Ready to lose a few brain cells? You won’t need them, apparently


synapse

Michael Egnor, neurosurgeon, has made a bizarre post in which he reveals that he knows nothing about how the brains he cuts up work. Egnor claims that it is impossible for the brain to store memories. Yes, he knows that neural damage can cause loss of memory, that certain delicate areas of the brain, if harmed, can destroy the ability to make new memories, and he waves those awkward facts away to announce that there is simply no way memory or information of any kind can be stored in a meat-organ like a brain. He doesn’t say where memories are kept, then, nor does he account for any of the physiological correlates of memory, nor does he seem to give a damn about any of the neuroscience experiments that have teased apart the underlying molecular mechanism. By pure reason alone, if we can call his argument a product of reason at all, he deduces that the brain could not possibly have any way of storing memories.

His first argument is by cock-eyed definition.

It’s helpful to begin by considering what memory is — memory is retained knowledge. Knowledge is the set of true propositions. Note that neither memory nor knowledge nor propositions are inherently physical. They are psychological entities, not physical things. Certainly memories aren’t little packets of protein or lipid stuffed into a handy gyrus, ready for retrieval when needed for the math quiz.

The brain is a physical thing. A memory is a psychological thing. A psychological thing obviously can’t be “stored” in the same way a physical thing can. It’s not clear how the term “store” could even apply to a psychological thing.

So his first argument consists of defining memory as a certain category of thing, and then asserting that that particular category is obviously incapable of being represented in a physical matrix. How does he know this? It suits his thesis, so he simply insists on it.

But if memory is patterned activity in the brain, then of course that pattern can have a physical cause: the spatial arrangement of axons and dendrites, the localization of proteins at synapses, subtle changes in synaptic boutons that modify their electrical properties.

For example, Eric Kandel won a Nobel (with Carlsson and Greengard) in 2000 for figuring out how memories are stored in Aplysia.

Eric Kandel, Center for Neurobiology and Behavior, Columbia University, New York, is rewarded for his discoveries of how the efficiency of synapses can be modified, and which molecular mechanisms that take part. With the nervous system of a sea slug as experimental model he has demonstrated how changes of synaptic function are central for learning and memory. Protein phosphorylation in synapses plays an important role for the generation of a form of short term memory. For the development of a long term memory a change in protein synthesis is also required, which can lead to alterations in shape and function of the synapse.

Aplysia can learn to associate a touch with an unpleasant stimulus, and will remember that association when touched in the future, which is a psychological thing. We know how that psychological thing is stored in the brain of Aplysia, as changes in the strength of synapses. Egnor is therefore refuted on his first claim.

His second argument has to be seen to be believed. Here he is talking about a memory of your grandmother, and how you recall it.

As you try to remember Nana’s face, you must then locate the engram of the memory, which of course requires that you (unconsciously) must remember where in your brain Nana’s face engram is stored — was it the superior temporal gyrus or the middle temporal gyrus? Was it the left temporal lobe or the right temporal lobe? So this retrieval of the Nana memory via the engram requires another memory (call it the “Nana engram location memory”), which must itself be encoded somewhere in your brain. To access the memory for the location of the engram of Nana, you must access a memory for the engram for the location for the engram of Nana. And obviously you must first remember the location of the Nana engram location memory, which presupposes another engram whose location must be remembered. Ad infinitum.

He lapses immediately into dualist assumptions. There is a separate you from your brain, which has to go searching through the brain like a garbage picker rummaging through the rubbish bins to find that portrait of Nana. But that’s clearly not how it works. There is no external entity that has to trace through a series of memory locations — memory is a set of invoked associations. It’s you. There isn’t a homonculus somewhere rifling through the stacks of memories, but instead, those memories are part of the youness of you, and triggering that pattern of activity is part of the consciousness being expressed by your brain…that is, your mind.

This imaginary engram search story only makes sense if you assume dualism and that memory is co-dependent on finding a memory in a disorganized heap, and as Egnor points out, it doesn’t work. By his own reasoning, his model fails.

It’s bizarre that a neurosurgeon would have such medieval ideas about how the brain works, while simultaneously being aware that making a mistake with the organ under his knife can directly affect memory, behavior, personality, and health. But then, neurosurgeon does not mean neuroscientist, as he clearly demonstrates.

I suspect that these silly ideas of his are a product of a fear of mortality. If the mind is a product of the brain, when the brain dies, the mind dies, too; there is no afterlife. As a surgeon who probably deals with patients with serious deficits in their brain caused by stroke or disease, the dependency of self-identity on the physical structure of the brain has to be made glaringly obvious to him with depressing regularity, so he has developed this myth to cope. There must be a Magical Spiritual Essence that is working through the meat in your head to produce you, so even when disaster reduces a person to having the cognitive capacity of a carrot, it just means the Magical Spiritual Essence is blocked from pulling the strings on your corporeal puppet…but have no fear, it’s still there, and when it finally gives up on your flesh it’ll be able to flit up to Heaven and join Nana and Sparky, your childhood puppy, and all will be well.

Comments

  1. Owlmirror says

    Will the photons transmit the information to his DNA, pushing him to change (the page)?

  2. Christopher says

    Since it is a new page, I’ll repeat the questions I have:

    What are the measuring instruments that quantify processes that your theory covers? What units does it measure in?

    Where is the math that defines your theory?

  3. Rowan vet-tech says

  4. Owlmirror says

    To Sean, we need remember only a thing:
     
    1) It is not possible that the world had a beginning. It is not rational. From nothing can not have beginings.
     
    2) It is not possible that the world had no beginning. It is not rational.
     
    3) Our little brains can not grasp a third alternative.

    Actually, Sean Carroll is a cosmologist, and as such, his brain regularly grasps various alternative models of the universe, some of which are eternal, and some of which are not. If you ever read up on the science of cosmology, you would know this.

    And indeed, Sean Carroll has written From Eternity to Here, a popular-level book that explains time, entropy, fundamental physics, and cosmological models. Can your little brain grasp it?

  5. Ichthyic says

    Imagine a tiny intelligent particle living inside a proton inside an atom inside a cell that composes the human skeleton.

    Not a microbe then? so much for Microbe Youtube :(

    This microbe believe that had learned the basic natural laws governing his little world which last frontiers is the human skin.

    OH YAY! MICROBES ARE BACK!

    WE *heart* U MICROBE!

  6. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Matrix/DNA Theory has discovered that beyond the building block for astronomical systems,

    It has discovered nothing but your mental masturbations. You have no evidence, and your word alone is worthless.

    If so, there is no photon identical to any other, like there is no human identical to another.

    This is a factual claim, that is dismissed without evidence, negating your theory, unless you provide a citation from the peer reviewed scientific literature to back it up. You know, the journals that are found in places like this, scientific libraries at institutions of higher learning world wide. You can’t think facts true, but must evidence them from other sources.

  7. says

    Owlmirror
    8 January 2015 at 11:12 pm
    Louis: This world is same way, our Science has moving inside the galaxies as the Universe’s skeleton, it is missing almost everything, and the most complex things for to know, yet.

    A Owl in the Mirror: None of this contradicts Sean Carroll’s basic point. The laws underlying the physics of everyday life — including how photons interact with atoms — are completely understood. There is no way for quarks to be intelligent, and there is no way for photons to magically convey more information than they already do.

    Nope. There are the hierarchy of systems, allways down and up. The “laws” ( it is not laws, but… natural forces) underlying ours biosphere and bodies as system that Sean is talking about are the forces coming from systems below us. He forget or have no intuition about the forces coming from systems above us. It is chemical reactions and atoms ions, charges, etc., that operates basics and automatic cells functions, but it is the soft meat that feeds or causes mutations, alterations in cells, and it is the mind that moves the cells in space, when driven the whole body. You see the chemical movements inside cells, but you don’t see, for instance, the forces that cames from the body as system that makes alterations in the chemical reactions and turns on a cell a cancerous suicide.

    Like you can see an arab man and thinking that you knows him because he is a human being and you knows human beings. But, suddenly, against all reasoning from yours knowledge about humans as evolved animals, the man surprises you and explodes himself as suicide-bomber. There are no underlying physics laws explaining why a body-system has that behavior affecting everyday life. There is an invisible bigger system acting over that body-system, called doctrine or religion and it comes from a superior system, the human mind.

    Everyday NASA is capturing images from deep space that seems weird, as the recently “pillars of construction”. People see that images and makes post “Oh… beautiful! wonderful!”. It is what would happens to ours skeletons’ inside intelligent particles when observing things beyond the skeleton first time… Slowly we will go composing those images and seeing larger pictures of parts of a bigger system.

    Matrix/DNA Theory is not suggesting that the universe’s body is composed by skeleton, soft meat and mind. Of course… when you see the space you are observing the past, the world of ours ancestors. Which evolution arrived to the skeleton and suffered a mutation for continuing through out microscopical biological systems the evolution to soft meat The Matrix is suggesting that we are seeing the space as a microbe inside the egg should see the blastula. Beyond the egg is the mothers’ body and its own species, which Physicists and Mathematicians have no clues about … But, applying our intelligence, elaborating rational calculations and theories like Matrix/DNA, we are beginning to grasp something from there…

    There is no way for quarks to be intelligent, and there is no way for photons to magically convey more information than they already do.

    Of course, quarks are not intelligent and photons does not do magics. Who told such absurdities?

    No, it’s a nonsense-stopper and a science-promoter.

    Yes, it is clearly that this cosmological world view built by Physics and Math, without the concourse of Biology, Neurology, etc., works as science-stopper. Any natural systems has several dimensions as levels of matter organization and they are affected by systems above the limits reached by Physics. When any intelligent life goes in a wrong way, believing in a doctrine, it merely and only see the aspects of a system or natural phenomena related to its doctrine. This “intelligence” searches in Nature only the aspects that fits inside its world view, and develops tools for searching these aspects, and creates a technology based and limited to these aspects. But… included String or M-Theory is suggesting till 11 dimensions…

    We have as creator a machine. Does not refute it, It would be not rational. Lift up yours eyes, and see it. Does not create mystical ideas from magical thinking putting magician randomness between us and ours creator. Earth belongs to this machine, it is merely a part of it, there would be no life without the energy from sun’s radiation and cosmic radiation. This machine was well described by Newtonian mechanics. But the solar system that seems working as a watch is not the whole history. Above it, and forming it, surrounding it, there is a most spectacular machine, called “galaxie”. From it is coming cosmic radiation that affects the sun and our lives here also. Go to matrix/DNA formula and see how works this machine. It is the most perfect naturally possible perpetuum motor. It has hidden all mechanisms and processes that evolved into life’s properties. If you not see them there, ask that I will show to you.

    So, this “machine” created this biosphere, included humans beings, as an effort to reproduce itself, in a biological fashion. So, we are driven by the world surrounding as and at same time, encrypted into our genetics, for to be part of a machine. Limiting human sciences to Physics and Math and leaving to them the job for a Theory of Everything, we are obeying the destiny to be part of a machine. This is the real natural Matrix. Physics and math alone is going to jail, to kill, this new baby arising from our brains, called “mind”, or consciousness. We need to know our enemy, for getting freedom from it. We can save our freedom of mind and escaping from the machine, conquering the Cosmos. But, if people think like Sean Carrol… we will stop the search for a different super-science and never will go out from this planet… Welcome to the Brave New World under the rules of the Orwellian Big Queen… and Humanity will be slave forever…

  8. Owlmirror says

    You see the chemical movements inside cells, but you don’t see, for instance, the forces that cames from the body as system that makes alterations in the chemical reactions and turns on a cell a cancerous suicide.

    No “forces” came from the body as a system. Presumably you mean that the body moved to an environment where there were more carcinogens, or something like that?

    There’s nothing going on there that does not follow from the known laws of physics.

    There is an invisible bigger system acting over that body-system, called doctrine or religion and it comes from a superior system, the human mind.

    Just because we cannot use the laws of physics to deduce the mind and its contents does not mean that the mind and its contents are in any way in violation of the laws of physics.

    The mind is what a functioning brain is doing; ultimately, the brain is a physical system operating under physical laws.

    Of course, quarks are not intelligent and photons does not do magics. Who told such absurdities?

    You did. Imagine a tiny intelligent particle living inside a proton. Protons are composed of 3 quarks, so a particle inside a proton would be a quark.

    Also: These photons-bits penetrates terrestrial atoms till reaching its particles, then, they get the control of the atom machinery, driving them to new kind of atomic connections.

    Or in other words, photons are magic.

    Physics and math alone is going to jail, to kill, this new baby arising from our brains, called “mind”, or consciousness.

    No. They’re just going to stop the confused ideas that mind, or consciousness, works in ways that it cannot physically work.

    Writing all these words on the Internet is not going to change that. The only thing that will bring actual change is showing an empirical experiment that demonstrates that the laws of physics of everyday life are not completely understood.

    we will stop the search for a different super-science and never will go out from this planet… Welcome to the Brave New World under the rules of the Orwellian Big Queen… and Humanity will be slave forever…

    How is that supposed to work, anyway? How does the laws of physics of everyday life being completely understood lead to Brave New World?

  9. says

    Christopher
    9 January 2015 at 12:32 am
    Where is the math that defines your theory?

    What is the Math that defines DNA? Same for Matrix/DNA. Who told you that Math is a language that translate Nature beyond the skeletons of any natural system? When really begins complexity, like the DNA?

    What is the Math for Evolution? Matrix/DNA is about Universal Evolution – the unique existent theory that linked so well Cosmological and Biological evolution, including showing the face of LUCA. Besides population there are no useful application for Math in evolutionary biology.

    But, for starting, take a sample how will be the new face of Math when entering into deeper dimensions. I am talking about the number Phi. Present at lots of details in Nature since when there is beauty due symmetry, till the 1,618033 hertz found in ELFRAD, people have believed that the Golden Ratio is signal of Intelligent Designer.

    Matrix/DNA discovered the secret behind Phi. But then you need see the Matrix/DNA formula for perfect closed systems at http://theuniversalmatrix.com/en-us/.

    Look to the formula and considers the whole spherical circuit as 1 ( one round). Take at the formula the universal systemic function F1, and again, follow the circuit clockwise till F4. It is the middle of the sphere, so you have 0,5. Added to 1 we have 1,5. Instead following the external circuit, take the lateral branch that returns to F1, which is the Function 5. Sops at the middle of this lateral branch and you will be at the center of the spiral formula and from F5 you advanced 0,18. Add to 1,5 you get 1,68… + Phi.

    But,,, why Phy? F4 is the systemic function responsible for the male function at any system. F5 is systemic function that leaves the code from the male to the female counterpart, which is F1. F5 when made biological systems was the creator of spermatozoons, RNA and ATP in cells systems, comets of astronomical systems, etc. It is the function for reproduction of systems. And it is the responsible for reproducing the left face of the Matrix formula into the right face. That’s when emerges symmetry. The left face is copied as the right face.

    Abiogenesis ( a wrong word, the right word should be “astronomical embryogenesis at liquid state of matter”) suggests that first was the RNA-world. Matrix/DNA agree with it. Because the Matrix formula – at any new situation – begins by F1 making the left side first so had the RNA and then, the flow of energy/information continued escaping from F4 modelling the surrounding atoms for composing the right copy. Then DNA was made. The “golden symmetry” is seen in the DNA also.

    At my website has alread about 13 articles/opened thesis collecting all data and studying several new aspects related to this phenomena called PHI, but, I had no time yet for developing it. As I had another articles where I began to search a way for translating the formula into Math, but no time yet.

    What are the measuring instruments that quantify processes that your theory covers? What units does it measure in?

    Oh… my Almighty Loved Lord PinkUnicorn!… These people wishes that we forget our pink universe and accept their black universe full of dark matter… No way…

    What are the measuring instruments that quantify processes related to the system human-body? What unit does it measure in? Then, pick up these instruments and applies them to all natural systems – after doing the superposition of the system upon the Matrix/DNA formula. Temperatures of flows ( lol… just now I am seeing that each protein must have a specific temperature different from all others proteins because proteins is the biological representative of the systemic external flow and this flow has its temperature changing when it advances).

    With Matrix/DNA Theory we will resuscitate the study of natural systems that was stopped since Bertalanffy about 50 or 70 years ago. And now we will begin with the most important data about natural systems: we have the universal formula for all them. It will be easy to isolate and identifying systems, as will be easy to identify parts, connections and functions of each part/piece. But we will need lots of new instruments and mathematicians will be busy trying to translate systems into Maths. I have had some incursions in this field but not time for advancing it… If you like Math… now it is yours time…

    By while, look again to Nature and experiment to appreciate natural beauty because now you know that there is no mysticism of the Golden Ratio, it is purely a natural mechanism.

  10. says

    Owlmirror
    9 January 2015 at 11:12 pm

    Louis: You see the chemical movements inside cells, but you don’t see, for instance, the forces that cames from the body as system that makes alterations in the chemical reactions and turns on a cell a cancerous suicide.

    Owlmirror: No “forces” came from the body as a system. Presumably you mean that the body moved to an environment where there were more carcinogens, or something like that? There’s nothing going on there that does not follow from the known laws of physics.

    Why not the known laws of physics has eliminated forever the cancer out of Humanity? I had no time yet to study these milenar diseases having as new approach the natural formula for systems, but only a briefly look to three of them ( parkinson, alzheimer, bad cholesterol) and it seems clear that they are systemic diseases, or, produced by the whole system human body ( and of course, the influences of the external world). Alzheimer for instance: the plaques formation around neurons is the same “plaque formations” around F1 in Matrix formula. It is the product of entropy – dust – that can not find a escape valve, or, the element responsible for cleaning the brain as system ( F7) is not working. It is the second law of thermodynamics at work, so, you are not totally wrong, it is about Physics also. At cells systems the element that makes the function of F7 is lysosomes ( and some vesicles), at astronomical systems it is dying stars, at the level of human body’s system F7 is executed by the liver. Which is the element representing F7 at the brain as a system? I had no time for searching it yet.

    See a sample how Matrix/DNA formula approach works at http://theuniversalmatrix.com/en-us/ – and see “The cycle of cholesterol and the Matrix/DNA formula”. Click on the image. Any natural systems is built taking several copies of a unique body and applying upon this body the process of life’s cycle ( which first manifestation was light waves). So, each body will be transformed into seven different shapes. Mixing all these bodies, each shape will connect with its neighbour, obeying the sequence of the cycle of life. Then, will be seven different shapes connected and since each shape performs a specific function, you have a new system, complete, with all seven universal functions. The cycle of cholesterol is merely a repetition, an application of this universal formula which you can see in the picture. So, all those chemical reactions transforming substances into new substances, means that an initial substance is rolling under the life’s cycle process.

    But… the matrix formula as a system can interacts with neighbour systems. The way that an atom connect with another atom by sharing one electron, the matrix formula do it also as building block of astronomical system, which needs sharing a star with a neighbour system, or, capturing a isolated star like electron. This star will send energy to the system at the location between F3 and F4, or directly over F4. Is the star that transforms a planet into a pulsar going to be a new star ( I am talking about first generation of solar systems, not the later generations). When we are focusing the cycle of cholesterol, the substance called HDL comes from outside the system performing the function of the external star/electron.

    But, when the cholesterol becomes bad cholesterol,HDL enters the system at a wrong position. Instead between F3 and F4, it arrives at F2. This alterates the system in a bad way. How to solve it? First we need to follow the pathway from where the HDL is coming. Maybe the problem is just at the HDL, Or is about the system from where it is coming. Maybe we will find that this system is sick ( it is different from the Matrix formula). What I am telling here is that these milenar diseases is due sub-systems connected to sub-systems and maybe involving the whole body as a system. I cant’s see how the knowledge of physical laws could help here. The Matrix formula do a better job.

    The great intellectual called Vaclav Havel ( The Czech ex- President) once time said: “We have known almost everything in a human body. We are able to go down to cells, atoms, particles, etc. But, something is missing yet, something too much important: we does not know the body as a whole working system”.

    And Matrix/DNA models are suggesting that these milenar and hereditary diseases are produced by the system, not something else. I am furious due I have no time for doing a deep research about this issue.

  11. says

    Owlmirror
    9 January 2015 at 11:12 pm

    Louis: There is an invisible bigger system acting over that body-system, called doctrine or religion and it comes from a superior system, the human mind.
    Owlmirror : Just because we cannot use the laws of physics to deduce the mind and its contents does not mean that the mind and its contents are in any way in violation of the laws of physics. The mind is what a functioning brain is doing; ultimately, the brain is a physical system operating under physical laws.

    It is not in violation, it is a novelty not existent at the level of skeleton’s Physics, which are known by humans. Natural laws evolves as everything else in Nature can do. So, it changes also. The emergence of moustache at a teenager is not a product of the teenager’s body, but from the teenager genes and inherited from his parents. So, the mind can be not a product of the brain as system, but from the DNA inside the neurons of the brain. Is that an absurd? Not for Matrix/DNA world view, which suggests that inside this Universe is occurring a genetic reproductive process. Reproduction of the system that produced this universe, be it another universe, or another thing. You know that at genetic process there are those “delayed” or later genes, like the sexual ones. Each gene has its time for intervening in the process of formation. So, if this universe is the place of a cosmological reproductive process, the informations/genes for developing the mind was all time in the Matrix/DNA formula, since the Big Bang. If so, we will need a new level of physical laws for explaining the mind, as we needed creating a whole new branch in Physics’ Science for dealing with quantum mechanics.

    The very fact is that we don’t know any single object in Nature while we can’t see the forces coming from hidden systems interacting with the system that the object belongs to.

  12. Christopher says

    What are the measuring instruments that quantify processes related to the system human-body? What unit does it measure in? Then, pick up these instruments and applies them to all natural systems

    I tried to measure the sun with my blood pressure cuff. It didn’t work.

    I tried to measure electron spin with a rectal thermometer. It didn’t work.

  13. says

    Rowan vet-tech
    9 January 2015 at 12:54 am
    I see a request for dragons… Moar dragons that thee can shaketh a LUCA at.

    The request for dragons came from Nerd. Please, send these images to him. Maybe he will identificate the species of the dragon he is seeing in his garage… And he will relax a little bit, because he is to much excited, furious ( see his posts charged with poisons coming from his soul… glup… I mean, from his dark world view.
    Hey, Nerd, what’s yours problem, man? Relax. I told you that our loved lord PinkUnicorn loves you also…

  14. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    The request for dragons came from Nerd.

    NOPE, not from me liar and bullshitter. For example:

    What is the Math that defines DNA? Same for Matrix/DNA. Who told you that Math is a language that translate Nature beyond the skeletons of any natural system? When really begins complexity, like the DNA?

    Sorry gibberish man, chemicals define DNA. No math involved.
    Still NO EVIDENCE FOR YOU CLAIM FROM THE PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE THAT ALL PHOTON ARE UNIQUE. By not evidencing this claim, you with your silence are acknowledging with prima facie evidence all you have is your blathering gibberish. Mental masturbation only, which will never replace or supplement science.
    Points at gibberish.
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
    Your ideas are being laughed at, as they should be. You have nothing but you illogical mental masturbations.

  15. says

    Christopher
    10 January 2015 at 10:44 am
    Louis: What are the measuring instruments that quantify processes related to the system human-body? What unit does it measure in? Then, pick up these instruments and applies them to all natural systems

    Christopher: I tried to measure the sun with my blood pressure cuff. It didn’t work.
    I tried to measure electron spin with a rectal thermometer. It didn’t work.

    Of course, it can’t work: you are measuring isolated objects instead measuring the whole system these objects ( sun, electron) belongs to. And you don’t know how to identify evolutionary co-relations for knowing which properties of the sun and electrons as ancestors had evolved into specific human body’ properties. For instance, spin of electrons came from the spins of quantum vortex and spinning was the first manifestations of this universal dualism we see at every place/time. Look to the wonderful Physics of the Nobel Prize Hideky Yukawa about the nuclear gluon and see it again based on Matrix/DNA formula, you will understand too much better Nature. Biological blood pressure is an evolutionary development coming from the homeostasis of astronomical systems. Take a spaceship leaving the cuff with you for measuring it…

  16. Ariaflame, BSc, BF, PhD says

    Photons are bosons, which means they can exist with the same quantum states. Which means you can have absolutely identical photons. Photons are therefore not unique. If you are claiming they are unique then you are making a claim that you have to prove with evidence. Which I am sure you don’t have, because you neither read nor understand actual science.

    Also, you are getting very boring with your repetitions of the same inane and worthless claims.

  17. says

    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
    10 January 2015 at 11:03 am

    Louis: What is the Math that defines DNA? Same for Matrix/DNA. Who told you that Math is a language that translate Nature beyond the skeletons of any natural system? When really begins complexity, like the DNA?
    Nerd: Sorry gibberish man, chemicals define DNA. No math involved.

    You are pretty right, Nerd ! It is the keyboard of Bill Gates’ computer that defines the software Windows, and not the Gates’ mind and fingers. Great, you are a very, very intelligent man!

    How I never thought it before?! I am stupid! Could not be Bill Gates the driver of a thing that belongs to the hardware of a machine, since that Hill Gates is not inside the hardware…
    Com’on Nerd, chemicals are not engineers developing softwares. For doing it you need a developed and complete natural system that has developed its own identity, like this galaxy you was made off, and who drove those chemicals for defining the DNA… ( Bwahhhhh… I wish,… I wish to buy the magical Bill’s keyboard…)

  18. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    For instance, spin of electrons came from the spins of quantum vortex and spinning was the first manifestations of this universal dualism we see at every place/time.

    Utter unevidenced gibberish, meaningless drivel except to a drug addled brain. Heard such shit back during the counter-cultural revolution during the ant-‘Nam war days.
    You have nothing (no citation to the peer reviewed scientific literature) to back up your claim. Your claim is dismissed as fuckwittery.
    The problem is that you claim anything you want without regard to what you can show with third party evidence. And you try to back you claims with more bullshit from you. And that is why you are laughed at.
    Literally, you need to take you out of evidencing your claims, except to point at third party sources. Until you do:
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHHA

  19. Christopher says

    Of course, it can’t work: you are measuring isolated objects instead measuring the whole system these objects ( sun, electron) belongs to.

    Then define the measuring instrument that would measure the whole system and the units that instrument uses.

    If you can’t measure the phenomena you are investigating you can’t model it. If you can’t measure or model the phenomena, then any opinion you have of why it operates the way it does is worthless and a waste of words, energy, and money. Your life’s work is a worthless waste of effort. You are pathetic.

  20. says

    Ariaflame, BSc, BF, PhD
    10 January 2015 at 11:17 am
    Photons are bosons, which means they can exist with the same quantum states. Which means you can have absolutely identical photons. Photons are therefore not unique. If you are claiming they are unique then you are making a claim that you have to prove with evidence. Which I am sure you don’t have, because you neither read nor understand actual science.
    Also, you are getting very boring with your repetitions of the same inane and worthless claims.

    My PinkUnicorn… there they are coming again and again, trying to pull me into metaphysics…

    Ariaflame, have you noticed that yours own body changes its energetic states ( charges) over time due yours body is rolling under the life’s cycle process? If so, why and how Nature produced this phenomena that you can see here and now? By magics? Or maybe, absolute randomness? Matrix/DNA theoretical models are suggesting that there are no magics and no accidents creating complexity. Everything here and now are product of universal evolution, which began with the quantum world, which was produced by entropy attacking the unknow natural system existent before this universe – but when you analyses this event, you discover that it was merely and pure genetics.

    Of course, different units of photons can exist with the same quantum states, as you said. There are millions of different units of human bodies just now with the same age ( let’s say: 20 years old), which means “they are at the same quantum state”. But when you says that “it means they are identical photons” and you have no scientific proof for it, you can be doing a big mistake (again, accordingly to Matrix/DNA models). Those apparently identical human bodies at the same age… you know… are not identical as packet of information. Some tiny detail between two bodies is different. And a unit of photon is ( accordingly to Matrix/DNA model) a whole light wave “nannotechnologized” like a whole human body can be “nannotechnologized” as a microscopical genome. So, photons are complex things in itself.

    So, what is “quantum states” of natural objects at “quantum theory or sub-atomic level” is, also, “quantum states of human bodies at biological level”. It is about the variations of energy: any system begins with increasing energy which reaches its high point and then, begins to decrease.

    I don’t like bringing on “quantum mechanics issues” to Matrix/DNA Theory because today it is a kind of “elite’s fashion” talking about quantica. Till Deepak Chopra is trying to relate consciousness with quantica issues, it is “chic” and leaves the listeners confused. I am waiting “quantica Science” furnishes more data for studying them by the Matrix/DNA approach. Quantum world’s weird news brings on metaphysics, and I can’t deal with metaphysics just now.

    Photons are not the priority just now when searching practical ways for applying Matrix/DNA formula ( although matrix/DNA formula is suggesting some experiments with photons related to molecular formations) . Photons were mentioned by me because the models of Matrix formula are suggesting that a projection of a whole astronomical system happens as “seeds of life”. Trying to know how could it happening, what natural mechanism was used, my calculations suggested that the unique element able to do it are photons, due the unique way an astronomical system could self-projecting itself should be in shape of fragmented bits due entropy, and by stellar radiation. If photons were those elements, it means that each photon was occupying a specific location/region of that star’s system, with a specific systemic function, and it was trained for doing that, what means it has an information encrypted in it, or, it was modelled by that information for the information to be a material tool working at organic level. But, the Matrix/DNA formula is a recent thing and only I am trying to interpret it, so, it is sure that I can do a lots of mistakes. But is not yours or mine opinion, neither the not enough knowledge about photons that could debunk my interpretation. It is only a real natural proved fact.

    You have not thought enough about our supposed initial “quantum vortexes”. If you do that, you will notice that all seven known natural forces are there, in a single primordial tornado popping out from “space’s vibrations”, and those forces evolved – in 13,7 billions years – to nowadays seven principals life’s properties. Tendency to spin left or right was the beginning of all subsequent dualisms, that produced for instance the dualism male/female, or hot/cold, etc. Now, take one unit of a dualistic group in shape of quantum vortex and see how works each spiral magnetic line. Each region of a vortex has a different tendency: to be “rectilinear or “curvilinear”, to be expansion or inertial, and so on. As each vortex has different levels of these forces, each quantum vortex is a specific unique bit-information, each one can be expressed by a number as 1,857460048576097847562…. Welcome to the origins of information in this world.

    Matrix/DNA suggests, for instance, an explanation for Heisenberg’s puzzle. The particle being measured is under the process of life’s cycle. Particles were our primordial ancestors, we have lots of details inherited from them, and life’s cycle is one of them. But while our lifetime takes 80 years, a particle makes everything equal in 17 “billionesims” of a second ( I don’t know the right English word here, you know it). Now, try to measure the velocity in time and volume/shape in space of a human body at same time. If you fix the properties of a human body related to space, you can NOT see and measure the velocity and age in relation to time. And vice-versa. Only a observer that has the same lifetime of a particle could do it.

    It is so easy understanding quantum mechanics puzzles… when you not separate arbitrarily our past from our present, fitting the void between them with mystical gods or magic randomness…

  21. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Ariaflame, have you noticed that yours own body changes its energetic states ( charges) over time due yours body is rolling under the life’s cycle process?

    Nope, it doesn’t. The energy states of light are quantum in nature, an organism is too big to have an features of quantum. So, where the fuck is your evidence for “engergetic states” in an object the size of human body?
    Nothing, I know.
    Points at post
    BWAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHA

  22. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    It is so easy understanding quantum mechanics puzzles… when you not separate arbitrarily our past from our present, fitting the void between them with mystical gods or magic randomness…

    Yet that is what you do. Fit the in between with your mystical matrix that doesn’t exist, as you haven’t succeeded in evidencing it from sources outside of yourself. Only cranks and fools keep everything to themselves.
    Points at crank’s gibberish
    BWHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  23. Thomas Guiot says

    I wonder if believing in dualism makes his job easier… I mean, if he makes a mistake and the patient dies, his mind is still alive somehow so he’s not really really dead…

  24. says

    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
    10 January 2015 at 1:47 pm

    Louis: Ariaflame, have you noticed that yours own body changes its energetic states ( charges) over time due yours body is rolling under the life’s cycle process?

    Nerd: Nope, it doesn’t. The energy states of light are quantum in nature, an organism is too big to have an features of quantum. So, where the fuck is your evidence for “engergetic states” in an object the size of human body?
    Nothing, I know.
    Points at post
    BWAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHA

    So, in yours land babies are retired and walks slowly while seniors are full of energy playing all time… Well… as you said, you are seeing dragons in yours garage… You believe that babies does not show that in the beginning always energy increase and seniors shows that at the end, energy decreases. In middle time, energy is changing all time. There is no natural system without vital cycle force and no vital cycles without energy variation, Mr. Nerd. I have searched in all Universe and never found one. But, in yours academic university ans “scientific team” it is forbidden making comparisons between humans-bodies-systems with other natural systems like atoms and galaxies and see effects of thermodynamic issues like entropy attacking a brain and causing Alzheimer… You have separated the world in blocks without connections among them because if you don’t do that, where do you will find place for yours magicals randomness and the Nothing that produces everything?
    Points at post. The Matrix has caught you, again… BWAHAHAHAHHA

  25. says

    Thomas Guiot
    13 January 2015 at 10:48 am
    I wonder if believing in dualism makes his job easier… I mean, if he makes a mistake and the patient dies, his mind is still alive somehow so he’s not really really dead…

    The Matrix/DNA Theory explains everything existent -from the Big Bang to any natural phenomena seen here and now applying a unique logical line: there is no evolution, there is universal reproduction and every event of reproduction is made off evolutionary micro-steps. It is not human’s opinion that will debunk this Universal Natural History described by Matrix/DNA but any real natural know phenomena or event. I challenge you bring it on the table. I would be grateful because I want and I need the Thru, and I don’t earn nothing trying to prove a wrong theory.

    But… several structures and events in this Natural Universal History are suggesting that natural systems are composed by a dualism – like software and hardware- and “evolution” advances due the feed-back between software and hardware – like we have developed our computers. Everytime that any natural system selected for the cosmological trunk’s tree, it adquire an entity ( the sum of information of all parts plus the information from connections or fuzzy logics) which is the link between the prior systems and the follow system. This systems’ entity are under evolution and it works like a software.

    This software/hardware aspect was discovered not because I was believing in “minds alive after death”, as you said), but was the unique logical explanation for explaining how a entire astronomical system was nannotechnolized and inserted into a lateral pair of nucleotide. It was merely an event of genetic transmission process, but for it happens, only software could do it. Of course, the natural software is made off “living bits”and instead 2 digits like our computers it has at least seven variables – which you can see in Matrix/DNA formula as “universal systemic functions”.

    The dualism is this: if there is something hot is because there is something cold, if male, there is male… if there is systems’ hardware, there is system’s software. The problem is that human sciences does not know yet what is a natural system and always is thinking that processes are systems…

  26. says

    Christopher
    10 January 2015 at 11:46 am
    Louis: – Of course, it can’t work: you are measuring isolated objects instead measuring the whole system these objects ( sun, electron) belongs to.

    Christopher: – Then define the measuring instrument that would measure the whole system and the units that instrument uses. If you can’t measure the phenomena you are investigating you can’t model it. If you can’t measure or model the phenomena, then any opinion you have of why it operates the way it does is worthless and a waste of words, energy, and money. “

    My good PinkUnicorn!!! Christopher, the unit of measurement of all natural systems is here: the Matrix/DNA formula for a perfect closed system. It is enough for telling everything about any system you have at hands. Draw the system in a paper and put it upon the Matrix formula/diagram. You will identificate which part has which function, you will know if the system is working well or not and where is the problem, etc. And not only systems – you can do the same thing with any cycle in Nature, like the cycle of Co2 from soil to atmosphere, the Krebs’ cycle, etc. I am doing it all time, that’s why I am understanding thousands of new things in Nature that you never thought about…

    Christopher – “Your life’s work is a worthless waste of effort. You are pathetic.”

    No, Chris… The whole Humanity life’s work till now has produced this aberration that is 7,5 billion humans being tortured and slaves as preys and 1% of big predators each time specializing in a way of living. You know what nature does with all big predators, from dinosaurs to eagles to lions – all them are discarded. In yours dream with Humans will be different. Our salvation will be a new world view bringing on a new moral code that does not mimics the animals’ rules of the jungle like all social systems till now is /was. Humans are pathetic.

  27. chigau (違う) says

    louismorelli
    Your web hosts are lying to you.
    You can have commenting on your website.
    Do it.
    You have been exploiting this space for too long.

  28. says

    Too tiresome.

    Louismorelli, you are now confined to the Thunderdome. That means you may only comment there. Comment in any other thread, and I ban you instantly. That means this one, too. That means you don’t even get to complain here about the terrible injustice done to you. It means shut the fuck up and if you have to babble, do it on the thread called Thunderdome, nowhere else.

  29. azhael says

    You know what nature does with all big predators, from dinosaurs to eagles to lions – all them are discarded.

    But PZ, he is so funny…

  30. Nick Gotts says

    Oh, sorry – I though I was still on “Dispatches…”. Now I’ll have given him ideas.

  31. Rey Fox says

    So now the Thunderdome has to change its name to…what? Dronedome? Dadadome? Driveldome? Woodome? Any other suggestions?

    Titanoboa.