What a delightful and well deserved development! The Australian sister organization to Ken Ham’s Answers in Genesis is hammering him with a nasty lawsuit.
The Brisbane-based Creation Ministries International has filed a lawsuit in Queensland’s Supreme Court against Mr Ham and his Kentucky-based Answers in Genesis ministry seeking damages and accusing him of deceptive conduct in his dealings with the Australian organisation.
The suit focuses on a dispute over the Australian organisation’s production of a creationist magazine, sold in the US to more than 35,000 subscribers, and has led to revelations about the three-year battle between the two ministries.
A 40-page report, written by Mr Briese and obtained by The Australian, reveals a bitter power struggle across the Pacific that began with a challenge to the power Mr Ham allegedly wielded over the ministries.
I honestly don’t care who wins. The ideal conclusion will be that of the Kilkenny cats: mutual self-destruction.
When you read about it, the actions by Ken Ham’s organization were deceptive–they basically tried to steal the mailing list for a magazine by telling everyone that the Australian organization had gone out of business. Hypocrites.
You hate the illogic of religion; I hate the dishonesty of religious hypocrites of all stripes: lying about tenure, lying about abortion causing cancer, lying about evolution evidence… lying to each other is only what they deserve.
Is it just me, or does Ken Ham have the ‘aura’ of a modern day Captain Ahab in both looks and intentions?
There is no honor among thieves.
Is it prejudiced for me to simply assume that people who tout a moral high ground are actually compensating?
Because it seems to turn out that way a whole lot.
As I said last December,
It’s absolutely true. I used to receive Creation magazine from Answers in Genesis until Ken Ham announced that the magazine was being replaced with a brand-new periodical (which ended up being called Answers magazine). Anyone who read Ham’s letter would be completely certain that Creation was ceasing publication. Ham gave none of the readers a clue that he was hijacking the subscribers list from the Australian headquarters and relaunching AiG as a completely separate operation. (I should dig into my “archives” to see if I can find it. If I do, I’ll post the contents.)
It is a marvelous thing to consider how successful he can reconcile being a Christian and being a sneaky cad. Perhaps Ham is “forgiven” — or plans to be; later, when it’s more convenient and the dirty work is done.
I love obscure literary references.
“Except for their nails
And the tips of their tails”
MAD – Mutually assured destruction. One can hope so in this case. (And I mean the destruction of AIG’s “religious empire” – not the people, before anyone gets pissy.)
Muwahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!
I believe the correct expression would be, “I don’t care who wins, I’m just praying for injuries.”
Whenever I see someone claiming that secularists hate religion, I’m reminded that no one hates religion like the religious. They hate each other, and not just Christians hating Bhuddists, Jews, Hindus, and Moslems — Christians hate other Christians like crazy.
This looks like part of the natural progression of extremist movements – they eventually split and turn their energies against each other. I have been frankly surprised that the religious right has managed to keep it together as well as they have for as long as they have.
Used to live across the street from a fundy parsonage when I was a child. No pastor was ever in residence longer than a year. My granny, although a big believer in the good fences make good neighbors concept, nevertheless would always hear via the grapevine that the departures were invariably due to some internal battle or personal power struggle, some of them quite nasty.
They were always such hypocrites. I remember the daughter of one of the preachers trying to con me out of some marbles. She always cheated at any game we played.
#6. It’s absolutely true. I used to receive Creation magazine from Answers in Genesis
WHY?
KH, promissing initials. Let’s hope they make some nice predisposition. There are so many resemblances (e.g. Dinosaur Adventure Land and Creation Museum) the guy deservers to be called Kent Ham already. Hopefully some governmental agency will help him to meetwith the other KH within the next 10 years.
That’s useless, and kills trees. You should do what I do — run around to all of the evangelical book signings and grab the travel mugs that they’re giving away. You’ll look somewhat funny carrying them around, but won’t regret it when you lose them.
The LORD is my shepherd, and I shall not want (for insulated coffee mugs).
Why did I get Creation magazine? Because Ken Ham is one of my special pen pals. In addition to AiG, I get stuff from ICR and Coral Ridge. My mail carrier must be terribly confused, considering that I get publications from an incredible array of outfits across the spectrum from left to right, from religious to free thinker. The lefty stuff is for me; the wingnut material is to be forewarned. I read it (or at least scan it) to stay informed what the crazies are up to (and what my Mom & Dad will soon be spouting at me). It’s self defense.
Everyone needs a hobby, you know. I try to squeeze it in along with my recent decision to not run marathons, having been inspired by one of my role models.
The lawyer-fish will escalate the Christian soldiers fighting. The bigger the fight, the bigger the fee. The lawyer-fish will motion, and motion, and milk those bedeviled Christians to the limit of their brotherly love and deep pockets.
PZ, only the lawyers can win. The litigants are merely the raw material in the extortion racket.
If I had a god, I’d pray for that.
Cthulhu answers prayers for destruction, right?
I’ve lived in Brisbane my entire life and this is the first I’ve ever heard of this Brisbane-based Creation Ministries International. Not exactly the most high-profile of organisations.
Our state museum here in Brisbane has two life-size fibreglass dinosaurs next to it (a Tyrannosaurus rex and a triceratops). I bet Creation Ministries International love going and photographing themselves next to the dinosaurs to reenact humans and dinosaurs getting along together like a house on fire, coconuts and all.
Jess, CMI was for a long time called the Creation Science Foundation (though you may well not heard of them either). Then, they changed name to Answers in Genesis to match the US branch of the organisation, then became CMI a couple of years ago when there was an acrimonious split with the US branch.
PZ said he doesn’t care who wins, but I do. AIG is a much bigger threat, so I’m hoping CMI inflicts some major damage on them (particularly since CMI appears to be the wronged party in this dispute).
I believe this is one of the few instances in life where right thinking people root for the lawyers.
PZ: Now THIS is what I call good (hehehe) ‘framing’.
Blake: If both of us feel it’s well past time to go to the churches and call a spade a spade, then let me suggest that every detail we can extract from these court proceedings is an arrow in our quiver. If anyone knows some Aussies who can birddog this and get the full skinny widely disseminated, they would be doing those of us willing to carry the battle TO the enemy a great service.
Assertively…SH
If I had a god, I’d pray for that.
Cthulhu answers prayers for destruction, right?
Yes, except I believe that one of the blessings of his followers is “May Cthulhu honour you by destroying you first.” Hardly the glorious fate we’d want for these ‘Christians’. Let them cower in pants-filling terror for a while.
Remember always that Christ hung around with working men (i.e. labourers), women, lepers, prostitutes and other despised folk; while condemning those who spent their time consigning everyone else to Hell in a handbasket. I’d love it all to be true, simply to see what He’d have to say to Ham, Robertson, Falwell and the rest. I think He would be as disgusted as PZ is.
This is disturbing because it shows that the CMI group is not taking the whole of the Bible as authoritative. They’re forgetting 1 Corinthians 6, for example.
I also originally subscribed to Creation Magazine and received the noticed last year about the new magazine, Answers. But if I remember right, the announcement did in fact say that Creation Magazine was still available and that I could call AiG to find out how to continue my reception of Creation Magazine.
I think the whole thing about a subscriber list is bogus. When I subscribed to Creation Magazine, I did so at an AiG conference, where AiG advertised the magazine, I wrote my check to AiG, I gave my subscription form to AiG, and the magazines were shipped from AiG. But the magazine itself was obviously produced in Australia. So it would seem that AiG probably purchased the magazines in bulk from CMI and redistributed them to AiG’s own subscriber list.
Another evidence that the subscriber list belongs to AiG is that everything I ever got with the magazine was AiG-USA stuff, nothing from CMI (or I guess then-AiG-AU).
So if AiG owned the subscriber list, which it appears that they do, then they simply “switched providers” for the magazine. And you know what? I’m glad that they did, and everyone that I know is, because Answers magazine is so much better!
It really looks like there are a lot of important details being left out from CMI’s comments, and it sounds like CMI has some grudge or bitterness against AiG. And this concerns me.
#25 And you know what? I’m glad that they did, and everyone that I know is, because Answers magazine is so much better!
Better is a relative term.
Rumor has it that Hanna Barbera is going to sue for copyright infringement.
(*Not really, but they ought to.)
Jim–
Nope, never heard of Creation Science Foundation either. I would be hard-pressed to come up with a name for any religious organisations here in Brisbane other than actual churches, except for the Evangelical Students Association that operates on the university campus where my research lab is based. They’re pretty low-key; they just put up a few posters and hold Bible meetings in various places.
Notably, one place that they don’t hold Bible meetings is at one of the cafes on campus that happens to be next to the Biological Sciences Library and happens to be called Darwin’s, with its logo that depicts various stages of primate evolution.
This just shows that the only creation the creationists are interested in is the creation of profit. It is all a big scam, like televangelists. They even think they might get a crack at the lucrative textbook market. The magazine is just the beginning. Next thing you know, they will have a whole bunch of journals, and they will be hosting international weapon sales conferences.
Rasputin, your comment about rooting for lawyers a-gin the Christians forces me to reflect.
Bertrand Russell opined; “We love those who hate our enemies, and if we didn’t have any enemies; there would be few people whom we should love.” Okay!!
Truthfully, my contempt for the foul legal trade has me rooting for the Christians. Es verdad.
Lawyers know full well that they are milking their fellows. Three more years of “higher indoctrination” routinely transforms them into staunch “believers,” in their yuppie right to milk and bankrupt their own client. They, of course, produce nothing behind the smoke.
Jim and Tammy Baker, for instance, would have done equally well with law degrees and professional ethics. I would frame it as a class scam – the rights game. Lawyering is as sacred a cow as religion.
Is that you, NewiQue? The same NewiQue who had all kinds of information about the Creation Museum the day it opened? Who cuts your paychecks, honey? Because– please extend some Christian forgiveness here– you don’t come across as a very reliable source.
Looks like a win for us either way.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, for those that throw stones with glee and live in glass houses themselves should remember that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming soon to judge the living and the dead, and by the way which of you finds fault in Him,in that day you will be running for the hills, to hide yourselves with the Neanderthals who had rickets anyway MARANATHA COME LORD JESUS
NewiQue (#25), perhaps you’d like to take a look around at where, exactly, on the web you are. And then scurry home to your mutual petting society with ForTheKids (yeah, that one has been here, too) and associated lockstep company.
We don’t care which one is “right” because thay are both about as wrong as it gets. We just hope they both go down in self-inflicted flames. We also think it’s grotesque and scary that you think that Xians should not obey the law (Corintians I 6:12).
So Martin…you rooting for AIG or CMI?
[Emphasis mine]
A reading from the Revelation of Ham, Book 6:14-17:
And Lo! I beheld the Lord, seated in judgment on high. Then the Angel for the Plaintiff madeth me taketh the stand, and anointing his throat with ice water, produced from his robes a scroll of such magnificence that my eyes were moved to cry, and my throat did swell up, and I was overcome.
“Looketh upon this affidavit, and affirm that the signature placed upon it is thine,” he commanded, and his voice did boom such that the Stenographer of the Lord needeth not strain to hear his words.
AiG and CMI would be small crackers and a mere diversion if it were not for those subscribers who pony up their subscription fees in the warm anticipation of being confirmed in belief by Publishers and Authors and Authorities. They have a deep investment of trust, moral certitude, and . . . faith, not only in the content of the magazine, but in the motivations of those who create and distribute it.
If the idea of “death by a thousand cuts” can be applied to a nation it might take a similar form: promise much, deliver crumbs seasoned with holiness; offer a special one-time-only opportunity (save five bucks!) then proffer unchanged pablum (except for the address on the prepaid remittance envelope). Undermine human trust one poor slob at a time. Gain the trust of someone and then blow them off. Poof. Great. grumble grumble expitive
These are old tricks, well honed by priests and politicians and they’re still getting away with it. There’s gotta be a better way and for a moment just now I almost saw it. Damn! There goes another concept that would have rocked the republic!
khan said:
The ideal conclusion will be that of the Kilkenny cats: mutual self-destruction.
I love obscure literary references.
“Except for their nails
And the tips of their tails”
I remember:
They fought and they fit,
And they scratched and they bit.
‘Till instead of two cats
There weren’t any.
How’ the rest of that go?
Jess (#20, 28):
I’m an ex-Brisbanite (in fact, your fine institution is where I did my undergrad, I believe, although I don’t remember the Biol Refec being called Darwin’s) and I’ve heard of them. Probably more because I follow the issue (e.g. through Australian Skeptics) but you’ll also find they’re a lot more visible further north and inland. When I lived on the Sunshine Coast (for the USAnians: about 80km north of Brisbane), my local newsagent had Creation magazine as the only publication in the science section, and refused to stock New Scientist. (Also, a local plumber noticed the Darwin fish on our car and gave us a lecture about how Darwin converted on his deathbed).
Scott (#23): Obviously I’m an Aussie, and I’m happy to aid the cause, but I must confess ignorance regarding the meaning of “birddog” (birddogging?). The skeptic/atheist folks seem to be up to speed, if that helps – in fact, I remember some discussion a few years back when Ham’s group originally split from the Australian mob.
Zeno says: “I read it (or at least scan it) to stay informed what the crazies are up to…”
You have the constituion of an ox, sir. My sincere respects!
…or madam. (Pardon the sexist presumption).
Rey…I work for AIG the U.K branch,I have met and talked with Ken Ham many times, he is a dear man, also CMI are old friends, I sometimes have sunday dinner with the U.K boss Philip Bell who in like manner is a great christain, if people have sinned all will be made known in that day, and if people have to eat humble pie,then so be it,I’m not rooting for anyone except Leicester City Football team .
I suggest Joseph j7uy5 for the Order of the Molly.
I suggest Joseph j7uy5 for the Order of the Molly.
‘a dear man’? ‘…in like manner is a great christian’?
So, liars make great Christians?
Good to know.
Oh. Well, uh, they’re both liars and frauds anyway. So you’re better off with the football team.
Rey, I want you to know that you don’t offend me, I’ve got a hide like an elephant….say have you ever tried to hide an elephant…….I must object to Pete on #2 Ken Ham does not look like Ahab…well maybe on a bad day, but I think he looks more like Abraham Lincoln, let me extend a warm welcome to you all at our wonderful Creation Museum, no doubt you are all looking forward to a visit, and you won’t be disappointed,as I say all are welcome, no matter what religion you are, even if you hold to the religion of evolution.
There’s a big difference between religion and science. Maybe some day you’ll learn it, and you will truly be free.
In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded ,then in time came forth the beautiful being that was Greta Garbo ……if we believe along these lines its time for the men in white coats to take us away , the problem is that most people who believe it are the men in white coats.
do they have greta garbo at your museum, Martin?
I rather think the men in the white coats have already visited you.
the only question is:
did you escape, or do they have internet access at the facility?