Comments

  1. Gnumann, Tyhpos is my motor says

    And a bloody shame it is too.

    Shame is actually a key word IMHO. It would be great if we could build a sexual and romantic culture based on mututal respect and enjoyment rather than conquest and shame.

  3. says

    indeed. “50 Shades of Gray” strikes me as horribly written. I’m sure it’s possible to write D/s romance without making it so… sleazy, but that one wasn’t it.

    ah well, at least the sex scenes are interesting enough to use to drown out the prayer ladies at the health clinic

  5. Louis says

    Audley,

    And big peepees and most importantly Man Feefees (Important!)

    Don’t you oppress us men by not reflecting out full diversity and experience now.

    Louis

  6. madbull says

    I spoke to guys who think ‘NO’ is a signal for, ‘you aren’t doing it right, you need to try harder to get her’

  7. Louis says

    “Yes” means “yes”.

    “Maybe” means “persist”.

    “No” means “new input needed into Femputer to get pussy (see “maybe”).

    Also the verb “to harass” is conjugated thus:

    I never harass
    You are over sensitive
    He is a sex pest/She is a prick tease/It is irrelevant
    We are being persecuted for having sexual interest
    You are all feminazis
    They are disgusting perverts, we’re nothing like them

    Louis

  8. says

    “Maybe” means “persist”.

    No. In many cultures “maybe” means “no, but standards of politeness say it’s rude to give a definitive no”

    For example a friend of mine who went to Japan was informed that if someone says “maybe” to a invitation or request, they probably mean “no”

  9. Louis says

    Ing,

    Good point, but I think my snarky comment was hardly meant to encapsulate all cultures everywhere!

    Louis

  10. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Have I ever said how happy I am to ignore the majority of pop junk?

  11. Louis says

    Ing,

    You did get that my #7 was not advocacy of that position, right? I was mocking the “no means other than no” crowd.

    Louis

  14. jackrawlinson says

    It’s missing the panel that says “And then she made the simple exchange public at a presentation so that a veritable shitstorm of rage and vituperation ensued.”

    Oh come on. We can laugh about all that now. Can’t we? Still too soon? All right, all right. As you were. :-)

  17. Rutefrosk says

    @”We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective” #8:

    For example a friend of mine who went to Japan was informed that if someone says “maybe” to a invitation or request, they probably mean “no”

    Your friend is correct. In fact, Japanese doesn’t even have words that correspond directly to “yes” and “no”. Instead that have “hai” which means “that’s correct”, and rarely used as we use yes, and “iee” which means no, but is considered rude on its own, and is almost always followed by some softening words.

    For example:

    Anata wa tabetai desu ka? (Are you hungry?)
    Iie, tabetaku arimasen. (No thanks, I’m not hungry.)
    Hai, tabetai desu. (Yes, I am hungry.)

    Hope I didn’t stray too far off-topic now.

  18. dianne says

    @7: Yes means yes.

    No means no unless you’ve already negotiated a situation in which another word means no and no means yes.

    Maybe means seek further data, current information inadequate to make assessment. Consider cultural and personal context.

  23. Louis says

    Audley,

    But if I too am a man hating femnazi and also a man, how do I get through the day? Also if I speak in a wood and no woman is around to hear me, am I still wrong?

    It’s all SO confusing.

    Louis

  24. Emrysmyrddin says

    Louis, as far as I’m concerned, unless shown otherwise in the body of the text, merely having the ‘nym Louis above the post is [sarcasm] tag enough ;)

  26. Louis says

    Emrysmyrddin,

    LOL Thanks!

    BTW Louis is my name, not merely my ‘nym. I don’t decry anyone else’s choice to have a ‘nym, I’m just me, I can’t really be anything else. The essential Louisness always comes out. It’s an affliction really. ;-)

    {Queue rendition of I Am What I Am}

    Louis

  27. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    indeed. “50 Shades of Gray” strikes me as horribly written. I’m sure it’s possible to write D/s romance without making it so… sleazy, but that one wasn’t it.

    Yeah, there’s good D/s and then there’s “50 Shades of Gray”. That is just a bad book in general.

    I have no idea what Call Me, Maybe sound like

    I don’t either. I’m tired of people using the fucking lines from it as a pick up. People have actually made cards with the lines from the song to hand out with their number on it. It’s also a meme. Fuck that meme.

  28. says

    Let us not forget the next level up, and even more fantastical.

    Where the man realises that pestering her in the first place is inappropriate.

  29. baal says

    How do I read this?

    poor widdle hurt pee-pees

    It reads like a generic use of gendered body parts as an insult. Does having the pee-pees be hurt solve the gendered language as an insult problem or maybe it’s saved by the condescending tone directed at an ok to hate group or by baby talk?

    Is this supposed to fall into the its-not-about-you unless you have a hurt fee-fee so stop being so touchy bucket?

    Is this a case where the patriarchy has such an imbalance of power and cases of misandry are so few that generic gendered insults are de minimus?

    Is it ok to use a male member as metonymy since the post was intended as snarky?

    I’ve read many links web-sites and blog posts on gendered language usage that passes the feminism test and the post I’m ranting on doesn’t get past them. I say this to hedge off the due-diligence smear. Feel free to rip me for idiocy or not getting it but I’d really like to know why this particular instance of gendered language is acceptable (or not) and whether it gets a pass for a different reason (yeah, it’s wrong but you know it’s a small thing so get over it).

  32. says

    Louis,

    But if I too am a man hating femnazi and also a man, how do I get through the day?

    Unpossible. You are either:
    1) A man who only agrees with feminazis to get laid
    or
    b) A sockpuppet of a Horde lady, created to trick dudes into thinking that it’s okay to support the Femocratic Agenda*

    *You will assimilate.

  33. Emrysmyrddin says

    50 Shades of Grey read by Gilbert Gottfried…

    *dies laughing*

    I can’t listen to any more, I need oxygen…!

  35. opposablethumbs says

    Oh piss, I should have realised I hadn’t refreshed before posting and my throwaway #31 was therefore down the page a ways –

    it’s just an aside, referring to Louis’ #26 (queue vs cue)

    NOT a reference to the OP.

    Sorry.

  36. Louis says

    Emrysmyrddin,

    Did I miss a snark tag? I has a confused.

    Louis

    P.S. I am also LMAO at the Gilbert Gottfried reading.

  37. Louis says

    Refresh before posting. Read for comprehension.

    Two things I has done learnded today. I has a smart!

    Louis

  38. Louis says

    Opposablethumbs,

    {facepalm}

    D’OH!

    Whadda mistakadamakea.

    Ayayayayay.

    I has an Envy and a Shame now.

    Louis

  39. Louis says

    Audley,

    Can I assimilate and get laid whilst maintaining my Mantegrity? Or do I have to be a complete Mantraitor to engage in Teh Feminisms?

    Louis

  40. nesetalis says

    @Louis
    I think you’re only a mantraitor if you are a transsexual.
    At least, I’ve been called that before by men. XD
    Then on the flipside I’ve been called a manspy by women.

  41. Andy Groves says

    mra:

    1. Men get harassed too, you know.

    2. I know this because I have seen “Fatal Attraction” and “Disclosure”. Many times. Many, many times.

    3. Mind you, that Demi Moore, eh? Phwoarrr…

    4. I now demand we change the subject and talk about my feelings and my weenus.

    /mra

  42. peggin says

    Gilbert Gottfried reading 50 Shades of Grey was one of the best things ever — I think it’s great when a piece of literature gets exactly the level of respect it deserves!

  43. Gregory Greenwood says

    baal @ 29;

    There was a snark tag at the end of Audley Z Darkheart (love nurtures boundless chaos)’s post, which is a pretty clear indication that the term was not used with any discriminatory intent.

    There is also the fact that the term ‘pee pee’ does not have any established history of being used as a gendered insult pertaining to a body part that is intended to dehumanise, unlike ‘cunt’ for example, and so is not problematic in the same way. It is mostly used here to highlight the attitudes of the type of misogynist who seem to be utterly obsessed with the notional ‘needs’ of their penis to the point where they completely ignore the personhood of the object of their desires (usually women).

    Attempting to claim that the term carries an equivalent freight of negative, dehumanising imagry as the gendered insults more commonly applied to women is, to put it mildly, something of a stretch.

  44. dianne says

    But if I too am a man hating femnazi and also a man, how do I get through the day?

    You find it hard, but the hordes of screaming Pharyngulite women all lusting for your body and snarky mind comfort you. (Unless you’d rather we didn’t lust after you, of course. In which case we’ll back off.)

  46. Louis says

    Nesetalis,

    WHOA! Nasty stuff. I freely confess to being so utterly divorced from and clueless about trans issues that I can only offer support, try to understand, shut the fuck up, behave like I would with everyone else and get the hell outta Dodge when told to do so!

    But back to the comedy:

    I have to be trans to be a mantraitor/manspy? Oh this is a high bar to set! Can’t I just wear a dress a bit on Sundays, do I have to go {ahem} The Whole Hog*? Why, WHY are you all oppressing us men so much? Is it not enough that I treat you all as real people when we all know that the only real people are men, manly, manly, normal men? Now I have to chop my cock off and read Germaine Greer (who isn’t exactly trans friendly IIRC) just to confuse the issue? When to I get to go to the pub and talk about breasts whilst drinking beer, farting and scratching my balls?

    I’m good at that. My skills are, like, so undervalued.

    Louis

    * And I have just crossed my legs and winced, sorry, that is an entirely involuntary reflex. I get how someone else might feel wrong in their body etc, but I have never had to think about it {cis privilege, hello!} and I am remarkably fond of my peepee. It’s been a good friend to me over the years.

  47. Louis says

    Dianne,

    I am comfortable with being a lust object. Totally amazed, surprised, disbelieving and absurdly grateful, but otherwise okay. I just feel deeply sorry for anyone who actually does so (although I realise it is all in jest) after all, the reality is so terribly disappointing.

    But then the reality of these things so often is. Heroes with penises of clay and all.

    Louis

  48. Emrysmyrddin says

    Louis, no one here wants you for your clay pee-pee. Your brain, on the other hand…

  51. Louis says

    Sort of aside,

    Why does anyone think this JackRawlinson person is EG? Did I miss the memo?

    Louis

    P.S. Audley, Well Mantreachery it is then!

  52. Abdul Alhazred says

    I’ll say.

    In real life the poor schnook would be raked over the coals just for asking.

    Right? :p

  53. Emrysmyrddin says

    Someone needs a cluebat.

    I think cluebatting should be an Olympic sport – I wish we’d picked that one this year. What did get picked? Darts? Morris dancing? Cheese rolling?

  54. Brownian says

    Baal, Gregory Greenwood’s comment explained the difference the best, but I’d like to add a bit to this paragraph:

    It is mostly used here to highlight the attitudes of the type of misogynist who seem to be utterly obsessed with the notional ‘needs’ of their penis to the point where they completely ignore the personhood of the object of their desires (usually women)

    The PUAs that are the focus of the cartoon have made it explicit that their only concern is with how they are to get to stick their penes into someone.

    Read the comments by karlvonmarx on Victim Blaming 101 for an example of acute tunnel vision (and how the mean ol’ feminists only want to prevent his man-train from entering one):

    Basically, this is what I see here: Men, if you’re interested in a girl sexually – too bad.

    So, Audley’s “PZ, why don’t you ever consider the poor widdle hurt pee-pees?” isn’t the use of a gendered slur to insult them, but a succinct, if infantilising, summary of the entirety of their argument.

  55. baal says

    Hey baal! Shut the fuck up, since you completely missed the /snark at the end of my post.

    The /snark doesn’t solve it. It’s a stretch to say that your substitution of penis is for anything but all men. I tried to read it in the context that PZ and Sinfest are intending (men force women to comply with the men’s sexual wants; women are not free to say no like the character in the strip <–these points are great and I agree) but there is nothing in "/snark" that gets there.

    You are using the penis generally to refer to all men. I find this objectionable.

    Greggory, thanks for the reply. I make no such parallel on historical usages but stand by my assertion that it's never ok to equate people with body parts. Usage of this rhetoric only sends the message that it's ok to use body parts (even in the /snark context and without particularization) as stand ins.

    For illustration – consider the anti-smoking adds from phillip morris. They would show fit and attractive young folks smoking and having a good time. The visuals were nice, the music was upbeat and then there was a soft but clear "oh yeah don't smoke" thrown in. Impact on smoking rates for teens? Went up. Truth campain ads on the other hand tapped into anti-authority feelings, invoked 'truth' and showed impacts of smoking. Phillip Morris lobbied to have those ads defunded.

    The Truth ads worked, however.

    I am intentionally comparing use of body parts to stand in for full people and using body parts as insults (joking snarking or whatever) to the the wrong type of advertising for a certain outcome.

    So far as my objection is characterization as tone trolling, I'm not intending that. I mean the substantive point that using body parts for insults or as stand-ins without substantive packaging is fraught. It will be read as a green-light or that you don't really mean it when you say it's not ok in other situations. There wasn't a particularization by Audley to MRAs.

  56. kassad says

    Besides, it it a dehumanization of the men or a humanization of the “pee-pees” in question? Which would then grant penises access to a status far superior to those vagina life-supports I keep hearing about on MRA/PUA charming little forums.

    /snark

  57. says

    Oh, Gilbert Grottfried reading Fifty Shades of Grey has made my morning. Thank you, thank you.

    I’m sure it’s possible to write D/s romance without making it so… sleazy, but that one wasn’t it.

    As mentioned, there is some good D/s romance out there. It’s just hard to find, as any good pop fiction is. The majority of romance is churned out and caters to a gender essentialist market. A friend of mine is a romance novelist who had a crowd turn on her at a convention for suggesting that one of the reasons women are buying m/m romances is because it offers an escape from the traditional gender roles that predominate in straight romance.

    As poorly written as this book is, it’s hitting all the right buttons for its market.

  58. Matt Penfold says

    I find this objectionable.

    Given your reasons for objecting are pathetic and based on ignorance, I do not give a fuck.

    I hope that is succinct enough for you.

  60. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Shorter Baal: BlahBlahBlah.

    Longer Baal: BlahBlahblahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahfapgiggity.

  61. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    i actaully agree with Baal, IF Audley was doing what Baal thinks she was doing. . .. which, she wasn’t.

    Baal – the point wasn’t to reduce all men to a sexual organ, it was to point out what MRA/PUAs actually care about – their sexual organs. And nothing else. It’s mocking MRA/PUAs by mocking their tunnel vision, it’s not applicable to all men. And yes, the snark tag does makes that clear.

  62. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Am I the only one who wants to melt down the golden calf?

  64. Brownian says

    Besides, it it a dehumanization of the men or a humanization of the “pee-pees” in question?

    It’s the latter, which is what the PUAs do in the first place.

    Honestly, go read karlvonmarx’s comments in the thread I linked to above.

    Tell me if I’m wrong to characterise his entire argument as “Yeah, yeah, yeah, equality and all that shit—when do we get to the part about me getting my fuck on?”

  65. Brownian says

    i actaully agree with Baal, IF Audley was doing what Baal thinks she was doing. . .. which, she wasn’t.

    Me too. I don’t think Baal is tone trolling. I think Baal is simply not understanding Audley’s comment.

  66. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    But the golden calf is making the strong argument that Audley’s use of pee-pee is just as bad as all of the misogynistic language we all wade through. Also, that a witch weights the same as a duck.

  67. Matt Penfold says

    Me too. I don’t think Baal is tone trolling. I think Baal is simply not understanding Audley’s comment.

    Me too. I am undecided if the not understanding is deliberate or not,.

  68. kassad says

    @64. Brownian: Oh I agree completely. The argument is EXACTELY “you do… whatever. As long as I can keep my cock warm…” The cases of dick-brained PUA like this is worse than outright hateful mysogynist because of that “no-big-deal, men-just-want-some” attitude that is considered normal, and even glorified, in our societies.

    Humanized penises creeps me out on so many levels…

  69. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Me too. I am undecided if the not understanding is deliberate or not,.

    We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.

  71. says

    Oh for fuck’s sake.

    No I was not generalizing about all men.

    Let me break it down for you, ballz (since you’re a known idiot).
    Comic: Woman has her bounderies respected.
    Why is this shocking?
    Women: Please, stop sexually harassing us.
    PUA types: But how will I get laid? How do I know if a woman is interested unless I hit on her? People like casual sex, y’all are prudes. Etc etc etc.

    I don’t expect everyone to read every thread (I certainly don’t), which is why I included the /snark tag. Brownian is spot on– I was referring karlvondouche and his “but, men like secks! You’re oppressing men!” wahmbulance chasing.

    But go on. Keep telling how awful it is that I dared to utter “pee pee”. You poor men! How will you ever survive thje taunts?

  72. Brownian says

    Me too. I am undecided if the not understanding is deliberate or not

    My admittedly poor memory is not prompting me with any reasons based on past comments to suspect deliberate misunderstanding.

  73. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    is 29 comments a new record?

    Not even close. There has been plenty of times that the whining of the MRAs was the opening comment.

  74. Louis says

    Kassad,

    Humanized penises creeps me out on so many levels…

    HOW DARE YOU DENY THE HUGE MANATEE OF MAH PEEPEE!!!!!!1111!!

    Next you’ll be telling me it doesn’t talk to me/speak for me (depending on the situation). And then where will we be? Dogs and cats, living together, mass hysteria.

    Louis

  75. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Audley, I would not even bother to bring up your belly pee-pee.

    *snort*

  76. 'Tis Himself says

    I prefer if the term “pee-pee” was not used to refer to my penis. I would like you to call it a “peeeee-peeeee” in acknowledgement of its pron-star length.

    Okay, baal, is that good enough for you?

  77. Louis says

    I am a man.

    I use the word peepee when mocking MRAs.

    Therefore it is all good.

    Apparently.

    ;-)

    Louis

  78. StevoR says

    A totally unbelievable fantasy

    From that title I expected your review of the Prometheus movie.

    Sadly, its nothing that entertaining although still bringing a wry smile.

  79. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    Also, that a witch weights the same as a duck.

    *snickers*

    and Baal’s pee pee takes over the thread!

    Attack of the 50ft Trouse Snake. in 3-D!

  80. Louis says

    ‘Tis,

    5 e’s per pee? Impressive. You sail, right? You should be able to use that thing as a mast, or at least a rudder.

    Is that what a spanker is?

    Louis

  82. opposablethumbs says

    @ Caerie #57

    A friend of mine is a romance novelist who had a crowd turn on her at a convention for suggesting that one of the reasons women are buying m/m romances is because it offers an escape from the traditional gender roles that predominate in straight romance.

    Why did they turn on her? I don’t get why that would be controversial. (I enjoy some m/m romance, and that is definitely one of the reasons why). Don’t want to make this too much of a derail, though, so I’ll just keep it short (or cd always take it to TET if more appropriate).

    Brownian is 100%, that is precisely karlvonmarx’ “argument” in a nutshell.

    I don’t think Baal is tone trolling. I think Baal is simply not understanding Audley’s comment.

    Oh, I agree about that too.
    Must stop being so agreeable …

  83. says

    Look…

    baal and baal’s pee-pee are both offended, not to mention all pee-pees everywhere are offended by the inconsistent use of hyphens. That’s a lot of offendignation going on, that you feminazgûls are minimizationing and applying dismissitude in said direction forthwith.

    Sorry, what were we talking about again? I saw a picture of Don King on the ‘tubes and sort of slipped into a fugue state for a few seconds.

  84. 'Tis Himself says

    Is that what a spanker is?

    A spanker is what occurs before the oral sex. If you’d ever seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail you’d know this.

  85. StevoR says

    @71. Audley Z Darkheart (love nurtures boundless chaos) :

    But go on. Keep telling how awful it is that I dared to utter “pee pee”. You poor men! How will you ever survive the taunts?

    Speaking as a man I can tell you very honestly that I’ve heard a hell of a lot worse taunts~wise including here.

    Somehow I’ve survived and am no more than moderately fucked up as a human being.

    ***

    “To err is human to really fuck things up requires a computer.”
    – Unknown.

  86. Louis says

    Audley,

    But it’s so haaaaaaaaaaaaaard!*

    Louis

    * I will leave resolving the ambiguity inherent in this statement to the reader. It can go both ways. At least.**

    ** Get your minds out of the gutter. We’re talking about serious things here, like peepees and Man Feefees (IMPORTANT) and stuff.

  87. Louis says

    ‘Tis,

    Is that not a spanking?

    Perhaps a spanker is someone who cuts one up in traffic.

    Louis

  89. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    “To err is human to really fuck things up requires a computer.”
    – Unknown.

    Of coarse I believe in a god. Do you think that things could be so fucked up by pure chance alone.

  90. says

    Janine:

    Audley, I would not even bother to bring up your belly pee-pee.

    *snort*

    *chortle!*

    I didn’t even think of the argumentative possiblities that would have arose* if DarkFetus was male. I mean, I could argue from both the vagina havin’ and the bepenised perspective!

    (As it is, I think having a penis in my belly would seriously wig me the fuck out at this point. Thank goodness DF is female!)

    ‘Tis:

    I would like you to call it a “peeeee-peeeee” in acknowledgement of its pron-star length.

    Oh god, man! You gotta stop!

    I keep telling you guys that my bladder control ain’t what it used to be, but nooooooooooooo, you just have to keep making me laugh.

    *Well, if that just isn’t damn awkward.

  92. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    * I will leave resolving the ambiguity inherent in this statement to the reader. It can go both ways. At least.**

    Not safe for work!

    Someone gotta do it.

  93. kassad says

    Louis,

    HOW DARE YOU DENY THE HUGE MANATEE OF MAH PEEPEE!!!!!!1111!!

    Next you’ll be telling me it doesn’t talk to me/speak for me (depending on the situation). And then where will we be? Dogs and cats, living together, mass hysteria.

    Louis

    I am not denying it is sentient! But human… I don’t know…

  94. Louis says

    Janine; Your work, I am an enormous fan of it.

    Kassad; Well if it helps it is more intelligent and likeable than many people I’ve met…wait, that’s not a good thing is it?

    Louis

  95. says

    opposablethumbs:

    Why did they turn on her? I don’t get why that would be controversial. (I enjoy some m/m romance, and that is definitely one of the reasons why).

    They felt that she was denigrating het romance by making that observation and disliked having their erotica deconstructed. “We like it because it’s hot” was the thrust (no pun intended) of their response.

  96. Gregory Greenwood says

    baal @ 55;

    The /snark doesn’t solve it. It’s a stretch to say that your substitution of penis is for anything but all men.

    And;

    I mean the substantive point that using body parts for insults or as stand-ins without substantive packaging is fraught. It will be read as a green-light or that you don’t really mean it when you say it’s not ok in other situations. There wasn’t a particularization by Audley to MRAs.

    That Audley’s comment related specifically to MRAs, as opposed to men in general, can be drawn from its context and deliberate form of words. If we look at the comment again;

    PZ, why don’t you ever consider the poor widdle hurt pee-pees?

    Misandrist!

    /snark

    Then I would draw your attention to the use of the term ‘misandrist’, especially used as it is in combination with the ‘snark’ tage – this is intended to link this comment back to several recent threads pertaining to misogyny, and the MRA commenters who tried to derail those threads in an attempt to replace the topic at hand with a discussion about the supposed ‘scourge of misandry’ in society, and is also a humourous allusion to the comic in the OP of the recent thread The Threat of Misandry, where one of the characters displays a seemingly supernatural ability to detect that a conversation is going on in the vicinity that deals with gender issues, but falls at what he considers to be the most important hurdle – making it all about the problems of men.

    As for the infantalising language, that is simply a reponse to the peurile attitude of the several commenters on various recent threads who seem unable to accept that women are actual people, as opposed to simply living sex dispenser machines.

    I make no such parallel on historical usages but stand by my assertion that it’s never ok to equate people with body parts.

    The historical context of a phrase is important. As an example, both ‘nigger’ and ‘honkey’ are racial insults, but the relative history of those two terms mean that their meaning and significance are not equivalent.

    Similarly, a phrase such as ‘cunt’ – given the history of the word itself and our society’s track record of sexually objectifying women, treating them as chattel, and the tropes that devalue womanhood as opposed to manhood, and also define each in toxic opposition to the other (in no small measure homophobia was born out of a hostility toward men who didn’t perform masculinity in an ‘acceptable’ fashion because they acted in a way that was considered to close to the norms of behaviour associated with historically devalued womanhood) – is a very different proposition from a phrase such as ‘pee pee’, that holds no such history. While you are not making any such parallel, the relative associations of each word are still important in any discussion about their standing as gendered insults.

    I would also contend that Audley wasn’t equating men to their penises, or even specifically equating MRAs to their penises. It was the misogynists themselves on those earlier threads and constantly before, during and after ‘elevatorgate’ that perpetually sought to bring the conversation about women’s rights and standing in the atheist community back to their supposed ‘right’ to ‘hit on’ any woman at any time. They were the one’s who kept asserting, essentially, that their desire to stick their penises into any passing woman who took their fancy should be afforded greater importance than the desires and sense of acceptance (and even safety) of those women.

    They argued long and repeatedly that the issue of misogyny in the context of atheism and broader society wasn’t important when set against this manifesto for penis-possessors, even going so far as to argue, almost in as many words, that if men were not permitted to hit on women at will in all circumstances, then the result would be the incremental extinction of confident, real manly men(TM), and their replacement by a ‘lesser’ breed of men too timid to ‘go for it’ (the implication being that women themselves have no sexual agency or lack the social skills to initiate an intimate relationship, and so cannot be relied upon to ever make the first move), which would cause social interactions between men and women to break down, and thus would result in the collapse of society.

    I kid you not, you need only look at Brownian’s link to the ‘Victim Blaming 101’ thread to see for yourself.

    Audley was simply making a comic reference back to such arguments.

  98. Emrysmyrddin says

    In other news, Jonathan Swift really liked him some Poor Irish Baby Stew, and the folks over at Landover Baptist strip their real-live congregation on a regular basis to check for Secret Mormon Underwear™.

  99. baal says

    @Audley, I apologize for misreading.

    @Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle
    Thanks, I will assume I’m simply wrong that the /snark does solve the sexist language usage. I doubt I’m alone in not getting that.

    @Brownian, I really like the vast majority of your posts except when you join in tribal rah-rah. I’ll check out the link but didn’t read it earlier.

    dehumanization of the men

    I repeated myself to point of being excessive and redundant. Characterizing all men as pee-pees is dehumanizing. I misread the /snark as a limit on that excessive and bad characterization.

    @ the folks who doubt my honesty, I’m being honest. I do see that honest real issues are JAQ’d and co-opted by the MRA trolls. This is part of the point of their trolling.

    Please consider that the anti-patriarchy messaging can come off as nothing more than another (treated as lesser and marginal) tribe acting tribal. This isn’t a fair or accurate representation. It does help MRAs and trolls intentionally frame the equality activists as bilateral aggressors. I take some pains to not look like a MRA/Troll but there are limits to my writing ability and the trolls are fine tuned.

    I understand that PZ wants a safe space (I’m using that in the jargon way) for the non-MRA side of the scale. That’s great. There exists a middle path where we all agree to work along – I’m not interested in that. Much of FTB is already in that space. I’m arguing that there are real allies and likely even in-group members being driven off by tribalistic irrational lashing out. I would count myself in that number and the zoo squad below as the ones lashing out.

    Noone behaves as badly as those who are among friends (or alone). This, a public blog free to anyone, is not private space even though safe-space intentions make it feel that way.

    @Josh, Official SpokesGay
    @adamarmstrong
    @Kassad
    @and anyone else I missed who were incapable of not engaging with out acting like a bully tribe with strikes to a strawman of me, your concerns are noted. You are in error though I don’t expect you to believe me.

    I find bullying morally bad. If I could at least tell that you read my point or could entertain it without irrationally lashing out, then your objections would carry some weight.

  100. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Noone behaves as badly as those who are among friends (or alone). This, a public blog free to anyone, is not private space even though safe-space intentions make it feel that way.

    @Josh, Official SpokesGay
    @adamarmstrong
    @Kassad
    @and anyone else I missed who were incapable of not engaging with out acting like a bully tribe with strikes to a strawman of me, your concerns are noted. You are in error though I don’t expect you to believe me.

    And the whining of the golden calf continues. Will someone please melt it down already.

  101. otrame says

    I’m sure it’s possible to write D/s romance without making it so… sleazy, but that one wasn’t it.

    You’re right. It is possible. But the only one I know of is fan fiction. Google Marcos Ties that Bind. Warning: very explicit sex.

    Mind you, I have little interest in the porn part of the story. BDSM leaves me cold at best (not saying there is anything wrong with consensual BDSM, just that it is not my thing). I read that series because it is loving and romantic and a well-written story about a society in which almost everyone is either dominant or submissive. I picked up 50 Shades at the bookstore the other day and read the first three or four paragraphs. Yech.

  103. kassad says

    @baal
    My intention was not to pile on and I did not see your comment #55 (should have refreshed) until after I post my comment. I added the /snark because of the “human penises / vagina-life support” thing.
    I do not think your point was fundamentaly wrong (exept the /snark misread) but it was poorly timed and/or phrased.

    Sorry if it was perceived as hostility.

  104. Brownian says

    Brownian, I really like the vast majority of your posts except when you join in tribal rah-rah.

    Since we’re doing the “why is it okay in one context and not in the other”, I’d like to know just how it is that people are able to distinguish (and dismiss) agreement in the case of ‘tribal rah-rah’ from the cases of agreement because a number of people find a similar set of arguments compelling.

    I’m not saying I don’t engage in tribal rah-rah (though, as someone with an anthropology background, I don’t shudder at the very concept the same way skeptitarian dogma demands*), but I’d like you, Baal, to explain to me in clear and simple terms how you distinguish between the vast majority of my posts from me joining in tribal rah-rah.

    Characterizing all men as pee-pees is dehumanizing.

    Sure is. Also, setting cats on fire is abhorrently cruel. Good thing that neither of those things happened in this post.

    *See what I did there>?

  105. baal says

    @ Greggory,

    I’m aware of the historical nature of context and why it’s relevant.

    I read the other threads as they came by and didn’t read Audleys comments as effectively invoking the context outside of this thread. As you note, I did read past the word “Misandrist!”

    I continue to believe that the safe-space PZ creates here comes at a price. That price is de-repressed folks being abusive. I’m torn (but clearly leaning against). I abhor abusiveness. On the other hand, here, in Pharyngula, it may be necessary. It may be that unless a reader sees some damage inflicted (or even excessive amounts of abusiveness directed toward the patriarchy), the safe space cannot exist.

  107. baal says

    @Kassad @103
    thank you

    I do not think your point was fundamentaly wrong (exept the /snark misread) but it was poorly timed and/or phrased.

    Part of my point is that it’s really hard to have good timing or phrasing, particularly if you don’t read things the right way each and every time.

    Part of that difficultly is clearly intentional by PZ by how he makes and frames his posts. I can’t think off the top of my head that i’ve had a substantive disagreement with his posts. The commenters are the ones who engage in bad behaviour at some low rate.

    Also, I’m going to stop posting in this thread.

  109. dogeared, spotted and foxed says

    baal, you were gonna be friends but then someone used the word “pee-pee” wrong?

  110. Brownian says

    Further to my comment, I’d say that all of my comments constitute ‘tribal rah-rah’ depending on how one wants to delineate the tribe.

  111. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I continue to believe that the safe-space PZ creates here comes at a price.

    Bawl, you act like we care more about what a newbie like yourself thinks (false presupposition) than what the other regulars think. This is typical of MRAs, liberturds, godbots, and others who think authoratatively. At the moment, you also sound like a petulant person who isn’t being given the adolation they feel they deserve for their “brilliant posts” we see as barely coherent drivel. Your tone trolling is confirming that you are one to be ignored and/mocked. This is a shark tank. Either take criticism or get out. I suggest the latter. If you want to join, lose the tone trolling.

  113. CT says

    de-repressed

    de-repressed != depressed

    I don’t think anyway… feel free to correct me, I’m bored.

  115. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    @Josh, Official SpokesGay
    @adamarmstrong
    @Kassad
    @and anyone else I missed who were incapable of not engaging with out acting like a bully tribe with strikes to a strawman of me, your concerns are noted. You are in error though I don’t expect you to believe me.

    I’m perfectly capable of having it pointed out that I’m wrong.

    But honestly, climb down off Mount Hyperbole. “Bully tribe?” Jesus Christ. Do not pull that shit with me. I’m sick of the bullshit co-optation of the term “bullying” by people who aren’t being fagbashed, sexually harassed, raped, or worse. You weren’t bullied. You were dismissively insulted. There’s a difference and you’ve been here long enough to grow a thicker skin.

    I made fun of you (I may have read you wrong, but I’m reserving judgment). That’s all. It’s not bullying. It’s not melodramatic.

  116. says

    Baal:

    @Audley, I apologize for misreading.

    Well, that’s a start.

    @Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle Thanks, I will assume I’m simply wrong that the /snark does solve the sexist language usage. I doubt I’m alone in not getting that.

    Food for thought: Occasionally while arguing against various misogynists, one of the men here will snarkily say “bitchez ain’t shit, am I right?” or something to that effect.

    Would you knee jerk reaction be the same? (I have my doubts.)

    Characterizing all men as pee-pees is dehumanizing. I misread the /snark as a limit on that excessive and bad characterization.

    Honest question: when you were in school, were you taught how to read for comprehension?

    I mean, Jesus. I’ve been accused of tripping Poe’s Law in the past, but I still can’t comprehend how you missed that it was mockery of a specific subject. I other words, I wasn’t being subtle.

    I’m arguing that there are real allies and likely even in-group members being driven off by tribalistic irrational lashing out. I would count myself in that number and the zoo squad below as the ones lashing out.

    Hate to break it to you, but you are no ally of mine.

    We cannot be all things to all people. If you can’t handle the viper pit, there’s absolutely nothing stopping you from getting the fuck out of here.

    @and anyone else I missed who were incapable of not engaging with out acting like a bully tribe with strikes to a strawman of me, your concerns are noted. You are in error though I don’t expect you to believe me.

    Strawman? Dude, you were the one incapable of reading between the lines and acting all pee pee hurt ‘cos you thought that I reduced all men to their penises. Sometimes, some arguments (especially when they sound like MRA assholery) just aren’t worth a well thought out response.

    Quite frankly, you’re lucky that I (and maybe Josh) just didn’t resort to just yelling herp a derp! at you.

  117. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    @114—please be sure bring your own tissues and clean up after your hoggling.

  118. baal says

    @ Brownian @104

    /sigh, I didn’t see your post before promising to stop.

    how you distinguish between the vast majority of my posts from me joining in tribal rah-rah.

    Having spent too much time here and guessing this touched an identity nerve*, I’ll give the short answer though it’s no less an assertion. You have in-group status and that’s not possible with out waving the right pedipalps.

    *and so no, I intentionally did not see what you did there. Having seen the cat video (briefly, it didn’t need the entirety), I fail to see that I’ve been awful enough to merit having it tied to me. This intentionally hurtful act on your part is an example of the pedipalp waving that’s needed to be in the in-group.

    Your greater point about doing unto me the obnoxious trolling tactics of MRA to see how I like it is not lost on me. It’s still shitty to do it (M&M is the slim-shady, as noted elsewhere, you are what you pretend).

    Difficulty in writing to the standards of you and the other commentaterate is something you all, taring the group broadly, just don’t get. It’s silencing a segment that you all clearly don’t value that is not MRA or equivalent. Or at least silencing to folks who do not (or cannot) communicate in your preferred form.

  119. Et Al, The Frequently Published says

    LOL <3 I love this comic, Sinfest is great. Trying to read through the comments, sorry this is only about the OP, gotta try catching up :s

  120. says

    I continue to believe that the safe-space PZ creates here comes at a price. That price is de-repressed folks being abusive. I’m torn (but clearly leaning against). I abhor abusiveness. On the other hand, here, in Pharyngula, it may be necessary. It may be that unless a reader sees some damage inflicted (or even excessive amounts of abusiveness directed toward the patriarchy), the safe space cannot exist.

    Let’s say that’s true, that there’s a price. That price is paid by the people being “abused” and for the most part they deserve the sort of low-level insult and “abuse”. If you want to play the shithead game of stripping all context out of the situation, you can get to a position where the regulars are abusive “simply because you disagree with them.” The reality is that the trolls who show up for these sorts of topics are abusive in ways that can be actually harmful to people with specific traumas. If in order to head off that sort of abuse, the Horde jumps in and says “fuck you pineapple-style!” on a hair trigger, too bad.

    What harm is done by a little preemptive defensiveness? Someone with no actual emotional investment in the issue gets their fee-fees hurt?

  121. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Nevermind. Baal, this phone call is for you. Says he’s “the world’s smallest derp” and that he’s herping for you. Shall I take a message?

  122. ChasCPeterson says

    “hoggling”? lol.

    Josh, my comment was both accurate and apposite to the conversation just above.
    Unless you wish to argue that NoR’s ‘newbies vs. us regulars’ rhetoric is not fairly characterized as ‘tribal rah-rah’? Because if not I don;t know what would be.

  123. Gregory Greenwood says

    Audley Z Darkheart (love nurtures boundless chaos) @ 102;

    I love seeing my post deconstructed like that! ;)

    I just hope I got it more or less right. I am sorry if I came off as trying to put words in your mouth – in hindsight I realise how condescending it must be that I took it upon myself to explain your post to Baal, when you are more than capable of doing it yourself, and probably with substantially more style and aplomb.

  124. Emrysmyrddin says

    There’s a reason why the motto for More Awesome Than You is LURK MOAR. I vote that Pharyngula adds it to the lewd, rude and crude paragraph.

  125. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    *and so no, I intentionally did not see what you did there. Having seen the cat video (briefly, it didn’t need the entirety), I fail to see that I’ve been awful enough to merit having it tied to me. This intentionally hurtful act on your part is an example of the pedipalp waving that’s needed to be in the in-group.

    You mean, you fail to see that you overlooked the sarcasm of Audley’s statement, called her on her “misandry” and got teased for it. If this this the worse thing that happens to you today, you had a fucking easy day.

  126. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Oh Chas. It’s perfectly obvious you’re addicted to hating Pharyngula and tumescing over every goddamned bit of displayed loyalty or contextual behavior. You make no distinction between dangerous, questionable, or reasonable deployments of tribal loyalty (there are differences). For some reason, you get off on it. It looks damned near obsessive to anyone outside your own brain. Back in the day (those halcyon days of your imagination when Pharyngula was Friendship-Free and located on Vulcan pre-Star Trek retcon) you were quite happy to be seen as a regular here. Whatevs.

  127. nooneinparticular says

    Excuse the interruption, but can someone give this clueless acronym-challenged git the meaning of “PUA”?

    Panthers Unite America?
    Poopyheads Uber Alles?
    Pointy Underwear Abusers?

    *sigh*
    Kids these days.

    -NIP, Still not sure what FTW means.

  128. says

    I’m kind of hurt. Here I am, posting here for just a few days now, and not once has anyone called me a noob or suggested that I’m a troll.

    It’s…it’s almost as if the content of what you post matters or something.

  129. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    It is so good that Chas is here to stand up for the fools. And if he can get some shots in, all the better for him.

  131. says

    Gregory,
    No, it’s fine!

    I’m a wee bit handicapped here– trying to write out a lengthy response on a smart phone isn’t the easiest thing. Editing is even harder. Couple that with “gah! Do I have to try to explain humor*” and my frustration level was totally peaking.

    I appreciate the help and the kind words. :)

    *Remember kids, satire is about “punching up” not “punching down”.

  132. susan says

    This is a terrific comic, perfectly succinct–and it will come in quite handy as a useful link for me. Thanks, PZ and Tatsuya Ishida!

  133. CT says

    FTW – for the win

    PUA – Pick up artists

    NIP – new in package — you saw this *here*??

  134. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    It’s…it’s almost as if the content of what you post matters or something

    Balderdash. That’s just your fluffy, pink lady-brain confusing you with hormonal emotions. You need an emergency infusion of Testosteroil to balance you out!

  137. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    It’s…it’s almost as if the content of what you post matters or something.

    noob

  138. CT says

    Caerie
    21 June 2012 at 12:44 pm
    I’m kind of hurt. Here I am, posting here for just a few days now, and not once has anyone called me a noob or suggested that I’m a troll.

    It’s…it’s almost as if the content of what you post matters or something.

    me too. yeah, I hate it when people do that me too crap. um, fuckenshite or whatever might help me fit in. :)

  139. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    I continue to believe that the safe-space PZ creates here comes at a price. That price is de-repressed folks being abusive.

    Well, there’s goes the benefit of the doubt for you. First let’s deal with “de-repressed”. So – having one fucking blog on which to post that doesn’t allow bigots free reign over the place is what constitutes “de-repressed”? And these magically “de-repressed” people are being “abusive” by not being able to read your mind, or in some other way being magically able to just know you aren’t just another bigot troll – despite talking only about how mean we are to men and not about the actual topic at all. Your complete failure to make a point clearly is the fault of “de-repressed” people.

    Yeah. Great.

  140. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Please, do not indulge stupid and nervy requests from commenters like nooneinparticular. When they’re not outright lying by pretending they don’t understand acronyms that have been used in conversations they’ve participated in they’re acting like they’ve never heard of Google and that we’re their secretaries. Make them look up their own fucking information.

  142. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Caerie, what can be said? You have successfully blended in with the in tribe here.

    At least that is until you make a rather silly statement and get mocked for it.

    At that point, you will be cast into the Lake Of Fire.

  144. Brownian says

    @114—please be sure bring your own tissues and clean up after your hoggling.

    No, Chas is correct:

    Bawl, you act like we care more about what a newbie like yourself thinks (false presupposition) than what the other regulars think.

    is pretty much what I think people mean when they talk about tribalism.

    You have in-group status

    I am, perhaps unsurprisingly, more aware of this fact than anyone else. I know very well that I can get away with behaviour that others can’t. What people often do not realise is that I also can and do use my privileged in-group status to call out others with in-group status in a way that those who don’t have in-group status cannot. Because regardless of what some would have us believe, authority counts, and it is earned. (I also know that I have a particular type of personality that grants me an easier time at earning authority status, but that’s another discussion.)

    Your greater point about doing unto me the obnoxious trolling tactics of MRA to see how I like it is not lost on me.

    That’s not what I was doing, and I think the fault lies with my lack of clarification. (Or maybe I’m misreading you, and you actually do understand what I mean to do.)

    What that was meant to do was to highlight how the use of handy, dismissive terms, whether it be talking about “Teh Menz” or “Concern Troll” or using terms like “Hive Mind” or “tribalism” allows us to ignore arguments coming from the side we disagree with, without actually rebutting them.

    So in reality, we all practice this sort of silencing behaviour, and we’re often aware of it, but in each case what most of us are doing is making some sort of estimation as to the relative damage that silencing one group vs. the damage that silencing another will cause, recognising that no productive conversation whatsoever can happen if everyone is accorded equal time and respect at the mike. Trolls do exist, after all.

  145. CT says

    When they’re not outright lying by pretending they don’t understand acronyms that have been used in conversations they’ve participated in they’re acting like they’ve never heard of Google and that we’re their secretaries.

    The information was right there in my brain, it wasn’t like I had to work for it. I deal with far too many clueless asshats to be surprised that someone will ask what an acronym means of complete strangers.

  146. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    It is so good that Chas is here to stand up for the fools. And if he can get some shots in, all the better for him.

    Did he post how bored he is and how boring the topic is again . .. and again and again and again and again?

  147. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Brownian–I’m not denying we engage in tribalism. I’m accusing Chas of failing to make critical distinctions about its use. This is clarified in a later comment.

  148. nooneinparticular says

    spokesgay…WTF?

    …what an ass. Sure I could google things or I could just ask the Phine Pholks at Pharyngula. Who the fuck are you to tell me what to do? Why the fuck would a simple question like that prompt you to respond the way you do? You got nothing better to do? If you don’t like me, just ignore me, no reason for you to make yourself look like an ass.

    I think I know the appropriate place for you to put this dead porcupine I have.

  149. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    Who is nooneinparticular and who gave them a key to the porcupine shed? Damnit, y’all – we’ve got to keep better track of those damn keys!

  150. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    Bawl, you act like we care more about what a newbie like yourself thinks (false presupposition) than what the other regulars think.

    I’m not part of Nerd’s “we”, and I’d just as soon he didn’t speak for me.

    Regulars here are generally interesting (but not always), but so are less frequent or new posters (but not always).

    If you don’t see how this comment is completely ironic (and I believe unintentionally so), then irony must be completely lost on you. I don’t know that I would characterize much of this discussion as tribal rah-rah, but NoR’s #111 defies any other distinction.

  151. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Unless you wish to argue that NoR’s ‘newbies vs. us regulars’ rhetoric is not fairly characterized as ‘tribal rah-rah’? Because if not I don;t know what would be.

    I would characterize my post as saying Bawl needs some humility. Too many first time posters seem to think that we (or any other blog with a commentariat) will immediately change the tenor of the commentariat just because of their posted opinions. That is an unrealitic expectation on their part for any blog, much less a well established blog like Pharyngula. While we may slowly change, it will never be instantaneous just because of their initial posts. Unless, of course, they have evidence equivalent to the eternally burning bush.

  152. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    So in reality, we all practice this sort of silencing behaviour, and we’re often aware of it, but in each case what most of us are doing is making some sort of estimation as to the relative damage that silencing one group vs. the damage that silencing another will cause, recognising that no productive conversation whatsoever can happen if everyone is accorded equal time and respect at the mike.

    Oh shut up Brownian…

    Was that out loud?

    /kidding

    I happen to agree with the whole post.

  156. Brownian says

    Brownian–I’m not denying we engage in tribalism. I’m accusing Chas of failing to make critical distinctions about its use. This is clarified in a later comment.

    Oops, I forgot to post my addendum that I agree with your comment 126.

    Even a bored Chas is right twice a day, or whatever it was that Ol’ Granny Brownian used to say.

  157. Gregory Greenwood says

    Audley Z Darkheart, reducing all men to their pee-pees since 1981

    No, it’s fine!

    Alrighty then. Sometimes I can run off at the mouth (or, in this case, fingers) a bit, so I just want to be sure that I am not being unintentionally obnoxious.

    I’m a wee bit handicapped here– trying to write out a lengthy response on a smart phone isn’t the easiest thing. Editing is even harder.

    Commenting via smartphone must be a trial – predictive text is the bane of my existence. ‘Tis an abominable thing dreamed up in the ninth circle of Microsoft hell, I tell you!

    I appreciate the help and the kind words. :)

    Why, ma’am, it was my pleasure as an officer* and a gentleman**…

    *soliloque*

    Ahh.. that hits the spot – now that my man fee-fees (IMPORTANT) are suitably salved, I can go about my day without screaming about teh ebil feminazi conspiracy all the time…

    */soliloque*

    ;-P

    —————————————————————-

    * But only if RPGs count…

    ** Please note – this in no way forms a contract obligating me to behave in any gentlemanly fashion in the future, whether it be wearing a monocle or defending my honour with pistols at dawn.

  158. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    I don’t know that I would characterize much of this discussion as tribal rah-rah, but NoR’s #111 defies any other distinction.

    Wait a minute . . .. I’m confused. Are you saying that pointing out how baal’s posts sounded identical to the common JAQing off or tone trolling comments we get is tribalism? Because that’s what #111 says.

    sidebar: what is the working definition of “tribalism” here? Is “tribalism” just a code word for ‘echo chamber/deeeeeppppriiiiiifts’?

  160. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    sidebar: what is the working definition of “tribalism” here? Is “tribalism” just a code word for ‘echo chamber/deeeeeppppriiiiiifts’?

    Read Lord Of The Flies or listen to Not One Of Us. That should give you a working definition.

    You’re not one of us.
    Not one of us.
    No! You’re not one of us.

  161. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Thankfully, predictive text/auto correct isn’t my problem (I use a ‘Droid. Can you not turn that shit off on an iPhone?), but not so thankfully, the mobile Chrome browser makes it a pain in the tits to navigate the reply box (for editing and whatnot).

    I am being oppressed. Audley just reduced all women to tits.

  162. says

    @and anyone else I missed who were incapable of not engaging without acting like a bully tribe

    I’m aghast that I wasn’t specifically named. What am I? Tribesman #3 with sharp rock?

    My fee fees are hurt AND I have a penis. It’s very important! Who do I complain to ?!?

  164. Gregory Greenwood says

    Audley Z Darkheart, reducing all men to their pee-pees since 1981 @ 159;

    Thankfully, predictive text/auto correct isn’t my problem (I use a ‘Droid. Can you not turn that shit off on an iPhone?)

    I don’t doubt that it is possible to turn predictive text off on my mobile phone, or rather it would be if I didn’t have all the technical ability of a haddock.

    That said, I don’t own anything capable of such high tech sorcery as mobile internet through wi-fi, and so I comment on my home computer, built with the finest neolithic technology*.

    but not so thankfully, the mobile Chrome browser makes it a pain in the tits to navigate the reply box (for editing and whatnot).

    Darn techno-gremlins – if they don’t get you one way, they get you another.

    —————————————————————-

    * Not so much ‘intel inside(TM)’ as ‘tiny treadmill powered by rats inside(TM)’…

  165. Brownian says

    sidebar: what is the working definition of “tribalism” here? Is “tribalism” just a code word for ‘echo chamber/deeeeeppppriiiiiifts’?

    That seems to be the functional definition of it, yes.

    Having said that, I’m going to suggest that further discussion on the topic of tribalism be relegated to TZT, or even better, its own thread, and that this conversation return to the topic of the cartoon in the OP.

  166. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    You never know who I’m going to oppress next!

    The fact that you are pregnant oppresses me!

    *sniff*

  167. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    Having said that, I’m going to suggest that further discussion on the topic of tribalism be relegated to TZT, or even better, its own thread, and that this conversation return to the topic of the cartoon in the OP.

    Too late. Drift happens.

  168. Louis says

    I would like it noted at this point that I hate all of you, especially Brownian, and that this topic is very boring and that all of you are tribal except me and except when I want to be.

    I love you guys.

    Louis

  169. Emrysmyrddin says

    I’ve found that usually, on here, accusations of tribalism translate to: “Doesn’t agree with me!1!(ZOMG)”

  171. What a Maroon, Applied Linguist of Slight Foreboding says

    Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!

  172. ChasCPeterson says

    Is “tribalism” just a code word for ‘echo chamber/deeeeeppppriiiiiifts’?

    That seems to be the functional definition of it, yes.

    It’s never been my functional definition. I’ve always been referring to us-vs.-them rhetoric, wagon-circling, and attack-gang-joining based on perceived in-group status rather than content.

    I’ve found that usually, on here, accusations of tribalism translate to: “Doesn’t agree with me!1!(ZOMG)”

    Can you find a specific example of that usage, please?

  173. Louis says

    I want to have a baby.

    Where’s the foetus going to gestate? In a box?

    Don’t you oppress me.

    Etc.

    Louis

  174. Emrysmyrddin says

    Can you grow a sense of humour and a hyperbole detector? It’d make your time here so much more enjoyable.

  175. Janine: History’s Greatest Monster says

    What is sad is that I’ve heard infertile women use that argument– your pregnancy opresses me!– to silence women who have had abortions. *headshake*

    Fuck! I hate it when my jokes become reality.

  177. Brownian says

    Too late. Drift happens.

    Okay. I’m just trying to be aware of yet another thread about sexism being coopted to talk about something else.

    I would like it noted at this point that I hate all of you, especially Brownian

    Frankly, I consider it an indictment of humanity as a whole that more people don’t feel the same way as Louis, and that I’m still walking around free.

    [Somewhere, in meatspace, Illithid just high-fived himself, and then immediately thought about how it was women’s fault that no one else was there for him to high-five.]

  178. Emrysmyrddin says

    Generally, inserting numerical ‘ones’ into Terry Pratchett-defying herds of roving exclamation marks points that out.

  179. chigau (違う) says

    I refuse to use the word “tribe” in any way other than as an anthropological term.
    So there.
    *ppthhbt*

  180. Emrysmyrddin says

    Back on topic, the deconstruction of Fifty Shades of Grey here has me clutching my ribs. I always suspected that it was a Twilight for (just-about)grown-up Mary Sues, but I didn’t expect it to run at such obvious parallels. It’s ticklesome (I have to laugh or else I practice headdesking until my forehead is bloody at the ease with which such bad writing makes a fortune…).

  181. ChasCPeterson says

    right, right, the whole punctuation thing.

    So, then, you had no actual point to make? Just a content-free quip with no tether to an actual observation or opinion? Just free-floating mockery with no actual target?

    Who did you think would find it funny?

  182. Emrysmyrddin says

    And the (usual)lack of gender politics in slash fiction is one of the reasons I keep coming back for more, too. You get the romance/shagging/relationship dynamic stuff without the author feeling the need to stick Mary Sue eyelash-fluttering and manly man rescuer white knight Gary Stu annoyances in there.
    Obviously, as it’s fanfic, you have to have your crap-writing detector set to nuclear.

  184. Brownian says

    It’s never been my functional definition. I’ve always been referring to us-vs.-them rhetoric, wagon-circling, and attack-gang-joining based on perceived in-group status rather than content.

    And how is that different than “Hive mind!”, considering the part that I’ve bolded, being a matter of intent, is unambiguously clear to all participants?

    But, no matter.

    For the record, everyone, Chas uses the terms correctly.

  186. Brownian says

    Who did you think would find it funny?

    [Circles the wagons, puts war paint on his face, and marries the chief’s sister.]

    I laughed.

    If it bothers you, go get Custer.

  187. says

    Chas hon, you need to quote the name and/or the erm… quote so we know what you’re talking about. I may have laughed, I might not.

    Then again maybe “someone” sucked all the fun out of whatever joke was being made.

  188. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    Saying that m/m is without gender role stuff is inaccurate. There’s plenty of crap about how the bottom is effeminate, for example.

    But it is different.

    Of course, I remember speaking with a friend of mine about why m/m is so popular amongst straight women.

    I proposed a series of theories (non-threatening, gender-roles, etc). She looked at me incredulously.

    “Seriously!? Why do you think straight men watch lesbian porn? All the stuff that’s hot, none of the stuff that you’re not attracted to!”

  189. peggin says

    Emrysmyrddin

    And the (usual)lack of gender politics in slash fiction is one of the reasons I keep coming back for more, too. You get the romance/shagging/relationship dynamic stuff without the author feeling the need to stick Mary Sue eyelash-fluttering and manly man rescuer white knight Gary Stu annoyances in there.

    Oh, if only this were always true! Unfortunately, there’s an awful lot of slash fanfic out there where the characters are wildly out of character and the writer has one of the guys doing the whole fluttering eyes thing and the other guy doing the whole manly man rescuer white knight thing. I don’t get the point. If I wanted that, I could just go pick up a mainstream het romance novel. If you want to write a story about two guys, write a story about two guys!

  190. Brownian says

    I refuse to use the word “tribe” in any way other than as an anthropological term.

    You too?

    I have an old shoebox full of tapes by “A [blotch of Wite-Out] Called Quest”. I refuse to eat Wint-O-Green Lifesavers in the dark just in case someone asks me what the flashing phenomenon is called. Hell, I won’t even walk past newspaper stands in Chicago.

  191. Emrysmyrddin says

    Obviously, as it’s fanfic, you have to have your crap-writing detector set to nuclear.

    I should have made this clearer. Good slash doesn’t have any of that bottom effeminate/top manly-manly-manman stuff.

  192. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    Are you saying that pointing out how baal’s posts sounded identical to the common JAQing off or tone trolling comments we get is tribalism? Because that’s what #111 says.

    #111 doesn’t provide anything of substance. To NoR, baal is a “newbie” not a regular, and therefore doesn’t deserve a substantial rebuttal.

    And how is that different than “Hive mind!”,…

    Does it matter if it is? If the shoe fits, &cetera. Lots of comments directed at baal were substantial. But NoRs is an appeal to tribalism. That’s just what the fuck it is.

    I’ll desist in participating in this derail.

  193. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    I’m not really comfortable with the bottom effeminante/top manly-man = bad thing.

    I mean, plenty of gay men do fit that stereotype.

    What is problematic is when it is presented as “you’re a bottom, therefore you’re effeminate and swishy and like pink and have lots of fag hags” as if there is no other acceptable option.

    In fanfic, it is extra bad when the characterization of a character goes to them being this kind of bottom, no matter what their characterization in the original work is, just because they’re now the bottom.

  194. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Let us not forget the next level up, and even more fantastical.

    Where the man realises that pestering her in the first place is inappropriate.

    Do we know this was in a context where *A* proposition for sex was actually inappropriate?

  195. Louis says

    Emrysmyrddin,

    I found the joke funny…

    …well I did if it is okay with Chas if I did. I wouldn’t want to offend the Internet Police by engaging in TEH TRIBALISMS.

    Louis

    P.S. Audley, I am a seahorse, but only on Tuesdays. Which leaves me Thursdays for that thing PZ and I do, Sundays for cross dressing, Monday, Wednesday and Friday for being Wrong On The Internet (BIIIIIG SIN) and Saturday for being drunk as a lord dipped in a barrel of port.

  196. says

    I should have made this clearer. Good slash doesn’t have any of that bottom effeminate/top manly-manly-manman stuff.

    I think the goal should be to treat the characters as people first. Might a character be younger, thinner, more effeminate and a bottom? Sure. However, it’s when this turns into some sort of coded role that it becomes a problem. That’s the issue that so many books fail with.

    One author of paranormal fiction that I enjoy is fantastic when she sticks to strong heroines, but the second she dips into situations where a man takes center stage at moving the action it collapses into “oh, aren’t men so gloriously dominant?” crap.

  197. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    The argument is EXACTELY “you do… whatever. As long as I can keep my cock warm…”

    At this point, you pull a small woollen sock out of your pocket and hand it over. “Here you go.”

  198. Louis says

    Audley,

    We can’t even tag posts in an obvious fashion and get our points across!

    Well imagine how I feel. I mean I’m Britishish for fuck’s sake, we invented sarcasm.* The levels I have to lower myself to so that Americans, and more importantly even Canadians, and worse than that Brownian, can understand are just very painful.** No one has a rally for me do they. NO ONE. Not even a little parade. Bastards.

    NO ONE FEELS MY ENTIRELY FICTIONAL AND COMPLETELY FABRICATED PAIN!!!!!1111!!!!!! NO ONE UNDERSTANDS!!!!! I WANNA BIKKIT!

    Louis

    * We didn’t but we like to tell everyone we did, it’s all we have left now th’Empire is gorn.

    ** For the sake of seriousnessness and completatoryation, some of the best and most sarcastic bastards I know are from the Americas.*** I am not a fan of Yank bashing.**** I apologise if my moderate and entirely tongue in cheek Yank Bash here has caused offence. But hey, don’t worry, you’re all too fat and stupid to remember it, and you’ll have probably shot and/or executed each other for being the wrong sort of bellicose fundamentalist within, what, a minute?

    *** Light blue touch paper, retire 12 feet…3…2…

    **** I’m genuinely not, I wonder if anyone will get their knickers in a knot about something entirely jocular.

  200. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    #111 doesn’t provide anything of substance. To NoR, baal is a “newbie” not a regular, and therefore doesn’t deserve a substantial rebuttal.

    Hmm. That’s not the way I read it at all.

    #111 says:

    Bawl, you act like we care more about what a newbie like yourself thinks (false presupposition) than what the other regulars think. This is typical of MRAs, liberturds, godbots, and others who think authoratatively. At the moment, you also sound like a petulant person who isn’t being given the adolation they feel they deserve for their “brilliant posts” we see as barely coherent drivel. Your tone trolling is confirming that you are one to be ignored and/mocked. This is a shark tank. Either take criticism or get out. I suggest the latter. If you want to join, lose the tone trolling.

    Emphasis mine. Its saying that baal is sounding like a garden variety troll and, if baal wants to get on well here, to drop the tone trolling. This isn’t about newbies not deserving a “substantial rebuttal” but about how bigot trolls don’t deserve such. This is about not being able to mind-read new posters regarding whether or not they’re just garden variety trolls. Which Caerie and CT perfectly proved with their posts about NOT having been piled on despite being nOObs.

  201. Brownian says

    AE, I agreed with Chas (and you) about NoR’s #111.

    My comment about “And how is that different than “Hive mind!”” had to do more with Chas’ assertion regarding his functional use of the term. Hmm, maybe I was unclear about the latter.

    If the shoe fits, &cetera

    That’s what I’m trying to get a handle on. The term is so overused (as is “Hivemind!”) that it’s generally indistinguishable from a desire to silence unwanted comments. In the context of “newbie like yourself” vs. “the other regulars” I think it’s a somewhat clear cut case, though obviously, others disagree.

    But that doesn’t mean that all are, hence my question to Baal upon Baal’s first use of the term.

    Incidentally, to Baal,

    Having seen the cat video (briefly, it didn’t need the entirety), I fail to see that I’ve been awful enough to merit having it tied to me. This intentionally hurtful act on your part is an example of the pedipalp waving that’s needed to be in the in-group

    I don’t understand this. What cat video? What hurtful act? I did not intend to insult you, Baal, and if you could explain what you mean, I can maybe clarify.

    Just to be clear, I wasn’t linking to the Victim 101 thread to insinuate that Baal was acting like karlvonmarx (if indeed that’s what ‘having it tied to me’ means), but to illustrate that Audley’s comment was a clear description of karlvonmarx’s comments.

  202. Emrysmyrddin says

    I feel your pain, Louis. I can even salute the Mandatory Six-Foot Portrait of Her Maj hanging on my wall every day with a straight face; maybe we chose sarcasm for our Olympic contribution *wanders off to check, oh, and refill*

  203. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    Why would Azkyroth want a picture of the Worst Band In All Of History Behind Nickelback?

    . … oh, i c. lol

    And Louis – please stop. My stomach hurts!

  204. Brownian says

    Oh, I get it. My reference to setting cats on fire.

    Fuck, that was not a reference to anything, and definitely not a reference to anything you did, Baal. I was comparing (random bad thing I came up with in my head) with “Characterizing all men as pee-pees is dehumanizing” and noting that neither thing happened in this thread, so they were both irrelevant.

    My apologies if you thought that it was a reference to something you did, Baal.

  205. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    After reading the OP and the thread, all I can really say is that I loved the comment, and my new (sub?)nym is remarkably apropos.

  206. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    The comic. Goddamn typos.

  207. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    You know, it’s really alarming to realize that almost everyone who voices agreement with my own feeling that the comments here can become extremely toxic is a fucking moron. This has given me quite a bit of pause regarding my discomfort with it, but I keep re-examining my position and finding it sound. :/

  208. says

    Do we know this was in a context where *A* proposition for sex was actually inappropriate?

    Well, the woman in the cartoon describes his actions as pestering. If you have so failed at social communication that your advances make you a “pest” in the eyes of the other person then you’ve made even an “appropriate” situation into an innapropriate one.

  209. bjtunwarm says

    (assuming this is about sex, and not “No, I won’t return the money I just borrow from you”)

    “No” she said

    “Ok” He said, respecting her choice and turned away to talk to another.

    “Hey wait a minute. What are you doing?” She said

    “You said no.” He replied “and no means no”

    “So what? You just gave up because I said no right now. What kind of man are you? Your a wimp.” She said, “say,.. you must be gay,..”

    “You observed you found me physically repulsive” he said with growing exasperation.

    “And? Were did I say you should stop paying attention to me? Just because you are an ugly toad doesn’t mean you can’t pine for me!” she replied indigently “Make moon eyes at me, do me favors I will never replay and let me judge your entire life”

    “Oh brother,..” he said

    ***

    Would it be that easy that people clearly stated their preferences. Except, of course nothing is that simple.

  210. Louis says

    Askyroth,

    The two positions are not mutually exclusive.

    The comments here can become extremely toxic. Some consider that a feature not a bug. Everyone’s mileage may vary.

    Being a fucking moron, however, means that one cannot deal with the argument as presented and has to whinge about Teh Meen™. The fact that real meanness exists is not excluded by the moronity of those people who leap for tone arguments.

    Louis

  212. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Shorter 209:

    “Women only say no to manipulate you. White knights! Betas! Negging!”

  214. Emrysmyrddin says

    assuming this is about sex

    Bloody hell, it is a comic about Fifty Shades of Grey, in which the main male character is a stalker control freak emotionally abusive Dream-Man™ a la Edward ‘Me-Sparkly’ Cullen; do keep up.

  215. Brownian says

    “No” she said

    “Ok” He said, respecting her choice and turned away to talk to another.

    “Hey wait a minute. What are you doing?” She said

    “You said no.” He replied “and no means no”

    “So what? You just gave up because I said no right now. What kind of man are you? Your a wimp.” She said, “say,.. you must be gay,..”

    “You observed you found me physically repulsive” he said with growing exasperation.

    “And? Were did I say you should stop paying attention to me? Just because you are an ugly toad doesn’t mean you can’t pine for me!” she replied indigently “Make moon eyes at me, do me favors I will never replay and let me judge your entire life”

    “Oh brother,..” he said

    [Checks the title of the OP. It still reads “A totally unbelievable fantasy”.]

    Okay, that fits.

  216. says

    Louis, may I partake of your popcorn before the main bout. I’ve finished all mine but it appears I may get to see screen time after all.

    Oh well, so much for not getting embroiled in this again.

  217. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Being a fucking moron, however, means that one cannot deal with the argument as presented and has to whinge about Teh Meen™. The fact that real meanness exists is not excluded by the moronity of those people who leap for tone arguments.

    I’ve noticed that and I also notice that the tone trolls tend to fail to make a distinction between uncompromising criticism and “not THIS shit again” impatience on one hand, and outright spitefulness and a willingness to misrepresent and twist positions in order to score points and/or maintain a comfortable black-and-white separation of “US” and “THE ENEMY” on the other. Unfortunately, a lot of regulars also either fail to make this distinction and let the latter category parasitize their reasonable defenses of the former, or at least are willing to turn a blind eye to it, and I find it really troubling. I suppose my experiences of being repeatedly traumatized by bullying in other contexts may color my perspective a bit, but spitefulness in people I would consider allies is really disturbing and alienating to me, even when it’s directed at others.

  218. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Would it be that easy that people clearly stated their preferences. Except, of course nothing is that simple.

    Fortunately, your odds of meeting any of the three adult women on earth who actually approach relationships this way are pretty low. (High schoolers I can see pulling this kind of shit while they’re still learning and getting their ideas of what a relationship is from media bullshit…)

  219. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    Azkyroth – FWIW, and despite my own participation in troll-stomping, I agree with you.

  220. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Well, the woman in the cartoon describes his actions as pestering. If you have so failed at social communication that your advances make you a “pest” in the eyes of the other person then you’ve made even an “appropriate” situation into an innapropriate one.

    My reading was that the “pestering” was attached to “further,” and his accepting her “no” and letting the matter drop was being contrasted with “pestering.” I suppose this is just a semantic quibble.

  221. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    @Azkyroth

    I admit to being too quick to call someone a troll and insult them for it; it’s a by-product of having been trolled so often. It doesn’t help that trolls also like the muddy the waters more by engaging in seemingly-innocuous behavior not entirely unlike that of new people, which can cause false positives.

  222. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    To muddy. TO MUDDY. GODDAMNIT.

  223. Emptyell says

    Baal,

    Damn it! I was having so much fun reading an amusing, at times hilarious (looking at you Louis) thread. It was a great relief after all the ridiculous mansplaining cryphoons whipped out of the tropics of MRA. Then you come along with your humorless concern trolling and derail us into pee-pee tribalism.

    Can’t we just have a little fun now and then?

    BTW: I am a noob too. But nobody’s gone all tribalistic on me yet. Wonder what I’m doing wrong. Maybe it’s because my pee-pee isn’t as big as a manatee like Louis.

  224. Brownian says

    Can anyone play the “Women through the eyes of twelve-year-olds and PUAs” game? Fuck it, I don’t care.

    “No” she said

    “Ok” He said, respecting her choice and turned away to talk to another.

    “Hey wait a minute. Is your semen made of gold?” She said

    “Yes.” He replied “it’s a rare condition.”

    She whistles “Harpies of Castrulon 5! To me! I’ve found the fabled Golden Gander!”

    “What? But I was going to spend my golden semen on a new sportsca—” he said, as she grew talons and swooped him into the sky.

    Several hours later and light-years away, Goldenjizz O’Innocent finds himself in a large kitchen within a harpy’s aerie on Castrulon 5.

    “From now on, you will masturbate only for us.” she screeched “Now cook us a steak, for we don’t know how to do anything but bake!”

    Goldenjizz O’Innocent looks around, and finds that he is not alone. A human female, abducted long before the advent of Feminism, by the cut of her clothes, steps out of the shadows.

    “Hi! Tee-hee!” she giggles.

    “Are you a captive too” he asked

    “I thought of climbing out, but I’m only five-foot six and the walls are four feet high. I don’t know whether that means I’m taller than the walls or not, because, math.”

    “I learned math in school” he said

    “Oh, your manly manskills just got me pregnant. But don’t worry; I’ll take care of the baby all by myself, until it’s old enough to for you to teach it football. Do you want a beer?”

    “Yes, but not now. You see, my name is Goldenjizz O’Innocent, but my middle name is ‘Swordcock’!” and with that, his erection turned into a +4,533,982 bastard sword, and he sliced up all the harpies, and then built a Harley Davidson that could fly in space, and so he and Whatzername flew to another planet where he got a manly but not dangerous job in a bulldozer factory, and she had babies in between baking meatloaves and the only non-white in town pumped their gas.”

  225. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    @Brownian

    I think your troll fanfic should be expanded upon and published. You can call it 50 Shades of Derp.

  226. Brownian says

    You know, it’s really alarming to realize that almost everyone who voices agreement with my own feeling that the comments here can become extremely toxic is a fucking moron.

    I agree with you too, and will note that I have, at times, posted extremely toxic comments in anger.

    I’m not sure where I stand on the moron curve, though, so I don’t know if that’s a datapoint for or against your hypothesis.

  227. says

    and derail us into pee-pee tribalism.

    that would be my quote of the day…if it would make any sense outside this forum. Just for comic value.

    My reading was that the “pestering” was attached to “further,” and his accepting her “no” and letting the matter drop was being contrasted with “pestering.” I suppose this is just a semantic quibble.

    From the comic – “…and pestered her no more.” Implying that the query that led to the “no” was a pestering. I think in this case the semantics are clear.

    This is on top of the “context” of the comic strip, PLUS how the entire conversation described is “a proposal” followed by a “flat refusal”.

  228. Tethys says

    bjtunwarm

    Are you one of those poor, lonely, misunderstood nice guys ™ ?

    Did you know that there is a web-site with an entire section devoted to nice guys?

    I hope you find it informative.

  229. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    Here Brownian, I just knit you a brand new, and very fitted, internet.

  230. Rey Fox says

    I’m kind of hurt. Here I am, posting here for just a few days now, and not once has anyone called me a noob or suggested that I’m a troll.

    It’s because your handle is only two letters away from “carlie”. Effective camouflage.

  231. cicely says

    “No” she said
    [snip]
    “You observed you found me physically repulsive” he said with growing exasperation.

    She said “no”, and (as everybody knows) the only reason any woman ever turns a man down (despite the fact that all women are, simultaneously, so disinterested in sex that they have to be tricked or manipulated into it, but hey, that’s just the way the world wags, and whatcanyado?) is that she finds him “physically repulsive”. It just. isn’t. possible. that she’s otherwise occupied…or monogamously partnered with some other man…or that she is unimpressed by his style…or is waiting for a friend…or is just wanting to do a bit of solo decompression…or….

    Bit of assumption on “his” part? Projection on the part of the author?

    Goodness knows, the rest of the scenario is assumption/presumption.
    –

  232. 'Tis Himself says

    It appears that bjtunwarm was just a drive-by.

    Note I didn’t call hir a whiner, a misogynist, a MRA, or even a troll. That’s because I’m trying not to indulge in anti-troll tribalism.

    </snark>

  233. Rey Fox says

    Wait. So I not only have to be on the lookout for the mythological nymphomaniac, but the contrary mythological nymphomaniac?

  235. Brownian says

    I think your troll fanfic should be expanded upon and published. You can call it 50 Shades of Derp.

    Chapter 12 (which would have been Chapter 9 except that the garnisheeing of manly property, including book chapters, is illegal in the right and just universe the O’Innocents live in):

    Goldenjizz Swordcock O’Innocent, having produced so many bulldozers that the plant closed down early and the Prime President of the Galaxy stopped by to personally congratulate him for single-handedly raising the sperm count of all males of all species, everywhere, goes fishing with his father, Gigantoballs Neverwearspink O’Innocent.

    “Dad?”
    “Yes, son” his dad replied, while punching a California Condor into sucking it the fuck up and getting its goddamned species off the endangered list
    “Sometimes, when I’m playing football with my many sons, they accidentally kick the ball through the window of the tower where I keep my daughters so they don’t turn into sluts. Does that mean they’re gay?”
    “That depends. Did their father call a la-dee-da glazier to fix the window, or did he man up and form a new window out of the congealed sweat he generated while ranching? Because one of those answers means the problem is you” as he opened up his metal lunchbox to take a bite out of his shark and granite sandwich
    “I see your point” Goldenjizz replied, the testosterone he expelled with his breath reaching all the way to Saturn, causing it to lose the rings, get a buzzcut, and join the ninja marines
    “Don’t backtalk me boy” Gigantoballs said, and smacked him across the mouth.A single drop of blood fell on the ground and became the biggest source of oil ever, and all the sissy Arab Princes had to get real jobs.
    Just then a woman came by and thanked them for freeing her from the difficult choice of having to vote.

  236. Louis says

    Oh you hideous beast you’ve come all over my umbrella.

    And in no thread has that Gielgudian irrelevance ever been more apropos.

    Louis

  237. ChasCPeterson says

    Please don’t call me “hon” unless you’re refilling my coffee cup at the time. Thanks.

  238. Brownian says

    It appears that bjtunwarm was just a drive-by.

    Pity. I was hoping he could help me edit my book. I’m not sure if I’m getting the right mix of missed punctuation and incorrectly spelled words, and someone might think I’m gay if I’m too literate.

  239. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    @Brownian

    You. Are. Amazing. I’m speechless, if noiselessly choking on all the laughs that tried to exit my windpipe at the same time counts as speechlessness.

  240. says

    It’s nice you picked up on the fact I was gently mocking you through the diminutive of “honey”. So you’re fairly aware of context and subtlety. There is then still hope that you might take your head out of your ass in time for christmas.

    You never know, I may one day serve you coffee. It is certainly not outside the realm of possibility given my status in this world.

  241. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Brownian, that is some of the funniest shit you’ve ever posted, and considering your record that’s saying something.

  243. ChasCPeterson says

    you’re fairly aware of context and subtlety. There is then still hope that you might take your head out of your ass in time for christmas.

    What? Sorry, but how exactly is my head in my ass this time?

    Are you suggesting that there is context or subtlety I missed in Emrysmyrddin’s hilarious quip?
    Because if there was any, I did in fact miss it. Which is precisely, see, the reason I asked explicitly for the context.
    You see, if someone around here had actually been using the adjective ‘tribal’ to mean something like ‘you disagree with me’, then it would have been funny, in a like Seinfeldian ‘that’s funny ’cause it’s so true’ kind of way. But when asked, our humorous jester was unable or unwilling to point to even a single case where anybody had actually employed such a usage. So if the mocking jape had no real referent, how or why is it funny?
    I really don’t get it. Can you offer any head-extraction assistance?
    Or do you not know what or whom you’re talking about? (my working hypothesis)

  244. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    “Oh, your manly manskills just got me pregnant. But don’t worry; I’ll take care of the baby all by myself, until it’s old enough to for you to teach it football. Do you want a beer?”

    I think this is my favorite part.

  245. Emrysmyrddin says

    Jesus fuck, Chas, I’m on GMT and it’s way past my bedtime; I suggest you get a life, stop cackling over your Precious, and do whatever it is people do when they’re not on Pharyngula, yanno, like sleep and stuff, and not obsess about a throwaway comment equipped with a ‘usually’ qualifier intended to make people (just me, if that makes you happier, just little old me) LAUGH.

  247. Brownian says

    One more teaser chapter (Trigger warning for emetophobic readers):

    Goldenjizz Swordcock O’Innocent’s wife, Whatzername, spoke out of turn at dinner. Plus, the meatloaf was dry. So he put on his most obnoxious peacocking hat, and hit up a singles bar, because what, he’s gotta file an affidavit with you every time he wants a fucking minute to himself to think? Fuck that noise

    While there, a woman made eye contact with him, and knowing that he had three seconds to distinguish himself from the Average Frustrated Chumps, he sauntered over to her and ordered a drink from the bartender, but not before mentioning how much he respected her decision to wear high heels with cankles like that.

    Suddenly, as he waved around the fifty he was about to drop in the tip jar so even the bartender would know what a big deal he was, a Nice Guy from the planet Cantcatchabreak walked up to the woman, bathing them all in an eerie blue light emanating from his swollen balls.

    “P-p-p-p-p-pardon me, but I was just taking my copy of the Beauty Myth for a long walk and conversation, and I thought I might be someone you’d like to phone, crying, after someone like Goldenjizz here tires of your manipulative bullshit. I promise I won’t ever tell you I actually just want to fuck you, unless we’re both really, really drunk, and even then we won’t have sex anyway.”

    Disgusted, the woman started to vomit on the Nice Guy’s shoes, and he began to lap it up, because there’s only two kinds of men in the world, and that’s what the Nice Guy kind does.

    Goldenjizz, having never seen an actual Nice Guy before, found himself both fascinated and repelled. Is that what a chronic virgin looked like? he thought, as he considered the 9,823 women he fucked on the way from the parking lot. The fifty slipped from his grasp.

    Waiting for just such an opportunity, the woman droped a dollar into the tip jar, instead, technically paying for part of Goldenjizz’ drink! A wily feminist ploy to weaken him!

    Like Sampson, except not such a goddamn chump for a piece of tail, Goldenjizz slumped to the floor, the golden semen in his vas deferens tarnishing in contact with feminine duplicity.

    “Oh, I see you’re busy with a better man than I. I’ll just go home and pine.” said the Nice Guy, and he left, only stopping on the way to join a co-ed kickball league where they don’t even bother to keep score.

    Gloating, the woman grew talons, and a greedy flame seemed to lick her slitted pupils. If only he’d thought to look at her ankles before negging on them he might have seen her harpy spurs, but his one weakness was his commitment to eye on the prize!

    “Yes, it is I, Queen Harpy of Castrulon 5. You thought you’d killed us all with your swordcock, Goldenjizz, but you didn’t kill me. You see, while you were slaying my sisters, I was at a pawn shop, hocking the jewelry my rich, stupid, hard-working doctor ex-husband bought me while I stayed at home eating bon-bons!

    “And now, it is my turn, and there is nobody here to help you because everyone in the universe condones female-on-male violence!”

    Cliffhanger!

  250. Louis says

    Ing,

    Those orders were rescinded by order of Chas: Internet Police. You must now welcome him with open arms as all Pharyngula is his to determine.

    Oh sorry, I’ve said too much.

    Louis

  251. opposablethumbs says

    They felt that she was denigrating het romance by making that observation and disliked having their erotica deconstructed. “We like it because it’s hot” was the thrust (no pun intended) of their response.

    Caerie, thanks for the answer (way back at #95, had to be away from computer and I missed seeing it earlier). Well huh. I think the problems raised by power imbalance and gender roles make writing good het erotica difficult (not that any kind of good writing is easy, of course). Raising that issue is not at all to denigrate het romance; on the contrary it acknowledges problems that only a very good writer could deal with successfuly imo. I don’t read het romance myself, partly because of those inequalities. And deconstructing erotica, just like anything else, doesn’t make it any less hot I think – in fact I find it fascinating. I might not do it right at the very exact selfsame moment I was reading for hotness, mind you, but totally while discussing with like-minded readers afterwards! (also @ Emrysmyrddin # 182 and Esteleth #188 :-) – there’s a hell of a lot to discuss re the tendency of some writers to “feminise”/infantilise/weaken one half of a couple. Fuck that noise.)

    Oh, and Esteleth your friend definitely has a point :-D

    @peggin #189

    Unfortunately, there’s an awful lot of slash fanfic out there where the characters are wildly out of character and the writer has one of the guys doing the whole fluttering eyes thing and the other guy doing the whole manly man rescuer white knight thing. I don’t get the point. If I wanted that, I could just go pick up a mainstream het romance novel. If you want to write a story about two guys, write a story about two guys!

    Emrysmyrddin

    Good slash doesn’t have any of that bottom effeminate/top manly-manly-manman stuff.

    (I think I agree w Esteleth as well, inasmuch as it’s a problem when it’s presented as some kind of Automatic Law of Nature regardless of the characterisation in the original work – usually by changing an originally very strongly “masculine” character beyond all recognition (because he’s the smaller of the two by half an inch … yeah right)
    Caerie said it better:

    it’s when this turns into some sort of coded role that it becomes a problem.

    Damn, I was out and I missed all this stuff. I should never leave my computer again …

    On the other hand I also missed bjtunwarm’s little wankfest, so, a win there at least.

    Right, off out again.

    Good night all.

  252. dogeared, spotted and foxed says

    Brownian, upon reading your fanfic, my haircut grew-out 7 inches while simultaneously all body hair (except a tidy Brazilian) evaporated. I canceled my 47th abortion to go shoe shopping, ate 3 yogurts, subscribed to Cosmo, baked bread for a tasty sandwich (with mustard not sissy mayo) and my cats morphed into a golden retriever and a German Shepard in a yard to a home which is owned by my husband (Having my own bank account is like numbers, ewwww!)

    I’ve never felt so fulfilled!

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ve got to go post my bra color on Facebook because boobies!

  253. Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain says

    Brownian!

    What have you done?!

    I read that fic and was so overcome by desire for peen that I seduced the mailman!

    And my Sapphic streak had been doing so well!

    *weeps*

  255. 'Tis Himself says

    I read that fic and was so overcome by desire for peen that I seduced the mailman!

    No wonder the mail was late getting delivered. Some people have no consideration for those who live further along the mail route.

  256. karlvonmox says

    Honestly, go read karlvonmarx’s comments in the thread I linked to above.

    Tell me if I’m wrong to characterise his entire argument as “Yeah, yeah, yeah, equality and all that shit—when do we get to the part about me getting my fuck on?”

    LOL. When I get mentioned in the next feminism thread and made into the next Pharyngula pariah by the hysterical morons here, I can only take it as a badge of honor. Penetrating Brownian’s consciousness enough for him to be continually pissed off means I’ve done my job here.

    fyi – I left a happy hour event today with two numbers, one I know from experience is almost certainly interested. umad?

  257. Tethys says

    Oh look, Karlvonwunderschwanz has returned to prove beyond all doubt that he is a despicable misogynistic troll.

  258. julian says

    umad?

    A little worried about your prospective dates (you sound like a creep) but not really mad.

    Hoping you’ll leave and not come back, that’s for sure.

  260. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Penetrating Brownian’s consciousness enough for him to be continually pissed off means I’ve done my job here.

    Even the sexist shitsacks find teh ghey seks with Brownian irresistible. O.o

  261. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    fyi – I left a happy hour event today with two numbers

    Were they separated by a hyphen on a sign you were holding up for the camera?

  262. says

    LOL. When I get mentioned in the next feminism thread and made into the next Pharyngula pariah by the hysterical morons here, I can only take it as a badge of honor.

    Let me know if you need any help pinning that fucker on, okay?

  263. otrame says

    @189
    Some slash slops the whole gender roles crap on top, but certainly not all.

    And of course there has to be a little out-of-character, because, with the exception of Torchwood, the favorite ships are not gay in the original story.

    Sturgeon’s Law is in full force, and there is no question that you have to wade through a bunch of crap to get to the jewels. But the jewels are there. Most of the really good fiction I’ve read in the past couple of years was fan fiction. And you don’t have to pay anything but compliments. Wading through the dross is easy. Use your back button.

    And yes, I suspect that at least part of the reason I enjoy slash so much is that two beautiful men are better than one.

  264. FossilFishy says

    fyi – I left a happy hour event today with two numbers, one I know from experience is almost certainly interested. umad?

    Oh, a swing and a miss! I love it when idiots are so willing to display their stupidity.

  265. Brownian says

    Penetrating Brownian’s consciousness enough for him to be continually pissed off means I’ve done my job here.

    I’m responding to this while on the Live Google Hangout thing just to show that, unlike the fuckbrain here, I can think about more than one thing at a time.

    As for umad, well, anyone who knows me at all knows I’m kind of mad as a hobby.

    You want a real challenge to prove you’re a powerful man, karl?
    Convince me that you’re worth pissing on if you were on fire.

  266. cicely says

    It’s a miracle! Merely reading about the Magnificent Goldenjizz not only completely reversed my Hysterectomy With All The Trimmings™, but left me heavy with child, as well!

    (It is, needless to say, a masculine child.)
    –

  267. What a Maroon, Applied Linguist of Slight Foreboding says

    (It is, needless to say, a masculine child.)

    I hope it’s not a girl, then. Because you know the second worse thing in the world is a masculine girl.

  268. otrame says

    You left with two numbers.

    Oh, sweet Jesus-who-may-never-have-existed, PLEASE tell me he wasn’t referring to two human beings.

    …………………

    The worst part is he sounds like he thinks anyone here would be impressed, even if we believed a word he said. Fucking loser.

    ____________

    BTW

    Where is Brownian going to put that new knitted Internet? He already had so many.

    Also BTW, would whoever is holding up the Ghey Secks With Brownian line please move along. You’ve had your turn. Get to the end of the line.

  269. Mattir says

    I posted this in TET, but given the tone of this thread, I think it would be better included here. (The lesbian reference is to that Jezebel list of early 20th century ways to identify a lesbian.)

    As holder of the number one slot in the Brownian Ghey Secks Line™**, I invite all my fellow lesbians to come (as it were) to a Lesbian Secks and Intelligent Conversation gathering at my spot in the line. I’m hoping this will allow all the lesbians to cut in front of the Louis Groop.

    **It is totally not my fault that the line is not moving. Brownian has not taken a single Ghey Secks Applicant yet. He seems to lack some tribal loyalty to all the people in line. Or something.

  270. Brownian says

    You left with two numbers.

    I think that’s another totally unbelievable fantasy.

  272. 'Tis Himself says

    I think that’s another totally unbelievable fantasy.

    My thought as well.

  273. cicely says

    I hope it’s not a girl, then. Because you know the second worse thing in the world is a masculine girl.

    Unfortunately, it is impossible to determine this any sooner than hir Boffo Debut, owing to the way the imagery is persistently (pesteringly?) fucked up by all the free-floating willies (excuse me; pee pees), which seem to have formed spontaneously and without recourse to any conventional form of reproduction. I can only assume that the unused Y-carrying jizzlets bullied the unused X-carrying jizzlets into oblivion, and then expressed themselves to the fullest.
    –

  274. Brownian says

    There’s a reason PUAs love the term ‘Alpha male’. If they didn’t tell us that’s what they are, we’d never know it.

  276. says

    Wait, karlvonmox, you know from experience that she’s interested? Then why didn’t you have her number before? What kind of “experience” are you talking about, exactly?

  278. thomasvos says

    I know I’ll be hunted with pitchforks for pointing it out, but that’s exactly what happened during “elevatorgate.” That’s all I’m going to say about that.

  279. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    fyi – I left a happy hour event today with two numbers, one I know from experience is almost certainly interested. umad?

    I just love internet Don Juan

    It’s like internet tough guy, but lamer.

  282. Brownian says

    I know I’ll be hunted with pitchforks for pointing it out

    Oh, how much easier life would be if such occurrences actually happened.

    but that’s exactly what happened during “elevatorgate.”

    Alone, in a empty elevator at 4 AM.

    Context matters. D’uh.

  283. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    I know I’ll be hunted with pitchforks for pointing it out, but that’s exactly what happened during “elevatorgate.” That’s all I’m going to say about that.

    Of course, typing out a fictional story and being secluded in 10 by 10 closed in space at 4 in the morning with an intoxicated stranger is exactly the same.

  284. julian says

    that’s exactly what happened during “elevatorgate.”

    Kinda.

    You’re missing the part where Rebecca had said she didn’t like those kinds of propositions and that she wanted to go to bed. From my reading what makes it a feminist fantasy is that the woman’s wishes were respected and the man didn’t pester her for sex after she indicated disinterest.

    Then again the scenario in the strip is very vague so, who knows. Maybe the woman in the story was also a tired speaker having announced she wished to call it a night being stopped in an elevator by someone she doesn’t know.

  285. says

    For example a friend of mine who went to Japan was informed that if someone says “maybe” to a invitation or request, they probably mean “no”

    Your friend is correct. In fact, Japanese doesn’t even have words that correspond directly to “yes” and “no”. Instead that have “hai” which means “that’s correct”, and rarely used as we use yes, and “iee” which means no, but is considered rude on its own, and is almost always followed by some softening words.

    Actually, it can be more of a mess than that. A number of business deals have been known to fail because, in certain contexts, “hai”, means, “I am listening”, and actually indicates not assent, but rather a statement of, “But I need more to be convinced.” Problem sometimes is that, while English is presumed to include clear concepts of yes and no, in practice, in some circumstances, it *is* possible to present an alternative suggesting, or renegotiate. For some idiots, this is likely to be assumed to be true, regardless of context.

  286. julian says

    @Rev Dumb Chimp

    Was EG drunk? I don’t remember her ever mentioning that. I don’t doubt she may have been a bit buzzed (what with drinking all night) but that’s the first I’ve heard of EG being intoxicated.

  287. Brownian says

    You’re missing the part where Rebecca had said she didn’t like those kinds of propositions and that she wanted to go to bed. From my reading what makes it a feminist fantasy is that the woman’s wishes were respected and the man didn’t pester her for sex after she indicated disinterest.

    So, you’re saying she said no and he didn’t respect her wishes and instead cornered her in an enclosed space by herself at a time of the day when there are few people around?

    So, not like elevatorgate at all, then.

  288. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Was EG drunk? I don’t remember her ever mentioning that. I don’t doubt she may have been a bit buzzed (what with drinking all night) but that’s the first I’ve heard of EG being intoxicated.

    Humm. Ok I might be wrong on that. I might have just assumed 4 Am after a big get together… etc… Doesn’t change the point though.

  289. says

    Damn it, Brownian, I had to put a sign up outside my apartment which says “Desperate for douchebag peen.”

    How could you and Goldenjizz do this to me?

  290. smhll says

    Considering we quite recently did several hundred posts on the idiotic implied suggestion that women should lock their vaginas (and anuses and mouths) in the trunks of their cars whenever they go out at night to a place were crime has ever been committed, I truly wish that super stupid arguments could be met with a thunderous silence. (This goes double for people who make stupid arguments about what someone else meant.)

    Sadly, it’s hard to get silence to make a really impressive loud noise, and nigh impossible to get any group larger than 8 people to be silent about anything. Enjoy the cacaphony. Elevate the content. Let the tone fall where it may.

  291. FossilFishy says

    I truly wish that super stupid arguments could be met with a thunderous silence

    Ah yes, because silence works *so* well at combating teh stupid. Gotchya.

    *I hope I’m not spoiling a meta-joke by responding to shmll’s stupidity.

  292. amblebury says

    I left a happy hour event today with two numbers

    This statement provides introvertable evidence that it’s the fucking that matters to Karl, not the person who comes attached to the orifice.

  293. chigau (違う) says

    I left a happy hour event today with two numbers

    How many did you ask for?

  295. rowanvt says

    @ Chigau, 293-

    Now now, you might hurt the pee-pee’s fee-fees by mentioning how many times it *failed*.

  296. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Karlvonmox: the world’s best reminder not to ever give anyone my number. Ever.
    *shudder* Ugh.

  297. vaiyt says

    The interested may look up Have I Mentioned I Am Heterosexual Today on TV Tropes, and note the connection.

  298. Louis says

    Mattir,

    1) I am male.

    2) I am on the internet.

    Surely hand-peepee is the majority activity. After all, I have several right wing christians who tell me that’s what we evil male internet atheists do on the web.

    It’s a bit early for me right now though. I haven’t even had coffee.

    Louis

  299. Louis says

    Karlvonmox,

    You got two numbers? Well done you. I wish the women involved the very best of luck.

    Louis

    P.S. I’m not mad, I like to see people get on in life. It’s nice to be nice. But then again, it’s nice to treat women as people and not as Rubik’s Cube Magic Locks for their vaginas. But you’ll learn that one day I hope.

  300. Louis says

    And Jafafa Hots,

    Your comments wins at least 3 internets in my view. Please collect them from the front desk where you will also receive a MASSIVE CHEQUE and a kiss from {Insert Suitable Celebrity, probably Brownian, here}.

    Louis

  301. says

    This statement provides introvertable evidence that it’s the fucking that matters to Karl, not the person who comes attached to the orifice.

    Well, no, he didn’t get any women. He got 2 strings of numbers that may or may not correspond to their telephone numbers… and he only managed this through their abuse of alcohol.

    Not that I want to spoil Karl’s fun or anything.

    @271 – chas – Oh that. Yeah it’s funny cos it’s true. Sorry, but the threads get confusing sometimes.

  302. Louis says

    Ricardodivali,

    There are those phone services that exist that are fake numbers for women to hand out aren’t there?

    I think they are an answering service with a kind message of refusal on them. I saw them advertised once I think.

    Louis

  303. Kriss says

    The End.

    Yes, the end of all marriages and partnerships before they even start, including mine.

  305. says

    Yes, the end of all marriages and partnerships before they even start, including mine.

    Start of my relationship:
    “Also, um, I’ve kind of been crushing on you a bunch. Sorry if you don’t want that kind of attention…”
    “Oh thank god, I’ve been crushing on you too! I was kind of worried too!”
    *Begin animated, enthusiastic convos, relationship*

    So, horse shit, dude defending shitty people.

  306. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    The End.

    Yes, the end of all marriages and partnerships before they even start, including mine.

    Yeah, if all marriages and partnerships are being started by men not respecting women and not taking no as an answer then somethings wrong.

    It’s not hard to fuck off when someone isn’t interested and tells you no.

  308. Kriss says

    John, nice to hear I’m wrong, only why do I have the feeling that I’m not, especially taking into account my own experience. Happily married after twice not taking seriously a ‘no’ to a very friendly lunch invitation (by mail). I could also have been ending on the company’s perstering list.

    Ruteekatreya would you care to kick your brain into gear before you write. I am not defending shitty people. My little contribution here just wants to show the real problem: It’s not as easy as black or white. If all men took each and every ‘no’ of all women as an answer the world would not neccessarily be a better one.

    Ruteekatreya, take this ‘no’ as a hint that I do not want your comments to me any more. How does that sound to you ?

  309. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Ruteekatreya, take this ‘no’ as a hint that I do not want your comments to me any more. How does that sound to you ?

    Since your posts are public and fair game for anybody to respond to, not very cogent. Unless you install killfile.

  310. John Morales says

    Kriss, you’re still wrong; that you can be married after twice not taking seriously a ‘no’ to a very friendly lunch invitation does not even entail that you would not be married otherwise, much less the end of all marriages and partnerships.

  311. says

    I am not defending shitty people.

    Yes, you are. You are in fact directly providing cover for people who want to continue to pester women not seeking a dude’s company.

    My little contribution here

    Is that what you call a factually wrong statement that doesn’t coincide with reality?

    It’s not as easy as black or white.

    Yes, it is, actually.

    If all men took each and every ‘no’ of all women as an answer the world would not neccessarily be a better one.

    Appeal to consequences.
    That notwithstanding that the world would by default be a better place if people better respected autonomy, both bodily and socially. Not only are you prioritizing the formation of relationships over the happiness of those involved, but you’re begging the question when you say “HOW CAN YOU DEAL WITH THIS INFERIOR WORLD WHEREIN PEOPLE CAN’T FORM RELATIONSHIPS”. They can, even while respecting autonomy.

    Ruteekatreya, take this ‘no’ as a hint that I do not want your comments to me any more. How does that sound to you ?

    Your annoyance at facts does not make them comparable to PUA jackassery.

  312. kassad says

    LOL. When I get mentioned in the next feminism thread and made into the next Pharyngula pariah by the hysterical morons here, I can only take it as a badge of honor. Penetrating Brownian’s consciousness enough for him to be continually pissed off means I’ve done my job here.

    fyi – I left a happy hour event today with two numbers, one I know from experience is almost certainly interested. umad?

    Woah… Karl, you’re a sad, sad little man aren’t you?

  313. says

    Happily married after twice not taking seriously a ‘no’ to a very friendly lunch invitation (by mail). I could also have been ending on the company’s perstering list.

    Y’know, as a bisexual, I’ve seen this from multiple sides. I’ve pined after people all over the gender spectrum and had people from all over the gender spectrum pine after me.

    I have never not taken “no” for an answer and yet I’ve managed to have relationships and am now in a serious one heading for marriage once we can jump through the right legal hoops. I have had both women and men refuse to take my “no” seriously. In one case, a lady friend continues to this day to whine about how mean I am for having repeatedly and none-too-sweetly turned her down after she decided to reveal her feelings (repeatedly) once I was in a committed relationship. While male privilege and gender roles probably make the pushy guy more common than the pushy girl, this really isn’t a men vs. women issue. It’s a matter of respecting someone’s desires.

    Are there people who might enjoy not having their “no” taken for an answer? Sure. There are also people who enjoy erotic punches to the face. Anyone tempted to ignore someone’s “no” should heed the same rules the erotic face punchers and punchees follow. If someone hasn’t clearly communicated their desire to take part, leave them alone.

    If there is no clear communication that says “yes, yes, please ignore me when I tell you to GTFA”, then it’s obnoxious at best to persist. Might it sometimes work out? Sure, and I suppose if the erotic face punchers just kept punching enough faces they’d eventually find someone with a compatible kink. There’d be a hell of a lot of unwilling punchees until they got there, though.

  314. Amphiox says

    Yes, the end of all marriages and partnerships before they even start, including mine.

    All?

    Exactly what imaginary universe are you referring to?

  315. opposablethumbs says

    I left a happy hour event today with two numbers

    Just five more and you’ll be able to call her!

    I know you already have an three internets, Jafafa Hots, but I thought maybe you could use these chocolate-lavender-grog ribbons to tie round them.
    .
    And tomasvos and kriss are competing to see who can get the point to sail furthest above their heads! It’s breathtaking! How low can they go? It’s nailbiting … oh, wait. It isn’t.

  316. Amphiox says

    fyi – I left a happy hour event today with two numbers, one I know from experience is almost certainly interested. umad?

    Supporting a woman’s right to say no also means supporting a woman’s right to say yes, even to a creep like karlie.

    (Incidentally, happy hour events are one of those situations which are society has set aside as an appropriate venue for giving and receiving propositions, one of those events where individuals give implied consent to the possibility of being propositioned by the act of choosing to be present. Quite different from, say the floor of a convention hall.)

  317. Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle says

    I left a happy hour event today with two numbers

    LOL, why would we be mad at such an obvious lie? If you had actually gotten two phone numbers, and they were actually valid, your first move wouldn’t have been to come to Pharyngula to tell complete strangers about it.

    nice try, and evertyhing, but seriously. Grow up.

  318. says

    Gregory Greenwood:

    Similarly, a phrase such as ‘cunt’ – given the history of the word itself and our society’s track record of sexually objectifying women, treating them as chattel, and the tropes that devalue womanhood as opposed to manhood, and also define each in toxic opposition to the other (in no small measure homophobia was born out of a hostility toward men who didn’t perform masculinity in an ‘acceptable’ fashion because they acted in a way that was considered to close to the norms of behaviour associated with historically devalued womanhood) – is a very different proposition from a phrase such as ‘pee pee’, that holds no such history.

    QFT.

    And a word such as “dick,” for that matter. I obey the blanket ban on gendered slurs here only because everyone else seems to agree with it. I find the banning of non-oppressive terms like “dickhead” or “scrote” an unfortunate capitulation to whiny-ass menz who refuse to understand context, and I use those terms freely in other places.

    Emrysmyrddin:

    In other news, Jonathan Swift really liked him some Poor Irish Baby Stew…

    Well, who doesn’t? Although my tastes are more (ahem) catholic, and my discriminating palate does not discriminate on the basis of ethnicity or socioeconomic status.

    Baal:

    tribal rah-rah

    Good thing I’d already stopped taking you seriously.

    I take some pains to not look like a MRA/Troll…

    Aw, diddums. Does oo wanna cookie-ookie?

    It’s silencing a segment that you all clearly don’t value that is not MRA or equivalent.

    Indeed. Because the MRA or equivalent is, believe it or not, not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the “ordinary nice men” who provide cover to the MRA or equivalent because the uppity wimminz offend their fee-fees and won’t regard them as “allies” unconditionally.

    tl;dr: Fuck off, you whiny-ass titty baby. And, Kassad, you shouldn’t have apologized to that wanker.

    Josh:

    I’m sick of the bullshit co-optation of the term “bullying” by people who aren’t being fagbashed, sexually harassed, raped, or worse.

    QFFT. And yes as well to your #140 about Noonewithbrains.

    Peggin, your comment implies that femme-presenting men aren’t really “guys.” That’s…. really not on.

    Azkyroth, yes, everybody here is human and therefore, from time to time, some of us will say something toxic out of anger. You, on the other hand, have a history of saying ignorant-ass shit on a regular basis. Here’s a current example. Then you whinge about how you’ve been here for seven yeeeaaarrrrrrzzz and why won’t anybody give you a break?! So let’s just say I don’t buy into your concern about how “toxic” the comments can collectively get.

    Bjtunwarm, yeah, it’s obviously your appearance that prevents women from gettin’ jiggy with you. It’s not like your personality repels them at 100 feet or anything.

    Brownian, please post 50 Shades of Derp to every fanfiction site in existence. It is a crime against taste that it should be less well known than the (cough) original.

    Karl von Pox:

    Penetrating Brownian’s consciousness

    That phrase must have taken a while to type out, with only one hand.

    Also, there’s nothing sadder than a grown-ass man announcing to a threadful of people who don’t give a shit that he’s gonna get laid. The unverifiability of this claim is just the starting point.

    Finally, you might want to check to see if either of those numbers is actually that of a rejection hotline.

    Thomasvos, please see Josh’s comment about “bullying.”

    Kriss, perhaps we should work toward a culture in which women feel able 100% of the time to not only say “no” when they mean no but “yes” when they mean “yes.” I mean, if that wouldn’t make your pee-pee shrink by destroying your “Man the Pursuer” self-image. Pee-pee shrinkage is, of course, much more important than the safety of all women collectively.

  320. Brownian says

    I have never not taken “no” for an answer and yet I’ve managed to have relationships and am now in a serious one heading for marriage once we can jump through the right legal hoops.

    Moi aussi.

  322. kassad says

    And, Kassad, you shouldn’t have apologized to that wanker.

    I’m sorry :)

    Because the MRA or equivalent is, believe it or not, not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the “ordinary nice men” who provide cover to the MRA or equivalent because the uppity wimminz offend their fee-fees and won’t regard them as “allies” unconditionally.

    That.

    And if you really want to to talk about men problems, how about talking about the men that are considered “weirdos” (or “wuss”, etc) even by their friends if they make a comment about the fact that the “guy talk” they’re having (like Karl and his phone number bragging) is kind of an asshole behaviour.
    I mean if you really have to talk about men problems in a sexism discussion (and you really don’t), “women call me pee-pee!” would not exactly be my first pick.

  323. Brownian says

    No it’s not the fucking at all. It’s the bragging.

    Yup.

    And if you really want to to talk about men problems, how about talking about the men that are considered “weirdos” (or “wuss”, etc) even by their friends if they make a comment about the fact that the “guy talk” they’re having (like Karl and his phone number bragging) is kind of an asshole behaviour.

    Again, maybe I live in a relatively liberal social bubble, but the people I know don’t really engage in that sort of “guy talk” much at all. It’s just not interesting. We’re not 17.

  324. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    The End.

    Yes, the end of all marriages and partnerships before they even start, including mine.

    If your interactions with women have all consisted of being told “no,” and you ignoring it and pressuring them for sex, you’ve never had a “partnership.”

  325. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Appeal to consequences.

    An appeal to consequences isn’t necessarily fallacious in the context of an argument over what people SHOULD do. On the other hand, his really, really, really doesn’t fucking follow.

  326. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Azkyroth, yes, everybody here is human and therefore, from time to time, some of us will say something toxic out of anger. You, on the other hand, have a history of saying ignorant-ass shit on a regular basis. Here’s a current example. Then you whinge about how you’ve been here for seven yeeeaaarrrrrrzzz and why won’t anybody give you a break?! So let’s just say I don’t buy into your concern about how “toxic” the comments can collectively get.

    In reference to your comment: I expressed curiosity about a subject on which I acknowledged a personal lack of information. There was no judgment attached or implied. What is WRONG with you?

  327. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Anyway, I don’t care if you share or give credit to my frustrations. You’ve already demonstrated that you are unpleasable, feel ENTITLED to control absolutely every discussion that catches your interest at any cost, and exhibit absolutely no evidence that social justice is anything to you other than a convenient excuse to insult people, like about two others of the numerous people who have called my attention to actual mistakes in my thinking expressed in things I’ve actually said. I’m interested in engaging with the rest.

    Thank you for illustrating my point about spitefulness and misrepresentation, though.

  328. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    (I should rephrase: “along with two others, in contrast to the numerous people who have called my attention to actual mistakes in my thinking expressed in things I’ve actually said.”)

  329. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    exhibit absolutely no evidence that social justice is anything to you other than a convenient excuse to insult people

    You need to stop saying this about people who are actually affected by the social justice issues under discussion, Azkyroth.

  330. Gen, Uppity Ingrate. says

    Azkyroth, you need to understand that you are not entitled to having people explain things to you and school you and hold your hand through exactly *why* what you said was wrong, especially in a social justice context where the concepts are fucking basic that a quick google can fix. If someone DOES have the patience to do that, that is a bonus, not something you’re entitled to.

    Also seconding what Cipher said. And HappiestSadist, on the thread Daisy linked.

    ***

    Brownian, that was hilarious. Thanks.

  331. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    Ms. Daisy Cutter:

    Josh:

    I’m sick of the bullshit co-optation of the term “bullying” by people who aren’t being fagbashed, sexually harassed, raped, or worse.

    QFFT. And yes as well to your #140 about Noonewithbrains.

    I expressed a very similar sentiment previously regarding cooption of the word “abuse” and your response was very different.
    Me:

    If I’m not mistaken, all claims of abuse are empirically verifiable*. From what I see, claiming that these incidences are abuse impoverishes the meaning of that word. But maybe I’m wrong. If we are going to insist on discussing these events as abuse, the least we could do is to come to some agreement as to what constitutes abuse on a forum like this one, where rancor is transacted as a matter of course.

    You:

    So, when Pteryxx said earlier that they find TET triggering because SGBM behaves like an abuser, I guess they were “impoverishing the meaning of the word”?
    Also, did you want to go the DJ Grothe route and ask Pteryxx for medical paperwork or something?

    Is the distinction that you see between the words “bullying” and “abuse” or is between Josh and me?

  332. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Azkyroth, you need to understand that you are not entitled to having people explain things to you and school you and hold your hand through exactly *why* what you said was wrong,

    Why? It’s a subset of a social system that confuses the living shit out of people with disabilities like mine when we’re engaging in good faith and you people helped make it. A reasonable amount of explaining doesn’t seem burdensome. I’ll even grant that misinterpreting genuine questions as yet-another-bad-faith-attempt is understandable (ignoring clarifications regarding, not so much).

    especially in a social justice context where the concepts are fucking basic that a quick google can fix.

    Now that’s not intrinsically unreasonable, but what should I be googling here?

  333. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    You need to stop saying this about people who are actually affected by the social justice issues under discussion, Azkyroth.

    Are you telling me I should ignore – not apply skepticism and an awareness of privilege to, but straight up ignore – my own perceptions regarding people’s priorities because of which groups they belong to?

  334. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Are you telling me I should ignore – not apply skepticism and an awareness of privilege to, but straight up ignore – my own perceptions regarding people’s priorities because of which groups they belong to?

    If that’s what it takes to get you to stop telling people that they only care about issues that affect their own lives because it gives them an excuse to insult people, then sure.

  335. Brownian says

    Why? It’s a subset of a social system that confuses the living shit out of people with disabilities like mine when we’re engaging in good faith and you people helped make it. A reasonable amount of explaining doesn’t seem burdensome.

    Can I touch your hair?

    Now that’s not intrinsically unreasonable, but what should I be googling here?

    top bottom

    First result.

  336. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Brownian, I don’t understand the point of the first link. I’m surprised the second is so straightforward.

  337. says

    What is WRONG with you?

    Heteros asking stupid-ass questions, it would seem.

    and exhibit absolutely no evidence that social justice is anything to you other than a convenient excuse to insult people,

    Fuck off.

    Are you telling me I should ignore – not apply skepticism and an awareness of privilege to, but straight up ignore – my own perceptions regarding people’s priorities because of which groups they belong to?

    Yes. Your perceptions are skewed, your awareness sucks. Fuck off, hetero.

    you people

    You are a thundering asshole.

    Now that’s not intrinsically unreasonable, but what should I be googling here?

    Type your inane question into google. It’s surprisingly good.

  338. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Actually, the result I was referred to didn’t answer my question, but I’m dropping that question. I’m not hetero. It’s disappointing to me that finding the courage to directly bring up my disability-related difficulties with social norms gets me sneered at per brownian’s link. Ablist bullshit like this is why I don’t usually mention them. By “you people” I mean “neurotypicals,” I apologize if that was unclear.

  339. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    It’s disappointing to me that finding the courage to directly bring up my disability-related difficulties with social norms gets me sneered at per brownian’s link.

    Please elaborate what about his links you considered to be sneering at people with disability-related difficulties with social norms.

    By “you people” I mean “neurotypicals,” I apologize if that was unclear.

    Do you have good reason to assume Gen is NT?

  340. Gen, Uppity Ingrate. says

    Azkyroth, the first article that Brownian linked to can be supplemented by (yet another) Google search using the term “can I touch your hair”. Optional: adding “black women”.

    Here are more on the topic:

    http://www.shakesville.com/2011/07/black-womens-hair-aint-public-property.html

    http://edition.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/07/25/touching.natural.black.hair/index.html?hpt=hp_bn8

    http://www.womanist-musings.com/2008/09/can-i-touch-your-hair-black-women-and.html

    In the same way that white women wanting to touch black women’s hair serves as a constant reminder to both black and white women that black women are a curiosity, out of the norm, The Other, insisting that gay people explain their sex lives to you when you can easily google it (or some other basic equivalent) can easily come across as “lol gays are so weird” even if you identify one of that group.

    In the same way that black women’s hair are not public property you’re entitled to oogle at and touch because it’s just SO WEIRD and unusual and you’ve honestly never encountered it and you’re really just DYING to know if it feels like “normal” hair, gay people’s sex lives also aren’t public property you are entitled to have access to.

  342. Gen, Uppity Ingrate. says

    Actually, please disregard my comment @341, it was way out of line. Completely. You can get MUCH worse non-NT than what I suffer from and in any case, most of my problems with functioning comes from mental health issues, not ASD issues and the two shouldn’t be conflated.

    So I unreservedly apologize and retract my statement.

  343. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    In the same way that black women’s hair are not public property you’re entitled to oogle at and touch because it’s just SO WEIRD and unusual and you’ve honestly never encountered it and you’re really just DYING to know if it feels like “normal” hair, gay people’s sex lives also aren’t public property you are entitled to have access to.

    Okay, that makes more sense than “you’re so stupid not knowing if touching stranger’s hair is okay is comparable.” I can sort of follow the reasoning here and I won’t make public information requests of that sort next time, although it doesn’t give me much insight into what other questions “aren’t okay.”

    Thanks for for explaining.

  344. Brownian says

    Sorry Azkyroth. I thought I followed up on this, but I guess I didn’t click submit. Gen explained what I was getting at perfectly though.

    As for insight, that’s tough, but if you can try to think about what kinds of questions might remind a marginalized person of their status as the Other, they’ve probably been asked them time and time again already.

  345. MissEla says

    Dammit, Brownian, I’ve been waiting for almost 100 posts! What happens to Goldenjizz!!!!! You just can’t do this to me!!!

    /weeps in girlish dismay

  346. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Sorry Azkyroth. I thought I followed up on this, but I guess I didn’t click submit. Gen explained what I was getting at perfectly though.

    Yeah, I get it now; I read the link text and jumped to conclusions. Sorry.

    As for insight, that’s tough, but if you can try to think about what kinds of questions might remind a marginalized person of their status as the Other, they’ve probably been asked them time and time again already.

    …that’s good advice, actually. I’m not sure why it didn’t suggest itself to me. Maybe it seems less obvious because “society’s default” is also “the Other” from my perspective? I’ll think on this.

  347. says

    Azky:

    You’ve already demonstrated that you are unpleasable, feel ENTITLED to control absolutely every discussion that catches your interest at any cost, and exhibit absolutely no evidence that social justice is anything to you other than a convenient excuse to insult people, like about two others of the numerous people who have called my attention to actual mistakes in my thinking expressed in things I’ve actually said. I’m interested in engaging with the rest.

    Cry harder, you whiny shitbasket. Nobody is obliged to be “nice” to you in those circumstances.

    And, ffs, stop invoking your ASD as an excuse and throwing around the word “ableist” as cover. I have a lot of online friends with ASDs, and none of them display your sense of entitlement to hand-holding and derailing.

    Oh, and as I’ve mentioned in other threads, I more likely than not have a mild ASD. Why don’t I have a diagnosis? Because there’s not much “intervention” that can be done at this point, and I don’t have health insurance.

    Antiochus, “bullying” does and can encompass more than social-justice issues. That said, in the context of the people whining about FTB being full of “bullies,” I agree with Josh — they’re trying to obscure the fact that they’re getting flak for being on the wrong side of such issues.

    Regarding abuse, there’s a difference between:

    a. People saying outright oppressive things who whine when called on them even once; and

    b. People who are saying things that aren’t considered by most to be oppressive, and who are called on them repeatedly by people who don’t seem to be able to change the subject and won’t admit that their opinions are not widely shared by the community, until the first party decides to leave the community because they feel unwelcome, and some third parties leave as well because they feel unsafe.

    And that’s all I’m going to say on this matter, as I don’t feel obliged to engage at length anyone who needs this explained to them, either because they don’t get it or because they pretend not to.

  349. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    And that’s all I’m going to say on this matter, as I don’t feel obliged to engage at length anyone who needs this explained to them, either because they don’t get it or because they pretend not to.

    Probably for the best, given your gift for explanation. You should probably stick to insulting people.

  350. ChasCPeterson says

    People who are saying things that aren’t considered by most to be oppressive, and who are called on them repeatedly by people who don’t seem to be able to change the subject and won’t admit that their opinions are not widely shared by the community, until the first party decides to leave the community because they feel unwelcome, and some third parties leave as well because they feel unsafe.

    yeah the part you’re leaving out here is that the first party was lying. Whether the vox populi thought it was ‘oppressive’ or not, it was untrue. Your implicit claim here seems to be that opinions that are “widely shared by the community” should prevail even if bullshit, and that community members feeling welcome and safe is more important than truth and intellectual honesty.
    This is another example of tribalism.

  352. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    and that community members feeling welcome and safe is more important than truth and intellectual honesty.

    Chas, I must protest, I think you’re misrepresenting Ms. Daisy Cutter here.

    A more accurate reading seems to be that “people who are liked by Ms. Daisy Cutter feeling welcome and safe is more important than truth and intellectual honesty.”

    This is not even as fair as tribalism, which at least the self-defense of “I am a member of the tribe and thus deserve a fair trial.” Her tiny sphere of consideration is not a tribe, but a clique, and as such can be arbitrarily redefined on a whim.

    +++++
    Ing, are you sure those orders still stand? I got the impression he changed his mind.

  353. life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐ says

    Er,

    This is not even as fair as tribalism, which at least allows the self-defense of …

  355. says

    I left a happy hour event today with two numbers

    Let me guess…

    “1) I wouldn’t date you if you were the last man on earth, and
    2) leave me the fuck alone or I’ll call the police!”

    Those numbers?

  356. The Rat King says

    A bit late to the party here, but…

    Are women not allowed to have masochistic fantasies?

  357. drbunsen, le savant fous says

    ruteekatreya, I’ve missed you.

    Lately I’ve missed you all. (Technical difficulties; abnormal service will be resumed as soon as possible) It’s refreshing to take a dip in the shark tank again.