarizona and elsewhere.
Well, that won’t cheer you up. But, I hope you are at least comforted by the fact that you are not alone. You should know that there are still some of us (many I hope) that are trying to stem the tide of violence and ignorance with whatever legal, ethical means we have available. We will not support the xtian terrorists, war mongers or ignorant violent rtwingnuts. There are still some of us who work to create works of beauty, of artistic intellectual value and promote peace and rationality.
Yeah, no, cowards are well known for making empty threats. I’m sure they will attempt to claim that the election results are somehow fraudulent when trumpleskilskin gets his stinky incontinent ass beaten.
Harris is +5 when you exclude the various sketchy polling data. That’s not a sure bet, but it’s an excellent indicator of public opinion. The vast majority of voters hate everything about the maga-party, despite the media’s collusion in pretending that fraud is anything but a criminal.
The people registering to vote in droves are overwhelmingly of the young female demographic, and they aren’t going to be voting for a lying rapist who has deprived them of their right to modern healthcare and self-determination.
#MeToo. Sigh.
Yeah, sure, there will likely be some stochastic problems here and there. There won’t be anything coordinated (although the best possible outcome here would be a seceding Texas) because as Tethys pointed out, on the whole these people are cowards. Watch videos of Jan 6 and see the way these larpers acted at the sound of a single gunshot. And piece-of-shit Kevin Roberts’ statement about “bloodless if the left will allow it” is correct. I know a good many Democrats who are both armed and exhausted of the bullshit. Good luck on your battlefield there, Mister Roberts, you rotten bastard.
One difference is that this time the sitting President is not the one behind the plot.
I think Joe will not hesitate to mobilize the National Guards if asked, or even if not asked. And he does have an actual army at his command, not a ragtag group of seditionists. The Secret Service is already treating January 6 as a major security incident, so the Capitol should be safe.
The main threat is sedition movements in the states which might lead to storming some state capitols, but I think the planning to deal with that is already underway. Once burned, twice shy…
So I’m still pessimistic, but not as pessimistic as P.Z.
I have no optimism at all.
I’ve been saying since 2016 that Trump is not the problem, he is only a symptom.
I’ve known since the 80’s what kind of person he was and is.
Since 2016, we’ve learned nothing about Trump. We’ve only learned about what kind of person would support him and how many of those people exist.
Trump could disappear tomorrow, and his supporters will still be with us, walking among us.
They can’t be bargained with. They can’t be reasoned with. They do not feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop… ever, until they get what they want!
@8 Ed Seedhouse — Yes. And the Capitol Building in Jan 2025 will be an impenetrable fortress. Too bad it had to come to this, but let’s remind ourselves the night is always darkest before the dawn.
Excellent how the author captured to positive view of the people on the other side. In doing so he highlights the fears of the more pragmatic.
My gut feelings based on what I been reading and seeing is Harris will dominate even in many of the battleground states. Feel there are too many people catching on to Trumps schtick and are growing weary of it. Hope I didn’t jinx things with that.
@#7 Dennis K
Agree, the other side has just as many guns, much more reason and enthusiasm should the confrontation go that far.
Yeah, I’ve been thinking that for a while too.
Whoever wins, the other side will contest it. If the electoral college is able to meet and vote on the designated day, on Jan. 6 chances may be that the MAGA House Speaker will not even call a meeting of the House to confirm the vote. Then, he will be acting president! I’m just hoping that there is even a president to inaugurate on Jan. 20, because Biden’s term ends on that day, and he’ll no longer be able to suppress riots and such.
Most of the gun nuts who jabber about watering the tree of liberty are nothing but talk, but some aren’t. There will be bloodshed, I think.
I think that, for example, Dr. Fauci should take a long vacation in another country, leaving before the election and not coming back until some months afterwards.
Bullshit. The Democrats aren’t going to contest it even if evidence suggest that they should. The only person likely to contest the results if he loses is Trump.
Braaiiinnnzz! 😄
Seriously though, yes, the greedy, corrupt, biased nature of humans is nothing new.
I wouldn’t call rump a symptom, but rather an exemplar of a society built on subjugation, manifest destiny, and white male supremacy.
Many bigots and chauvinists were thrilled to have him tell them it was okay to be openly racist and hear him brag about sexually assaulting women.
The result has been a rerun of the original civil rights movements, with modern American society having to confront the fact that it only pays lip service to things like feminism and racism.
Most humans aren’t stunted narcissists, and the majority of the population has evolved socially over the past 8 years to a much better understanding of how sexism and racism and othering are hurting our country as a whole. Too bad it took a murder by cop/ riots/ and half the population being deprived of their civil rights before some of the people believed in societal oppression, but the broader arc is still upward.
Forward!
@ captain kendrick
sounds familiar
“Listen, and understand! That Terminator is out there! It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop… ever, until you are dead!”– kyle Reese
@Tethys, Kendrick was paraphrasing from The Terminator, not a zombie flick.
And yes, Forward! Still, I keep my knives sharp even out here in safe city-blue western Oregon.
Whoops crossed in the mail with Robbo.
The Terminator was crushed, and despite his attempted coup, Trump lost the last election. Absolutely we should expect the fascists to try more. Please don’t think that means they are unstoppable though. They’d like you to believe that, but it’s never been true.
From far away and with very little political competence, I tend to agree with the cautious optimists on this.
The election is for the Dems to lose, and if they manage to win yes, there will be chaos in the political arena, there will be Repub whining and whingeing and lying on a never-before-seen scale, plus certainly some armed incidents here and there.
But: as pointed out in many of the above comments, fascists are Feighunde. Not all cowards are fascists, but all fascists are cowards, so I allow myself to doubt very much they are going to try a repeat of Jan 6 (what’s more, having lost the advantage of surprise by now).
Plus: thanks to the rancid SCOTUS, the Prez now has incredible powers at hand. Should Biden or Harris choose to do some oppressing, they have basically carte blanche and they could thumb their noses and go neener-neener-neener at the world while at it.
Harris will win with 466 to 72 in terms of electoral votes. By 16 percent in terms of popular vote.
From where I sit, the rhetoric in the USA in 2024 sounds just like the rhetoric in Rwanda in 1993, and the body count there was over 800k. Most of the killers were armed with machetes. Americans, you are not safe.
There is only one difference I see and it may be significant: 1993 Rwanda all of the rhetoric was directed at Tutsis, while 2024 USA the rhetoric is scattershot – LGBTQ+, migrants, wokists*, POC, democrats, et al. That may have the effect of dampening the effect. One can hope.
I’m not trying to push any pessimism buttons, but the clearly observed realty is we are entering the dark ages. There was just a network TV news article confirming what we are seeing: rtwingnuts are stealing and defacing harris/walz signs all over scarizona and even smearing feces on some. I have seen this throughout our city recently. These barbarians love lawlessness, lies and violence. I don’t think we are quite at the Rwanda stage yet.
Hey, will a tRUMP bible protect us from the violence of the xtian terrorists and rtwingnuts?
I agree with Tethys. I don’t predict any widespread violence post-election, regardless of the result.
The country is stable, and most people are doing fine economically, even if things could be better. Even the most fervent MAGA hats know they have too much to lose if they take part in mob violence or full blown revolution. There’s a reason why such things typically only happen out of desperation, and while conspiracy theorists might believe that the end of America is nigh if Trump loses, the reality of facing a well armed wall of police or national guard tends to break the delusion just enough to realize that they’re likely to lose everything if they take up arms.
I also expect the authorities in DC and in the swing states where the election will be decided to be well prepared to meet any organized or disorganized threat this time around. Jan 6th only happened because nobody took the threat seriously enough. That’s not going to happen again.
Will there be endless conspiracy theories, court challenges, and other shenanigans? You bet, and I do not expect Trump to concede not matter how badly he loses. Will the MAGA fever go away once Trump leaves the scene? Nope. The next presidential candidate for the Republicans will bend the knee to Trump and assume the MAGA mantle. Is there a good chance some individual will attempt a mass shooting or bombing? Scarily, yes.
But in the end, the vast majority of true Trump believers prefer to stay home and fantasize about revolution — it’s risk free and allows them to avoid any real world consequences for their insanity.
I used to see calls for revolution all the time on the Infowars message boards. I would sometimes challenge them to take the lead, if they were so keen see it happen. They always had an excuse for why they weren’t volunteering to be the first to pop their head above the parapet. They love the fantasy of revolution far more than participating in one.
Now if Trump wins, and starts rounding up millions of undocumented workers. That’s when the violence begins. MAGA hats backed by the government are a very different proposition.
Comparisons with Rwanda in 1993 are ridiculously hyperbolic. The 1994 genocide was the culmination of decades of serious ethnic violence displacing hundreds of thousands of people that started even before the country gained independence as an artificial construct of decolonized Africa, and came in the aftermath of a civil war that resulted in half a million refugees fleeing to neighboring countries. 50% of the remaining population lived in poverty.
Rwanda has never experienced an extended period of peace, political stability, or economic prosperity, and there was endemic ethnic violence on a scale that makes even the upheavals of 1960s American look like a spat between toddlers by comparison. So let’s not indulge in silly comparisons and hyperbole. That doesn’t help anyone.
Judging by the level of diminishing cognitive ability that tfg has displayed over the last three months, I don’t think dear leader is going to be alive in 2028. His body is starting to forget bowel control, his mind is becoming increasingly prone to paranoid delusions, and he has lost the ability to self- censor his speech.
It’s especially telling when he realizes he just said something that he knows will alienate voters, and tries to backpedal that he was just joking around.
I agree with Tacitus. I don’t predict any widespread violence post-election, regardless of the result. The government forces are too strong and organized for these people.
1960s, sure. Now, the upheavals of 1860s America are a different story. After all, civil unrest and civil war — which is what Rwanda had in 1990s — are two different things.
With that being said, I don’t believe any post-election unrest, should it occur, will be anywhere near the destruction caused the US or Rwanda civil wars. But you also can’t ignore the fact that America has many more guns floating around than Rwanda I would assume. The possibility of post-election violence should be taken seriously.
Walter Solomon @13, I think that Harris will contest the vote if Trump “wins” due to all the illegal vote suppression and fixed, false vote counts that the republicans are going to do. Any swing state that’s called for Trump may well be due to doctored vote counts.
They didn’t do that last time (that I know of), I don’t think they’ll make that mistake again.
I too am apprehensive about this election more so then any election I have experienced before and I voted in the Nixon v McGovern election and remember the aftermath and the turmoil both before and after.
The thing that is different from any previous time I can remember is the clear split in the republican party. We may be witnessing the split and forming of a new party and the death or diminishing of an old party. I do not know what it looked like when parties changed before but no party or organization like one is a permanent thing and realignments are a thing but clearly not clean orderly processes.
I ain’t going to go anywhere this is my country as well and I can do nothing but wait and see what will happen next
The failure to bring Trump to justice before the election is going to encourage a new batch of co conspirators.
After the election, if the darkside does not prevail, your country’s laws need a big maintenance and loophole fixing job.
They’ll do their worst. Let’s do our best.
DanDare, if it’s going to do so, then it has not yet done so.
(Election is very, very close now)
Source? I’d love to believe that, but I don’t see either side behaving as if they believe it.
But further to #33, even if Harris wins, the Democrats hold the Senate and retake the House, there is absolutely no sign she will stop enabling genocide in Palestine (and, it appears, the same beginning in Lebanon). When you have to desperately hope for the enablers of genocide to win an election, because you know the alternative is far worse, anything but pessimism is simply irrational.
+5 comes from Ben Meiselas at MidasTouch. You can find him on YouTube. He is one of very few who reports on the sketchy polls that keep skewing results towards the fascist. Network news reports that Harris is at +21 with women, and even higher numbers among voters with a college degree.
Once again, Israel is the only country that is responsible for the actions of Israel.
Neither Biden or Harris is the elected leader of Israel, and the US is far from the only country who supplies Israel with arms and ammo. It’s especially hypocritical of a resident of GB to point fingers at the US and babble about genocide, as your country is also supplying Israel.
Go yell at the Israeli government about genocide. America is not the guilty party. We didn’t bomb anyone.
Jesus fucking wept. The leaders of any state supplying Israel with arms share responsibility for its genocidal actions – that of course includes the UK, although by far the largest share of arms being supplied comes from the USA. I was at a demonstration against Israeli genocide and against the UK supplying arms or it earlier today. I’m not “pointing fingers as the USA” you nationalist fuckwit, I’m pointing them at those in the USA who are supplying arms, and I’m not a hypocrite, you arsehole, because I’m also pointing them at those in the UK doing the same, and regularly taking part in protest actions against them doing so.
As for Meiselas, having viewed some of the MidasTouch videos, I think the Meiselas brothers may well be fooling themselves. I hope I’m wrong.
Acting like Christian fundies by making doomsday predictions that can’t and won’t come true, eh PZ?
Owosso Harpist@37,
I don’t see anything intrinsically impossible, or even particularly far-fetched, in PZ’s prophecies. It’s not like he predicted that if Harris wins the election, Trump will promptly phone to congratulate her!
#38
It’s no different than constantly making end times predictions that never came true.
#39
Yes, it is different. We have the example of what happened when Trump lost in 2020. Several of these things:
did happen. There are certainly no moral restraints which would prevent Trump, his followers or his tame media making the others happen, and we know that large sections of the police and the judiciary are pro-fascist.
KG, ahem.
“Mind you, that is the best result to expect.”
Since one hardly ever gets the best result, it means that he thinks it will be very likely be worse than that.
(It’s obviously ridiculous hyperbole, better outcomes are certainly possible, even if low-probability)
—
Well, we’ll see soon enough about these street-roaming gangs attacking non-MAGA-hatted people. :)
(Also, when is Congress not in chaos?)
#41
Stupid Idiot croaks from dementia (which will happen really soon) and the entire MAGA clown regime will instantly diminish just like the Nazi regime have done in 1945 just after Hitler killed himself. Please don’t tell me things differently. What PZ predicts is not going to come true period.
I’m reasonably optimistic about the outcome.
Main reason: Trump and his plans and techniques are now a known quantity; first iteration, people could not bring themselves to believe he would break all the norms and mores of the position, and that others would go along with it. That advantage is gone this time.
Even from Oz I could feel the change in the seasons when Biden dropped his nomination and Harris became the nominee.
(Of course, I was somewhat optimistic in 2016, too — and my birthday is on 5 November)
John Morales@41,
Yes, reasonable point.
Owosso Harpist@42,
Well if he wins, then croaks, we get President Vance, and they will transfer their allegiance to him. If he loses, then croaks, the MAGAs will claim he was murdered by the Democrats but will probably fall to fighting among themselves for the succession. However the situation will not even remotely resemble that after Hitler’s death, which occurred when the Nazis were about to be annihilated as a military or political force whatever Hitler did.
John Morales@43,
Yes, when Biden was the candidate, I was sure he was going to lose, and the switch to Harris made a considerable difference. But if the polls are right, it will likely be very close, and if they are wrong, it could be in either direction.