Here’s a good Christian attitude for you.
Let’s take the message apart!
Dear atheists,
A lie in the first word. This is not an affectionate message; using “dear” in a salutation is inappropriate.
If you had the chance to ask God
Who?
Which god would that be? The wrathful being who cares very much about my genitals, or the vaporous phantasm who retreats every time we ask one of his followers to explain his actions? Because in the first case, I’m dead, my genitals are rotting in the ground back on Earth, and I don’t have to care about his approval (not that I ever did anyway), and in the second case, a good hard glare will make him fade into nothingness.
for forgiveness,
Forgiveness for what? Existing? Doing the best I can to get by? Not stoning gay people, not believing in a magic man who lived 2000 years ago, eating shellfish?
how hard would you beg?
I guess this isn’t a very benign deity you’re talking about, that he expects people to grovel before him.
My honest answer? I don’t know how I would react if I encountered your psychopathic thug of a god. If there were such a thing as an all-powerful super-being who confronted me, I know I’d be afraid, especially if he were threatening me with torture if I disagreed with him, and eternal enslavement if I obeyed him. I’d probably also feel despair that this was the nature of the universe, a kingdom ruled by a hateful tyrant.
Your scenario is telling, though. Here’s a comparable and somewhat more believable one: you are awakened in the night by a large, muscular man holding a knife to your throat and screaming, “BEG FOR FORGIVENESS!” at you. What do you do?
I’d be terrified. I might whimper out “Please don’t kill me.”
But what I wouldn’t do is feel love for this man, I wouldn’t praise him, I wouldn’t tell everyone else what a wonderful person he was.
Fortunately, there is no such person threatening me, and I don’t feel that fear.
But what about you, Southern Baptists for Todd Kincannon? You believe with all your heart in the existence of the angry tyrant with a knife at your throat. Why do you love such a being, and demand that others also adore him?
I’d like to understand that.
Also, you don’t get to fall back on that “God is love” bullshit. You’ve just told us atheists that this god would demand that we beg him for forgiveness, which isn’t exactly loving. You also say,
However way they ask Him for forgiveness, it better be on their goddamn KNEES.
You clearly imagine a cruel and demanding god. Why worship it?
If the Southern Baptist god exists and I confront him then he’d better be doing some begging for forgiveness himself. A supposedly omniscient and omnipotent god who allows evil in the world and perpetuates some himself is a sadistic bully. I’d demand he not only ask for forgiveness but fix the problems he allows and causes. If he doesn’t I’ll spit in his face. What’s he going to do? Send me to Hell? According to Todd Kincannon’s Southern Baptists I’m already going there.
I never kneel for unnatural purpose.
I find the Loving God to be every bit as frightening as the Elder Gods. The Elder Gods are at least honest about their cruelty and hatred and their desire to drive us mad with fear.
So the Southern Baptists are trolling again, I see.
This doesn’t even work from a Christian perspective. Mainstream protestant beliefs are fairly simple. You can ask their god for forgiveness whenever you like, Right now, tomorrow, whenever you feel like it. They have altar calls for that very reason. And no one is required to beg. You just have to want forgiveness, be contrite and admit you are a sinner.
Apparently, being an atheist is such a heinous stance that you have to do things differently than the run-of-the-mill sinner.
Huh? Since we don’t accept the “ask God” premise, what’s forgiveness got to do with it? The sucker in question doesn’t exist.
Of course, they want us to entertain the notion that their nasty self-righteous image of a supreme deity is real, hoping we’ll frighten ourselves into belief (instead of the opposite). Instead of turning the tables and demanding that they try to imagine the nonexistence of god, why not ask them to imagine that they’re simply wrong about his nature? Ask them to imagine a god who is actually righteous (unlike the god of the Bible), who hates bigotry and small-mindedness and who will spurn them in the afterlife. That’s more likely to frighten them.
Wow, what blatantly sadistic projection. They want to see you beg on your knees. That’s the fantasy they have in their heads.
You misunderstand them, PZ. They want that psychopathic thug of a God, as long as he’s threatening you.
I must say, I can see what that block is implying one should ask forgiveness for: Denying Gawd’s existence. IF I were to meet someone I was previously insistent on denying the existence of, I WOULD ask _forgiveness_, not _beg_. I would say, “Oops, nice to meet you, I was sorely mistaken to think you did not exist. I’m sorry I denied your existence, sorry. see ya. bye.” {mic drop} Then just walk away.
Any “begging” would be if that Gawd thing started torturing me. I would beg it to stop. Not beg for forgiveness. Yeah, I MIGHT cry out, “Forgive me, please stop.” But when tortured, does the tortured really say anything other than what he thinks the torturer wants to hear? ‘Under duress’ comes to mind.
And what is the point of this blockad anyways? Is this question rhetorical? Are they just trying to make atheists “think about their error”? This “question” raises more “implications” about the questioner than the targeted.
I had never heard of Todd Kincannon until I saw this post. I just googled him. Ick. I think I’ll go take a shower now.
Well, I like to think a person will meet the god they create, so I hope every single one of these people get to spend eternity with that creature, just like they wish. My non-existence will be a blessing compared to that.
The only knee action I’d employ is straight into its groin. It wouldn’t feel it, being a god and all that, it but the look on its face would be worth it.
visiting that facebook timeline linked under the image, up there, Southern Baptists … posted:
gee, how ‘charitable’, and ‘forgiving’, that “Baptists For Todd” is.
isn’t afterlife all gravity&materialism-free? So how could one get on one’s knees to beg?
“So, being married to Christ is like….”
Well, at least it’s consistent. I have never been able to grok the gloating smugness parading as righteousness in such declarations. From my point of view, all it does is to reveal the deep ugliness chuckling under that skin thin veneer of entitled morality.
How is this god of theirs any better than their devil?
This facebook site is not real. A few subtle remarks give it away. “I get my meat like every other normal American: in a plastic-wrapped container from a supermarket.” “This is what a real, obedient Christian woman is like”. “ARRESTED FOR WHAT? DOING WHAT ALL REASONABLE HUSBANDS HAVE DONE FOR CENTURIES”
Is there any “Southern Baptist for Todd Kincannon” other than, you know, Todd Kincannon?
How close to that scene from the Avengers movie where Loki threatens people in Stuttgart with his staff and shouts “Kneel!” at them, with maybe the small difference that at least Loki a) did a fine job of measurably existing at that point, and b) did not pretend to be merciful or loving. That scene was meant to paint a character with awful insecurity and jealousy issues who is trying to feel strong by an act of petty bullying. The Southern Baptists must have misunderstood it as a show of dignified god-like behaviour — telling and sad.
Saying “goddamn” is taking the lord’s name in vain.
That’s a sin.
Bad Todd.
The Facebook page has been closed down.
A real Southern Baptist would never use the word “goddamn” when actively talking about God. (they shouldn’t be doing it at all anyway, but especially not then)
IDK. I think the question would be how hard He/She/It would beg mankind and any other life form for that matter.
I’m not given any agency in the matter, slapped with original sin for the crime of being born (again, no one asked my opinion ) then stacks the deck against me by subjecting me to “animal urges” to eat, compete, mate, create, and there’s ostensibly no owners manual except this self contradictory book of outdated just-so stories that’s written in an arcane, ridiculous dialect that makes those third-language translation manuals that come with the book case you bought at Target positively insightful and revelatory. Then the God who already knows how this play is going to end but is going to fuck with you any way wants you to kiss His/Her/its ass for sending his son down to “save” you but only if you repent and recognize him ( is It really saving you if It knows whether or not you’re going to repent and doesn’t act on it?). And the son is going to save you by dying( how emo) but isn’t really going to die, so it may or may not be the ultimate sacrifice, but now you’ve got to kiss TWO asses to get into heaven instead of one, and because of your mortality ( which you didn’t ask for) you’re going to have to die anyway. And it might be a painful shitty death, hard to say, luck of the draw. Yeah, I think He/She/It should be getting on its knees right about now.
From looking at the reactions to that Facebook post I’d have to say that this is backfiring. Reactions go from telling them they are ripping off people to God doesn’t exist to one that is decidedly NSFW.
If it’s Jesus’ dad we’re talking about, he should be asking us for forgiveness (after he starts to exists of course).
Never mind asking “which god” are they talking about, this graphic could just as easily pertain to “If you could, what would you beg of Santa Claus?”
We really need a new salutation that can be used politely with non-dear people.
KNEES WILL BE PROVIDED.
@23 Who Cares
I think it’s a satirical site.
I mean one of the pages that is Liked by that page is “Todd Kincannon a Twit on Twitter” and “Todd Kincannon is a sick / extreme right nut. Let’s stop the offense”
I wouldn’t ask forgiveness for squat. This god thing would have some ‘splainin’ to do. Starting with childhood cancers. I can wait.
sigh.
You don’t understand the Elder gods at all.
They are utterly indifferent to us. They barely know we exist and certainly don’t care one bit. That is what makes them so scarey.
Stockholm Syndrome?
True.
Gods are just sock puppets, who only exist in people’s minds. This guy’s god is…just like him!!!
Dear Southern Baptists for Tod Kincannon (whoever that is).
Take your sick attitudes, hate, and imaginary god and get lost. There are adults in the room and they are too busy to bother with your acting out.
God apparently made me too stiff-necked to beg. If it came to my waking up one day and finding myself a believer in god, I’d be a satanist.
Hey…. If you’re a god-worshipper and you’re bad, you go to hell. If you’re a satanist and you’re bad, do they send you to heaven? I may see an out here.
Stockholm Syndrome?
Whether the site and “Todd Kincannon” is parody or not (sounds like it is) doesn’t negate the fact that there is indeed a popular theistic notion that atheists and people who believe in the ‘wrong’ God are going to need and/or want to beg the real God for forgiveness. This can only rest on the idea that coming to the wrong conclusion on religion must be a moral failing rather than a rational one. There is no need to beg pardon — on your knees no less — for an honest mistake which a reasonable person might be expected to make.
And that belief entails that the existence and nature of God is a matter of common sense — clear, obvious, and not the sort of thing anyone can make an honest mistake about, regardless of culture, upbringing, or experience.
I call shenanigans.
You know, even without taking it apart and showing how flawed it is on multiple levels, and simply taking it at face value, the answer, in my case, is ‘not very hard at all’. If God did exist, and he was the omniscient, omnipotent being he supposedly is, he would know why I did not believe in him. If he is in any way a rational being, he would then know that it was basically not my fault I did not believe in him, and would thus understand and forgive me. If he’s not a rational being, there’s no point in begging, as there’s no real guarantee it would do any good.
Unfortunately, Kincannon is not a parody:
Arrested for domestic violence. He’s also quite a massive asshole on Twitter. Scroll down for his racist tweets.
Anti-trans slurs contained in his tweets in this link.
Guy’s a grade A piece of shit.
Oops, sorry Sastra. I see you were calling the FB page a parody and not the guy himself.
@ #19:
No, it isn’t. The “in vain” part equals (to the Orthodox) a heinous form of perjury. It has no relation to expletives or profanity but to a sworn oath – rather an über so help me god.
I have thought for some time now that if this idea of god was real and all this devil and heaven and hell of christianity was real and the devil was a real “evil spirit” who was the prince of lies it would be impossible to tell if the voice of god that is spoken about was not the devil lying to people in order to lead them astray. the god is impossible to tell from the devil.
further if god were real I feel no need to grovel for many of the same reasons stated above “his” knowing everything and making everything and all.
My feeling for god is very simply expressed in this old blues song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd-o_kLONVI
uncle frogy
@gearloose #2
Really?
I never kneel for a natural purpose.
Those unnatural purposes though, mmm, mmm good!
TRIGGER WARNING FOR TRANS HATRED AND MISOGYNY
(that he includes gay men as a group he gets to pass judgement on is sick, even if his statement about gay men isn’t enough for a trigger warning…)
The most delightfully fucked up of the Todd Kincannon tweets is this one…
Speaking as a bi-dyke? He can have his “celebration” of the “Mona Lisa of genital sports” on Ganymede. I’ll even spot him several tons of liquid oxygen once he gets there as long as no one gives him any reaction mass.
That FB page of SBfor McKinnon is thoroughly wretched. Posts buxom young lass, provocatively posed, with an overlayed text: “I want to take your massive hot load || of laundry and fold it.” with the accompanying comment, “How a proper woman behaves! Take that feminists!”
I had to wash my glasses to remove the stain from that shiße of an attitude. Trying to disregard all the attacks on the Native Americans, “Listen, Natives, America is for Americans.” In other words, “Natives, GTFO!!!!”
How did PZ ever find this shißesite? Maybe “atheist” was the keyword he Google’d for. Google is dangerous at presenting so many results for seemingly innocuous search terms. Sturgeon’s Law applies even more to the interwebz: 95% of everything is total shit. This McKinnon site is prime example of that maxim.
re 42: errata:
McKinnon<– KincannonYep. That God is one sick son of a bitch.
“the Mona Lisa of genital sports”? So, heavily guarded and completely inaccessible to virtually everyone? Wooden? Mysterious and overrated? What does this idiot even mean?
@neverjaunty, #44:
Subject to cheap imitation for the gaze of those who wouldn’t recognize what was special about the real thing if it bit their earlobe?
#10 & #32 – Agreed. For those who believe in the Abrahamic god, the attributes they ascribe to it are often a pretty good window into their own psyches. An angry, intolerant, sadistic god is preferred by an angry, intolerant, sadistic person. People will prefer hate or love, according to their nature, with or without deities. I don’t know which bothers me more sometimes, the hate filled xian that is easily dismissed intellectually but who causes a lot of pain in this world, or the love filled one that is wasting their time on nonsense, as well as indirectly giving cover to the haters.
@tuibguy, 3
OUTER Gods. The Elder Gods are relatively benign. It’s the Outer Gods that are madness to behold…and even then they aren’t really doing it deliberately, it’s just a side effect of their existence, and they bear humanity no more malice than a boot does an ant.
Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you’re going to burn in Hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on Earth and you should save it for someone you love.
— Butch Hancock
I just passed a Baptist church sign that read something like “Accept the bread of life or you will be toast.”
This is BTW, just Pascal’s Wager restated.
Dear follower of the Fake Religion of Jesus aka Christianity:
When you meet Brahma and Odin to find out your next life assignment, how hard would you beg to not be reincarnated as a slug or tapeworm*?
(Don’t bother begging. Brahma hates Pascal’s Wager and your progress has already been set back a million years. But don’t worry, Brahma and his friends are far more benign than your nonexistent monster god. You get multiple shots at the goal. And a million years will go by fast, assuming you are the best slug you can be.)
*PS Don’t screw up it. You are already failing. Being reincarnated as a fundie xian isn’t much better than being reincarnated as a slug.
@slithey tove (twas brillig (stevem)), 42
You do realize that the whole “Southern Baptists for Todd Kincannon” facebook profile is a satire/parody and deliberately offensive.
At least that one’s funny. Doesn’t make any of it any more meaningful, of course!
re 52:
yup… I guess… If you say so… I suppose….
IE that page is a PERFECT example of the actual meaning embedded in the Poe’s Law meme:
A piece that is impossible to distinguish as either |Actual Religosity| or |Satire|.
<chuckle> ;-)
There was a point in my deconversion where I believed God was both: 1) real, and 2) a fucking monster.
I believed he had all his claimed powers (thought-reading, omniscience, omnipotence, ability to condem to heaven or hell), but none of his claimed qualities of goodness, justness, or love, given that the stories of the Bible utterly invalidate those character trait claims.
I had begged God for forgiveness when I was full on fundy and thought him just, but given the added monster-status?
No, I did not then beg him for forgiveness. I despaired at having devoted decades of my life to his “service”, of serving a fucking monstrous tyrant who created flawed beings he knew he’d condemn to hell, all for his “pleasure”.
This situation didn’t last long, as my stupid brain eventually reasoned that the utter lying about God’s goodness made his claims of miraculous powers equally suspect (to be fair to my brain-washed self, I wasn’t going entirely off the Bible’s claims at that point, but off the testimonies of other Christians of miracles), but I know how I would respond: I wouldn’t beg for jack shit from that fucker, even on threat of a Hell I believed was real.
Oh the silliness of believers… They can’t even imagine that anybody would do anything other than they would do.
If the Southern Baptists for Todd Kincannon are going to fantasise about how people will react to angry fictional entities, then anyone can play that game;
Dear
atheistsSouthern Baptists for Todd Kincannon,If you had the chance to ask
GodAllah for forgiveness,how hard would you beg?
—————————————————————————————————————————————
Dear
atheistsnon-Orcs,If you had the chance to ask
GodSauron for forgiveness,how hard would you beg?
—————————————————————————————————————————————
Dear
atheistsNon-cultists,If you had the chance to ask
GodCthulhu for forgiveness,how hard would you beg… to be eaten first?
Each of the above fictional creatures is equally supported by evidence (that is, not supported at all). Why should I fear this imaginary Yahweh fellow anymore than any other creation of fantasy fiction? Why would I beg for anything from that which does not exist?
I expect that the Muslim god has characteristics that are yet more unpleasant.
ashley @ 58:
Oh? Now why on earth would you expect that, given the Abrahamaic roots of Christianity and Islam? Perhaps you should give a bible a read, that xian god is a pretty nasty character, and that’s an understatement.
If anyone tortured me I’d probably beg as hard as I could for the pain to stop. If God was real being able to torture me into submission and misery would not make him special. Nor would it cause me to worship him. Well, maybe in a “My name is Reek” way. I’d hardly call that free will.
Ashley,
It’s the same god.
Muslims would say otherwise. One god sends to hell for not being Christian the other for not being Muslim.
ashley, #58
No, Muslims are the ones who will say Allah is the same god as the Christian god. Islam is a finalization of the previous revealed religions brought to humans by the various messengers (these include figures like Abraham, David, Moses, Jesus, and finally Muhammad).
In Islam, Muhammad is nothing more than the next major (and final) prophet in line after Jesus. Allah is the same god as the god of the Jewish and Christian religions. Muslims just say Christianity is wrong about some aspects of this god (and of Jesus).
As for that, both versions of the deity are just as unpleasant. I don’t see how one can be said to be nicer than the other.
Jackie the social justice WIZZARD!!! @ 60;
God as Ramsey Snow? A capricious, torture-obsessed psychopath acting out deep-seated personal insecurities by violence against others – sounds spot on to me. And since god doesn’t exist, those attributes are clearly being projected onto that blank canvas by certain types of believer…
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
Ashley @ 62;
The point Jackie is making is that, whatever the various adherents of those faiths may believe, there is a demonstrable historical continuity between all the Abrahamic religions – there are obvious similarities in the structure and belief systems espoused in the Talmud, the Koran, and in particular the old testament of the Bible, and all three draw much of their mythology from earlier iterations of religious belief. As an example, consider the similarities between the stories surrounding Osiris from the Egyptian pantheon and those with regard to Jesus; betrayal, death by torment and mystical resurrection are oft repeated tropes found throughout the history of religious belief.
In terms of their structure as religious belief systems, and the historical roots of their theistic traditions, Yahweh and Allah are, to all intents and purposes, different iterations of the same core monotheistic god concept.
Saad: Openly Feminist Gamer @ 63;
Exactly, and that is the basis of the greater standing and tolerance extended to ‘the peoples of the book’ (meaning Jewish and Christian groups) found in the colonial era of Islam – cultures like the Ottoman Empire recognised those religions as being connected to their own and as worshipping the same god, hence the higher status afforded to them relative to other religious groupings.
ashley @ 58;
Read the Bible again; according to the Christian holy book, Yahweh endorses murder (including child murder), full blown genocide, rape, slavery and various forms of torture, just so long as they are undertaken in a ‘godly’ fashion.
It’s pretty difficult to top that when it comes to ‘unpleasantness’.
Points noted. However, I am sure that there are things in the Koran (I have not read it) that contradict things in the Bible (which I have read).
ashley:
No, they would not.
It’s still the same god, which does not exist, and no one is sent to hell. You’re reaching in your attempt to uphold your bigotry. You could fix that, you know, by actually learning what people are attempting to tell you. If you were attempting to make [the xian] god look better, by claiming that other god to be worse, it didn’t (and doesn’t) work. There isn’t anything in the ‘verse which could make that psychopathic god look good.
ashley @ 67:
What does that have to do with anything? There are mass amounts of contradictions in the bible itself, starting from page fucking one. There are differences between a bible and the torah, too. It’s still all the same fucking god, Ashley. Did you not get a bloody hint from when I mentioned the Abrahamaic roots of these religions?
You started out with an attempt at saying, “well…that Islam god is worse, so there!” Now you’re on to “well, I bet that foreign holy book contradicts the bible, which is…” Which is what, Ashley? Infallible? True? The for realz word of god, yo? In short form, what in the fuck do you want to say, Ashley? Stop dancing about.
ashley, #67
Absolutely. In fact, that’s one of the purposes of the Qur’an: to undo the bastardization of the one true faith. Muslims believe the Abrahamic religions were all corrupted by the subsequent followers. Each prophet brought the true word of Allah which their followers later corrupted, hence the need to appoint Muhammad to finalize the message.
But as it’s all bullshit, I don’t see what point you’re really trying to make. We can say Christianity and Islam are bullshit through and through, but you can’t deny the content, history and development of the religions.
Oops, that didn’t come out right. I mean you can’t deny the content as in you can’t deny that the religions say what they say.
Why is Caine calling my comments ‘bigotry’, please?
The rude aggressive person here is Caine, not me. He or she needs to calm down.
I get it now. Caine assumes I am arguing FOR the Christian god. I am not (though I once was a Christian but the said god either does not exist or is evil based – on my experiences).
He or she should try not be less angry and less prejudiced. In my opinion.
ashley, you could try not coming out with such obvious utter nonsense as to suggest that the islamic god is somehow worse than the xian one. Since a) they are variant flavours of exactly the same myth, and b) the xian god is a monster by any standards – what is the point of playing monster-god olympics anyway? If it isn’t just your attempt to paint muslims as somehow inherently worse than xians?
and
1. I’m sure the bible and Koran contradict in many places. It’s irrelevant. The bible itself is full of contradictions. Some of the earliest xians wanted to have two gods, an OT one and a NT one. Others just wanted to toss the OT.
2. If you haven’t read the Koran, how do you know Allah is worse than Yahweh?
3. I haven’t read the Koran either. Reading the bible was gruesome enough.
4. What people here aren’t buying is your statement that Allah is worse than Yahweh. You don’t provide any proof, data, or reasons. It really looks like a throwaway line from someone who has no idea what they are talking about.
5. It’s possible. Or not. I don’t know either. People who have read both books claim they are equivalent. The bible might be slightly more useless but only because it is longer.
6. Anyone here know anything about the god of the Koran? Let’s have a cage match, Allah versus Yahweh.
“you could try not coming out with such obvious utter nonsense as to suggest that the islamic god is somehow worse than the xian one”.
If I was wrong I was sincerely wrong.
Many fundamentalist Muslims are evil in a way that fundamentalist Christians seldom are (unless you think lying is as bad as beheading innocent people or setting off bombs in crowded locations for no reason). Thus I assumed that the Koran condones the murder of infidels. Am I wrong?
How many people in this discussion have read the whole of the Koran?
In the Bible the New Testament (words of Jesus) contradict the savagery advocating by the Old Testament god.
(Of course if there is no god the discussion of ‘which god is worse or are they the same one?’ is academic anyway.)
I tried looking it up on Google. That usually works. Which god is worse, Allah or the Christian god?
It didn’t work.
There are huge arguments and no consensus and it divides mostly on…religious lines.
It isn’t that interesting a question anyway. The fundie xian god is a morally bankrupt, incompetent, monster. Whether Allah is slightly better or slightly worse doesn’t make much difference.
ashley, #77
Yes, and this is due to the place fundamentalism has in a lot of Muslim societies, not because of something about the nature of Islam. That Islamic fundamentalism has a tighter grip on Muslim societies and is more damaging to Muslim societies than Christian fundamentalism does not mean the religion is worse. It means those societies are lagging behind in secularism. It doesn’t say too much about the texts of the religions (The Bible contains killings, misogyny, etc too).
Pakistan is about 98% Muslim (and overwhelmingly Sunni at that). Can you imagine if the France was 98% Christian (and of those 80% were Catholic)? A lot of Muslim countries are simply where Christian Europe was a few hundred years ago.
I have. Both as a Muslim and as an ex-Muslim.
The Qur’an contradicts the savagery advocated by itself too. You won’t believe how many times Allah boasts of his benevolence and forgiving nature.
1. Cthulhu, you really don’t know anything. That is at least a start, ignorance is entirely curable.
2. Your statement is true today. And why is that? Because a lot of brave people spent 5 centuries putting xianity on a leash and in a box.
They would cut our heads off in a heartbeat and many of their leaders say this every day!!! They don’t because…we don’t let them.
3. Look at the history of xianity. It’s rivers of blood from as soon as they gained power until we took it away from them. The Albigensian crusade killed a million people. It was a 100% successful genocide. They got every single Albigensian.
A war started by xians not much more than a century ago killed 20 million people. The Taiping Rebellion.
Witch burnings, heretic burnings, genocides, religious wars that killed millions, Crusades, two of which were against other xians.
It terms of who killed how many, the xians are the current world champions.
ashley
Except when it does not. If you have indeed read the entire bible, you have either forgotten a lot about if, or you didn’t understand it (or you are lying).
The old and new testaments are no different on that account, and you’re not controlling for many other factors like politics, economics, etc. Since Muslims are human beings like the rest of us, not just religious boogeymen, those things do matter. There are lots of current and historical social conditions to play a role, which we’re generally more aware of when it comes to our own circumstances. The causes of such things never do reduce to some musty old text that you haven’t even read.
To make it more confusing and contradictory, the NT is a multi-author work of fiction.
There are several different Jesuses running around in the New testament. One of them isn’t very nice.
At various times, jesus threatens to kill everyone who didn’t believe he is god, gives directions on how to beat your slaves, recommends that men cut off their testicles, tells everyone to hate their parents and siblings, and goes on an anti-semitic tirade in John.
ashley:
You’re wrong. You obviously haven’t read the bible, or you’d know this. In the NT, Christ stated, more than once, that he upheld the laws of the OT. Perhaps you should read a bible again. I suggest the Skeptic’s Annotated. At any rate, you are trying to defend christianity and the christian god, holding up Islam as a religion of horrible, awful people. Lots of religious folks are horrible, awful people, who say and do horrible, awful things. Commonplace as dirt. That’s why you’re being bigoted, Ashley – you are still convinced that the christian god you [used] to believe in is a better, kinder god. You refuse to understand that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all share the same god, and that all the holy books share a basic core.
You can call me all manner of things, Ashley, but it’s quite clear you haven’t quite left your religion and beliefs behind, along with the brutish bias in said religions. Christianity only seems kinder and better because it’s been somewhat leashed by society. Back in the day when the church ruled, there was a hell of a lot of vicious, hateful, terrifying action going on, in ‘god’s name’ – many wars, crusades, inquisitions, and so on. Christians have a long history of being blood-thirsty, judgemental asses, and a great many of them still are, you know.
In the Christian afterlife, the few who were good get to play sit on clouds and play harps, while the bad burn in fire forever. In the Muslim afterlife, the good get food and drink and sexy times, while the bad get out of a non-fiery hell after a while. I think that Islam come off as less evil, there.
Yes, most of that is up for interpretation and not even in the scriptures, anyhow.
But dang, Christianity has killed so very many people. And often for being the wrong flavor of Christian, or the wrong flavor of Abrahamist. Muslims, historically, killed the heathen if they did not convert, and left the other people of the book in peace.
But, as has been said, Islam is going through a fundamentalist phase, and that is the real trouble.
“Cthulhu, you really don’t know anything.” Thank you for your kind words. Really helpful for the discussion.
“If you have indeed read the entire bible, you have either forgotten a lot about if, or you didn’t understand it (or you are lying).” My words “In the Bible the New Testament (words of Jesus) contradict the savagery advocated by the Old Testament god” are correct. He spoke of forgiving enemies for instance (though he also threatened hell after death which does not imply benevolence for those who won’t worship him). However, I agree that Jesus did also say that he ‘upheld’ the Old Testament that is true (yes the Bible contains contradictions who would have thought it …).
“You’re wrong. You obviously haven’t read the bible, or you’d know this.” I have read the whole of the Bible – whether or not you wish to label me a liar or (twice) label me a bigot. However, it was 35 years ago. Perhaps Caine should stop all the name-calling and also stop being totally selective about the New Testament. Even Dawkins has recognised that Jesus (though not Paul) was something of an improvement – not difficult – compared to the Old Testament god (which Dawkins accurately described in The God Delusion). But if Caine is implying that part of Christianity is a wish to be truthful as far as possible (unlike creationist fundamentalist science deniers which I never was and the UK is largely free of them) then yes I have not left that bit of it behind.
Please tell me how I have ‘defended’ the Christian god in this discussion.
If you can.
PS I am the SAME person who is currently posting here:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4582953863643137208&postID=2067864150415865024&page=1&token=1430081516648
http://worldviewwarriors.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/a-clash-of-worldviews.html
The young earth creationists don’t think I am defending either the Christian god or the Bible …
It’s quaint how ashley thinks that gays have it oh-so-easy simply because Christians are advocating separate but equal status for them. And some advocate stoning. Others try to place the blame for negative events (much like any disparaged group in history.)
Christians are exactly as evil in all the same ways, they just have had their fangs removed so they can only splash their venom rather than inject it directly into society. Except the venom is still just as potent and dangerous and will often lead to harm. If you don’t think that the anti-gay bigotry of the Christian Right in the USA plays a role in how gay people are abused, beaten, raped, by such Jesus-enlightened folks, then you know fuck all and need to shut the fuck up.
“It’s quaint how ashley thinks that gays have it oh-so-easy simply because Christians are advocating separate but equal status for them.” Please stop LYING and putting words into my mouth.
You should also note that I have just flagged this thread to some young earth creationists so – if they look at it – they will now see that they are not the only liars in America (I’m in the UK).
I do realise that many Christians in the US are appalling – but not all Christians are appalling (even if the biblical god is pretty appalling).
Throwaway @ 88:
It would seem that Ashley has their head firmly lodged up the ol’ dilberry-maker.
Some of you are worse than the young earth creationists.
My latest post here may be of interest:
http://forums.bcseweb.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=3153&start=615
Is the implication supposed to be that all Muslims are any different? Or what is your point supposed to be anymore?
@ashley:
Worse in what sense?
if you mean that some of us are “worse” in the sense of not tolerating foolishness, yes. Young earth creationists do indeed tolerate much more foolishness.
If you mean “worse” in terms of number of typos per 100 typed characters, I invite you to establish that.
If you mean “worse” in terms of oxygen consumption per brain, I have no idea.
Perhaps you might clarify a little.
Ashley, nobody here gives a flying fuck about your arguments on other forums. The fact that you argue against creationists elsewhere isn’t going to get you a cookie, or a pass on your bullshit here.
Also: this is a rude blog. Stop whining about people’s tone or whether their comments are “helpful” or not.
I would want to ask him exactly what I did that earns me eternity in hell. I’ve never been able to grasp that one.
Like I said – some of you are worse than the creationists. For being rude and for falsely attacking people you do not even know.
ashley @97
You’re objecting to us demanding you backup your claims with evidence. That’s not a creationist motif. We don’t lie about what others say. Which is a creationist motif. Your comparison between us and creationists is basically a poor attempt to insult us. Sorry, not buying it.
As has already been noted, this is a fucking rude blog. Learn to deal with it or leave, your choice.
You’re correct, we don’t know you. All we have to go by is what you’ve written. You’re being criticized for your claims and your failure to provide evidence to support those claims.
ashley @ 97
Like saying things like “many fundamentalist Muslims are evil in a way that fundamentalist Christians seldom are”? That sort of rudeness? Those false attacks on people you don’t even know?
I was falsely accused of ‘defending’ the Christian god. I have convinced the YEC Charlie Wolcott that I was NOT doing that. If you don’t like that – TOUGH. Read this – unless you are an evidence denier:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4582953863643137208&postID=2067864150415865024&page=1&token=1430099041830
So Muslim beheadings are not evil, then? (Would beheadings by Christians be evil?)
@ashley:
Well! I take it as a good thing that we don’t **actually** attack people.
I wish more of the current actual murders and rapes were false murders and rapes.
What does knowing you have to do with it? If we have integrity, we would make the same criticisms of your words and ideas regardless of who presents them.
Knowing you better might change the **form** of the criticism. But if we have integrity it shouldn’t change the **content** of the criticism.
Are you saying that when you know someone you don’t criticize them? Because that’s downright cliquish.
Actually, no, you weren’t. You invented that accusation because your feeble brain couldn’t comprehend why Caine was criticizing you, so you speculated that was the reason.
@ashley, #100:
Great Grassy I am Groot!
No one here is contending beheadings are non-evil…ever. Much less non-evil when performed by members of one religious group but evil when performed by another.
YOU put forward the idea that the god of the Koran is more bad/horrible/evil or just unpleasant than the god of the Christian bible.
Other people have contested this – strongly.
I don’t know why you would even care to argue such a thing when you haven’t read the Koran, but when you point to the deeds of believers to prove the evil of a book, it’s perfectly fair game to point out the deeds of believers in the other book to show the absurdity of your argument.
This is not an attempt to show Christianity is more evil than Islam or that the violence of muslims isn’t bad/wrong/evil/unpleasant.
it’s an attempt to show that you don’t know what you’re talking about when you say that the god of one book is more unpleasant than the god of another book.
And, frankly, I think people here have done that rather well.
So unless you’ve got more to go on than 9/11 is more recent than smallpox blankets, maybe you ought to retire your assertion.
Then don’t say stuff that will be called out. You need to check your own beliefs. You don’t appear to be communicating them well, if at all.
This is by far the most absurd apologist for Christianity ever. Or wait, maybe not an exact apologist for Christianity. About the only point I can see they’re trying to make is that – DUN-DUN-DUN! – Islam is EEeEEEEEeeEEvil! Or the god of the Koran (which they have not read yet) is more evil than the god in the book which they have read. How do they know this? Perhaps being a fan of Dawkins has gifted them with the insight to determine, among other things, how not all sexual abuse occur on the same level and thus some are simply innocent gropings where no harm is done (*gag*), or how, since gays aren’t getting their heads cut off, the bigotry they face in other parts of the world indicate that Christianity is more refined and civilized than Islam.
ashley,
What do you expect people to think when you say these things:
The first one is just not true.
What are you implying by the second one?
Why would you even say the third one. Who here has said it’s not evil when a Muslim beheads someone?
Hell, for certain values of “refined” or “civilized” that might even be true (though other values of “refined” and “civilized” certainly exist that give the opposite results).
But the hell of it is, ashley actually argued that the god of the koran is more unpleasant than the god of the bible – and, sorry, but that shit doesn’t change. You may convince the Pope someday that little kids shouldn’t be sexually violated and stopping his own underlings from doing such things should be higher on his priority list than stopping non-Christian people from having sex. That doesn’t mean that Yahweh **deliberately choosing to harden Pharoah’s heart against Pharoah’s own will so that Yahweh has an excuse to send the angel of death all over egypt** is any less “unpleasant”.
And then, knowing that not having read the Koran limits the ability to actually compare god-characters, Ashley decides that the evil done by muslims in this particular historical moment says something existentially profound about the two god-characters themselves. Yeesh.
Ashley’s argument is just…bizarre.
Beheadings are evil. Blowing up groups of people with drones is…somehow…less? evil? Why are we even trying to rank evil?
This is a form of logic with which I am not familiar.
ScreechyMonkey is lying at post 102. Caine said at post 68: “If you were attempting to make [the xian] god look better, by claiming that other god to be worse, it didn’t (and doesn’t) work” and he also accused me of bigotry. He has not denied accusing me of defending the Christian god. And then at post 84 he wrote: “At any rate, you are trying to defend christianity and the christian god, holding up Islam as a religion of horrible, awful people…”. That comment is not even logical – is it only Christians who criticise murderous Muslim fanatics (my expression was ‘fundamentalist Muslims’)?
I have already demonstrated that I was NOT doing what Caine falsely accused me of – Liar.
I have no problem with rudeness or pointless aggression, but I absolutely hate lying – whether from creationists (about science etc) or from atheists such as some on this thread about people they have never even met (thankfully) but whose words they wish to twist or whose arguments they wish to falsely claim as at post 102 were ‘invented’ rather than genuine.
Ashley has problems understanding the word ‘if’, and the idea that if someone says “if you were trying to do X, you failed” that is NOT the person saying “OMG YUR DOING X.” However, if you continue to display behaviour x… well, if the shoe fits. You said Yaweh is better than Allah; that Allah is more of a monster. You are attempting here to defend the christian god. This does not mean we think you’re religious. One can defend fictional characters and their personalities, after all. But it doesn’t change the fact that there’s defending going on.
The second comment quoted IS logical. You said, after all, that not all christians are horrible people even if their god is horrible… and left it hanging, flapping in the breeze, but technically ‘unsaid,’ that there’s no such group of not-horrible muslims. But your phrasing heavily implied it, even if that wasn’t your intent.
Oh, poor ashley. So offended because someone assumed they were attempting to make the Christian God look better by it comparing it to the Muslim God (that happens to be same fucking character, but who cares about that little detail). It just so happens that ashley would never defend the Christian God! Such a hideous accusation! It is clear that her only actual point was to talk about how much worse Islam is! Which is not an issue at all, and is completely beyond rebuke!
Oh, the lying liars. Oh, the liars, lying. Lyingly lying, the liars do. When the lie about how ashley is a Christian apologist demonizing Muslims, when she is just an Islamophobe, demonizing Muslims! Ethics in Bigotry Labeling!!!
“This is by far the most absurd apologist for Christianity ever …”. Most of you people seem to be paranoid. I was NOT, I repeat NOT, being a ‘Christian apologist’.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4582953863643137208&postID=2067864150415865024 (creationist Christian blog)
“And don’t worry about being mistaken for an atheist pretending to be a Christian. You’ve done a fine job at ruling out that option.” (post 22 by YEC Charlie Wolcott – though of course the idiot MEANT to type “Christian pretending to be an atheist”)
“Who here has said it’s not evil when a Muslim beheads someone”. It was strongly implied at post 99 which I think you should re-read (on the grounds that I do not ‘know’ the Muslims who have done this recently so therefore I was somehow making ‘false attacks’ on them).
I have already admitted above that I have not read the Koran – nor have some of you (though I have heard some in the US and elsewhere – often right wing Christians – call Islam an ‘evil religion’ and I assumed that the Koran might be partly though not wholly responsible for the islamist evil seen in 2001 and 2014 in particular). Can we leave it at that?
You were making false attacks by attacking muslims AS A WHOLE. By saying that there are *some* christians who are not terrible, implying that there are NO muslims who are NOT terrible. Because my muslim friend certainly hasn’t gone around beheading anyone or being a terrible person, and yet you are attacking him.
I have seen this style of combat before. It is a complex and sophisticated art, the combination of two classical masters of the battlefield. It is tilting at windmills and then, when somehow when one loses a limb or four in the ensuing clash, insisting that one has not yet lost and continuing the battle. I believe the style was first perfected by Brave Sir Nugent of the Land of Ire.
I am now about to unsubscribe from any further emails about new comments in this thread.
So I will not even see any further lies that might be posted about me – or silliness such as that at post 111 (I am male incidentally – and not in the US where the name is normally female either).
Life is too short to argue with (mostly) bigoted liars – it’s much more profitable and interesting to deal with lying young earth creationists. Good Bye.
“You were making false attacks by attacking muslims.”
That is another LIE. I used the phrase ‘fundamentalist Muslims’. And I was referring to those who had committed beheadings.
Good Bye and Good Riddance.
99 by Mellow Monkey, a post saying that Muslims are not uniquely evil, a post explicitly about not accepting the claim that Muslims are evil in a way that Christians aren’t, is proof that people are saying that Muslims beheading people is not evil?
Ashley, you don’t do logic well. Just step away from the blog. Try again some other day.
And, now that I read your most recent, sorry for misgendering you, ashley. Should have known better, since my father’s middle name is actually Ashley. Guess I should take my own advice. I will try another day as well.
ashley
I missed your whole performance-art thing
but
bless your heart, anyway.
Ashley @112:
So, based on slurs by right wing Christians — many of whom you acknowledge are liars — you assumed the contents of a book you haven’t read and proceeded to argue that it was “worse” than another book?
Stick to arguing with creationists, you aren’t ready for the big leagues yet.
What a pointless silly sideshow that was, ashley. Stick the flounce.
Someone misguidedly stumbled onto the comment section of this blog, makes a statement along the lines of “Islam’s god much worse because … no reason, IDK, haven’t read the book. But yeah, that Christian god isn’t so bad because of Jesus and Dawkins agrees with me.”
It is to laugh.
Ashley @ 112
I had this particular friend in college who was Muslim. Do you know what I heard from her? Stories of cowering as Christian bombs rained down from the sky. Just an innocent kid, living her life, fearing death at the hands of the “civilized” Christian west. She was a perfectly ordinary person, just trying to get her education and have fun, like so many other young women in college.
And when my cousin heard this young woman’s story, do you know what the response was? “I can’t believe they’ve been let into this country. We should kill them all. Nuke the desert to glass. Even a baby rattlesnake will grow up to be a rattlesnake.” Because, you see, calling someone else “evil” is a really great, easy way to justify doing any unspeakable act you like to them.
So don’t tell me Muslims have some sort of monopoly on awfulness, some special claim to it that Christians lack. Yes, beheadings are a visceral horror, but there are plenty of other horrors in the world.
ashley @115:
Why did you feel the need to announce this?
Aah but it’s important for your regular tone troll to imagine xe has won. It’s the equivalent of moderating out differing opinions in your own blog.
Tony, it’s an advanced flouncing technique. Not only are you announcing that you will not post again, but you declare that you’re not even going to read anything anyone else says, thereby giving you the last word.
Aw, why do I miss all the fun?
Ashley accuses people of lying about them left and right, but the first chance they get they reply with “When did you stop beating your wife?*”. Classy
* no, I’m not accusing you of literally writing those words in a comment. I’m implying that’s the rhetorical tool you used with the sudden accusation that people think Muslims beheading people is ok.
Christian fundamentalists were beheading people centuries before Islam even existed.
When given the opportunity to do so, they have not hesitated to use murderous violence – remember Dr. Tilley?
Given their rhetoric, is there any doubt whatsoever that today’s Christian Fundamentalists wouldn’t engage in more such murderous violence, if it were not for the presence of the secular society that surrounds them that limits, at least to some degree, their ability and opportunity to do so?
Though their weapon of choice might be a rifle bullet rather than a knife?
It is fallacious and dishonest to engage in such a comparison while ignoring these differences in opportunity.
@ Amphiox: Just a minor correction, that’s Dr. George Tiller.
Waaaaay behind on the conversation, but torosoba #16:
I’m not sure any of those statements automatically discount it from being a real Christian page. Sure, it could be a Poe; but “could” doesn’t mean “is”, and frankly I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it was real.
Since I have offered sacrifices to the Aesir and Vanir, I am set. El/Jahwe can bring it up with them if he wants a cut.
Incidentally, I offered the sacrifices ( 2 X Big Mac) the way the Jews did, as in giving it to the priesthood to later consume the meat of the sacrifice.
Since there are no priests around for the Norse gods in my town, I had to play that role myself.
All of this is above board, according to the logic of Old Testament religion.
I bailed early. Ashley was too dumb and ignorant to bother with.
1. The preferred murder method of xians is the biblical stoning or burning people alive on stacks of firewood. The burning to death combines torture with murder and public entertainment. It makes beheading look good, a difficult achievement.
2. There are any number of US fundie xian leaders calling for the death of one group or another.
These days it is the gays usually. But they have To Kill lists. Just about everyone is on one or another of them. Their main philosopher, Rousa Rushdoony was a mass murdering psychopath. His list has 99% of the US population dying.
3. The largest xian atrocity wasn’t even that long ago. The Holocaust. This was a pure xian production start to finish. Antisemitism starts in the bible NT. The plan was first drawn up by Martin Luther. The leaders and killers were all Catholics and Lutherans.
The actual murder squads, the SS didn’t even allow atheists to join because Himmler didn’t like atheists.
@raven #131: What a day for an auto-de-fé!
God as portrayed in the Bible, and by a lot of christians, is a monster not worthy of worship.
However, I’ll be 100% honest here. If I found out god existed and that god would send me to burn forever in hell fire unless I begged for forgiveness, I’d swallow every ounce of pride and do absolutely everything, including murder, to avoid it. Fortunately, that’s not the world we live in. For finite duration torture, I wouldn’t go to such lengths. It’s the infinity of it all, the fact that I know as an absolute fact that I’d hate every single innocent person, and hate them FOR their innocence, after some amount of time, would be what made me do it.