Happy Birthday, PZ
Happy Monkey all around.
Best wishes to your mother (I think that’s always appropriate if you think about how they usually spend the very first birthday of their children)
mastmakersays
Forwarded from the end of previous endless thread:
Folks, please guide me here.
Being an atheist of 20+ years, I rarely have to debate anybody about God, faith and other stuff. Recently, I was forced to debate a colleague around the proverbial water cooler.
He belongs to one of the three major world religions. He criticized the other two (one of which is my erstwhile religion) while I am too polite to say to his face what I think of HIS religion.
I talked of American conservatives using Abortion rights and Contraceptives as a way to keep the women in control, and he said if someone thinks the the child she is pregnant with is one too many mouths to feed, she might as well kill one her other children, rather than the terminate the pregnancy.
I have a few questions here:
How do you debate a colleague/friend/acquaintance of faith other than your original faith (i.e. the one that you belonged to before you became an atheist) without seeming to be attacking their religion. This is one of the main reasons I refrain from criticizing someone’s religion. This is not a very effective tactic.
When amateur debaters like us start talking about something, we are forced into positions where we are defending whatever the other person WANTS US TO DEFEND! For example, when we defend abortion RIGHTS, we are instead forced to defend ABORTION itself. I DID NOT talk about abortions with coat hangers when they make it illegal, which is what our position is. We do not defend abortion, we just defend the sad truth that abortion will occur dangerously and often fatally when they are forced underground.
How do you make them realize the irony that they are simultaneously (a) opposing the minority persecution in places where they are minority and (b) supporting the majority rule where they are a majority and (c) supporting the oppression by conversatives in the countries where they are a minority, just because they are conservatives themselves?
mastmakersays
Forgot again. Happy Birthday, PZ. Chug one for me.
Mattirsays
The “no victims only volunteers” is useful only crudely, when one is experiencing the “falling in the same hole over and over again” problem, and only for the individual experiencing the problem to figure out how to live so as not to fall in that hole again. So I’ve found it useful – I no longer try to accommodate theists so as to find “common ground” once they have demonstrated a complete lack of respect for my beliefs. I don’t tolerate dangerous/abusive people because they wouldn’t be so dangerous/abusive if I were quieter/thinner/prettier/harder working/whatever. I don’t stay in helping relationships where I end up feeling manipulated or used.
What I don’t do is label other people as victims or volunteers based on my desire to avoid feeling the pain of their situation. Victim blaming is a pretty consistent theme in our culture, and I hate seeing it so close to home.
Jesus, that XKCD thread is a trainwreck. One person suggests that a would-be PUA “actually step outside [his] own head for ten minutes and try some basic empathy.” The response: “It’s hard to teach a hungry tiger empathy for their prey.”
Mastmaker, first of all, we should defend abortion. There is nothing wrong with it at all. Pretending that there is concedes ground to the forced-birthers. The “safe, legal, and rare” rhetoric has done the cause of reproductive rights a great deal of damage.
As for your co-worker, he shouldn’t be bringing religious debates into the workplace. Given the amount of prejudice against atheists and the awfulness of the job market, I would not let myself be drawn into such a debate. Just change the subject, and, if pressed, say, “I would rather not talk about religion or politics at work.” That’s not accommodationism; that’s self-preservation.
Richard Austinsays
How do you debate a colleague/friend/acquaintance of faith other than your original faith (i.e. the one that you belonged to before you became an atheist) without seeming to be attacking their religion. This is one of the main reasons I refrain from criticizing someone’s religion. This is not a very effective tactic.
Uhm. Actually, for many of us here, that’s the ideal tactic. You can’t substantially debate a position held only on religious principles without attacking the religion on which said position is based (unless the person even gets the principles wrong, in which case you could argue “you’re not even consistent with your own beliefs”). If you’re ceding that ground at the start – that religion is unassailable – you’re giving them the “win” before you even fire a shot.
But, if you insist, a good way to start (if you’re uncomfortable with direct attacks on beliefs) is attacking the default framing and assumptions. For instance:
if someone thinks the the child she is pregnant with
… is a place to start. For most of the time a woman is pregnant (and all of the time an abortion is legally electable), it’s not a child in any recognizable sense. Attack that point, and your opponent is now in the position of defending calling a bunch of cells a human being, which is indefensible from a lot of angles (cancer tumors are usually an easy one).
Further, call out the fact that your opponent is changing the argument (such as from advocating for the right to choose to advocating for abortions). Force them to stay on a topic rather than shifting the goalposts every time they start to lose a point.
I think there’s a list of points and counterpoints on the pharyngula wiki (which I can never remember the link for). But I’m sure others who are better at this sort of thing will give you more.
“Now, it has taken all these years for many Americans to understand that that gravity, that mistake, took place before the Civil War and why the Civil War had to really start changing America. What Barack Obama seems to want to do is go back to before those days when we were in different classes based on income, based on color of skin.”
lol wut
mastmakersays
Thanks, Richard. Those are wonderful starting points.
I forgot to mention that things were made more complicated with incessant diatribe from a person who thought he was defending me with his incoherent utterings. I literally couldn’t hear myself think amid the cacophony!
How do you debate a colleague/friend/acquaintance of faith other than your original faith (i.e. the one that you belonged to before you became an atheist) without seeming to be attacking their religion.
You can’t.
Furthermore you actually can’t argue most people into positions rationally that they do not hold for rational reasons. You would have to first use emotional argumentation to convince them of the value of the rationality.
Psych-Ohsays
Happy Birthday, PZ!!!
Janine – I can’t take any more wingnuttery today. I am so tired of the crazies.
Can I ask why Dispatches From the Culture war feels the need to bash liberals when it comes to the Koch brothers? WTF? Did I miss something?
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Horde, I am disappoint in myself.
The day before yesterday, it was a glorious 60 degrees and sunny. Yesterday it was 50 and rainy. Today, I glanced out the window, saw that it was sunny, and left for work in my windbreaker. It was maybe 45, not too bad for 8 am.
Well, now it is fucking 30 and snowing fucking sideways.
And all I have is my windbreaker.
___
I also have a conundrum. Next weekend, I’m driving to NE Ohio to see my grandma for her [big round number] birthday. My grandma’s a hoot and I love her lots (seriously, snarky octogenarian nonagenarian ladies with Ph.D.s rock). She’s an avowed secularist (back in the 50’s she made waves by getting publicly pissy about school prayer), not an atheist, but a secularist. Okay, whatever. Well, here are two issues: firstly, she knows about “new atheism” (i.e. non accommodationalist) and doesn’t like it, because “they’re telling me how to live.” I’m willing to avoid the topic for a few days, but for the second issue:
She’s invited me to come to church with her.
Adding to my discomfort, it seems that a few months ago the assistant pastor was arrested for having child porn on his computer. The church has rallied to present a united front against the creep (GOOD) but is also apparently in deep denial about the possibility that he did anything to any of the kids in the church (I don’t know if there’s evidence, and obviously I hope he didn’t, but this denial is BAD).
So, uh…?
Do I keep my mouth shut and go to church, or do I potentially pick a fight with my grandma, who, like I said, is a generally awesome person that I think a lot of?
ibyeasays
I always thought that the wingnuts were on the Confederacy’s side, what with the whole “state rights” crap they spout. But whatever makes them happy.
Well, here are two issues: firstly, she knows about “new atheism” (i.e. non accommodationalist) and doesn’t like it, because “they’re telling me how to live.” I’m willing to avoid the topic for a few days, but for the second issue:
She’s invited me to come to church with her.
….
Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmm… by any chance would pointing this out here cause an argument or defuse it and allow a polite rejection?
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Ing, I have to admit I was halfway sorta planning to “suddenly” realize sunday morning that I need to get on the road because there is Something I Must Do that has a time limit on it.
If by asking if “pointing this out here,” are you referring to my comment itself? She doesn’t read the blog, I can guarantee that. She barely knows how to use email.
ibyeasays
@Ing
Yeah, why does being principled give them a free pass when their principles suck?
By pointing out I meant that she doesn’t like people telling her how to live, but is asking you to go to church. Would pointing out that you’d rather not attend a sermon like that but would meet her for food or something after-wards work?
juliansays
@Esteleth
Let her know you’re an atheist and that you’d be uncomfortable visiting a church service. If she’s as secularist as you say she shouldn’t have a problem. If she does, well you can always pick an argument with the pastor.
Other people do that when invited to service, right?
Presuming that’s about the Koch’s, I mean more criticizing liberal readers for being paranoid about the Kochs….when the Koch’s actually are openly using their money to try to influence politics, and put their money in a lot of pots.
I mean, it just seems odd to criticize folks of being skeptical of groups that the Koch’s, who are openly working on conspiring to influence political and scientific debates, put money into?
Basically blah blah blah current law suit where the Koch’s are suing for control of Cato proves that Cato wasn’t biased in their favor! WTF? Because Cato isn’t already absurdly biased for their funders and promote pseudoscience? Wanting MORE power doesn’t seem to address their initial complaints…nor frankly does the assurance from Cato members that they’re super dupper acting in good faith!
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Oh, okay. Sorry, missed what you were trying to say.
That may work. I’ll give it a shot.
Of course, that requires me to explain that I don’t want to go to church (and answer the inevitable “why” question).
Bah.
I may use the alternate cop-out of meeting my non-Christian uncle (aka her son, who she knows better than to invite to church) and his partner for breakfast.
Zugswangsays
Do I keep my mouth shut and go to church, or do I potentially pick a fight with my grandma, who, like I said, is a generally awesome person that I think a lot of?
Just politely decline. Since your grandma is an awesome person, she’ll likely understand and not probe further. Given she dislikes the idea of being told how to live, I sincerely doubt she’d feel a need to do it to you.
My grandma’s a staunch Catholic, but she knows I’m not a Christian, so she never asks me to go to church when I visit.
Mattir, #4: Well, that’s the problem with those sorts of slogans: Their applicability is only very crude and specific only to certain situations, but they get used like the proverbial sledgehammer for neurosurgery.
Ing, #13: Awesome. I’m so glad it all worked out.
Also, I just threw in on that thread about Cato.
Esteleth: I’d say something along the lines of, “I’m an atheist, grandma. I don’t believe in god. I’m not comfortable in a church. Tell you what, you go to church, I’ll go visit my uncle/take a walk/[whatever], and we’ll meet up afterward for lunch.”
If she’s as tough an old lady as you portray her as, she’ll cope. If she gets offended and defensive, you are going to have to re-evaluate how you relate to her, because she’s attempting to police an important part of who you are.
Of course, you could cop out, but you may end up kicking yourself for it.
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
I probably am way over-intellectualizing this. Probably how this will actually go is this:
Grandma: Esteleth, do you want to go to church?
Me: No thanks, Grandma.
Grandma: Okay, that’s fine.
Esteleth, I overanalyze relatively simple potential interactions, too. It can be hard when you care about someone and you have some significant differences of opinion with them.
ibyeasays
@Ing
I was talking more along the lines of CATO. Brayton was talking about how oh no, CATO is principled in civil liberties, so we should leave CATO alone. CATO can’t possibly be influenced by the Kochs! They are libertarians, not conservatives. Yeah, like that makes things better.
Dispatches is criticizing liberals for immediately thinking Cato = Heritage, when it’s evident that Cato is a lot less republican-mouthpiece than Heritage is. Whether that means they’re the shining start of progressivism or not isn’t the issue. He thinks working with “liberaltarian” groups like Cato would be a good thing.
Yeah, Daisy. I do that a lot.
I think it’s extra-hard here because I’ve always been very fond of her and uh…
…well, she’s going to be ninety and her health isn’t what it once was…
Uh…
I’m sure you understand what I’m incapable of typing.
Silisays
I’m sure you understand what I’m incapable of typing.
Yes.
And that’s as good an excuse as any to forget one’s principles for a bit and just let the issue slide, whether that be intellectual cowardice or not.
I’ll not quote Dan Savage in this case, since it isn’t really relevant.
cicely ("Intriguingly Odd")says
Welcome back, Menyambal! I hope that your “physical ills” are a thing of the past.
– *hugs* and *chikkensoop* for CC. Exhaustion-flu is no fun attall.
–
–
Ahhhh, the temporary bliss of faster loading times!
–
Court case was Wednesday. The Judge dismissed the case in our favor. Next week is Grandmother’s last radiation too. She’s very happy.
Honestly, I’m not sure how to feel about this, especially since many of the churches being foreclosed on are smallish, and probably were deceived in much the same way that people getting loans for houses they couldn’t afford were.
Frank Gehry’s buildings are not only ugly and leaky, but, for a while, one of them was shooting heat rays that warmed up neighboring condos by 15 degrees Fahrenheit and nearly blinded drivers at traffic lights.
Zugswang, while I don’t have much sympathy for churches of any sort, the phenomenon is yet another data point in the class war being waged against the vast majority of us, and I could cope if it ended up rallying xtians to reconsider their political allegiances.
In the face of an expected recall election targeting Gov. Scott Walker and four Republican state senators, the Wisconsin state Assembly voted Tuesday to amend the state constitution to make it more difficult to toss an official from office.
The measure, which still faces major hurdles before taking effect, would allow officeholders to be recalled only if they have been charged with a serious crime or if there is a finding of probable cause that they violated the state code of ethics.
So, would amending the state constitution to prohibit your own recall while the petitions to recall you are being verified count as violating the state code of ethics?
Weeeeeeeaksaaaaaaaauce. Not much worse than Gustav Peichl who designed the house my parents live in. So few right angles in there it’s impractical to live in; very large, but the rooms are so small it’s impractical to live in!
Does it make me a decent human or just a chump that I’m not outing a Facebook friend (and old HS girlfriend) whose Facebook presence as a mouthpiece for right-wing talking points belies the fact that I know for sure that she got pregnant […] and had an abortion when she was a teen?
The first thing I’d do would be to send her a private message about everything you just told us.
Why is your website […] with bad organization and access? Why is none of the most important information about enrolling available from the front page? Why is there not a comprehensive menu or sitemap? Why are links inconsistent and unclear?
Huh. Are you sure you’re talking about a community college in the US and not about a French university?
(No matter how good your French is, I triple-dog-dare you to look for anything on a French university website and then actually find it.)
When I was an undergrad, the admin spent who knows how much money building fences and putting up signs asking people to NOT come down the steps of the campus center, enter a lawn (that the steps END IN) and then continue across said lawn in the shortest path to the library.
*headdesk*
Instead, they hung signs that (I shit you not) said “PDWOTGIYAGA.”
…please don’t walk on the ?green? what is this I don’t even
“cheese-moving”
What does that mean? Is that the out-of-cheese error message?
And requiring you to type it in only twice is a joke; you ought to have to type it in 10 times on initial setting, followed by a once weekly email reminding you to go type it in another 10 times.
Why?
I don’t know much about Norse traders in China, did they take the northern route through the Siberian coastline? If so then perhaps
Were there ever any Norse traders in China? And the northern route was frozen and, well, simply unknown.
Of course, none of this applies to tales of the wall spreading, perhaps via Arab traders; but when the head (and indeed much of the wall) is so much younger, that makes it less plausible.
I have read a satirical book by a German author, called Letters into the past, where a Chinese scholar from the 10th century time travels into contemporary Germany. I know it’s a literary device and all, but why couldn’t the author just use an alien or something? Might have spared us the effect of exoticising Chinese culture.
It’s specifically “Letters into the Chinese past”, Briefe in die chinesische Vergangenheit. It’s pretty amazing, and the exoticization is mostly averted by taking it for granted and only portraying where modern western/German culture differs. What I couldn’t get over is that the author has no, and I mean no, clue about any kind of Chinese language. Uses letters and digraphs from 5 to 10 different transcription systems and throws them around like confetti. That kind of knowledge could have greatly enhanced his portrayal of the wacky German language – he tries a little bit of that, but faaaaar too little. The time traveler even takes the concept of conjugation for granted. *facepalm*
BTW, there’s a reason in the story why the time traveler ends up in Germany: he wanted to travel to future China, but didn’t know the Earth rotates. His first letter home (on time-travel paper) says “oh fuck, it’s all over, the barbarians have overrun the Great Wall, total dystopia, abandon all hope”. Of course, materializing right in the middle of a big road didn’t help.
I still have this dream that the Tea Party Movement will lead to a split of the GOP, and the US will evolve into a three party system. A daydreamer can dream, right?
No, why? The two-party system is built into the big-C Constitution. As I never tire to explain, that’s because 1) there’s no separation of head of state and head of government; 2) the election of the POTUS is an election of a single person, not a whole party or something; 3) such competitions always come down to a duel, so when each candidate accretes a party behind themself for support, you’re left with two parties; 4) the Founding Fathers didn’t like parties – and believed they’d never form if they simply shied away from mentioning them. *headdesk* That’s why Americans can’t have nice things.
What can in principle happen is that the Tea Party could make the Reptilians shrink to the point that, briefly, there’d be a one-party system; one or maybe two elections later, the Democrats would split into a more or less European-style conservative party and something to the left of that. That’s what I daydream of.
WHAT. THE. FUCK.
Something is wrong with my subconscious.
It’s not that weird, actually. You’ve just been working too much. :-)
the ghost of Fu Manchu looming over everything
(Literally so in one of the Fu Manchu movies – I’ve watched 1 or 2. The end: “I now need an ingenious idea immediately, or I shall die.” *fireball half the size of the temple he’s in* *fireball 1 1/2 the size of the temple* *fireball at least 3 times the size of the temple* *Smith watches from distance and goes away* *face of Fu Manchu occupies top of screen and says:* “You err again, Mr Smith! I, Dr Fu Man Chu*, live –”
* That annoying space is only there in the German version; in that version, you can actually hear it as a pause.
My bad cholesterol is good, and my blood pressure is frickin’ awesome! Yay!!!! And The Husband likewise. Double Yay!!!!
:-) :-) :-)
:-) :-) :-)
:-) :-) :-)
What do I have to do to be in the loop? Do I need to create that Facebook account for Πέλα 문?
No, you just need to stay on teh Thread. Nothing is being organized yet, we still have a few months.
I had an avulsion on my 5th metatarsal (tendon pulled off about 1/2 inch of bone – not fun) and my laptop suffered computercide. Spouse got mad at his computer, threw it, and managed not only to cause no damage to his own laptop, but to shatter the LCD of mine.
:-o
O horror.
from what I’ve read, LOTR was an effort to imagine what the mythology of northern European tribes would have been like if the Christians hadn’t been so keen on destroying all the manuscripts they could get their hands on.
Manuscripts? That stuff wasn’t written down. What we have was written down in Iceland after everyone had at least nominally converted, by Christians, in Latin letters.
Goddammit, Sears.
They’re afraid. They’re very afraid. :-)
Apparently this baby died of Type 1 herps after undergoing the ritual of metzitzah b’peh by a mohel.
*slow-motion facepalm*
Too tired for HULK SMASH today. It’s good the world doesn’t depend on my morals.
The Radical Homosexuals [only genuine with Three Capital Letters] infiltrating the United States Congress have a plan:
Indoctrinate an entire generation of American children with pro-homosexual propaganda and eliminate traditional values from American society.
Their ultimate dream is to create a new America based on sexual promiscuity
Interesting how homosexuality just falls under “sexual promiscuity” for those people.
I can’t help getting the impression they’re among those who simply don’t know that heterosexuals even exist. They have no idea what they’re ranting about!
a children’s shirt reading “don’t make me kick you in the fallopian tubes”
That is not funny. “Hi, I’m dangerously violent! Deeply annoying to meet you! :-) *wave*”
Dear self,
Please stop dating guys you aren’t attracted to.
Sincerely, Nutmeg
~:-| If you’re not attracted to him, how did you start dating him in the first place? I don’t understand that part.
I have a kitten perched on the top of my tummy as I recline, now. I need to go on a diet, but then the kitten would have nowhere to sit.
^_^
Happiness is a warm cat. ^_^
Philip K Dick once claimed* that the world ended over 1900 years ago.
*How seriously? Who can tell?
Who cares? Just another way to show that solipsism and the like aren’t falsifiable. :-)
The article reads almost like it’s trying to reverse psychology Christians into accepting skepticism and atheism o.o
Ah, yeah, that one. We talked about that a few… years ago somewhere on Pharyngula, probably on TET. Yep, it probably is doing exactly what you suspect.
I think I’m posthumely ruining my childhood.
*chocolate*
could this David Margolis be related to Lynn Margolis?
Lynn Margulis.
That’s interesting, not too surprising I guess, but I wouldn’t hold my breath for a spider string piano.
Oh, I forgot to tell you they’re working on it.
At artificially making spider silk, I mean.
Sounds nice. It seems like it has an airy quality that you don’t quite get with normal strings.
Experts agree, sez German news feature.
Also, I had the horrifying realization last night that a young woman I know, bright, scientifically gifted, beautiful, is seriously considering becoming a nun and dropping out of her merit-based full ride scholarship university education.
Oh fuck. I’m almost getting sick here.
I fear she needs to fall in hetero love very quickly. :-S
Tomorrow’s class is soil and water conservation, and I’ve enjoyed the preparation immensely. Next month is plant science. (Also, for the worried among you, I tend to run my presentations by actual professionals in the field in question before I give the class, so as to avoid doing the teaching-wrong-stuff thing which is all too common.)
Awesome!!!
*hugs* and *hot chocolate* to all who need/want them
*want*
That cartoon has generated an impressive chunk of BAAAWWW on the XKCD forum, complete with flounce!
=8-)
Is this our Azkyroth?
I’m sure he is. :-)
If you believe you can’t ask a respectable woman to have sex with you, and you can’t accept a slut,
…you should probably ask yourself a couple of questions about sluts and respectability. And about seeing past labels in general.
Kind of like “useD to (x)”, but that’s such a weird language construction
To me, the only weird thing about it is that it doesn’t exist in the present tense.
…so that plenty of native speakers evidently believe use to doesn’t exist at all and write didn’t used to.
Have it your way, PZ. You are a Metastasizing Dictator for Life.
Happy now?
LOL!
Probably refers to xkcd 513 and as such would be meant sarcastic.
Yep, the wording is identical.
Jesus, that XKCD thread is a trainwreck. One person suggests that a would-be PUA “actually step outside [his] own head for ten minutes and try some basic empathy.” The response: “It’s hard to teach a hungry tiger empathy for their prey.”
Well, I suppose it’s nice of the potential rapists to out themselves beforehand.
…
…At least I hope it’s potential and beforehand.
Court case was Wednesday. The Judge dismissed the case in our favor. Next week is Grandmother’s last radiation too. She’s very happy.
Breitbart, the 1st man in history to be assassinated because he knew too little.
Zugswangsays
Esteleth:
I get it. I, personally, avoid engaging senior citizens about faith unless it’s forced upon me, at which point, I no longer heed those inhibitions.
As much as I do not like letting people indulge in harmful ignorance and am quick to speak out against that which I see as nonsensical, there is a point at which I feel it’s simply best to leave well enough alone.
My rationale is such: this is a person who has likely spent decades raised in, and invested in, a perpetually reinforced paradigm that something is waiting for them after this life. It is a simple, but omnipresent idea that likely informs most of what they had done up until that point. Even for those of us who were only believers for a relatively short while, the process of conversion is long, and sometimes painful for many reasons. I’m not into causing unnecessary pain, so I’d rather not be the cause of an existential crisis that is extremely unlikely to resolve itself. Especially when the negative impact that could come from this person’s influence is so small as to be benign, or completely non-existent.
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
David:
Instead, they hung signs that (I shit you not) said “PDWOTGIYAGA.”
…please don’t walk on the ?green? what is this I don’t even
“Please don’t walk on the grass if you are going across.”
They also hung helpful explanatory signs about the acronym, including the fact that it was first coined in 1932 by the Provost. These signs included photographs of the college president at the time and of students with whistles chasing people who are walking on the grass.
Yes, really.
David Marjanovićsays
*follows link*
*pounces at onion girl*
*hugs*
*squeezes*
…
*uses confusion to grab all the bacon donuts and eat them*
Happy birthday, PZ. ^_^
Frank Gehry’s buildings are not only ugly and leaky, but, for a while, one of them was shooting heat rays that warmed up neighboring condos by 15 degrees Fahrenheit and nearly blinded drivers at traffic lights.
I think that comes close to “so bad it’s good”.
So, would amending the state constitution to prohibit your own recall while the petitions to recall you are being verified count as violating the state code of ethics?
It is an excellent school, but many of the admin’s attitudes and choices seem to be predicated on the idea of, “Well, no matter what happens, we will piss someone off. What do we do? I know! Let’s do what will piss everyone off!”
Nutmegsays
David M:
If you’re not attracted to him, how did you start dating him in the first place? I don’t understand that part.
The short answer to this is that I’m too shy and too busy with school to meet guys in real life, so I use OkCupid. Generally I don’t know if I’m going to be attracted to someone when I first go out with them. This particular guy is very nice and we have a lot in common, so we went out a few times. Unfortunately, I was completely not into it when he kissed me, and once he left I went and brushed my teeth compulsively and felt terrible for the rest of the night. I’m the opposite of experienced, but I don’t think that’s a good sign. And now I’m going to need to tell him I don’t feel any chemistry, when he seems to. Fuck.
[/angst]
The long answer about why I do this kind of thing in general is complicated and I don’t feel like getting into it right now, but I will probably pick the Horde’s brains at some point in the future.
***
Happy thoughts:
-I may have figured out what’s causing my [critters I study] to die. If I’m right, they should stop dying next week, and there may still be some of them around when they reach the stage I’m interested in.
-Geese should start to arrive back in my area next week. I know they’re overpopulated and a nuisance species in urban areas, but I love seeing the first goose of the year.
-Two months to fishing season!
Menyambal -- damned dirty apesays
David Marjanović and others, thanks for the greetings.
David, thanks for the Microraptor links. I was trying to make sense of the layout of the airfoils on the little guy, when your explanation that the legs were rotated wrongly finally clicked in my brain. (I do wish that artists would not take liberties for artistic reasons.)
Esteleth: “Please don’t walk on the grass if you are going across.”
[…] people will take a planned design and modify it to fit their needs. In the face of this, designers have two choices — allow the modification, or throw up obstacles (God forbid you digress from the original Vision!).
So, the landscape folk at Berkeley, in their foolishness, have chosen the latter. Not that it matters. People, being what they are, simply walk around it…
Sorry to hear it. I can somewhat relate. My situation is not completely comparable, but I see similarities, and my situation recently has been near to unbearable. Sorry don’t like to write about these things publicly in the internet. Happy to talk about by email though.
Also would like to echo Giliell’s offer in helping with German. My email can be found behind the link.
Ing
Great news about your grandmother!
Alethea 563, ruteekatreya 583, Giliell, 632, David M. 42: Orientalism
I talked with my Taiwanese English lit friend. My head is still dizzy from Michel Foucalt, Edward Said and Robert J.C. Young. But I think I might have been even too “lenient”, my acceptance of works like that by Hughart informed by my own western biases (as I said I’m bicultural).
However I will wait for Giliell’s response first.
love moderately, 591
No.*
*Sort of, for the President. It appears to specify that the Electoral College are the first round of a two-round system, and the Congress shall be the second round if necessary. But I can read a backdoor — while this is unlikely to be taken up legislatively, it would be constitutionally permissible — that each state’s Electors could do IRV among themselves and then transmit those results to DC where they’d then enter the two-round system.
Constitutionally, IRV could be used for every other election in the nation, including the popular vote for the President. And the Electoral College is widely despised; I expect to see it gone in three decades.
Ah yes, I was imprecise. I specifically meant Congress as mentioned as in Art. I. Art. II referring to the President does have some specifications, which I was aware of.
I was gonna write that changing the way Congress is elected would be more important, but I do remember speculations about Bloomberg running as an independent in 2008. The idea was to amass enough electors so he would be able to make a deal with one of the other candidates, and become something like a prime minister. It could work in theory.
But I still think that minority righs (meaning any kind of minority here, including the losing side of an election) would benefit more from changes to the way Congress is elected.
But as I said, these are all daydreams.
And since it fits thematically, pulling some of David M. 42’s
No, why? The two-party system is built into the big-C Constitution. As I never tire to explain, that’s because 1) there’s no separation of head of state and head of government; 2) the election of the POTUS is an election of a single person, not a whole party or something; 3) such competitions always come down to a duel, so when each candidate accretes a party behind themself for support, you’re left with two parties; 4) the Founding Fathers didn’t like parties – and believed they’d never form if they simply shied away from mentioning them. *headdesk* That’s why Americans can’t have nice things.
I explicity said I was daydreaming. I know enough about the US political system that it is far from likely to happen. But
1.-3. The Bloomberg strategy in 2008, would have tried to work around this. A third party candidate would become some kind of prime minister or super secretary, and would negotiate in the EC with their electors. A long shot by any means, but still…
4. However if I understand LM correctly, there is no provision in Art I that would mandate a first-past-the-post system. So it could be changed. It is not set in stone.
The article reads almost like it’s trying to reverse psychology Christians into accepting skepticism and atheism o.o
“Read the Bible” “Find out why they’re atheists” “They may relate solid scientific evidence” “No True Scotsman is a fallacy”
Hehe, you’re right, that’s probably what made me smirk. It’s just they seemed to have all these other wikihows, “how to be a good Christians” and all that. Maybe these were subversive too? Giliell, 632
My parents supported me when I had a fight with my history teacher over the Dutschlandlied.
We had a teacher like that. He was participating in the Oder Neiße runs and what have you. But he was ridiculed by all. In tenth grade the class president was tasked with telling him that we now wanted to be addressed by Sie. Pissed him off mightily, he retaliated with pop quizzes. Mattir, 643
I always find it sad if I see talented people dedicating their lives to some religion, anywhere. theophontes, 652
@ Sinophiles (that includes you pelamun)
Here are some of my pictures of the underground fortress and passages under the Great Wall. Enjoy. (Link to Flickr.)
I am a sinophile, just don’t like the CCP.
Nice pictures. Where were these taken exactly?
Also, that character in the one picture is 囚 qiú as in 囚犯 qiúfàn “prisoner” (the character shows a person 人 rén literally imprisoned in a box) SQB, 653
Didn’t you know? There is a clear link between Al Qaeda and Iraq.
LOL. At least they do share the uvular plosive. The joys of Arabic class…
Ms. Daisy Cutter, 676
Did anyone else catch this incredibly insulting article — in the Style section, no less — on how to celebrate International Women’s Day? Wear red lipstick! Stand on a bridge! Send flowers! Eat a cupcake! (And she doesn’t mean gnaw on a Pharyngula chewtoy.)
I agree with the others that
– abortion should absolutely be defended.
– if discussing religious belief as an atheist, you will not be able to avoid offending the sensibilities of a religious person. I mean your position ultimately is that they believe in something that doesn’t exist
– you shouldn’t feel compelled to discuss religion at the workplace Esteleth, 18
Wow, I envy you. I wish my grandmothers would have lived until their 90s. David M.
Were there ever any Norse traders in China? And the northern route was frozen and, well, simply unknown.
Of course, none of this applies to tales of the wall spreading, perhaps via Arab traders; but when the head (and indeed much of the wall) is so much younger, that makes it less plausible.
Additional googling in English, Chinese and Swedish, I think we can say they were in the Middle East for sure, maybe as far as Persia and Central Asia, and this Swedish forum here quotes some Arabic source as claiming that they made it up to India and China.
Oh they had a quote in English:
“These different journeys can also be made by land. The merchants that start from Spain or France go to Sus al-Aksa (in Morocco) and then to Tangier, whence they walk to Kairouan and the capital of Egypt. Thence they go to ar-Ramla, visit Damascus, al-Kufa, Baghdad, and al-Basra, cross Ahwaz, Fars, Kirman, Sind, Hind, and arrive in China.
No, you just need to stay on teh Thread. Nothing is being organized yet, we still have a few months.
OK, but maybe I shall join Facebook anyways.
Richard Austin, 41
Okay, this is just…
Wisconsin state Assembly approves limiting reasons person can be recalled from office
So, would amending the state constitution to prohibit your own recall while the petitions to recall you are being verified count as violating the state code of ethics?
I don’t see how that would work. Gov. Walker will probably face recall elections this year, and a constitutional amendment in Wisconsin has to be passed by two consecutive state legislatures. (Source)
Nutmeg, 51
I can understand. If there’s no chemistry, there is none. I used to be terrified of telling people such news. I’ve gotten a little better over the years, but some basic modicum of angst still remains. omake
here’s one of the creepiest election videos I’ve seen. Though the US has probably a lot of creepy stuff too (just thinking about the Herman Cain’s perplexing video)
OK, time to watch Germany’s answer to the Daily Show!
Sorry to hear it. I can somewhat relate. My situation is not completely comparable, but I see similarities, and my situation recently has been near to unbearable. Sorry don’t like to write about these things publicly in the internet. Happy to talk about by email though.
Also would like to echo Giliell’s offer in helping with German. My email can be found behind the link.
Ing
Great news about your grandmother!
Alethea 563, ruteekatreya 583, Giliell, 632, David M. 42: Orientalism
I talked with my Taiwanese English lit friend. My head is still dizzy from Michel Foucalt, Edward Said and Robert J.C. Young. But I think I might have been even too “lenient”, my acceptance of works like that by Hughart informed by my own western biases (as I said I’m bicultural).
However I will wait for Giliell’s response first.
love moderately, 591
No.*
*Sort of, for the President. It appears to specify that the Electoral College are the first round of a two-round system, and the Congress shall be the second round if necessary. But I can read a backdoor — while this is unlikely to be taken up legislatively, it would be constitutionally permissible — that each state’s Electors could do IRV among themselves and then transmit those results to DC where they’d then enter the two-round system.
Constitutionally, IRV could be used for every other election in the nation, including the popular vote for the President. And the Electoral College is widely despised; I expect to see it gone in three decades.
Ah yes, I was imprecise. I specifically meant Congress as mentioned as in Art. I. Art. II referring to the President does have some specifications, which I was aware of.
I was gonna write that changing the way Congress is elected would be more important, but I do remember speculations about Bloomberg running as an independent in 2008. The idea was to amass enough electors so he would be able to make a deal with one of the other candidates, and become something like a prime minister. It could work in theory.
But I still think that minority righs (meaning any kind of minority here, including the losing side of an election) would benefit more from changes to the way Congress is elected.
But as I said, these are all daydreams.
And since it fits thematically, pulling some of David M. 42’s
No, why? The two-party system is built into the big-C Constitution. As I never tire to explain, that’s because 1) there’s no separation of head of state and head of government; 2) the election of the POTUS is an election of a single person, not a whole party or something; 3) such competitions always come down to a duel, so when each candidate accretes a party behind themself for support, you’re left with two parties; 4) the Founding Fathers didn’t like parties – and believed they’d never form if they simply shied away from mentioning them. *headdesk* That’s why Americans can’t have nice things.
I explicity said I was daydreaming. I know enough about the US political system that it is far from likely to happen. But
1.-3. The Bloomberg strategy in 2008, would have tried to work around this. A third party candidate would become some kind of prime minister or super secretary, and would negotiate in the EC with their electors. A long shot by any means, but still…
4. However if I understand LM correctly, there is no provision in Art I that would mandate a first-past-the-post system. So it could be changed. It is not set in stone.
Ace of Sevens, 629
Does Kagin not get a lot of comments in general or is it just hard to get out of moderation over there?
The article reads almost like it’s trying to reverse psychology Christians into accepting skepticism and atheism o.o
“Read the Bible” “Find out why they’re atheists” “They may relate solid scientific evidence” “No True Scotsman is a fallacy”
Hehe, you’re right, that’s probably what made me smirk. It’s just they seemed to have all these other wikihows, “how to be a good Christians” and all that. Maybe these were subversive too? Giliell, 632
My parents supported me when I had a fight with my history teacher over the Dutschlandlied.
We had a teacher like that. He was participating in the Oder Neiße runs and what have you. But he was ridiculed by all. In tenth grade the class president was tasked with telling him that we now wanted to be addressed by Sie. Pissed him off mightily, he retaliated with pop quizzes. Mattir, 643
I always find it sad if I see talented people dedicating their lives to some religion, anywhere. theophontes, 652
@ Sinophiles (that includes you pelamun)
Here are some of my pictures of the underground fortress and passages under the Great Wall. Enjoy. (Link to Flickr.)
I am a sinophile, just don’t like the CCP.
Nice pictures. Where were these taken exactly?
Also, that character in the one picture is 囚 qiú as in 囚犯 qiúfàn “prisoner” (the character shows a person 人 rén literally imprisoned in a box) SQB, 653
Didn’t you know? There is a clear link between Al Qaeda and Iraq.
LOL. At least they do share the uvular plosive. The joys of Arabic class…
Ms. Daisy Cutter, 676
Did anyone else catch this incredibly insulting article — in the Style section, no less — on how to celebrate International Women’s Day? Wear red lipstick! Stand on a bridge! Send flowers! Eat a cupcake! (And she doesn’t mean gnaw on a Pharyngula chewtoy.)
I agree with the others that
– abortion should absolutely be defended.
– if discussing religious belief as an atheist, you will not be able to avoid offending the sensibilities of a religious person. I mean your position ultimately is that they believe in something that doesn’t exist
– you shouldn’t feel compelled to discuss religion at the workplace Esteleth, 18
Wow, I envy you. I wish my grandmothers would have lived until their 90s. David M.
Were there ever any Norse traders in China? And the northern route was frozen and, well, simply unknown.
Of course, none of this applies to tales of the wall spreading, perhaps via Arab traders; but when the head (and indeed much of the wall) is so much younger, that makes it less plausible.
Additional googling in English, Chinese and Swedish, I think we can say they were in the Middle East for sure, maybe as far as Persia and Central Asia, and this Swedish forum here quotes some Arabic source as claiming that they made it up to India and China.
Oh they had a quote in English:
“These different journeys can also be made by land. The merchants that start from Spain or France go to Sus al-Aksa (in Morocco) and then to Tangier, whence they walk to Kairouan and the capital of Egypt. Thence they go to ar-Ramla, visit Damascus, al-Kufa, Baghdad, and al-Basra, cross Ahwaz, Fars, Kirman, Sind, Hind, and arrive in China.
No, you just need to stay on teh Thread. Nothing is being organized yet, we still have a few months.
OK, but maybe I shall join Facebook anyways.
Richard Austin, 41
Okay, this is just…
Wisconsin state Assembly approves limiting reasons person can be recalled from office
So, would amending the state constitution to prohibit your own recall while the petitions to recall you are being verified count as violating the state code of ethics?
I don’t see how that would work. Gov. Walker will probably face recall elections this year, and a constitutional amendment in Wisconsin has to be passed by two consecutive state legislatures. (Source)
Nutmeg, 51
I can understand. If there’s no chemistry, there is none. I used to be terrified of telling people such news. I’ve gotten a little better over the years, but some basic modicum of angst still remains. omake
here’s one of the creepiest election videos I’ve seen. Though the US has probably a lot of creepy stuff too (just thinking about the Herman Cain’s perplexing video)
OK, time to watch Germany’s answer to the Daily Show!
OK, I understand the problem with the new Voter ID laws and how they’re disenfranchising.
What I don’t understand is why you have to register to vote in the US.
Why are you not automatically issued some sorta federal (or for that matter State) ID when you turn 18?
Aside from the obvious answer that a majority of politicians don’t want the poor to vote, of course. I assume that’s not the official argument. Right?
There is also the Anglo-Saxon tradition of not registering their citizens. Neither the US nor the UK have a national ID.
I’m not 100% sure about the UK, but in the US, you don’t register your domicile with the authorities, unless you’re a foreigner on a visa. So there would be no way to automatically send election notices.
It’s one of these cultural differences to continental Europe.
Richard Austinsays
The other aspect is that a national ID (or even a state ID) isn’t always current with the correct address. Like, I moved 8 months ago but I don’t get a new license until next year, so it has my old address from 40 miles and two cities away.
That makes voting in local elections harder to manage, since there’d have to be some way to verify you live where you say you live. With registration, you may not actually live there, but if you’re registered there you at least can’t vote anywhere else.
I talked with my Taiwanese English lit friend. My head is still dizzy from Michel Foucalt, Edward Said and Robert J.C. Young. But I think I might have been even too “lenient”, my acceptance of works like that by Hughart informed by my own western biases (as I said I’m bicultural).
Frankly, I’m disconnected with the culture of my parents, so I have no experience on offense at cultural details by the majority; If you’d like to talk about it at some point while I’m still paying attention to the Endless Thread, that’d be great, but no pressure.
that’s not an argument against a national ID. In European countries with obligation to register you have to deregister your old address and register your new one within a couple of weeks usually.
You will then get a new ID card or get some kind of address sticker attached to it.
changeable monikersays
Neither the US nor the UK have a national ID.
I’m not 100% sure about the UK, but […] there would be no way to automatically send election notices.
The UK has the Electoral Register. You have to register to vote, then they’ll send you the notices automatically.
If you register, you’ll (probably) be assessed for council tax, though. No representation without taxation and all that. ;)
'Tis Himself, OMsays
Happy birthday, PZ.
I’ve been elected Commode Door of the Yacht Club. The poor suckers will discover their error soon enough.
Richard Austinsays
pelamun:
that’s not an argument against a national ID. In European countries with obligation to register you have to deregister your old address and register your new one within a couple of weeks usually.
You will then get a new ID card or get some kind of address sticker attached to it.
Never said it was, but it’s an argument for registering, which is Sili’s original question. An ID doesn’t negate the need for registering.
(I’m not against a national ID instead of a state one; for example, I carry my passport pretty much everywhere.)
Silisays
There is also the Anglo-Saxon tradition of not registering their citizens.
Sili: I’m not sure if this piece of U.S. legislation is along the lines of what you’re talking about. Note the “Controversy and Opposition” section.
Also, any sort of federal registration system tends to be a hot button with the paranoid right. This eye-bleedy page gives you a taste of it. Note this section header: “National ID Card, RFID Chip, and Mark of the Beast Coming Soon says Congressman Ron Paul…”
Pelamun: Most of those cartoons are full of fail, and so is the intro. I probably shouldn’t expect anything better from the mainstream media in general and MSNBC in particular.
so if you choose not to vote, you could save taxes? How much are we talking? Because if I understand you correctly, unlike on the Continent, you wouldn’t have to register, right?
Richard Austin,
oh yes certainly. I think if you expect the government to provide services then it should actually have an idea where their citizens live.
Hekuni Catsays
Happy Birthday, PZ!
changeable monikersays
From the department of “why was I not informed about this before?”:
could this David Margolis be related to Lynn Margolis?
“Doubtful, sir. They spell and pronounce their names differently.”
I know they’re overpopulated and a nuisance species in urban areas, but I love seeing the first goose of the year.
Geese actually leave where you are?
I liked it better when I was biking home in an impending storm and I saw a skein of migrating snow geese overhead at an inconceivable elevation.
Richard Austinsays
I triple-dog-dare you to look for anything on a French university website and then actually find it.
It ain’t just a French problem.
Semi-related: the project I got hired to work on created a website a year before I came on. I took a look at it from the perspective of the only real business-person on the project. It has wonderful quotes from Important Persons, raving reviews, long lists of things it’ll help improve or problems it’ll help fix…
… And nowhere on the entire site does it say what the damned thing actually is or does.
We got one email through the site once that literally read, “Sounds nice. What is it?”
changeable monikersays
@pelamun: “so if you choose not to vote, you could save taxes?”
The short answer to this is that I’m too shy and too busy with school to meet guys in real life, so I use OkCupid.
Ah. See, I’m shy, attracted to extremely few faces, and too busy sitting holed up in a corner of a building few people know exists (the corner, not the building), so I… don’t do anything at all whatsoever in that direction. :-/ I’ll try to get out a bit when the weather warms up and stuff, and when my apartment becomes presentable.
Generally I don’t know if I’m going to be attracted to someone when I first go out with them.
That’s the part I don’t get: why do you go out together, loaded with expectations and stuff, when you haven’t corresponded enough to know if you like each other that much? Are you just afraid of being too cautious (I probably would be too cautious)?
[…] I was completely not into it when he kissed me, and once he left I went and brushed my teeth compulsively and felt terrible for the rest of the night. I’m the opposite of experienced, but I don’t think that’s a good sign.
I’m even less experienced than you, but… if you’re not simply not into kissing in general, if it’s about him personally, I’m pretty sure it’s not a good sign. :-)
And now I’m going to need to tell him I don’t feel any chemistry, when he seems to. Fuck.
Ouch.
Just don’t start with “you’re a nice guy, but”.
Do you think you can stay friends? Or do you think saying so would give him false hopes?
I may have figured out what’s causing my [critters I study] to die. If I’m right, they should stop dying next week, and there may still be some of them around when they reach the stage I’m interested in.
4. However if I understand LM correctly, there is no provision in Art I that would mandate a first-past-the-post system. So it could be changed. It is not set in stone.
There are already states (Maine and Nebraska) that have their electors vote according to the geographical distribution of majorities in the state. In 2008, one of the electors from Nebraska therefore voted for Obama.
In tenth grade the class president was tasked with telling him that we now wanted to be addressed by Sie.
Huh. Another generation. Only one teacher ever asked us (though I think in 9th grade), and we declined; we didn’t want that much mental change.
The joys of Arabic class…
Please tell us more! :-)
OK, but maybe I shall join Facebook anyways.
I still haven’t joined. One reason is that Facebook becomes more evil every few months.
OK, time to watch Germany’s answer to the Daily Show!
What would that be? (…But I don’t have TV anyway, so…)
It’s one of these cultural differences to continental Europe.
There’s no registration in France either!
The government still knows where you live, though. The trick seems to be the electricity bill, because the French Republic still owns its biggest electricity provider. EdF (Électricité de France) bills are considered very important documents and must be kept for 5 years.
Here in Germany I had to register within 2 weeks upon arrival.
a national ID (or even a state ID)
No such thing in Austria. But everyone has a passport, a driver’s licence and/or a… well, Personalausweis… I don’t even know what that’s good for or how to get it, but lots of people have such a thing and use it as proof of their existence whenever other people use their passport. Anyway, nobody is automatically issued any such thing, and the three things I mentioned are accepted as proof of ID in polling stations.
You will then get a new ID card
I got a sheet of paper (Meldebestätigung). In Austria, too, the confirmation of registration is a sheet of paper (Meldezettel).
“National ID Card, RFID Chip, and Mark of the Beast Coming Soon says Congressman Ron Paul…”
Paul believes in the Mark of the Beast?
oh yes certainly. I think if you expect the government to provide services then it should actually have an idea where their citizens live.
As Sili said: “Freeeeeeedommmmmm” – the government must not know where to send the black helicopters.
(And yes, everybody is important enough to warrant black helicopters being sent after them.)
David Marjanovićsays
It ain’t just a French problem.
I think the French ones are actually worse than that. Look, one of my almae matres. Perhaps click around a bit, mwahah.
Perhaps I’ll come in tomorrowlater today and/or on Sunday, but I don’t know how likely that is.
Ing, happy dance IRT the court case!
+++++++++++++++
Zugswang, all those churches being foreclosed on just need to prey harder. Fuck ’em.
If the church didn’t wake up when their congregation was being foreclosed on then they all need is a clue x 4.
+++++++++++++++
CATO was founded by the Koch suckers, those libertoonians are right about as often as Wrong Paul is.
I say pass the popcorn, it’s cute when they eat their own.
+++++++++++++++
Esteleth, I’m going with the ‘just tell her, she’ll understand’ folks. Maybe something along the lines of “Gramma, I’ve learned a lot from you, and one of the things is …” approach.
And maybe you’re doing the overthinking that I do, creating scenarios of how conversations might happen. I have yet to be successful at that;-)
And if she says something like ‘just do it for me?’, you are on your own. But don’t make up an excuse.
Me, I won’t go to services, I won’t attend funerals, but that’s just me.
+++++++++++++++++
‘Tis – “I’ve been elected Commode Door of the Yacht Club.”
Conga rats! Can I get reciprocal privileges?
+++++++++++++++++
There has been a huge fight over the years in the USA about the census needing stats, and the IRS and the Social Security Admin requiring national IDs. The compromise was that they couldn’t share the info.
And both the left and the right objected in all the above cases. And I kinda agree with both positions. A country needs to be able to track trends, but not individuals.
David Marjanović, that horror is indeed the cheese-moving that I was referring to.
In Australia we share the aversion to identity cards. We have compulsory voting (which works very well, thank you) and it’s required that you be on the electoral roll and notify changes of address.
Pelamun, I started rereading Bridge of Birds, and you may like to know that “Number Ten Ox” is not a name, but a nickname. Number ten son, strong as an ox, and as dumb as an ox! (Or maybe not so dumb…)
I do struggle with the orientalism issue. It seems to me like in some ways it’s a “good racism” (oxymoron intended) – a gateway between bigotry and multiculturalism. It’s good to know more about other cultures. It’s good not to pretend that Ango-Europeans are the only people who matter, the only people who have art or myth or adventure. But I can’t always pick which side of the gateway a particular work is on. Especially the more modern ones – the Victoriana is so much more obvious.
I still haven’t joined. One reason is that Facebook becomes more evil every few months.
Also, if you’re prone to occasional outbursts of retarded fuckwittery like myself, it might get you into trouble. I actually feel less exposed since my profile was deactivated, and I don’t miss it at all. If I want to communicate or stay up to date, I can use twitter. Although at the moment that one is full with this pribble thing slimily swarming all over PZ.
petermountainsays
I became so upset today that my hands trembled. Why?
Because of an online discussion.
Here’s my problem:
I don’t have an area of expertise, not brilliant nor visionary, am not especially eloquent; I admit to being run of the mill. But damn it I have a perspective and for what ever reason I feel like I need to defend it! Anyone else in a situation like mine and what do you bring to a discussion to compensate?
Ugh, sometimes I hate talking with my mother.
She called today and went on a rant about how Obamacare is ruining everything (most of it hasn’t even go into effect yet!). Then you went on a rant about how she shouldn’t have to pay for other people’s health care and she has so much money taken from her in taxes and she doesn’t get anything out of it. I tried to explain to her that it was a social contract and that she’s gotten help from the government lots of times (we were on WIC at one point, she has gotten and continues to get pell grants for school (and so so I), etc). But apparently everyone on welfare now a days is just lazy and manipulating the system (she actually needed it when she was on it and worked hard). And I told her that that’s a myth and statistically untrue. She tried to pull that “you’ll understand when you’re older” bullshit. As if I’m incapable understanding reality because I’m only 20 years old. She said that we’re each entitled to our own opinions and I said “well, yes, but you’re not entitled to your own facts.”
I try to educate her, but she won’t listen. She just starts shouting about how awful Obama is (literally shouting, she gets loud when she gets frustrated).
Even positive characterisations can be instances of appropriation. For instance, Turandot is a positive Chinese (Persian/Uyghur) figure in western literature, but that doesn’t make it less of an exercise of cultural dominance. It boils down to the question “Why can Puccini call this a story that happened in China?”.
Of course non-western people have their myth and adventure, why not read them directly? In a way seeing non-western culture through the lens of western authors deprives non-western authors of their chance of telling their story on their own terms (for instance fewer of their works will be translated into western languages).
People have now started to translate Jin Yong’s works into English. I believe all Four Great Classical Novels, the Journey to the West, the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, the Water Margin and Dream of the Red Chamber, have all been translated.
chigau (dodged a bullet)says
StarStuff
Last I remember your were 19.
Happy belated Birthday.
(I’m probably older than your mother but I pull that “you’ll understand when you’re older” shit only on people younger than 13.)
Of course non-western people have their myth and adventure, why not read them directly? In a way seeing non-western culture through the lens of western authors deprives non-western authors of their chance of telling their story on their own terms (for instance fewer of their works will be translated into western languages).
In short: because people are lazy. Or to be kinder, time-poor.
It’s hard to grapple with the whole big bang of another culture when it’s *everything* that’s unfamiliar – language, idioms, customs, diet, names, tropes, religion, references to other well-known stories and famous places and historical buildings and art works – well, everything!
Analogously, I am not Greek, and I didn’t read the works of Aeschylus or Homer first thing. I started with retellings of the Greek myths for children. I read Mary Renault’s Theseus novels. By the time I read adult translations of the actual classic Greek plays and poems, I already knew who the gods were, and who the main characters were, and what the names sounded like and a few words of the language, and where Troy was, and Mycenae and Ithaca and Knossos, and what Athena’s aegis was, and what Poseidon was god of, and so on and on. I had the background.
Story tellers translate the world for us. Good story tellers do it respectfully and well. I might hope that it does not deprive the non-western authors too much, perhaps even increases the market by creating interest, but I don’t know that for sure. I certainly sought out and enjoyed reading (an abridged) Journey to the West after watching the Monkey Magic TV show.
David M.: “Paul believes in the Mark of the Beast?” He’s a far right-wing xtian, so I’m sure he does.
Alethea, a good translator of novels who has sufficient familiarity with the culture in question can provide you with a good story to read that is also a learning exercise.
Ancient Greece does not strike me as a good analogy to modern China or even ancient China when you’re talking about the familiarity of the culture to the average Westerner. Modern Western culture still draws a great deal from ancient Greek culture; Westerners who have never read the plays or the myths use expressions such as “sour grapes.”
Petermountain, I’m sorry, I saw “Patrick Henry College” in the sidebar and stopped reading. There are some websites on which nothing good will ever happen.
Starstuff, the best thing you can do is just calmly say, “Mom, this conversation isn’t going to go anywhere good. I will talk to you later. Goodbye,” and hang up, then ignore the phone if she calls back immediately. This may not be entirely viable, obviously, if you’re still financially dependent on her, but it’s a standard means of setting boundaries with relatives or friends who lack them.
Also, I am compulsively reading that entire XKCD thread all the way through. My god, it’s full of dumb. Not just sociopath, not just asshole, but dumb.
One minor example:
Intelligent person:
Well, there are different primate species that have different social behaviors. Bonobos and chimpanzees, for example, exhibit dramatically different patterns of sexual behavior.
Humans are quite different from other primate species in terms of our sexual behavior. Primate models are of limited applicability because of the great variety and importance of sexual behaviors that occur only in humans.
PUA(who quotes only the first paragraph above):
In this thread: Bonobos criticizing chimpanzees for trying to conform to a certain pattern of behavior.
OK, I lied. Another example:
As for the whole “friend zone” thing, I think that there is evidence of this at least on the extreme case. Unrelated children raised together are very unlikely to ever have romantic involvement.
Thomathy is in there trying to argue with them, in particular one guy who doesn’t understand that “Sexual attraction operates on an individual level” does not validate his claim that all straight women experience sexual attraction in one way while all straight men experience it in another.
changeable monikersays
I’ve been elected Commode Door of the Yacht Club.
I believe the technical term is “head wood”. (“Head wood would would” is the punchline to a completely different joke, of course.)
Ms Daisy Cutter, that’s exactly my point! While I’m not Greek, let alone ancient Greek, it’s familiar to me with all the background I have. I wasn’t born knowing it; my childhood prepared me to read those stories. Of course I read Aesop’s fables. Greek is less alien to me than Chinese precisely because of that.
My childhood has NOT prepared me for more distant cultures. I can’t just jump in and read Wu Cheng’en or the Ramayana in the same way that I can jump in and read Homer or the Bible. And no-one can ever become globally culturally fluent; there are simply too many different cultures for one human lifetime. And so I believe that there is a totally legitimate role for writers who serve as faithful and imaginative interpreters. Not just travel-writers and direct translators, but also imaginative presentations.
This does not mean that all story-tellers are respectful to the traditions that they are using in their work. Some are, and some aren’t. But of course I lack the education to tell them apart, unless their disrespect is quite obvious. (Which still happens sadly often.)
Nutmegsays
Rey Fox, 71
Geese actually leave where you are?
Yeah, I’m in the Great White North and there’s very little open water here in winter. My city has a flock of about 40 mallards that stick around all winter and feed in a sewage lagoon, but I haven’t seen geese between December and March.
David M, 74
why do you go out together, loaded with expectations and stuff, when you haven’t corresponded enough to know if you like each other that much?
I can’t speak for everyone who does online dating, but I’ve found that first dates are very casual. There aren’t a lot of expectations. I personally don’t like to correspond for too long, because then there’s not very much to talk about on the first date. Many people don’t want to invest a lot of time and energy in corresponding and then go on a first date and find that there’s no physical attraction.
And as for why I sometimes go on second dates when I’m not sure if I like someone, it’s actually pretty rare for me to be attracted to a guy at first sight. Or, if I’m being honest with myself, at all. I used to think that I must be straight, because that’s the null hypothesis, and when I was religious I thought it was the only okay way to be. But pretty much as soon as I started having serious doubts about God and therefore not being as sexually repressed, my mind and body were like, “Hey! Have you noticed you like girls?” Over the past few years, my estimation of where I sit on the Kinsey scale has been going up steadily. My New Year’s resolution was to stop being angsty about it and just figure it out. Hence, online dating, which is an efficient way of meeting lots of guys and collecting data on how I feel about them. I haven’t given up on guys yet, but so far it’s not looking good. Meeting girls will be more complicated, but it’s the next logical step. I just need to get up some guts and do it.
Just don’t start with “you’re a nice guy, but”
All right, male-identified people of the Horde, do you have opinions about this? Too late to do me any good – I just finished talking to the guy I was seeing – but I’m curious.
I’ve heard that, when you first met someone in a dating situation and it wasn’t a very long relationship, it’s better not to try to stay friends when it’s over. That seems logical to me.
StarStuff, 83
went on a rant about how she shouldn’t have to pay for other people’s health care
My sympathies. I don’t usually have to have this argument with people, but I’d like to point out how freaking AWESOME socialized medicine is. Having the government pay for my inhalers means that a) I have meds that keep me from ending up in the emergency room needing much more expensive care, b) I don’t have to choose between paying tuition and paying for (very expensive) inhalers, and c) I can be active, which prevents problems later in life. As well, socialized medicine allowed me to have two large birthmarks removed a few months ago, as a precaution against melanoma, without any cost to me.
I think that access to affordable healthcare means that a lot of problems get dealt with early on, and a lot of money is saved in the end. Unfortunately, you probably won’t be able to convince your mother of this. I agree that it’s probably better to stay out of the conversation.
Sorry, Alethea, I misread what you were saying. I thought you meant that you could not have eventually appreciated reading the ancient plays without all the preceding study.
If your research time is limited, I guess you could look at the one-star reviews on Amazon for any novel along those lines you’re interested in reading and see if the issue of exoticism comes up therein. Or google on the title plus “exoticism” or “Orientalism” or “fetishization.”
Unrelated: Someone put this video together. I admire the dedication, I guess…
I’ve heard that, when you first met someone in a dating situation and it wasn’t a very long relationship, it’s better not to try to stay friends when it’s over. That seems logical to me.
It’s also true for longer relationships. (Unless you have children together, in which case you will need to see one another regularly and therefore have to work out a means of getting along.)
On the other hand, once enough time goes by, it’s possible to have a friendship with an ex. It’s just that right afterward isn’t a good time.
Mostly threadrupt, but the passing mention of Richard Feynman in the posts about the xkcd/PUA comments reminded me of this site, which I stumbled upon during a conversation about Feynman on the user forum of an entirely different sort of website than this one.
I don’t know Feynman’s biography well enough to know whether the story about him “negging” has any validity. I do know he had a fascination with strippers (some of whom are the models for some of the sketches at that link), but the comment about him quoted here had a whiff of unsupported slander about it. Plus, the nudes among his sketches speak (to me, at least) of a more generous, nuanced view of women than seems consistent with skeevy PUA shallowness.
Bonus Points: I rediscovering that site, I discovered (for the first time) that there’s a little game that turns any of the images into a virtual jigsaw puzzle that you can reassemble on screen. It’s a somewhat quirky way to appreciate art, but oddly compelling.
PS: Welcome back, Mattir. Sorry for your troubles; happy you’re getting past them. Also welcomes, cheers, and condolences to those who need them and who I’ve missed.
Thomathy, Holy Trinity of Conflation: Atheist-Secularist-Darwinistsays
HI, THREAD!
Ms. Daisy Cutter, Gynofascist in a Spiffy Hugo Boss Uniform, yeah, that guys was a spectacular moron. If that conversation were in real life, I actually would have started yelling. I can stand to repeat myself when I’m not being understood, but I become very frustrated when the person exhibits some level of understanding that indicates the ability to understand and then fails spectacularly at understanding.
It’s a good thing that that particular douche just stopped posting.
Thanks for recognising my efforts over there. It’s been harrowing, but invigorating. (Visit the XKCD thread here at Pharyngula to find out, everyone.)
Any chance that you’ll wade into the muck? It’s a lonely, if exciting world. Also, I just caught up with the entire thread and the stupid got slightly worse.
For everyone who just joined the thread, I presented this scenario:
You’re talking to a girl. She seem uninterested. You can:
1. Go talk to someone else, which can build her interest (manipulative)
2. Go say you want to do something else, which can make her try to convince you to stay (manipulative)
3. Keep talking to her (creepy and counterproductive)
If all 3 of those options are unethical, then you’ve just checkmated a guy into not being able to do anything.
That’s by ddxxdd. He’s a special one, toxic even.
firstapproximationsays
Happy Birthday, PZ!
eigenpersonsays
Anyone who wades into that pile of muck at xkcd will win my Special Award for Services to the Fora. It is completely unofficial but I will award it to you in my heart.
I’ve made a ton of posts in the thread (to preserve some vestige of my anonymity I won’t say which person I am), but it’s absolutely exhausting.
ddxxdd is a massive creep. His comments about domestic violence alone make him so. But he also wrote, “Agency is not a right; either you have it or you don’t.”
He’s the same idiot who made what he thought was the snappy rebuttal about chimps and bonobos that I quoted upthread. He refers to PUA tactics as “courting a girl.” And he seems unable to understand that the same action can have a different moral weight depending on motive.
While he doesn’t give off the JESUS CHRIST RUN!! vibe that, say, the MRAs regularly featured on Manboobz do, I wouldn’t want to be alone with him, either.
Thomathy, Holy Trinity of Conflation: Atheist-Secularist-Darwinistsays
Well, you should run screaming, screaming a warning, from anyone who thinks and admits to thinking that, ‘Agency is not a right; either you have it or you don’t.’ because chances are, from his perspective, you fall into the ‘don’t’ category. I wouldn’t even let things without agency alone with someone with such a sociopathic thought.
eigenpersonsays
I don’t know. Personally, I get the “JESUS CHRIST RUN!!” vibe from him in spades.
I mean, even though he doesn’t say totally blatantly evil things like lots of MRAs, I get the feeling that’s because he’s just (slightly) better at disguising it. His arguments about the jealousy plotlines are, I am convinced, deliberately intended to misrepresent the tactic to the reader (that is, they’re more than just a self-protective defense mechanism — I think he actually understands what the whole PUA thing is about and is trying to prevent others from finding out).
Thomathy, Holy Trinity of Conflation: Atheist-Secularist-Darwinistsays
Eigenperson, he does a bad job at keeping it a secret. I got shivers when I read one particular comment by him, but I can’t remember which one …but damn it was some creepy shit.
Thomathy, Holy Trinity of Conflation: Atheist-Secularist-Darwinistsays
And, too soon perhaps, but good night thread. I’ll be back tomorrow, since I’ve engaged you.
eigenpersonsays
I got mostly angries when reading his comments, not shivers, but yeah, I agree he does a very bad job. Let me revise my statement to say that he is attempting to keep it a secret.
Well, I was thinking of a Marc Lépine or a George Sodini when I made the “JESUS CHRIST RUN!!” remark. But, yes, I realize I’m being overly generous to ddxxdd because he’s not typing “cunt” every fifth word and screaming about false rape convictions. Like I said, I wouldn’t want to be alone with him, and I’d warn other women against same.
Epitomizing the cutting edge of the Oops Factor after such a promising run and yet still managing to get a handful of style points for admitting the oops.
I suppose that the poor ol’ boy now considers his life’s work done and is content to slip into forgetfulness. His own, I reckon. Certainly not mine.
For some reason I am reminded of the last line in Bradbury’s “Kaleidoscope”:
As Ms. Daisy Cutter said, the Ancient Greek fables are a core part of the dominant global culture, so I’m not sure if they are a useful comparison.
(also a slight nitpick: the Four Great Classical Novels, despite their name, are of recent origin, from the Ming dynasty and beyond, and written in a literary style of Mandarin. There are stories/fables that could be compared to Aesop’s fables which were written much earlier, in Classical Chinese. I’ve come across children’s cartoons that have been made to make those more accessible to kids, just like they do for the Greek fables.)
Also, my “why not read them directly” was a rhetorical question.
It seems that where the westerner only sees good story-tellers, a non-westerner could see a westerner appropriating their culture. Even a good story-teller is informed by their cultural background, and runs the risk of getting things wrong when telling stories from a different culture. But other than that, it’s also the question of who gets to tell the story. This is also a form of power exercised by a member of the dominant culture.
About “not being able to jump in”: as I said the Four Great Novels are actually much closer to the contemporary language, and thus should be more accessible. Comparing them to the Ramayana is a false equivalence, I’m not talking about starting with the Shijing. Also there are adaptations of the same material, which may be more accessible, for instance
– Dragonball in its first volumes as a parody of Journey to the West. There is also a Doraemon volume about it, but I don’t think kids in the west grow up with Doraemon (might have changed now? Manga fans let me know)
– For Romance of the Three Kingdoms, there is a very amusing Taiwanese webcomic (that comes in three languages including English)
– Water Margin has been mangafied as well.
– I don’t know about Dream of the Red Chamber. Even though the most recent of the four, it is known for its complexity.
So there you have adaptations of these novels, done by East Asian writers.
But it’s not like the Four Novels are all that has been translated into English. I mentioned Jin Yong. He’s the most popular Wuxia author alive. Many elements from that genre should be similar to knight errant stories (often with a supernatural element), and as such accessible even to the reader who is not familiar with Chinese culture. (If you want to have a look, email me.)
I also recommend getting the book by Lung Ying-tai I mentioned the other day, once its translation into English and French is complete. It’s more like a collection of stories about the tragedy of the Civil War that ended in 1949, and one of the most influential books to come out in the Chinese-speaking world in the last few years.
Sorry, Alethea, I misread what you were saying. I thought you meant that you could not have eventually appreciated reading the ancient plays without all the preceding study.
Well, in a way I *did* say that. The “preceding study” was just normal childhood learning for me, where it came to my own and some related cultures.
But where it’s a more distant culture, that background is missing, so it’s definitely more work. If I can have some painless catch-up education by novel or TV or movie or game, that’s just fine by me. I really hope that it’s not mis-education, though. I like your google idea.
Crudely Wrottsays
@ Esteleth way back at #18,
Just love the old gal as you would like to be loved should you be in her place.
She is nearing the end of life and probably understands your worries even if she doesn’t argue them. You are nearer your beginnings which for old folks often seems to echo their own former days. Every one of us understands conviction and devotion and the sheer sweaty effort it takes to live well. I’m sure that she admires in you qualities that she has long admired in herself and others. Old people can be quite confident about values and character . . . not to mention smug in their confidence of possessing not only sterling values but sterling character as well. My, isn’t this how we are?
Yes, go to church with her. It will cost you nothing but time and perhaps she will count your company as priceless as her time dwindles and fades. Of such small kindnesses and considerations is the sweetness of life comprised. Go on, put a smile on your face and go with her. The cost to you is negligible and her delight could be a tonic that sustains her.
Go gently with her and gently let her go when her time comes.
Love is enough. She’ll know and you can be at peace.
Apropos of nothing, but does anyone else here subscribe to the Fresh Air podcast? Over the last couple days, I seem to have been getting only the reviews (~6 minutes) instead of the whole show; did I miss a memo or announcement? I love the reviews, but I miss Terry Gross’s interviews.
chigau (dodged a bullet)says
Esteleth
re Grandma and church
What Crudely Wrott #114 said.
you won’t be Making A Statement
you won’t be Making A Stand
you will be: being with granny.
'Tis Himself, OMsays
The xkcd comments are wearying. Damn but there are some people who just don’t want to get it. I don’t believe I’ll ever go back there.
Rev. BigDumbChimpsays
Watching Bill Maher. He just doesn’t fucking get it.
eigenpersonsays
#117 ‘Tis: I don’t blame you. That is the single worst thread I’ve seen there since… well, ever.
@StarStuff
I am going to take a bet and say that it has to do with the Sandra Fluke situation.
theophontes, Benign Bullet Dodger in Chiefsays
@ Esteleth
…well, she’s going to be ninety and her health isn’t what it once was…
My grandmother lived to 98. She believed in belief. I told to her that I am an atheist and would not fail to take the piss out of religion. She was actually happy about this. I guess my being my own person meant more to her than if I went along with religion. Which brings me to this point. It is not about atheism here, it is about your grandmother. If sitting next to her in church means a lot to her, at least seriously consider going. Also be quite clear what your position is wrt religion, she will likely approve.
(Personally, I love old churches anyway.)
[PS: I see Crudely Wrott beat me to this.]
@ pelamun, the Linguist of Doom 57
(the character shows a person 人 rén literally imprisoned in a box)
Ha, thought as much. Here are the directions in my previous post.
Josh, Official SpokesGaysays
Totes TET bankrupt; my apologies.
1. Mattir!!!! So good to see you here!
2. Just got an antique Aladdin kerosene mantle-burning lamp. Love. Throws shit tons of light and puts out enough heat to keep my furnace turned off.
I’m not quite sure why the Greek analogy isn’t making sense to people. It takes education. No-one is born knowing it. I have it. I assume that other cultures, not being Disneyland, also take education to understand in any depth. No-one is born knowing it. I don’t have it.
(Also, Pelamun, the parallel constructions I drew were Wu Ch’eng-en:Homer; and Ramayana:Bible.)
It seems that where the westerner only sees good story-tellers, a non-westerner could see a westerner appropriating their culture. Even a good story-teller is informed by their cultural background, and runs the risk of getting things wrong when telling stories from a different culture. But other than that, it’s also the question of who gets to tell the story. This is also a form of power exercised by a member of the dominant culture.
Now this is the point where it gets difficult. There’s actually two questions here: one of hierarchy and power and appropriation, and the other of translation. The answers aren’t necessarily the same. It’s arguable that a translator could do best translating from their foreign to their native tongue, because they know what will need clarification and explanation. Things that go unspoken and assumed as obvious in one place are jarring or incomprehensible elsewhere. But that can’t easily be examined as a neutral question, when there’s also a history of exploitation between the two cultures.
I don’t think there’s a simple answer. I want to be educated and amused. I think it’s a moral good to be more educated about the world, and especially to be aware of and reasonably sympathetic to cultures different from my own. I don’t have any right to demand that oppressed peoples educate and amuse me. So umm, that means that educated people from my own culture explaining the trickier stuff for me ought to be good, right? Or is it…
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Why am I still awake? It’s 12:45 am.
Possibly due to the giant mug of strong black tea I had at 10.
Meh.
I learned a few things today:
1) Playing Sims for 4 hours straight gives me a sore neck and wrist.
2) The equation of “every week, buy a 6-pack and drink 4 beers” equals “overfull fridge” in short order. Oh, and “drink more” is not the solution.
___
Talked to grandma. Seems she had noticed my hesitance re: church and wanted to ask about it. Decided to open the conversation by talking about her dear, dear friend who recently, with much hesitation, came out as an atheist, and how she (my grandma) thinks this is just peachy and super-brave of her friend.
So: my grandma, who as previously stated is awesome, is more awesome than I gave her credit for.
She did ask me to come to church with her again – but said that the choir is very nice these days and she knows I love music. Also, she doesn’t get many chances to show off her grandkids these days (and she’s so! proud! of! me!). In other news, my grandma (1) knows me well and (2) is not above a shameless guilt-trip. I am won over. I will go, listen to the music, and be bragged about to her friends.
She then promised to take me shopping for housewares. Asked if I “could use a Kitchenaid Stand Mixer with all the parts, it’s gathering dust in the attic.”
…my left hand is blue from the mid-palm to the fingertips. What.
Just_A_Lurkersays
Hey, just a quick question. I know we have dramaholic instead of drama queen, is there a substitute/better phrasing for attention whore? I would like to know for myself, plus I have a real life guy friend that I’m trying to convince to be less sexist. He’s not that bad but I do see some shining examples of bullshit from him. I’ve started calling him on things, have had conversations to explain somethings and have vented about the sexist shit in society when I need to blow off steam and he seems to get it.
He’s respectfully stopped saying “I got raped” etc when playing games. I can see him catch himself before he says it and if he slips he says sorry right away. It helps so much, makes me happy that I have a friend who understands.
Anyways, any other substitutes out there for sexist saying/shit? I know most of the time we just need to get rid of it but it would help to have something to say instead of it. Right now, my friend and I are at an impasse, he knows its sexist and I complain every time it comes up and he’s just asking for a substitute, which I am not creative enough to think of one.
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
That came across as way more stream-of-conciousness than I intended. I think the caffeine is wearing off. Sleep is in order, I think.
Just_A_Lurkersays
I’m not quite sure why the Greek analogy isn’t making sense to people. It takes education. No-one is born knowing it. I have it. I assume that other cultures, not being Disneyland, also take education to understand in any depth. No-one is born knowing it. I don’t have it.
I understand what you’re saying but I’m not going to be much help. If we had cartoons etc about an Asian culture from toddling up to young adult it would be far easier to read books straight from that culture. I think of western writer’s books as a stepping stone to reading direct from the other culture. Otherwise its just going to be a long and frustrating journey trying to swim in unknown territory.
One good series I found that was written by an American who had Asian parents (I’m struggling to remember where from exactly) and majored in the study as well, in Laura Joh Rowland. It helped me understand more about Japan and its history. There was a bit of look up for me in the beginning since I knew like nothing about that time in Japan but she does well with bringing in to life for me. Much information about the time, how society worked, and it exposed me to the story of the 40 ronin. I had never heard of it before and looked it up afterwards.
Of course, now I’m sure I will find out its a romanticized version or that its wrong. That’s the problem with reading into another culture with no background on it, I have no idea if its bad or not.
chigau (I don't like that bullet thing)says
Esteleth
Please give your Granny a hug from me.
She sounds awesome.
(I never went to church with my Gran but we did watch Dark Shadows together.)
theophontes, Benign Bullet Dodger in Chiefsays
@ Josh
Totes TET bankrupt; my apologies.
HAH!!!
You are just here for teh hugs… ;)
{theophontes pours large packet of hugs into USB port.}
Of course non-western people have their myth and adventure, why not read them directly? In a way seeing non-western culture through the lens of western authors deprives non-western authors of their chance of telling their story on their own terms (for instance fewer of their works will be translated into western languages).
That makes sense, but I don’t really read.
– For Romance of the Three Kingdoms, there is a very amusing Taiwanese webcomic (that comes in three languages including English)
Okay, I did read that (Poor, poor Jia Xu).
But, bluntly, just how racist is it to play Legends of the Wulin or Legends of the Five Rings? Is doing Wuxia in roleplay just completely verboten for me as a westerner? I can’t tactfully leave the current game I’m in, but I can take it under advisement for the future.
This may sound strange…but does anyone have a link to a good debunking of Howard Johnson’s magnetic motor? I tried googling but I’m finding mostly either references to the patent or youtube videos claiming it’s actually true.
I just told my father over the phone that I’m an atheist, and he said that while he wouldn’t call himself that, he agrees with me regarding the influence of religions being negative…but then he goes on to be totally new-agey paranoid. While I wouldn’t trust businesses in general, his suggestion is a bit over the top (“we could have free energy if the companies hadn’t suppressed important stuff!”). To be fair, he isn’t actually claiming that it’s valid, he just hasn’t evaluated it himself and thinks it’s “interesting” and wants to know more.
Well, from what I’ve found it doesn’t violate the laws of known physics, and isn’t impressive, but the patent is such a huge mess that I’d prefer to have something ready-made rather than having to wade through the entire thing myself.
Oh and he has a PhD in engineering so it doesn’t matter if the debunking is extremely technical. He works for oil companies quite a bit so perhaps his suspicions are something we should take note of….but not to the extent of believing in free energy.
I stand corrected on the wuxia. It appears that there is egg on my face in presuming that it is a bunch of white people making at least one of the games concerning me. Pleasantly surprised and chagrined. I also think I’m derailing too much, I’m going to go track down some of the references you mentioned your friend cited.
Allow me to introduce you to the second law of thermodynamics.
I should’ve clarified…”as demonstrated”; i.e., it didn’t demonstrate anything remarkable, so it didn’t “work” in the sense that was claimed.
Obviously I know that magnetism — while it does actually decay over time — doesn’t produce any kind of force any more than, say, gravity, i was just hoping to see an existing article on the matter so I don’t need to go through every detail myself.
John Moralessays
sosw, I guess I was kinda unreasonably snarky, there. Sorry.
All I can add is that it’s not up to you to debunk anything, it’s up to the claimant to establish their claim. Burden of proof and all that.
John Moralessays
Hey Rutee, while you’re here, what was that about my “anagram [sic] names” in the billboard thread?
(I think you’ve confused me with someone else, I just use my name)
In no particular order:
==== This is for Josh and his lamps.
====
Loathe the concept of moving cheese, since the only option presented is adapting to the change. It is presented as if no one has any influence on the moving itself, which of course management loves the book — we’re changing, get with it or get out, but don’t you dare do anything about it!
====
Apropos of nothing, I loathe Jeff Dunham. Gets away with making astonishingly racist and sexist jokes while pretending it’s the dummy. As if we didn’t notice it’s his hand up the dummy’s ass!
==== Ing, congratulations on winning the case. Sometimes, there is justice.
====
(…) since my profile was deactivated (…)
rorschach, I was under the impression that you deactivated it yourself. Wasn’t that the case? (If you don’t mind me for asking, I can imagine you don’t want to talk about it).
====
2) The equation of “every week, buy a 6-pack and drink 4 beers” equals “overfull fridge” in short order. Oh, and “drink more” is not the solution.
How about not buying a 6-pack every 3rd week?
====
…my left hand is blue from the mid-palm to the fingertips. What.
Unless you’ve been eating blue candy, that doesn’t sound right. Or did you just buy a new pair of blue jeans?
====
I’m taken, but shouldn’t we set up some sort of OKPharyngulaCupid?
====
*Waves to Mattir and Menyambal* I hope your troubles are over or at least will soon fade.
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and liessays
Hello, everybody!
I’m so thread bankrupt that it’s not even funny*.
So, how’s everyone doin’?
*Still playing Mass Effect. You know how it is.
ffrancissays
De-lurking to offer a caution to Josh – I lived with Aladdin kerosene lamps as primary light source for years and learned the hard way that you have to watch them like a hawk. A tiny little maladjustment on the wick may cause the mantle to begin to burn unevenly and if you don’t correct it, almost before you know it the mantle’s on fire and flames are shooting up the top of the chimney. Until you’re really familiar with it, don’t ever leave it lit while you’re not in the room, and even when you’re there, get into the habit of glancing over at it every few minutes. The first sign of trouble will be a black spot somewhere on the mantle. Also, if you didn’t get one with the lamp, you should have the special wick trimmer that they need: a little round plastic thingie that fits over the top of the wick. A lot more light than standard kerosene lamps, but touchy.
'Tis Himself, OMsays
So, how’s everyone doin’?
Pretty good. Not next week but the week after I’m taking vacation because the wife will be getting a breast. And even though the boat is going into the water on St. Patrick’s day, I’ll be staying home to take care of the wife.
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and liessays
Not next week but the week after I’m taking vacation because the wife will be getting a breast.
Oh, ‘Tis. I didn’t realize that she had one removed.
Good luck to ‘Tis Herself– I hope the recovery goes smoothly and she doesn’t have too much pain.
'Tis Himself, OMsays
Allow me to introduce you to the second law of thermodynamics.
Isn’t that the one that proves evilution can’t happen?
Oh what a day.
My daughter has a strep infection, German doctors are weird and my mother kicked me out of the house.
Which she didn’t intend to result in me leaving, but in the usual me backing down because I love her of course and because of the children (she had the audacity to follow me to the car where I was sitting next to my sick daughter, try to engage me in a “talk about what is wrong with me” and then tell me to think of the children)and everybody else.
Unfortunately I’ve taken the red pill this weekend, so instead of accepting just how awefully wrong I am (yes, I am crazy, she told me), I saw the first 33 years of my life fast forwarding to the almost broken person that I am now.
Oh, and my therapist is, of course, an incompetent idiot because he failed to tell me that I am wrong, hypersensitive, broken and in need of being fixed by her.
If gaslighting hadn’t been invented already, it would be named after her.
I don’t know if there is any hope for her to come around, to accept what she did and is doing and change. The way she smelled of alcohol I doubt it, but for the first time in years I feel like there’s hope for me.
'Tis Himself, OMsays
Thanks, Audley.
She had a breast removed, had chemotherapy, and now the reconstructive surgeon* will build her a new boob. Giving her a new nipple is the bit I find interesting.
*Apparently “plastic surgeon” is a tainted term.
'Tis Himself, OMsays
but for the first time in years I feel like there’s hope for me.
There probably isn’t much you can do for your mother so you should work on getting yourself right.
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and liessays
‘Tis,
Giving her a new nipple is the bit I find interesting.
You know, I’ve never thought about that– what do they make the nipple out of? Skin?
(I think you’ve confused me with someone else, I just use my name)
[ ] Make Awesome Dinner
[ ] Post in Play by Post RPG
[ ] Ascend Tengu Gladiator
[ ] Runes. More of them.
[ ] Play FFXIII
[ ] Do Laundry
[ ] Clean Bathroom
[ ] Groceries
….
[ ] Wisdom Teeth Removal
[ ] Get press ganged onto somalian pirate ship.
[ ] Prove i = 42
[ ] Host the John Show starring John
[ ] Fix MRM
It’s on my list, right about where it needs to be.
Holy shit, that is terrible gilliel. I hope everything’s going okay. =/
Rev. BigDumbChimpsays
Not sure if this has been posted but guess what the real motivation of Invisible Children is? To evangelize.
keenacatsays
Tis,
all the best for your wife. Boob reconstruction is awesome in terms of technical possibilities (getting operated on, however, always sucks to some extent). Chances are she’ll have a nice, good-as-new boob that will make everyone happy. I’ve seen quite a few when I got training in gynecologic oncology.
Audley,
they will often build one from skin and have it tattooed afterwards to match the color. Easy and effective.
Just love the old gal as you would like to be loved should you be in her place.
In other words, lie to and humor the “old gal” (vomit), because that’s what Esteleth would want done to her? Patronizing of old women much, dude? Guess what, most old people aren’t going to keel over dead if one disagrees with them on important matters.
Esteleth’s comment at #126 has validated my hunch: that a grandmother described as formidable, loving, and with a good sense of humor would be fine with her granddaughter demurring to go to church. In fact, she accepts her granddaughter just the way she is.
Had Esteleth not updated us, I was going to say that she will be with her grandmother the entire weekend. A few hours apart is not a big deal. “But you’ll wish you spent more time with her when she’s gone!” Yes, speaking with her, or doing things with her. Not merely sitting next to her in silence while some charlatan for Christ blathers on.
Alethea, the Greek analogy does not take education. Allusions to ancient Greece imbue our culture. Not as much as they imbued 19th-century Western culture, perhaps, but just by being raised in any Western country, you grow up with some of it. Our language is full of Greek-derived words for various abstract concepts, especially those we (claim to) admire, like “democracy.” Children’s cartoons, or at least older ones like Astérix or those from Warner Bros., draw on ancient Greece for some plots. You don’t notice it the way fish don’t notice water.
Just_A_Lurker, there’s always “drama llama.”
‘Tis: Best of luck with ‘Tis Herself’s recovery, and please remember to take care of yourself as well as you tend to her.
Giliell: Hang in there. Stay strong. Especially don’t let her get to you via guilt over your kids/her grandkids. Someone with children and their own gaslighting parent(s) could give you better advice than I can on how to walk the fine line between letting them absorb her thinking and cutting her out of your life entirely. I hope this is possible… it’s not always.
You know, I’ve never thought about that– what do they make the nipple out of? Skin?
Yes, it’s skin. Since my wife has a large nipple and areola on her present breast, the surgeon will take part of that tissue to make a new nipple and areola. If her present nipple and areola were small, he’d take skin from some other part of her body, generally the inner thigh, to make a new nipple. Also nipple and areolar tattooing is a commonly used to match the colors.
'Tis Himself, OMsays
I see keenacat beat me in explaining about nipple reconstruction. Also I notice upon rereading my post #170 that ze enlish she are no to good today.
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and liessays
‘Tis,
That is pretty fascinating. I’m sure it will be painful/uncomfortable for your wife, but how awesome is it that they can give her a new breast and nipple?
Sorry, sometimes I just get all awed over medical shit.
janinesays
A nineteen year old Richard Thompson hiding behind both his hair and his band in Time Will Show The Wiser. He has gotten more animated over the decades.
From the 1993 compilation, Watching The Dark: The History Of Richard Thompson, the recording of Shoot Out The Lights is from 1983.
Also from the RT box set, this version of Calvary Cross is from 1986. While every version of the Richard Thompson is stellar, this seems to be the favorite version. It contained Clive Gregson and Christine Collister, a couple that also made great, very dark music.
I usually avoid performances captured on phones but this is actually not bad. When The Spell Is Broken from 2009, solo. Damn!
From the 2010 album, Dream Attic, If Love Whispers You Name. It is a live recording. If only this technology has been around during all of his career.
Better accompaniment?
*shakes head*
This does not even begin to capture everything. Different fans can come up with a different list of his best and not overlap and not be wrong.
Someone with children and their own gaslighting parent(s) could give you better advice than I can on how to walk the fine line between letting them absorb her thinking and cutting her out of your life entirely. I hope this is possible… it’s not always.
I don’t know if it will be. Maybe there’ll be some kind of armistice. It’s not only those problems that actually were there all the time, there’s the additional problem of alcohol and that she’s definetly already having brain damage.
The one thing I know is that I won’t back down.
There will be no “compromise” (i.e. me admitting that I was wrong and she admitting that maybe she should have been more generous given that she knows that I am always wrong but will finally come around).
I’ve been wrong for my whole fucking life. Whenever there was a conflict with my parents it was because I was either stubborn, or hotheaded, or an over-sensitive delicate snowflake, or because I can’t take criticism (tell me, how do you take criticism that starts with “Do you find it responsible to do X”?).
I know that as a youth I sometimes had the power to fight back (oh, but I paid the price. If you’re given the silent treatment from your mother, after a while you’ll confess and beg forgiveness for everything).
Now, having kids, being a part-time single mum, I needed that power for something else and I lost myself.
And this stops NOW.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trollssays
‘Tis, hope all goes with the reconstruction. And I hope the results pleases both you and her.
janinesays
Best of luck to your wife, ‘Tis. I am sure she has skilled people working for her.
Thanks for those links, Janine. I have some of his music, but far from all of it.
Giliell:
And this stops NOW.
Deep respect.
janinesays
Giliell, I got the impression of what happened but not what happened. But situations like that, it is usually a culmination of decades of actions and of things said and unsaid. And I have no idea what to say.
Except this. Please stop beating yourself up.
I know, not particularly useful nor easy. I still find myself obsessing about events decades past that other people have forgotten about.
keenacatsays
Audley,
if you are interested, a visit to our most trusted web search gave this gem to me: http://www.breastreconstruction.org/PersonalStories.html
Besides personal stories you get some pictures of the awesomeness that is breast reconstruction.
theophontes 777says
To all Pharyngulites looking for a little encouragement: Johnny Cash. (Music only)
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and liessays
keenacat,
Thanks! I took a quick look through the pictures and holy shit, that is cool.
What was scary was how young some of the women were– the youngest I saw was 32. :-/
janinesays
Ms. Daisy Cutter, there is more, so much more.
Since leaving Capital Records and traditional music labels, RT has taken control of his releases and offers a lot of live recordings from all over his career. And even that does not cover all that there is.
Funny thing, I think that RT has a kind of tunnel vision about his own career. Try reading his responses to questions online. (Turn out that he is a huge fan of the LA Kings and very knowledgeable of pro hockey. Who would have guessed?) But it is needed, even in his fifth decade of preforming, he remains very active. And while he likes having continuity with the people he works with, he keeps shaking up how he works.
Yeah, RT is about the closest thing I have to a musical deity.
janine
That’s exactly what it is: 33 years of small things.
33 years of not noticing a constant pattern.
At the beginning of this journey I asked myself how I ended up in that mess. I had a happy childhood*. I was never reaped in my life, not abused or neglected.
I can recall a million instances of “not a big deal”. And we all know that everybody has their mistakes and such.
Only that my complete upbringing never prepared me for being a person, it only prepared me for being my mother’s dutifull daughter.
My father recently told my sister who’s been wondering about similar things that, since my grandma cared a lot for her (she’s 6 years my senior), my mother had me so that “she could have a child for herself, too”.
*I’ve been wondering about parallels with Libby Anne and her Quiverfull upbringing: She also says that she had a wonderfull childhood with loving parents, but she wasn’t allowed to be herself either. It was just much harder for me to spot since my parents are liberals.
keenacatsays
Yes, there is a subset of patients that is quite young, between 20 and 40, usually those with a genetic predisposition. Some of those even opt to get bilateral mastectomies as a preventative measure. http://www.breastreconstruction.org/Annie.html
My boyfriends mom had her diagnosis at 43. I think she has had some kind of muscle flap after the lumpectomy (the skin and nipple stayed intact), but if you don’t know she had cancer you barely notice the scars. They are TINY.
I’ve also seen reconstructions after more extensive surgeries up close and let me tell you, this is an art in itself. I was even able to assist during a combined mastectomy/muscle flap operation with contralateral breast reduction (they do this for symmetry reasons). They went to great lenghts to ensure optimal outcome, including propping the patient up in the middle of the whole ordeal to have a look at the effects of gravity and at the symmetry.
keenacatsays
(Also, if you read Annies story to the end, there are step-by-step-photos of the process, including nipple reconstruction. So amazing!)
Giving her a new nipple is the bit I find interesting.
You know, I’ve never thought about that– what do they make the nipple out of? Skin?
I’d never really thought about nipple reconstruction, either: I had always imagined mastectomy as a sort of evacuation of the breast tissue under the skin, rather than an amputation (i.e., leaving the skin, and presumably the nipple, intact). I suppose that’s sometimes true (the first of the case stories keenacat linked to seems to be such a case), but I guess sometimes that can’t give the oncologist the “margin” around the tumor that’s needed, eh?
Both of my parents had breast surgery: My mother had reduction, to deal with back problems, and my father actually had breast cancer (his onco told him about 1 in 1000 cases occurs in a man; dunno if the stats have changed any since then). But since there was no concern for surgical margin in my mother’s case, they were able to preserve her nipples… and we all know how much anyone cares about men’s nipples, right?
Anyway, all the best to ‘Tis Herself; here’s hoping for a swift and happy recovery. The idea of a “happy” surgical recovery may seem odd, but I mean it: The tearing down parts of cancer treatment are all done, right? This is part of the rebuilding part, and it’s a thing of joy.
keenacatsays
Bill:
It depends on the relation of tumor volume to breast volume and on wether the tumor has already infiltrated skin or muscle. If the tumor is small and hasn’t infiltrated anything, there will be a lumpectomy: dislodging the tumor with some safety distance and a check by the pathologist to ensure all margins are tumor-free. Afterwards, there will be radiation therapy to reduce the risk of in-breast relapse.
If the tumor has infiltrated into skin or muscle you need to remove that part. With larger tumors or very disseminated ones you need to remove all of the gland and fatty tissue in the breast, maybe including skin if the safety distance would be too short otherwise.
Nipple conservation depends partly on the type of tumor, as the nipple/areola contain ducts of the mammary gland and a ductal carcinoma might grow there as well. This is why it is usually removed in patients undergoing preventative mastectomy, as well.
In the early days of breast cancer surgery, surgeons would not only remove the mammary gland including skin and nipple, but also the larger and smaller chest muscles, leading to bad functional outcomes. We now know this is not usually necessary.
Hugs (if you want ’em) for what you’re working through. I had a (mostly) happy (and privileged and fortunate) childhood myself, but the part of it that was toxic — my relationship with my father — was always clear, even at the time; it was never a buried secret that my adult self had to learn about. I admire your courage in facing this stuff.
In the early days of breast cancer surgery, surgeons would not only remove the mammary gland including skin and nipple, but also the larger and smaller chest muscles, leading to bad functional outcomes. We now know this is not usually necessary.
I’m in the middle of reading[1][2] The Emperor of All Maladies, and the stories of the “arms race” to remove more and more tissue in the early days of radical mastectomy are truly terrifying; I’m so glad for the distance we’ve come since then. My father had (ca. 1979) a “modified radical” mastectomy, and after it the right side of his chest looked like Meteor Crater… but then, he was a middle-aged, married, overweight man, and nobody (including him) was much concerned about cosmetic issues. He had no end of fun joking about his missing boob.
***
[1] With the usual disclaimer that “reading” really means listening to the audiobook.
[2] I so wish <sup></sup> worked here; I miss proper footnotes!
Nutmegsays
Bill Dauphin:
I’m in the middle of reading The Emperor of All Maladies
Such a good book! If anyone has any recommendations for similar reviews of other diseases (malaria, smallpox, and polio would be particularly interesting), I’d love to hear about them.
KGsays
More good wishes for ‘Tis Herself (that’s a useful coinage, Bill), and gestures of respect and encouragement to Giliell. Too busy for much more.
I’ve also read The Demon Under the Microscope by Thomas Hager (the audiobook of which is read by the same narrator as Emperor of All Maladies, in fact), which is about the discovery and development of antibiotics; I think you’d like that.
Another is Steven Johnson’s The Ghost Map, about the 1854 cholera outbreak in London, and how mapping helped solve the riddle of cholera’s transmission. It also includes part of the story of the development of anesthesia, as part of the personal history of one of the principals in Johnson’s tale. Like many of Johnson’s books, it’s uneven… but on balance it’s good, and interesting to fans of medical history.
My wife is a big fan of what she calls “plague books,” and I know she’s got several she’s enjoyed, including one about yellow fever that was (IIRC) either a Pulitzer or National Book Award winner. A few years ago there were several books about the 1919 flu pandemic, and I know she’s read at least one of those. I’ll try to round up some of her titles and get back to you.
I bought her the audiobook of Daniel Defoe’s The Journal of the Plague Year as a gift, but neither of us has gotten around to listening to it yet.
Why I don’t idolize Anonymous. They have some serious moral blind spots when it comes to women (and not just women, either).
theophontes 777says
@ Bill
Jinx!! ;^)
Just call me psychic! Woohoo!!!
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and liessays
theophontes,
Not my original, either– I’m pretty sure I’ve seen ‘Tis Herself used by other Hordelings in the past. ;)
theophontes 777says
@ Dr Audley
‘Tis Herself
It is rather Hordie/Pharyngulie I must confess. The Hivemind ™ is real.
@ lorence #193
I hate to tell you that the idiots are winning.
On the subject of Pharyngulating: If you want to support the breakaway Pharyngulite Peoples’ Republic of Southern TET, follow the link here and leave a poem. snide remark about the bPPRSTET leadership or just type “.” and hit [submit comment].
Silisays
Yay! Y-Gallery is back up!
With Spirou & Fantasio on the frontpage (well, technically Zorglub and Champignac, but there’s a club). Not that I ship it, but I’m glad it exists.
Now if only I could find Rule 34 Alix and Enak, then my life would be complete.
It also hurts that women’s MMV [“marriage market value”] is hurt by age and partner count. So the ability to excersize SMV hypergamy to ones advantage will have long term affects down the road, but those are hard to measure or predict. Not all that different from how eating a cupcake feels good but goes straight to your thighs. Cock is junk food for chicks.
Wow.
Nutmegsays
Thanks for the book recommendations, Bill! I’ll look into those.
Zugswangsays
onion girl #205:
I just sent an email your way. Thanks for reminding me about the meet-up; I’d almost forgotten about it.
Rey Foxsays
#141: VIVA! Saw them at a tiny club with a too-small audience last fall in STL. Got a concert poster for them that I bought in Boise signed. Shook Anita’s hand, haven’t washed it since.
Um…carry on, everyone.
Silisays
Thanks, Ms. Cutter,
But technically that’s not Rule 34. You’ll notice it’s signed by Jaques Martin (pbuh), himself.
Still, I hadn’t seen it before, so thanks.
carliesays
Just recently read about a tattoo artist who specializes in applying nipples to women who’ve had breast reconstruction. I’d never thought about doing it that way, but a quick search brought up several articles from the last few years.
They’re not quite as close to the disease-book theme, but if you like medical stuff and haven’t already read them, you should check out two books by Mary Roach: Bonk, about research into human sexuality, and Stiff, about work with human cadavers. I’ve never met anyone who’s read either of these who didn’t love them.
Totally thread bankrupt, busy, busy. It’s our 33rd Anniversary tomorrow, so I’ll be gone a while longer, I think we’ll laze about in bed for a few days.
‘Tis, all the best to you and ‘Tis Herself. A friend of mine had a breast removed and it was reconstructed in the same surgical session. All went well, here’s hoping it goes great for your wife too.
Bill, there are some other guys in there (all PUAs) calling that commenter a troll.
I really hope they’re right.
Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OMsays
It’s our 33rd Anniversary tomorrow, so I’ll be gone a while longer, I think we’ll laze about in bed for a few days.
Yay! Happy anniversary! *THE BIGGEST INTERNET HUGS* I was missing you.
—
Thanks for the sympathy, y’all. And *especial hugs* to Menyambal for the kitten. I’m glad you’re back!
To sgbm, I’m not sure whether or not procrastinating here should warrant a chasing-off. On the one hand, I’m so full of work that I might explode. On the other hand, writing papers is really hard, and maybe this helps? I don’t know.
*hugs hugs hugs hugs* to David M.
Thanks to pelamun and Giliell for the offers of help! I found out that I was wrong about the due date for that paper, which is lovely because I decided to give up on it and went to bed all in tears. Now it’s done though. Ms. Daisy Cutter, I don’t really have that option because of the kind of program I’m in. On the bright side, three of my four instructors know each other and have discussed my situation among them, so they probably will be pretty understanding with me if something falls apart. One of them already knows I’m prone to have health problems when I get stressed, because I had to miss her class to go to the ER last quarter when I was having heart palpitations. But thanks for the suggestion, I really wish I could do it :(
Sorry if I missed anybody, here are *hugs* to you :)
—
Hey, Esteleth, your grandma’s awesome! Cool! Giliell, I don’t know what to say except *hugs*. You shouldn’t have to deal with that shit from your mother on top of everything else, but at least it’s good that you’re recognizing how hurtful and unfair this is.
—
My mommy just sent me a picture of my brother with the snow-Yoda he made. He is green (J apparently misted him a spray bottle thingy full of water with green food coloring) wearing a brown Jedi robe and holding a lightsaber. Mom says there were kids across the street who got all excited to see it, and J was all proud of himself :)
ffrancis — thanks for de-cloaking to give that great advice! I’m learning just what you’re talking about. Have done a lot of reading about them and I’m getting used to the heating-up pattern of this burner and when it wants adjustment. My center draft tube is just a hair out of round, which is irritating and making the wick burn ever so slightly unevenly—with the obvious effect on the mantle’s glow. Will be trying teensy, tiny shavings-off of one side of the wick.
Theo — Huggles? For me? Well aren’t you just the cutest ‘lil Theophontes. . .who’s a little theo?
[/chin chucks]
Ms. Daisy and select other horde members—Sorry for neglecting my email this week! xxoo
Unrelatedly: Guess what’ll be going on in the Tampa Bay area, Aug. 27-30? Start looking at this page (NSFW text) about one to two weeks before that, for the lulz. You know, like in St. Paul in 2008.
I. I heard Netflix is producing a US version of House of Cards. Anyone watched the original BBC series? Was it good?
II. I found a youtube channel with Chinese Idioms for kids (skip to the animated videos). It took me some time to find one that has English subtitles, so excuse the bad video quality. But the 25 or so idioms that channel has are genuine Chinese idioms (TM), 100% certified faux Chinese idiom free!
III. German Federal Court (the highest court in civil and criminal matters, though there is the German Constitutional Court as court of last resort) rules that hotels may discriminate based on political grounds. The case in question was about Neo Nazi politicians being denied hotel rooms on private vacations. While this may be ok (a hotel also wouldn’t be forced to rent its facilities to a political party for a convention etc), and discrimination based on race, ethnicity, gender, sexual identity, religion, disability, remains forbidden, the court also ruled that hotels didn’t need to provide a reason for the denial.
So even though I don’t have the slightest sympathies for Nazis, I do hope this ruling is overturned by the Constitutional Court.
(Link to German legal blog blocked? German speakers, you will be confused about Weltanschauung if you only read the OP. The problem of Weltanschauung is discussed in the comments)
IV. discussed the role of male homosexuality throughout Chinese history with a friend today. These stories mostly involve men who were favourites of a ruler, be it duke, king or emperor, depending on the time.
There are two very famous stories, “the sharing of the plum (分桃)”, “cutting of the sleeve （斷袖）”, which have become eponymous with male homosexuality in Chinese. There are also the stories of “Going fishing together (共船而釣)” and the “Rabbit god 兔兒神”, the deity governing love and sex between men. I will blog about these stories hopefully soon, but then I also came across the story of “the man who almost became a male empress”. This relates to an emperor from the 6th century, who was in love with a man whom he granted the name Han Zigao (韓子高). A play was written about this in the Qing dynasty, 1000 years later, and the play is indeed called “The male queen/empress 男皇后/男王后”. However, I haven’t been able to determine what exactly was meant by “almost made him empress”. In China an emperor usually had 100s of wives, ranked into 10 or so categories, 1 empress, a couple of queen consorts, etc. What I would like to know is if that emperor in question was actually considering not to take an empress (offspring would be guaranteed from lesser ranked concubines) and instead give Han Zigao that position…
Re: The PUA troll
No really, Susan Walsh’s place talks like that.
@Sili, regarding RUle 34: Last I checked, there was no “Has to be a fan” clause for Rule 34, it’s just that creators very rarely are the ones making the porn? XD
DAAAYYYUMMMM. Crommunist just linked to that. Everybody go read it. It’s like an orgasm, a brisk breeze off the ocean on a stifling day, and a stadium rock anthem that you get out your lighter for, all rolled into one.
Silisays
I’ve had reason to dislike Brian Dunning of Skeptoid in the past, and now his 300th episode is pissing me off, too.
It’s a cute enough musical fairytale, but why the fuck does he have to make the enemy a gypsy queen?
So a family friend recommended this great Japanese series we should absolutely watch. Web searches indicated it looks like a historical drama.
Dutifully went to Chinese website, looked for it, and then it was a modern time medical drama, emergency surgery, handsome doctor with doctor girlfriend in a coma etc..
Paid 15 bucks for a dagger missing its handle (FUN PROJECT!) and got myself a bigass drinking horn for 25 (I might have to cut it down, I might not be “Viking” Enough for its capacity).
My dad bought a gun owned in 1906 by a Chilcotin Indian that I get almost emotional looking at. My family hunts for food, but we have the luxury of being able to feed ourselves regardless. I guarantee the original owner of this gun relied on it for survival more than once. If you look closely at the buttstock, you can see where the original owner decorated it with tacks, as the Chilcotin people liked to do.
But my favorite part was the little kid, around 7-8 ish, carrying a huge cutlass/saber that was longer than he was tall. Apparently it was his, bought for him, and he let me look at it a little bit. He wasn’t smiling, but I could tell exactly by the look on his little face how he felt. He was by far the happiest person in that entire building. I told him “When I was your age, I would have cut off my left hand to own a sword that cool.” To which his adult minder replied “Wait till he gets it home, he probably will!”
juliansays
But my favorite part was the little kid, around 7-8 ish, carrying a huge cutlass/saber that was longer than he was tall.
I foresee a future as the protagonist of a poorly written fantasy drama or a best selling manga series.
juliansays
Also a child should not be given a cutlass to play with. Not until they’ve had several fencing lessons.
keenacatsays
Ooook I’m back from the bars and have ingested a whooping 1.5 litres of beer and a weird shot of something-or-other, probably involving coconut. And something pink.
(It’s 11:45 pm where I am, so don’t worry.)
This means I’m drunk and needy.
Sadly, the boyfriend went for more partying and let me stagger home all by myself, so I’ll take it out on you people. Sorry.
I’ve been reading Pharyngula for what, 5 years or something? All the time I’ve been lurking and adding my 2 cents about once per year.
Today marks a breakthrough. I found out I didn’t need livejournal or some other crap anymore, but could log in using facebook (I know facebook is just more crap, but I use it all the time anyway).
Angels would have sung if I was less of an atheist.
You people shaped a biiig part of me, mainly my atheism and my feminism. I love you, you sweet baby-eating horde of foul-mouthed sceptics. Don’t ever change.
Every time I run into some asshat, MRA, fundie or other, I know there is one place on the internets where I can go to restore my faith in humanity.
Thank you.
The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)says
Keenacat:
Thank you.
You’re most welcome, and I don’t think I’m taking too much liberty if I say on behalf of the hoarde that the pleasure is ours.
juliansays
Every time I run into some asshat, MRA, fundie or other, I know there is one place on the internets where I can go to restore my faith in humanity.
pelamun
I’ve seen the first episode of Jin.
I can hardly wait to see the rest!
cicely ("Intriguingly Odd")says
Quick pre-Game drop-in.
*hugs* for Giliell. I’d say, save yourself, first (because you have value in and of yourself); then worry about whether you can save your mother.
‘Course, I speak as an ungrateful wretch of a daughter who avoids her own monther like the plague, so I may, just possibly, be biased.
–
My father recently told my sister who’s been wondering about similar things that, since my grandma cared a lot for her (she’s 6 years my senior), my mother had me so that “she could have a child for herself, too”.
IANAP, but it looks to me like that’s where the trouble started, right there. “For herself”.
–
Happy Anniversary, Caine! *champagne*
–
And best wishes to ‘Tis Herself – may surgery be simple, pain minimal, and recovery swift.
Josh, Official SpokesGaysays
Gileill – Rock the fuck on, girl.
Caine– Congratulations to you and the Mister! You two are such a perfect couple; it’s sweet to see your marriage last and last.
Cicely – So, I simmered the smoked pork neck bones for two hours until the meat fell apart into gorgeous little shreds. Then I scraped the marrow from the bones to enrich the stock, adding sauteed celery, carrot, onion and thyme with generous salt and pepper. It smells so good.
Especially since I added the SPLIT PEAS.
On Kittehs— They loves them some hot-burning kerosene lamp. Don’t worry, I’m being very careful where it’s placed and I don’t mean to say they’re trying to jump up on it. They’re treating it as cats do a fireplace; a warm lovely thing much to be slept close to. So it’s on the coffee table in front of me and kittehs are lined up on the back of the sofa right across from it luxuriating in the warmth and basically acting like they’re passed out fucken drunk. It’s very cute.
Caine- Congratulations to you and the Mister! You two are such a perfect couple; it’s sweet to see your marriage last and last.
Aaaw, thank you. ♥ I put it down to us both being equally weird. I just got an email from him, it seems that Midco cable is blocking the nudephotorevolutionary calendar download. Norf Dakota. *sigh*
Jeffrey:
Caine, Happy Anniversary to you and spousal unit, dear girl.
Thank you, Dearest. Outside of a trip to town on Monday, I’m hoping we’ll simply have the chance to be spectacularly lazy for a couple of days. ♥
TLC:
happy anniversary, Caine
Thank you! ♥
John Moralessays
Caine,
I just got an email from him, it seems that Midco cable is blocking the nudephotorevolutionary calendar download.
Just ask; someone with access can easily email it to you.
Ms Daisy Cutter, you are clearly confusing schooling with education.
I guarantee you 100% that I was not born knowing what Athena’s aegis is, or who the (original) Atreides were, and I will also bet you that a lot of western-raised people here still don’t know.
In other words – you’re rather bizarrely accusing me of being a fish unaware of the water I swim in, while all my posts about it have been “Look! Water! Right here! There’s water! See the water!”
that doesn’t change the fact that Ancient Greek mythology is part of the Greek-Roman-Judeo-Christian core of the global dominant culture.
Also it misses the point regarding the cultural dominance issue.
A western person rewriting Greek mythology is playing with elements from their own culture, a western person rewriting Chinese mythology is appropriating another culture and thereby exercising cultural power.
More comprehensive reply later.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trollssays
Caine, conga rats, enjoy your stay with the spouse for your anniversary. The Pullet Patrol is lining up to guard your place. But I really think they want lessons from Esme on how to steal my keys to the grog soaked corn bin.
John Moralessays
pelamun,
A western person rewriting Greek mythology is playing with elements from their own culture, a western person rewriting Chinese mythology is appropriating another culture and thereby exercising cultural power.
“appropriating another culture”?!
(“Mine — all mine! Bwa-hah-hah!”)
Silisays
Care to share the other reasons, just curious.
Nothing with references, but he tends to go off on Libertarian rants.
He misrepresented Silent Spring enough to make the blogsphere go after him, and think he’s still trying to downplay global warming.
As a chemist, it’s easiest for me to spot when he’s wrong there.
High Fructose Corn Syrup was dismissed by him as more unhealthy than sucrose, because they contain the same calories. That’s true, of course, but the same argument could be made for gasoline. The possible problem with HFCS (I’m not a physiologist) is that fructose and glucose may well trigger different responses in the digestive system. We have all sorta enzymes and other proteins that continually monitor the composition of our blood etc. That’s a hella complicated feedback system, and while I have no idea if HFSC is bad or not, but hearing it dismissed with so glib an argument, actually makes me more inclined towards the conspiratory mindset.
Caine, conga rats, enjoy your stay with the spouse for your anniversary. The Pullet Patrol is lining up to guard your place. But I really think they want lessons from Esme on how to steal my keys to the grog soaked corn bin.
Thank you! Hahaha, Esme would be more than happy to do so, I’m afraid. Actually, Esme has mellowed quite a bit, Rubin is taking over as the master troublemaker and he’s getting good at thieving, however, he doesn’t quite have Esme’s skill yet.
Just curious to see if it matched up with mine. Personally his episode defending Scientology just left me mouth agape. Ending with “I can’t imagine why Anonymous+internet is so focused on Scientology” just made me face palm. It was like everyone saying how Occupy won’t tell anyone what their goals are. Seriously, Brian? You think a religion that tried to infiltrate the US government, and use programs to slander and harass people is just like every other? WTF?
Silisays
Gah!
I must have repressed the memory of that one Ing. I thought I’d heard them all.
Thanks for smacking my gob.
John Moralessays
pelamun, historical culture or cultural tradition ain’t something someone owns or that can be appropriated (made one’s own).
de Botton reminds me of a guy who keeps talking about how he doesn’t get gay marriage because “who has the vagina?”.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trollssays
How are you and The Redhead doing?
We both had mild set-backs, me with a weird virus and she with a couple of small blood clots requiring anti-coagulants in a hospital setting. But we are now both back where we should be, and today I trimmed her toenails for the first time since the incident, making it safer for her therapists and/or nurses.
Psychotherapists should be more like priests ? What does this mean, that they should have more sex with their clients and lie to them about sky fairies ?
Literal LOL moment. Well done.
Childermasssays
Attn: Anyone in AL, IN, MO, NH, OK
Today on its blog, the Discovery Institute made a push for creationist bills
Those in those state really need to contact their elected representatives and POLITELY express your opposition to bills the Discovery Institute is telling its people to support.
You can make a difference here. If you don’t contact your representatives and the creationist do, the kids will pay the price. And don’t think that just because Republicans control your legislature that it is hopeless. Oklahomans for Excellence in Science Education has managed to defeat such bills for years in a state which one would think they would not have a chance.
Alethea: Nobody is “accusing” you of anything. You are aggressively missing the points that Pelamun has been patiently trying to bring to your attention.
Read what you want. Don’t read what you don’t want. When you repeatedly lament that you’d really like to be educated about certain cultures but you just don’t have the time, you give the impression you want praise for wanting to do so without putting in any effort.
Morales, #265: You could Google on “cultural appropriation,” you know. There is a considerable body of scholarship about it. Then again, since it’s not “hard” science and since it would require you to actually challenge your own assumptions, I don’t imagine it would do you much good.
Ing, #268: I LOL’ed.
Crudely Wrottsays
Ms. Daisy Cutter @166 replies to me @114:
Just love the old gal as you would like to be loved should you be in her place.
In other words, lie to and humor the “old gal” (vomit), because that’s what Esteleth would want done to her? Patronizing of old women much, dude? Guess what, most old people aren’t going to keel over dead if one disagrees with them on important matters.
Since I went about on all fours and my world extended no higher than you ankles, I have been in the company of the elderly. Old folks. Old guys, old gals, people who had survived and prospered and made it a point to pass something useful on to me. My father made it a point to take me to visit old people he knew so that I could listen to them and learn. What things I did learn. One neighbor had established his Wyoming homestead in 1896. He lived just over the creek and made me welcome. He was pushing eighty when I first remember him.
Since I got my legs under me and my world extended further, there have been so many dear friends who were old and who have since died. For at least two of them I was one of the last reliable companions that they had. I have washed their soiled sheets much as mine were washed by old gals long ago. I brought an old cowboy his last bottle and shared a drink with him from it.
The single best piece of advice I have ever received is by way of my step dad who learned it from his mother. She would say that one needs to be “wise, kind, and a little bit blind”. Following that principle has served me well. Thank you, grandmother.
So, to answer your question, “Patronizing of old women much, dude?” I must assert that in fact I do. I also patronize old men, old guys, old geezers, old mothers, old dears, old teachers, old friends, old mentors and all kinds of old people.
Much as I patronize a trusted merchant or family member. In the same fashion as I patronize this blog. It is a relationship based upon trust and an implicit expectation of positive outcomes.
I am just shy of completing the first full year of my seventh decade. I am now becoming old myself. I dearly hope that in the years ahead that young whippersnappers come and patronize me!
By the way, I’d like to add to my comment at #276 that anyone who pulls that “Now, now, you dear old thing” shite with me when I”m old and decrepit is going to get my cane shoved so far up their ass, their uvula will be spot-welded into their soft palate.
Caine, Happy Anniversary! I wish you and the Mister many more happy years. (And that’s for the rat update. It made me smile.)
Thank you, Hekuni Cat! Chas, Esme & Rubin are all busy chowing down on steamed peas (Yes, Cicely, peas! Evil peas!) and gearing up for a night of mischief making. I finally managed to get my studio arranged in such a way that they can’t do any actual damage or steal important and expensive things. That doesn’t stop them trying, of course. To make up for being so nasty, I make sure to hide liberal amounts of pistachios, banana chips and seed blocks for them to discover.
Crudely Wrottsays
@281
When you are old and decrepit you can, simply by asking, enjoy an exemption from my otherwise good will and supportive efforts of the, well, old and decrepit.
Till then, I will continue to visit, provide rides to the doc or to market, swap stories, learn from, idle away an afternoon and otherwise do what I can to make my elders feel valued and like they still have an active role to play in society. I have observed that when I do so, two are happy.
Crudely Wrottsays
Happy anniversary to you, Caine, and to your husband. Will you be dancing in the conga-rat line? If so, pix?
Large Very Best =)
Rey Foxsays
Oh, it wouldn’t be anything so barbaric as lopping off a foreskin. Would probably just be family and some designated Atheist Poobah reading Chicken Soup for the Soul over the new baby. Just as long as we cloak it in as much pomp and circumstance as we can muster.
Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OMsays
I can’t help it: Stuff always reminds me of songs.
Thank you, because oddly enough, Jewel is waaaaaaaaaaay better than what I was just listening to. I’ll inevitably end up playing Foolish Games over and over for a while.
The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)says
I would like to respectfully request that someone educate me about this whole ritual circumcision with bloodsucking dealie.
I’ve heard of cases of infants contracting herpes from this practice before, but no one could ever explain it to my satisfaction.
To put it crudely, how is putting a child’s penis in one’s mouth not considered some form of sexual abuse?
Oh for fuck sake, Ms Daisy Cutter takes missing the point by thousands of miles for $600. Even Pelamun joins in just a tad, for a lesser sum.
Seriously, how many small words can I use to spell this out? Justalurker got it quite clearly.
Here are some points:
1. Culture, of ANY kind, takes learning. How that can be anything but fucking obvious, I completely fail to understand.
2. There are far too many cultures in the world for any person to become at home in more than a small handful of them.
3. It is a generally good idea to become educated about the world.
Are any of those controversial?
No? OK?
Next, can you spot ANYTHING that I wrote that denies the reality of oppression or cultural appropriation?
I’m waiting…
…
(quotes please)
…
Thanks.
Now can you address the actual issue? Or just stop, perhaps. It’s really, really, really annoying that you’re trying desperately to make me accept a point that was the actual premise that I started with.
In case you’re still interested, the issue is:
* GIVEN the problematic nature of orientalism, fetishization, othering, cultural appropriation etc,
AND
* GIVEN my 3 premises above
THEN: one can have a generally interesting discussion.
Example questions –
When is it appropriate to write about a culture not one’s own?
What is the role of a translator vs an interpreter vs a storyteller?
How can a person who is uneducated in a specific culture tell if an interpretation is faithful or exploitative (and can it even be both?)
OK? Are we clear now? Seriously, you can stop trying to tell me that water is wet, or that racism exists.
To put it crudely, how is putting a child’s penis in one’s mouth not considered some form of sexual abuse?
Well, it’s not done for sexual reasons for one, I would say. As to herpes, that is an interesting one. The child that was recently reported to have died had herpes simplex type 1, which is the one commonly found around and in the mouth (the coldsore virus), so the rabbi would have passed it on to the child that way. Had it been type 2 however, the good mohel may have had some more explaining to do, because that type you can only pick up through sexual contact with someone who is infected.
theophontes 777says
@ Caine
Here is a < for you and a < for Mr.
Instructions:
Combine with 33 like so … < + 3 and < + 3 …. gives you … ♥♥
Instructions:
Combine with 33 like so … < + 3 and < + 3 …. gives you … ♥♥
Aaaaaaaaaaaw, thank you! ♥
theophontes 777says
@ pelamun/Alethea
The Illiad is a case to consider. No-one can really claim there is a negative cultural appropriation at work in its translation into English. (The culture of those times has ceased to exist, at least been transformed beyond recognition in the case of Greece. “Exploitation” seems out of place here.)
The original work is fixed but there are many approaches to translating it. Perhaps it really does need some interpretation or storytelling (eg: Alexander Pope’s embellishment) to carry it across to a new audience.
Everything about the old Greek culture is rather alien to a rank outsider. Even if you are religious and recognise aspects of the old gods, within the new, that is more a liability than an advantage. One would make the mistake as the reader (not necessarily the translator) to project onto the tale. It is only by absorbing a mass of information (including ideally learning the original language) that we can hope to approach any real understanding. English is quite simply unable to carry all the layers of structure and meaning and choices have to be made. If we are concerned that we are being duped by the translator, we can educate ourselves to the level of being able to take on the thing itself. Any go-between is in a power position that can be abused. (But then the same is true for any branch of science.)
chigau (√-1)says
Crudely Wrott
When I am at my end, I would like you (or someone like you) by my bedside.
theophontes 777says
FIFY:
Actually it would be more accurate to say:
No-one can really claim there is a negative cultural appropriation at work in its translation into English or Chinese or Zulu.
I am not even aware if there are Chinese or Zulu translations. They would however meet with exactly the same problems as one meets in English.
Moreover, making the assumption that the tale is somehow an integral, and therefore readily accessible, part of Western Culture, will certainly lead to mistakes in itself – by creating a sense of equivalences that do not exist. One may be more mislead by apparent (and non-universal) familiarity, and hence further off the mark, than looking at it completely from the outside.
(And hell, yeah there are a lot of universal aspects to the tale that pretty much any person and any time or culture can identify with. This is a particular reason why this has so endured.)
chigau (√-1)says
I fucking hate fucking Daylight Saving Time and I would dance if it Died In A Fire.
McCthulhu, now with Techroline and Retsynsays
Laughing Coyote @289:
“I would like to respectfully request that someone educate me about this whole ritual circumcision with bloodsucking dealie.”
I would be willing to bet good money that the practice started with some prehistoric shamanistic mumbo-jumbo about blood giving you power or control and seeped or oozed into the Jewish religion. There’s bound to be a written excuse for it to make up for the weirdness. The most laughable thing is that if these were instructions from a deity, it’s a very fucking ignorant deity. The sky-critter was completely unaware of infectious diseases, the obvious depravity of pedophilia and no real reason to do it in the first place. If the Jewish community can’t get red-faced over this oblivious bunk there’s something seriously wrong with them.
I should add that there’s a video of Hitchens debating a rabbi and Hitch specifically mentions the penis sucking circumcisions. The rabbi assures everyone that this silly practice died out long, long ago. Welcome to Liars For Moses.
The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)says
McCthulhu: Liars for moses. Huh. I was watching an episode of Dr Phil with the ex and we both ended up getting so mad she turned it off. There was this woman from an ultra religious jewish community who had been religiously pressured into marrying a man she didn’t like who was insecure and didn’t want to let her out of the house, and he had this Rabbi on the show, and he seriously did not seem to give a fuck about the shit she suffered, just wanted to keep defending the religion and dismissing her experiences like a pompous ass, with a bunch of token “What happened to you was very unfortunate but”.
At one point he even said “That may be one of the most antisemitic things I ever heard on tv!”
keenacatsays
Well, it’s not done for sexual reasons for one, I would say. As to herpes, that is an interesting one. The child that was recently reported to have died had herpes simplex type 1, which is the one commonly found around and in the mouth (the coldsore virus), so the rabbi would have passed it on to the child that way. Had it been type 2 however, the good mohel may have had some more explaining to do, because that type you can only pick up through sexual contact with someone who is infected.
This is not entirely true. HSV-2 is indeed found primarily in genital herpes infections, but it can and does sometimes produce oral infections. HSV-1, on the other hand, frequently causes genital infections (depending on the population up to 50% or more of all cases).
The site preference mainly shows in how often they produce recurrences, with oral HSV-2 producing fewer and milder than all other combinations.
Additionally, in a newborn up to six weeks, a HSV-2 infection is likely to be the result of perinatal infection, so be careful when assessing the probability of sexual abuse.
Punch line: No kissing or oral-genital contact with cold sores, no sex whatsoever with genital sores (transmission during latency is rare). Also, if you are pregnant and have a history of genital herpes, you will want to let your OB/GYN know and prepare for a c-section.
consciousness razorsays
When is it appropriate to write about a culture not one’s own?
I don’t know. Never?
Or it’s when you do know what you’re talking about. That seems to mean you have to make it your own in a sense, but what you make is unavoidably going to be different than the original.
I can read Homer (et al?), and you could draw a line between us while saying we’re part of “the West.” The fact remains that I’m obviously not an ancient Greek, so it isn’t my culture. I don’t hear their stories the way they heard them. There’s this Westernosity we have in common, but that’s only a model and one has to remember there are lots and lots of details being left out of it in order to make it somewhat useful some of the time.
For that matter, I have to accept that I’m largely ignorant about modern Western culture, even as one of its members. I’m simply not going to understand most of it and never will, so I’m bound to misrepresent it, unless I break it up into little pieces and only worry about the ones I have any chance of understanding.
What is the role of a translator vs an interpreter vs a storyteller?
I don’t understand the question. I suggest you make it easier to answer, so I won’t have to think very much. ;)
How can a person who is uneducated in a specific culture tell if an interpretation is faithful or exploitative (and can it even be both?)
I think one could tell to some extent, if one is carefully looking for ways it’s presented too simplistically, in a biased perspective, or how a person’s or group’s behavior isn’t given a believable motivation. That sort of thing would be a pretty good indication and doesn’t generally require a detailed understanding of a particular culture, just a fairly decent model of human behavior in general. Beyond some obvious clues like that, if you aren’t part of the culture in question, I guess you couldn’t tell the difference. (And I don’t think it can be both.)
Hi there
Thatnk you all for your support and kind words
You are truely a great help for me at the moment.
At the moment, I feel relieved.
I feel like Jennifer Connelly in “Labyrinth” when in the end she tells the Goblin King that he has no power over her.
The spell is broken.
I am sorry for my kids. I am really sorry that they’ll miss out on many things now, but well, it’s probably better for them in the long run. And I won’t have them held hostage in order to bring me back in line.
On the bright side:
Antibiotics are wonderfull stuff. The very, very sick kid I had yesterday is out and about again.
Bad news: her luttle sister starts to develop the exanthema, too, and I feel like I caught it, too.
I only wished that I could have the nice pink strawberry flavoured juice instead of the brick-sized bitter pills.
Caine
Happy anniversary
Squigitsays
When is it appropriate to write about a culture not one’s own?
Well, I was going to link to the Wikipedia page on Postmodernist Anthropology but it is awful. And I mean really, really awful.
But that should give you something to google and it should help. Then google “critiques of Postmodernist Anthropology”.
However, I think there’s a difference between representing (or attempting to represent and/or interpret) a culture and appropriating a culture (or aspects of a culture).
For example: New Ageism/and other apocalyptic scenarios and the idea of the end of the world based on the Maya calendar=appropriation. Anthropologists, archaeologists, art historians writing about the Maya calendar and the supposed end of the world=representation.
How can a person who is uneducated in a specific culture tell if an interpretation is faithful or exploitative (and can it even be both?)
I think, yes, it can be both. For example, using information regarding a culture to achieve your own political ends that are not really beneficial or relevant to the group you are representing. As for how to tell: I think it would be almost painfully obvious. And if you read something about a specific culture group that you’re not familiar with, look for critiques of what you’ve read as well.
Sorry, I know I’m a terrible writer and my post may not be too clear (plus I’m experiencing a bit of insomnia right now, so I’m not exactly thinking clearly), but I tried to contribute to something that I thought might be an interesting discussion. When the rest of the house wakes up and I don’t run the risk of infuriating anyone, I’ll try to remember to rummage through my stuff to see if I can find anything to further help.
John Moralessays
Culture, eh?
So… the People’s Republic of Pharyngula already exists in the cyber-memetic realm.
(Has it not a culture?)
theophontes 777says
@ John Morales
So… the People’s Republic of Pharyngula already exists in the cyber-memetic realm.
It has gone even further than that. The breakaway Pharyngulite People’s Republic of South TET is growing from strength to strength.
it’s not that easy. Western anthropologists, linguists and others waltzing into the space of indigenous peoples and “representing” their culture has increasingly been an issue over the last decades.
Even for history, I think it would apply. Though the good historian strives to be a translator of some sorts.
theophontes 777says
@ rorschach
Dual nationality is allowed, inward investment encouraged.
It is a gorgeously large TET, with acres of space in spread out park-like settings. to romp in. We have our own resident godbot (both very squeeky and chewy at the same time) and free grog and cookies. There is a picture here and a detail picture here.
actually I can’t see it due to a rights dispute (involves all UMG and Sony content I guess).
I’d need to switch on my VPN. Is it worth it?
Don’t misunderstand me, though. I’m not running around through the world crying APPOPRIATION, APPROPRIATION all the time, or boycott westerners working on non-western stuff. Heck, I read the books of western historians on Asian history. But I try not to ignore the problem of cultural dominance while doing so…
theophontes 777says
@ pelamun
It is a kind of parody of all that can go wrong ito appropriation. It is a video that was made for the film “Get Him to the Greek” (designed to make one cringe). Still picture of Aldous Snow in “African Child” video. (The video is worse.)
drbunsen le savant fousays
theophontes: On the contrary, that video is hilarious! It’s clearly taking the piss out of the very phenomenon you describe.
drbunsen le savant fousays
Ah, I see that was your intention after all :)
drbunsen le savant fousays
Gileill:
but for the first time in years I feel like there’s hope for me.
Congratulations, friend. I know how hard won this victory/beginning is for you. May you always feel thus.
I absolutely applaud your decision to walk away. I wonder if any of the literature on the kinds of damage and (mal)adjustment involved in dealing with the personality disorders of others, such as Walking On Eggshells, would be of help to you in unpacking what came before as you move ahead.
-=-=-=-
Caine! Many happy monkey for your anniversary :)
love moderately ॐsays
The Sailor,
for these voters, the fact of the war led to a search for a justification for it, which led them to infer the existence of ties between Iraq and 9/11.
Or they could have been watching Faux News and listening to the administration’s propaganda. There’s no reason to think people made up the scenario when it was laid out before them by the right wing press.
No, that’s an insufficient explanation. It only tells us where they might have picked up the idea in the first place. It doesn’t explain how they cling to it later when they are exposed to contradictory evidence. Joseph at Corpus Callosum touched on this, but here are the researchers themselves:
«We characterize this explanation as being about the information environment: it implies that if voters had possessed the correct information, they would not have believed in the link. Underlying this explanation is a psychological model of information processing that scholars have labeled “Bayesian updating,” which envisions decision makers incrementally and rationally changing their opinions in accordance with new information (Gerber and Green 1999). […]
How can we distinguish empirically between the informational explanation and the social psychological explanation? If the information environment explanation is accurate and the belief is explained by incorrect information given or suggested by the administration, then we would expect correct information given by the administration to reduce rates of belief in the link. However, if the belief is maintained through social psychological processes, then we would expect little change in the face of correct information given by the administration. To distinguish empirically between these hypotheses, we need to present respondents who believe in this link with information from the Bush administration itself that casts doubt on the link. If voters show a willingness to change their minds in the face of this information, we can conclude that the belief in the link was a product of incorrect (prior) information given or implied by the administration. However, if they show resistance to the correct information, then social psychological processes are likely to be at work. […]
Because we felt that President Bush himself would be the most trustworthy source of information for these Republican partisans, we emphasized the newspaper article by reading the full quote to respondents while showing them the newspaper clip. The exact wording of the challenge was:
let’s talk about Iraq. As you see in these quotes, the 9/11 Commission found that Saddam Hussein was not behind the September 11 attacks. President Bush himself said, “This administration never said that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated between Saddam and Al Qaeda.” What do you think about that? [show newspaper clips]
[…] To determine whether a respondent was showing Bayesian updating (the willingness to change one’s mind in the face of contradictory information from a trusted source) or motivated reasoning (resisting contradictory information), we analyzed our data in two different ways. First, we examined whether our respondents deflected the information, and we categorized the strategies that they used to do so. Second, to conduct a more stringent test of the motivated reasoning hypothesis, we examined whether respondents attended to the contradictory data at all. Lupia (2002) argues that Bayesian updating happens in three stages: to successfully change opinion, a piece of information must be attended to, remembered, and used in decision making. The first stage, attention, is a prerequisite for the second and third stages. By coding whether our respondents attended to the information we produced a minimum estimate for motivated reasoning, which can also happen at the second or third stages.
We coded attentiveness according to whether the interviewee gave any verbal indication of having attended to the challenge. It is possible that some of our respondents did attend to the information, but did not verbalize or demonstrate that attention. To guard against this, we allowed minimal demonstrations or verbalizations to count as having attended to the challenge, and we did not judge the respondent’s reasons for resisting the information; if the respondent simply said “I don’t believe it,” and gave no reason, we considered that the respondent had attended to the information. […]
Only one respondent changed his mind about a link between Saddam and 9/11 (although not about voting for Bush) based on the evidence we presented[….]
The most popular strategy was to quickly switch the topic to other good reasons that the war in Iraq was justified. This strategy was used by nearly one in three respondents and was the single largest category of responses to our questions about the perceived link. This interviewee downplays the significance of the question about the link without actually responding to the question: “There is no doubt in my mind that if we did not deal with Saddam Hussein when we did, it was just a matter of time when we would have to deal with him.” […]
These respondents do not deny the lack of evidence but simply defend the actions of the president. They empathize with the difficulty of his decision, and give him the leeway to make mistakes. Thus, attitude bolstering involves both switching topics from the merits of the link between Iraq and 9/11 and adding other plausible reasons for having gone to war in Iraq. […]
Examples of [the selective exposure] strategy include: “I don’t know. I don’t know anything about . . . where and what we’re going after.” and “I’m gonna pass on this one, for now.” The respondents in this category were either unwilling to put their knowledge of the state of evidence up to the interviewer’s scrutiny, or were generally puzzled about events. These respondents fit perfectly into the expectations of scholars of motivated reasoning, who predict simple disengagement with data that contradicts one’s beliefs. […]
This respondent [using the strategy of disputing rationality] never offered a substantive reason for her belief in the link. Rather, she distances herself from factual reasoning altogether by grounding her justification in subjectivism—“we still can have our opinions.”
These respondents understand the challenge evidence and continue to believe in the link, even when faced with this lack of confirming evidence. However, they do not offer reasons for a continuing belief in such a link. We suggest that this sort of reasoning method, offering no substantive reason for believing in something other than personal opinion, is more common than most members of a democracy would generally care to admit (Billig 1989; Garfinkel 1967; Gilbert and Mulkay 1984; Pollner 1974; see also Shi-xu 2000). […]
People who displayed inferred justification assumed that since a politician they trusted had begun this war, there must be a good reason for it. Moreover, as the 9/11 attacks were the most visible foreign policy event of recent years, they assumed 9/11 was the reason for the war and actively resisted information suggesting otherwise. We found seven clear examples of inferred justification in the interviews. A paradigmatic example is the following:
There’s one gal that I was talking to and she don’t believe that we should stay in Iraq, like, right now. She don’t believe in all of those innocent people dying. I believe that also but there must be a reason why we’re still over there or we wouldn’t be over there still. We would’ve pulled all our troops outta there. Or at least most of them anyway.
This respondent’s recall of a conversation leads her to search for reasons why U.S. troops are “still over there” and suggests that the answer must emanate from the self-evident fact that we are, indeed, “still over there”. The existence of the situation itself is used to infer what must be true about the world for the situation to exist, as in the examples of the Tom Sawyer studies and uninformed response bias discussed above. On such a high-stakes issue as going to war, a leader must have an extraordinarily good reason for wanting to behave in this way. […]
Another respondent says: “I don’t think that if we weren’t attacked we would just go in and start shooting up the place. I think a lot of it was getting even.” These respondents argue that Iraq must have been directly involved, because the administration would not have randomly invaded a harmless country. They use the war itself as a heuristic leading them to conclude that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11, and for some of them this heuristic is strong enough to allow them to discount contradictory information. […]
We have shown in this article that when presented with correct information about the lack of a link between Iraq and Al Qaeda from a trusted source, most of our respondents deflected this information. The only exceptions were respondents who denied having believed in the link at all (7 respondents out of 49) and one who did use the information to change his mind about the link. We have also shown that one-third of the respondents coded as average or below average in information simply ignored the challenging information altogether, thus not meeting the most elementary prerequisite for Bayesian updating. To summarize, our evidence suggests that the information environment argument is overstated.»
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and liessays
chigau:
I fucking hate fucking Daylight Saving Time and I would dance if it Died In A Fire.
You and me both. Fuck Daylight Savings Time right in its fucking ear.
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
guh. I can’t change my nym?
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
Alright then. pelamun,
Ah yes, I was imprecise. I specifically meant Congress as mentioned in Art. I.
Well then, the answer is “no” without an asterisk.
I was gonna write that changing the way Congress is elected would be more important,
It’s hard for me to decide which, but changing just Congress would still be awesome.
but I do remember speculations about Bloomberg running as an independent in 2008. The idea was to amass enough electors so he would be able to make a deal with one of the other candidates, and become something like a prime minister. It could work in theory.
It would require some finagling. Such a candidate would have to pre-arrange a legal contract with their potential Electors, much like AE is attempting. And then hope hope hope that the Supreme Court allows the validity of such an arrangement. There are already Constitutional provisions to deal with normal cases when no candidate wins a majority of electors. I think AE’s plan is clever, but it’s a coin-toss as to whether the Court would allow it.
But as I said, these are all daydreams.
Eh. A couple of options are plausible, not just possible.
Remember that states control their own elections, not the federal government. And several states, including several big, important states, have referenda at the ballot box which amend their constitutions, regardless of what the state legislatures think.
So it is possible to bypass the parties, in these states, and write IRV or some other preference voting system directly into the state constitution. You can be sure that both major parties would propagandize against it in swing states, but the four “bigger” minor parties do get their voices heard somewhat, and in solid-blue or solid-red states the minority party might be supportive too. (For instance, the Republican Party of California, having nothing to lose in the legislature, might like to disrupt things by trading some Democrats for Greens.)
It’s “just” a matter of gathering signatures, and then doing standard campaign advertisements and GOTV efforts, probably a few election cycles in a row so that voters eventually get used to the idea.
McCthulhu, now with Techroline and Retsynsays
Love Moderately @319:
“We suggest that this sort of reasoning method, offering no substantive reason for believing in something other than personal opinion, is more common than most members of a democracy would generally care to admit (Billig 1989; Garfinkel 1967; Gilbert and Mulkay 1984; Pollner 1974; see also Shi-xu 2000)”
Oh…my…FSM. The entire country may as well just bend over now and place a sign on its derrière saying ‘INSERT PORCUPINE HERE.’
McCthulhu, now with Techroline and Retsynsays
@mikelaing: Thank you for posting the linky to the water rocket. I have been looking for neat things to get my little girl for her birthday and that’s almost identical to the rocket I had when I was little.
Yes, of course, Crudely, one cannot possibly have good will toward or make supportive efforts toward the old without being a condescending fuckwad who “humors” them and believes them unable to hear unpalatable truths.
So, you and Sarah Palin: Did you take lessons in fauxlksiness from her, or did she take them from you? How about passive-aggressive assumptions — who mentored you in those?
Alethea:
Oh for fuck sake, Ms Daisy Cutter takes missing the point by thousands of miles for $600.
Alethea, if I or anyone else in this thread had insisted that you learn about every other culture out there, or that you were a horrible racist for not doing so, you might have a point.
And, no, culture “of ANY kind” does not necessarily take learning, at least not the conscious sort that requires effort. How many fucking times does it have to be explained to you that there is a difference between learning the aspects of ancient Greek culture that are reserved for classrooms and scholarly books, such as what an “aegis” is; and learning the aspects that have survived into Western popular culture, such as the expression “sour grapes”? You pick up the latter by osmosis.
Oh, and the fact that I (probably) don’t have to explain the term “osmosis” to you is another indicator of how influential ancient Greek culture remains, 2,500 years on.
I’m done with this topic. Pelamun can keep trying if he desires.
andrewriding: Not much different from karlvonmox, just whinier and more verbose. WAAAAH UR PRIVILEGED BCUZ YOU HAVE TEH VAJAYJAY!! IMA NEVER GONNA TRY TO TALK TO A CHICK AGAIN!!!
Good. I had no idea that by making one insulting internet comment I could effect positive change in the world.
I started learning the Devanagari script, and interestingly enough ॐ is a special character.
I would have expected ओम् (om) or ओम (because I’m learning the script for Hindu, not for Sanskrit), but there is of course the candra bindu, the “moon like thing” here ँ which in Hindi stands for nasalised vowels, but in Sanskrit could also stand for a syllabic nasal “ṃ”. So ॐ is a ligature of ओ and ँ …
Facepalms at self. But the I and U letter keys are next to each other, is my defence.
Theophontes, fired up my VPN, saw the video. Wow. Speechless. Downloaded it so I can have access to it whenever I need to independent of VPN.
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
David,
No, why? The two-party system is built into the big-C Constitution. As I never tire to explain, that’s because 1) there’s no separation of head of state and head of government; 2) the election of the POTUS is an election of a single person, not a whole party or something;
Well, maybe you’ll explain it again? Of course I have seen you say these things many times, and I’ve tried to get it, and I think I may have asked you to explain before, but honestly I have never been able to understand why either of these points are relevant to the number of parties. Your 3 may might follow if 2 is relevant(?) but I’m just stumped from the beginning.
(The election of the President is almost invariably going to be from one party or another. That may be why I don’t understand 2. If we get a President then it probably means they came from a party.)
theophontes 777says
@ Ms. Daisy Cutter
Oh, and the fact that I (probably) don’t have to explain the term “osmosis” to you is another indicator of how influential ancient Greek culture remains, 2,500 years on.
Words like lichi and mango and tea are indicators of how influential ancient Chinese culture remains 4000 years on.
Ok, that was a little facetious, but I am trying to make a point. We don’t really stand so far “outside” of these old cultures. Their basic life circumstances paralleled our own forebears … wherever they were (I am neither Greek nor Chinese.) The Noah myth for example is an important one (for very obvious reasons) in many diverse cultures including Chinese.
And the past within ones own culture differs substantially more than a the difference between the cultures of contemporary Greek or Chinese school-kids.
And what to say about cross cultural hybrids (myself included)? I wouldn’t exaggerate this unnecessarily.
(Not that I in anyway endorse a video like Aldous’s. I’m with you in such cases.)
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
Heh. To me, too. These are entirely frivolous nyms, and when I tire of them and run out of new ideas I’ll use strange gods again.
Theophontes, I would disagree that the influence of ancient Chinese culture parallels that of ancient Greek culture in the West. Tea is a relatively recent import to the West, lychee nuts even more recent.
China is certainly a world power and has been such in the ancient past, but only very recently has Western culture even begun to approach it in anything but an exoticizing manner, whether fetishizing it or demonizing it. I’m not that old, and the cartoons I watched as a kid were unfortunately not devoid of cone-hatted, buck-toothed, sing-song-speaking stereotypes (or other racist stereotypes). Ancient Greece, OTOH, was seen as “white” and therefore was treated in popular culture in a playful but not demeaning manner.
There are certainly universal aspects to all cultures, such as myths of origin or certain power dynamics. But this universality is expressed in a myriad of ways, and the commonality can be stretched only so far before you begin to run into significant differences that hinder communication and understanding — even in an era when the fruits of modern technology are flattening differences between disparate cultures.
I can’t speak to the experiences of “cross-cultural hybrids.” I’ve seen my share of the writings of bicultural people who express feelings of alienation in both cultures, but I wouldn’t presume to expand on them; it’d be presumptive.
but I wouldn’t presume to expand on them; it’d be presumptive.
I rite gud. Me and Kevin with his gaggling women.
theophontes 777says
@ pelamun
Also, nitpick: mango is mostly likely of Tamil origin.
This does not detract from my point.
does show a western bias here. I think other cultures were able to come up with their own flood myths all by their own…
Shorthand applied for the current audience, I could describe the Noah myth as equivalent to the Hen San Mudi myth if this was a Dai audience. (I dare you to google the story ;)
and neither tea nor lychee date back 4,000 years back
Does “osmosis” date back that far (hell. does the average person even realise it is ancient Greek?) The first dynasties go back about 4000 years (Xi?). Chinese has impacted our culture for quite a long time, that is enough to make the point.
@ SG
when I tire of them and run out of new ideas I’ll use strange gods again.
I can’t really imagine you running out of ideas nor being upset with people using SG.
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
So, I saw Piers Morgan (bleh) interviewing Ron Paul (double bleh) the other day. The idiot asked the asshole how he thought about gay marriage as a personal and religious matter, not a political matter.
I wonder if this was an aberration, maybe he had a minor stroke and forgot his usual talking points, but maybe he is actually starting to change his mind.
I can’t find a transcript, but as I remember at the time, the asshole seemed to respond unequivocally that gay marriage is a Good Thing, that if people are happy then they are doing what’s right for them.
He never got a chance to talk some more about the False Rape Society on the MRA hate group thread.
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
Maybe that’s what he’s always thought, and it was only ostensibly separating the question from politics that allowed him to answer clearly. In which case, we can expect that he’ll continue being dead weight at best, and an obstacle more often.
I can’t speak to the experiences of “cross-cultural hybrids.” I’ve seen my share of the writings of bicultural people who express feelings of alienation in both cultures, but I wouldn’t presume to expand on them; it’d be presumptive
Definitely. I can speak to that. But probably another topic. Also I’ve been lucky that I was brought up bilingually, including the written language of the less dominant culture (less dominant also in the sense that it was not the culture in which I grew up in geographically speaking).
I’ve met bicultural people who were cut off from one of their cultures. I can’t claim to know how that would feel either.
Giliell, thank you. ♥ I smiled when I saw you on flickr this morning, thanks for that. Congrats on walking away from the toxic swamp that can be family. It’s not for everyone, but it worked well for me.
theophontes 777says
@ Ms Daisy Cutter
Ancient Greece, OTOH, was seen as “white” and therefore was treated in popular culture in a playful but not demeaning manner.
Don’t be freaked out by this but in South Africa, when I was growing up, Chinese where officially “Honorary Whites”. (Yeah, all this got really weird.. So glad we’ve moved on – even if there is a way to go still.)
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
I lol’d. But rutee, now I’m dying to know, what is MRM?
theophontes 777says
@ pelamun
I’ve been lucky that I was brought up bilingually
Touche pussycat. I was brought up bilingually (Afrikaans and English), but tended to Afrikaans until I started school. I lived in The Netherlands after ‘varsity and spoke Dutch (I was not brought up to speak it, but was exposed to the language and culture via my grandparents.) Now I live in China and spend my days with “Chinglish” at work (when I am not skiving on TET)
osmosis doesn’t, but you’re comparing apples and oranges here.
Osmosis isn’t Ancient Greek in the sense of that it was the ancient Greeks who coined that word, but it’s part of the international scientific vocabulary Europeans coined in the process of modernisation and industrialisation. Apparently acc to Etymonline:
1867, originally endosmose (1830s) “inward passage of a fluid through a porous septum,” from Fr. endo- “inward” + Gk. osmos “a thrusting, a pushing,” from othein “to push, to thrust,
In a sense though that shows how ingrained Ancient Greek lexical material had become in various European languages, similar to how Japanese scholars coined scientific terms using Chinese lexical material in the 19th century. (I don’t have the access to the East Asian dictionaries now to check the word history of the CJK word for “osmosis”)
Ancient Greek fables, Homer etc have been around for a long time, and they are part of the foundation European culture has built upon. Sour grapes is just one example (and one that will not work in every European language), but also concepts of a hero like Hercules, the gods on the Olymp, also of course ideas about governance….
No-one is denying that Chinese culture has influenced European culture. Of course it has. There are also certain human universals, and indeed many myths have common traits. But no-one ever denied this. But that’s really not the question here now, is it.
(Also my pet peeve relates more to Chinese nationalists always clamouring about their 6000 years of history. It wasn’t really about anything you said. You probably aren’t a Chinese nationalist anyway.
The first dynasties go back about 4000 years (Xi?).
If you mean Xià, it’s estimated to be around 2000 B.C.E. There are some archaeological discoveries, but it remains unclear if it really was a dynasty in the sense the Shāng Dynasty was one (from 1,600 B.C.E.).
Squigitsays
it’s not that easy. Western anthropologists, linguists and others waltzing into the space of indigenous peoples and “representing” their culture has increasingly been an issue over the last decades.
Yeah, I didn’t mean to imply that it was that simple in my comment nor did I mean to imply that the line between “representation” and “appropriation” is always clear. The issue is a lot more complex, with more variables and views than I could possibly convey in a single comment or blog post. It takes reading histories of science (I’m speaking specifically from the perspective of an anthropology student in the US) and the relationships with indigenous groups to even begin to understand.
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
CC,
To sgbm, I’m not sure whether or not procrastinating here should warrant a chasing-off.
:) It’s all up to you. For some folks it helps, for some it don’t.
theophontes 777says
@ pelamun
If you mean Xià, it’s estimated to be around 2000 B.C.E.
Heh, even though I live in China, I will likely have to read a Western scholar to learn more about this. (But I will remain critical!)
As things are, I just don’t have the energy left at the end of the day to learn to read – I will never attain that level at least.
I personally have always been more interested in history than archaeology (so before coming to Pharyngula I didn’t even know the Exodus from Egypt didn’t have any archaeological evidence), so I don’t pretend to know much about the Xià debate. Because in the written records you only find myths about Xià. The period where Chinese writing “explodes” is the Chunqiu era and that’s where Shang is already on the decline (8th c. B.C.E.).
I do seem to remember though that there was a debate in the Chinese academic community about Xià. Some scholars saying that it all was a myth, and some trying to get the most out of the archaeological evidence (which would be what the government wants of course).
Before catching up on the historical/archaeological discussion going on…
I went to my first drag queen performance last night. What fun! The boyfriend of one of my brother’s close friends performed, and IMO he was the best out of all them, and perhaps the best-looking, although the one who danced with barely a rest during “River Deep Mountain High” (Celine Dion version) was a close second for me. I’d go to another show gladly!
On the downside: I must enjoy banging my head against invisible walls or something. Mom once again started with her “men make better waiters/bartenders/bosses than women” crap at the restaurant we went to before the show. I could point out time and again that men can be just as horrible, if not worse, and she’ll brush it off, leaving me seething. I almost texted J, my best friend and another friend, “It’s official: My mother hates women being in positions of power, or pretty much anywhere near where men tend to work. Remind me of this when I start to wonder if I’ll ever move out of the house.” *sigh* I’d have ordered another drink to numb myself, but reminded myself that the safest place to get buzzed while depressed is home.
Really, that conversation was just a reminder that I could be the best bartender, waitress, whatever, and there are still people who will whine because I don’t have my genitals on the outside of my body. Christ, now I really need a drink, or something to stab and punch.
Other bright spot: The food was good. I’m going to suggest the place to J next time we meet up.
Nutmegsays
meta, upthread:
I know the choice is up to the individuals writing, but I’d really appreciate it if we could do away with the “die in a fire” wishes for things we don’t like. I’m sure I’m not the only person here for whom this can be a trigger. Could we just use “step on a lego”?
***
I had a bunch of friends over for appetizers and dessert fondues last night. I don’t get to do this often, because I live with my parents and I’m pretty far away from the rest of the group.
One of my friends was raised in a conservative Christian denomination, and, although she’s not serious about religion, she’s definitely retained some conservative characteristics. She was talking last night about how when she and her fiance have kids, they will spank them. I brought up the recent study that shows this does more harm than good, but apparently evidence is not as important as ideology. *sigh*
Later in the evening, her fiance was making some comments about how the butch lesbians on a rugby team were completely unattractive (who the fuck cares what he thinks about them?). My friend then said that she didn’t like the bicurious women either, because they were “just indecisive”. ARGH! And of course I couldn’t come up with any rebuttals that wouldn’t either a) start a big argument or b) out me as questioning, which I definitely don’t want this couple to know about me.
They know that I don’t put up with more blatant homophobia, but I doubt they even realized how homophobic their remarks were. And, well, the female friend sometimes pings my not-entirely-straight-dar, and the comments about indecisive women just increased that suspicion – I hope this marriage is the right choice for her.
Other than those comments, it was a good night, and I just finished having more dessert fondue for breakfast. (Yes, breakfast in the afternoon. I needed my sleep.)
***
Geese! I just saw a flock of about a dozen geese! It’s officially spring now.
***
PTI: Here’s some *grog of your choice*. We can be frustrated with our friends and family members together.
Ugh, Daylight Savings Time. And an off-kilter sleep schedule independent of DST. And seeing Donnie Darko last night, which did some … odd things to my dreams. Not all unpleasant, just odd.
Bill, #194:
My wife is a big fan of what she calls “plague books,” and I know she’s got several she’s enjoyed, including one about yellow fever that was (IIRC) either a Pulitzer or National Book Award winner.
CC, #217: That really sucks. I’m glad you have instructors on your side, in any case. I hope you manage to pull through okay both health-wise and grade-wise.
Sailor, #220: WTF? And in Berkeley, of all places?
Nerd, #269: Glad you and Redhead are doing better.
KG, #312: “A load of cobblers, I thought.” Yeah. It won’t last.
McCthulhu, #323: We might have more of a chance if a great many people on the nominal “left” were willing to treat politics like the blood sport it is, rather than fap about “civility” and act as though all our opponents are reasonable people who will eventually listen to reason.
Theophontes, #346: I’m a bit surprised, admittedly, but not freaked out. Race relations in the U.S. aren’t a proxy for race relations in the rest of the world, and I’ve seen some people stumble unwittingly into arguments by assuming otherwise. Big hot button in particular: The treatment of Eastern Europeans in Western Europe, which is (at least sometimes) referred to as “racism” in Europe. This nomenclature offends some anti-racism people in the U.S.
SGBM, #347: Men’s Rights Movement.
Pelamun, #349: Thanks for explaining that better than I could.
Nutmeg, #355: I’m happy to not use “die in a fire,” but, no, I’m not going to stop insulting jerks by wishing baroque and highly unlikely deaths on them that, very likely, nobody has ever experienced. People who wish to be protected from any and all violent metaphors can go hang out on Shakesville, which a friend of mine left because Melissa’s nasty little minions screamed at her for wishing aloud that pedo-priests would be flogged in the streets. Or the Slacktiverse, where they fucking warn for birth, and even birth metaphors, because a few people had unpleasant labors. Fuck that mentality.
As I said, I will pointedly not use “step on a lego” because I associate it with over-the-top language policing from the sorts of people who misuse social justice as a way to bully others and not be called on it. And, yes, they exist. This has been a sore point in the LiveJournal and Dreamwidth communities for the last few years. If you want to use it, go ahead, but don’t presume to tell me I should use it.
Don’t be freaked out by this but in South Africa, when I was growing up, Chinese where officially “Honorary Whites”. (Yeah, all this got really weird.. So glad we’ve moved on – even if there is a way to go still.)
But Indians were honorary blacks?
janinesays
Ladies and gentlemen, and the rest of us who do not fit the description, may I present; The #DJBreitbart Project.
Oh fuck! I like some of these songs.
janinesays
I miss the use of the Gumby script.
“Dear Conservative, I am facing a potential recall by the big-government public employee unions and their minions who are threatened by the voters actually being in charge of where their tax dollars are being sent. In less than a year we were able to eliminate the deficit and provide the freedom of choice for public employees. Our reforms are allowing them to decide if they would like to spend more than a thousand dollars a year in union dues or keep their money. We put a stop to the unions’ railroading of the taxpayer’s hard-earned dollars. What we need now is your help in telling the unions we do not want another tax-and-spend liberal at the reins of power in Wisconsin. You can do this by contributing $20, $50, $100, or whatever you can afford by clicking here.” – Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker.
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
Richard,
I think there’s a list of points and counterpoints on the pharyngula wiki (which I can never remember the link for).
It’s pharyngula dot wikia dot com, but no such page exists.*
One should, though!
*I’m pretty sure. Sometimes I notice pages I’d completely forgotten about because I had nothing to do with them, but I think I would have contributed to an abortion point-counterpoint.
+++++
Halp! PZ! The software has decided that Wikia links are spam. Can you whitelist it?
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
Ms. Daisy Cutter,
SGBM, #347: Men’s Rights Movement.
Ohhhh. Thanks.
McCthulhu, #323: We might have more of a chance if a great many people on the nominal “left” were willing to treat politics like the blood sport it is, rather than fap about “civility” and act as though all our opponents are reasonable people who will eventually listen to reason.
I agree with a slightly modified version of what Ing said at #11: “you actually can’t argue most people into positions rationally that they do not hold [primarily] for rational reasons. You would have to first use emotional argumentation to convince them of the value of the rationality.”
For the purposes of not letting young people get lost to conservatism or libertarianism in the first place, though, I’ve been wondering if lefties can offer something not tremendously more complicated than that all-purpose libertarian hook, “do not initiate force (for certain values of ‘initiate’ and ‘force’).”
So homophobes like to go on and on about hetero pride parades.
Here’s one.
In Germany there is a tradition of so-called “shooting associations“. They do sports shooting, and at the same time keep local customs alive (predictably tend to be more socially conservative). They hold festivals and parades, where they have a “royal couple” preside over the proceedings. This couple is usually selected by a shooting competition (I’m not an expert on these associations, but traditionally these used to be a man, who would then choose a queen, usually his wife or girlfriend. Some associations now have separate competitions for men and women). Last year in one such local chapter, a gay man won the title of King. He wanted to be accompanied by his civil union partner to all these functions, naturally. This caused much consternation with his fellow members, and they arrived at a so-called compromise, whereby his partner would walk behind him instead of next to him (WTF?).
But of course this was not enough for the homophobes. So today, the North-Rhine Westphalia state chapter (the most populous German state with 16m) decides to bar gay couples as royal couples. Gay men can still be king, but they have to choose a woman as their queen. They also have the gall of saying that they’re not homophobic, they want to merely uphold their Christian tradition.
Der Sprecher des Schützenverbandes wies die Vorwürfe zurück. “Wir diskriminieren keine Homosexuellen”, sagte er der Nachrichtenagentur dapd am Sonntag. “Wir halten uns an unsere enge Bindung an die katholische Kirche.” Es gehe um die traditionelle Rolle von Mann und Frau.
(The spokesman of the shooter’s association denied the accusations. “We do not discriminate against homosexuals” he said to the news agency dapd on Sunday, “we keep our close association to the Catholic church.” He further said that it was about the traditional role of man and woman.”)
Heh. New kitty jumped on the piano, which made a noise that spooked her. After wandering around on the keys for a while, she worked out which way to go to make it stop. :)
In related news, she seems to instinctively know that she should go after the budgie. But he’s so fricking noisy when she’s around that she runs off in terror.
Half-time report: nil-nil draw. (And I split an infinitive.)
(I’m not an expert on these associations, but traditionally only men participated in the shooting events, and the winner would then choose a queen, usually his wife or girlfriend. Some associations now have separate competitions for men and women).
opposablethumbs, que le pouce enragé mette les poucessays
I’m time-zoned out again as usual, but very belated yay for Ing’s legal news and Caine’s anniversary, and – @ Giliell, that is a hell of a lot to deal with and it certainly sounds like you are doing the right thing. If she’s that belittling and dismissive with you, she’s not likely to be the best presence in her grandchildren’s lives (not least because it’s not great for them to see/experience you being put down like that – by your own parent).
Best wishes to ‘Tis Herself, and ongoingly to the Redhead and Nerd.
I’m happy to not use “die in a fire,” but, no, I’m not going to stop insulting jerks by wishing baroque and highly unlikely deaths on them that, very likely, nobody has ever experienced.
Sounds good to me, thank you. “Step on a lego” was the first thing I thought of, but I’d be happy to replace it with “be savaged by a herd of rampaging Daphnia” or something similarly unlikely.
I wouldn’t want Pharyngula to become over-censored either, but I do appreciate it when people try to avoid or warn about relatively common triggers.
I’m happy to not use “die in a fire,” but, no, I’m not going to stop insulting jerks by wishing baroque and highly unlikely deaths on them that, very likely, nobody has ever experienced.
The appropriate German wish is that somebody should go on the Autobahn and play with something poisonous.
Urgh, and my throat feels like I choked on barbed wire.
Want antibiotics
You need to give it seven minutes before the randomness makes sense.
consciousness razorsays
I’m not going to stop insulting jerks by wishing baroque and highly unlikely deaths on them that, very likely, nobody has ever experienced.
It’s more like a curse, not an insult. It’s not actually going to happen, so what’s the point? Not to say you believe it will happen, just that you think it should? You think people deserve some kind of horrible death for saying or doing something shitty, or do you not even want to imply that? If not, then why say so, other than to express outrage? If that’s all you want, then there are plenty of insults (or even curses, if that’s your thing) which would be just as effective without all the unwanted side effects.
People who wish to be protected from any and all violent metaphors can go hang out on Shakesville
They can hang out here too, of course. What you’re saying is that you’re going to use violent rhetoric anyway, for some reason I haven’t yet figured out. Maybe it doesn’t need any justification, but if you have one that would help.
I guess it isn’t “any and all” violent rhetoric that I’m worried about. Talking about the “War on Christmas” or “militant atheists” just needs to be mocked for its absurdity, not taken seriously.
It does bother me when people say others should commit suicide, or other things that are just plain abusive. When someone jokes that some asshole should kill himself or herself, that joke isn’t only at the asshole’s expense. I had friends who committed suicide. I have to deal with it too, for no good reason other than the joker also being an asshole.
That may not matter to you. In fact, maybe you do want to hurt me while “insulting” this asshole, precisely because it will mean I’ll get sucked into an argument with you about the kind of “tone” you think I want. I’m not playing that game, nor am I saying we shouldn’t be free to say whatever we want here. It would nevertheless be nice if people would think about what they’re actually saying and who it will hurt.
changeable monikersays
Sorry, that was a re: janine rather than an @janine. Just spraffin’.
Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OMsays
Urgh, and my throat feels like I choked on barbed wire.
*hugs and warm tea to Giliell :(*
Zugswangsays
@janine:
My dad got one of those solicitations from Walker a couple weeks ago. Odd thing is, my dad lives in Kentucky, and has absolutely no interests in Wisconsin whatsoever.
I don’t know a great deal about the ins and outs of political fundraising, but that doesn’t seem right, does it? To ask non-residents with no connection to the state, financial or otherwise, for money? Or is such a thing among state politicians more commonplace than I imagine?
Yesterday was a long day of work.
Today, I baked. Actually, I still am baking.
To date, I have made today:
1 batch chocolate-chip cookies
2 loaves of hobo bread (see below) are in the oven
2 loaves of banana bread are standing by to go in the oven.
I have also made baked beans. They are delicious!
Hobo bread is an oddly-named deeply delicious bread. Very dense, very sweet. Five ingredients (flour, baking soda, salt, buttermilk, molasses), though I added a sixth, raisins.
In other news, my apartment smells amazing.
chigau (√-1)says
Esteleth
Lucky you!
We’re making kimchee and nuka pickles.
The smell in the house is amazing eye-watering.
John Moralessays
CR,
It’s more like a curse, not an insult. It’s not actually going to happen, so what’s the point? Not to say you believe it will happen, just that you think it should? You think people deserve some kind of horrible death for saying or doing something shitty, or do you not even want to imply that? If not, then why say so, other than to express outrage?
Lazy (cunning?) as I am, when I choose to express such sentiments, I typically merely tell people I wish they would get what they deserve.
(No-one to whom I’ve done so has failed to grasp my meaning — but then, I don’t use it on the truly clueless)
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
I should note that when I said that I made baked beans, I mean the method of making them from scratch over an 8 hour period.
Ditto on the “you’ll understand when you’re older” bullshit.
Bill Dauphin, 94
Mostly threadrupt
If you didn’t see it, I addressed you in 488 of the last TET.
Giliell, 154
I hope your daughter is doing better. Also from what I’ve been reading about your mother, that sounds like a good step for you. All the best.
Yeah, no worries about the discussion. Whenever is good for you.
Cassandra, 217
Thanks to pelamun and Giliell for the offers of help! I found out that I was wrong about the due date for that paper, which is lovely because I decided to give up on it and went to bed all in tears. Now it’s done though.
Ende gut, alles gut. or Glück im Unglück. Sorry if I sound like a truism automaton. Feel free to ask for help if you ever need it though..
Ms. Daisy Cutter, 66
Most of those cartoons are full of fail, and so is the intro. I probably shouldn’t expect anything better from the mainstream media in general and MSNBC in particular.
Which is why I thank the nonexistent gods every day that MSNBC hired Rachel Maddow (happy happy happy dance)
David M., 74
uh. Another generation. Only one teacher ever asked us (though I think in 9th grade), and we declined; we didn’t want that much mental change.
At my Gymnasium, it was like this:
– year 5 through 9: du
– year 10: du, unless requested by the students
– year 11 through 13: Sie, unless waived by the students (usually when the teacher had taught most of the students in year 9 or 10
You see, most of the tenth graders didn’t want to be called Sie, probably for similar reasons. But that teacher was just an asshole.
The joys of Arabic class…
Please tell us more! :-)
It was in a fieldwork simulation class. We would work with a language consultant from Syria under the pretense that no-one ever had described the grammar of Syrian Arabic before. So we didn’t learn the script.
– [q] was not particularly hard to pronounce, but I just loved being able to produce a uvular plosive. You don’t get many languages that have that as a distinct phoneme.
– [ʕ] and [ħ], epiglottal fricatives, where. Though [ʕ] was probably more like an approximant (I wasn’t in charge of the phonology section). But [ħ] was a voiced epiglottal fricative, and we had been warned in phonetics production class that overpractice of epiglottal sounds could actually lead to glottis inflammation (that is to the non-native speaker!). I went back to my phonetics production teacher and asked for advice on how to produce the sound, and he told me to put my finger into the throat until I felt the “vomit reflex”. Then remove the finger while remembering that articulatory configuration.
So as I said, the joys of Arabic class…
OK, time to watch Germany’s answer to the Daily Show!
What would that be? (…But I don’t have TV anyway, so…)
If you like political satire, Extra 3 and Neues aus der Anstalt are also available through iTunes.
Theophontes, 123
Ha, thought as much. Here are the directions in my previous post.
Do you have a website where you can easily enter those? Google Maps does not understand and I don’t have access to a GIS system right now…
Sili, 228
I. I heard Netflix is producing a US version of House of Cards. Anyone watched the original BBC series? Was it good?
I couldn’t possibly comment.
That bad, eh?
chigau, 240
I’ve seen the first episode of Jin.
I can hardly wait to see the rest!
Yeah, looks like a keeper. And you learn useful things watching it like how to produce penicilin when in a pinch.
Rev. BigDumbChimp
Watching the Sarah Palin HBO movie.
Is it worth watching?
FACEBOOK
David M., 74
I still haven’t joined. One reason is that Facebook becomes more evil every few months.
rorschach, 81
Also, if you’re prone to occasional outbursts of retarded fuckwittery like myself, it might get you into trouble. I actually feel less exposed since my profile was deactivated, and I don’t miss it at all. If I want to communicate or stay up to date, I can use twitter. Although at the moment that one is full with this pribble thing slimily swarming all over PZ.
It would be an account that would have nothing to do with work. Should be OK. Some Pharyngulating is happening on FB right, that PET thing sounds interesting.
EUROPEAN REGISTRATION LAWS changeable moniker, 73
Unfortunately, no. You’d be done for tax evasion.
Interesting. So the UK already has strayed from Anglo-Saxon way of Freeedoomm..
David M., 74
There’s no registration in France either!
The government still knows where you live, though. The trick seems to be the electricity bill, because the French Republic still owns its biggest electricity provider. EdF (Électricité de France) bills are considered very important documents and must be kept for 5 years.
Here in Germany I had to register within 2 weeks upon arrival.
Interesting. Though after checking some other European countries (based on Wiki though, take with grain of salt), I still think one can detect a Continental tendency towards compulsory registration:
– France: national ID, based on documents like the electricity bill mentioned by you.
– Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Hungary, Iceland, : compulsory registration with municipal authorities
– Portugal: no register
a national ID (or even a state ID)
No such thing in Austria. But everyone has a passport, a driver’s licence and/or a… well, Personalausweis… I don’t even know what that’s good for or how to get it, but lots of people have such a thing and use it as proof of their existence whenever other people use their passport. Anyway, nobody is automatically issued any such thing, and the three things I mentioned are accepted as proof of ID in polling stations.
So what’s the difference between a national ID and a Personalausweis?
US ELECTORAL SYSTEM
David M., 74
There are already states (Maine and Nebraska) that have their electors vote according to the geographical distribution of majorities in the state. In 2008, one of the electors from Nebraska therefore voted for Obama.
LM, 322
So it is possible to bypass the parties, in these states, and write IRV or some other preference voting system directly into the state constitution. You can be sure that both major parties would propagandize against it in swing states, but the four “bigger” minor parties do get their voices heard somewhat, and in solid-blue or solid-red states the minority party might be supportive too. (For instance, the Republican Party of California, having nothing to lose in the legislature, might like to disrupt things by trading some Democrats for Greens.)
Yeah I was aware that Maine and Nebraska already did this. In the context of presidential elections, however, trying to change the rules for California alone would rightly be interpreted as an attempt to deprive the Dems of some electors.
I do realise though that LM’s suggestion was more for the election of Congress and state parliament, but I see a risk of getting these two issues conflated, which could lead to an easy defeat of the measure.
LM, 322
It would require some finagling. Such a candidate would have to pre-arrange a legal contract with their potential Electors, much like AE is attempting. And then hope hope hope that the Supreme Court allows the validity of such an arrangement. There are already Constitutional provisions to deal with normal cases when no candidate wins a majority of electors. I think AE’s plan is clever, but it’s a coin-toss as to whether the Court would allow it.
Ah yes I remember the legal situation of electors is a mess, with every state having different regulations. Probably a Supreme court case would be helpful to bring some clarity into what is allowed and what is not..
RACISM
theophontes, 346
Don’t be freaked out by this but in South Africa, when I was growing up, Chinese where officially “Honorary Whites”. (Yeah, all this got really weird.. So glad we’ve moved on – even if there is a way to go still.)
I thought Japanese were the honorary whites and the Chinese and Indians the “honorary coloureds”, I guess I got my Apartheid history wrong, or confused it with Texas. I heard some interesting stories from Japanese Texans about asking the KKK if they were fine with Japanese people settling in town. They apparently also brought rice to Texas, and got the seed from the Imperial Palace.
Ms. Daisy Cutter, 356
Theophontes, #346: I’m a bit surprised, admittedly, but not freaked out. Race relations in the U.S. aren’t a proxy for race relations in the rest of the world, and I’ve seen some people stumble unwittingly into arguments by assuming otherwise. Big hot button in particular: The treatment of Eastern Europeans in Western Europe, which is (at least sometimes) referred to as “racism” in Europe. This nomenclature offends some anti-racism people in the U.S
This is interesting. The German equality law though forbids discrimination according to race and ethnic origin, so all bases are covered I guess. Regarding the issue of racism/discrimination based on nationality though I also find troubling that many people don’t get the power imbalance thing. So the German youth minister is on record (it was also her pet issue when she was just an MP) saying that more has to be done about Germanophobia exhibited by all these kids of foreign kids who call Germans “potato” before beating them up.
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
…I am attempting to read the Kent Hovind thread and I am getting confused.
Hey everybody! I’ve been following along reading the thread but I’m effectively threadrupt, I guess. I’m recovering from Captain Trips or some shit. For now, I’ll just stick to conga rats for those who’re celebrating something and comforting pats for those who’re going through something difficult.
John Moralessays
Hey, kristinc.
I’m recovering from Captain Trips or some shit.
Better than Captain Trots, no?
John Moralessays
[pedant]
pelamun,
The German equality law though forbids discrimination according to race and ethnic origin
In English that is ambiguous, but I suspect (without looking at German legislation) that your ‘and’ is actually meant as an inclusive disjunction rather than as a conjunction.
This is what led me to thinking. Given how many Christians/Catholics pick and choose what parts of the official dogma they want to follow, shouldn’t it be possible to set up an internet test/quiz checking their choices against a list of heresies? It could even be an app to counter annoying evangelists: Ask them a simple list of questions, and get your smartphone to tell you what kind of heretic they are.
No, the yellow fever book I was thinking of was The American Plague by Molly Caldwell Crosby… nonfiction, rather than the (admittedly interesting sounding) novel at your link. I seem to have been wrong about the awards, though: While nominated for a handful of booksellers’ awards, it wasn’t mentioned for anything as prestigious as the National Book Award or Pulitzer. I think I had it mashed up in my head with another historical book I read at about the same time.
***
To break up an otherwise wretched Sunday at the office, I had a delightful dinner with the Horde’s own Carlie and her family. To those of you who might not already know this, I can report that they’re excellent company!
Now, off to get what will be more of a nap than a night’s sleep before returning to the grindstoneoffice….
Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OMsays
You know what? I’m incredibly fucking sick of Encolpius and his flaccid penis!
…Sorry, everybody. I just had to say it.
(Masculine inadequacy is the topic of the paper I’m writing.)
chigau (√-1)says
sumo!
すもう!
相撲!
streaming live!!!!
John Moralessays
Sili, using the CE ain’t worth much.
If you want authoritativeness, you need to refer to the Vatican.
(FWIW, all Catholics swear to obey the Pope, though many don’t realise they’ve done so)
I hope John Morales has already gotten his defenses of racism out of his system for the month.
John Moralessays
There’s no racism to defend, ॐ.
Owlmirrorsays
I started rereading Bridge of Birds, and you may like to know that “Number Ten Ox” is not a name, but a nickname. Number ten son, strong as an ox, and as dumb as an ox! (Or maybe not so dumb…)
I never got the impression from reading any of the books that Lu Yu (his real name) was dumb, or was thought to be dumb by anyone else. He’s the one narrating, of course, and while he does denigrate his own intelligence, it seems obvious to me that that is only because of his inexperience, and because of the contrast with the hyperintelligent (and very experienced) company he keeps.
And, perhaps, the orientalist trope of personal self-denigration.
Owlmirrorsays
Lu Yu (his real name)
(Not to be confused with Lù Yǔ (陆羽), the eminent author of The Classic of Tea…)
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
John, if you want to have that argument, you could try doing it honestly. Go back to the Pharyngula thread and address the multiple explanations of why the billboard was racist. You failed to do this, and further compounded your contemptibility by outright lying that Rutee had “yet to say anything about this billboard.”
All I was really hoping is that you’d gotten all your defenses of racism out of your system. If you don’t, I hope you’ll confine them to the Pharyngula thread instead of running off to make black activists’ work even harder.
John Moralessays
ॐ, I responded to you here since here is where dropped my name.
(You’ve also confused my response to flib with my response to Rutee, so I forgive you your accusation)
—
As for the explanations, I’ve read them, and I disagree.
I really have nothing further to offer, other than to correct myself: when I wrote “There’s no racism to defend”, what I meant (and what I should’ve written) is “I see no racism to defend in that billboard”.
(Not that I would, since I don’t approve of it)
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
ॐ, I responded to you here since here is where dropped my name.
I’m aware.
(You’ve also confused my response to flib with my response to Rutee, so I forgive you your accusation)
Ah, so I did. Sorry about that. You did still fail to address the multiple explanations of why it was racist.
As for the explanations, I’ve read them, and I disagree.
Without attempting to publicly engage those explanations, it’s far more likely that you’ll end up being wrong than if you had put in the extra thought necessary to engage.
ॐ, if you really want an argument with me, make your case ab initio, either here or there; if not, don’t.
(You should by now have learnt I don’t like it when people try to push my buttons, though I suppose I can’t blame you for trying)
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
My case is already clearly made back on that older thread. What I find lazy and disingenuous is your dismissal without engagement of every argument therein about racism.
The reason I pushed your buttons here was to distract you from taking your defenses of racism over to yet another thread on the matter. If you’re not inclined to do that, then it’s not a big deal to me either way.
John Moralessays
ॐ, it is you who ostensibly abandons rationality when you characterise my lack of agreement with some claim about something as defending that something.
(You sure you want me to believe your characterisation is not disingenous?
Because, if so, I’ve over-estimated your rationality)
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
That’s silly shit, John.
For instance, nobody who isn’t disingenuous has any trouble understanding that denial of the Holocaust is defense of the Holocaust.
HI there
Just spent 5 hours of my life going from my GP to the kids’ paediatrician with a detour via MCDonalds (It will take at least an hour here, do you want to come back then?)
Now I have two more packs of antibiotics and my hopes high that I will feel better by tomorrow.
Nutmeg, #369: Fair enough; I think it’s entirely reasonable to warn about common triggers.
Giliell, #370: “Go play in traffic” has been an Americanism to that effect since before I was a kid.
Are people supposed to play with something poisonous while on the Autobahn? Wouldn’t critters of any sort be scarce/dead on a high-speed road?
Consciousness Razor, try rereading my comment, kthx. If you have to be protected from “violent rhetoric” that is about as realistic as a Warner Bros. cartoon, you have my condolences, and that’s about it.
Oh, and by the way, I’ve had friends who committed suicide, too. Four of them. And I’ve attempted it. Your moral high horse, please to be getting off it.
It’s more like a curse, not an insult. It’s not actually going to happen, so what’s the point?
I’ve been staying out of the “go die in a fire” debate for several reasons (mainly because I personally don’t use that kind of language) but it seems that the German phrase would be
“Geh auf die Autobahn und spiel mit was Giftigem”
a variant seems to be
“Geh und spiel mit was Giftigem”
so maybe the “go play with something poisonous” was first and then it got mixed up with the American “go play in traffic” thing.
Though hard to say without more extensive research…
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
John,
Here’s the thing about racism:
If you are not part of the oppressed group, you have to defer to the oppressed group when they say that something is racist.
Why?
Two reasons. Firstly, it’s easy for even the most well-meaning anti-racist white person to not really get what it means to be a PoC. Therefore, it is easy for said well-meaning anti-racist white person to “not see” that something racist is, in fact, racist.
Secondly, there is a history of white people denying that racism exists, or is that bad in this country. A long and ugly history. Many of these white people did so out of malice, many others did so out of blindness (see point #1). However, these two motivations can be difficult to dissect from each other without knowing the speaker very well.
Accordingly, if a PoC says that such and such is racist, it is best not to argue that it isn’t, because it is more probable that it is and you’re just not seeing it. Also, by arguing, you make yourself look like an ass (and a bad ally, and – here’s the kicker – a racist).
Is this fair? Don’t white people have opinions, and don’t we deserve to speak them? Aren’t there PoC who are irrational and willing to blame every little thing as racist?
Yep. Doesn’t change a damn thing.
It isn’t fair. It never is fair. But here’s the thing – racism isn’t fair.
There are insights you can get from lived experience that are nearly impossible to get any other way. Some acquire them through empathy, but that is not common. Our society militates against it.
I don’t always agree with every PoC opinion on what constitutes racism. PoC themselves disagree. That said — except in situations complicated by other forms of oppression, which is a long discussion in and of itself — I am more than happy to leave it up to PoC to police the definition of racism as it works in their own societies.
keenacatsays
There are insights you can get from lived experience that are nearly impossible to get any other way. Some acquire them through empathy, but that is not common.
Are people supposed to play with something poisonous while on the Autobahn? Wouldn’t critters of any sort be scarce/dead on a high-speed road?
Sure, but occasionally they survive.
You minimize risks if they play with something poisonous at the same time :)
I’m not sure if the “Autobahn” part is derived from the American “go play in traffic”.
Seems unlikely to me since it’s not a recent addition and by the time it was added English/American English didn’t have that much influence on German yet, but I’m just guessing here.
On the other hand, it’s pretty obvious that playing in traffic/ on the Autobahn is inherently dangerous, so it could well have developed independently in different languages
Jesus Christ, I’m starting to think the NYPD should be prosecuted under the RICO Act.
One of their cops decided to help out a number of crime victims who felt that the police bureaucracy “seemed to have purposely been set up to make it hard to report serious crimes.” Which it was: “[M]ore than 100 retired police commanders told researchers that intense pressure for annual crime reductions had led some officials to manipulate statistics.”
Officers were told to arrest people who were doing little more than standing on the street… Arresting bystanders made it look like the department was efficient, while artificially reducing the amount of serious crime made the commander look good.
carliesays
I am behind on The Thread again. This is happening too often these days. But I did have a real-live version yesterday, because I got to meet Bill Dauphin! I had a great time and he was wonderful in person, just as all the Pharyngulites I’ve met have been. Now I have to dig out from under the remnants of last week’s to-do list, start on this week’s, and hopefully catch up with threadness sometime…
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
I found a grey hair on my head this morning.
I went D: D: D:
Then I realized that the texture and length were all wrong.
It was cat hair.
*facepalm*
theophontes 777says
@ pelamun
[apropriation] Here are two examples of apropriation from South Africa in the eighties (it is sometimes easier to see things in hindsight):
Juluka (link to picture, Link to music video) where a mixed race band. The lead singer was a white jewish guy called Johnny Clegg who wrote and sang in English and Zulu. They were actually quite instrumental in bringing Zulu music into the mainstream and getting a multiracial message across.
The second band is éVoid ( picture here, video here). The group was completely lilly-white. They essentially rejected their own (admittedly rather dull and oppressive) upbringing and embraced a culture of their own invention (though based on broadly African influences, from Ndebele to Egyptian). They put themselves into exile to avoid conscription into the army (a good idea given their anti-apartheid attitudes).
I just finished reading the PUA thread. I forbore to leave another comment because it seems to have died down and I didn’t want to encourage Riding to continue whining, but… sweet salty FSM. Arguing with him is like trying to debate the solidity of the walls with someone on a bad acid trip. Can you imagine a conversation between Riding and Daniel Haven?
I’ve been wondering if lefties can offer something not tremendously more complicated than that all-purpose libertarian hook, “do not initiate force (for certain values of ‘initiate’ and ‘force’).”
One bible quote I am still very fond of might work
“Let we who are strong lend a shoulder to those who are not”
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Well, if you’re willing to quote Karl Marx, you could use “Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen.”
(From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.)
theophontes 777says
Ms Daisy Cutter
[Apartheid classification]
Generally the trend was according to a scale of both whiteness (applied locally, often cruelly splitting up communities as some people where slightly lighter or darker) and perceived (how the fuck did they decide?) levels of “civilization”. Apartheid claimed “separate but equal” as the driving concept, but obviously this was (as it still is in the US, think gay marriage) simply a ruse to hide guilt over the iniquity of the system. Link to Hendrik Verwoerd explaining how it works.
@ pelamun (& sili)
Co-ordinates of Great Wall. Can’t send now, will try tomorrow.
I thought Japanese were the honorary whites and the Chinese and Indians the “honorary coloureds”, I guess I got my Apartheid history wrong,
Nothing as simple as that. It really was confused and arbitrary. The institutionalised discrimination started early on. Chinese where banned from settling in SA from the beginning of the 1900’s. Japanese did get the “honorary white” status before the Chinese … who where rather put out by it. On the other hand there weren’t any police who could differentiate anyhow. Also IIRC Taiwanese had special status. *mindboggle*
It remains complicated. (Link)
I’m really, really glad that Mr and I could never agree on some decent, more expensive living room furniture.
I will not be too sad if we declare the present one to be firewood in afew years time once our kids have learned that we don’t fucking paint on cupboards
And no, dear kid, you’re not being opressed because mummy just confiscated the pencil…
Esteleth
There#s one very prominent grey hair on the head of my 4yo :D
For example: New Ageism/and other apocalyptic scenarios and the idea of the end of the world based on the Maya calendar=appropriation. Anthropologists, archaeologists, art historians writing about the Maya calendar and the supposed end of the world=representation.
Possible example tell me if this is wrong or not:
If you want to write a native American character, do your research, pick one of the cultures and write them like that. Don’t do what Star Trek Voyager did and make the native a composite Indian who is from the Amazon I beleive, has vision quests and dream catchers and basically any other vague trope or cultural idea that has been picked up by osmosis from ANY tribe.
cicely ("Intriguingly Odd")says
Every time I run into some asshat, MRA, fundie or other, I know there is one place on the internets where I can go to restore my faith in humanity.
<music> Sometimes you wanta go
Where ev’rybody knows your ‘nyyyym,
And the discourse isn’t priiiiiim.
You wanna be where you can see
Fundies rent limb from liiiimb
You wanna be where ev’rybody knows your ‘nym.
</music>
:)
–
Especially since I added the SPLIT PEAS.
LALALALALALALA!
Sorry, Josh; can’t hear you.
–
Watching the Sarah Palin HBO movie.
I saw a clip from it on Jon Stewart. Julianne Moore does a very convincing Palin in it. Scary!
–
Chas, Esme & Rubin are all busy chowing down on steamed peas (Yes, Cicely, peas! Evil peas!)[…]
I salute their noble sacrifice, destroying the Evil before it has the chance to bring down Civilisation As We Know It.
–
To put it crudely, how is putting a child’s penis in one’s mouth not considered some form of sexual abuse?
‘Cause Religion, which always gets a pass on abuse.
–
I fucking hate fucking Daylight Saving Time and I would dance if it Died In A Fire.
+1
(Well, in my case the dancing would have to be metaphorical, but no less heart felt.)
–
However, I think there’s a difference between representing (or attempting to represent and/or interpret) a culture and appropriating a culture (or aspects of a culture).
New Age Quasi-Norse Runes. Native. American. Tarot.
–
theophontes 777says
@ Ms Daisy Cutter
Can you imagine a conversation between Riding and Daniel Haven?
Well, if you’re willing to quote Karl Marx, you could use “Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen.”
I’d rather not.
I like the other phrase because it is phrased not as a demand for hand out or cry from bellow but one of solidarity of the speaker saying “let each of us do what we can to help”.
Been playing ME3. If anyone knows a way to do a Team Game together and wants to let me know.
Richard Austinsays
Totally random:
Yesterday late afternoon, approaching sunset, I was out wandering* around town. I decided to walk past the wonderfully-styled city hall as part of my journey, and as I approached, I noticed a man who appeared to be hiding under a jacket.
Turns out he was setting up a Hasselblad medium format digital camera to take a shot (or maybe 2) of the city hall in the light. I have to admit the scene was pretty (and I’ll probably go back to get shots of my own at some point), but my internal camera geek triggered. I got caught between “photography squee!” and not wanting to bother him since he was obviously working diligently, so I just stood back and watched a few minutes as he played with it.
Nothing like watching someone use a $25k piece of photographic equipment.
This suggested project approaches the greatness of the Lego Testament or the LOLcat Bible.
cicely ("Intriguingly Odd")says
In other news, my apartment smells amazing.
My house smells—nay, reeks—of Lysol.
And so does the office.
I hate the smell of Lysol.
–
It is just too sucky a day to further ruin it with peas; Daylight Savings Time, Monday, and high pollen counts taken together add up to a Trifecta of Terribleness. Accordingly, I will be averting my eyes from any mentions of the Vile Vegetable until sometime after all this Monday nonsense has gone away.
–
OK, some thoughts on the Orientalism issue. Before I address some individual posts, first some general ideas.
First: I’m not an expert on this. My time on Pharyngula though has helped me reflect on these issues a lot and the discussions I’ve been having with my friend about imperialism and post-colonialism have been enlightening. In a way, though, they have also helped me articulate some of my feelings of alienation or confusion when previously confronted with examples of orientalism or exoticisation in general.
ORIENTALISM
Michel Foucault: as far as his work concerns the relationship between power and knowledge, it is relevant to the debate. I’m not too familiar with his vast work, but it seems that he does not specifically address the question in a post-colonial framework, but others like Said have applied his work in such a manner. But I found a quote in Truth and power that might come close
The important thing here, I believe, is that truth isn’t outside power, or lacking in power […] truth isn’t the reward of free spirits, the child of protracted solitude, nor the privilege of those who have succeeded in liberating themselves. Truth is a thing of this world: it is produced only by virtue of multiple forms of constraint. And it includes regular effects of power. Each society has its regime of truth, its “general politics” of truth – that is, the types of discourse it accepts and makes function as true; the mechanisms and instances that enable one to distinguish true and false statements; the means by which each is sanctioned; the techniques and procedures accorded value in the acquisition of truth; the status of those who are charged with saying what counts as true.
In societies like ours, the “political economy” of truth is characterised by five important traits. “Truth” is centred on the form of scientific discourse and the institutions which produce it; it is subject to constant economic and political incitement (for demand for truth, as much for economic production as for political power”; it is the object, under diverse forms, of immense diffusion and consumption (circulating throughout apparatuses of education and information whose extent is relatively broad in the social body, notwithstanding certain strict limitations); it is produced and transmitted under the control, dominant if not exclusive, of a few great political and economic apparatuses ( University, army, writing, media); lastly, it is the issue of a whole political debate and social confrontation (“ideological” struggles).
Edward Said: of course coined (or rather redefined) the term Orientalism and wrote the book with the same title (1978). Also, Culture and imperialism (1993)
The scientist, the scholar, the missionary, the trader, or the soldier was in, or thought about, the Orient because he could be there, or could think about it, with very little resistance on the Orient’s part.
But not even Said says that no westerner could write on non-western culture. In his Afterword added to Orientalism in 1995, he writes:
In his generally balanced 1979 review of Orientalism Hourani formulated one of his objections by suggesting that while I singled out the exaggerations, racism, and hostility of much Orientalist writing, I neglected to mention its numerous scholarly and humanistic achievements. Names that he brought up included Marshall Hodgson, Claude Cahen, Andre Raymond, all of whom (along with those of the German authors that come up de rigeur) should be acknowledged as real contributors to human knowledge. This does not, however, conflict with what I say in Orientalism, with the difference that I do insist on the prevalence in the discourse itself of a structure of attitudes that cannot simply be waved away or discounted. Nowhere do I argue that Orientalism is evil, or sloppy, or uniformly the same in the work of each and every Orientalist. But I do say that the guild of Orientalists has a specific history of complicity with imperial power, which it would be Panglossian to call irrelevant.
So while I sympathize with Hourani’s plea, I have serious doubts whether the notion of Orientalism properly understood can ever, in fact, be completely detached from its rather more complicated and not always flattering circumstances. I suppose that one can imagine at the limit that a specialist in Ottoman or Fatimid archives is an Orientalist in Hourani’s sense, but we are still required to ask where, how, and with what supporting institutions and agencies such studies take place today? Many who wrote after my book appeared asked exactly those questions of even the most recondite and otherworldly scholars, with sometimes devastating results.
Also in a different book I found a Said quote that while he asserted that members of one culture are apt to create stereotypes about another, he explicitly denied that “only women can understand feminine experience, only Jews can understand Jewish suffering, only formerly colonial subjects can understand colonial experiences”.
According to my friend, he is also “obsessed with Conrad’s Heart of Darkness“, and as far as I understand, his assessment of Conrad is ambivalent. He sees positive things in Conrad’s portrayal of Africa as well as negative. But I haven’t read that his 1995 book yet.
There are also two other scholars who together with Said are said to make up the “post-colonian trifecta”: Homi K. Bhabha and Gayatri Chakavorty Spivak.
Robert J.C. Young has written on the white mythologies in the context of postcolonialism (also regarding most of Marxist historiography as taking a Eurocentric if anti-capitalist perspective). Probably in this context, his book Colonial descire: Hybridity in Theory, Culture and Race (1995) is most relevant, in that book in chapter 7, Colonialism and the desiring machine he discusses the works of Said, Bhabha and Spivak, among others.
CULTURAL APPROPRIATION
According to Cultural appropriation and the arts by James O. Young, one can roughly distinguish three types of cultural appropriation:
1. object appropriation: concrete objects of art. Any transaction between involving a concrete object of art. Can refer to legal purchases as well as illegal pillaging (there are also grey area cases, but I’ll disregard them because this type of appropriation is not the thrust of this post).
2. content appropriation: the reuse of content from another culture. This can be a composition, a story, a poem etc. Sometimes this is less than an “entire expression of an artistic idea”, in which case this can be called style appropriation. An even more indirect type of content appropriation is motif appropriation. In this case, an artist appropriates ideas from an artistic tradition other than their own, but the artwork is not in the style of that culture. Example, Picasso appropriating ideas from African carving in Les Demoiselles d’Avignon (1907)
3. subject appropriation: this is basically when outsiders represent in their art individuals or institutions from another culture. Joseph Conrad is one example.
The author says the term subject appropriation is a misnomer because artists ultimately only represent their own experiences, not those of their culture. While this is technically correct, I note that in his book, James Young largely ignores the question of power imbalances and cultural dominance (save for a section on minority cultures being appropriated by the majority culture).
Now, the definition alone shows that cultural appropriation need not necessarily be a negative thing. Cultures have always influenced each other, and a lot of what’s falls under content appropriation is a consequence of this. In a way, I think, fantasy worlds could also be subsumed under content appropriation, because the artist does not claim to create a narrative for a real existing people. So it’s not subject appropriation. It can still be harmful if it transports racial stereotypes, or is just poor art (an example would be a white jazz musician playing jazz poorly, but being noticed more because of their race could give jazz a bad name).
James Young argues against the claim that subject appropriation could be harmful in the case of a good and knowledgeable artist can accurately represent a culture that is no their own and thus generate more interest in that culture, allowing everyone to profit. This was also comparable to my own position before I talked to my friend about it. Essentially this ignores the question of cultural dominance.
It is still about the question, who gets to tell the story about non-western culture? We can have the best western story-tellers with the richest of experiences, but it’s still their perspective, and their story. And if they are trusted all the more for their cultural knowledge of a non-western culture, this also amounts to a form of cultural dominance over it (as “authority on culture X”, they get to define the discourse about it). Of course, in a situation where otherwise there would not be anything available on culture X, a knowledgeable westerner would be better than a bigoted one. But we should keep in mind that it is an act of cultural appropriation that can deprive members of the portrayed culture of their chance of being heard.
But there is no easy guideline. The question of what culture is, and different time periods, art genres, art registers (high brow / low brow etc), dominance situations etc make this quite complicated.
I will address individual posts like by Alethea, David M., ruteekatreya, changeable moniker, theophontes in a later post, can’t promise when I’ll get to it. But please feel free to correct me. I mean I’m no lit major, I’m sure I got stuff wrong here.
(Probably also a bit more on the problem of translation, but a short answer: a translator translating a nonwestern book into a western language is less appropriating than a western writer who is writing a book from the perspective of a nonwestern culture)
Squigitsays
Ing,
Possible example tell me if this is wrong or not:
If you want to write a native American character, do your research, pick one of the cultures and write them like that.
Many Native American groups have lots of things in common, though, so it would be difficult to try to write fiction about one culture. But I get your point.
Don’t do what Star Trek Voyager did and make the native a composite Indian who is from the Amazon I beleive, has vision quests and dream catchers and basically any other vague trope or cultural idea that has been picked up by osmosis from ANY tribe.
Example of what? Representation? Appropriation? Pelamun, I think, discusses this in #434:
subject appropriation: this is basically when outsiders represent in their art individuals or institutions from another culture. Joseph Conrad is one example.
Pelamun also notes:
it [appropriation] can still be harmful if it transports racial stereotypes, or is just poor art…
To me, though, it’s the attempt to take aspects of a culture as one’s own that’s “appropriation” in the negative sense, rather than just writing about a culture other than one’s own. But maybe I’m just not clear on how representing (i.e. writing about) a culture is appropriation that same way that 2012 Doomsdayers have appropriated things from other cultures?
New Age Quasi-Norse Runes. Native. American. Tarot.
Ugh.
If you are not part of the oppressed group, you have to defer to the oppressed group when they say that something is racist.
What is so hard about this for people to get? I mean, really.
On another note: I got promoted at work today! So now, I make slightly more than minimum wage per hour (and by “slightly”, I mean “barely”)! Also, I’m starting some volunteering stuff at an archaeology lab tomorrow. Super excited!!!!
Many Native American groups have lots of things in common, though, so it would be difficult to try to write fiction about one culture. But I get your point
Such as? Most of the time it seems to me you’re having the same problem as sayinhg “well Europeans have so much in common” and have an Italian talking about how much he loves to eat schnitzel while he wears his stripped shirt and beret and play Rugby. Because he is European you see.
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Not only that, Ing, but really – Native Americans have more in common than not? So, you could totally take a Seminole person and stick them in Alaska and they’d be just fine?
There are tendencies of similar cultures, geographically speaking, but the only thing (functionally) that unites Native Americans is that name itself – they are the indigenous people of North America.
it [appropriation] can still be harmful if it transports racial stereotypes, or is just poor art…
I was referring to content appropriation, as opposed to subject appropriation. Arguably, subject appropriation is more harmful…
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Wow, that came across as pure gibberish on my part. Woo!
Even if you pick a narrow geographic region, in a narrow time range (because that is also relevant), there will DEFINITELY be detectable, noticeable differences between groups. I mean, both the Seneca and Cayuga tribes live in upstate NY, speak similar languages (similar dialects of the same language, even), have similar religious practices, and are politically united into the Haudenosaunee League (together with four other tribes), but they are still, nonetheless two distinct groups. And those differences are significant – and if you want to accurately depict someone from one group or the other, it behooves the author to research this stuff.
It may be acceptable, in some cases, to just refer to the whole supergroup by their common name, the Iroquois, in order to contrast them with some other nearby group (such as the Algonquin). But that is only in some cases.
If the story is about a person who is from one of the Six Nations and the story features them interacting with their family, friends, and other members of the Six Nations, failing to acknowledge the nuances and differences between the Six is bad.
In keeping with your European analogy, Ing, it is one thing for someone from Milan to refer to themself as “European” while they are visiting the US. But inside Europe, they’re Italian – and inside Italy they’re a Lombard, or Milanese. Inside Milan, they would refer to their neighborhood, and inside their neighborhood to the local landmarks – or possibly as so-and-so’s son/daughter/husband/wife/brother/sister.
life is like a pitbull with lipstick ॐsays
Ing!!1 I’m fretting because I don’t know if you saw these PDFs. Please ACK.
cicely ("Intriguingly Odd")says
Squigit, congrats on the promotion, be it ever so humble. :)
–
Native American peoples had no inter-tribal anomosities or rivalries. All one happy Kumbaya brotherhood.
*
*
*
(Somebody wanta help me get my tongue back outa my cheek?)
–
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Here, cicely.
*pulls out tongue-extracting pliers*
Open wide.
cicely ("Intriguingly Odd")says
*Aaaaahhhhh!*
Thanks, Esteleth!
:D
–
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
No prob, cicely.
:D
*cleans and sterilizes pliers, then packs them away*
Hmm, maybe I should take these over to the Ouch thread and use these to extract Certain People’s™ heads from their asses.
While I understand that many progressives are have no problem at all with paying fervent attention to women’s rights within our own arbitrary national borders and closing their eyes with insouciance to what goes on in distant lands, I find it far more difficult… I find it much harder than most to obsess over minor changes to abortion laws in Virginia while utterly ignoring far worse declines in the rights of women elsewhere in the world.
Of course. It’s not like feminists ever take a global perspective. Or like U.S. women have a lot better chance changing misogynist policy here than we do in Afghanistan.
Also, rape by the state is “minor.” Because nobody’s shoving a dildo-sized medical device up any of Atkins’ orifices, I guess. Thanks for reminding me why I don’t read DailyKos anymore, asshole.
Cultural identity is complicated. I’m not that familiar with Native American identity, but I know anthropologists working on the topic in SE Asia. Even within the same ethnic group, villages and lineages and so forth can become important and be used to differentiate identities, and depending on context the in-group/out-group changes. If you’re opposing a mining project, the entire populace of three districts becomes one in-group against the outside business interests, if it’s land issues between two villages, the village identity comes to the fore etc..
A. Rsays
Esteleth: I was thinking along the lines of a jackhammer and the jaws of life.
I found a grey hair on my head this morning.
I went D: D: D:
Then I realized that the texture and length were all wrong.
That’s true even when they are your own. The worst thing I hate about gray hair is the texture and brittleness.
++++++++++++++
cicely, Cheers!
++++++++++++++
Uhh, whoever made the authentic baked bean, slow cooked over 8 hours? Yeah, sounds like a crock to me.
++++++++++++++
@ Richard Austin, I had a chance to buy a 3″x4″ large format Hasselblad analog camera in the 80’s. With enlarger, darkroom chemicals and appurtenances. For $750!
I had to turn it down because I couldn’t afford the film and over head. {wait … 1 … 2 …3}
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Very true, pelamun.
Depending on where I am in the world and my knowledge of the other person, I may cheerfully assent or vehemently deny that I am a Yankee.
Because in one sense, I am (I am American), but in another I am not (I am not from New England).
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Sailor, is that a touch of jealousy (wrt beans) I detect?
Crock-pots are glorious things.
If you want, I can give you the recipe.
Squigitsays
Such as? Most of the time it seems to me you’re having the same problem as sayinhg “well Europeans have so much in common” and have an Italian talking about how much he loves to eat schnitzel while he wears his stripped shirt and beret and play Rugby. Because he is European you see.
Point taken. It was my fault for failing to adequately and clearly write what I was thinking of and for making it seem like I was saying “all Indians live in teepees”.
There are tendencies of similar cultures, geographically speaking,
This similarity among cultures in geographic regions is what I was thinking of but failed to communicate (and no, I don’t mean “all Southwest groups are exactly the same, therefore, Navajo=Hopi”).
I was referring to content appropriation, as opposed to subject appropriation. Arguably, subject appropriation is more harmful…
Oh, sorry. My mistake.
Cultural identity is complicated.
Identity is both relational and fluid. Even cultural identity.
Squigit, congrats on the promotion, be it ever so humble. :)
Thanks, cicely. :)
I’m sorry my posts seem to be a mess, it’s very, very difficult for me to take what’s in my head and put it into words…it’s almost like a brick wall forms around my brain and prevents any thoughts from clearly coming out when I try to write them down…I can’t help it.
there is one crucial difference to your Yankee thing or to the Milan thing, though: in the case of SE Asia (and probably other colonised areas), some of the identities were constructed by the coloniser.
So let’s say we have a region with a number of villages that are similar culturally and linguistically (and dialect chains can extend over a long stretch). They did not necessarily have a common identity, usually it would be by settlement and lineage etc. Now, the coloniser comes in and sets up administrative districts etc, and the locals become “people of district X” = “the X people”.
I suspect some of this might also be at play with Native Americans, but I wouldn’t pretend to know, so I’ll just throw it out there.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trollssays
Nerd, grog and chocolate chip cookies will be coming out of your USB shortly.
Since I make the grog, already in hand. Chocolate chip cookies will be welcomed though.
One side effect of the Redhead’s problems has been me losing 25 lbs since the first of the year due to changes in eating habits. I need a new belt.
I woke up this morning to several text messages and FB messages saying that another anti-choice group was on campus, so we organized and mobilized the people from the last counter-demonstration to get out there and give out factual information and such. They’re going to be on campus again tomorrow.
Those sneaky assholes! They scheduled this shit the day after spring break and didn’t let anyone know on campus know that they’d be there so that we wouldn’t be as effective at counter-demonstrating. Well, we fucking showed them. Also, they were sponsored by the fucking college republicans. (I never say just “college republicans”. It’s always “the fucking college republicans”.)
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Oh, absolutely, pelamun. Agree with that 100%.
WRT Native Americans, IANAE, but to my knowledge the attitude of TPTB was, “They’re Injuns. Kill ’em.” If they acknowledged differences in the groups, they didn’t much dwell on it.
That said, the attitude of the government today (such as the BIA) is more nuanced and largely cedes to the tribes themselves WRT identity and membership.
The only issue that I know about WRT your example of an outside group drawing lines in North America is with regards to the Haudenosaunee, who live in both upstate NY and in Canada, directly across Lake Ontario. They (with good logic, from their perspective) view the international border that transects their land as artificial and ignore it. This pisses off both Washington and Ottawa, but they mostly ignore it (Haudenosaunee issues are insufficiently important to register). But there was an issue last year or maybe the year before where a group of Haudenosaunee were to travel to the UK. They carried Six Nations passports, and were not allowed to leave – because they should (in the eyes of Washington and Ottawa) carry US or Canadian passports, as appropriate to the person. They protested – they are, after all, a sovereign nation, and they didn’t have US or Canadian passports.
Hilary Clinton stepped in, and in a gesture of magnanimity, offered to issue them (in her authority as SecState) emergency US passports, effective immediately, so that they could travel. Neatly ignoring the issue, from the perspective of the Haudenosaunee, but a fix from the perspective of Washington and Ottawa (and London, for that matter).
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
I’ll send a double batch of cookies in that case, Nerd.
How’s the Redhead doing, if you don’t mind me asking?
To me, though, it’s the attempt to take aspects of a culture as one’s own that’s “appropriation” in the negative sense, rather than just writing about a culture other than one’s own. But maybe I’m just not clear on how representing (i.e. writing about) a culture is appropriation that same way that 2012 Doomsdayers have appropriated things from other cultures?
This both looks like subject appropriation to me.
I mean you are not just appropriating the calendar as a model for your own calendar (which would be content appropriation), but because at the same time you are also (implicitly) claim that your calendar authentically represents Mayan culture. That would probably be worse than a writer representing a culture other than their own….
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trollssays
How’s the Redhead doing, if you don’t mind me asking?
Still not recovered enough to come home. The goal for rehab is walking with a walker or cane, but the leg needs more “connections” for them to work with. But it is improving very slowly.
chigau (√-1)says
North America is a very large place.
The experiences of the indigenous peoples were very different, depending on location.
Unless we just go to the bottom line which rhymes with “attempted genocide”.
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
I’m glad to hear that the Redhead is improving, albeit slowly, Nerd.
Good thoughts to you both.
___
Chigau, I once got in a shouting match with someone when I (not expecting an argument) referred to the treatment of the Native Americans as an act of genocide.
This person was willing to agree that it was a mass slaughter, and that it was motivated by race. But genocide? No, absolutely not. The US government does not perpetrate genocide! They’re good.
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
The US government, that is.
US = good. Genocide = bad.
Ergo, US =/= genocide.
*facepalm*
Squigitsays
pelamun,
So would you consider ethnography to be appropriation?
chigau (√-1)says
Esteleth
It could also depend on what one means by “genocide”.
Actual slaughter of humans of a certain culture or
Residential Schooling the culture out of a bunch of children.
changeable monikersays
@pelamun:
I will address individual posts like by […] changeable moniker
Please don’t exert yourself on my behalf. :) That was a bit of a drunkenpost, and since on weekdays I can only skim TET, I’d probably miss it. :-/
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Chigau, I will point out that both of the things you cite happened.
A. Rsays
Well, I can say one good thing about the troll on the Ouch thread, xe has inspired me to make a bunch of pork pies this weekend.
Your quote mining of Atkin’s post is Brietbarting what he said.
I find it far more difficult. Rick Santorum and the Taliban are of a single mindset, symptoms of the same theocratic, patriarchal disease.
You managed to yada, yada, yada over that part with ellipses.
I encourage others to read Atkin’s full post and see if they come to the same conclusion that the hopping land mine came to.
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Do you have a good pork pie recipe, AR?
I will trade it for the recipe for “hobo bread” (or slow-cooked baked beans, if you prefer) if you do.
A. Rsays
Esteleth: Yeah, I’ve got an ancient recipe from the same book I got the liver and kidney aspic recipe from. Best pork pie I’ve ever tasted. I’ll email my aunt for it and post ASAP. Baked beans sound quite good.
chigau (√-1)says
Esteleth
I will point out that both of the things you cite happened.
Oh my yes.
But is it worser™ to kill someone or to “merely” completely fuck them up?
Pteryxxsays
But is it worser™ to kill someone or to “merely” completely fuck them up?
…those don’t come as disparate choices. To the victim, often, submitting to being fucked up is how one avoids being killed. The haters usually don’t make any particular distinction between victims that die versus those that go silent, except that it’s easier to disclaim responsibility if the victims kill themselves, or die from neglect. The uppity ones tend to get the killin’s.
A. Rsays
Just watched a video detailing a method for the preparation of a Doritos Consommé. I found this to be concerning, and somewhat fiftiesish if the fifties had Doritos.
Pteryxxsays
Sorry. My point being, whether it’s “worse” to be killed or fucked-up depends a lot on the victim’s POV and circumstances. I’m not sure it’s a valid question from the oppressor’s viewpoint, or from a supposedly clinical outside perspective. For instance, I can think of lots of times I’d rather have died than been abused, and I wasn’t ever genocided upon.
…aaand I should’ve just stayed away for my own sake. *headshake*
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Okie, A.R.
Slow cooked baked beans in the style of the Esteleth-kin:
Ingredients:
2 cups dry beans (use Great Northern or Jacob’s Cattle beans for best results)
1 small white onion
1/4 cup butter or margarine
2 teaspoons of salt
2 tablespoons dark brown sugar
1/4 cup molasses
1/4 teaspoon dry mustard
1/2 teaspoon Worcestershire sauce
Directions:
Rinse beans, then cover with water and let soak 6-8 hours. Drain, then recover. Bring to boil and simmer 10-15 minutes or until skin of beans peels off when gently blown on.
Pour beans and the water of the boiling into pot with all other ingredients. Stir.
If using crock-pot, cook at least 8 hours on the “low” setting, uncovering in the last hour.
If using bean crock in oven, bake 6-8 hours at 250 F.
Serve with hot dogs, Polish sausage, sweet bread, or whatever is desired. Especially good with “hobo bread.”
Hobo bread:
Ingredients:
2.5 cup whole wheat flour
2 teaspoons baking soda
1 teaspoon salt
2 cups buttermilk
1/2 cup molasses
(optional: 1 cup raisins or chopped nuts)
Mix all ingredients well. Pour into either 1 standard sized greased bread loaf pan or 2 standard sized greased coffee cans. Bake 45 minutes at 350 F. Serve warm.
A. Rsays
Esteleth: That sounds incredibly good. I have a Christmas (Plum) pudding recipe as well that I’ll give you as you gave me both recipes.
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
Aw, thanks A.R.!
I have no fucking clue why that is called “hobo bread,” but it is made of teh awesome.
Esteleth, Who is Totally Not a Dog or Ferretsays
I forgot to ask if you were ok with Imperial measurements or if you needed metric conversions. I couldn’t remember if you were a Yank or not.
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, purveyor of candy and liessays
Totally bankrupt except for this:
A. R:
Just watched a video detailing a method for the preparation of a Doritos Consommé.
Are you kidding me? That sounds absolutely fucking delicious.
OM NOM NOM.
A. Rsays
Esteleth: I’m ok with both (lab work and all). I’m actually something of and odd American, as my family’s been in the US since the 1600’s, but we’ve managed to behave more like British people for some reason (Thus my recipes).
Pteryxx
The contrast between “dead” and “fucked up” is logistic.
Is it better to have wide open spaces with a pile of rotting corpses or
a bunch of surly Others™ who may or may not make good servants?
….aaand I’m off this topic, too.
janinesays
My house smells—nay, reeks—of Lysol.
And so does the office.
I hate the smell of Lysol.
Cicely, try looking up the original use of Lysol.
You will have a physical reaction.
chigau (√-1)says
Esteleth
Your baked bean recipe is very close to mine!
It went to the last pot-luck with great success.
-there were no left-overs, I had tinned soup when I came home :(
Bill, #454: Yeah, I saw that link repeatedly in the NYT thread, but I haven’t had a chance to listen yet. Readers warned that the audio of Schoolcraft being dragged off to the psych hospital was chilling.
Esteleth, #465:
The US government does not perpetrate genocide! They’re good.
I despair.
The Sailor, #472: No, I didn’t “quotemine it,” thank you. His correct observation that Santorum and the Taliban are exactly alike doesn’t override his concern-trolling of American women that we shouldn’t be paying so much attention to our own rights. I have no fucking idea why that sentiment even belongs in a post about Afghanistan. Has he ever suggested that poor Americans should stop whining because they have it better than poor Afghans do? Didn’t think so.
Note to self: It doesn’t matter if it was a bad day or not, raw brownie batter is a bad idea.
Sometimes I think I must be ectothermic. Mild food poisoning and all, my body temperature is still 97.1F. No wonder I feel crummy. (And yes, my thyroid hormone levels are normal. I’m just cold-blooded, apparently.)
Happy Anniversary Caine and Mr. Caine! Here’s to yet more years of being happily together!
————————————–
Gillel:
*quick check to make sure no one is around, clears throat*
FREEEEDOOOOOOOOOOM!
/Braveheart
Best to you and your family. Hope you find a few more pieces of yourself soon.
——————————————
Genocide – yes, the treatment of the Native Americans qualified. We don’t try to kill them en masse anymore, but some like the more insidious method of forbidding the use of native languages, particularly in school, as someone posted about in an earlier ep of TET. Different tactic, and I’m sure some have in mind the same goal as those who slaughtered whole camps full of people did.
——————————————–
Writing about a culture/creating a character from a culture you weren’t born into: Can’t be said enough – RESEARCH. Every scrap of information you can find, take note, follow it, and it might lead to more. See how other authors have done the same, did they succeed or not, are their stories and characters believable enough. Double-check your info, hell, triple-check.
It’s not an easy process – I have a story (unfinished) from many years ago which takes place in a Navajo village, and I couldn’t even guess how many hours I spent hunting online, looking for any bit of information about the culture, dress, ceremonies, that seemed reliable. Looking back, the library would have also been a good choice. I used to have a whole folder of bookmarks purely for the story, but I probably deleted them when I stopped using the attic computer. But it was, for me, lots of fun in the end, this hunt for what I needed to know. If the subject is that you find very interesting, maybe the process will be fun for you as well.
————————————————-
Best wishes to Redhead and Nerd. Even a slow recovery is still good news. And don’t forget the tennis balls for the cane/walker :P.
Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OMsays
Chigau, I once got in a shouting match with someone when I (not expecting an argument) referred to the treatment of the Native Americans as an act of genocide.
Well, it’s rather infuriating that this was an argument that actually happened, but still rather amusing when I misread your post as “shooting match.”
changeable monikersays
Doritos consomme
Aieee. My copy of Beck, Bertholle, and Child is spinning on its shelf!
Esteleth, nom, nom, nom on the beans recipe. I think, I’ll have to try it.
I have never been able to make pintos or navy or any white beans from dried beans. Set overnight, drain, rinse, soak again, drain, rinse, put in crockpot and simmer for 4 – 8 -16 – 24 hours, yep, still hardened beans. Now I just buy them precooked and add my ingredients for red chili or white chili.
A. Rsays
Nutmeg: You keep your house at 97.5 degrees?
Rev. BigDumbChimpsays
Clean out the kitchen risotto for dinner tonight. Not too shabby. Sausage, porchini, morel, lemon, thyme, truffle, parm, parsley.
Not really the best time of year for it in Charleston being that it’s 70ish, but still. I didn’t feel like going to the grocery store.
Tsss, portcullised….
Happy Birthday, PZ
Happy Monkey all around.
Best wishes to your mother (I think that’s always appropriate if you think about how they usually spend the very first birthday of their children)
Forwarded from the end of previous endless thread:
Folks, please guide me here.
Being an atheist of 20+ years, I rarely have to debate anybody about God, faith and other stuff. Recently, I was forced to debate a colleague around the proverbial water cooler.
He belongs to one of the three major world religions. He criticized the other two (one of which is my erstwhile religion) while I am too polite to say to his face what I think of HIS religion.
I talked of American conservatives using Abortion rights and Contraceptives as a way to keep the women in control, and he said if someone thinks the the child she is pregnant with is one too many mouths to feed, she might as well kill one her other children, rather than the terminate the pregnancy.
I have a few questions here:
How do you debate a colleague/friend/acquaintance of faith other than your original faith (i.e. the one that you belonged to before you became an atheist) without seeming to be attacking their religion. This is one of the main reasons I refrain from criticizing someone’s religion. This is not a very effective tactic.
When amateur debaters like us start talking about something, we are forced into positions where we are defending whatever the other person WANTS US TO DEFEND! For example, when we defend abortion RIGHTS, we are instead forced to defend ABORTION itself. I DID NOT talk about abortions with coat hangers when they make it illegal, which is what our position is. We do not defend abortion, we just defend the sad truth that abortion will occur dangerously and often fatally when they are forced underground.
How do you make them realize the irony that they are simultaneously (a) opposing the minority persecution in places where they are minority and (b) supporting the majority rule where they are a majority and (c) supporting the oppression by conversatives in the countries where they are a minority, just because they are conservatives themselves?
Forgot again. Happy Birthday, PZ. Chug one for me.
The “no victims only volunteers” is useful only crudely, when one is experiencing the “falling in the same hole over and over again” problem, and only for the individual experiencing the problem to figure out how to live so as not to fall in that hole again. So I’ve found it useful – I no longer try to accommodate theists so as to find “common ground” once they have demonstrated a complete lack of respect for my beliefs. I don’t tolerate dangerous/abusive people because they wouldn’t be so dangerous/abusive if I were quieter/thinner/prettier/harder working/whatever. I don’t stay in helping relationships where I end up feeling manipulated or used.
What I don’t do is label other people as victims or volunteers based on my desire to avoid feeling the pain of their situation. Victim blaming is a pretty consistent theme in our culture, and I hate seeing it so close to home.
Jesus, that XKCD thread is a trainwreck. One person suggests that a would-be PUA “actually step outside [his] own head for ten minutes and try some basic empathy.” The response: “It’s hard to teach a hungry tiger empathy for their prey.”
Mastmaker, first of all, we should defend abortion. There is nothing wrong with it at all. Pretending that there is concedes ground to the forced-birthers. The “safe, legal, and rare” rhetoric has done the cause of reproductive rights a great deal of damage.
As for your co-worker, he shouldn’t be bringing religious debates into the workplace. Given the amount of prejudice against atheists and the awfulness of the job market, I would not let myself be drawn into such a debate. Just change the subject, and, if pressed, say, “I would rather not talk about religion or politics at work.” That’s not accommodationism; that’s self-preservation.
Uhm. Actually, for many of us here, that’s the ideal tactic. You can’t substantially debate a position held only on religious principles without attacking the religion on which said position is based (unless the person even gets the principles wrong, in which case you could argue “you’re not even consistent with your own beliefs”). If you’re ceding that ground at the start – that religion is unassailable – you’re giving them the “win” before you even fire a shot.
But, if you insist, a good way to start (if you’re uncomfortable with direct attacks on beliefs) is attacking the default framing and assumptions. For instance:
… is a place to start. For most of the time a woman is pregnant (and all of the time an abortion is legally electable), it’s not a child in any recognizable sense. Attack that point, and your opponent is now in the position of defending calling a bunch of cells a human being, which is indefensible from a lot of angles (cancer tumors are usually an easy one).
Further, call out the fact that your opponent is changing the argument (such as from advocating for the right to choose to advocating for abortions). Force them to stay on a topic rather than shifting the goalposts every time they start to lose a point.
I think there’s a list of points and counterpoints on the pharyngula wiki (which I can never remember the link for). But I’m sure others who are better at this sort of thing will give you more.
Sarah Palin
lol wut
Thanks, Richard. Those are wonderful starting points.
I forgot to mention that things were made more complicated with incessant diatribe from a person who thought he was defending me with his incoherent utterings. I literally couldn’t hear myself think amid the cacophony!
Happy birthday, PZ
I wish the wingnuts would get their conspiracy narratives straight.
You can’t.
Furthermore you actually can’t argue most people into positions rationally that they do not hold for rational reasons. You would have to first use emotional argumentation to convince them of the value of the rationality.
Happy Birthday, PZ!!!
Janine – I can’t take any more wingnuttery today. I am so tired of the crazies.
Court case was Wednesday. The Judge dismissed the case in our favor. Next week is Grandmother’s last radiation too. She’s very happy.
Happy Birthday, PZ!!
Mattir!
Good to see you back!
Tell David I miss him. I had a round of sake to remember him by last week.
Glad to hear Ing.
Can I ask why Dispatches From the Culture war feels the need to bash liberals when it comes to the Koch brothers? WTF? Did I miss something?
Horde, I am disappoint in myself.
The day before yesterday, it was a glorious 60 degrees and sunny. Yesterday it was 50 and rainy. Today, I glanced out the window, saw that it was sunny, and left for work in my windbreaker. It was maybe 45, not too bad for 8 am.
Well, now it is fucking 30 and snowing fucking sideways.
And all I have is my windbreaker.
___
I also have a conundrum. Next weekend, I’m driving to NE Ohio to see my grandma for her [big round number] birthday. My grandma’s a hoot and I love her lots (seriously, snarky
octogenariannonagenarian ladies with Ph.D.s rock). She’s an avowed secularist (back in the 50’s she made waves by getting publicly pissy about school prayer), not an atheist, but a secularist. Okay, whatever. Well, here are two issues: firstly, she knows about “new atheism” (i.e. non accommodationalist) and doesn’t like it, because “they’re telling me how to live.” I’m willing to avoid the topic for a few days, but for the second issue:She’s invited me to come to church with her.
Adding to my discomfort, it seems that a few months ago the assistant pastor was arrested for having child porn on his computer. The church has rallied to present a united front against the creep (GOOD) but is also apparently in deep denial about the possibility that he did anything to any of the kids in the church (I don’t know if there’s evidence, and obviously I hope he didn’t, but this denial is BAD).
So, uh…?
Do I keep my mouth shut and go to church, or do I potentially pick a fight with my grandma, who, like I said, is a generally awesome person that I think a lot of?
I always thought that the wingnuts were on the Confederacy’s side, what with the whole “state rights” crap they spout. But whatever makes them happy.
….
Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmm… by any chance would pointing this out here cause an argument or defuse it and allow a polite rejection?
Ing, I have to admit I was halfway sorta planning to “suddenly” realize sunday morning that I need to get on the road because there is Something I Must Do that has a time limit on it.
If by asking if “pointing this out here,” are you referring to my comment itself? She doesn’t read the blog, I can guarantee that. She barely knows how to use email.
@Ing
Yeah, why does being principled give them a free pass when their principles suck?
By pointing out I meant that she doesn’t like people telling her how to live, but is asking you to go to church. Would pointing out that you’d rather not attend a sermon like that but would meet her for food or something after-wards work?
@Esteleth
Let her know you’re an atheist and that you’d be uncomfortable visiting a church service. If she’s as secularist as you say she shouldn’t have a problem. If she does, well you can always pick an argument with the pastor.
Other people do that when invited to service, right?
@Ibyea
Presuming that’s about the Koch’s, I mean more criticizing liberal readers for being paranoid about the Kochs….when the Koch’s actually are openly using their money to try to influence politics, and put their money in a lot of pots.
I mean, it just seems odd to criticize folks of being skeptical of groups that the Koch’s, who are openly working on conspiring to influence political and scientific debates, put money into?
Basically blah blah blah current law suit where the Koch’s are suing for control of Cato proves that Cato wasn’t biased in their favor! WTF? Because Cato isn’t already absurdly biased for their funders and promote pseudoscience? Wanting MORE power doesn’t seem to address their initial complaints…nor frankly does the assurance from Cato members that they’re super dupper acting in good faith!
Oh, okay. Sorry, missed what you were trying to say.
That may work. I’ll give it a shot.
Of course, that requires me to explain that I don’t want to go to church (and answer the inevitable “why” question).
Bah.
I may use the alternate cop-out of meeting my non-Christian uncle (aka her son, who she knows better than to invite to church) and his partner for breakfast.
Just politely decline. Since your grandma is an awesome person, she’ll likely understand and not probe further. Given she dislikes the idea of being told how to live, I sincerely doubt she’d feel a need to do it to you.
My grandma’s a staunch Catholic, but she knows I’m not a Christian, so she never asks me to go to church when I visit.
Mattir, #4: Well, that’s the problem with those sorts of slogans: Their applicability is only very crude and specific only to certain situations, but they get used like the proverbial sledgehammer for neurosurgery.
Ing, #13: Awesome. I’m so glad it all worked out.
Also, I just threw in on that thread about Cato.
Esteleth: I’d say something along the lines of, “I’m an atheist, grandma. I don’t believe in god. I’m not comfortable in a church. Tell you what, you go to church, I’ll go visit my uncle/take a walk/[whatever], and we’ll meet up afterward for lunch.”
If she’s as tough an old lady as you portray her as, she’ll cope. If she gets offended and defensive, you are going to have to re-evaluate how you relate to her, because she’s attempting to police an important part of who you are.
Of course, you could cop out, but you may end up kicking yourself for it.
I probably am way over-intellectualizing this. Probably how this will actually go is this:
Grandma: Esteleth, do you want to go to church?
Me: No thanks, Grandma.
Grandma: Okay, that’s fine.
Bah. *kicks self in it the self-dobut*
Esteleth, I overanalyze relatively simple potential interactions, too. It can be hard when you care about someone and you have some significant differences of opinion with them.
@Ing
I was talking more along the lines of CATO. Brayton was talking about how oh no, CATO is principled in civil liberties, so we should leave CATO alone. CATO can’t possibly be influenced by the Kochs! They are libertarians, not conservatives. Yeah, like that makes things better.
@Ing:
Dispatches is criticizing liberals for immediately thinking Cato = Heritage, when it’s evident that Cato is a lot less republican-mouthpiece than Heritage is. Whether that means they’re the shining start of progressivism or not isn’t the issue. He thinks working with “liberaltarian” groups like Cato would be a good thing.
And as a note:
I still think libertarians are awful – deluded and cruel and out of touch with reality.
Happy Birthday, PZ!
Yeah, Daisy. I do that a lot.
I think it’s extra-hard here because I’ve always been very fond of her and uh…
…well, she’s going to be ninety and her health isn’t what it once was…
Uh…
I’m sure you understand what I’m incapable of typing.
Yes.
And that’s as good an excuse as any to forget one’s principles for a bit and just let the issue slide, whether that be intellectual cowardice or not.
I’ll not quote Dan Savage in this case, since it isn’t really relevant.
Welcome back, Menyambal! I hope that your “physical ills” are a thing of the past.
–
*hugs* and *chikkensoop* for CC. Exhaustion-flu is no fun attall.
–
–
Ahhhh, the temporary bliss of faster loading times!
–
*confetti/champagne/reallyexpensivechocolates*
–
This is something I’ve not seen much about, banks foreclosing on churches.
Honestly, I’m not sure how to feel about this, especially since many of the churches being foreclosed on are smallish, and probably were deceived in much the same way that people getting loans for houses they couldn’t afford were.
Reviving the bad building design conversation…
http://www.cracked.com/article_19682_5-most-embarrassing-architectural-failures.html
Frank Gehry’s buildings are not only ugly and leaky, but, for a while, one of them was shooting heat rays that warmed up neighboring condos by 15 degrees Fahrenheit and nearly blinded drivers at traffic lights.
Zugswang, while I don’t have much sympathy for churches of any sort, the phenomenon is yet another data point in the class war being waged against the vast majority of us, and I could cope if it ended up rallying xtians to reconsider their political allegiances.
Okay, this is just…
Wisconsin state Assembly approves limiting reasons person can be recalled from office
So, would amending the state constitution to prohibit your own recall while the petitions to recall you are being verified count as violating the state code of ethics?
Best Photoshop job ever! Read the comments, too. :-)
TSIB.
Weeeeeeeaksaaaaaaaauce. Not much worse than Gustav Peichl who designed the house my parents live in. So few right angles in there it’s impractical to live in; very large, but the rooms are so small it’s impractical to live in!
The first thing I’d do would be to send her a private message about everything you just told us.
Huh. Are you sure you’re talking about a community college in the US and not about a French university?
(No matter how good your French is, I triple-dog-dare you to look for anything on a French university website and then actually find it.)
*headdesk*
…please don’t walk on the ?green? what is this I don’t even
What does that mean? Is that the out-of-cheese error message?
Why?
Were there ever any Norse traders in China? And the northern route was frozen and, well, simply unknown.
Of course, none of this applies to tales of the wall spreading, perhaps via Arab traders; but when the head (and indeed much of the wall) is so much younger, that makes it less plausible.
It’s specifically “Letters into the Chinese past”, Briefe in die chinesische Vergangenheit. It’s pretty amazing, and the exoticization is mostly averted by taking it for granted and only portraying where modern western/German culture differs. What I couldn’t get over is that the author has no, and I mean no, clue about any kind of Chinese language. Uses letters and digraphs from 5 to 10 different transcription systems and throws them around like confetti. That kind of knowledge could have greatly enhanced his portrayal of the wacky German language – he tries a little bit of that, but faaaaar too little. The time traveler even takes the concept of conjugation for granted. *facepalm*
BTW, there’s a reason in the story why the time traveler ends up in Germany: he wanted to travel to future China, but didn’t know the Earth rotates. His first letter home (on time-travel paper) says “oh fuck, it’s all over, the barbarians have overrun the Great Wall, total dystopia, abandon all hope”. Of course, materializing right in the middle of a big road didn’t help.
No, why? The two-party system is built into the big-C Constitution. As I never tire to explain, that’s because 1) there’s no separation of head of state and head of government; 2) the election of the POTUS is an election of a single person, not a whole party or something; 3) such competitions always come down to a duel, so when each candidate accretes a party behind themself for support, you’re left with two parties; 4) the Founding Fathers didn’t like parties – and believed they’d never form if they simply shied away from mentioning them. *headdesk* That’s why Americans can’t have nice things.
What can in principle happen is that the Tea Party could make the Reptilians shrink to the point that, briefly, there’d be a one-party system; one or maybe two elections later, the Democrats would split into a more or less European-style conservative party and something to the left of that. That’s what I daydream of.
It’s not that weird, actually. You’ve just been working too much. :-)
(Literally so in one of the Fu Manchu movies – I’ve watched 1 or 2. The end: “I now need an ingenious idea immediately, or I shall die.” *fireball half the size of the temple he’s in* *fireball 1 1/2 the size of the temple* *fireball at least 3 times the size of the temple* *Smith watches from distance and goes away* *face of Fu Manchu occupies top of screen and says:* “You err again, Mr Smith! I, Dr Fu Man Chu*, live –”
* That annoying space is only there in the German version; in that version, you can actually hear it as a pause.
:-) :-) :-)
:-) :-) :-)
:-) :-) :-)
No, you just need to stay on teh Thread. Nothing is being organized yet, we still have a few months.
:-o
O horror.
Manuscripts? That stuff wasn’t written down. What we have was written down in Iceland after everyone had at least nominally converted, by Christians, in Latin letters.
They’re afraid. They’re very afraid. :-)
*slow-motion facepalm*
Too tired for HULK SMASH today. It’s good the world doesn’t depend on my morals.
Interesting how homosexuality just falls under “sexual promiscuity” for those people.
I can’t help getting the impression they’re among those who simply don’t know that heterosexuals even exist. They have no idea what they’re ranting about!
That is not funny. “Hi, I’m dangerously violent! Deeply annoying to meet you! :-) *wave*”
~:-| If you’re not attracted to him, how did you start dating him in the first place? I don’t understand that part.
^_^
Happiness is a warm cat. ^_^
Who cares? Just another way to show that solipsism and the like aren’t falsifiable. :-)
:-) :-) :-)
Wonderful.
Ah, yeah, that one. We talked about that a few… years ago somewhere on Pharyngula, probably on TET. Yep, it probably is doing exactly what you suspect.
*chocolate*
Lynn Margulis.
Oh, I forgot to tell you they’re working on it.
At artificially making spider silk, I mean.
Experts agree, sez German news feature.
Oh fuck. I’m almost getting sick here.
I fear she needs to fall in hetero love very quickly. :-S
Awesome!!!
*want*
=8-)
I’m sure he is. :-)
Breitbart, the 1st man in history to be assassinated because he knew too little.
Esteleth:
I get it. I, personally, avoid engaging senior citizens about faith unless it’s forced upon me, at which point, I no longer heed those inhibitions.
As much as I do not like letting people indulge in harmful ignorance and am quick to speak out against that which I see as nonsensical, there is a point at which I feel it’s simply best to leave well enough alone.
My rationale is such: this is a person who has likely spent decades raised in, and invested in, a perpetually reinforced paradigm that something is waiting for them after this life. It is a simple, but omnipresent idea that likely informs most of what they had done up until that point. Even for those of us who were only believers for a relatively short while, the process of conversion is long, and sometimes painful for many reasons. I’m not into causing unnecessary pain, so I’d rather not be the cause of an existential crisis that is extremely unlikely to resolve itself. Especially when the negative impact that could come from this person’s influence is so small as to be benign, or completely non-existent.
David:
“Please don’t walk on the grass if you are going across.”
They also hung helpful explanatory signs about the acronym, including the fact that it was first coined in 1932 by the Provost. These signs included photographs of the college president at the time and of students with whistles chasing people who are walking on the grass.
Yes, really.
*follows link*
*pounces at onion girl*
*hugs*
*squeezes*
…
*uses confusion to grab all the bacon donuts and eat them*
Happy birthday, PZ. ^_^
I think that comes close to “so bad it’s good”.
…I hope so. :-/
I don’t.
Someone here needs professional help.
And it’s not you.
The alt-text is awesome.
This, basically.
It is an excellent school, but many of the admin’s attitudes and choices seem to be predicated on the idea of, “Well, no matter what happens, we will piss someone off. What do we do? I know! Let’s do what will piss everyone off!”
David M:
The short answer to this is that I’m too shy and too busy with school to meet guys in real life, so I use OkCupid. Generally I don’t know if I’m going to be attracted to someone when I first go out with them. This particular guy is very nice and we have a lot in common, so we went out a few times. Unfortunately, I was completely not into it when he kissed me, and once he left I went and brushed my teeth compulsively and felt terrible for the rest of the night. I’m the opposite of experienced, but I don’t think that’s a good sign. And now I’m going to need to tell him I don’t feel any chemistry, when he seems to. Fuck.
[/angst]
The long answer about why I do this kind of thing in general is complicated and I don’t feel like getting into it right now, but I will probably pick the Horde’s brains at some point in the future.
***
Happy thoughts:
-I may have figured out what’s causing my [critters I study] to die. If I’m right, they should stop dying next week, and there may still be some of them around when they reach the stage I’m interested in.
-Geese should start to arrive back in my area next week. I know they’re overpopulated and a nuisance species in urban areas, but I love seeing the first goose of the year.
-Two months to fishing season!
David Marjanović and others, thanks for the greetings.
David, thanks for the Microraptor links. I was trying to make sense of the layout of the airfoils on the little guy, when your explanation that the legs were rotated wrongly finally clicked in my brain. (I do wish that artists would not take liberties for artistic reasons.)
DavidM: “cheese-moving” …?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F
—
Esteleth: “Please don’t walk on the grass if you are going across.”
http://www.peterme.com/archives/000073.html
OK, I understand the problem with the new Voter ID laws and how they’re disenfranchising.
What I don’t understand is why you have to register to vote in the US.
Why are you not automatically issued some sorta federal (or for that matter State) ID when you turn 18?
Aside from the obvious answer that a majority of politicians don’t want the poor to vote, of course. I assume that’s not the official argument. Right?
Menyambal. Cool. Glad you are about again.
PZ ,
Happy Birthday!
Thanks to onion girl for organising!
Menyambal, Mattir
waves.
Waves again to SallyStrange
CCC, 618
Sorry to hear it. I can somewhat relate. My situation is not completely comparable, but I see similarities, and my situation recently has been near to unbearable. Sorry don’t like to write about these things publicly in the internet. Happy to talk about by email though.
Also would like to echo Giliell’s offer in helping with German. My email can be found behind the link.
Ing
Great news about your grandmother!
Alethea 563, ruteekatreya 583, Giliell, 632, David M. 42: Orientalism
I talked with my Taiwanese English lit friend. My head is still dizzy from Michel Foucalt, Edward Said and Robert J.C. Young. But I think I might have been even too “lenient”, my acceptance of works like that by Hughart informed by my own western biases (as I said I’m bicultural).
However I will wait for Giliell’s response first.
love moderately, 591
Ah yes, I was imprecise. I specifically meant Congress as mentioned as in Art. I. Art. II referring to the President does have some specifications, which I was aware of.
I was gonna write that changing the way Congress is elected would be more important, but I do remember speculations about Bloomberg running as an independent in 2008. The idea was to amass enough electors so he would be able to make a deal with one of the other candidates, and become something like a prime minister. It could work in theory.
But I still think that minority righs (meaning any kind of minority here, including the losing side of an election) would benefit more from changes to the way Congress is elected.
But as I said, these are all daydreams.
And since it fits thematically, pulling some of David M. 42’s
I explicity said I was daydreaming. I know enough about the US political system that it is far from likely to happen. But
1.-3. The Bloomberg strategy in 2008, would have tried to work around this. A third party candidate would become some kind of prime minister or super secretary, and would negotiate in the EC with their electors. A long shot by any means, but still…
4. However if I understand LM correctly, there is no provision in Art I that would mandate a first-past-the-post system. So it could be changed. It is not set in stone.
pelamun, 628
(plug) Dutch angel statue call line (I hope I did the flickr attribution thing correctly)
Ace of Sevens, 629
This post might have something to do with it.
Katherine, 631
Hehe, you’re right, that’s probably what made me smirk. It’s just they seemed to have all these other wikihows, “how to be a good Christians” and all that. Maybe these were subversive too?
Giliell, 632
We had a teacher like that. He was participating in the Oder Neiße runs and what have you. But he was ridiculed by all. In tenth grade the class president was tasked with telling him that we now wanted to be addressed by Sie. Pissed him off mightily, he retaliated with pop quizzes.
Mattir, 643
I always find it sad if I see talented people dedicating their lives to some religion, anywhere.
theophontes, 652
I am a sinophile, just don’t like the CCP.
Nice pictures. Where were these taken exactly?
Also, that character in the one picture is 囚 qiú as in 囚犯 qiúfàn “prisoner” (the character shows a person 人 rén literally imprisoned in a box)
SQB, 653
LOL. At least they do share the uvular plosive. The joys of Arabic class…
Ms. Daisy Cutter, 676
There were also some rather puzzling political cartoons.
mastmaker, 679 & 2
I agree with the others that
– abortion should absolutely be defended.
– if discussing religious belief as an atheist, you will not be able to avoid offending the sensibilities of a religious person. I mean your position ultimately is that they believe in something that doesn’t exist
– you shouldn’t feel compelled to discuss religion at the workplace
Esteleth, 18
Wow, I envy you. I wish my grandmothers would have lived until their 90s.
David M.
Additional googling in English, Chinese and Swedish, I think we can say they were in the Middle East for sure, maybe as far as Persia and Central Asia, and this Swedish forum here quotes some Arabic source as claiming that they made it up to India and China.
Oh they had a quote in English:
OK, but maybe I shall join Facebook anyways.
Richard Austin, 41
I don’t see how that would work. Gov. Walker will probably face recall elections this year, and a constitutional amendment in Wisconsin has to be passed by two consecutive state legislatures. (Source)
Nutmeg, 51
I can understand. If there’s no chemistry, there is none. I used to be terrified of telling people such news. I’ve gotten a little better over the years, but some basic modicum of angst still remains.
omake
here’s one of the creepiest election videos I’ve seen. Though the US has probably a lot of creepy stuff too (just thinking about the Herman Cain’s perplexing video)
OK, time to watch Germany’s answer to the Daily Show!
PZ ,
Happy Birthday!
Thanks to onion girl for organising!
Menyambal, Mattir
waves.
Waves again to SallyStrange
CCC, 618
Sorry to hear it. I can somewhat relate. My situation is not completely comparable, but I see similarities, and my situation recently has been near to unbearable. Sorry don’t like to write about these things publicly in the internet. Happy to talk about by email though.
Also would like to echo Giliell’s offer in helping with German. My email can be found behind the link.
Ing
Great news about your grandmother!
Alethea 563, ruteekatreya 583, Giliell, 632, David M. 42: Orientalism
I talked with my Taiwanese English lit friend. My head is still dizzy from Michel Foucalt, Edward Said and Robert J.C. Young. But I think I might have been even too “lenient”, my acceptance of works like that by Hughart informed by my own western biases (as I said I’m bicultural).
However I will wait for Giliell’s response first.
love moderately, 591
Ah yes, I was imprecise. I specifically meant Congress as mentioned as in Art. I. Art. II referring to the President does have some specifications, which I was aware of.
I was gonna write that changing the way Congress is elected would be more important, but I do remember speculations about Bloomberg running as an independent in 2008. The idea was to amass enough electors so he would be able to make a deal with one of the other candidates, and become something like a prime minister. It could work in theory.
But I still think that minority righs (meaning any kind of minority here, including the losing side of an election) would benefit more from changes to the way Congress is elected.
But as I said, these are all daydreams.
And since it fits thematically, pulling some of David M. 42’s
I explicity said I was daydreaming. I know enough about the US political system that it is far from likely to happen. But
1.-3. The Bloomberg strategy in 2008, would have tried to work around this. A third party candidate would become some kind of prime minister or super secretary, and would negotiate in the EC with their electors. A long shot by any means, but still…
4. However if I understand LM correctly, there is no provision in Art I that would mandate a first-past-the-post system. So it could be changed. It is not set in stone.
Ace of Sevens, 629
This post might have something to do with it.
Katherine, 631
Hehe, you’re right, that’s probably what made me smirk. It’s just they seemed to have all these other wikihows, “how to be a good Christians” and all that. Maybe these were subversive too?
Giliell, 632
We had a teacher like that. He was participating in the Oder Neiße runs and what have you. But he was ridiculed by all. In tenth grade the class president was tasked with telling him that we now wanted to be addressed by Sie. Pissed him off mightily, he retaliated with pop quizzes.
Mattir, 643
I always find it sad if I see talented people dedicating their lives to some religion, anywhere.
theophontes, 652
I am a sinophile, just don’t like the CCP.
Nice pictures. Where were these taken exactly?
Also, that character in the one picture is 囚 qiú as in 囚犯 qiúfàn “prisoner” (the character shows a person 人 rén literally imprisoned in a box)
SQB, 653
LOL. At least they do share the uvular plosive. The joys of Arabic class…
Ms. Daisy Cutter, 676
There were also some rather puzzling political cartoons.
mastmaker, 679 & 2
I agree with the others that
– abortion should absolutely be defended.
– if discussing religious belief as an atheist, you will not be able to avoid offending the sensibilities of a religious person. I mean your position ultimately is that they believe in something that doesn’t exist
– you shouldn’t feel compelled to discuss religion at the workplace
Esteleth, 18
Wow, I envy you. I wish my grandmothers would have lived until their 90s.
David M.
Additional googling in English, Chinese and Swedish, I think we can say they were in the Middle East for sure, maybe as far as Persia and Central Asia, and this Swedish forum here quotes some Arabic source as claiming that they made it up to India and China.
Oh they had a quote in English:
OK, but maybe I shall join Facebook anyways.
Richard Austin, 41
I don’t see how that would work. Gov. Walker will probably face recall elections this year, and a constitutional amendment in Wisconsin has to be passed by two consecutive state legislatures. (Source)
Nutmeg, 51
I can understand. If there’s no chemistry, there is none. I used to be terrified of telling people such news. I’ve gotten a little better over the years, but some basic modicum of angst still remains.
omake
here’s one of the creepiest election videos I’ve seen. Though the US has probably a lot of creepy stuff too (just thinking about the Herman Cain’s perplexing video)
OK, time to watch Germany’s answer to the Daily Show!
Sili,
There is also the Anglo-Saxon tradition of not registering their citizens. Neither the US nor the UK have a national ID.
I’m not 100% sure about the UK, but in the US, you don’t register your domicile with the authorities, unless you’re a foreigner on a visa. So there would be no way to automatically send election notices.
It’s one of these cultural differences to continental Europe.
The other aspect is that a national ID (or even a state ID) isn’t always current with the correct address. Like, I moved 8 months ago but I don’t get a new license until next year, so it has my old address from 40 miles and two cities away.
That makes voting in local elections harder to manage, since there’d have to be some way to verify you live where you say you live. With registration, you may not actually live there, but if you’re registered there you at least can’t vote anywhere else.
Frankly, I’m disconnected with the culture of my parents, so I have no experience on offense at cultural details by the majority; If you’d like to talk about it at some point while I’m still paying attention to the Endless Thread, that’d be great, but no pressure.
Richard Austin,
that’s not an argument against a national ID. In European countries with obligation to register you have to deregister your old address and register your new one within a couple of weeks usually.
You will then get a new ID card or get some kind of address sticker attached to it.
The UK has the Electoral Register. You have to register to vote, then they’ll send you the notices automatically.
If you register, you’ll (probably) be assessed for council tax, though. No representation without taxation and all that. ;)
Happy birthday, PZ.
I’ve been elected Commode Door of the Yacht Club. The poor suckers will discover their error soon enough.
pelamun:
Never said it was, but it’s an argument for registering, which is Sili’s original question. An ID doesn’t negate the need for registering.
(I’m not against a national ID instead of a state one; for example, I carry my passport pretty much everywhere.)
Ah. “Freeeeeeedommmmmm”
I shoulda known.
Sili: I’m not sure if this piece of U.S. legislation is along the lines of what you’re talking about. Note the “Controversy and Opposition” section.
Also, any sort of federal registration system tends to be a hot button with the paranoid right. This eye-bleedy page gives you a taste of it. Note this section header: “National ID Card, RFID Chip, and Mark of the Beast Coming Soon says Congressman Ron Paul…”
Pelamun: Most of those cartoons are full of fail, and so is the intro. I probably shouldn’t expect anything better from the mainstream media in general and MSNBC in particular.
changeable moniker,
so if you choose not to vote, you could save taxes? How much are we talking? Because if I understand you correctly, unlike on the Continent, you wouldn’t have to register, right?
Richard Austin,
oh yes certainly. I think if you expect the government to provide services then it should actually have an idea where their citizens live.
Happy Birthday, PZ!
From the department of “why was I not informed about this before?”:
http://www.curriesonline.co.uk/
I can have onion bhajiis, chicken tikka biriyani, and a naan bread delivered to my door with just a click of a mouse and a wave of a credit card!
(I’m gonna need a cardiologist.)
onion girl
Fabulous!
It ain’t just a French problem.
“Doubtful, sir. They spell and pronounce their names differently.”
Geese actually leave where you are?
I liked it better when I was biking home in an impending storm and I saw a skein of migrating snow geese overhead at an inconceivable elevation.
Semi-related: the project I got hired to work on created a website a year before I came on. I took a look at it from the perspective of the only real business-person on the project. It has wonderful quotes from Important Persons, raving reviews, long lists of things it’ll help improve or problems it’ll help fix…
… And nowhere on the entire site does it say what the damned thing actually is or does.
We got one email through the site once that literally read, “Sounds nice. What is it?”
@pelamun: “so if you choose not to vote, you could save taxes?”
Unfortunately, no. You’d be done for tax evasion.
“How much are we talking?”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_Tax
Ah. See, I’m shy, attracted to extremely few faces, and too busy sitting holed up in a corner of a building few people know exists (the corner, not the building), so I… don’t do anything at all whatsoever in that direction. :-/ I’ll try to get out a bit when the weather warms up and stuff, and when my apartment becomes presentable.
That’s the part I don’t get: why do you go out together, loaded with expectations and stuff, when you haven’t corresponded enough to know if you like each other that much? Are you just afraid of being too cautious (I probably would be too cautious)?
I’m even less experienced than you, but… if you’re not simply not into kissing in general, if it’s about him personally, I’m pretty sure it’s not a good sign. :-)
Ouch.
Just don’t start with “you’re a nice guy, but”.
Do you think you can stay friends? Or do you think saying so would give him false hopes?
Good!
*scream*
Horror.
There are already states (Maine and Nebraska) that have their electors vote according to the geographical distribution of majorities in the state. In 2008, one of the electors from Nebraska therefore voted for Obama.
Huh. Another generation. Only one teacher ever asked us (though I think in 9th grade), and we declined; we didn’t want that much mental change.
Please tell us more! :-)
I still haven’t joined. One reason is that Facebook becomes more evil every few months.
What would that be? (…But I don’t have TV anyway, so…)
There’s no registration in France either!
The government still knows where you live, though. The trick seems to be the electricity bill, because the French Republic still owns its biggest electricity provider. EdF (Électricité de France) bills are considered very important documents and must be kept for 5 years.
Here in Germany I had to register within 2 weeks upon arrival.
No such thing in Austria. But everyone has a passport, a driver’s licence and/or a… well, Personalausweis… I don’t even know what that’s good for or how to get it, but lots of people have such a thing and use it as proof of their existence whenever other people use their passport. Anyway, nobody is automatically issued any such thing, and the three things I mentioned are accepted as proof of ID in polling stations.
I got a sheet of paper (Meldebestätigung). In Austria, too, the confirmation of registration is a sheet of paper (Meldezettel).
Paul believes in the Mark of the Beast?
As Sili said: “Freeeeeeedommmmmm” – the government must not know where to send the black helicopters.
(And yes, everybody is important enough to warrant black helicopters being sent after them.)
I think the French ones are actually worse than that. Look, one of my almae matres. Perhaps click around a bit, mwahah.
Perhaps I’ll come in
tomorrowlater today and/or on Sunday, but I don’t know how likely that is.David M.,
will respond to your other bits later.
However, just one thing: Art I is about Congress, not the President.
Molly.
Molly.
Molly.
Ing, happy dance IRT the court case!
+++++++++++++++
Zugswang, all those churches being foreclosed on just need to prey harder. Fuck ’em.
If the church didn’t wake up when their congregation was being foreclosed on then they all need is a clue x 4.
+++++++++++++++
CATO was founded by the Koch suckers, those libertoonians are right about as often as Wrong Paul is.
I say pass the popcorn, it’s cute when they eat their own.
+++++++++++++++
Esteleth, I’m going with the ‘just tell her, she’ll understand’ folks. Maybe something along the lines of “Gramma, I’ve learned a lot from you, and one of the things is …” approach.
And maybe you’re doing the overthinking that I do, creating scenarios of how conversations might happen. I have yet to be successful at that;-)
And if she says something like ‘just do it for me?’, you are on your own. But don’t make up an excuse.
Me, I won’t go to services, I won’t attend funerals, but that’s just me.
+++++++++++++++++
‘Tis – “I’ve been elected Commode Door of the Yacht Club.”
Conga rats! Can I get reciprocal privileges?
+++++++++++++++++
There has been a huge fight over the years in the USA about the census needing stats, and the IRS and the Social Security Admin requiring national IDs. The compromise was that they couldn’t share the info.
And both the left and the right objected in all the above cases. And I kinda agree with both positions. A country needs to be able to track trends, but not individuals.
Mollymollymollymollymollymollymollymollymolly
David Marjanović, that horror is indeed the cheese-moving that I was referring to.
In Australia we share the aversion to identity cards. We have compulsory voting (which works very well, thank you) and it’s required that you be on the electoral roll and notify changes of address.
Pelamun, I started rereading Bridge of Birds, and you may like to know that “Number Ten Ox” is not a name, but a nickname. Number ten son, strong as an ox, and as dumb as an ox! (Or maybe not so dumb…)
I do struggle with the orientalism issue. It seems to me like in some ways it’s a “good racism” (oxymoron intended) – a gateway between bigotry and multiculturalism. It’s good to know more about other cultures. It’s good not to pretend that Ango-Europeans are the only people who matter, the only people who have art or myth or adventure. But I can’t always pick which side of the gateway a particular work is on. Especially the more modern ones – the Victoriana is so much more obvious.
Also, if you’re prone to occasional outbursts of retarded fuckwittery like myself, it might get you into trouble. I actually feel less exposed since my profile was deactivated, and I don’t miss it at all. If I want to communicate or stay up to date, I can use twitter. Although at the moment that one is full with this pribble thing slimily swarming all over PZ.
I became so upset today that my hands trembled.
Why?
Because of an online discussion.
Here’s my problem:
I don’t have an area of expertise, not brilliant nor visionary, am not especially eloquent; I admit to being run of the mill. But damn it I have a perspective and for what ever reason I feel like I need to defend it! Anyone else in a situation like mine and what do you bring to a discussion to compensate?
Ugh, sometimes I hate talking with my mother.
She called today and went on a rant about how Obamacare is ruining everything (most of it hasn’t even go into effect yet!). Then you went on a rant about how she shouldn’t have to pay for other people’s health care and she has so much money taken from her in taxes and she doesn’t get anything out of it. I tried to explain to her that it was a social contract and that she’s gotten help from the government lots of times (we were on WIC at one point, she has gotten and continues to get pell grants for school (and so so I), etc). But apparently everyone on welfare now a days is just lazy and manipulating the system (she actually needed it when she was on it and worked hard). And I told her that that’s a myth and statistically untrue. She tried to pull that “you’ll understand when you’re older” bullshit. As if I’m incapable understanding reality because I’m only 20 years old. She said that we’re each entitled to our own opinions and I said “well, yes, but you’re not entitled to your own facts.”
I try to educate her, but she won’t listen. She just starts shouting about how awful Obama is (literally shouting, she gets loud when she gets frustrated).
Alethea,
let me just quickly reply to this one:
Even positive characterisations can be instances of appropriation. For instance, Turandot is a positive Chinese (Persian/Uyghur) figure in western literature, but that doesn’t make it less of an exercise of cultural dominance. It boils down to the question “Why can Puccini call this a story that happened in China?”.
Of course non-western people have their myth and adventure, why not read them directly? In a way seeing non-western culture through the lens of western authors deprives non-western authors of their chance of telling their story on their own terms (for instance fewer of their works will be translated into western languages).
People have now started to translate Jin Yong’s works into English. I believe all Four Great Classical Novels, the Journey to the West, the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, the Water Margin and Dream of the Red Chamber, have all been translated.
StarStuff
Last I remember your were 19.
Happy belated Birthday.
(I’m probably older than your mother but I pull that “you’ll understand when you’re older” shit only on people younger than 13.)
and here’s one for the Canadians: Icelanders considering adopting the loonie
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/03/05/decline_watch_are_countries_going_loonie
And their god just watches with gay abandon :
Banks foreclosing on churches in record numbers
In short: because people are lazy. Or to be kinder, time-poor.
It’s hard to grapple with the whole big bang of another culture when it’s *everything* that’s unfamiliar – language, idioms, customs, diet, names, tropes, religion, references to other well-known stories and famous places and historical buildings and art works – well, everything!
Analogously, I am not Greek, and I didn’t read the works of Aeschylus or Homer first thing. I started with retellings of the Greek myths for children. I read Mary Renault’s Theseus novels. By the time I read adult translations of the actual classic Greek plays and poems, I already knew who the gods were, and who the main characters were, and what the names sounded like and a few words of the language, and where Troy was, and Mycenae and Ithaca and Knossos, and what Athena’s aegis was, and what Poseidon was god of, and so on and on. I had the background.
Story tellers translate the world for us. Good story tellers do it respectfully and well. I might hope that it does not deprive the non-western authors too much, perhaps even increases the market by creating interest, but I don’t know that for sure. I certainly sought out and enjoyed reading (an abridged) Journey to the West after watching the Monkey Magic TV show.
David M.: “Paul believes in the Mark of the Beast?” He’s a far right-wing xtian, so I’m sure he does.
Alethea, a good translator of novels who has sufficient familiarity with the culture in question can provide you with a good story to read that is also a learning exercise.
Ancient Greece does not strike me as a good analogy to modern China or even ancient China when you’re talking about the familiarity of the culture to the average Westerner. Modern Western culture still draws a great deal from ancient Greek culture; Westerners who have never read the plays or the myths use expressions such as “sour grapes.”
Petermountain, I’m sorry, I saw “Patrick Henry College” in the sidebar and stopped reading. There are some websites on which nothing good will ever happen.
Starstuff, the best thing you can do is just calmly say, “Mom, this conversation isn’t going to go anywhere good. I will talk to you later. Goodbye,” and hang up, then ignore the phone if she calls back immediately. This may not be entirely viable, obviously, if you’re still financially dependent on her, but it’s a standard means of setting boundaries with relatives or friends who lack them.
Also, I am compulsively reading that entire XKCD thread all the way through. My god, it’s full of dumb. Not just sociopath, not just asshole, but dumb.
One minor example:
OK, I lied. Another example:
Thomathy is in there trying to argue with them, in particular one guy who doesn’t understand that “Sexual attraction operates on an individual level” does not validate his claim that all straight women experience sexual attraction in one way while all straight men experience it in another.
I believe the technical term is “head wood”. (“Head wood would would” is the punchline to a completely different joke, of course.)
Oh, lol, I didn’t even realize PZ had a post up on the XKCD strip until 20 minutes ago! Durp.
I freaking love Marydoodles. That painting sold on ebay for 500 dollars. I could not believe it.
Ms Daisy Cutter, that’s exactly my point! While I’m not Greek, let alone ancient Greek, it’s familiar to me with all the background I have. I wasn’t born knowing it; my childhood prepared me to read those stories. Of course I read Aesop’s fables. Greek is less alien to me than Chinese precisely because of that.
My childhood has NOT prepared me for more distant cultures. I can’t just jump in and read Wu Cheng’en or the Ramayana in the same way that I can jump in and read Homer or the Bible. And no-one can ever become globally culturally fluent; there are simply too many different cultures for one human lifetime. And so I believe that there is a totally legitimate role for writers who serve as faithful and imaginative interpreters. Not just travel-writers and direct translators, but also imaginative presentations.
This does not mean that all story-tellers are respectful to the traditions that they are using in their work. Some are, and some aren’t. But of course I lack the education to tell them apart, unless their disrespect is quite obvious. (Which still happens sadly often.)
Rey Fox, 71
Yeah, I’m in the Great White North and there’s very little open water here in winter. My city has a flock of about 40 mallards that stick around all winter and feed in a sewage lagoon, but I haven’t seen geese between December and March.
David M, 74
I can’t speak for everyone who does online dating, but I’ve found that first dates are very casual. There aren’t a lot of expectations. I personally don’t like to correspond for too long, because then there’s not very much to talk about on the first date. Many people don’t want to invest a lot of time and energy in corresponding and then go on a first date and find that there’s no physical attraction.
And as for why I sometimes go on second dates when I’m not sure if I like someone, it’s actually pretty rare for me to be attracted to a guy at first sight. Or, if I’m being honest with myself, at all. I used to think that I must be straight, because that’s the null hypothesis, and when I was religious I thought it was the only okay way to be. But pretty much as soon as I started having serious doubts about God and therefore not being as sexually repressed, my mind and body were like, “Hey! Have you noticed you like girls?” Over the past few years, my estimation of where I sit on the Kinsey scale has been going up steadily. My New Year’s resolution was to stop being angsty about it and just figure it out. Hence, online dating, which is an efficient way of meeting lots of guys and collecting data on how I feel about them. I haven’t given up on guys yet, but so far it’s not looking good. Meeting girls will be more complicated, but it’s the next logical step. I just need to get up some guts and do it.
All right, male-identified people of the Horde, do you have opinions about this? Too late to do me any good – I just finished talking to the guy I was seeing – but I’m curious.
I’ve heard that, when you first met someone in a dating situation and it wasn’t a very long relationship, it’s better not to try to stay friends when it’s over. That seems logical to me.
StarStuff, 83
My sympathies. I don’t usually have to have this argument with people, but I’d like to point out how freaking AWESOME socialized medicine is. Having the government pay for my inhalers means that a) I have meds that keep me from ending up in the emergency room needing much more expensive care, b) I don’t have to choose between paying tuition and paying for (very expensive) inhalers, and c) I can be active, which prevents problems later in life. As well, socialized medicine allowed me to have two large birthmarks removed a few months ago, as a precaution against melanoma, without any cost to me.
I think that access to affordable healthcare means that a lot of problems get dealt with early on, and a lot of money is saved in the end. Unfortunately, you probably won’t be able to convince your mother of this. I agree that it’s probably better to stay out of the conversation.
Sorry, Alethea, I misread what you were saying. I thought you meant that you could not have eventually appreciated reading the ancient plays without all the preceding study.
If your research time is limited, I guess you could look at the one-star reviews on Amazon for any novel along those lines you’re interested in reading and see if the issue of exoticism comes up therein. Or google on the title plus “exoticism” or “Orientalism” or “fetishization.”
Unrelated: Someone put this video together. I admire the dedication, I guess…
Nutmeg:
It’s also true for longer relationships. (Unless you have children together, in which case you will need to see one another regularly and therefore have to work out a means of getting along.)
On the other hand, once enough time goes by, it’s possible to have a friendship with an ex. It’s just that right afterward isn’t a good time.
Mostly threadrupt, but the passing mention of Richard Feynman in the posts about the xkcd/PUA comments reminded me of this site, which I stumbled upon during a conversation about Feynman on the user forum of an entirely different sort of website than this one.
I don’t know Feynman’s biography well enough to know whether the story about him “negging” has any validity. I do know he had a fascination with strippers (some of whom are the models for some of the sketches at that link), but the comment about him quoted here had a whiff of unsupported slander about it. Plus, the nudes among his sketches speak (to me, at least) of a more generous, nuanced view of women than seems consistent with skeevy PUA shallowness.
Bonus Points: I rediscovering that site, I discovered (for the first time) that there’s a little game that turns any of the images into a virtual jigsaw puzzle that you can reassemble on screen. It’s a somewhat quirky way to appreciate art, but oddly compelling.
PS: Welcome back, Mattir. Sorry for your troubles; happy you’re getting past them. Also welcomes, cheers, and condolences to those who need them and who I’ve missed.
HI, THREAD!
Ms. Daisy Cutter, Gynofascist in a Spiffy Hugo Boss Uniform, yeah, that guys was a spectacular moron. If that conversation were in real life, I actually would have started yelling. I can stand to repeat myself when I’m not being understood, but I become very frustrated when the person exhibits some level of understanding that indicates the ability to understand and then fails spectacularly at understanding.
It’s a good thing that that particular douche just stopped posting.
Thanks for recognising my efforts over there. It’s been harrowing, but invigorating. (Visit the XKCD thread here at Pharyngula to find out, everyone.)
Any chance that you’ll wade into the muck? It’s a lonely, if exciting world. Also, I just caught up with the entire thread and the stupid got slightly worse.
For instance:
For everyone who just joined the thread, I presented this scenario:
You’re talking to a girl. She seem uninterested. You can:
1. Go talk to someone else, which can build her interest (manipulative)
2. Go say you want to do something else, which can make her try to convince you to stay (manipulative)
3. Keep talking to her (creepy and counterproductive)
If all 3 of those options are unethical, then you’ve just checkmated a guy into not being able to do anything.
That’s by ddxxdd. He’s a special one, toxic even.
Happy Birthday, PZ!
Anyone who wades into that pile of muck at xkcd will win my Special Award for Services to the Fora. It is completely unofficial but I will award it to you in my heart.
I’ve made a ton of posts in the thread (to preserve some vestige of my anonymity I won’t say which person I am), but it’s absolutely exhausting.
ddxxdd is a massive creep. His comments about domestic violence alone make him so. But he also wrote, “Agency is not a right; either you have it or you don’t.”
He’s the same idiot who made what he thought was the snappy rebuttal about chimps and bonobos that I quoted upthread. He refers to PUA tactics as “courting a girl.” And he seems unable to understand that the same action can have a different moral weight depending on motive.
While he doesn’t give off the JESUS CHRIST RUN!! vibe that, say, the MRAs regularly featured on Manboobz do, I wouldn’t want to be alone with him, either.
Well, you should run screaming, screaming a warning, from anyone who thinks and admits to thinking that, ‘Agency is not a right; either you have it or you don’t.’ because chances are, from his perspective, you fall into the ‘don’t’ category. I wouldn’t even let things without agency alone with someone with such a sociopathic thought.
I don’t know. Personally, I get the “JESUS CHRIST RUN!!” vibe from him in spades.
I mean, even though he doesn’t say totally blatantly evil things like lots of MRAs, I get the feeling that’s because he’s just (slightly) better at disguising it. His arguments about the jealousy plotlines are, I am convinced, deliberately intended to misrepresent the tactic to the reader (that is, they’re more than just a self-protective defense mechanism — I think he actually understands what the whole PUA thing is about and is trying to prevent others from finding out).
Eigenperson, he does a bad job at keeping it a secret. I got shivers when I read one particular comment by him, but I can’t remember which one …but damn it was some creepy shit.
And, too soon perhaps, but good night thread. I’ll be back tomorrow, since I’ve engaged you.
I got mostly angries when reading his comments, not shivers, but yeah, I agree he does a very bad job. Let me revise my statement to say that he is attempting to keep it a secret.
Well, I was thinking of a Marc Lépine or a George Sodini when I made the “JESUS CHRIST RUN!!” remark. But, yes, I realize I’m being overly generous to ddxxdd because he’s not typing “cunt” every fifth word and screaming about false rape convictions. Like I said, I wouldn’t want to be alone with him, and I’d warn other women against same.
Thread bankrupt but . . .
Harold Camping
Epitomizing the cutting edge of the Oops Factor after such a promising run and yet still managing to get a handful of style points for admitting the oops.
I suppose that the poor ol’ boy now considers his life’s work done and is content to slip into forgetfulness. His own, I reckon. Certainly not mine.
For some reason I am reminded of the last line in Bradbury’s “Kaleidoscope”:
False rape accusations, I should have typed. I should probably go to bed before long as well.
I’d say the teeth brushing thing is a pretty good data point in favor of the ladies.
Alethea,
As Ms. Daisy Cutter said, the Ancient Greek fables are a core part of the dominant global culture, so I’m not sure if they are a useful comparison.
(also a slight nitpick: the Four Great Classical Novels, despite their name, are of recent origin, from the Ming dynasty and beyond, and written in a literary style of Mandarin. There are stories/fables that could be compared to Aesop’s fables which were written much earlier, in Classical Chinese. I’ve come across children’s cartoons that have been made to make those more accessible to kids, just like they do for the Greek fables.)
Also, my “why not read them directly” was a rhetorical question.
It seems that where the westerner only sees good story-tellers, a non-westerner could see a westerner appropriating their culture. Even a good story-teller is informed by their cultural background, and runs the risk of getting things wrong when telling stories from a different culture. But other than that, it’s also the question of who gets to tell the story. This is also a form of power exercised by a member of the dominant culture.
About “not being able to jump in”: as I said the Four Great Novels are actually much closer to the contemporary language, and thus should be more accessible. Comparing them to the Ramayana is a false equivalence, I’m not talking about starting with the Shijing. Also there are adaptations of the same material, which may be more accessible, for instance
– Dragonball in its first volumes as a parody of Journey to the West. There is also a Doraemon volume about it, but I don’t think kids in the west grow up with Doraemon (might have changed now? Manga fans let me know)
– For Romance of the Three Kingdoms, there is a very amusing Taiwanese webcomic (that comes in three languages including English)
– Water Margin has been mangafied as well.
– I don’t know about Dream of the Red Chamber. Even though the most recent of the four, it is known for its complexity.
So there you have adaptations of these novels, done by East Asian writers.
But it’s not like the Four Novels are all that has been translated into English. I mentioned Jin Yong. He’s the most popular Wuxia author alive. Many elements from that genre should be similar to knight errant stories (often with a supernatural element), and as such accessible even to the reader who is not familiar with Chinese culture. (If you want to have a look, email me.)
I also recommend getting the book by Lung Ying-tai I mentioned the other day, once its translation into English and French is complete. It’s more like a collection of stories about the tragedy of the Civil War that ended in 1949, and one of the most influential books to come out in the Chinese-speaking world in the last few years.
Well, in a way I *did* say that. The “preceding study” was just normal childhood learning for me, where it came to my own and some related cultures.
But where it’s a more distant culture, that background is missing, so it’s definitely more work. If I can have some painless catch-up education by novel or TV or movie or game, that’s just fine by me. I really hope that it’s not mis-education, though. I like your google idea.
@ Esteleth way back at #18,
Just love the old gal as you would like to be loved should you be in her place.
She is nearing the end of life and probably understands your worries even if she doesn’t argue them. You are nearer your beginnings which for old folks often seems to echo their own former days. Every one of us understands conviction and devotion and the sheer sweaty effort it takes to live well. I’m sure that she admires in you qualities that she has long admired in herself and others. Old people can be quite confident about values and character . . . not to mention smug in their confidence of possessing not only sterling values but sterling character as well. My, isn’t this how we are?
Yes, go to church with her. It will cost you nothing but time and perhaps she will count your company as priceless as her time dwindles and fades. Of such small kindnesses and considerations is the sweetness of life comprised. Go on, put a smile on your face and go with her. The cost to you is negligible and her delight could be a tonic that sustains her.
Go gently with her and gently let her go when her time comes.
Love is enough. She’ll know and you can be at peace.
Apropos of nothing, but does anyone else here subscribe to the Fresh Air podcast? Over the last couple days, I seem to have been getting only the reviews (~6 minutes) instead of the whole show; did I miss a memo or announcement? I love the reviews, but I miss Terry Gross’s interviews.
Esteleth
re Grandma and church
What Crudely Wrott #114 said.
you won’t be Making A Statement
you won’t be Making A Stand
you will be: being with granny.
The xkcd comments are wearying. Damn but there are some people who just don’t want to get it. I don’t believe I’ll ever go back there.
Watching Bill Maher. He just doesn’t fucking get it.
#117 ‘Tis: I don’t blame you. That is the single worst thread I’ve seen there since… well, ever.
seriously Maher is a giant fucking tool
@ Rev. BDC
What’d he say now?
@StarStuff
I am going to take a bet and say that it has to do with the Sandra Fluke situation.
@ Esteleth
My grandmother lived to 98. She believed in belief. I told to her that I am an atheist and would not fail to take the piss out of religion. She was actually happy about this. I guess my being my own person meant more to her than if I went along with religion. Which brings me to this point. It is not about atheism here, it is about your grandmother. If sitting next to her in church means a lot to her, at least seriously consider going. Also be quite clear what your position is wrt religion, she will likely approve.
(Personally, I love old churches anyway.)
[PS: I see Crudely Wrott beat me to this.]
@ pelamun, the Linguist of Doom 57
Ha, thought as much. Here are the directions in my previous post.
Totes TET bankrupt; my apologies.
1. Mattir!!!! So good to see you here!
2. Just got an antique Aladdin kerosene mantle-burning lamp. Love. Throws shit tons of light and puts out enough heat to keep my furnace turned off.
I love the reading list. Thanks.
I’m not quite sure why the Greek analogy isn’t making sense to people. It takes education. No-one is born knowing it. I have it. I assume that other cultures, not being Disneyland, also take education to understand in any depth. No-one is born knowing it. I don’t have it.
(Also, Pelamun, the parallel constructions I drew were Wu Ch’eng-en:Homer; and Ramayana:Bible.)
Now this is the point where it gets difficult. There’s actually two questions here: one of hierarchy and power and appropriation, and the other of translation. The answers aren’t necessarily the same. It’s arguable that a translator could do best translating from their foreign to their native tongue, because they know what will need clarification and explanation. Things that go unspoken and assumed as obvious in one place are jarring or incomprehensible elsewhere. But that can’t easily be examined as a neutral question, when there’s also a history of exploitation between the two cultures.
I don’t think there’s a simple answer. I want to be educated and amused. I think it’s a moral good to be more educated about the world, and especially to be aware of and reasonably sympathetic to cultures different from my own. I don’t have any right to demand that oppressed peoples educate and amuse me. So umm, that means that educated people from my own culture explaining the trickier stuff for me ought to be good, right? Or is it…
Why am I still awake? It’s 12:45 am.
Possibly due to the giant mug of strong black tea I had at 10.
Meh.
I learned a few things today:
1) Playing Sims for 4 hours straight gives me a sore neck and wrist.
2) The equation of “every week, buy a 6-pack and drink 4 beers” equals “overfull fridge” in short order. Oh, and “drink more” is not the solution.
___
Talked to grandma. Seems she had noticed my hesitance re: church and wanted to ask about it. Decided to open the conversation by talking about her dear, dear friend who recently, with much hesitation, came out as an atheist, and how she (my grandma) thinks this is just peachy and super-brave of her friend.
So: my grandma, who as previously stated is awesome, is more awesome than I gave her credit for.
She did ask me to come to church with her again – but said that the choir is very nice these days and she knows I love music. Also, she doesn’t get many chances to show off her grandkids these days (and she’s so! proud! of! me!). In other news, my grandma (1) knows me well and (2) is not above a shameless guilt-trip. I am won over. I will go, listen to the music, and be bragged about to her friends.
She then promised to take me shopping for housewares. Asked if I “could use a Kitchenaid Stand Mixer with all the parts, it’s gathering dust in the attic.”
…my left hand is blue from the mid-palm to the fingertips. What.
Hey, just a quick question. I know we have dramaholic instead of drama queen, is there a substitute/better phrasing for attention whore? I would like to know for myself, plus I have a real life guy friend that I’m trying to convince to be less sexist. He’s not that bad but I do see some shining examples of bullshit from him. I’ve started calling him on things, have had conversations to explain somethings and have vented about the sexist shit in society when I need to blow off steam and he seems to get it.
He’s respectfully stopped saying “I got raped” etc when playing games. I can see him catch himself before he says it and if he slips he says sorry right away. It helps so much, makes me happy that I have a friend who understands.
Anyways, any other substitutes out there for sexist saying/shit? I know most of the time we just need to get rid of it but it would help to have something to say instead of it. Right now, my friend and I are at an impasse, he knows its sexist and I complain every time it comes up and he’s just asking for a substitute, which I am not creative enough to think of one.
That came across as way more stream-of-conciousness than I intended. I think the caffeine is wearing off. Sleep is in order, I think.
I understand what you’re saying but I’m not going to be much help. If we had cartoons etc about an Asian culture from toddling up to young adult it would be far easier to read books straight from that culture. I think of western writer’s books as a stepping stone to reading direct from the other culture. Otherwise its just going to be a long and frustrating journey trying to swim in unknown territory.
One good series I found that was written by an American who had Asian parents (I’m struggling to remember where from exactly) and majored in the study as well, in Laura Joh Rowland. It helped me understand more about Japan and its history. There was a bit of look up for me in the beginning since I knew like nothing about that time in Japan but she does well with bringing in to life for me. Much information about the time, how society worked, and it exposed me to the story of the 40 ronin. I had never heard of it before and looked it up afterwards.
Of course, now I’m sure I will find out its a romanticized version or that its wrong. That’s the problem with reading into another culture with no background on it, I have no idea if its bad or not.
Esteleth
Please give your Granny a hug from me.
She sounds awesome.
(I never went to church with my Gran but we did watch Dark Shadows together.)
@ Josh
HAH!!!
You are just here for teh hugs… ;)
{theophontes pours large packet of hugs into USB port.}
That makes sense, but I don’t really read.
Okay, I did read that (Poor, poor Jia Xu).
But, bluntly, just how racist is it to play Legends of the Wulin or Legends of the Five Rings? Is doing Wuxia in roleplay just completely verboten for me as a westerner? I can’t tactfully leave the current game I’m in, but I can take it under advisement for the future.
I need some Laura Nyro.
Stoney End
When I Was A Freeport And You Were The Main Drag
It’s Gonna Take A Miracle
Sweet Blindness
Captain Saint Lucifer
This may sound strange…but does anyone have a link to a good debunking of Howard Johnson’s magnetic motor? I tried googling but I’m finding mostly either references to the patent or youtube videos claiming it’s actually true.
I just told my father over the phone that I’m an atheist, and he said that while he wouldn’t call himself that, he agrees with me regarding the influence of religions being negative…but then he goes on to be totally new-agey paranoid. While I wouldn’t trust businesses in general, his suggestion is a bit over the top (“we could have free energy if the companies hadn’t suppressed important stuff!”). To be fair, he isn’t actually claiming that it’s valid, he just hasn’t evaluated it himself and thinks it’s “interesting” and wants to know more.
Well, from what I’ve found it doesn’t violate the laws of known physics, and isn’t impressive, but the patent is such a huge mess that I’d prefer to have something ready-made rather than having to wade through the entire thing myself.
Oh and he has a PhD in engineering so it doesn’t matter if the debunking is extremely technical. He works for oil companies quite a bit so perhaps his suspicions are something we should take note of….but not to the extent of believing in free energy.
Emmylou Harris
Wrecking Ball
Goodbye
Sweet Old World
Waltz Across Texas Tonight
Richard & Linda Thompson
I Want To See The Bright Lights Tonight
A Heart Needs A Home
Dimming Of The Day
Sisters
Walking On A Wire
sosw:
Other than it’s a purported perpetual motion machine, doesn’t the fact that he patented it in 1979 and yet no working examples exist say it all? :)
—
Allow me to introduce you to the second law of thermodynamics.
Lucinda Williams
I Asked For Water (He Gave Me Gasoline)
Right In Time
Am I Too Blue
Greenville
The Night’s Too Long
Mood shift.
Steely Dan
Black Friday
Razor Boy
Charlie Freak
Any World (That I Am Welcome To)
Fire In The Hole
Ahhh, Dimming of the Day, one of the most beautiful songs ever written.
Here’s another version with better accompaniment, but Alison Krausse doesn’t quite capture the heartache that Linda Thompson did:
Alison Krausse, Jerry Douglas, and the Transatlatic Sessions
We Do Not Fuck Around-Viva Voce
PS, You Rock My World-Eels
Cherry Chapstick-Yo La Tengo
As We Go Up, We Go Down-Guided By Voices
Same Old Drag-The Apples In Stereo
Better accompaniment?
Seriously?
You are aware of Richard Thompson?
Addendum to previous post @Pelamun
I stand corrected on the wuxia. It appears that there is egg on my face in presuming that it is a bunch of white people making at least one of the games concerning me. Pleasantly surprised and chagrined. I also think I’m derailing too much, I’m going to go track down some of the references you mentioned your friend cited.
Sexed Up
Come Undone
The Dead rehearse Whiskey in the Jar
I should’ve clarified…”as demonstrated”; i.e., it didn’t demonstrate anything remarkable, so it didn’t “work” in the sense that was claimed.
Obviously I know that magnetism — while it does actually decay over time — doesn’t produce any kind of force any more than, say, gravity, i was just hoping to see an existing article on the matter so I don’t need to go through every detail myself.
sosw, I guess I was kinda unreasonably snarky, there. Sorry.
All I can add is that it’s not up to you to debunk anything, it’s up to the claimant to establish their claim. Burden of proof and all that.
Hey Rutee, while you’re here, what was that about my “anagram [sic] names” in the billboard thread?
(I think you’ve confused me with someone else, I just use my name)
In no particular order:
====
This is for Josh and his lamps.
====
Loathe the concept of moving cheese, since the only option presented is adapting to the change. It is presented as if no one has any influence on the moving itself, which of course management loves the book — we’re changing, get with it or get out, but don’t you dare do anything about it!
====
Apropos of nothing, I loathe Jeff Dunham. Gets away with making astonishingly racist and sexist jokes while pretending it’s the dummy. As if we didn’t notice it’s his hand up the dummy’s ass!
====
Ing, congratulations on winning the case. Sometimes, there is justice.
====
rorschach, I was under the impression that you deactivated it yourself. Wasn’t that the case? (If you don’t mind me for asking, I can imagine you don’t want to talk about it).
====
How about not buying a 6-pack every 3rd week?
====
Unless you’ve been eating blue candy, that doesn’t sound right. Or did you just buy a new pair of blue jeans?
====
I’m taken, but shouldn’t we set up some sort of OKPharyngulaCupid?
====
*Waves to Mattir and Menyambal* I hope your troubles are over or at least will soon fade.
Hello, everybody!
I’m so thread bankrupt that it’s not even funny*.
So, how’s everyone doin’?
*Still playing Mass Effect. You know how it is.
De-lurking to offer a caution to Josh – I lived with Aladdin kerosene lamps as primary light source for years and learned the hard way that you have to watch them like a hawk. A tiny little maladjustment on the wick may cause the mantle to begin to burn unevenly and if you don’t correct it, almost before you know it the mantle’s on fire and flames are shooting up the top of the chimney. Until you’re really familiar with it, don’t ever leave it lit while you’re not in the room, and even when you’re there, get into the habit of glancing over at it every few minutes. The first sign of trouble will be a black spot somewhere on the mantle. Also, if you didn’t get one with the lamp, you should have the special wick trimmer that they need: a little round plastic thingie that fits over the top of the wick. A lot more light than standard kerosene lamps, but touchy.
Pretty good. Not next week but the week after I’m taking vacation because the wife will be getting a breast. And even though the boat is going into the water on St. Patrick’s day, I’ll be staying home to take care of the wife.
Oh, ‘Tis. I didn’t realize that she had one removed.
Good luck to ‘Tis Herself– I hope the recovery goes smoothly and she doesn’t have too much pain.
Isn’t that the one that proves evilution can’t happen?
Threadrupt
Oh what a day.
My daughter has a strep infection, German doctors are weird and my mother kicked me out of the house.
Which she didn’t intend to result in me leaving, but in the usual me backing down because I love her of course and because of the children (she had the audacity to follow me to the car where I was sitting next to my sick daughter, try to engage me in a “talk about what is wrong with me” and then tell me to think of the children)and everybody else.
Unfortunately I’ve taken the red pill this weekend, so instead of accepting just how awefully wrong I am (yes, I am crazy, she told me), I saw the first 33 years of my life fast forwarding to the almost broken person that I am now.
Oh, and my therapist is, of course, an incompetent idiot because he failed to tell me that I am wrong, hypersensitive, broken and in need of being fixed by her.
If gaslighting hadn’t been invented already, it would be named after her.
I don’t know if there is any hope for her to come around, to accept what she did and is doing and change. The way she smelled of alcohol I doubt it, but for the first time in years I feel like there’s hope for me.
Thanks, Audley.
She had a breast removed, had chemotherapy, and now the reconstructive surgeon* will build her a new boob. Giving her a new nipple is the bit I find interesting.
*Apparently “plastic surgeon” is a tainted term.
There probably isn’t much you can do for your mother so you should work on getting yourself right.
‘Tis,
You know, I’ve never thought about that– what do they make the nipple out of? Skin?
‘Tis, best wishes for Herself. I hoe she gets the breast she wants.
…and here’s a ‘p’ for you. It fell out.
Ok, almost caught up
T’is himself
All the best for your wife. Make sure she doesn’t get a French breast ;)
pelamun
I’d love to continue this discussion at another time. As you can guess, I’m really, really too stressed out at the moment for that.
Yeah, problem is that they weren’t actually supporting me. They were supporting a position. I only mistook the one for the other.
Seconded.
If she’s hurting you, you have every right to walk away and focus on taking care of yourself.
[ ] Make Awesome Dinner
[ ] Post in Play by Post RPG
[ ] Ascend Tengu Gladiator
[ ] Runes. More of them.
[ ] Play FFXIII
[ ] Do Laundry
[ ] Clean Bathroom
[ ] Groceries
….
[ ] Wisdom Teeth Removal
[ ] Get press ganged onto somalian pirate ship.
[ ] Prove i = 42
[ ] Host the John Show starring John
[ ] Fix MRM
It’s on my list, right about where it needs to be.
Holy shit, that is terrible gilliel. I hope everything’s going okay. =/
Not sure if this has been posted but guess what the real motivation of Invisible Children is? To evangelize.
Tis,
all the best for your wife. Boob reconstruction is awesome in terms of technical possibilities (getting operated on, however, always sucks to some extent). Chances are she’ll have a nice, good-as-new boob that will make everyone happy. I’ve seen quite a few when I got training in gynecologic oncology.
Audley,
they will often build one from skin and have it tattooed afterwards to match the color. Easy and effective.
Crudely Wrott, #114:
In other words, lie to and humor the “old gal” (vomit), because that’s what Esteleth would want done to her? Patronizing of old women much, dude? Guess what, most old people aren’t going to keel over dead if one disagrees with them on important matters.
Esteleth’s comment at #126 has validated my hunch: that a grandmother described as formidable, loving, and with a good sense of humor would be fine with her granddaughter demurring to go to church. In fact, she accepts her granddaughter just the way she is.
Had Esteleth not updated us, I was going to say that she will be with her grandmother the entire weekend. A few hours apart is not a big deal. “But you’ll wish you spent more time with her when she’s gone!” Yes, speaking with her, or doing things with her. Not merely sitting next to her in silence while some charlatan for Christ blathers on.
Alethea, the Greek analogy does not take education. Allusions to ancient Greece imbue our culture. Not as much as they imbued 19th-century Western culture, perhaps, but just by being raised in any Western country, you grow up with some of it. Our language is full of Greek-derived words for various abstract concepts, especially those we (claim to) admire, like “democracy.” Children’s cartoons, or at least older ones like Astérix or those from Warner Bros., draw on ancient Greece for some plots. You don’t notice it the way fish don’t notice water.
Just_A_Lurker, there’s always “drama llama.”
‘Tis: Best of luck with ‘Tis Herself’s recovery, and please remember to take care of yourself as well as you tend to her.
Giliell: Hang in there. Stay strong. Especially don’t let her get to you via guilt over your kids/her grandkids. Someone with children and their own gaslighting parent(s) could give you better advice than I can on how to walk the fine line between letting them absorb her thinking and cutting her out of your life entirely. I hope this is possible… it’s not always.
Janine:
Seriously. 0_o Accompaniment doesn’t get much better than that.
And back atcha.
Emmylou Harris: Deeper Well
Richard Thompson: Valerie (wish the audio quality were better but it’s still amazing)
Lucinda Williams: Can’t Let Go
Bonus: Gillian Welch: Winter’s Come and Gone
keenacat:
That’s very cool.
‘Tis, once again, all the best for ‘Tis Herself. (I would ask you to give her a hug after her surgery, but ow.)
I do think that this version of Valerie is taken from RT: The Life And Music Of Richard Thompson.
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart #157
Yes, it’s skin. Since my wife has a large nipple and areola on her present breast, the surgeon will take part of that tissue to make a new nipple and areola. If her present nipple and areola were small, he’d take skin from some other part of her body, generally the inner thigh, to make a new nipple. Also nipple and areolar tattooing is a commonly used to match the colors.
I see keenacat beat me in explaining about nipple reconstruction. Also I notice upon rereading my post #170 that ze enlish she are no to good today.
‘Tis,
That is pretty fascinating. I’m sure it will be painful/uncomfortable for your wife, but how awesome is it that they can give her a new breast and nipple?
Sorry, sometimes I just get all awed over medical shit.
A nineteen year old Richard Thompson hiding behind both his hair and his band in Time Will Show The Wiser. He has gotten more animated over the decades.
From the 1993 compilation, Watching The Dark: The History Of Richard Thompson, the recording of Shoot Out The Lights is from 1983.
Also from the RT box set, this version of Calvary Cross is from 1986. While every version of the Richard Thompson is stellar, this seems to be the favorite version. It contained Clive Gregson and Christine Collister, a couple that also made great, very dark music.
I usually avoid performances captured on phones but this is actually not bad. When The Spell Is Broken from 2009, solo. Damn!
From the 2010 album, Dream Attic, If Love Whispers You Name. It is a live recording. If only this technology has been around during all of his career.
Better accompaniment?
*shakes head*
This does not even begin to capture everything. Different fans can come up with a different list of his best and not overlap and not be wrong.
Thanx
I’m feeling very energetic at the moment.
I don’t know if it will be. Maybe there’ll be some kind of armistice. It’s not only those problems that actually were there all the time, there’s the additional problem of alcohol and that she’s definetly already having brain damage.
The one thing I know is that I won’t back down.
There will be no “compromise” (i.e. me admitting that I was wrong and she admitting that maybe she should have been more generous given that she knows that I am always wrong but will finally come around).
I’ve been wrong for my whole fucking life. Whenever there was a conflict with my parents it was because I was either stubborn, or hotheaded, or an over-sensitive delicate snowflake, or because I can’t take criticism (tell me, how do you take criticism that starts with “Do you find it responsible to do X”?).
I know that as a youth I sometimes had the power to fight back (oh, but I paid the price. If you’re given the silent treatment from your mother, after a while you’ll confess and beg forgiveness for everything).
Now, having kids, being a part-time single mum, I needed that power for something else and I lost myself.
And this stops NOW.
‘Tis, hope all goes with the reconstruction. And I hope the results pleases both you and her.
Best of luck to your wife, ‘Tis. I am sure she has skilled people working for her.
Thanks for those links, Janine. I have some of his music, but far from all of it.
Giliell:
Deep respect.
Giliell, I got the impression of what happened but not what happened. But situations like that, it is usually a culmination of decades of actions and of things said and unsaid. And I have no idea what to say.
Except this. Please stop beating yourself up.
I know, not particularly useful nor easy. I still find myself obsessing about events decades past that other people have forgotten about.
Audley,
if you are interested, a visit to our most trusted web search gave this gem to me:
http://www.breastreconstruction.org/PersonalStories.html
Besides personal stories you get some pictures of the awesomeness that is breast reconstruction.
To all Pharyngulites looking for a little encouragement: Johnny Cash. (Music only)
keenacat,
Thanks! I took a quick look through the pictures and holy shit, that is cool.
What was scary was how young some of the women were– the youngest I saw was 32. :-/
Ms. Daisy Cutter, there is more, so much more.
Since leaving Capital Records and traditional music labels, RT has taken control of his releases and offers a lot of live recordings from all over his career. And even that does not cover all that there is.
Funny thing, I think that RT has a kind of tunnel vision about his own career. Try reading his responses to questions online. (Turn out that he is a huge fan of the LA Kings and very knowledgeable of pro hockey. Who would have guessed?) But it is needed, even in his fifth decade of preforming, he remains very active. And while he likes having continuity with the people he works with, he keeps shaking up how he works.
Yeah, RT is about the closest thing I have to a musical deity.
One of the best tributes to RT, from his ex wife, Linda; Dear Old Man Of Mine.
janine
That’s exactly what it is: 33 years of small things.
33 years of not noticing a constant pattern.
At the beginning of this journey I asked myself how I ended up in that mess. I had a happy childhood*. I was never reaped in my life, not abused or neglected.
I can recall a million instances of “not a big deal”. And we all know that everybody has their mistakes and such.
Only that my complete upbringing never prepared me for being a person, it only prepared me for being my mother’s dutifull daughter.
My father recently told my sister who’s been wondering about similar things that, since my grandma cared a lot for her (she’s 6 years my senior), my mother had me so that “she could have a child for herself, too”.
*I’ve been wondering about parallels with Libby Anne and her Quiverfull upbringing: She also says that she had a wonderfull childhood with loving parents, but she wasn’t allowed to be herself either. It was just much harder for me to spot since my parents are liberals.
Yes, there is a subset of patients that is quite young, between 20 and 40, usually those with a genetic predisposition. Some of those even opt to get bilateral mastectomies as a preventative measure.
http://www.breastreconstruction.org/Annie.html
My boyfriends mom had her diagnosis at 43. I think she has had some kind of muscle flap after the lumpectomy (the skin and nipple stayed intact), but if you don’t know she had cancer you barely notice the scars. They are TINY.
I’ve also seen reconstructions after more extensive surgeries up close and let me tell you, this is an art in itself. I was even able to assist during a combined mastectomy/muscle flap operation with contralateral breast reduction (they do this for symmetry reasons). They went to great lenghts to ensure optimal outcome, including propping the patient up in the middle of the whole ordeal to have a look at the effects of gravity and at the symmetry.
(Also, if you read Annies story to the end, there are step-by-step-photos of the process, including nipple reconstruction. So amazing!)
Has everyone seen the page on Answers in Genesis’s website where they lay out the creationist arguments that even they think are too stupid to use? If not, linky: http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/arguments-we-dont-use
I’m late to this, but…
I’d never really thought about nipple reconstruction, either: I had always imagined mastectomy as a sort of evacuation of the breast tissue under the skin, rather than an amputation (i.e., leaving the skin, and presumably the nipple, intact). I suppose that’s sometimes true (the first of the case stories keenacat linked to seems to be such a case), but I guess sometimes that can’t give the oncologist the “margin” around the tumor that’s needed, eh?
Both of my parents had breast surgery: My mother had reduction, to deal with back problems, and my father actually had breast cancer (his onco told him about 1 in 1000 cases occurs in a man; dunno if the stats have changed any since then). But since there was no concern for surgical margin in my mother’s case, they were able to preserve her nipples… and we all know how much anyone cares about men’s nipples, right?
Anyway, all the best to ‘Tis Herself; here’s hoping for a swift and happy recovery. The idea of a “happy” surgical recovery may seem odd, but I mean it: The tearing down parts of cancer treatment are all done, right? This is part of the rebuilding part, and it’s a thing of joy.
Bill:
It depends on the relation of tumor volume to breast volume and on wether the tumor has already infiltrated skin or muscle. If the tumor is small and hasn’t infiltrated anything, there will be a lumpectomy: dislodging the tumor with some safety distance and a check by the pathologist to ensure all margins are tumor-free. Afterwards, there will be radiation therapy to reduce the risk of in-breast relapse.
If the tumor has infiltrated into skin or muscle you need to remove that part. With larger tumors or very disseminated ones you need to remove all of the gland and fatty tissue in the breast, maybe including skin if the safety distance would be too short otherwise.
Nipple conservation depends partly on the type of tumor, as the nipple/areola contain ducts of the mammary gland and a ductal carcinoma might grow there as well. This is why it is usually removed in patients undergoing preventative mastectomy, as well.
In the early days of breast cancer surgery, surgeons would not only remove the mammary gland including skin and nipple, but also the larger and smaller chest muscles, leading to bad functional outcomes. We now know this is not usually necessary.
I forget who it was (John Morales?) who asked a couple days about whether campaign contributions counted as pay for politicians. As it happens, my Facebook feed delivered up this morning a perfect example of what happens when politicians treat campaign funds as personal income.
***
Giliell:
Hugs (if you want ’em) for what you’re working through. I had a (mostly) happy (and privileged and fortunate) childhood myself, but the part of it that was toxic — my relationship with my father — was always clear, even at the time; it was never a buried secret that my adult self had to learn about. I admire your courage in facing this stuff.
keenacat:
I’m in the middle of reading[1][2] The Emperor of All Maladies, and the stories of the “arms race” to remove more and more tissue in the early days of radical mastectomy are truly terrifying; I’m so glad for the distance we’ve come since then. My father had (ca. 1979) a “modified radical” mastectomy, and after it the right side of his chest looked like Meteor Crater… but then, he was a middle-aged, married, overweight man, and nobody (including him) was much concerned about cosmetic issues. He had no end of fun joking about his missing boob.
***
[1] With the usual disclaimer that “reading” really means listening to the audiobook.
[2] I so wish <sup></sup> worked here; I miss proper footnotes!
Bill Dauphin:
Such a good book! If anyone has any recommendations for similar reviews of other diseases (malaria, smallpox, and polio would be particularly interesting), I’d love to hear about them.
More good wishes for ‘Tis Herself (that’s a useful coinage, Bill), and gestures of respect and encouragement to Giliell. Too busy for much more.
A POLL!!!
Let’s Pharyngulate this one in honor of PZ’s Birthday!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/07/science-religion-incompatible_n_1327263.html
Nutmeg:
I’ve also read The Demon Under the Microscope by Thomas Hager (the audiobook of which is read by the same narrator as Emperor of All Maladies, in fact), which is about the discovery and development of antibiotics; I think you’d like that.
Another is Steven Johnson’s The Ghost Map, about the 1854 cholera outbreak in London, and how mapping helped solve the riddle of cholera’s transmission. It also includes part of the story of the development of anesthesia, as part of the personal history of one of the principals in Johnson’s tale. Like many of Johnson’s books, it’s uneven… but on balance it’s good, and interesting to fans of medical history.
My wife is a big fan of what she calls “plague books,” and I know she’s got several she’s enjoyed, including one about yellow fever that was (IIRC) either a Pulitzer or National Book Award winner. A few years ago there were several books about the 1919 flu pandemic, and I know she’s read at least one of those. I’ll try to round up some of her titles and get back to you.
I bought her the audiobook of Daniel Defoe’s The Journal of the Plague Year as a gift, but neither of us has gotten around to listening to it yet.
@ KG
‘Tis Herself
/pedant
I also wish to wish ‘Tis Herself all the best with her recovery.
KG:
I agree, but I can’t take credit: Someone else coined it somewhere upthread, and I just recognized a good thing when I read it.
theophontes:
Jinx!! ;^)
Why I don’t idolize Anonymous. They have some serious moral blind spots when it comes to women (and not just women, either).
@ Bill
Just call me psychic! Woo
hoo!!!theophontes,
Not my original, either– I’m pretty sure I’ve seen ‘Tis Herself used by other Hordelings in the past. ;)
@ Dr Audley
It is rather Hordie/Pharyngulie I must confess. The Hivemind ™ is real.
@ lorence #193
I hate to tell you that the idiots are winning.
On the subject of Pharyngulating: If you want to support the breakaway Pharyngulite Peoples’ Republic of Southern TET, follow the link here and leave a poem. snide remark about the bPPRSTET leadership or just type “.” and hit [submit comment].
Yay! Y-Gallery is back up!
With Spirou & Fantasio on the frontpage (well, technically Zorglub and Champignac, but there’s a club). Not that I ship it, but I’m glad it exists.
Now if only I could find Rule 34 Alix and Enak, then my life would be complete.
PS: For those of you who prefer the scenic route, try clicking here.
A luta continua, vitória é certa!
Sili:
http://rule34.paheal.net/
You’re welcome.
REASON RALLY
If you are coming to the REASON RALLY and have not filled out the poll for the Pharyngula Horde meet-up, please do so!
ZUGSWANG and STARSTUFF, if you see this, please email me so we can discuss logistical details.
That PUA thread is like crack.
Wow.
Thanks for the book recommendations, Bill! I’ll look into those.
onion girl #205:
I just sent an email your way. Thanks for reminding me about the meet-up; I’d almost forgotten about it.
#141: VIVA! Saw them at a tiny club with a too-small audience last fall in STL. Got a concert poster for them that I bought in Boise signed. Shook Anita’s hand, haven’t washed it since.
Um…carry on, everyone.
Thanks, Ms. Cutter,
But technically that’s not Rule 34. You’ll notice it’s signed by Jaques Martin (pbuh), himself.
Still, I hadn’t seen it before, so thanks.
Just recently read about a tattoo artist who specializes in applying nipples to women who’ve had breast reconstruction. I’d never thought about doing it that way, but a quick search brought up several articles from the last few years.
Nutmeg:
They’re not quite as close to the disease-book theme, but if you like medical stuff and haven’t already read them, you should check out two books by Mary Roach: Bonk, about research into human sexuality, and Stiff, about work with human cadavers. I’ve never met anyone who’s read either of these who didn’t love them.
Daze (@206):
Please tell me that quotation is a deliberate parody!
@Ms. Daisy
Whatever the PUAs are smoking, I don’t think I want any of it. 0.o
Totally thread bankrupt, busy, busy. It’s our 33rd Anniversary tomorrow, so I’ll be gone a while longer, I think we’ll laze about in bed for a few days.
‘Tis, all the best to you and ‘Tis Herself. A friend of mine had a breast removed and it was reconstructed in the same surgical session. All went well, here’s hoping it goes great for your wife too.
Bill, there are some other guys in there (all PUAs) calling that commenter a troll.
I really hope they’re right.
Yay! Happy anniversary! *THE BIGGEST INTERNET HUGS* I was missing you.
—
Thanks for the sympathy, y’all. And *especial hugs* to Menyambal for the kitten. I’m glad you’re back!
To sgbm, I’m not sure whether or not procrastinating here should warrant a chasing-off. On the one hand, I’m so full of work that I might explode. On the other hand, writing papers is really hard, and maybe this helps? I don’t know.
*hugs hugs hugs hugs* to David M.
Thanks to pelamun and Giliell for the offers of help! I found out that I was wrong about the due date for that paper, which is lovely because I decided to give up on it and went to bed all in tears. Now it’s done though.
Ms. Daisy Cutter, I don’t really have that option because of the kind of program I’m in. On the bright side, three of my four instructors know each other and have discussed my situation among them, so they probably will be pretty understanding with me if something falls apart. One of them already knows I’m prone to have health problems when I get stressed, because I had to miss her class to go to the ER last quarter when I was having heart palpitations. But thanks for the suggestion, I really wish I could do it :(
Sorry if I missed anybody, here are *hugs* to you :)
—
Hey, Esteleth, your grandma’s awesome! Cool!
Giliell, I don’t know what to say except *hugs*. You shouldn’t have to deal with that shit from your mother on top of everything else, but at least it’s good that you’re recognizing how hurtful and unfair this is.
—
My mommy just sent me a picture of my brother with the snow-Yoda he made. He is green (J apparently misted him a spray bottle thingy full of water with green food coloring) wearing a brown Jedi robe and holding a lightsaber. Mom says there were kids across the street who got all excited to see it, and J was all proud of himself :)
Re: marydoodles, this one made me LOL.
*embedding headdesk* Sorry.
http://www.insidebayarea.com/news/ci_20143269/berkeley-police-chiefs-decision-send-sergeant-reporters-home
ffrancis — thanks for de-cloaking to give that great advice! I’m learning just what you’re talking about. Have done a lot of reading about them and I’m getting used to the heating-up pattern of this burner and when it wants adjustment. My center draft tube is just a hair out of round, which is irritating and making the wick burn ever so slightly unevenly—with the obvious effect on the mantle’s glow. Will be trying teensy, tiny shavings-off of one side of the wick.
Theo — Huggles? For me? Well aren’t you just the cutest ‘lil Theophontes. . .who’s a little theo?
[/chin chucks]
Ms. Daisy and select other horde members—Sorry for neglecting my email this week! xxoo
Caine: Happy anniversary!
Josh: No worries, we’ll catch up eventually. :)
Unrelatedly: Guess what’ll be going on in the Tampa Bay area, Aug. 27-30? Start looking at this page (NSFW text) about one to two weeks before that, for the lulz. You know, like in St. Paul in 2008.
Here’s one that Wonkette didn’t find.
-Some random stuff first-
I. I heard Netflix is producing a US version of House of Cards. Anyone watched the original BBC series? Was it good?
II. I found a youtube channel with Chinese Idioms for kids (skip to the animated videos). It took me some time to find one that has English subtitles, so excuse the bad video quality. But the 25 or so idioms that channel has are genuine Chinese idioms (TM), 100% certified faux Chinese idiom free!
III. German Federal Court (the highest court in civil and criminal matters, though there is the German Constitutional Court as court of last resort) rules that hotels may discriminate based on political grounds. The case in question was about Neo Nazi politicians being denied hotel rooms on private vacations. While this may be ok (a hotel also wouldn’t be forced to rent its facilities to a political party for a convention etc), and discrimination based on race, ethnicity, gender, sexual identity, religion, disability, remains forbidden, the court also ruled that hotels didn’t need to provide a reason for the denial.
So even though I don’t have the slightest sympathies for Nazis, I do hope this ruling is overturned by the Constitutional Court.
(Link to German legal blog blocked? German speakers, you will be confused about Weltanschauung if you only read the OP. The problem of Weltanschauung is discussed in the comments)
IV. discussed the role of male homosexuality throughout Chinese history with a friend today. These stories mostly involve men who were favourites of a ruler, be it duke, king or emperor, depending on the time.
There are two very famous stories, “the sharing of the plum (分桃)”, “cutting of the sleeve （斷袖）”, which have become eponymous with male homosexuality in Chinese. There are also the stories of “Going fishing together (共船而釣)” and the “Rabbit god 兔兒神”, the deity governing love and sex between men. I will blog about these stories hopefully soon, but then I also came across the story of “the man who almost became a male empress”. This relates to an emperor from the 6th century, who was in love with a man whom he granted the name Han Zigao (韓子高). A play was written about this in the Qing dynasty, 1000 years later, and the play is indeed called “The male queen/empress 男皇后/男王后”. However, I haven’t been able to determine what exactly was meant by “almost made him empress”. In China an emperor usually had 100s of wives, ranked into 10 or so categories, 1 empress, a couple of queen consorts, etc. What I would like to know is if that emperor in question was actually considering not to take an empress (offspring would be guaranteed from lesser ranked concubines) and instead give Han Zigao that position…
PZ, why is the German Law Blog blocked?
http://tinyurl.com/6r5w5w7
Cassandra Caligaria, pounces and squeezes right back! I miss you, too. ♥
Ms. Daisy Cutter, thank you!
Back to workity, work, work. Christ, there is so much I don’t know. I has much learning to do, as always.
Re: The PUA troll
No really, Susan Walsh’s place talks like that.
@Sili, regarding RUle 34: Last I checked, there was no “Has to be a fan” clause for Rule 34, it’s just that creators very rarely are the ones making the porn? XD
Woo hoo!!! Conga Rats & ululations!!!
Well, technically it wasn’t pr0n. It’s just tasteful nudes.
I’m just jealous that I don’t read French and they stopped bringing out Alix in Danish back in the Golden Age of the 80es.
–o–
I couldn’t possibly comment.
DAAAYYYUMMMM. Crommunist just linked to that. Everybody go read it. It’s like an orgasm, a brisk breeze off the ocean on a stifling day, and a stadium rock anthem that you get out your lighter for, all rolled into one.
I’ve had reason to dislike Brian Dunning of Skeptoid in the past, and now his 300th episode is pissing me off, too.
It’s a cute enough musical fairytale, but why the fuck does he have to make the enemy a gypsy queen?
So a family friend recommended this great Japanese series we should absolutely watch. Web searches indicated it looks like a historical drama.
Dutifully went to Chinese website, looked for it, and then it was a modern time medical drama, emergency surgery, handsome doctor with doctor girlfriend in a coma etc..
WTF?
Turns out it involves time travel. LOL.
also a brain tumour that looks like a fetus. Creeepy.
@Ms. Daisy Cutter
Yeah, it was a pretty sweet read.
“Breitbart is another sign of American decline. He’s what happens when even the ratfuckers have lost all subtlety to their art.”
Gold.
Well, back from the antique arms show.
http://www.medievalrepro.com/Ancient.html scored the last blade pictured on this page for 50 bucks.
Paid 15 bucks for a dagger missing its handle (FUN PROJECT!) and got myself a bigass drinking horn for 25 (I might have to cut it down, I might not be “Viking” Enough for its capacity).
My dad bought a gun owned in 1906 by a Chilcotin Indian that I get almost emotional looking at. My family hunts for food, but we have the luxury of being able to feed ourselves regardless. I guarantee the original owner of this gun relied on it for survival more than once. If you look closely at the buttstock, you can see where the original owner decorated it with tacks, as the Chilcotin people liked to do.
But my favorite part was the little kid, around 7-8 ish, carrying a huge cutlass/saber that was longer than he was tall. Apparently it was his, bought for him, and he let me look at it a little bit. He wasn’t smiling, but I could tell exactly by the look on his little face how he felt. He was by far the happiest person in that entire building. I told him “When I was your age, I would have cut off my left hand to own a sword that cool.” To which his adult minder replied “Wait till he gets it home, he probably will!”
I foresee a future as the protagonist of a poorly written fantasy drama or a best selling manga series.
Also a child should not be given a cutlass to play with. Not until they’ve had several fencing lessons.
Ooook I’m back from the bars and have ingested a whooping 1.5 litres of beer and a weird shot of something-or-other, probably involving coconut. And something pink.
(It’s 11:45 pm where I am, so don’t worry.)
This means I’m drunk and needy.
Sadly, the boyfriend went for more partying and let me stagger home all by myself, so I’ll take it out on you people. Sorry.
I’ve been reading Pharyngula for what, 5 years or something? All the time I’ve been lurking and adding my 2 cents about once per year.
Today marks a breakthrough. I found out I didn’t need livejournal or some other crap anymore, but could log in using facebook (I know facebook is just more crap, but I use it all the time anyway).
Angels would have sung if I was less of an atheist.
You people shaped a biiig part of me, mainly my atheism and my feminism.
I love you, you sweet baby-eating horde of foul-mouthed sceptics. Don’t ever change.
Every time I run into some asshat, MRA, fundie or other, I know there is one place on the internets where I can go to restore my faith in humanity.
Thank you.
Keenacat:
You’re most welcome, and I don’t think I’m taking too much liberty if I say on behalf of the hoarde that the pleasure is ours.
You can always go, downtown!
pelamun
I’ve seen the first episode of Jin.
I can hardly wait to see the rest!
Quick pre-Game drop-in.
*hugs* for Giliell. I’d say, save yourself, first (because you have value in and of yourself); then worry about whether you can save your mother.
‘Course, I speak as an ungrateful wretch of a daughter who avoids her own monther like the plague, so I may, just possibly, be biased.
–
IANAP, but it looks to me like that’s where the trouble started, right there. “For herself”.
–
Happy Anniversary, Caine!
*champagne*
–
The Sailor & Cicely, thank you both! ♥
Heh.
(more marydoodle, feat. Nice Peter, Gwatsky & Dante.)
Why yes, I had nothing to do this afternoon. Why do you ask?
Giliell: Clenched tentacle salute.
And best wishes to ‘Tis Herself – may surgery be simple, pain minimal, and recovery swift.
Gileill – Rock the fuck on, girl.
Caine– Congratulations to you and the Mister! You two are such a perfect couple; it’s sweet to see your marriage last and last.
Cicely – So, I simmered the smoked pork neck bones for two hours until the meat fell apart into gorgeous little shreds. Then I scraped the marrow from the bones to enrich the stock, adding sauteed celery, carrot, onion and thyme with generous salt and pepper. It smells so good.
Especially since I added the SPLIT PEAS.
On Kittehs— They loves them some hot-burning kerosene lamp. Don’t worry, I’m being very careful where it’s placed and I don’t mean to say they’re trying to jump up on it. They’re treating it as cats do a fireplace; a warm lovely thing much to be slept close to. So it’s on the coffee table in front of me and kittehs are lined up on the back of the sofa right across from it luxuriating in the warmth and basically acting like they’re passed out fucken drunk. It’s very cute.
You know, it seems like I could do all of these notes in one post, but that would require a better attention span on my part…
Caine, Happy Anniversary to you and spousal unit, dear girl.
As for the other posts…oooh, shiny object…
happy anniversary, Caine
Josh:
Aaaw, thank you. ♥ I put it down to us both being equally weird. I just got an email from him, it seems that Midco cable is blocking the nudephotorevolutionary calendar download. Norf Dakota. *sigh*
Jeffrey:
Thank you, Dearest. Outside of a trip to town on Monday, I’m hoping we’ll simply have the chance to be spectacularly lazy for a couple of days. ♥
TLC:
Thank you! ♥
Caine,
Just ask; someone with access can easily email it to you.
John, thank you, but we’ll download it tomorrow night using our wireless, which is not Norf Dakota based. :D
Care to share the other reasons, just curious.
I personally found it in general annoying and the villains name just a face palm. I wonder if the rat minions were Teh Jews in the original draft?
Human monogamy is a beautiful thing (IMO) when the participants do it out of the strength of their bond rather than societal expectations.
Watching the Sarah Palin HBO movie.
Ms Daisy Cutter, you are clearly confusing schooling with education.
I guarantee you 100% that I was not born knowing what Athena’s aegis is, or who the (original) Atreides were, and I will also bet you that a lot of western-raised people here still don’t know.
In other words – you’re rather bizarrely accusing me of being a fish unaware of the water I swim in, while all my posts about it have been “Look! Water! Right here! There’s water! See the water!”
Alethea,
that doesn’t change the fact that Ancient Greek mythology is part of the Greek-Roman-Judeo-Christian core of the global dominant culture.
Also it misses the point regarding the cultural dominance issue.
A western person rewriting Greek mythology is playing with elements from their own culture, a western person rewriting Chinese mythology is appropriating another culture and thereby exercising cultural power.
More comprehensive reply later.
Caine, conga rats, enjoy your stay with the spouse for your anniversary. The Pullet Patrol is lining up to guard your place. But I really think they want lessons from Esme on how to steal my keys to the grog soaked corn bin.
pelamun,
“appropriating another culture”?!
(“Mine — all mine! Bwa-hah-hah!”)
Nothing with references, but he tends to go off on Libertarian rants.
He misrepresented Silent Spring enough to make the blogsphere go after him, and think he’s still trying to downplay global warming.
As a chemist, it’s easiest for me to spot when he’s wrong there.
High Fructose Corn Syrup was dismissed by him as more unhealthy than sucrose, because they contain the same calories. That’s true, of course, but the same argument could be made for gasoline. The possible problem with HFCS (I’m not a physiologist) is that fructose and glucose may well trigger different responses in the digestive system. We have all sorta enzymes and other proteins that continually monitor the composition of our blood etc. That’s a hella complicated feedback system, and while I have no idea if HFSC is bad or not, but hearing it dismissed with so glib an argument, actually makes me more inclined towards the conspiratory mindset.
Nerd:
Thank you! Hahaha, Esme would be more than happy to do so, I’m afraid. Actually, Esme has mellowed quite a bit, Rubin is taking over as the master troublemaker and he’s getting good at thieving, however, he doesn’t quite have Esme’s skill yet.
How are you and The Redhead doing?
John,
I don’t think I get the joke…
@Sili
Just curious to see if it matched up with mine. Personally his episode defending Scientology just left me mouth agape. Ending with “I can’t imagine why Anonymous+internet is so focused on Scientology” just made me face palm. It was like everyone saying how Occupy won’t tell anyone what their goals are. Seriously, Brian? You think a religion that tried to infiltrate the US government, and use programs to slander and harass people is just like every other? WTF?
Gah!
I must have repressed the memory of that one Ing. I thought I’d heard them all.
Thanks for smacking my gob.
pelamun, historical culture or cultural tradition ain’t something someone owns or that can be appropriated (made one’s own).
Oh boy. Ok everyone you know the drill. All Lesser People get off of JM’s lawn now. Your silly feelings are not wanted here
Has anyone seen de Botton’s latest piece yet ?
Who Will Look After an Atheist’s Soul?
My reply
This should be fun.
de Botton reminds me of a guy who keeps talking about how he doesn’t get gay marriage because “who has the vagina?”.
We both had mild set-backs, me with a weird virus and she with a couple of small blood clots requiring anti-coagulants in a hospital setting. But we are now both back where we should be, and today I trimmed her toenails for the first time since the incident, making it safer for her therapists and/or nurses.
Literal LOL moment. Well done.
Attn: Anyone in AL, IN, MO, NH, OK
Today on its blog, the Discovery Institute made a push for creationist bills
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/03/dear_education057271.html
Those in those state really need to contact their elected representatives and POLITELY express your opposition to bills the Discovery Institute is telling its people to support.
You can make a difference here. If you don’t contact your representatives and the creationist do, the kids will pay the price. And don’t think that just because Republicans control your legislature that it is hopeless. Oklahomans for Excellence in Science Education has managed to defeat such bills for years in a state which one would think they would not have a chance.
Rorschach:
Oh ffs. Is there no end to his idiocy?
Ing, you tempt me to respond to you.
(But I am strong!
(well, -ish))
Alethea: Nobody is “accusing” you of anything. You are aggressively missing the points that Pelamun has been patiently trying to bring to your attention.
Read what you want. Don’t read what you don’t want. When you repeatedly lament that you’d really like to be educated about certain cultures but you just don’t have the time, you give the impression you want praise for wanting to do so without putting in any effort.
Morales, #265: You could Google on “cultural appropriation,” you know. There is a considerable body of scholarship about it. Then again, since it’s not “hard” science and since it would require you to actually challenge your own assumptions, I don’t imagine it would do you much good.
Ing, #268: I LOL’ed.
Ms. Daisy Cutter @166 replies to me @114:
Since I went about on all fours and my world extended no higher than you ankles, I have been in the company of the elderly. Old folks. Old guys, old gals, people who had survived and prospered and made it a point to pass something useful on to me. My father made it a point to take me to visit old people he knew so that I could listen to them and learn. What things I did learn. One neighbor had established his Wyoming homestead in 1896. He lived just over the creek and made me welcome. He was pushing eighty when I first remember him.
Since I got my legs under me and my world extended further, there have been so many dear friends who were old and who have since died. For at least two of them I was one of the last reliable companions that they had. I have washed their soiled sheets much as mine were washed by old gals long ago. I brought an old cowboy his last bottle and shared a drink with him from it.
The single best piece of advice I have ever received is by way of my step dad who learned it from his mother. She would say that one needs to be “wise, kind, and a little bit blind”. Following that principle has served me well. Thank you, grandmother.
So, to answer your question, “Patronizing of old women much, dude?” I must assert that in fact I do. I also patronize old men, old guys, old geezers, old mothers, old dears, old teachers, old friends, old mentors and all kinds of old people.
Much as I patronize a trusted merchant or family member. In the same fashion as I patronize this blog. It is a relationship based upon trust and an implicit expectation of positive outcomes.
I am just shy of completing the first full year of my seventh decade. I am now becoming old myself. I dearly hope that in the years ahead that young whippersnappers come and patronize me!
I’m sure you think, Crudely, that you just delivered a timeless, folksy piece of wisdom.
I regret to inform you that it stank of smarmy condescension.
I can’t help it: Stuff always reminds me of songs.
I think de Botton’s found his calling as a shit-stirrer. Next he’s going to suggest that we need secular circumcision or something.
Secular oral circumcision, at that.
Ing, I’m very happy to hear that things worked out for your grandmother.
Mattir, I glad to hear your recovery goes well. I’m hoping to seeing you at Reason Rally.
‘Tis, I hope your wife’s surgery and recovery are over quickly and with as little time as possible.
Menyambal, It is nice to hear from you again.
Giliell, *hugs* I don’t have any sage advice that hasn’t already been given; stay strong.
Caine, Happy Anniversary! I wish you and the Mister many more happy years. (And that’s for the rat update. It made me smile.)
By the way, I’d like to add to my comment at #276 that anyone who pulls that “Now, now, you dear old thing” shite with me when I”m old and decrepit is going to get my cane shoved so far up their ass, their uvula will be spot-welded into their soft palate.
With ritual blood sucking. Got to do it right.
Vampire mohels. Sparkly robe and tallis optional.
Thank you, Hekuni Cat! Chas, Esme & Rubin are all busy chowing down on steamed peas (Yes, Cicely, peas! Evil peas!) and gearing up for a night of mischief making. I finally managed to get my studio arranged in such a way that they can’t do any actual damage or steal important and expensive things. That doesn’t stop them trying, of course. To make up for being so nasty, I make sure to hide liberal amounts of pistachios, banana chips and seed blocks for them to discover.
@281
When you are old and decrepit you can, simply by asking, enjoy an exemption from my otherwise good will and supportive efforts of the, well, old and decrepit.
Till then, I will continue to visit, provide rides to the doc or to market, swap stories, learn from, idle away an afternoon and otherwise do what I can to make my elders feel valued and like they still have an active role to play in society. I have observed that when I do so, two are happy.
Happy anniversary to you, Caine, and to your husband. Will you be dancing in the conga-rat line? If so, pix?
Large Very Best =)
Oh, it wouldn’t be anything so barbaric as lopping off a foreskin. Would probably just be family and some designated Atheist Poobah reading Chicken Soup for the Soul over the new baby. Just as long as we cloak it in as much pomp and circumstance as we can muster.
Thank you, because oddly enough, Jewel is waaaaaaaaaaay better than what I was just listening to. I’ll inevitably end up playing Foolish Games over and over for a while.
I would like to respectfully request that someone educate me about this whole ritual circumcision with bloodsucking dealie.
I’ve heard of cases of infants contracting herpes from this practice before, but no one could ever explain it to my satisfaction.
To put it crudely, how is putting a child’s penis in one’s mouth not considered some form of sexual abuse?
Oh for fuck sake, Ms Daisy Cutter takes missing the point by thousands of miles for $600. Even Pelamun joins in just a tad, for a lesser sum.
Seriously, how many small words can I use to spell this out? Justalurker got it quite clearly.
Here are some points:
1. Culture, of ANY kind, takes learning. How that can be anything but fucking obvious, I completely fail to understand.
2. There are far too many cultures in the world for any person to become at home in more than a small handful of them.
3. It is a generally good idea to become educated about the world.
Are any of those controversial?
No? OK?
Next, can you spot ANYTHING that I wrote that denies the reality of oppression or cultural appropriation?
I’m waiting…
…
(quotes please)
…
Thanks.
Now can you address the actual issue? Or just stop, perhaps. It’s really, really, really annoying that you’re trying desperately to make me accept a point that was the actual premise that I started with.
In case you’re still interested, the issue is:
* GIVEN the problematic nature of orientalism, fetishization, othering, cultural appropriation etc,
AND
* GIVEN my 3 premises above
THEN: one can have a generally interesting discussion.
Example questions –
When is it appropriate to write about a culture not one’s own?
What is the role of a translator vs an interpreter vs a storyteller?
How can a person who is uneducated in a specific culture tell if an interpretation is faithful or exploitative (and can it even be both?)
OK? Are we clear now? Seriously, you can stop trying to tell me that water is wet, or that racism exists.
CW:
Thank you! No dancing. Just happy lazing about. :)
I’m sure they appreciate the effort–or at least the treats. ^_^
Well, it’s not done for sexual reasons for one, I would say. As to herpes, that is an interesting one. The child that was recently reported to have died had herpes simplex type 1, which is the one commonly found around and in the mouth (the coldsore virus), so the rabbi would have passed it on to the child that way. Had it been type 2 however, the good mohel may have had some more explaining to do, because that type you can only pick up through sexual contact with someone who is infected.
@ Caine
Here is a < for you and a < for Mr.
Instructions:
Combine with 33 like so … < + 3 and < + 3 …. gives you … ♥♥
@ Josh
Puuuurrrrrrrrrrrzzz….!
Theophontes:
Aaaaaaaaaaaw, thank you! ♥
@ pelamun/Alethea
The Illiad is a case to consider. No-one can really claim there is a negative cultural appropriation at work in its translation into English. (The culture of those times has ceased to exist, at least been transformed beyond recognition in the case of Greece. “Exploitation” seems out of place here.)
The original work is fixed but there are many approaches to translating it. Perhaps it really does need some interpretation or storytelling (eg: Alexander Pope’s embellishment) to carry it across to a new audience.
Everything about the old Greek culture is rather alien to a rank outsider. Even if you are religious and recognise aspects of the old gods, within the new, that is more a liability than an advantage. One would make the mistake as the reader (not necessarily the translator) to project onto the tale. It is only by absorbing a mass of information (including ideally learning the original language) that we can hope to approach any real understanding. English is quite simply unable to carry all the layers of structure and meaning and choices have to be made. If we are concerned that we are being duped by the translator, we can educate ourselves to the level of being able to take on the thing itself. Any go-between is in a power position that can be abused. (But then the same is true for any branch of science.)
Crudely Wrott
When I am at my end, I would like you (or someone like you) by my bedside.
FIFY:
Actually it would be more accurate to say:
I am not even aware if there are Chinese or Zulu translations. They would however meet with exactly the same problems as one meets in English.
Moreover, making the assumption that the tale is somehow an integral, and therefore readily accessible, part of Western Culture, will certainly lead to mistakes in itself – by creating a sense of equivalences that do not exist. One may be more mislead by apparent (and non-universal) familiarity, and hence further off the mark, than looking at it completely from the outside.
(And hell, yeah there are a lot of universal aspects to the tale that pretty much any person and any time or culture can identify with. This is a particular reason why this has so endured.)
I fucking hate fucking Daylight Saving Time and I would dance if it Died In A Fire.
Laughing Coyote @289:
I would be willing to bet good money that the practice started with some prehistoric shamanistic mumbo-jumbo about blood giving you power or control and seeped or oozed into the Jewish religion. There’s bound to be a written excuse for it to make up for the weirdness. The most laughable thing is that if these were instructions from a deity, it’s a very fucking ignorant deity. The sky-critter was completely unaware of infectious diseases, the obvious depravity of pedophilia and no real reason to do it in the first place. If the Jewish community can’t get red-faced over this oblivious bunk there’s something seriously wrong with them.
I should add that there’s a video of Hitchens debating a rabbi and Hitch specifically mentions the penis sucking circumcisions. The rabbi assures everyone that this silly practice died out long, long ago. Welcome to Liars For Moses.
McCthulhu: Liars for moses. Huh. I was watching an episode of Dr Phil with the ex and we both ended up getting so mad she turned it off. There was this woman from an ultra religious jewish community who had been religiously pressured into marrying a man she didn’t like who was insecure and didn’t want to let her out of the house, and he had this Rabbi on the show, and he seriously did not seem to give a fuck about the shit she suffered, just wanted to keep defending the religion and dismissing her experiences like a pompous ass, with a bunch of token “What happened to you was very unfortunate but”.
At one point he even said “That may be one of the most antisemitic things I ever heard on tv!”
This is not entirely true. HSV-2 is indeed found primarily in genital herpes infections, but it can and does sometimes produce oral infections. HSV-1, on the other hand, frequently causes genital infections (depending on the population up to 50% or more of all cases).
The site preference mainly shows in how often they produce recurrences, with oral HSV-2 producing fewer and milder than all other combinations.
Additionally, in a newborn up to six weeks, a HSV-2 infection is likely to be the result of perinatal infection, so be careful when assessing the probability of sexual abuse.
Punch line: No kissing or oral-genital contact with cold sores, no sex whatsoever with genital sores (transmission during latency is rare). Also, if you are pregnant and have a history of genital herpes, you will want to let your OB/GYN know and prepare for a c-section.
I don’t know. Never?
Or it’s when you do know what you’re talking about. That seems to mean you have to make it your own in a sense, but what you make is unavoidably going to be different than the original.
I can read Homer (et al?), and you could draw a line between us while saying we’re part of “the West.” The fact remains that I’m obviously not an ancient Greek, so it isn’t my culture. I don’t hear their stories the way they heard them. There’s this Westernosity we have in common, but that’s only a model and one has to remember there are lots and lots of details being left out of it in order to make it somewhat useful some of the time.
For that matter, I have to accept that I’m largely ignorant about modern Western culture, even as one of its members. I’m simply not going to understand most of it and never will, so I’m bound to misrepresent it, unless I break it up into little pieces and only worry about the ones I have any chance of understanding.
I don’t understand the question. I suggest you make it easier to answer, so I won’t have to think very much. ;)
I think one could tell to some extent, if one is carefully looking for ways it’s presented too simplistically, in a biased perspective, or how a person’s or group’s behavior isn’t given a believable motivation. That sort of thing would be a pretty good indication and doesn’t generally require a detailed understanding of a particular culture, just a fairly decent model of human behavior in general. Beyond some obvious clues like that, if you aren’t part of the culture in question, I guess you couldn’t tell the difference. (And I don’t think it can be both.)
Hence the use of “may”.
Hi there
Thatnk you all for your support and kind words
You are truely a great help for me at the moment.
At the moment, I feel relieved.
I feel like Jennifer Connelly in “Labyrinth” when in the end she tells the Goblin King that he has no power over her.
The spell is broken.
I am sorry for my kids. I am really sorry that they’ll miss out on many things now, but well, it’s probably better for them in the long run. And I won’t have them held hostage in order to bring me back in line.
On the bright side:
Antibiotics are wonderfull stuff. The very, very sick kid I had yesterday is out and about again.
Bad news: her luttle sister starts to develop the exanthema, too, and I feel like I caught it, too.
I only wished that I could have the nice pink strawberry flavoured juice instead of the brick-sized bitter pills.
Caine
Happy anniversary
Well, I was going to link to the Wikipedia page on Postmodernist Anthropology but it is awful. And I mean really, really awful.
But that should give you something to google and it should help. Then google “critiques of Postmodernist Anthropology”.
However, I think there’s a difference between representing (or attempting to represent and/or interpret) a culture and appropriating a culture (or aspects of a culture).
For example: New Ageism/and other apocalyptic scenarios and the idea of the end of the world based on the Maya calendar=appropriation. Anthropologists, archaeologists, art historians writing about the Maya calendar and the supposed end of the world=representation.
I think, yes, it can be both. For example, using information regarding a culture to achieve your own political ends that are not really beneficial or relevant to the group you are representing. As for how to tell: I think it would be almost painfully obvious. And if you read something about a specific culture group that you’re not familiar with, look for critiques of what you’ve read as well.
Sorry, I know I’m a terrible writer and my post may not be too clear (plus I’m experiencing a bit of insomnia right now, so I’m not exactly thinking clearly), but I tried to contribute to something that I thought might be an interesting discussion. When the rest of the house wakes up and I don’t run the risk of infuriating anyone, I’ll try to remember to rummage through my stuff to see if I can find anything to further help.
Culture, eh?
So… the People’s Republic of Pharyngula already exists in the cyber-memetic realm.
(Has it not a culture?)
@ John Morales
It has gone even further than that. The breakaway Pharyngulite People’s Republic of South TET is growing from strength to strength.
What am I, south or north ?
Oh my I can’t keep up.
In the meantime I wanted to bring your attention to a German shoemaker who wants to make sure atheists have a sole.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1497254033/atheist-shoes
Squigit,
it’s not that easy. Western anthropologists, linguists and others waltzing into the space of indigenous peoples and “representing” their culture has increasingly been an issue over the last decades.
Even for history, I think it would apply. Though the good historian strives to be a translator of some sorts.
@ rorschach
Dual nationality is allowed, inward investment encouraged.
It is a gorgeously large TET, with acres of space in spread out park-like settings. to romp in. We have our own resident godbot (both very squeeky and chewy at the same time) and free grog and cookies. There is a picture here and a detail picture here.
You can link through this portal here.
Yeah. A load of cobblers, I thought.
@ pelamun
[cultural appropriation]
I don’t think you really want to see this music video then. Link (Not quite SFW)
theophontes,
actually I can’t see it due to a rights dispute (involves all UMG and Sony content I guess).
I’d need to switch on my VPN. Is it worth it?
Don’t misunderstand me, though. I’m not running around through the world crying APPOPRIATION, APPROPRIATION all the time, or boycott westerners working on non-western stuff. Heck, I read the books of western historians on Asian history. But I try not to ignore the problem of cultural dominance while doing so…
@ pelamun
It is a kind of parody of all that can go wrong ito appropriation. It is a video that was made for the film “Get Him to the Greek” (designed to make one cringe). Still picture of Aldous Snow in “African Child” video. (The video is worse.)
theophontes: On the contrary, that video is hilarious! It’s clearly taking the piss out of the very phenomenon you describe.
Ah, I see that was your intention after all :)
Gileill:
Congratulations, friend. I know how hard won this victory/beginning is for you. May you always feel thus.
I absolutely applaud your decision to walk away. I wonder if any of the literature on the kinds of damage and (mal)adjustment involved in dealing with the personality disorders of others, such as Walking On Eggshells, would be of help to you in unpacking what came before as you move ahead.
-=-=-=-
Caine! Many happy monkey for your anniversary :)
The Sailor,
No, that’s an insufficient explanation. It only tells us where they might have picked up the idea in the first place. It doesn’t explain how they cling to it later when they are exposed to contradictory evidence. Joseph at Corpus Callosum touched on this, but here are the researchers themselves:
«We characterize this explanation as being about the information environment: it implies that if voters had possessed the correct information, they would not have believed in the link. Underlying this explanation is a psychological model of information processing that scholars have labeled “Bayesian updating,” which envisions decision makers incrementally and rationally changing their opinions in accordance with new information (Gerber and Green 1999). […]
How can we distinguish empirically between the informational explanation and the social psychological explanation? If the information environment explanation is accurate and the belief is explained by incorrect information given or suggested by the administration, then we would expect correct information given by the administration to reduce rates of belief in the link. However, if the belief is maintained through social psychological processes, then we would expect little change in the face of correct information given by the administration. To distinguish empirically between these hypotheses, we need to present respondents who believe in this link with information from the Bush administration itself that casts doubt on the link. If voters show a willingness to change their minds in the face of this information, we can conclude that the belief in the link was a product of incorrect (prior) information given or implied by the administration. However, if they show resistance to the correct information, then social psychological processes are likely to be at work. […]
Because we felt that President Bush himself would be the most trustworthy source of information for these Republican partisans, we emphasized the newspaper article by reading the full quote to respondents while showing them the newspaper clip. The exact wording of the challenge was:
[…] To determine whether a respondent was showing Bayesian updating (the willingness to change one’s mind in the face of contradictory information from a trusted source) or motivated reasoning (resisting contradictory information), we analyzed our data in two different ways. First, we examined whether our respondents deflected the information, and we categorized the strategies that they used to do so. Second, to conduct a more stringent test of the motivated reasoning hypothesis, we examined whether respondents attended to the contradictory data at all. Lupia (2002) argues that Bayesian updating happens in three stages: to successfully change opinion, a piece of information must be attended to, remembered, and used in decision making. The first stage, attention, is a prerequisite for the second and third stages. By coding whether our respondents attended to the information we produced a minimum estimate for motivated reasoning, which can also happen at the second or third stages.
We coded attentiveness according to whether the interviewee gave any verbal indication of having attended to the challenge. It is possible that some of our respondents did attend to the information, but did not verbalize or demonstrate that attention. To guard against this, we allowed minimal demonstrations or verbalizations to count as having attended to the challenge, and we did not judge the respondent’s reasons for resisting the information; if the respondent simply said “I don’t believe it,” and gave no reason, we considered that the respondent had attended to the information. […]
Only one respondent changed his mind about a link between Saddam and 9/11 (although not about voting for Bush) based on the evidence we presented[….]
The most popular strategy was to quickly switch the topic to other good reasons that the war in Iraq was justified. This strategy was used by nearly one in three respondents and was the single largest category of responses to our questions about the perceived link. This interviewee downplays the significance of the question about the link without actually responding to the question: “There is no doubt in my mind that if we did not deal with Saddam Hussein when we did, it was just a matter of time when we would have to deal with him.” […]
These respondents do not deny the lack of evidence but simply defend the actions of the president. They empathize with the difficulty of his decision, and give him the leeway to make mistakes. Thus, attitude bolstering involves both switching topics from the merits of the link between Iraq and 9/11 and adding other plausible reasons for having gone to war in Iraq. […]
Examples of [the selective exposure] strategy include: “I don’t know. I don’t know anything about . . . where and what we’re going after.” and “I’m gonna pass on this one, for now.” The respondents in this category were either unwilling to put their knowledge of the state of evidence up to the interviewer’s scrutiny, or were generally puzzled about events. These respondents fit perfectly into the expectations of scholars of motivated reasoning, who predict simple disengagement with data that contradicts one’s beliefs. […]
This respondent [using the strategy of disputing rationality] never offered a substantive reason for her belief in the link. Rather, she distances herself from factual reasoning altogether by grounding her justification in subjectivism—“we still can have our opinions.”
These respondents understand the challenge evidence and continue to believe in the link, even when faced with this lack of confirming evidence. However, they do not offer reasons for a continuing belief in such a link. We suggest that this sort of reasoning method, offering no substantive reason for believing in something other than personal opinion, is more common than most members of a democracy would generally care to admit (Billig 1989; Garfinkel 1967; Gilbert and Mulkay 1984; Pollner 1974; see also Shi-xu 2000). […]
People who displayed inferred justification assumed that since a politician they trusted had begun this war, there must be a good reason for it. Moreover, as the 9/11 attacks were the most visible foreign policy event of recent years, they assumed 9/11 was the reason for the war and actively resisted information suggesting otherwise. We found seven clear examples of inferred justification in the interviews. A paradigmatic example is the following:
This respondent’s recall of a conversation leads her to search for reasons why U.S. troops are “still over there” and suggests that the answer must emanate from the self-evident fact that we are, indeed, “still over there”. The existence of the situation itself is used to infer what must be true about the world for the situation to exist, as in the examples of the Tom Sawyer studies and uninformed response bias discussed above. On such a high-stakes issue as going to war, a leader must have an extraordinarily good reason for wanting to behave in this way. […]
Another respondent says: “I don’t think that if we weren’t attacked we would just go in and start shooting up the place. I think a lot of it was getting even.” These respondents argue that Iraq must have been directly involved, because the administration would not have randomly invaded a harmless country. They use the war itself as a heuristic leading them to conclude that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11, and for some of them this heuristic is strong enough to allow them to discount contradictory information. […]
We have shown in this article that when presented with correct information about the lack of a link between Iraq and Al Qaeda from a trusted source, most of our respondents deflected this information. The only exceptions were respondents who denied having believed in the link at all (7 respondents out of 49) and one who did use the information to change his mind about the link. We have also shown that one-third of the respondents coded as average or below average in information simply ignored the challenging information altogether, thus not meeting the most elementary prerequisite for Bayesian updating. To summarize, our evidence suggests that the information environment argument is overstated.»
chigau:
You and me both. Fuck Daylight Savings Time right in its fucking ear.
guh. I can’t change my nym?
Alright then. pelamun,
Well then, the answer is “no” without an asterisk.
It’s hard for me to decide which, but changing just Congress would still be awesome.
It would require some finagling. Such a candidate would have to pre-arrange a legal contract with their potential Electors, much like AE is attempting. And then hope hope hope that the Supreme Court allows the validity of such an arrangement. There are already Constitutional provisions to deal with normal cases when no candidate wins a majority of electors. I think AE’s plan is clever, but it’s a coin-toss as to whether the Court would allow it.
Eh. A couple of options are plausible, not just possible.
Remember that states control their own elections, not the federal government. And several states, including several big, important states, have referenda at the ballot box which amend their constitutions, regardless of what the state legislatures think.
So it is possible to bypass the parties, in these states, and write IRV or some other preference voting system directly into the state constitution. You can be sure that both major parties would propagandize against it in swing states, but the four “bigger” minor parties do get their voices heard somewhat, and in solid-blue or solid-red states the minority party might be supportive too. (For instance, the Republican Party of California, having nothing to lose in the legislature, might like to disrupt things by trading some Democrats for Greens.)
It’s “just” a matter of gathering signatures, and then doing standard campaign advertisements and GOTV efforts, probably a few election cycles in a row so that voters eventually get used to the idea.
Love Moderately @319:
Oh…my…FSM. The entire country may as well just bend over now and place a sign on its derrière saying ‘INSERT PORCUPINE HERE.’
@mikelaing: Thank you for posting the linky to the water rocket. I have been looking for neat things to get my little girl for her birthday and that’s almost identical to the rocket I had when I was little.
Yes, of course, Crudely, one cannot possibly have good will toward or make supportive efforts toward the old without being a condescending fuckwad who “humors” them and believes them unable to hear unpalatable truths.
So, you and Sarah Palin: Did you take lessons in fauxlksiness from her, or did she take them from you? How about passive-aggressive assumptions — who mentored you in those?
Alethea:
Alethea, if I or anyone else in this thread had insisted that you learn about every other culture out there, or that you were a horrible racist for not doing so, you might have a point.
And, no, culture “of ANY kind” does not necessarily take learning, at least not the conscious sort that requires effort. How many fucking times does it have to be explained to you that there is a difference between learning the aspects of ancient Greek culture that are reserved for classrooms and scholarly books, such as what an “aegis” is; and learning the aspects that have survived into Western popular culture, such as the expression “sour grapes”? You pick up the latter by osmosis.
Oh, and the fact that I (probably) don’t have to explain the term “osmosis” to you is another indicator of how influential ancient Greek culture remains, 2,500 years on.
I’m done with this topic. Pelamun can keep trying if he desires.
ॐ
You will always be Strange Gods to me.
Fixed that for you.
andrewriding: Not much different from karlvonmox, just whinier and more verbose. WAAAAH UR PRIVILEGED BCUZ YOU HAVE TEH VAJAYJAY!! IMA NEVER GONNA TRY TO TALK TO A CHICK AGAIN!!!
Good. I had no idea that by making one insulting internet comment I could effect positive change in the world.
apropos of nothing,
I started learning the Devanagari script, and interestingly enough ॐ is a special character.
I would have expected ओम् (om) or ओम (because I’m learning the script for Hindu, not for Sanskrit), but there is of course the candra bindu, the “moon like thing” here ँ which in Hindi stands for nasalised vowels, but in Sanskrit could also stand for a syllabic nasal “ṃ”. So ॐ is a ligature of ओ and ँ …
Om.
Facepalms at self. But the I and U letter keys are next to each other, is my defence.
Theophontes, fired up my VPN, saw the video. Wow. Speechless. Downloaded it so I can have access to it whenever I need to independent of VPN.
David,
Well, maybe you’ll explain it again? Of course I have seen you say these things many times, and I’ve tried to get it, and I think I may have asked you to explain before, but honestly I have never been able to understand why either of these points are relevant to the number of parties. Your 3 may might follow if 2 is relevant(?) but I’m just stumped from the beginning.
(The election of the President is almost invariably going to be from one party or another. That may be why I don’t understand 2. If we get a President then it probably means they came from a party.)
@ Ms. Daisy Cutter
Words like lichi and mango and tea are indicators of how influential ancient Chinese culture remains 4000 years on.
Ok, that was a little facetious, but I am trying to make a point. We don’t really stand so far “outside” of these old cultures. Their basic life circumstances paralleled our own forebears … wherever they were (I am neither Greek nor Chinese.) The Noah myth for example is an important one (for very obvious reasons) in many diverse cultures including Chinese.
And the past within ones own culture differs substantially more than a the difference between the cultures of contemporary Greek or Chinese school-kids.
And what to say about cross cultural hybrids (myself included)? I wouldn’t exaggerate this unnecessarily.
(Not that I in anyway endorse a video like Aldous’s. I’m with you in such cases.)
Heh. To me, too. These are entirely frivolous nyms, and when I tire of them and run out of new ideas I’ll use strange gods again.
Theophontes,
maybe I’m being facetious too here, but phrasing it like
borkquote
Theophontes,
maybe I’m being facetious too here, but phrasing it like
does show a western bias here. I think other cultures were able to come up with their own flood myths all by their own…
Also, nitpick: mango is mostly likely of Tamil origin.
and neither tea nor lychee date back 4,000 years back (sorry, this six-thousand years of Chinese history thing is a pet peeve of mine)
Theophontes, I would disagree that the influence of ancient Chinese culture parallels that of ancient Greek culture in the West. Tea is a relatively recent import to the West, lychee nuts even more recent.
China is certainly a world power and has been such in the ancient past, but only very recently has Western culture even begun to approach it in anything but an exoticizing manner, whether fetishizing it or demonizing it. I’m not that old, and the cartoons I watched as a kid were unfortunately not devoid of cone-hatted, buck-toothed, sing-song-speaking stereotypes (or other racist stereotypes). Ancient Greece, OTOH, was seen as “white” and therefore was treated in popular culture in a playful but not demeaning manner.
There are certainly universal aspects to all cultures, such as myths of origin or certain power dynamics. But this universality is expressed in a myriad of ways, and the commonality can be stretched only so far before you begin to run into significant differences that hinder communication and understanding — even in an era when the fruits of modern technology are flattening differences between disparate cultures.
I can’t speak to the experiences of “cross-cultural hybrids.” I’ve seen my share of the writings of bicultural people who express feelings of alienation in both cultures, but I wouldn’t presume to expand on them; it’d be presumptive.
I rite gud. Me and Kevin with his gaggling women.
@ pelamun
This does not detract from my point.
Shorthand applied for the current audience, I could describe the Noah myth as equivalent to the Hen San Mudi myth if this was a Dai audience. (I dare you to google the story ;)
Does “osmosis” date back that far (hell. does the average person even realise it is ancient Greek?) The first dynasties go back about 4000 years (Xi?). Chinese has impacted our culture for quite a long time, that is enough to make the point.
@ SG
I can’t really imagine you running out of ideas nor being upset with people using SG.
So, I saw Piers Morgan (bleh) interviewing Ron Paul (double bleh) the other day. The idiot asked the asshole how he thought about gay marriage as a personal and religious matter, not a political matter.
I wonder if this was an aberration, maybe he had a minor stroke and forgot his usual talking points, but maybe he is actually starting to change his mind.
I can’t find a transcript, but as I remember at the time, the asshole seemed to respond unequivocally that gay marriage is a Good Thing, that if people are happy then they are doing what’s right for them.
It was very unusual.
I guess I just want to make sure everybody knows but yesterday, the datacupcake got the banhammer.
Sniff.
He never got a chance to talk some more about the False Rape Society on the MRA hate group thread.
Maybe that’s what he’s always thought, and it was only ostensibly separating the question from politics that allowed him to answer clearly. In which case, we can expect that he’ll continue being dead weight at best, and an obstacle more often.
Ms. Daisy Cutter,
Definitely. I can speak to that. But probably another topic. Also I’ve been lucky that I was brought up bilingually, including the written language of the less dominant culture (less dominant also in the sense that it was not the culture in which I grew up in geographically speaking).
I’ve met bicultural people who were cut off from one of their cultures. I can’t claim to know how that would feel either.
drbunsen, thank you. :)
Giliell, thank you. ♥ I smiled when I saw you on flickr this morning, thanks for that. Congrats on walking away from the toxic swamp that can be family. It’s not for everyone, but it worked well for me.
@ Ms Daisy Cutter
Don’t be freaked out by this but in South Africa, when I was growing up, Chinese where officially “Honorary Whites”. (Yeah, all this got really weird.. So glad we’ve moved on – even if there is a way to go still.)
I lol’d. But rutee, now I’m dying to know, what is MRM?
@ pelamun
Touche pussycat. I was brought up bilingually (Afrikaans and English), but tended to Afrikaans until I started school. I lived in The Netherlands after ‘varsity and spoke Dutch (I was not brought up to speak it, but was exposed to the language and culture via my grandparents.) Now I live in China and spend my days with “Chinglish” at work (when I am not skiving on TET)
Theophontes,
osmosis doesn’t, but you’re comparing apples and oranges here.
Osmosis isn’t Ancient Greek in the sense of that it was the ancient Greeks who coined that word, but it’s part of the international scientific vocabulary Europeans coined in the process of modernisation and industrialisation. Apparently acc to Etymonline:
In a sense though that shows how ingrained Ancient Greek lexical material had become in various European languages, similar to how Japanese scholars coined scientific terms using Chinese lexical material in the 19th century. (I don’t have the access to the East Asian dictionaries now to check the word history of the CJK word for “osmosis”)
Ancient Greek fables, Homer etc have been around for a long time, and they are part of the foundation European culture has built upon. Sour grapes is just one example (and one that will not work in every European language), but also concepts of a hero like Hercules, the gods on the Olymp, also of course ideas about governance….
No-one is denying that Chinese culture has influenced European culture. Of course it has. There are also certain human universals, and indeed many myths have common traits. But no-one ever denied this. But that’s really not the question here now, is it.
(Also my pet peeve relates more to Chinese nationalists always clamouring about their 6000 years of history. It wasn’t really about anything you said. You probably aren’t a Chinese nationalist anyway.
If you mean Xià, it’s estimated to be around 2000 B.C.E. There are some archaeological discoveries, but it remains unclear if it really was a dynasty in the sense the Shāng Dynasty was one (from 1,600 B.C.E.).
Yeah, I didn’t mean to imply that it was that simple in my comment nor did I mean to imply that the line between “representation” and “appropriation” is always clear. The issue is a lot more complex, with more variables and views than I could possibly convey in a single comment or blog post. It takes reading histories of science (I’m speaking specifically from the perspective of an anthropology student in the US) and the relationships with indigenous groups to even begin to understand.
CC,
:) It’s all up to you. For some folks it helps, for some it don’t.
@ pelamun
Heh, even though I live in China, I will likely have to read a Western scholar to learn more about this. (But I will remain critical!)
As things are, I just don’t have the energy left at the end of the day to learn to read – I will never attain that level at least.
Theophontes,
I personally have always been more interested in history than archaeology (so before coming to Pharyngula I didn’t even know the Exodus from Egypt didn’t have any archaeological evidence), so I don’t pretend to know much about the Xià debate. Because in the written records you only find myths about Xià. The period where Chinese writing “explodes” is the Chunqiu era and that’s where Shang is already on the decline (8th c. B.C.E.).
I do seem to remember though that there was a debate in the Chinese academic community about Xià. Some scholars saying that it all was a myth, and some trying to get the most out of the archaeological evidence (which would be what the government wants of course).
Before catching up on the historical/archaeological discussion going on…
I went to my first drag queen performance last night. What fun! The boyfriend of one of my brother’s close friends performed, and IMO he was the best out of all them, and perhaps the best-looking, although the one who danced with barely a rest during “River Deep Mountain High” (Celine Dion version) was a close second for me. I’d go to another show gladly!
On the downside: I must enjoy banging my head against invisible walls or something. Mom once again started with her “men make better waiters/bartenders/bosses than women” crap at the restaurant we went to before the show. I could point out time and again that men can be just as horrible, if not worse, and she’ll brush it off, leaving me seething. I almost texted J, my best friend and another friend, “It’s official: My mother hates women being in positions of power, or pretty much anywhere near where men tend to work. Remind me of this when I start to wonder if I’ll ever move out of the house.” *sigh* I’d have ordered another drink to numb myself, but reminded myself that the safest place to get buzzed while depressed is home.
Really, that conversation was just a reminder that I could be the best bartender, waitress, whatever, and there are still people who will whine because I don’t have my genitals on the outside of my body. Christ, now I really need a drink, or something to stab and punch.
Other bright spot: The food was good. I’m going to suggest the place to J next time we meet up.
meta, upthread:
I know the choice is up to the individuals writing, but I’d really appreciate it if we could do away with the “die in a fire” wishes for things we don’t like. I’m sure I’m not the only person here for whom this can be a trigger. Could we just use “step on a lego”?
***
I had a bunch of friends over for appetizers and dessert fondues last night. I don’t get to do this often, because I live with my parents and I’m pretty far away from the rest of the group.
One of my friends was raised in a conservative Christian denomination, and, although she’s not serious about religion, she’s definitely retained some conservative characteristics. She was talking last night about how when she and her fiance have kids, they will spank them. I brought up the recent study that shows this does more harm than good, but apparently evidence is not as important as ideology. *sigh*
Later in the evening, her fiance was making some comments about how the butch lesbians on a rugby team were completely unattractive (who the fuck cares what he thinks about them?). My friend then said that she didn’t like the bicurious women either, because they were “just indecisive”. ARGH! And of course I couldn’t come up with any rebuttals that wouldn’t either a) start a big argument or b) out me as questioning, which I definitely don’t want this couple to know about me.
They know that I don’t put up with more blatant homophobia, but I doubt they even realized how homophobic their remarks were. And, well, the female friend sometimes pings my not-entirely-straight-dar, and the comments about indecisive women just increased that suspicion – I hope this marriage is the right choice for her.
Other than those comments, it was a good night, and I just finished having more dessert fondue for breakfast. (Yes, breakfast in the afternoon. I needed my sleep.)
***
Geese! I just saw a flock of about a dozen geese! It’s officially spring now.
***
PTI: Here’s some *grog of your choice*. We can be frustrated with our friends and family members together.
Ugh, Daylight Savings Time. And an off-kilter sleep schedule independent of DST. And seeing Donnie Darko last night, which did some … odd things to my dreams. Not all unpleasant, just odd.
Bill, #194:
This one?
CC, #217: That really sucks. I’m glad you have instructors on your side, in any case. I hope you manage to pull through okay both health-wise and grade-wise.
Sailor, #220: WTF? And in Berkeley, of all places?
Nerd, #269: Glad you and Redhead are doing better.
KG, #312: “A load of cobblers, I thought.” Yeah. It won’t last.
McCthulhu, #323: We might have more of a chance if a great many people on the nominal “left” were willing to treat politics like the blood sport it is, rather than fap about “civility” and act as though all our opponents are reasonable people who will eventually listen to reason.
Theophontes, #346: I’m a bit surprised, admittedly, but not freaked out. Race relations in the U.S. aren’t a proxy for race relations in the rest of the world, and I’ve seen some people stumble unwittingly into arguments by assuming otherwise. Big hot button in particular: The treatment of Eastern Europeans in Western Europe, which is (at least sometimes) referred to as “racism” in Europe. This nomenclature offends some anti-racism people in the U.S.
SGBM, #347: Men’s Rights Movement.
Pelamun, #349: Thanks for explaining that better than I could.
Nutmeg, #355: I’m happy to not use “die in a fire,” but, no, I’m not going to stop insulting jerks by wishing baroque and highly unlikely deaths on them that, very likely, nobody has ever experienced. People who wish to be protected from any and all violent metaphors can go hang out on Shakesville, which a friend of mine left because Melissa’s nasty little minions screamed at her for wishing aloud that pedo-priests would be flogged in the streets. Or the Slacktiverse, where they fucking warn for birth, and even birth metaphors, because a few people had unpleasant labors. Fuck that mentality.
As I said, I will pointedly not use “step on a lego” because I associate it with over-the-top language policing from the sorts of people who misuse social justice as a way to bully others and not be called on it. And, yes, they exist. This has been a sore point in the LiveJournal and Dreamwidth communities for the last few years. If you want to use it, go ahead, but don’t presume to tell me I should use it.
Shiite death squads in Iraq target “emo” youth, due to the subculture being widely perceived there as gay. (TW for graphic description of murder.)
But Indians were honorary blacks?
Ladies and gentlemen, and the rest of us who do not fit the description, may I present; The #DJBreitbart Project.
Oh fuck! I like some of these songs.
I miss the use of the Gumby script.
Richard,
It’s pharyngula dot wikia dot com, but no such page exists.*
One should, though!
*I’m pretty sure. Sometimes I notice pages I’d completely forgotten about because I had nothing to do with them, but I think I would have contributed to an abortion point-counterpoint.
+++++
Halp! PZ! The software has decided that Wikia links are spam. Can you whitelist it?
Ms. Daisy Cutter,
Ohhhh. Thanks.
I think that almost nobody listens to reason, though a great many of us are experts at generating and speaking it.
I agree with a slightly modified version of what Ing said at #11: “you actually can’t argue most people into positions rationally that they do not hold [primarily] for rational reasons. You would have to first use emotional argumentation to convince them of the value of the rationality.”
For the purposes of not letting young people get lost to conservatism or libertarianism in the first place, though, I’ve been wondering if lefties can offer something not tremendously more complicated than that all-purpose libertarian hook, “do not initiate force (for certain values of ‘initiate’ and ‘force’).”
He’s baaaaa-aaaaack!!!
Venting.
So homophobes like to go on and on about hetero pride parades.
Here’s one.
In Germany there is a tradition of so-called “shooting associations“. They do sports shooting, and at the same time keep local customs alive (predictably tend to be more socially conservative). They hold festivals and parades, where they have a “royal couple” preside over the proceedings. This couple is usually selected by a shooting competition (I’m not an expert on these associations, but traditionally these used to be a man, who would then choose a queen, usually his wife or girlfriend. Some associations now have separate competitions for men and women). Last year in one such local chapter, a gay man won the title of King. He wanted to be accompanied by his civil union partner to all these functions, naturally. This caused much consternation with his fellow members, and they arrived at a so-called compromise, whereby his partner would walk behind him instead of next to him (WTF?).
But of course this was not enough for the homophobes. So today, the North-Rhine Westphalia state chapter (the most populous German state with 16m) decides to bar gay couples as royal couples. Gay men can still be king, but they have to choose a woman as their queen. They also have the gall of saying that they’re not homophobic, they want to merely uphold their Christian tradition.
(The spokesman of the shooter’s association denied the accusations. “We do not discriminate against homosexuals” he said to the news agency dapd on Sunday, “we keep our close association to the Catholic church.” He further said that it was about the traditional role of man and woman.”)
Fuck you fucking assholes.
(German news story)
Heh. New kitty jumped on the piano, which made a noise that spooked her. After wandering around on the keys for a while, she worked out which way to go to make it stop. :)
In related news, she seems to instinctively know that she should go after the budgie. But he’s so fricking noisy when she’s around that she runs off in terror.
Half-time report: nil-nil draw. (And I split an infinitive.)
I’m time-zoned out again as usual, but very belated yay for Ing’s legal news and Caine’s anniversary, and – @ Giliell, that is a hell of a lot to deal with and it certainly sounds like you are doing the right thing. If she’s that belittling and dismissive with you, she’s not likely to be the best presence in her grandchildren’s lives (not least because it’s not great for them to see/experience you being put down like that – by your own parent).
Best wishes to ‘Tis Herself, and ongoingly to the Redhead and Nerd.
Never going to catch up, am I.
This just in: Santorum is neither blown nor tossed.
Ms. Daisy Cutter:
Sounds good to me, thank you. “Step on a lego” was the first thing I thought of, but I’d be happy to replace it with “be savaged by a herd of rampaging Daphnia” or something similarly unlikely.
I wouldn’t want Pharyngula to become over-censored either, but I do appreciate it when people try to avoid or warn about relatively common triggers.
The appropriate German wish is that somebody should go on the Autobahn and play with something poisonous.
Urgh, and my throat feels like I choked on barbed wire.
Want antibiotics
janine: “Ladies and gentlemen” triggered me:
Chemical Brothers – Live at the Social (Vol 1)
You need to give it seven minutes before the randomness makes sense.
It’s more like a curse, not an insult. It’s not actually going to happen, so what’s the point? Not to say you believe it will happen, just that you think it should? You think people deserve some kind of horrible death for saying or doing something shitty, or do you not even want to imply that? If not, then why say so, other than to express outrage? If that’s all you want, then there are plenty of insults (or even curses, if that’s your thing) which would be just as effective without all the unwanted side effects.
They can hang out here too, of course. What you’re saying is that you’re going to use violent rhetoric anyway, for some reason I haven’t yet figured out. Maybe it doesn’t need any justification, but if you have one that would help.
I guess it isn’t “any and all” violent rhetoric that I’m worried about. Talking about the “War on Christmas” or “militant atheists” just needs to be mocked for its absurdity, not taken seriously.
It does bother me when people say others should commit suicide, or other things that are just plain abusive. When someone jokes that some asshole should kill himself or herself, that joke isn’t only at the asshole’s expense. I had friends who committed suicide. I have to deal with it too, for no good reason other than the joker also being an asshole.
That may not matter to you. In fact, maybe you do want to hurt me while “insulting” this asshole, precisely because it will mean I’ll get sucked into an argument with you about the kind of “tone” you think I want. I’m not playing that game, nor am I saying we shouldn’t be free to say whatever we want here. It would nevertheless be nice if people would think about what they’re actually saying and who it will hurt.
Sorry, that was a re: janine rather than an @janine. Just spraffin’.
*hugs and warm tea to Giliell :(*
@janine:
My dad got one of those solicitations from Walker a couple weeks ago. Odd thing is, my dad lives in Kentucky, and has absolutely no interests in Wisconsin whatsoever.
I don’t know a great deal about the ins and outs of political fundraising, but that doesn’t seem right, does it? To ask non-residents with no connection to the state, financial or otherwise, for money? Or is such a thing among state politicians more commonplace than I imagine?
Cultural appropriation? Li Yundi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo82ipPkTRY&t=115
(Kid #1 spotted it on a Tom and Jerry cartoon the other week. Now we have multiple appropriations. Is this not how the modern world works?)
Ahh, endless love.
Damn.
Has anyone seen this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukiyaki_Western_Django
Whee! Totally thread bankrupt.
Yesterday was a long day of work.
Today, I baked. Actually, I still am baking.
To date, I have made today:
1 batch chocolate-chip cookies
2 loaves of hobo bread (see below) are in the oven
2 loaves of banana bread are standing by to go in the oven.
I have also made baked beans. They are delicious!
Hobo bread is an oddly-named deeply delicious bread. Very dense, very sweet. Five ingredients (flour, baking soda, salt, buttermilk, molasses), though I added a sixth, raisins.
In other news, my apartment smells amazing.
Esteleth
Lucky you!
We’re making kimchee and nuka pickles.
The smell in the house is
amazingeye-watering.CR,
Lazy (cunning?) as I am, when I choose to express such sentiments, I typically merely tell people I wish they would get what they deserve.
(No-one to whom I’ve done so has failed to grasp my meaning — but then, I don’t use it on the truly clueless)
I should note that when I said that I made baked beans, I mean the method of making them from scratch over an 8 hour period.
Makes them taste better. :D
Caine
Happy anniversary.
StarStuff
Ditto on the “you’ll understand when you’re older” bullshit.
Bill Dauphin, 94
If you didn’t see it, I addressed you in 488 of the last TET.
Giliell, 154
I hope your daughter is doing better. Also from what I’ve been reading about your mother, that sounds like a good step for you. All the best.
Yeah, no worries about the discussion. Whenever is good for you.
Cassandra, 217
Ende gut, alles gut. or Glück im Unglück. Sorry if I sound like a truism automaton. Feel free to ask for help if you ever need it though..
Ms. Daisy Cutter, 66
Which is why I thank the nonexistent gods every day that MSNBC hired Rachel Maddow (happy happy happy dance)
David M., 74
At my Gymnasium, it was like this:
– year 5 through 9: du
– year 10: du, unless requested by the students
– year 11 through 13: Sie, unless waived by the students (usually when the teacher had taught most of the students in year 9 or 10
You see, most of the tenth graders didn’t want to be called Sie, probably for similar reasons. But that teacher was just an asshole.
It was in a fieldwork simulation class. We would work with a language consultant from Syria under the pretense that no-one ever had described the grammar of Syrian Arabic before. So we didn’t learn the script.
– [q] was not particularly hard to pronounce, but I just loved being able to produce a uvular plosive. You don’t get many languages that have that as a distinct phoneme.
– [ʕ] and [ħ], epiglottal fricatives, where. Though [ʕ] was probably more like an approximant (I wasn’t in charge of the phonology section). But [ħ] was a voiced epiglottal fricative, and we had been warned in phonetics production class that overpractice of epiglottal sounds could actually lead to glottis inflammation (that is to the non-native speaker!). I went back to my phonetics production teacher and asked for advice on how to produce the sound, and he told me to put my finger into the throat until I felt the “vomit reflex”. Then remove the finger while remembering that articulatory configuration.
So as I said, the joys of Arabic class…
That’s no excuse, since it will be available on the internet for one week after it airs (and it’s on only once every week).
If you like political satire, Extra 3 and Neues aus der Anstalt are also available through iTunes.
Theophontes, 123
Do you have a website where you can easily enter those? Google Maps does not understand and I don’t have access to a GIS system right now…
Sili, 228
That bad, eh?
chigau, 240
Yeah, looks like a keeper. And you learn useful things watching it like how to produce penicilin when in a pinch.
Rev. BigDumbChimp
Is it worth watching?
FACEBOOK
David M., 74
rorschach, 81
It would be an account that would have nothing to do with work. Should be OK. Some Pharyngulating is happening on FB right, that PET thing sounds interesting.
EUROPEAN REGISTRATION LAWS
changeable moniker, 73
Interesting. So the UK already has strayed from Anglo-Saxon way of Freeedoomm..
David M., 74
Interesting. Though after checking some other European countries (based on Wiki though, take with grain of salt), I still think one can detect a Continental tendency towards compulsory registration:
– France: national ID, based on documents like the electricity bill mentioned by you.
– Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Hungary, Iceland, : compulsory registration with municipal authorities
– Portugal: no register
So what’s the difference between a national ID and a Personalausweis?
US ELECTORAL SYSTEM
David M., 74
LM, 322
Yeah I was aware that Maine and Nebraska already did this. In the context of presidential elections, however, trying to change the rules for California alone would rightly be interpreted as an attempt to deprive the Dems of some electors.
I do realise though that LM’s suggestion was more for the election of Congress and state parliament, but I see a risk of getting these two issues conflated, which could lead to an easy defeat of the measure.
LM, 322
Ah yes I remember the legal situation of electors is a mess, with every state having different regulations. Probably a Supreme court case would be helpful to bring some clarity into what is allowed and what is not..
RACISM
theophontes, 346
I thought Japanese were the honorary whites and the Chinese and Indians the “honorary coloureds”, I guess I got my Apartheid history wrong, or confused it with Texas. I heard some interesting stories from Japanese Texans about asking the KKK if they were fine with Japanese people settling in town. They apparently also brought rice to Texas, and got the seed from the Imperial Palace.
Ms. Daisy Cutter, 356
This is interesting. The German equality law though forbids discrimination according to race and ethnic origin, so all bases are covered I guess. Regarding the issue of racism/discrimination based on nationality though I also find troubling that many people don’t get the power imbalance thing. So the German youth minister is on record (it was also her pet issue when she was just an MP) saying that more has to be done about Germanophobia exhibited by all these kids of foreign kids who call Germans “potato” before beating them up.
…I am attempting to read the Kent Hovind thread and I am getting confused.
*examines cup used at dinner*
I don’t think I put anything special in here…
Hey everybody! I’ve been following along reading the thread but I’m effectively threadrupt, I guess. I’m recovering from Captain Trips or some shit. For now, I’ll just stick to conga rats for those who’re celebrating something and comforting pats for those who’re going through something difficult.
Hey, kristinc.
Better than Captain Trots, no?
[pedant]
pelamun,
In English that is ambiguous, but I suspect (without looking at German legislation) that your ‘and’ is actually meant as an inclusive disjunction rather than as a conjunction.
Yes … if they’re mutually exclusive.
Oh, kristinc :|
Fuckin’ Captain Trips. Miserable. I wish I had time to read The Stand again…
*comforting pats back*
Pelamun,
No, it’s an injoke. House of Cards is excellent. Though I’ve never seen the end.
I don’t have teh skillz to make this work, and it’s likely a stupid idea, but hear me out:
The recent discussion on WEIT showing that Catholic theologians aren’t allowed to reïnterpret their faith led me for God knows what time to The Catholic Encyclopaedia. And once again the article linked to one heresy after another.
This is what led me to thinking. Given how many Christians/Catholics pick and choose what parts of the official dogma they want to follow, shouldn’t it be possible to set up an internet test/quiz checking their choices against a list of heresies? It could even be an app to counter annoying evangelists: Ask them a simple list of questions, and get your smartphone to tell you what kind of heretic they are.
Daze:
No, the yellow fever book I was thinking of was The American Plague by Molly Caldwell Crosby… nonfiction, rather than the (admittedly interesting sounding) novel at your link. I seem to have been wrong about the awards, though: While nominated for a handful of booksellers’ awards, it wasn’t mentioned for anything as prestigious as the National Book Award or Pulitzer. I think I had it mashed up in my head with another historical book I read at about the same time.
***
To break up an otherwise wretched Sunday at the office, I had a delightful dinner with the Horde’s own Carlie and her family. To those of you who might not already know this, I can report that they’re excellent company!
Now, off to get what will be more of a nap than a night’s sleep before returning to the
grindstoneoffice….You know what? I’m incredibly fucking sick of Encolpius and his flaccid penis!
…Sorry, everybody. I just had to say it.
(Masculine inadequacy is the topic of the paper I’m writing.)
sumo!
すもう!
相撲!
streaming live!!!!
Sili, using the CE ain’t worth much.
If you want authoritativeness, you need to refer to the Vatican.
(FWIW, all Catholics swear to obey the Pope, though many don’t realise they’ve done so)
Sikivu Hutchinson comments on the American Atheists’ slavery billboard.
Daniel Fincke quotes Sikivu; no new content there but that thread will also have some idiots.
I hope John Morales has already gotten his defenses of racism out of his system for the month.
There’s no racism to defend, ॐ.
I never got the impression from reading any of the books that Lu Yu (his real name) was dumb, or was thought to be dumb by anyone else. He’s the one narrating, of course, and while he does denigrate his own intelligence, it seems obvious to me that that is only because of his inexperience, and because of the contrast with the hyperintelligent (and very experienced) company he keeps.
And, perhaps, the orientalist trope of personal self-denigration.
(Not to be confused with Lù Yǔ (陆羽), the eminent author of The Classic of Tea…)
John, if you want to have that argument, you could try doing it honestly. Go back to the Pharyngula thread and address the multiple explanations of why the billboard was racist. You failed to do this, and further compounded your contemptibility by outright lying that Rutee had “yet to say anything about this billboard.”
All I was really hoping is that you’d gotten all your defenses of racism out of your system. If you don’t, I hope you’ll confine them to the Pharyngula thread instead of running off to make black activists’ work even harder.
ॐ, I responded to you here since here is where dropped my name.
(You’ve also confused my response to flib with my response to Rutee, so I forgive you your accusation)
—
As for the explanations, I’ve read them, and I disagree.
I really have nothing further to offer, other than to correct myself: when I wrote “There’s no racism to defend”, what I meant (and what I should’ve written) is “I see no racism to defend in that billboard”.
(Not that I would, since I don’t approve of it)
I’m aware.
Ah, so I did. Sorry about that. You did still fail to address the multiple explanations of why it was racist.
Without attempting to publicly engage those explanations, it’s far more likely that you’ll end up being wrong than if you had put in the extra thought necessary to engage.
From my vantage point, your behavior is indistinguishable from disputing rationality.
ॐ, if you really want an argument with me, make your case ab initio, either here or there; if not, don’t.
(You should by now have learnt I don’t like it when people try to push my buttons, though I suppose I can’t blame you for trying)
My case is already clearly made back on that older thread. What I find lazy and disingenuous is your dismissal without engagement of every argument therein about racism.
The reason I pushed your buttons here was to distract you from taking your defenses of racism over to yet another thread on the matter. If you’re not inclined to do that, then it’s not a big deal to me either way.
ॐ, it is you who ostensibly abandons rationality when you characterise my lack of agreement with some claim about something as defending that something.
(You sure you want me to believe your characterisation is not disingenous?
Because, if so, I’ve over-estimated your rationality)
That’s silly shit, John.
For instance, nobody who isn’t disingenuous has any trouble understanding that denial of the Holocaust is defense of the Holocaust.
HI there
Just spent 5 hours of my life going from my GP to the kids’ paediatrician with a detour via MCDonalds (It will take at least an hour here, do you want to come back then?)
Now I have two more packs of antibiotics and my hopes high that I will feel better by tomorrow.
Nutmeg, #369: Fair enough; I think it’s entirely reasonable to warn about common triggers.
Giliell, #370: “Go play in traffic” has been an Americanism to that effect since before I was a kid.
Are people supposed to play with something poisonous while on the Autobahn? Wouldn’t critters of any sort be scarce/dead on a high-speed road?
Consciousness Razor, try rereading my comment, kthx. If you have to be protected from “violent rhetoric” that is about as realistic as a Warner Bros. cartoon, you have my condolences, and that’s about it.
Oh, and by the way, I’ve had friends who committed suicide, too. Four of them. And I’ve attempted it. Your moral high horse, please to be getting off it.
Because it’s fun.
Gute Besserung, Giliell.
I’ve been staying out of the “go die in a fire” debate for several reasons (mainly because I personally don’t use that kind of language) but it seems that the German phrase would be
“Geh auf die Autobahn und spiel mit was Giftigem”
a variant seems to be
“Geh und spiel mit was Giftigem”
so maybe the “go play with something poisonous” was first and then it got mixed up with the American “go play in traffic” thing.
Though hard to say without more extensive research…
John,
Here’s the thing about racism:
If you are not part of the oppressed group, you have to defer to the oppressed group when they say that something is racist.
Why?
Two reasons. Firstly, it’s easy for even the most well-meaning anti-racist white person to not really get what it means to be a PoC. Therefore, it is easy for said well-meaning anti-racist white person to “not see” that something racist is, in fact, racist.
Secondly, there is a history of white people denying that racism exists, or is that bad in this country. A long and ugly history. Many of these white people did so out of malice, many others did so out of blindness (see point #1). However, these two motivations can be difficult to dissect from each other without knowing the speaker very well.
Accordingly, if a PoC says that such and such is racist, it is best not to argue that it isn’t, because it is more probable that it is and you’re just not seeing it. Also, by arguing, you make yourself look like an ass (and a bad ally, and – here’s the kicker – a racist).
Is this fair? Don’t white people have opinions, and don’t we deserve to speak them? Aren’t there PoC who are irrational and willing to blame every little thing as racist?
Yep. Doesn’t change a damn thing.
It isn’t fair. It never is fair. But here’s the thing – racism isn’t fair.
^ What Esteleth said.
There are insights you can get from lived experience that are nearly impossible to get any other way. Some acquire them through empathy, but that is not common. Our society militates against it.
I don’t always agree with every PoC opinion on what constitutes racism. PoC themselves disagree. That said — except in situations complicated by other forms of oppression, which is a long discussion in and of itself — I am more than happy to leave it up to PoC to police the definition of racism as it works in their own societies.
This. QFT.
Sure, but occasionally they survive.
You minimize risks if they play with something poisonous at the same time :)
I’m not sure if the “Autobahn” part is derived from the American “go play in traffic”.
Seems unlikely to me since it’s not a recent addition and by the time it was added English/American English didn’t have that much influence on German yet, but I’m just guessing here.
On the other hand, it’s pretty obvious that playing in traffic/ on the Autobahn is inherently dangerous, so it could well have developed independently in different languages
Jesus Christ, I’m starting to think the NYPD should be prosecuted under the RICO Act.
One of their cops decided to help out a number of crime victims who felt that the police bureaucracy “seemed to have purposely been set up to make it hard to report serious crimes.” Which it was: “[M]ore than 100 retired police commanders told researchers that intense pressure for annual crime reductions had led some officials to manipulate statistics.”
His reward?
Last week, Schoolcraft was vindicated by an internal investigation, but he’d been suspended without pay for two years.
The Village Voice also reports that
I am behind on The Thread again. This is happening too often these days. But I did have a real-live version yesterday, because I got to meet Bill Dauphin! I had a great time and he was wonderful in person, just as all the Pharyngulites I’ve met have been. Now I have to dig out from under the remnants of last week’s to-do list, start on this week’s, and hopefully catch up with threadness sometime…
I found a grey hair on my head this morning.
I went D: D: D:
Then I realized that the texture and length were all wrong.
It was cat hair.
*facepalm*
@ pelamun
[apropriation] Here are two examples of apropriation from South Africa in the eighties (it is sometimes easier to see things in hindsight):
Juluka (link to picture, Link to music video) where a mixed race band. The lead singer was a white jewish guy called Johnny Clegg who wrote and sang in English and Zulu. They were actually quite instrumental in bringing Zulu music into the mainstream and getting a multiracial message across.
The second band is éVoid ( picture here, video here). The group was completely lilly-white. They essentially rejected their own (admittedly rather dull and oppressive) upbringing and embraced a culture of their own invention (though based on broadly African influences, from Ndebele to Egyptian). They put themselves into exile to avoid conscription into the army (a good idea given their anti-apartheid attitudes).
I just finished reading the PUA thread. I forbore to leave another comment because it seems to have died down and I didn’t want to encourage Riding to continue whining, but… sweet salty FSM. Arguing with him is like trying to debate the solidity of the walls with someone on a bad acid trip. Can you imagine a conversation between Riding and Daniel Haven?
One bible quote I am still very fond of might work
“Let we who are strong lend a shoulder to those who are not”
Well, if you’re willing to quote Karl Marx, you could use “Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen.”
(From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.)
Ms Daisy Cutter
Generally the trend was according to a scale of both whiteness (applied locally, often cruelly splitting up communities as some people where slightly lighter or darker) and perceived (how the fuck did they decide?) levels of “civilization”. Apartheid claimed “separate but equal” as the driving concept, but obviously this was (as it still is in the US, think gay marriage) simply a ruse to hide guilt over the iniquity of the system. Link to Hendrik Verwoerd explaining how it works.
@ pelamun (& sili)
Co-ordinates of Great Wall. Can’t send now, will try tomorrow.
Nothing as simple as that. It really was confused and arbitrary. The institutionalised discrimination started early on. Chinese where banned from settling in SA from the beginning of the 1900’s. Japanese did get the “honorary white” status before the Chinese … who where rather put out by it. On the other hand there weren’t any police who could differentiate anyhow. Also IIRC Taiwanese had special status. *mindboggle*
It remains complicated. (Link)
I’m really, really glad that Mr and I could never agree on some decent, more expensive living room furniture.
I will not be too sad if we declare the present one to be firewood in afew years time once our kids have learned that we don’t fucking paint on cupboards
And no, dear kid, you’re not being opressed because mummy just confiscated the pencil…
Esteleth
There#s one very prominent grey hair on the head of my 4yo :D
Possible example tell me if this is wrong or not:
If you want to write a native American character, do your research, pick one of the cultures and write them like that. Don’t do what Star Trek Voyager did and make the native a composite Indian who is from the Amazon I beleive, has vision quests and dream catchers and basically any other vague trope or cultural idea that has been picked up by osmosis from ANY tribe.
<music>
Sometimes you wanta go
Where ev’rybody knows your ‘nyyyym,
And the discourse isn’t priiiiiim.
You wanna be where you can see
Fundies rent limb from liiiimb
You wanna be where ev’rybody knows your ‘nym.
</music>
:)
–
LALALALALALALA!
Sorry, Josh; can’t hear you.
–
I saw a clip from it on Jon Stewart. Julianne Moore does a very convincing Palin in it. Scary!
–
I salute their noble sacrifice, destroying the Evil before it has the chance to bring down Civilisation As We Know It.
–
‘Cause Religion, which always gets a pass on abuse.
–
+1
(Well, in my case the dancing would have to be metaphorical, but no less heart felt.)
–
New Age Quasi-Norse Runes. Native. American. Tarot.
–
@ Ms Daisy Cutter
Hell yeah! The breakaway Pharyngulite People’s Republic of South TET is always keen to host intellectual debates.
I’d rather not.
I like the other phrase because it is phrased not as a demand for hand out or cry from bellow but one of solidarity of the speaker saying “let each of us do what we can to help”.
Been playing ME3. If anyone knows a way to do a Team Game together and wants to let me know.
Totally random:
Yesterday late afternoon, approaching sunset, I was out wandering* around town. I decided to walk past the wonderfully-styled city hall as part of my journey, and as I approached, I noticed a man who appeared to be hiding under a jacket.
Turns out he was setting up a Hasselblad medium format digital camera to take a shot (or maybe 2) of the city hall in the light. I have to admit the scene was pretty (and I’ll probably go back to get shots of my own at some point), but my internal camera geek triggered. I got caught between “photography squee!” and not wanting to bother him since he was obviously working diligently, so I just stood back and watched a few minutes as he played with it.
Nothing like watching someone use a $25k piece of photographic equipment.
Giliell: I got my first gray hair at age 10. It stayed lonely for many years.
Hey, Cicely, my PEAS are growing nicely again! :D
Theophontes, #426: Do not summon dark forces which you do not understand.
This suggested project approaches the greatness of the Lego Testament or the LOLcat Bible.
My house smells—nay, reeks—of Lysol.
And so does the office.
I hate the smell of Lysol.
–
It is just too sucky a day to further ruin it with peas; Daylight Savings Time, Monday, and high pollen counts taken together add up to a Trifecta of Terribleness. Accordingly, I will be averting my eyes from any mentions of the Vile Vegetable until sometime after all this Monday nonsense has gone away.
–
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2012/03/the-damning-backstory-behind-homeless-hotspots-at-sxswi/
OK, some thoughts on the Orientalism issue. Before I address some individual posts, first some general ideas.
First: I’m not an expert on this. My time on Pharyngula though has helped me reflect on these issues a lot and the discussions I’ve been having with my friend about imperialism and post-colonialism have been enlightening. In a way, though, they have also helped me articulate some of my feelings of alienation or confusion when previously confronted with examples of orientalism or exoticisation in general.
ORIENTALISM
Michel Foucault: as far as his work concerns the relationship between power and knowledge, it is relevant to the debate. I’m not too familiar with his vast work, but it seems that he does not specifically address the question in a post-colonial framework, but others like Said have applied his work in such a manner. But I found a quote in Truth and power that might come close
Edward Said: of course coined (or rather redefined) the term Orientalism and wrote the book with the same title (1978). Also, Culture and imperialism (1993)
But not even Said says that no westerner could write on non-western culture. In his Afterword added to Orientalism in 1995, he writes:
Also in a different book I found a Said quote that while he asserted that members of one culture are apt to create stereotypes about another, he explicitly denied that “only women can understand feminine experience, only Jews can understand Jewish suffering, only formerly colonial subjects can understand colonial experiences”.
According to my friend, he is also “obsessed with Conrad’s Heart of Darkness“, and as far as I understand, his assessment of Conrad is ambivalent. He sees positive things in Conrad’s portrayal of Africa as well as negative. But I haven’t read that his 1995 book yet.
There are also two other scholars who together with Said are said to make up the “post-colonian trifecta”: Homi K. Bhabha and Gayatri Chakavorty Spivak.
Robert J.C. Young has written on the white mythologies in the context of postcolonialism (also regarding most of Marxist historiography as taking a Eurocentric if anti-capitalist perspective). Probably in this context, his book Colonial descire: Hybridity in Theory, Culture and Race (1995) is most relevant, in that book in chapter 7, Colonialism and the desiring machine he discusses the works of Said, Bhabha and Spivak, among others.
CULTURAL APPROPRIATION
According to Cultural appropriation and the arts by James O. Young, one can roughly distinguish three types of cultural appropriation:
1. object appropriation: concrete objects of art. Any transaction between involving a concrete object of art. Can refer to legal purchases as well as illegal pillaging (there are also grey area cases, but I’ll disregard them because this type of appropriation is not the thrust of this post).
2. content appropriation: the reuse of content from another culture. This can be a composition, a story, a poem etc. Sometimes this is less than an “entire expression of an artistic idea”, in which case this can be called style appropriation. An even more indirect type of content appropriation is motif appropriation. In this case, an artist appropriates ideas from an artistic tradition other than their own, but the artwork is not in the style of that culture. Example, Picasso appropriating ideas from African carving in Les Demoiselles d’Avignon (1907)
3. subject appropriation: this is basically when outsiders represent in their art individuals or institutions from another culture. Joseph Conrad is one example.
The author says the term subject appropriation is a misnomer because artists ultimately only represent their own experiences, not those of their culture. While this is technically correct, I note that in his book, James Young largely ignores the question of power imbalances and cultural dominance (save for a section on minority cultures being appropriated by the majority culture).
Now, the definition alone shows that cultural appropriation need not necessarily be a negative thing. Cultures have always influenced each other, and a lot of what’s falls under content appropriation is a consequence of this. In a way, I think, fantasy worlds could also be subsumed under content appropriation, because the artist does not claim to create a narrative for a real existing people. So it’s not subject appropriation. It can still be harmful if it transports racial stereotypes, or is just poor art (an example would be a white jazz musician playing jazz poorly, but being noticed more because of their race could give jazz a bad name).
James Young argues against the claim that subject appropriation could be harmful in the case of a good and knowledgeable artist can accurately represent a culture that is no their own and thus generate more interest in that culture, allowing everyone to profit. This was also comparable to my own position before I talked to my friend about it. Essentially this ignores the question of cultural dominance.
It is still about the question, who gets to tell the story about non-western culture? We can have the best western story-tellers with the richest of experiences, but it’s still their perspective, and their story. And if they are trusted all the more for their cultural knowledge of a non-western culture, this also amounts to a form of cultural dominance over it (as “authority on culture X”, they get to define the discourse about it). Of course, in a situation where otherwise there would not be anything available on culture X, a knowledgeable westerner would be better than a bigoted one. But we should keep in mind that it is an act of cultural appropriation that can deprive members of the portrayed culture of their chance of being heard.
But there is no easy guideline. The question of what culture is, and different time periods, art genres, art registers (high brow / low brow etc), dominance situations etc make this quite complicated.
I will address individual posts like by Alethea, David M., ruteekatreya, changeable moniker, theophontes in a later post, can’t promise when I’ll get to it. But please feel free to correct me. I mean I’m no lit major, I’m sure I got stuff wrong here.
(Probably also a bit more on the problem of translation, but a short answer: a translator translating a nonwestern book into a western language is less appropriating than a western writer who is writing a book from the perspective of a nonwestern culture)
Ing,
Many Native American groups have lots of things in common, though, so it would be difficult to try to write fiction about one culture. But I get your point.
Example of what? Representation? Appropriation? Pelamun, I think, discusses this in #434:
Pelamun also notes:
To me, though, it’s the attempt to take aspects of a culture as one’s own that’s “appropriation” in the negative sense, rather than just writing about a culture other than one’s own. But maybe I’m just not clear on how representing (i.e. writing about) a culture is appropriation that same way that 2012 Doomsdayers have appropriated things from other cultures?
Ugh.
What is so hard about this for people to get? I mean, really.
On another note: I got promoted at work today! So now, I make slightly more than minimum wage per hour (and by “slightly”, I mean “barely”)! Also, I’m starting some volunteering stuff at an archaeology lab tomorrow. Super excited!!!!
Peter Bergman of Firesign Theater died last Friday.
Peter? In The Next World You’re On Your Own … or … Give Me Immortality Or Give Me Death!
And yet another day that I’m reminder “we’re All Bozos On This Bus”.
Such as? Most of the time it seems to me you’re having the same problem as sayinhg “well Europeans have so much in common” and have an Italian talking about how much he loves to eat schnitzel while he wears his stripped shirt and beret and play Rugby. Because he is European you see.
Not only that, Ing, but really – Native Americans have more in common than not? So, you could totally take a Seminole person and stick them in Alaska and they’d be just fine?
There are tendencies of similar cultures, geographically speaking, but the only thing (functionally) that unites Native Americans is that name itself – they are the indigenous people of North America.
The Mayans were basically the same as the Iroquois, right?
Likewise Iroquois and Cherokee?
Squigit,
yes, just to be precise
I was referring to content appropriation, as opposed to subject appropriation. Arguably, subject appropriation is more harmful…
Wow, that came across as pure gibberish on my part. Woo!
Even if you pick a narrow geographic region, in a narrow time range (because that is also relevant), there will DEFINITELY be detectable, noticeable differences between groups. I mean, both the Seneca and Cayuga tribes live in upstate NY, speak similar languages (similar dialects of the same language, even), have similar religious practices, and are politically united into the Haudenosaunee League (together with four other tribes), but they are still, nonetheless two distinct groups. And those differences are significant – and if you want to accurately depict someone from one group or the other, it behooves the author to research this stuff.
It may be acceptable, in some cases, to just refer to the whole supergroup by their common name, the Iroquois, in order to contrast them with some other nearby group (such as the Algonquin). But that is only in some cases.
If the story is about a person who is from one of the Six Nations and the story features them interacting with their family, friends, and other members of the Six Nations, failing to acknowledge the nuances and differences between the Six is bad.
In keeping with your European analogy, Ing, it is one thing for someone from Milan to refer to themself as “European” while they are visiting the US. But inside Europe, they’re Italian – and inside Italy they’re a Lombard, or Milanese. Inside Milan, they would refer to their neighborhood, and inside their neighborhood to the local landmarks – or possibly as so-and-so’s son/daughter/husband/wife/brother/sister.
Ing!!1 I’m fretting because I don’t know if you saw these PDFs. Please ACK.
Squigit, congrats on the promotion, be it ever so humble. :)
–
Native American peoples had no inter-tribal anomosities or rivalries. All one happy Kumbaya brotherhood.
*
*
*
(Somebody wanta help me get my tongue back outa my cheek?)
–
Here, cicely.
*pulls out tongue-extracting pliers*
Open wide.
*Aaaaahhhhh!*
Thanks, Esteleth!
:D
–
No prob, cicely.
:D
*cleans and sterilizes pliers, then packs them away*
Hmm, maybe I should take these over to the Ouch thread and use these to extract Certain People’s™ heads from their asses.
Nah, too small.
*pulls out sledgehammer and pruning shears*
These’ll do.
David “There Is No Spoon” Atkins on Hullabaloo: Shut up about your reproductive rights, whiny U.S. bitches, because you could have it a lot worse.
Of course. It’s not like feminists ever take a global perspective. Or like U.S. women have a lot better chance changing misogynist policy here than we do in Afghanistan.
Also, rape by the state is “minor.” Because nobody’s shoving a dildo-sized medical device up any of Atkins’ orifices, I guess. Thanks for reminding me why I don’t read DailyKos anymore, asshole.
Cultural identity is complicated. I’m not that familiar with Native American identity, but I know anthropologists working on the topic in SE Asia. Even within the same ethnic group, villages and lineages and so forth can become important and be used to differentiate identities, and depending on context the in-group/out-group changes. If you’re opposing a mining project, the entire populace of three districts becomes one in-group against the outside business interests, if it’s land issues between two villages, the village identity comes to the fore etc..
Esteleth: I was thinking along the lines of a jackhammer and the jaws of life.
That’s true even when they are your own. The worst thing I hate about gray hair is the texture and brittleness.
++++++++++++++
cicely, Cheers!
++++++++++++++
Uhh, whoever made the authentic baked bean, slow cooked over 8 hours? Yeah, sounds like a crock to me.
++++++++++++++
@ Richard Austin, I had a chance to buy a 3″x4″ large format Hasselblad analog camera in the 80’s. With enlarger, darkroom chemicals and appurtenances. For $750!
I had to turn it down because I couldn’t afford the film and over head. {wait … 1 … 2 …3}
Very true, pelamun.
Depending on where I am in the world and my knowledge of the other person, I may cheerfully assent or vehemently deny that I am a Yankee.
Because in one sense, I am (I am American), but in another I am not (I am not from New England).
Sailor, is that a touch of jealousy (wrt beans) I detect?
Crock-pots are glorious things.
If you want, I can give you the recipe.
Point taken. It was my fault for failing to adequately and clearly write what I was thinking of and for making it seem like I was saying “all Indians live in teepees”.
This similarity among cultures in geographic regions is what I was thinking of but failed to communicate (and no, I don’t mean “all Southwest groups are exactly the same, therefore, Navajo=Hopi”).
Oh, sorry. My mistake.
Identity is both relational and fluid. Even cultural identity.
Thanks, cicely. :)
I’m sorry my posts seem to be a mess, it’s very, very difficult for me to take what’s in my head and put it into words…it’s almost like a brick wall forms around my brain and prevents any thoughts from clearly coming out when I try to write them down…I can’t help it.
Daze (@415):
You likely already know this, but This American Life also covered the Adrian Schoolcraft story. Terrifying.
Dang, I hope Tpyos is satisfied with my offerings today. I seem to have left a tpyo in almost every post. Need Grog!
Nerd, grog and chocolate chip cookies will be coming out of your USB shortly.
Estheleth,
there is one crucial difference to your Yankee thing or to the Milan thing, though: in the case of SE Asia (and probably other colonised areas), some of the identities were constructed by the coloniser.
So let’s say we have a region with a number of villages that are similar culturally and linguistically (and dialect chains can extend over a long stretch). They did not necessarily have a common identity, usually it would be by settlement and lineage etc. Now, the coloniser comes in and sets up administrative districts etc, and the locals become “people of district X” = “the X people”.
I suspect some of this might also be at play with Native Americans, but I wouldn’t pretend to know, so I’ll just throw it out there.
Since I make the grog, already in hand. Chocolate chip cookies will be welcomed though.
One side effect of the Redhead’s problems has been me losing 25 lbs since the first of the year due to changes in eating habits. I need a new belt.
I woke up this morning to several text messages and FB messages saying that another anti-choice group was on campus, so we organized and mobilized the people from the last counter-demonstration to get out there and give out factual information and such. They’re going to be on campus again tomorrow.
Those sneaky assholes! They scheduled this shit the day after spring break and didn’t let anyone know on campus know that they’d be there so that we wouldn’t be as effective at counter-demonstrating. Well, we fucking showed them. Also, they were sponsored by the fucking college republicans. (I never say just “college republicans”. It’s always “the fucking college republicans”.)
Oh, absolutely, pelamun. Agree with that 100%.
WRT Native Americans, IANAE, but to my knowledge the attitude of TPTB was, “They’re Injuns. Kill ’em.” If they acknowledged differences in the groups, they didn’t much dwell on it.
That said, the attitude of the government today (such as the BIA) is more nuanced and largely cedes to the tribes themselves WRT identity and membership.
The only issue that I know about WRT your example of an outside group drawing lines in North America is with regards to the Haudenosaunee, who live in both upstate NY and in Canada, directly across Lake Ontario. They (with good logic, from their perspective) view the international border that transects their land as artificial and ignore it. This pisses off both Washington and Ottawa, but they mostly ignore it (Haudenosaunee issues are insufficiently important to register). But there was an issue last year or maybe the year before where a group of Haudenosaunee were to travel to the UK. They carried Six Nations passports, and were not allowed to leave – because they should (in the eyes of Washington and Ottawa) carry US or Canadian passports, as appropriate to the person. They protested – they are, after all, a sovereign nation, and they didn’t have US or Canadian passports.
Hilary Clinton stepped in, and in a gesture of magnanimity, offered to issue them (in her authority as SecState) emergency US passports, effective immediately, so that they could travel. Neatly ignoring the issue, from the perspective of the Haudenosaunee, but a fix from the perspective of Washington and Ottawa (and London, for that matter).
I’ll send a double batch of cookies in that case, Nerd.
How’s the Redhead doing, if you don’t mind me asking?
Squigit 435,
This both looks like subject appropriation to me.
I mean you are not just appropriating the calendar as a model for your own calendar (which would be content appropriation), but because at the same time you are also (implicitly) claim that your calendar authentically represents Mayan culture. That would probably be worse than a writer representing a culture other than their own….
Still not recovered enough to come home. The goal for rehab is walking with a walker or cane, but the leg needs more “connections” for them to work with. But it is improving very slowly.
North America is a very large place.
The experiences of the indigenous peoples were very different, depending on location.
Unless we just go to the bottom line which rhymes with “attempted genocide”.
I’m glad to hear that the Redhead is improving, albeit slowly, Nerd.
Good thoughts to you both.
___
Chigau, I once got in a shouting match with someone when I (not expecting an argument) referred to the treatment of the Native Americans as an act of genocide.
This person was willing to agree that it was a mass slaughter, and that it was motivated by race. But genocide? No, absolutely not. The US government does not perpetrate genocide! They’re good.
The US government, that is.
US = good. Genocide = bad.
Ergo, US =/= genocide.
*facepalm*
pelamun,
So would you consider ethnography to be appropriation?
Esteleth
It could also depend on what one means by “genocide”.
Actual slaughter of humans of a certain culture or
Residential Schooling the culture out of a bunch of children.
@pelamun:
Please don’t exert yourself on my behalf. :) That was a bit of a drunkenpost, and since on weekdays I can only skim TET, I’d probably miss it. :-/
Chigau, I will point out that both of the things you cite happened.
Well, I can say one good thing about the troll on the Ouch thread, xe has inspired me to make a bunch of pork pies this weekend.
Ms. Daisy Cutter @ 447
Your quote mining of Atkin’s post is Brietbarting what he said.
You managed to yada, yada, yada over that part with ellipses.
I encourage others to read Atkin’s full post and see if they come to the same conclusion that the hopping land mine came to.
Do you have a good pork pie recipe, AR?
I will trade it for the recipe for “hobo bread” (or slow-cooked baked beans, if you prefer) if you do.
Esteleth: Yeah, I’ve got an ancient recipe from the same book I got the liver and kidney aspic recipe from. Best pork pie I’ve ever tasted. I’ll email my aunt for it and post ASAP. Baked beans sound quite good.
Esteleth
Oh my yes.
But is it worser™ to kill someone or to “merely” completely fuck them up?
…those don’t come as disparate choices. To the victim, often, submitting to being fucked up is how one avoids being killed. The haters usually don’t make any particular distinction between victims that die versus those that go silent, except that it’s easier to disclaim responsibility if the victims kill themselves, or die from neglect. The uppity ones tend to get the killin’s.
Just watched a video detailing a method for the preparation of a Doritos Consommé. I found this to be concerning, and somewhat fiftiesish if the fifties had Doritos.
Sorry. My point being, whether it’s “worse” to be killed or fucked-up depends a lot on the victim’s POV and circumstances. I’m not sure it’s a valid question from the oppressor’s viewpoint, or from a supposedly clinical outside perspective. For instance, I can think of lots of times I’d rather have died than been abused, and I wasn’t ever genocided upon.
…aaand I should’ve just stayed away for my own sake. *headshake*
Okie, A.R.
Slow cooked baked beans in the style of the Esteleth-kin:
Ingredients:
2 cups dry beans (use Great Northern or Jacob’s Cattle beans for best results)
1 small white onion
1/4 cup butter or margarine
2 teaspoons of salt
2 tablespoons dark brown sugar
1/4 cup molasses
1/4 teaspoon dry mustard
1/2 teaspoon Worcestershire sauce
Directions:
Rinse beans, then cover with water and let soak 6-8 hours. Drain, then recover. Bring to boil and simmer 10-15 minutes or until skin of beans peels off when gently blown on.
Pour beans and the water of the boiling into pot with all other ingredients. Stir.
If using crock-pot, cook at least 8 hours on the “low” setting, uncovering in the last hour.
If using bean crock in oven, bake 6-8 hours at 250 F.
Serve with hot dogs, Polish sausage, sweet bread, or whatever is desired. Especially good with “hobo bread.”
Hobo bread:
Ingredients:
2.5 cup whole wheat flour
2 teaspoons baking soda
1 teaspoon salt
2 cups buttermilk
1/2 cup molasses
(optional: 1 cup raisins or chopped nuts)
Mix all ingredients well. Pour into either 1 standard sized greased bread loaf pan or 2 standard sized greased coffee cans. Bake 45 minutes at 350 F. Serve warm.
Esteleth: That sounds incredibly good. I have a Christmas (Plum) pudding recipe as well that I’ll give you as you gave me both recipes.
Aw, thanks A.R.!
I have no fucking clue why that is called “hobo bread,” but it is made of teh awesome.
I forgot to ask if you were ok with Imperial measurements or if you needed metric conversions. I couldn’t remember if you were a Yank or not.
Totally bankrupt except for this:
A. R:
Are you kidding me? That sounds absolutely fucking delicious.
OM NOM NOM.
Esteleth: I’m ok with both (lab work and all). I’m actually something of and odd American, as my family’s been in the US since the 1600’s, but we’ve managed to behave more like British people for some reason (Thus my recipes).
Audely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&list=UUI9dGhdza3qupiV0mVNO97A&v=cppOojKBNko
Pteryxx
The contrast between “dead” and “fucked up” is logistic.
Is it better to have wide open spaces with a pile of rotting corpses or
a bunch of surly Others™ who may or may not make good servants?
….aaand I’m off this topic, too.
Cicely, try looking up the original use of Lysol.
You will have a physical reaction.
Esteleth
Your baked bean recipe is very close to mine!
It went to the last pot-luck with great success.
-there were no left-overs, I had tinned soup when I came home :(
@ janine
Every time I hear or see the word “lysol” I can’t help but think of its original use D:
Horrifying, Starstuff, isn’t it.
Bill, #454: Yeah, I saw that link repeatedly in the NYT thread, but I haven’t had a chance to listen yet. Readers warned that the audio of Schoolcraft being dragged off to the psych hospital was chilling.
Esteleth, #465:
I despair.
The Sailor, #472: No, I didn’t “quotemine it,” thank you. His correct observation that Santorum and the Taliban are exactly alike doesn’t override his concern-trolling of American women that we shouldn’t be paying so much attention to our own rights. I have no fucking idea why that sentiment even belongs in a post about Afghanistan. Has he ever suggested that poor Americans should stop whining because they have it better than poor Afghans do? Didn’t think so.
Also, “Breitbarted” him? Fuck you.
Note to self: It doesn’t matter if it was a bad day or not, raw brownie batter is a bad idea.
Sometimes I think I must be ectothermic. Mild food poisoning and all, my body temperature is still 97.1F. No wonder I feel crummy. (And yes, my thyroid hormone levels are normal. I’m just cold-blooded, apparently.)
Happy Anniversary Caine and Mr. Caine! Here’s to yet more years of being happily together!
————————————–
Gillel:
*quick check to make sure no one is around, clears throat*
FREEEEDOOOOOOOOOOM!
/Braveheart
Best to you and your family. Hope you find a few more pieces of yourself soon.
——————————————
Genocide – yes, the treatment of the Native Americans qualified. We don’t try to kill them en masse anymore, but some like the more insidious method of forbidding the use of native languages, particularly in school, as someone posted about in an earlier ep of TET. Different tactic, and I’m sure some have in mind the same goal as those who slaughtered whole camps full of people did.
——————————————–
Writing about a culture/creating a character from a culture you weren’t born into: Can’t be said enough – RESEARCH. Every scrap of information you can find, take note, follow it, and it might lead to more. See how other authors have done the same, did they succeed or not, are their stories and characters believable enough. Double-check your info, hell, triple-check.
It’s not an easy process – I have a story (unfinished) from many years ago which takes place in a Navajo village, and I couldn’t even guess how many hours I spent hunting online, looking for any bit of information about the culture, dress, ceremonies, that seemed reliable. Looking back, the library would have also been a good choice. I used to have a whole folder of bookmarks purely for the story, but I probably deleted them when I stopped using the attic computer. But it was, for me, lots of fun in the end, this hunt for what I needed to know. If the subject is that you find very interesting, maybe the process will be fun for you as well.
————————————————-
Best wishes to Redhead and Nerd. Even a slow recovery is still good news. And don’t forget the tennis balls for the cane/walker :P.
Well, it’s rather infuriating that this was an argument that actually happened, but still rather amusing when I misread your post as “shooting match.”
Aieee. My copy of Beck, Bertholle, and Child is spinning on its shelf!
Esteleth, nom, nom, nom on the beans recipe. I think, I’ll have to try it.
I have never been able to make pintos or navy or any white beans from dried beans. Set overnight, drain, rinse, soak again, drain, rinse, put in crockpot and simmer for 4 – 8 -16 – 24 hours, yep, still hardened beans. Now I just buy them precooked and add my ingredients for red chili or white chili.
Nutmeg: You keep your house at 97.5 degrees?
Clean out the kitchen risotto for dinner tonight. Not too shabby. Sausage, porchini, morel, lemon, thyme, truffle, parm, parsley.
Not really the best time of year for it in Charleston being that it’s 70ish, but still. I didn’t feel like going to the grocery store.
RevBDC: White or Perigord?