Ashley Billasano was an 18 year old girl in Texas who claimed to be a victim of sexual abuse by her stepfather and another family member. She poured out her story on twitter and then committed suicide. It’s a tragic and horrible story, but of course there’s always someone around to make it worse, and that someone will use religious morality as a prod.
A demented fuckwit has opined.
I don’t care what did or did not happen to her. First and foremost, I don’t believe rape exists. When there are incidents that are classified as “rape,” or names that are similar, what usually ends up happening is that the “victim” tends to “forget” to mention immodesty, flirty actions, or other conduct on their part that contributed to the matter. A woman who dresses immodestly must accept accountability for her choice of attire.
If, in fact, this girl was being molested or forced into prostitution as the media outlets say her tweets claimed, then it was her fault that it happened, and continued to happen.
The guilt of the stepfather has not been established, but it must be some consolation to him that his actions were irrelevant, no matter what: if he raped his stepdaughter, it was all her fault.
This sounds like the institutionalized misogyny of the Taliban, doesn’t it? You won’t be surprised to learn that the source of this heinous doctrine was the Mormon church.
The prophet Spencer W. Kimball wrote in his book “The Miracle of Forgiveness”:
“In a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where this is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.”
The bold emphasis is mine. Even though a woman may cry rape or may claim that sex was not consensual, if she doesn’t successfully defend her virtues, and allows the so-called “attack” to take place, then she loses the right to call herself a victim. It is better to die defending one’s virtues!
There may be no “condemnation,” as he says, but notice that that only puts the woman in a “more favorable position,” and that’s assuming that she didn’t “cooperate,” by not defending her virtue or in cases such as this story allowing the “abuse” to go on for years without taking steps to stop it.
I would say that, condemnation or not, she is not completely absolved of accountability unless she successfully defended her virtues or died in the process, or at the very least take steps to stop it. She appears to have not done any of these things, save for the last one, and that was done far too late, which I would say calls her motives into question.
The Mormon leadership claims to be literal prophets — this is the church of latter day saints, after all — and therefore speaks the literal voice of god. Which just means that wretched awful excuses for humanity like Spencer Kimball get to stand up and declare their bigoted opinions to be divine and inarguable. It’s a sweet gig. And the followers get an unlimited excuse for tolerating the intolerable.
Here’s Michael Crook’s Mormon morality.
There are those who would say that her followers should have helped her. Not so! They had no legal obligation to do so. I wouldn’t help someone, whether they cried out on Twitter, or whether I personally witnessed so-called “abuse.” Welcome to real life. The onus is on the so-called “victim” to man up, per at least two General Authorities of the LDS Church.
He’s admitted that if he saw a woman being raped, he’d shrug it off and let her defend herself. It’s all her fault, and church dogma tells him that that’s OK. In fact, there are a lot of things he considers OK that normal people would find repugnant.
Am I allowed to quit humanity?
Is this from the coaching handbook at Penn St.?
Sometimes I really hate people.
How can one “defend one’s virtue” if there is no such thing as “rape”?
I know it’s not right to wish sexual abuse on another person, but in an unjust world it would be extremely educational for Crook and his hierarchy to experience physical attacks that included bodily penetration. In that sense, such experiences might actually benefit them; but they would certainly benefit any and all women who must interact with them.
Sounds to me like he has no defense against a good beating, since he clearly is bringing it on with his incendiary behavior.
Wow, that guy is a piece of shit.
I’d like to claim surprise or some extended level of outrage, but really this isn’t that unexpected.
These people are evil and awful. Their attitudes are monstrous and they should be segregated from society in a prison. They probably have committed crimes of the sort they say don’t exist.
Better if you stay; they‘ve clearly already left, and we need all the sane people we can get.
Funny how this kind of logic only ever seems to apply to rape, though, isn’t it. I’ve never yet[1] seen a religious leader explain that if you were burgled or mugged it was your fault for having things worth stealing, or that the victims of a serial killer were obviously asking to be kidnapped and slaughtered.
[1] counterexamples not exactly welcomed, but certainly accepted with interest. (I rarely welcome examples of human stupidity, but if I’m wrong I’d prefer to know so I don’t do it again.)
This makes me feel physically sick. I was 11, I was terrified and I didn’t want to die. I have enough guilt about what happened to me without some deluded idiot trying to add to it by telling me that I should have died trying to defend my virtue or that by not fighting I carry some of the blame. How dare someone tell me that such an act of violence against a child is anyone’s fault but the aggressors – there are no words. Sometimes I despair of humanity…
now I have to dip my laptop in 3 Molar urea!
Of all the links you have ever shown, that is by far the most toxic!
Isn’t this the guy who made “Forsakethetroops.com“? If so I call “troll”, or even “mad”.
Where is the condemnation of one person assaulting another. It was just a just a young woman so I guess she does not count. Some of this “it’s OK not to get involved” seems ironically familiar. The attitude is similar to the recent problems at Penn State. In neither case is the criminal behavior grounds for intervention. Must be those upstanding religious morals I keep hearing about that are rarely demonstrated.
You know I try and see other sides in an argument, I try and engage in a rational way… But really reading his posts and beliefs I don’t know what to say. How can you possibly see things like that and still be a card carrying member of the human race.
What a complete and utter asshole.
I’m on track to finding out the name of his Bishop. I’m sure that his Stake President would absolutely love to know what he’s been posting.
(I dated an apostate Mormon for a time, I know, it’s sad.)
A sad, sick, demented little man. I don’t usually wish violence on people, but in his case I can make an exception.
“If he saw a woman being raped, he’d shrug it off and let her defend herself.”
Where I come from, that would land him in jail for three years. I sincerely hope the US have a similar law.
And it’s possible the next President of the United States will belong to this church. Wow, makes you proud to be an American, doesn’t it?
I wish Spider Jerusalem were real so we could sic him on these assholes.
Would it be out of order to suggest that this guy sounds like a rapist himself?
He is, apparently, a “griefer” – a form of troll that takes satisfaction in irritating and upsetting others. I’m not sure that he deserves the oxygen of publicity (or even, as someone-but-I-forget-who-said, the oxygen of oxygen).
If only the Bible, say, contained some words of wisdom that suggested people should act as a Good Samaritan to other folks in trouble…
Oh, wait a minute.
Never mind.
Is there another life form than bears a striking physical resemblance to humans. I hear the words and see the videos of this sick demented individual and cannot reconcile that he is of the same species as myself.
No, I don’t think it’s out of order. In fact, anyone who can seriously support that kind of claims is suspect in my book.
“Demented fuckwit”. Says it all, really.
Said demented fuckwit is getting righteously slagged in his post’s comments.
The demented creed of those who really believe that nature is red in tooth and claw.
What a tragedy for the girl. It’s also a tragedy that such ignorant primitive superstition gives men an excuse to be misogynistic cowards. I’m so glad that the men I know aren’t such useless humans.
“If he saw a woman being raped, he’d shrug it off and let her defend herself.”
Where I come from, that would land him in jail for three years. I sincerely hope the US have a similar law.
It is indeed against the law in the US. If it’s known that someone saw a crime and didn’t report it. That’s tough to do. But it is illegal to ignore a felony taking place.
I’d like to put together a squad of helpful guys that are willing to provide some perspective to these religious men (oddly they all seem to be men for some reason).
Perspective will be provided to these fuckwad-dipshit-assbags when they experience a little men-on-man action against their will. Of course it wouldn’t be rape because that doesn’t exist. It is also helpful to know that their friends (if they have any) won’t help because it is always the victim’s fault (and in these cases it actually would be).
….stories about innocents being harmed make me so angry….and these fuckers that claim we cannot know ‘morality’ without their imaginary god….
Never before have I felt so completely driven to punch someone in their genitalia while demanding that they apologize for existing. That probably makes me a bad person. At least I could still be considered a person.
I don’t even, really, have words for this. I just can’t form coherent thought through the rage that this inspires in me. Absolutely disgusting. Fucking… Mormons…
Mormons, more than most other religious, can’t claim ambiguity in religious matters – living prophets say what is currently their deity’s instructions. A Mormon cannot simply read the book and make up his own mind, as many Christians and even Muslims, claim to do. So this is especially disgusting and alarming, when the most viable GOP candidate (and likely the next President) is an adherent of this hideous ideology. Mitt’s ascendence gives us more than magic underwear to be concerned about.
His family name “Crook” says it all for me.
How, exactly, can any pre-pubescent child consent to sex? A child so young is neither legally nor morally educated to recognize and understand the crime being perpetrated on them by a family member in authority over them, most typically so in religious families who refuse to allow sex education. If they can’t even recognize the crime until too late how can they defend their “virtue”?
This inhuman creature’s comments are indefensible.
I guess the point I’m trying to make is that whether it’s Sean Hannity or Pharyngula commenters aggrieved responses are exactly what this sod desires.
If this is one of those Mormon on-going Divine Revelations we always hear about (black bad! [public outrage] no blacks ok!) it tells us all we need to know about the nature of the God they claim.
If your God hates all the same people you do, you can be sure he’s just a construct of your imagination.
What do you think the chances are that every woman who meets this guy wants to knee him in the groin?
Mainstream conservatives have already established that sexual harrassment of women isn’t real (as per the Herman Cain scandal), so we just might be looking at the future here, folks. As bizarre as it seems now, save it somehwere and check back in 10 years or so.
It just might be coming out of the mouth of a primary candidate.
BRB throwing up.
Hey! Cut the guy some slack. He’s probably been wearing that magic Mormon underwear, & got overheated round where the sun don’t shine.
And you know this why?
There’s a bit of a difference between a troll and religious “authority” making proclamations.
His site appears to be down at the moment. I wonder if he’s failed to defend himself?
@Tualha:
Need to borrow my sonic bowel disruptor?
“The onus is on the victim to ‘man up’? What kind of stupid jackass even thinks that sort of crap?
@Zinc Avenger
I snickered. Having had my evil thought for the morning, I can now go be useful.
Thanks.
Well, I guess Jerry Sandusky will be glad to hear all this.
Oh wait, no .. HE only ‘horsed around’.
Anyway, troll or not, the guy is obviously sick. One way or the other.
Michael Crook. Well named.
Unlike Mikey, who only has to look at his Book of Morons, I have to look at the man in the mirror. Unlike him, I cannot “not” help any victim of a violent crime. At the very least, I’d have to call police and serve as a witness at the trial. The Man in the Mirror is a stern taskmaster, unlike the invisible, impotent Mayor McWimpy who Mikey professes to believe exists.
I was raised mormon but walked out on that joke of a religion (created by a fucking con-man) years ago.
I would think that most mormons would be appalled by this guy, but the story and his fucking site made me so angry I posted it to Facebook. I have many friends and relatives that are mormon who won’t be happy to see this, but I’m tired of keeping my mouth shut. Time to take a stand and show people what their beliefs condone.
And people have the nerve to ask “What’s the harm?”.
Maybe we should stop excusing trolls who do this and point out that they are even worse people because they’re knowingly going and kicking rape victims. Someone who gets off on doing this isnt perfectly normal. This is someone who has decided women are subhuman and worthy of abuse for his entertainment
You know how its generally accepted that, if someone says “im not a racist, but” the very next thing that will come out of their mouths willbe racist and, therefore, its probably pretty safe to assume that they are racists (or at leat really, realu clueless)?
This guy flat out said rape doesn’t exist, except for when it does, and then its the woman’s fault.
The chances that he is a rapist and is trying to justify and erase that fact approaches 100%.
@Zinc Avenger: For about 40 years, mmmkay?
So the next time someone has a fit about someone asking about Mitt’s Mormon connections, this bit of “theology” should be presented along with the question of is this really how they think? Perhaps this is a lone nut, but if he’s actually quoting “prophets,” someone needs to ask Mitt and the “prophets” if this is really a LDS stance.
If not for the lulz alone…
Interesting guy, in a “Oh yay, thank you for reminding that there are self centered jerks who think victims deserve to be victims.” way.
I think the just punishment for Crook would be to wake up tomorrow morning in a woman’s body. Alas, reality doesn’t work that way.
Thank you for reminding me of the depths to which human beings can descend in defense of the indefensible. I wonder how many girls this guy has raped. Or maybe he’s just angry at women for forcing him to commit the sin of masturbation by having the temerity to wear less than a hijab. His next date should be with a necrotic porcupine.
He’s also (Surprise surprise) against abortions or giving any aid to single mothers. It’s true what they say about people only being ‘pro-life’ right up until the moment of birth.
Crook by name, crook by nature.*
*Apologies to any other Crooks here, that was probably a lame joke you’ve heard a thousand times before :/
And? You act as if it’s the worst thing in the world to give attention to an asshole who wants attention. As if the assholes run the show, and if they want attention, we are duty bound to do the opposite. If they say they want everyone to speak out about how awful they are, we should shut up. Only if a disgusting misogynist specifically says we should shut up about what a travesty their lack of humanity is should we speak out about it, is that the case?
You’re an idiot.
Highlighting misogyny when it’s so blatant is a useful exercise, particularly when there are many anti-feminists, as well as just plain clueless doods, who come around going, “Rape culture? What’s that? What a ridiculous concept, I’m sure you nutty feminists just made it up to make men feel guilty.”
Well, here is it: rape culture. Rape culture in Mormonism, rape culture at Penn State, rape culture in the Catholic church, rape culture in the prisons. It’s fucking everywhere, that’s what we’re highlighting here. This man is just a useful tool. Sorry you’re too short-sighted to see that.
What the fuck? There aren’t enough insults in the world for me to fully insult this dickhead. Really, because a person might lack the physical strength to fight off an attacker, they are asking for it?
Hell, I cannot even think because I’m so fucking angry. Not only that, his idea is so brain-dead stupid that coming up with a coherent response is nearly impossible. I’m impressed that anyone got out more than a “fuck you” to this guy.
This guy must be jealous of all the attention given to the WBC.
I wonder if this fuckwit – or perhaps clones of him – is in charge of the police in those cities where all the rape kits get tossed into storage and never examined…
So, he thinks that the children of single mothers, as well as single mothers, should starve and that races should be segregated. The compassion flows from this one.
Do. Not. Feed. The. Troll.
http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/mdk72/girl_was_raped_and_abused_from_ages_1418_she/c303ibm
I’d really love to hear this asshole explain prison rapes, considering everyone wears nearly identical outfits.
TrollScore™: 10/10 – Winner!
– Insane, but logically plausible rationalization of position => 1 pt
– Incites extreme rage (griefer) => 2 pts
– “Pharyngulized” => 7 points!
More really enlightened stuff (not) Spencer W. Kimball said:
– Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness
You can still buy the pamphlet in which Prophet/Seer/Revelator Spencer W. Kimball all but confesses to practicing mutual masturbation, and having homosexual thoughts. The LDS Church still sells the collection of Kimball’s thoughts on the subject:
http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product3_715839595_10557__-1__195694
There have been several threads on exmormon.org recently that tell tales of woe from a parent’s point of view when the local Bishop forbids their son or daughter participation in the sacrament for reasons of impurity. Girls do not have to be raped to be judged as “impure.” And boys have only to admit to masturbation to be shamed in front of their entire ward. Everyone in the mormon ward (administrative district, with an assigned church to attend) knows that sin has been committed and that’s why the person is unworthy to participate. Some boys have to put off going on a mission if they admit to the bishop that they have been masturbating.
So, is this an example of that elusive sophisticated theology we atheists never actually argue against?
I’d say the chance that he is a rapist, or simply wants to be a rapist and is too wedded to his own hand to try it, approaches 100%. That he hates women is clear. That he has used his religion as an excuse for this is clear.
Waste of skin, IMO. The gene pool needs cleaning up over there, I think. With any luck his complete nastiness is evident even to very stupid, desperate women and the self-cleaning procedure will work.
I sympathize with those who wonder how he would like it if he were raped, though actually, even he doesn’t deserve to be raped–comes closer than just about anyone I ever heard of, but no.
So none of those slutty women who decided they’d rather live than die “fighting for their virtue” are victims. Because “virtue”, what ever the fuck that is, is far more important than life.
I know it’s inhuman, but I really hope this guy is the victim of a violent crime in a public place. I hope that during this violent crime everyone who walks by asks him, “So why are you being rape/beaten/robbed/stabbed. You know it’s your fault for being violated by that bullet.”
I then want him to go to the police, and have them ask him want he was wearing to cause him to get attacked. I want the police to tell him that it is all his fault. I want his community to shun him for losing his manhood and virtues. I want everyone who passes him on the street to mutter, “slut.”
If you read the comments, he defends his position even in the case of two-year-olds?!?!
That makes me think he is truly a psychopath or just looking to troll everyone in order to gain some weird form of notoriety.
In either case he is a disgusting asshole.
Cross-posted from The Endless Thread:
LDS instructions to “the youth” concerning music and dancing:
http://lds.org/manual/for-the-strength-of-youth-fulfilling-our-duty-to-god/music-and-dancing?lang=eng
Excerpt:
Really wish I could I unclick that link.
That’s women’s fault too, forth eitehr being prisioners or for not being in the the men’s prison. And it’s ONLY women whose clothing incites rape. Mr. Crook thinks that men are mindless rape-beasts, therefore, showing a little knee means a man MUST rape and a lack of women equals the need to turn on each other.
*I* wonder if Mr Crook blames prison rape victims too. Male ones, that is.
I tried to comment, but he’s got moderation on, and I doubt mine will get approved. I pointed out that his “logic” implied that if he’d been the person to catch Sandusky in the shower buggering a little boy, he’d walk away – because if the boy wasn’t fighting to the death, he must have wanted it. And I made a slightly rude comment about magic underwear.
Are we really going to talk about troll feeding on this thread? Have people not been paying attention? Look, if there’s one thing trolls hate, it’s sunlight. But we should really define trolling. There’s generally an assumption with that word of deception, that the individual doesn’t really have, or care about, the opinions they’re expressing. I don’t think we can assume that’s the case here. People really have these opinions, and they should be brought to light so that we can ridicule them and call them idiots. It also helps to bring them to light so that when someone says there are misogynist asswipes like this sending them emails, we can show solid evidence that they’re not making this shit up.
Second, the policy of not feeding trolls can be useful in certain contexts, but not all. I’m all for ignoring trolls in blog comments, especially when they go far off topic, and especially on blogs where hitting trolls with hammers isn’t a big part of the fun (i.e. places other than Pharyngula), but sometimes even comment trolls have to be called on their idiocy at least once before they’re ignored. It is also important to shine the light of day into this moron’s basement, but we need not all click the link. He doesn’t deserve traffic, and I think PZ’s summary is sufficient for most of us on this one. Follow the link if you must, but think about the traffic generated for him first. But this brings up a strategic point that does matter, the nofollow tag. If you apply the nofollow tag to a link it will prevent your linking the site from enhancing its search engine ranking. And that is a useful thing to do. I know PZ has used nofollow when linking sites like the Dishonesty Institute in the past, so I checked whether he used it here before commenting, expecting to see that he had. He did not, so I’m not sure if that was an oversight, or that he simply doesn’t think this clowns search rating is significant enough to even worry about.
Michael Crook’s post is one of the most disgusting things I have ever read. It’s made me nauseous. I have two daughters. I would be hard pressed not to punch the fucker in the face if he said things like this in front of me.
Cross-posted from The Endless Thread:
More scrutiny of Moments of Mormon Madness — the following is from the present-day Young Women’s Manual. It illustrates the glorious heights to which mormon guilt-inducing skills can rise.
The story below comes from our man, the Prophet, Spencer W. Kimball.
More Young Women’s Manual gems: http://lds.org/manual/young-women-manual-2/lesson-15-temple-marriage?lang=eng
This stuff comes to you directly from an officially sanctioned LDS Church website. They will love the fact that we are using the internet as the General Authorities have directed, that is, to access church-maintained websites.
@SallyStrange, Spawn of Cthulhu
WTF? Could it not be that he simply hadn’t thought about it that way? You often pepper your informative comments with insults, and for the most part, I get it. In this case, all he’s saying is “don’t feed the troll.” You clearly don’t agree, and the comment you made about it certainly highlighted why responding to such misogynistic attitudes is worthwhile.
But he’s an idiot? Really?
No doubt, because the poor young woman committed suicide – a mortal sin! – these
MoronsMormons will reckon she is destined to rot in hell for all eternity.With worshippers like that it’s no wonder that “against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.”
So wait.
What the rapist did to you is so terrible that death is better, and you should be willing to die instead of endure it.
Yet, the person who did something to you that is worse than death has no responsibility for their action? Their action that is a worse fate than death?
I have no words for the amount of contempt I have for that attitude.
Do you call creationists “idiots”?
How many times must we explain why trolls are engaged, why ignoring them is a useless and really fucking dumb idea, and why telling other people to just ignore it is an asshole move BEFORE its okay to label someone an idiot for making the same failed arguement AGAIN.
It’s so easy to send other people to their death. How much authority does this guy have in LDS? Is he their version of the pope or archbishop? I’m only asking because those in authority have a greater chance of influencing the opinions of others.
I see no evidence of that.
Well then I say there is no such thing as a ‘beating’. So people who get beaten must have done something to instigate it and are therefore the ones responsible for their being beaten.
Like spewing such religious garbage.
SallyStrange –
Hey, thanks, complete stranger! I totally value your judgement ‘cos if there’s one person who’s bound to be smart it’s someone who judges somebody on a single comment. Nothin’ “short-sighted” about that!
The point is that this guy is an especially notorious troll – I’m not talking “Something Awful” here (I’m not even talking “4Chan”), I’m talking about someone who’s so massively successful at provoking outrage that he’s been on national television. (For, ironically, claiming US Army soldiers are “candidates” for retroactive abortion. Now, apparently, he’s against abortion. Yeah, whatever.) If you want to draw conclusions about the Mormons, be my guest – chase up the quote from this Kimball feller and see if it’s accurate. But getting outraged about someone whose sole purpose is to make you outraged will only ensure that they’re emboldened and promoted and will go on to outrage plenty more.
WTF? This is some of the most vile crap I’ve ever read.
Lynna:
Bullshit. Whenever I masturbate, I experience a growth towards godhood.
Touche. We are talking about a religous whackjob, after all.
My jaw just dropped when I read this. This is seriously fucked up. I simply can’t bring myself to believe that this guy is for real. It’s absolutely unimaginable to be that someone can seriously advance such a position.
But even if he’s trolling. It takes a very sick mind to use something so disgusting like that.
This is so beyond evil that I cannot even think about appropiate insults for this piece of shit.
Moggie @82, Please note that I didn’t say that stuff about masturbation, Spencer W. Kimball said that.
Yes. Next question?
*facepalm* Oh yeah, Sally is *totally* wrong about you.
See what I mean, Fleegman? It was explained to him why his argument is worth less than used toilet paper and his response was to repeat it.
At what point does repeating the worthless and cowardly argument become idiotic?
The Mormon leadership are as much prophets, seers, and revelators as my cat.
There is a bright side sort of. It is estimated that up to 1/2 of all Mormons are apathetic, inactive, or have left their cult.
Ex-mormons are discussing Crook’s post:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,342954
Excerpt:
Michael Crook’s “I’m a Mormon” profile:
http://mormon.org/me/6P4K/MichaelCrook/
It really bothers me how much our society seems to blame the victim. If you are poor, then you’re somehow not industrious enough. If you are sick, then surely you made poor choices in lifestyle & brought it on yourself. This is the lingering legacy of superstition. And so many people buy it. If good things happen to you, it means you are a good obedient god fearing person. If bad things happen to you, it’s because you are sinful.
Don’t even get me started on the whole “karma” thing.
This goes even further & is why I came to really hate the religions of Abraham. It forgives the rapist while condemning the victim. All women are daughters of Eve, that naughty vixen temptress who duped Adam & ruined everything.
So his urges are caused by her mere presence. It’s her fault. If god hadn’t wanted her punished, he would have given her the strength to fend him off.
Ugh.
As a few commenters already pointed out, the Penn State case is a perfect example of our rape culture.
Blaming victims is deeply indoctrinated into our psyche. If you report a violent crime to the police, they interrogate YOU. Not really hard to figure out why that young girl “cooperated by not going to the authorities” for as long as she did.
Violent crime, especially rape & harrassment are under reported because victims get treated like crap by the authorities & institutions that are supposedly there to help & protect them.
From Crook’s profile on mormon.org:
I don’t think that is true.
In the bible, the sin of Onan was not masturbation. It was spilling his seed on the ground to avoid impregnating his dead brothers wife.
It was disobedience towards the Sky Monster itself.
PS Spencer Kimball, one of the Mormon Popes near the end of the 20th century once claimed that dark skinned people who joined the Mormon church would turn white. This is, in fact, what it says in the book of Mormon itself so he didn’t actually make it up. They’ve since had their Ministry of Truth revise their magic book.
Ah, so he admits consuming alcoholic beverages (not that there’s anything wrong with that) and engaging in immoral conduct.
Forgive me, but is he saying that a raped woman is actually guilty for not having killed herself soon enough? Or am I missing something?
@59, @68
Are you kidding me? Orange jumpsuits are fabulous!
And, since wearing one is tantamount to pleading to be sodomized, it logically follows that prisoners must be willing to fight guards to the death rather than be forced to put on such tempting jailhouse garb. Otherwise, they are not really defending their virtue, and deserve every last bit.
@Illuminata
Ok, yeah. Point made.
We all know the rules.
Xians, creating atheists since 33 CE.
Must be another one here.
Mormons, creating ex-Mormons since 1833.
Really this guy would want to make run screaming out of the LDS cult if I was a
membervictim.Even J. Smith’s first wife and some of his kids left it. They went back to the midwest and formed a different church, the Reformed LDS, which is reportedly a lot less cuckoo that the main church. Up until recently all the leaders had the last name of Smith and were his descendants.
@83
I think this goes beyond religion. This is someone that is sick and looks to the words of other sick men in order to justify their sickness instead of attempting to deal with it.
That sad part is that this sickness infects good people who were brought up in that religion.
Fuck him. Yes, I, at the age of six/seven/eight flirted and asked to be raped. Jeez, why didn’t I see this before? How could I have not known that it was my fault. Oh, maybe because every sane person in this world knows that rape is very real. That it happens to people of all ages and both genders. And that no one asks for it. Dumbass.
Crook, a sad excuse for a human being:
And this way, with the victim dead, you don’t have to worry overmuch about justice. Or sin, for that matter.
BenSix:
So – if I am understanding your point correctly – the way to get a public pass on being a total and complete asshole is simply to enjoy being a total and complete asshole. Rape apology is, after all, a much smaller problem then feeding a troll. Let’s all stay focused on the real issue here, right?
Gotcha.
What a filthy shit of a creature. I can’t believe I have to breathe the same atmosphere as assholes like that.
What a creep. But let us follow his manner of thinking: “
SheJesus was notrapedcrucified. It is notrapecrucifixion if you bring it on yourself. It is notrapecrucification unless you die trying to protect yourself.” Holy crap.……………..
Why does he need to link to the word “indites”? Twice? What a pretentious wanker…
I don’t think Coulter or OReilly are sincere. They are still assholes because there are people who agree with their bullshit and they keep pouring out the douche even knowing people are acting on their blather and harming others.
Only if you find a way to mutate. :-)
In his defense, Spencer W. Kimball’s quote does not agree with this fuckwit’s interpretation. Kimball said pretty clearly that women who are forced into it are not the responsible parties. But he does leave the idea open that women might “participate” in the crime and bear some responsibility, and whether that’s what he meant or the implication of a poor choice of words it’s wholly wrong. So is the idea that it’s better for a victim to die trying to defend her chastity.
And here’s the problem with calling someone a prophet: there is no possibility for his choice of words to be poor (it’s all sacred) and there’s no possibility for something he said to be wrong. Every little implication bears the weight of God. Once you remove ordinary simple human fallibility from the equation, an ordinary person’s even well-intentioned words can justify all sorts of evil.
Personally, i don’t care if a drunk 18-year-old supermodel is walking butt ass naked down a back alley on her way home. It’s still the guy’s fault.
And just to clear up a poor wording of my part, I meant “it’s still the rapist’s fault.”
From his website:
“I believe all “Good Samaritan” and “render aid” laws should be abolished.”
Child in a mans body. Poor thing. What a miserable little existence.
If this guy is serious, I hope he dies a very slow, very painful death. If he’s some kind of troll, I hope he dies a very slow, very painful death.
We are talking about a cruel, cruel man who lacks any sort of empathy. There is no need to insult children. This goes far beyond maturity levels.
How can one “defend one’s virtue” if there is no such thing as “rape”?
I’m sure he feels there’s a crime known as “getting raped.” But as usual, the man’s innocent.
Yes, but it wasn’t his fault. The alcohol was prancing about in provocative clothing, practically asking to get consumed. It had it coming.
Complete bull crap! A woman should defend her virtue and has every right to do so, even up to the point of lethal force, but a small child cannot be expected to do so and that is why she has parents and sometimes bad things still happen. In many cases fighting or not a man will prevail if determined due to sheer strength. We need to change how we view sex offenders in this country. Pedophiles need to be put down like the dogs that they are and violent rapists too.
A perfect illustration of privilege, this dude. He doesn’t like laws or programs that help other people, becaue he doesn’t need them. He’s clearly immune from violent crime, so he shouldn’t have to help. Victims deserve to be vitcims – and that doesn’t include him because he’s special.
Until he needs that program, or that assistance. THEN it will be a god given right.
I’m actually shaking with rage at this repulsive filthy evil little puddle of shitstain.
I need to get off the internet for a while.
Can we please not use the phrase “defend one’s virtue”? A person doesn’t lose their virtue just because they get raped; that idea is just another aspect of the rape culture.
This episode shows that there are levels of goofy even among the goofy. This Mormon prophet’s position on the guilt of raped women contrasts markedly with what St. Augustine had to say on the topic in a famous passage of his book the City of God in which the saint criticized Roman pagans for demanding that some attacked virgins should have died defending themselves or at least committed suicide after the outrage.
Protect her virtue? Way to focus on the important bits. Protect herself, yes, but emphasizing that she should protect her virtue is stupid and makes you sound like a religious fuckwit. Like her life and health are not nearly as important as her virtue – meaning, protecting her Holly Sex for the right man, not letting a rapist “spoil the goods” and such nonsense that religious fuckwits think of when they talk about virtue and chastity.
No. Anger is understandable, but no.
I think it’s amusing (and sad, really) that the woman/victim is at fault in this
dickface’sman’s messed up mentality of rape. What ever happened to blaming the person who can’t keep it in his pants?Of course, this guy probably doesn’t even understand that the perp could actually make the conscious decision to resist the urge to bang any pretty young thing that “dressing like she’s asking for it”. But penalizing sexual predators is probably just as bad as support for single mothers and their children in this dude’s book.
Personally, I think some guy named Duke needs to take this guy, bend him over, and forcibly demonstrate how to make santorum. After that, he can ramble on about fighting for virtue and all that other verbal diarrhea that he’s spewing.
Oddly enough, Mormons do not appreciate this argument thrown back at them when they complain that their churches and temples have been vandalised by supporters of equal rights in response to Proposition 8.
Or when they merely have sex. Sex isn’t dirty*, its not wrong. Women who have sex are not dirty, used goods, etc.
My virture isn’t in my crotch. The most “sacred” part of me is not my crotch. And a hearty FOAD to those who claim it is.
* – in the negative sense. Further explanation is probably TMI LOL
Sky – fuck off with your rape-as-punishment fantasies. Don’t you realize you just said EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID?
With regard to the cretin referenced in the opening post & quotations, words utterly fail me. But, to borrow a heartening thought from another (young) woman who suffered grievously at the hands of monsters, many of the responses above show there is great good in at least some people.
My brain is screaming to me that this guy is a Troll/Poe. But apparently I am likely wrong. It seems pretty amazing that more LDS people are not trying to change this guys mind.
Apologies, illuminata, you’re right. I shouldn’t have bothered to stoop way down to that guy’s level. But, as someone who’s been in the ‘victim’ position and is still processing a good deal of hate about the whole matter, I usually jump to the “then you be in my place and see how you feel, bud” mentality.
I also find that a lot of people are a whole lot of talk about specific things until they find themselves in a similar situation. So he’s against victim’s rights, help for the needy, and incredibly racist. I may not know a whole hell of a lot of things, but I’ve found that the majority of people who’ve gone from extreme viewpoints to a moderate, more wholly encompassing one have been forced to walk in another person’s shoes for a while. I’m sure he’d change his opinions if he or any of his close family/friends turned into what he is so vehemently against.
So if your a rape victim it’s your responsibility to kill yourself.
Of course, just go to heaven and be happy ever after. Not only is suicide acceptable in this case, it’s expected. I wonder if thats what “stepdad” told her.
And I used to think that Mormons were nice people. Crazy but nice.
And where’s the mom in all of this? Married or not, if your new beau is doing……this to your daughter it’s time to pick up the phone and call in that airstrike. You could argue that she didn’t know but let me ask this:
How could you not know that you bf/husband is raping and selling your daughter to his buddies?
with more than 100 tweets she wasnt exactly keeping it a secret.
Then again maybe the mom condoned it. I guess some people will sell anything for cash.
Ing
^^This bears repeating.
————
It doesn’t matter if someone is a POE or a faker. The “ignore the troll arguments” are just the equivalent of the “I WAS JUST KIDDING!” defense that certain assholes always make when they are being criticized for saying something awful. The fact that a comment was not made in good faith is not a mitigating factor.
If your goal on this thread is to get us to ignore someone making inexcusable comments, then ask yourself why you would want a horrific attitude like the one highlighted in the OP to get less attention.
Then again, the mom might be in some trouble of her own.
One thing that mormons more tolerant than Crook would say is that Spencer W. Kimball was “speaking as a man” and not as a prophet when he made statements about rape, sex, masturbation, dancing, etc.
This “speaking as a man” phrase is a catch-all explanation that’s used when past pronouncements are found to be unacceptable to most citizens of the USA. The phrase is often followed by an admonition that we should listen only to the present Prophet. The present Prophet tells a few anecdotes that turn out not to match the facts of his own life, issues some proclamations about not wearing flip flops to church, and gives speeches about the importance of marrying early in order to have maximum children. That’s about it. He doesn’t have much to say about doctrine, because doctrine is difficult for his PR department to explain.
And then there’s this idea that the Journal of Discourses is not doctrine, and not official church policy. However, the LDS Church itself used the Journal of Discourses as a source more than 11,000 times on their official sites. (Research on use of Journal of Discourses as a source, courtesy of an ex-mormon.) The LDS Church also uses speeches given at General Conferences as source material for guiding the lives of their members (see link in comment #72, for example).
In other words, they say one thing, and then do another. They use the Journal of Discourses and the conference talks when it is convenient for them, and they disavow the same sources whenever those sources get them in trouble.
The leaders do stick to certain trends, like blaming women for inflaming the passions of men, like keeping women constrained to approved roles, and like preaching obedience and tithe-paying as the ultimate virtues. In talking about these topics, they may soften the language, but the basic message stays the same.
Everything else is fair game for flip flopping as necessary, and/or for sweeping under the carpet.
Borked the link in comment #129:
http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&safe=off&site=webhp&source=hp&q=site:lds.org+%22in+journal+of+discourses%22&pbx=1&oq=site:lds.org+%22in+journal+of+discourses%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=62691l65446l1l66935l5l4l1l0l0l1l1163l1847l2-3.7-1l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d013020512624b3e&biw=1015&bih=566
I have heard of cases where young girls commit suicide after rape because their religion teaches them that they have lost their honor, society teaches them that they should have been more careful. Now this asshole is saying they should have died during the act not after. Sometimes, I don’t know how to express my anger in words.
This is about enough to make me ragequit. WHAT THE HELL? Is this guy for real????
I was hesitant to click on the link at the end of the post. When I did I was surprised to find it blocked by my employer’s content filter. Interesting given what isn’t filtered. I guess I work for a fairly progressive energy company.
I mean even if it’s a Poe the person posting it clearly doesn’t think that this demographic of people is worthy of enough respect and that attacking them is funny.
Someone who likes to post Nigger on the internet because it upsets people is someone who doesn’t believe that the feelings of black people actually matter.
@129 Lynna
So “speaking as a man” is like “speaking off the record” in a metaphysical sense?
Or is it more like beginning a sentence with “I don’t mean to be rude” and expect the person you’re talking with to forgive you because you issued a warning?
What if he isn’t? He’s still promoting it and there are still people who are real about it.
This is an anti-mormon site. Yay, frankly.
I’m glad to see, by whatever manner, that very damaging Mormon beliefs are being displayed in such a way.
Mormon teachings about rape, masturbation, and other sexual mores are damaging and horrific.
It’s terrible what happened to this girl. Just as bad is religious beliefs that play it down.
Down with Mormonism, and down with sex abuse!
Try growing up in this religion.
Try growing up with a batshit crazy parent that takes everything literally.
Try growing up with a sexual predator in the household.
Try growing up where an alien world view is shoved down your throat 5 days a week.
Try growing up when you know everything you’re being indoctrinated with is bullshit.
The brainwashing starts at four with “Jesus Wants Me for a Sunbeam”.
I thank the powers of the cosmos (or whatever) that my logical mind kicked in at an early age. If not, I would have been banging on your door with a Book of Mormon in my hand.
I still can’t fathom how those idiots actually believe that shit.
Michael Crook retweeted a tweet by comedian Jeffrey Ross about 15 hours ago:
We must not forget who the real victim in the #PennState scandal is… the guy who has to mop the showers.
That was retweeted by hundreds of people, but most of them probably just thought it was a black comedy comment, without really considering the effect it might have on certain people. I’d keep my distance if I was a woman or child in Michael Crook’s community…
Microsoft Bing could effectively function as a sort of parole for people like Crook if it ever becomes as popular as Google. The first hit on Google for Michael Crook (the guy, not the female photographer) is The Internet’s Most Hated Man, The Strange Story of Michael Crook. So if you google him you get the right idea at a glance. If you Bing Michael Crook you only get Michael Crook, soldier Hater as the last hit on the first page.
Keep shining.
Joseph Smith did want to be the next Muhammad (as opposed to christ). That must play a part in the similarities between the fantasies of islam and mormonism.
In mormonism, they take this shame about being used goods one step further. There’s the usual “licked cupcake” anecdotes, but there’s also the idea that even a married woman is somehow used and damaged goods when it comes to remarriage. Mormons make some exceptions for celebrities, like Marie Osmond, but for most of the sheeple, the ideal of marrying one man for “time and eternity” in the temple is so strong that it can be very depressing to women whose circumstances prevent them from living the ideal.
As one ex-mormon wrote:
Another ex-mormon writes:
And here’s another example:
And another:
And another:
I cannot fathom the awfulness of this. I really love how these monsters cling to the moral superiority of their religious faiths. Apparently because I don’t believe their mumbo-jumbo, I’m bad? How do you figure that?
So frustrating!
Here’s Mitt and Ann Romney’s wedding information:
You got to be kidding me. Is this real? Not a Poe? That is one of the sickest things I have ever read. If this isn’t a Poe all I’ve got to say is…FUCK YOU Mormons. I shit on you and your foul religion.
Like just about none at all that aren’t shared with Christianity?
BTW, there is a great podcast by two ex-mormons called Irreligiosophy. There are over 100 episodes (they are done now) and they cover the idiocy of mormonism as well as christianity, islam and many other religious/fantastical beliefs. I’ve been listening to them starting from their first episode and it is great stuff.
http://www.irreligiosophy.com/
Sadly, among all the negative comments on this site is a poor lady who is pretty much completely agreeing with this guy that there’s no such thing as rape, at least as long as the victim dressed in a certain way. I wrote an angry response, but for whatever reason, both of my comments are in moderation (while all the ones calling him a vile human being are up for everyone to see).
Did Michael Crook just declare open season on himself …
There are those who would say that his followers should have helped him. Not so! They had no legal obligation to do so. I wouldn’t help him, whether he cried out on Twitter, or whether I personally witnessed so-called “abuse.” Welcome to real life.
@Amy:
Actually thisn’t an anti-Mormon site. It’s just an anti-idiocy / -evilness / -backwards-thinking website.
Yes, mine too. Although it might be because I ended my comment by telling him to go fuck himself. Apparently profanity isn’t allowed in his comments. It’s fine to spout the sort of vile filth that he spouts, but you can’t swear…
Whilst I am generally heartened by the comments I am seeing both here and on his own site, that some people are agreeing with him (including the woman you referenced) drives me to despair. I wanted to report him to his hosting company but he’s deliberately used one that allows him to say anything he wants as long as he’s not breaking a US law.
Of course the religious view is misogynistic. But it’s so much more! It doesn’t deny only women their humanity. It denies men theirs as well. To the Mormon—or whatever religious nitwit you’re talking about—men aren’t responsible for their actions. They are robots who will respond to the sight of a woman’s ankle or knee or hair (!) with an uncontrollable lust-rampage. Religion demeans us all.
@Fotoface
Someone mentioned Irreligiosophy. One of the hosts was (Technical allegedly) raped as a boy and talked about how he didn’t tell anyone because of Mormon beliefs.
I doubt that many here are Twilight fans.
There are obvious reasons why one wouldn’t be but here is one you may have not heard of :
http://applesparkles.wikia.com/wiki/Imprinting
This story reminded me of “imprinting” for some strange little reason.
I’d just like to point out that Stephanie Myers(author of Twilight) is a mormon. You think Myer’s religion informs her writing just a tad?
I’m failing to see anyone here who has said that there is no such thing as rape…either that, or I need to brush up on my reading comprehension.
@Nemothederv
Twilight is a horrific look into a Mormon woman’s psyche. The conflict between the good mormon values, desire for greater sexual satisfaction and associations of sex and childbirth with brutal violence is a genuine carnival of the soul.
The later.
(hint, it’s bolded)
And Michael crook believes: “I believe all “Good Samaritan” and “render aid” laws should be abolished.
You know, if he’s injured and someone rushes to his aid, all he has to do is say “No, let me bleed to death” and they will let him bleed.
@157 ing
Yes, but Edward is so dreamy.
I had to refer my significant other to that link to prove I wasn’t simply being a “hater”.
If only Robert Patterson would use his powers for good and not evil.
Believe me – I understand. I’m a survivor myself. My objection – despite the fact that I also occasionally have the exact same internal reaction as you – is that we say there is a circumstance where rape is a fitting punishment, then we’ve validated his position. We’ve basically agreed that some people “deserve” it.
As for the rest of your post – I totally agree. See #114.
**
Wasn’t that the same person who declare all women “psychotic” not long ago?
@Nemothederv
…That, or she’s just psychotic. Which women sometimes are. Not to point fingers or anything.
Ugh, Twilight is dretch not only from its poor writing but its obvious stalkerish / mental abuse tendencies from Edward.
“For the love of God, Montresor!”
this is for real. having lived amongst mormons for six months (that was as long as i could handle it) i will tell you that people generally accept this weird doctrine that if a man has a sexual desire, it means god has promised that woman to him to be his wife. basically eliminates rape as a concept because she is going against god’s will if she refuses. seriously creepy stuff.
Nemo doesn’t think ALL women are psychotic. But apparently those that are are at fault for men’s difficulty in negotiating social interactions somehow. I dunno. The annoying part was that he ran far, far away from addressing the numerous responses to his hare-brained comments.
Hardly. He appears to have been a cheap and fairly incompetent conman, who cooked up a story that ran away with him. What’s amazing is that so many people around him took it seriously. Once the ball was rolling he found himself becoming increasingly “important” and apparently enjoyed that. It wasn’t until quite a while into the game (a year+) that he started making pronouncements and channelling for god.
@162 Sallystrange
I think that film might cause psychosis. It seems more like mania though.
Come to think of it, it was probably the same way for Mohammed. He came up with some nonsense about a message from god and it fired up the troops and word got around and, after a while, saying “hey, guys, I was just kidding…” wouldn’t have worked.
I wonder how many founders of religions have found themselves getting hoisted up on a cross, or whatever, thinking “shit. I wish I’d told them I had a letter from my mother not the word of god. Ow! Ow! OW!”
OK then. If there is no rape? Then I wonder how much it would cost to have bubba the butt-fucker not rape Mr Crook? Hmmmm?
Did you see his defence of the Bishop who is being victimized by a couple of girls?
@166 Sallystrange
Not ALL of men’s difficulties but sometimes yes. Am I to assume that you think that ALL women are perfect communicators and never behave in ways that they shouldn’t? That every miscommunication or awkward moment is by default caused by males? That’s an awfully high standard. How do you do it?
and;
I could hardly believe that I read this correctly. This cretinous, misogynist, poor excuse for a human being (Crook – could the name be anymore apposite?) actually claims that rape doesn’t exist, and that a woman should die to, essentially, defend her honour? What kind of sociopath actually believes that in this day and age?
Then it gets even better;
So, the woman must die defending her ‘honour’ to be ‘absolved’, but Crook and his ilk wouldn’t even raise a finger to help her? I cannot imagine how morally bankrupt he must be that he would do nothing to prevent rape – any ethical person’s first impulse would be to either get help or intevene in person. He is busy broadcasting what a monster he really is, but he will doubtless be puzzled when people express their entirely justified revulsion for him and his sick little cult. Now the countdown begins to the usual claims of persecution from religious fanatics unhappy that they can’t just be left to be dominionist bigots in peace.
No, welcome to the horror show that is the sewer of Crook’s pathologically misogynist mind. How typical of an entitled, patriarchal jerk to put forward his disturbed dogma and claim that it is ‘just the way it is’.
In the unlikley event that I ever find him on fire, I must remember to get a bucket of water, then put it down out or reach and say; “Well, Crook, if you want to be absolved, you should defend your flesh from the flames, or die in the attempt. I have no legal obligation to help you. Welcome to real life…”
It seems that the Mormons are trying hard to snatch the crown for most obnoxious and toxic religion from the usual front runners – the Roman Catholic Church and Fundamentalist Islam.
They aren’t quite there yet, but they are surely catching up fast.
I can’t believe I have to repeat myself so soon. James, fuck off with your rape-as-punishment (with an extra side dish of homophobic bigotry). Do you not realize you are saying the EXACT SAME THING HE IS?
Moggie
“For the love of God, Montresor!”
Best comment evaar re “sealing”.
It would appear that my comment in response to the mascot on that page is still in moderation, but my first one where I just extended his rape logic to robbery seems to have disappeared. Strange, considering that Aquaria’s comment basically accusing him of being a rapist (a reasonable assumption) is up for everyone to see.
I figured I’d check out his comment policy, and because I seem to be in a bit of a mood today, I actually retyped all of it since that page disabled my highlight and right-click for some reason.
Well, naturally. If one reads that loosely enough, it means that anybody that disagrees with him is subject to bannination (gee, I thought that only happened here!).
Foul ideas are apparently just fine though.
Tee hee.
Darn, and I was all ready to stump for LaRouche there.
Was I too gay with my reasoning?
Was I not wearing my garmies?
Well, nice of him to admit it.
And here we are wringing our hands over whether or not to “out” Hoggle.
Any lawyers up in here?
Let me get this straight. If there was scenario where his daughter had immodest clothes or whatever, then is he telling me that he would get so horny that he would have sex with his daughter, and that would be all right because it would be the daughter’s fault?! That is the path that his twisted “logic” leads to.
I think the success of Mormonism shows that he was a very competent conman.
Isn’t Mitt Romney a mormon? Surely this stuff hasn’t a chance of sleazing into your presidency??
Moggie @ 164
You win one internet and a cask of fine wine (it’s in my basement).
Curious:
http://mhking.mu.nu/archives/082434.php
NOTE: that post is quite old, May 2005. Still, I am inclined to agree with a poster suggesting it may have been a publicity stunt on Crook’s part. Still digging…
*snicker*
Dude’s whack. Poo brain.
http://urbangrounds.com/2005/05/michael-crook-not-dead/
Alas, Crook lives.
JamesR @ #170: Stop fucking promoting rape as punishment. Seriously. Your violation fantasies do not belong here.
I wasn’t raised in any kind of abrahamic religion, but I felt, during and after my rapes, that I deserved to die. And wanted to kill myself, and yeah, maybe made a few attempts.
It’s so lovely seeing this asshole promoting that. And for those who say he’s just trolling: So fucking what?! There’s plenty of people who do believe exactly that, and he’s giving them plenty of cover.
I called him a cockroach on his site (moderated, of course). How is this piece of shit any different than the Saudi’s, who flog women for having the temerity of being raped?
In a perverse mood, I read all of the comments to his rant. There were actually two people who agreed with him (one a woman). His answers to some of the comments were insane. One commenter asked if 4, 6, 8 year old children should fight to the death for their virtue, and he said “absolutely”. If they didn’t, it was their own fault.
I have never heard of this cockroach before, but apparently he has somewhat of a reputation.
Screw him, and screw his church. They deserve each other.
The LDS church says that a rape victim needs to “man up”? How about rapists “man up” and take responsibility for their behaviour instead of blaming their actions on how immodestly they decide their victim is dressed?
I love how in these discussions of victims of rape as culpable, it’s always about her immodest dress or behaviour. Why isn’t there any mention of a male victim of rape being so immodest that another man cannot resist raping him? Oh, wait, I forgot, there’s no such thing as rape, let alone a MALE victim of rape.
I find this person fascinating…in the same way Clarice Starling found Hannibal Lecter fascinating.
How did this person end up like this? There’s got to be more to it than just a lack of critical thinking or compassion.
How representative is he of other Mormons? I see other Mormons responding negatively to him.
What does the Quorum of The Twelve have to say about Crook or his ideals?
Curious.
And I’d like to say something nice to happiestsadist, Sky, Augusta, and TJBrown, and all the other folk here who have experienced what Crook is trivializing, but I can’t think of anything that doesn’t sound trite. And I’m sure you don’t want virtual hugs from strange men on the internet.
What a vile, festering POS!
D’aww, thanks, NitricAcid. Some of the strangest men I’ve ever met helped get me back to a semblance of okayness. I accept the general sentiment offered.
But yeah, even aside from religion, rape culture is fucking everywhere. That said, an argument can definitely be made that a lot of it has bled through from religion into informing the manifestation of said rape culture within various groups of society. In the same way that Xtian values and beliefs have soaked into pretty much every aspect of North American life.
Also, Mormonism can die in a fucking fire.
Well, since we now know the “rules” of his blog, I think its safe to say that male rape victims exist if and only if their rapist is gay. Or is accused of being gay, at least.
And that victim would be totally blameless because, even though – according to Mr. Crook – straight men are mindless and blameless rape-beasts, gay men are Teh Ebil.
Must remember Mormons are a different set of human disappointments from the side hugs for abstinence lot.
Because I’d imagine the full frontal action of fighting off a rapist could be deemed terribly “provocative”…
I know I’m late to the discussion, but has anyone pointed out the extreme cognative dissonance necessary to argue “My invisible friend with all the neat superpowers exists and he informs me rape does not”?
One of the days Crook might piss off someone who decides to beat the living shit out him. When that happens, the attacker can claim, by Crook’s logic, “I don’t believe in assault. A man who speaks offensively must accept accountability for his choice of words. He had it coming.”
It’s one of those weird situations that I couldn’t condone, but would like to be around to witness.
Hey, Michael Crook.
I’m pretty sure you’re reading this comment thread by now.
Go see your doctor or your psychiatrist or psychologist depending on what applies best. Show that person your blog and your Youtube channel (especially the Youtube channel) and tell him or her about your current life situation.
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t seriously think you’ll listen. I just don’t want you to say the naughty atheists added to whatever it is that’s wrong with you.
I can’t believe this guy actually believes anything he’s saying. He just has to be doing it for the ‘lulz’ as they say. A troll who just wants a reaction, and jacks off when he gets it.
Without a doubt this Michael Crook is going to be a rapist if he has not already raped.
Just as his religion was created to statisfy a sex addict’s perversionsm …that of course being Joseph Smith … Crook rabidly posted why his victims of rape were/are responsible for his act of sexual violence upon them in his diatribe. His community should be warned and the police should investigate him for what he may have already done.
There is no lack of public record revealing the vast amout of Mormon men convicted of rape & serial rapes as well as the many rapes perpetrated by the ‘Lost Boys’ kicked to the curb by older Mormon men afraid young girls would prefer a younger husband
The Lost Boys and generic Mormons who have been raping women due to their religion, lack of social skills and their religious upbringing which teaches any male in thier ranks can blame their god for putting any idea in their head. Hence, they believe no matter how horrid, damaging or violent the act he wants to perform, it was prompted by what god put in his mind to do.
Which is, of course, anything less than a burqa.
No. He got himself killed in a remarkably stupid manner, too. The competent and successful conmen were his “followers” – like Brigham Young.
Obviously, you’re welcome to disagree with my assessment of the man. I just finished reading “No Man Knows My History” and was facepalming through the whole book; it’s really amazing the arrant bullshit that those yutzes followed. Of course they’d been preconditioned by the rest of christianity, and, if you’ll believe that, you’ll probably believe anything…
I do appreciate that his FIRST statement is that he is a “Conservative” “Republican”.
After I hear someone say that, nothing else need be said, save to confirm what idiocy and horror they approve of.
There is NO excuse for being a “Republican” in America any longer. None. You are admitting you are pigheadedly stupid, asshole-ishly ignorant, flat-out insane, and/or shallowly evil by doing so, and unworthy of anything but opposition until you admit such.
@164
Moggie, you totally rock. Especially after all the questioning about whether or not the guy is a Poe. I salute you.
Once again, I’m amazed at how weak religion apparently makes men’s will. Take Crook and his cohorts (please-take them somewhere far away from decent people…) Apparently, they’re so lacking in self control or self discipline that they can’t so much as look at a woman without being overcome with lust and unable to consider whether their actions are appropriate or not. Compare that to standard behavior at nude beaches in Germany and other (highly atheistic) European countries: A man at an FKK beach is expected to keep control of himself and not only not attack women he finds attractive, but also to keep control of physical expressions of that attraction (i.e. not have or at least not show an erection.) Why is it that (mostly atheistic) German men can look at quite a large number of naked women without becoming rape beasts, indeed without showing their desires in physical ways that might make women uncomfortable whereas Mormon men, apparently, can’t so much as look at an ankle without losing their cognitive function to the point where they “have to” rape someone? Clearly, religion does bad things to one’s self control. Perhaps something so prone to promoting rape should simply be outlawed*?
*Sarcastically meant: Outlawing doesn’t work. Only teaching, reason, and ridicule do.
I know the point of the post is the indescribably revolting evil spewing from Crook’s moouth, but…
I keep going back to the link to the story about Ashley, and I want to weep. That little tsunami of texts was a cry for someone to help her…stop her…give her some reason to think her life was worth living. Poor, poor young girl. So so wretchedly sad.
Exactly my thought. One of these odd spectacles that makes you both disgusted with yourself and satisfied. Especially if the person administrating the beating is him/herself a rape victim.
Michael Crook is a troll. His hobby is writing “outrageous” things to rile people up and make them angry. He’s been working variations on this theme for many, many years. Google him and you’ll see for yourself. His latest POS blog is just another sad attempt to get attention. I don’t know what his supposed “religious re-awakening” is about but based on his scuzzy past my guess would be that he’s just trying to troll a new audience that might not be familiar with him and what he is about. Just a few years ago he spent months attacking the character of a missing 15 year old girl from the Rochester, NY area. he even created a fake Twitter page to make obnoxious “comments” in her name. Just last year he created fake Facebook “tribute” pages in the name of car accident victims just so he could hurt and annoy real friends and family of the victims. Everything about Michael and his alleged “business” (Nightshadow Productions) is a troll. Do not give him the attention he desperately craves.
I’d say that what his “logic” leads to in any functional peaceful society is the permanent internment of all males starting from puberty. Or mandatory castration and heavy medication.
That’s what has to be done with uncontrollable beasts which can’t help themselves hurting people – either you make them peaceful or you keep them away from the public. If somebody cannot be counted on to be responsible for his/her acts, we lock him/her away.
Thank FSM the vast majority of men aren’t the beast he makes them to be.
No, you idiot, which is why your comment was noteworthy in the first place. Apparently you think that a lot of people think that women are perfect, blameless creatures. Not sure whether you endorse that point of view, but you seem to accept it pretty uncritically. It’s completely at odds with the basic feminist idea that women are people. The fact that you leaped straight to accusing me of holding this view of women shows that you’re REALLY not paying attention. Here’s a hint: unless you’re stuck in 1950s gender roles, the assertion that women are capable of doing shitty things is not a groundbreaking, earth-shattering announcement. So what’s you excuse? 1950s, or something else?
Capt. Crook
It looks like you spent a lot of time typing up that post that ends with an idiotic suggestion that’s been countered here already, a few times. The least you could do is try to offer some response to the counterarguments here, rather than just parroting the “don’t feed the trolls” line. Kinda makes you look vapid and lazy.
Point made, but if you want to waste valuable moments of your life debating about anything Michael has to say, may I suggest better ways to spend your time, for example hitting your head on a brick wall over and over. It’ll be every bit as productive.
I just listened today to a Oh No Ross and Carrie podcast where they talked with Brian Keith Dalton (Mr Diety) about why he left the LDS and he mentioned that in one of the last discussions a mentor made a reference to “Virtue” and said that if his wife were raped her virtue would be sullyed. Dalton asked him if he personally believed that and he said no but his wife would think that. Dalton basically said fuck a bunch of old men in ivory towers in Salt Lake City and says he never went back after that.
this type of mindset is sickening to me.
Re the Crook comment @203: Why does Crook have a profile up on mormon.org?
Crook’s “I’m a Mormon” profile:
http://mormon.org/me/6P4K/MichaelCrook/
That doesn’t look like trolling. It looks like the real thing.
Well, that’s the thing. They can of course control themselves and they do control themselves. You don’t hear a lot of stories about some guy raping a woman in broad daylight on a public street, do you? Not a whole lot of guys trying to feel up the female officer holding a nightstick in the middle of the police station, is there?
They clearly can control themselves. They just don’t want to.
That’s why they manage to act half-way decent when they know there’ll be consequences, but the gloves come off the moment they think they can get away with it.
I suspect that’s also why they’re so eager to push both culturally and legislatively for more ways to escape punishment and shift blame to the victim.
It’s not that they’re honest, decent people who fall victim to urges outside their control. Rather, they’re evil, abusive assholes who just don’t want to have to answer for the things they do.
Mormonism isn’t the only religion where that attitude can be found. Check out here, and here.
Victim-blaming FTL.
I guess this jackwagon doesn’t even realize how demeaning his comments are to men as well. Women deserve rape or other forms of sexual abuse b/c of subtle, sometimes innocent or unintentional, cues… after all, we men are just so roaringly fuckin’ horny we can’t contain ourselves and will leap to rape and sexual abuse at the first opportunity. I’m a man who has never once thought that going to town on some woman simply because her skirt is kinda short was a wise idea. I’d venture to say most men around the world would agree. But apparently we don’t matter to this Moron, excuse me, Mormon, b/c real men can’t control themselves. It’s offensive to me.
This isn’t the first time I’ve heard this disgusting view — that a woman who is raped and survives has no actual claim to rape because she must have “given in” (if she’s dead, you know she was innocent!). I’ve heard it a lot online, actually. And every time, after I manage to re-corral my outrage, I find myself seriously wondering what the person making this proclamation would do is they were suddenly attacked by someone who proceeds to beat the living shit out of them.
Would they call the cops? Well DUH.
But what would they tell them? “I allowed this person to beat me senseless, officer, nothing to see here, please move on”? OF COURSE NOT.
And what’s more, I strongly suspect that the people who’ve tried to sell me this bullshit about No True Rape (even the Mormon ones) would demand some form of justice if they themselves were sexually assaulted. Because Bad Things only happen to Bad People, until they happen to you
“Rape is impossible” is a statement made from a position of privilege — either of being male, and therefore far less likely to be raped, or of someone living a sheltered and protected life. If, human decency forbid, a No True Rape-believing person were placed into a situation where said privilege was stripped away — and they either became vulnerable, or realized their vulnerability — their tunes would change very quickly.
This offensive and idiotic idea is the equivalent of “Poor people are poor because they are lazy bastards, and if they receive any assistance from the government, they are lazy bastards sucking at society’s teat.” More “Just Universe” bullshit that’s only considered true until you or someone you love ends up there.
@NitricAcid (186) Thank you. Like happiestsadist said, strange men on the internet have been among the people who’ve helped me to reach a general state of okayness too. And I appreciate the kind thoughts on a day which would otherwise have been entirely coloured by that fuckwit’s douchebaggery.
Interestingly, it would appear that even his fellow brethren are unimpressed by the crap he spouts and he’s updated his blog saying he thinks he’ll be hauled before his bishop and possibly leave the church. I don’t imagine anyone would see that as any sort of a loss. Reading his tweets and other posts, he’s one very sick puppy filled with an enormous amount of hatred for … well, just about anyone who isn’t a white, male LDS member.
I do have one thing to thank Michael Crook for, however. He has crystallised my thinking entirely and from now on there will be no pussyfooting around from me: I’m coming out as an atheist to my friends and family. No way do I want to be associated with religion in any way, shape or form when it leads to such revolting attitudes as his. Perhaps I was naive and accommodationist, but no longer. My eyes have been well and truly opened.
Nemo the Derp, #126, of course blames the mother for the actions of men. Not unsurprising for the same guy who told us “ladies” the other day that some of us are “psychotic” because we don’t immediately drop to our knees and start sucking his dick every time he decides to grace us with the knowledge that his penis likes us.
Isn’t it funny how we never hear the father blamed when the mother is abusing the child? You’d almost think there were some kind of social construct that women and women alone are responsible for children’s welfare…
Ex-mormon Atheist here. While the Mormons are utterly and completely wrong about a great number of things (pretty much everything), this man does not represent their views, nor is the book “The Miracle of Forgiveness” doctrine. I haven’t bothered to read the 200+ comments, so maybe someone already said this.
While I wish the Mormons would disappear off the face off the planet for many, many reasons (Proposition 8 being among them), I’m more interested in facts than stirring up controversy about the Mormon church. There are plenty of reasons to be outraged at the Mormons. In this case, this particular asshole should be the focus of the outrage.
In any case, his behavior is despicable.
JMB, #113: Aside from the fucked-up patriarchal implications of the term “virtue” to mean the condition of a vagina-thing who has not been fucked by anybody but her proper owner, it’s so not your place to decide what rape victims and victims of attempted rape “should” do. If a victim decides that the best strategy is to not fight so as to minimize injury or risk of death, that’s their decision. Not yours to second-guess.
Davem, #194: Fuck you. Scroll up to Happiestsadist’s comment, last paragraph. It’s only 12 comments before yours. Capt. Crook, #203: Fuck you as well. The sort of bile that Crook spouts might not affect YOUR life. It affects mine.
BobTMarley, #217: Thank you for your concern.
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As usual I have read this (and other) thread(s) on feminist topics. As usual I am rendered fucking despondent by all the vitriol, the lies, the hate spewed when all women are asking for is to be treated as people. That’s it. No special privileges. No extra helpings. No ring fences. No claims to being “equal of type” or “not different from men in any way”. Just equal treatment.
How fucking hard is this?
And this young woman….and Mormons….and this guy and his trolling/rape apologetics….
I’m going to bed. I’m lucky, privileged, to be able to do so unmolested and relatively unfettered by all this crap. Beyond the weight it places on what I laughingly refer to as a “soul” (in very inverted commas!).
Louis
Interestingly, my work’s web filter blocks Crook’s site under the category of “sex”. I guess his obsession is pretty obvious to the filtering software.
The logic seems familiar.
“Bring the supposed ‘rape victims’ forward and tie them to the boom. Then lower them into the vat full of water for a few minutes. If they drown, they committed no offense in the act and will go to heaven so that their sullied purity may be restored in glory. If they live, they are obviously shameless tempters who incited the attack and must be given over to Satan; untie them from the boom, tie them to the stake, and toss a lit faggot on the woodpile beneath them.
“Oh, and speaking of ‘the lit’ and ‘faggots’…”
Michael Crook
329 (or 325) Vine Street
Hammonton, NJ
Just next to the Veterans Park.
Phone: (609) 878-8161
Just saying…..
“Adelia”, my dear, you don’t deserve whatever exploit-o-money you’re being paid if you think spamming *this* forum will get your client much business.
What a total asshole. I was 15…was I supposed to continue fighting after I was choked into unconsciousness? If my suicide attempts had succeeded would he have been happy then since I had paid for my crime of not staying conscious and defending my virtue? I can’t even begin to describe how offensive this whole thing is to me…This man doesn’t deserve to be called human.
The point isn’t that this specific vacuum-head needs yelling at, but that the religious writing he points at to justify his assholiness is real and has been followed by a large segment of the current-day American population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencer_W._Kimball
Church doctrine or not, Kimball was President of the LDS Church (funny, I almost typoed it LSD church) until 1985, and his words carried great weight with the membership. Not that a bunch of delusional fanatics have any respectability, but if this particular group of delusional custard-heads want anything even remotely approaching public acceptance, they have to disavow this stuff, and the misogynist attitude that goes with it. So, Willard Mitt Romney, what about it? Speak up, Mitt, we can’t hear you.
I’ve looked this guys site over and I believe “beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt” that it is a fine example of Poe’s Law. As a former Mormon myself, I recognize many of the quotes posted as being from both former and current church leaders… however you’d be hard pressed to find a Mormon who takes this stuff literally. I believe that the blog is simply being used to show the extremism of what some church leaders have said… no one (even the most die-hard Mormon) really believes this shit.
FFS it doesn’t matter
I’m reaching the conclusion that Nemothederv is a yellow-bellied, lickspittle coward. Every time someone challenges him, he just disappears then pops up on another unrelated thread as if nothing ever happened.
Prediction: he never makes it back here to respond to me or Ms. Cutter, but in the next few days he’ll post some throwaway comment on yet another thread, hoping he can continue his hit & run pattern.
It can only work but for so long, Nemothederv. Eventually that shit catches up to you.
I am much, much poorer for having read some of that douchebucket’s blog. I sincerely hope it’s a Poe, if not, this species is doomed.
Ing… I agree the guy is a fucktard… and the quotes from LDS leaders are beyond reprehensible… however, I think the writer is simply showing the extremism of what some church leaders have said by taking their position. I refuse to believe that a sane person could really think that way.
To those who’ve said they hope it’s a Poe or trolling: IMHO it doesn’t matter. He’s caused deep hurt and offence, revulsion and general disgust pretty much all round. Comments on his blog include people saying that it’s made them cry or vomit. This is one of those topics that it’s not OK to joke about or to use for your own ends.
Personally, I’ve spent all day digging around on this guy and whilst he clearly gets off on being deeply offensive, he *is* LDS. I’ve just finished talking to someone who confirmed it for me.
So whether he truly believes this shit is, to me, irrelevant. You just don’t go there. Not with rape. Ever.
@ Erulóra Maikalambe 196
I don’t believe the burqa will solve the underlying problem. It will just up the ante. To a horny religious fanatic, even a woman in a burqua will look sluttish. It is a mugs game. No matter how “modest” women dress, they will still get blamed and “the devil take the hindmost”.
Apropos the above, Prof. Dennett noted that, whereas most western men are inured to the sight of scantily clad women, your average puritanical goddist will get turned on by practically anything. (We are “innoculated” by exposure. The cloistered soul on the other hand is very much “infected” by the same image.)
Well then you’re an idiot who give sane assholes a pass on their cruelty and misogyny, while tarring perfectly nice insane people with the stigma of being bigots, misogynists, and rape apologists.
A Poe? I don’t think so. The guy has used the web to harass people for years. It’s logically impossible for him to be a Poe, because spending years pretending to be a crazy person is crazy.
To be fair to the Mormons themselves it seems he wasn’t a Mormon for most of that time. He apparently rejoined the church recently. It does not seem inconceivable that representatives of the church were unaware of him until PZ posted this.
I think/hope that most Mormons would be disgusted too.
Moggie #164: Ha ha ha ha. The only levity that can be taken from this dreadful episode.
I considered the possibility that the guy was a great long obsessive poe, but it didn’t matter: when he used the death of kid to play games on the internet, he lost all hope of being regarded generously, no matter what his actual position.
He’s a bit of a “stopped clock” kind of guy…
He’s a racist, bigoted, prejudiced, right-wing asshole, but thinks near death experiences are bullshit…
Montresor [?] (re Moggie #164)
Linky for the illiterate (myself in particular).
Mike is a Mormon…today. Tomorrow he might start a brand new “I hate Mormons” blog devoted to “exposing” LDS. Regardless of how devout or sincere he may appear right now, there’s a chance that at any time he’ll go off the deep end again and become devout about something completely different. This topic -a young woman’s abuse and suicide- is right up Michael’s alley. He thrives on the attention he gets from going after young women who die under tragic circumstances. He’s spouted all of this nonsense before, only this time he’s framing his troll in a Mormon context. It only appears “shocking” or “controversial” if you’re new to Mike’s act. Attention is what he wants and when you link to his blog or take him seriously, he wins.
Capt Crook, no matter how many times I read about incidents like this, or about the despicable characters who blame rape victims for getting raped, I still find it shocking and controversial. Pardon me if I don’t find your level of jadedness something to aspire to.
241- no argument, not jaded re: the sentiment behind the words but from where they came from. Michael’s “opinions” are always the same; cheap, predictable, hateful blowhard “shock value” crap designed to generate rage and page hits. Odious as it may be, Mike’s latest “controversial post” is tame by his low standards. He’s been beating his “rape doesn’t exist” drum for attention for many years now. He lives for it.
Mike will be “Mr. LDS” until someone finally notices him and tells him he should tone it down. Then will come the anti-LDS blogs, books and Youtube videos, maybe even a lawsuit where he’ll represent himself. You can absolutely bank on it. Might be a few weeks, might be a few months, maybe even a few years, but you can damn sure bet it will happen. You read it here first.
One has to wonder what the stance of the church would be were the victim to be male. Would he be subject to the same test of “virtue”? What difference would there be, if any, if the attack were of hetro/homosexual origin?
I don’t expect the answers to these question to make any more sense than the other pronouncements of the wack-job grand-poobar, you understand, I just thought I’d pose the question to see what other insane blathering from on high we mortals might be graced with.
One final question, has anyone considered blow-darts and anti-psychotics?
Beware of the Mormon Church – Exposed http://www.squidoo.com/mormon-church
The thing that you seem to be missing, Capt Crook, is that this “rape is a fictional construct” is not an isolated phenomenon. He’s far from the only person to advance this idea, it has widespread currency in our culture, which is why many people say we live in a rape culture.
It’s not going to stop being a rape culture if we just plug our ears and shut our eyes and go “LA LA LA LA LA” every time an advocate of rape culture pops out of the woodwork to advance misogyny and violence against women.
But thanks for attempting to shut us up. It’s not like it doesn’t happen every fucking day.
That’s two diet spam bots I’ve seen on Pharyngula comments today. Can PZ filter on the diet name?
[Off topic]
@Sally Strange You are amazing and I have long enjoyed and marvelled at your dedication in taking on these douches. Thank you for the work you do.
[/off topic]
That said, I fully agree. This is just a variation of (or, if you prefer, the bare bones and at least honest version of) “She must have asked for it/wanted it somehow” which translates directly to “Your only worth lies in your vagina”.
Because everyone knows you’re always able to fight back, AND that that fight will ALWAYS be successful, including if you die. That’s success, amirite? You, as a person, you are literally worth less than your vagina, because it would literally be better for you to die defending your vagina, and it’s time you knew it.
Like I said, at least this one’s honest about it, though that is indeed scant comfort.
[meta]
This is an interesting data point. A post about rape, around 250 comments, and, though there have been a few condescending assumptions and rape-as-punishment fantasies, I haven’t seen any of the usual clutch of MRAs coming in and saying “what about the menz” or “actually, women should avoid flirting and carry a handgun or they bring it on themselves”. Maybe there are some depths they won’t plumb…
[/meta]
“but getting outraged about someone whose sole purpose is to make you outraged will only ensure that they’re emboldened and promoted and will go on to outrage plenty more.”
What a fucking idiot you are.
How lucky of you to either 1) live in a priveledged little life where you never REALLY have to defend yourself against anybody. Let me guess you’re white and male by any chance?
or 2) be such a down troden turd that although you’re in a group that is actively discriminated against, you’ve just given up.
hey, I’m hedging my bets on option 1 though.
Either way FUCK YOU. Some people actually live this shit. Day in day out. I am so fucking sick of asswipes like your stupid self saying women, or any group subject to hate speech such as this, should just shut the fuck up and take it. Shove it fucker. If I ever meet you I will put it there personally myself.
Captain Crook,
Okay, Michael Crook is a professional online asshole. I don’t doubt your description for a second. However he’s still spouting rape apolegetics. This is something that needs to be fought whenever and wherever it appears. You can ignore him all you want. Others have different opinions about what should be done about misogynists. We won’t tell you to shout down Mikey, please don’t tell us that we have to ignore him. As Edmond Burke didn’t say: “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
Please forgive the off topic intrusion…PZ, I can’t find a way to contact you personally about a suggestion for your blog.
Tami,
There is a tab that says about at the top, above the banner. Click there and scroll a bit down, you’ll find contact info there.
Got it…ty Beatrice!!
My second reaction to this post (the first was to marvel at the sheer malevolent misogyny of Michael Crook) was that it wasn’t ok for PZ to attack Mormons in general for the opinion of one particularly dimwitted one. However, I did see relevant quotes from Mormon “prophets”, so it seems these opinions might have traction within the Mormon church.
Then I was reminded of Deuteronomy 22:23-24: “If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.”
Basically this seems to be saying the same thing as Michael Crook. It doesn’t even call it rape if a woman isn’t risking her life by screaming out. Instead it advocates a gruesome death for both perpetrator and victim. So a similar type of insanity to that of Michael Crook is encoded in Christianity in general. A Christian might argue that the law no longer applies, what with the New Testiment and all, but if God provided the inspiration for this text then the values and opinions behind the law should still apply. (Good thing most Christians tend to ignore their own scripture.)
If I believed in satan I’d sacrifice him a goat right now and pray with clinched fist, grit teeth and furrowed brow that Michael Crook get raped by Jerry Sandusky.
@BenSix #20, that was the late great Linda Smith, although she first said it about the relatively harmless Jeffrey Archer…
@mikecline 255
Mike, let me refer you to previous comments made by illuminata and happiestsadist, higher up this thread. I am not able to speak as plainly as them but let me tell you quietly and reasonably: if you knew, if you really knew what the act of being raped actually felt like – not to mention the mental anguish afterwards – I do not believe that you would make such a statement. I do not believe that anybody could and still be considered human.
I am as close to hating Michael Crook as I have ever been in my entire life and I may wish many unpleasant things on him, but never that. Not while I retain a shred of humanity.
I think there are one too many ‘M’s in Mormon.
Third verse same as the first.
mikecline – fuck off with your rape-as-punishment fantasies. When you make THE SAME ARGUEMNT AS THIS DOUCHBAG, you have absolutely no right to pretend your different than him.
Absolute disgusting rubbish. That poor girl was a victim in so many ways, not the least of which being a victim of the church. If church doctrine dictates that a woman is responsible in ANY way for a violent crime like rape or molestation, they propagate the very evil they claim to oppose.
Irony meter is smoking
Capt Crook: I don’t know if you noticed, but Michael Crook is planning to release his second book about Mormonism. Up until yesterday Michael Crook presumably either had a good reputation or no reputation, among other Mormons.
Based on Crook’s frantic and somewhat disorganized blogging yesterday it looks like PZ’s blog post hit a soft spot.
I would hope that someone in Crook’s Mormon community does something. Crook may think he’s a big dog on the web, but you can tell from his Youtube videos that they guy is a feeble little puppy in real life. Someone ought to carry him by his neck skin to the nearest shrink.
No one is trying to “shut anyone up”. To reiterate: writing “outrageous” blog posts about rape and women in general is (part of) Michael’s M.O. He feeds off the negative attention it brings him. Dig into his scuzzy past and you’ll find numerous other incidents that were equally or even more objectionable. It’s just a fact. It’s not to trivialize this incident, or downplay it, or not take the sentiment behind it seriously. I am merely pointing out that outrage and anger is what he’s going for with stuff like this. Reading through these comments will be the highlight of his entire year. Feel free to comment about him, argue with him, write him, hack him, go to his house and egg him if it makes you feel better. But trust me, it will accomplish nothing, debating Mike is like banging your head against a wall, except banging your head against a wall would be more productive than wasting time on him.
Some interesting background on Presidential Candidate Mitt Romney, and his attitudes toward women, and on his having worked to prevent mormon women from having abortions even when pregnancy threatens their lives.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0706/S00066.htm
Excerpt:
This article is followed by an interview with Judity Dushku. Excerpt:
I still see a little confusion about how things work in the Mormon church, so I’ll explain (being an Exmormon atheist) for those that may be curious. If you don’t care, skip the post. I understand that religion has no redeeming value, and that plumbing the intricacies of any given variant is not necessarily interesting.
Basically, the members believe in living prophets (i.e. someone who speaks to God today, and tells the Mormons what he wants). PZ mentions this in his post. The thing is, the living prophet’s power extends to nullifying anything a previous prophet said. Furthermore, his power extends to arbitrarily selecting what things people (or himself) said were (supposedly) inspired by God, and which were just spoken “as a man’s opinion.”
This effectively means the Mormon church has a “living” doctrine. It changes whenever the current prophet wants. It also means you can’t really pin it down. Today it’s one thing, tomorrow another. You can’t say anything is currently the doctrine of the Mormons, unless the current prophet has said it and furthermore said it was inspired by God. Everything else is subject to the current prophet’s revisionist version of history.
If this seems like quite a slick little system to avoid any sort of accountability, you’re right. That’s part of the cleverness of the cult. They can never be proven wrong, because nothing they ever said is considered unassailable doctrine. All the current prophet has to say is “it wasn’t so” and it never was so.
While newer prophets try to avoid stepping on the toes of older prophets (to avoid the appearance of changing), it has often happened in Mormon history. Polygamy was disavowed, blacks were given the priesthood, the last prophet (Hinckley) equivocated on the idea the God was once a man on national TV (Larry King Live), the ordinances done in the Mormon temples have changed, even the Mormon church’s canon (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price etc.) has been subject to numerous revisions, editions, expansions, and deletions over the years. In fact, modification of doctrine is SO common that you would be hard pressed to find any single piece of doctrine that hasn’t been revisited since the Mormon church was founded by Joseph Smith, with the exceptions of God exists and Christ was his son. Of course, the members are taught that the word of God is eternal, his truths everlasting, and the church changes slow enough to not really be noticed by the members, so they think it’s solid.
The Mormon church is still chock-full of misogyny, bigotry, racism, and so on (besides being a false fairy-tale) that it deserves whatever hatred comes its way. I’m in no way defending it. However, I also know of a few people that were excommunicated for rape (one involving a child), so it’s apparent that current Mormon doctrine does not condone it, or say the woman is solely responsible. Crook, believer or not, poe or not, crossed the line. I completely agree with that.
The problem I want to avoid is the same one the religious right has in america, which is to ascribe the actions of people to the church to which they belong. For example, people want to ban Muslims from the country because “every Muslim is a terrorist.”
Is Islam another false belief system? Yes.
Is every Muslim a terrorist? No.
Does Islam teach that it’s good to be a terrorist? I have no idea. I’m not an expert.
Is the “Mormon Mentality” one of thinking raped women deserved it because it’s church doctrine? No. I do happen to know this one, because I was once a paid representative of the Mormons.
False assertions like this lead me to worry about the content of the rest of this blog. I’m not an expert in everything, nor do I expect anyone else to be, but I have come to expect that the content here is generally accurate. While I do cross-check things to assure their validity, the track record here has built up trust in PZ’s judgement. We he writes something I know to be false it lowers that trust, and also provides ammunition to Mormons when I cite him as evidence of why they are wrong about evolution or some other subject. “Look, he got it wrong here. He’s probably wrong on this as well.” I complete and totally understand if PZ does not care about it, and it’s not his job to provide quality material for use against religious wackos (it’s his own blog after all), I’ve actually used his posts for that purpose on several occasions at work. It’s nothing more than an FYI on how PZ’s blog is being used, and how his posts affect that use.
Sorry for the long post, and thanks for the understanding (and the excellent content you do produce PZ, it has been the subject of many discussions with the Mormons at work).
I didn’t think debating Mike is what we were doing here. So if that’s the entirety of your point, then you can stop being so damned concerned about how we choose to spend our own fucking time.
As predicted, the attention has Mike spewing out blog posts like there’s no tomorrow. Exactly what he wants. You’ll see that I am 100% correct about him and his posts. If you want to pretend Michael is a “Mormon” and get all philosophical about his rantings, have fun. He’s not, it’s an act. Best wishes to all, have a great day.
One of my longer, and carefully-composed comments, is being rejected as a “duplicate comment” over and over again. Damn.
So, after multiple tries, I’ve given up on that comment.
In response to the comments about women wearing burkhas and even that all-over covering being insufficient when addressing the “females tempting men” subject, here’s a story that confirms there is no lengths to which patriarchal societies will not go when it comes to blaming women:
http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/saudi-women-with-sexy-eyes-may-be-forced-to-cover-them-up-ncxdc-111711
@Bob 265
Thanks for the post. My family has long since left the LDS Church in the ’30s and ’40s (I was never raised mormon, however my family – mainly Danish immigrants – joined it in the late 19th century and travelled to Utah following after Brigham Young). The church was just like one big self-perpetuating corporation only based on fairytale nonsense and non-arguments of authority. Eventually their descendents thought it was so nuts they severed themselves from it but had a hard time reconciling their ‘need’ for a substitute in terms of spirituality and religion (if only to have a return to that sense of community and belonging they thought they had in the LDS). Fortunately by that point English was firmly their language so branching out in the US was definitely made easier but they’re exodus from the church simply plopped them in a land full of nuttiness. Atheism however was definitely not ok especially back in the 40s and 50s when it was being equated with communism and anything else inherently ‘evil.’ My gransmother in school was told that she ‘needed’ to select a religion and just declare herself protestant if she couldnt decide on one. Even growing up we were compelled to find a church we could tolerate (eventually me and my siblings said nuts to the whole concept of christianity as we learned more about it and accepted rationalism to be far more satisfying). I can’t stand mormonism but I do admit there are worse Christian sects – the Southern Baptists actually tended to annoy me even more than all the mormons who flocked to the UW campus everyday while I was attentding.
Sorry for the long post, just wanted to get that off my chest.
And…?
And you’ll see me not giving a fuck. Your shit has been addressed before. Your refusal to deal with it makes you a troll.
You continue to miss the point. No surprise, because only really dense people come to Pharyngula with the “don’t feed the trolls” schtick.
Captain Crook, we understand that Mike Crook is an internet asshole.
Your concern is noted.
PZ Myers says:
16 November 2011 at 10:31 pm
Besides, even if he is troll and a griefer (i.e. going out of his way to upset or enrage people), that doesn’t necessarily mean he doesn’t also believe it.
Erulóra Maikalambe: I see the point, it’s right under your hair.
Actually, Michael is the internet’s asshole, but why get bogged down in semantics?
As far as I can tell, he’s a professional troll. I feel guilty for having given him even one more page hit.
Except you. Over and over, you tell us to stop talking about this. Stop saying the things we’re saying.
If that’s not telling us to shut up, then I don’t know what is.
People who’ve met me will notice the glaring error with this.
Augusta,
Michael Crook doesn’t feel sympathy or understand empathy, so how else to educate him? He’s one of those self-rightious , self-ccentered, deluded morons who will only get something when it’s about them or has actually happened to them.
Rev. Chimp,
Irony? Yes, think Hitler in Little Nicky.
That sound you hear way up in the sky is the point sailing far over your head.
And little Nicky? Really?
Horrible fucking movie
Just saying… its not that difficult to completely disable some one without killing them… and then proceed to rape them.
BobTMarley,
I’m a bit late with this, but nobody else has mentioned it. I wanted to highlight one of the more pernicious aspects of growing up Mormon and of their thought-processes. Take a look at what you wrote. I’ve bolded a key word.
The Elders, at least when I was a member, were quite fond of telling us that you could “tell the seed by the fruit”. This seemed quite reasonable to them when justifying why people deserved the bad things that happened to them. It seems only fair to apply the same standard: the seed of Mormonism is rape and pedophilia. You can tell this by its fruit.
Out of curiosity, were those excommunicated for rape sent to prison? Because the Mormons have had a policy, at least since I’ve been alive, of excommunicating anyone convicted of a felony. The stated rationale is that this prevents them from “sinning further” by not fulfilling their church duties, because those would be “sins of omission”. The Mormons disapprove of going to prison more strongly than of rape, in my personal experience.
http://www.michaelcrook.org/2011/11/12/hey-jen-my-sex-life-is-just-fine/
His views on sex are rather bizarre. The only permissible form of sex is man-on-top intercourse in bed, with only occasional woman-on-top intercourse. No oral sex or anal sex or other such acts.
All because Mormon Church leaders say so.
Don’t like getting mugged?
Well then maybe you shouldn’t be GOING OUTSIDE
Ipetrich, could you give a summary for those of us who aren’t up to reading more of his vileness right now?
It must be comforting for Michael Crook and the others like him to have a little book that tells them how to do everything.
@Miki Z
Only in the case where the victim was a minor was the person sent to prison. In the other case I’m familiar with there was never a conviction against the guy, but there were enough girls in the Mormon church complaining about him that I think the leaders felt they had to do something or else some powerful people would be upset. Truth be told, I don’t know whether he actually did rape anyone, but I do know that several girls brought allegations against him and he was excommunicated for it. In other words, it’s still possible to excommunicated for crimes (or things perceived by Mormons as sinful, like adultery) without an actual conviction.
When I left the church it was still policy to excommunicate anyone with a felony. While I have no doubt that some felt the reason was so that “they do commit sins of omission,” most leaders now say it’s because the person was so bad that they need to go through the repentance process to get readmitted to the church. It’s a subtle change, but one that admits the guilt of a rapist, rather than placing the blame squarely on the victim.
I agree that the teachings of Mormonism are unhealthy and probably lead people to justify things like rape, but there’s a difference between saying “the Mormon Church teaches that victims cause and deserve rape” and “Mormon doctrine is degrading towards women, probably causing some men to justify rape.” One statement is false. The other is true of nearly every Christian religion, so a fault of (at least Christian) religion in general, and not specifically of the Mormon church.
Many Mormons have a hard time differentiating between deserving an action, and perhaps causing it. Let’s say, for the sake of argument (I don’t know if this is true or not, but just got with it for a second), that an attractive women in a skimpy outfit WAS more likely to get raped. Even if that were true, it doesn’t mean she DESERVED it. Just because her actions in fact (and by in fact I mean statistically) raise the probability of getting raped, that in no way, shape, or form absolves the perpetrators of the crime of their actions. They are still fully responsible for them. Mormons can’t tell the difference. If you accidentally left your car unlocked, and you get robbed, many Mormons will say “you deserved it.” The church itself doesn’t teach that, but many of the members make the leap from “O be wise, what can I say more?” (A Book of Mormon verse) to “you deserve everything that comes your way.” Since they think this way, a women who may have somehow raised the probability of being raped deserved it.
A few months ago a friend going through a really tough time posted a suicide note in his forum blog. We were horrified, and those few of us on-line at the time spent the entire night dredging up every minute reference to where he might live and work that he had ever slipped, and after several awful hours managed to get him on his cellphone even as all the drugs in his system were taking effect, and get enough information on his then-current whereabouts to get the cops there in time. Perhaps only one of us was even on the same continent as him. He’s doing well now.
No, I didn’t have a legal obligation to do anything to help some guy on the other side of the world who I’ve never met. But I felt this peculiar moral obligation to take whatever action I could think of to save a life, and hey presto, our collaborations had the desired effect. A man lives now who might otherwise not. This Michael Crook creature would have happily left him to die? I would not even leave Crook to die, even though doing so would apparently make the world a better place.
This genuinely ruined my day.
GTMoogle says:
“Sounds to me like he has no defense against a good beating, since he clearly is bringing it on with his incendiary behavior.”
I more or less agree, but I don’t want to get too gruesome on you beautiful people.
Hey PZ,
Can you remember to put trigger warnings on posts like these? I’d hate to find out that someone who had been raped had had flashbacks as a result of this post.
@Raphael, here goes:
Michael Crook sums up Mormon teaching as:
* The missionary position is preferred, but woman-on-top can be acceptable on an occasional basis. No other position is acceptable.
* Foreplay in odd areas, such as the shower, are acceptable, but the actual sex act should be limited to the bed.
* Vaginal sex is the only acceptable way to go. These perversions called oral sex and anal sex are abominations.
* “Dirty talk” is out.
No mention of masturbation, but that’s also a no-no in Mormonism.
He argues “Essentially, our Heavenly Father meant for sexual contact to occur in one part of our bodies. That’s why our bodies are built that way, you know.”
He quotes approvingly a letter signed by some Mormon leaders that states that “The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice. If a person is engaged in a practice which troubles him enough to ask about it, he should discontinue it.
LDS Marriage and Family Relations student manual; ‘The Gospel Perspective on Morality’ (pg. 240)”
Mormon leaders like Spencer Kimball, N. Eldon Tanner, Marion G. Romney, and Gordon B. Hinckley.
There are more warnings against “unnatural” sex in that blog entry.
@288 Rebecca,
Thank you. Trigger warnings should be part of any post like this. Sexual assault/abuse survivors (and any abuse survivors, for that matter) would likely appreciate knowing which posts to avoid. Here’s a website that deals with trigger warnings…
http://fuckyeahtriggerwarnings.tumblr.com/post/4595102317/please-use-trigger-warnings-for-rape-culture@
I am very Mormon and this is NOT representative of the church’s teachings. That guy is probably mentally ill.
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I can’t compose a clever reply right now because I am having a Margaret Atwood moment — a specific form of panic attack in response to anyone who advocates the subjugation of women.
Right now I have to:
1. Projectile vomit.
2. Find the chlorhexidine diacetate so I can clean my hard-drive, the bathroom. and maybe also wash my eyes.
3. Make a pot of strong tea and take a valium.
4. Maybe have a shot of Laphroaig.
5. Find a 3-foot piece of rebar
6. Find this asshole
7. Apply rebar vigorously to his genitalia.
8. Impale him.
9. Go home and have a nice dinner of leftover turkey, having done my good deed for the day.