The persecution complex runs deep. Here’s another another example of laughable letter to the editor, complaining about a story that referred to “wafers and wine”:
…the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t now, nor has it ever offered a wafer and wine as Communion. We do offer the body and blood of Jesus Christ, which in John’s gospel he proclaims to be our source of life in Him. To refer to the Eucharist as a wafer and wine is to demean the value of this sacrament, seemingly equating it to an evening snack.
I suggest that Mr. Kush apologize for his lack of respect to Bishop Reilly and the faith of the Roman Catholic Church.
Shall newspapers take this complaint to heart and henceforth refer to communion as a cannibal orgy of consumption of an imaginary dead god’s flesh and blood? That would at least spell out their beliefs.
I think I’ll stick to calling it just a cracker, though.
PZ, you are wrong. It’s not “just a cracker,” but instead it’s “a boring, tasteless, uninspiring cracker.”
…equating it to an evening snack.
Actually, if a church uses shitty little wafers, it’s not even that. Seriously, is Jesus really made of crispy foam?
How can you reduce a value to below zero? Well, I guess on the “adventure scale” referring to it as anything other than a legal and Papacy sanctioned chance to try cannibalism reduces its value….
It’s odd how they insist everyone follow their odd beliefs.
But wouldn’t it be correct to insist that the wine be referred to as “Jesus juice?”
Michael Jackson would think so.
And the newspaper bothered to print this garbage? Why?
A passable substitute for tortilla chips – needs a good strong sauce, though.
If I wanted to risk getting lynched I’d go to a Catholic church and smuggle in a can of Easy-Cheese to put on it.
You’ve obviously not picked up a newspaper recently.
The correct terminology is “a frackin’ cracker and Goofy Grapejuice” for the before, and “a cannibal orgy of consumption of an imaginary dead god’s flesh and blood” for the after.
The whole communion thing is so bizarre I can’t understand how so many people actually claim to believe it with a straight face.
Now if they said this is symbolic, this represents the body and blood of Christ, I could completely understand that but transubstantiation is so kooky that i’m embarrassed for the Catholics in my family.
We do offer small bits of human flesh and small amounts of blood from a dead Jewish guy….
Well, OK. I suppose claiming to be cannibals is seen as a positive as long as it is done for religious reasons. Why they want the media to go out of their way to advertise this is beyond me. Are there that many people who are wannabe cannibals but just haven’t found like minded people so they can have group activities? Haven’t they heard of the internet?
transubstantiation, don’tcha know.
These people can take their holy nacho and salsa and shove it.
i can never seem to get my metaphor detector calibrated properly
I quoted this letter in the previous hypersensitive Catholic thread, without linking to it. The comments thread there is somewhat amusing and ongoing, but you must register to add to it.
This Jesus fellow must have been a bit of a porker. Enough flesh and blood to fed 1 billion cath-tards each week?
I’m offended that this would ever be equated to an evening snack. It’s an insult to real snacks everywhere.
I looked up wafer:
“a thin disk of unleavened bread, used in the Eucharist, as in the Roman Catholic Church.”
If we can’t use “secular” words to describe physical objects anymore, then I will start get insulted whenever anyone refer to it as “penis”, when in truth and mypersonalmadeupfaith it is the “Holiest of the Heavenly Rods,” which is what everyone should always refer to it as.
Can someone explain to me what the “value” of this “sacrament” is? Or any sacrament for that matter. How do these people get this stupid?
So the RCC and its cult members have no problem labeling my partner, myself, and our relationship of a dozen years as intrinsically disordered. However they get all butt-hurt when their tasteless jeez-it gets labeled as such?
i think i need another tee-shirt.
CRACKERGATE PART DEUX!!!
Seriously though, isn’t time to do something bold like that again, PZ? Nothing extraordinary enough coming your way as of late?
I miss the Cracker-Gate days of yore here on Pharyngula. Buffoonish trolls and sad religiots stalking you for desecrating the bland, circular piece of frail cardboard they call their god. Definitely showed their true colors, and it was immensely entertaining to read their pitiful attempts at moral outrage. The time is now! Ideas?
“I think I’ll stick to calling it just a cracker, though.”
Which cracker – the wafer, or the author?
Not only are the afflicted two dimensional…some would suggest one dimensional…in their analysis of the origins of life…they are totally at sea when it comes to their own particular delusion…not so much dimensional more transcendent!
I would have thought they would have more things to say about Atheists and secularists being sub-human…but no…they prefer to squawk righteously about a ritual which is quite disgusting in its meaning and only pertains to their sick idea of reality…
They are seriously challenged with relevance for sure….mind you ‘seriously challenged’…I will leave it at that!
Transubstantiation made no sense even when I was a christian. Obviously Jesus was making up a metaphor, not saying that the bread was literally his body. These people can’t even seem to understand their own messiah most of the time.
I suggest that LaPalme apologize for his lack of respect to my baguette and Manchego cheese.
Oddly enough, my blog was about the eucharist this week as well. If anyone is interested in the ramblings of a recently deconverted Christian.
Mr. Rosewater Presents
How about an evening out in Pittsburgh?
Upcoming Event: Grill the ID Scientist, 9 June 2009, University of Pittsburgh
If they can transform (transsubstantiate, spelling?) a piece of bread into flesh and wine into blood, does it really matter what they use to begin will. Shouldn’t they be able to use some dead dog epidermis and some human urine. I mean, after all, once blessed its not what it once was. Call it a test of faith. Do you truly believe this gross shit is really what we say it is?
Spirituality, crackers, nazis, sacrament, gangsters, catholics… this branch has got it all.
http://svtplay.se/v/1426080/uppdrag_granskning/sspx_-_english_version
Must.resist.recipe.post.
What could that possibly mean?
And by swallowing the zombie’s flesh and blood once a week isn’t he more likely to be living in them?
Sven just got my tickets for next Saturday in Raleigh. Mid ice 2 rows back. Not cheap but should be worth it.
Care to make a small wager on the series?
I could be wrong, never having been Catholic, but I would think that the RCC does consider the wafer and wine to be wafer and wine. Just not “in substance,” whatever the hell that means.
Sort of like Jesus begin wholly human and wholly divine, except that in the “more important sense” the wafer and wine are Christ’s flesh and blood, and in the “less important sense,” they’re wheat products and fermented juice.
Again, this is just a tentative assessment. My suspicion, however, is that the letter writer is technically wrong, although he’d probably be given a pass on the “more important” thrust of his missive.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
This is a letter from someone who insists that the Catholic Church practices ritual cannibalism, and in fact would like to make that abundantly clear that they do in fact devour their god frequently.
“Apologize to the faith of the Catholic Church.”
While you’re at it, you may wish to apologize to my opinion that avocados are delicious. It was offended when you did not finish your guacamole a week ago last Wednesday.
Also, you once expressed the sentiment that Portland, Oregon, was a pleasant place to be. The belief that Portland is actually a reality TV show, while not actually held by anyone, was rather put out, so perhaps an apology is due there, too.
I and my friend at school always referred to the communion stuff as “booze and biccies” Better alliteration than “wafers and wine”
NickG
Genius :)
Pretty fun…as I may have mentioned, my folks moved a few years back from Pittsburgh to Raleigh, and my dad’s a loooongtime hockey fan. He’s pretty stoked, though I dion’t know if he got tix.
Pens in 7, you read it here first. I’m not a gambler, though.
Rev. BigDumbChimp
I want some of that action!
Glenn D: “…on the … thrust of his missive.”
Stop it, you’re turning me on!
Me either but I’ll dip my toe in the pool.
oky dokey
“our source of life in Him.”
Parasite?
Whatever they are, those things are not crackers.
These are crackers:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5Ke3J9HRTkI/RddRapE91PI/AAAAAAAAACA/813frm_65sY/s400/icebox+crackers+015.jpg
These are wafers:
http://www.sugarshowcase.com/Cookies/CreamWafers.jpg
These are industrial plastic discs:
http://www.clockparts.co.uk/shapes5.jpg
Draw your own conclusions people…
It actually shows how little attention people pay to what’s going on in church. The priest’s actual words are, “becomes for us the body…” (emphasis added) and the official description does say representation, but it’s pronounced re-presentation. However, recognition of the metaphor died long ago, even (or especially) for the most educated theologians.
When are the religiots going to realize they can’t make other people treat their nonsensical beliefs like they are normal. At some point we do get to say “No. You are wrong.”
Its why the fundies hate atheists so much. Their fellow religionists, even those of different faiths, have an unspoken agreement not to call each other out on the silliness. Atheism or a failure to use their assumptive nomenclature is threatening to their credulity.
@18
“Holiest of the Heavenly Rods,”
All groupies must bow down
In the sacred presence of the Latex Holy Beef
Henceforth the RCC shall be known as:
The Church of Zombie believing Vampire Cannibals.
or variations on the theme.
“We do offer the body and blood of Jesus Christ.”
Yum-yum.
They’ve been doing this for two thousand years?
They must be carving the slices paper thin!
Why must we continue to refer to some invisible, non-existent entity with capitalized pro-nouns? Who cares if some idiots feel that the grammatical rules are inherently stable.
I just now – just this MINUTE – heard on my local NPR station – a guest Rabbi at a catholic church – his words exactly:
“… while waiting to RECEIVE THE WAFER AND THE WINE…”
Amazing.
JC
Glen,
As an apostate Catholic I can vouch for the accuracy of the letter writer’s statement. The RCC does, in fact, teach the little kiddies that it’s a meaningless cracker and fermented grape juice until Father Bumtickler says the magic words. After the magic spell is finished you can commence with cannibalism. It is supposed to be in every way the actual flesh of Jesus. That is why so many of them get so upset over things like crackergate. I will say, however that many Catholics aren’t aware of the official RCC doctrine. My Catholic family thinks I’m being unfair when I quote http://www.Vatican.va for what the Pope says they are supposed to believe.
This reminds me of my Lutheran (read: Catholicism lite) background from which I was instructed that “no, no, transubstantiation is wrong” (false doctrine) but that indeed I did receive the True Body and True Blood of Jesus (c) “in, with, and under” the bread and wine. How that could occur was attributed to “spiritual mystery” a.k.a. “paradox”. Now I’m convinced that Lutherans are basically Catholics that want to have their cake and eat it too.
I was sort of ambivalent about the whole Crackergate thing, at the time — it seemed an unnecessary discourtesy (and in civil society, courtesy does count for something), but things like this letter cause me to take a harder line. Sects and their members are welcome to invest their ritual objects with as much sacred significance as they like, and on the whole they should be left alone to do so — but as soon as they insist that the rest of the world (like the legal system, or the secular press) must kowtow to their private meanings, they should be told in no uncertain terms: Nope, ain’t gonna happen. Your rules, and your meanings, end at the church door.
As far as the rest of us (and “us” here includes a pretty large fraction of Christianity as well) are concerned, it’s just wafers and wine. Deal with it.
Hey isn’t the communion wafer made of wheat? Isn’t wheat a cereal?
Well guess what? Seems God hates Cereal eaters and Cereal eating enablers
Maybe we could sic this guy on the Catliks
I’m on board, just as soon as the Pope sincerely refers to the Dalai Lama as the latest rebirthed incarnation of the bodhisattva Avalokitesvara.
CalGeorge:
I think that it is “wafer-thin” – cue the barfing.
Two words: Corpus Crispies!
(Tempted to say “Christ Crispies: Snap, Crackle, Bleed”. But that would just be tasteless. Ha.)
Oh, and as long as we’re respecting the beliefs of everyone involved, I’d like the newspaper to apologise to all the non-Catholics for referring to the RCC as the Roman Catholic Church, rather than Syndicate for the Protection and Support of Child Molesters.
There’s a fuckuva lot more evidence for the organisation being the latter than there is for transubstantiation.
Hey isn’t the communion wafer made of wheat? Isn’t wheat a cereal?
Well guess what? Seems God hates Cereal eaters and Cereal eating enablers
Maybe we could sic this guy on the Catliks
I can’t help wondering: is there a better way to dispel false beliefs than ridiculing and disparaging the holders of such beliefs on this web site….PZ included?
You all level hard against people holding an ignorant faith as if their lack of rationality is a sin against nature itself….rather than their lack of rationality being a display of nature in action…the natural result of a brain not yet fully developed(and perhaps never will given the exigencies of time itself).
As an ex Catholic and now firm non-believer, I take exception to the ridicule I read on these pages…not because I disagree about what you write, but how you express it.
The world will not “see the light” of rational behaviour if we posit it against all contrary beliefs. That will only raise more shackles and cause people of “faith” to retrieve behind walls of even more ignorance.
We need to argue, to teach, to educate more on WHY people believe as they do rather than the WHAT of their beliefs. WHY is our brain so wired that it is capable of so much irrationality??
Some minor context for my post (in haste) above (#50)
The Rabbi was Rabbi Dan Ornstein of Albany, NY Congregation Ohav Shalom. The context was a short commentary on WAMC/Midday Magazine (I cannot yet find the commentary posted) concerning a friend – apparently a Catholic priest – inviting him to give a sermon at the friend’s church.
The statement (“… waiting to receive the wafer and the wine…” was made in regards to this Rabbi observing a boy and his brother (hey… keep it clean ;-) waiting in line to receive same.
BTW: Before jumping all over this guy (not that I know why anyone should), I note that he – and his group and lots of other clergy in the area – have signed (at least last year) petitions to legalise Gay Marriage in NY (coming real soon now!) – so he apparently has a FEW brain cells firing.
JC
mmhhh.. not shure about craker….
It is too thin.. it looks more like a little “tostada” of wheat flour.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tostada
Technically… it is should be unleavened bread… but it really does not look or taste like bread…
It´s so thin, that it disolves as soon as it contacts the saliva, (no.. it has no bones.. and taste a little sweet not salty) if you are not carefull. It will get stuck in your palate…
It is very hard to look serius, while you try to disguise you are putting your finger in your mouth, to get it from there…
(i was twelve… but i still remember that…)
My teacher of “doctrina” told us a tale about on guy who step on one, an it bleed. I was very curious about that, but i though it was not apropiated to ask her to do the experiment. Fortunatelly we have a scientist here who do it for me.
How about an evening out in Pittsburgh?
Upcoming Event: Grill the ID Scientist, 9 June 2009, University of Pittsburgh
This actually sounds like a really, really good time. Especially being able to go head to head with the likes of Behe. Is anyone going to this??
I can’t think of a more apt name for them than ‘crackers’. Can you?
@paul kussmann:
I agree, but it’s hard not to respond angrily and with much vituperation when we see that these individuals’ beliefs are not harmless, but actively cause them to go out and harm others.
Well, for example, we’re evolutionarily predisposed to make Type I statistical errors, likely because you’ll live longer if you see lions where there aren’t any that if you don’t see lions where they do exist.
The study of how and why we’re irrational is still relatively young, but try Michael Shermer’s Why People Believe Weird Things. For more mathematical and economic treatments, read his The Mind of the Market: How Biology and Psychology Shape Our Economic Lives, or for a slightly different take, Peter Ubel’s Free Market Madness.
Nonetheless, even HG Wells predicted that by the end of the twentieth century, statistical literacy would be as indispensible as reading, writing, and ‘rithmatic, but as is plainly seen, our education system has a far way to go (in many ways because of the interference of the very individuals of which we’re speaking, so, like Catch-22 and all that.)
frackin cannabis.
frackin spell checker.
is there a better way to dispel false beliefs than ridiculing and disparaging the holders of such beliefs on this web site….PZ included?
There are all sorts of ways to dispel false beliefs. I’m working hard to avoid teaching false beliefs to my children. We must be vigilant to make sure public schools are not employed to propagate false beliefs. Ridicule is part of a complete strategy. Mockery and scorn and derision is quite often appropriate. Look up The Overton Window. I’m not going to refrain from mocking people for their views opposing gay marriage, any more than people should expect their views in support of miscegenation to remain unchallenged.
Seriously, shouldn’t the church post all the nutritional info about these wafers? I think they need to smear some strawberry jam on them, or maybe some cheese.
And how about a giant parental warning sign about violent and cruel depictions of a guy being tortured and crucified, to protect the kids from these images? Just like they do for movies and games?
r.
Being in possession of human remains must be at least a misdemeanour in most countries. Might make for an interesting little legal conundrum if you were to get the local police interested in the fact that human remains are being dished out every Sunday at the neighbourhood RCC, who out of loyalty to their own dogma couldn’t disagree with you. Maybe we could even get someone done for JC’s murder.
Actually no, that would give the fundies hope for another 2000 years……
Its a cracker and squished grapes.
I wonder if they washed their feet before stomping the fruit.
Schmeer @ #51 “I will say, however that many Catholics aren’t aware of the official RCC doctrine”
I’ll go further than that. It’s not even taught to the little kiddies like that everywhere. I went to an RC school in the UK in the 80’s. Whenever we really pushed the teachers or priests on this issue – or issues like Adam/Eve – they usually fell back to the position of ‘umm, metaphor’.
We were a particularly scientifically interested and cruel class, but not unusual for the place or time. I’d guess that I and half of my classmates probably ended up atheists due to the quality teaching, rather than despite it.
Now Paul. You are not going to have much fun here with THAT attitude. Ridicule is… what we DO.
Well… some of us anyway.
JC
#44: You’re confusing your sects. “Becomes for us the body” is from the Anglican/Episcopal liturgy. RC dogma hinges on the doctrine of the *literal* transubstantiation of the Jeez-It and Snapple to the body’n’blood o’ X.
I like to refer to them as Jesusblood and Christmeat. The terms are misleading, of course, but then we’re talking about religion here – Christianity, yet – Catholicism, even.
Then why do some people with particular allergies require a gluten free cracker? Excuse me, a gluton free body of Christ.
If you call a dog’s tail a leg, how many legs does it have? Four. Because calling the tail a leg doesn’t make it one. Nor does calling a cracker and wine flesh and blood make them so.
“We do offer the body and blood of Jesus Christ, which in John’s gospel he proclaims to be our source of life in Him”
Cannibalism, at its finest.
Yes it does matter. Because the priest has no “magical” power, what he is doing is recreating the original miracle when Jesus transformed bread and wine into his flesh and blood. The bible quotes him saying “Do this in remembrance of me”. No substitutions allowed, it has to be bread, it has to be wine.
Having been dragged through Catholicism during childhood, I really cannot get behind calling it a cracker. It is not dry enough and does not “crack”, like a cracker should. Neither is it really like anything else I have ever had. It really is just a piece of “paper” made out of wheat flour instead of wood pulp. And no, it does not dissolve instantly on the tongue and you are not allowed to chew it, making for a generally unpleasant experience over all.
Dano,
I had a similar experience with my Catholic High School in the 90’s. There was even a priest who taught my Bioethics class that “If you’re going to “do it”, then that prohibition on birth control doesn’t apply to teenagers.” However, the very angry nun that prepared me at age 7 for 1st communion did not like the repeated questions if it was REALLY Jesus’ body we were going to eat. Yes it is! No, it isn’t supposed to taste like skin!
GregB @75; I never thought of that, you win.
Interestingly, though they always cite John on “the bread of life” (associated with the feeding of the multitude), that gospel is the only canonical one that doesn’t have a “do this in rememberance of me” Last Supper scene with Jesus and the disciples on the eve of the crucifixion. Innstead, Jesus washes the disciples’ feet.
Accepting for the sake of argument that you’re going to have a religion based on the teachings of this fellow Jesus, and attribute to him some kind of divine status, why do we even bother having — or opposing — a doctrine of transubstantiation? Why isn’t it sufficient that the Founder told us to perform this ceremony, and so we do? While there may not be any particular reason we can figure out for doing it, there’s nothing wrong with doing it, it’s a pleasant, harmless ceremony, and the Founder wants us to do it. Seems like justification enough. Does anyone have any idea why some people thought it necessary to make more complicated stuff up and then argue about it even though there was no ascertainable truth of the matter?
Does anyone have any idea why some people thought it necessary to make more complicated stuff up
Well, the whole business is made up; perhaps like a 9-year-old telling lies, they just didn’t know when to quit.
#82: there are some foot-washing Baptists, in addition
to the more notorious snake-handling Baptists. If you
are going to perform some ritual act in ‘remembrance of
me’, eating the cracker & sipping some juice seems to be
the least offensive of the various things the disciples
& apostles reportedly did.
Does anyone have any idea why some people thought it necessary to make more complicated stuff up and then argue about it even though there was no ascertainable truth of the matter?
Where there is no ascertainable truth, the religious are compelled to ascertain it by inventing one.
He’s not the messiah, he’s a very naughty boy.
anonimous @ #79
mmhh.. maybe in the US use a diferent recipe…
several times i had it stick to my palate… ;)
You have no respect for other people’s religion. Some one ought to shove a dildo up your ass.
Like Rev. Gary Aldridge? Nah, that’s another religious custom for which we have no respect.
Yo momma, your have no respect either, but we have found that to be true of all godbots. You have to give respect to get respect, and you fail in the first every time, since you demand your religion gets respected without having to respect others. We have a word to describe that. Hypocrite.
paul kussman #60 wrote:
One can accept that irrational habits of thought are inherent in how the human brain works and yet, at the same time, try to change people’s minds (and grant them the respect to see them as people who are capable of doing so.) Rational habits of thought don’t come as easily as sloppy intuitions and cultural indoctrination, perhaps, but they’re also ‘nature in action.’ In theory, Catholics value reason, same as atheists do — and that is common ground to build on.
As an analogy, consider our natural human tendencies towards violence. Studying how and why people engage in crime and war doesn’t preclude trying to improve the situation. It also helps us avoid thinking of violent people as intractable, and “evil.”
I think that you are wrong to think that there is only one “right way” to change people’s minds. Religion as an area of thought should be no different than politics, in that rational arguments are not necessarily negated by a healthy dose of ridicule and satire — and ridicule and satire help to ensure that no area becomes too “sacred” to address with honesty.
It could be that part of the reason the person who wrote the letter is over-reacting to a perfectly neutral and objective description of Catholic practice is that she has been sadly sheltered, and hasn’t been exposed enough to genuine disrespect. The poor thing can’t tell the difference between what is secular, and what is anti-religious. If she were fortunate enough to come onto this blog and read comments, however, we could enlighten her, and she would then be appropriately grateful to the reporter for remaining what is now revealed as, refreshingly neutral.
Any little thing counts, when it comes to helping others…
What have religions done to deserve respect?
@Dildo-lover
Why does your mind-rotting religion deserve respect? Is that ass play an integral part of your religion? I thought in Catholics it was a divine right that on the priests get to play with the butt.
yo momma #89 wrote:
Sorry: you’re not a regular, so we can’t tell if you mean that in a positive way, or not.
You have no respect for other people’s religion.
You’re right, I don’t, none at all.
What’s to respect? A bunch of made-up shit that tends to make people do nasty stuff? That Islamist who blew himself up last week? Religion made him do it.
Now be nice and keep your dildo in your bedroom where it belongs.
Many of you may already have noted it, but it just occurred to me that someone who believes the transubstantiation nonsense could not be a vegetarian. Enlighten me, are there no rcc vegetarians?
Check out the comments section of the original article. Someone just claimed to have witnessed an 11 year old kid’s ear bones miraculously regenerating after prayer.
ROFL
“Now be nice and keep your dildo in your mouth where it belongs.”
Fixed.
atomjack
Every writer needs an editor…
LOL
Rev@9,
Has anybody?
Yep, just this morning. Gotta have something to look while munching breakfast that doesn’t take much continuous attention, and isn’t noisy.
Re: 63
“How about an evening out in Pittsburgh?
Upcoming Event: Grill the ID Scientist, 9 June 2009, University of Pittsburgh
This actually sounds like a really, really good time. Especially being able to go head to head with the likes of Behe. Is anyone going to this??”
I am not a real scientist, but I do work at Pitt. I’ve forwarded the link to my friends at CFI Pittsburgh, as well as to a friend at the Carnegie Science Center, a friend with CMU’s “Atheists, Humanists and Agnostics”, and some U of Pitt students who are organizing a Pitt skeptical group.Hopefully there will be a good turnout among them. It would be nice if a scientific event has some real science involved.
It’s not only a cracker, but a FRACKING CRACKER!
When I was in Sunday school, I was told by the teacher that you’re not supposed to chew the cracker, and that if you did, you would bleed from the mouth forever.
@Chris Clarke–you are right about the doctrine, i.e., that the RCC believes in transubstantiation, which leaves just the “accidents” (physical properties) of the bread and wine. The accidents lead us science-types to believe that it is still bread and wine.
Nevertheless, the words I quoted are accurate (attend a Catholic mass and listen closely during the consecration, and then read the missal). Their interpretation of the words, however, is different, just as a flat-earther interprets the term “sunrise” differently than we do.
It’s not only a cracker, but a FRACKING CRACKER!
I’m not so sure if I would necessarily call them crackers. They sure don’t seem like crackers to me.
This is gravel:
http://www.chesshirstone.com/images/materials_images/materials_gravel_apache_pea.jpg
This is plywood:
http://www.vgtrading.com.ar/_images/products/12-EucalyptusGrandis-Plywood-Phenolic-CCyBC-10y18mm-High.jpg
I’m not saying they taste like gravel, or that they have the texture of plywood. Not at all. I’m not sure what they are. But they are not crackers.
That particular blend of gravel looks delicious, I’d take it over a cracker any day.
That’s funny, even the catlicks call it wine and wafers; that sensitive catlick must belong to a special cult – or else it’s really a hell-bound protestant having some fun writing letters pretending to be catlick. If we go back, oh, 50 years, Tom Lehrer was singing: “.. If you do, try playing it safer. Drink the wine and chew the wafer.” Lehrer did get things a bit wrong though – you’re not supposed to chew the wafer; you’re supposed to scoff down your godbits. Maybe they believe not chewing makes you not a cannibal – or the priests just tell everyone not to chew as some sort of joke because they want to see how many people take them seriously and choke.
I believe that Catholic doctrine is that nothing visible, or detectable, even at the molecular level, of the wafer and wine changes, but that it ‘really’ becomes the body and blood. This mainly raises the question of what ‘really’ really means. Under this doctrine, the idea of damaged wafers ‘bleeding’ is absurd. Under certain conditions of temperature and humidity, a red mold will grow on bread. I have seen examples of this. in the middle ages, and maybe later, if such mold appeared of communion wafers, it was suppose that Jews had broken into the church and ‘torturing’ the host with pins and pincers. Jews were slaughtered because of bread mold.
To paraphrase the great social commentator Peter Griffin, if that wine is really the blood of Jesus Christ, then He must’ve been wasted 24 hours a day.
Wouldn’t calling it a matzo be funny?
“And the newspaper bothered to print this garbage? Why?”
For laughs, of course.
“I can’t help wondering: is there a better way to dispel false beliefs than ridiculing and disparaging the holders of such beliefs on this web site….PZ included?”
Not really, no. As the old saying goes, you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t arrive at by reason in the first place. Or at least, there’s a time and place for everything. This place, this blog, is for pointing and laughing. If I can’t do it here, then where am I going to do it? At home, alone?
“You have no respect for other people’s religion. Some one ought to shove a dildo up your ass.”
You do realize that people do that for fun, right?
In Spanish actually when you say “llamar al pan pan y al vino vino” (to call bread bread and wine wine), is akin to “call a spade a spade”.
“body and blood of Jesus”
if they insist on calling it Simulated Cannibalism, why don’t we do them the favour?
Inspiration comes from the most unusual places! If I ever start a blog of my own, I think I’ll call it “Stale Wafers and Weak Wine”
@paul kussman #60
Just to get my bias out of the way, I’m a deist. And, if in the end, god falls out of the equations, … what does it matter to me as I would be utterly unaware.
Why our brain is so wired to accept so much irrationality is a good question. Even my deism could be simply a bargain between reason and irrationality…. The ridicule we read on these pages remind me of the scene in the Life of Brian where the prophets were doing their thing and the masses were aping along as best as their cognitive abilities would allow. PZ is a prophet with many followers taking his lead. PZ mocks. His disciples mock, some grotesquely so.
As for the cracker… I grew up in a protestant tradition that took much of what is in the bible as metaphor. The creation story is a metaphor. The flood is a metaphor. And the bread and the wine were clearly metaphors. The metaphor was introduced by Jesus at the last supper, while he was still alive. It never occurred to me that anybody would take it literally until I read some pre-PRC Chinese cartoons that mocked christians for cannibalism. Digging further, I found that the cartoons were right – the Roman Catholics practiced a form of cannibalism. Polytheism (a spade as a spade, all those statues of the lessor gods Mary, et al, with candles and kneeling worshipers, would be instantly recognized as gods by any polytheist) in denial and miraculous cannibalism – Catholicism is a weird religion and the surface is only scratched. But then every religion is weird, regardless of who the prophet is.
What I don’t understand is this: why doesn’t Rome do a bit of science on the matter of the cracker and the wine? It should be easy to falsify the hypothesis that the cracker actually transmutes into the flesh of Jesus. Take stool samples after Mass and test for evidence of human flesh. Or do autopsies. I’m sure with the millions of people that go to Mass, a few die shortly after taking Eucharist. Simply examine their stomach contents for human tissue. If you find human tissue in a number of cases, match the DNA. Get a match then you’ve got Jesus. And a Nobel prize too, I bet.
Of course, they won’t do the science because they know it is a lie.
I say screw em.
I say we all need a bumper stickes that say:
“EUCHARIST THE OTHER WHITE MEAT”
Goes good with “Red Wine”
Mark M @117,
It is the Courtier’s – their actual claim is scientifically untestable.
@gaypaganunitarianagnostic #110
Haha, what does “really” mean. If you can get people to believe that a cracker can “really” become the body of a specific, long dead, human being without in fact physically changing, then you can get them to believe almost anything. Religion works that way. Jesus “really” did raise from the dead. Everything “really” was created in a week.
Reminds me of a classic…;
Two disciples sat licking their fingers after a large meal. “Jesus sure makes a delicious roast,” one disciple said.
“Yes he does,” said the other. “I’m sure going to miss him.”
This is polystyrene:
http://www.barrule.com/Workshop/images/info/foams/big/polystyrene.jpg
It looks like marshmallows, but it tastes like communion wafers.
There is currently something similar going on in Belgium, a country where the Catholics still have quite a bit of power:
http://thamno.com/blog/?p=1994
Oh, for crying out loud… will these people never go extinct?
“To refer to the Eucharist as a wafer and wine is to demean the value of this sacrament, seemingly equating it to an evening snack.”
I see where this is headed. Next, it will be disrespectful to Christians to refer to Jesus as a “man” or the New Testament as a “book”. Then it will be disrespectful to refer to Christianity as a “religion”. Then it will be disrespectful not to be a Christian yourself.
It used to be that religions demanded belief. “Blasphemer” they used to cry, often followed with “Death to the infidel” and “Stone her.” Now when the religious believe their faith has been insulted they merely implore us to “Please respect my religion”.
This is nothing but a scam. Nothing but the latest dodge used by religions in an attempt to prevent criticism of their beliefs. Since many people feel it’s rude to be disrespectful to someone’s personally held beliefs, this demand can stop debate over religion. It effectively prevents us from even discussing let alone challenging, ridiculing or criticizing religious beliefs. But is it a valid demand or are we simply being silenced by religious arrogance? Is this demand merely a cunning ploy to prevent us showing up religion for the silly superstition that it is?
Realizing that if they openly encourage criticism of other religions then this will eventually come back to haunt them, religions have tried to hold off their inevitable demise by forming a coalition with those that follow “false” religions. They all recognise that free inquiry is a far greater threat to their existence than other “false gods.” Thus the leaders of these many religions, but certainly not all their followers, have reached a fragile truce. They have agreed not to publicly challenge, ridicule or criticize the beliefs of other faiths. They have agreed to respect each other’s religion, all in the name of self-preservation. But this is only the first step. The crucial step now is to stop the penetrating gaze of science and reason, thus the secular world must be convinced to abide by a treaty it was not a party to. The secular world must accept that if religions have agreed to effectively ignore each other, then science and reason must do likewise.
Sorry, but we in the secular world do not have to turn a blind eye to these games. Truth knows no boundaries. Science and reason will not stop looking at religion just because religion is afraid of what it will reveal. Reason refuses to put on the blinkers that religion has provided.
Yep. Routinely. Almost every day. The Grauniad (international edition since I’m in France). Usually read it in the pub in the evening when I’m trying to avoid going Sprong! albeit with the horrible things sometimes read, I wind up going Spong sprong SPRONG!!!!1!.
Bloody expensive too (3€ for the weekday editions, Saturdays are even more), and it’s not (unlike the UK/Ireland edition) full-colour—which can be bothersome since many of graphics don’t work in greyscale. Perhaps the most annoying thing is (where I am) that for most of the year it’s a day late. So, e.g., I wind up reading the Monday (published in the morning) paper on Tuesday evening, and so on… This is one reason I’m often seriously behind in the news.
Sitting outdoors in the sun in the sun near overlooking the sea/park/whatever, drinking a fine beer/wine, and reading good writing in a quality paper beats the intertubes in so many ways!
When my sister and I were young [she was 8; I was 5], some neighbors invited us to a vacation bible school. My sister went. When she came home, my mother asked her what they did. She replied, “We had bread and beer.” She then told the story of Jesus saying “Father forgive them for they know not what they do. and Jesus said, ‘That’s what you think.'” Needless to say, we heathens were not invited back.
I always found they tasted a little like rice cakes, though smaller and not as bumpy. I liked them, just like I like plain oatmeal. It’s too bad I was only ever allowed one.
You are such apathetic dumbass bigot Paul.
I’m reminded of the Simpsons’ episode when Homer’s mother dies….
Homer: Apu, what do you think happens after you die?
Apu: Manjula will sell this store, die her hair blond, and marry my cousin … .
Manjula: Yes, I will!
Homer: I mean, do you think my mother’s out there somewhere? Does she know I feel bad about things I said?
Apu: Oh, perhaps she’s around us now. She may have already been reincarnated as that newborn baby or that tiny mouse in the nacho cheese.
Ned: Oh, for crying out loud, people aren’t mice.
Apu: Oh, what a surprise, Joe Jesus Jr.’s going to set us all straight.
Ned: Look, Homer, people don’t come back as anything, except for our Lord who came back as bread. That’s it.
Clean up on aisle 2. A troll just piddled!!!
Is that the best you can do? Even schizophrenic christofascists can manage a death threat or two.
The cracker iz what it iz…
nothing more, nothing lezz,
the atomz zooming within
are far more miraculouz
than tranzubztantiation
or like fantazy nonzenze;
more underztandable
more reazonable
quite phyzically zenzible, even
and zurprizingly uzeful too
than any ZardOZtentatiouz
ZTUPIDITY
will ever pozzibly know
or care
becauze they’re alwayz right
and nature iz alwayz wrong
–
I will apologize for that in advanze.
I zure izn’t a cuttlefizh
Juzt overcome by a zenze of zerenity mixed (uh oh, one got away) with daring
12
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Troll:
You are such apathetic dumbass bigot Paul.
Clean up on aisle 2. A troll just piddled!!!
Is that the best you can do? Even schizophrenic christofascists can manage a death threat or two.
“..the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t now, nor has it ever offered a wafer and wine as Communion. We do offer the body and blood of Jesus Christ”
eeww an yuck. So they really do cannibalise the 2000 year old remains of dead guy.
It would be a bit chewy would it not?
I thought transfats were unhealthy?
It’s funny how atheists always know more about other people’s religion than they do themselves. Much much more. They are obsessed. Why do you fucking care?
And please, ridicule is not “part of the package” it’s just something you enjoy, despite the fact that it’s counterproductive. A little honesty here would be more, um, rational.
PZ’s actions were obviously meant to offend, not educate. So some people were offended (wow, what a surprise) and you’re all amazed, jeez, what morons (yes, I mean the morons posting on this thread). Yes, it’s “your right” to be offensive. Is there any evidence that this is NOT counterproductive?
Catholicism is a beautiful religion, and Catholic schools provide some of the best K-12 science education in the US.
This blog is silly, sensationalist and hateful; not a good starting place for improving the situation. Vent away losers, I’m off to find real solutions.
That’s because most people are extremely ignorant about their religions. Off the top of your head, can you give three of Aquinas’ proofs for the existence of god? I can tell you all five.
If PZ and his ilk were sweetness and light, would that make you realize that god doesn’t exist? I didn’t think so. So you’re whining about tone rather than effectiveness.
Honesty? You can’t handle honesty. If you were honest you’d admit that the existence of god is a collective delusion.
So fucking what? When goddists stop offending us, we’ll consider not offending them.
When the Church stops protecting pedophile priests, when archbishops stop excommunicating people for giving an abortion to a nine-year-old rape victim, when the Pope stops lying about condoms and AIDS, then Catholicism might have some claim to being a beautiful religion. Until then, you and your lot are a bunch of bigoted, hateful liars. Sorry if this is offensive, but you’ve already noted that you find honesty offensive.
So?
You ain’t gone yet?
“, but you’ve already noted that you find honesty offensive.”
????
Where did I say that? I was clearly referring to honesty about why you enjoy ridiculing. Pretending it’s part of the strategy is dishonest – you just like it!
My opinions about God have no relevance to the discussion. So what’s the point? It just seems so pathetic. You’ve given up religion, but instead of being free, you’re even more obsessed than a fundamentalist.
Many beautiful things have a dark side.
You sound like a small, whiny pathetic person.
“top of your head, can you give three of Aquinas’ proofs for the existence of god? I can tell you all five.”
wadduya want, a medal or a chest to pin it on?
I thought you were leaving. Oh well, honesty never is something that most goddists are guilty of.
I’m perfectly free.
Tell me, little girl, have you ever gone fishing? Have you ever caught a fish and, instead of reeling it in right away, played with it? Or have you ever watched a cat playing with some critter it’s caught? We do the same thing to the goddists who come here to show us the way and bring us to Jebus. You’re just another one of the goddists who show up here to be playtoys.
Oh, such a cutting retort. Did you come up with it all by yourself or did your mommy and daddy help you with it?
Weirdo! You talk like a sadistic pedophile. No wonder you’re obsessed with Catholic priests. Who the fuck said anything about showing you the way? I keep my religious beliefs to myself.
My only concern is not being assholes to potential allies who are great science educators. Ironically, they manage to keep religion out of the science classroom, while the public schools can not seem to.
But it’s creepy here so I’m really leaving this time.
If they really do turn into the flesh of their lord tell me why do they sell gluten free communion wafers?
Isabel @ 138:
I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily obsession.
In many cases, the reason why some of us are so familiar with the minutia of some religion, or denomination of a religion, is because, once upon a time ago, we were raised in that religion, and no more informed on the underpinnings of it than seems to be the norm. Later, when they start to feel that, just maybe, religion and reality aren’t even on speaking terms, they start looking deeper, seeking some way that the religion and reality are compatible. From there, they may start looking at other denominations or kindred religions, hoping to find that underlying compatiblity. Obviously, speaking from an eventually atheistic position, they don’t find it there, either. From here it may branch out to a wider study of religions in generally, or to a study of the underlying psychology and sociology that lead people to believe the unreasonable, or to act as if they believe the same unreasonable things that the people around them believe.
I don’t speak for everyone, of course, but this seems to be a common chain of events. After all, there are some people who never were raised in a religion to begin with. For them, perhaps it’s a study of the psychological/sociological aspects from the start.