Short, sweet, and directly on point. Well done, Rajesh!
chriscosays
Nicely said. Short and sweet. Just like i like.
rajeshshenoysays
A happy person, heartwarming.
Thanks! I’m sure this website’ll appear to be a lot faster now – I’ve been refreshing it furiously in my browser for the last couple weeks just to see if PZ’s posted my email! So you can imagine my delight now…!
Short, sweet, and directly on point. Well done, Rajesh!
Thanks a lot! I believe, at the end of any tedious trials and tribulations each of us might have to go through (or not) (sharing of which is what this series of “Why I am an atheist” posts is designed for), THAT is the one final necessary step each person HAS to take, in order to become an atheist. It is the essence of Freethinking – a necessary condition to becoming an atheist of the sort PZ represents.
I’m waiting for the Pharyngula echo-chamber to begin their chanting like they did to this guy.
Don’t worry if they do, Rajesh, you’re still a king…
rajeshshenoysays
Thanks for the heads up, Porco. Bracing myself up here.
BTW, ‘Raj’ means king. ‘Rajesh’ means ‘god-king’ … oops … *whimpers away*
ibyeasays
@Porco Dio
Yeah, because criticizing someone is what people do in echo chambers. /
Porco Diosays
BTW, ‘Raj’ means king. ‘Rajesh’ means ‘god-king’ … oops … *whimpers away*
So, would that make you the god of kings or the king of gods?
Anyway, porco dio means pig god… Italian slang…. oink.
Circesays
Porco Dio:
I am a native Hindi speaker, and I think “Rajesh” can be either “king of kings” or “master of kings” or with some linguistic stretching, “god of kings”, but not “king of gods”.
Porco Diosays
@Porco Dio
Yeah, because criticizing someone is what people do in echo chambers.
Nah, criticism (in my case) is what makes you a troll and a thread derailer according to the flock of regulars here…
Bleating like a Bleu du Maine just to gussy up you mate’s opinion is what you do in an echo chamber. Just like they did in Grhams thread.
Louissays
Porco Dio,
It couldn’t be that your “criticism” isn’t very cogent or coherent could it?
Louis
vaiytsays
@Porco Dio:
u mad because we don’t love you.
Browniansays
u mad because we don’t love you.
Nah. Porco’s just showing us how you win friends and influence people. He’s very good at it, he keeps telling us.
Louissays
Brownian,
I’ve always found Porco’s criticism to be insightful and trenchant and not at all troll-ish…
…no…wait…it’s the opposite thing isn’t it? Bugger I always mix those two up.
Louis
Browniansays
Nah, criticism (in my case) is what makes you a troll and a thread derailer according to the flock of regulars here…
Actually, showing up at a website with the intent of provoking arguments is the definition of trolling, everywhere.
Claiming that you’re the hapless victim of terrible groupthink places you among the vast majority of uninteresting trolls.
Claiming that you’re actually here to provide much needed, thoughful criticism places you in the company of dishonest, uninteresting trolls.
Your belief that despite your dishonest, uninteresting trollishness you’ve actually got insight into communication strategies that most of us here lack makes you a spectacularly self-deluded, dishonest, uninteresting troll.
Browniansays
Bugger I always mix those two up.
It’s okay. So does Porco. I guess that makes you special and important.
Louissays
Brownian,
Special and important? That’s what my mummy tells me is the case.
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory [“waiting for the Pharyngula echo-chamber to begin their chanting”], extraneous , or off-topic messages [“like they did to this guy”] in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
Examples in italics.
Hmm. Not just “according to the flock of regulars here”.
So it would seem that it’s not actually the case that Porco’s the innocent victim of a smear campaign by the specific commentors here.
Ogvorbis: Insert Appropriate Appelation Heresays
So it would seem that it’s not actually the case that Porco’s the innocent victim of a smear campaign by the specific commentors here.
Oh, that’s unfair, Brownian. After all, he was forced to come here and . . . .
What? He wasn’t?
Well, he’s being forced to stay here and . . . .
Oh.
Erm, what the hell?
phroggesays
Until now I’ve resisted the temptation to give my own reason Why I Am an Atheist: Because, brain!
Porco Diosays
@Brownian #21
If you think that my “echo-chamber” comment was inflammatory you need to grow a few and check out all the “fuck you’s” and other stupidities that get handed out here. IIRC the rules of this forum state something like people here are not polite etc.
If you think that referencing the “because I’m an adult” theme of Grahams post was OT because this post is pretty much the same then you are not as pseudo-intellectual as you think you are.
Therefore your argument of trolling doesn’t hold water.
I, for one, compliment Rajesh on his stance. After all, India is a mire of problems ranging from corruption to castes to religious inanity. So three cheers to anyone who can rise above that.
And I’m wondering where the pseudo-intellectual consistency is in not pointing out that this is the same non sequitur that Graham made. Either that or I am wondering why those who don’t agree with the assault on Graham don’t defend him in the comments but rather just silently pass over the idiocy of their flock.
Let Rajesh have a warm moment in the spotlight. If you want something interesting to discuss go to the other thread where I’ve taken a stance on Australian racism.
jimvjsays
Well said!
My favorite Hindu name is “Mahalingam”. Translated literally it means “great phallus” or “great phallic symbol”.
Hindus, of course, will take the fun out of the name with protestations that it is in honor of Lord Shiva, blah, blah …
Ah, Porco. Nothing says “I am not a troll” like jumping in with a comment that preemptively dismisses criticism by insisting that the commenters to follow are incapable of forming their own opinions.
I congratulate Rajesh on learning to form his own opinions and think for himself. Enjoy your warm moment in the spotlight.
As for Porco, enjoy your warm moment wallowing in your own goo.
Browniansays
Let Rajesh have a warm moment in the spotlight.
No, you don’t get to play that card now.
Or were people not supposed to respond to your opening comment, which was: “I’m waiting for the Pharyngula echo-chamber to begin their chanting like they did to this guy“?
Because that’s all I’m doing: responding to that opening comment of yours, which was not about Rajesh’s post, but the people here and your problem with them and their responses to another post. Are you asking people not to feed the troll by not responding?
And I’m wondering where the pseudo-intellectual consistency is in not pointing out that this is the same non sequitur that Graham made.
So now you’re upset that people aren’t jumping on him? Not being consistent in your eyes? “C’mon guys: it’s inconsistent for you to let Rajesh have his warm moment in the sun when you didn’t do so for Graham, and I really want to chastise you all for not letting Rajesh have his warm moment in the sun.”
You’ve made this about something other than Rajesh’s post. If you were concerned that this discussion would not be about Rajesh’s post, then you should not have written in your opening comment, “I’m waiting for the Pharyngula echo-chamber to begin their chanting like they did to this guy“, which again, is instead about other people on other threads.
Let Rajesh have a warm moment in the spotlight. If you want something interesting to discuss go to the other thread where I’ve taken a stance on Australian racism.
Ah. In context, you clearly are asking people not to respond to your derail, and in effect, not feed the troll.
“Since you didn’t jump on Rajesh as I expected you to, I’ll instead chastise you for responding to my opening comment, and invite you to converse with me elsewhere and leave this thread for Rajesh bask in his glory.”
If you were an honest person who wrote what he meant, you would have waited until someone actually did jump on Rajesh’s post before defending it. There are many regular commentors here who started out with similar trollish behaviour. Over time, they learned to treat with the post at hand, responding to issues as they arise, rather than pre-emptively using the post as a convenient whetstone upon which to grind their axe with the community itself.
But, given your responses to the responses to your opening comment here, as well as on other threads, I have justifiable doubt that you’ll ever do that. Feel free to search this site: I have rarely, if ever, asked PZ for the banhammer. But I’m doing so now, because you’re either fundamentally dishonest or incapable of writing what you actually mean, and either way you bring nothing to the table. It’s time for you to find a more productive way of spending your time.
Rajesh, your excitement over having PZ post your WIAAA is adorable. I’m happy for you. And I apologise for participating in Porco Dio’s derail.
Yes, it is! Exciting, ennit? I appreciate your brevity and here’s to always learning and always thinking and loving it. *clink*
echidnasays
“Learning to think for yourself” is not trivial, because it involves letting go of your trust in figures such as parents and priests, and other authority figures.
I like the brevity of the post, and the resonances it sets up.
No, it isn’t. Not in the least. A great many people go their whole life without learning to think for themselves. There are days when I’m tempted to think it’s close to a lost art.
Or were people not supposed to respond to your opening comment, which was: “I’m waiting for the Pharyngula echo-chamber to begin their chanting like they did to this guy“?
Which just goes to show that you didn’t bother to read my objection at all. This one is not a non-sequitor or promote the annoying view of the ubbermesh atheist
And I’m wondering where the pseudo-intellectual consistency is in not pointing out that this is the same non sequitur that Graham made.
Considering I was the person to dislike Graham’s comment (and his attitude) you could have at least waited to see if I commented to see if I disagreed or not.
Graham’s statement was snide and belittling, equivalent to “because I’M not an idiot”. This one shares some elements in that it isn’t very insightful but doesn’t get into the whole “theists are teh dumb” atheist trope that I hate.
Either that or I am wondering why those who don’t agree with the assault on Graham don’t defend him in the comments but rather just silently pass over the idiocy of their flock.
Tell you what, why don’t you figure out what you’re actually thinking and then get back to us? We can put this on hold for a few months. Jackass
I, for one, compliment Rajesh on his stance. After all, India is a mire of problems ranging from corruption to castes to religious inanity. So three cheers to anyone who can rise above that.
Hmm? I’m sure Rajesh is against all three, but why assume that an Indian atheist is automatically against caste discrimination or corruption? Since racism, sexism and other cultural prejudices exist among Western atheists, there is no reason to assume that Indian atheists would be free from their own cultural prejudices (though I’m sure many of them are).
Conversely, why assume or imply that religious Hindus are in favour of caste discrimination? My parents are quasi-religious Hindus and wouldn’t even tell me what “caste” the two sides of my family were until I asked them when I was 17. (Originally they claimed they didn’t know because everyone forgot their jatis when they moved from India to Malaysia). Rajesh doesn’t have that luxury, because he has one of those surnames that tell people exactly what his ancestors did… though I’m sure he doesn’t care.
Don’t you think it’s a little patronising to give three special little cheers to an Indian person for being a decent human being and supporting universal rights? Are you unaware that most educated Indians are against corruption and caste discrimination, at least nominally, regardless of their religiosity?
By the way, I give you three cheers for rising above the racist anti-immigration rhetoric bogging down Italy at the moment (assuming you do rise above it).
@jimv #25
My favorite Hindu name is “Mahalingam”. Translated literally it means “great phallus” or “great phallic symbol”.
Hindus, of course, will take the fun out of the name with protestations that it is in honor of Lord Shiva, blah, blah …
Yeah, don’t you just hate it when people take the fun out of you mocking their culture by, like, putting things in context and stuff? Because I hate that.
#ignorantforeignerstalkingshitaboutdesis
benkvisays
I agree with 27, 32, 33. What is it with this moronic Porco douche. Though s/he may have reached the Graham level of existence, I really don’t think s/he’s on par with Rajesh’ yet. Is the difference so difficult to grasp? I don’t think so.
Rajesh, I think you nailed it. It really is the difference.
He’s a troll. He does shit like this in every thread. Every post of his can be reduced to “OH YEAH!? OH YEAH!?”
Porco Diosays
Considering I was the person to dislike Graham’s comment (and his attitude) you could have at least waited to see if I commented to see if I disagreed or not.
Of course this is the same non sequitur.
St Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Ken Miller, Francis Collins… They could all think for themselves…
Exactly the same non sequitur.
When Graham mentioned “adult” I thought of the word in the context it was taught to me as a kid. “Transactional Analysis” is what I grew up with and those are the terms with which I understand the word “adult”…. with the PAC model.
The cassette tape “T.A. For Tots and Other Prinzes” wore itself out in my home… google it… gives me warm fuzzies just thinking about it…
And cold pricklies reading your nonsense is what I get.
No need to “wait for your response” in this thread. The rest of the echo-chamber has been around to call this out in the same way they (you) called Graham out.
But nobody called Rajesh on this because his argument is fine…, just as Graham’s argument is fine.
It’s just the echo-chamber that needs to be retuned.
Graham’s statement was snide and belittling, equivalent to “because I’M not an idiot”. This one shares some elements in that it isn’t very insightful but doesn’t get into the whole “theists are teh dumb” atheist trope that I hate.
Because it tells us nothing, gives no actual information, and is misleading on the reality of the situation.
It’s like saying someone with a phobia just has to be rational and face their fear. Yeah no shit, it’s not that easy though.
Figuring out the God question is both simple and incredibly difficult. If it’s easy for Graham, great…but that’s not how it is for a good chunk of people and it’s not due to an unusual defect in reasoning or failure to mature, entirely. Religion preys upon every defect and flaw in human reasoning that 99% of the population innately suffer from.
To give the Santa/Christ comparison again there’s a big difference. Society gives you an socially accepted path for rejecting Santa that does not humiliate you or cause you to loose standing in your community; in fact it is EXPECTED. The same social mechanisms that push children towards disbelief of Santa are the same ones that keep people in belief of God.
To give wittle baby Porco his bottle. What I said about the thread he linked. Anyone can judge for themselves if it applies here. *eye roll&*
Oh Rajesh, now you’re supposed to get mad at me so we can fight and Porco can get a boner
benkvisays
St Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Ken Miller, Francis Collins… They could all think for themselves…
Exactly the same non sequitur.
So you know irony at least. Though you owe me an apology for the hard facepalm.
mackengasays
@Porco:
“Transactional Analysis” is what I grew up with
Then you must realise you’re playing a game here, right? Or do you just remember the PAC terminology and the long words from the cassette label?
Woo_Monstersays
Porco Dio, unoriginal boring troll,
I’m waiting for the Pharyngula echo-chamber to begin their chanting like they did to this guy.
Eight hours later, still no “chanting” from the “echo-chamber” denouncing Rajesh’s Why I am an Atheist post, yet Porco “farts for brains” Dio doubles down,
No need to “wait for your response” in this thread. The rest of the echo-chamber has been around to call this out in the same way they (you) called Graham out.
Yep, the Pharyngula “echo-chamber” was around. Yet your idiotic prediction did not come true. It seems that there are nuances to be found between Graham and Rajesh’s statements.
Fuck off you stupid troll.
Meh, Brownian already described you perfectly, I don’t know why I am bothering. Porco, if you feel the urge to post again, just reread the following over and over until that desire subsides.
Claiming that you’re the hapless victim of terrible groupthink places you among the vast majority of uninteresting trolls.
Claiming that you’re actually here to provide much needed, thoughful criticism places you in the company of dishonest, uninteresting trolls.
Your belief that despite your dishonest, uninteresting trollishness you’ve actually got insight into communication strategies that most of us here lack makes you a spectacularly self-deluded, dishonest, uninteresting troll.
Eat shit Porco
Holmssays
@8 Porco:
…Six people? SHOCKING!
Anyway the fact remains that these extremely glib answers are uninteresting to me (and perhaps others), as they tell me nothing about the mental process. An explanation that explains nothing is useless.
frankbsays
I am looking at Ing’s comment #32 and his comment #38.
Comment #32
Considering I was the person to dislike Graham’s comment (and his attitude) you could have at least waited to see if I commented to see if I disagreed or not.
Graham’s statement was snide and belittling, equivalent to “because I’M not an idiot”. This one shares some elements in that it isn’t very insightful but doesn’t get into the whole “theists are teh dumb” atheist trope that I hate.
Comment #38
21 April 2012 at 7:50 pm
@Porco
Graham’s statement was snide and belittling, equivalent to “because I’M not an idiot”. This one shares some elements in that it isn’t very insightful but doesn’t get into the whole “theists are teh dumb” atheist trope that I hate.
Fucking idiot.
Ing appears to be quoting himself and attributing it to Porco. Am I missing something here?
Woo_Monstersays
Holms,
I don’t see Rajesh’s response as necessarily shallow, superficial, or flippant. Thinking for one’s self, discarding dogma and presumed authority, these do actually lead one to atheism. Do not equivocate concise with glib.
If I were to have submitted a WIAA response, it would be something along the lines of:
“Because atheism is a natural consequence of skeptical thinking”.
I don’t see mine and Rajesh’s response as very dissimilar. “Think for yourself”, it is a short and sweet message. It also gets at a substantial truth.
Anyway the fact remains that these extremely glib answers are uninteresting to me
Then why in the fuck are you taking the time to comment on something which doesn’t interest you? Did you think your whine is all that important?
Besides, what Rajesh said? Not glib at all. See my comments at #28 and #30.
Woo_Monstersays
It’s absolutely shameful, the behaviour in this thread.
This. You are a disgrace Porco. Can’t you let a joyful expression of someone’s reasons for being an atheist stand without forcing the discussion to your conspiracy views about Pharyngula being an “echo-chamber”?
Why I am an atheist – Rajesh Shenoy,
Because I have learned to think for myself.
QFT
thewhollynonesays
Humans being the social animals that we are, and brain development in human children being what it is, “learning to think for yourself” is a delusion. Learning to think like other rational humans is, however, a possibility even though the learning curve appears somewhat steep.
Ing appears to be quoting himself and attributing it to Porco. Am I missing something here?
Because Porco quoted the first part of my comment, criticized me for stuff that was addressed in the second part which I quoted.
rajeshshenoysays
Whoa! I just retired to catch some shut-eye overnight in my time-zone, and this thread has flared up to 50 comments!
@All Thanks a lot for a very interesting discussion! I’ve seen quite some support and good will expressed for me – can’t be thankful enough for this! Other discussions here I know are carry-forwards from previous threads (and will in all likelihood continue in future threads). Great to see the fiercely independent viewpoints exchanged – I can clearly see why PZ is so proud of this fierce crowd!
Love y’all!
Browniansays
Awesome Rajesh. Love back!
Agent Silversmith, Post Palladium Isotopesays
Good on you, Rajesh. You keep thinking for yourself. It’s the only way to go.
KGsays
Rajesh,
If you’re still around, I’d be interested to hear more detail about how you learned to think for yourself. Most of the atheists around here had a Christian cultural background (even if their parents were non-Christians, most were brought up in a predominantly Christian culture), so it’s good to get some atheist viewpoints from outwith that context.
KGsays
When Graham mentioned “adult” I thought of the word in the context it was taught to me as a kid. “Transactional Analysis” is what I grew up with – porco dio
I wonder if upbringing in a quasi-religion like TA tends to produce trolls. Certainly in porco dio we have an unusually pure specimen; xe quite evidently has no purpose here other than to provoke, annoy and denigrate.
rajeshshenoysays
@KG Thanks for your interest. I was brought up in a predominantly secular society. BUT, secularism in India is defined and meant (right in the Constitution itself) very differently from what it means in the West. It is not “absence of religion,” but “equal respect for all religions.” So my “secular” upbringing meant that I followed Hindu traditions at home, attended a private Catholic convent school (run by nuns, complete with “Moral Science” classes every week and a voluntary visit to a Chapel in the school premises every day or so with friends), and had mostly Muslim friends (since our house was located in a Muslim area).
You can imagine in such an environment, there’s no dearth of exposure to innumerable no. of religious ideas, beliefs, books, discussions, practices, etc. Thinking back now, it was pretty clear to me early on that there were several contradictions among the various religions. When I once asked mom, I remember her answering that there were no conflicts, and that it’s just our understanding that was incomplete, and by the way have you completed your homework, and if so maybe you should go and revise again :) You know how evasive theists need to be.
Another factor which played a major role was access to Carl Sagan’s books and a complete set of encyclopedia during the summer vacations I’d spend at an aunt’s place. I remember I used to spend weeks on the sofa with the books, and my aunt would get worried. This really opened up my mind to the wonderful natural world out there. Carl Sagan’s sharp logical analytical thinking definitely re-wired my brain for life.
The final straw came one summer when I was 12 years old. Inspired by Gandhi’s book “My Experiments With Truth,” I decided to “experiment” and stop praying. I was fully prepared to face any results – after all 8th grade final exams were already over and I had done ok, so what could possibly go so terribly wrong before the next exams?! So I just stopped praying one day. Needless to say, the course of the universe did not change one bit. And I’ve done reasonably well in all exams since, to boot! QED!
KGsays
Rajesh,
Thanks – in fact, “secular” also has that meaning in the west, although it is often used in the sense of “non-religious”. I can understand that being exposed from a young age to multiple religions might predispose you to question all of them, although clearly many who are so exposed do not. From the little I know of Indian history, Hinduism’s main “survival strategy” seems to be that of absorbing other belief systems, transmuting them into aspects of itself – Siddhartha Gautama became an avatar of Vishnu, the Virgin Mary was identified with Devi, Parsees became seen as in effect just another caste-group – so your mother’s response seems quite in keeping with tradition!
In an interesting counterpoint to your own experience, it seems to be a fairly common theme in these posts that someone brought up in a fundamentalist household hardly even realises that there are different religions, and different forms of Christianity, and the shock of first exposure to them starts the process of questioning that ends in atheism.
Louissays
Rajesh,
I’ve always thought that exposure to multiple religions at a reasonable level of depth was one of the more frequent routes to atheism.
My wife’s family are Indian (Punjabi Sikhs predominantly) and, although anecdote =/= data, the more atheist/secular members of her family are those who grew up in the multi-religion regions of India as opposed to almost exclusively Sikh areas.
By the way, this:
The final straw came one summer when I was 12 years old. Inspired by Gandhi’s book “My Experiments With Truth,” I decided to “experiment” and stop praying. I was fully prepared to face any results – after all 8th grade final exams were already over and I had done ok, so what could possibly go so terribly wrong before the next exams?! So I just stopped praying one day. Needless to say, the course of the universe did not change one bit. And I’ve done reasonably well in all exams since, to boot! QED!
Made me chuckle. Nice work!
There’s a Christian aphorism that “god helps those who help themselves” which is simply one enormous get out clause/special plead. Passing the credit for one’s own efforts onto the nebulous deity. I see you discovered the truth early on: two hands clasped in prayer achieve nothing, two hands put to work can move the world.
Good on ya! ;-)
Louis
Louissays
Oh and if you’re curious, Rajesh,
Yes I’ve been to India and yes I speak a decent amount of Punjabi reasonably well. Although I can’t read it yet. I’ve been to India a few times, there’s a little dhaba between Delhi and Agra I am certain does the best paratha in the world.* Although it might have been because it was the first place we went to after we got off the plane!
Louis
* Mummyji forgives me for this attribution. She says the water in England isn’t right and she can’t get buffalo butter!
Catnip, Not a Polymathsays
“I have learned to think for myself”=/=”I am adult”
Well done Rajesh, for achieving the left hand side ahead of the right hand side.
Also, enjoyed reading the expansion.
Catnip, Not a Polymathsays
Oops! My eye fell out.
*feels about on the floor*
*knocks eye rolling under a chair*
*catches the little blighter & pops it back in*
Also, I enjoyed reading the expansion.
rajeshshenoysays
Hinduism’s main “survival strategy” seems to be that of absorbing other belief systems, transmuting them into aspects of itself
@KG Even after years of reading, I still don’t cease to be amazed by the sheer tenacity of this conglomeration of beliefs and philosophical systems (it’s not a single religion is the strict sense). For those interested, a good online resource is nirmukta.com, a top Indian freethought site. Perhaps this has to do with the very nature of the society, which has had to absorb several waves of immigrants and invaders over several millenniums.
I’ve been to India a few times, there’s a little dhaba between Delhi and Agra I am certain does the best paratha in the world.*
@Louis Good to hear that! Although, I should admit I wouldn’t know much about parathas. South Indian (where I’m from) food is predominantly rice based. Do visit the south next time you’re in India – I can take you to the place where they make the best idlis in the world!
jimvjsays
Winterwind (#34):
Tongue, cheek, and their juxtaposition!
Stop taking everything so seriously!
frankbsays
Ing #50 OK, that makes sense now.
kemist, Dark Lord of the Sithsays
South Indian (where I’m from) food is predominantly rice based. Do visit the south next time you’re in India – I can take you to the place where they make the best idlis in the world!
There’s a Christian aphorism that “god helps those who help themselves”
Actually, it’s not Christian at all. It’s Ancient Roman: fortuna audaces adiuvat – fate, commonly personified as a goddess, helps the brave ones. The original Christian attitude is more like “you can’t help yourself, only God can help you”.
Louissays
David,
I stand very happily corrected!
Louis
KGsays
*Drools* – kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith
Yes, I like South Indian cuisine. I’ve never visited India – hope to some day – and most of the Indian resturants in UK are run by Bengalis and don’t attempt the South Indian dishes. However, there are some excellent South Indian restaurants in London, my favourite being the vegetarian Diwana Bhel Poori House near Euston Station.
Wait, people actually like idlis and dhosas? I eat them now, but when I was a kid I always disliked them because I thought they were extremely plain and boring (yes, I know you eat them with sambar and chutney and stuff. But still. I mean, roti canai and paratha taste good even on their own). I love my mum’s lamb and chicken curries… too bad I don’t eat meat any more.
David Marjanovic:
I’ve heard “Fortune Favours the Bold,” but does “God helps those who help themselves” definitely have the same origin? I can see how it might. Interesting.
jimvj:
All right, I should have had tongue-in-cheek detector mode on. Despite appearances to the contrary, I actually have a fun and overactive sense of humour. I take some things seriously because they’re serious!
The original Christian attitude is more like “you can’t help yourself, only God can help you”.
Well, it didn’t stay that way for long. Christians are all over “God helps those who help themselves” like flies on shit. At least here in the States. Been that way for a long, long, long time.
One person had told me that “God Helps those who helps themselves” was originally a nasty jab at Puritans and other people waiting for God to deliver blessings to them.
'Tis Himselfsays
Benjamin Franklin used “God helps those who help themselves” as an aphorism in Poor Richard’s Almanac and attributed the phrase to English essayist Algernon Sidney.
rajeshshenoysays
Christians are all over “God helps those who help themselves” like flies on shit.
*Recovering from the very “illustrative” analogy in a thread that was veering towards a discussion on South Indian cuisine and delicacies*
At least in the Indian context, that sounds like a phrase that’d be used by closet atheists or weak faithists who’re into religion mainly for the cultural and social aspects of it. It’d signify a weak faith since it suggests you to not really rely on prayer and its efficacy. Why would true believers use it? It only makes their god less powerful. Or am I missing something here? Or – and this is more likely – is it too much for their level of understanding, and they just get entranced by any sentence with the word “god” followed by a verb?
Holmssays
@45
I only spoke for myself, your thoughts are clearly different, but that is how a single line ‘explanation’ strikes me: glib.
Perhaps the easiest way of describing why is that an atheist and a theist could use that same line in order to explain their atheism / theism. How many theists will ever say that they are religious because they can’t think for themselves? Zero. They will all say that they too can think for themselves as well. The only way to ascertain the differences in meaning and supporting logic is to follow the premise further.
I am certainly not saying that every submission needs to meet a minimum length, only that I find it underwhelming if there is no argument present.
As a direct example of this, my first reply was a mere statement with no explanation, while this one elaborates on the initial point somewhat. Which one is more satisfactory as an explanation of my thought process?
Better still, Rajesh’s own elaboration on his initial statement.
@47
Most likely for the same reason that you decided take the time to whine about my whine.
Catnip, Misogynist Troglodyte called Brucesays
Rajesh,my mother used to use the phrase in that way. Sort of a disparaging way of dismissing Xians who were relying on prayer to improve their lives. Although she was more of a deist at the time (I learned later) and now tending towards atheism (or she is pandering to me :-) )
mucklededunsays
“The Lord helps those who help themselves” was always the signal to start passing the mashed potatoes & gravy, when I was growing up.
kemist, Dark Lord of the Sithsays
Wait, people actually like idlis and dhosas? I eat them now, but when I was a kid I always disliked them because I thought they were extremely plain and boring
You would need to meet my south indian friend (and part-time personal chef) then.
He makes drool-worthy masala dhosas.
Not that I don’t like ghobi or methi parathas. I’ve even learned to make them, and given lessons to some of my indian friends. They often joke that I must have been an indian in one of my past lives.
I’ve never visited India – hope to some day – and most of the Indian resturants in UK are run by Bengalis and don’t attempt the South Indian dishes.
Likewise for wanting to visit India someday. I’m sad that it won’t be with my best friend (a Bengali) who died from cancer last summer. We were always making plans to go, but at that time I didn’t have the money.
We don’t get much authentic indian food here in Canada – at least in Quebec. It’s a bit different if you go around Toronto, or a bit surprisingly, Kelowna BC, where there is a good-sized Punjabi community.
What I’ve tasted is what my friends cook, and what I’ve learned to cook from them. And most of my friends are either Bengali or Bengladeshi, so I’ve learned to appreciate Bengali food too.
Well except for kerelas.
Browniansays
Or – and this is more likely – is it too much for their level of understanding, and they just get entranced by any sentence with the word “god” followed by a verb?
LOL. For some this is clearly the case. Sometimes I’d like to see Pew or another survey group take on I e of these bits of lay doctrine. Find out how much consistency there is in what real folks understand to be the meaning of these folksy bits of ‘wisdom’.
Browniansays
He makes drool-worthy masala dhosas.
My town suffers from the same dearth of South Indian cuisine mentioned in the UK above. For a long while, there was only one place in the city that served masala dhosa, though a quick Googling turns up a few more now.
Screeeeee……!! That’s meeeeeeeeeeee…..!!!
A happy person, heartwarming.
Short, sweet, and directly on point. Well done, Rajesh!
Nicely said. Short and sweet. Just like i like.
Thanks! I’m sure this website’ll appear to be a lot faster now – I’ve been refreshing it furiously in my browser for the last couple weeks just to see if PZ’s posted my email! So you can imagine my delight now…!
Thanks a lot! I believe, at the end of any tedious trials and tribulations each of us might have to go through (or not) (sharing of which is what this series of “Why I am an atheist” posts is designed for), THAT is the one final necessary step each person HAS to take, in order to become an atheist. It is the essence of Freethinking – a necessary condition to becoming an atheist of the sort PZ represents.
Not succinct enough.
Amen!
I’m waiting for the Pharyngula echo-chamber to begin their chanting like they did to this guy.
Don’t worry if they do, Rajesh, you’re still a king…
Thanks for the heads up, Porco. Bracing myself up here.
BTW, ‘Raj’ means king. ‘Rajesh’ means ‘god-king’ … oops … *whimpers away*
@Porco Dio
Yeah, because criticizing someone is what people do in echo chambers. /
So, would that make you the god of kings or the king of gods?
Anyway, porco dio means pig god… Italian slang…. oink.
Porco Dio:
I am a native Hindi speaker, and I think “Rajesh” can be either “king of kings” or “master of kings” or with some linguistic stretching, “god of kings”, but not “king of gods”.
Nah, criticism (in my case) is what makes you a troll and a thread derailer according to the flock of regulars here…
Bleating like a Bleu du Maine just to gussy up you mate’s opinion is what you do in an echo chamber. Just like they did in Grhams thread.
Porco Dio,
It couldn’t be that your “criticism” isn’t very cogent or coherent could it?
Louis
@Porco Dio:
u mad because we don’t love you.
Nah. Porco’s just showing us how you win friends and influence people. He’s very good at it, he keeps telling us.
Brownian,
I’ve always found Porco’s criticism to be insightful and trenchant and not at all troll-ish…
…no…wait…it’s the opposite thing isn’t it? Bugger I always mix those two up.
Louis
Actually, showing up at a website with the intent of provoking arguments is the definition of trolling, everywhere.
Claiming that you’re the hapless victim of terrible groupthink places you among the vast majority of uninteresting trolls.
Claiming that you’re actually here to provide much needed, thoughful criticism places you in the company of dishonest, uninteresting trolls.
Your belief that despite your dishonest, uninteresting trollishness you’ve actually got insight into communication strategies that most of us here lack makes you a spectacularly self-deluded, dishonest, uninteresting troll.
It’s okay. So does Porco. I guess that makes you special and important.
Brownian,
Special and important? That’s what my mummy tells me is the case.
Louis
Trolling:
Examples in italics.
Hmm. Not just “according to the flock of regulars here”.
So it would seem that it’s not actually the case that Porco’s the innocent victim of a smear campaign by the specific commentors here.
Oh, that’s unfair, Brownian. After all, he was forced to come here and . . . .
What? He wasn’t?
Well, he’s being forced to stay here and . . . .
Oh.
Erm, what the hell?
Until now I’ve resisted the temptation to give my own reason Why I Am an Atheist: Because, brain!
@Brownian #21
If you think that my “echo-chamber” comment was inflammatory you need to grow a few and check out all the “fuck you’s” and other stupidities that get handed out here. IIRC the rules of this forum state something like people here are not polite etc.
If you think that referencing the “because I’m an adult” theme of Grahams post was OT because this post is pretty much the same then you are not as pseudo-intellectual as you think you are.
Therefore your argument of trolling doesn’t hold water.
I, for one, compliment Rajesh on his stance. After all, India is a mire of problems ranging from corruption to castes to religious inanity. So three cheers to anyone who can rise above that.
And I’m wondering where the pseudo-intellectual consistency is in not pointing out that this is the same non sequitur that Graham made. Either that or I am wondering why those who don’t agree with the assault on Graham don’t defend him in the comments but rather just silently pass over the idiocy of their flock.
Let Rajesh have a warm moment in the spotlight. If you want something interesting to discuss go to the other thread where I’ve taken a stance on Australian racism.
Well said!
My favorite Hindu name is “Mahalingam”. Translated literally it means “great phallus” or “great phallic symbol”.
Hindus, of course, will take the fun out of the name with protestations that it is in honor of Lord Shiva, blah, blah …
Ah, Porco. Nothing says “I am not a troll” like jumping in with a comment that preemptively dismisses criticism by insisting that the commenters to follow are incapable of forming their own opinions.
I congratulate Rajesh on learning to form his own opinions and think for himself. Enjoy your warm moment in the spotlight.
As for Porco, enjoy your warm moment wallowing in your own goo.
No, you don’t get to play that card now.
Or were people not supposed to respond to your opening comment, which was: “I’m waiting for the Pharyngula echo-chamber to begin their chanting like they did to this guy“?
Because that’s all I’m doing: responding to that opening comment of yours, which was not about Rajesh’s post, but the people here and your problem with them and their responses to another post. Are you asking people not to feed the troll by not responding?
So now you’re upset that people aren’t jumping on him? Not being consistent in your eyes? “C’mon guys: it’s inconsistent for you to let Rajesh have his warm moment in the sun when you didn’t do so for Graham, and I really want to chastise you all for not letting Rajesh have his warm moment in the sun.”
You’ve made this about something other than Rajesh’s post. If you were concerned that this discussion would not be about Rajesh’s post, then you should not have written in your opening comment, “I’m waiting for the Pharyngula echo-chamber to begin their chanting like they did to this guy“, which again, is instead about other people on other threads.
Ah. In context, you clearly are asking people not to respond to your derail, and in effect, not feed the troll.
“Since you didn’t jump on Rajesh as I expected you to, I’ll instead chastise you for responding to my opening comment, and invite you to converse with me elsewhere and leave this thread for Rajesh bask in his glory.”
If you were an honest person who wrote what he meant, you would have waited until someone actually did jump on Rajesh’s post before defending it. There are many regular commentors here who started out with similar trollish behaviour. Over time, they learned to treat with the post at hand, responding to issues as they arise, rather than pre-emptively using the post as a convenient whetstone upon which to grind their axe with the community itself.
But, given your responses to the responses to your opening comment here, as well as on other threads, I have justifiable doubt that you’ll ever do that. Feel free to search this site: I have rarely, if ever, asked PZ for the banhammer. But I’m doing so now, because you’re either fundamentally dishonest or incapable of writing what you actually mean, and either way you bring nothing to the table. It’s time for you to find a more productive way of spending your time.
Rajesh, your excitement over having PZ post your WIAAA is adorable. I’m happy for you. And I apologise for participating in Porco Dio’s derail.
rajeshshenoy:
Yes, it is! Exciting, ennit? I appreciate your brevity and here’s to always learning and always thinking and loving it. *clink*
“Learning to think for yourself” is not trivial, because it involves letting go of your trust in figures such as parents and priests, and other authority figures.
I like the brevity of the post, and the resonances it sets up.
echidna:
No, it isn’t. Not in the least. A great many people go their whole life without learning to think for themselves. There are days when I’m tempted to think it’s close to a lost art.
Which just goes to show that you didn’t bother to read my objection at all. This one is not a non-sequitor or promote the annoying view of the ubbermesh atheist
Considering I was the person to dislike Graham’s comment (and his attitude) you could have at least waited to see if I commented to see if I disagreed or not.
Graham’s statement was snide and belittling, equivalent to “because I’M not an idiot”. This one shares some elements in that it isn’t very insightful but doesn’t get into the whole “theists are teh dumb” atheist trope that I hate.
Tell you what, why don’t you figure out what you’re actually thinking and then get back to us? We can put this on hold for a few months. Jackass
@Porco Dio #24:
Hmm? I’m sure Rajesh is against all three, but why assume that an Indian atheist is automatically against caste discrimination or corruption? Since racism, sexism and other cultural prejudices exist among Western atheists, there is no reason to assume that Indian atheists would be free from their own cultural prejudices (though I’m sure many of them are).
Conversely, why assume or imply that religious Hindus are in favour of caste discrimination? My parents are quasi-religious Hindus and wouldn’t even tell me what “caste” the two sides of my family were until I asked them when I was 17. (Originally they claimed they didn’t know because everyone forgot their jatis when they moved from India to Malaysia). Rajesh doesn’t have that luxury, because he has one of those surnames that tell people exactly what his ancestors did… though I’m sure he doesn’t care.
Don’t you think it’s a little patronising to give three special little cheers to an Indian person for being a decent human being and supporting universal rights? Are you unaware that most educated Indians are against corruption and caste discrimination, at least nominally, regardless of their religiosity?
By the way, I give you three cheers for rising above the racist anti-immigration rhetoric bogging down Italy at the moment (assuming you do rise above it).
@jimv #25
Yeah, don’t you just hate it when people take the fun out of you mocking their culture by, like, putting things in context and stuff? Because I hate that.
#ignorantforeignerstalkingshitaboutdesis
I agree with 27, 32, 33. What is it with this moronic Porco douche. Though s/he may have reached the Graham level of existence, I really don’t think s/he’s on par with Rajesh’ yet. Is the difference so difficult to grasp? I don’t think so.
Rajesh, I think you nailed it. It really is the difference.
@Benkvi
He’s a troll. He does shit like this in every thread. Every post of his can be reduced to “OH YEAH!? OH YEAH!?”
Of course this is the same non sequitur.
St Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Ken Miller, Francis Collins… They could all think for themselves…
Exactly the same non sequitur.
When Graham mentioned “adult” I thought of the word in the context it was taught to me as a kid. “Transactional Analysis” is what I grew up with and those are the terms with which I understand the word “adult”…. with the PAC model.
The cassette tape “T.A. For Tots and Other Prinzes” wore itself out in my home… google it… gives me warm fuzzies just thinking about it…
And cold pricklies reading your nonsense is what I get.
No need to “wait for your response” in this thread. The rest of the echo-chamber has been around to call this out in the same way they (you) called Graham out.
But nobody called Rajesh on this because his argument is fine…, just as Graham’s argument is fine.
It’s just the echo-chamber that needs to be retuned.
That is all.
@Porco
Fucking idiot.
To give wittle baby Porco his bottle. What I said about the thread he linked. Anyone can judge for themselves if it applies here. *eye roll&*
Oh Rajesh, now you’re supposed to get mad at me so we can fight and Porco can get a boner
So you know irony at least. Though you owe me an apology for the hard facepalm.
@Porco:
Then you must realise you’re playing a game here, right? Or do you just remember the PAC terminology and the long words from the cassette label?
Porco Dio, unoriginal boring troll,
Eight hours later, still no “chanting” from the “echo-chamber” denouncing Rajesh’s Why I am an Atheist post, yet Porco “farts for brains” Dio doubles down,
Yep, the Pharyngula “echo-chamber” was around. Yet your idiotic prediction did not come true. It seems that there are nuances to be found between Graham and Rajesh’s statements.
Fuck off you stupid troll.
Meh, Brownian already described you perfectly, I don’t know why I am bothering. Porco, if you feel the urge to post again, just reread the following over and over until that desire subsides.
Eat shit Porco
@8 Porco:
…Six people? SHOCKING!
Anyway the fact remains that these extremely glib answers are uninteresting to me (and perhaps others), as they tell me nothing about the mental process. An explanation that explains nothing is useless.
I am looking at Ing’s comment #32 and his comment #38.
Comment #32
Comment #38
Ing appears to be quoting himself and attributing it to Porco. Am I missing something here?
Holms,
I don’t see Rajesh’s response as necessarily shallow, superficial, or flippant. Thinking for one’s self, discarding dogma and presumed authority, these do actually lead one to atheism. Do not equivocate concise with glib.
If I were to have submitted a WIAA response, it would be something along the lines of:
“Because atheism is a natural consequence of skeptical thinking”.
I don’t see mine and Rajesh’s response as very dissimilar. “Think for yourself”, it is a short and sweet message. It also gets at a substantial truth.
frankb:
Just all the piles of shit everywhere. I wouldn’t go looking at them too closely. It’s absolutely shameful, the behaviour in this thread.
Holms:
Then why in the fuck are you taking the time to comment on something which doesn’t interest you? Did you think your whine is all that important?
Besides, what Rajesh said? Not glib at all. See my comments at #28 and #30.
This. You are a disgrace Porco. Can’t you let a joyful expression of someone’s reasons for being an atheist stand without forcing the discussion to your conspiracy views about Pharyngula being an “echo-chamber”?
QFT
Humans being the social animals that we are, and brain development in human children being what it is, “learning to think for yourself” is a delusion. Learning to think like other rational humans is, however, a possibility even though the learning curve appears somewhat steep.
Because Porco quoted the first part of my comment, criticized me for stuff that was addressed in the second part which I quoted.
Whoa! I just retired to catch some shut-eye overnight in my time-zone, and this thread has flared up to 50 comments!
@All Thanks a lot for a very interesting discussion! I’ve seen quite some support and good will expressed for me – can’t be thankful enough for this! Other discussions here I know are carry-forwards from previous threads (and will in all likelihood continue in future threads). Great to see the fiercely independent viewpoints exchanged – I can clearly see why PZ is so proud of this fierce crowd!
Love y’all!
Awesome Rajesh. Love back!
Good on you, Rajesh. You keep thinking for yourself. It’s the only way to go.
Rajesh,
If you’re still around, I’d be interested to hear more detail about how you learned to think for yourself. Most of the atheists around here had a Christian cultural background (even if their parents were non-Christians, most were brought up in a predominantly Christian culture), so it’s good to get some atheist viewpoints from outwith that context.
I wonder if upbringing in a quasi-religion like TA tends to produce trolls. Certainly in porco dio we have an unusually pure specimen; xe quite evidently has no purpose here other than to provoke, annoy and denigrate.
@KG Thanks for your interest. I was brought up in a predominantly secular society. BUT, secularism in India is defined and meant (right in the Constitution itself) very differently from what it means in the West. It is not “absence of religion,” but “equal respect for all religions.” So my “secular” upbringing meant that I followed Hindu traditions at home, attended a private Catholic convent school (run by nuns, complete with “Moral Science” classes every week and a voluntary visit to a Chapel in the school premises every day or so with friends), and had mostly Muslim friends (since our house was located in a Muslim area).
You can imagine in such an environment, there’s no dearth of exposure to innumerable no. of religious ideas, beliefs, books, discussions, practices, etc. Thinking back now, it was pretty clear to me early on that there were several contradictions among the various religions. When I once asked mom, I remember her answering that there were no conflicts, and that it’s just our understanding that was incomplete, and by the way have you completed your homework, and if so maybe you should go and revise again :) You know how evasive theists need to be.
Another factor which played a major role was access to Carl Sagan’s books and a complete set of encyclopedia during the summer vacations I’d spend at an aunt’s place. I remember I used to spend weeks on the sofa with the books, and my aunt would get worried. This really opened up my mind to the wonderful natural world out there. Carl Sagan’s sharp logical analytical thinking definitely re-wired my brain for life.
The final straw came one summer when I was 12 years old. Inspired by Gandhi’s book “My Experiments With Truth,” I decided to “experiment” and stop praying. I was fully prepared to face any results – after all 8th grade final exams were already over and I had done ok, so what could possibly go so terribly wrong before the next exams?! So I just stopped praying one day. Needless to say, the course of the universe did not change one bit. And I’ve done reasonably well in all exams since, to boot! QED!
Rajesh,
Thanks – in fact, “secular” also has that meaning in the west, although it is often used in the sense of “non-religious”. I can understand that being exposed from a young age to multiple religions might predispose you to question all of them, although clearly many who are so exposed do not. From the little I know of Indian history, Hinduism’s main “survival strategy” seems to be that of absorbing other belief systems, transmuting them into aspects of itself – Siddhartha Gautama became an avatar of Vishnu, the Virgin Mary was identified with Devi, Parsees became seen as in effect just another caste-group – so your mother’s response seems quite in keeping with tradition!
In an interesting counterpoint to your own experience, it seems to be a fairly common theme in these posts that someone brought up in a fundamentalist household hardly even realises that there are different religions, and different forms of Christianity, and the shock of first exposure to them starts the process of questioning that ends in atheism.
Rajesh,
I’ve always thought that exposure to multiple religions at a reasonable level of depth was one of the more frequent routes to atheism.
My wife’s family are Indian (Punjabi Sikhs predominantly) and, although anecdote =/= data, the more atheist/secular members of her family are those who grew up in the multi-religion regions of India as opposed to almost exclusively Sikh areas.
By the way, this:
Made me chuckle. Nice work!
There’s a Christian aphorism that “god helps those who help themselves” which is simply one enormous get out clause/special plead. Passing the credit for one’s own efforts onto the nebulous deity. I see you discovered the truth early on: two hands clasped in prayer achieve nothing, two hands put to work can move the world.
Good on ya! ;-)
Louis
Oh and if you’re curious, Rajesh,
Yes I’ve been to India and yes I speak a decent amount of Punjabi reasonably well. Although I can’t read it yet. I’ve been to India a few times, there’s a little dhaba between Delhi and Agra I am certain does the best paratha in the world.* Although it might have been because it was the first place we went to after we got off the plane!
Louis
* Mummyji forgives me for this attribution. She says the water in England isn’t right and she can’t get buffalo butter!
“I have learned to think for myself”=/=”I am adult”
Well done Rajesh, for achieving the left hand side ahead of the right hand side.
Also, enjoyed reading the expansion.
Oops! My eye fell out.
*feels about on the floor*
*knocks eye rolling under a chair*
*catches the little blighter & pops it back in*
Also, I enjoyed reading the expansion.
@KG Even after years of reading, I still don’t cease to be amazed by the sheer tenacity of this conglomeration of beliefs and philosophical systems (it’s not a single religion is the strict sense). For those interested, a good online resource is nirmukta.com, a top Indian freethought site. Perhaps this has to do with the very nature of the society, which has had to absorb several waves of immigrants and invaders over several millenniums.
@Louis Good to hear that! Although, I should admit I wouldn’t know much about parathas. South Indian (where I’m from) food is predominantly rice based. Do visit the south next time you’re in India – I can take you to the place where they make the best idlis in the world!
Winterwind (#34):
Tongue, cheek, and their juxtaposition!
Stop taking everything so seriously!
Ing #50 OK, that makes sense now.
*Drools*
Idlis, haven’t had those in a while.
And dhosas with sambhar.
Transactional analysis strikes me as pseudoscience.
Actually, it’s not Christian at all. It’s Ancient Roman: fortuna audaces adiuvat – fate, commonly personified as a goddess, helps the brave ones. The original Christian attitude is more like “you can’t help yourself, only God can help you”.
David,
I stand very happily corrected!
Louis
Yes, I like South Indian cuisine. I’ve never visited India – hope to some day – and most of the Indian resturants in UK are run by Bengalis and don’t attempt the South Indian dishes. However, there are some excellent South Indian restaurants in London, my favourite being the vegetarian Diwana Bhel Poori House near Euston Station.
Wait, people actually like idlis and dhosas? I eat them now, but when I was a kid I always disliked them because I thought they were extremely plain and boring (yes, I know you eat them with sambar and chutney and stuff. But still. I mean, roti canai and paratha taste good even on their own). I love my mum’s lamb and chicken curries… too bad I don’t eat meat any more.
David Marjanovic:
I’ve heard “Fortune Favours the Bold,” but does “God helps those who help themselves” definitely have the same origin? I can see how it might. Interesting.
jimvj:
All right, I should have had tongue-in-cheek detector mode on. Despite appearances to the contrary, I actually have a fun and overactive sense of humour. I take some things seriously because they’re serious!
David:
Well, it didn’t stay that way for long. Christians are all over “God helps those who help themselves” like flies on shit. At least here in the States. Been that way for a long, long, long time.
One person had told me that “God Helps those who helps themselves” was originally a nasty jab at Puritans and other people waiting for God to deliver blessings to them.
Benjamin Franklin used “God helps those who help themselves” as an aphorism in Poor Richard’s Almanac and attributed the phrase to English essayist Algernon Sidney.
*Recovering from the very “illustrative” analogy in a thread that was veering towards a discussion on South Indian cuisine and delicacies*
At least in the Indian context, that sounds like a phrase that’d be used by closet atheists or weak faithists who’re into religion mainly for the cultural and social aspects of it. It’d signify a weak faith since it suggests you to not really rely on prayer and its efficacy. Why would true believers use it? It only makes their god less powerful. Or am I missing something here? Or – and this is more likely – is it too much for their level of understanding, and they just get entranced by any sentence with the word “god” followed by a verb?
@45
I only spoke for myself, your thoughts are clearly different, but that is how a single line ‘explanation’ strikes me: glib.
Perhaps the easiest way of describing why is that an atheist and a theist could use that same line in order to explain their atheism / theism. How many theists will ever say that they are religious because they can’t think for themselves? Zero. They will all say that they too can think for themselves as well. The only way to ascertain the differences in meaning and supporting logic is to follow the premise further.
I am certainly not saying that every submission needs to meet a minimum length, only that I find it underwhelming if there is no argument present.
As a direct example of this, my first reply was a mere statement with no explanation, while this one elaborates on the initial point somewhat. Which one is more satisfactory as an explanation of my thought process?
Better still, Rajesh’s own elaboration on his initial statement.
@47
Most likely for the same reason that you decided take the time to whine about my whine.
Rajesh,my mother used to use the phrase in that way. Sort of a disparaging way of dismissing Xians who were relying on prayer to improve their lives. Although she was more of a deist at the time (I learned later) and now tending towards atheism (or she is pandering to me :-) )
“The Lord helps those who help themselves” was always the signal to start passing the mashed potatoes & gravy, when I was growing up.
You would need to meet my south indian friend (and part-time personal chef) then.
He makes drool-worthy masala dhosas.
Not that I don’t like ghobi or methi parathas. I’ve even learned to make them, and given lessons to some of my indian friends. They often joke that I must have been an indian in one of my past lives.
Likewise for wanting to visit India someday. I’m sad that it won’t be with my best friend (a Bengali) who died from cancer last summer. We were always making plans to go, but at that time I didn’t have the money.
We don’t get much authentic indian food here in Canada – at least in Quebec. It’s a bit different if you go around Toronto, or a bit surprisingly, Kelowna BC, where there is a good-sized Punjabi community.
What I’ve tasted is what my friends cook, and what I’ve learned to cook from them. And most of my friends are either Bengali or Bengladeshi, so I’ve learned to appreciate Bengali food too.
Well except for kerelas.
LOL. For some this is clearly the case. Sometimes I’d like to see Pew or another survey group take on I e of these bits of lay doctrine. Find out how much consistency there is in what real folks understand to be the meaning of these folksy bits of ‘wisdom’.
My town suffers from the same dearth of South Indian cuisine mentioned in the UK above. For a long while, there was only one place in the city that served masala dhosa, though a quick Googling turns up a few more now.