As Ophelia has discovered, there is a facebook page titled Should Miri Mogilevsky be murdered? It claims
This page does not advocate any violence, or the breaking of any laws. It is, rather, an exercise in Free Speech.
It also asks,
Is Miri Mogilevsky, who blogs at Brute Reason at Freethought blogs! a loyal American ?
Has she ever had sex with PZ Myers ?
Has she ever had sex with Rebecca Watson ?
Because, obviously, all of those are offenses that warrant execution. It’s revealing, though: this is a person who does not understand the concept of free speech at all (it is not an idea that encourages harassment or intimidation), and also has the usual anti-skepchick/ftb obsession.
Anyway, as Ophelia suggests, if you have a facebook account, go to the page, click on the the gear icon just beneath the cover photo at the top, and select “report page”. As a bonus, you’ll discover how pathetic Facebook’s reporting mechanism is!
That’s an exercise in free speech? Jesus Vomiting Christ, could these not-so-stellar-brained individuals get a fucking education already?
And don’t you fucking dare accuse us of wanting to murder her simply because it is in the title! It is simply an exercise in free speech! If you bring up “murder”, it is your fault!
I really, really hate these people. Yet we are the ones who are in the wrong for not wanting to have an open dialogue with them.
It is an exercise in free speech comprehension failure, that’s for sure.
Facebook being a private web site, and not any public location where the government is obliged to not interfere.
And free speech being an inapplicable concept regardless to violent threats, a standard to which this Facebook page, if it does not constitute such, certainly tap dances right up to and bops on the nose….
*eyeroll* Sara Mayhew likes that page.
GBE: Nope. This person likes Sara Mayhew. I don’t see a list of the people who like the page.
I was just corrected. The owner of the page likes Sara Mayhew.
Yeah, if you look near the top of the page, it has zero likes.
Might I suggest a blanket ban on all other supposedly helpful suggestions on what should be done, besides reporting the obnoxious page to Facebook? (Mainly all of the suggestions are likely to be totally obvious and possibly already acted upon.)
I am actually finding that to be a bit encouraging.
Also, in case it is not clear, I am sorry that I said something blatantly wrong.
I want Sara Mayhew to be bothered by what she actually says and does, not by what I imagined she said.
What have you got against freeze peach? I mean, the page is only asking a question, and it specifically says that it doesn’t advocate violence. Wishing out loud that it’d be great if the person you hate was violently murdered is totally different from saying that it’d be great if someone murdered the person you hate. Clearly the poopyhead should be able to tell the difference, right?
But for reporting this page… I can’t find a proper category for it. I selected “Credible threat of violence”, but it’s probably not credible. Are these truly the only things Facebook thinks might make a page unacceptable?
I think they still don’t like breastfeeding mothers very much.
This Facebook page is clearly meant as harassment and thus should be taken down.
And here I am, a big defender of Nicholson Baker’s Checkpoint. But that was you know, art and stuff.
So, if someone makes a page passive-aggressively advocating the murder of a woman they disagree with, its free speech. But, if someone else makes a straightforward claim about what happened to them personally, its reprehensible libel. Right. Glad to see we are in a well-informed, logical and rational movement.
Disgusting.
Allow me to echo the sentiment that these rifts cannot be deep or wide enough for me.
Yeah, I don’t like those categories either, ck. I suppose “will no one rid me of this turbulent priest” doesn’t violate any standards on Facebook.
This is “elevatorgate”, right?
@ck:
How odd. That wasn’t on the list of reasons I got. I picked one about the page harassing me or someone I know, which is certainly a stretch, but better than picking “I just don’t like it”.
Do not know, cfieldb. And it is not a good idea to make baseless accusations.
cfieldb:
No, why? Does it make any difference to the ongoing misogyny and harassment?
So, let’s get this correct, free speech to the sexist horde is just pushing against people’s bondaries and tolerance and trying to abuse to the point but no further of what people are willing to accept and then constantly seeking to push further against that comfort level until a constant stream of abuse is normalized.
In other words, it is the exact MO of one particularly infamous sociopathic rapist/abusive ex my partner had.
And the sad thing is that is still less risky, less daring, less full of social consequence and genuine recrimination for using one’s free speech than simply speaking up for the oppressed and showing solidarity with them on what should be a no duh.
With every example, it only becomes more obvious that these assholes are moral cowards who want all the credit of being social activists without any of the risk, work, or unpleasantness of standing up against power. Which is almost exactly all the creationists who want all the credit and plaudits of science without doing all the work, research, and peer review of actual scientists.
Ugh, will we ever be free of lazy fuckers who see the one thing not automatically given to them as an accident of birth (the moral superiority of standing up for what’s right, even though it’s hard) as something that should also be in their privilege toy box rotting in a corner of their room?
Merlin @13
Who else is for filling the gorge with fire and fireproof killer wombats?
This has to stop. The atheist leaders are still far to accommodating for this and it is repulsive. We are at Tea party derangement and growing and so many people seem to be sitting on their thumbs.
“We reviewed the page you reported for harassment and found it doesn’t violate our community standard on bullying and harassment.”
Just now. Go, Facebook!
Naked Bunny with a Whip wrote:
At that point, I think I chose “It doesn’t belong on Facebook”, which then prompted me to select from several new categories (I picked the one about violence), and after that I had a drop down list to pick through as well.
Stephanie Zvan, really?
Oh fucking shit! I am happy I am not on FB.
Facebook replied to me with this text:
Just remind me, when was the last time that anyone like PZ or Rebecca made a website or Facebook page or whatever which asked the question “Should Person X be murdered?”, as an exercise in “free speech” or not?
Anyone?
Anyone?
Louis
Just got a “doesn’t violate community standards” response. Boy, they sure do deal with reports efficiently, eh?
I’m with Charlie Brooker on this one:
…..you really ought to consider folding your laptop shut and sitting quietly in the corner until that fallow lifespan of yours eventually reaches its conclusion.
Sometimes, corporations suck. And lend support to the people that suck.
I got the “doesn’t violate community standards” response, too. There’s an option to give feedback on their response. I took the opportunity to ask how a page dedicated to the purposed of making veiled threats of violence and insults against a private individual does not constitute harassment. Facebook Community Standards regarding Bullying and Harassment:
Yeah, I got the same response. Sent in feedback on the reply I got.
May be time to take screenshots of this next to advertising placement and tweet them to the sponsors. FB isn’t living up to their promise. Shocker, I know.
This is one of the things posted on the page:
The vileness is astonishing. And what’s even more sickening is that Facebook doesn’t care: photo’s of women breastfeeding? Removed. Any drawing that vaguely resembles a breast? Removed. Hate pages asking for the murder of a certain person? Freeze peach!
Hmm, I guess it’s time to start a “Should Facebook headquarters be bombed” Facebook page.
(No, not really.)
Thanks for the support, everyone. I appreciate it.
This seems like an exceedingly good idea, and it’s worked in the past.
That page was so disgusting I’m hoping Miri ironically finds it less upsetting. I mean, it can’t possibly even have some sort of hurtful but halfway legitimate point lurking vaguely somewhere amidst all the hate. It’s just adolescent Troglodyte … drool.
It makes me want to give Miri a hug.
Miri:
If there is anything at all we can do to help, please shout at us.
I got the same “Thank you for taking the time…” message.
My feedback to that decision was as follows:
To quote Facebook policy, you state you will take “action on all reports of abusive behavior directed at private individuals.”
For someone to set up a whole Facebook page around the question of whether it is OK to murder another individual is clearly a form of harassment. How can it not be??? The actual page author is also anonymous. Hiding behind a claim of “free speech” doesn’t not remove this implied threat.
The page in question should be removed because it is a threat of murder towards another person. In most countries threatening to kill is an offense which puts the person making the threat outside the bounds of “free speech”.
Facebook needs to take its responsibilities on abusive behavior seriously.
So, images of breast and breast feeding women are worse than passive aggressive hoggling about the murder of people one doesn’t agree with in the twisted moral worldview of Facebook? And yet the operators of that corporation still wonder why so many people despise them?
As for the poor excuse for a human being that vomited up this misogynist dreck, I would say that he (and lets be honest – it is all but certainly a ‘he’) needs to take a long, hard look at his life and his priorities, but that would be a waste of time. Such rank arseholes are a lost cause.
Cyberhugs for Miri Mogilevsky if she wants them.
Serious question.
What the fuck is wrong with these people?
Which people, Ingdigo Jump? The Facebook moderators, or the person(s) who created this page?
I am conflicted. I am thinking of signing up for Facebook just to report this page, but I also do not want to patronize any company whose community standards include murder threats.
@Ck
Yes
Hardly a day goes by without something to confirm my original impression that Facebook is evil. Very early on, I realized that FB’s business model amounts to “Tell us EVERYTHING about your life, so that we can aggregate this information for sale to any spammer or grifter who meets our price.” I understand that, even though I’ve never had an account, Facebook maintains a “shadow profile” on me, because I know people who fell for Facebook, and they have probably mentioned my name. It would be interesting to know how many of the people outraged by the NSA’s domestic surveillance programs are happily giving personal information to an advertising corporation. I wonder how many burglaries have been facilitated by people announcing to the world that they were leaving on vacation.
Actually we know what’s wrong with FB, so that’s a moot point.
@Stever
None.
Because you see I think people have this odd irrational preference to being ok with info they give out compared to info that is taken without their permission.
Just a thought.
As expected, same ‘we see no problem’ BS from FB. But please everyone, keep reporting this page. If they get hundreds of reports about the same page, maybe someone on a slightly higher level in their organisation will take notice (because the apparently barely literate asswipes who handle the reports don’t seem to give a fuck).
Reported, got the ‘we see no problem’ response; sent feedback quoting their “take action on all reports of abusive behavior directed at private individuals” section, stating that this does target an individual and please enforce your own rules.
Then I reported the page again.
It looks like the page has been taken down, since the link is now redirecting me to Facebook home.
That page is gone for me also.
Hilarious; I still got another “we see no problem” response, yet the page is down haha…. yeah not funny all-around -.-
i m going to assume that fb only redirects it for the people who complained, because we already reported it. Maybe somebody who hasnt reported it yet can verify?
I have not complained because I do not have a FB account.
One speculation shot down.
Page is gone.
There’s many cases of kidnappings that were planned around people posting their schedule in social networking sites.
Took them long enough. How long do you suppose before another one pops up?
Apparently there are many FB pages calling for murder of various people. And apparently FB thinks this is just a fine and dandy use of their website.
How long before the rending of garments and gnashing of teeth over oppression?
*adds internet hugs for Miri*
Combichrist – What The Fuck Is Wrong With You (youtube link) (warning: industrial)
And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about!
Dr. Dawkins’ infamous words are quite fitting here, don’t you think? Islamic fundamentalists threaten women with murder for speaking against the status quo! What does Miri have to complain about in the comfort of Western society? (aside from being targeted by her so-called “allies” of course.)
Fuck these people. And fuck Dawkins.
Next, Facebook is gone.
Personally I’m over it. I was amused during the election to post liberal stuff to annoy my redneck family in the South, but that’s past. Now, I’m not sure what’s it for. Fortunately I never got hooked on Twitter and rarely check that any more.
I’m waiting for anti-social network.
Yep, page gone.
Aren’t “conspiracy to murder” and “threatening to kill” crimes in the U.S.? What about facilitating and protecting people who conspire to murder / threaten to kill? Surely there must be laws against that, free speech or no free speech?
Just saying.
Okay, I’m going to say something controversial in response to all of this, but here goes: This is why I believe in doxxing.
Scum like the admin of this hate page do what they do because they know they are protected by complete online anonymity. Take that away, and a very powerful tool to protect and enable stalkers, abusers, and potential murderers is gone. Facebook’s bullshit response to people reporting this page is an exemplar of rape culture and misogynist culture and crime culture and every other kind of societal approval of the most horrible human impulses out there.
I want to know who this person is. He is a threat. In fact I consider him a clear and present danger to the safety of his community at large. Am I overreacting? Maybe it was all his idea of a joke? (Come on, JOKE, people!) You know what? I don’t care. I give entirely zero fucks. There are lines of basic human decency that you cross, where erring on the side of caution involves treating bad people the way they have openly asked to be treated: like a danger to others and an enemy to a safe society.
So while I do not have the admin’s name, emails, or place of employment, if I did have those things, you’d better believe I would go public with them without a moment’s hesitation. There are some things I wouldn’t go public with (his home address or phone numbers), but I would certainly publicize his name, his photo, and personally contact his employer to warn them who they had lurking in their offices.
Now, maybe you can throw all kinds of “moral” arguments at me about how this is a horrible idea. Maybe it is, and maybe I should just keep ignoring things like that page when they pop up, convincing myself that it’s all just a gag and people need to lighten up. And in this way, I can do my part to perpetuate the culture of terror and violence that bad people use to silence and frighten good people.
Or maybe, all of us can decide, fuck it, and do something to shut down those who threaten and harass for a change.
Anyway, the page seems to be down at last.
Martin Wagner:
You can take your scare quotes around moral and shove them until they shoot out of your mouth. Don’t do that. All it does is paint you as an unreasonable asshole who has no interest in a valid argument.
All I have to say about your idea is that I’m not crazy about a doxxing war, which is what would happen. Martin, I have been raped, multiple times. I’ve been assaulted for coming out of a gay bar. I’ve been stalked, offline, and online which went offline. It’s already fairly well known where I’m at, and that I live very rural. In my personal situation, I’m pretty vulnerable, so if you don’t mind, I’d rather not be a pawn in your strategy. And before you rush to your keyboard in rebuttal, that’s exactly what would happen to me and anyone else who spoke up. It’s damn nice some people have the privilege in life to not have to worry about such things, however, I am not privileged in that way, and nor are many others.
And apparently FB thinks this is just a fine and dandy use of their website.
Glad to hear the page is gone. For its future iterations, since Facebook doesn’t have a problem with it, perhaps the advertisers appearing on that page might?
I think Facebook may allow images of breastfeeding women as long as there’s no areola showing. Too bad for women with larger areolas.
Not meaning to jack this tread into a pro-breastfeeding thread, just pointing out that an optimal in most cases choice of feeding babies is more offensive to Facebook than indirect death threats.
The enemy loves death and suffering. They love rape and unwanted pregnancies. They love the poor becoming poorer as our productivity increases. They love theft and poverty. They loved that we tortured in Iraq and Afghanistan. They loved TORTURE! It made them feel comfortable. They love that the bayside floodwall being built in my beloved Galveston will barely last 70 years and that an Ike level storm in 50 years will likely breach the 1905 seawall that just barely held in 2008. They delight in death and suffering. They oppose the ACA because more Americans can live healthier lives.
They hate women because most women are too smart for this shit. And some women buy into it just like Serena Joy must have.
WENDY DAVIS FOR GOVERNOR OF TEXAS. SEND HER MONEY IF YOU DON’T LIVE IN TEXAS.
Maybe start a facebook page called “Should Mark Zuckerberg be murdered?” and then report it. See what happens.
Ten bucks says it won’t get the same non-response.
Yep, the page is gone. My guess is there’s some algorithm or something that needs to hit a certain threshold before the complaints are taken seriously or looked at by human eyeballs. Pharyngulated.
@robro #61 – I’m with you. This is the first time I’ve been back on FB in months, and I don’t forsee going back again anytime soon. Same with Twitter – I just don’t get it. If you start an antisocial network, let me know and we can find other like-minded folks, send each other messages which we’ll all ignore, and arrange to never, ever get together in meatspace :))
My mistake. Apparently, this did get a response.
Martin Wagner @ 63;
Unfortunately, as Caine, Fleur du mal points out @ 64, once you start attacking online anonymity in a bdi to make people more responsible for their comments then it is not only the creepers and dudebro misogynists who will be exposed; so will the victims of abuse. It would be all too easy for cyber-stalking to escalate to fleshspace stalking, and effectively offering the harrassers the ability to credibly back up online invective with the threat of direct personal harrassment or even violence could easily serve to make it easier for them to silence and marginalise their tragets, not harder.
Anonymity is not some essential oxygen to online harrassment in any case – many of the most vitriolic misogynists, homophobes, transphobes, racists and assorted other bigots out there are quite happy to post under their real names. They are proud of their bigotry, and accurately surmise that their immediate peer group will support them, and that society at large will most likely remain apathetic, if it doesn’t actively validate their harted.
Declaring open season on ‘doxxing’ would almost certainly harm more people than it helps, and could well result in forcing many vulnerable people off the internet entirely, which is exactly what the harrassers want.
Francisco Bacopa @ 66:
Breastfeeding and political campaigning for Texas are off topic for this thread. If you feel the need to continue in either of these veins, please consider taking such discussion to Thunderdome. Thanks.
The folks managing the site, like facebook, should dox those who deliberately violate the TOA to post threatening stuff, just like PZ does. You use our site to threaten, you will be exposed, period, end of story. Then it becomes a different argument, since a private site doesn’t have to abide by the freeze peach/privacy concerns in the constitution.
Nerd @ 72:
I sort of agree. But, to Thunderfoot, what PZed is doing is threatening. When someone points out the idiocy of DJ Groethe, he could, depending on the his point of view, see that as a threat. What you or I see as a threat, others don’t, and vice versa. So while I sort of agree, I can see that being massively abused.
Ogvorbis, there is a huge difference between a page advocating for the murder of a person and a critical blog post that does not advocate violence.
Actually, it isn’t that hard. Threats of death/physical violence/rape make for very clear dividing lines for the site managers. Especially for folks who push the line. Not to many people are willing to sue if they must be able to show to a jury of their peers they are “just kidding”, when taken in the context of their written words.
Janine and Nerd:
I get that. I just see (cynical me) a policy like this being used to out not just those who make real threats, but those who expose idiocy which could cost some one a job, or create a possible reason for threats.
Never mind. Forget I said anything.
…Jesus H fucking Christ on a thrice-blessed pogostick.
This is the kinda shit that makes me both inarticulate and violent…
I love it. I apologized to Sara Mathew for the mistake I make. This is the response I get.
My reply:
Sara Mayhew
I ended with this:
I fucking hate dealing with people who know what I think and assume that I just parrot what Watson and Myers says. This is why I avoid talking with people like her. It is pointless.
What? I corrected the mistake about Mayhew. I know she knows that because someone tweeted it at her. Yet she still says it’s my fault that people made that mistake?
How in hell does that work?
Because if we weak willed people would just stop following people Benson, Watson and Myers, we would see what an awesome person Mayhew is.
Or something like that.
The page is gone for me, too, and I never reported it. I think the idea is despicable and don’t understand how it could pass FB’s standards.
What – not Rebecca Watson’s, she of the feminist hair?
David Marjanović, Mayhew did blame Watson. Read my exchange in #78.
I wonder why they can’t imagine anyone doing anything but :-p
I agree. not wanting to drag other drama into this, but the big problem is that they won’t fucking let you avoid them. Even if you’re just on the periphery these people will demand your attention one way or another. I honestly would much rather they were the type of people who could just “pray for us” and let us be instead of fucking obsess over it.
Ingdigo Jump:
And that is really saying something. I wish they’d run off and pray too.
Janine (#78)
WTF. Mayhew shows up here often enough, so she has to know that Ophelia always quotes her fucking tweets. So it’s not like we’re just going by what Ophelia says she says. We can see what a deeply shitty person she is for ourselves. Especially when she puts in an appearance in the comments and makes an even bigger ass of herself!
Er, by “here” I mean “at B&W.” Didn’t notice this was was the Pharyngula thread, not the B&W one.
#81 “don’t understand how it could pass FB’s standards.”
You owe me keyboard!
I have tried to use Facebook’s reporting mechanism a few times and don’t think I’ve ever seen a reasonable response. A couple of months ago I reported someone for a blatant anti chinese racist attack on another commentator and got the stock “doesn’t violate community standards” message back that everyone here seems to be experiencing.
This whole thing has actually pushed me into leaving Facebook. I’ve disliked their values for a while now but stuck around as it’s a nice way to stay in touch with people, but now I’ve finally had enough.
Sadly, the ‘delete my account’ page no longer asks you why you are leaving.
Gilly, you can’t leave, you can only suspend your account, it sits there waiting for you to log back in in a moment of weakness.
I am generally in favor of expanding the concept of protection of free speech to other monopolistic/oligopolistic entities, in proportion to their ability to restrict the free exchange of ideas. For example, if your internet provider bans you from saying [X], that limits your ability to say [X] extremely, to nearly the same degree that being banned by government to say [X] would. FB being a near-monopoly of social networking, it makes perfect sense to protect the exchange of ideas on FB to a large degree.
However:
a)”near-monopoly” is still not the absolute monopoly that government has (i.e. if you can’t say it on FB, you can stull say it on g+, or even on a non-social-networking site), and the punishment for saying something FB doesn’t approve of is being kicked off FB, which compared to gubmint-style punishments is peanuts; consequently, “in proportion to their ability to restrict the free exchange of ideas” means that protections of speech needn’t be nearly as strict as they are for public spaces, because FB’s ability to limit the exchange of ideas is smaller than that of a government.
b)Harassment, threats, bullying etc. are not completely protected speech even at the First Amendment, Free Speech, etc. level. See:
State Cyberstalking and Cyberharassment Laws and Federal Cyberstalking Law
gillyc, marko,
I’m not sure if this still works, but I made use of this after suspending my facebook account some years ago:
http://www.techbuzz.in/how-can-i-permanently-delete-my-facebook-account.php
I think this is as close as you can get to deleting your account, short of breaking into FB database.
——–
*hugs* and sympathy for Miri
Jerks are always pulling that defense. Can’t criticize them by their relevant words that they actually say to us, have to be able to see through to their heart of hearts somehow.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls @ 72;
That does change the calculus as you say, and is infinitely preferable to a ‘tit-for-tat’ doxxing war between individuals. That said, I can still see the validity of Ogvorbis: Apologies Available for All! post @ 73. Could we trust an organisation like Facebook (given its, to put it mildly, less than stellar track record) to refrain from abusing such a principle? Who would get to define what constitutes a sufficient threat to warrent exposure? Threats to life and health, obviously, but what about less clear cut areas like notional threats to employment or professional reputation and job security? It seems very likely indeed that the attempt will at least be made to argue that these types pf threats warrent doxxing by those who don’t appreciate any criticism of their actions.
The reporting doesn’t work unless it’s against women…as in, a photo of a woman breastfeeding, or after a mastectomy, etc. Otherwise, everything goes on Facebook :(
hmmm, the link doesn’t take me there, and both google and facebook searches for it make it seem like maybe it is gone.
ah nevermind, just read down to 49 where other people already pointed that out…