A new tasteless meme is spreading across Reddit: good girl college liberal. As usual, I think you can guess what makes someone a “good” girl: it’s the willingness to do anything the guy with a copy of photoshop wants her to do. And what makes her a “college liberal”?
She’s topless.
I’ve never known that to be a common characteristic of women in college, liberal or otherwise, but as we all know, reality never interferes with a misogynist’s fantasies about how women should behave.
I’ve included an example below the fold. Breasts are blurred out, but you might still want to be careful about flashing the picture around the workspace.
I did find this comment on the poor propagators of this nonsense amusing.
“I just had a female employee accuse me of looking at porn at work,” opined one unfortunate meme participant.
Hopefully he was able to explain that he wasn’t participating in a culture that routinely objectifies women; he was just browsing Reddit.
It’s a shame. Reddit, in principle, is a really good idea. It’s too bad our culture isn’t grown up enough to participate in it responsibly.
Reddit Delenda Est
I’m confused, and I dare not click that link while at work.
What the hell are they suggesting?
That she has become the woman that these wankers want: Someone who says nothing unless a man asks her, and if a man asks her, would be happy to do whatever they ask.
hence, the entire “good girl” meme.
It’s not saying she’s stupid, if that’s what you were concerned about. It’s pointing out she is the result of the training of women in our society to be little more than objects to men.
Lovely. Their version of Girls Gone
WildGood. It just never stops. Women, you are girls. Women, you must not be uppity. Women, if you have a brain, do not use in front of men. Women, remember your worth, tits or GTFO. Women, be decorative at all times – remember, your ability to cause boners is the most important quality you have, next to being a handy receptacle.headdesk
Why, “A good girl doesn’t speak unless she is spoken to!”
–
…and thus endeth my wishful thinking this morning over coffee.
more headdesk
Last night, anyone behind my table at the coffee shop thought I was *seriously* into vaginas. Today, presumably, they’ll be asking me when the narwhal bacons, or some such.
Seriously reddit? Way to go. This might be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen. Today. But yeah. I can’t even.
did you know narwhals are the Jedi of the sea?
no reddit is not a good idea. Its horribly designed imo both aesthetically and practically
Reddit and Metafilter: still neck and neck in the race for the Mos Eiseley Spaceport Award.
Ing@12:
During the creepshots furor someone came into a thread to lecture everyone about how they were being shrill and self-righteous. His argument was essentially that the people decrying Brutsch’s actions weren’t anti-child porn enough.
He goes on to explain how child pornographers use Reddit to network synonymously and all the difficulty he’d had with child pornographers trying to take over the subreddits he was active in. And that we were terrible people for not speaking out about this.
So I think to myself, “Wait, is this supposed to be a pro-Reddit argument?!”
Reddit is a great idea…if you’re a bully or a child pornographer.
To clarify, the thread I am talking about was not on FtB.
Chris:
No. I just can not take any more of that. Not right now. It just never ends.
Reddit is an open forum. Actually, a series of open forums.
Blaming “reddit” is like blaming “the internet”. Utterly moronic. Great, a subset of a vast number of people did something you don’t like… better castigate all of them!
So a good woman is…
A. Infantalized by the label “girl.”
B. Conventionally attractive and cheerfully topless.
C. And she does not offer her political opinions unless asked, presumably by a man who is allowed to share his political opinions prior to asking, because otherwise no one would ever talk about political opinions at all.
I need to go flail and punch a wall or something.
krisrhodes, I’m sure you’ll provide a link to you criticizing sexism among individual redditors so that we’ll know your entire contribution to the topic isn’t criticizing people who DO criticize sexism there.
Because if that’s your only contribution, that’d make you an accessory to the shit over there. And I’m sure you don’t want that.
Chris
You forgot 4chan. If such a thing were possible, I would suggest that all three sites be nuked from orbit.
krisrhodes:
Yes, expecting people to act as decent human beings, utterly moronic. I’m certain you’re ever so proud of supporting sociopathic behaviour. Just doing your bit and all.
Given that you seem to think that “the internet” doesn’t involve people in any way, you best get off, right now. Could be robots or something, by gosh!
krisrhodes:
You are ontologically confused; Reddit is a for-profit private company and the internet is a communications infrastructure.
Yes, the comment is ‘amusing’, juxtaposed as it necessarily is and must be in the context of the excruciatingly nauseating. But yeah, even on that level foisted by ‘the poor propagators of this nonsense’ with their stinky glue claim of common normalcy, I get it. I think. We know their stinky glue is not much of an excuse…even for any amusement one might charitably summon up on their behalf.
ANY guys who think like that are a major drag, any way one tries to look at it. They’re ‘spherical bastards’..
Thank you, John. I weary of this cry that “the internet” is some sort of entity.
“So, are you two friends in real life, or just on the telephone?”
Chris:
Hey, I don’t
kissfriend and tell.Caine:
Me too. It’s a total cop-out.
Nobody blamed the postal service for chain letters any more than people blame email for spam – it’s exclusively people that use both. People are frequently arseholes and will use the same media and means as other people in order to behave like arseholes.
The difference is that Reddit is a private, opt-in network that’s allegedly moderated. When members of a private network are discovered to be behaving like arseholes, it becomes the responsibility of the network to moderate or tolerate them. Reddit is being criticised, yet again, for tolerating arseholes instead of moderating them. They are of course free to tolerate arseholes – just as free as non-arseholes are to criticise them.
The fempire is pretty good. I’m not much of a fan of SRSPrime, but the SRS branded subreddits are civilized places. And /r/atheismplus has some nice discussion as well.
But yeah, mostly reddit is a slimepit. The worst part is that they could clean up some of the worst, but are making a misguided decision not to based on a misunderstanding of free speech (and presumably profit, I suppose adds from the KKK section of reddit make them money, as do ads on creepshots).
On a serious note, yep, just that. A lot of people have achieved a state of mental disconnect, a sort of tech dissonance. It’s disturbing, this insistence which drones on in the background, “not real not real not real not real not real.” Yes, Virginia, there are people on the internet. Real people.
Hankstar:
Wow, I forgot all about those. Seriously annoying, those damn things and the people who sent them: obnoxious assholes. Like amway back in the day.
Give me a break. Reddit has thousands of subreddits. You don’t have to subscribe to any of them. Reddit doesn’t censor (very little), Yes, it is open to teenaged trolls. They don’t dominate all subreddits.
Give me a break. FTB has dozens of blogs. You don’t have to read any of them.
Etc.
Greg Williams:
No! Oh my gods, you had better alert the press, right now! This news will shock the world!
So good to know we have yet another defender of unethical, immoral behaviour in our midst. Why of course, objecting to scummy assholes behaving badly is the problem! How foolish not to see it before!
As you’re a tad thinking impaired, Greg – you’re a bit of an idiot.
I object to their existence. This objectifies women and normalising objectification of women affects me where ever I go. It is cultural poison, forever reenforcing the idea that women are their to please the eyes and libidos of men and have no other purpose. Whether or not I have to go to these subreddits, I have to live in the society they are helping to poison.
The insistence that this sort of thing always the result of teenagers is incorrect and minimising. If you think misogyny and objectification are somehow quarantined within teen culture, then you are wrong, and even if you weren’t wrong, it would still be bad and worth objecting to.
Give me some logic, reason, and ethics. You have nothing to contribute to those subjects. Why don’t you shut the fuck up and listen as trolls like MRA fuckwits need to do.
because sexism will go away once you stop looking at it? Object permanence, you lacks it.
Jadehawk:
Of course it will! After all, that sort of thing is only on “the internet”, it’s not like society is sexist or anything.
I ran into this a few days ago. I found it heartening that there seemed to be some significant in-Reddit pushback.
This meme appears to be related to the “Good Girl Gina” meme. That was also about a young woman who was depicted as “good” because she was compliant.
A Redditor named LaTeX_fetish posted a statistical analysis of the Gina macros, which readers here might find interesting. This was a few months ago, but the post is still there. It is called “What Makes Gina a Good Girl?”
http://www.reddit.com/r/ShitRedditSays/comments/13ufh3/effort_what_makes_gina_a_good_girl/
Wait a minute.”Utterly moronic”? “blaming…a subset of a vast number of people did something you don’t like”? Conclusion: “better castigate all of them”?
Are you serious? Or just incredibly dense?
Perhaps you will concede there IS an idiocy afoot – whether it belongs to individuals, or a group of them, or a forum that refuses to regulate its own doings for the benefit of the majority of its users, you know, just to be able to establish that they are every bit as cognizant over the importance of being an “open forum” as they are over the importance of understanding how erosive to the very concept of ‘openness’ it can get when no rules of decorum are applied – then you may concede therefore that such idiocy, no matter how thinly distributed, tends to gain an upper hand and dictate the coarse of that illusion of an ‘open fucking forum’.
Do you or the ‘organizers’ of reddit really and truly think you are tapping into any kind of actuality in terms of ‘freedom’ or ‘liberty’? Or is it just another example (bloated as it is to the tune of $$$billions – uh, which must make it alright) of a forum formula designed (oh yes, quite unconsciously I’m sure) to hike up the influence of the idiot, asshole, and sundry other contrarian bullshit artists and crackpots at the expense of the rest of us?
I think reddit and similar will inevitably evolve to something approaching decency. However, if they persist – with that adopted cultural meme they and you so seem to adore – they will drop cataclysmically right into the sewer of extinction where they belong: as a stupid pseudo-experiment that pretended to ‘know’ how people interact.
Pardon. I must now pass out.
@Scr…Archivist
The information in that link is pretty damning. I kind of need brain bleach now. Why do people think this is funny?
I don’t really know what reddit is needed for anyway.
What does it do really… let people create forums on the internet? And since when did we need reddit for that? I remember being able to create standard cut-n-paste php boards for free (ad-funded) in the freaking 90s (or well, the early 00s at least).
There are much better ways to communicate over the internet that are not dependant on some kind of single, monolithic corporate entity. I for one can’t wait for all this “social media” wankery to go out of fashion…
deee:
I’m afraid you’ll be waiting a very long time, as there has been some form of “social media” wankery for as long as there’s been people. You can just reach more people now.
Guys guys guys! Hey guys!
Turns out we don’t have to worry about sexism, because some man said that it’s no big deal and we can ignore it if we want to!
Whew! Glad that’s all over with!
Greg Williams, please provide a link that shows where you’ve criticized sexism on Reddit.
This is for your convenience so we can skip on past deciding that you think calling out sexism is worse than sexism.
Because Metafilter needs to feel superior to something.
Sorry, Yazikus. Imagine how much brain-bleach one would need to do that research!
I was simply impressed that someone went to the trouble to actually quantify the depravity, and its myriad variations. One is wise to know what tune the Devil is singing. At least some of the time, anyway.
I used to think MetaFilter could be salvaged, but the last few sexism threads, and my being described as a bully for quoting and replying to people, has left me so tired.
This explicit representation of “women, shut up and be decorative” just makes it worse. Fucking assholes.
deoridhe:
Me too. My partner and a few of our mutual friends are regulars there. But the civility fetish moderation culture has let one smart, funny, humane feminist after another leave the place in disgust over the four years or so I’ve been paying attention to the place.
For some, it provides a way to feel a sense of community pride about being an asshole.
It reminds me of the “dreadful bargain we have struck”, where your choices seem so often to be swallow shit, or to point shit out and get blamed for it. Neither are fun choices.
Even PZ accepts that most of Reddit is good if you look at his blog posts…
Anyway if you look at the thread for this post, all the upvoted posts are calling its sexism out, and all the downvoted ones are ones that are themselves sexist.
This meme (which it isn’t even yet) will not proliferate, it will die on Reddit.
Grrrrrr…on the subject of the interminable war between the sexes: Girls Are Smarter Than Boys.
Uhm I’m hoping not to get blasted here:
I have never posted a sexist,homophobic or racist comment. I have never viewed any images. The most offensive thing I do is hang out in r/atheism and mess with trolls and fundies, recently I have done a lot of sparring over abortion rights,and transgender issues. While I can be more than a little scatological in these “debates” some simple research will demonstrate that these claims are true.
I have given to womens groups, built computer labs in abused womens shelters, given computers to girls schools in Afghanistan, and distributed (free!) computers all over the world.
I am James Burgett in the real world and fatattoo on reddit and I must say that while I cannot dispute the unbelievable misogyny on reddit. I do think that the overall opinion expressed here is simplistic.
If you need further examples of my bona fides Theres this,
https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=james+burgett+cnn&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
This is not an attempt to create a “No true redditor” reddit can be and is offensive. But some are trying to fight it.
An aspect of reddit that most of you don’t seem to know about is the “create the content you want and vote down the content you don’t” aspect which needs people like you.
Gee, *floosh* Opinion sent to the sewage system. Welcome to reality, not your inane and unevidenced (by our standards) OPINION.
Eeeek! I can see this devolving into guns don’t kill people; people kill people.
Oh, you mean this fuckwitted and out of context idjit with egg on his face? Try reality, where you come across as somebody who is a liar and bullshitter….
@56 what are you trying to say? You didn’t make a lot of sense, Is there some kind of code I’m missing?
In addition, if thats the totality of your reply then I stand by “simplistic” and add “poorly thought out”.
I’d hoped that this forum would be less reactionary than the subject of this thread.
Oh, and any fool who believes any video by Reap show prima facie evidence they are scum of the earth….
Comment by Harold Camping blocked. [unhush][show comment]
Old news, Cupcake. Trolling, you’re doing it badly.
In your words, we would believe your line of bullshit rather than the reality we see before us. Think about that, then don’t get back to us.
You might try something radical, like reading the thread, rather than simply looking for responses to your post.
@63 I’ve provided evidence of who and what I am. you obviously didn’t look. Thanks
@ 64 I’ve read the thread and I agree with most of it. I am not defending reddit. I am pointing out that you do have the option of changing it. You can modify the brain to frat slime ratio. Thats all. If you’d rather just slam it, thats your option. But it won’t change anything.
I’m very sorry if I am pissing people off. It was not my intention. If the people complaining here, voted there, this shit would go away.
Reading the reddit thread shows that the majority of people (if the upvotes are anything to go by) are against this and are calling it out for the sexism it is
Why should I lower myself by going there. Who gives a shit what you think? Since you obviously don’t think?
I never look at links from obvious trolls. Not worth it. They all lie/distort/imagufature bullshit.
*slow clap*
Thoughtcrime, I see what you’re saying. Please understand that people here have dealt with a LOT of the “no true _”/”it’s not ALL bad” stuff, and also a lot of the “I’m not a _ but…” stuff. Also, Nerd, despite other good traits, has this weird fetish for selectively and summarily dismissing certain statements as “OPINION” and therefore worthless because…well, just because. I guess it’s his opinion. Don’t read too much into it.
I’d suggest you avoid getting defensive. Understand that most of the people here have reasons for being on edge and that those reasons relate to experiences significantly more distressing to them than this reaction is to you.
I went to Reddit once. ZJ was doing an AMA about Bradley Manning. Funny thing was I couldn’t actually read the interview since every single thing she wrote was downvoted. All that was visible was a bunch of comments telling her how stupid she was. I don’t think I’ll be visiting to downvote the “good girl” meme, since I’m pretty confident that me doing so won’t make any of this shit go away.
I like using reddit while at work (browsing on my phone). I unsubscribe from the subreddits like Advice Animals, where you would find this meme. Theres also Good Guy Greg and Good Girl Gina. Good Guy Greg is good because he does good things. Good Girl Gina is good because she is nice to her boyfriend or men in general. I mostly stay out of comments, but if you want to wade in expect hostility when you call people out on their shit. Every one is already an expert on male privilege, though they reject it completely. They can’t really articulate why, but if you ask they will happily ramble on about shit. I could care less about Karma, so I don’t mind engaging people. Its an exercise in futility. Not once has anyone ever conceded I made a good point or was correct. Still, I don’t do it for them. Its the same reason I call out theists, its so other people see these ideas challenged.
Reddit is far from all bad. Its a collection of independent sites, basically. There is a lot of crossover, but anyone can make a subreddit. Still, its bad enough that I typically only browse it at work to waste time. I don’t often enter into the comments sections unless I’m out of things that attract my interest. There are also useful subreddits, like /r/pets, which are completely devoid of this shit (its just a place to ask advice on your pets). Don’t assume all subreddits are like this. There are plenty of niche sites. It isn’t reddit, its the subreddits. The subreddits can ban sexist shit. Some do moderate heavily. I like that reddit isn’t restrictive. Its important to have open communication on the internet, even if it is utilized by sexists and racists. I just wish more subreddits were restrictive. People can still have their own platforms on their own subreddits, but they don’t need to shit all over other people.
Oh fuck, how in the hell, did I forget to preview such a TLDR comment., sorry all.
thoughtcrime,
Poor start. Why do people feel the need to say this? Your words will stand on their own, your hopes over how people will respond to you are just that. Don’t want to get “blasted”? Make sure your comment is cogent, compassionate, and on-point.
Blah, blah, fucking blah. No one asked for your bona fides, and no one cares. Again, people will respond to the points you make. Alright, now that you have told us how great you are and how you totes deserve cookies, you can finally get to your actual point…
What a stupid fucking point. How is it simplistic? Quote some simplistic opinions that you were referring to, and explain how you see them as simplistic. I shouldn’t have to tell you to actually substantiate your claim of simplicity. That is Nerd’s point, you gave us your OPINION, with no reason to accept it. So, it was duly dismissed.
No one asked for your bona fides, and no one gives a fuck. Your past good-deeds don’t change what you are saying now.
I’m pretty sure that those commenting on this thread know this, since they fucking read the OP, where PZ quotes from just such a redditor that is fighting back. The claim isn’t that no one is fighting back, its that the sexism on reddit is too common, and that it is a slimy fucking problem. Which you know, since you are fighting it, right?
Fuck that. They need to get their fucking act together. Clean your own fucking house. My home here at Pharyngula is not too shabby at all. That took a lot of work by countless regulars*.
*PZ is alright too.
seriously everyone go and read the thread this was posted on
sexism = downvoted
calling out sexism = upvoted
it is a clear trend; this meme isn’t going to get anywhere and is being hated on by the general community of reddit
@67 and 68. Trying to talk to some people is like teaching card tricks to dogs. please continue to embrace your misguided assumptions. How enlightened. Your head is obviously way up your nether orifice and seems to spend a lot of time there, Can you describe your colon by taste?
Substandard troll.
That is you, the non-regular, by definition. Do try not to appear too deficient in ability to define things. Makes you look bad.
well, this has been eye opening. what a bunch of wankers. thanks for cluing me in. I tried. I’ll close my account and let the few off you who don’t seem to have anything but a need to vent fester in your own juices. toodles!!.
thoughtcrime:
Care to elucidate the reasoning whereby you reached this remarkable conclusion?
(And how it is that you apparently imagine you defend reddit thereby?)
Woo Monster:
Did it ever! The work never ends, either. I’m fuckin’ exhausted from the Adria wars.
thoughtcrime:
This isn’t twitter. Nor is it reddit. Use people’s nyms and quote what you’re responding to – that aids clarity and conciseness, which are valued here. We don’t depend on ‘voting’. The html to quote is right under the comment box, but since most people can’t manage that, use: <blockquote>Place Text Here</blockquote>
Yet, you anticipated it when you started off by saying “i hope i don’t get blasted…”
Fuck off. The responsibility for the filth on reddit is solely on those people who post that shit, or participate in that community without speaking out against it.
Stop getting so defensive if you spend your time doing just that. Here, a cookie just for you. Good job.
Isn’t that what you were doing? No “this is what I believe, and this link (link to google scholar citation) is the evidence to back it up”. That isn’t wanking. Linking to a video of yourself saying the same thing you tell is here is prima facie evidence of wanking….
in this thread that’s precisely what’s happening though so this seems a misplaced direction of anger against reddit
[meta]
Caine:
That’s about as gnomic as one of my contentions.
imkindaokay:
No, it is not. FFS, this post is not about this one “meme” (and I’m hating that more and more, every time you bring it up – it’s about sexism), it’s about yet one more incident in the vast sewer of Reddit. Provide evidence of Reddit actively moderating, recalibrating posting and content policy and people consistently downvoting scummy behaviour and activity on every single reddit and we’ll talk.
…goddamnit.
I agree that reddit should be moderated and that all subreddits that are actively offensive (eg mra) should be deleted.
To post about reddit being a place where shit like this isn’t called out though, and then citing an example wherein the shit is called out seems a bit silly.
[meta]
jeffsutter:
Not much of an encomium, is it?
imkindaokay, even if your point about this thread is valid, you’re missing the forest for ONE PINE CONE.
@Thoughtcrime (all posts): Son, I think you need to learn the ancient art of “Lurk more.” Spending a few hours reading comments before dropping your comment on the table as if it’s your phallus to be admired by all would help. By the way, noone gives a shit about:
A) who you are
B) your past deeds
C) your proof of the above
Posting these here sounds like a desperate appeal of “BUT I’M NOT LIKE THEM.” You seem to be reflexively defending reddit because you don’t understand why someone would have criticisms, or that the people here are “too simplistic” to understand. Please be aware that this is damn near textbook “Mansplaining” (wiki it, champ) combined with what appears to be a blatant disregard for the original content posted seems to fall in line with most people hailing from Reddit, where you jump into the comments without careful consideration of your wording, style, or (ESPECIALLY) content. You spent half of your first post on how awesome you were. The entire fucking thing boils down to this line:
To which I reply: How?
you still haven’t answered this. I’ll post more when I’ve had a few more beers and cooled off.
also:
@55: Fuck off you useless shit stain. Noone cares about Thunderfuck and whatever bullshit lies he’s come up with this time/last time/whenever.
Caine,
I am sorry I wasn’t able to be online at all to help out with that. I am slowly catching up, but I still have thousands of comments to read.
And thanks again to all of the horde who do the hard work, day in and day out. Pralines for everybody!
thoughtcrime,
Bets on flounce?
imkindaokay,
Explain?
Not if the shit isn’t closed down by management for ethical violations. That is our point.
Reddit Delenda Est.
All Hail Brd!
imkindaokay,
For fucks sake, this post isn’t calling out the people on reddit who are objecting to these meme. It is highlighting yet another piece of sexist garbage on reddit. Hint, we think it is good that some people are calling it out. Now, keep up the work, redouble your efforts, and stop getting defensive when people are helping you call out the sexist shitheads.
My point is valid, I’ve read the thread. I don’t disagree that many of reddit’s subreddits are quite terrible and should be banned. I do disagree that complete censorship of offensive things is bad though, as everyone here does.
Read the thread in which this “meme” was introduced.
Woo Monster:
No problem. Yes, thousands. Don’t tear all your hair out. Have booze on hand. Lots and lots.
RobPowell @90, that was splendid! Thank you.
….then what the hell is your point?
Alright, enough posting about posting.
Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts@91
Flounce is probably out of the question. No parting shot yet so he can go whining back to r/atheism about how he told off the pharyngulites, the big bullies.
imkindaokay@87
after the colloquially named Pedocaust, Jailbaitcaust, and Creepshots fiasco, please explain to me why I should want to participate in this shithole? Seriously. The place seems to be a giant hugbox for white men that are afraid that women are going to steal their precious jimmies. Reddit Delenda Est. Or at least get better janitors.
Nerd,
But Nerd, if you were over there down-voting the filth, it would all be gone already. So, nana-nana boo-boo.
/snark
imkindaokay,
Is it really that hard to explain your point in your own words? Don’t bother now, you explained it before I refreshed at #87, and I already responded to you at #94
This comments section was recently criticised by another blogger because it allows people to post offensive stuff, rather than completely banning and deleting them. People here generally accept that it’s better to tear bad ideas down than simply delete them. The example cited here is being criticised on reddit by redditors and the criticism is being upvoted, etc.
This meme is not spreading across reddit. This is an example of reddit working.
Woo Monster:
This is in the same school of magical thought as “if you don’t look at sexism, there is no sexism! Duh.”
Honestly, if I eyeroll any harder, my spine is going to pop out of my neck.
No, not until the certain pictures and subreddits are closed permanently. Opinion closes nothing. Management being ethical stops bad practices. That is our point. Which you fail to refute, just show an irrelevant side-step.
Caine, Fleur du mal@96
Thanks. Never thought I’d be complimented for venting my spleen at someone.
imkindaokay@100
You keep picking out examples, thinking that you’re showing that ‘reddit WORKS! SEE!’ regardless of the COUNTLESS issues and incidents over the years. Reminds me of what happened when Violentacrez got outed, and countless shitlords rushed to defend the piece of shit. The continuing campaign against SRS is another fine example. Please don’t think that a few mea culpas are going to dissuade most folks who’ve watched reddits slime ooze all over people. When people talk about moderating reddit, they’re not talking about being offended, they’re talking about tyranny of the majority being used to harass and silence people because they have had the TEMERITY to be different.
Fucking hell. I’m almost wishing Chris had posted this so I could at least see bunnies.
Well I have agreed the subreddits should be banned. I don’t understand your second sentence. Why don’t you advocate for complete censorship here?
Reddit has worked here. That is a very different statement.
To the continuing blockheaded idiocy of:
this refresher by Nerd of Redhead:
Precisely.
How many times does a hammer need to strike a nail before it hollers that its home and fucking flush with the surface already?
imkindaokay@105
OH FOR FUCKS SAKE. Read the rest of the post you fucking troglodyte!
Fuck it, I’m out for the moment. Someone please hit these fucks with a clue by four
robpowell:
I do what I can.
Since this has been dealt with responsibly, why is it necessary for management to violate the principles?
I’ll also re-ask why you don’t advocate for full censorship here, despite others believing that would be better.
Wow, Chris, THAT is fantastic. Love it.
Eeeeeeeeeeeee. Thank you, Chris. That was desperately needed. Now you’re going to fix all the malfunctioning brains, right? Hello?
imkindaokay:
If you’re assaying a tu quoque, be aware that the equivalent comparison would be comment threads dedicated to posting offensive stuff.
(If not, what’s your point? Because comments by readers on blog posts and comments on topical boards created by users are different things)
They’re both conversations.
My point is that I agree with the principle that it is better to see something offensive being criticised and having it explained why it is offensive, than deleting it completely.
On the subreddits dedicated to being offensive there is very rarely any criticism of the offensive thing, which is why I think they should be banned.
“responsibly”
“principles”
laughter
imkindaokay, stop. Is this supposed to be an example of what Reddit does for a person? Makes them obtuse and incapable of making a proper argument? Christ, just stop digging.
imkindaokay,
Well, there you go.
Given your very own words, it’s clear that you’d be perverse to dispute this post’s titular thesis (unless you don’t see when omission is de facto commission, as least as regards responsibility): “Reddit: working hard to bury their reputation ever deeper in the slime “
No, because as I have said, this is not an example wherein reddit comes off badly, nor is it posted in a subreddit dedicated to being offensive.
Chris Clarke@108
Thank you Chris. :3 I think I’ve been staring at this for about 10 minutes now.
imkindaokay@109,113
More not-pologies and attempts to say “See it was fixed why do you hate freeze peach?” Seriously. I’m almost positive you’re just reading the first 20 words of each post and moving on because you can’t answer any of it reasonably. Let me put this in simple form:
IF:
Reddit can moderate itself
AND:
Reddit is NOT composed almost entirely of shithead misogynist assholes
THEN:
It shouldn’t have issues with people like Violentacrez, who bragged about giving oral sex to his stepdaughter openly.
THUS:
Please explain why it took the better part of 2 years for Violentacrez to get banned.
@imkindaokay: Its clear many here don’t give a shit whether reddit comes off badly or smelling like roses, as you do.
See the picture coming into any better focus now?
So, if a redditor, or some subreddit, criticizes an example (of which there are fucking thousands) of sexism on reddit, it is an example of reddit working. But if a non-redditor (an outsider) criticizes an example of sexism on reddit it is double-plus ungood?
I am just trying to understand the point of those getting defensive.
Not sure I’ve said sorry or attempted to apologise once.
Because reddit doesn’t moderate itself like that… (also, I have openly said it should, I too can accuse you of not reading what I’m writing). I just don’t think this is an instance in which moderation would result in a better outcome than leaving it to be criticised, which is what is happening.
Really not what I’ve said. The image is sexist. Criticise the image. However this is not an example you can use to attack reddit itself. That would be like me taking a sexist commenter’s comment on on of PZ’s post and saying ‘look at what festers!’ It’s missing the context. In this example, reddit is not at fault.
Well, you do. And you think it would be better if this image was deleted. I do not.
I don’t get why someone would want to take that approach. It would be like moving into a house where people believed strongly in the right of all residents to shit on the floor and light things on fire. Sure, you could go in there and try to “make it a better place”. But why? You could go in there and “create content”. But why does reddit deserve our content? And why would someone want to plop their content down amongst the piles of shit and smoldering end-tables?
Plus, it’s not like reddit is some kind of “land of democracy”. It’s not “our” reddit. Reddit is a media company — one that has decided that its fundamental approach is to create the kind of environment where the expression of hatred and misogyny can thrive. It strives to be one of the internet’s biggest “safe havens” for sick assholes. Unsurprisingly, it attracts a lot of sick assholes.
Plus, it’s not the only way to go about it. There’s a lot to be said for pressuring organizations from the outside. And there’s a lot to be said for talking with one’s feet.
“I just don’t think this is an instance in which moderation would result in a better outcome than leaving it to be criticised…”
What can possibly be wrong with criticising crap – regardless of how you seem to feel the need of a distinction because of your personal requirement of how its portrayed?
What’s the matter with you?
I have argued the exact opposite.
imkindaokay:
Now you’re being obtuse.
I specifically addressed your own words: “On the subreddits dedicated to being offensive”, and noted this post’s titular thesis obviously applies to them.
That you dispute (however parochially) that this post refers to one such doesn’t deny that you acknowledge the existence of such; and the very existence of such vindicates this post.
(Apparently, you not only would be perverse, but you indeed are so)
#123 david kilmer,
Well fucking said.
Then the example and thus whole article that stems from it is not at all related to the title.
David Kilmer:
Oh, so QFMFT.
Exactly. There’s also dragging the scummy assholism into the light of day, such as PZ did with this post.
Then you have nothing ethical/cogent to say. So, stop defending the indefensible.
How can anyone tell?
That sentence appears to have caused two people some confusion, so I’ll reword it.
I don’t think in this instance and similar instances removing the image is better than criticising the image
Reading, I expect.
imkindaokay:
You can’t nitpick when there’s no nit to pick; it is not necessary that the titular example exemplify the titular thesis.
(Specifically, I referred to the thesis, not to the title, adjectival qualification notwithstanding)
So do you think the titular example is relevant or irrelevant to the titular thesis? And if it’s irrelevant, what’s the point?
And any ethical person thinks closing the subreddit with the picture is superior to such subthreads existing. You aren’t refuting our claims. Simply concern trolling.
imkindaokay:
What part of “prevention is better than cure” is confusing to you?
Lets unbar Violentacrez, repost all of those child porn pics, but also create a couple of subreddits criticizing them. Hey, that would be just great. Yeah, reddit’s self-moderation works so fucking well.
/snark
What subreddit do you think it’s on?
“Well, you do. And you think it would be better if this image was deleted. I do not.”
Your wrong again. Nobody here at all condones ANY kind of CENSORSHIP. Your problem seems rooted in the need to have the few assholes have their say and way at the expense of the many who object to what assholes say and how assholes take over. Its not as if anybody is prohibiting people from being assholes (its their right) but it is about being able to use a forum that isn’t controlled by them. Its a tad disingenuous to suggest that the freedom to object to the onslaught of assholeism is somehow lesser than that which you bestow upon assholes.
Then why do you allow offensive comments on pharyngula? it’s generally accepted by both people here and people everywhere that something that is offensive that is being criticised is generally helpful for other people to learn from.
I’ve said very many times that subreddits dedicated to being offensive should be banned, so, no.
imkindaokay:
Oh John I think I understand you now.
Yes, reddit is less than ideal. Yes, offensive subreddits should be banned. This titular thesis does not make sense in relevance to the example cited though, nor do I think the example in particular is one that should be deleted.
imkindaokay:
What makes you imagine they’re allowed?
(Are you aware of the commenting rules which are prominently linked in the sidebar?)
“What can possibly be wrong with criticising crap”: “I have argued the exact opposite.”
Then you have argued for crap.
Good for you.
And anyone else can plausibly argue you’re full of shit.
imkindaokay:
How nice for you. Yes, let’s just leave the rights of the woman in the photo aside. What does she matter?
By this I mean they’re not deleted (unless they’re super-very-bad), instead they’re dealt with in an appropriate manner. e.g., when someone says ‘cunt’ everyone says to that person, in various ways ‘no’. I think that’s a better way of dealing with it than deleting all comments that use that word.
Well obviously she matters a great deal, but deleting the instance in which the “meme” is heavily criticised for being sexist is not going to help.
Anchor, I don’t understand most of what you’re saying I’m afraid :(
Chris:
Scummy asshole Reddit responses: “Hey, she uploaded it the internetz! If she didn’t want it used by scummy assholes, she should been responsible and not done that!”
“Hey, I know that chick, she’s cool!”
“What’s the matter with you, bitch? You ugly? Some women are proud of their assets!”
And so on.
imkindaokay:
And so we come back to a fundamental difference between Reddit and a blog.
The cited example would not exist on this blog, because (unlike your spurious ambit claim) Pharyngula not only discourages the creation of such a meme, but would tromp on it right quick were it ever to instantiate.
(Or: what you admitted exists on Reddit doesn’t exist here, so your attempted comparison is flawed)
“Anchor, I don’t understand most of what you’re saying I’m afraid :(”
I do not doubt that.
You’re no better than violentacrez. You each want her photo kept online for your own purposes.
My point is that you can easily find very many offensive comments on Pharyngula. Unlike a lot of the time on reddit though, they are dealt with. When they are dealt with on reddit though (as often they are on the non-offensive subreddits – though I can’t imagine many people here actually read reddit) that is a good thing.
Also, imkindaokay? That comment you just tried to post in which you claim we totally allow commenters to use that word that rhymes with “runt” because it’s better to argue with the users than suppress it?
It’s in the spam filter because you used the word you tried to use as an example.
The photo is of a WOMAN, not your precious meme. Write the words of your precious meme down, if your fucking memory is so damn awful, then you can discuss and criticise it all you like, or defend it like a scummy asshole of a douchebag, and the image of the WOMAN can be deleted.
Well that’s a tad extremely excessive.
If she complained to reddit about the usage of her picture, I think that at that point they should take it down.
[OT + meta]
imkindaokay:
Leaving aside that you’re still hoping some sort of tu quoque will mute our criticism, I wonder if you realise to whom those comments which are tolerated by the commentariat are offensive, and in what way they are so.
(Mores up the wazoo, Pharyngula has)
He used the images to fap to. You’re insisting this one stay online to defend a company’s criminally negligient business plan. You tell me I wasn’t actually understating your offense.
But if she doesn’t explicitly say “no” then it’s implied consent and you all can haz her tits?
Yeah, you’re right. Reddit totally isn’t a hive of rape apologists.
Well yeah, because you agree that tearing apart bullshit is better than censorship. Which is my whole point.
That’s not the point. Scummy Reddit assholes do not have the right to help themselves to images of women they find. That’s scummy, asshole, douchebag behaviour. Misogyny in action.
Chris Clarke@153
Chris 1, redditor 0. Welcome to pharyngula. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. So much of the moderation here is silent that those not familiar with it seem to assume it doesn’t exist. I do hope this at least MILDLY disabuses them of that notion.
imkindaokay
You keep making a PRATT style argument for self-moderating communities. PZ et al (the local commentariat) have rebutted this style, saying that stronger central moderation is key. Somewhere along here you keep losing the beat. You can steer this rocket any way you like, but the destination is still the same. We don’t like “Freeze Peach” because it is actively harmful to those without privilege, which at this point I must assume to be people like yourself. Pharyngula is not shakesville, with hyperstrict moderation to make a safe space, but it does not tolerate needless bullshit and devil advocatry soley to satisfy pedantic urges to debate of the privileged, dehumanizing others in the process. Before you go evangelizing your pet community and its countless flaws, please consider the vast number of people that community has harmed. Your arguments here are akin to a self-labeled 4channer coming in and saying “But /b/ isn’t THAT bad.” More thought, reflection, and consideration will be required on your part before anyone here loosens what they consider to be well held stances on the hostility and harm presented by Reddit.
imkindaokay:
Once again: What part of “prevention is better than cure” is confusing to you? :)
“…tearing apart bullshit is better than censorship. Which is my whole point.”
riiiiight
Stupid question: Do you happen to own stock in reddit?
“That’s not the point. Scummy Reddit assholes do not have the right to help themselves to images of women they find. That’s scummy, asshole, douchebag behaviour. Misogyny in action.”
THAT
What Caine said. Bingo.
Just when I thought my faith in humanity couldn’t get any lower – here comes another meme from Reddit.
No, it isn’t. Your whole point has been to defend every bit of scummy, sociopathic piece of shit at Reddit. “Hey, people downvoted, it’s all good!” “You can’t discuss a “meme” without the photo of the “meme”, because reasons. That’s not a woman! That’s not a person! It’s a “meme”!”
You’re an asshole and you’re no kind of okay.
I think the best way to prevent this stuff existing in the future is to criticise it now, rather than completely deleting it.
Yes it is scummy, asshole, douchebag behaviour. And it’s good that they’re being criticised. Deleting the link in this instance wouldn’t prevent it spreading around the internet (though, I doubt it will, because of this instant backlash), it would merely delete the whole thread criticising it.
John Morales
I think the quote from Melissa McEwan, slightly modified, fits here:
A PERSONS HUMANITY IS NOT A DEBATABLE ISSUE
Well, no. I have said many many times that subreddits dedicated to being offensive should be deleted.
The beauty…. it hurts my eyes.
Yeah that was pretty funny actually
I’m glad you’re having a good time.
You know how you can tell you’re a piece of shit?
If you weren’t, you’d have shown you give at least one fuck about her agency by writing it as, “If she told Reddit she was okay with their usage of her image, they could keep it up.”
So now that we’ve proven you don’t know what you’re talking about, perhaps you could drop the subject before the hole you’ve dug collapses around your bowler hat.
Discuss.
Yeah in hindsight I didn’t think about the girl in question, and that was very bad and wrong of me. I apologise, that was wrong.
Erm, like a javelinn, only flatter?
imkindaokay:
Many times, eh? Well, then: at what point does this become something for which Reddit as an enterprise bears responsibility and therefore something for which Reddit can be meaningfully criticised?
(Does Reddit itself bear no responsibility?)
OT, but:
Chris, I have a strong suspicion that I am not going to be thanking you for that bit of information when that song is going through my head the entire weekend.
Thank you for that.
Yes, yes. However, reddits which aren’t dedicated to being offensive are free to be as offensive as they like, after all, they aren’t totes dedicated to it.
Bare breasts does not porn make.
…But the text might. Eww.
How am I getting blamed for this?
Always. Just sometimes I think it’s better to leave things up than not. In light of Chris, Caine, and Brownian’s comments, this is not one of those times – the link should be removed/the images censored as PZ has done.
robpowell, please accept this shiny new internet.
–
Kyoot bunneh.
–
Awesome image.
I *snortled*.
–
Better, “unless she specifically permits this use of her image, they should take it down.” The default should not be, “Sure thing, guys; knock yerselves out!”
–
The essence, right there.
–
Ah, resolution, of a sort. Thank you, imkindaokay, for realising you hadn’t considered the individual(s) in question, who were having their agency, autonomy, and humanity treated as a Phil 101 seminar.
A glimmer of decency. I guess we’re lucky a couple of men showed up to make the point women had been making in post after post.
No, actually, I’m entirely okay with ‘censoring’* hate speech, actually. There is less than nothing wrong with Chris bunnifying flagrant assholery or whatever else one might imagine gets done to tear out the worst bullshit.
And FYI, it isn’t ‘censorship’ in a practical sense. Nobody here can stop these assholes’ messages from getting out entirely, only prevent it from getting out on their own privately owned forums. What you’re doing is repeating the very same tired meme that let the subreddits you INSIST should have been taken down, persist. And for all your claims that ‘reddit works’, it doesn’t. Creepshots and Jailbait were taken down because people OUTSIDE reddit started campaigns about it, and reddit was threatened with losing financing. At least some of those people did indeed use SRS. So what? Your claim is that internal policing works, because… and you have no evidence to support your case.
Seriously, this bullshit about how ‘free speech is teh ubar good’? I don’t recognize that version of free speech that everyone gets an opinion and gets to say it because those opinions are all beautiful and important at all. I recognize an armistice agreement – Free Speech is there because control of the government is variable, and if it’s capable of restricting political speech, will lead to a series of escalations between various governments trying to suppress the opposition. That’s it. Not because it’s some high good that a Klansmen gets to spew his drivel at a rally, but because it’s more horrifying that the government, or other major and actually powerful single entities, using their power to prevent the speech of their opponents.
None of that armistice version of Freedom of Speech necessitates a single company or a single person provide these assholes with a forum to spew their garbage. The worst examples DO tend to get held back (Which you’ve already learned from experience). Also, I’m not even necessarily against government censorship of truly hateful bullshit. I am neutral on the matter, pending data on whether it can be done without ultimately being about cis white hetero able dudes banning ‘Straight’ or ‘Cracker’ while actually racist or heterosexist or what have you slurs are left unperturbed.
In other words, yes its scummy, asshole, douchebag behaviour, BUT far FAR be it for anyone to exercise the monumental temerity to criticise the erstwhile moderators of a mere fucking platform for having a likewise monumental temerity of hiding behind a claim of liberty for their payiing clients who they imagine don’t give a flying fuck whether they can use what they pay for with or without a small minority of assholes wrecking up the works.
But. yeah, I’m perfectly convinced you doubt ANY outrage directed against the influence of assholes would do anything at all in a positive direction. That’s been your entire meme.
I may be old fashioned, but your way of thinking makes me think you are aiding and abetting the assholes.
Asher is confusing you for Ichthyic.
Haha.. whoops! Sorry, Chris. If you back up a ways from the monitor, close one eye and squint with the other, your hat and Ichthyic’s shark are tilted at the same angle.
I’ll just stick with that.
Fuck, I could have formatted it better. Well, fuck me.
I don’t either. I just think it’s good when people who are going to say stupid things say stupid things in an environment wherein they’re going to be criticised. I’ll go back to lurking, probably realise I’m wrong in a couple of months or so (as happens every time I disagree here) and then apologise.
There reaches a certain point where, while we need to be prepared for that level of assholery if only because it exists and there are places like Reddit where everything goes at the end of the day (This is not just reddit by any stretch, sadly), there is absolutely no reason to actually tolerate it unnecessarily. At all. Including letting it stand.
*taptap* is this thing working? Did that nym change go through?
imkindaokay@191
Well, this is probably the best we can hope for. Reflect. Consider. Ruminate. Own every reply.
cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble)
While I do love me some free internets, I really feel bad about accepting them for being myself, i.e. pissed off and yelling at some asshole for being a fuckhead.
Xaivius:
It did, and it’s a very nice nym indeed.
Interesting timing – somebody posted a topless photo of myself on /r/atheism last night. Different context – I took the photo myself and put it online knowing well that it would travel far beyond my control. I weighed up the pros and cons and decided that I wanted to make a statement regardless of what I suspected I’d cop for doing so (the message being “If your God is love, why stone a woman for this?” in response to Amina’s situation).
While there’s some awfully predictable sexism on Reddit (as there was when I originally posted it on Twitter), it hasn’t been quite as harrowing as I’d expected. There’s still time though, I suppose. I actually created a Reddit account today so that I could respond to a couple of comments made about me.
http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/1b8h0r/stone_her_to_death_contains_nsfw_awesome_boobs/
(Image about as explicit as the one above – no pixelation, but covered nipples).
IF
Fucking hell.
IF SHE DIDN’T EXPLICITLY GIVE PERMISSION FOR IT TO BE USED IN THIS MANNER IT SHOULD BE TAKEN DOWN. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!
Is that Storm?
joalabaster:
Oh, well I guess it not being harrowing excuses the sexism and the use of your photo. I suppose that “awesome boobs” makes up for scummy asshole douchebag sexist behaviour.*
*Yes, I got the point you thought you were making. Didn’t go over terribly well.
Azkyroth:
I really think a lot of people need mandatory classes on consent. The concept seems to be getting completely lost in too many people.
You do realize, if she’s actually a “girl,” that thread you’re defending because it’s critical is arguably a felony?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
Of course it doesn’t excuse it, where did I imply that?
I’m merely (very merely) stating that it hasn’t been as bad as I’d expected, but I was and am braced for worse to come.
man, I call that a double win!
muhahahahaaha!
Qft @rutee for the cease fire analogy. Free speech is practical not ideal
No you weren’t merely merely stating. this isn’t idle chit chat everything you type has to be conscious and intended.
Is it really your contention that your intent was to waste time?
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist “Starting Tonight, People will Whine:
Between yourself and Caine, Fleur du mal, it seems that there are people in this thread are fantastic at telling me what I’m thinking and what I’m trying to say.
Thanks for giving me credit for my decision making abilities and my capability to express myself.
‘This wasn’t AS horrible as I thought’.
Great, how’s that make it good or okay?
And like I said, I’m waiting for ‘hate speech’ to prove itself one way or the other. Data looks good so far, seems to mostly be used on majority’s hateful bullshit, but we’ll see.
@rutee
Imo hate speech should be seen as class action liable/slander
I think it’s a good point to bring up the notion of consent in this context.
I do think a much wider application of it is due though: the picture objectifies/demeans all women, so (at least) all women’s consent would be needed to publish it. (I would actually go farther, along the lines of “each man’s death diminishes me”, and so does any person’s objectification, discrimination or humiliation.)
I don’t think this applies to FEMEN-type images, because they are instances of women speaking their own minds, using shock- or publicity-value of nudity to call attention to their own point of view which is the very opposite of objectification.
@207 Delft
The commentary that is being added to the picture, and the inferences which the redditors are drawing from it is definitely demeaning and sexist.
I disagree that the picture itself is demeaning. I’m not a professional photographer, but I have a little experience with it, and the framing, focus, and decent depth of field make it look to me as though it was taken from reasonably close range with a proper camera – it certainly doesn’t look like it was surreptitiously taken with a cellphone.
Also, the expression on the lady’s face, the people in the background and, quite frankly, the amount of sunburn she has, make it seem to me that she’s perfectly comfortable being seen topless in public.
So yes, it’s being used in demeaning ways, but the photo itself isn’t. It’s comparable to somebody taking one of the femen pics and replacing the original text with something offensive.
I’m confused – Reddit has a reputation distinguishable from slime?
bittys@208
absolutely. It’s the text that makes it objectifying. Which is why I think the FEMEN images aren’t demeaning. (I started by writing “poster”…)
delft@210
In which case, allow me to apologise for having disagreed with a point you weren’t making because I misread your post :)
bittys@211
No sweat, I didn’t express myself clearly.
Though, even if the woman is comfortable appearing in public and the photo is not per se demeaning, I think publishing such a photo (without text) that focusses on her (i.e. not just a crowd photo) still requires her specific consent. This may not be legally required in some countries, but I think it is morally.
Delft:
No. This is wrong. The photograph is fine, it’s of a woman who is obviously happy and having fun. (In your mind, substitute a man instead – nothing wrong, right?)
Two things are wrong: 1) the photo is being used to objectify and demean all women 2) the text added to the photo [the meme] is an attempt to widen that objectification and get more scummy assholes to join in the demeaning of women.
Er, actually, three things are wrong:
1) the photo is being used to objectify and demean all women 2) the text added to the photo [the meme] is an attempt to widen that objectification and get more scummy assholes to join in the demeaning of women and 3) scummy asshole douchebags at Reddit or anywhere else do not have the right to take other people’s images to further their scummy asshole douchebag agenda.
@bittys 208:
What Caine said. There’s nothing demeaning about the photo itself. It’s the fact that it has been used without her consent and used to demean her is a problem. Someone else’s intellectual property has been used without permission and used to demean all women. THAT is a problem.
@hyrax 215
Err, isn’t that exactly the point I made?
Caine@213/ hyrax@215
Absolutely right. bittys already made that point @208 and I wholly agree.
(I started out writing “poster” meaning image and text, and didn’t think when I re-worded for e-format, sorry).
Bittys, I think Hyrax just got you confused with Delft. Everyone seems to be on the same page now.
Or maybe not…
Need to shut up and consume more tea.
Asher Kay;
It’s true I’ve never seen us in the same room.
I think a possible reason why certain ppl on this thread (I’m not naming names) are coming off as assholes is that they see two kinds of content –
1. Content that provocatively challenges someone’s deeply held convictions, and
2. Content that belittles certain people or categories of people simply for being not PLU (people like us),
as BOTH being “offensive”, and since kind #1 needs to be protected in a free and progressive society, that requires that kind #2 has to be permitted as well. We can be (and must be) smart enough to recognize the difference and give each type of freeze peach the treatment it deserves.
Er, yeah, I think I read the comment as “but there’s nothing demeaning about the picture!” (which there isn’t) and “so therefore there’s nothing wrong with using it.” Sorry. :-/
And that in what way distinguishes majority oppression vs. minority anger?
Have you seen this reddit Youtube video: Explain Like I’m Five: Existentialism and Friederich Nietzsche ,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…
which would approve of the murder of Nietzsche. It is supposed to be a model for teaching 5 year old children. It shows a disgraceful attitude toward people who hold ideas you disagree with. People are free to disagree with the ideas of Nietzsche, that is ok, but unacceptable to promote violence against him or people who value his ideas. In any case I think the video misrepresents existentialism.
I suppose there are many ways to read this video but to me the dinosaur toy taken away from the boy represents the God concept. Ubermensch is associated with the death of God. Some people feel very angry about ideas that show God is a failed hypothesis. It is certainly not an appropriate response to throw Nietzsche onto the road to be killed, especially not just for the loss of a toy dinosaur, especially since he wouldn’t endorse snatching toys from children. It would be OTT. I think it was Sam Harris in, ” The end of faith ” who said that it is a crucial part of liberal democracy for people to be free to voice and criticize each others ideas.
I think the video reads like the Koran, undercover.
But if you don’t want to accept them for being yourself, who do you want to accept them for being?
:D
–
@thoughtcrime (#63):
And if black people went to KKK meetings, they’d stop burning crosses.
Well. Since everyone is probably just dying for my opinion…
Obviously, Reddit has the right to govern their content in whatever way they please. As long as they step in to prevent actual crimes and abuses, they have every right to let people self-moderate their “subreddits” and let them become cesspools of the internet. No one is forced to use reddit, no one has to watch all the shit that goes on there.
Personally I draw the line to when people are actually being hurt. When people’s real information, pictures, etc. gets posted against their will, when people get threatened, when people get harassed in a way that spills to other sites or to “real life”, then it’s crossing the line from generic trolly douchebaggery to actually criminal activity.
As long as that line isn’t crossed, I really don’t care much what goes on in reddit – people are misogynistic douchebags there, it’s horrible, sure, but if they weren’t being misogynistic douchebags over there they’d do it elsewhere. As long as that line isn’t crossed, the best course of action is just to ignore the trolls and let them stay in their circlejerk, and not give them the attention they desire.
As for when that line is crossed, it becomes an issue where freedom of speech is trumped by other, higher priority rights, and that’s also when it becomes the duty of the people providing the platform for the violators to deal with it, contact authorities if necessary, and if they do not perform this duty, they should be called out by the community.
cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble)@224
I accept it as a small teacup. =D
oddly enough, that reminds me…
ever chat with my uncle the catman?
Ichthyic:
Y’know, that sounds a tad suspect…
So. I posted here yesterday evening (comment 193) and I was quite surprised by the tone of the responses that I received (comments 197, 203, 205).
I have been reading Pharyngula on and off for the past few years and decided to participate in this thread because I felt that I was having a timely experience that I could share and discuss with people here. Perhaps I could have put more thought into ensuring that there was no way I could possibly be mistaken for a Reddit sexism apologist (as I seem to have been), but I really did not expect that anybody would assume such.
I understand and acknowledge that many regular commenters here may be quite exasperated and/or defensive when it comes to discussing feminist issues, but I am disappointed to have been met with the reception that I got.
I’m more than happy to be questioned and explore statements that I have made, but I cannot fathom why there was an automatic assumption that because I didn’t strongly condemn my treatment thus far on Reddit (there’s been another arsehat comment there today – I responded with snark), I was suggesting in any way that Reddit sexism (particularly of the caliber outlined in the OP) is acceptable or appropriate.
If the problem in any way is with my decision to take and post a topless protest photograph, I’m open to discussing that also – just let me know if it is the case.
Back to the OP for a second:
No, no–this misses half the context. It’s not only the oblivious dudebro variety of sexist, but it’s also hippy-punching.
You got the “good girl” part right; as noted above it’s an extension of the ‘good girl Gina’ lolmeme.
But it’s also a direct extension of the original ‘college liberal’ lolmeme, shown here. (Apparently this was in turn a response to ‘college Republican’, but anyway.) Not topless, but generally doing the Humboldt State neohippy thing, and depicted by the memebros as sanctimonious, hypocritical, and unfuckable.
So but this here hippy-chick over here, see, is the ‘good girl’ version. She’s the free-spirit manic pixie dream chillgirl. Too
compliantgood to be true, is the subtext.[Now, who the fuck hears the words ‘college liberal’ and pictures either one of the women depicted; that’s an interesting question. Rush Limbaugh?)
The whole “yeah but people are downvoting it” argument misses something, I think.
I was a redditor for awhile. An actively participating one who read the front page every day and commented on a lot of posts on various subjects. I spent a lot of time calling out sexist bullshit and getting into arguments about it with assholes whose main responses to any criticism were “uh oh SRS is leaking again” (I had no idea what SRS was for ages, had never visited it, etc, and was shocked by the implicit “critics of anything on reddit deserve to be kept in a box and demonised and othered” of these reactions) or “you must be fat/ugly” because hey that’s the only reason for opposing the rampant normalised sexism and misogyny on that site, amirite?
I kept going longer than I really felt I had the energy/heart for because sometimes I’d get messages thanking me for saying what they wanted to say but didn’t feel they could. But eventually I lost the will to keep going in the face of all the “UR FAT LOL” and “OMG STFU FEMINAZI” and similar.
It’s good that people are speaking up, but the fact that this shit makes the front page in the first place, and that so many people react so horribly to any woman speaking up about how shitty it is, speaks volumes about the prevailing mood on that site. There are good people, but they’re the minority. The majority downvotes any comment vaguely smelling of feminism, and shrieks down anyone trying to defend women.
Chill girls are totes hot shit over there, though.
deee (#226)
Two things wrong with this.
First, you’re just assuming that consistent, higher-up moderation of misogyny has no dampening effect on it. Maybe you’re right, but, then again, maybe not. If enough places tell misogynists what they’re doing is unacceptable and forbid the use of their media for misogynistic purposes, at least some of the misogynists should change their behavior—if for no other reason than they put a priority on using a service over continuing to spew anti-woman bullshit.
Second, Reddit is for-profit. This means that when they leave the misogyny as is instead of chasing it off elsewhere they’re making money from that misogyny. That is something you should care about. Your apathy lets them afford to keep harboring that misogyny because they don’t have to choose between catering to you and catering to misogynists.
Team – I’m really confused here. Perhaps it’s because wife and I are prepping our house for sale, and I am sipping my 3rd Johnny Walker to aid with the drudgery of closet de-hoarding (reading Christopher Hitchens “Mortality” and got a hankering for JW).
The pic and the meme associated with this post…I don’t get it. What are they trying to say? Are they disgusted because she doesn’t care about politics – and everyone should? Are they glad that she doesn’t willingly give her opinion? Why is she topless and what the fuck does that have to do with anything? Are they just saying that young white women shouldn’t give political opinions unless asked? Or all women? Is she involved in some sort of protest in the pic – and the meme creator is implying that she doesn’t care and is more interested in going topless?
Not only are they likely idiots, their meme is stupid.
I admit freely I often have to have things explained to me slowly and in great detail…but I just don’t get this.
Gonna finish reading through the thread now…but a lot of the discussion is on the use of this woman’s image…it must be obvious to everyone else what this meme is saying.
If it is I apologize. I’m just confused.
AP
AP, I’ll repeat my post @4:
Thanks Caine I must have missed that post…I have a habit of jumping all over the place and often read from the last post up (I don’t know why).
That’s how my wife interpreted it as well.
AP
I’ll paraphrase MLK – laws can’t change hearts, but they can regulate behavior. Reddit can’t moderate misogyny away, but they can make sure misogynists don’t hurt or harass people in their space.
deee @ #226:
This is a really counter-productive attitude.
1. If they’re made aware that other people think being misogynistic douchebags is unacceptable, they won’t have the same unopposed reinforcement that spurs them on, and SOME of them will be motivated to cease that sort of behaviour out of shame.
2. For the ones that doesn’t happen to, at the very least we’ve decreased the number of “elsewheres” they have left in which to behave in this way with other people who support and reinforce their behaviour. I’m happy with the vocal racists being confined to places like Stormfront (and, apparently, eBaum’s world) because they know that other places won’t respond well to (at least) overt racism. They’ve learned it’s unacceptable. I want to see the same happen to (at least) overt sexism and misogyny. The only way to do this is to make sure that the number of places where these attitudes are reinforced continues to diminish by constantly challenging them and shining light on their behaviour.
.
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Also, on an unrelated note, I should apologize for being slightly…own-horn-tooting in my last post on this thread. I really didn’t mean it to come off that way, but on rereading I think it did. Like all “check me out, Uber Champion of Feminism Fighting The Evil Sexist In Its Natural Habitat” and shit. *strikes pose*
I just meant “There Be
DragonsAssholes” really.First, I’d say that the reddit *PLATFORM* as in the tech, is kind of nice in a variety of ways and is 1. much more modern than most of the rather antiquated, non-evolving BBS softwares and 2. makes it easier to digress without derailing. This has lead to it being used for things like Less Wrong to great effect.
Second, I’d say that what with the ability to have subreddits, I’d accept a lot more than I’d accept in a common forum but what is actually happening is just to horrible and most be conquered and removed.