When he tries to tell us Americans how bad things are getting in the United Kingdom, it was a bit jarring. Doesn’t he know he’s interrupting America in its current armpit sniffing mode?
He makes a good case that it’s economically nuts for Britain to leave the European Union, but I’m personally most convinced that Brexit is a bad idea because most of its proponents seem to be bigoted wankers. Don’t you realize that if you isolate yourself and close off your borders, Nigel Farage will be trapped in there with you?
The whole Brexit thing seems to me to be as stupid as Trump’s plan to solve US economic problems by building a wall…the big difference is that while we’ll never, ever build his stupid wall, the United Kingdom is very close to committing their act of gross stupidity.
Farage won’t be trapped with the Englanders: The Englanders will be trapped with Farage, and when The accumulated filth of all their inbred monarchs’ sex lives and their traders’ economic murder ends up foaming up about their waists and all the Daily Mail and express look up and shout “Save us!” to the Continent… We’ll look down and shout back “No, fuck you, we got Scotland, that’s the only thing worth a damn in your Island anyway, enjoy spending the next century being Europe’s Puerto Rico, suckers!“
I would point out that while the wall Trump wants to build is impractical and possibly technically impossible, there is a wall or rather a series of walls between the US and Mexico. Trump isn’t really suggesting anything new there, just a massive extension of what is already there and accepted.
While I’m not competent to judge the outcome of such an exit I can understand some of motivation. The increased bureaucracy alone can drive a person insane. The “economic diversity” within the union is also a challenge. In the wealthier countries many workers are squeezed out by cheap labor from eastern Europe, and the open borders makes it hard to keep career criminals out.
That being true, there is also definitely a scare and misinformation campaign going on on both sides. It’s incredibly difficult to learn anything true about about the European Union because almost everyone talking about it is either (a) ideologically in favour and will lie to advance their position, (b) ideologically opposed and will lie to advance their position, or (c) ignorant.
As someone who has definitely benefited from the ease of travel and the single monetary system (lived in worked in 5 countries over the past 10 years with a lot less paperwork that one might expect), I’m definitely appalled by the undemocratic and -especially economically- unscientific approach to governance.
I really wish the fourth estate wasn’t so beholden to biased interests and could report properly on the pros and cons, but we seem to have entered an era where freedom-of-the-press is both available yet unexercised.
Well… sometimes two things.
I have to admit, I’m a little confused as to why all the people other than John Oliver seem to pronounce it as bregzit – it’s an ‘x’, not an ‘eggs’.
I’m so embarrassed that Farage ever represented my country at any level. Although I guess there are worse things – we actually had BNP members elected in the European parliament in my area. Eugh.
I don’t know much about the labor market in Britain, but I can say that when the US tries to crack down on illegal immigration or even legal immigration, crops rot in the fields. Are you sure those jobs that the eastern Europeans are taking are things that Brits are willing to do?
FWIW, Reporters without Borders places Britain at #38 in terms of press freedom, putting it ahead of the US (41), but well behind Ireland (9). Time to start reading the Irish press, if you want to know what’s actually going on?
That’s a common enough pronunciation of ‘exit’ that the OED lists it – for the UK it gives ‘eks’ first, followed by ‘egz’; for the USA, the other way round. Some words, like ‘exist’, only have ‘gz’.
@6
Maybe “Brits” would if the earned a British living wage instead of an Eastern European living wage?
It’s not about the actual freedom awarded by the political/justice system that is my worry, it’s the amount of freedom claimed by the press itself. Of course we consumers are to blame as well, declining newspaper subscriptions and the ‘click-bait culture’ force journalists to do unsavoury things just to stay in business. It’s a complex issue with no single perpetrator, but the dismantling of honest and thorough investigative journalism is a blow that may prove very serious.
@ Erlend Meyer
Increased bureaucracy? In many cases the EU has been beneficial for bureaucracy by creating common frameworks that all members adhere to. For example, there is one set of EU product safety regulations, and if you meet those then you can sell your product in any of the 28 member states. That’s got to be a bureaucratic win?
In terms of absolute levels of bureaucracy I believe the EU has a similar number of staff to some large county councils (local government organisations for the non-Brits here) in the UK. That’s pretty good going bureaucracy-wise!
I don’t know what the situation is in other member states, but in the UK this effect is massively over-stated by the Leave campaigners. The Bank of England commissioned some research which shows that the downward pressure on wages in semi-skilled and unskilled sectors due to EU immigration is quite small (around a 2% drop in wages for each 10% of the local population that’s made up of EU immigrants). LSE also carried out some research that failed to show any significant link between levels of EU immigration in an area and the ability of British-born workers in that area to get jobs. The 2008 financial crisis and economically disastrous responses to it from the governments since 2010 have had a much bigger impact on wages and jobs.
Also, EU immigrants contribute more to the public finances than they cost in services, so they help to prop up the health, education, and other essential services that we all rely on.
If we were having this referendum in better economic circumstances then there would hardly be any question about the outcome. Because we’re having it at a time when the economy is still in a pretty poor state, many people are suffering economically and looking for somebody to blame. EU immigrants are an easy scapegoat, but not the correct target of peoples’ ire.
We’re only having it at all because it was politically expedient for David Cameron to promise it to try to keep the eurosceptic wing of his party in check and win a few votes in the last general election.
@9: All I can tell you is that it hasn’t worked that way in the US. Wages don’t seem to go up or down with the availability of immigrants. I don’t know the details of the mechanism so I suppose it’s possible that it would work differently in Britain.
A major problem, IMHO, is the extent to which the press is owned by major corporations. Most “local” papers in the US are owned by one of a small number of conglomerates and, not unnaturally, this tends to influence what they report on and how. Not just because evil big business, but also out of laziness. Why hire more reporters when you can just copy from your sister papers in other towns?
Nigel Farage being trapped in here with us isn’t anything we haven’t had to put up with for centuries. He’s the embodiment of a specific type that we are very familiar with – the bluff, non-nonsense, right-wing Little Englander. You find people like him sitting in the corner of every pub in the land – swilling a pint and complaining about everything in the modern world between glances at the pictures in the Daily Mail. They’re tremendously irritating, in that they think everybody else secretly believes everything they do, but they are very much a minority. Maybe about 15% of us, if the votes garnered by Poundstretcher (sorry, keep making that mistake, I meant Ukip…) in the last election are anything to go by.
The truth of this whole Brexit farrage-o is that it happened entirely thanks to infighting within our country’s political right. It’s basically the euro-skeptic and euro-neutral wings of the Tory party (the former buoyed up by Ukip intransigence) having it out to settle their differences and holding our economic future to ransom in the process. It’s a minority one-issue political movement managing to lever much greater influence than it deserves thanks to the monomaniacal fervour of its relatively few champions and the general apathy among the majority (the first half of Last Week Tonight on America’s NRA is quite a good comparison).
@ Dianne #6:
It depends. I was thinking mainly of skilled work like construction, for unskilled work it’s probably not as bad. A lot of the problems are caused by worker exploitation, illegal contracts and below-minimum wages.
As for Boris Johnson… he’s not quite the same deal as Farage and the Ukippers. In fact I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone else quite like Boris. He’s one of the old-fashioned Old Etonian – Balliol Oxford – Right-wing journalism – Tory Politics types, and from what I can tell he is actually quite a Europhile in terms of his cultural leanings. His beef with the EU seems to genuinely be that it isn’t the Roman Empire, and tries to do so many things over and beyond what that ancient arrangement was able to.
Which aren’t going to change or at least not change for the better, if Britain leaves the EU.
As far as skilled workers go, I know the NHS is trying to recruit from outside the country, though not as aggressively as some places (hi, unsolicited ad from Australia!) so I’m dubious about there being enough skilled workers trained in Britain to sustain the country’s needs.
@16: Regarding Boris, I don’t see any indication that he actually has a real beef with the EU… I think he’s just decided that it’s politically expedient for him to pretend that he does, much like it’s been politically expedient for him to pretend to be a genial buffoon.
I strongly suspect that similar forces are fueling Brexit and the rise of Trump, and to a lesser extent things like Australia’s horrific border security policies – things aren’t going well for a good section of the population, they don’t know who to blame, and scared people start getting real spiteful. The insight here came from an article I read about Australia’s border security policies, and how what refugee advocates were finding was that people didn’t really have much of a problem with refugees specifically – if Australia was genuinely concerned about illegal immigrants, people overstaying their visas are a much bigger problem – but that “elitist” left-wing types prioritise the needs of foreigners over them.
You see this in a lot of countries, as the left has grown to encompass racial justice, the working class who would have been their traditional base got (rightly) tarred with the ‘racist’ brush. The concept of soft racism doesn’t seem to have made it to these places.
I wonder what would happen if someone like Frankie Boyle went on the BBC and explained to Leave voters that the 350 million pounds that they’re paying for EU membership won’t go to the NHS, it’ll go to Boris Johnson and all his mates in the form of tax cuts. If you’re voting Leave with the idea that things will get better, they won’t, because no-one in parliament fundamentally gives a shit about you so no-one will do anything to make your lot better. At least the EU parliament thinks nostalgically about Britain on occasion.
@Matt Cramp
Kind of reminds me of a woman on question time one week who ended up being the subject of a popular meme for a while – voted for the Tories because they promised to be hard on scroungers, then was devastated when she found out that she was a scrounger too, by their definitions.
Apparently David Cameron’s schtick is organizing large elections where he hopes the people vote ‘No’. Is that supposed to endear him to the populace somehow? “I don’t think much of that Cameron guy, but he’s certainly better than life under an independent Scotland/post-Brexit UK” ?
Can someone from over there explain why Cameron does this?
Cameron had no choice on this one. The Tory party is basically a fault line division of rich elites who love the banks on one side and foaming at the mouth eurosceptic true believers on the other. Cameron has to pander to the eurosceptics (UKIP being a major thorn on his right) to win elections and prevent outright revolt – including this whole referendum.
Cameron is an awful primeminister – but on this one he’s actually correct – the alternative to his slick, PR bullshit is the overt racist madness of Farage and co.
I must admit that I’ve been frequently tempted, in the face of the permanent whining and grousing and posturing and threats and cherry-picking and refusal to co-operate coming from GB, to just tell them to put their money where their mouth is and FUCKING LEAVE ALREADY IF YOU HATE IT SO MUCH.
But even if it’d be briefly, grimly amusing to watch their economy crumble due to hubris and Frankfurt suddenly double in size as London stops being the financial capital of Europe, I think both sides need to swallow their pride here. I promise I’ll put up with another 50 years of British Extrawürste and sneering chauvinism if you just stay and maybe tone down the rhethoric a bit!
Yeah, Brexit is kind of like Trump: If it weren’t for the millions who’d suffer without having had any say in this, you’d just make popcorn and watch the respective populations burn their shit to the fucking ground.
I’m not a big fan of the EU: it’s too much tailored to the needs of big companies and the countries that host them. Germany (among others) is sucking the poor countries dry. But right now the only way is to reform the EU, not to leave it unless you want to tear a few decades of work and growth down.
“Brexit is a bad idea because most of its proponents seem to be bigoted wankers.” Bearing in mind most of the opinion polls are showing the result as too close to call, are you saying that that description describes half the British electorate?
They mostly are exactly that, though they get really angry whenever anyone points it out.
Unfortunately, this gets a pass for much the same reason that the open bigotry and racism gets a pass – vast swathes of the UK public have bought entirely into the notion that the EU is some evil bureaucratic empire that seeks to stifle the very existence of ‘Britisheness’ for much the same reasons they imagine it likes to kick puppies – supposedly because it is pure (foreign, don’t forget foreign) evil. They even make ludicrously flailing comparisons to the Nazis from time to time. They invoke the image of plucky Britain once again beset by the Armada, though this time an armada of EU directives rather than Spanish warships. It is a heinously paranoid and a-historical comparison, but there is sufficient ignorance and unfocussed fear and hostility toward our neighbours that it can and does work.
The second prong of Farage and the broader ‘brexitier’s’ strategy is even worse – the corrosive lie that vast hordes of scary foreigners are just waiting to pour into Britain to destroy the country’s economy and way of life and run around raping every woman in sight (something that these usually misogynistic right wing dude-bros suddenly care about out of nowhere). They say that this campaign of fear isn’t about race, but that is a transparent lie. Just look at Farage’s latest poster entitled a not at all panic mongering ‘Breaking Point’. Notice anything interesting about it?
So long as bigots like Farage can tap into the underlying xenophobia that runs like poison through the veins of the UK body politic, then he will be tolerated on the basis that he may be an arrogant, bigoted buffoon, but he is supposedly our arrogant, bigoted buffoon, and that is imagined to be a safer bet than allowing the imaginary despoiling hordes access to these little islands. As cartomancer says @ 14, Farage is of that brand of reactionary Little Englander who still believes that Britain either does or should be able to rule the waves, and desperately wants to turn the clock back to a time when a tiny island perched precariously on the fringes of the European continent really did hold the balance of global power. He is totally delusional, but like Trump and much of the US right wing, he has successfully dressed his delusion up in the flag of misbegotten form of patriotism, and has gone on to leverage that into a disturbing degree of political capital.
Welcome to the campaign to ‘make Britain great again’. It is the same rhetoric, just slightly re-purposed and set in a different cultural context. Boris Johnson even has a haircut not a million miles away from Trump’s road-kill-chic look.
Although its entirely fashionable to claim that anyone from the UK wanting to leave the EU must be a slavering right wing racist who hates Johnny Foreigner, it might help the “progressives” thinking to remember back a few short years, when Greece had its own referendum while it, Spain , Portugal and Cyprus where forced into levels of unemployment not seen since the 1930’s through austerity packages, so that the money lost by the likes of Goldman Sachs , JP Morgan et al gambling on the Euro could be reimbursed and not trouble their share holders.
Wanna know what wankers other than Farage support staying in Europe and have donated to the campaign to remain?
Lloyd Blankfein, Chairman and CEO of Goldman Sachs and James Dimon chairman, president and chief executive officer of JPMorgan Chase,
Seems right to me…
@pointinline, 25
Uh… speaking as a Brit… have you met us?
To be fair, I’m not convinced that polls really tell you much on this sort of thing, and a lot of people are in favour of brexit because of lies like “it’ll save the NHS” – but that doesn’t have much to do with most of what the proponents are pushing.
Seems like a pretty conservative estimate to me. We keep electing Tories for one thing…
You can add Trump to the “bigoted wankers” that want Britain to leave the European Union.
http://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-backs-brexit-eu-referendum-leave-again-united-kingdom/
“I would personally be more inclined to leave, for a lot of reasons like having a lot less bureaucracy,” Trump told the Sunday Times.
Athywren, I am a Brit. My perception is that those who want out have all sorts of different reasons, and I don’t think that stereotyping is a valid argument either way.
Agreed. My opinion on the matter used to be ‘I’m not British, I’ll just go along with whatever they choose for themselves, I don’t really care either way.’ Then I found out that the entire thing is a UKIP idea, and changed to ‘definitely remain! Please remain!’ on that basis alone.
I live in a block where the average age is probably 60+ and of the people I have talked to about Brexit, around two thirds with about two thirds of them for Brexit, while not Klan level, racism and bigotry is a major factor in their decision to vote leave. Ally that with the crap they spout to me having read in the Leave handouts that regularly come through the letterbox and will ignore it even when I show them proof that the claims are either out and out lies or a twisting of the truth showing IMO it is only an excuse, much like Oliver’s examples about the pillow regulations, yep bigots is about right. Is it all of them, no, but from experience a very significant majority of them so I don’t think it too much of a stereotype. Though I do find that the younger the people the less likely they are to support brexit.
It’s telling, to me anyway, that the outsider in favour of brexit are bigots like Trump, neo-dictators like Putin who wants to see the end of the EU and NATO, and actual dicatoator the head of North Korea, and so on. It also probably doesn’t help that some of the most popular papers in the UK are either foreign owned, e.g. Murdoch, or run by people who have alwasy been anti-EU.
Boris isn’t really anti-EU, he used to be very much pro at one time, no his reason is because it gives him an easy in, or so he thinks anyway, to leader of the Tory if the vote is for leave as Cameron can only stay for a limited time if that happens.
Though I’m American, I have a deep interest in Brexit, because I attended school in Scotland, and have a great number of British friends. And one of my closest English friends is pro-leaving, though in his case it’s some sort of feeling about sovereignty, which he has never adequately managed to explain to me (he’s a Labour voter, and he’s not at all anti-immigration, since his parents are both Iraqi).
In any case, I think the consequences of leaving are ludicrously bad. It will politically and economically alienate Britain, and as the video pointed out, to remain afloat in terms of trade, Britain will have to abide by EU regulations anyway. It might well spark another Scottish referendum, which had already been rumbling around, and I can’t help but wonder: how exactly would Britain seal its borders? Because last I checked, the Republic of Ireland was in the EU. Northern Ireland is not. And there is no border. You can freely travel in Ireland. A quick ferry ride from Belfast, and you’re in England.
^That is, Northern Ireland would not be in the EU if Brexit passes
I’d also say that the significant fraction of the American population that is cheering on Trump also consists of bigoted wankers.
I am British, and, speaking for myself, I think staying in Europe is a good idea. However, David Cameron also supports this. Given that my impression of him is the quintessential Tory (that being a rich, upper-class twit totally out of touch with the realities of life for the average British person), that alone gives me pause and makes me reconsider.
Zmidponk, forget about Farage on the other side? I’m no fan of Cameron’s and come the revolution and all that /jk but Farage and his supporters are in a different league of bad.
There is a shocking amount of ignorance in the UK about the EU. You’d be surprised how many people think that any organisation with ‘Europe’ in its title is part and parcel of the EU — European Convention on Human Rights, Council of Europe, Eurovision Song Contest, Euro 2016 football championship… No, I didn’t make those last two up. I’ve heard people say it.
The worst I’ve heard came last week, when one of my colleagues said he was probably going to vote to leave because of all those unelected MEPs. He’s an intelligent and capable person, yet he really believed that no-one can vote to choose their representatives in the European Parliament. I had to explain it all from scratch, using the parallels in the UK’s structure of government to counter complaints about the EU structure. Don’t like unelected bureaucrats in Brussels? Well, you don’t get to elect the bureacrats in Whitehall, either. That’s because they are literally office workers and not your regional representative! He did end up changing his mind, and I have to wonder how many other people are in the same boat after soaking up decades of tabloid bullshit and politicians’ self-serving half-lies. So please don’t think half of us are bigots. We’re not, but this referendum farago is certainly encouraging bigots to crawl out of the woodwork.
Talking of bullshit and half-lies, when Boris Johnson used to be the Daily Telegraph’s European correspondent in Brussels, he used to make up articles about straight banana regulations and all that nonsense. He’s doing it today because he knows he can get away with it and just brazen it out. His only motivation is power: he’s doing this just to get Cameron’s job.
If British experience with their own politicians lying about EU is anything like my country’s, then I would bet that politicians from all sides have contributed to public negativity about EU.
Over here, EU is the scapegoat for everything.
A law infringing on people’s rights is passed? EU made us do it
A law isn’t infringing on people’s rights enough, as opined by conservatives? EU liberal anti-religious heathens forced us.
Newspapers are entertaining the public with details of refrigerator production regulations when it suits their “sponsors”, spinning it into something similar to pillow example in the video? See, this is what EU is concerned about instead of real problems.
Money cuts everywhere? Not our fault, EU said we had to lower government expenses
Even those who are generally pro-EU can get tempted into using it as an excuse when passing laws or regulations that the general public might not be happy with. I doubt Britain was any different in this.
Rich Woods, yep, a former head of MI6 was quoted as one of the good reasons for leaving the EU was that we could then leave the European Court Of Human Rights. I.E. the one Britain was instrumental in forming and creating after WWII and nothing to do with the EU, which has the European Court Of Justice to deal with problems with EU law. Now its possible he got the two confused, possibly because the Tory government made leaving the ECHR a plank of its manifesto for the last election as they no longer appreciate their subjects and especially foreigners having the rights the post war British government enacted when they created the ECHR. However, when they realised that things like the peace process in NI would likely fall apart without it, they realised it would be more difficult than it was worth, at least for now. But still, for a former head of MI6 to make such an error is mind blowing.
Rich Woods, actually there is a set of regulations to do with bananas, such as their size and the like. But the industry and supermarkets lobbied for it for standardisation reasons t do with things like packaging. The same amounts to many of the other EU regulations that the right wing press like to denigrate, assuming they aren’t made up in the first place or are calling UK law EU law. I.E. the relevant industry Europe wide will lobby for a specific set of regulations for any number of reasons, e.g. equalise standards in one or more ways or, in some cases, as protectionist measures against non EU products etc. Now you can argue whether any of them are good regulations or not, but they are not regulations that the EU just pulled out of its nether ends to impose on its citizens.
While we should never let the facts get in the way of a good argument… well, an argument, anyway, if you want some more facts and figures about Brexit presented in a fairly neutral way, BBC’s Radio 4 programme More or Less has a couple of programmes available for streaming or downloading.
John Phillips, FCD:
I try to forget Farage as often as I can. I have paid absolutely no attention whatsoever to whatever bilge he’s spewed on this. I have only seen the arguments for leaving put forth by the official leave campaign, which Farage is actually not part of, which basically emphasises how much money the UK pays into the EU without covering what benefits this gets, and says that the UK will be economically better off outside of the EU. However, this idea seems to stem from the notion that several EU countries will be extremely desperate to continue trading with the UK, and this will allow the UK government to negotiate an extremely favourable trade deal with them, despite now being outside the EU, and, as far as I can see, there is actually no real solid evidence this is the case.
Zmidponk, Farage might not be part of the official Leave campaign but there are more than the official groups campaigning on both sides. As part of his campaign Farage brought out the nazi style propaganda poster the day before Jo Cox was shot, though to be fair, he did get a fair of stick for it from some on is side of the campaign as well.
As for the EU countries, while they don’t want us to leave for a number of reasons, the last thing they will feel in a hurry to do of we leave is to be generous to us in any trade deals we manage to arrange. Even worse, anyone doing serious business with the EU has to abide by the same rules and regulations that the member states do but with no say in what those rules and regulations are.
pointinline@32,
While there are certainly some Brexiters who are not motivated by xenophobia and racism, all the reporting I’ve seen indicates that “concern over immigration” (aka xenophobia and racism) is the main motivator, and it has certainly been the central theme of the Leave campaign.
However, here is an interesting article arguing that the motivation for those at the top of the official Leave campaign is to leave the EU so they can subject the UK to a radical “libertarian” regime, free of those annoying protections for workers and the environment. To achieve this, they are quite prepared to stir up racist sentiments, despite being personally cosmopolitan in outlook.
The campaign as a whole has been disastrous for British political culture, as both sides are led by very rich right-wing liars, and the real issues of financial instability, inequality, war and environmental crisis have scarcely surfaced at all. The only positive point has been the deep divisions within the Tory party, which have become increasingly bitter and personalised during the course of the campaign. But I suspect that if the vote is to Leave, the party will swiftly unite behind it, since there will be no politically viable alternative. Any attempt to block the leaving process (it’s been suggested that since a clear majority of MPs want to stay in, this could be done) would simply play into the hands of Farage. A narrow vote to remain, however (and if there is one, it’s almost certain to be narrow) will leave the Tories deeply split – the leave side will quickly start pushing for a second referendum, once any opportunity arises to do so.
With regard to (a), this just isn’t true. A very large proportion of those on that side (most of those on the left) are arguing for it as the lesser of two evils.
John Phillips
I think the rest of the EU is fucking sick and tired of GB being the everlasting special snowflake demanding extra special privileges. I don’t think anybody will rush to the UK with flowers if they leave and give them a cookie, especially since they’d tank the rest of the economy alongside.
Giliell@49,
The Brexiters’ economic case, such as it is, relies on being able to negotiate a highly favourable agreement – an amicable divorce – with the EU. Specifically, it relies on continuing access to the Single Market – without having to abide by free movement of labour, etc., as Norway does. Yet these same people are telling us how the EU is robbing us blind. The incompetent Remain campaign has failed to make much of this gross inconsistency.
I think a large part of the EU elite’s obvious desire for the UK to stay in is a fear that a vote to leave could be the first step in EU disintegration – Donald Tusk was explicit about this. But that’s another reason they would not be keen to give the UK a generous divorce settlement if it comes to that.
Nick Gotts
They really don’t get the difference between a nasty divorce and never having hooked up in the first place, do they?
Also, about all major companies and institutions fear that a Bexit, no matter the terms, would tank the economy. It might indeed be outside of anyone’s ability to do much about the negative effects.
That’s another problem. Not that there aren’t any obvious serious problems with the EU, just look at Greece and Spain and Portugal when it comes to the economy, and Hungary and Poland when it comes to human rights. But I doubt this would be better without the EU…
So I got one of the Vote Leave fliers through my door this morning.
The front page lays out our options quite accurately and without any degree of spin whatsoever:
1) STAY in the EU permanently
That’s right! There will be, can be, shall be no other votes on this ever! If we vote to stay, we’re there… FOREVER!
2) VOTE LEAVE and take back control
Because… we don’t have any control? I guess?
Also on the front page, apparently the EU costs us £350 million per week, and we could spend that on the NHS instead!
Could we? Err… well it says so on the paper, so surely it’s true?!
The first inner page laws out what’ll happen if we vote to stay in the EU, with lovely red fonts and background:
The EU will continue to grow, and the next few countries that look likely to join are Albania (population 2.8 mil) Macedonia (2.1 mil) Montenegro (0.6 mil) Serbia (7.2 mil) and Turkey (76 mil).
There’s a pretty little picture, showing the warm and welcoming red Turkey, with four red stick men and three red stick women coming over to cold and unwelcoming blue Britain – it looks like they’re moving to Lincolnshire, or maybe Nottinghamshire (it’s a small map, and it’s quite hard to tell for sure). They helpfully inform us that Turkey has borders with Syria and Iraq.
The EU will cost us more and more – it already costs us £350 million a week (déjà vu?) and we could use that to build a new NHS hospital each week! (Do hospitals go up that quickly?) We get less than half of that back, and have no say over how it’s spent! (I’m assuming they mean the part we don’t get back?)
There’s a handy headline, clearly ripped from the local paper, that informs us that millions have been spent on limos and expenses for Euro MPs. And there’s a picture of a stretch limo, with all the back windows tinted black.
Immigration will continue to be out of control. Apparently, nearly 2 million people came to the UK from the EU over the last ten years. Imagine what it will be like in future decades when new, poorer countries join. (Is 2 million over a decade a lot? It doesn’t really seem like a lot….)
There’s a picture of some people at a razor wire fence, some are waiting on one side, while there’s a man helping a woman crawl under, and another woman has clearly just come through and is standing up. She’s holding a water bottle – looks like one of those Evian-type ones, with the pop-uppy top that lets you take a sip without having to unscrew it all. How nice that they’re helping each other.
We’ll have to keep bailing out the €. Turns out the countries that use the Euro have a built-in majority, and they can always outvote us. That means that we’ll be paying the bill for the Euro’s failure. There’s a picture of a €1 coin, but it doesn’t look like the one I just googled… I think it’s supposed to be shattered? Just looks a bit blocky, though.
The European Court will be in charge of our laws. It already overrules us on everything from how much tax we pay, to who we can let in and out of the country, and on what terms. There’s a picture of Justitia, blindfolded and holding the sword and scales, of course framed by the European ring of stars.
The next page, with cold and isolating blue fonts and background, tells us what’ll happen if we vote to leave:
We’ll be in charge of our own borders. In a world with so many new threats, it’s safer to control our own borders and decide for ourselves who can come into this country, not be overruled by EU judges.
There’s a picture of some chalk cliffs. I think it’s Flamborough, but meant to evoke Dover. It’s quite hard to tell, really. It’s slightly off square, and it has a little white border around it. I think somebody’s holiday photo accidentally fell onto the final copy? There’s also a British passport.
We will be able to save £350 a week. We can spend our money on our prioirities like the NHS, schools, and housing. (Woah, wait, didn’t you already promise this money to the NHS? Don’t go trying to change the deal now!)
There’s a picture of a fancy new hospital, and it says NHS in the top left corner.
We can control immigration and have a fairer system which welcomes people to the UK based on the skills they have, not the passport they hold.
There’s not picture for this one. I am quite disappointed.
We’ll be free to trade with the whole world. The EU stops us from signing our own trade deals with key allies like Australia or New Zealand, and growing economies like India, China or Brazil. We’ll be free to seize new opportunities which means more jobs.
There’s a picture of some people sat around a map of the world. I think some of them are about to draw on it, and a couple of them have mugs of coffee on it. They’re in the oceans, but still, that’s gonna leave a ring!
We can make our own laws. Our laws should be made by people we can elect and kick out – that’s more democratic. (I have to ask, is that not kind of already the case? I’m pretty sure I voted for MEP a couple of times. I kinda feel like I have a similar amount of democratic control over the EU as I do over the UK. I may be wrong about this.)
There’s a picture of some people with their hands in the air, and the Union flag in the background.
The final page is the EU myth buster page!
Don’t believe those who are talking Britain down (?) – here’s what the experts say:
Does the EU keep us safe?
Sir Richard Dearlove, former chief of MI6 says, “Brexit would bring two potentially important security gains: the ability to dump the European Convention of Human Rights … and, more importantly, greated control over immigration from the European Union.” (Full quote – the ellipsis is theirs. I’m a bit confused by their willingness to include the “dump the EU convention on Human Rights” bit. I realise human rights are a big sticking point for certain sectors of UK society, but… I mean… surely they want to be a little subtle about it?)
There’s a picture of Sir Richard Dearlove, clearly about to start yelling “what the fuck did you say about my mum? I’ll fuckin’ lamp you, ya muppet!” Not a cheery Knight Commander in that picture.
Would jobs be at risk?
[Six company logos – Toyota, Nissan, Vauxhall, GE, Unilever, and Airbus] and many more companies who say they will stay
EU regulations make it harder for British firms to hire staff. Major employers like Toyota, Nissan, Vauxhall, Honda, Unilever, GE and Airbus have all said they’ll stay in the UK whatever the result of the referendum.
(Funny thing is that some of those companies seem to be less than thrilled about being included on this flier.)
Does the EU mean lower prices?
Tim Martin, Chairman of Wetherspoons says, “The EU places tariffs on goods from outside the EU, which is bad for British shoppers and the developing world. And the EU forces us to charge VAT on goods, pushing up bills for working families.”
There’s a picture of Tim Martin, and I think he’s saying, to Sir Dearlove, “you heard me, wanker!”
(Interestingly enough we had something very similar to VAT before the EU forced us to take it on in the ’70s. While it was raised relatively recently, it’s still a lower rate than the purchase tax was in 1973, when VAT took its place.)
Will we be better of worse off?
Nigel Lawson, former Chancellor of the Exchequer says, “As Chancellor, I became increasingly aware that, in economic terms, membership of the EU did us more harm than good. Outside the EU, we would prosper, we would be free, and we would stand tall.”
In ex-Chancellor Lawson’s picture, it’s quite clear that he’s running out of patience with Dearlove and Martin, and is contemplating going home if they don’t stop bickering.
(While I won’t deny that he may have been in a good position to judge the impact of the EU on the UK’s economy, I will point out that it’s almost 30 years since he was Chancellor, and his view on the issue from that time may not be applicable any longer.)
What’s best for business?
John Longworth, Director General of the British Chambers of Commerce, 2011-2016 says, “the EU interferes with UK firms and stacks the rules in favour of a select number of big businesses. If we Vote Leave, jobs will be safer. We can have faster growth and greater prosperity in the future.”
He also has a picture, but I feel like my head canon narrative of their little party is getting silly, so I’m not going to share.
(I don’t think I can really argue with that first sentence, but I don’t see how the rest follows.)
Does the EU protect workers’ rights?
Gisela Stuart, Labour MP and Chair of Vote Leave says, “the rights we have won for British workers came from our Parliament, not the EU. The EU is run in the interests of the big corporations who spend billions lobbying to make it work for them.”
(Again, I can agree with that last sentence, but I’m not convinced by the first. I don’t think the EU is somehow responsible for all of our workers’ rights – certainly not those won before its inception – but I think it’s a mixed deal.)
Nick
“concern over immigration” (aka xenophobia and racism) is the main motivator” I disagree that a concern over immigration equates to xenophobia and racism. I assume you’re a citizen of the US, a nation which has very strict regulations on who it allows to immigrate. It’s a long difficult and drawn out process, entering and staying in the US and no-one accuses you of racism because of that. Correct me if I’m wrong but the citizens of no other country in the world enjoy an automatic right to enter the USA regardless of their history or purpose. This being the case puts you in no position to criticise the UK.
pointinline
Oh just stuff your pseudo-liberal dogwhistles where the sun doesn’t shine. Yes “concern over immigration” is a really plain dogwhistle for racism. Because they’re not very concerned over white ass German me immigrating, are they?
You’re wrong. Nick’s a Brit which kind of makes you “et tuuque” seem a bit ridiculous.
What colour is the sky on your planet? Yes, US immigration procedures have been called racist quite a lot of time, especially given the treatment of undocumented immigrants from Latin America.
I guess being a Brit puts him in that position, right?
Besides, how many Brits are currently enjoying freedom of movement in the EU? Living in Spain while adamantly refusing to learn when to say “buenos días” and when not?
You miss the point on immigration Giliel. One of the criticisms of the EU is that it forces us to impose severe immigration controls on non EU countries, including former commonwealth countries who used to enjoy special status. The EU forces us to admit “white ass Germans” but forces us to discriminate against Indians and Jamaicans. The point is that control over immigration has been lost. Also if you were to turn up to Sidney airport trying to enter Australia and you are found to have a criminal record you’ll be on the next plane out again. No-one claims that that is racist. Our home secretary can, and has banned people such as Michael Savage from entering the UK but Geert Wilders has automatic right of entry.
It’s difficult to get accurate figures… I’ve seen numbers from 1.3 to 2.2 million.
According to the Farage school of migration statistics, it’s about 65 million.
Dune
It is perfectly possible to negotiate freedom of movement between the EU states and non members, such as Switzerland, which has such an agreement already. All it requires is goodwill. The same can be said of trade. If people want to buy each others stuff, and they clearly do, then agreements can be reached. Brexit does not automatically preclude this. Life will go on.
@pointinline
So, assuming the majority of us do vote to leave, we can still negotiate our way into having to adhere to the same rules that we’re supposedly chafing under in order to gain access to the same markets and movement rights we already have right now? Except without any say over what those rules might be anymore? I’m not seeing the sense in that. This is international politics, not the hokey cokey.
You really have a weird-ass idea of “no one”
Buahh-haaa-haaa.
Yeah, because the people voting for “Leave” clearly want more Jamaicans and Indians in the UK.
Yeah, so how much goodwill is it exactly if you get out of an organisation and blame it for every single thing that isn’t perfect in your country, probably including the weather?
If you haven’t got it: Leaving means burning the bridges. The economic consequences will be real and they will be felt by all of Europe, not just the UK. Why do you think anybody would ever trust you again?
As a matter of interest Gileell, where are you from?
Nah, our weather is mostly America’s fault. We can blame the occasional bit of it on Norway, but even that’s on America, because we get their air when America misses us and hits the French instead.
Hey! Maybe the French would stop stealing our mild winters if we left the EU?
Actually Giliell yes. There are lots of people out there who want to come to Britain, who for various reasons would be an asset, and who we would like to admit, regardless of where they come from. Remember there was a popular and successful campaign in this country to grant all former Gurkhas automatic right of entry into the UK. And similarly there are people who we’d rather not have who we’d like to keep out, regardless of where they come from. You’re assessment of those who may vote out is nothing more than stereotyping.
Reading competence and spelling, what about those? Are they not British values anymore?
Have you never made a typo? Of course the fact I’ve spelled your name wrong inevitably invalidates all my arguments. I’ll just go & slash my wrists now.
@pointinline
Maybe focus on the reading competence part – Giliell is German, which was mentioned about an hour ago in this thread.
pointinline
misspelling my name three time in a row is hardly a typo. I also already told you where I’m from. I’ve already addressed your arguments. You asked me to provide you with information I already gave you while not showing a minimum amount of respect towards me, which convinces me that you’re actually not worth my time. Given your mock-theatrical “I’ll slash my wrists” here shows me I’m pretty right on this.
Oh yes I remember now. Giliell is German. So is Rathje, my mother’s maiden name.
I can only find one instance where I mis-spelled your name. And you gave me no information at all. You gave me opinions based on your own prejudices. I’d guess you’re quite young. Reminds me of the bumper sticker “Employ a youngster now, while they still know everything”. Please don’t mistake my mild teasing for disrespect.
pointinline,
Everyone who has any issues with your comments is either of wrong nationality or wrong age. Funny, how that happens.
@63: Who’s “we”? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?
Sorry, where I have I taken issue with anyone’s nationality or criticised someones age? Please quote exactly.
Dunc, #71
Yup. Instant giveaway.
“Also if you were to turn up to Sidney airport trying to enter Australia” you would be in the wrong fucking place. The airport code is SYD for a reason. If you turn up to Sydney with a criminal record you may still be given a visa, depending on the crime and whether it’s seen as ‘substantial’.
I would imagine that if the UK negotiated in good faith with the EU instead of kicking and screaming over every fucking little thing like they’ve done for years, they could probably carve out a special status for Commonwealth countries. The whole point of the EU was to make worker movement fall-down easy, so it’d be tricky, but the UK hasn’t ever really tried to participate so they can’t be surprised that they don’t get a say.
Me @54
pointinline
@61
@55
I admit it was only twice, the third time i counted was me quoting you.
Really, you’re trying to be funny hard. You’re failing at equal levels. You’re the one throwing a temper tantrum for people not bowing to your “wisdom” but you think that
a) being young would somehow invalidate my opinion
b) I’m what, 18?
I take your disrespect for disrespect. Not bothering with somebody’s name is disrespect. Not reading what others have written and then demanding they’re spoon-feeding you stuff is disrespecting them.
Don’t you read your own comments? You tried to discredit my comment @53 on the (false) assumption that I’m American, and Giliell’s @69 on the assumption that she’s young.
There’s certainly someone on this thread doing a lot of stereotyping (see above). Maybe people whose nyms begins with “point” and ends in “line” are particularly prone to it?
Giliell #49, I’m pretty sick of it too and I’m a Brit. I’m only hoping that if, fsm forbid, the vote is to leave, that the other countries of the union will eventually decide to go their own way and leave England and rejoin the EU as single entities. Then I could either go live in Scotland or back to Wales, either of which is home as I am a mongrel mix of 3/4 Welsh 1/8 Scottish and 1/8 Norwegian.
pointinline:
Oh my. Now that’s fucking funny.
John Phillips, FCD@77,
A vote to leave wouldn’t trigger another Scottish independence referendum in the short term – the SNP and other pro-independence parties and groups would want to be very confident of a clear majority to risk another vote – but it’s a distinct possibility a few years down the line; although legally, the Westminster parliament would have to agree, and the kind of hard right government likely to follow a Brexit might well refuse. In the immediate aftermath, I’m sure all the devolved administrations would press for representation in the negotiations to leave, and kick up a considerable stink if refused – especially if their populations had voted to Remain.
Amusingly, there’s even been speculation that London might leave the UK! After all, it has a considerably larger population and more wealth than Scotland – and like Scotland, seems almost certain to vote Remain.
I’m kind of hoping that the bigger counties jump on the “officials we didn’t vote for” bandwagon and vote to break away from England, too. After all, those of us up in Yorkshire had no say over the election of the likes of Cameron and Osbourne! Of course, there is then the problem that maybe the counties would break down into individual wards, with the local MPs being voted into the premiership of a given area
Actually, the debate is far more nuanced than indicated here. There is a strong and long-standing left-wing argument against the EU. Most notably, this was articulated by the late Tony Benn.
The concerns about sovereignty are genuine. Interestingly, the current Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has spent most of his political life as a Eurosceptic. He voted ‘out’ in the 1975 referendum, and he voted against the Maastricht Treaty (which transformed the old EEC into the EU). Now he finds himself in the uncomfortable position of arguing for continued membership, even though it’s obvious that deep-down he’s conflicted. I suspect that Corbyn’s angst is shared by many in the nominally pro-EU side; and indeed, it’s where I am. I will vote stay, but not with any passion. The alternative – ten or more years of chaos with the likes of Johnson/Farage likely in charge is too awful to contemplate.
For those outside the UK who are curious about the issues, here is a good place to start – Mr Paxman goes to Brussels:
A debate is far more nuanced, but that debate is not the one being referenced here. Not all debates about Europe are about the entirety of Europe, whether we should’ve joined it 40 years ago, or what we would like the EU to be, if we would like it to be anything at all.
tonyjackson50758, I agree that it SHOULD be more nuanced, but it really isn’t at this moment. Also, like you, I want to stay in the EU for a number of reasons but and while it sounds as if I probably have more enthusiasm about the EU than you do, I am not trying to say the EU is perfect, far from it. However, the way I look at it, far better to work to change it from within than be on the outside looking in complaining about the EU rules and regulations we will still have to abide with if we want to trade with them. I also agree that if I had even less enthusiasm for it than I do I would still vote to remain as the thought of Boris and Farage lording it while chaos reigns makes me want to vomit.
tonyjackson50758, I agree with Athywren and John Phillips. I’m well aware of the “left case for Brexit” – I was at a meeting in Edinburgh last week where it was argued for by Jim Sillars of RISE and (in effect, although he said he hadn’t yet decided how to vote) Labour’s Neil Findlay, with Maggie Chapman (co-convenor of the Scottish Green Party) arguing for Remain – and in a lot of ways it’s an easier case to make than a progressive case for Remain, because in a lot of ways, the EU is shit, as demonstrated by the way both Greece and desperate refugees have been treated recently. But whether or not it’s shit is not the question we have to answer; it’s whether the UK, Europe and the world will be better or worse if the Brexiters win the vote. I’m in little doubt all three are likely to be worse. Such a vote will put the UK in the hands of the Tory right and UKIP; strengthen the far right throughout the EU; and possibly cause enough financial upheaval to put Trump into the US presidency.
tonyjackson
There absolutely is, but it’s not the fight you’re in at the moment. This isn’t about recreating Europe as a more social, solidaric place. It’s about hardline right wingers and racists trying to move the UK to right of HUngary, regardless of the consequences.
I just went and voted Remain, twice.* The final batch of polls still suggests a very tight contest.
*Quite legitimately: the second vote was a proxy for my wife, who’s working in Ialy.
I also voted this morning, also remain, but only once, because my false moustache was “utterly unconvincing, and anyway, you didn’t even leave the room!”
Now I’m having a mild-but-exacerbated-by-the-fact-that-my-laptop-is-reinstalling-windows-and-keeping-me-from-doing-any-work-or-otherwise-distracting-myself panic attack over the fact that there’s actually a chance the vote’ll swing toward leave and we’ll fumble our way out of the EU on the basis of a few cynical politicians yelling “take back [the] control [that we already had anyway]!”
This is going to be a bloody long couple of days, and I’m already exhausted.
Well.
Fuck.
That didn’t go at all well.
And apparently Cameron’s resigning, so that’s one positive thing. Though who will replace him is another issue.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/david-cameron-kuendigt-wegen-brexit-ruecktritt-an-a-1099511.html
For those who insist on speaking English, despite its clearly being a washed up language spoken only in countries bent on political suicide: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-result-live-counting-leave-remain-brain-in-europe
Apparently, at least one person didn’t believe their leave vote would count, and is now shocked and worried.
I want to say some very unpleasant things to that person, and every single person who voted our country into irrelevancy for the sake of a fucking protest vote.
Protest votes can have consequences.