This is utterly bizarre. We’ve got a bunch of people whining for a “cease fire” in the atheist community. It makes no sense at all.
“54°40′ or Fight” required negotiations. Rockets being fired across the border might need a cease fire. A displaced ethnic minority might have grounds for asking for reconciliation in a peace agreement. All these sorts of things involve two parties coming together with specific and conflicting demands on each side, with the goal of resolving them in some sort of compromise.
Specific demands. Get that? It’s important. There’s nothing to discuss if we aren’t bring some specifics to the table.
And that’s the thing: I am making no demands of the other side in these arguments. None at all. They can complain all they want. So what are we supposed to compromise on? I don’t give a damn what they do. Nothing we can argue over is going to compel me to like those assholes — that’s not something you can do in a “peace process” — and it’s quite clear that the feeling is mutual.
And the converse is also true: they have not said what I’m supposed to stop doing or change…well, other than stop being an evil feminist or whatever, which we know isn’t going to happen. It also doesn’t matter what they want, I’m not planning to change anything.
This is a reasonably diverse blog; I write about what interests me, against what I dislike, for causes I care about; no one is going to be able to tell me to stop writing about X. I’m also going to disagree with people, and say so. And yes, the blog content will continue to reflect my concerns about science, liberal politics, feminism, the environment, developmental biology, random weird observations, and whatever the hell strikes my fancy. These aren’t negotiable items.
This blog is not fixated on my hatred of some other person on the net; contrast that with our opponents, who have built an entire forum dedicated to their hatred of all things associated with Skepchick, Freethoughtblogs, and feminism. I do not troll other people’s sites. I do not create anonymous accounts for email or twitter which I use to express my secret contempt for anyone. I do not create sockpuppet accounts or fake accounts purporting to represent my enemies for the purpose of sowing confusion and lies. I do not address women by slang names for their genitals. I do not stoop to making photoshop collages of my opponents’ faces pasted onto pornography or clowns or animals (it would be hard to do, given that most of my opponents are anonymous cowards.) I do not court hate sites like AVoiceForMen for their endorsement or approval.
I do not tell the people on the other side of this argument to stop doing that. In fact, I am quite happy with the fact that they are the kind of corrupt and demented ignoramuses who would continue to indulge in such nonsense. So what is there to negotiate here?
Let’s get right down to the obvious fact: those yahoos hate us because we use our voices to speak out for feminism, social justice for all, and a willingness to advocate for all that as a natural extension of rational thought. That’s the real difference, and the only difference that counts here; and no, I’m not going to change that under any circumstances. It is not something I can compromise on. My silence on issues I care about will not be a bargaining chip.
I don’t care whether it’s an overt opponent or someone pretending to be a neutral party; I don’t give a good goddamn for anyone trying to dictate my causes. I’m also going to roll my eyes at anyone claiming to be disinterested and just trying to heal a Deep Rift, because every time someone protests that they “just want a dialogue”, they’re stalling to preserve the status quo. There is no compromise on equal rights for women and minorities, because any compromises are always seeking to settle on inequality.
There’s not one thing I would change about what I do. And I’m going to laugh in the face of anyone who tries to tell me otherwise.
PZ, are you not aware that your blog has become the laughingstock of approximately a few hundred people who love the word ‘cunt’ because they don’t know how to spell vagina?
Seriously though, those people are serious losers. And misogynistic probable rapists-in-waiting.
I can say that with impunity because Reap Paden has assured me that my words have no lasting power, and the Slymefuckers surely aren’t a bunch of lifeless losers reading every single post on this blog for things to quote mine.
Yeah, like I care what those cretins and sexist scum think. Which is another reason there’s no point to “negotiation”, besides the obvious fact that no one can say what we’re supposed to negotiate over.
You might speak out for social justice for all. But you banned some people on your blog while doing it! You are history’s greatest monster. (also no comments on youtube videos is taking a shit on the American flag essentially. I’m pretty sure Benjamin Franklin said that)
Gee, even to begin negotiations, using the golden rule, they would have to give us the same authority they desire, the same “freeze peach”, the same respect they think they deserve. Since that will never be forthcoming in those items, there can’t be negotiations between equals. End of story. When they stop their hypocrisy, we can talk…
Absolutely. I refuse to be silenced and I don’t think I need to stand where abuse is poured on me, either. The slime-filled assholes have their spaces to rant and scream and carry out their tantrums. I have the right to be in spaces where actual discussions sans abuse can take place.
Kidding aside, those unaware should read Stephanie Zvan and Ophelia Benson‘s posts on this ‘cease-fire.’
This ceasefire thingee’s been doing the rounds for a few days now. How do you have a ceasefire or compromise with people whose entire argument boils down to, “shut up bitch1!1”? It doesn’t matter how many tweets/blogposts/photoshops they produce I keep coming back to those three words(sometimes with “or else” tacked on for good measure). If that’s all they’ve got why would anyone want a ceasefire?
PZ, you don’t want to be nice to these people? You BIG MEANIE you!!! Why, you might get a slapping from your sunday school teacher.
(Keep up the strong words!)
From this weird article:
To be quite frank, any potential “allies” who have a problem with the fact that women are people will not be my allies ever anyway. And consequently any movement that harbors such people or considers misogynists and MRAs valuable potential allies for a common atheist cause, will have to go on without me.
Oh, and to whoever clown wrote this piece, look up argumentum ad temperantiam. I certainly believe that the Twatson and Peezus hate brigade is wrong and their supporters can be dissed and ignored , there is no golden middle ground here where both “sides” could happily meet in compromise.
“cease fire” = “shut up and let things stay as they are”
Based on the conversation I had today, apparently atheists shouldn’t have anything to do with “social issues” as it will only drive away everybody who is dis-interested in them. We can do that stuff on our own time, just not while calling ourselves atheists or from our own blogs where we talk about atheism or something.
‘Cause the dictionary.
Presumably “shut up forever” is what they all want from us.
Yes, that’s good reading posted @ 7. We’re supposed to make peace with this?:
I don’t think so.
If they don’t anything to do with social justice issues, they can talk about whatever they want.
If they want to oppose social justice issues, they can do that too: I can’t stop them, I’ll simply regard them with contempt.
I don’t see why this is so hard for them to understand. Other than that they’re really stupid.
Actually, in some seriousness, based on the link it might be interesting (well, for me anyway) if some independent party did take a look at the situation and just tried to figure out what heck the problem is, lay out the supposed grievances etc.
Most of the ones you hear are of the ‘wounds caused in the ensuing mele’ sort, which is just used to bolster the anti position. The original problem is still elusive (To me anyway. Or perhaps I’m just having trouble accepting that some people hate the sniff of feminism that much and closing a couple of threads during Elevatorgate can spark off all this. That’s where I generally put it at least. Others may differ)
So, their language might be of the articles of war sort and that may be of little use. But if they want to try and figure this thing out; sure
There’d be an awful lot of rehashing of Rashomon-esque versions of events on blog comments taken particular ways, misread, misreapeated, retweeted. And then politics for afters, so good luck with that.
Chairman Myers has spoken! The march to take over ATHEISM™ will continue!
(Takes over the slyme colored glasses. Oh…)
Meeting with inflated arseholes just lends them credibility. Send them some Preparation H® instead.
Muz:
It’s this ^.
First, please do not call it Elevatorgate
Second, that was just a catalyst. Some event was going to set this shitsorm off. Many of the people who are part of the pit were already not happy with Pharyngula, Skeptchick or bringing up any issue that smacked of feminism. A throwaway line was used as a means to show just how “hysterical” women could be. And this just happen to fit into the story line that groups like AVFM spin, that women make up stories of oppression in order to victimize men.
Yeah, a video made by one of the main members of the pit is being displayed at AVFM. And the person who made it is a long time shit stirring internet troll.
Ophelia mentioned that, and I looked. 46 minutes long? Loaded with ominous music and pompous narration? I could only bear a short exposure, not going to watch all that crap.
It’s more evidence that those kooks are sick and obsessed.
Yeah. Trying to be nice to people who hate your guts is sure an exercise in futility.
Heh. “Ceasefire”. Fuck that for a game of two-up.
Listen, dudebro-magnons, the entire reason there’s a “war” at all is because a few of you couldn’t fucking tolerate even the thought of harassment policies at conferences (much less discussion or implementation of them), then you couldn’t tolerate the thought of atheists opposing sexism, then you couldn’t tolerate anyone in the “movement” being fem-positive in any fucking way, shape or form due to a litany of vapid excuses and gossamer arguments. This has led not only to pompous fucks like Thunderzer0es melting down endlessly over Freedom and “names” such as Kirby/Shermer invoking the goddamned Nazis/Stasi/McCarthy in response to mild criticism, but to a sustained, years-long campaign of (ready your iron-o-meters!) actual harassment of numerous members of this community (including but not limited to abuse, open threats, parody accounts, endless trolling and obtuse JAQing off, entire websites set up purely as insult-vectors such as x-rated photoshops), to the point of some of them limiting or even ending their involvement in it. And now, a few of you have the goddamned gall to demand we lay down our arms, that we stop firing, so – what? So you can claim the high ground as brokers of peace?
TL;DR? The reason FtB, Skepchick and anti-sexist atheists and skeptics are your fucking “enemies” at all is because you all decided that we were and have been behaving as such for fucking years.
You want a cease fire?
Cease firing.
End of fucking story.
I read Ophelia’s post and noted that Chris actually watched the miserable video and he’s much braver than I am. I didn’t so much as click play. I get physically sick from such vileness. Yep, just a weak woman, that’s me.
:eyeroll:
There is no way to “discuss” a “cease-fire” when one group is saying “leave us alone” and the other group is saying “no”. There is no conversation there, no middle ground, nothing to discuss.
I don’t believe for a fucking second that this ‘ceasefire’ offer is anything other than a ploy, at least on the part of the most egregious assholes anyway.
It’s attempt to gain the high-moral ground, to be able to say “We tried, they’re just to dogmatic/hysterical/religious to listen to reason!” rather than any real attempt to find common ground.
If there’s one thing that the Pit’s obsessive observance of Ftb and Skepchick has done, it’s shown them that feminism and social justice are not things that we will compromise on.
This is not a good-faith offer.
Who the hell wants ‘peace’ with these creatures?
To accomodate them, to give an inch to them, to permit attention to in any way validate them, would be evil. They are a plague on humanity and nasty, sleazy things.
Peace talks didn’t work for Chamberlin. We mustn’t make the same mistake.
I’ll take the risk of using a phrase often used “some other place” and just say”MEGA DITTOS”
here I was thinking that this was all about being rational and honest and stuff. how can anyone even suggest to have a cease fire or a peace? When what they are asking is to stop arguing and advocating for the same principles that in the 17th and 18th centuries resulted in revolution in which reason and freedom were prime forces and established a democratic republic
there will be NO! 3/5 persons! ALL ARE EQUAL!
uncle frogy
Arbor, please do not make these silly analogies. The facts are damning enough without using such outlandish rhetorical devises.
And the same for unclefrogy.
Lee Moore posted in Ophelia’s thread (linked in #7) that some of the slymepitters had “grievances” which should be discussed. He was challenged to give one grievance. “Brave Sir Lee ran away.”
The pit’s grievance is that the people they want to shut up don’t shut up. We talk about equality and social justice and other nasty subjects which the pit doesn’t want to admit have any relevance to atheism or skepticism. And we don’t shut up like good girls and maginas.
arbor:
They are not things. They are not monsters. They are not other. They are people, whether you like that or not. Many of them are married, many of them are parents, most of them are thought well of in their communities. Don’t make the mistake of othering them. People with such toxic, vile attitudes are *everywhere* – they are your neighbors, relations, acquaintances and even friends in some cases.
Rodney:
Well you know, if we’d just lighten up on using cunt and bitch and stop having hysterics over jokes about raping and tossing acid in someone’s face, everything would be fine!
Janine, don’t presume to advise me on this. I’ve travelled a damned long road to get here. I know this type of people far too well – they are very bad and are not fit company for anyone I’d ever associate with. I think that this type of smarmy lying monsters have been responsible for the most of the misery on this planet and have done what they could to prevent health, happiness, or progress.
Rodney, at the pit, the slymies spend a lot of time complaining that the banning of people from blogs and the blocking of people on Twitter amounts to a tyrannical suppression of free speech. In other words, they are complain that most of us disregard them simply because they have a dissenting opinion.
Caine – I am well aware that they are people. I don’t like several things about myself, and certainly am not proud of everything that I’ve done, but I do try to change and become a better man. These people do not.
I suggest the reply given in the extended version of Return of the King.
Arbor, do you think I like them? I also happen to think they are reprehensible. But to compare this propose “cease fire” (Which very few people have any support for.) to Neville Chamberlain compromising with Nazi Germany is the height of absurdity.
arbor:
That does not make them ‘things’. This isn’t about them, you know. It’s about you. You’re trying to other them because it makes you feel more comfortable. It’s a form of denying reality and it’s not at all helpful. Rather than yelling at Janine and telling her to get back in her place, try thinking about why othering people is wrong.
Also, you really cannot state positively that none of these people will ever change their attitudes and opinions.
@Janine: Hallucinating Liar – 7 February 2013 at 9:01 pm (UTC -6)
Sure, they like to make those statements about “freeze peach” because they have learned that if they phrase things that way people sometimes listen. But I think Rodney has put his finger on their truer concerns. They are angry that outspoken women have gained purchase in the skeptical movement and they wish to harass these women and their defenders out of their circles. PZ is right that there is nothing pro-social-justice skeptics can do, short of shutting up, that would satisfy the slymepitters.
Cosigned, PZ. People have been talking to Lee for quite some time now that he’s making a bizarre false equivalence of the ‘sides’ who are ‘infighting’. As far as I’m concerned, the war metaphors of ‘cease fire’ and ‘peace process’ are utterly overblown and ridiculous. ‘Forced eviction’ might be more apt, in that the abuse and harassment these people are continuing make them unfit to inhabit our online spaces, so we’re reclaiming it for ourselves by kicking them outside. What they do there, I would have no interest in whatsoever, except certain places are being used to organise attacks on the places from which they’ve been excluded and the people there. *spit*
Slymepitter: What are your demands?
PZ: Stop using violent, sexist, racist, homophobic language.
Slymepitters: (rage face) Arrrghh, that’s oppression. Freeze peach. conspiracy, eleventy hundred!!!11!!1 We will nevar surrendar!!!
Atheist, it fits into the narrative that they are the true defenders of freedom. And the only truly strong and independent women sides with them.
As a plus, their whining about professional victims dovetails into the narrative of groups like AVFM that women make up stories about oppression and rapes. So there is a lot of overlap between the pit and MRA groups. (Woolybumblebee.)
janine:
what part is too strong a device? was it 3/5 of a person or something else?
what I do not understand is how in the name of reason and freedom of inquiry and freedom to advocate some are asking that it be stopped so as not to stirrup conflict?
are you asking me to speak more politely?
I try to avoid using the easy fuck you and fuck all of them to kind of language but it is difficult I find these issues stirrup my emotions quit a bit .
uncle frogy
I remain cautiously optimistic that when (not if) the talks fall through I may be closer to understanding the absurdities coming out of the other side. I don’t see any common ground that anything lasting can be built on, and what few desires I’ve seen from both sides seem to be on entirely different ideas of what could even be gained ( no free childcare* vs stop photoshopping our heads on things). There also doesn’t seem to be anyone who could actually speak for either side or enforce a truce. Hopelessly naive and doomed from the start.
@Janine: Hallucinating Liar – 7 February 2013 at 9:20 pm (UTC -6)
Janine, that’s absolutely true. I consider it chilling that this subgroup of skeptics, the slymepitters, is connecting themselves with the MRA’s. The MRA’s are a dangerous Hate Group.
MichaelD–
I’ll give you a hint. I tried engaging over on Vacula’s blog, and the whole thing devolved into an argument about “Why can’t I call you a cunt????”
So yeah…that’s the level of shit we’re dealing with here.
Chilling in more ways than one. I’ve seen numerous comments, at Skepchick, Ophelia’s, and I think Stephanie’s too, from women who feel like they have a lot to say but don’t want to take up blogging because they aren’t prepared to deal with that much harassment. I took a break from blogging for a while, as did Jen McCreight, and misogynist and transphobic harassment helped shift Natalie Reed’s priorities away from the atheist/skeptic movement entirely.
For folks who claim to love free speech, they seem remarkably unconcerned about how much they’re inhibiting others from speaking at all.
What FossilFishy said at 25.
However, my cynicism is perhaps even stronger. I’m predicting that any future protest about harassment will be met with claims like “you could have stopped this with a ceasefire, so you must want it.”
They’ll try to shift the responsibility for their abuse on to the victims because social justice advocates didn’t capitulate to their farcical demands for “talks”. Therefore it was all in the control of the social justice people whether or not harassment continued. Therefore it will all be PZ, Rebecca, Ophelia and Stephanie’s fault if anyone gets death threats, etc.
As others have said, I also think there will be claims of high moral ground, to try to rope in fence sitters. They will omit the harassment and claim that they tried to stop the fighting, rather than that they just refuse to stop harassing people.
I also agree with everyone who is asking for a list of the ‘pitter side’s “grievances”. What (other than the freeze peach to use the C-word) are they looking for? I cannot fathom why saying “Don’t harass people with death threats” or “gee, women are people, treat them with a bit of decency” is so wrong.
It strikes me that they are demanding that victims must give them a space to bully. If you don’t invite them into your home and give them your hand to play “stop hitting yourself”, then you are impinging their freeze peach and being big meanies.
Want a cease-fire pitters and friends? As everyone keeps saying: Stop harassing people with threats, photoshops, insults, obsessive behaviours, fake accounts, twitter insult campaigns etc. Stop firing.
Here is a short piece by the “Southern Poverty Law Center” about the violent tendencies of “Men’s Rights Activists”.
The Skeptical tent should be big enough for people with differing opinions on the role of women in society. Acknowledging differences between the sexes is not the same thing as sexism.
SallyStrange: And that’s exactly the point. It’s the same as what happened to Anita Sarkeesian. The privileged masses see an encroachment on some sacred territory of theirs, and they react with concentrated vileness to drive the intruder out. It’s not enough to make it clear that they aren’t welcome, that they don’t belong here. It has to hurt so much that they never think to try it again, and it has to be public enough that others will see what would happen to them if they followed in the same footsteps. “Look at what we did to her,” the implicit message says. “That’s what will happen to you, too, if you don’t stay away.” Go after them so hard that they won’t think of fighting back or trying again, and make them an example to others.
@ Georget–
No. The Tent should not be big enough for people who don’t want to admit that I’m a human being, thanks.
P.S. Georget, Fuck you.
A summary of the “war”:
“I think women are human beings.”
“You hate men.”
“I think men who hate women should stop it.”
“You’re a professional victim”.
*MRAs bomb feminists*
*MRAs demand ceasefire*
What a fucking joke.
@Caine # 13
Ugh…I didn’t really know what the slymepit was until I follwed your link (to the Stephanie Zvan article about the slymepit). I mean, I knew what it ‘was’ from reading these threads, but not what it WAS.
I didn’t (don’t) even really know who Stephanie Zvan is…but…fuck. I respect reason, and good argument. I respect passion. I respect determination to learn your own faults and become better. I respect civility (until it’s time to not be civil). I respect many of the commentors here; their passion and their efforts.
Reading the few pages I read there insulted whatever exists in me which strives to be a better human. I am lesser for having gone there.
I don’t know what to say…I was just fucking disturbed by that link. Is that par for the course? Disturbing.
AP
It’s pretty clear to me that the vast majority of women are human beings Cyranthe2nd. Peace.
There’s a very reasonable and simple compromise: PZ can agree to not do any horrible things he’s been charge with doing which he has not actually done and wouldn’t do anyway. That might eliminate many of the complaints, right there.
And it’s so easy…
@georget – 7 February 2013 at 9:47 pm (UTC -6)
But apparently, it is not big enough, because as soon as a certain level of women entered the “tent”, the slymepitters started harassing them in an effort to force them out. Now the slymepitters are becoming more and more extreme. This “ceasefire” is an amusing idea, but we’re just not stupid enough to take it seriously. We’ve been hit too hard already.
Do I want to know what minority of women are not human beings?
Yeah, but calling someone ‘sexist’ is a crime against humanity.
Libertarian houses are all made of glass.
georget:
Wrong. The ‘role’ of women in society is one that has been debated for thousands of years and it all generally comes down to the same old business: women are not fully human, they require control and the cooties of femininity must not be allowed to touch the men, oh no.*
“Acknowledging the differences between the sexes” is code for sexist shit. Full stop. If you’re planning on arguing that crap here, I’d suggest you don’t.
*Rather than put your ignorance on parade, why don’t you try to correct it? Try some reading: Misogyny: The World’s Oldest Prejudice by Jack Holland and Manhood in America: a cultural history by Michael Kimmel are both excellent.
Janine:
Why the uppity feminazi bitches and cunts, of course.
@ Georget,
Maybe to you. You might want to check what this whole thing is about, because from where I sit, a woman said, “Hey, maybe harassment is not okay” and all hell fucking broke loose. And the “fight” is now about whether the Pitters should be able to harass, stalk, threaten and intimidate women in this movement or not. Those are not mere “differences of opinion.” Your false equivilancies are misinformed and wrong. This isn’t and has never been about talking about gender differences, and even mentioning it is a fucking ridiculous red herring.
I am TIRED of people like you coming in here and thinking you know shit when all you do is show off your ignorance on this issue. And I am really fucking tired of people who have harrassed, stalked and threatened women I look up to and love being treated (by people like you) like they have some rational points, and we are just having a jolly chummy academic argument. Ask Jen if she thinks being harassed off the internet was just a “difference of opinion about the roles of women”. Ask Ophelia. Ask Rebecca. Fucking ask any woman in this thread.
Because this “fight” has been about and remains about my fucking dignity as a human being. My right to inhabit atheist spaces without fear of reprisal or attack because of my gender. My right to be represented by other women. And all your attempts to re-define and re-frame the argument doesn’t make the other side any less sexist or wrong.
P.S. Take you “peace” and shove it up your ass. I don’t want peace at the cost of honesty about real issues that affect me in real life.
“The role of women”?
The “role of women” varies according to each individual woman, and the “role of women” is exactly what any individual woman decides it should be for her.
In other words, there is no such thing as a “role” for “women.” The very idea of one unified role to be assigned based on gender is restrictive and irrational and oppressive.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is an authoritarian. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not using reason and logic to arrive at their conclusions. Thus, they have forfeited any place in a skeptical movement, and they have forfeited any place in an atheist movement that values rationality and freedom for everyone.
In conclusion, georget, fuck you.
AP:
Oh yes, it’s par for the course. It is disturbing, and highly so.
I fucking hate the phrase in bold. The implication being that placing limits on women’s participation in society is a perfectly valid point of view. Idiot
@georget – 7 February 2013 at 9:54 pm (UTC -6)
As long as you reserve the right to consider some women subhuman, we will not be in a state of peace.
And I see I should’ve refreshed before posting
You think they’ll have enough self-awareness to refrain from just saying “look what you made me do!”?
Freedom’s just another word for/
Delineating roles for women…
No worries, bargearse, a little repetition can’t hurt…
Large swaths of our society consist of women who are happy in the traditional female gender role paired with men who happily participate in leadership roles. The millions in these ranks, along with pretty much all of the Islamic world, can be leaders in religious skepticism. Infighting forwards nothing. Foul language is also counterproductive.
Ohhhhhh, poor li’l georget. Sweetpea, take your sexist shit, stick it back up your arse, and leave. Ta.
georget, being an asshole with your sexist comments is counterproductive. Calling you “asshole” is simply descriptive.
Word salad with a sexist dressing.
My favorite.
For desert, I was a shit sundae with a rancid cherry topping.
“The role of women”
“The role of women”
“The role of women”
?
Nope. Saying it three times didn’t make it more comprehensible.
Speaking just for myself, I should like to audition for the Role of Gays in Society. Perhaps Tony would like to try out for Role of Black People in Society?
Can’t say I didn’t try.
Yes, we can.
Oh, come on Josh, you know exactly what georget meant by “the role of women”… it means that a group of upper-class college educated straight white men should get together and debate among themselves what women should and shouldn’t be allowed to do in society. There’s no fucking way women can simply decide for themselves without the input of geniuses like georget. Sort of like a casting call, so I guess sort of like auditions after all.
@georget – 7 February 2013 at 10:30 pm (UTC -6)
If you want to work with conservatives and Islamists we have no problem with that. But instead what you’re doing is attacking us for not being conservatives or Islamists. Don’t delude yourself that this will work.
Josh:
*waves* Oooh, may I please audition for Role of Bisexual Mixed Race Poly Genderfluid People in Society? Pleeeaaase?
anthony@70 – haha. janis. indeed.
cyrano@63 – I’d quote part of that to say “good job, excellent, etc.”, but it’s too good to quote one part and leave the rest behind. Tremendous!
:-)
You obviously never tried actually thinking about what it means to even accept the idea of there being a “role for women,” so yes. Josh is correct: you aren’t even trying.
Is that the stench of an argumentum ad populum? As well as a rather hilarious, telling contrast of “female gender role” with “leadership role”? An acolyte of Shermer?
Yeah, people who fit traditional gender roles can be skeptics, and even leaders among skeptics. And? Does this make patriarchy a good thing? Are you going to bother noting that you can apply the same “people seem happy with it” and “we can make good use of the people who like it so don’t rock the boat” arguments to religion? No, I’m sure you won’t. Because you are a good True Skeptic.
Giving feminism visibility is not nothing. Exposing sexism to the sunlight is not nothing. Attempting to ensure that the atheist movement is one where women feel comfortable is not nothing. The only one fight towards nothing is our opponents. They want nothing. Or, more accurately, they want nothing to change. They want everything to stay as it is right now, and will fight tooth and nail to prevent a climate that is more hospitable to women. Hence the entire reason why we laugh at the idea of a “ceasefire”.
Citation needed, you smarmy, moronic little weasel.
Caine, yes, you may. But there is a price. You must also parade around for thirty seconds in stereotypical “native” drag to satisfy the white folks.
Don’t feel bad. I have to go on after you and wear every different costume from the Village People until the straight folks say, “He’s so artistic.”
FUCK YES.
There can be no compromise with people who actively wish you would cease existing.
Oh, crap. Now I’m gonna get stuck with the boring role of old white cis-gendered middle class male in society, aren’t I?
At least I get to own the theater and keep the bulk of the receipts.
Love the song, great1american1satan. Love Janis Joplin. But Kris Kristofferson wrote the song.
(Turns off the pointless pendant switch.)
Let’s discuss the role of men. I really think they’re awfully emotionally volatile and prone to angry outbursts. I think the best role for men would be doing grunt work in factories and on farms. Service jobs should be more highly paid because they require more emotional intelligence, and obviously women should hold those prestigious jobs, as well as controlling 90% or so of all governments and major corporations.
Yes, PZ! You are just raking in the dough!
(Mixed metaphor for the win!)
Josh:
Well…alright. But no dancing!
This is why women must dress modestly.
(Reads the rest.)
Oh…
Countdown to slimy pitters claiming I support a matriarchy with labor camps for men in 3… 2…
Josh, do you think we can talk Caine into doing the old Chief Illiniwek routine?
SallyStrange, they have spun larger narratives with less substance.
If Caine won’t dance, we’ll just find some willing and desperate white woman, dress her in stereotypical buckskins and beads, and make her dance. The rubes won’t be able to tell the difference.
Janine:
No. 30 seconds of parading. That’s it.
Curse you theater owners and your villainous extortions! :shakes fist, runs away sobbing:
If you need a shoulder to cry on Caine, feel free to call upon the larger skeptic community.
Georget
It was a good effort, but you’re going to need to step up your hateful word salad game to match the likes of comradebob, who truly set the gold standard for incotherent bigotry. You’re getting there, though.
Great, georget has moved on to creepy.
Agreed. And this is so fucking common. I honestly wish that people who deem themselves above it all, objective observers disgusted with conflict of any kind, would actually bother to listen before intruding in and pretending that they are the enlightened one who will find the middle ground where the solution lies. I wish that people who aren’t part of a conflict would stop trying to end the conflict in order to make themselves feel more comfortable, by barging in under the assumption that both parties are wrong. Both parties have a point. Both are at fault. Both have been victimized. Both deserve punishment. Both deserve accomodations. And, of course, all in equal measure. Both Sides are Just As Bad and Just As Good. Just As Right and Just As Wrong. So the Neutral Saviors just have to tell them to both stfu, find the answer somewhere in the middle, wipe their hands off and call it a day. Because it is far easier than determining if one side is closer than right than the other. If one side is more victimized than the other. If one side is clearly more unethical/immoral in its behavior than the other. Finding that kind of shit out involves getting too dirty. Getting in the thick of it. Getting political. Why, if the Neutrals did that, they would be Just As Bad as The Sides! No thank you. How would maintain their sense of superiority, their sense of objectivity, their ability to look down their noses at everyone who dared to care about things? Heaven forbid if their examination of such things accidentally resulted in them Taking Sides! No, it must always be Both Sides, Just As Bad, Answer Somewhere in Between. That is the only solution. That is the only way.
Ultimately, I say: Fuck the Neutrals. They are so frequently ignorant of the situations that they interject themselves into, and are so fucking certain about their perception of the nature of whatever conflict they want to stifle, so fucking smug about not being the kind of person that cares about such “petty” matters. That works when we are talking about a fight over music preferences or the latest blockbuster, but not when we are talking about human rights . Because, that is what all those “petty” political debates boil down to. That is what these “petty” debates about sexual harassment and the various ways women are subjugated are about. If you are Neutral about that, that is damning enough. But Neutrals coming in, telling Both Sides that they are over-reacting and just need to shut up and live and let live? Fuck them. Fuck them for their callous, ignorant, simplistic, bullied-blaming bullshit.
Damn, he really is just like a comradebob knockoff, isn’t he?
Don’t you creep on me, you slimy assclam in smegmarmalade sauce. Your attention is not wanted in any way, shape or form. You are a contemptible sexist of the worst stripe.
Greetings
Maybe a bit of clarification is in order. Since I am the man who authored the post you are displeased with I thought I might say a few things.
For starters,
As the guy behind this project I have told to all who will be participating that equal rights for all is not something that will be compromised on, not now, not ever. Part of this project is to increase the appeal of our community to any who wish to join it and last I checked that included minorities and women.
As far as why I am doing this,
I do a lot of outreach work, mainly attempts to get fence sitting college age folks to come over to our side of open atheism. Its rather difficult to pull this off when some of the first impressions of this movement can look like threads on 4chan. There has to be a better way for atheists to disagree, thats what this project is all about.
While you are of course invited to be a part of this project I can understand if you dont have any interests, I do ask that before you pass judgement on this project that you at the very least give it a chance. I know there is a great deal of skepticism about something like this but if we can change the minds of even one atheist we have done something worthwhile.
Thank you for reading and thank you for talking about this.
Well yeah. It’s just concern trolling writ large if the proposed neutral mediator is honest.
Otherwise, it is a ploy as FossilFishy suspected at 25, in better prose than I had mustered on the same point previously.
Georget the First: “BAAAAAAAW, why you call me sexist for saying that women should have set roles in society?”
Georget the Second: “BAAAAAAAAW, why you mean to me, I do too think most womenz are humans?”
Georget the Third: “BAAAAAAAAAW, why you alienate those useful patriarchy lovers, and use mean, bad words?”
Georget the Fourth: “BAAAAAAAAW, why you don’t accept my superior logics?”
Georget the Fifth: “You folks are such crybabies”
Thank God. I am so reassured that the Slymepitters have no interest in resurrecting Strom fucking Thurmond.
Can you also reassure us that you’re not looking to reopen the slavery debate?
Fuck Lee, ‘equal rights’. What fucking century are you posting from.
Thank fuck. Nobody’s compromising on equal rights. What a fucking joke.
How nonsensical. In order to increase the appeal of the community to minorities and women, you wish to promote peace between those who with to increase the appeal of the community to minorities and women, and those who actively resist any attempts to do so.
How does that work, exactly?
“with” should be “wish”
There has to be a better way than online harassment, sexual objectification of women who speak out against sexism, photoshopped, graphically pornographic images with one’s opponent’s faces spliced in, rabid insistence on abusing the principles of free speech to spread sexism and racism and other bigotries, yes.
So why are you telling us?
What are the odds? Oops, yep.
I know, I know, we’ve been wasting our time on treating women like human beings and other social justice matters. And if it sounds like 4chan, I think you know where to find the 4chan/atheist overlap. It’s over where they demand the right to call people cunts unmolested by anyone disagreeing with that.
Lee Moore, the problem is with them.
A simple pronouncement, I know.
While you are at it, ask the slymies to have all featured works at A Voice For Men taken down. And have them renounce the members of the pit who are involved in men’s rights groups. After all, equal rights must not be compromised.
$10 says Lee did a drive-by. Any takers?
Lee Moore, you were answered at Almost Diamonds. You were answered here. You can reach out to those who wish nothing more than for all the bitches and cunts to settle down, shut the fuck up and stop requesting to be treated as human beings all you like. One more time, because it doesn’t seem to be getting through, this is the slymepit sentiment:
There’s a link to that post at the slymepit at Almost Diamonds. How about you head over there and calmly tell them why they shouldn’t harass, make rape jokes, joke about throwing acid in a woman’s face, make disgusting photoshop images, draw things like Rebecca Watson bound, gagged and covered with semen, stating she’s an object available for two dollars and that they really shouldn’t toss around ‘bitch’ and ‘cunt’? Go ahead, we’ll wait. We’ve been waiting on this for quite some time.
Hey folks! Great news! Unequal rights are off the table! A position we can all agree on!
That’s fantastic, Anthony K! What a relief to know that, if I spot someone trying to put “tolerance for misogynists” on the table, it’s just my ladybrainz misfiring once again!
Sallystrange
It’s what he did at Opehlia’s, and Stephanie’s, and Lousy Canuck too. Why would he do anything different here?
Awww, poor misunderstood Lee.
From the post PZ links to:
An earlier blogpost:
Oh, false equivalence. ‘Tis the bread and butter of a Neutral.
Excellent! Maybe we can all also agree on how guns aren’t an essential food group, how kittens are fuzzy, and how bleeding is not good for your health. Then we can all agree enough on stuff so that we can all just go back to being atheists. Until the dictionary-thumping atheists realize that we are agreeing on things that aren’t strictly atheism and have a fit, opening brand new Deep Rifts for every Dimestore Diplomat in atheism to stare at in terror and desperation.
Anteprepro:
:Applause:
Have a cupcake with a tentacle on top.
Georget –
I would certainly like to see what evidence you have for this, as it impossible to establish whether women in the “traditional female gender role” are happy, since one of the ‘traditions’ of the role is endless submission and self-sacrifice to the point where women aren’t sure what emotions they actually feel themselves, but are nonetheless absolutely aware that they’re *required* to keep their mouths shut and keep smiling, smiling, smiling for the happy “leader”. Attempting to escape can be a death sentence, as the late Jocelyn Luch demonstrates.
So, Lee, care to come back and explain to us how rape threats are equivalent to calling out bigotry? I didn’t think so. Asshole.
Well, you know. If people haven’t been paying attention, it’s an easy $10.
I simply wonder what planet these people are born on, who miss the blatant asymmetry in the battle of “rape threats” vs. “labeled sexist”. I mean, really. This is supposed to be a matter of mudslinging and civility, and even then, on terms of mere politeness that Pharyngulites flatly reject, the Internet Diplomat still manages to muster up an example from each side that clearly shows that the MRA side is far, FAR more vile? And yet, despite illustrating it unintentionally with the examples, it is a fact that is simply swept under the rug, in order to continue to complain about the conflict itself, instead of daring to place blame where it clearly deserves to be placed. Is threatening to rape someone really just as “uncivil” as calling someone sexist or racist?
Seriously, fuck Neutrals.
Peace process? Fuck that shit. I have no interest in associating with any of the ‘pitizens. None whatsoever.
Trying to switch off my geeky side. I keep reading that with Zap Brannigan voice.
Thank you kindly.
*suddenly wants to see a pastry with tentacles made on one of those competitive cooking programs*
PARTISAN! RADICAL! EXTREMIST! MEANYPANTS!
The sad part is, I do as well. It is very hard for me to find myself looking at Zapp Brannigan dialogue and my own, and find that I am basically nodding in agreement. Oh well, that’s what happens when the real world is more cartoonish than a cartoon.
Forgive me if I’m forgetting, it’s been a lot of years and a lot of chemicals since the 1970s, but… doesn’t this mean you two can actually share that costume?
(I’m just always looking for ways to save a buck…)
Is there a corollary to Rule 34 for pastries? Because seriously, if you can think of it, somebody has made a cake or a cupcake of it.
I think I’m going to steal meanypants for my own use. Bwa-ha-ha, I’m diabolical!
You know what my wardrobe lacks? High heeled shoes with images of tentacles and cupcakes on them.
Janine:
Aaaah fuck. Now I have Zapp in my brain.
Eeeee, no! Women don’t dance, er parade in pants!
SallyStrange:
Oh gods. Want. They’d go fab with my 3 piece suit.
Hey now. That sounds sexy. Watch out or you’ll get a queue of your own!
SallyStrange (#109)
Thank you. That’s the exact fucking problem with Lee’s moronic project.
It’s true!
The role of women in society??!!
Fuck that.
I hate that phrase.
Women have no “role”.
They have independence and freedom to choose for themselves what role they want to take. There are no predetermined roles.
****
As for a “ceasefire”, that’s a pathetic fucking request. No one on “our side” has done anything wrong.
We want harassment policies at conventions.
We want a world where women are not called cunts and bitches.
We want a world where women are not sexually harassed or threatened with violence or rape for expressing themselves wherever they choose.
We want a world where people of
any gender expression
any race
any sexuality
any ethnicity
any nationality
any religious belief or lack thereof
any age
any level of mental ability
any level of physical ability
ARE TREATED AS EQUALS.
Contrast that by the pitters.
Abbie Smith.
Thunderf00t.
Reap Paden.
Wooly Bumblebee
Justin Vacula.
and all the rest…
These people have engaged in a sustained pattern of harassment and bullying for years.
They hang on every word of PZ, Stephanie, Jen, Ophelia, Surly Amy, Greta, Rebecca and more.
They stalk them.
They photoshop images of them.
They call them cunts.
They call them bitches.
They dismiss their concerns of sexual harassment.
Whatever redeeming value these fucking scumbags have has not been on display yet.
I won’t other them.
I won’t call them monsters.
I won’t dehumanize them.
I will criticize them.
I will curse them.
I will not give one inch to them.
I will not compromise with them.
SallyStrange:
My standard “oh gods, I have to be social? With people?” outfit. 3 piece men’s suit (black), tailored to fit, red silk tank top, 3 inch spike heels, black fedora.
Lee said:
If certain people are concerned about certain discussions looking like “threads on 4chan”, certain people should stop emulating threads on fucking 4chan.
If college age people are who you’re after, you (like various FtB’ers and Skepchick already do) should be attempting to make 50% of those people (i.e. the non-males) feel like they’ll be welcomed. Instead, you’re chumming around with Reap fucking Paden and siding with a portion of the atheist community that’s made it its fucking business to drive women away if they happen to make the slightest noise about “equal rights”, as it were. Women have already bailed or curtailed their involvement because of these bastards, for crying out loud – and who knows how many young women aren’t even going to bother, with the atmosphere as toxic as it is, thanks entirely to those who declared themselves enemies of feminism (or just declared feminism their enemy)?
Want a cease fire? Talk to the people who fired first, provoked by nothing more than a pricking in their precious privilege.
To repeat myself, if there’s a war on, it’s because your reasonable buddies over there decided to declare those over here their enemies and they haven’t stopped firing since.
And Lee, if yours is yet another drive-by comment you won’t follow up on, do us all a favour and don’t make any more.
Yes. Note, however, that Lee phrased it as increasing the appeal of the community to everyone, with “women and minorities” as a throwaway side effect. It’s telling. He’s in denial about the fact that you can’t increase your appeal to every demographic all at once. If you appeal to women and non-sexist men, you have to alienate some sexists.
Tony @38: That reminds me of the Bukowski poem.
a challenge to the dark
———————–
shot in the eye
shot in the brain
shot in the ass
shot like a flower in the dance
amazing how death wins hands down
amazing how much credence is given to idiot forms of life
amazing how laughter has been drowned out
amazing how viciousness is such a constant
I must soon declare my own war on their war
I must hold to my last piece of ground
I must protect the small space I have made that has allowed me life
my life not their death
my death not their death…
All this sarcasm warms my heart.
@ Caine – I am so jelly right now! I want a 3-piece suit that’s tailored to fit me some day (as there is no other possible way that a 3-piece suit would ever fit me).
If, hypothetically speaking, the only way to do that was to find common cause with misogynists, then my choice would be “fuck atheism.”
Fortunately, it’s those same misogynists who have been holding atheism back from wider approval by the people whom it can do the most good. The sooner those misogynists get kicked to the curb, the better for atheism.
SallyStrange:
It doesn’t have to cost a lot, either. I got my suit at men’s wearhouse (they do make a small fuss about a woman invading the dressing room, but will give way) for fairly cheap (just get one that almost fits), then find a local seamstress or tailor to do the fitting. There’s a woman in Bismarck that has a small shop and does all kinds of custom sewing, she did the alterations for me for a very reasonable price.
Nice, thanks for the advice, Caine! Suddenly it seems more feasible and less pie-in-the-sky.
Chris Clarke:
You are awesome.
That is all.
heh. My dressiest clothes are the one pair out of the two pairs of jeans I have that doesn’t have holes in the pockets, one of t-shirts I bought myself rather than got 2nd hand or free from a dot com, and my black “Dolphin Restaurant on the Wharf at Santa Cruz” hoodie.
But I work that outfit, lemme tell ya.
Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop; I become angry whenever a grotesquely obese person cuts me off with their battery-powered shopping scooter at the grocery store, which I no doubt have paid for through food purchase surcharges. The maneuver in and of itself is not the cause of my angst. It is the contents of the cart’s basket which inevitably includes Little Debbie Snack Cakes, hamburger, and a case of sugar soda that disturb me. Our common skeptical nature can overcome our differences. It is normal for some humans to judge.
Unity is possible.
Unity is not possible with georget because he is a misogynist fat-shaming shitstain. Any movement that contains people like him will be hostile to women and fat people. And probably other classes of people who’ve done nothing wrong except have experiences that georget does not share, since bigots always multi-task their idiocy.
Jafafa Hots:
I believe that, oh yeah! Oh, and holes in jeans are still fashionable. :D
PZ or Chris! Could one of you check to see if ‘georget’ is a sockpuppet for comradebob?
I was at a bus stop once and a guy gave me a hard time because I was getting a disability discount.
Even though the doctors and the judges all said I had multiple disabilities, on most days I can walk without appearing disabled.
So he looked at me and instantly and angrily diagnosed me as a full of shit leech on society and said so repeatedly despite my attempts to explain.
I’m wondering if by any chance it was georget.
Our latest troll is not happy that his money is being used for unworthy people..
My black and empty heart breaks and bleeds for him.
Not when they’re in your pockets and you lose your keys and bus fare. :(
He does have bob’s “deadpan obtuse lackwit” routine down pat.
I’m sure a ceasefire would be welcome. A bit of respite from getting shelled on a daily basis would be pretty fucking nice for the (mostly) women being targeted.
I think ‘Ceasefire’ does kind of give the wrong impression, if one side is dropping bombs, while the other side is ‘retaliating’ by shouting “STOP DROPPING BOMBS ON US!”…
But yeah, if the slymepitters were to stop attacking the FTB/Skepchick bloggers and others, I guess you could say there was a ceasefire.
But reconcilitation? Peace? No… no.
That Deep Rift you can see; that’s not a gulf of disagreement that can or should be pulled back together.
It’s a fucking trench.
And it’s been deliberately dug, deep and wide, to separate out people like the slymepitters.
As long as they hold the abhorrent views on show so far, we don’t want to associate, or be associated, with them at all.
Jafafa Hots:
It was most certainly someone who shares georget’s limp brain syndrome.
Jafafa Hots:
Ah, no. Those are the definitely non-fashionable, bad holes to have in your jeans.
It helps me to think of Caine as Adora Belle Dearheart:
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/reena_jenkins/26987617/73376/73376_original.jpg
Spike heels an’ all.
Kagato @158:
That’s the thing: Lee and the chorus of bropologists are characterising this divide like a paper cut, when in fact it’s an amputation. Except in this case, the diseased, slymey limb amputated itself.
“What bombs? Where? I see no bombs. I demand evidence. Bitchez be lyi–oh. Those bombs? Why, they’re teeny, TINY bombs! Probably couldn’t even blow up a goldfish! Maybe you should build a bomb shelter! Yeah, everybody should have a bomb shelter and if you don’t have one it’s not OUR fault if you get blown up! Anyway, occasionally getting bombs dropped on your head is just part of life. Grow up! Argleblarglblarhghhh.”
Lofty:
I’m flattered. Just call me Spike.
Note to self: must get cigarette holder of awesomeness.
Great, then you wont mind a bit when I judge your fat shaming comments as the opinion of a bigot.
What gives you the right to police peoples diet, and what does it have to do with this post?
Going on to claim that you have somehow paid for the scooter means you are also a callous entitled creep.
Oh yeah, and, can’t forget the most important part:
“How dare you accuse me, ME! of dropping bombs on you! Just because I laugh with and backslap the guys who do try to blow you up doesn’t mean I condone dropping bombs in any way, you vile assassin of my pure and unsullied character, you!”
Look, I have the right to these bombs, I have the right to throw them, and if they hit you it’s your fault for being in the way.
Except if I threw it directly at you, in which case its your fault for being someone I wanted to throw a bomb directly at, as is my right.
Now stop getting your intestines all over my atheism, dammit.
georget:
Please do us all a favor and never post here again.
At the risk of introducing philosophy, where did the scooter come from Tethys? The flying spaghetti monster?
Caine @153: Not so’s I can tell.
Troll philosophy is an oxymoron.
Though now I’m imagining a remake of the Python Skit where the condemned prisoner chooses his manner of execution, and selects being chased off a cliff by topless roller derby girls.
In the remake, me and a hundred of my fattest friends chase Georget off the cliff mounted on our scooters.
Janine:
I shall join you in the bleeding of the hearts. My black heart and yours bleed together with unity. Together we shall produce >.< that much blood.
Unity Chris, Unity.
I’m late to this, and I haven’t read the comments in entirety, but …. more publicity of the Deep Rifts™ might be exactly what the doctor ordered. What better way to reform the Movement™ than to show just what has been happening to it? Ophelia Benson’s recent post comes to mind, as a single example.
This, of course, assumes that the public examination includes, on the record, the sordid behavior of absolutely contemptible people.
As long as the conversation brings that to the conversation… I mean really, since this community was recently compared to the Phelps family on this very site, perhaps this community would be well served by an opportunity to bid those folks adieu, instead of trying to send them to hell.
I honestly don’t know whether or not further exposure would help the parties who have had such abuse heaped upon them. I do, however, sincerely hope that public exposure of just exactly what has been going on will help.
But then, maybe I’m optimistic. :/
Just shut up already, georget. You are part of the problem which we’ve been pointing out here. You contribute nothing of value to this thread, or to any discussion in which you may take part, so please cease to take part in any.
Chris
He sure does a good impression, though.
I like this unity idea.
Maybe we should extend it even further so that atheism and skepticism can embrace other viewpoints with which we also disagree, like creationism and white supremacy.
Dalillama:
Methinks georget does not take hints well.
georget improves:
Introduction of Fantetis philosophy and FSM
Ugh. Now you’ve done it, Chris.
You just became “the guy who wants to drive his opponents over cliffs to their deaths”.
I had to peek over at the Slymepit just to see what it’s really like. Sure enough, it largely seems to be an internet-wide hunt to find quotes from their opponents to reinforce their opinions.
If it’s not on there already, I expect it will be soon.
georget improved:
The Church salae readers.
Mmmmm delicious bison.
Raise you hand if you want unity with people like georget.
Damned dirty hippie wants bison bacon!
*your* hand.
Sorry, busy digging. The trench clearly needs to be deeper and wider.
Tony, how else can we atheists put up a shiny happy front that will attract people to our cause?
Chris:
:falls over laughing:
“Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both. But it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.”
–
Morgan FreemanFrederick DouglassThe last time I saw you hand doing something was in The Evil Dead 2. You hand was not very helpful, to say the least.
Janine:
Hey! This damn dirty hippie wants a bison burger. They’re delicious.
Ok, I want to amend my comment to include what I read after reading the thread. It took a while, because … wow. I thought I was optimistic. I need to correct that — I’m not anymore.
@ Lee Moore:
Have you even read the threads linked in the OP? Or the ones in the comments? What could be more appealing than rampant abuse? We’re totally losing people because we won’t let them freely harass people! Is that really your position?
Thank you for being a disingenuous idiot. You should be ashamed to call yourself a critical thinker in the face of all this evidence. You know, the ones linked in the OP and in this thread.
@ georget:
Unity in the face of the enemy, right? Wait…. who’s the enemy? Do everyone a favor and stop trolling.
@ Original Topic:
Lee Moore and georget would make excellent witnesses for the side of common decency.
Bison burger with bacon!
Damn it, that’s what happens when you take a moment to proofread. The conversation has moved to something more relevant.
Like bison burgers with bacon!
Wait, Chris…. this is a new rift. I don’t like the taste of bison meat.
Also, I’ve never tasted bison meat. But you’re still a monster!
We are all monsters here!
Kagato:
I think you may have missed recent developments. We have a Fortress now. Complete with a moat. There are even crocodilians. See The Lounge icon :) They are ferocious.
I am equal parts amused and squicked out to hear they are trying to use my violent action movie tropes mash-up comment to support their obsession.
Because coming into a room of upset, hurt people and doing your best to upset and hurt them more is exactly the same thing as metaphorically brandishing a weapon at someone who is actively hurting you. Or something like that, just writing it made my head hurt a bit.
One of my favorite moments ever was at a potluck membership meeting of the Ecology Center in Berkeley in the mid-1990s. My friend Lee Sprague, who was on the board of directors of the Ecology Center at the time, was talking to me about the business he was starting up: Native catering. (Lee is Anishinabe, though he claims that he has a great^N grandmother who was a European princess.) Corn soup, bison, free-range frybread, that kind of thing.
A white hippieish woman overheard us and started lecturing him about veganism. “That’s horrible! you shouldn’t eat bison! They’re endangered!” Lee pointed out that the bigger the market for bison meat, the more bison there’d be, because ranchers would have an incentive etc.
The ensuing conversation was great fun to witness, with Lee being very patient and the woman slowly listening and the whole thing turning from a contest of complex differing privileges to something approaching mutual understanding.
That’s unity. That’s discussion. If either Lee or the woman had shouted their opponent down, used sexist or racist epithets and strategized how best to overrule their opponent, it would have been warfare conducted by other means.
That’s what this “cease fire” is about: warfare conducted by other means. It’s a strategic ploy to get people to feel guilty and shut up.
Strategy is easy. Comity is hard.
Bison meat tends to be drier and less fatty than beef. It doesn’t roast as well as beef but does quite well in pot roasts, stews and braises.
Bison burgers with bacon, and Little Debbies for dessert!
Do we have a chef in the Lounge? Despite the awesome people here, there is still a trifle too much slime for my tastes. I want to enjoy my bison burger with bacon SANS slimeypitness.
I propose that upon completion the
trenchgorge be named “Head-Smashed-In-Misogynist Jump.” * I want that sucker so wide that should they try to jump the gap the weight of your typical slymmer’s bigotry will cause them to hit bottom long before they reach our side.*Comedic riff on 172 and 186 and a reference to a Canadian First Nations heritage site and in no way intended to promote or condone actual physical harm to anyone, no matter how egregious I find their beliefs.
Chris:
Yep. Standing Rock rez is doing well with bison, mostly because it’s highly featured in all the eateries in Prairie Knights Casino. More ranchers in ND are doing bison too, which is good. If you’re going to be a carnivore, it’s a good option instead of beef.
Tony:
Sophia. Michelin star, no less.
Tethys, the slymies are going to obsess. They do not know what else to do. While it is not easy, you should try not to worry about it. (I will be honest, I would be very worried for quite a few days, against my better judgment.) If it were not that, it would be something else. If they have to, they will sift through old threads. Or make up motives. (Did you know that Greg Laden will be let back on to FtB when things have died down enough? Seriously.)
I am kind of surprised they have not dug up that line from Cath that was used against us a few years ago. (No, I will not say the line or use Cath’s current moniker. If the slymies want it, they have to dig.)
Caine: this one’s for you. (Though everyone else can share.) Took this while writing a piece on a bison ranch in NorCal. Rancher and I hung out in her truck bed surrounded by fucking Pleistocene megafauna.
Janine:
Oh, they did that one ages ago, back when it was all on Sciborg.
Perhaps I should have put it this way, I am surprised they have not revived it.
That was really fucking unpleasant. And I felt so bad for Cath.
Chris:
Awesomeness. I well remember the first time I was fully sniffed up and down and around by a *massive* bison. That was a hell of a thing. Part of the brain was all aaaaaaw and the rest was all run away!. Just have to be careful not to startle them, their eyesight is terrible.
Brokeback Bison?
Elements among them asking for a “cease fire” is of course welcome news. It means their losing, have noticed it, and may even be worried they might start thinking why this is happening.
Elements among them asking for a “cease fire” is of course welcome news. It means they’re losing, have noticed it, and may even be worried they might start thinking why this is happening.
“They” aren’t asking for a cease fire. This idiotic idea is Lee Moore’s.
I said it before: the rift is not deep enough, nor wide enough. But I do hope that the idea of shutting them out and marginalizing them is actually taking hold. Some of them may in time reform or learn something, but I do not hold out hope.
Why don’t you follow the link in the OP and scroll down to the comments. You will find that many slymies are quite adamant against taking part in this “cease fire”.
Funny thing, the last person who tried to broker a “peace” also took fire from all sides. He ended up helping one member of the Horde to set up bot blocker for Twitter for use of blocking tweets from slymies and the parody accounts they constantly set up.
If oolon can learn the hard way, maybe Lee Moore also can. Or maybe not.
Moore’s journey through this stuff could definitely be interesting. I hope he sticks with it.
I have noticed that there’s a tendency now to paint FTB as the extremists, as the outlier. “They’ve ghetto-ised themselves” seems to be the implication. It’s fairly transparent othering really, but because certain people won’t shut up about it I guess the impression develops that they might have a point (and disagreeing with near deities like Shermer apparently produces many a sharp intake of breath).
That does seem to be the campaign message now though “What’s FTB’s problem? Why are they out on that limb? Why don’t they come back to the mainstream atheism fold?”. Hopefully he sees through that propaganda. It could be hard though, the volume of verbage seems heavily weighted one way.
On the bright side (if you can call it that), this fuss can only suggest one thing really. If this were some small blog network of feminist atheists chatting away, no one would give a damn. They might cherry pick a blog post or two for some lulz content now and then. But no, to necessitate repeating how weak and terrible and excluded FTB is all the time, it must actually be quite the force.
Muz:
Oh FFS. No, it’s not interesting. It’s stupid and wrong. Did you even bother to follow the links? Read the damn comments? Try reading https://proxy.freethought.online/almostdiamonds/2013/02/02/what-is-more-important-than-peace-nsfw/ and maybe you’ll get a bloody clue.
54.40 or Fight at least left us with a handsome quilt block, still well used after 160-odd years! Anyone fancy designing Arseholes in Cyberspace? Or betting how long it will last?
http://lizsquilts.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/54-40-or-fight-a-history-of-a-block/
Caine: That’s exactly why it’ll be interesting. There’s a few people trying to build bridges, be peacemakers, stay neutral etc lately. I get why. But after a certain point you can’t be neutral about this stuff anymore. The general mood of people perifferal to the whole business that “öh it’s just some naughty 4chan-esque scamps. Ruffle their Denis the Menace hair and send them on their way” can’t stand anymore. The process of enlightenment is always interesting to watch for me.
Well, I think they are ghetto-izing atheism and skepticism by making them clubs for privileged white men.
*not caught up*
No, they actually don’t want a ceasefire.
What they actually want is the internet equivalent of international agreement on the Spanish civil war which meant that Hitler and Mussolini just kept doing what they did anyway and those who later became the allies ceased all support for the Republic.
Obligatory disclaimer: No, I didn’t call you Hitler or Mussolini, pitter, I’m not saying your bombing Guernica.
I think we can do without the war metaphors, Giliell. They’re overrated anyway.
I think I can choose my own “metaphors” myself, thank you, vaiyt.
BTW, there’s a difference between a metaphor and a comparison, so I suggest you learn that before you go on chatizing me the next time.
Here! Here! Agree with PZ one hundred per cent. Keep the Enlightenment going.
Oh, and I guess you’ll consequently go out of your way and tell everybody stop speaking about that pesky “war on women” anyway.
PZ #20
These people are neither sick nor kooks nor crazy, insane, demented, foolish, hysterical, nutty, rabid, feverish, blind, deaf, retarded or dim-witted.
However they are creepy, vile, scurrillous, misogynistic, rapey, abusive, bile-spewing, revoltingly hateful, butt-hurt bullies who act as the vanguard of the kyriarchy. Ableist jargon does no one a service.
@Lee More #105
Do the words “golden mean fallacy” or “accomodationist coward” mean anything to you?
I’m so glad Lee is offering an out akin to “Say uncle and they’ll stop the half-nelson, titty twisting, noogying, and swirlies.” And by glad I mean perplexed.
Klatu:
No, it doesn’t. Neither does homophobic jargon, Klatu, so you might want to re-think that use of butt-hurt.
I’m not sure about the benefits of likening our problem to specific situations in a specific war… but I suppose it’s fine if you don’t run too far with the analogies.
Because that’s how analogies work?
Because it means that I don’t have to describe things very long but people who know that situation will know what I’m talking about.
Vaiyt:
Since when did you become arbiter of analogies, Vaiyt? Knock it the fuck off. Your decision to jump on Giliell when other people have used war analogies in the thread, talked about us being bombed, and so on, makes it clear you aren’t all that interested in stopping such analogies.
@105 said
…couldn’t the same be said on behalf of Atheism+ as a ‘project’? Or is that different somehow?
@Caine
I wasn’t aware it was homophobic. Won’t happen again.
@klatu #234
I wasn’t either. My first understanding of the term was of someone who had been “spanked” or perceived that they had, and were sore and grumpy about it. I hadn’t considered that it was homophobic.
just a tiny thought from my tiny pea brain:
I’ve noticed since the very early days of my involvement in the Movement™ that there has always been a fiercely libertarian undercurrent to the whole thing. To these people there is a direct link between “free thought” and the rejection of any and all enforced order on any aspect of our culture or society.
At the end of the day they confuse the rejection of dogma and irrational thinking with the right to reject any kind of restriction on their behavior or the behavior of others. In other words, it’s either a police state or it’s anarchy, and there is no middle ground, no appropriate level of restriction on their conduct.
The reason they don’t consider their bile to be sexist is that they view feminism as one such restriction on their right to “free thought” which trumps all, so when they make sexist remarks or attack feminists they do it with vile rhetoric to make a point.
Furthermore the Libertarian ideal of sink or swim, each person is fully responsible for their own lot in life, feeds their view of feminists in the movement as professional victims who deserve no special respect or sympathy.
Unfortunately for the Movement™, when Vacula and Paden are long gone, some other nitwit will be drawn to atheism and skepticism for the exact same, misguided and poorly informed reasons.
They want to limit the discussion so that more anarchists will find the movement the same way they did. They want the face of atheism and skepticism to be libertarian, and now that it’s starting to appeal to social progressives as well, they are having a nervous breakdown over it. I say don’t let up, the sooner the Movement™ is thought of as socially progressive and not fiercely libertarian, the better off it will be, and the faster it will grow.
My complaints about this brouhaha have concerned the wasted time spent on this stuff.
I’ve been reading Reaps blog entries from pre-A+ days, and they were pretty good. Shoot – he even included posts ranting against misogynists. Why he suddenly turned batshit insane is a mystery to me – and I’ve not bothered trying to read the blog entries where he starts going insane (I’ve also not bothered reading letters from clergy justifying their raping of little boys – some things I choose to not subject myself to). So there are 6-8 months of baloney there rather than a month of reasoned disagreement about A+, followed by 5-7 months of quality posts. Such a loss.
PZ’s waste has been in his trying to argue or defend himself from whatever BS they try to throw at him – threatening to take him down to their level (did not happen). To PZ’s credit, he’s continued to post about his usual stuff all along and hasn’t become mired down in the gutters/trenches. I was just hoping that it would be over by now. Sadly, it is not.
Ceasefire? What a strange framing of the dispute. The only thing going on here is that two different schools of thought regarding secular morality are currently in disagreement with one another, and both are being advanced by different methods.
So, what exactly do the camps need to cease? Disagreeing with each other? That’s not reasonable, nor even possible. One is wrong, let’s work through it with rational discourse.
Oh but before we get down to opening that debate, note that ‘rational discourse’ does not include a campaign of harassment, abuse, smear attacks, impersonation, and all the other forms of non-dialogue that one camp – and only one – has pursued. Let us also note that the rationale for said campaign stems clearly from the school of thought endorsed by that camp.
Does that say something about the validity of said school of thought? I think so. We can judge the morality by the actions it condones; to me, it is a giant billboard saying ‘our take on secular morality is self-evidently wrong’.
Cease / fuck off, slymers.
The things the slymepitters want are 1) our silence and 2) to benefit by being associated with us. For me, this whole thing has been about wanting to talk about feminism, criticize bigotry, spread awareness of the horror of rape culture, and to disassociate ourselves from bigots so that women can feel safe joining us.
It’s not a “cease fire” they’re asking for, it’s an unconditional surrender.
Here’s a golden comment from an anonymous shit-weasel on Ophelia’s blog calling hirself “CreepyClownOphelia“:
They attack Ophelia and Stephanie and Greta on a daily basis like this.
That shit weasel got that moniker from Mykeru’s latest 46 minute YouTube missive.
re: “butthurt” There’s some amount of disagreement about it. Some say homophobic, some say no, it refers to someone pouting after being spanked ( as in debate). Amanda Marcotte, not one to defend homophobia, uses it.
That said, to me its better to just not use it because frankly, if it offends someone I have respect for, it’s not worth quibbling over.
“Cease fire”? Just stop shooting. No “dialogue” necessary.
Is A+ “destroyed”?
Apparently. Said shit-weasel didn’t provide any evidence, but that’s okay, unless you’re criticising Saint Shermer.
Well, they did get the woman who suggested the concept of A+ to stop blogging for a while.
Onwards to Victory!
Yeah I always took it as “getting your ass kicked” but then at the Dojang we used to say if you’re kicking someone’s ass you’re kicking too low, so I tend not to use it…
Presumptuous little shits, that’s them.
Fuck off, Lee.
Lee,
So why should we talk with people who have by their actions and words created an atmosphere hostile to women?
Apparently, the right to call women ‘cunts’ outweighs the comfort and consideration of women. Is there really anything to debate on this?
Here’s the thing: we want them to stop being awful to women, to stop the ‘cunting’ and ‘bitching’. To stop the obsessive stalking of FTBloggers, to stop being so antagonistic to any hint of an anti-harrassment policy, as opposed to discussing policies on their merits. Is that really too much to ask?
What do we get out of a dialogue with them? I doubt we get much. They have indicated they have no intention of mending their ways. Some have even raised their own black flag and called ‘no surrender’.
What they get out of a debate is the kind of attention-seeking validation they crave. They are, after all, the folks who go bananas at the thought that we might be ignoring them, screening them or banning them.
So from where I sit this looks like an unequal trade. We get bugger-all and they get to count coup on us.
Better to walk away from this, I think. Let them exhaust themselves. The community is changing, as evidenced by the uptake of harrassment policies. The community is moving on and can afford to leave these knuckle-draggers behind.
Interesting use of the word ‘fence-sitting’. because from where I sit you are engaged in an unpleasant fence-sitting exercise when you should be taking sides against a legion of mean-spirited toads.
I think you have to look at who acts most like 4chan. Whose language is the most sexist. Who does the majority of the photoshopping. Who most treats these arguments like a point-scoring game of trolls. I think you’ll find the vast majority of those folks on one side and not the other.
Nonsense, this is the best way for atheists to disagree. Loudly, publicly and openly, with no prisoners taken. I’d rather not do this behind closed doors and I’d prefer not to show civility to sexist speech, thanks.
Butthurt always seemed to me to have a rape connotation to go along with it’s violent and bigoted forms. So that’s pretty much three strikes against it in my book and why I don’t think it’s appropriate to use, unless, of course, someone doesn’t care about perpetuating rape culture, bigotry or permissible violence.
De-lurk.
I’m a woman who is a gamer and an atheist. In the last several years, I have been made to feel like a subhuman by the very groups that I advocate for and support. I don’t blog, rarely comment, and can’t play online without an androgynous or masculine gamertag and PSN id. These atheist cease-fire folks don’t want me in their unity party any more than the “there is no sexism in gaming” club does. That’s been made perfectly clear.
So, here is my comment to the cease-fire folks: My skepticism and atheism was not arrived at in spite of my vagina. In point of fact, I don’t think any of my sexual organs were involved at all. I was too busy hiding them. Including me means including my vagina without disparaging me for having one, telling me that the woman attached to it is not sexy enough, or joking about what you’d like to do to it. Want me in the movement? Make me feel welcome and safe in the movement. Otherwise, go fuck off.
I’d rather play the end of Mass Effect 3 again than cease-fire. And I fucking hated the end of Mass Effect 3. Fucking Bioware and deus ex machina bullshit endings. Long live Marauder Shields.
As always, thanks to the horde for fighting the good fight. Thanks for letting me rant for a moment. I hope it’s not quite a starfart. That would be embarrassing.
Re-lurk.
I thought today was the day. I thought this would be the thread that I would find a cogent reason to want to have a “ceasefire” with a group of misogynists, that today would be the day when I would see one make a good argument.
I am shocked that it didn’t happen.
But I did learn that I want a bison burger, and I also learned that I automatically switch to a Zapp voice in my head when I read about those horrible Neutrals.
And Lee seems to be operating under the “Balance Fallacy.” I guess that doesn’t matter.
@ 252
I lurk often as well, and I agree that there shouldn’t be a ceasefire. There isn’t a need for a ceasefire, it doesn’t make sense. Hell, I find that when I became an atheist, my need for social justice increased. I try to oppose sexist ideas because it is incumbent upon me and others like me to make this life better for everyone. If that means I’ve got to give up a few privileges, so be it.
Seeing the vile attacks, the threats, the disgusting hate coming out of these assholes, like in Anthony K’s post at 240 of a response this very morning on another blog, makes me feel the need to speak up more often and louder.
Finally, the goddamned ending to ME3…. fuck. But like you, I would rather do anything be in a group that makes “peace” with these assholes. To echo many, the goddamned rift isn’t nearly deep enough.
I support this message 200% To what ends will a cease fire bring? what would be the purpose of any conversation?
Erikthebassist
Their position, a quintessentially Randist one, appears to be summable up as “God isn’t the boss of me and neither are you! So there! *rasberry*” Also, “I don’t wanna share and you can’t make me! It’s mine! Mine, Mine, Mine!” The movement? “Mine Mine Mine!” The internet? “Mine, Mine, Mine!” etc. I far prefer ‘Mutual Coercion Mutually Agreed Upon.” We all agree that certain behaviors are unacceptable, and then we collectively discourage those who behave that way, and everyone* is happy.
*Or at least everyone who isn’t a total asshole, and really fuck them; they can learn to not be such assholes and then they can be happy too.
Considering the firing is all from one side then why is Lee spending any time with us trying to talk us into a cease fire?
Why, it’s because both sides do it:
I don’t see the issue in the second paragraph, though. Won’t anyone from the rational community who reads “Reap Paden is sexist” simply go to his podcasts and listen to, say, the one in which he calls Stephanie a cunt over and over, and easily conclude that Reap is one of the most progressive people ever and that he’s simply being smeared by the Free Thought Bullies who nobody listens to anyway?
Dalillama, Schmott Guy #256
This also explains the Freeze Peach idea: “You shouldn’t be allowed to shut me up because that’s not letting me say what I wanna say!”
BTW, Dalillama, do you have a Nize Hat to show you’re a Schmott Guy?
Fuck that shit, I’m reloading….
Thanks Caine and all about the ‘butt-hurt’ explaination. I was going to go all off in defense of using “butt-hurt”, and then I read your and other reader’s various reasons why. Now, I will attempt to strike it out of my vocabulary unless talking specifically about GI issues. I never linked it to any “homophobic” comments. For me, it was always a way that most people could relate: Hemoraoids, exlposive diarrhea, and pain via anal sex (because heteros have anal sex as well). Yes, a succesful identification of “cis white male privledge”
However, I definitely understand how it could be used as a word to silence dissent via graphic imagines of rape (i.e., get his in prison) and a homophic response to “icky gay butt sex”. After lurking for 7+ years on Pharyngula and other Seed and FtB, I felt it was a moral imperative to create an account and display that the conversations via “deep rifts” are having a positive effect. Those who say it is ripping about the community are those who are afraid of change, and losing perceived status. Those who care about the community are listening and working to make it a better, safer and strong place for us.
P.S. You can have my A+ when you rip out my heart and feed it to the libertarians for an afternoon snack.
There can’t be any intellectually honest disagreement about what meanings exist in the wild and to what extent. The evidence is available and anyone can find it.
It is.
And it also does. But that’s polysemy. Anyone who says “it refers to Y and therefore cannot refer to X” is pretending they don’t English.
Fixed. When Amanda Marcotte spends a few decades living as a gay man, I’ll take her opinion seriously.
On a slightly more serious note, in case georget is still ‘trying’….
Take your phrase:
(I realize that should be comic sans and gumby, but I’m a lazy git.)
Now, let’s change it to:
Tell me, does that have the ring of fairness and equity to you?
Now, to make it more accurate:
Yeah, that works better.
Oh yeah, and the slaves ‘seemed pretty happy in their traditional roles too’….assuming you were asking the white masters, or asking the slaves while the white masters were right there to hear what was said.
Awww, did diddums get his widdle feefees hurt?
Lee Moore @ 105 –
I just refreshed and that is your single comment. You haven’t responded to any of the ensuing concerns or questions. I also checked the previously linked Almost Diamonds post where you also made one comment and failed to address the ensuing questions. Finally, I went over to the Slymepit and ran your name through the search engine. Unless you’re using a pseudonym over there, you haven’t posted anything over there at all. And the only reference to you besides this cease fire (they’re agin) is the promotion of a video you did in August with Paden & Vacula said to be “voicing criticism of A+.”
Care to explain yourself?
Huh. I had not thought of that before. Another extremely good reason not to use it.
Oh no, that’s georget’s little subtle reminder that we chicks are supposed to nice! and demur! and delicate! and not say bad words to their superiors. it counterproductive because it hurts his ears that women aren’t dainty enough.
That’s easy enough: chicks need to shut up for the good of the Movement(tm). No Freeze Peach for you!
Signs are pointing to no.
On top of all the harassment and bullshit from the ‘Pit, the claims that they make about FtB aren’t even true.
“Oh, it’s a hive mind!” Funny, I’ve seen numerous posters disagree with PZ and the other bloggers. As long as they’re not total douchecanoes, they don’t tend to get banninated. Also, wouldn’t the ‘Pit be a hive mind as well?
“They’re humorless.” I laugh out loud numerous times a day reading the blogs and comments. What are they reading?
“They’re not accepting of the white menz!” I’m a white cis straight male. I’ve never once been made to feel unwelcome here in any way.
I’ve never felt unwelcome here for being a white cis male. I’ve felt unwelcome for being caught acting like an asshole, but that’s only just.
This sounds odd, but it pisses me off that butthurt is such a sexualized, homophobic term – it could be a perfect term for the painful and undignified sensations associated with a sudden fall at an ice skating rink or banana peel, – not seriously injured, but very very huffily upset at the public nature of the event.
I obviously won’t use it (and actually haven’t much in the past), but it would be so nice to be able to have some such words that WEREN’T contaminated by societal homophobia and sexism.
And in other news, I would like a pony.
Also, for the record, I have less than no interest in a cease fire. I would like more heavy machinery to make the Rift deeper and wider. If the dirt from the Rift could be used to build a ginormous wall, that would be nice too.
During the heyday of the Operation Rescue craziness in the early 1990s, I lived across the street from an abortion clinic. It was in a suburban residential neighborhood and also housed a shelter for homeless pregnant women, a meals-on-wheels program, and a lot of other useful stuff, and the consensus was that OR would never hit it. One Saturday morning we awoke at 6 am to discover OR protesters in our street. Then the clinic defense groups arrived, just individuals, walking into the crowd. And more individuals. And more. And then there was some signal, and they all linked arms and took 5 steps back and the clinic was open and the OR people encapsulated. It was one of the most inspiring things I have ever seen. Spouse and I spent the rest of that very very cold winter Saturday with a huge line of clinic defense people streaming through our apartment to warm up, pee and rest. We made a lot of hot chocolate and coffee.
I would like to be able to form a human shield around Ophelia, Jen, Greta, Stephanie, Rebecca, SurlyAmy, and whoever the Targets-Du-Jour happen to be.
I, likewise, innocently associated ‘butthurt’ with the discomfort & embarrassment of falling on one’s arse in public… 8-/
*trudges off to clip another word from personal vocabulary*
@ Lofty–
Sooo OT: But can I just say how much I adore reena_jenkins and her adorable podfics? Because yeah–TO. BITS.
@Rodney Nelson – 8 February 2013 at 12:39 pm
Maybe he bothers our side precisely because he knows the other side would fire on him should be get in their way. Maybe on some level he is aware that they would treat him exactly the same way they treat Ophelia Benson.
@ Illuminata–
Reminds me of the beginning of the Gay Rights movement circa 1950s, when some conservative organizers were super concerned about how straights would view gay men, and so wanted all the male protesters to cut their hair and wear suits, basically to try to convince straights, “See? We’re just like you!!!”. A lot of the protesters refused, say essentially, “This is who we are. They need to get used to it.” Nearly tore the movement asunder. Still is debated in some circles, but losing/silencing/shaming people in the movement into over-conformity has always been a bad tactic, imo. Liberation is the goal; not merely tolerance. I’m not terribly interested in sacrificing my selfhood for this movement, and wouldn’t support a movement that asked that of me.
Don’t be ridiculous. Lee isn’t one of those icky women-things, so he wouldn’t be subject to the same harassment.
Honestly, Lee is no different from accommodationists in the religion/atheism question. He sees that two groups have strong opinions, and assumes that they are equally right, without actually understanding what each side is arguing. Anyone who does not recognize that the advocates of the Pit of Despair have nothing to offer is not someone we want on our side.
“Maybe on some level he is aware that they would treat him exactly the same way they treat Ophelia Benson.”
This had occurred to me as well.
It seems that he’s only commented once, early on, on his own post linked above. Perhaps he is just a reticent person, but even so, that hardly bodes well for the would-be moderator of a cease fire. I’m not sure of whether to give him points for going outside his comfort zone or to just call bullshit on him. Either way his stated goals are not being helped along by his sluggish participation. Like others here though, I’m fine with the rift.
Regarding “butthurt” I’ll miss that one – had no clue its homophobic associations (drr, now that it’s been pointed out….) I had always associated it with that certain type of person whose sphincter tightens up in response to anything new or fun.
So why is Lee pretending to seek “peace”?
In part, he thinks it is a clever ruse to help his friends, the slyme-gobbits.
Frankly, I think he’s doing it mostly for the attention. I never heard of him before this, and I’m hoping I won’t after it has all been flushed.
Classic accomodationist – lying about motive and loving the attention.
I posted a quote of Noxiousnan’s comment at Lee’s website. Here’s what he had to say:
So apparently he had no idea what was going on in the Slymepit until recently! And he doesn’t see the relationship between that, and his being criticized for pretending to address both sides equally.
Emphasis mine.
Not only is he disingenuous, he’s not very bright.
I only recently registered over at the slymepit so I could have a better idea of what was being said. I have never once posted there. I dont see why that should be an issue.
This is the most disengenuous thing he has said. I have never signed up for a Slymepit account, and I know what is going on over there. I have never signed up for a FtB account though I have been lurking on SEED and here since 2008. You do not have to “sign up for an account” in order to follow the plot line of “Deep Rifts”. You just have to be self aware.
Second, disengenuous item:
blockqoute fail!
my response follows after the above quote:
I am missing up the block quote end tag. I will go and research the HTML tags and attributes. Sorry….
Cath’s (cherry-picked) line was about the Catholic child-rape apologists, so clearly that was quite alright. It’s just fine to metaphorically threaten religionists! *spit* *bleccchh*
Donnie,
<blockquote>This is to be quoted</blockquote> becomes
Will our hero escape the censorship of PZ Myers and save the city from his evil grasp? Let’s find out …
You are correct. There will be no ‘cease fire’ there is no ‘one voice’ that speaks for the slymepit. PZ Myers listen well you stupid twit it is really a drag when I have to explain simple things to grown men who are supposed to be educated. You engage in character assassination on a regular basis you don’t even attempt to be a mature adult about it you jump into it like a small child smashing a bug and giggling at the sound it made. The fact you can claim to be nothing more than a social justice warrior makes you sound like you are socially retarded. What is it exactly that makes you so wise when it comes to social interaction PZ? The last thing you bring to mind is someone who knows how to make people feel safe and willing to open up and share their innermost feelings and thoughts. I seriously doubt if you were ever invited to any party because of your social skills. What vast experience makes you better qualified than so may others? Surly you realize how many people disagree with you, how can you honestly think in your tiny little brain that you are an expert in social interaction? I’ve watched you fumble with your words when confronted by things you must actually address instead of avoiding by using a banhammer or calling names. Or how about the way you outright lie to avoid explaining your behavior? Do you really think no one notices? Are you that pathetic ? You have made you legacy the story of a fool who fell victim to his own conceit. Every day more and more information is being posted addressing your sad spiral into a false sense of superiority and the way you undermined everything you accomplished by dividing what was a strong move towards positive progress. You are trying to force your agenda on the entire group of atheists and skeptics. Are you really so stupid to think that suddenly everyone is going to agree on any one thing? When were atheists ever known to agree on anything PZ. You ever heard the term ‘herding cats’ you moron? You don’t have the wit or charm to unite people PZ you are too childish, too droll, too dumb and too much of a wimp in person to provide a sense of leadership. Take your reasons for dismissing some posts –Oh thats a sock puppet THAT DOESN’T COUNT!! What, are we on a playground playing simon says ? Since when does a name dictate the value of a persons thoughts? Should the thought stand alone? Yes, if you are smart but we aren’t dealing with smart here, we are dealing with denial. You won’t be able to force your ideals on everyone they won’t allow it. You are your own worse enemy and it is only a matter of time. No one wants a cease fire because we would rather watch you slowly make yourself less and less credible. Anthony K , you big stud everytime I see you post I think of you standing at the mirror showing off ur pussy….cat. Thats so hot. Caine..pfft not worth the eff…
Donnie:
I expect because it’s much easier to ignore all the dissenting opinions that way.
Hi Reap!
You’re a sexist, misogynist fuck, and you’re barely literate, to boot. (And way too fucking stupid tio approach anything like skepticism.)
FREE SPEECH, fuckhead. Love it.
Jesus fuck, Reap. Learn what paragraph breaks are – no one expects you to be a decent human being, that’s obviously beyond you, but learn what a paragraph is, dude.
Yeah, as that’s the case, Sourpea, how about not mentioning me at all?
Strange, isn’t it. It might just be because I’m as old as I am, but my reaction to it has always been that it’s about bullying – the pull your chair out just as you’re about to sit down type of bullying. Almost cartoonish, or at least Buster Keaton-esque slapstick. Where your reaction, apart from laughing, is also to wince a bit.
But meanings change.
Some don’t. I doubt these freedom-from-religion fighters on the other side of the chasm have read anything about the history of women’s movements and their involvement in other political activities. In my view they line up far too easily with the assholes of the anti-war and left and not-quite-communist movements of the 60s and 70s. In fact, they’d fit right in with the views of the change-society-for-the-better types who saw and treated the women they worked alongside as kitchen help and secretaries with the added bonus that they were expected to put out to demonstrate their “freedom” from the sexual restrictions of conventional society.
¶ is your friend.
Fuck.
To control the conversation? To cover his backside?
I suppose that his unwillingness to engage, but rather indulge in drive-bys, helps him maintain a pretence of being aloof from the fight. However, I’m unimpressed by his insistence that there is some kind of equivalence here between the sides. The best I can say of it is that it’s diplomatic of him to do so if he wishes to bring the antis into talks.
As I said earlier, I don’t buy the notion that we should somehow resolve our differences in private. I’m all for open clashes. Let the best ideas win.
Indeed, because their ideas are lacking I believe the antis are losing and this dog-and-pony show ‘peace process’ is a last desperate attempt at relevance.
The convention season may represent an interesting tipping point, as we see how harassment policies manifest themselves in meatspace. If things go well it would, I hope, be the death knell of the anti faction.
Yeah, I’ve been meaning to talk to you about that, disphit.
You see, when a man (an actual man, not a little fucking childish pretender such as yourself) posts a public picture of himself naked, with only a cat in front of his genitals, there are two things that a person who is not dumber than snot will think:
1) That’s clearly a person who doesn’t give a flying fuck what children on the internet think; and
2) “Nice pussy” is so fucking obvious that to even mention it kinda marks you as the kind of person whose organ donor card should be signed as soon as possible, preferably before they let you walk unassisted in areas with heavy traffic.
You remain one of the dumbest and most useless persons on the net, ever. I’m almost glad you don’t have the self-awareness to actually realise what a waste of shit in a bag you are, because that realisation would most certainly come with a bungled suicide attempt, and healthcare dollars are stretched far enough without anyone having to pony up the bucks to keep you on life-support for the next three decades.
Sock puppet is boring puppet.
I prefer to think it it less as division, and more of jettisoning the deadweight. Let it float where it will while we forge on towards a brighter land.
@Caine:
Guess you’re right. My bad.
Reap “I hate everyone who doesn’t worship me” Paden has graced us with his driveby bile. He’s written his usual semi-literate, incoherent diatribe, showing his total disregard for most of humanity and animosity towards everyone else.
The only question I have for his loathsomeness is why does he hate the English language so much? Has he never heard of paragraphs? I understand his hostility towards normal people but why can’t he write a lucid, intelligible harangue?
Tell us about how Reap Paden, Thunderf00t and their ilk were helping progress in any way. Go ahead, we’ll sit here and wait for the evidence.
I was going to try to rebut some of Sock Puppet’s points, but when I read through it and found that it’s only point was really a confused and indignant “WHARRRGLGARBLL” I decided against it. My only musing is to ponder whether, given the mention of the good ol’ troll in this thread, given Sock Puppet’s nym and flustered allusions to sock puppets being dismissed, the sheer volume of inarticulate rage, and the characteristic lack of indentation, I can only wonder if Sock Puppet is really…[dramatic build up]…Reap Paden. Really, what more would need to be said in the company of True Neutral Lee, buddy pal of Good Ol’ Reap, who is much aggrieved about Reap’s treatment, and who pretends to be concerned about wasted energy, and obsessiveness, and questionable tactics, and so on. What more would need to be done, aside from laughing at the sheer hilarity of it all, if Reap was dropping in to take a shit on our carpet, wearing a paper-thin disguise, after Lee specifically defended Reap and decried “BOTH SIDES” on his behalf. If it was Reap, he has done well to support our perspective here and to undermine Lee.
Now, I wait to see if my hunch was right…
(Checks comments posted during the time I spent composing this post)
Guess I wasn’t the only who got that impression, huh? Go figure. Also I forgot to mention the even more obvious “obsession with Brownian” as one of the tells.
About them pitters…
I have previously pointed out that baboon is a… I wouldn’t even call it a dog-whistle, it’s a standard racist expression. Of course I don’t call the pitters racists because of their use of racist vernacular.
I call them racists because of their racism.
The solution for that is NOT to just pretend every viewpoint is equal. As an atheist, you should know this.
But won’t somebody care that poor Reap is being crushed like a bug under PZ’s boot?
*crickets*
Feline, the reason why the slymies all us “baboons” is because we all have red asses. Clever, those slymies.
But that bit about the hypothetical adopted child of Greta, that is one of their lowest moments. And they have a metric shitton of low moments.
“I dont usually stick around to answer every comment on every blog that brings this subject up, If I tried I wouldnt be able to get much else done, I did provide an email addy for anyone who wished to voice their concerns directly to me.”
Well now I don’t see how I can give him the benefit of the doubt any longer.
About how to pull off diplomacy on the interwebs, Lee: Yer doing it wrong.
Well, I guess something of substance came from Possibly Paden’s incoherent rant. We have something resembling a list of the “grievances” for the ‘pitters. If I may summarize:
-Character Assassination, or How Dare You Point Out Sexism In Those Atheistier Than Thou.
-Bad Social Skills, or You Shrill Feminazis Are So Rude To Me
-Censorship, or Free Speech Means You Have To Listen To Me Everywhere
-Forcing An Agenda, or The Dictionary Says I Don’t Have To Care About Anything But Gods.
If I may summarize it further:
-BAAAAAAAAAAW, or How The People I Bully Dared To Point Out How I Am A Bully.
Eh, I must confess, I’ve never read any of Paden’s screeds to the end. I think it’s because they trail into incoherence even before the point where someone literate would put a paragraph break. And he is supposed to be one of their champions?
It does make sense that they act like Vacula is comparable to Hitchens or Dawkins. He’s a dull and pompous tosser completely unable to ever be correct, but at least one can read his shit without having a red marker handy.
Feline:
I suspect it’s because poor, pitiful Paden is accustomed to simply pressing ‘record’ and frothing whatever he thinks his point might be. Text seems to confound him.
Picked out of the shit dump that has been power hosed away.
Some one does not know the difference between taken over and not wanting anything thing to do with. Not surprising, the same some one thinks that ignore an argument is the same as tyrannically suppressing an argument.
Reap what you sow.
Lee: “I only recently registered over at the slymepit so I could have a better idea of what was being said. I have never once posted there. I dont see why that should be an issue.”
It was an issue to me because he felt the need to come here and he felt the need to go to Almost Diamonds in attempts to engage both sides…or so I assumed. Why then, not try to engage the other side on their turf too?
“I released no video in august and havent been on video in almost a year. I have also never been on a video with Paden and Vacula to my knowledge.”
That may be, but in August they were saying as much on Slymepit. I did not watch the video and have no clue when it was made or if it was even about what it was purported to be about. Lee may want to address this with the SP if he ever does decide to see what they’re about.
noxiousnan, if you place text between <blockquote>Text Here</blockquote> the person you are quoting will be in blockquotes, making your posts much easier to read.
I must say this wallo’text approach to discussion is all too familiar. As a moderator on a science site, when I see this text presentation I know my brain is about to be assaulted, or insulted, by a perpetual motion candidate for patent or *the* refutation of Einstein that we’ve all apparently been waiting for.
Can’t say I’m very much interested in whatever psychological phenomenon underlies these parallels, I just know I’m not at all interested in reading them.
Janine, I know that it wasn’t why they started using it. It’s just a bit of “fellow travellers” thinking on my part. Which is why I pulled up a relevant quote. Mind you, this is just me, nobody needs to agree with me. It’s just a familiar pattern.
But here’s a thought: They call us baboons and think we won’t bite back. What’s up with that? Have they never seen a baboon baring it’s fangs?
Feline:
Because they are profoundly immature? Just like their favourite insult to toss PZ’s way is to call him woman, and the basis for insulting all the women they don’t like are all variations on the you’re ugly! or you’re a whore! theme.
According to I Write Like, Reap19’s latest screed is closest to James Joyce.
I guess they didn’t have Angry Eighth Grader as an option.
Portrait Of An Artist As An Young Dipshit?
Well, considering Joyce’s letters to Nora Barnacle (don’t google this at work, folks)…
Wow, with intellectual giants like this in the atheist/skeptic community it’s a wonder we haven’t solved all the world’s problems already .
Uh, Reap ol’ sockpuppet, ‘ol slymer, do tell: which is it? Was there strong movement towards positive progress, implying that people agreed with each other? Or was there a herd of cats who never agreed on anything?
FossilFishy:
Thinking things through is not his strong point, to say the least. Every time I see his repeated insistence that we’re trying to force people to be involved in social justice, it makes me laugh. They can’t seem to figure out that something which is completely opt-in isn’t forcing, nor is the outright rejection of their misogyny a matter of forcing anyone to do something they don’t want to do. They’ve been told, repeatedly, that they aren’t *wanted* in our tent and that causes the horrible howls of “persecution! oppression! freeze peach!”. It’s beyond absurd.
Wow, my severely dyslexic SonSpawn actually has a better grasp of punctuation and paragraph returns than The Scion of Atheism. Not to mention a much greater familiarity with the reality based universe.
Pathetic angry young white guys are so sad with their aggrieved entitlement and their fury that anyone who doesn’t worship their mighty awesomeness might get a chance to talk or have a spot of their own on the Internet. If only they weren’t quite so loud, I might even feel sorry for them.
As it is, dude, the world is changing. I do not give a flying fuck whether or not you like the direction I and other progressives are going – I will keep working on making the world a better place. I would, however, ask that you shut the fuck up about how I and my colleagues are wrong, how we’re ruining atheism, how we should shut up and let you lead everything, how what we care about isn’t really important anyway, and how we don’t make your dicks hard.
Seriously, I cannot imagine how small-minded one must be to spend so much of one’s time rage-trolling, hoggling, and playing with MS Paint and Photoshop to humiliate women you do not like. Just go your own way already.
Mattir, we must be fair. It is not just women. He has made a video with a MS Paint version of PZ. In his generosity, he gave credit to the loving support of the pit.
I will be nice and not give away the plot of the video. But, in the light of that video, I do find it funny that they question your ability as a parent.
Hun, whatz that?
Oh, sorry Caine, I’ll be with you in a minute.
[Puts down his copy of “Leiningen Versus the Ants”.]
*sloshing sounds*
*stritching of strike-anywhere match*
*dull thoomp*
[Surveys the flaming moat around his tent with satisfaction]
Now, you were saying…..?
I have never watched a Reap video.
Is he this articulate when speaking?
Er, that would be Huh in the first line. Despite my North Americaness, I’m from a little too far north to be calling anyone hun.
I am disappointed to learn that even someone as hot as PZ does not crank their shafts. They have very high standards indeed.
Would that there were some sort of firewall encapsulation device that we could deploy so that they would actually simply go their own way. As it is, it’s like trying to escape a swarm of overgrown ankle-clutching toddlers determined not to let mommy out of the house to go to work. Interesting that that’s the image that popped into my mind…
FossilFishy:
Ah, there will be a rush now, they’ll all be running to grab their pitchforks and make useless gestures at the flames. So sad.
FossilFishy
Leiningen Versus the Ants
OMG
I read that (childrens’ version) almost 50 years ago.
I loved it!
They are more determined to play the persecution card than xians and that’s saying something.
Me too chiqau.
As far as I can remember that was the first story I read where I had a physical response to it. By the end I was exhausted, wrung out by the tension of it. In a way, every thriller I’ve read since has been a disappointment because they never quite reached that level of visceral reaction.
I’ve chosen to never read it again because I’m pretty sure there was a bunch of racist shit in there that would spoil my memory of it.
Caine, thank you for the schooling on blockquotes. Let’s see if I can do it.
Pteryxx:
This strikes me as a terrible abuse of I Write Like.
[Looks at the persecution card on the table]
[Peeks at his hole cards, yup, still has suited pair of reality and compassion]
[Goes all in]
Hey Cyrano @ 63
What you said –
Thanks, I needed that. I had a shitty day thanks to one of the slymers – one of those days when I feel right on the edge of being harassed off the internet myself – and that comment reminded me that they’re harassing you and the rest of us as well as me. I know that, but I’d momentarily forgotten it.
Reality and Compassion?
Psh.
My Freeze Peach card trumps everything.
Oh Ophelia, I’m so sorry. It’s so wearing, the constant grind of harassment. I wish there were more for us to do for you and everyone else who is so highly targeted for abuse. I keep on fighting the good fight and hope that those so targeted find the strength to stay and not be silenced.
I have an armful of hugs if they are wanted.
A lot of the slymepit thing is a confluence of a few different phenomena:
(1) Libertarian-style anarchy. “Rules, any rules, are oppression! Raar!”
(2) Just-world theorizing. “The way things are [except things I dislike] are just peachy and the way things should be!”
(3) Privilege wailing. “Why are you telling me I need to share my toys? They’re miiiine!!!!”
and
(4) Super-rationalism. “I’m rational about religion, so therefore I’m rational about everything. Also, calm down.”
Each is ugly on their own. Add them together, and it is downright gross.
Lee Moore recently did an A-News podcast with a co-host/guest (he took part interviewing someone else, but he’s not a regular) who was involved in a tweet spat with Ophelia and then made a video about it.
Even though the 30 minute discussion was full of “outrage,” it boiled down to a minor thing: she didn’t give me evidence; she used an outrageous comparison about the topic; she told me to do my own homework since she’s not paid to teach me; she said I was hassling her (18 to 5 in tweet count); she called me a creep.
If you tune out the outrage, it seems a pretty simple situation to resolve–or at least reduce to something forgettable. Lee Moore said that he’d invite Ophelia on the podcast and received immediate interjections of WTF-style surprise from co-hosts, especially Reap Paden. It may have been his first surprise. There have been others. We’ll just have to wait and see where his surprising journey takes him.
Aw, crap, Ophelia.
*hauls Hug Super Variety Pack™ into thread*
Pick one! Pick several! Squoze ’em all multiple times.
Ophelia, I do not know how all of you can keep going. But I am grateful that you do.
I could not face that everyday.
Ophelia, add me to the list of people who support you and are amazed at what you’re able to tolerate.
Caine @ 139
AWWWWWWWWW SUM!!!
And definitely a cigarette holder or the right cigar, and maybe a matching red grosgrain bow on the fedora’s band?
(OLD white straight cis male here, trying to be genuinely appreciative!)
pH
Poxyhowze:
Definitely a cigarette holder, can’t stand cigars. Hmm, red on my fedora? I’ll have to think about that one. I’m, um…fussy ’bout my hats. :D
That would require him being able to structure his thoughts in a logical order.
Rey:
I’d settle for him learning to hit the return key.
His name is Ian, remember?
Ophelia,
I’m sorry, and I thank you again (a hundred times over) for all the work you do.
There is no reason for “peace talks” with these abusive assholes. They need to stop harassing and abusing people. Period.
Ophelia,
If they do it to you, they do it to all of us. Solidarity, sister!
More on solidarity:
Ophelia–I really think that the reason you’re targeted is because you’re public. That’s it. Its nothing that you’ve done to bring it on. It could be any one of us. That’s why I say, “When they do it to you, they do it to us.” Because I’ve no doubt that they would harass, stalk and attempt to run ANY OF WE WOMEN off the internet if we dared to talk about sexual harassment or feminism on a popular blog. And the harassment, while targeted at you, has enormous splash damage. *I* am offended and angry and feel hated, trapped and afraid because of these people. *I* have decided not to go to conferences because of them. *I* have curtailed my net presence because of them.
I can’t even imagine what it must be like to have it directed at myself, day after day.
I respect the hell out of what you do. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. Take care of yourself!
Rodney Nelson
Not yet, but I’m working on it.
Fucking hell, Reap. I work at an elementary school, and the essays the kids write show far better command of basic written syntax than you do. In addition to paragraphs, you also need to learn commas, periods, and semicolons. Do you seriously think this is the way to get taken seriously anywhere outside of 4chan or your little offshoot of it?
Mattir
I know; I can barely keep up with the responses to their shit even, because I have a job, and a relationship, and things like that. Where the hell do they find the time to do this shit? Do they spend every spare second doing nothing else? Why?
Ophelia
Shit. I can’t do much, but I have internet hugs if you want some.
Esteleth #336
Excellent summation.
Ophelia, you have my support. The shit you put up with is egregious.
I couldn’t give two shits about what they have to say about me. That’s my privilege. I only taunt them because the more time they spend stalking my comments, my Facebook page, and photoshopping me, the less time they have to troll you.
I dunno whether what I do is of any help. But every time Reap obsesses over what I write, or or tips his hand that he stalks my Facebook page, or doxxes me, it betrays his lie that he doesn’t care what I, or people like me, think.
They betray themselves by their insecurity and their desperation.
This is why the FtBullies meme is such a fucking load of shit.
I don’t know Reap Paden from anything but what he himself writes. When I call him stupid, or sexist, it’s because of the evidence he himself provides.
But what is his response? What is the Slymepitters’? They look at my avatar. They stalk my facebook page. They call me fat. They call me bald. They call me a virgin that lives in his parents’ basement. They’re so fucking far out of left field with their attempts to shame and intimidate me that it’s almost fucking comical. Seriously, swing and a fucking miss, kids. If you had the brains to actually shame me, you’d be fucking smart enough as to be on my side. I’m not still smarting from high school. I’m pretty much the opposite of self-conscious (even if neurotic.) But anything they can do to harm, so they reach for the easiest, laziest stereotypes they can grab. That’s why they’re so terrified of self-control: they don’t have the intellectual chops to navigate anything more substantial. They’re Two And A Half Men: formulaic and easy.
It’s been over two years. If they had anything reasonable to say, they’d have said it. But they don’t, so they spend their hours photoshopping those who do. They’ve had ample time to come up with something more substantial than “Cunt” and “Fat”, and they just can’t do it.
Anthony K:
Now be fair, they devoted at least a year to coming up with stupid twists on people’s names.
Anthony K, they hate you because you’re smart and articulate and funny as hell.
Any comparison between you leaves Reap looking like a truculent bright-normal 4th grader blustering to conceal his embarrassment at a put-down he doesn’t entirely comprehend.
These people are (at least partly) envy-driven.
Stacy, a bright normal fourth grader is able to use paragraphs.
Lee’s appearance on Ophelia’s facebook was informative. When Ophelia opined that she sometimes loves the commenters here, he replied:
When Ophelia notes that he doesn’t get the degradation that she does each day, he responds:
Chris says that “Advocating a cease fire in which only one side is firing will often bring insults from the side getting hit.” Lee’s reply is interesting:
When several commenters note that being attacked for one’s intelligence is par for the course and not comparable with rape threats, acid attack threats, degrading photoshopping et al, and that he appears to be taking sides, we get this:
For my part, I wish Lee *would* point out that things are not completely one-sided.
I think a clear-eyed observer might say that one side is rude and obnoxious but that the other plumbs the depths of human decency. That there might be a correlation between sexist comments and the return fire that provokes. I’m sure many of us would admit to common rudery if Lee would note that this is not the same thing as the rape threatery and sexism and stalking that’s the common currency of the ‘pit.
These things are not of the same magnitude and before Lee tries to sit us down and pick apart the Rashomon story of how we got here, he has to abandon this notion of the sides are equivalent or as bad as each other. This fiction comforts those, like Paden and company, who are repeat offenders. And any attempt to suggest that both sides are equivalent will only drive us into a rage and earn him contempt.
I’m unsurprised that so many folks have been rude to Lee. This is what you get when you give cover to harassers.
Lee Moore:
Gosh, how devastating. That is much worse than being degraded every day, told you are subhuman, an object, especially a vulnerable object, hey, someone should kick you in the cunt, and someone should rape you and maybe toss acid in your face to top it all off.
Lee Moore is an asshole so stuffed full of privilege he can’t even take 5 minutes out to consider what it’s like to live as a woman, and that we really don’t have the luxury to ignore threats. Of course, since he seems to be unable to distinguish between insults and threats, that’s not so surprising.
Let’s be fair folks, since his drive-by in this thread so far I’ve seen, as direct attacks on Lee (using a fairly loose definition of ‘attack’), the following:
Yeah, that’s pretty rude stuff, I’ll admit. But it is totes NOT equivalent to sexual degradation, online stalking and threats.
It’s a good thing Lee’s skin is so thick and he’s not worried, otherwise I’d be worried that he’d slope off in a huff and stop talking to us.
Well, dang it all!
leebrimmicombe-wood @357, you missed mine @115:
Sorry about the omission, Caine. To be honest I was only counting the insults since he drove by.
However, I have to chide you for being insufficiently rude or insulting to him. You were merely admonishing him for his inaction, without actually calling him names or impugning his intelligence.
Though I suppose, if I were to co-opt the language of the ‘pitters, that you made an egregious attack and advocacy for censorship. Or something.
leebrimmicombe-wood:
Oh. My bad.
Although I’m pretty sure Lee Moore would count it as terribly insulting, being a direct reply and all.
Ah, I’m finally getting the two-sidedness of it all. Party A has been the subject of vicious sexist attacks. Party B, who did absolutely nothing, with the small exception of perpetrating those attacks, has been accused of the grave crime of sexism. Party B has thus been wronged at least as much, if not a great deal more, than Party A. Yes, we must agree to negotiations immediately.
Y’know.
Despite its horrifying qualities, despite its immaturity, and despite its finding ways to make fun of people for the smallest things, that board has brought us some good things you know. We shouldn’t be so hard on it.
Oh, I was talking about 4chan. The Slymepit is terrible. 4chan is terrible too, but I think I’d prefer it over the pit.
As a Registered Pedant, am I allowed to ask Little Reap or his literary agent what “negative progress” might mean?
And at least 4chan admits who they are. They don’t hide behind trying to say they’re somehow being noble and standing up for all that is good in the world through their actions.
He’s a small metal object you use to pin two things together with a hammer?
Cool!
;)
Yeah, I’m going to agree with the argument that the difference between 4Chan and the Slymepit is that 4Chan doesn’t attempt to argue that they aren’t 4Chan.
Cyrano @ 348
Sigh. That’s horrible. I know it’s happening, and it’s horrible.
Not the best fun there is, I must say.
leebrimmicombe-wood (#355)
Dear Lee Moore and all the other fucking idiots who think there are only two sides in this fight: “Militant fence straddlers who think they’re above it all” is a side. It’s a shitty, morally bankrupt side that gives aid to the side of the misogynistic harassers because it requires treating both sides as if they’re equal.
Whoops, “both sides” should have been in scare quotes.
Hilarious. So we’ve already established that calling Reap Paden, that glorious exemplar of moral behavior and rational thought, a sexist or a racist is JUST AS BAD as harassment and threats of sexual violence. And now Lee has decided to add another thing that is JUST AS BAD: Mocking the intelligence of a Neutral. Poor wittle victim. Cue the tiny violin.
anteprepro:
I think that in their own little privilege-soaked universe they do see these things as equivalent.
I’ve long been fascinated at the anti-gay bigots’ apoplexy over the idea that they might be called bigots. It’s featured big and bold at the National Organization for (not your) Marriage’s site in their “Marriage Talking Points”. ( http://www.nationformarriage.org/site/c.omL2KeN0LzH/b.4475595/k.566A/Marriage_Talking_Points.htm )
I used to run an internet forum on an unrelated topic, but in the days after the passage of Prop 8, that became the prime topic. After someone claimed that Prop 8 was necessary because some gays were filing lawsuits against religious people and forcing them to not discriminate in the public sphere, I dared to call that bigotry — discriminating against an entire group based upon the (supposedly bad) behavior of a few. That caused a shitstorm with long-time contributors stomping off in a huff. How dare I call their behavior discriminatory and bigotry?! After all, they’re just trying to maintain their privilege.
You see this same terror at being called bigots from other strident anti-gays. They can say whatever atrocious lies and accusations they want, but boy, if you call them bigoted, they throw a fit. For the most part, the major pro-gay groups have eliminated the term from their public vocabulary for political expediency. (I’m not convinced that’s the right move, but I can see why they’ve done it.)
We see the same things here. Michael Shermer was (supposedly) vilely attacked, defamed, the subject of slander, and libel, subject to witch-hunts, etc. because someone (a woman no less) pointed out that he had said something sexist. On the one side of this supposed truce talk, we have those who have contributed to vile, sexist, bigoted attacks. On the other side, we’ve got those that have said, Hey, those things are vile, sexist, racist, and immature. Apparently, free speech gives them the unrestricted right to say whatever they want, but when someone calls them sexist, racist, bigoted, etc., that is totally unacceptable and must be stamped out by whatever, whatever, means necessary.
I don’t know what can be done about such behavior. It’s probably too ingrained for anything to done for the individuals so involved. The best we can do is probably to keep marching progress forward and leave them behind.
Public shame and excoriation is a good start.
That’s why what Lee is doing is so stupid and damaging. It is NECESSARY that we call out behaviour like this, that it is roundly condemned, that people who do this stuff do not find aid and succor from major figures. Its really the only power that we have to affect their bahvior.
We can’t make people not-racist or not-sexist. But we can make a space where such statements are simply unacceptable.
Rats! bahvior should be “behavior”
I like the idea of bahvior. It perfectly describes the actions of a curmudgeon.
Michael Shermer? Did someone point out that he had said something sexist? A woman no less?
I hadn’t heard.
ahahahahaha