Oh, swoon. She’s writing about embryology and abortion. The pro-blastocyst/anti-autonomous-adult people ought to read it.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
Oh, swoon. She’s writing about embryology and abortion. The pro-blastocyst/anti-autonomous-adult people ought to read it.
But … but … but …
EVERY SPERM IS SACRED!!!!eleventyone.
That’s some righteous peevage, that is!!
I love the illustrations that point out how hard it is to tell the difference between a bat embryo, or a cat, or a human. Well played!
That was fucking genius. But thanks for wrecking my productivity for the day, since I now feel compelled to read everything she’s ever written!
Aww! Thanks for the signal boost PZ…I think. The Forced Birth Brigades have already arrived. And to think I was planning to get stuff done today. It will all have to wait because I have an intractable case of SIWOMB Syndrome: SOMEONE IS WRONG ON MY BLOG.
Thanks for your kind words, Horde. I iz blushin.
“SIWOMB” is… a peculiarly appropriate acronym, given the topic.
Aaaand can any discussion of abortion take place, ever, without dealing with the concern of utmost importance, i.e., that men “should not have to pay for the upbringing of a child that a woman has decided to have against his wishes”? OF COURSE NOT.
Excellent arguments, irisvanderpluym. Sorry the dood in question clearly doesn’t get it. Still.
Your regulars appear to be doing a good job of telling “biologosfan” to STFU.
Excellent, Iris!
Irisvanderpluym:
I just commented on that over at your place. Drives me bats, that.
I feel that if the people are in a relationship that, yes, the man should be free to say, “I want to have this child,” or, “I don’t want this child.” That way he can expose the good/bad person he is. However, the final decision is and should be the woman’s. It’s her body, of course. If the man doesn’t want to support a child, he should not have sex. Full stop. Or else get his tubes tied. I really don’t see where his financial situation comes in. He helped make the baby, if the law says he needs to support the child, he does.
Are you fucking kidding me? If a man does´t want children he is bad?
And about the vasectomy, what if the issues is not that the man doesn´t want children but that the pregnancy happens at entirely the wrong time in the man´s life? Should men decide wether they want children or not the very day they turn 18 and if not, inmeditely get a vasectomy?
Anyway, Iris’ post was a great read!
azhael:
No. Women don’t have a choice about taking responsibility, and they have to think about it, FFS. You saying that the poor, pwecious men just can’t cope with even thinking about the possibility of having sprogs, and whether or not that’s something they want?
Jesus fucking Christ Fucking A Duck, anytime you bring up men taking responsibility, the whinging is overwhelming.
These d00ds are all dedicated to making sure that this new person they are *equally responsible* for creating is born into a world with a decent cradle-to-grave social safety net. That way—although we can debate whether they at least have the moral duty to contribute financially to the wellbeing of their own offspring—at least we can all rest assured that their children will not suffer terribly for their shitweaselry.
They are all dedicated to making that world a reality, right?
I never said if a man doesn’t want children he is bad. If he wants children and she doesn’t, that can be bad, and vice-versa. I had a pregnancy scare with an ex, and I was completely ready to stand up and do what was right for the child. The fact that I didn’t have a way to support it 100% didn’t change that. You don’t have sex if you aren’t ready for the consequences. Act like a woman for once! (I know this is gendered, but like Inaji said @12, women think about it a lot)
@irisvanderpluym 13:
Every man and every woman who cares about any life should be dedicated to that world. Sadly, not enough are, even though that is the spoken mission of almost every place of worship I know of. It’s pure humanism, how can we be human without it?
Inaji, the “are you fucking kidding me” was directly in reference to the “If a man does´t want children he is bad” bit….
I said nothing about men not being able to cope with a decission about wether they want offspring or not. You missunderstood my post and chose to use it for your own commentary.
Methuseus, how is this:
“the man should be free to say, “I want to have this child,” or, “I don’t want this child.” That way he can expose the good/bad person he is”
not saying that a man who says i don´t want this child is a bad person? If a woman chooses to have sex, gets pregnant, doesn´t want the child and aborts the pregnancy, you wouldn´t say she was a bad person (neither would i), but apparently, if a man does the same and expresses his opinion, he is bad, bad, bad. How dare he say he doesn´t want that child? He had sex! That´s a type of argument that the blastocist worshippers use.
azhael:
Your comment failed to convey your full intent (I read it the same way Inaji did). It might behoove you to craft your responses with more care in the future to avoid any misunderstanding.
(oops, the bolded portion above is my doing)
Yes, their complete panic at the thought of not being able to control women is obvious.
Their utter contempt for actual children, even their own, is noted.
What you never see is the argument of “men should have to pay 50% of the abortion cost” or “if both want the child then men should have to pay women for the troubles of pregnancy, pay half their medical bills AND pay women some compensation for the pains of childbirth”
Nonono, at that point he washes his hands off the consequences again. Because hey, it’s not his fault he’s a guy and can’t become pregnant, right? But when women decide for themselves what is happening to their bodies then suddenly the guys want some extra special rights because they can’t get pregnant and have an abortion.
azhael @ 16:
Then take a few fucking seconds to type out who you are replying to, and quote what you’re responding to – take fucking responsibility for that, too. It won’t kill you.
It’s not whether he wants the child or not, as that decision isn’t his to make. And never should be. But a man is responsible for his actions, so if he willingly has sex and gets a woman pregnant, he should be responsible for the consequences. If it means paying child support for twenty years or so, so be it. No responsible adult would avoid such consequences. Only those adult by age who don’t understand the concept of personal responsibility and living with the consequences of their decisions would even try.
Well, i had thought that putting the two bits directly together as part of a single sentence separated from the rest of the text would have been enough, but if it lended tiself to being missundertood i apologise, i´m not a native speaker. I´m also a lazy fucker.
Inaji, i have no children i´m not supporting and i haven´t argued that men should not be responsible for supporting their wanted or unwanted offspring AT ALL, so fuck you too.
Nerd of Redhead, i understand your point and i agree. I however don’t think expressing the fact “i don’t want this child” makes an individual necessarily bad, which was my point and what annoyed me from methuseus comment. Wether the child is wanted or not, it’s that individual’s responsability, i agree, but for a man to say that a pregnancy has been accidental and unwanted does not make him a bad person. To run away from his responsabilities would, though….
@azhael 23 (and more)
What I meant, and I’m sorry for not spelling it out better, is that if the woman wants to keep the child, her boyfriend, or whatever, is bad for her if he tries to convince her to abort the pregnancy. Likewise, if the woman wants to abort the pregnancy and her boyfriend (let’s say) tries to convince her to keep it, he’s bad for her. If he agrees with what she wants to do, he’s good for her. I wasn’t trying to make it as black and white as you took it. I have been reprimanded by plenty of people for saying things in an ambiguous way.
Fucking excellent post, Irisvanderpluym. Bookmarking it for later linkage.
@methuseus 24
That is indeed significantly different from what i understood from your first post. I think we both failed a bit at english xD
As for your last post i agree that when the two individuals involved have differing views and desires, there is a conflict which can affect the woman most negatively (and given such a conflict, the woman has the final decission over her body. Period) but i don’t think that should necessarily prevent the man from expressing his views. I realise it has the potential of creating a serious conflict, but nevertheless it would be wrong to demand that the man remains silent lest his view conflict with the woman’s. It would also be wrong to say that because the man has expressed a view that is in direct opposition to the woman’s, therefore he is a bad person. He would be bad if he pressured or forced the woman, but not for just expressing his position on what is happening to them both. (for example if an unwanted pregnancy occurs and the woman wants to terminate it, the man could say “i would prefer if you didn’t, but the decission is yours to make and i will uphold my responsabilities whatever your decission is” or viceversa, would NOT make that man a bad person and would not constitute undue pressure).
C’mon, guys.
The majority of us have the power of speech. Those of us who don’t have other effective ways of communicating.
The time to think about, speak about and discover whether there is agreement in principle about pregnancy and/or abortion, birth control and vasectomies is BEFORE you have sex.
The only condition under which I would condone the personal ownership of firearms is the one where I could put a gun to the head of every man who thinks he “ought to get a say” and demand that he tell me in detail of the conversation he had with this woman before they first got into bed. It would be interesting, to say the least.
It depends on both HOW he expresses his position, and whether or not his position is one of taking responsibility for his actions. Expressing his position cannot in any way be coercive, or he is bad person.
Maureen Brian:
Yes, it would. The sheer amount of weaseling and whining most men do when it comes to taking responsibility for their own reproductive organs is gobsmacking. If tomorrow, it was announced that there was a highly effective contraceptive pill for men, I’m convinced it would be the same. There would be whining about having to take a pill every day. There would angsty wailing about possible side effects. Anything except taking responsibility, which, yes, includes *thinking* about these matters before you’re confronted with them.
I actually don’t have a problem with “paper abortions”, so long as they happen before sex.
I should append that my acceptance of “paper abortions” is also contingent on women having sufficient access to abortion.
Jacob Schmidt 30:
I’d have slightly less of a problem with “paper abortions” if the world into which the child is born is one with a comprehensive, kick-ass, cradle-to-grave social safety net. That way the child’s needs are well taken care of by a society that values hir, regardless of whether hir parents are assholes. You know, like people who “don’t have a problem with “paper abortions'” in the world we live in now.
Sorry, I’ve been unclear. I don’t have a problem with “paper abortions” in and of themselves. I don’t think introducing “paper abortions” to the current legal framework is remotely sufficient. I think it takes a major overhaul, not least of which includes consistent access to medical abortions and social support for children regardless of the decisions of the parents.
Jacob:
Which they do not, if we are speaking of the U.S. See this very brief breakdown of links at Almost Diamonds. What has happened is that while abortion is technically legal here, for a great many women, it has been rendered as good as illegal.
I’ve been talking with a friend about this, and about my specific situation when I was pregnant 39 years ago. If that occurred in the current climate, I would be in a very bad way. ND passed the heartbeat law, which means the cutoff for obtaining a termination is six weeks. Six weeks. I didn’t get confirmation of my pregnancy until 8 weeks, as my first two tests came up negative. (I’m one of those women who continues to get a period.) So, I’d have to a) have to have considerable more money, b) travel. I’d not only have to take much time off, I’d have to get to a state which had an operating clinic, be able to schedule for the few days a month said clinic would have a doctor available, and make allowances for the 3 day mandatory wait and mandatory counseling. Being in ND, I’d have to travel quite a ways to get to a state which has more than one clinic and doesn’t have the full amount of restrictions placed on most. Now, by the time all that is accomplished, chances are very good I’d be over the cutoff at that point, especially if I had to make time to try and get all the monies together.
People make a serious mistake when they think just because abortion is legal, it is accessible. It isn’t.
Child support is just not an argument against abortion, full stop. If you want no part of supporting a child, make sure you’re clear about that fact with your potential partner BEFORE the sex happens. It reminds me of the dudebros who whine about what a downer the entire concept of consent is. If communicating with your partner is that godsdamned onerous, buy a fleshlight and some lube and leave other human beings out of your sex life. Urgh.
That’s fucking terrifying.
Jacob:
Yeah, it is. A whole lot of women don’t have the slightest idea they’re pregnant at that point.
Marcus Ranum #2:
Now if only one could choose. I’d totally take birthing a kitten over a human, and not just because of the size.
Inaji #29:
But but but you’re suggesting they DON’T put the mighty peen in where they want, when they want, how they want! Sad boners! Misandry!
More seriously, yes, totally agree about the idea of the Pill for men. I can’t imagine trusting many men to take the damned thing every day, or to tell the truth if they hadn’t. I’d still be using my own contraception.
Re the “paper abortion” idea – the term raises my hackles because I’ve only seen it spouted by MRAs, as reported on Manboobz, and it’s all about abandonment and hurting women for them.
Agreed. That is definitely ideal. However, i was thinking about situations like one night stands where there is very little chance that such a conversation will occur but an accidental, unplanned pregnancy might.
100% agreed.
@39 azhael
And why is there very little chance that such a conversation will occur? You people act like choosing not to have sex isn’t an option….like it’s some terrible injustice to be asked to pass up an opportunity to get your dick wet in the interest of not bringing a child into the world that you have no intention of supporting. It still comes back to responsibility. If you’re 100% not up for any kind of child support, you need to either communicate that fact to your partner in advance so they can make an informed choice about whether they want to risk sex with you or you need to not initiate sex. You don’t get to keep that little tidbit to yourself and then still complain about being asked to support the child you helped create. You can’t both be pro-choice and argue for the ability to effectively coerce someone to have an abortion by refusing to pay child support.
Still not making sense. Why shouldn’t it occur? It is part of gaining crystal clear consent for sex. Unless you view women as something other than human beings.
(emphasis mine) QFF’nT.
azhael: If anything, casual one-night stands NEED that conversation right beforehand, because when else are you going to have it? Right *afterward*? The next morning? The next time you happen to cross paths over lunch? Or would you rather just avoid any potentially uncomfortable boner-wilting topics (topics, plural – what about enthusiastic consent, or STDs?) and jump right into sex-without-thinking, like anti-abortion folks are always blaming women, specifically, and not men, for?
So you think it’s icky to talk about child support and/or abortion in a one-night stand situation because your genitals are too loud? Easy options:
– Don’t have sex. You’ll survive.
– Don’t have PIV sex. Seriously! Sperm can go lots of places that aren’t anywhere near ovaries. You have hands, tongues, washcloths, and so does your partner. Have some imagination, sheesh.
– Put a condom on without making your partner ask first. Also combines well with option 2. Be a damn grown-up about it.
Because this annoyed me:
The odds of getting pregnant from a single sexual encounter (without regard to cycle) are about five percent.
If you really think talking about pregnancy before a one-night stand is LESS likely than an actual unplanned pregnancy from a one-night stand, shouldn’t that be a clue that someone’s priorities are seriously fucked up here?
I originally had a problem with this argument, and here, I think, is why:
I think you can see it’s dangerously fucking close.
However, pteryxx has somewhat solved the problem with this line:
I totally understand the wish not to have a mood-killing conversation directly before sex, but I always used to use a condom in my one-night-stand days (bar, admittedly, the two (I think) occasions where copious amounts of alcohol interfered with the cognitive faculties, and I fully and firmly admit that that was completely idiotic of both me and my partner, but mostly me; or the couple of occasions where a frank conversation found that the woman in question was using alternative birth control); and I fucking hate the things. I mean, hate the fucking things. Just keep a couple in your wallet.
Iris
I so much wish for a society in which the chances of children do not depend on their parents’ financial abilities or their willingness to be decent parents.
Let’s keep on working towards the revolution…
thumper
Don’t do that.
Don’t keep them in your wallet because that’s a pretty good way to make them break.
@Giliell
Well that appears to have been a serious gap in my sex education :-/ I’ve always kept them in my wallet. Not in the coin compartment, obviously, in one of the card slots or something.
It doesn’t matter so much for me any more, but for any other young males reading this (or just in case I end up single again): where are you supposed to keep them?
First off, i would apreciate it if people would stop assuming i´m something i´m not…particularly since i have NOT presented myself to be that way at all. I´m not having one night stands, i´m not saying conversations about child support/abortion are icky, etc, etc…I´m not a womanizing arsehole cruising for easy minge. Of course you don´t have to believe me, but you have no idea how much i´m NOT like that…¬¬ And being accused of it really fuckng stings. Don´t have sex, you´ll survive…no kidding, i thought i might die if i didn´t get my dick wet every 24 hours…what the fuck kind of idiot am i in your imagination? I´m also well aware about other sexual practices, thank you very much.
I´m in no way describing my personal attitudes or my personal choices, i´m trying to pressent a scenario that happens all the time to OTHER people. You know, examining reality outside of this particular closed circle.
I said that i think conversations about child support are unlikely to happen when people hook up and have one night stands (not that they shoudn´t happen, but that they are unlikely to). Sure, ideally they should happen, and rest assured i personally would have that conversation, which would be easy since i have no interest in casual sex and much prefer to invest time on the person i´d like to have a relationship with which makes having such conversations and many others before any sexual contact happens far easier (not that i usually need to discuss abortion or child support since i tend to prefer COCK). But a lot of people do like casual sex…it happens all the fucking time. And people don´t have those conversations before they hook up. So how do we deal with that situation. People have had sex already, without having had those conversations, they have used protection but it failed and an unwanted pregnancy has occurred. What then? And before i´m once again accused of defending that…i´m NOT saying that´s the way things should go, i´m saying it´s the way they very frequently go….It´s a fucking observation of a real phenomenon, not an endorsement.
Condom cases. Also business-card holders, mint tins, w’ev. Anything that keeps them from getting bent and flexed (when not in use, obviously). Also pick up fresh ones every few months – they have expiration dates printed on the wrappers.
See also, because lol:
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/1l24dr/guys_what_do_you_carry_your_condoms_in/
I ALSO am not saying that in such a scenario the man´s opinion trumps even remotely the woman´s autonomy. All i´m saying is that in such a situation the man should be free to have an opinion and express without being classified as a bad person if his happens to be in conflict with hers. Or maybe i just have a different concept of what saying someone is a “bad person” implies.
@47/49 azhael
First, this is not about you. Nobody said fuck all about your personal sexual proclivities.
Secondly:
You deal with the situation by being a damn grown-up and not whining about child support if your partner (to whom you denied the opportunity to make an informed choice about consenting to sex with you) decides not to abort.
*To sparer azhael another tantrum, that’s a general “you” not a specific one. *eyeroll*
@Seven
Really? Because you specifically used the word “you people” which definitely implies that i´m one of them.
You were most definitely assuming that i´m one of them arseholes.
@Seven
Really? Because you specifically used the words “you people” which definitely implies that i´m one of them.
Fuck….sorry….shitty connection.
@Ptyyrex / @Thumper: I’d heard that it was more a body heat issue – so keeping them in a card holder or tin is equally risky if you then keep that in your pocket. Granted this was from the freshman introduction in 1986, but looks to still be the case:
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/ppsworegon/myth-vs-reality-28950.htm
Also, Thumper, personal experience has shown me that, if one is a man and doesn’t want a kid, use a condom no matter what the woman is using.
@50 Seven
Yes, but we´re not talking about whining, or pressuring or cohercing…which we all agree would make the man an arsehole. The original point was that to simply voice your position makes you a bad person if it happens to be in conflict with the woman´s (i imagine at some point the woman might directly ask him even).
By the way, there are two people involved in that scenario, and the woman also denied the man the opportunity to make an informed choice. In the scenario pressented, they BOTH fucked up and failed to address the subject beforehand, which is definitely the most common scenario.
Thumper @ 44
No. It’s not. Think about it again, while recognizing the important biological differences involved in pregnancy.
Sperm producing person sprays sperm into the body of egg producing person. Sperm producing person whines about how xe should have a say in what egg producing person does. No, you should have thought about that before you went spraying your sperm. That’s the egg producing person’s body, not yours.
Egg producing person sprays sperm into xir body. Egg producing person doesn’t want to host an embryo that might result from it. This is egg producing person’s body, and so xe can make that decision.
When you do something that may cause a change to someone else’s body, you have to deal with the consequences of that and how they decide to deal with it. When you do something that may cause a change to your body, it’s your goddamn fucking decision.
You are the only one who thinks we don’t agree with that point, with the proviso HOW he expresses the opinion, and the proper responsibility he is willing to assume, is also part of the equation. Your point misses our points.
@57 Nerd
Fair enough. The lack of acknowledgement of the point and the “you peoples” i got instead threw me off.
Point taken now, though.
Okay, I should have put “RE azhael” and specified “you, person reading this”. That said:
Who’s “we”? “we” people who do have conversations about the importance of consent? How are “we” supposed to deal with those other people who have the conversation only when an unwanted pregnancy (generally, their partner’s) forces it on them?
you did read #6 above?
I suggest you, azhael, read up on reproductive coercion and give it some thought to inform your concerns about men not having a binding say in what women do with their bodies.
The fucking argument at biology that only works one way.
Because women are the ones to whose bodies pregnancies are happening and therefore men shouldn’t have a say in what happens to those bodies, they whine and want some extra special right to compensate for the fact that they’re not going to risk their health and lives in gestation.
You know, I can’t have an abortion because biology, therefore give me a bonus!
But there are of course no obligations that come with that.
No forced donation of kidneys or anything.
Derek Vandivere @54:
That PP link just says “excessive heat” but normal body heat shouldn’t be high enough to compromise condoms. Trojan FAQ:
Other FAQs say below 100 F and above 32 F (0 C) – so storing them in a freezer is a bad idea…
@Pteryxx – Oh, I saw this bit of it:
“Keep condoms at a moderate temperature; if it gets too hot or too cold, the structure of the latex could be compromised. This means that keeping them in a car or a wallet for a long period of time is not an effective way to store them. Make sure that the condom wrapper has an air pocket — if not the condom could have been exposed to air or the condom itself could be punctured.”
So, keep them in a tin in your backpack and you’re good. (that’s the ‘you’ as in ‘one,’ of course…).
Re reproductive coercion – speaking of conversations, my link above references this article:
http://www.thenation.com/article/when-teen-pregnancy-no-accident
That number again, is one in five: not among abused women as a group, just women who were sexually active and went to clinics.
Hey @Giliell, may I ask how you would apply the principle of bodily autonomy to other areas? Specifically, Jerry Coyne’s blog (ahem, website) had an article today in favor of requiring kids to get immunized. Assuming that parents can ethically act as a proxy for their kids, would it be acceptable to you to legally require immunizations? What about requiring them as a prerequisite for going to a public school?
@Pterryx – and you hear similar stories every few weeks on Savage Love (‘he said it must have just slipped off somehow!’). One in five is difficult to believe (not because I don’t believe the number, but because it’s depressing to think humanity sucks so much).
A few years ago, my ex told me that her friends were recommending that she get me drunk and seduce me to have another kid. I’m sure it’s just because C (the kid) is so awesome, but I was pretty disturbed that anyone would even think that up as a joke…
Someone getting pregnant isn’t contagious. Someone choosing to have an abortion isn’t contagious in a physical sense.
Someone who has no medical reason not to get immunized yet refuses to do so has a chance of becoming infected, and passing that infection on to others because a) vaccines aren’t 100% effective and b) not everyone can be vaccinated, since some have medical contraindications. Therefore if you are not willing to vaccinate to ensure that you are safe for people to be around, then yes, your movements should be at least somewhat restricted to reduce your chances of potentially infecting vulnerable people.
@Ariaflame: OK, so you’re saying in this case that one’s right not to have a vaccine injected in one’s body is trumped by public health concerns. Is that an accurate way to put it? (not trying some weasely Socratic method crap, just trying to make sure I understand your reasoning).
@azhael #47
God, I hate that word.
@Pteryxx #48
I did not know condom cases existed :) thanks for that. We recieved reasonably detailed sex ed in my English comp, but no information on the proper transportation of condoms.
@MM #56
I meant that it smacks of that old:
argument that the anti-choicers are so fond of. The idea that merely having sex means that you open yourself to the possibility of a baby and if one should happen, you have to have it and raise it and care for it etc. I despise that argument when it’s used against women, and I’m uncomfortable with it simply being turned around and used against men.
However, I’m also distinctly uncomfortable with the idea that the final decision rests with anyone other than the woman and totally condemn any attempt on the part of anyone to coerce said woman into making a decision, and I deem it immoral to refuse to support a child you helped bring into the world. In other words, I am a bit conflicted about this issue.
@61 Pteryxx
Society. I was wondering how to deal as a society with the fact that so often people engage in consensual sex without having addressed the issues discussed. But don´t worry i´m satisfied with what i´ve already read on how to achieve improvement in that area.
I have NOT expressed any concerns about men not having any binding say in what women do with their bodies, i have in fact expressed the exact opposite several times, but thank you for the link anyway.
Thumper @ 68
But it’s not the same argument. That’s the point. “Face up to your responsibility” directed toward a pregnant person is completely different from it being directed towards someone with a born, physically independent child. By directing it at a pregnant person and saying that they have a responsibility to carry the pregnancy to term, you’re denying them bodily autonomy. The responsibility to pay for a child’s care is not an infringement of bodily autonomy.
The sperm producing parent of an existing child shares responsibility for supporting that child. The egg producing parent also has responsibility. “Face up to your responsibility” goes for both of them.
Conflating the two very different arguments erases the issue of bodily autonomy entirely. Your wallet != my uterus.
@Pteryxx #63
What the… who the fuck does that!? That’s just rape.
@MM #70
Ah! You’re right, it’s not. Thank you.
To be clear, my objection was never monetary; more to do with the responsibility of actually raising a child and the demands that makes on your time and lifestyle. I never put money above bodily autonomy, what I did was conflate my (for argument’s sake) loss of time and freedom to do what I wish with your (for argument’s sake) loss of bodily autonomy. I still think it’s unfair to say that the guy has no say over his loss of time and freedom, but it was totally wrong of me to grant it the same importance as bodily autonomy. Mea culpa.
And besides, what’s to be done? Life isn’t fair all the time, and I see no alternative in that situation than to simply accept the loss of time and freedom. The alternative is to be immoral. *scratches head*
That wasn’t a very good explanation. To be clear:
I totally agree. But the mother has an opportunity to never get to this stage, because she has the say over whether or not to get an abortion, as is right and proper. But once the woman is pregnant, as can happen to even the most careful couple, the man has no recourse other than to make his position (“I don’t want a baby”) clear, and hope she is good enough to factor that in to her decision. I imagine the vast majority of women would do so. But if she doesn’t then you lose your right to do what you will with your own time, against your wishes. That hardly seems fair, but as I said, what’s to be done in such a situation? I will not countenance taking the final decision from the mother, nor will I countenance coercion. As I said, merely abandoning the child, leaving it with no contact from it’s father and the mother with no support (monetary or otherwise), seems immoral to me. Hence, *scratches head*. It seems the choice is to accept an injustice against yourself in order to avoid a far larger injustice against one or both of two other people. Which isn’t much of a choice, when it’s phrased like that.
Anyway, home time, so I’ll take my incoherent exercise in thinking out loud away with me, and hope my thoughts are better ordered tomorrow.
The change pocket in a pair of jeans seems to work for one. (nice to finally find a purpose for it, too)
Thumper:
If you don’t want a child, get a godsdamn vasectomy. If you decide you do want a child, they are reversible, and you back up with a deposit at a sperm bank. Voila, no unwanted baby! No pregnancy risk! Man takes fucking responsibility for a fucking change!
@75 Inaji
If you don’t want a child, get a godsdamn vasectomy. If you decide you do want a child, they are reversible, and you back up with a deposit at a sperm bank. Voila, no unwanted baby! No pregnancy risk! Man takes fucking responsibility for a fucking change!
Because vasectomies have never, ever, ever failed…
Thumper: while seconding ‘hey, vasectomies!’ have a look at some of the assumptions in your statement.
Again, if both people really are the most careful, taking multiple precautions with full transparency to each other, even for a hypothetical one-night stand, then how does it make sense that the man in this scenario has neglected to make his position clear by that point? Was the woman just not “good enough” to pay attention, or to take him seriously? Or did it just slip his mind to mention it because that would’ve ruined the mood, even while they were taking those multiple precautions? Was it supposed to be the woman’s responsibility to ask? She’s taking precautions too; why assume that if all those precautions fail, she’s going to suddenly change her mind and decide she’s going to bear and keep a baby from a one-night stand? (Though with the current state of abortion access in the US, she might not have a choice about bearing an unwanted kid. Personally I’m not sure it’s worth the risk to have PIV sex at all these days.)
Within a relationship, at least a healthy relationship (as I would hope is implied by “most careful”), it makes even less sense that a couple at risk of pregnancy (regardless of gender) would not be aware of each others’ opinions regarding what to do if their methods of contraception fail. They may not have thought it through or done the research, but if they’re being careful then by definition they damn well should be on the same page.
Also, you need to consider the version you didn’t state.
If the pregnant person does NOT want a baby, and the other partner does? How fair is it to ask a woman to be good enough to take THAT into consideration? You just said (and I agree with you) that taking a condom off halfway through, against the partner’s wishes, is rape. I submit that bearing a baby is way more weighty a decision than keeping a condom on.
azhael:
If you’re a sexually active man who doesn’t want children and wants to take responsibility for himself, a vasectomy is a very reliable way to ensure you have no children. That it isn’t 100% assured is not an argument against men having the procedure.
Which is why a man should use a condom minimum after a vasectomy until his ejaculate is sperm free. Taking responsibility means checking up on your fail-safes, making sure they work properly.
azhael:
Make sure and compare the failure rate of vasectomies (less than 1%) to the one-in-five reproductive coercion stat I cited above, there’s a good netizen.
Inaji @ 75
Or–as has been mentioned before–a penis doesn’t even have to go inside a vagina! Lots of people do it, for their entire lives. Genitals can be stroked with thighs, anuses, mouths, hands, breasts, armpits, feet, and toys.
One particular act with one particular set of participants has a risk of pregnancy. Yes, condoms and hormonal contraceptives and vasectomies can all fail. And what is the cost to the penis haver? Possibly being a parent, if the pregnancy is taken to term. What is the cost to the uterus haver? Having their body taken over to support a growing embryo, facing many risks to physical health and psychological well-being, and possibly dying.
So if the teensy little risk of having to pay child support is just too scary for the penis haver, then stick your penis somewhere else. There are lots of other orifices and plenty of other partners who cannot get pregnant or would abort. Better make sure they have access to that option, though!
@78 Tony
Of course not, but it is an argument against Inaji´s assertion that once you get a vasectomy, there´s no risk of pregnancy——->”Voila, no unwanted baby! No pregnancy risk! Man takes fucking responsibility for a fucking change!”
azhael, you did read #6 above?
and you’re still going on about vasectomy failure rates even after you said you support women, you’re totally not like that?
I think you’re the kind who goes ‘but what about the menz?’ when the topic is women and other folks with uteri being systematically denied autonomy, humanity, and the right to control their own bodies.
Derek Vandivere.
Parents are stewards and guardians. they are granted the right to make medical decisions for their children within limits. * There are very good and compelling arguments to demand immunization for kids so I don’t see any problem with putting that decision outside of parental scope the same way Jehova’s Witnesses are not allowed to deny their children blood transfusions.
The right to bodily autonomy for children means that ther guardians need to make sure that their bodies are kept in good condition
*And if you ask me, those limits are too damn broad. Treating a kid with scarlet fever with nothing but homeopathy, aka not at all is nothing but child abuse.
Still going on? I´ve only just brought up vasectomy failure because Inaji made an assertion that demanded it.
My original post was to critisize a sentence that i found seriously problematic (and apparently, so did others although for some reason noone felt it worthy of comment), it had fuck all to do with “what about the menz”. But you go ahead and continue to pretend i´m the strawman construct that you are obviously dying to battle with even though i have repeated several times that i am ALL for a woman´s bodily autonomy.
Your actions and your words are at odds with each other. Your piles of straw speak for themselves. I don’t really believe anything you say, as there is no consistency, other than you appear to want to allow men to weasel out of their obligations. Otherwise, you would shut up about all scenarios.
Shorter azhael: THERE IS NO CONNOTATION! ONLY DENOTATION!
azhael:
No imagination is required, we have your words. I think you’re the kind of idiot who will whinge endlessly while weaseling out of taking any responsibility for the actions you take with that noble penis and ballsack of yours. You keep going on and on and on, finding one nit after another to whine about why you couldn’t possibly take responsibility, oh no!
Can you have a discussion prior to sex, no matter how casual? No.
Can you make the decision to have yourself fixed, and arrange routine tests to make sure you’re all juice and no seeds? No.
Can you make the decision not to have PiV sex, and recreate in other ways which will ensure no pregnancy? No.
What can you do? Whine about women, because, as always, it has to be her responsibility alone, her fault if your perfect fucking about is interfered with in anyway. The bottom line here is that as long as you continue to mouth these idiocies, all you’re doing is proving you aren’t grown up enough to have sex with anyone other than yourself.
@86 Nerd
There is no consistency if instead of reading the content of my posts you assume that i´m yet another mysoginistic arsehole.
I have discussed scenarios that others have brought up or built on them when people have made assertions that i found problematic and because i´m trying to develop solid possitions on subjects that i´ve only recently started to consider in any depth. That requires exploring different avenues of thought.
Also, in this particular case, correcting a false asserion is not “exploring scenarios”.
I DO NOT want men to weasel out of their obligations (and fuck you for once again accusing me of such a thing) which you would know if you read my posts without your biased assumption, but fuck it, i´ll shut up and leave and go to some other thread to keep learning.
Congratulations to you all for having vanquished the guy you thought was saying something he wasn´t actually saying at all. I may have trouble expressing myself but some of you have trouble with reading comprehension.
I read what you said. I also read what you implied. I also know mental wanking when I see it at this blog. If you are exploring your issues, take them to the Thunderdome, and label what you are doing. Otherwise, you only come across as a devils advocate, or more accurately, a troll.
azhael:
Believe me, we can tell.
These conversations get had all the time, whenever abortion gets discussed. The same ones, because instead of having proper sex ed we’ve got commenters on the internet.
You did read #6 above?
And you still entered the discussion at #11 with this?
I hope by now you’ve figured out that if producing babies with one’s own sperm is so important to people, they’re going to need the full and willing cooperation of another, equally important person to do the hard and dangerous part of the job; and until that point they’re responsible for ensuring the safety of their sexual partners *from* those sperm. And if someone’s primary concern is a man’s right to expose other people to their sperm, even above the risk of child support, even above the risk of (heaven forfend) having conversations that might ruin the mood, then yes… these folks should seriously consider getting vasectomized.
Because apparently being told to get a damned vasectomy already is what it takes to make a lot of men even think about the concept of communicating honestly with a woman about pregnancy before having sex with her. Sheesh.
azhael, instead of sounding like an MRA sympathizer trolling, you could have simply asked about how to talk about birth control before sex. In which case, a link to Crystal Clear Consent would have been in the offing. Without the drama and hurt feelings on your part. But then, that would have been too easy….
You know, if this is sincerely what you hope to accomplish, it is usually best to JUST ASK instead of playing devil’s advocate and then crying crocodile tears and saying it was just practice when you are shown to be a pompous, uninformed ass.
It seems odd to me that you would leave out post #10:
Especially given this exchange between Nerd and azhael:
Or, for that matter, this exchange:
azhael agrees quite explicitly that communication should happen before sex. Xe is somewhat incredulous at the idea that people will, and for the time being, I think xe has a point: people don’t engage in that sort of communication. They should, they absolutely should, but they don’t.
@azhael
You entered this thread arguing against something nobody said (that a man shouldn’t even express an opinion re: whether he wants a child if his partner falls pregnant) and continued to argue against that non-existent position even after multiple people clarified it. That behavior is not consistent with with “trying to develop solid positions.” It is, however, perfectly consistent with the usual pompous, reactionary assholes we tend to get in these kinds of threads.
If you really want to develop your position, shut up and read instead of trying to dive into the depths of a discussion on a topic that you admit you’ve only recently begun to consider.
@Pteryxx #77
I was under the impression we were working to the scenario of a one night stand. A couple obviously would have talked about it.
But you’re right. I mean, I was working to the assumption that it was an accident, i.e. too drunk/lustful and forgot the condom, the condom split, other birth control failed, etc., but if it’s an accident then the implication is they didn’t want a baby. So while the possibility exists that, as you said, an abortion is simply unavailable or the woman in question simply doesn’t want an abortion (it was more the second scenario I was working to; I have met people who say they would not abort even the product of a one night stand), it’s unlikely.
I’m basically playing the stupid “what if” hyothetical game the anti-choicers do, without even realising it. Ugh. Sorry.
Thanks for helping me clarify my thoughts on this subject (ditto to MM and Inaji). It’s not a scenario I’ve ever considered before. Hope it wasn’t too infuriating for you.
For the “what about the menz’ wallets?” advocates – you want men to have no legally required financial responsibility for their own children? Fine, you can have that. But are you ok with the other legal ramifications of that position? If men can’t be held responsible for their own children, that means they can’t be held responsible for their own children. Parental rights for fathers? Nope. Visitation rights? Nope. Being able to be the guardian who signs a school permission form? Nope. Weighing in on the decisions about your child’s health care, where they go to school, etc? Nope. All decisions are made by the mom. Any father who would want rights regarding their children would have to individually argue up from the legal starting point that they have zero rights at base. Is that what you really want?
azhael @ various:
Thank you.
Thank you for bringing up that point that no-one has ever ever ever even once ever ever boy howdy never happened ever ever ever totally original ever even so much as thought of before ever made prior to this thread who’s awesome you’re awesome.
So, thanks.
(And if your response runs along the lines of “Well, am I expected to read every prior abortion thread on the site to see if it’s been brought up before?”, the answer is “That depends on just how informed an opinion on the discussion you want – your call.”)
carlie
I had an idea that ran along different lines:
Since society has a vested interest that men who would happily let their children starve even though they could support them don’t reproduce, men DO get to have a “paper abortion”. After sterilization.
OK, people keep using the term “paper abortion”, and I’m afraid I have no idea what it means. If anyone fancies providing a definition I’d be grateful.
Thumper
It’s an idea of dudes who think it’s soo unfaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiir that women can have abortions while they cannot control her behaviour the least that they want a compensation in form of a paper abortion. It means the dude signs a paper and has therefore zero obligations towards the born child anymore, because it’s all her doing. Somehow, magically, he did not play part in the creation of a now actual person, because she could have had an abortion and didn’t do it and therefore it’s all her fault.
You know, all the fun, zero risk or responsibility.
Giliell has the gist. Basically a surrender of any parental responsibility of the father. The assumption is that because women can have abortions (simplistic, given the various barriers to abortion women face) men should be able to have abortions too.
Jesus, wow. No. Aborting a baby before it’s born is veeeeery fucking different to abandoning a child once it is.
Thank you both for educating me.
thumper
But you gotta understand, the woman in that scenario didn’t behave like the guy wanted her to behave, therefore fuck the child.
My second cousin got his girlfirend pregnant when she was just 16 and they were both still in high-school. They talked about abortion but she decided that she couldn’t have one.
Man, he was not a happy camper about that.
But tell you what, this guy, who was basically still a kid himself behaved way more mature than all those fuckers who are whining about women not having abortions and things being out of their control. He understands that he got into the passenger seat contraception wise and has therefore no say in which way to take. He had to grow up quickly. And he did.