Rob Helpy-Chalk has a horrific video of a student being repeatedly shocked with a taser…for not exiting a UCLA library quickly enough. If you’d rather not listen to a hand-cuffed young man screaming in pain, you could just read the story. There are a few campus police officers who need to be sacked immediately and publicly; there are no excuses for their abuse of power.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
This is the problem with cops and tasers.
Tasers are intended to be used to subdue someone that you would otherwise be shooting with a pistol. It was meant to be a non-lethal alternative to guns, thus lowering the level of violence.
Instead, though, cops are using it in cases where they were not in danger – where they would NOT have used a gun… and so it actually INCREASES the level of violence.
Bottom line is, if the cop tases someone that he would not have shot were he armed with a gun instead, then he has assaulted the person.
This video had me pacing the floor in anger. If I had been there, I believe I would have felt it necessary to defend him from his attackers. I certainly could not have just stood and watched.
I wonder how my court case would have gone?
I wonder how my court case would have gone?
probably quite well. These were “Kampus Kops”, after all, yes?
I’d be willing to bet they far exceeded their authority in this matter.
Damn. This has me steaming mad. I wish I was there. I don’t understand nobody stopping them. I can’t understand people just standing and watching someone be assaulted without stepping in.
“I can’t understand people just standing and watching someone be assaulted without stepping in.”
Apparently the cops threatened to tase anyone who tried to intervene.
Wait. Abusive campus cops at UCLA?
So now we know where the LAPD gets its fresh blood from.
Well, dammit, there you go. It’s that song playing again…
Some university cops actually are sworn peace officers. Whether that’s the case with UCLA’s department I don’t know.
Sounds like guy was acting like a HHUUUUUUUGE asshole before he got tazed. Maybe even like a violent fucking dick.
So the cops were supposed to do something gentle like … tackle him? Guess what: that’s assault, too.
Man, nobody dislikes police less than I do. On the other hand, I’m not so fucking stupid to believe that screaming “Don’t you fucking touch me” to cops in a public library isn’t going to have some serious consequences, including getting tazed or severly bruised when the cop kicks my ass.
The only issue is whether the cops told the guy that if he didn’t get the FUCK out of the libary, he was going to get his ass tazed. My guess is that they did tell him.
P.S. I see from the story the cops lied through their teeth about the victim’s “resistance”- what a surprise.
Well, we really have a poor understanding of what led to the tasing, so I’ll reserve judgement for the initial shock. Hopefully the result of the investigation becomes available.
However, he was tased multiple times. That’s pretty malicious.
Whether campus cops are sworn peace officers or not usually depends on the status of the University. Here in Nebraska, (Yes, one of the notches on the Bible Belt) the University is a state sponsored university, so SOME of the officers are actually state law enforcement. Being this was the University of California at Los Angeles, they very well may be state officers.
GWW, how about acknowledging that neither the video nor the eyewitesses support the cops’ claims that he was “acting like an asshole”. It’s pretty clear to me who the assholes are here.
“Apparently the cops threatened to tase anyone who tried to intervene.”
Well of course. But a taser can only tase one person at a time. And there were many people there.
It’s just a matter of waiting for an opening.
Of course, being that I have PTSD so I am hyperreflexive, hypervigilant and stuff like this triggers in me a state of hyperarousal, I react differently to stuff than other people do.
GWW, how about acknowledging that neither the video nor the eyewitesses support the cops’ claims that he was “acting like an asshole”.
The dude is shouting at the top of his fucking lungs IN A LIBRARY before he gets tazed. That’s not “acting like an asshole”? Since when?
I can’t view the news link. Is anyone going to prosecute?
The cops tased him repeatedly when he was down for refusing to get up. That simply has to be excessive force, no matter what rulebook you play by.
This is a lot like the Rodney King case, in that a plausible case can be made for using force at first. But once the guy is immobilized–handcuffed according to one witness, although you can’t tell from the video, the subsequent attacks are excessive force.
The Rodney King video affected people because it is hard to look at a helpless person being assaulted. In some ways the lead up become moot. We know you shouldn’t kick someone when they are down.
The first link (to the video) sends me to the blog entry, “The Evolution of the Female Orgasm”. While provocative and interesting, it’s not what was promised.
The second link (to the UCLA paper) won’t open–and I have a high-speed connection.
Thanks for the tease PZ!!
“The only issue is whether the cops told the guy that if he didn’t get the FUCK out of the libary, he was going to get his ass tazed. My guess is that they did tell him.”
It doesn’t matter. AGAIN – tasers are not supposed to be used on unarmed people. They are intended to be used for self-protection of officers. They are intended as a LESS HARMFUL alternative to bullets, not as a MORE HARMFUL alternative to arm-twisting.
People have the mistaken impression that a taser is supposed to be used along the same lines as handcuffing someone, strong-arming them out the door, or at worst pepper spray.
These people, and you, are simply WRONG.
Tasers are NOT supposed to be used on unarmed people. If in a given situation a cop would not be justified in putting a bullet in someone’s head, then they are not justified in tasing them.
Tasers can kill. Using tasers on unarmed people is an escalation of the level of violence cops can get away with. This is totaly the opposite of their intended use.
Yelling “don’t touch me” when you haven’t done anything wrong, have said (as eyewitnesses attest) that you’re leaving, yet are threatened by a uniformed goon with physical force? Nope, that’s not acting like an asshole. Using a taser on a harmless person because you’re a dickhead cop whose ego is out of control? Now that is being an asshole. Actually, it’s being a criminal.
The dude is shouting at the top of his fucking lungs IN A LIBRARY before he gets tazed. That’s not “acting like an asshole”? Since when?
Maybe he was justified in shouting. Maybe not. It doesn’t matter.
The cops would not have been justified in shooting him, and therefore were not justified in tasing him.
This is a complete misuse of the weapon. Despite what you and some others think, this is NOT an alternative to zip ties or being dragged out by your feet. It was never intended for that use, and most police guideline prohibit it being used that way.
“Resisting” does not mean failure to immediately do as you’re told. It refers to the use of violence to prevent officers from arresting you.
This student was not resisting in any way that I can detect. Forget firing – some people need killing, and that right quick.
We can at least be grateful that those subhumans were merely Campus Police and not the real thing.
Youtube link
“I realize when looking at these kind of arrest tapes that they don’t always show the full picture. … But that six minutes that we can watch just seems like it’s a ridiculous amount of force for someone being escorted because they forgot their BruinCard,” said Ali Ghandour, a fourth-year anthropology student.
If that isn’t a gross disgusting misrepresentation of what happened in that library, I don’t know what is.
Has anyone here ever been escorted by police out of a library? I haven’t. Here’s some advice: if they take you by the arm and escort you out, just shut the fuck up and be happy they are escorting you out and not arresting your ass.
Try to remember the flip side: the cops had no clue who this idiot was or what he was trying to accomplish with his temper tantrum. You can bet your life that if they sat there and watched the guy walk towards the door and then dart to the side, pull out a gun and shoot a few people’s brains out, the cops would be getting hell for not doing enough. That is how cops’ brains works.
What kind of adult doesn’t understand this in 2006? Answer: the kind of adult who is asking to get a tazed.
I suggest that the entire freakin’ UCLA administration should resign at once for not immediately firing these sadistic morons.
This student was not resisting in any way that I can detect.
And you were there, right?
Maybe he was justified in shouting. Maybe not.
What the hell??? Why would he be justified in shouting? Let’s hear your excuse. THis oughta be good.
It doesn’t matter.
The cops would not have been justified in shooting him, and therefore were not justified in tasing him.
Where are you coming up with this garbage? Tazer’s aren’t considered lethal weapons. You may BELIEVE they are but the fact is: they aren’t considered lethal weapons.
So get over it.
To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
To a cop with a tazer . . .
What kind of adult doesn’t understand this in 2006? Answer: the kind of adult who is asking to get a tazed.
you are the one not understanding.
If he went for a weapon, they would be justified in tasing him, just as they would have been justified in shooting him.
You do not shoot someone who is loud and who is making no threatening moves, and you do not tase someone who is making no threatening moves.
You cannot shoot someone because there is a possibility he might be armed, whether its with a gun or a taser. You only can shoot someone when you have reason to believe that they are armed.
The taser is a replacement for a GUN. If use of a gun is not appropriate, use of a taser is not appropriate. Its as simple as that. That is the intended use of the taser, and that is how officers are supposed to be trained to use them.
I haven’t looked at the video, but noticed that the young man had a Middle Eastern name. Is it possible that these campus cops were indulging some ethnic prejudices here?
Yelling “don’t touch me” when you haven’t done anything wrong, have said (as eyewitnesses attest) that you’re leaving, yet are threatened by a uniformed goon with physical force? Nope, that’s not acting like an asshole.
Geez, you can hear from the cell that Mr. Asshole is doing more than simply yelling once, “Don’t touch me.” He’s throwing a fucking shitfit of insane proportions.
It *is* acting like an asshole. Moreover, it is WRONG to throw a huge shitfit when you aren’t allowed to entrance because you don’t have an ID.
Do you really believe that this was a simple exchange of
LIBRARIAN: I need your ID.
ASSHOLE: I don’t have it.
LIBRARIAN: Then you can’t get in.
ASSHOLE: Okay, I’ll leave.
COP: You better leave now or we’re going to fucking taze your ass (grabs assholes arm).
You think that’s what happened? Guess again.
If he went for a weapon, they would be justified in tasing him, just as they would have been justified in shooting him.
According to you? Or according to the law?
If I read the story correctly, the student was *already in* the library when he was “randomly” asked to provide his ID card.
That’s a rather different scenario from the hypothetical confrontation with the librarian described above.
Okay I’ll be the first to say it: the student’s name is Mostafa Tabatabainejad. Did the fact that he is Iranian have anything to do with why they chose to stop someone who was alrady on his way out of the library and demand to see his ID? We know the Michelle Malkin and her trolls will bring this up when they start defending the cops who had no way of knowning whether or not Tabatabainejad had an atomic bomb in his back pack that he was planning to detonate at the day care center.
My reading of the news story is that the cops are city of LA cops, not campus cops or security guards.
This student was not resisting in any way that I can detect.
And you were there, right?
In the video he is clearly down, and they are asking him to get up. He fails to get up, either because he won’t or he can’t. He is not complying, but this is different than actively resisting. According to a commenter at youtube, police typically use a five level system for judging compliance: “Compliant, Resistant (passive), Resistant (active), Assaultive (physical injury), and Assaultive (serious injury or death).”
The student–his name by the way is Mostafa Tabatabainejad, and that is significant–is in the video either engaged in passive resistence or he is simply stunned. Either way, he is not a threat.
You cannot shoot someone because there is a possibility he might be armed, whether its with a gun or a taser.
According to you, or according to the law?
I think you are simplifying things, my friend. In fact, I know you are. You can shoot unarmed people. And you can taze unarmed people.
So why are you making crap up?
Also: if UCLA police are like the police at UCSC and UC Davis, they *are* “real” police officers, with exactly the same legal position and responsibilities as municipal police. The University campus is a separate jurisdiction from the surrounding city.
The “and you were there, right” in my last post should be ital, to indicate that it is the great white troll talking.
So, Great White Wonder, it’s perfectly acceptible to taser a person repeatedly for not getting up immediately, when demanded to do so, even though the person is still recovering from being tasered in the first place?
And is it also acceptible for these police officers to threaten innocent bystanders with being tasered, also, simply because some of them tried to beg for mercy on the tasered person, or because some of them wanted to see the police officers’ badges?
What the hell??? Why would he be justified in shouting? Let’s hear your excuse. THis oughta be good.
You can’t imagine a person being justified in shouting?
I dunno – perhaps be was being accosted? perhaps his rights were being violated? Perhaps he had NO justification.
Shouting is NOT a legitimate reason to shoot someone.
Tasers are NOT classified as non-lethal. they are classified as LESS lethal. They can kill, but it is rare.
The taser was designed and intended to replace guns. They were intended to be used to make sure that a violent person ends up in court instead of the cemetery.
They are NOT supposed to be used on unarmed people. That is the guideline for use in most police departments.
Tasers were introduced to DECREASE the level of violence, not increase it.
Do a little research.
If I read the story correctly, the student was *already in* the library when he was “randomly” asked to provide his ID card.
Geezus have you been on a library on campus? At the libraries I frequented they don’t ask for your ID at the door like it’s a dance club. They ask for your ID somewhere in the interior.
Are you seriously suggesting that this dude was profiled and asked for his ID? AT UCLA??? That’s a laugh.
Before you throw the racist card, please bear in mind that Tehrangeles is NOTHING like Minnesota. You can’t throw a sour cherry without hitting a Persian down there. There’s probably more Persian cops in LA than the entire state of Minnesota. The idea that this guy was picked out for looking Middle Eastern or some shit like that is totally fucking absurd.
And before anyone throws the fucking racist card at me, I have loads of Iranian relatives, whom I love.
Sorry, craig is right, and you’re a dick. Everything up to the tazing is irrelevant. Using a tazer was excessive force for the situation, plain and simple. The kid was causing a disruption, but big deal. Grab him and take him out. Tackle him. Whatever. Unless he is fighting back or threatening to injure someone, there is no justification for the use of a tazer.
The British are definitely on to something. For all the situations that having a weapon defuses something ugly, you get ten or twenty like this where the cop skips all the intermediate steps of the engagement and whips out the weapon just because he can. It’s a gross abuse of authority.
“Over a recent five-year period, at least 148 people have died in the U.S. and Canada after being shocked with Tasers by police. In 2005 alone, there were 77 deaths in incidents involving the use of Tasers. Fifteen of these were in Northern and Central California. In the San Jose area, 3 people have died in such incidents.”
Tasers are NOT classified as non-lethal. they are classified as LESS lethal. They can kill, but it is rare.
according the article, 148 people have been killed by tasers since 1999 in the US and Canada.
also of note in this case, is that when asked for badge information by a student, in a non-threatening manner, one of the “Kops” responded by threatening to taser the student who asked.
according to the article (was news to me, and I live here) that’s considered assault in CA , and a very big NO-NO for a cop to threaten violence when asked for his badge number.
yeah, there were definetly some issues here that bear futher investigation.
You can clearly see in the video that the guy is handcuffed, with his hands behind his back, when two officers put their hands under his arms and drag him away. You also seem him tasered, screaming and arching backward, with his hands still behind his back.
In my day, librarians would “shhhh” you for screaming in the library, not taser you.
We’re not throwing the “racist card” at you.
We’re just coming to the conclusion that you think it’s perfectly acceptable for police officers to brutalize and possibly kill anyone they deem a threat, whether they really are a threat or not.
craig
The taser was designed and intended to replace guns. They were intended to be used to make sure that a violent person ends up in court instead of the cemetery.
Interesting that you refused to answer my direct questions to you. Fine. Not unexpected.
Guess what: nobody ended up in a cemetary in this case. Some asshole got tazed and some students in a library were upset by his boo-hoo-hooing.
Again: what the fuck happened before this asshole was tazed the first time?
Nobody really wants to talk about that. I’ve heard some pleasing stories about how the asshole in question was profiled and made to leave “against his rights” but strangely those stories appear to contradict common sense and the undeniable facts which we can hear on the video itself: this dickhead was throwing a gigantic hissyfit that compelled at least one person to fire up his cell phone camera.
“Tehrangeles”
…
Oh, that’s about the end of this conversation now. I don’t need to be arguing with bigotted morons.
whenever anything remotely like this happens, the ‘net response tends to break down predictably into two recognizable, fairly stable camps, as demonstrated above.
some people deplore the violence on the part of the officials, and in the absence of evidence otherwise, tend to assume it was unwarranted. others (and on average, i would judge this group to be somewhat smaller) tend to give officials (police officers, whatever) every conceivable benefit of the doubt, and appear to assume that whatever they did was warranted unless proven otherwise beyond every reasonable doubt.
the second group appear (in my subjective estimation) to usually apply a much stricter standard of evidence than the first one. there seem to be comparatively fewer people who will never believe a peace officer’s actions to be warranted than there are ones who will always believe an officer’s actions to be justified no matter what.
we weren’t there, as has been repeatedly pointed out, and even cameras only show a single point of view on a complex set of events, usually without any of the context needed to make a good judgement. stories like these need — and deserve — to be examined in courts of law, or at very least before grand juries; there, the appropriate context and opposing viewpoints can be brought forward.
Everything up to the tazing is irrelevant.
It’s not irrelevant for determining whether this guy deserved to be tazed the first time, which is what I’m talking about.
Did he deserved to be tazed the 4th time? I don’t know.
“Tehrangeles”
Now we can play the race card.
RedMolly: Almost correct. In CA, the UC police are state level police. the various campuses are not municipalites, but part of the State of California.
Goodbye Great White Wonder–thank you killfile :-) Peace at last, Halleluia, peace at last.
All I know is the boys at UCLA are a bunch of pussies. You stand there listening to that guy scream in pain like that and your response is “I demand your badge number!” Jesus, what a bunch of pussies. In my college days with my buddies, those cops would have been lucky to get out of the building in one piece.
And Great White Wonder, you’re a pussy too. If I want to yell at a cop to get his fucking hands off me, I’ll yell as loud as I feel. It’s still a free fucking country. Although when I see how these little sissy twerps at UCLA cower in the face of petty authority, I can believe it won’t be for much longer.
this reminds me of a case a few years back (I think it was in Humboldt county?) where folks protesting illegal logging were doing a sit-in in the mayor’s office lobby, and the cops, after telling them to leave, swabbed (yes, swabbed) their eyes with pepper spray.
yikes.
You said they are non-lethal. You were wrong.
Tasers can kill. You do NOT attack someone with a potentially deadly weapon because they shouted in the library or threw a gigantic hissyfit.
You do not attack someone with a potentially deadly weapon when they are handcuffed and laying on the floor.
I realize that its ok with YOU if someone gets attacked with a potentially deadly weapon for shouting in a library, but that’s simply because you are wrong.
OK, even if the guy was an asshole that still isn’t justification to use possibly lethal force. Nationally there have been 69 deaths from tasers since 2000.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/201827_taser01.html
Now imagine for a second that you’re a student in a library and you forgot your card. Some guy asks you to leave even though you’re paying money to go to this school. You refuse thinking maybe he’ll just go away, in your mind he’s being the asshole. Then the cops show up and start trying to pick you up and make you leave. You have a thing against physical contact and people violating your personal space (rememeber, in your mind all you have done is forgot a studnet ID card). You yell for them to stop, and the cops use an incapacitating, extremely painful, and possibly lethal weapon because you verbally said something?
BS… that is over the line. But thats not whats so bad. I wasn’t there, maybe he was a lot more actively resistant. But there is absolutley no excuse for tasering him when he is handcuffed, and certainly criminal charges shoud be brought against the police officers for threatening another student when they ask for the badge number.
These “cops” crossed the line, and should not be cops, and should be faced with assault charges.
Nor at the campus libraries I’ve been to. The only time I’ve had to show an ID other than when checking out books was when applying for admission to the medieval manuscripts collection at Cal’s Bancroft Library.
And I think that’s about enough of responding to you.
Again, to the folks wasting their time trying to prove that tazers are “lethal weapons” by citing incidences of people being killed by them: spare me. That game is too easy to play.
My point is that cops carry — and are allowed to carry — tazers and guns, for different reasons. There are good reasons for this. You may not like the reasons. You may not like the conclusion. But for the time being, you’re out of luck. Same deal with pepper spray.
Instead of complying with a perfectly reasonable policy like everyone else, the shithead chose to be belligerent and demand special treatment; he earned his tazering.
This is my last response to your type.
Being attacked with a potentially deadly weapon for not complying with library policy is NOT justifiable. It does NOT earn you a tasering.
The fact that YOU think being attacked with a potentially deadly weapon while handcuffed because you didn’t comply with a policy is ok only reveals a serious flaw in your character.
we weren’t there, as has been repeatedly pointed out, and even cameras only show a single point of view on a complex set of events, usually without any of the context needed to make a good judgement. stories like these need — and deserve — to be examined in courts of law, or at very least before grand juries; there, the appropriate context and opposing viewpoints can be brought forward.
sorry, but there clearly were documented instances of legal violations on the part of these officers. Take the threats of tasering when asked for badge number, for one.
that certainly suggests there is something worth investigating here, and lends credence to those who think the officers were way out of line here.
First of all, the University of California Police Department (UCPD) is its own police department that operates at all of the University of California campuses. They’re real police officers, not rent-a-cops; if I understand correctly, they exist so that local police departments don’t have to patrol UC campuses.
Second of all, these police vastly overreached their authority. It doesn’t matter if the guy was yelling, doing jumping jacks, or whatever in the library. The fact that he was repeatedly tased while (as others have pointed out) still recovering from his initial shocks shows that this is nothing short of police brutality. Great White Wonder, did you read the article? It says:
But according to a study published in the Lancet Medical Journal in 2001, a charge of three to five seconds can result in immobilization for five to 15 minutes, which would mean that Tabatabainejad could have been physically unable to stand when the officers demanded that he do so.
What in the world is legitimate about shooting someone with a taser while he’s still incapacitated from your previous shot? And all this over not leaving a library quickly enough? He was walking to the door when he was assaulted by the police. He was obeying their orders, just not fast enough to satisfy the bully with a badge. That is seriously fucked up.
Max Udargo, Great White Wonder, and Lebesgue-Stieltjes Integral should meet in the non-virtual world and settle their differences with a cock-off.
Thanks, John, for the clarification–I knew UC police had a central organization system, but didn’t know they were technically state police. Duly noted for future reference.
this dickhead was throwing a gigantic hissyfit that compelled at least one person to fire up his cell phone camera.
So yelling is now totally appropriate grounds for the police to use violence against you. Neat! I think I’ll go get a badge so I can beat up all people who ever engage in non-violent protest.
All sources point to that having been the only thing this guy did. The police tried to oust him from the library for not having his student card on him (or refusing to show it) and he protested loudly, but not violently. Then the cops did the 21st-century equivalent of turning a fire hose on him.
The reasons cops carry tasers, and the reason they used them in the story aren’t the same reasons. Thats the whole point. And if a weapon can kill, then it is a possibly lethal weapon. Amenesty International is currently trying to get taser use restricted because fo that point.
But this is all secondary to what we are trying to get you to recognize. The first tasering isn’t the violation, its the repeated use of it on an incapacitated man thats wholly inappropriate.
SO defend that. You are just erecting strawmen arguments so far. I have yet to see you actually put up a point that deals with anything after the first use of the taser.
Max Udargo, Great White Wonder, and Lebesgue-Stieltjes Integral should meet in the non-virtual world and settle their differences with a cock-off.
I’d win. And Great White Wonder could bring an army of UCLA students and I’d still win.
The sickest thing about that video was the impotent reaction of the witnesses. It’s just a disgrace.
The only time I’ve had to show an ID other than when checking out books was when applying for admission to the medieval manuscripts collection at Cal’s Bancroft Library.
Time’s have changed, then, because last time I checked you needed a pass through a monitored turnstyle to get into the collections at many of Cal’s libraries.
In fact, two seconds of Google searching reveals that this remains the case: “The public is welcome to attend these classes [in the library] but must sign-in with Moffitt entrance security monitor. UC Berkeley students, faculty and staff must show campus ID.”
What’s the deal RedMolly? You aren’t trying to bullshit all of us are you?
I never have to show my student ID to get into the libraries at UC Irvine. So, what’s the deal GWW? You’re not trying to bullshit all of us, are you?
From my experiences, this is what I imagined happened. It happens all the time across University campuses.
Student is doing something he/she should not be. (In this case in a library after hours without ID.) It can be anything.
Worker at said locale — doing his or her job — asks the person to stop doing what it is they are doing. In this case, they were asked to leave.
The perpetrator refuses. They could be beligerent. Say things like “I pay fees! I pay tuition! I have a right to be here!” Nevertheless, they are in violation of the rules.
Worker who asks the perpetrator to leave threatens to call the police.
Perpetrator continues to refuse to play by the rules.
Cops arrive. Perpetrator is still beligerent. Still believes he/she has a right to continue to do what they were doing.
Cops do whatever they do.
Thus, the video and the newspaper story are only a small part of the interaction that this student had with library authorities and police. Did the cops use excessive force? Probably. Should the person have left when asked? Definitely.
There are probably signs all over that library that state you must have ID after 11:30pm. This student could have avoided EVERYTHING if he would have just left when asked. This is what is going to prevent the cops from losing their jobs. This is what is going to prevent him from getting anything from any lawsuit. This would have been a non-starter if he would have just followed the posted rules.
So yelling is now totally appropriate grounds for the police to use violence against you.
I love how people erect strawmen when they can find nothing intelligent to say in response to what I’ve actually written.
Folks, as I said in my first post, I hate cops. Really, they bug the living shit out of me.
But as bad as they are, I do appreciate it when they around to take care of assholes who think the world revolves around them. Like that asshole in the UCLA library.
I’m sorry he get tazed too many times for y’all. But you’ll just have to excuse me if I don’t join you in creating a Magnificent Lie around the entire affair, in which the police officers in question are racist sadists who prowl libraries looking for Middle Easterners to harass.
That’s fucking pathetic.
i was attempting to speak in the general, not make a comment about this particular incident; my apologies for being unclear about that. i agree with your point about this being worth investigating — and i’d be much happier if that was done by the justice system; police departments’ “internal investigations” tend to underwhelm me, as that fox just shouldn’t be cleaning that hen house.
I never have to show my student ID to get into the libraries at UC Irvine. So, what’s the deal GWW? You’re not trying to bullshit all of us, are you?
No, I’m trying to address RedMolly’s comment which directly contradicts my own experience at Cal and which also — quite obviously — ignores the basic fact that UCLA does require ID to access at least some of their collections. Nobody gives a crap about UC Irvine’s library in any event.
According to the article linked, he was already leaving when the police arrived.
The same would be true if the cops had, say, shot him dead. What he did is not the issue. To those of us who are not out of our fucking minds, at any rate.
No ID is needed at the PSU campus libraries. Not to enter, not to examine the books (although I believe proof of identity and possibly university status is required to access some of the special collections), not to use the facilities. You can’t use the special computer lab without a university PIN, and you can’t check anything out without the right ID, of course.
Ok, after finally being able to watch the video, my take is that this student was being a belligerent, obnoxious asshole, screaming about “Patriot Act”, “justice”, and using a lot of profanity.
And even though he kept screaming “I said I would leave”, when the cops told him to get up, he just laid there.
IOW, “I’ll leave”
“Ok, get up.”
“No.”
“Get up.”
“No.”
“You’ll be tasered.”
“I said I would leave.”
However, with all that said, from what I saw of the video there was no reason at all to taser the guy. He was already handcuffed, he wasn’t fighting, kicking, or spitting, he was just “going limp’.
So why didn’t the cops just put thier arms under his armpits and drag his idiotic ass out of the library? What stopped them from doing that, and made them go immediately to the taser?
Yes, the guy was an annoying, obnoxious dickhead who wasn’t doing what the cops were telling him to do. But I saw nothing that justified the use of a taser.
I don’t need ID to enter the Berkeley Public Library.
Just thought I’d say that. Why? I have no idea. It’s not relevant but some people seem to think such facts are relevant.
I was shocked enough that this would happen in a university library, but far more shocked that someone on this site would defend the police’s grossly excessive use of force. I’m sure that on FreeRepublic, where they reflexively hate anyone connected with higher education, or indeed anyone with an IQ in triple digits, they’re cheering the cops on, but surely not here.
So why didn’t the cops just put thier arms under his armpits and drag his idiotic ass out of the library? What stopped them from doing that, and made them go immediately to the taser?
I’ll tell you what: the guy was so fucking belligerant and agitated that the cops were afraid that he’d gouge their eyeballs out or worse if they tried to accost him. So according to the own training procedures, they tazed him.
Sure, they could have pepper sprayed him but then they risk getting some of that crap in their own eyes! Ouch!!!!
Better just to go with that nice clean electricity.
But you’ll just have to excuse me if I don’t join you in creating a Magnificent Lie around the entire affair, in which the police officers in question are racist sadists who prowl libraries looking for Middle Easterners to harass.
Oh holy shit, GWW, talk about strawmen. Where in my comment did I say a single word about race or racial profiling?
I’m sure that on FreeRepublic, where they reflexively hate anyone connected with higher education, or indeed anyone with an IQ in triple digits, they’re cheering the cops on, but surely not here.
Who’s cheering on the cops? Nobody.
So much for “reflexive” behavior.
Yes, the guy was an annoying, obnoxious dickhead who wasn’t doing what the cops were telling him to do. But I saw nothing that justified the use of a taser.
You and others are assuming this guy was being treated fairly up to that point and he had no reason to be angry. If I understand what was happening when the video began, he was already making his way toward the exit when one of the cops grabbed him and he started shouting.
Why are you so sure he didn’t have a reason by that point to feel harrassed and to be angry? Does the subsequent behavior of the cops indicate to you that they are rational, reasonable people with a good sense of what’s appropriate?
And if you were a Middle Easterner who finds himself being tasered in a library over a dispute about an ID, you might think of the Patriot Act also.
And read the linked article. His “going limp” was probably the result of being tased.
Oh holy shit, GWW, talk about strawmen. Where in my comment did I say a single word about race or racial profiling?
Oh holy shit, Allison, where did I mention your name?
this would even make sense, were it not for the reports that they had by this point already managed to handcuff him. one wonders how, without accosting him in the doing.
The only one erecting strawmen is you GWW. No one has called the cops racist, and the main point is the repeated tasering of the man after is obvious that he is of no threat.
The only magnificent lie is the one you’ve wrapped yourself in. And stop telling us you hate the cops, I couldn’t think of a more useless thing to include in your argument. It doens’t somehow make you more of an expert in determining whether the cops crossed the line or not.
SO RESPOND to whether you think it is acceptable to threaten someone for asking for your badge number, and to repeatedly taser someone who you have already subdued (ie, on the ground and later in handcuffs).
I’ll tell you what: the guy was so fucking belligerant and agitated that the cops were afraid that he’d gouge their eyeballs out or worse if they tried to accost him.
He was handcuffed, and in their efforts to get him to stand up, the cops had repeatedly put their arms under his armpits (watch the video), and he didn’t do anything violent or agressive.
Maybe he threatened to bite their legs off.
If I understand what was happening when the video began, he was already making his way toward the exit when one of the cops grabbed him and he started shouting.
Yeah, I’ve heard that story. So you think cops in UCLA physically escort people out of libraries for no reason?
I would likely raise my voice and ask ‘what the hell’ if a cop grabbed my arm too and started “escorting” me for no obvious reason.
But I wouldn’t scream my head off like a goddamn freak like Mr. Asshole clearly did.
I’m guessing somebody was off his meds. Anybody want to bet against that possibility?
No one has called the cops racist,
Oh give me a break. Read the thread. Find the numerous references to his name and nationality. The implied relevance of that information is plain as paint.
Max,
You and others are assuming this guy was being treated fairly up to that point and he had no reason to be angry.
That’s certainly a possibility, but it still doesn’t explain why he kept shouting “I said I would leave”, but then every time he was given an opportunity to get up and leave, he refused.
That, plus everything else he kept shouting, makes him at the very least, a dumb ass.
But that isn’t deserving of a tasering.
SO RESPOND to whether you think it is acceptable to threaten someone for asking for your badge number, and to repeatedly taser someone who you have already subdued (ie, on the ground and later in handcuffs).
In the absence of ANY other provocation or extenuating circumstances: of course that’s not acceptable!
Happy?
Do I feel sorry for Mr. Library Loudmouth Asshole? Nope.
Uh, did you read the article, Great White Wonder?
He was trying to leave the library, not enter it. He didn’t produce a BruinCard during the random check and, as he was leaving, was confronted by the cops. They wanted him to leave, he was leaving, so they taser him? Now, I don’t know what the article means by “did not leave immediately”–maybe he continued to search for his BruinCard, maybe he was organizing his belongings, &c.–but he was, by the UCPD’s own account, trying to leave when he was confronted. As for the cops’ behavior, what I wrote Dr. B.’s place addresses that. (Don’t want to clutter too many threads with the same information, after all.)
I must say I’m shocked at GWW’s reaction to this. I always thought he was kind of rational.
Maybe he’s a rent-a-cop under too much pressure.
Unleash the fury, GWW. UNLEASH THE FURY!!!!!
So you think cops in UCLA physically escort people out of libraries for no reason?
Again, if they were behaving inappropriately by the end of the incident, why assume they were behaving appropriately when the incident began? They were behaving like assholes when they tasered a guy who they had handcuffed and who was screaming in pain and commiting the atrocity of “going limp.” So why wouldn’t we assume they were behaving like assholes the whole time?
The implied relevance of that information is plain as paint.
No. I know I haven’t suggested the cops are racist, but that his ethnicity might have affected how HE perceived events.
To me, the guy seemed scared more than anything else. He wanted the people around him to help him. That’s why he was making noise. Seems to me the video proves his fear was justified.
His faith in his fellow students wasn’t.
Oh holy shit, Allison, where did I mention your name?
You’ll have to forgive me for believing that when you start a post with a response to my comment you are responding to me.
You yourself have admitted that there were less-dangerous, non-lethal alternatives to tasing him (ie. pepper spray) that the police did not use, instead choosing the taser because it’s “clean electricity”. That’s disgusting.
Anyway, like RedMolly and craig before me, I’m done responding to you.
I was a police officer in here in Alabama for almost five years. It was pre-taser time, but we did have mace. We were trained to use the mace only in situations where we felt that we were in danger of physical assault, in place of our baton. The assumption was that we were less likely to injure the suspect with the mace. I’m not sure, but I would imagine that the same standards apply to use of a taser. Macing or tasing a suspect while they are on the ground passively refusing to get up; shouting “Stand up or I’ll shock you again!” as the officers do in the video is unquestionably excessive use of force. Once they had him handcuffed, all they needed to do was to hook him under the arms and carry him out, as they finally did after torturing him for a few minutes.
That, plus everything else he kept shouting, makes him at the very least, a dumb ass.
But that isn’t deserving of a tasering
The cops should have instructed his fellow students to sing lullabies until he fell asleep. Then they could have wrapped him in a soft blanket and gently carried him out of the building and tucked him into a bed at the Dickhead Hotel.
Like I said before, we know precious little about what actually happened leading up to the tasering.
For all we know, this guy took a swing at one of the officers when they grabbed his arm to escort him out. That could easily justify the first tasering.
And like I said before, multiple taserings are pure brutality. I’ll just wait to see what the investigation says. I’m pretty sure there will be enough witnesses to the initial encounter to figure it out.
Uh, did you read the article, Great White Wonder?
Uh, yeah. Who wrote it? God?
That’s certainly a possibility, but it still doesn’t explain why he kept shouting “I said I would leave”, but then every time he was given an opportunity to get up and leave, he refused.
There is an explanation. Read the article linked in the post. According to The Lancet, the shocks he was receiving can immobilize a person for 5 to 15 minutes.
The cops should have instructed his fellow students to sing lullabies until he fell asleep
Or, they could have just dragged him out of the library, as they already had him handcuffed and two cops already had their arms under his armpits.
“Ok. He’s handcuffed and Johnson and Stevens have him hoisted up by his armpits and he’s not being violent. Let’s just drag him out of here.”
“No, no. Let’s taser him!”
GWW is right about one thing: the student’s name and nationality were brought up, earlier in the comments, as being “significant,” which can only imply that cops were influenced by it in some way, to some degree.
However, GWW’s refutation of Red Molly’s claim of not being required to show her ID to enter the library is flawed:
In fact, two seconds of Google searching reveals that this remains the case: “The public is welcome to attend these classes [in the library] but must sign-in with Moffitt entrance security monitor. UC Berkeley students, faculty and staff must show campus ID.”
Emphasis mine.
You yourself have admitted that there were less-dangerous, non-lethal alternatives to tasing him (ie. pepper spray) that the police did not use, instead choosing the taser because it’s “clean electricity”. That’s disgusting.
Maybe, but probably true. I’ll also go waaaaaaay out on a limb and suppose that even IF the cops used pepper spray on this loudmouth whining prick that a bunch of students in the library would have been “disturbed” by his howling and we’d be having more or less the same discussion, with commenters playing the racism card and somebody citing the incidences of people being permanently blinded by pepper spray or having a heart attack and dying etc.
Again: I don’t like cops. But I like loudmouthed dickheads even less, particularly in libraries and movie theaters.
However, GWW’s refutation of Red Molly’s claim of not being required to show her ID to enter the library is flawed:
No it’s not. Those classes are IN the library.
Geebus fucking Christ.
There is an explanation. Read the article linked in the post. According to The Lancet, the shocks he was receiving can immobilize a person for 5 to 15 minutes.
The behavior that needs explaining occurs BEFORE the first tazing.
Sigh.
There is an explanation. Read the article linked in the post. According to The Lancet, the shocks he was receiving can immobilize a person for 5 to 15 minutes.
I still can’t get the article to open. But that is definitely a possibility. However, I would think that if that were the case, instead of yelling obscenities and screaming about the Patriot Act, he would have yelled, “I can’t get up, my legs won’t work.”
But, who knows? All we have to go on right now is the video and eye witness accounts.
“No ID is needed at the PSU campus libraries.”
a. Believe me when I tell you that Westwood is a long, long way from University Park, and I’m not talking about kilometers.
b. This was not about entering the library. It was about being in there in the middle of the night. Surely all right-thinking people can see why asking to see proper campus ID (randomly AND, I’ll bet, at the door, at that hour) in a University library in Los Angeles in the middle of the night is a sensible policy.
c. Even in my day at UCLA, and this was way pre-9/11/01, all faculty, staff, and students were required to have their BruinCard on them at all times on campus. I remember this well, because I thought it was stupidly draconian. But I always had my card.
d. It’s not racist to point out that students of Iranian heritage are very far from rare at UCLA. Has been thus for a long time. (I think “Tehrangeles” is kinda funny…sorry. Funnier than “University of Caucasians Lost among Asians,” at any rate.)
e. I sincerely doubt that the guy was zapped the first time with his backpack on and headed for the door. Even Unicops aren’t that brutally stupid.
f. The multiple zappings of a guy already handcuffed is inarguably over the line.
g. boy, oh boy…if I’d’a been there…
Abuse of power, pure and simple.
Before there were tasers, what would they have done?
If he refused to leave, escort him out, in handcuffs if necessary.
These cops should be fired. You don’t use excessive force to subdue someone. They obviously did just that.
Orogeny, thanks for your comment. I work with cops all the time in my job. I have great respect for the large majority of good ones. And on their behalf, as much as on other grounds, I deeply resent the bad actors.
Uh, yeah. Who wrote it? God?
Yes, God instantiated Himself in the form of Julia Erlandson, cub-reporter for the UCLA Bruin, read the official police statement and wrote that article. What can I say? You nailed me.
Of course, you still haven’t accounted for the fact that his immobility and disorientation could easily have been a product of the taser being used repeatedly. Where do I get this biased information? Why, from the thing’s manual [.pdf], of course! (And that’s the manual for the same make and model used by the UCPD. Research does wonders for arguments sometimes.)
GWW: No, I did not fail to notice that the classes are held IN the library.The “proof” you offer only states that one must sign in or show and ID to attend the classes, but says nothing about whether or not signing in, or showing ID, is required to enter the library.
Isn’t that what we’re talking about? Entering the library? When did we start talking about attending classes held in the library?
I’m not saying your unequivocally wrong, only that the information you presented is inconclusive to the subject at hand.
Is there a killfile thingy that works with Safari? If so, would someone be kind enough to post a link to it?
It seems that I have a use for one after all.
My point is that cops carry — and are allowed to carry — tazers and guns, for different reasons. There are good reasons for this. You may not like the reasons.
you say this as if you know what those exact reasons are.
somehow, I don’t think you do, or you would have posted those reasons.
I call shenanigans on GWW.
you’re just trolling for responses here, and it’s pretty obvious, really.
GWW, everyone knows you’re a troll.
GWW: No, I did not fail to notice that the classes are held IN the library.The “proof” you offer only states that one must sign in or show and ID to attend the classes, but says nothing about whether or not signing in, or showing ID, is required to enter the library.
You’re pathetic.
The Doe/Moffit library system is the largest and most well-known library on campus. The entry floor of the Doe Library, located in front of Memorial Glade, contains the Morrison Reading Room, display collections, and computers with Internet, and the circulation desk. To actually enter the library, a student I.D is required.
http://tbp.berkeley.edu/~guide/Libraries
Suck it.
you say this as if you know what those exact reasons are.
No Ickdick, I say that “My point is that cops carry — and are allowed to carry — tazers and guns, for different reasons,” because it’s true.
You, too, are invited to suck it.
It’s always a hoot when the self-congratulating “skeptics” turn into script-reciters and accuse those who refuse to board the bandwagon of being “trolls.”
Next thing I know, some freak from Cornell is going to tell me that the IBWO still exists.
The famous Humboldt County case:
“After only twelve hours of deliberation, the federal jury returned a unanimous verdict finding that Humboldt County Sheriffs used excessive force when they swabbed pepper spray into the eyes of forest activists. The jurors found that former Sheriff Dennis Lewis and current Sheriff Gary Philp approved illegal use of force on passive protestors. The jury also held the City and County liable for its officers’ unconstitutional actions.”
http://www.mindfully.org/Heritage/2005/Pepper-Spray-Eight29apr05.htm
I’m guessing UCLA is going to be out some serious money.
you still haven’t accounted for the fact that his immobility and disorientation could easily have been a product of the taser being used repeatedly.
For the billionth time, my point is that Mr. Loudmouth Dickhead very likely had the FIRST tazing coming to him.
Deserved to be tasered? A taser is used to subdue a suspect who is being combative. It’s not used to teach him lesson. The police don’t get to tase someone then say “Get out of here”. It’s like using a baton on someone then telling them to clear out.
http://www.policeone.com/training/articles/98362/
Also at the start of the video you can hear him telling them not to touch him, then you hear the police say “stand up”, then he gets tased on the video for the first time. The police continued to order him to stand up and tase him at least 3 more times. If they weren’t going to arrest him they had no business tasing him in the first place.
I’m guessing UCLA is going to be out some serious money.
Yeah, there’s no possible way of distinguishing these two cases. That’s because Loudmouth Dickhead was part of an organized protest against the library’s ID policy.
Except that he forgot to tell anybody about the protest.
Oops.
Oh, I believe it. GWW is still wrong that the use of mandatory IDs is somehow inherent in the concept of a university library – but that’s besides the point, as he’s utterly and completely wrong about the appropriateness of using tasers on already-tased individuals.
Jason, I’ve worked with mass spectrometers that have 10 KV power sources, and have been shocked on two occasions. Fortunately, the amperage was very very low (very very very low), so all that happened was I sat down hard and took a while to catch my breath. Had someone been yelling at me to stand up at that moment, I probably would have said some things I’d regret later.
When I watched that video, it seemed pretty damn clear that there was NO reason for tazing the student after he was handcuffed. Three cops, one handcuffed student. Why the hell they didn’t just lift him up and carry him out, I do not understand.
Also at the start of the video you can hear him telling them not to touch him, then you hear the police say “stand up”, then he gets tased on the video for the first time.
Oops, what was that? At the “start of the video” you say? Gosh, I wonder if anything happened before that. You know, like something that would compel the person to turn on the video in the first place.
Ya think?
And yeah you can “hear” all kinds of stuff at the beginning. But you can’t see much, can you? My guess is that the actions of the dickhead which were visible to the police are going to be at least as significant as the words. You think that’s a reasonable guess? I hope you do.
I believe it. GWW is still wrong that the use of mandatory IDs is somehow inherent in the concept of a university library
LOL! I never made any such claim.
You’re such an asshole, Caledonian.
For the billionth time, my point is that Mr. Loudmouth Dickhead very likely had the FIRST tazing coming to him.
So, we are to *assume* that he had the first tazing coming to him. Okay. Then, when the subsequent tazings *proved* that the cops were acting like power-hungry a-holes, we’re still supposed to *assume* that the first tazing was entirely appropriate. Sounds pretty questionable. We’re supposed to *assume* that the cops starting acting like power-hungry a-holes sometime between the first and second tazing – but not at anytime before that. I don’t buy it.
I would definitely agree that something probably caused the person recording it to turn it on but that is a secondary consideration. The only appropriate use of a taser is to subdue a suspect. Once he was subdued they should have arrested him and removed him from the facility. They don’t get to order him to leave, tase him, and then order him to leave again.
You are totally and completely off base here.
Susan,
Had someone been yelling at me to stand up at that moment, I probably would have said some things I’d regret later.
I’m certainly willing to consider that as a possibility, although right now, I have to say it seems more likely that this guy was intentionally being difficult.
When I watched that video, it seemed pretty damn clear that there was NO reason for tazing the student after he was handcuffed. Three cops, one handcuffed student. Why the hell they didn’t just lift him up and carry him out, I do not understand.
Exactly. They even had their arms under his armpits! Just start walking forward and guess what? Before you know it, you’re all out the door.
So, we are to *assume* that he had the first tazing coming to him.
No. Try again, BC. I know you can get it right on your third or fourth try.
Once he was subdued they should have arrested him and removed him from the facility. They don’t get to order him to leave, tase him, and then order him to leave again.
You are totally and completely off base here.
No, I’m on the base. You are off base arguing with a strawman that you’ve erected on that base. Eat your heart out.
LOL… “Suck it.” You’re so gracious.
GWW, my point was that your attempted smack-down of Red Molly was a failure of logic, because your “too seconds” of Googling turned up something that might have, but didn’t quite, support your point – and yet you used it to imply she was lying.
So now you’ve turned up something that suggests your assumption was correct. Good for you! A few more seconds of Googling did the trick!
But what’s the reality?
Do you know?
Was RedMolly a student there? If not, then why would she have to present a student ID to enter? She was talking about her own experiences – how do you know what her experiences have been, and how can you deny them if you don’t know what they are? Have you ever been to that library? Have you ever been asked to present a student ID there? How do you know that requirement is strictly enforced? Maybe it’s sporadically or rarely enforced, and Molly knows it.
It would be interesting to find out, wouldn’t it?
GWW, why are you offering guesses in the first place? What are you basing it on? What evidence do you have?
I really doubt that the guy was being that much of a dickhead before the cops showed up. I reached this conclusion because the guy with the cell phone didn’t start recording before then. Also the video quite clearly shows that the student was near the door when he was tasered. The evidence and implications here support the students and witnesses version of events.
Even if Mr Tabatabainejad had refused to leave entirely (which the evidence suggests is not the case) he was guilty of what? Trespassing. A misdemeanor.
Grumbling and dragging your feet is not an offense.
I’m also guessing amongst the reasons that the other students didn’t physically react were: lack of familiarity with violence (shock, if you will), programming that the police are “the good guys”, confusion and possibly fear.
I would definitely agree that something probably caused the person recording it to turn it on but that is a secondary consideration.
LOL! If the asshole was overheard by the police telling them or somebody that he was going to “fucking kill you if you touch me” that is hardly a “secondary consideration.”
Please folks: get real. When did this site turned into the Official Blog of the Anti-Tazer Alliance?
Ahh I see now. You are either trolling or resorting to the old “It’s my opinion so that makes it right”.
So now you’ve turned up something that suggests your assumption was correct.
On the contrary, dorkus, I simply provided even BETTER (unassailable, frankly) evidence that my KNOWLEDGE of who gets into Cal campus libaries was ACCURATE.
And RedMolly’s knowledge was inaccurate and misleading. That’s a point of fact, now. Get it? And frankly it is bizarre that anyone who had basic knowledge of the UC Berkeley campus would suggest that Cal’s libraries are open to folks without an ID. If they let anybody in, the Cal libraries would be filled with homeless people, street punks, and junkies.
Try to focus on the primary issue of the thread and not on Cal library policy. You’ll be better off.
I really doubt that the guy was being that much of a dickhead before the cops showed up. I reached this conclusion because the guy with the cell phone didn’t start recording before then.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!
Surely this is parody.
I’m also guessing amongst the reasons that the other students didn’t physically react were: lack of familiarity with violence (shock, if you will), programming that the police are “the good guys”, confusion and possibly fear.
Like the fear of being arrested for assaulting an officer?
Yeah, that probably kept from some folks from “intervening” to “save” this poor little loudmouthed dickhead.
GWW
You can shoot unarmed people. I could shoot unarmed people if I wanted to! The question should be whether you may shoot unarmed people. In most cases, police officers cannot use lethal (or potentially lethal) force unless they have reasonable cause to believe either bystanders or police officers are in imminent danger of serious physical harm. For most people, this would imply an armed suspect. Very few people are that big of a threat without a weapon.
As others have repeatedly stated, the main question is not whether the initial tasering was warranted, but whether the police overstepped their bounds in the use of additional attacks. It is obvious that the attacks subsequent to the first tasering were unwarranted.
Also, perhaps the taser affected the student’s ability to gauge proper response to the officers. In any event, yelling at police officers as they repeatedly attack you with potentially lethal force is a perfectly reasonable reaction.
What a lovely statement. This is relevant how?
In most cases, police officers cannot use lethal (or potentially lethal) force unless they have reasonable cause to believe either bystanders or police officers are in imminent danger of serious physical harm.
Great! We agree. And it’s a good thing that the police in this instance didn’t shoot anybody.
Do you think that the same standard applies to use of a tazer that applies to use of bullets? If you do, then you’re wrong. And no I’m not going to hold your hand and lead you to “proof” of that fact. If you choose to believe otherwise, I can’t help you.
perhaps the taser affected the student’s ability to gauge proper response to the officers.
For the ten billionth time, the student’s ability to gauge a proper response to the officers was quite clearly impared prior to the first tazer. How do we know that? Because we can hear the bloody fool screaming his fucking head off at the officers. In a library, where it’s rarely necessary to scream to be heard. That’s a really really fucking dumb thing to do. Do you need me to explain why?
Christ already, stop feeding the troll. We have two sources. A video, which is incomplete, and an article, which purports to be, based on eyewitness accounts and the police report. The UCPD itself doesn’t claim he offered any violence to the police, he just “didn’t do what he was told” and “encouraged library patrons to join his resistance”. From the evidence we have there isn’t any justification for the first, let alone the subsequent tasering. End of story, until the court case.
because it’s true.
and yet, you cite no supporting evidence.
what, are you trying to play a creobot now?
admit it, you’re just trolling here, suck a duck. You clearly have no idea what you are blathering about, you just want to pull chains.
not like this is the first time.
Great White Wonder makes some valid points about this kid probably being an idiot and whatever…and yes, maybe he even deserved the first “tasing” for being disruptive and possibly a threat. This kid wasn’t just sitting reading his book one minute and being tased for no reason the next.
However, GWW, you are an idiot of GIGANTIC proportions if you believe for one minute that a handcuffed individual who had previously been tased was any threat at all and deserved to be tased additional times. I mean, I’ve been tased, and it’s unlikely that he even could walk when they were asking him to get up. It hurts like shit and it makes your knees all wobbly and jelly-like. Not to mention the police threatening to tase the onlookers who were visibly horrified by their violent actions. The second, third, etc. tasings are where this crossed into the threshold of police brutality. I mean the kid was handcuffed for the lack of God’s sake. Threatening to shock him again if he doesn’t stand up and walk out is like saying “we’re going to shock you again for the fun of it.” There’s no excuse for that.
GWW, so you’ve been to Berekely? You’ve been to that library? You’ve experienced this first-hand? A simple yes or no will do.
There’s a big difference between “letting anybody in” and strict enforcement of an ID policy. You think the staff is completely unable to distinguish students from “homeless people, street punks, and junkies?”
What a lovely statement. This is relevant how?
It’s relevant to silencing the reflexive twits here who suggested that this dude was profiled for harassment because he looked Middle Eastern. At UCLA. LOL!!!!!!
Kseniya–a point of clarification, in the interests of full disclosure. I was not a Cal student when I was required to show my ID at the Bancroft. I was a UCSC student and was visiting the rare books collection at Cal so I could look firsthand at a manuscript I was doing a paper on for my class on early Christian art.
That was the only time I’ve ever been to the Bancroft; as far as I know, at that time (1995) there was not a general requirement that ID be shown to enter the rest of the library. When I worked at UC Davis a couple of years later, there was no ID requirement except for checking out books.
That off my chest, I will go back to observing rather than participating…
GWW, so you’ve been to Berekely? You’ve been to that library? You’ve experienced this first-hand? A simple yes or no will do.
How about a simple “read the fucking thread, asswipe”.
That’s a really really fucking dumb thing to do. Do you need me to explain why?
uh, you did hear WHAT he was screaming, yes? he just didn’t start screaming for no reason.
but no reason is exactly why you are continuing to troll, yes?
maybe you should scream a little louder so we can see if tasering you is appropriate?
you should quit while you’re behind.
you get way too wound up about this stuff.
RedMolly
That was the only time I’ve ever been to the Bancroft; as far as I know, at that time (1995) there was not a general requirement that ID be shown to enter the rest of the library.
“As far as you know”??? Nice one.
Before entering the Reading Room, you must stop at the Registration Desk, located to the right as you enter the building, and register to use the library. Bancroft Library readers must be at least 18, or have graduated from high school. Current UCB photo identification is adequate for registration. Others must present two forms of identification (at least one containing a photograph).
http://bancroft.berkeley.edu/info/access.html
This is the policy I remember at least as far back as 1990. It’s a reasonable policy for a University library in the middle of a city filled with wandering homeless freaks.
uh, you did hear WHAT he was screaming, yes? he just didn’t start screaming for no reason.
Did I miss the part where you can hear the cop telling the dude “You’ll have to speak up, sonny, my hearing aid is on the fritz! Louder than that! At the top of your lungs, boy! Try again! Put some heart into it!”
Did I miss that?
If not, then you must have have your head up your ass if you think the dude had a good reason for screaming like a fucking freak in a library.
I just watched the video again. The person starts recording when he hears the student yelling, “Don’t touch me! Don’t fucking touch me!”
Then, before the person with the camera can get to the scene, the student is tasered. While he’s screaming in pain, the cops are shouting at him, “Stand up. Stand up.” Soon thereafter, the student yells, “I have a medical condition”. Meanwhile the cops yell, “Get up. Get up.” Once, they say “Stop fighting us” and the student says, “I’m not fighting you”.
Later, the cops say several times, “Stand up or you’ll get tazed again”.
That seems to make it pretty clear they weren’t tasering the guy because they thought he was a threat or because they feared for their safety. It was, “We’re tasering you because you won’t stand up.”
That is the very definition of unreasonable use of force.
Soon thereafter, the student yells, “I have a medical condition”.
No doubt about that.
The person starts recording when he hears the student yelling, “Don’t touch me! Don’t fucking touch me!”
Uh, more accurately, “the recording starts just before the student yells, “Don’t touch me! Don’t fucking touch me!”
We have no idea what the “camera operator” heard prior to turning the recorder on.
Later, the cops say several times, “Stand up or you’ll get tazed again”.
That seems to make it pretty clear they weren’t tasering the guy because they thought he was a threat or because they feared for their safety
It also makes it pretty clear that they had the tazer voltage turned down pretty low. Probably no worse than get kicking in the nuts or having your ear pulled really hard, which is what the cops were trying to avoid.
Uh, more accurately, “the recording starts just before the student yells, “Don’t touch me! Don’t fucking touch me!”
Well, I’m not sure how the recording would start unless the person with the recorder started recording.
We have no idea what the “camera operator” heard prior to turning the recorder on.
That’s correct. And as I’ve said, I see nothing in the video that justifies the use of a taser at all.
GWW is arguing that a loudmouthed jerk deserves to be repeatedly tazed. I have a little meter in the corner that is pegged and smoking, but I’m going to ignore it.
PZ Myers, I think you should apply GWW’s logic to this thread, substituting disemvoweling for tazing.
It also makes it pretty clear that they had the tazer voltage turned down pretty low. Probably no worse than get kicking in the nuts or having your ear pulled really hard, which is what the cops were trying to avoid.
??????????
First of all, you can see in the video that the student’s physical reaction to being hit by the taser is pretty substantial. This is no friend giving you a static shock on the earlobe.
Second, I’m sure the outrage would be just as justified if the cops had kicked the guy in the balls.
Third, as I’ve pointed out repeatedly, the cops had the guy handcuffed and several times were able to put their arms under his armpits without the student showing any sign of violence at all. Why when they had the student in this position they didn’t just drag him out of the library is a question I’m sure will be asked in the investigation.
“Stand up or you’ll get tazed again”
That’s all you need to hear. That establishes exactly why the cops kept tasering him; he wasn’t standing up.
That is the definition of unreasonable use of force.
I see nothing in the video that justifies the use of a taser at all.
Either do I. But based on what I HEAR and prior experience with how people typically behave in university libraries when asked to present their ID, it’s perfectly clear that the dude in question is behaving in an extraordinarly belligerent and threatening fashion.
But maybe in LA people act like that all the time in libraries. And cops should just let the dude throw his screaming fit for however long he wants. After all, it’s just a library. It’s not like anybody there has anything urgent or important to do which requires a great deal of concentration.
If not, then you must have have your head up your ass if you think the dude had a good reason for screaming like a fucking freak in a library.
so, you’re pretending to be too dense to have concluded that when he was screaming “get your hands off me” that it was because they, uh, had their hands on him?
gee, could it be because they grabbed him, or something?
are you being deliberately obtuse here for a reason, or just for kicks?
ahh, that’s right, now i remember why you were banned from PT, and why everyone here is wasting their time attempting to discuss the issue with you when you get like this.
enough already.
Second, I’m sure the outrage would be just as justified if the cops had kicked the guy in the balls.
Again: reading comprehension 101. The cops were trying to avoid having THEIR balls kicked in by the insane screaming freak.
Emphasis on “insane screaming.” Because that part is pretty clear to everybody except some of the dreaming apologists here.
GWW is arguing that a loudmouthed jerk deserves to be repeatedly tazed. I have a little meter in the corner that is pegged and smoking, but I’m going to ignore it.
Of course. why else do you think GWW is so up in arms about the issue?
gee, could it be because they grabbed him, or something?
Is it inappropriate for cops to touch people who are refusing to leave a building?
Nope. So you have no point. Again.
If you think that the dude was quietly refusing to leave before the cell phone recorder was turned on, you’re deluded.
So try really hard again to come up with a reasonable scenario for what happened. The “sadistic cops who hate Iranians” is pretty much dead in the water. What do you got?
If you think that the dude was quietly refusing to leave before the cell phone recorder was turned on, you’re deluded.
and you have direct evidence to the contrary? from the video or from the article?
Nope. So you have no point. Again.
meds. take em.
GWW is arguing that a loudmouthed jerk deserves to be repeatedly tazed.
Nope. Deserves to be tazed once if he refuses to shut up and leave. How many times I have addressed this strawman in this thread? I think it must be the fourth or fifth time. Go ahead, though: bring it up again. Or call me a troll! That’s real effective.
meds. take em.
Awwww, poor li’l Ickdick is bailing out. Buh-bye!
Actually, yes. The article clearly contradicts the notion that he was quietly refusing to leave. It says he was heading for the door.
Again: reading comprehension 101. The cops were trying to avoid having THEIR balls kicked in by the insane screaming freak.
You stated that you believed the taser was “turned down low”, which would have been “no worse than get kicking in the nuts”.
Kicked in the nuts/hit with a tazer…What’s the difference? Would this situation have been any less controversial if the cops had kicked a handcuffed person’s balls because he wouldn’t stand up?
Also, the cops made it absolutely clear that they weren’t tasering the guy because they feared for their own safety. “Stand up or we’ll taze you again”
Finally, they had no reason to think the student would kick them in the balls. As I keep pointing out, he was handcuffed and they had put their arms underneath his armpits several times without incident. All they had to do was start walking and drag his ass out the door.
Instead, they demanded that a person who had been hit with a taser multiple times and was handcuffed, stand up and walk out under his own power.
because it’s YOU that’s making the stawman.
why don’t you apply a taser to your genitals and tell us if you deserve it?
you are a friggin idiot if you think THREE cops couldn’t haul a student out of a library if they wanted to, without any need for tasers, or mace, or clubs.
oh wait, this has nothing to do with logic on your part, i keep forgetting.
…and it’s getting boring.
and you have direct evidence to the contrary? from the video
Oh, so the dude turned on his cell phone recorded because of some quiet civilized conversation he heard? And just by coincidence the moment he turned it on the shit hit the fan?
Yeah. Right. Notice anything interesting about the folks in the library at the moment the video is turned on?
Use your brain.
…and it’s getting boring
I agree. Later folks.
Use your brain.
you’re the only one here who isn’t.
have fun with that.
I prefer alcohol, myself.
Obviously something prompted him to record. The question is why we should assume it was the student’s behaviour, and not that of the cops, whom we already know acted unacceptably after the recording started.
Also, the cops made it absolutely clear that they weren’t tasering the guy because they feared for their own safety. “Stand up or we’ll taze you again”
Damn, you’re dense. “Stand up or we’ll taze you again” means “We really want to avoid FIGHTING with you, asshole, and risk getting our balls kicked or ears ripped off or eyeballs scratched out or having to put you in a stranglehold, so stand up and move out of here on your own volition or we are going to zap you.”
If it’s me laying there, I’m saying “Okay okay. I’ll get up. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Just don’t taze me again. Please don’t taze me. I’m getting up. See? Thank you. Thank you for helping me.”
Get it? I don’t like pain. I don’t like to piss cops off. But some people do. I think the cops felt like they had seen enough to convince them that this asshole would do everything in his power to fuck with them.
Why? Bcs th frqncy f cps hrssng ppl n nvrsty lbrrs n sch wy t jstfy n nsn scrmng shtft lk ths lsr’s scrmng shtft s cls t fckng nl.
By cntrst, cps rtnly PRPRLY scrt nsnc scrmng shthds t f pblc bldngs VRY FCKNG DY. Rtnly. Tht’s wht plc D.
Ys, t s sd tht hv t tch y ths.
f y wnt t crt n ss, thn lt’s s th fcts. Wht vdnc d y hv tht ths fckng ldmth sshl hd rsn t yll lk ldmth fckng frk t th cps?
nswr: nn. Zlch. Zr.
I prefer alcohol, myself.
Yr mm dd, t, vdntly.
Except that these guys didn’t.
Except that these guys didn’t.
Ys thy dd. Bt fckng shthd rsstd, thrw tntrm, nd gt n th cps fcs, lk n dt.
nd gt tzd. B h h h.
Prosecutor: Is it possible, officer, to escort someone out of a building without using a taser?
Cop: …
Prosecutor: What would you have done if the taser has not been available? Could the three of you gotten him out of the building?
Cop: …
Prosecutor: Do you think causing pain with a taser is an effective means of getting a person to obey you? Did you decide that talking him out of the building would not work? Why?
Cop: …
Those are the questions I would ask.
Those are the questions I would ask.
Gd qstns. f th cp s smrt nd hs gd lwyr, h’ll hv gd nswrs.
wndr wht knd f lwyr Mr. ” Hv Mdcl Cndtn” wll hv?
GWW – come frickin’ on!!!
At the start of the video I watched, you hear the guy screaming IN PAIN while the cops tell him to stand up. You hear the cops tasing him WHILE ORDERING HIM TO STAND.
NO ONE gets up and walks out while being tased. The purpose of the taser is to make it impossible to move, to immobilize the guy, to RENDER HIM IMMOBILE, so the cops can cuff him and render him incapable of further threat. They did that
They rendered the guy immobile, and then they continued to attack him with a weapon that renders him immobile, in punishment for not being mobile. THAT IS UNJUSTIFIABLE USE OF THE WEAPON. No matter what happened before. Period. And yes, I am yelling, hoping it will penetrate your thick skull.
And yes, I do know something about the use of tasers, having volunteered with cops quite a lot on community policing and safety issues in my home city, and having discussions with them about appropriate force for particular circumstances, including explicitly their poor utility in getting people to clear an area.
The very first sounds we here on that video are screams of panic and pain. I am convinced from the sound of his voice that he had already been tased at that point.
The valid use of the taser by those cops, IF there were valid reasons to fear for their safety or those of tothers, would have been to subdue and allow them to handcuff the guy. They did that. At that point, use of weapons, ANY weapons, is no longer valid. That entire vidoeo documents unjustified use of force and unjustified use of weapons ON A SUBDUED SUBJECT. The guy is down, cuffed, immobile – at worst, the cops need to wait for additional officers to help carry him out. At worst.
And again, it is worse that that – the taser is designed to immobilize a person, to render them incapable of mobility. The cops here are tasing the guy and rendering him incapable of mobility, then ordering him to move, and then tasing him again when he doesn’t. They are using a weapon designed to cause immobility, in an attempt to force a guy to move. This is either incompetence in use of a deadly weapon, or it is complete loss of control and outright assault. I cant think of any other explanations.
There is no excuse for any of what I saw in that video.
I see two things that went wrong here: first, there should have been no reason for the student to be in this situation to begin with. When he was asked to leave (before the campus police showed up) he should have left, quickly and quietly, end of story. For him to continue to stay there was asking for trouble, and screaming at the police was asking for more.
Unfortunately, I see this type of mentality in young people way too often (“I’m fixin’ to leave.” “You didn’t give me time.” Etc.).
Second, when he was tasered the first time and effectively subdued, he should have been carried from the building without any further tasering. Simple as that. That would have been more work for the police on the front end, but would have saved alot more trouble in the long run. If he started thrashing and resisting, get an officer on each limb. If he got really violent later on…well…another zap MIGHT then be warranted. Maybe….
Now, whether the first tasering was warranted, I can’t tell for I could not see ANYTHING on the video. It sounded like he was definitely being belligerent, but screaming at cops probably does not warrant such action. But who knows what was really going on up to that first tasering, the camera certainly doesn’t.
The very first sounds we here on that video are screams of panic and pain. I am convinced from the sound of his voice that he had already been tased at that point.
Tht’s n ntrstng thry. dn’t by t fr n scnd.
buy it or not, GWW, it doesn’t invalidate the rest of what I said. Which I note you ignore.
it doesn’t invalidate the rest of what I said. Which I note you ignore.
Thy r pnts whch ‘v ddrss bt twnty tms pthrd, dckfc. Prdn m fr nt gvng y ll th prsnlzd ttntn y crv.
GWW, I see no place where you address the issue of the utility of using an immobilizing weapon on a subdued subject, in an attempt to enforce an order to move. As I said, they wer ordering him to move WHILE TASING HIM, hitting him with a weapon designed to cause loss of motor control and sufficient pain to subdue a subject. No, you did not address that.
I see nowhere that you address the issue that he was subdued, other than by imagining that the cops were afraid he was going to be a threat to them. He was handcuffed and on the ground – your argument on this point is ludicrous.
Something else to think about is that a minor infraction
was turned into a total disaster for everyone involved.
This was a student who was leaving say witnesses.
Maybe the cops had to talk to him, maybe he was not nice,
but does anyone think it had to go this way?
What an incompetent way to handle a simple issue.
Cops should know how to diffuse things, not make it
worse.
Enough, GWW. Way too much. Go sit in a corner and cool off.
The very first sounds we here on that video are screams of panic and pain.
Assuming we saw the same video clip, when the student was yelling “don’t touch me”, to me it sounded like he was being stubborn/hostile when the police tried to physically guide him out of the room. Unfortunately, we can’t see what was actually going on.
The reason why I think that is what it sounds like is because I have been in similar situations. A student is up to no good so I tell him to move on or get back to class. He doesn’t. I tell him again. He gets arguementative and tries to do the exact opposite he was told. I use a gentle guiding hand or I simply block his path with an arm. He screams at the top of his lungs as if i stabbed him in the heart with a spoon.
we can reasonably differ on that.
where there is no reasonable difference, is in what the cops responsibilities are once the subject is subdued – even if we assume he needed subduing in the first place.
Tasing a man and rendering him immobile while ordering him to move, and then tasing him again when he doesn’t, and then further ordering him to move or he’ll get tased again, and then doing it, is way, way outside that. Especially once he was cuffed, and we see that at some point he was cuffed.
Its also notable that none of the students seem to feel threatened by him.
I can’t comment on what happened before the video, or even what happened before the student was in view of the camera, but I think we can all agree the repeated tasing was completely uncalled for.
Oh, and let me be the first to mock GWW for being put in timeout. Haha! Join me in a laugh, and maybe we can give him an aneurysm.
GWW, so you’ve been to Berekely? You’ve been to that library? You’ve experienced this first-hand? A simple yes or no will do.
How about a simple “read the fucking thread, asswipe”.
Here’s the funniest thing about this thread–which I read GWW. The guy arguing that someone deserved to be tasered for screaming etc.–so basically being belligerent is the most belligerent person in the discussion. I recommend that in the interest of scientifically proving whether or not your claim of getting tasered is just like getting kicked in the balls GWW, you get tasered. We can say it’s for being a loudmouth asswipe if it’ll make you feel better.
Yes they did. But fucking shithead resisted, threw a tantrum, and got in the cops faces, like an idiot.
I don’t think you’re a troll, Wonderful White Greatness, but I am beginning to suspect you are a disgruntled former cop. Because you display and defend an attitude that all of us hate to see in cops: The attitude that everyone is supposed to bow unquestioningly to the policeman’s authority, and that defiance is the greatest crime a citizen can commit.
The best cops are professionals who set their egos aside and deal dispassionately with the reality of the situation, without losing their perspective or their temper. The worst cops believe that if you defy their authority, you give them license to do whatever they feel like in defense of their ego.
I know it’s a hard job, probably one of the hardest there is. But if you can’t handle it, then don’t aspire to be a cop. And if you become a cop, and taser some student in the UCLA library because he couldn’t produce an ID and things spun out of control from there, don’t expect my sympathy. You were the guy with the uniform, the authority, the training and the weapons. It’s your fault if the situation got out of control.
I’ve had my fill of assholes too. I resent living in a society that seems to enable and endorse assholish behavior in every way socially and technologically possible. I’m tired of self-absorbed, pouty narcissists imposing on me and mine everytime I take my nephew to the movies or stop my car at a stoplight.
But you need to stop and think again about who the assholes are here based on the evidence we have.
Hey, what’s the big deal? Torture is legal now in this country, did you forget that?
The police officers had no way of knowing whether this so-called “student” knew of other “students” who may not have had their BruinCards with them, and so were in the library illegally. The police officers determined that he had to be tortured, just in case, and we should be happy they were kind enough to oblige. Even Fox news has run experiments with torture and deems it a good thing.
Is this the greatest country ever, or what?
Two technical details:
1. The CLICC Lab (a UCLA computer lab located in Powell Library), where the student was, is open 24 hours Monday-Thursday, so there’s nothing unreasonable about being there at 11:30.
2. I graduated from UCLA less than a year ago, and there was no ID requirement anywhere in the library that I’ve been to — certainly not the CLICC Lab. To log on to the computers, you have to be a registered student, but that’s checked automatically.
Looks like the guy’s lawyer has three or four dozen witnesses to rely on for his case against the police.
No way the cops can win this.
Tasing a man and rendering him immobile while ordering him to move, and then tasing him again when he doesn’t, and then further ordering him to move or he’ll get tased again, and then doing it, is way, way outside that.
Agreed.
Its also notable that none of the students seem to feel threatened by him.
Notable, yes. But relevant? If a totally peaceful, non-threatening person was hanging out in an area they were not supposed to be, does that mean the person has the right to stay? No. Of course, does that earn him a tasing? No.
This video should be used as a prime example of what police should never do. And I wish we could have seen how it all started, because I am almost willing to bet the very beginning of the situation could be used as a prime example of what students shouldn’t do.
Similar story from 2004:
Panel Says Taser Use on Teen Library Patron Justified
A 15-member citizen’s panel unanimously ruled January 6 that Chandler, Arizona, police officer Arturo Salazar was justified when he used an electronic Taser to stun a 13-year-old girl during a library disturbance last fall.
Salazar and Officer Marc Olivier were called to the Chandler Public Library September 29 after a 58-year-old woman reported that someone had thrown a book at her, striking her in the back. According to the police report, the teen suspect was verbally combative and struggled when Olivier tried to lead her from the library. Salazar said he used the Taser to give a five-second electric jolt because he believed the girl was about to kick Olivier, the Phoenix Arizona Republic reported January 10.
According to the Taser manufacturer’s website, the device emits a nonlethal electrical shock of several thousand volts, causing an instant loss of neuromuscular control that momentarily stuns a suspect.
Members of the Chandler Citizen’s Panel for Review of Police Complaints and Use of Force asked officers questions about the device’s safety before agreeing with an earlier internal investigation that found Salazar had not used excessive force and had acted within policy.
“I guess it’s okay for police to victimize our children,” Beatrice Feliz, the teen’s mother, remarked sarcastically after the vote. “It was police brutality.”
Posted January 15, 2004.
http://www.ala.org/al_onlineTemplate.cfm?Section=alnewsjan2004&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=53762
This whole situation makes me question whether the art of talking angry people down has been lost nowadays on the police. I believe somebody above noted that cops must be asked to escort angry people out of public places everyday–that’s for damn sure, and it probably can be accomplished without the use of force if the officers responding try to stay calm and reasonable. Perhaps some of the readers here have had to do the same thingthemselves–maybe talked to an angry customer or somesuch. You usually get the best results by remaining calm but insistent, while getting angry and righteous just makes things worse. Compare the hypothetical result of telling somebody like the kid in this situation, “I’m sorry, but you really do have to leave now. I’ll take you out,” and following him to make sure he goes out the door, to saying, “I’m a cop, now do what I fucking tell you to and get the hell out of here!” In most cases, no doubt, the first response gets the better result.
Quoted because I agree completely.
this dickhead was throwing a gigantic hissyfit that compelled at least one person to fire up his cell phone camera.
Yeah, which automatically means the guy deserved some impromptu shock treatment.
And your “Tehrangeles” comment reveals your racism. Sorry, but you brought it up.
To me it seems obvious that the young man who was tased either perceived or anticipated racial profiling– the “Patriot Act” thing right away– which may explain why he was so aggravated before he was shot.
I’ll tell you what: the guy was so fucking belligerant and agitated that the cops were afraid that he’d gouge their eyeballs out or worse if they tried to accost him. So according to the own training procedures, they tazed him.
To throw your own (idiotic) words back at you: And you were there, right?
And your “Tehrangeles” comment reveals your racism.
LL!
Th Prsns r PRD f th nm. Whr d y thnk hrd t?
The whole security department should be fired and replaced by professionals.
Because you display and defend an attitude that all of us hate to see in cops: The attitude that everyone is supposed to bow unquestioningly to the policeman’s authority, and that defiance is the greatest crime a citizen can commit.
Scrmng lk frkzd ntcs n lbrry whn cps sk y t lv s th “crm.” Lt’s ssm — jst fr th sk f rgmnt — tht ths gy ws sttng thr, wtht D, prfctly wthn hs rghts, rdng bk, whn th cps skd hm t lv.
r y clmng tht s pprprt t thrw hg scrmng shtft tht psts vryn n th lbrry, s tht ppl r gttng n thr cllphns t vd tp y? Y fnd nthng dstrbng bt THT prtclr rspns t bng skd t lv lbrry?
s tht whr scty hs cm n 2006? vry tm thnk my “rghts” r bng vltd, l n th flr nd cry lk frkng bby?
Gbs, ppl, gt grp.
Fr th 100 trllnth tm: th frst tsng f ths dd sms lk t my vry wll hv bn jstfd. Th ltr tsngs? Myb, myb nt. ‘m nt gng t ls ny slp vr t. Why nt? Bcs ll th vdnc sggsts tht th tz n ths cs ws n ss nd, t th nd f th dy, n spt f ll hs cryng, ‘m qt sr h’s jst fn.
Prbbly bttr ff.
rtrn y nw t yr rglrly schdld rd n yr hgh hrss.
Compare the hypothetical result of telling somebody like the kid in this situation, “I’m sorry, but you really do have to leave now. I’ll take you out,” and following him to make sure he goes out the door
100 t 1 dds sys tht ths hppnd. nd thn Mr. “Mdcl Cndtn” dcdd t ply sm gms.
nybdy wnt t bt thrws?
…
…
I wasn’t able to read all the comments here, but the early dozen or so I read talked about the reason for the use of tasers: a non-lethal alternative to guns.
Think about this as we get further into Our Glorious Future: There are any number of “non-lethal” alternative weapons now being developed. Working at a newspaper, I’d see a couple of stories a year about upcoming sonic weapons, etc., all for the use of law enforcement or the military, and all supposedly to save the lives of people who would otherwise simply be shot.
The flaw in the rationale is that these things will ALWAYS (eventually) be misused. Likely they will FREQUENTLY be misused.
These particular campus cops (and probably the whole department) obviously think of tasers as no-sweat electrical arm-twisters. They will use them blithely, without hesitation, and on anybody who balks them in any way, even verbally. After all, nobody gets injured, right? I believe I remember reading that tasers have been used against children as young as 6.
In my mind, there is no doubt that the upcoming crop of non-lethal weapons will bring a wave of new violence against individuals by authority figures authorized to use them.
So they next time you read a glowing story about non-lethal weapons being developed for police and military use, hesitate before you celebrate.
…
…
What’s that, GWW? I can’t quite make out what you’re on about . . .
Similar story from 2004:
Panel Says Taser Use on Teen Library Patron Justified
A 15-member citizen’s panel unanimously ruled January 6 that Chandler, Arizona, police officer Arturo Salazar was justified when he used an electronic Taser to stun a 13-year-old girl during a library disturbance last fall.
Prcsly.
t cn’t b mphszd ngh: t’s LBRRY. t’s nt strt crnr. t’s nt ftbll gm. t’s nt rck cncrt.
t’s lbrry. Bhvng lk ths frk dd *n lbrry* snds mssg t plc. Th mssg s: ” m gng t b s ffnsv s pssbly cn n THS plc t THS tm.”
Th plc’s nswr: “Tst th zn.”
Sr, t’s dstrbng. t’s dstrbng bcs lbrrs r sppsd t b QT. Ths gy wsn’t gng t lv wtht hrtng hmslf r smn ls.
Gss wh gt hrt?
I’ve been concerned about the sonic vibratory weapons intended to make people feel ill by causing their intestines to resonate (possibly inspired by the legend of the “brown note”) for some time now. Granted that resonances within the body are generally very well damped, what happens if someone aims the beam at someone’s skull and finds the correct frequency to make the bone resonate? Couldn’t that conceivably have very nasty consequences for the brain?
what happens if someone aims the beam at someone’s skull and finds the correct frequency to make the bone resonate?
Hv y bn wtchng Brbrll gn, Cldnn?
Interesting GAO Report on Tasers.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=gao&docid=f:d05464.pdf
Looks like California is leading the way in use of tasers just about anytime!
The placement of the Taser on the use-of-force continuums of the agencies varied. Specifically, we found that the seven agencies placed the Taser at three different levels on their use-of-force continuums. As shown in table 1, two agencies–the Sacramento Police Department and the Sacramento Sheriff’s Department–permit the use of Tasers when a police officer perceives the situation as potentially harmful, as when a subject engages in assaultive behavior that creates a risk of physical injury to another. Impact weapons, such as night sticks and batons, can also be used in these situations. They include, for example, instances in which a subject attacks
or threatens to attack an officer by fighting and kicking.
Four other police departments–the Austin Police Department, the Ohio Highway Patrol, the Phoenix Police Department, and the San Jose Police Department–allow the use of Tasers at a lower level in the use-of-force continuum in situations that the officer perceives as volatile. This occurs, for example, when a subject is actively resisting arrest but not attacking the officer. The use of chemical sprays12 to subdue the subject is another option in such a situation. Finally, one agency–the Orange County Sheriff’s Department–allows the use of Tasers in situations that an officer perceives as tactical, such as when a subject is “passively resisting” by not responding to the lawful, verbal commands of the officer. See p. 9
I’m not very proud of my State tonight.
the Orange County Sheriff’s Department–allows the use of Tasers in situations that an officer perceives as tactical, such as when a subject is “passively resisting” by not responding to the lawful, verbal commands of the officer.
*sigh*
to think i was born there; also the birthplace of the neocon movement, and current home of Howard Ahmanson.
makes me sick to think about it.
The Bancroft Library at UC Berkelely has long required ID, and won’t let anyone in without a specific reason for being there. That’s because it houses one of the most valuable rare book collections in the world.
I’d see a couple of stories a year about upcoming sonic weapons, etc., all for the use of law enforcement or the military, and all supposedly to save the lives of people who would otherwise simply be shot.
it’s all about Phasers, baby!
HSV Technologies, Inc is a San Diego company with a focus on non-lethal weapons that can disable an attacker without causing permanent damage. Their US Patent #5,675,103 combines the laser ionization technology with an effective tetanizing high-voltage frequency — similar to that found in commercial Taser⢠products.
http://www.americanantigravity.com/phasers.shtml
or check out the HSV site:
http://www.hsvt.org
btw, this isn’t really “news”; they’ve been testing the applicability for this tech for law enforcement and military apps for years now.
Imagine being able to completely disable a car simply by firing an ionizing laser at it?
abuse, here we come!
The cops’ mindset is the scariest thing. It seems to be that “authority must be obeyed at all times, no matter what.” That is not consistent with the student’s constitutionally protected rights, which place his inalienable rights far above any sort of convenience achieved by granting limited authority to officers of the peace.
I’m sure it would be much more convenient to give police officers unlimited power to use and abuse as they saw fit, but such an arrangement is totally incompatible with the concepts of freedom and liberty for which our forefathers fought and died. Freedom is far more important than being quiet in a library or being cooperative with police.
more here:
http://weblog.timoregan.com/2006/11/ucla-student-tasered-4-times-for-not.html
“Tehrangeles”
Oh, that’s about the end of this conversation now. I don’t need to be arguing with bigotted morons.
Quick, somebody get the smelling salts.
Why are you so sure he didn’t have a reason by that point to feel harrassed and to be angry? Does the subsequent behavior of the cops indicate to you that they are rational, reasonable people with a good sense of what’s appropriate?
Being angry doesn’t give him the right to shriek at the top of his lungs in a campus library in the middle of the night. Perhaps the young man could have found a more productive outlet for his hurt feelings, such as going home and posting blog comments about how he’s not scared to take on the pigs, maaaan.
That said, tazing him after he was already immobilized, and threatening bystanders with it, was wrong.
So, we are to *assume* that he had the first tazing coming to him. Okay. Then, when the subsequent tazings *proved* that the cops were acting like power-hungry a-holes, we’re still supposed to *assume* that the first tazing was entirely appropriate.
It *proves* they were acting like power-hungry a-holes? It’s not possible that they found themselves surrounded by an angry crowd, panicked, and did exactly the wrong thing? No, they couldn’t be incompetent, it’s *proven* that they’re jackboot robot thugs.
No, they couldn’t be incompetent, it’s *proven* that they’re jackboot robot thugs.
not like it would be a new phenomenon, though, right?
or did you miss the whole “sixties” thing?
or the riots in LA in the 90’s?
gees, take your pick. I swear, all these comments about how righteous the cops are around LA, made by those who seem to have forgotten the strains and pains the dept. had to make in response to REPEATED violations of civilian rights and excessive use of force. How many LA police chiefs have been ousted over the last 30 years because they couldn’t properly manage “the troops”?
the LA police dept. has perhaps one of the worst records nationally on these issues, and they know it. While they take baby steps to correct it, it still goes on and on.
I would suspect it has much to do with the availability of recruits to begin with, and so the issue is a difficult one to control. However, regardless of how this specific case goes down, the idea that the response to this is simply one of a “knee jerk” variety belies the history of the police in this region.
Being angry doesn’t give him the right to shriek at the top of his lungs in a campus library in the middle of the night.
And “shrieking” in a library doesn’t in and of itself give anyone the right to tase him, either.
I really don’t get this whole “he was loud in the library so he had it coming” line of argument. Are you people advancing this idea a bunch of really frustrated librarians or something?
Perhaps the young man could have found a more productive outlet for his hurt feelings, such as going home and posting blog comments about how he’s not scared to take on the pigs, maaaan.
You know, I’m sorry you guys are such pansies. I’m sorry you live in fear of petty authority. But it wasn’t always that way. Or maybe we poli-sci/econ majors are just less sissy than you bio majors. We don’t blog about this shit. We throw hands. And the pigs usually respect us for taking a stand. Fuck you, pussy.
That kid was scared. He was being tortured. And his fellow students should have come to his aid. If I’d been there, I would have come to his aid. If any man had been there, he would have come to his aid.
And “shrieking” in a library doesn’t in and of itself give anyone the right to tase him, either.
Was he not shrieking? “DON’T TOUCH ME! DON’T TOUCH ME!” I heard shrieking.
And I don’t know if they necessarily should have tazed him just for that, but the tone in his voice is not that of a person who is just minding his own business and being reasonable. Makes me skeptical, that’s all.
Or maybe we poli-sci/econ majors are just less sissy than you bio majors. We don’t blog about this shit. We throw hands. And the pigs usually respect us for taking a stand.
That seems very, very plausible.
Fuck you, pussy.
After you.
You know, I’m sorry you guys are such pansies. I’m sorry you live in fear of petty authority. But it wasn’t always that way. Or maybe we poli-sci/econ majors are just less sissy than you bio majors. We don’t blog about this shit. We throw hands. And the pigs usually respect us for taking a stand. Fuck you, pussy.
hey! it was a computer science library, IIRC, not a bio library.
we don’t (well, I can truthfully only say “didn’t” as it’s been a while) stand for cops at all in the bio library at berkeley, so the incident never would have likely occured to begin with.
:)
Power and paranoia are dangerous things, particularly when they are in the hands of ‘little’ people.
It seems to be all too prevalent these days.
PS How’s it going Ichthyic?
heyo. sorry it’s been so long since our last communication.
I’ll catch up with you tommorrow.
cheers
or did you miss the whole “sixties” thing?
“Exhibit A, your honor: The ’60s!”
Nope, didn’t miss that, nor Rodney King, nor any of the other LAPD shenanigans. Just not sure how that *proves* these guys are fascists as opposed to incompetent screwups.
Just not sure how that *proves* these guys are fascists as opposed to incompetent screwups.
there’s a meaningful difference?
explain.
then explain the rationale behind the OC police dept. policy on taser usage.
I grew up there, saw the issues firsthand.
nothing seems to have changed in the 25 years since i left; except it’s WAY more crowded now.
Just not sure how that *proves* these guys are fascists as opposed to incompetent screwups.
there’s a meaningful difference?
explain.
Here ya go.
then explain the rationale behind the OC police dept. policy on taser usage.
I’m not saying you’re wrong about it being abused. I’m just not seeing any *proof* yet that these particular officers are “power-hungry a-holes.” It’s not the only possible motive, that’s all.
If any man had been there, he would have come to his aid.
Would you mind not calling people women to insult them, please? I’m sure there are “pussies” who would be just as eager to heroically throw themselves into the firing line as you seem to be.
It’s not the only possible motive, that’s all.
agreed.
it’s just that you see the same thing over and over again, and some conclusions begin to seem more probable than others.
it’s just that you see the same thing over and over again, and some conclusions begin to seem more probable than others.
Could be. I just tend to go with the old adage about not ascribing to malice what can be explained by incompetence. Either way, they messed up and now it’s on YouTube for everybody to see. That’s gotta suck.
Tried to read this whole thread – it circles around a number of points repeatedly. Here are my observations.
Mace – very bad idea to use it in an enclosed space full of people.
Tasing – I have been shocked and it leaves you all wobbly. Assuming taser is similar experience he couldn’t comply with the order to stand up.
Being a jerk – Yes, the guy probably is a jerk. He probably wasn’t complying fast enough for them, something like “let me finish sending this email” or “let me log off” or something like that, and they got physical with him.
Intervening on his behalf – very bad idea. It is simply not in my power to take on three armed policemen. The best way I could possibly help him is to stand silently back with my digicam, and take the clearest, steadiest video and stills I possibly can instead of hiding behind cubicle walls. True, that is not risk-free but it is a good bit less risky than getting between police officers and their target.
I have a healthy respect for the danger of excitable policemen. The cops here in our county in Illinois seem to shoot someone every three or four years, under circumstances that just don’t make sense to me.
Would you mind not calling people women to insult them, please? I’m sure there are “pussies” who would be just as eager to heroically throw themselves into the firing line as you seem to be.
Look, I’m an old-school feminist. I certainly don’t think it’s insulting to be feminine. I just believe there are certain obligations to violence that men have in the interest of structuring violence in a positive way. Women don’t have these obligations. Physical violence falls within the masculine domain just as childbirth falls within the feminine domain.
But I would probably be more careful about my language if I weren’t so disgusted by the video, and if I were more composed. I understand your point.
“Two technical details:
1. The CLICC Lab (a UCLA computer lab located in Powell Library), where the student was, is open 24 hours Monday-Thursday, so there’s nothing unreasonable about being there at 11:30.”
I don’t think anybody has suggested it was unreasonable for a student to be in the library at 11:30. I did suggest that it was not unreasonable to check IDs at that hour.
“2. I graduated from UCLA less than a year ago, and there was no ID requirement anywhere in the library that I’ve been to — certainly not the CLICC Lab.”
You are apparently incorrect:
“Routinely checking student identification after 11 p.m. at the campus library, which is open 24 hours, is a policy posted in the library that was enacted for the protection of our students.” [my emphasis]
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=7513
Either way, they messed up and now it’s on YouTube for everybody to see. That’s gotta suck.
for them? big time. for their dept? even moreso.
for us?
it gave us hours of entertaining debate.
for the victim/defendant?
$
True dat. They’ll probably end up naming a building after the kid.
They’ll probably end up naming a building after the kid.
naw, they will, as quietly as possible, try to settle this matter out of court.
unless they are absolutely convinced they were right in their usage of force, which I doubt highly.
as mentioned, there is a clear, chargeable case of assault that could be filed against one of the officers that threatened the person who asked for their badge number.
regardless of what happens to the kid, that is on record and could cause just as big a stink.
this will be dealt with behind the scenes as much as possible, and I give it a 50/50 chance that you will never see the details of the resolution of it in print.
at best, i would expect the university to make a quick statement about the issue in a week or so.
one of the cops (at least) will be let go, regardless of actual fault in order to stem the bleeding(though, again, there is no question of violations being involved).
…and two months from now, it will be entirely forgotten.
there are many things learned from the Rodney King case, and not all of them were about guilt or innocence.
I watched the beginning of the video twice because some things weren’t clear. They still aren’t. I think a case can be made that the video started up after the student was tased the first time, but the person who took it may be the only one who knows for sure. At any rate, even if and that’s a big “if,” the initial use of the taser was justified, the subsequent uses were not.
One thing to consider, quite aside from effects of the taser on muscle control is how readily can anyone get up from a prone position with their hands cuffed behind their backs? I don’t think I could, but I’m neither especially athletic, nor very flexible. Put the two together, and of course he can’t get up.
*sigh* I suspect that he was yelling and cursing because he didn’t want to admit to being scared.
“GWW is arguing that a loudmouthed jerk deserves to be repeatedly tazed”
Actually, he’s repeatedly suggested that a loudmouthed mentally ill person deserves to be tazed. I’m not saying this student is mentally ill, but GWW certainly suggested it with his crack about “being off his meds” and “having a medical condition.”
So not only is GWW in favor of subjecting people to potentially lethal force for the crime of being loud and annoying, he’s also in favor of subjecting them to potentially lethal force for the crime of being mentally ill.
What a fucking winner.
Worst.
Pharyngula comments thread.
Ever.
We seriously need a “cast page” for the regulars, because I’m afraid I’m going to forget GWW’s behavior here, at some point, just like I always remember that I have an opinion about Caledonian, but never what it is.
What was even his point? That we should all concentrate on what may or may not have provoked the first tazing, and ignore the actual visual record of a prone individual being repeatedly tazed? I know he said repeatedly that he wasn’t arguing that subsequent tazes were warranted, but how is his wild speculation about what happened before that the most important part of the story?
Oh, and Max, seriously, point us to the youtube video of you taking the fight to the man, or turn down the Rage and stop running your apparently teenaged yap. Although, admittedly, talking about your mad melee combat skills on the internet makes you crazy dangerous. Ooh, ooh, and where do engineering students fall on the great scale of rebellious kick-assitude?
Ok I just read an account on the 13 year old girl who got tasered in the library. Completly different situation. She first assaulted a 58 year old women by throwing a book at her, then started screaming obscenities. When the police showed up she attacked them and when they had pulled her down, she tried to kick them. So they tasered her… once to get her compliant and then handcuffed her and arrested her.
I fail to see how any of that is in any way similiar to this. If anything it shows that you can assault an elderly woman and scream all you want and you don’t get tasered until you actually attack the police. Then the police respond by getting you to stop attacking them… with ONE use of a taser.
This shows the difference between two disturbances and why this one was so WRONG
GWW:
Oh, I’d agree with that statement: somebody’s definitely “off his meds”, alright. However, I venture we’re not thinking about the same person…
“Ooh, ooh, and where do engineering students fall on the great scale of rebellious kick-assitude?”
Not very high, I’m afraid. On the other hand, the most disturbance you’re likely to get from a group of engineering students is when we are arguing a bit too loudly over the right equation to use for the Statics homework due the next morning.
A lot of people are trying top justify tasering the person, or saying why it might have been okay.
It is not okay to do this. Period. It’s wrong. That’s a human being. He could have been escorted out of the Library (like in the old days? When every cop did not enter a situation with stun gun at the ready. Remember?).
I find it appalling that a student was subjected to that kind of treatment.
This is not the direction we want our society to go in. Ever.
I’m flattered, but if you can’t remember what your opinions are of people, you have problems that a cast page won’t help. (And for the record, your opinion of me is that I’m insufferably smug.)
We can’t say much about the events that we didn’t see on tape, but those that we did are utterly indefensible, regardless of what happened before. There simply is no justification for those actions. It doesn’t matter if the student was or wasn’t a threat, because the multiple taserings weren’t applied even remotely rationally in the first place – and threatening to taser the crowd is just insane.
‘Victims’ can be to blame sometimes, too, but there is nothing the student could have done that would have made the actions of the authorities here appropriate. Nothing. If he had done something truly violent and threatening just moments before the clip we saw began, then the campus police should still have acted differently.
Unfortunately, our society is filled with people who want authority to have power and wield it indiscriminately (as long as it’s not wielded at them), that think society should be ruled with an iron fist. It would seem that GWW (or GWB, as I like to think of him) is one of those people.
Some points:
>> We seem to have a bit of an authoritarian trend in the country which is a bit disturbing
>> It is hard not to get angry when someone is being a jerk, but police must stay calm or things can escalate
>> Police should not punish for behavior, but should use the least possible force to gain control of a situation. This is hard as well.
>> I think a soft approach would have worked better here, but hindsight is 20/20. I think you should aways start with a soft approach and not be in a huge hurry or whatever. A little patience here would have helped a great deal.
L.A. Times today:
The incident follows the recent announcement that four of the campus police department’s nearly 60 full-time sworn officers had won so-called Taser Awards granted by the manufacturer of the device to “law enforcement officers who save a life in the line of duty through extraordinary use of the Taser.” The award stemmed from an incident in which officers subdued a patient who allegedly threatened staff at the campus’ Neuropsychiatric Hospital with metal scissors.
Jeff Young, assistant police chief, declined to indicate whether any of the honored officers were among the several involved in Tuesday’s incident.
So a gun manufacturer is now dictating police policy. Nice.
In my own defense, you’re not really “people” to me, you’re a vague outline of a personality attached to a string of characters. If I have a hard time putting names to the faces and personalities of people I’ve met, how can I be expected to keep track of which snarky internet wit is which, when they’re not a terribly rare commodity?
Nine students were arrested Thursday after leading a protest inside the UC Board of Regents meeting and refusing to exit the room when police officers tried to remove them.
The student protesters – who were from UC Santa Barbara and UC Santa Cruz – attended the regents meeting at UCLA as representatives of “Fiat Pax,” which defines itself as a coalition aiming to “demilitarize the UC” and whose membership includes University of California students, faculty and staff opposed to the UC’s management of nuclear laboratories.
http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38998
What? No Tasering?
Point taken. Nevertheless, having strong opinions about empty labels (which are all our handles are, after all) is something humans are usually very, very good at. I find it disturbing that anyone could confuse me with GWW.
I thought racist commentors got disemvowelled here.
Nevermind, I scrolled through more and see that they are disemvowelled. There were only so many of those posts that I could stand to read.
To put it another way, nobody likes cops more than you do. And yet you later claim that this proves that you hate cops. I call Freudian slip. You got it right the first time.
Because it’s unheard of for racists to say things like “I’ve got lads of black friends. but…”, right?
Yeah, I’m convinced that that proves you can’t possibly be a racist.
“All I know is the boys at UCLA are a bunch of pussies. . . . Jesus, what a bunch of pussies.”
Nothing like a nice big load of misogyny to show how “tough” you are.
While reluctant to take on the role of Defender of GWW, I missed the racism…where was it exactly?
“Tehrangeles”?
come on.
CCP:
I don’t think he was specifically being racist, but when someone pre-emptively says “I’m not racist, because I have lots of black friends, but…” it tends to set alarm bells ringing.
If he hadn’t said that, I don’t think I’d have found anything in his posts to indicate racism.
While reluctant to take on the role of Defender of GWW, I missed the racism…where was it exactly?
“Tehrangeles”?
come on.
Wow, did you read his posts? Tehrangeles is pretty damn racist. Using the “I’ve got loads of Iranian friends..” bullshit. Please. Look at his posting name for crying out loud.
Or I guess I’m just too sensitive because my ancestors are from the middle east.
GWW’s problem is not that he’s stupid (he’s not)…
…or way off base on his points (he’s not)…
… or that he demonstrates an obsessive need to be “right” (although he certainly appears to)…
… or that he’s a racist (I see no compelling evidence to suggest he is) …
… it’s that he’s a rude prick to everyone, from word one, whether he’s been agreed with, disagreed with, provoked, or not.
It’s too bad, because it prevents him from having anything resembling a conversation with anybody.
GWW: “Man, nobody dislikes police less than I do.”
But you’re making one hell of an effort to defend their use of excessive force against an unarmed civilian. Your hypocrisy disgusts me, GWW.
Good eyewitness account:
http://www.blakeross.com/2006/11/17/on-the-ucla-tasering/#more-246
Account from eyewitness UCLA student Mher (last name withheld):
The first thing I noticed was the student shout “don’t touch me” the very first time when he was still as his desk (a little earlier than when the camera began to roll I believe. I was about 30 feet away from him.) I hadn’t noticed the policemen come in. I looked over and I saw the student standing up, his hands were in the air in a very “get your hands off me” manner. One of the police officers did in fact have his hands on him and was grabbing one of his right arms, or maybe more but I didn’t pay too much attention to it right away (I was doing work on the computer). I returned to typing as it seemed that he was just going to escorted out. I thought the incident was over then and went back to my paper. A very short time later (maybe I’d estimate 30 secondsish) I heard him again, but this time farther down by the exit of the computer lab, shouting “don’t touch me” and soon after the shock.
I was stunned and I think most other people were stunned as well. One girl started trotting over from where I was and said “you can’t do that”. I got up soon after and walked over. I didn’t see what happened before the first shock, but I soon approached and saw him held on the ground by the officers and in the midst of being cuffed. I don’t know if he had been struggling up to this point, but when I got there he was pretty much subdued and the officers were doing the struggling (turning him over to finish cuffing him, manhandling him pretty much). He yelled a few things during this time and you can hear it all on the video. Then the officers were dragging him up from his arms and demanding that he stand up. He looked really messed up at this point, as if he had just ran a race or something. His face was kind of pinkish (probably from the shock and all the shouting) and his body was slumped. I started saying to him “get up dude, just get up”, and I think some other people may have been encouraging him. He wasn’t making a move and just about then they shocked him again.
At this point a couple of other students and I started shouting back at the cops. I hadn’t seen what led to the first shock, but I did see the time in between and the second shock was completely unjustifiable. He was definitely not being violent, he wasn’t moving, at all. A few of us were shouting as they led him down the stairway and shocked him right there going down and he fell pretty hard on the tiles of the steps (I think you can see him flying up on the video). They dragged him down to the entrance foyer and there I, and a couple other students became more vocal. The CSOs were trying to block us off at this point, but they were porous and few. Several students had been demanding badge numbers, but the 2 officers had obviously not responded up to that point, and never did. (The student was shocked AT LEAST two more times before he was finally dragged out of the building.)
In the foyer, there were a few other officers. One of them came to approach us. One other student and I started speaking with this officer, saying mostly 1) this student is being assaulted by these officers and you have to stop this and 2) we want the names and badge numbers of all the officers there. He told us that we would get them and that we needed to calm down. The student was pretty much motionless at this point except for the few times he was being tased. We continued complaining as the student was being dragged out, but he was badly obscured at this point by several officers and security guards. Then another officer approached me directly and told me to back up, to which I replied with some witty remark about the limits of his authority in the situation. He told me again to back up, and I said something like “I just want your badge numbers” and he told me again to back up right now and that if I didn’t move back I would be tased too. I didn’t move and looked at him directly, at which point he raised his taser gun and pointed it at me (I saw the red light glow right in the center of it) and said “try me”. I turned around and lifted my hands.
I walked around and approached the other officer I had talked to earlier. I again asked for badge numbers. One of the officers (can’t clearly remember which one or what number it was) responded with a single three digit number (which I am assuming was his own) and I saw the officer who had threatened me earlier walking out. I was held up for a couple seconds when the badge numbers of the two assaulting officers were given then walked out to follow the officer who had left. He was down below the stairs where there were about 5 police cars parked all facing the library. I trotted down and he immediately started approaching me. I said “I want your badge number”. He continued approaching me and pointed his taser gun at me again and told me to go back inside.
I walked back inside and started talking to people. I kept asking if anyone got all their badge numbers. One student assured me that he had gotten them. The whole place was buzzing at this point. People were talking, discussing, encouraging each other about doing things about it (which including calling news sources, writing to the chancellor, the regents, and the police department, etc.) It was here as I was talking to people that I first discovered that the initial violation had been that he didn’t show identification. I persistently asked everyone I talked to if the officers had ever stated that they were arresting the student or if rights had been read. I even spoke to the student who was sitting near him when the officers first approached. Everyone of the students I spoke to said that they had heard no mentions of arrest or Miranda rights. We pieced the story together, bits and pieces, there among us all.
I went back and packed all my stuff and went for a coffee at the vending machines and made a call out to someone I knew from the daily bruin. When I returned another student was being kicked out of the library for an unrelated event by the two officers I had spoken to. I recognized the student and greeted him. They were very rude to both of us and continued to be as they got his information and eventually left. I went back in and finished what work I had to do and eventually went home.
(like in the old days? When every cop did not enter a situation with stun gun at the ready. Remember?).
er, not that I’m playing devil’s advocate, or anything, but yeah, i do remember the days when they used to carry large wooden sticks called billy clubs, and used them to great effect.
are those the “old days” you were thinking of?
I think you’re wrong about the underlying attitudes having changed for the worse; it’s more just the tools that have. In fact, if we substitute “taser” for “billy club”, I’d say the Kampus Kops of today are far less prone to violent interactions with students than say, the Berkeley Kampus Kops of the late 60’s/early 70’s.
Sigh. I know the troll has been eliminated, and several people alluded to this point, but I did want to respond to this from way upthread: But I wouldn’t scream my head off like a goddamn freak like Mr. Asshole clearly did.
I’m guessing somebody was off his meds. Anybody want to bet against that possibility?
If GWW were to actually go and read the news reports, say from the LA Times and San Francisco Chronicle, he would find out that the student clearly gave the reason for beginning to yell. He was gunshy about racial profiling from the minute it started (maybe from, oh, everything that’s happened in the last 5 years) and when they started waving the Taser at him he started yelling specifically to attract the attention of everyone else in the hopes that the police wouldn’t use such force if there was a crowd of witnesses. We don’t have to speculate about that. He said that was why.
I also read today that he has retained a lawyer, which is a very good thing.
Tehrangeles is pretty damn racist.
Guess NPR and the New York Times are racist too.
I still remember the Rodney King beating, the acquittal of the officers in state court, and the resulting LA riots. In my view, the line was crossed at the acquittal: war was declared. My view was that they had to riot, but they should have chosen their targets better — the LAPD buildings would have been fair targets for the firebombs. (BTW, the LA riots were nothing compared with what the US did to Baghdad in either Gulf War.)
The point is that even though in any sane world, the case against the officers in this situation would be a no-brainer, the world isn’t sane. There’s no guarantee that the courts will deliver justice. We might have nothing but vigilantism left to deal with thugs in uniform.
Well god damn, those officers should have their ass’s kicked for doing that.
I saw that one video on TV where the police were chasing a guy who was in possession of dope. They sent a dog after him. The dog grabbed the guys ankle and started jerking him back and forth. The two policemen caught to them. One of the officers put his knee into the back and told him to stop fighting back. The kid couldn’t have been anymore than 19yrs old and he’s not fighting back he is just laying there screaming “Don’t let the dog kill me I’m sorry I’m sorry.”
The officers attempted to pull the dog off but it wouldn’t obey them, it tore into the kids leg tearing through the flesh. The police just kept telling the kid stop fighting back and the dog will stop attacking.
By the time that they had had gotten the dog off the kid.
The kid was laying on the ground with his right leg soaked with blood and he was crying saying “I’m sorry, I’m sorry please don’t let the dog kill me, I’ll do whatever you want, just please don’t let me die.”
That was really sad, especially because the cops were unable to control their dog.
IANAL, and I don’t play one on the internet either, but I do not believe reading a suspect his rights is required when he is arrested (Canada and USA); rather they’re a requirement before some forms of questioning. I do not know the legal significance of failing to tell a suspect he’s under arrest.
Andrew Wade said:
Further to my previous post, I recommend John Bad Elk v US 177 U.S. 529 as remedial reading to GWW and John Treacher and anyone else who thinks that the student had no right to resist unlawful arrest.
Generally in the US, there is no right to resist unlawful arrest — if in fact, it is clear that he is being arrested. However, there is the right of self-defense. In Texas, for example, once a cop uses excessive force, the law of self-defense is the same against the cop as it would be against a private citizen or a criminal.
In this case, if the state or the court doesn’t allow self-defense, it’s probably time for vigilante justice. Since this was aggrevated assault, it doesn’t matter whether the student was “under arrest.”
John H Morrison
That isn’t actually apparently the case. The general rule is that there is a right to resist arrest at common law based on the law of provocation – see John Bad Elk – but what has happened since that case is that many states have abrogated the general common law rule. In fact, under the Californian Penal Code section 834a the right is abrogated in California; so to that extent GWW and John Treacher were right. The right to resist excessive force in the course of an unlawful arrest seems to remain, however.
I am shocked that the US, which generally has been ahead of the UK in protection of suspects’ civil rights, has so widely abrogated that common law rule; it was the fact that the US was usually ahead that led me to take the case at face value, and not check state penal codes…