Earbuds. They drive PUAs bonkers.
Yeah, you women: BE OPEN AND RECEPTIVE TO COLD APPORACHES. You’re stifling the poor pick up artists.
(Although, strangely, if I need to talk to a woman wearing earbuds, it usually seems to work to wave and get their attention. But then, I’m not some aggressive dudebro on the make.)
I’ve got earbuds for my MP3 player. I don’t need an overpriced music box to support my earbuds.
This doesn’t seem to be bad satire, so I am simply surprised that someone male bothered to let the world see what a embarrassing little shit he is.
That is an awesome and hilarious PUA rant! Totally made my day.
That young lady probably noticed the plucky PUA leering at her and swiftly pulled out her phone and earbuds as self-defense and good on her if that’s what she actually did!
Hey dudebro? Her music player wasn’t even on, she just put her ear buds in because she didn’t want to talk to you.
So…a woman listening to music is shitting down a poor, poor PUAs throat? My, my.
If he’d had a crush on her for six months, why would it have been a ‘cold approach’? I mean, he should have had some sort of interaction with her in that half of a year, right? If he just hung around not saying anything, well, hell, of course she put the earbuds on as soon as she caught sight of him.
How mean! How could she just refuse him his god-given right to pester her at his convenience? Why would any woman take advantage of a simple way to ward of pickup artists? It’s inconceivable.
You’ve known you fancied her for six months? You’ve seen her around regularly to confirm that idea? You decided that today was the right one for her to fall into your arms?
Hey, bighead, did you not realise she was ready to give it a try 4 months ago but you were so busy thinking about yourself you didn’t notice? And now she’s bored with the whole idea?
Tough!
So it took him six months to do a “cold approach” just to talk to some woman he was attracted to? Everything about this guy is creepy – she’s probably been wondering why some guy has been following her around and staring at her for six months.
But aside from that-
Boo Macs!. Not you, iPhone – you’re fine.
One post, two entirely different topics to broach:
This is just… completely what I’d expect. I’m just not surprised… at all. It kinda sums up the whole PUA thing perfectly, doesn’t it? If only this had come out sooner… “fuck earbuds” could’ve been the new Manboobz title (not that I don’t like the actual new title, but still…)
But now we know that earbuds are misandry, so… yay earbuds?
That said… no power in this universe could get me to Mac, especially not when their solution to suicides in Apple’s factories in China is to put up fucking nets. So in that sense, yeah… fuck Apple and fuck Steve Jobs. I could also go on and on about how terribly overpriced their stuff is, but yeah…
I guess they really do work.
Some of the time.
Sometimes I just go out with my earbuds in, not listening to anything, maybe even not hooked to my phone, just going into my pocket, to keep random men from deciding I need to hear their opinion of me. That plus large sunglasses and they stay nice and far away.
First of all, earbuds will not stop people from trying to ask me directions. Trust me.
Second, I will have mine in whenever I leave my building from now on.
@11: What a load of swill. “They” don’t have any factories in China. Apple devices are assembled under contract in several factories in China, as are most other brands of consumer electronics. Apple was the only one of those brands involved in talks with the Chinese government to mitigate conditions in those factories, and their reward is to be maligned as the only ones who have things assembled in China—none of the other brands are ever criticized for the same thing.
I’ll simply stop using a computer rather than use a Windoze machine. Played around with one again just recently…horrifying. And this “overpriced” canard is so last century. The PC OEMs wanted to emulate the MacBook Air and created the “ultrabook” category. They had to get a 50% discount from Intel on the processors and are still priced higher than Apple for similar hardware. But frankly, even if Apple’s hardware was junk instead of the best in the world, I’d buy nothing else, because only OS X makes using a computer tolerable.
But I do envy people who have ears earbuds will stay in. I might as well apply them to my cheekbones.
So glad this turned into a pc versus mac rant thread.
This isn’t just a crush it’s creepy, if it doesn’t already border on stalking or worse, like something a serial killer might say. But apparently Steve Jobs is still burdened with the majority of this guy’s fury because these earbudded “women constantly shit down [his] throat,” even though earbuds did exist long before the iPod.
Yuck, take a hint and calm down; cold approaches on the street are rarely the best way to first talk to people anyway.
The people trying to ask me directions aren’t trying to create some kind of ongoing relationship, they just want to know how to get to Centre Street (or Boylston Street, or the Pike Place Market–it doesn’t matter what city I’m in). That’s a big part of why those aren’t the conversations I want to fend off. If I don’t know the answer, the people who are asking for directions don’t take it as an insult, they just ask someone else who looks like they know what they’re doing (and not necessarily “some other woman”).
6 months without talking to her? Creepy stalkerish…
Several years ago a fellow at school asked me, “What camp do you belong to?” I told him, “It’s not a war, guy.” (Too bad so many people insist on trying to prove me wrong.)
As an aside, I’ve read that since white earbuds are associated with the iPod and the iPhone they tend to attract more thieves.
However, I’m assuming changing to a different color will still be “suicide” for this guy as long as the crush of his dreams is wearing them.
21: Truth. It gets a bit tiresome seeing Mac users always classified as a cult, when the only people I ever see behaving cultishly are the raving Apple haters.
I mean, I suppose I can understand Playstation vs. XBox flame wars, if only for the fact that the people fighting those are, on average, 14.
But back to the topic at hand: In six months, this loser never worked up the guts simply to go “Hi, my name’s so and so, nice to meet you”?
Earbuds aren’t your problem, Capt. Fedora.
I work downtown, so I encounter random strangers everyday on the way to my car or to get lunch. Last week, I was waiting on a red light, and this man couldn’t have chosen a more offensive pick up line. He asked me if I was Korean and then Chinese and then Vietnamese. I said yes to Vietnamese, because it is tedious explaining to strangers I’m Eurasian. So the kicker, he responds my ex-girlfriend was Vietnamese.
Whether it was inadvertent or not it is always rude to play guessing games about a person’s ethnic identity like you are a connoisseur or something. I didn’t say anything after the pregnant pause. So he finally moved on. I don’t know if there is a polite way to meet women you don’t know on the street. It takes a little more work than that, like actually getting to know people and accepting rejection gracefully.
Plus, women by themselves on the street can be more on guard, because of the possibility of getting mugged or assaulted. So when a different man last week yelled that I was a “fine ass woman”. I’m not thinking this is an opportunity to meet someone; I’m thinking don’t make eye contact. (was a banner week for me)
I’d like to know if any man is successful with the “cold call” technique of women they don’t know on the street.
Note: I wasn’t actually defending PC.
First scented candles are misandry, now earbuds? Will anyone stand up for this gross injustice done to poor, oppressed men? Anyone?
Martin Wagner wrote:
Most people fail to see their own “side” acting bad. There’s a bit of an unconscious bias that tends to filter out these things unless you consciously watch for it. But, if you’d like an example: I had a professor that started his first comp sci lecture of the year by talking about how great Macs were, and how the mouse pointer was just the perfect size, unlike the gaudy, oversized mouse pointer you find Windows using.
I had to go look it up:
An PUA emo sounds like a miserable combination indeed, the ultimate antithesis to the “strong silent type”.
I love how women are supposed to be optimized for rando PUAdood moments-of-approach. Also, how everyone is at fault except rando PUAdood that his entitlement to having his strange demands on reality met. “How a Dead Steve Jobs Made the Girl of My Dreams Shit Down My Throat.” Lovely!
A virile you man about town of the Eighties would have blamed this esophageal fecal-stuffing on Sony. (And the Woman. It’s always the Woman. She probably would stuff nuts and berries in her ears in the days of yore. Maybe because she saw you coming.)
@ lilandra #24
I haven’t heard any confirmed stories of this nonsense ever working, though I hear plenty from women who are harassed this way out in public. Catcalling, waving, whistling, following (gee, can’t imagine why women would choose to carry mace after hearing something like that), and so on.
And as a man it’s embarrassing and frustrating to hear and see all this behavior from other men, as if the concept of simply being polite to complete strangers without then asking them for a date is somehow too great of a burden to bear. Worse, the standard response when asking a guy why he gleefully acts like a jackass towards women seems to be that I’m just not in on some sort of let’s-treat-women-like-shit joke.
This reads like badly constructed satire, but evidently it’s real, and there really are guys who think like this:
http://archive.heinessen.com/r9k/thread/11116335
This is why I love my bluetooth headset. I just hit the switch so the light turns on and then start talking to the dial tone. Way more effective ‘leave me the hell alone’ device than mere earbuds.
After reading that, I have to wonder how many women are clutching their earbuds triumphantly, proclaiming, “YES! They work!!!”
My HP 2000 came with Windows 8. Brilliant idea, Microsoft! Selling me a phone/tablet-oriented operating system on a machine that doesn’t have a touchscreen. I wound up installing Mint Linux and telling the installer to use the whole volume. If I get tired of this user interface, I can download another of a dozen or more. When updates for the operating system or any of my installed packages become available, the system will display a little icon and wait for me to tell it what to do, instead of preempting whatever I happen to be doing at the time.
Very Rev @ #16, i had the same problem with earbuds falling out. For many years I used the over-the-head variety. Then i discovered that tying the two wires together with a sliding toggle, under my chin, (just to put a little tension in them), was sufficient to keep earbuds in place. I use a bit of stiff wire for the toggle. I hope this helps.
Um. You lackwitted little shite. I’ve never read a more petulant, pre-adolescent whinge about such a non-fucking-problem. Here’s some advice for the poor lamb:
1. Get the woman’s attention non-verbally – she’ll most likely take the things out so she can hear you. Perhaps wave or mouth the words “Excuse me…” Even “hi” would do it.
2. If, after introducing yourself, you don’t act like a complete fuckwit – say, like someone who’d describe a woman listening to music as “SHITTING DOWN YOUR THROAT” as if it’s some heartless method of telling you to fuck off ahead of time because this is clearly ALL ABOUT YOU, she might even be happy to have a conversation with you! Amazing!
Sigh.
No wonder PUAs have such a hard time – it would appear that the “playing field” has to be fucking perfect in order for them to get their apparently exceedingly brittle & fragile game on and if even the slightest thing upsets them, it means that women are actively plotting against them, as opposed to living their own lives. Seriously, this is like running screaming off a football field because a seagull landed on the centre line. Spine the fuck up and deal!
Here’s a further piece advice: it’s perhaps better of you not to attempt a cold chat-up if you’re this emotionally fragile. If this is how you react before you even talk to a woman I can only imagine how fucking unhinged you’d get if actually rejected by one.
I’m more Cult of Unix than Cult of Macintosh. It’s just that Apple has been the only real game in town for out of the box home Unix workstations for quite some time. Ubuntu has recently been shipping preinstalled, though, so there might be a challenger. They could do with some prettying up of the UI themes, but the rest is pretty solid.
Yes, I can go and install Ubuntu on most any x86 hardware, and I have done so on one of my older laptops, but even people who can do this in their sleep sometimes want to just have something that works so they don’t have to bother. And the wider market really needs it preinstalled if it’s to make any impact at all.
But ranting about earbuds. They’ve been around a fair bit longer than the iPod. The guy is an idiot blaming it on Apple.
Reading posts like this does make me want to treat women with more respect, to try to make up for the crap they get from creeps like that wannabe PUA. I imagine there are many other men who react the same way. Unfortunately, i don’t think we can balance things out. Damage done is damage done.
@Dick the Damned,
Well, that’s cheaper than the solution I came up with. I bought a pair of LG bluetooth headphones. They look a little dorky around my neck, but they’re very comfortable, and I’m not accidentally yanking my phone out of my pocket since there’s no cords to get caught on. The only problem is they’re counterfeited fairly often, so finding a genuine pair at a decent price can be tricky (I now have one of each).
I do not understand why anyone would go anywhere or even stay in their own home and deliberately set themselves up so they cannot hear anything other than the Music.
Is approaching people a bad thing? Like, without romantic intent. I have no idea how to actually interact with people in real life. If I want to talk to someone for some reason, or pay them a compliment for no real reason other than they may look a bit unhappy, is that bad? Obviously not interrupting them if they look busy, or trying to pick them up or anything. Because if that’s not a socially acceptable thing, how do people meet other people?
I apologize, I don’t understand social interaction at all. How does one approach another person? I don’t think I would be able to work up the courage to cold approach a person, but I’m very curious.
@gworroll
Chromebooks can make a nice little extremely cheap Linux based laptop. Not suitable for a workstation though. Even if they are on a Unix kernel, I just can’t support the restrictive software practices that Apple follows. It’s a shame that Apple has become as restrictive as it is, given the creators’ support of open source back when they started. Ubuntu does a decent job for mainstream consumers, and it’s nice to see it begin to be presented as an option.
Connor Jennings @40
I find talking to people is a good way to approach them. Hitting them on the head and dragging them off by the hair is so paleolithic.
@if you want to meet other people the best option is not a random person on the street. Go to interests you enjoy and meet people there. I met my husband online ironically on a Christian forum. It didn’t start out romantic, but then as we got to know each other over time it did.
The most annoying thing about PUA is the lack of interest in putting in the time of cultivating a relationship. Even most first dates don’t result in relationships. Women are people they unsurprisingly like a lot of things other people do. If they don’t like what you like, find someone who does.
40 @Connor
Honestly, there are so many variables that’s pretty much an impossible question to answer. If you’re unable to learn to read social cues (and I understand that’s a genuine problem), but don’t want to risk offending anyone, you’re best off avoiding approaching people in generic situations where they aren’t specifically there to interact and meet with you. If you want to meet people, organized clubs/social events are the way to go.
Personally, I dislike anyone talking to me in public for any reason. That’s an issue with older people on public transport who like to have a general natter, which is a generational thing. But I’ve had men and women of all ages start conversations with me at bus stops, on trains, and the like — and never once been happy about it. But I’m an extreme case, and everyone will react differently.
Connor Jennings
Just screw up a bit of courage and give the compliment in. I know it sounds utterly useless — I’d have waved it off myself some years ago — but it works.
“Excuse me.” *beat* “I really love your shirt!”
“Hey, nice hat!”
(I still feel like I’m making a complete jackass of myself every time, and that’s okay.)
Connor Jennings
Offering strangers your opinion on their appearance based on your evaluation of their mood is not a way to make friends.
.
Volunteer somewhere.
Join a club.
.
Leave strangers alone unless you want to know if the #616 bus stops here.
@44 Alan Boyle, I agree. There are innumerable variables when it comes to human interactivity so answering the question “How do I approach people?” is bordering on impossible. Just approach them respectfully and mindfully, like a grownup, and see what happens.
I can only broadly relate my own experiences: do stuff with other people, talk to people you like and don’t ever go into a conversation with the sole intent of picking someone up or meeting your future spouse. Don’t try “lines”, don’t read PUA manuals, don’t be aggressive, don’t be a fucking alpha-male hunter, don’t treat talking to a woman like it’s some game you have to win and where access to her vagina is a gold medal. Say hi, say your name, say it’s nice to meet them, then talk.
If someone doesn’t want to pursue anything sexual or romantic with you, you haven’t “failed”. It’s not because you didn’t say exactly the right thing (though it might be because you tried very hard to do so); it’s almost certainly because you just don’t tick all (or enough) of their particular boxes. Which is fine, because not everyone will tick yours. And for the love of humanity don’t blame them for not feeling the way you do – arcing up and getting angry is the most childish and inappropriate way to respond to a “no thanks”.
Also, patience and experience play a huge part in conversing with new people you find attractive. Put your freakin’ libido in the back seat and just talk for a bit. It shouldn’t come as any surprise that even someone who does find you attractive might not want to jump your bones within a few sentences. You should behave the same way. “Get to know the other person” might sound trite and tedious, but we’re not talking about weeks of courting here. It might only take minutes until you both realise something’s cooking – or not, which means you can either decide to be friends and keep talking or go and talk to other people.
This whole ultra-entitled attitude of “women should just expect advances and behave accordingly” is toxic and ridiculous and unfortunately causes splash-damage to men who don’t behave that way. It’s another example of male behaviour being more damaging to other men than any perceived misandry.
The original Schrodinger’s rapist piece, although well-known for other points, lays out a pretty decent set of guidelines on approaching strangers in the middle of the piece. At least, it lays out the nonverbal signals that mean “stop” or “go ahead and talk”. If you want to skip to that part, scroll down to the bolded words “Learn to understand and respect women’s communication to you.” and start there.
Ok, time to be a hypocrite, but if it will end this stupid pc-versus-mac bullshit, let me explain how it works.
Apple and Microsoft both want to control what you can and can’t do, and how you can and can’t do it.
Apple is very good at it, so if you want to do what they want you to do in the way they want you to, you will have a pleasant experience. If you want to do something different, you’re screwed.
Microsoft sucks at it, so if you want to do what they want you to do the way they want you to do it, you’re in for endless frustration. If you want to do something they DON’T want you to do, the possibilities are almost endless. You have the power.
That’s it. The whole deal. Period.
Can we put this shit to rest now?
Some people in this thread are talking as if the post is about something that happened “on the street” (and so concerns about stalking were raised). I read it as if it was occurring in a school or something. The part about the men’s washroom seemed to make that likely, but I guess places like bars have those too (though this still isn’t “the street”), and he does say “in public” when speaking generally, not sure…
When I fly, first thing that happens when I take my seat is that earplugs go in, to signal to anyone in the vicinity to not engage me with empty chatter.
Can’t wait for a decent Linux phone, I just absolutely hate it when hardware secretly phones home, sends my user data to third parties, wants me to create accounts to use my own gadget, and all this other shit you get with Microsoft or Apple products.
@50 brianpansky
The fact that Mr All-Caps Dude-Rage has had a six-month crush on a girl without speaking to her suggests very strongly to me that this took place in a high school. I can’t imagine an actual grownup behaving like this in, say, the setting of a workplace.
How will we get women to sleep with us if we don’t use any tricks!
@ Jafafa Hots
That is the single best summary of Apple and Microsoft I have ever read. +1 internets for you!
@ Hank_Says
Yeah, the fact that the writer had seen (but not talked to) this woman over a period of six months seems to indicate they might go to school together, or that they are coworkers. But they might just live in the same area and frequent the same coffee shop/bar/whatever. Or he could be following her around. I don’t think there’s enough context here to figure it out.
But it does indicate that he thinks all it takes is one magic pick-up line that makes her swoon, and then they’ll immediately go fuck (if it weren’t for those damned earbuds, of course!). But as most people who live in reality know, that’s generally not how things work.
To Alan Boyle and anyone else who needs a tip or two:
As has been stated and just to reiterate: go out and do something that is fun for you or excites you or fulfills you. If it’s something you’re even half-way passionate about then there are countless opportunities for “Excuse me, I was wondering if you knew how to…” or “Do you know the best way to … I seem to be stuck.” People want to be needed. You are even complimenting them about something they’re likely half-way passionate about as well – and without it being obvious that’s what you’re doing!
Right now I’m going to the gym because I’m serious about it. I see people there every day, interact briefly with several of them, attend a couple group classes a week. I’m not there *to* meet people, but it’s just something that happens as you spend time and get familiar with them. I plan on running a 5k soon©, so there are plenty of things I can do until then, such as finding someone about the same shape as me to help motivate each other or share our accomplishments with. And that makes a big difference when the other person knows what a big deal your victories are to you because they have a shared experience of that challenge and/or that victory.
So, anyway, the safe assumption is that the default state for nearly every other person in the world is to be social and meet people that they think are interesting and pleasant to talk with or do things with. You can be that person. You are that person to at least one other person. The odds are in your favor on that one! But the truth is that a lot of people will like you. You just have to first not be preoccupied with other people. And then you can preoccupy yourself with friends.
She shit down his throat? What an interesting way of saying she didn’t do anything at all. I can’t even imagine how many random guys I’ve accidentally shit-down-the-throats of in my life.
Also, what are the odds he would have actually preferred that to being ignored?
@Nate #11
Sigh. The factories were Foxconn’s, and the workers were Foxconn employees. If you like buying computers and other high-tech products, good luck to you boycotting all things made by Foxconn (or any of the other similar Chinese electronics contract manufacturers, for whom all the same work environment concerns apply). You’re going to need it.
Despite the cluster of suicides which led to Foxconn (not Apple!) putting nets up, the suicide rate among Foxconn workers was actually lower that year than the Chinese and US national averages. This is not to say that working conditions inside Foxconn were or are ideal, just pointing out that the reality was and is a little more complex than “suicide-inducing hellhole”.
Furthermore, you are infuriatingly ignorant if you think Foxconn’s attitude was “just put up nets”. Tragically, the suicide cluster may have been influenced by a well-meant benefit Foxconn had instituted, a life insurance policy paid out to families of employees who committed suicide. It wasn’t fully thought through: telling a depressed person experiencing suicidal ideation that their dependents will get a large lump sum payment may take away one of the last reasons they have to keep going.
Ironically, if you want to feel warm and fuzzy about workers being treated well without actually learning much about the issues, Apple is probably your best bet right now. One of the outcomes of the suicide scandal was that they started doing voluntary self audits on various ethical concerns in their supply chain, insisting suppliers like Foxconn raise worker pay, cracking down on use of child labor to build their products, and a bunch of other things. They publish yearly reports on their website.
I’m sure you’re feeling cynical about that, and with good reason — it’s difficult to tell whether it’s just a token gesture. The thing is, nobody else in the industry is doing even that much. Want to guess why? It’s because the Nates of the world had a nice juicy Apple scandal to obsess over, so everyone else got (and still gets) a free pass.
I’m sure it makes you feel great to hate on a scapegoat which you would hate for other reasons anyways, but please don’t pretend that you’re doing anything about the problem.
Thank you for your responses. I would like to mention that I have relatively little interest in actually approaching or meeting people, but I’m curious as to how it all works. The rules of human interaction seem so complex, some people respond as if they would like to be approached, others as if they never want approached. How are these rules learned? Is it solely through experience and trial/error, or through things like portrayals in movies and media, or something else? How regional are unwritten rules of interaction? I assume in major cities, the rules can be more strict due to a general higher threat level.
Since I am male, is it assumed that if I begin an interaction with a member of the opposite sex that I have a romantic and/or sexual intent (in the majority of circumstances)? What is my intent assumed to be when I begin an interaction with a member of the same sex? How long is too long in terms of looking in someone’s general direction? (I ask this question because I have had men try to fight me before for absentmindedly staring in their direction for too long). Do you have to constantly think about your body language in order to maintain an optimal outward appearance?
This all seems very difficult. It is assumed that all people understand these rules to social interaction well? Is communication so indirect as a result of a lack of trust? Meaning that one cannot believe what a stranger says directly because they must be initially skeptical to look out for their personal safety. Is this different in safer areas? Do most of these rules stem from personal safety concerns?
On a different note, someone used the term “date”. How is that determined, if not agreed upon by both parties ahead of time? It must have to do with romantic intent. How does one signal that they are not interested romantically, but are open to other forms of social interaction? Given the other signalling involved in interactions, directly stating so seems unlikely to be an optimal solution.
Again I apologize. Please do not feel as if you need to answer all of my questions. I am just curious and pondering aloud. I have much reading to do on the subject.
It is amazing to me how these guys like to act like they are “alphas” but when things don’t go their way they just whimper.
*facepalm*
Reason #47588368403759 to not post drunk: I make incredibly ignorant and off-topic statements like that one.
I’m really sorry, y’all. Won’t happen again. (And yes, I’m still drunk… I’ve just sobered up enough to realize the mistake I made.)
Well, juggling is probably okay..
Thirty-some-odd years ago I worked for a couple of weeks with a guy that hated women. He was obsessed. If a woman in traffic next to us did not look at him she was a “stuck-up bitch.” If she did look at him and then drove off, she was a “fucking cock tease.” He thought that all women were ‘gold-digging sluts” who would have nothing to do with him because he didn’t have money and clothes and an expensive car etc
He had no idea how to approach women, almost as though they were some kind of different species. He resented them for just being alive, and blamed them for his inability to connect. He was foul mouthed and obscene and really had me freaked out.
The last straw came one day when we arrived at a job where our work was in the back yard of a suburban home. When we first walked into the backyard there were two young women sunbathing in bikinis in the adjacent backyard. Being a couple of young men in our early twenties we both did our obligatory gawk over the fence to check them out, and then went to work. But this guy couldn’t stand it. He kept looking over the fence and talking about how these girls were just trying to tease us etc. Finally the women had enough and picked up and went inside. At that point my coworker got upset, started cursing about “stuck-up cock teases” and then said he should have jumped the fence and tied the girls down to their chairs with wire (we were electricians) and “fucked the shit out of them because they deserved it.” He was literally in a rage.
That afternoon I went to my boss, told him about it, told him I wouldn’t work with the guy any more and that if he was smart he would get rid of him before something bad happened. My boss did let him go (probably after consulting with his wife).
If he hadn’t seemed so dangerous I could almost have felt sorry for this guy and how his frustration at his inability to connect with women had twisted his mind to the point that he constantly fantasized that women were purposely antagonizing him or purposely ignoring him. He was like a time bomb.
Candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker.
-Ogden Nash
Yeah. People vary, depending on both core temperament and mood/circumstances. There are guides online to specific body language that in a particular culture indicates relative openness to being interacted with. I don’t remember the URL offhand, but you can google phrases like “interpreting body language guide”. I know there are some books available too.
A combination of neurotypicals* being able to pick them up by osmosis/observation/”intuitively” and trial and error.
*Note: I am using “neurotypical” here in its original sense, contrasted with people who have autism-spectrum disorders and the like. In other words, the “I” in the “well why should *I* have to LEARN something to interact with you when YOU’RE the one who’s WEIRD?!” I realize it’s been appropriated by people with depression and the like but normal social functioning otherwise, to the point where this has practically obscured the original meaning. I’m not sure how to feel about this.
Portrayls in movies and media are not to be trusted; at best they’re usually exaggerated, at worst they’re based on and reinforcing completely toxic ideas.
Fairly, though most neurotypicals, who pick them up intuitively within their own region, seem schadenfreudulently oblivious to this.
There does seem to be a rural-vs-urban divide in terms of openness to strangers and interaction with no ulterior function. That said, different cities have different characters in this regard also (some, like New York and Boston, are rather famous for people with low tolerance for “pointless” interaction, others are well known as being “friendly”).
Generally, unfortunately.
Harder to answer. Anyone else?
More than a second or two is usually unwelcome, but this seems to be pretty random, in an accidentally-on-purpose mean-spirited way.
Neurotypicals apparently don’t. People who aren’t tend to.
It is. I’ve never heard a coherent answer as to what neurotypicals get out of doing this to themselves, and non-neurotypicals.
Generally, yes. And that if you seem not to you’re deliberately being rude, and/or think you’re special and that rules don’t apply to you, and/or that you’re likely to try to remove and wear their faces. Frustrating
I’m…not…sure, actually. O.o
“Date” generally has the connotation of a preplanned, arranged meeting, someplace public, between two people who are either actual romantic partners or intend to determine whether they might wish to become such.
I think “friends” carries this connotation to people who aren’t acting in bad faith. I’m not sure if there’s a good one for people who are.
Don’t. It’s not your fault neurotypicals made things confusing.
Azkyroth
Thank you very much for your responses. I have actually begun reading through an autism survival guide on wikibooks, and things are laid out in a very sensible and logical manner. I have never had interactions with a neuroatypical person or community before. It is a very promising thing to come across, I am pleased to have finally commented on this blog after years of lurking. I have much to read and consider. Thank you once again.
Does no one have an ounce of compassion?
The guy is probably in middle school or high school (isn’t the term crush lost upon high school graduation?) and probably finally worked up the courage to talk to her. For one thing, how else would he know her for that long and then enter a bathroom to get ready? When it didn’t go as planned, he freaked a little and bailed and needed to blow some steam, but instead gets labeled as a creep. Nice to see how many people just assumed the worst.
My guess is an early-20something adult at uni or coworkers with his target. He says his problem is with women, not girls–which is what I’d have expected a highschooler to say.
@w h 65
Seriously? An innocent person is just going about their day, listening to music or podcast/audiobook, and she deserves to be thought of in these terms by some random guy who’s been pining over her/stalking her for months? I have not an ounce of sympathy for him. He’s treating this *person* as though she’s been put on this earth to meet his needs, an object that he’s entitled to.
You’re assuming too much. He’s cursing Steve Jobs for making earplugs. That should say enough about the rant. This is the user blowing steam and isn’t some draconian view on women.
Thirty-some-odd years ago I worked for a couple of weeks with a guy that hated women. He was obsessed. If a woman in traffic next to us did not look at him she was a “stuck-up bitch.” If she did look at him and then drove off, she was a “fucking cock tease.” He thought that all women were ‘gold-digging sluts” who would have nothing to do with him because he didn’t have money and clothes and an expensive car etc
He had no idea how to approach women, almost as though they were some kind of different species. He resented them for just being alive, and blamed them for his inability to connect. He was foul mouthed and obscene and really had me freaked out.
The last straw came one day when we arrived at a job where our work was in the back yard of a suburban home. When we first walked into the backyard there were two young women sunbathing in bikinis in the adjacent backyard. Being a couple of young men in our early twenties we both did our obligatory gawk over the fence to check them out, and then went to work. But this guy couldn’t stand it. He kept looking over the fence and talking about how these girls were just trying to tease us etc. Finally the women had enough and picked up and went inside. At that point my coworker got upset, started cursing about “stuck-up cock teases” and then said he should have jumped the fence and tied the girls down to their chairs with wire (we were electricians) and “fucked the shit out of them because they deserved it.” He was literally in a rage.
That afternoon I went to my boss, told him about it, told him I wouldn’t work with the guy any more and that if he was smart he would get rid of him before something bad happened. My boss did let him go (probably after consulting with his wife).
In a way I felt sorry for this guy and how his frustration at his inability to connect with women had twisted his mind to the point that he constantly fantasized that women were purposely antagonizing him or purposely ignoring him. He was like a time bomb.
On the one hand, it’s funny to watch so obvious a loser strike out, without even getting to the plate. Schadenfreude is the most honest emotion I know. On the other hand, it’s kind of creepy to see the sense of entitlement this loser has. On the third hand (damn this gamma radiation!), a genuine pickup artist wouldn’t waste six months mooning over a girl.
I’m not buying that, w h.
Assuming that this person went through a process of growing up which involved playgroup or kindergarten or games in the back alley and/or went an ordinary school then he must have walked with, talked with, interacted with girls without even thinking about it.
I acknowledge that not everyone has had that experience but we are pretty understanding of those who have not – see above.
So what happened? When did a perfectly normal interaction with his fellow humans turn into some sort of test where he has to find the right moment, use the right trick and, oh, it has to work every time.
When girls and young women develop these daft notions we tend to assume they’ve been reading too much romantic drivel. Well, men absorb an awful amount of romantic drivel, too. It’s just not the same drivel.
This man’s trouble began not with the poor woman’s earbuds but when he stopped seeing his fellow students / co-workers / whatever as people and thus lost the ability just to speak to them.
And, yes, we can tell all that from a single rant. Some of us are women and have been observing such nonsense for decades.
Speaking only for my own Furry self, I do occasionally forget “how to human”.
Of course, Steve Jobs didn’t exactly invent headphones. Or earbuds for that matter.
I use earbuds for this specific purpose. It gives me a perfect excuse to stare blankly and pretend not to hear anything guys are yelling at me while I’m walking or on my bike.
I recommend “yurbuds”. I just found them and they seem to solve a lot of the problem of the things falling out of your ears at the slightest bit of tension on the cord. And they’re very comfy and have good sound quality without blocking ambient noise.
And, w h, yes. We can totally tell.
@70 wh
The mature response to such a situation is “damn my shyness, I don’t know how to say hello when she’s wearing headphones”. It is emphatically not to rant about how women “should be open to cold approaches.” I almost read this as satire based on that line, but if it is serious then it displays an attitude a lot of women are all too used to.
Many wear headphones in public for exactly that reason. Because it’s easier than listening to the verbal abused that occurs after turning a guy down, or having him think it’s ok to put his hands all over you because you’ve actually acknowledged his existence. It doesn’t stop people from asking questions like “how do I get to XYZ” which can in fact start a friendly conversation. But it does stop most “cold approaches.”
A guy posting a rant like this after failing to even approach a woman is highly likely to be one of those who turns nasty, to her face or on the internet, after being turned down. And if he’s been following her around for 6 months without ever introducing himself, she probably knew it.
No, I don’t feel the need to have compassion for men who get shot down in their romantic aims. Or, in this case, who abandon ship before getting shot down (to mix a few metaphors). Guess what? Everybody gets shot down. It’s part of life. I’ve been rejected many a time and I dealt with it. My friend, who’s a guy, asked a girl out on a date today and she said no. Not a big fucking deal. No, you don’t get “compassion” for this sort of bullshit. Shut up.
@w h,
read the entire thread where the guy posted his rant, linked at #30 by Tony Sidaway.
It’s not pretty.
oops, wh was at @65 sorry.
Connor Jennings,
Yes. This is because people are individuals, with different preferences, rather than some sort of automatons that follow fixed rules. You can get some idea if a stranger is open to communication based on circumstances and body language, but you are never going to get it right 100% of the time.
And even if you do, talking to random strangers is unlikely to be particularly rewarding, because there is no reason to think you actually have anything on common or would enjoy each other’s company. If you want to meet and socialize with new people, you are far better off going to things like meetup groups or volunteering groups or classes; at least there, you can be sure that people are 1. generally open to socializing and 2. have at least one interest in common with you.
Fear of rejection explains why he took so long and why working himself up to the moment was such a big deal.
Maureen, most recreational time growing up (say ages 5-10) I saw as largely divided by gender (1992-1997 in an small rural east coast town if difference in generation and environment is to be disputed). Working at after school programs also reinforces this belief. I remember having to ask a girl sitting next to me if I could borrow her scissors and hearing the resultant sing-song KISSING rhyme for some time after. I still had issues talking to women outside my social circle in high school because of shit like that.
Give this kid a break, he’ll likely learn eventually, he just needed a place to vent. There are more constructive ways of doing so admittedly, but his rant clearly speaks of anxiety and tension.
I don’t really get why having a crush for a long time is stalkerish. I mean we have no idea how they’re put in contact with each other. I mean he could be actually like following her, or could be just in the same class with her. I mean the response beyond that is reprehensible, but seriously?
Is this even worth 80 comments?
1. There is absolutely no reason to think that he is a kid.
2. He won’t learn if he receives reinforcement for the idea that this is an acceptable response to a woman wearing fucking earbuds. Which is why it is so important to call out this shit; so we can change the cultural narrative to one where women can go about their daily business without douchebag guys assuming that they are entitled to our attention.
wh
Totally.
With the young woman whose crime it was to go about her day without doing any harm and who is accused of “shittig down his throat”?
Yes.
With the entitled dude who thinks that women must be open for his advances whenever it’s convenient for him with no regard to her wishes?
No.
Innocent rant: “Damn, I just took courage to talk with her and she was wearing earplugs, I’m so damn unlucky”
This: Entitled fuckwit.
w h @68
Interesting, if he’s merely cursing at Steve Jobs and blowing steam, why is there so much draconian stuff about women in the post (i.e. “Women constantly shit down my throat” [transl.: women keep having lives that don’t revolve around me], “she strangled my attempt before it was even out of the crib” [transl.: women don’t let their lives revolve around me], “why do you women wear these all the time in public… just be open and receptive to cold approaches” [transl.: why the fuck should women have lives that don’t revolve around me?])?
If it was truly about the earbuds, he would use phrases more like, “Fuck earbuds, they screw with my approach to women” (which still isn’t particularly pleasant); if it was about Steve Jobs, it would be more like “Why the hell did Steve Jobs think earbuds were a good idea?” (which also still isn’t particularly pleasant). But instead, no, the problem is with the women using the earbuds. In public, no less. And, as an aside, fuck Steve Jobs. But really, it’s his (Steve’s) fault that women have decided to use his invention (*ahem* except it’s not, haha), and women have made themselves difficult to approach by having lives that don’t revolve around cold approaches from strange men.
Boo fucking hoo, I’m just so full of compassion and sympathy for this guy. Not.
Giliell
Apparently, we share an opinion on this. :) Yours seems to be more concise.
Yes, it is (since what you’re asking is a highly subjective judgment call, my position is unassailable.) However, it would have been worth 81 at the time of your posting, but I believe everyone can agree that you posted a worthless turd. So sad.
This just makes me think of American Psycho.
Telling that this metaphor has the woman as committing infanticide. Maybe I’m doing some mind-reading here, but I’d associate this level of vitriol with someone who truly despised and mistrusted women.
… It’s metaphorical, because I couldn’t find a picture with an actual pump.
@83 Giliell wote:
I don’t get these accusations of entitlement. It took him 6 months to screw up the courage to talk to this woman. If he was so cocksure of his irresistible charms, why did it take so long and why was he defeated by a pair of ear-plugs?
What are the chances that he actually suffers from low self-esteem?
I’m sure. That doesn’t mean his attitude isn’t vile and degrading – even if it is clearly a product of mass-marketed PUA bullshit.
PUA ultimately exists as an industry to make a few people rich by exploiting men with poor self-esteem and lack of social intelligence. It does that by turning them into weird sexually-aggressive predators and would-be rapists.
procrastinatorordinaire:
Speaking as someone with a lifetime of experience with low self-esteeem, I’d find your diagnosis more convincing if his reaction had been something like “why am I such a loser?” or “of course she was unreceptive to me, like I expected”. Low self-esteem means he’d be more, not less, likely to blame himself when an interaction doesn’t go the way he planned.
I tend to agree with the less generous interpretation.
Obviously, reading a book doesn’t work anymore to signal
to annoying guys to leave woman alone. Thus, stronger means
are necessary.
But also (and just slightly less seriously), something must have gone wrong in society if people actually
think Apple basically invented music.
@90 procrastinatorordinaire
Confidence and entitlement are entirely different beasts. The entitlement is the fact that he expects the target of his affections, a person with their own life and desires and likes, to be receptive to his desire to enter into some kind of relationship at his convenience and on his time scale. He blames the woman for “not being receptive”. He says she’s shat down his throat.
What exactly do we see here?
1 – She’s not a person, she’s a target.
2 – Being a target, the hunt requires stalking, preparation, timing and camouflage.
3 – When the hunt fails, it’s the fault of the target who’s been ungettable on purpose… somehow.
What isn’t happening:
1 – Seeing women as people who you can… you know, talk to. Like people.
2 – Actually getting to know someone before attempting to instigate some kind of relationship. Because knowing what a person likes and dislikes and how compatible you actually are is important. Though, admittedly, first you have to see them as a person and actually -care- that they have wants/needs/eccentricities. That tends to be a hurdle.
3 – On rejection (pre-emptive rejection even), recognising that again, women are people and their world doesn’t revolve around you.
The attitude that PUAs promote is that women are metaphorical hunting trophies. They’re foreign, exotic, dangerous and you don’t want to get too close, because you might end up feeding her babies. You have to attract them with an enticing display (like chumming the water to attract fish or using a decoy and duck call), engage their interest with some kind of trick or line, then from there you steer sexwards. If successful and sex is “gotten”, you take the trophy (write it down, keep underwear, whatever other creepy shit you can think of) and get as far away from the already-bagged target as possible.
Instead of… talking to people. Though PUAs discourage that, because “friendzone”. That concept that says that friends and sex partners are mutually exclusive and that women owe you sex if you do certain things, and if they don’t want to they’ve “friendzoned” you.
The language from the guy in the OP is drenched in this crap.
@90
“I don’t get these accusations of entitlement.”
Go to the source it’s in the link, such wonderful reading:
Earbuds are great. Smart phones too. Nothing says “not interested in talking to you” like wearing earbuds and reading on a smart phone. But I’m not sexist: it’s totally cool with me if men and third gendered or non-gendered people use this technique too.
@90: One of the classic signs of antisocial personality disorder is blaming everyone but yourself when things go wrong. The OP may have low self-esteem, but he also has no insight.
procrastinatorordinaire #90
Really?
You don’t get why this sounds entitled? He’s basically saying that she is being mean to him by not behaving in a manner that makes it easy for him to approach her. He literally says that she should rearrange her life in order to make herself available to his advances.
If that’s not entitlement, please explain what would be.
duce7999:
Whenever someone calls themselves an alpha male, I always visualize them as wearing a home-made badge, with “alpha male” drawn on in crayon. When it comes to internet MRAs, I’m probably not that far from the truth.
I’m curious about what he meant by “Cleaned myself up.” Did he splash a little water on his face and combed his hair or did he have to hose off a layer of horseshit? Or worse, blood. Come on man, context! Do you two work together in a slaughterhouse? A coal mine? An auto repair shop? A sugar cane plantation? Do you work outside and she in the office? I really want to know.
If any of the old tales i’ve heard are true, robertfoster, he was probably shaving his palms.
procrastinatorordinaire
Because it bears repeating: He’s entitled because he thinks that just because he has worked up the courage to do something*, she should be receptive and open without no consideration for whatever she might want at all.
It’s like getting angry at somebody for not being at home when you call them out of the blue: It tells a lot about the person getting angry, nothing about the person who’s not at home.
*something that is generally not actually welcome
rorschach #51:
You really should go shopping sometime. Most phones these days run Android, which is Linux based, and neither Microsoft or Apple owned (it’s Google owned instead, so you may run into some of the same problems, though).
rq #89:
I actually read that as him ‘pumping up’ a completely different part of his anatomy, especially as he said he has to ‘clean himself up’ afterwards.
Thirty-some-odd years ago I worked for a couple of weeks with a guy that hated women. He was obsessed. If a woman in traffic next to us did not look at him she was a “stuck-up bitch.” If she did look at him and then drove off, she was a “fucking cock tease.” He thought that all women were ‘gold-digging sluts” who would have nothing to do with him because he didn’t have money and clothes and an expensive car etc
He had no idea how to approach women, almost as though they were some kind of different species. He resented them for just being alive, and blamed them for his inability to connect. He was foul mouthed and obscene and really had me freaked out.
The last straw came one day when we arrived at a job where our work was in the back yard of a suburban home. When we first walked into the backyard there were two young women sunbathing in bikinis in the adjacent backyard. Being a couple of young men in our early twenties we both did our obligatory gawk over the fence to check them out, and then went to work. But this guy couldn’t stand it. He kept looking over the fence and talking about how these girls were just trying to tease us etc. Finally the women had enough and picked up and went inside. At that point my coworker got upset, started cursing about “stuck-up cock teases” and then said he should have jumped the fence and tied the girls down to their chairs with wire (we were electricians) and “fucked the shit out of them because they deserved it.” He was literally in a rage.
That afternoon I went to my boss, told him about it, told him I wouldn’t work with the guy any more and that he seemed dangerous. My boss did let him go (probably after consulting with his wife).
In a way I almost felt sorry for this guy and how his frustration at his inability to connect with women had twisted his mind to the point that he constantly fantasized that women were purposely antagonizing him or purposely ignoring him. He was like a time bomb.
It has been said already, but it bears repeating: The entitlement is particularly obvious from this line.
No. I don’t want to be open to cold approaches. Practically nobody does. He is basically commanding 50% of humans to do something they don’t want to do just so he can get his peen wet.
It’s been 3 posts, so, w h: fuck you. Stop defending entitled sexist assholes.
It could be straight I guess, but it does have the heady ring of self aware hyperbole to it. Someone who at least knows they are being faintly (and then some) ridiculous.
Poe’s Law and all that I guess.
@90
procrastinatorordinaire
Aside from the great feedback everyone else has already given you for this, I must point out that entitlement (and, obviously, misogyny) are not mutually exclusive from low self esteem.
If you spend time reading forums where men are trying to work on their “game” or whatever you will find this. Low self esteem and lots of hating on women for banal things like this.
rq wrote:
This could work: Inflatable muscle shirt costume
w h @65:
OH NOES!!!!! Some people on one blog expressed the opinion that an anonymous dude on a message board is a creep! This will haunt that poor man forever! THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING WORSE IN THE WORLD! “Labeled,” you say? MORE LIKE BRANDED FOR LIFE with the most vile insult anyone could ever come up with!
“Well, Mr. Jones, you seem very qualified for the job, but I’m afraid we can’t hire you. You see, our extensive investigation of you has uncovered that you are the person who some commenters on Pharnygula determined was a ‘creep.’ That’s good enough for us. In fact, we’ve alerted the police, and they’re on their way.”
One thing I notice about the poster(s) who said, “But what if he just has low self-esteem?”: They never even consider the possibility that SHE might have low self-esteem and therefore not be ready to respond to him, even if she secretly has the hots for him too. Yet another way that women are seen as less than human by MRAs.
Also, suppose the reality of the situation is the scenario most favorable to the OP: The woman in question really is “stuck up” and slighting the guy (who really is a nice guy with a low self esteem) intentionally. Why would he want to be anywhere near her in that case? The ONLY way he could still want to have anything to do with her is if he thought of her as a walking vagina and nothing else. There simply is no interpretation in which the OP looks good.
Jeezy Chreezy,
If that was how he responded when she had in earbuds, what would have happened if he tried to pick her up, neg her etc and she turned him down? If not living her life to please him was “shitting down his throat” and comparative to babby kill’n, what would the word “No” crossing her lips be?
We don’t know he’s a student. Stop calling him a “kid”. He isn’t a child, however much he may tantrum.
The “low self esteem” thing gets trotted out every time a conversation about men hitting on women or harassing women or propositioning women on elevators comes up.
Old bullshit is old and also bullshit.
When do we get to start skipping this step in the conversation?
Depends on a lot of things, but I’d be very careful with compliments*: even when the recipient is unhappy and doesn’t just happen to look that way to you, they might read way too much, in several different directions, into why you’re making them a compliment – and then they might end up very confused if they can’t come up with a convincing hypothesis.
* Uh, not so much “I’d be” as “I am”. Basically I don’t make any unless I’m sure someone would be outright sad otherwise.
QFT.
That varies. There are some that are universal across Western culture or even beyond, and there are some that vary on a much smaller scale. There are places in the US where it’s rude when you don’t talk to the random stranger who’s standing at the same bus stop as you; there are others where it’s rude if you don’t leave random strangers alone even when they’re visibly bored.
That’s… regional. I’m getting the impression that in the US (which is not where I live) the answer is “yes”.
Anything but romantic or sexual!
Yes, mercilessly.
When you’re angry, do you rant about something completely unrelated? I think this guy is thinking “if earbuds didn’t exist, women would have no choice but to listen to my pick-up lines whenever I feel like it, so the main seller of earbuds is at fault”.
David @111
“When you’re angry, do you rant about something completely unrelated? ”
Yes actually. It’s what people call a joke. A kind of self mockery at one’s own emotional reaction to a situation.
Of course, we don’t know this for sure, but people really need to consider the possibility. It’s quite normal behaviour and happens all the time.
Uh, not so much “I’d be” as “I am”. Basically I don’t make any unless I’m sure someone would be outright sad otherwise.
Perhaps this is unclear to me, DM, but are you suggesting that there’s some level of public emotion of an unacceptable/undesirable kind for a person, beyond which it becomes okay to offer random compliments?
Because I can think of a number of scenarios in which I would be feeling bad enough to be publicly emotional about it, and in which I would find random compliments distracting, undermining, or downright counterproductive.
I don’t see it as my place or my business to audit other people’s emotions or responses to them, nor to impose my idea of what those emotions “should” be.
I could see it that you might be saying “I will offer a compliment if I think someone is directly fishing for one,” but it’s unclear, so I hope you don’t mind my asking.
OK, yes. But such sarcasm would be more obvious.
Of course, so is entitled assholery
Sorry, I should have explained I’m coming from the other direction: apparently some people are sometimes in the mood to offer random compliments – I never am; I can’t even empathize with that.
The two scenarios I have in mind are 1) praising my grandma’s cooking – it is great, but I take that for granted, so I have to remind myself that she hopes to be told; 2) saying things along the lines of “come on, it’s not that bad” to close friends who are having a bout of feeling like steaming shit.
Thought it might be, thx DM.
David @114
Not necessarily. Perhaps in the context or to the audience it was intended for the absurdity would be obvious. Perhaps the author likes to play with expectations and has a love of the straight faced excessive delivery as humour, or did at this particular moment.
*after scrolling up to comment 114 and then figuring out which part of it is being replied to*
Bad for him, then. He’ll be misinterpreted as serious and an asshole again and again – in the interest of everyone including himself, he should stop.
Low self esteem, entitled, and creep are not mutually exclusive labels.
re 114:
QFT. To back this up, I have to share my own “situation”. As a recipient of a TBI, and participating in the Brain Injury Survivor’s Support group, the issue of receiving compliments, such as, “You look great!” and how to deal with them, is a huge issue. Not just for TBIsurvivors, but everyone. Compliments are very tricky, and not really a good way to introduce yourself. Remember, “first impressions” are not subject to do-overs. Compliments seem like a good idea, “what’s wrong with saying something Good about the person?”, but it is so easy to backfire. Just avoid them till you know the person better. People have lots of parts, not just the thing the compliment may be about. Those other parts might get in the way of the compliment.
—
TL;DR: Compliments don’t always work as intended.
The rules definitely vary. We’ve had people from other states come visit us and after a while, they’ll comment that we must know everyone in town, because we’ll stop and talk to them. We don’t. Those people are total strangers. If you’re out and about, you wave or nod at everyone you pass here. They may ask how you are and you exchange pleasantries briefly, comment on the weather and continue on your way without ever having any idea who you just talked to. Even with my earbuds in, I do the minimum “wave and nod” move when I’m walking. Otherwise, I feel rude.
The low self esteem excuse is a steaming pile of manure. One of the people I love most in the world genuinely does have communication issues and low self esteem and would never take this kind of shittastic entitled attitude to anyone.
This is unrefined, raw-sewage quality bullshit, and it is lazily and self-indulgently shitting on decent people who actually happen to be non-neurotypical. As several people here with first-person experience of social communication issues have noted.
I emphatically and cordially invite anyone who persists in mixing up PUA crap with this kind of an excuse to go and fuck themselves.
Just to make it super-extra-creepy, same guy elaborating a little bit, emphasis added by me:
Here’s hoping the woman he’s obsessing over keeps putting her earbuds in whenever she sees this slimy weirdo anywhere nearby or, better still, gets the hell away from him ASAP. She shouldn’t have to do either of those things, but it looks as if taking hints aren’t something this guy does very well, if at all. [/understatement]
Sugarfrosted @82:
If you read the linked thread on the original post being talked about, he does actually say he spent time stalking the woman on Facebook to find out what she talks to her friends about (and HE used the word ‘stalked.’)
Wow. It’s not even “Damn that woman for wearing earbuds”, it’s “Fuck Steve Jobs for inventing earbuds that might find their way into the ears of a woman I want to use.” The woman has no agency at all.
zmidponk @106
To be honest, same here, but I couldn’t find a picture that adequately described my mental image, so I had to go for the more SFW version. :( I was sad.
And this guy sounds creepier and creepier. Facebook stalking? I know it’s all public n all, but wow… Keep those earbuds in, unknown woman!!!
Facebook stalking: reason #8453468874543 to hate Facebook
@115 Jackie the wacky
But in this case, no one was hit on, no one was harassed and no one was propositioned. The guy worked up the courage to try to talk to this woman, found that she was not receptive and walked away. As far as we know, she was oblivious to the whole event.
His rant is ridiculous and frequently obnoxious, but, if the account is true, he did respect this woman’s boundaries.
It was many years ago now, but I still remember what it was like to be an awkward, nerdy, spotty young man with the social skills of a boiled carrot. That is why I am somewhat sympathetic to the OP.
Reluctantly, with little grace, and only because he felt he had no other choice. Note the “it’s suicide” comment.
He “respected her boundaries” in the same way a robber might respect the property of a person who has a “trespassers will be shot” sign posted in the front lawn; because he didn’t think he could get away with not doing it.
I remember, too. Aside from “young” and “spotty”, it still largely holds true. It would never occur to me to post something like this.
As someone who is frequently socially awkward, I’m suck and fucking tired of behavior like this being attributed to my group. Akwardness doesn’t inspire words like that. Thinking you’re entitled to another persons time does.
If the reason or this guy’s behavior is that he’s awkward, shy or has low self-esteem, then the best thing for him is to learn, clearly and quickly, that this is not appropriate behavior. Otherwise, he’ll continue to act like an asshole and alienate people; getting more and more frustrated and having no idea why.
Yeah. Me too. That’s why I *don’t* have sympathy. It’s not necessarily a case of just ‘not having social skills’. Young men (well, men of all ages) can often hold some very privileged, self-centered, toxic attitudes towards women (I kinda did), and, if we do, we need to have them knocked out of us by a hard dose of the real world.
@136 LykeX
She was wearing headphones. She had a sign on the lawn saying ‘please do not disturb’, or maybe she just wanted to listen to something.
But his words belie his actions. He claims to have had a crush on this woman for six months, and it appears he has yet to speak a word to her. If he truly felt entitled to her time, shouldn’t he have acted on that conviction by now?
Well as far as we know, he has not actually behaved inappropriately. I do think that he is on a hiding to nothing, but I think his attitude is the problem more than his actual behaviour. I get the impression that he is rather desperate to impress this woman, and desperation is generally a very unappealing quality in a partner.
And he interpreted that as the equivalent of a “trespassers will be shot” sign. I refer you back to his original comment. He didn’t leave her alone out of respect for her feelings. He left her alone because he didn’t feel like he stood a chance.
Maybe, maybe not. I honestly don’t know. What I do know is that he quite clearly expressed the opinion that she should have made herself available for his approach. That sounds like entitlement to me.
Speech is a behavior.
Another here to say “I, too, was an awkward little nerd.” I also felt a little entitled to the attention of people for whom I held affection, their affection for me be damned.
As for sympathy, any that I would have had for this guy, having harboured the occasional secret & painful crush through school, evaporated the moment he started demanding that women be “open to cold approaches” – as if it’s their responsibility to take into account the feelings of any random chap in her vicinity who might think her attractive, to the point of not even listening to music. Not to mention his epic “shit down my throat” complain at the end, as if listening to music is part of a concerted plot to thwart his manly heart’s desires.
And yes, as others have pointed out, the trivial fact is that Jobs didn’t invent the earbud. Headphones have been around since the 1880s, parents have been complaining about the isolating effect of kids wearing headphones since the 60s & complaining about the even-more-isolating effect of personal music players since the Walkman era of the early 80s onward (that was my era – and I got my first pair of actual earbuds around 1992). I suspect the kid who wrote this was still in nappies when the first mp3 players were rolling off the line, so it’s likely he’s known little else.
@3 and @4 – That’s what I was going to say. When I don’t want people bugging me, I put on my earbuds (and sunglasses outside). I suspected they were dudebro repellants. Now I know the truth.
And as far as Mac v. PC goes, Mac all the way. :)
When it comes to the Mac/PC thing, I find I’m in a similar position to the one I occupy in the dog people/cat people: I’ve had both, simultaneously on occasion, and I love both. I love Chilli, my elderly beagle as much as I loved my socks cat, Guinness, who was taken from me too soon; I love my Asus overpowered gaming flaptop as much as I loved my old LC II during high school (256 glorious colours!), the monstrous G5 that recorded my band’s last album and the iPad I occasionally steal from my wife so I can episodes of stuff I’ve missed on telly that I don’t want to watch on my iPhone.
I can also draw analogies! (Badly, as if in MS Paint with a failing mouse.)
PC = dogs. Eminently flexible, they can be trained to do what you want, how you want. You can go with tried & true training methods or, if you have some skill, tailor your own. There might be a little initial resistance or skittishness around others, but if you’re patient yet firm you’ll be rewarded. They love to play games – just don’t let them dominate you, even in playtime. Remind them who’s the boss.
Mac = cats. They do not exist to serve you, but if you take a little time to learn how they operate and adjust your behaviour accordingly, you’ll have a great relationship. Obviously lovely to look at and hold – just pet gently and remember who’s holding the leash.
Yes, every single child who came of age around the millennium has exactly those same characteristics, just as every single Baby Boomber is basically identical, and how GenX are totally all slackers in every way, every one of them. Also, the world was better Back Then, before the new generation came along to screw everything up.
That’s some kick-ass True Skeptic™-ing there, universalanimosity, along with some real cutting-edge opinion-forming. How did you come up with such fresh new ideas? Was there a sale by the car-boot butcher in the DIY store car park?
For the sake of making a point, I’ll take a moment to pretend I don’t know about the conscious stalking part, charitably assume that he has had some kind of social contact with her and that rather than state he literally never spoke to her, he meant something like he never the opportunity to talk one-on-one with her or about non-work/school related stuff. That’s a situation where a six month crush doesn’t immediately sound creepy to me. I concede my male privilege blinders may likely be interfering with that assessment, though.
Even in that charitable hypothetical version, I’d question the possibility of romance. I’d probably recommend the much more sensible, gradual approach of just having friendly conversations to get socially comfortable with her before entertaining any romantic ideas. That’s the advice I’d give if I believed low self-esteem was the major issue.
But entitlement, Pick-Up Artistry, self-centeredness, and inappropriate anger are the things that stick out and make me worried about what this person is going to do. Given that he was repelled by a pair of earbuds, the possibility he has low-self esteem may have been for everyone’s benefit in this situation. It’s still very disturbing to see how he observes a woman take the common, innocent action of wearing earbuds, quite possibly without knowing about his existence, and treats it as a deeply personal attack. If he knew for certain she was avoiding him, I’d find the anger even more disturbing since it shows a knowing desire to violate boundaries for the unrealistic expectation of selfish gain.
Sorry for the long post…
At 36 years of age I had never once introduced myself to a woman. Ever. I’d been in relationships, had some one night flings, etc, but all had been initiated and driven by the girl. I’m shy. Really shy.
After 11 years in a long term relationship, 6 years married, the last 3 of which were abusive (but I was too insecure to end it), i finally DID end it. Finding myself single, I was both the happiest I’d been in years and the most scared – how would I meet someone else?
With a great deal of prompting from a girl at work (who was FANTASTIC in giving me the confidence and support needed to end the broken marriage – she’s a fixer, and without her I’d still be married and suicidal), I decided I would talk to a girl on the train. We had been on the same train, and parked our cars at the same station every day, for the last 3 years, but never spoken beyond the odd smile of recognition or the one time I pointed out she’d tucked her pant legs into her socks.
I didn’t try to force it. Doing it on the train felt wrong – it would make for an uncomfortable trip. I waited, and one day we both hopped off at the same time, and were walking to our cars right next to each other.
I said “excuse me”, and looked over at her. She looked over, and I stammered an apology, tongue tied. “don’t worry she said – what’s up?”. I introduced myself. She said her name back. We spoke some simple words, and 40 seconds later we were both at our cars. “see you tomorrow – have a great night” she said.
I got into my car, heart thumping like crazy. Got home, gave my kids a huge cuddle, then went out to the back pagola. And burst into tears. Adrenalin comedowns can be hard. I was crying, but happy. She didn’t think i was a creep!
I didn’t see her for a few days, and the next time the train was packed and we were a fair way from each other. We got off at our stop though and somehow we both ended up walking to the car together again. It was gushing down rain, and I jokingly asked her if she wanted me to come pick her up. She laughed, then we walked again to the cars, in the rain – no umbrella, but she wasn’t in a hurry and neither was I. We talked like we’d known each other more than 40 seconds, I felt comfortable, and she certainly seemed to be as well.
We got to our cars, her’s parked opposite mine on other sides of the one-way street. “I was wondering” I asked, “would you be interested in grabbing a drink or something some time”
She was smiling but then her face fell. “I’m so sorry” she said “I have a boyfriend… But I’d really like to keep chatting”
I said something about her not having to apologise and said goodbye. This time there were no tears. This time I felt good – I’d been “rejected”, the thing I feared the most, but it didn’t hurt.
The next day I was waiting in the morning when someone walked up behind me. “hi” she said. “Hi” I said back, and we both just started chatting. Since then we’ve chatted almost every day for 3 months. I’ve made a friend, and I really enjoy her company, and despite the fact it’s a one in a million that we are ever more than friends, I’m happy with that.
What is amazing is the difference in attitudes from people who I tell this story to.
– The female co-worker thinks it’s great – proof that I can meet people, despite my insecurity
– A male coworker laments that I’ve been “friendzoned” and I need to ramp it up so she starts thinking of me sexually and ditches her “loser” boyfriend
– Another male coworker thinks she is “evil” and “keeping me around just in case the other man doesn’t work out”.
Me? I’ve made a friend, and that’s enough. After being in an abusive relationship, it just feels great that there is a girl who wants to speak with me outside of a work environment. From the second time we spoke we were both comfortable and speaking like old friends. And since starting to chat with her on the train, I’ve started to meet other regulars as well. Our little part of the carriage is starting to turn into a micro-community. I’ve got one girl offering me football tickets whenever I want them, someone else has offered me some furniture to help with my seperation/divorce.
So when people say I’ve been “friendzoned” I ask “and what’s wrong with that? Would you rather talk every day to someone whose company you enjoy and who makes you feel good about yourself, or would you rather get a root and never talk to her again?”.
universaltrollosity @ 143:
Just setting your epic, whiny generalisation back twenty years, Grampa Simpson.
We’re talking about a specific overreaction from a person some of have us tentatively reasoned is in his mid-teens; you’re unfairly extrapolating that onto an entire generation.
Should I vacate your lawn now?
Also:
I’ll be here all week.
@146
I don’t appreciate autistic being used as an insult like that. What’s the big problem with being a bit awkward in social situations? Why does that make people treat you like you’re diseased, or insane? Personally, I find people on the autism spectrum to be incredibly genuine, passionate people. I believe that many autistic people would be among the happiest in the world, if people like you didn’t perpetuate the idea that they need to be fixed, and need to be “normal”. There’s nothing better than to have a sincere passion in life and be able to pursue it. But if it comes with a lack of social skills then you get abuse and rejection from society. I will almost always take a person who struggles to put a mask on in public over one who wears so many that they don’t even know what they look like.
Connor Jennings
Two things, in no particular order:
1: Embrace your weirdness, man — it’s part of what makes you you. Normalcy is overrated, anyway.
2: I agree with — and second — your complaint about using “autistic” as an insult.
The subtext here — and it’s not all that sub — is “why is a woman who isn’t open to being sexualy propositioned by all and sundry daring to go out in public”? If you don’t see the problem with that sentiment, w h or anyone else, I don’t see discussing it here being particularly useful to you.
CaitieCat, getaway driver @ 104
Don’t knock masturbation, it’s sex with someone I love.
procrastinatorordinaire @ 135
I, like so many others, do too (though the spots came later). I never took it as a personal attack when a woman existed while not being receptive to advances.
ZLB
Aye. I remember being in similar positions, minus the abusive relationship. It sucks being scared to ask someone out; it can suck to be rejected, but sometimes it’s nice to have a new friend; but in hindsight, the disrespect directed at my friend for not dating me (e.g. not divining what I wanted without me telling her, or daring to date someone else) was probably the worst of it.
@universalanimosity, #143
You know, there’s a kernel of truth in what you say. There’s research that shows more kids today than in previous generations think they’re better than average/special/display narcissistic tendencies. And you know what else that research says? That a key factor is the parenting. So, which generation is really to blame?
And to continue Hank_Says’ fine work…
@ Jacob Schmidt
The disrespect side really has been the only bad bit. People I generally like and respect coming out with ridiculously misogynistic stuff. It’s like that classic old-school line of “I’m not racist, but…”, except now it’s “I respect women, but sometimes you just gotta be alpha. It’s what they want, they just won’t admit it.”
Your addition is the same as the coworker who claims this girl is “evil”. He’ll go out of his way to ask if I spoke with her this morning, then go on a rant about how evil she is for stringing me along – something she ISN’T doing! Being friendly to someone is not stringing them along!
@155 Zee Low Brown: yes, that, or you’ll hear a rant about being “friendzoned”. Oh FIE! Oh calamity! Someone enjoys my company! Pity me, thou observer, for I hath made a friend!
Rage, rage against the dying of my erection!
@universalanimosity #143
This whole generation is a bunch of entitled momma’s boys and princesses.
Whoo, that’s a bit on the gendered side. Momma’s boys=pampered, effeminate wimps. Princesses=spoiled, silly creatures, unlike those noble, admirable princes.
@ Zee Low Brown #147
Maybe she’s a woman, and not a girl? Would you consider a male of the same age to be a boy?
But seriously, folks, if you’re crushing on someone but all they want is your friendship, spine up and accept it or, if it’s too painful to be around them, try and minimise contact or just don’t hang out with them anymore (if that’s at all practical – fortunately for me my worst crushes were on girls not at my school or, after school, on women not in my primary Venn circle). They won’t want you around if all you’re gonna do is moon and mope and you shouldn’t want to be around someone who essentially just causes you pain (even if indirectly and not at all intentionally).
@ Lindsay
Yes, I would, but point taken.
Maybe it’s a cultural thing? Around these parts we use “boy”, “girl”, “male” and “female”. “Man” and “woman”/”lady” tend to often carry negative connotations. Not ageist, although some people do feel age conscious if you use “man”/”woman”. It’s more when you are talking positive about someone you would say “that boy”, but when you talk negative it would be “that man”.
But your point stands.
@Zee Low Brown #159
Yeah, in a lot of places, boy/girl are kind of insulting for adults, and male/female are insulting for humans in general.
@ Lindsay
Seriously, the only time I usually hear “man” or “woman” in my everyday life is when it’s prefixed with “stupid” or “useless”.
Anyway, your point is right. Australian bogan* culture is not something to be proud of, and I’m not, but alas I’m mired in it.
* “bogan” is a local term similar to “redneck”
I don’t know what’s more hilarious – the incredibly silly comments from such an amazingly moral and self-righteous community who are perfect… Or the fact that all of you are so upset over a 4chan post.
Coming soon we’ll have a screenshot of a post from stormfront and be so surprised it is racist? Oh my, a kid ranted about wanting to talk to a girl. Big deal. Someone call the internet police because of misogyny on an anonymous web forum.
Aw sparkles, bless your heart. Off you trot, there’s a good lamb. Grownups are talking.
Well. This primate’s mating strategy seems to be flawed by his approach of encountering the opposite sex by direct interaction. A more successful strategy might be display and observing the reaction. If appreciated, the female probably woul remove the ear buds and send sings of interest that encourage approach. Six months seem to be a long time not reading the other person’s signs.
Also, I am pretty sure ear buds were around before iphones, so no need to blame the late mr. Jobs.
It’s amazing how much empathy you can have with somebody who thinks that women who don’t constantly and consciously look after the fee-fees of men, yet completely fail to have empathy with a woman who’s being maligned for the horrible crime of listening to music instead of making herself available to some dude’s advances.
Let me tell you something: I was once a fat young single woman who’d have loved to be in a relationship. Still all those dude’s never gave me the time of day, not even those who were just as outside of conventional attractiveness as I was. Still somehow I managed NOT to think about them in terms of “shitting down my throat” and strangling babies”. I was not what they were looking for and that was my problem.
Hank, you’re going to have to troll harder if you think ageist insults hurt my fee fees. You ought to consider checking your privilege and stepping back from your internet tough guy world
Being awkward, nerdy, spotty, with the social skills of a boiled carrot would correlate to saying the wrong things TO a woman.
It doesn’t in any way shape or form correlate to posting vile, crude and disgusting comments ABOUT a woman on the internet, as the OP did.
It is entirely possible that he IS an awkward, nerdy, spotty young man with the social skills of a boiled carrot. But none of that is evident in his post.
What his post tells us is that he is ALSO a jerk.
sparkles:
“Fee fees, check my privilege, internet tough guy” – so many buzzwords! Impressive, sparkles.
But I’m not trolling. Trolling would be arriving at a conversation that’s in progress and proceeding to pass judgement on every single person involved in it, to the point of slagging them off for even having the conversation to begin with, because the topic doesn’t meet your standards.
As for ageism: fail. Calling your behaviour childish is simply calling a spade a spade. Your feelings are as irrelevant as your posts thus far.
Anyway, here: have a Competitor ribbon and a slow clap. You’re doing great!
Anyway, I’m not feeding this troll anymore. Shouldn’t have even started!
Everyone, be nice to sparkles. Looks like a new kid.
@Zee 147
Good lard what’s wrong with the male population? Your male colleagues’ comments reveal that they think friendship between persons of different gender impossible, undignified (for the male!) and inadequate. I really find that disturbing and dehumanizing. It’s almost as if life for them works only in bad Hollywood romcom/fraternity categories. Bah!
@lindsay, Zee
You care correct of course concerning using girl on adult women – I reckon the language lacks an appropriate female version of “guy”, i.e. something a bit less formal than “woman” to use in such a context.
btw, the same problem exists in my German mother tongue – there is “Kerl”->guy, but no female equivalent that I can think of. The english alternative to girl, “Gal”, would probably translate to “Mädel”, which again has a slight underage connotation, though like in english it is weaker than that of, girl, “Mädchen”. Maybe our resident Austrian specialist in everything knows a better word :-)
@165 Giliell
All we know about her is that she had earbuds in, how is she being maligned? She did nothing wrong, nor do I see any suggestion in the original post that serves to villify her character.
@167 Amphiox
In the OP at least, he tells us nothing about the woman and makes no comments about her.
@procrastinatorordinaire
Are you kidding me? Did you even read what he posted? Things like this “she strangled my attempt in the fucking crib before it was even ready” or “women CONSTANTLY SHIT DOWN MY THROAT!”
These are not neutral comments. He very specifically and explicitly criticized her for not making herself available to be approached and connected this with his perception of being generally mistreated by women.
The consequences of treating womankind as a monolith, instead of as individual people?
Zee Low Brown, that is a great story, and a great success. And it sounds like your commute is now the happening place to be. Go you!
I saw a good comic once about how the friend zone is a wonderful rainbow-filled place to live in, because it’s full of friends! And who doesn’t need or want friends? But I can’t find it now, because any internet search for it is swamped out by the “ew friend zone” posts.
The really sad part is how many of those search results are “friend zone rage comics”. Because, as the OP above shows, a woman wanting to have a man as a friend isn’t just insulting, it’s of course something that should cause actual rage.
@147 Zee
YES. So much YES.
I hate it when people act as if enjoying socal interactions with people is a tragedy if it doesn’t involve sex.
Men who think a sexless type of relationship with a woman is a waste of time are missing out….on being human if you ask me.
I understand there is an element of frustration when you are attracted to someone and the interaction turns in a direction that excludes the possiblity of it becoming romantic as you might have liked it to be, but the thing to do is realise that oh, well, the requisite of both of you wanting the same hasn’t been met and it is nobody’s fault, it just is. Now, why not make the most of enjoyable company?
And also the weird dichotomy that’s at work – I want to have sex with you and a relationship and maybe marry you, but of course I don’t like you enough to want to spend any time with you and enjoy being together! It’s really only about the sex. It’s about thinking that people who are romantically involved with each other have that as their primary point of interaction, not that they have anything else in common that could make being together enjoyable.
@carlie,
that’s not only a dichotomy, that’s just sad. Do people (other men) really aim to keep their relationships this empty?
Alex – my pet hypothesis is that this is at the root of a lot of bad marriages – differences get billed as “that’s just because men and women are different, you’re not supposed to have things in common”, so people end up with a mismatch because they think that’s the natural and only way for it to be.
Exactly, it’s quite literally “i like you enough to fuck you but not to be your friend”. It seems to be astonishingly common and i completely fail to get it. I’ve been told that it is possible to want to fuck someone even though you don’t like their personality, that it is just about physical attraction and nothing more…but i’ve never experienced it and find it extremely incongruous….how can you want to fuck someone if you don’t actually like them? As others have pointed out i believe the reason is that people are not seen as people but rather as something that is just more attractive and warmer than a hole in the wall.
@carlie,azhael
“Exactly, it’s quite literally “i like you enough to fuck you but not to be your friend””
What’s more, the possibility that man might connect with woman enough to be a friend is not even considered! Probably because women, with their fluffy brains, cannot possibly share interests with men.
And just watch the reaction when one of those pink fluffy brains turns out to know the subject better or be quicker on the draw that Mr Bloke.
We had one flounce away (and screaming abuse with it) on a nearby thread just yesterday!
Alex @ #171
There goes the theory that German has a word for everything.
‘Gal’ became old-fashioned and no word has taken its place. That may be part of the reason why women in some circles will playfully refer to their friends bitches, hoes, or sluts. ‘Guys’ is used sometimes for a group including women, but not everyone likes having their gender erased.
@173 LykeX
Yes, I read that and I see it as the frustrated whining of an immature man who has suffered rejection. I don’t see how it maligns the character of a particular woman or indeed women in general.
So anonymous person A complains bitterly that anonymous person B was not available to be approached. I am struggling to see how person B comes out of this in a bad light. The only person blamed “specifically and explicitly” in the OP is Steve Jobs.
I have come around to the idea that he feels entitled. He needs to grow up and stop blaming others for his own failings.
procrastinatorordinaire
Do you do language?
Because you actually wrote that A complains about B but you don’t see how that makes B appear in a bad light.
When somebody. complains. about. their. behaviour.
You actually think that saying that somebody is “shitting down somebody else’s throat” does not make the first somebody appear bad?
Well, could of course be that you consider shitting down somebody’s throat to be perfectly acceptable behaviour. It might explain some things.
Oh, come on, procrastinatorordinaire!
He wasn’t even rejected. He did not communicate with her so that she could tell him to piss off. He could have signalled he’d like the earbuds out, he could have waited patiently within sight, he could have spoken – earbuds don’t block out sight, you know.
Instead he came up with a plan in which he got what he wanted and she had no agency. That’s what blow-up rubber dolls are for.
And now he is using abusive and violent language not about a woman who has harmed him, which would be bad enough, but about a woman to whom he has never spoken, who has never been made aware that he thinks she owes him something. Which she doesn’t, in case that bit’s too difficult to grasp.
Monitors, spam cleanup aisle cult-of-MacIntosh….*readies the hazmat crew*
Spam cleanup on isle 3… except all of these comments are spam. They don’t realize 4chan is an anonymous forum and they think everything posted there is truth.
Instead, let’s get morally offended, and all men are “pick up artists” and should be castrated! Social Justice! We’re so moral because we’re not Christians, we just act like they do when those Christian’s get upset!
BOO BOO SOMEONE HURT MY PRECIOUS FEE FEES ON THE INTERWEBS
Grow up. Someone said something anonymously on an anonymous site that bothers you. Er.. offends you. Er… causes you massive heartache so ultmately you decide you need to judge them completely.
Good fucking god, I bet half of you go on there, yet post here as penance. It must be power to be part of the echo chamber.
sparkles
Hypocritical, much?
(The italicized narrative kinda undermines your bolded histrionics)
There is no hypocrisy. The fact that everyone here acts as an echo chamber is completely laughable. If you dare disagree, you will be derided and told that you are a child, stupid, unintelligent, “lamb”, uneducated, etc. You must submit and obey to be a part of the fun “community” of commentators. Any slight mis-step and you are doomed.
Here? Ad hominem is the only way to go to prove your point; which is why it’s laughable that these people secretly feel that they are intelligent.
Show you understand ad hominem is more than just being insulted for being stupid. Otherwise, you are stupid….
Oh really?
“Women constantly shit down my throat” within the context of the rest of that OP does NOT count as making vile comments about a woman to you?
Yay. Yet another entitled poster complaining about being insulted and misusing the term “ad hominem.”
sparkles
Would you care to not be a coward and identify yourself by your previous nym?
sparkles @ 191
As is the composition of that sentence.
I’ll admit that some people are on a hair trigger. But that’s only due to Bayesian priors. When mistakes are made, the regulars will usually own up to them.
You mean you have to follow the customary rules of behavior within a civilized society in order to not become a pariah? Do tell…
An example of a “slight misstep” would be forthcoming if there were any weight behind your charge. But you’re full-tilt at thin air.
Your powers of observation are as polished as your mastery of the English tongue.
Now you know how certain people feel about their selves.
Your protest is all in vain, sparkles. You might as well go blow a wall and hope it falls for all the good you’ve done here.
I see a problem with what procrastinatorordinaire is saying. Procrastinatorordinaire is working under the assumption that she is anonymous.
I’d wager dollars for donuts that if the guy in question has come up with some of those phrases and posted them on 4chan, that he’s also been ranting to some of his non-anonymous associates as well. I’d then wager that some of them know who the girl is that he is talking about.
This all reminds me very much about something that I _think_ PZ posted about some months ago, regarding a “philosophy” lecturer presenting a scenario regarding rape where there was no way the person raped would know about the rape. The “conundrum” (LOL) being if the victim had no way of knowing it happened, how could it be a bad thing?
The answer to this “conundrum” is (not that it was raised at the time) that the perps had no-way of knowing for sure that the victim would have no negative outcome. The victim may get pregnant, acquire an STD, etc, so ignorance of the victim is not sufficient to absolve the moral responsibility of the perpetrators.
It’s very similar here. This girl does not know that some guy has written all this stuff, but that doesn’t mean there are no tangible negatives she’ll experience because of it. Chances are there is someone else at that school/workplace/gym/whatever who is aware of it, someone who every time they see her wearing earphones thinks of her shitting down some guys throat.
And also, 4chan is a hive of irresponsible, immature, etc, etc, people who are often very impressionable. Stuff like this feeds itself and grows.
Still, procrastinatorordinaire has a point. This is probably just some dumb kid.
@193 Amphiox
In the context of the OP, I take it to mean “Boo hoo, women are always rejecting me”, so no, I don’t see how it is a vile comment about a woman or even women in general.
I think we can firmly conclude at this point that the problem is entirely on your side.
@lindsay
Well, you see, you learn something new every day, a phenomenon Germans call “Alltagslernerfahrung” (*). We call the occasional lack of gender-specific words “Geschlechtsbezeichnungsmangelproblem” (*)
(*) no we don’t. But we actually might. There is no greater joy than building composites, or, as Germans call it, “Wortkombinationsfreude”
Alex
There’s quite a lot of these, but I would say that the thing isn’t so much the lack of equivalents, but that the female equivalent is usually something nasty. Kerl, Macker, Typ all have strong connotations of strength, masculinity, prowess. Even Macker, which is generally derogatory.
Now think of the many words used for women in similar situations. Tall, physically strong woman? Not positive. Domineering woman in a relationship? Extremely nasty (also usually combined with insulting him. There are many expressions to explain that a man is the submissive part in a relationship and they all ridicule him while there’s no such equivalent on the female side.)
Also one thing that hasn’t been mentioned in this whole discussion about words relating to genitals:
To have balls/Eier/cojones: To have testicles is the pinnacle of humankind.
@Giliell,
Absolutely, it’s disheartening when you think about it, how in the end it comes down to a general lack of positive monickers or alternative designations for women. In that respect the language is at least as bad as english, no? Names for women either describe how f-able they are (Schnitte, Schnecke…), or superficial and stupid (Tussi). I’m in favor of reclaiming Weib as a positive designation with the connotation of strength and dignity. My wife is not yet convinced.
Alex
My particular variety has the word “Flintenweib” which is, yeah: A woman (more often used for a girl) who is outgoing, tough, active. With the combined issues of praising the more masculine traits while at the same time indicating that she is not quite a real woman and does not behave correctly.
@Giliell
I like it! Alas my impression is that it doesn’t serve as a substitute for woman, because it is a very specific description of a particular type of person. We’re still missing something like Kerl, which can be used on a woman rather generically and is not typecasting too strongly.
Is “Kerlin” too obvious a possibility, or does it carry a meaning I am unaware of?
Caitie
Kerlin exists, sort of, in fairy tales and such (more like a giantess) but not in everyday language. Kerl is so strongly gendered masculine that “Kerlin” sounds like “Männin” to me.
Wow. That was genuinely a bit scary in it’s whiny, woman-hating bitterness. The whole [I know it can be a bit nervewracking approaching a woman, but seriously?] all seems very teenage and low self-esteemy. Not to mention taking things personally when they blatantly aren’t. Women listening to music in public is them “shitting down your throat”? Seriously?
And what the fuck is a “cold approach”? Or even a “cold apporach”?
@Thumper
“And what the fuck is a “cold approach”? Or even a “cold apporach”?”
I assumed it means that she doesn’t know him personally yet (as opposed to making advances to acquaintances or friends) , and he basically has to start by introducing himself.
@ Alex
That would seem to make sense… but is that not the normal way to meet a woman? Why does that require a new name? What’s wrong with”chatting a woman up”? Or even just “introducing myself”?
@Thumper
Yeah, of course! I think the above commenters are correct in that the guy is steeped in PUA culture, where this is standard lingo (just google it!).
Approaching a woman here is more akin to a military operation. The language reflects that, compare for example the recruiting of assets for intelligence operations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clandestine_HUMINT_asset_recruiting#Development
@ Thumper
The substitution “PUA” for the more traditional word “asshole” is also a bit uncalled for and clearly unnecessary…
…Fascinating.
Quite the opposite: we don’t even use Kerl or Typ, Macker is limited to some western part of Germany, and the dialects in Austria don’t use -chen at all (Mädel and Mädchen come from different dialects).
…Wow. I’ve bookmarked and downloaded it – it illustrates a really important part of science theory!
*lightbulb moment*
It’s funny because it’s true! :-)
*blink* Snail? You call sexy women snails?
…Hence the term Piefkonesien, I guess: we’re separated so wide by a common language that Germany might as well be in Indonesia.
Schnitte? Like a slice of roulade?
Interesting idea, but I don’t think that’s gonna work; the meaning “woman I don’t like” is deeply entrenched.
I had no idea.
…No?
@David M
Huh, Austrian be a funny language indeed. Well, one man’s Dampfnudel is the other man’s Germknödel, I suppose :-P
Concerning Schnitte and Schnecke, I have never looked into the genesis of these words, but I would guess that both are derived from the culinary context, being words for pastries (Schnitte can be a piece of cream pie) – but this is only my guess.
@Martin Wagner @14:
Calling him a loser is definitely insulting for those of us with crippling shyness which precludes from asking for needed information, let alone introducing oneself to a stranger to try to know him/her better.
But, on the other hand, I would never act like one of these fedora-clad characters. I had enough courage once to say “hi” to a girl I used to see in the subway and who I liked, and the sheer terror I saw in her eyes when I approached her convinced me that I should never try to do that again. So I don’t.
When you don’t have any success trying to pick up people you like, you have to stop trying. Is less painful to all people involved.