I thought I had seen some good dancing, until someone turned me on to the Nicholas Brothers
I don’t recall ever seeing anything as good as that.
lbsays
I remember seeing him dancing in “Pennies from Heaven” and being incredibly impressed. I think there are some bits from that movie in the mash-up. The Fat Boy Slim video posted above, “Weapon of Choice” is awesome, as well.
atheistblogsays
Wow Wow wow wow who’s the Huffington HuffPost fan here ? Looks like someone secretly following HuffingtonPost here, Wow Wow Wow
Any dance video has to be compared to this all time classic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1J3NLNWAPU
Singing begins at about 1:25 and the dancing begins about a minute later, but it is worth the wait.
I feel the urge to watch some movies with young Christopher Walken. How dashing!
robrosays
Not bad. Of course, like many actors, Walken started out dancing. From the Pppffff: “Walken initially trained as a dancer in music theatre at the Washington Dance Studio, before moving on to dramatic roles in theatre and then film.” Body control is great acting technique.
atheistblogsays
@aisle 6 itchy
reality imbeciles reality., why do you so much in love with huffpost anyway ?
Another one of those new age liberal ? Bollocks.
Hey, the man can move. I may be just a tiny bit jealous, here, as all I’ve ever managed is a drunken hippie-sway thing that looks even goofier than it sounds.
(Also, never attempt the Time Warp in a wheelchair. It just does not work.)
chigau (違う)says
Serious attaboys to the artist who made that video.
editing Master!!!
oh and that Walken guy.
—
atheistblog
watch your step
Ragutissays
Did he not dance in that Ben Stiller/Jack Black movie? Crap. Next time I run across that at 3am on USA or somewhere I’m going to feel compelled to watch in order to check.
rqsays
I first saw him dance in Weapon of Choice as linked to at #1. What ruined that video for me was the flying at the end, I wanted him to keep dancing.
But this compilation – *thumbs up* all the way, the man can move.
geraldosays
latsotsays
My friend’s dad looks almost exactly like Christopher Walken. This is just about as unnerving in reality as it sounds. I mentioned it the last time I saw her and it turns out she had never noticed. She is 43. Her dad looks almost exactly like Christopher Walken. Everyone she knows talks about the fact that her dad looks almost exactly like Christopher Walken ALL THE TIME but somehow the news never got back to her. I think we just assumed she knew.
Having coincidentally re-watched The Prophecy (or maybe not so coincidentally… chan chan chaaaaaan) last night, i can definitely say, yes, Walken is the man.
I might be putting words into Peter’s mouth, but here’s how I feel on that.
I’m (slightly) upset, from a “having to hear stuff I don’t like” point of view, by how pervasive rap has become, because I don’t enjoy the style myself, and it (to an extent) displaces other styles of music, in radio shows, etc that I can’t avoid listening to. This is purely a matter of personal taste regarding sounds which I find pleasing, and has nothing to do with the origin of the genre or the skin colour of those performing it.
Very good, but all I can think of are all the really, really creepy roles he’s played over the years. No one does “stark raving bonkers” quite like Walken.
Mmmmhhhmmmmmmmm. Yes, any given white person’s utter lack of exposure to the breadth and depth of the art form that is hip hop, and their subsequent distaste for the commercialized versions of it that make onto the radio has nothing whatsoever to do with the color of anyone’s skin. Sure.
methuseussays
@SallyStrange 29
I’m not the one that first mentioned it, but I personally do not like most rap or hip-hop. I’ve been exposed to plenty of it, and enjoy some of it. The artists I tend to like are not white, either. There’s also plenty of white people music I don’t enjoy either. The only music I actually hate is the type that has completely offensive lyrics. This includes some rap and hip-hop, but also some country, adult contemporary, and others. So, as for me, I do enjoy some rap and hip-hop, but not a whole lot. I do enjoy a lot of R&B and just plain blues as well, so the skin color of the artist isn’t really an issue for me there, either. As for anyone else, I cannot claim to understand their thought processes until they explain them. I know there are plenty who do have a problem with certain types of art based on skin color, too.
methuseussays
Oh, and for the record, I do like the song in the video, rap portion included.
My (entirely personal) like or dislike of any given style of music has sod all to do with the ethnic or geographical origins of that style of music. If I disliked every other genre/style of music of black origin, I agree that I might need to examine my reasons for that, given that it might indicate some other, non-music-related, underlying reason.
(Nor did I say that my only exposure was via commercialised radio shows. I said that I can’t avoid it because of those shows.)
It is possible to not enjoy an art-form without disliking, or casting any judgement on, the entire culture from which it sprang. Art is subjective. You like it, or you don’t.
chigau (違う)says
I like most hiphop.
I don’t like most rap.
The terms are not interchangeable.
I really hated disco.
At one company where I worked we would periodically have “talk like Christopher Walken day”.
We never had “dance like Christopher Walken day”.
Thomathy, Gay Where it Countssays
Sally Strange is right.
I’m biased towards k-pop rap styles, personally. And I have a deep nostalgia for any early 90’s hip-hop, because awesome.
Anyhow,
Daz @ #27
by how pervasive rap has become, because I don’t enjoy the style myself, and it (to an extent) displaces other styles of music, in radio shows, etc that I can’t avoid listening to.
It displaces styles of music in programming that you can’t avoid listening to?
1) Get off my lawn.
2) Change the channel. (Or, don’t pout about your choice to consume media despite its rap content.)
methuseus @ #30
The artists I tend to like are not white, either.
I have black friends too!
Seriously?
I do enjoy a lot of R&B and just plain blues as well, so the skin color of the artist isn’t really an issue for me there, either.
No, really, I have black friends too!
I can appreciate that people have different tastes in music. Wildly different. There should be no need to defend an aesthetic choice by falling back on obvious racism.
For instance, there’re a bunch of queer rappers who are gaining popularity and I can totally get behind some of them; they’re great artists. But one in particular has decided that importing the extreme sexism of some hetero rap into his lyrics (I don’t know yet if it’s meant to be subversive) really turns me off of his work. I like songs about sex; I like sex. Not so much songs that demonstrably objectify bottom-identified gay men. Boy-pussy? No, thanks. I don’t want that particular facet of the patriarchy and machismo attitude imported into my culture.
There is nothing wrong with rap or hip-hop, personal taste aside. Condemning an entire art form due to personal taste and transparently defending such narrow-mindedness and cultural insulation with obvious racism illustrates a disturbing lack of self-awareness and introspection.
Now, I can’t speak for everyone, but Wow! by Kylie Minogue. Because, I can’t think of the word ‘wow’ without connecting it to that song or, depending, to Fairy Tale. Use Google.
I cannot change the channel on a radio programme being played throughout an entire factory in which I work. I expressed slight annoyance; I did not say that this was a Huge Big Thing.
What did annoy me was that SallyStrange brought racism into this by implying that the dislike of one subset of MOBO being expressed was necessarily linked to people being “upset that American black folks [making] an art form.”
I also dislike both Scotch and Irish whiskey. Make of that what you will.
Wylannsays
I love Irish folk music.
Guess I’m a racist fuck too!
Walken is da man!
Thomathy, Gay Where it Countssays
I agree, it’s silly that you’re making absurdist comparisons to nationally branded alcohol.
If you must reply, I’ll be refreshing Thunderdome.
Thomathy, Gay Where it Countssays
(That should read ‘absurd’ and not ‘absurdist’. Making sense is sometimes important and that mistake is outstanding.)
Thumper: Token Breedersays
Damn my workplace and it’s shit internet, making every viceo ever unwatchably laggy.
Anyway, regardless of his dancing ability, Walken is epic.
Thumper: Token Breedersays
*video. Obviously.
consciousness razorsays
How the hell can you be “mortified by rap”? Whatever that means, I’m pretty sure it’s not just disliking it as music.
Thumper: Token Breedersays
I agree, it’s silly that you’re making absurdist comparisons to nationally branded alcohol.
Yes, that is silly. So, as consciousness razor points out, is claiming to be mortified by a genre of mucic (what does that even mean?). But so is assuming that dislike of an artform is motivated by the ethnicity of the artist.
Thumper: Token Breedersays
All hail Borkquote!
Thumper: Token Breedersays
Also Tpyos. *music. Christ, why can’t I type today?
methuseussays
@Thomathy 35
I have black friends too!
Thank you for totally missing what I was saying. I was trying to convey that people can dislike a genre of music and it not be for racist reasons. I in no way mean I’ve never made a racist comment without thinking, though I definitely try not to.
@Thumper 44
Yes, that is silly. So, as consciousness razor points out, is claiming to be mortified by a genre of mucic (what does that even mean?). But so is assuming that dislike of an artform is motivated by the ethnicity of the artist.
It appears you’re agreeing with me, and if so, thank you. If you don’t agree with me, you may just have made my point better than me.
otramesays
That was cool.
The main thing about Walken for me is that he scared the every loving FUCK out of me in Last Man Standing. I mean heart rate going up, dry-mouth scared–before anything violent happened.
As for rap music, this fat old white woman on average likes rap better than modern country. By quite a bit. Sure most of it is crap, but most of all popular music is crap. I especially like Lupe Fiasco.
I didn’t inject race into it. When you have a nice song and a cool video, and the song contains one (1) verse of rapping, and a person’s only response to the entire video, dancing, singing, editing, and rapping, is to announce that they are “mortified” by the mere existence of the art form of rhythmically speaking rhymed verses over a beat, race is sitting right there, staring you in the face. I don’t much care for country music, but its existence doesn’t “mortify” me, nor can I recall a time when I’ve felt compelled to announce my opinion about it the way Peter Morris did, in a conversation that really had nothing to do with country music. Hatred of country music isn’t a culturally-sanctioned dog whistle for racism the way ostentatiously announced hatred for rap/hip hop is. So, no. I didn’t inject race into anything. I noticed its existence. I’m not color-blind.
azhaelsays
So if someone really doesn’t like let’s say reggaeton or carnatic music are they ethnicisist? I know lot’s of people who find sitars unpleasant…doesn’t make them racist, though…
I dislike rap and hip hop, i find both genres annoying and totally unappealing, but that has fuck all to do with who makes the sounds, but with the sounds themselves. Then again i like mainly metal and 80’s pop xD
Thumper: Token Breedersays
@methuseus
We appear to be in general agreement on this subject, yes.
Specifically on the subject of music; modern fans, at least in my experience, tend to make a distinction between hip hop and rap. Although people tend to use the terms interchangeably, they do actually denote two different styles of music. They are similar and the difference is nebulously defined at best, but the difference seems to lie mostly in the lyrical content.
The way it was explained to me is that hip hop denotes an earlier style which arose in the 70’s and employed loops from funk and soul, and had lyrical content mostly dealing with politicised issues; black identity in the US and the problems facing the black community. The modern useage referrs to lyrical content dealing with these or similar issues. Hip hop became inextricably linked with african-american identity, and with the rise of african-american gangster sub culture in the 90’s the style was employed with new lyrical content reflecting the values of the sub-culture, mostly given over to boasting, misogyny, money, drugs and guns; with occasional nods to black oppression. This lyrical content is labelled rap. Obviously the genre exists today with both types of lyrical content present, and modern fans use the labels hip hop and rap to distinguish between the two.
How accurate this is I don’t know, but this is how it was explained to me at university by my housemate and his friend; two lads from South London both heavily into their rap/hip hop, and has been confirmed to be generally true by another friend also heavily into his UK hip hop. So I would say it has a grain of truth to it at least.
Anyway, now my long winded set-up is over: given this definition, I like some hip hop and will happily listen to most of it, but I don’t tend to like rap because I object to the majority of the lyrics. I also tend to like UK hip hop more than US artists; presumably because I find it more relateable. Generally speaking I find the genre dull, being much more into rock and indie, ska, blues and reggae (in order of preference); but that doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy any of it. I tend to like Mikill Pane for example; particularly his collaborations, notably “Little Lady” with Ed Sheeran and “Fairlytale” with The Teasers.
Thumper: Token Breedersays
@Sally Strange
When you have a nice song and a cool video, and the song contains one (1) verse of rapping, and a person’s only response to the entire video, dancing, singing, editing, and rapping, is to announce that they are “mortified” by the mere existence of the art form of rhythmically speaking rhymed verses over a beat…
I definitely agree that his response was a stupid one.
nichsays
I’d also say that it’s one thing to express a mere dislike of rap music, another to say that one is upset that its pervasiveness is displacing other music. Blacks can’t even win a Grammy for Best Rap Album, let alone displace entire fucking genres of white-dominated music. My hackles are similarly raised when NBA athletes are singled out as particularly thuggish. There’s a certain way that things that are intertwined with black culture get spoken of that sets off alarm bells. I’m going to take a wild guess and say that Daz and Peter are probably older, white and male.
@SallyStrange 40
The part I took exception to is that you equated Daz’s reaction @27 with Peter’s @25. Yes, Daz was being somewhat apologist, and Peter sounded possibly racist, but basically telling Daz he was being racist was unwarranted. I was put off by Peter @25, but agreed with Daz, I think.
@Thumper 51
The way I understand it (which definitely could be wrong) is that rap tends to be more spoken word style and hip-hop is more melodic, though both can have similar instrumental and lyrical content. There is still a quite large and nebulous overlap between the two by any definition I’ve heard. By your definition I’d agree that I prefer hip-hop to rap. Per your 54, I’m going to listen to that in a bit, but I have an errand to run.
Thumper: Token Breedersays
methuseus
I may have muddled the waters by trying to recount the condensed history lesson that came with the explanation, so to clarify: modern fans use the terms purely to denote different lyrical content. The two labels do not denote different styles or different instrumental content.
And definitely give it a listen, I love that tune :)
I didn’t tell Daz he was racist, dude. I noted that I was skeptical that any given white person’s ostentatiously announced dislike of rap has nothing to do with race issues in the USA.
Stop getting your hackles up, and maybe you too can have rational, interesting conversations about race. It’s fun once you get the hang of it!
Really? Please tell me how to read the obvious sarcasm in your #29 then.
I will apologise if I’m shown to be mistaken, but I can’t see any way to read that other than as an accusation of racism.
consciousness razorsays
I will apologise if I’m shown to be mistaken, but I can’t see any way to read that other than as an accusation of racism.
Odd how that works. I can’t see any way to read #27 other than “I don’t give a fuck what #25 said, whether it’s defensible or whether it even made sense; it’s time for me to whine.” Trying to put myself into your mindset, while somehow also being sensitive to not-terribly-subtle cues about racism, and it’s just not working.
Rich Woodssays
@WMDKitty #17:
(Also, never attempt the Time Warp in a wheelchair. It just does not work.)
It does if you have the help of two strong, able-bodied friends. Though they might have problems with their backs and shoulders the next morning.
consciousness razorsays
Also, don’t talk about music being “displaced,” unless it’s actually disappearing. It’s probably still being made. You can probably still listen to it. It probably isn’t going anywhere, given that we invented these things called “recordings” not long ago.
Odd how that works. I can’t see any way to read #27 other than “I don’t give a fuck what #25 said, whether it’s defensible or whether it even made sense; it’s time for me to whine.”
I did carefully note that I might be putting words into Peter’s mouth. On the other hand, I know many people who claim that rap music “isn’t music” on the grounds that it’s not sung, but spoken, and tend to use such hyperbole to express that sentiment, whilst not being racist. (Not my reason for dislike. I couldn’t tell you why I dislike most rap; I just do.)
If that blew some dog-whistles I’m unaware of, I apologise.
consciousness razorsays
On the other hand, I know many people who claim that rap music “isn’t music” on the grounds that it’s not sung, but spoken, and tend to use such hyperbole to express that sentiment, whilst not being racist.
And you don’t suppose that’s transparently covering up for racism, despite their claims?
Actual musicologists and music theorists can tell you what constitutes music, if you (or these “many people” you know) were actually interested in that question, and singing definitely isn’t among the criteria. Indeed, the lyrics don’t tend to be in natural spoken language anyway, so on top of the other absurdities, we’d have to believe rhythm isn’t one of the defining features of music. So how’s that supposed to be “grounded” in anything?
I didn’t say it made sense, either as an objection to it being “real music” or as a reason to dislike it. (Because obviously it doesn’t. And, after all, it’s possible to like it as a poetry form, even if you don’t think it should be called music.) I do know that many of those defenders of “real music” who I’ve met don’t seem to mind other music of black origin, which leads me to discount racism as a motive. Maybe I’m naïve on this subject.
consciousness razorsays
I didn’t say it made sense, either as an objection to it being “real music” or as a reason to dislike it.
Okay. Your claim was that they’re not racist. Not much I needed to do about an assertion. But now you support it like so:
I do know that many of those defenders of “real music” who I’ve met don’t seem to mind other music of black origin, which leads me to discount racism as a motive.
Have you ever encountered people who claim to have “black friends” or claim to know “good black people” or who “don’t seem to mind” some black people sometimes, yet also say and do racist things occasionally? I have. It’s not as if you must be a Nazi Klansman who’s 100% opposed to every conceivable thing about all black/brown people in order to say and do racist things occasionally. We’re talking about whether this particular action/belief/argument is likely to be racist (no matter what “motive” the person might supply you), and not talking about whether the person (as a whole) is what you deem to be a sufficiently racist person or not-racist person.
(Because obviously it doesn’t. And, after all, it’s possible to like it as a poetry form, even if you don’t think it should be called music.)
It is possible to be wrong, yes. Where’s that supposed to leave us?
chigau (違う)says
Boyoboy, that Christopher Walken can dance!
consciousness razorsays
(no matter what “motive” the person might supply you)
To make it even clearer: no matter what “motive” they supply, even to themselves. People are not infallible about their own motivations. They might honestly tell you what they honestly think is going on in their heads, but in fact that may not be what is happening their heads. We simply aren’t built to do that kind of self-reflection. It’s important to keep that in mind.
Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thoughtsays
Boyoboy, that Christopher Walken can dance!
Yeah, and seconding those who want to go watch his old movies now.
I do know that many of those defenders of “real music” who I’ve met don’t seem to mind other music of black origin, which leads me to discount racism as a motive.
In addition to what consciousness razor has pointed out in response to this, I would also say that to paint a person’s acceptance of, say, jazz or reggae, as opposed to their rejection of hip hop, as evidence of their lack of racism, is pretty ahistorical. Jazz especially had pretty much exactly the same reputation when it was the nation’s dominant form of popular music as hip hop does today–it was associated with criminality, drugs, violence, and people said it wasn’t “real music.” Ditto rock & roll. Plus, rap/hip hop is the only popular musical form that, despite the best efforts of the Grammy Academy, remains dominated by black people, in contrast to the paths taken by rock & roll and jazz music.
In other words, Daz, yes, claims that hip hop/rap doesn’t constitute “real music” and loud protestations of one’s dislike for the entire genre really are common racist dog whistles. My remark to you was not an accusation that you, Daz, are a racist (and thus, obviously, a Very Bad Man), but rather an observation that any given white American is likely to a.) have limited exposure to the best hip hop has to offer and b.) be influenced by implicit racial biases.
Have you ever encountered people who claim to have “black friends” or claim to know “good black people” or who “don’t seem to mind” some black people sometimes …
Yes, and usually they turn out, if examined, not to have those black friends they claim to have, or their definition of “good” turns out to be “not outspoken,” and/or “entertaining” (as in actors, singers, etc).
I’m talking of people who actually collect and listen to many other styles of MOBO. That constitutes a certain amount of physical evidence that the ethnic origin of music isn’t something which informs their tastes.
And I now realise I’ve made an assumption: Obviously, another objection to rap music is based on the “black gangster” stereotype. I made an assumption that Peter, reading and commenting on a liberal blog, was more likely to be using the “not real music” or similar reason, than to be using that stereotype.
cksays
I had to watch it twice to try and figure out what the complaint was about. Frankly, I still don’t see it. The rapping folds well into the music of this song and isn’t jarring in the least. I’ve seen some pop songs incorporate an obligatory 30 seconds of rapping into music where it simply didn’t work well, but I can’t say that’s the case here.
In other words, Daz, yes, claims that hip hop/rap doesn’t constitute “real music” and loud protestations of one’s dislike for the entire genre really are common racist dog whistles.
Okay, I didn’t realise it was that common. Also see the last paragraph of my previous. I apologise for mistaking your meaning earlier.
Come off it, guys. It’s okay if rap and/or hip-hop isn’t someone’s cup of tea, and it doesn’t make them (or me) racist to say so.
That’s not the claim. The claim is that watching an awesome video of Christopher Walken dancing to the music of Dee-Lite, which is mostly singing, and maybe 1/4 rapping, and your only takeaway is “the rapping ruined everything” and you feel compelled to announce this and nothing else, then it’s a distinct possibility that your animus towards the genre is grounded in more than musical aesthetic preferences.
It is Dee-Lite, right? Haven’t the time to look it up at the moment.
It’s okay if rap and/or hip-hop isn’t someone’s cup of tea, and it doesn’t make them (or me) racist to say so.
I haven’t said that.
But it depends on how you exactly say “it’s not my cup of tea,” I guess. Grant yourself a fake musicology degree first, then start excluding groups of people and their work from the music community and the very concept of music itself, then yeah, that starts to seem just a bit racist. Suspicious, at the very least. Closer to that than simply not being “someone’s cup of tea.”
I will say one thing, re: Peter. If he was just doing the grumbly old “it hasn’t got two guitars, a bass and a drum kit,” it would have been rather bloody spiffing if he’d come back and explained what he meant.
I’ll have to lob a grenade more often. I wrote my comment before going to bed and expected it to be ignored.
New day dawns…and weee. :-)
To be clear here – *rap* transcends racial, gender, age and cultural boundaries. It is everywhere. It is unavoidable. It is for the most part bad, often offensive verse, tunelessly set to a beat. Throw in predictable devil fingers and agro stares and repeat for thirty years. A bit like grafitti tags – all the originality of chimps throwing poo.
I really dont want to hear dubious philosophies shouted semi-rhythmically at me whenever I walk near a music store. It sits outside my personal definition of music. You are welcome to redefine music your way, but that is mine.
I am not racist, agist, sexist or any other ist. I also do not live in the USA, but whatever the USA produces tends to get around. Your country has produced great things (as a personal bias, I wish you would collectively value NASA more). But, returning to, and ending ‘on topic’: RAP is one of the worst cultural exports to escape your shores since the invention of Wall Street.
Have a nice day. :) You too Sally. I’ll keep off your lawn. Promise.
Oh and back to the topic. He does dance nicely, don’t he?
cksays
Peter Morris wrote:
It is for the most part bad, often offensive verse, tunelessly set to a beat.
Only insofar as 90% of everything is crap, making an equivalent proportion of rap and/or hip hop also trash.
It sits outside my personal definition of music. You are welcome to redefine music your way, but that is mine.
I’m not a fan of most hip hop and rap myself, but I don’t call it “not music”. I despise country and western music far more than anything else, and I wouldn’t define that as “not music” either.
I am not racist, agist, sexist or any other ist.
If you say so, it must be true! Would you let them use your washroom?
If you say so, it must be true! Would you let them use your washroom?
Well, let’s see.
On Wednesday evening I shook hands and briefly spoke with a personal hero of mine, Charles Bolden, four time pilot/commander astronaut, deliverer of the Hubble Space Telescope to orbit, current head of NASA, and last time I looked, all African American. Does he count?
*facepalm* I forget to let him use my toilet! Next time Charlie… sorry…
…and yes, that Christopher Walken is one cool dancin’ dude…
You know, people who have no personal animus towards black people are perfectly capable of repeating racist dog whistles… such as comparing people of color to chimps.
It doesn’t make you a bad person. It makes you an ordinary person who did racism for a minute. Or however long you choose to repeat those racist tropes.
In order to be successful at not perpetuating racism, it helps to be aware of one’s own implicit biases. People who announce that they simply are not “racist, sexist, etc.,” are usually wrong, because they’re in denial about implicit biases.
Hip hop is definitely music, and denying that hip hop is music is a thing that is usually done by racists. But whatever, Peter. If ignorance and denial suit you, then there isn’t much anyone else can do about it, is there?
Gosh Sally, I guess I needed to move the chimp reference to a different paragraph to avoid the magical magnetic link through things-I-don’t-relate-to-racism, to not make it racist.
All humans and chimps share an evolutionary link to an earlier apey-monkey-esque form. No present human colour is safe (The ‘u’ in the fourth word of the last sentence is a clue I am not of the US and don’t have quite the hair-trigger response to race issues as you seem to). I am happily as close to a chimp as any African American (or anyone else). Not my hangup. So:
My attitude to to rap has zero racist intent. If rap had hung around for a couple of years in the 1980’s and faded away I would have been ok with that. It was clever the first couple of times. But 30 plus years? Jesus Christ!cRap is a one trick pony and is so fucking repetitively tedious no matter how you look at it. But that is just me. :-) Your mileage may vary. ;-)
Full Disclosure: My own music of choice is all the music you would group together as ‘Classical Music’. I play trombone in an orchestra. It is a long way from rap. Having said that, the infamous PDQ Bach, last son of JS Bach, wrote the only piece of rap I have any time for. It is called ‘Classical Rap’ and is performed by full orchestra and Professor Peter Schickele of the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople. Now that’s a tune.
cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)says
SallyStrange:
In other words, Daz, yes, claims that hip hop/rap doesn’t constitute “real music” and loud protestations of one’s dislike for the entire genre really are common racist dog whistles. My remark to you was not an accusation that you, Daz, are a racist (and thus, obviously, a Very Bad Man), but rather an observation that any given white American is likely to a.) have limited exposure to the best hip hop has to offer and b.) be influenced by implicit racial biases.
It is my understanding that Daz is not, in fact, an American.
Peter Morris–You understand that intent and effect aren’t always in perfect alignment, right? Just stop saying that hip hop/rap isn’t music (you are, objectively speaking, wrong, and your personal definition of music is entirely irrelevant), and we’ll be cool.
Maybe if you just, you know, went around not liking it instead of grousing about how much you don’t like it, when it’s really not relevant to the conversation (also something racists do), then you could avoid these sorts of discussions entirely. Just a suggestion.
Johnny Pez–thanks for that. I really loved this song when it first came out. Haven’t listened to it in a while.
cm’s changeable moniker–I figured that was a possibility. I just can’t really speak to the exposure to hop hop that people in other countries get, especially given the growth of indigenous hip hop forms and adaptations throughout the world. I figure, if it doesn’t apply, it doesn’t apply. But in general, if you have minimal exposure to an art form, it’s not very cool to just exclude it from the whole category of art.
Incidentally, I think a little more explanation about the relationship between rap and hip hop is in order. As it was explained to me, rap is one of the elements of hip hop. Hip hop is the larger cultural movement. Among its other elements are graffiti (which can be quite creative and beautiful, contra Peter Morris’ ignorant assertion), breakdancing, and DJing. Ideally, a concern for social justice and black empowerment comes along with the whole package. Which is why a lot of hip hop heads will moan and complain about how hip hop is dead, and have been for at least 20 years (basically since the music industry realized that the hip hop aesthetic could be a money maker). It is true that rap has been incorporated into the commercialized dreck that gets a lot of radio play these days, but it’s not the rapping that makes it awful–the fact that it’s commercialized dreck makes it awful. Replacing rapped verses with sung verses would not exactly save, for instance, “Scream and Shout” by Will.I.Am and Britney Spears from being an annoying contrived over-synthesized piece of crap.
pheresays
Nice! I lurve Walken. Beautifully elegant in speaking, acting, and dancing. Although the bits from Communion scared me. Greys have always terrified me even though i don’t believe in them – and that first scene in Communion when Walken wakes up from a nightmare and he’s just staring at the dark corner of the room with that ghoulish visage only Walken can do, then he whispers “I see you.” and the grey peeks out from behind the dresser. Uggh!!!
We can be cool Sally. I repect your passion. I thought it likely spreading my view on rap would be as popular as a chicken jumping into a pen of jaguars, but I just need to get it off my chest occasionally, especially when I cop some rap out of the blue like last night. And I was enjoying the video up to that point.
I will however take small issue with just one other thing:
graffiti (which can be quite creative and beautiful, contra Peter Morris’ ignorant assertion),
…as I was referring not to graffiti, which I agree, can be quite creative and beautiful, but walls and fences of graffiti tags which are (mostly) endless repetition of the style of whoever did it first. Tags started covering the world at least 40 years ago (at least in my bit of it) and while some tags can be rendered artistically, most are not and seem to be nothing more than bored kids scrawling ‘ME TOO!’ on any surface that can hold paint.
Summary: Grafitti sometimes bad, sometimes good; tags sometimes good, mostly crap, but with a small ‘r’. :-)
I’ll get off your lawn again now, Sally.
azhaelsays
I wonder if people would have made similar comments if instead of 30 seconds of rap, the video contained 30 secons of vuvuzela. I mean, clearly individual taste has nothing to do with it, it´s all about how white folk have not been exposed to the best that the vuvuzela has to offer.
I don´t mean to stirr the pot, but i´ve been accused by rap/hip hop fans of similar things before and have been subjected to the “you are ignorant and haven´t listened to the best and that makes your aesthetic statement wrong and offensive” which is annoying as fuck. And yet, if i yell “aaaaargh, that bloody vuvuzela agaaaaaain, i fucking hate that horrible shiiiit!!” i wouldn´t get the same lecturing about how it is an amazing art form and not being able to apreciate it makes me less than….let alone any implications of racism.
I know none of the posts above were directed at me but as someone who knows people who looove rap/hip hop because you know, it´s an art, but think heavy metal is the noise vikings make when they fart, i´m sensitive to this xD
azhaelsays
By the way, my stance is that anybody can like whatever they like and dislike whatever they dislike and express both as they see fit. Aside from my personal annoyance with friends and acquaintances that insist that music is music, but rap is art, i have noticed that in my case (don´t claim it to be the case for everybody, everywhere, but it is the case for me), it is the only genre that you simply cannot express overt dislike for. I can tell my crust loving friend that the 20 second song he just made me listen to was painful and has killed a small part of me, and that´s fine, but if i say i´m profoundly annoyed by the guy with the car windows down, forcing everyone to listen to their rap, i´m an oppressive arsehole with no taste.
azhaelsays
Sorry for the little monologue i´m having here, but i wantedto say that despite what i said in my previous posts, i do see where your comments are coming from. I´ve seen people go well beyond a simple expression of aesthetic dislike (no matter how exagerated or dramatic) when complaining about reggaeton, for example (which is very common here). I find it very annoying and generally terrible in terms of melodic and lirical quality but people often inject a form of prejudice into it that has nothing to do with musical taste. It should also be noted that the dislike is pretty widespread to the point that it is regarded as “trash” music. So yeah, i see how some forms of criticism are a problem, but i also think in the particular case of rap/hip hop the tolerance for any kind of criticism or overt expression of dislike is far lower than for other genres (in my experience).
nichsays
Peter Morris @80:
It is for the most part bad, often offensive verse, tunelessly set to a beat
That’s pop music “for the most part”. Hell, that’s MUSIC for the most part. Even classical. Have fun trying to get Wagner on a concert bill in Israel. To single out rap as offensive stinks of the same attitude that led to the Tweet from that dumbass politician in Minnesota . Gosh, what makes the NBA different from other sports leagues in North America? I’m sure you’re a very progressive individual. I’m sure you, and am very sure Daz, wouldn’t cop to having a racist bone in your bodies, but thanks to about 600 years of the vilest institutionalized racism, the way people view black culture here in the present comes with a fucktonne (stolen from Physioproffe) of baggage.
Azhael@ right above me:
I wonder if people would have made similar comments if instead of 30 seconds of rap, the video contained 30 secons of vuvuzela.
I think people would ask why the hell somebody set this video to something as completely incongruous as a fucking vuvuzela. Swing…and a miss!
Thank you, nich. It’s the baggage people should be aware of. The baggage is there whether you want to admit it is or not.
Thumper: Token Breedersays
On the “Rap is not moozik” cliche:
For a long time I took this attitude. I was into metal in my teens and where I come from this comes with a very specific sub-culture that is antithetical to rap. Rap was “chav music”, chavs being another youth subculture. We were “greebos” they were “chavs”, and on a friday night we went and got drunk in our separate groups before meeting up to fight each other. Listening to “their” music was a no-no, as was “them” listening to “ours”.
It didn’t take me long to grow out of it, thankfully, and open up a bit more to different music styles; and finally at uni I got to be good friends with a few people into UK hip hop who introduced me to the genre properly. For me, I find it most useful to think of rap and hip hop more as poetry than music (it is, after all, Rythmic American Poetry). What matters most is not the beat, the rythm or the meoldy; they are merely tools to set the timing of the lyrics. The focus of this artform is what they are saying. To some extent it’s how they say it, but it’s mostly what they say. And some hip hop, what they say is incredibly powerful.
I leave you this as an example. I defy anyone with a heart to listen to that song without choking up.
shawnthesheepsays
I’m a little late to the party, but I’d just like to add that if you present the fact that you shook hands with an African American as proof you aren’t racist, you might be just a little bit racist. Just about ever racist I’ve ever met has had black friends/acquaintances/heroes. It did not make them any less racist.
Have you seen the “weapon of choice” video?
I thought I had seen some good dancing, until someone turned me on to the Nicholas Brothers
I don’t recall ever seeing anything as good as that.
I remember seeing him dancing in “Pennies from Heaven” and being incredibly impressed. I think there are some bits from that movie in the mash-up. The Fat Boy Slim video posted above, “Weapon of Choice” is awesome, as well.
Wow Wow wow wow who’s the Huffington HuffPost fan here ? Looks like someone secretly following HuffingtonPost here, Wow Wow Wow
Shared it with a Walken fan. Thanks.
wow wow wowy wo… ughy ugh ugh.
troll stench in aisle 4.
It could have used a little more cowbell.
The Fatboy Slim video was excellent.
That made me ridiculously happy.
Any dance video has to be compared to this all time classic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1J3NLNWAPU
Singing begins at about 1:25 and the dancing begins about a minute later, but it is worth the wait.
You do got the moves, Mr. Walken, love your work!
This made me absurdly happy also.
I feel the urge to watch some movies with young Christopher Walken. How dashing!
Not bad. Of course, like many actors, Walken started out dancing. From the Pppffff: “Walken initially trained as a dancer in music theatre at the Washington Dance Studio, before moving on to dramatic roles in theatre and then film.” Body control is great acting technique.
@aisle 6 itchy
reality imbeciles reality., why do you so much in love with huffpost anyway ?
Another one of those new age liberal ? Bollocks.
Why do you so much English fail?
*posts link from youtube*
“You imbeciles, youtube is terrible, why you love youtube?”
Hey, the man can move. I may be just a tiny bit jealous, here, as all I’ve ever managed is a drunken hippie-sway thing that looks even goofier than it sounds.
(Also, never attempt the Time Warp in a wheelchair. It just does not work.)
Serious attaboys to the artist who made that video.
editing Master!!!
oh and that Walken guy.
—
atheistblog
watch your step
Did he not dance in that Ben Stiller/Jack Black movie? Crap. Next time I run across that at 3am on USA or somewhere I’m going to feel compelled to watch in order to check.
I first saw him dance in Weapon of Choice as linked to at #1. What ruined that video for me was the flying at the end, I wanted him to keep dancing.
But this compilation – *thumbs up* all the way, the man can move.
My friend’s dad looks almost exactly like Christopher Walken. This is just about as unnerving in reality as it sounds. I mentioned it the last time I saw her and it turns out she had never noticed. She is 43. Her dad looks almost exactly like Christopher Walken. Everyone she knows talks about the fact that her dad looks almost exactly like Christopher Walken ALL THE TIME but somehow the news never got back to her. I think we just assumed she knew.
As if this wasn’t creepy enough, her step-dad looks almost exactly like Ken Morely (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Morley)/
Neither of them can dance, though.
Having coincidentally re-watched The Prophecy (or maybe not so coincidentally… chan chan chaaaaaan) last night, i can definitely say, yes, Walken is the man.
It was great until the music turned into ‘rap’…
*******************************
Peter Morris
mortified by rap
since 1984
*******************************
Seriously? People are still upset that American black folks made an art form out of speaking rhymed verses rhythmically over a beat?
Gramps, you need to get off my lawn.
SallyStrange
I might be putting words into Peter’s mouth, but here’s how I feel on that.
I’m (slightly) upset, from a “having to hear stuff I don’t like” point of view, by how pervasive rap has become, because I don’t enjoy the style myself, and it (to an extent) displaces other styles of music, in radio shows, etc that I can’t avoid listening to. This is purely a matter of personal taste regarding sounds which I find pleasing, and has nothing to do with the origin of the genre or the skin colour of those performing it.
Very good, but all I can think of are all the really, really creepy roles he’s played over the years. No one does “stark raving bonkers” quite like Walken.
Mmmmhhhmmmmmmmm. Yes, any given white person’s utter lack of exposure to the breadth and depth of the art form that is hip hop, and their subsequent distaste for the commercialized versions of it that make onto the radio has nothing whatsoever to do with the color of anyone’s skin. Sure.
@SallyStrange 29
I’m not the one that first mentioned it, but I personally do not like most rap or hip-hop. I’ve been exposed to plenty of it, and enjoy some of it. The artists I tend to like are not white, either. There’s also plenty of white people music I don’t enjoy either. The only music I actually hate is the type that has completely offensive lyrics. This includes some rap and hip-hop, but also some country, adult contemporary, and others. So, as for me, I do enjoy some rap and hip-hop, but not a whole lot. I do enjoy a lot of R&B and just plain blues as well, so the skin color of the artist isn’t really an issue for me there, either. As for anyone else, I cannot claim to understand their thought processes until they explain them. I know there are plenty who do have a problem with certain types of art based on skin color, too.
Oh, and for the record, I do like the song in the video, rap portion included.
Oh jesus christ.
My (entirely personal) like or dislike of any given style of music has sod all to do with the ethnic or geographical origins of that style of music. If I disliked every other genre/style of music of black origin, I agree that I might need to examine my reasons for that, given that it might indicate some other, non-music-related, underlying reason.
(Nor did I say that my only exposure was via commercialised radio shows. I said that I can’t avoid it because of those shows.)
It is possible to not enjoy an art-form without disliking, or casting any judgement on, the entire culture from which it sprang. Art is subjective. You like it, or you don’t.
I like most hiphop.
I don’t like most rap.
The terms are not interchangeable.
I really hated disco.
At one company where I worked we would periodically have “talk like Christopher Walken day”.
We never had “dance like Christopher Walken day”.
Sally Strange is right.
I’m biased towards k-pop rap styles, personally. And I have a deep nostalgia for any early 90’s hip-hop, because awesome.
Anyhow,
Daz @ #27
It displaces styles of music in programming that you can’t avoid listening to?
1) Get off my lawn.
2) Change the channel. (Or, don’t pout about your choice to consume media despite its rap content.)
methuseus @ #30
I have black friends too!
Seriously?
No, really, I have black friends too!
I can appreciate that people have different tastes in music. Wildly different. There should be no need to defend an aesthetic choice by falling back on obvious racism.
For instance, there’re a bunch of queer rappers who are gaining popularity and I can totally get behind some of them; they’re great artists. But one in particular has decided that importing the extreme sexism of some hetero rap into his lyrics (I don’t know yet if it’s meant to be subversive) really turns me off of his work. I like songs about sex; I like sex. Not so much songs that demonstrably objectify bottom-identified gay men. Boy-pussy? No, thanks. I don’t want that particular facet of the patriarchy and machismo attitude imported into my culture.
There is nothing wrong with rap or hip-hop, personal taste aside. Condemning an entire art form due to personal taste and transparently defending such narrow-mindedness and cultural insulation with obvious racism illustrates a disturbing lack of self-awareness and introspection.
Now, I can’t speak for everyone, but Wow! by Kylie Minogue. Because, I can’t think of the word ‘wow’ without connecting it to that song or, depending, to Fairy Tale. Use Google.
Also, Christopher Walken is demonstrably awesome.
This is getting silly.
I cannot change the channel on a radio programme being played throughout an entire factory in which I work. I expressed slight annoyance; I did not say that this was a Huge Big Thing.
What did annoy me was that SallyStrange brought racism into this by implying that the dislike of one subset of MOBO being expressed was necessarily linked to people being “upset that American black folks [making] an art form.”
I also dislike both Scotch and Irish whiskey. Make of that what you will.
I love Irish folk music.
Guess I’m a racist fuck too!
Walken is da man!
I agree, it’s silly that you’re making absurdist comparisons to nationally branded alcohol.
If you must reply, I’ll be refreshing Thunderdome.
(That should read ‘absurd’ and not ‘absurdist’. Making sense is sometimes important and that mistake is outstanding.)
Damn my workplace and it’s shit internet, making every viceo ever unwatchably laggy.
Anyway, regardless of his dancing ability, Walken is epic.
*video. Obviously.
How the hell can you be “mortified by rap”? Whatever that means, I’m pretty sure it’s not just disliking it as music.
All hail Borkquote!
Also Tpyos. *music. Christ, why can’t I type today?
@Thomathy 35
Thank you for totally missing what I was saying. I was trying to convey that people can dislike a genre of music and it not be for racist reasons. I in no way mean I’ve never made a racist comment without thinking, though I definitely try not to.
@Thumper 44
It appears you’re agreeing with me, and if so, thank you. If you don’t agree with me, you may just have made my point better than me.
That was cool.
The main thing about Walken for me is that he scared the every loving FUCK out of me in Last Man Standing. I mean heart rate going up, dry-mouth scared–before anything violent happened.
As for rap music, this fat old white woman on average likes rap better than modern country. By quite a bit. Sure most of it is crap, but most of all popular music is crap. I especially like Lupe Fiasco.
I didn’t inject race into it. When you have a nice song and a cool video, and the song contains one (1) verse of rapping, and a person’s only response to the entire video, dancing, singing, editing, and rapping, is to announce that they are “mortified” by the mere existence of the art form of rhythmically speaking rhymed verses over a beat, race is sitting right there, staring you in the face. I don’t much care for country music, but its existence doesn’t “mortify” me, nor can I recall a time when I’ve felt compelled to announce my opinion about it the way Peter Morris did, in a conversation that really had nothing to do with country music. Hatred of country music isn’t a culturally-sanctioned dog whistle for racism the way ostentatiously announced hatred for rap/hip hop is. So, no. I didn’t inject race into anything. I noticed its existence. I’m not color-blind.
So if someone really doesn’t like let’s say reggaeton or carnatic music are they ethnicisist? I know lot’s of people who find sitars unpleasant…doesn’t make them racist, though…
I dislike rap and hip hop, i find both genres annoying and totally unappealing, but that has fuck all to do with who makes the sounds, but with the sounds themselves. Then again i like mainly metal and 80’s pop xD
@methuseus
We appear to be in general agreement on this subject, yes.
Specifically on the subject of music; modern fans, at least in my experience, tend to make a distinction between hip hop and rap. Although people tend to use the terms interchangeably, they do actually denote two different styles of music. They are similar and the difference is nebulously defined at best, but the difference seems to lie mostly in the lyrical content.
The way it was explained to me is that hip hop denotes an earlier style which arose in the 70’s and employed loops from funk and soul, and had lyrical content mostly dealing with politicised issues; black identity in the US and the problems facing the black community. The modern useage referrs to lyrical content dealing with these or similar issues. Hip hop became inextricably linked with african-american identity, and with the rise of african-american gangster sub culture in the 90’s the style was employed with new lyrical content reflecting the values of the sub-culture, mostly given over to boasting, misogyny, money, drugs and guns; with occasional nods to black oppression. This lyrical content is labelled rap. Obviously the genre exists today with both types of lyrical content present, and modern fans use the labels hip hop and rap to distinguish between the two.
How accurate this is I don’t know, but this is how it was explained to me at university by my housemate and his friend; two lads from South London both heavily into their rap/hip hop, and has been confirmed to be generally true by another friend also heavily into his UK hip hop. So I would say it has a grain of truth to it at least.
Anyway, now my long winded set-up is over: given this definition, I like some hip hop and will happily listen to most of it, but I don’t tend to like rap because I object to the majority of the lyrics. I also tend to like UK hip hop more than US artists; presumably because I find it more relateable. Generally speaking I find the genre dull, being much more into rock and indie, ska, blues and reggae (in order of preference); but that doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy any of it. I tend to like Mikill Pane for example; particularly his collaborations, notably “Little Lady” with Ed Sheeran and “Fairlytale” with The Teasers.
@Sally Strange
I definitely agree that his response was a stupid one.
I’d also say that it’s one thing to express a mere dislike of rap music, another to say that one is upset that its pervasiveness is displacing other music. Blacks can’t even win a Grammy for Best Rap Album, let alone displace entire fucking genres of white-dominated music. My hackles are similarly raised when NBA athletes are singled out as particularly thuggish. There’s a certain way that things that are intertwined with black culture get spoken of that sets off alarm bells. I’m going to take a wild guess and say that Daz and Peter are probably older, white and male.
Fuck it, I’m linking to Fairlytale. It really is fucking excellent :)
In fact, it’s the other way around.
@SallyStrange 40
The part I took exception to is that you equated Daz’s reaction @27 with Peter’s @25. Yes, Daz was being somewhat apologist, and Peter sounded possibly racist, but basically telling Daz he was being racist was unwarranted. I was put off by Peter @25, but agreed with Daz, I think.
@Thumper 51
The way I understand it (which definitely could be wrong) is that rap tends to be more spoken word style and hip-hop is more melodic, though both can have similar instrumental and lyrical content. There is still a quite large and nebulous overlap between the two by any definition I’ve heard. By your definition I’d agree that I prefer hip-hop to rap. Per your 54, I’m going to listen to that in a bit, but I have an errand to run.
methuseus
I may have muddled the waters by trying to recount the condensed history lesson that came with the explanation, so to clarify: modern fans use the terms purely to denote different lyrical content. The two labels do not denote different styles or different instrumental content.
And definitely give it a listen, I love that tune :)
I didn’t tell Daz he was racist, dude. I noted that I was skeptical that any given white person’s ostentatiously announced dislike of rap has nothing to do with race issues in the USA.
Stop getting your hackles up, and maybe you too can have rational, interesting conversations about race. It’s fun once you get the hang of it!
SallyStrange, you are far more patient than I am.
SallyStrange #58
Really? Please tell me how to read the obvious sarcasm in your #29 then.
I will apologise if I’m shown to be mistaken, but I can’t see any way to read that other than as an accusation of racism.
Odd how that works. I can’t see any way to read #27 other than “I don’t give a fuck what #25 said, whether it’s defensible or whether it even made sense; it’s time for me to whine.” Trying to put myself into your mindset, while somehow also being sensitive to not-terribly-subtle cues about racism, and it’s just not working.
@WMDKitty #17:
It does if you have the help of two strong, able-bodied friends. Though they might have problems with their backs and shoulders the next morning.
Also, don’t talk about music being “displaced,” unless it’s actually disappearing. It’s probably still being made. You can probably still listen to it. It probably isn’t going anywhere, given that we invented these things called “recordings” not long ago.
I did carefully note that I might be putting words into Peter’s mouth. On the other hand, I know many people who claim that rap music “isn’t music” on the grounds that it’s not sung, but spoken, and tend to use such hyperbole to express that sentiment, whilst not being racist. (Not my reason for dislike. I couldn’t tell you why I dislike most rap; I just do.)
If that blew some dog-whistles I’m unaware of, I apologise.
And you don’t suppose that’s transparently covering up for racism, despite their claims?
Actual musicologists and music theorists can tell you what constitutes music, if you (or these “many people” you know) were actually interested in that question, and singing definitely isn’t among the criteria. Indeed, the lyrics don’t tend to be in natural spoken language anyway, so on top of the other absurdities, we’d have to believe rhythm isn’t one of the defining features of music. So how’s that supposed to be “grounded” in anything?
I didn’t say it made sense, either as an objection to it being “real music” or as a reason to dislike it. (Because obviously it doesn’t. And, after all, it’s possible to like it as a poetry form, even if you don’t think it should be called music.) I do know that many of those defenders of “real music” who I’ve met don’t seem to mind other music of black origin, which leads me to discount racism as a motive. Maybe I’m naïve on this subject.
Okay. Your claim was that they’re not racist. Not much I needed to do about an assertion. But now you support it like so:
Have you ever encountered people who claim to have “black friends” or claim to know “good black people” or who “don’t seem to mind” some black people sometimes, yet also say and do racist things occasionally? I have. It’s not as if you must be a Nazi Klansman who’s 100% opposed to every conceivable thing about all black/brown people in order to say and do racist things occasionally. We’re talking about whether this particular action/belief/argument is likely to be racist (no matter what “motive” the person might supply you), and not talking about whether the person (as a whole) is what you deem to be a sufficiently racist person or not-racist person.
It is possible to be wrong, yes. Where’s that supposed to leave us?
Boyoboy, that Christopher Walken can dance!
To make it even clearer: no matter what “motive” they supply, even to themselves. People are not infallible about their own motivations. They might honestly tell you what they honestly think is going on in their heads, but in fact that may not be what is happening their heads. We simply aren’t built to do that kind of self-reflection. It’s important to keep that in mind.
Yeah, and seconding those who want to go watch his old movies now.
Come off it, guys. It’s okay if rap and/or hip-hop isn’t someone’s cup of tea, and it doesn’t make them (or me) racist to say so.
In addition to what consciousness razor has pointed out in response to this, I would also say that to paint a person’s acceptance of, say, jazz or reggae, as opposed to their rejection of hip hop, as evidence of their lack of racism, is pretty ahistorical. Jazz especially had pretty much exactly the same reputation when it was the nation’s dominant form of popular music as hip hop does today–it was associated with criminality, drugs, violence, and people said it wasn’t “real music.” Ditto rock & roll. Plus, rap/hip hop is the only popular musical form that, despite the best efforts of the Grammy Academy, remains dominated by black people, in contrast to the paths taken by rock & roll and jazz music.
In other words, Daz, yes, claims that hip hop/rap doesn’t constitute “real music” and loud protestations of one’s dislike for the entire genre really are common racist dog whistles. My remark to you was not an accusation that you, Daz, are a racist (and thus, obviously, a Very Bad Man), but rather an observation that any given white American is likely to a.) have limited exposure to the best hip hop has to offer and b.) be influenced by implicit racial biases.
CR #67
Yes, and usually they turn out, if examined, not to have those black friends they claim to have, or their definition of “good” turns out to be “not outspoken,” and/or “entertaining” (as in actors, singers, etc).
I’m talking of people who actually collect and listen to many other styles of MOBO. That constitutes a certain amount of physical evidence that the ethnic origin of music isn’t something which informs their tastes.
And I now realise I’ve made an assumption: Obviously, another objection to rap music is based on the “black gangster” stereotype. I made an assumption that Peter, reading and commenting on a liberal blog, was more likely to be using the “not real music” or similar reason, than to be using that stereotype.
I had to watch it twice to try and figure out what the complaint was about. Frankly, I still don’t see it. The rapping folds well into the music of this song and isn’t jarring in the least. I’ve seen some pop songs incorporate an obligatory 30 seconds of rapping into music where it simply didn’t work well, but I can’t say that’s the case here.
SallyStrange #72
Okay, I didn’t realise it was that common. Also see the last paragraph of my previous. I apologise for mistaking your meaning earlier.
That’s not the claim. The claim is that watching an awesome video of Christopher Walken dancing to the music of Dee-Lite, which is mostly singing, and maybe 1/4 rapping, and your only takeaway is “the rapping ruined everything” and you feel compelled to announce this and nothing else, then it’s a distinct possibility that your animus towards the genre is grounded in more than musical aesthetic preferences.
It is Dee-Lite, right? Haven’t the time to look it up at the moment.
Thanks Daz.
I haven’t said that.
But it depends on how you exactly say “it’s not my cup of tea,” I guess. Grant yourself a fake musicology degree first, then start excluding groups of people and their work from the music community and the very concept of music itself, then yeah, that starts to seem just a bit racist. Suspicious, at the very least. Closer to that than simply not being “someone’s cup of tea.”
I will say one thing, re: Peter. If he was just doing the grumbly old “it hasn’t got two guitars, a bass and a drum kit,” it would have been rather bloody spiffing if he’d come back and explained what he meant.
Wow.
I’ll have to lob a grenade more often. I wrote my comment before going to bed and expected it to be ignored.
New day dawns…and weee. :-)
To be clear here – *rap* transcends racial, gender, age and cultural boundaries. It is everywhere. It is unavoidable. It is for the most part bad, often offensive verse, tunelessly set to a beat. Throw in predictable devil fingers and agro stares and repeat for thirty years. A bit like grafitti tags – all the originality of chimps throwing poo.
I really dont want to hear dubious philosophies shouted semi-rhythmically at me whenever I walk near a music store. It sits outside my personal definition of music. You are welcome to redefine music your way, but that is mine.
I am not racist, agist, sexist or any other ist. I also do not live in the USA, but whatever the USA produces tends to get around. Your country has produced great things (as a personal bias, I wish you would collectively value NASA more). But, returning to, and ending ‘on topic’: RAP is one of the worst cultural exports to escape your shores since the invention of Wall Street.
Have a nice day. :) You too Sally. I’ll keep off your lawn. Promise.
As I was saying, some people dislike it for really stupid reasons other than racism.
They also don’t listen very attentively to 95% of “traditional” rock/pop.
I despise music played on racist dog whistles (surely the worst instrument ever).
This is a cracking joke which I feel will be unappreciated in its time. Frankly, you, as an audience, need to up your game.
Louis
P.S. And yes, Walken has the moves.
@SallyStrange
What a bald faced lie. I am speechless. I leave you with your own words.
Oh and back to the topic. He does dance nicely, don’t he?
Peter Morris wrote:
Only insofar as 90% of everything is crap, making an equivalent proportion of rap and/or hip hop also trash.
I’m not a fan of most hip hop and rap myself, but I don’t call it “not music”. I despise country and western music far more than anything else, and I wouldn’t define that as “not music” either.
If you say so, it must be true! Would you let them use your washroom?
Well, let’s see.
On Wednesday evening I shook hands and briefly spoke with a personal hero of mine, Charles Bolden, four time pilot/commander astronaut, deliverer of the Hubble Space Telescope to orbit, current head of NASA, and last time I looked, all African American. Does he count?
*facepalm* I forget to let him use my toilet! Next time Charlie… sorry…
…and yes, that Christopher Walken is one cool dancin’ dude…
You know, people who have no personal animus towards black people are perfectly capable of repeating racist dog whistles… such as comparing people of color to chimps.
It doesn’t make you a bad person. It makes you an ordinary person who did racism for a minute. Or however long you choose to repeat those racist tropes.
In order to be successful at not perpetuating racism, it helps to be aware of one’s own implicit biases. People who announce that they simply are not “racist, sexist, etc.,” are usually wrong, because they’re in denial about implicit biases.
Hip hop is definitely music, and denying that hip hop is music is a thing that is usually done by racists. But whatever, Peter. If ignorance and denial suit you, then there isn’t much anyone else can do about it, is there?
C+C Music Factory.
Gosh Sally, I guess I needed to move the chimp reference to a different paragraph to avoid the magical magnetic link through things-I-don’t-relate-to-racism, to not make it racist.
All humans and chimps share an evolutionary link to an earlier apey-monkey-esque form. No present human colour is safe (The ‘u’ in the fourth word of the last sentence is a clue I am not of the US and don’t have quite the hair-trigger response to race issues as you seem to). I am happily as close to a chimp as any African American (or anyone else). Not my hangup. So:
My attitude to to rap has zero racist intent. If rap had hung around for a couple of years in the 1980’s and faded away I would have been ok with that. It was clever the first couple of times. But 30 plus years? Jesus Christ! cRap is a one trick pony and is so fucking repetitively tedious no matter how you look at it. But that is just me. :-) Your mileage may vary. ;-)
Full Disclosure: My own music of choice is all the music you would group together as ‘Classical Music’. I play trombone in an orchestra. It is a long way from rap. Having said that, the infamous PDQ Bach, last son of JS Bach, wrote the only piece of rap I have any time for. It is called ‘Classical Rap’ and is performed by full orchestra and Professor Peter Schickele of the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople. Now that’s a tune.
SallyStrange:
It is my understanding that Daz is not, in fact, an American.
You may take from that what you will.
—
I’ve posted this before, but it bears reposting.
Lemon D – Urban Style Music
America is not the only country in which “urban music” is a worthwhile and valid thing.
Peter Morris–You understand that intent and effect aren’t always in perfect alignment, right? Just stop saying that hip hop/rap isn’t music (you are, objectively speaking, wrong, and your personal definition of music is entirely irrelevant), and we’ll be cool.
Maybe if you just, you know, went around not liking it instead of grousing about how much you don’t like it, when it’s really not relevant to the conversation (also something racists do), then you could avoid these sorts of discussions entirely. Just a suggestion.
Johnny Pez–thanks for that. I really loved this song when it first came out. Haven’t listened to it in a while.
cm’s changeable moniker–I figured that was a possibility. I just can’t really speak to the exposure to hop hop that people in other countries get, especially given the growth of indigenous hip hop forms and adaptations throughout the world. I figure, if it doesn’t apply, it doesn’t apply. But in general, if you have minimal exposure to an art form, it’s not very cool to just exclude it from the whole category of art.
Incidentally, I think a little more explanation about the relationship between rap and hip hop is in order. As it was explained to me, rap is one of the elements of hip hop. Hip hop is the larger cultural movement. Among its other elements are graffiti (which can be quite creative and beautiful, contra Peter Morris’ ignorant assertion), breakdancing, and DJing. Ideally, a concern for social justice and black empowerment comes along with the whole package. Which is why a lot of hip hop heads will moan and complain about how hip hop is dead, and have been for at least 20 years (basically since the music industry realized that the hip hop aesthetic could be a money maker). It is true that rap has been incorporated into the commercialized dreck that gets a lot of radio play these days, but it’s not the rapping that makes it awful–the fact that it’s commercialized dreck makes it awful. Replacing rapped verses with sung verses would not exactly save, for instance, “Scream and Shout” by Will.I.Am and Britney Spears from being an annoying contrived over-synthesized piece of crap.
Nice! I lurve Walken. Beautifully elegant in speaking, acting, and dancing. Although the bits from Communion scared me. Greys have always terrified me even though i don’t believe in them – and that first scene in Communion when Walken wakes up from a nightmare and he’s just staring at the dark corner of the room with that ghoulish visage only Walken can do, then he whispers “I see you.” and the grey peeks out from behind the dresser. Uggh!!!
“Rap is what you do. Hip-hop is what you live.”
SallyS:
We can be cool Sally. I repect your passion. I thought it likely spreading my view on rap would be as popular as a chicken jumping into a pen of jaguars, but I just need to get it off my chest occasionally, especially when I cop some rap out of the blue like last night. And I was enjoying the video up to that point.
I will however take small issue with just one other thing:
…as I was referring not to graffiti, which I agree, can be quite creative and beautiful, but walls and fences of graffiti tags which are (mostly) endless repetition of the style of whoever did it first. Tags started covering the world at least 40 years ago (at least in my bit of it) and while some tags can be rendered artistically, most are not and seem to be nothing more than bored kids scrawling ‘ME TOO!’ on any surface that can hold paint.
Summary: Grafitti sometimes bad, sometimes good; tags sometimes good, mostly crap, but with a small ‘r’. :-)
I’ll get off your lawn again now, Sally.
I wonder if people would have made similar comments if instead of 30 seconds of rap, the video contained 30 secons of vuvuzela. I mean, clearly individual taste has nothing to do with it, it´s all about how white folk have not been exposed to the best that the vuvuzela has to offer.
I don´t mean to stirr the pot, but i´ve been accused by rap/hip hop fans of similar things before and have been subjected to the “you are ignorant and haven´t listened to the best and that makes your aesthetic statement wrong and offensive” which is annoying as fuck. And yet, if i yell “aaaaargh, that bloody vuvuzela agaaaaaain, i fucking hate that horrible shiiiit!!” i wouldn´t get the same lecturing about how it is an amazing art form and not being able to apreciate it makes me less than….let alone any implications of racism.
I know none of the posts above were directed at me but as someone who knows people who looove rap/hip hop because you know, it´s an art, but think heavy metal is the noise vikings make when they fart, i´m sensitive to this xD
By the way, my stance is that anybody can like whatever they like and dislike whatever they dislike and express both as they see fit. Aside from my personal annoyance with friends and acquaintances that insist that music is music, but rap is art, i have noticed that in my case (don´t claim it to be the case for everybody, everywhere, but it is the case for me), it is the only genre that you simply cannot express overt dislike for. I can tell my crust loving friend that the 20 second song he just made me listen to was painful and has killed a small part of me, and that´s fine, but if i say i´m profoundly annoyed by the guy with the car windows down, forcing everyone to listen to their rap, i´m an oppressive arsehole with no taste.
Sorry for the little monologue i´m having here, but i wantedto say that despite what i said in my previous posts, i do see where your comments are coming from. I´ve seen people go well beyond a simple expression of aesthetic dislike (no matter how exagerated or dramatic) when complaining about reggaeton, for example (which is very common here). I find it very annoying and generally terrible in terms of melodic and lirical quality but people often inject a form of prejudice into it that has nothing to do with musical taste. It should also be noted that the dislike is pretty widespread to the point that it is regarded as “trash” music. So yeah, i see how some forms of criticism are a problem, but i also think in the particular case of rap/hip hop the tolerance for any kind of criticism or overt expression of dislike is far lower than for other genres (in my experience).
Peter Morris @80:
That’s pop music “for the most part”. Hell, that’s MUSIC for the most part. Even classical. Have fun trying to get Wagner on a concert bill in Israel. To single out rap as offensive stinks of the same attitude that led to the Tweet from that dumbass politician in Minnesota . Gosh, what makes the NBA different from other sports leagues in North America? I’m sure you’re a very progressive individual. I’m sure you, and am very sure Daz, wouldn’t cop to having a racist bone in your bodies, but thanks to about 600 years of the vilest institutionalized racism, the way people view black culture here in the present comes with a fucktonne (stolen from Physioproffe) of baggage.
Azhael@ right above me:
I think people would ask why the hell somebody set this video to something as completely incongruous as a fucking vuvuzela. Swing…and a miss!
Thank you, nich. It’s the baggage people should be aware of. The baggage is there whether you want to admit it is or not.
On the “Rap is not moozik” cliche:
For a long time I took this attitude. I was into metal in my teens and where I come from this comes with a very specific sub-culture that is antithetical to rap. Rap was “chav music”, chavs being another youth subculture. We were “greebos” they were “chavs”, and on a friday night we went and got drunk in our separate groups before meeting up to fight each other. Listening to “their” music was a no-no, as was “them” listening to “ours”.
It didn’t take me long to grow out of it, thankfully, and open up a bit more to different music styles; and finally at uni I got to be good friends with a few people into UK hip hop who introduced me to the genre properly. For me, I find it most useful to think of rap and hip hop more as poetry than music (it is, after all, Rythmic American Poetry). What matters most is not the beat, the rythm or the meoldy; they are merely tools to set the timing of the lyrics. The focus of this artform is what they are saying. To some extent it’s how they say it, but it’s mostly what they say. And some hip hop, what they say is incredibly powerful.
I leave you this as an example. I defy anyone with a heart to listen to that song without choking up.
I’m a little late to the party, but I’d just like to add that if you present the fact that you shook hands with an African American as proof you aren’t racist, you might be just a little bit racist. Just about ever racist I’ve ever met has had black friends/acquaintances/heroes. It did not make them any less racist.
OK. I see the pattern now.
So, I am still not-racist (but bemused by the unrelenting accusation), rap remains pseudo-musical noise pollution and you can all fuck off.
Courteously. :)
*******************************
Peter Morris
mortified by rap
since 1984
*******************************
Peter Morris
No one actually thinks you are the messiah.
Tor Cesay – From Women – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhEU_XR_URM