I’m about to drive to Minneapolis for the American Atheists conference. I’m not as enthused as I ought to be.
Atheism is an important topic, especially given the ascendance of destructive Christianity in this country, but so much of the atheist movement has become orthogonal to everything else I value — somehow people can be libertarian atheists or conservative atheists without feeling any conflict with the movement, and that bugs me.
I’ve paid for it, and there are some good people there I’d like to see, so I guess I’m going to go anyway. Maybe I’ll be revitalized.
It would be cool if Mehta and Genetically Modified Skeptic are there and y’all chill for a moment. That would cause certain others who you mention above to go apoplectic.
Best wishes and hope it goes well fro you and works out. I hope at leats it give syoua chanc etoplan with others and woprepare for what’s coming and plan for the worst if it happens. Which under TrumpMusk seems inceasingly likely. I suggest multiple back up plans. I do worry and feel for you and all the regulars over in the former USA for what no doubt very little that’s worth.
So having said allthat, um, enjoy. Seriously. Enjoy.
^ Post posting edit : for you and works out. I hope at least it gives you a chance to plan with others and prepare for what’s coming and plan for the worst if it happens.
Bon voyage PZ, and enjoy!
Unfortunately, many atheists believe in the same kind of magical thinking that allows for theism, making them subject to the delusions of conservatism, libertarianism, conspiracy theories, a whole host or irrational prejudices, and motivated thinking more generally. Their atheism truly is merely a belief, an opinion untethered to fact, observation, or any systematic analysis of the world around them–it is, in fact, completely devoid of content beyond being a tribal marker of opposition to theism–which is why they get all snippy about their definition of atheism and not expanding the atheistic movement beyond being a mindless and incoherent opposition to theism.
First talk: Eddie Tabash giving us a review of the dire state of the Supreme Court. Too depressing. I had to leave.
No, I’m not revitalized yet.
“Their atheism truly is merely a belief, an opinion untethered to fact, observation, or any systematic analysis of the world around them”
Is it 2010 again? A lot of people believe in irrational things, like homeopathy, or that vaccines cause autism. Not sure what “delusions of conservatism” is supposed to mean. You seem a bit confused yourself.
Most atheists I know have actually read the main religious texts and dismissed them as bronze age poetry made no better by the frantic editing or plagiarising in the centuries following, they had a giggle, saw those texts for what they are, and moved on. And even atheists who turn out to be conservative, libertarian, or misogynist assholes are able to figure that out, as we all learned the hard way.
You may get an opportunity to take down some of those “conservative” atheist arguments at the conference. If so, that would be a good thing — they should not be able to count on anything they say in public going undisputed. It’s not my place to say you have, or should have, the energy for such a fight, but if it happens, none of us will complain.
I don’t see a conflict in teaming up with people you disagree with on those issues in which you are in agreement. There’s a lot about the Democratic Party that I disagree with but I still vote for it to make common cause on issues where we do agree. I suppose the question is at what point does there become too much disagreement to work together on anything.
At the moment I see destructive Christianity (along with destructive Islam and destructive Hinduism and destructive other religions) as the number one threat to Western civilization. So if the person standing in the trenches next to me fighting destructive Christianity also believes in white supremacy, I’m happy to take his help in pushing back theocracy. Doesn’t mean I’m inviting him over for dinner after it’s over.
Then they are historical ignoramuses, because none of the main religious texts currently in use as such date from as far back as the Bronze Age, with the possible exception of parts of the Vedic texts of Hinduism.
” So if the person standing in the trenches next to me fighting destructive Christianity also believes in white supremacy, I’m happy to take his help”
NO. WAY. IN. HELL.
Thing is, it is not destructive Christianity that is the threat, it is destructive authoritarianism and enforced single minded ideology that uses Christianity that is the threat. As white supremacy dove-tails and is a direct result of that I will fight the white supremacist always on all grounds. And I’ll take the aid of the humanitarian christian anytime in even lightest (if they are truly humanitarian) of circumstances.
Woozy, No. 11, so you’re making common cause with Christians when you have common cause with them, and I’m making common cause with white supremacists when I have common cause with them. Doesn’t mean you’re a closet Christian or I’m a closet white supremacist. It means that the political realities are that sometimes you don’t get to choose your allies.
We need to take a lesson from the Republicans. You would be hard pressed to find a more disparate group of people. It includes libertarians who support abortion and gay marriage; Christian theocrats who hate abortion and gay marriage, wall streeters who only care about making money and not paying taxes, and a lot of working poor who’ve been sold a bill of goods that Kamala Harris is a Marxist who wants to take their guns. Yet, they all came together to elect Trump because that one thing was in all of their interests.
You can be pure or you can win elections. Personally, I’m getting tired of losing.
Hmmm…I think finding common cause with left leaning and/or secularist Christians to be far more acceptable than with white supremacists. I can see NO common cause with them on anything.
And on a different topic I looked at the program list for this event weekend PZ’s at and note there’s no overt indication of Atheists for Liberty or Sheedy. Hopefully that’s indeed the case. That would ruin a weekend.
@11: I would say Humanitarian Christians are wrong about the nature of the universe, and white supremacists are evil and dedicated to hurting people. They are not similar.
Harris was very dedicated to making common cause rather than staying pure, to the point where she stood up for Palestinians and trans people as little as possible. As far as I can tell it cost her a lot of enthusiasm in exchange for no real support. People respond to values over cynical calculations; and honestly I think the Republican party under Trump is an example of that, it’s just that its values are cruelty and rights only for the few.
Martial law, and supine court was intended.
sorry wrong thread!
@9 freeline
Well, that point sailed over everyone’s heads. (I think they saw “white supremacist” and didn’t read anything else). Here, I’ll translate:
Don’t give an inch on your political beliefs, but freely make conditional* coalitions with others in order to advance a cause that is advantageous to you.
* Not the unconditional coalition that Democrats try to rope everyone into every election season. They break your conditions, and you drop them like a hot potato.
Saying that you’re making “conditional” coalitions with white nationalists is like saying that you’re “conditionally” allowing a dog you know has fleas into your house. The outcome is foregone.
And as Monad pointed out already, in an election where social issues were the big topic, Harris threw Palestine, trans people, and women under the bus and focused almost entirely on the economy in an attempt to appeal to right-wing voters. An act that very likely cost her the election.
microraptor:
Hyperbole. Feeble action (not entirely inaction) is not a betrayal.
Here, in case your memory is failing you:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/26/israeli-right-wing-hits-out-at-kamala-harris-as-netanyahu-visit-polarises-opinion
microraptor @18
I really don’t think letting a dog with fleas into the house is comparable to a relationship of convenience with a Nazi or Klan member. It’s an insult to the dog and the fleas.
When I think of destructive Christianity I envision the concept of Positive Christianity and the Aryan Christ which don’t seem all that far removed from what white supremacy represents. I don’t see myself in common cause with Houston Chamberlain or Alfred Rosenberg.
@19: Guess you failed to notice that that article was printed mere days after she officially started her presidential run, and it was about a statement she’d made before she’d started running for president. But I guess it’s pretty easy to sit back and say it’s not a big deal when you’re not part of the group who’s rights are being taken away and who’s very existence is being criminalized.
And yet, mere days or not after her nomination, there it is, microraptor.
How about a few weeks before the election?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/vp-harris-urges-israel-to-do-more-to-facilitate-flow-of-aid-into-northern-gaza/
“US Vice President and Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris calls on Israel to do more to facilitate the flow of humanitarian aid into northern Gaza amid reports from the UN’s World Food Program that no assistance has entered that part of the Strip in nearly two weeks.
“Civilians must be protected and must have access to food, water, and medicine. International humanitarian law must be respected,” Harris tweets from her VP account.”
Having grown up with the rather bland, but benign Swedish State Church I see no harm in making common cause with non-rabid religious groups.
There is a wide spectrum out there.
There is an Aesop Fable about a frog assisting a scorpion over a river.
Common cause with people that, having gained their short term goal, with your help, will leverage it to do evil? Nope.