Thunderf00t has been getting threats from an angry Muslim who has been taking a shotgun approach to threaten and extort, and has actually been tossing around documents labeling his brother as Thunderf00t. So he has decided to give up his pseudonymity and reveal his actual identity: say hello to Phil Mason.
I guess he can’t be threatened with having his real name revealed now.
Oh snap.
I love Phil’s work. Here’s to standing up against hatred!
Dan Johnson, Urbana, Illinois, US
It was odd to see a comment thanking you for outing Thunderf00t, when there was no indication that you had done so.
It makes more sense now…
Glen Davidson
So thus this turn all followers of Thunderf00t into
“Free(of religion)masons”….
Just for giggles, sorry it had to come to this regarding TF pseudonymity
I was thinking.. how about an “I am Thunderfoot” campaign. but no matter.
Holy crap.
I have no doubt that some Muslims are sending him death threats. I’m not so sure the story has been accurately represented, as far as the Evil Muslim(tm) being hinted at….
And considering TF’s past exaggerations about Evil Muslim(tm), I’d take it with a grain of salt either way.
<g>
(Righteous, that)
Heck, the Bay Area Skeptics outed him back in July.
No relation. :)
I’m sure that’s No True Muslim threatening him and his brother. It’s disgusting how religions disown the rabid loonies while continuing to push their equally insane bullshit.
I haven’t thought about thunderf00t in years, but back when he first started posting videos he was an enormous influence on me. It’s good to see he’s still active online, though maybe this isn’t the best way for me to find that out.
I didn’t know it was a secret. Hello, Phil Mason!
Uh? I would have thought Thunderf00t was already known… how long can someone with relatively big youtube popularity, especially since it’s because of attacking fanatics, can last in pseudonymity?
I mean, he’s showed his face many times before. People found the lady who tossed a cat in a garbage bin in like a day, and couldn’t even see her face that well.
I would have thought Thunderf00t was already known
it wasn’t just his NAME that got dropped.
also, it wasn’t just HIS name that got dropped.
regardless, I read the comments on the youtube vid.
looked more like a bunch of 5 year olds arguing.
For some reason I was under the impression that his true identity was commonly known, but was apparently mistaken. Given that he’s been using his face for quite some time I doubt he’s been too worried about being identified.
I was quite a bit more surprised by the sudden announcement of potholer54s identity. I would’ve been interested to similarly see Thunderf00t give a bit more personal history in the process, but obviously the circumstances are different.
I preferred Xavier Lumens.
Uh… Phil has spewed a fair bit of outright hatred himself, like, Glenn-Beck-ish levels of it.
Don’t get me wrong, I love Tf00t’s science stuff, but while he was on his serious anti-muslim kick he was right up there with Jerry Falwell.
To me, he will always be Thunderf00t. Love your work :-)
Its a shame that those would break what once was a cardinal sin of the web…. I would be more then happy to offer a bounty on dawahflims personal info. Call me old fashion, but I still believe in an eye for an eye….
It’s too bad that people think that because some belief is a religious belief that it deserves a pass. Some people tend to think that because some ass hat preacher acted like an idiot and a bunch of crazy right wingers over reacted to a mosque or community center (or whatever the hell it was) that Islam gets a pass. I have to say NO. Now I have to make the disclaimer that not all Muslims are bad because if I didn’t someone would attack me. Not that I care you can say what you want it doesn’t mean a thing to me. Mr Mason is a public figure he isn’t going to please all of us all of the time. If he says something you don’t like, don’t watch it.
I’m glad that he’s been outed, personally… because now I can look up his work on Pubmed and WOW his stuff looks interesting! With all those first-author papers, he must be a Post-Doc. I have some very interesting reading to do now. Thanks PZ!
AbnormalWrench
Dawahfilms gloated about doing it.
TF was 100% right about the douche, and yet cognitive dissonance appears to be strong in the Dawah Defenders
You’ll always be Thunderf00t to me! Phwoar crikey!
Following in Dan j’s footsteps (#2) No more anonymous internet
-James Ellis, Tucson AZ, USA
Did Thunderf00t, er, I mean Phil, just bring ‘Anonymous’ into this? Hmmm. Dahwahfilms might want go move back into the cash based economy.
Maybe I misunderstand…
I’m another denizen of YouTube and I thought I’d stick my head above the parapet to give a slightly different take on what’s been going on.
My concern is that, in this video, Thunderf00t (I’m going to call him that; it suits him better than Philip Mason) appears to have misunderstood the sequence of events and mistakenly accused the YouTube user known as DawahFilms of a couple of things; I suspect that, as PZ and Ashley Paramore are in the same video and it’s been posted here, they might have the same misunderstandings.
Specifically, I do not believe that DawahFilms made Thunderf00t’s docs publicly available and I do not believe that DawahFilms made Thunderf00t’s family member’s docs publicly available, either.
I do hope that people reading this thread, and perhaps even you, PZ, will have another look. I’ll say plainly from the start that this is just from what I know, and so I may be missing parts of the picture here.
The disagreements (and, yes, I know that is stretching the word to and possibly past breaking-point) between Thunderf00t and DawahFilms go back some time. A lot of it is misunderstanding between two hotheads. I think one of the key misunderstandings comes from Thunderf00t’s reference to awakening a sleeping giant (watch this video from 4:15).
DawahFilms took this as a racist threat* and reacted with this video, which includes this at 7:14
Thunderf00t took this as a death threat; see this video.
There have been various spats and so on, but the most recent incident to note is the current one. Thunderf00t’s charge is that DawahFilms dropped Thunderf00t’s docs and the docs of ‘at least one other member of my family’. In his most recent video, Thunderf00t says
I do not believe this is the case. I am told that a video was uploaded by a YouTube user, jacky11991, in May of this year that gave out Thunderf00t’s name and so on; the method used to do that involved going through Facebook, which is where they found out the name of Thunderf00t’s brother. I believe that this may be where the misunderstanding appeared.
I have a copy of that video but I don’t intend to make it public.
I would add here that the way in was through a phone number associated with Thunderf00t’s PayPal account. In his video, DawahFilms referred to you as ‘Dr Phil’ but did not give out any further information.
I would make a couple of comments on Thunderf00t’s comments. Firstly, another part of the creed of Anonymous is that Anonymous is not your private army. Secondly, I hope that by fair game, and particularly with your reference to cruelty, that you are not intending for people to take actions of a similar nature to those taken by the organisation in whose opposition Anonymous came to prominence under a policy of the same name.
I am pretty sure that DawahFilms has looked in the past, unsuccessfully, for Thunderf00t’s docs.
DawahFilms did contact, as I understand it, Thunderf00t’s employer. I don’t want to get into the legal and moral details of this, not least because I’m pretty sure I don’t have all the information available. I will say that I think DawahFilms should not have contacted Thunderf00t’s employer, although perhaps Thunderf00t should not have been surprised that this would eventually happen; indeed, it seems he has some sort of arrangement with them.
Ordinarily, this would just be a scuffle on YouTube; however, the trifecta of Thunderf00t, HealthyAddict and Pharyngula mean that this will receive a lot of coverage; far more than DawahFilms’ side of the story. ‘With great power comes great responsibility’ and all that; DawahFilms (who is, by the way, a US citizen) has already had to have CAIR contact the FBI on his behalf. The potential for this to very negatively affect DawahFilms – based, so far as I can tell, on a partial reading of what’s happened – strikes me as unfair. As I said at the beginning, I hope that people will understand that there is more to the story than is presented here.
Just in the interests of full disclosure, I should probably say that, while I disagree with him on a lot of issues, I’m on good terms with DawahFilms; and that, while I agree with him on a lot of issues, I think Thunderf00t is an asshat. I don’t think either of them have behaved particularly well with respect to the other and, frankly, I wish they’d both stop talking to each other.
Anyway, that’s about it. I think the substance of the posted video is wrong, and that it is likely to have negative consequences for DawahFilms.
DLC.
* – Goodness, footnotes in a comment on a blog! I wanted to make clear that I think DawahFilms misunderstood what Thunderf00t said. While I think Thunderf00t could usefully spend some time learning more about Islam, comparative politics and social science methods before he does any more videos on those subjects, I’ve said, in public and on multiple occasions, that, while I disagree with him, I do not think that Thunderf00t is racist in any way, shape or form. It’s an accusation that’s been thrown at him a few times and I want to scotch it whenever I see it.
inb4 not your personal army.
@ D Landon Cole, Thank you for that exhaustive and relatively neutral report.
Ah, the internet. I can not tell you how many times I have had that very same thought.
Hang on one minute – Dawahfilms took YouTube drama to the level where he actually contacted Thunderf00t’s employers – and apparently has been giving out TF’s personal details on demand I might add – and Thunderf00t is the asshat?
Go fuck yourself sideways with a decayed porcupine D Landon Cole.
a.fenton – indeed, thanks for the correction
Kerfluffle – thanks for reading through it
Bruce Gorton – I did actually say above that I do not think that DawahFilms should have contacted Thunderf00t’s employers. My point was that I don’t like Thunderf00t on a personal level, from what limited interaction I’ve had with him. I was trying to be open and preclude people saying that I was just saying this because I don’t like TF etc.. I did also say that I don’t think either party has been particularly impressive in all this, and both have over-reacted and so on.
If, however, that’s not enough, perhaps you would care to advise me on the best way of inserting that particular rodent about my anatomy. Quills first?
I also think that Thunderfoot, whose videos I generally love, has occasionally gone a little beyond what I consider an acceptable level of vitriol.
Because what I think about vitriol levels is of enormous importance in the Over-All Community.
Not.
Seriously, my feeling about it is that I sometimes think friends are wrong. It really has looked like a couple of guys in a pissing match, though I have to say that Dawahfilms has been the worst, even though I don’t like some of the crap that Thudnerfoot has been saying either. Dawahfilms, I think, started out just trying to be informative and emphatic about his religion, angry that it is so often “misrepresented” and got carried away, to the point that, yes, his rhetoric has become way beyond acceptable. And whether they were technically death threats or not, they were most certainly intended to intimidate, to silence. Also, if he is the one who is contacting employers and so forth, he stepped over a line.
On the other hand, if Thunderfoot does much more than call Dawahfilms out for his bad behavior I think he will be making a big mistake. Since Dawahfilms has gotten down in the swamp and started wallowing, this would be a good time for Thunderfoot to regain the high ground.
Because Thunderfoot always listens to my advice and takes it, too.
Not.
@otrame
Tf00t long ago decided that the high ground wasn’t for him after he resulted in petty character attacks during the whole stupid Coughlan drama. So I doubt he will want to regain it again. For the record though if it turns out to be true that DawahFilms dropped his docs then that’s fucked up.
regarding Dr. Landon Cole @28
Um, fail. From what I’ve seen of his yt history, yes he is sometimes something of an overbearing hothead. But massively outweighing it in the general scheme of things is his skill at presenting valid science. Certainly people make mistakes, including possibly TF at times.
But I’m afraid that (not having heard any of this before) I’m not going to look upon this as a neutral tit-for-tat misunderstanding. You’ve explicitly admitted that Dawahfilms approached TF’s employer.
We’re supposed to believe, with the admission that they have and do act outside of net ethics that another transgression to their benefit to their advantage was not at their behest? Really? Have they explicitly condemned it? Strongly, or sotto voice? It hardly matters. Contacting TF’s employer already demonstrates how the ethical scales tilt.
— TWZ
D Landon Cole
Lets put it this way: You and Thunderf00t argued and didn’t reach agreement. Your views were opposed on the subject of his Islam videos and they remain opposed – correct?
And that is perfectly fine. Thunderf00t’s Islam videos are badly researched shit that do not in any way approach the depth of knowledge with which he tackles just about any other subject.
But here is the thing: Did he ever once, in his disagreement with you or Coughlan or Shredderisalive or anybody else on YouTube, contact your employers to try to get you fired? Do you think he would do that if he had the information?
Dawahfilms did. That makes him the asshat. Thunderf00t one may dislike, one may think is a total bigot and bordering on willfuly ignorant on certain subjects. But the asshat in this situation is and always will be – Dawahfilms.
ColonelZen @ 35,
First off, I’m not a doctor – D is my initial.
As I said, and seem to be having to repeat, DawahFilms was wrong in contacting Thunderf00t’s employer. That does not, to my mind, justify putting out the video that TF, HealthyAddict and PZ did. It is, from what I understand, wrong on fact. Moreover, I don’t think what DawahFilms did justifies a ‘fair game’ response.
Bruce @ 36 ,
You seem to be taking one part of a rather lengthy comment as more important than the whole thing. Sheesh, I was just trying to find a jokey way of saying that I don’t like the guy. I’ve said that I think DawahFilms was wrong in contacting TF’s employer. I was trying to head off at the pass anyone who knew me from what contact I have had with TF.
I am not trying to justify what DawahFilms did. I am saying that the way things are presented in this video are, so far as I can tell, wrong.
This is the part where I explicitly say that DF is wrong in what he’s doing and is underhanded and douchey. You see, if I don’t say this then someone will feel the need to assign my position to me. Though, chances are that’s going to happen anyway but here goes nothing:
Is there any evidence for this beyond circumstance and Thunderf00t says so? I find it amazing that people who profess to be critical thinkers seem to throw the whole concept out the window when the information sounds too good to pass up. Sure, DF had TF’s docs based on a video that was released in May on a channel not known to be associated with DF. Is there ANYTHING to indicate that the channel which had originally uploaded the info on TF was a sock account of DF’s? Heads up, I won’t accept that it is self-evident/obvious in the same way I will not accept that creation is self-evident. The standard of evidence thing cuts both ways.
The rumour mill also seems to have moved from “DF gloated about contacting TF’s employer and dropped TF’s first name” to “HE ADMITTED HE SPREAD THE DOCS AROUND!!!!111”. When and where? Oh… I’m sorry… I forgot that many believe I’m not supposed to ask questions about the validity of accusations against Muslims lest I suddenly become an islamosympathizer. Skeptical inquiry should never be turned toward atheists. Ever. It violates some unspecified strategy for an unspecified game so I hear.
I hope those of you making assumptions because PZ or TF say so never serve on a jury.
@Bruce Gorton
They’re both ass-hats. Yes DawahFilms is an ass-hat for contacting Thunderf00t’s employer, but Thunderf00t is also an ass-hat for resorting to character assassinations instead of responding to real criticisms. Till this day he still pretends that DawahFilms issued a death threat against him just for speaking out against Islam when in reality DawahFilms stupidly mistook Thunderf00ts ranting as promoting genocide (as DlandonCole explained). DawahFilms even apologized in a video response for his stupid mistake whereas Thunderf00t continues even while knowing the truth.
Come on that’s ass-hat behavior, unless your trying to say that DawahFilms is just the BIGGER ass-hat which in that case you would be right. If that’s what you’re saying then I guess I agree with you. It’s just that I’m sick and tired of people taking Thunderf00t’s side on this whole thing when they both have been acting childish. Just because he’s an atheist, does not automatically mean he is a rational person.
@Bruce Gorton
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that DuhWhat!? is a hateful, thin-skinned little troll and ThunderFootfetishist is some kind of glorious paladin of goodness.
No. Both are hateful, thin-skinned trolls who have, for the last 2 years misbehaved like petulant, spoiled brats. Both have done exactly the wrong thing at every junction. Both have stepped outside of YouTube to get other people to be their personal army for them. Both have made veiled death threats. Both are inexcusable assclowns and neither deserves any support in their infantile throw-all-my-toys-and-my-dirty-diaper-out-of-the-crib tantrums.
@adafuns
When did TF contact anyone’s employer in a bid to get them professionally censured or fired?
Because until you can provide that, your equivocation marks you as an asshole.
@Luther
No. I recognise that there is a difference between being arrogant and overbearing, and actually maliciously seeking to harm someone IRL. While the former is annoying, the latter is a subject of magnitude worse.
Besides what you are spewing is pure myth – Thunderf00t had two debates with the strongest of his critics. D Landon Cole was one of them. They didn’t reach agreement or part on good terms, but that is not the same as saying he didn’t answer his critics.
And frankly I saw a lot of those criticisms – they were cogent in the same manner as VenomfangX was scientifically literate. Calling TF’s mom a whore does not demonstrate his arguments are wrong.
Note I agree that TF’s Islam videos were shit. They were badly done boilerplate with virtually no research and no thought put into them.
But the character assassination by slimeball wannabe white knights more interested in playing equivocation games than actually dealing with the fact that Dawah is not a good guy, pisses me off.
@KL
Several posters claim to have created Islamic sounding sock accounts and gotten the info by simply asking Dawah for it. So far as I am aware Dawah has not refuted this claim.
@41(Kelvin Pauli)
“Yeah, keep it to Christianity Thunderf00t. That way there will be no liberal guilt. Don’t you know the majority of Muslims have brown skin? It’s racist to criticize their religion!”
I don’t see what your comment has to do with anything. If TF would do a science video about the nonsense Haruhn Yahya (Adnan Oktar) noone would see a problem. Indeed many arguments could be brought up there. As DLC tried to explain in his post is that TF is “While I think Thunderf00t could usefully spend some time learning more about Islam, comparative politics and social science methods before he does any more videos on those subjects …”.
Never once did DLC imply that he personally thought TF was a racist. You’re Basically pulling a reverse Godwin here with: “Yeah, keep it to Christianity Thunderf00t. That way there will be no liberal guilt. Don’t you know the majority of Muslims have brown skin? It’s racist to criticize their religion!” This was neither DLC’s intent nor opinion. I’ll be polite and say that this is no more than a strawman of the argument DLC presented. I’m sorry to say that you have failed in addressing the central issues raised and just resortod to what amounts to no more than screaming Because a reasonable point was raised and it just doesn’t fit your worldview.
It seems to me that your criticism of DLC is more of a product of “TF said it, so it must be true” than a critical analysis of where you think DLC is wrong. Did you just pick the bigger YT’er or the one who’s more in the public eye? This shitstorm has gone on for well over a year so you might as well look up what’s been said on YT. You’re not being very skeptical, think about it.
Regards,
Rhysz
Hey it’s Landon Cole. His chat with Thunderfoot is actually kinda interesting (if you’ve got five hours to spare. I find skipping through it didn’t harm it too badly). Yeah, they didn’t get anywhere. But it’s where the impasses lie and the points that get circled that’s interesting. Two different ways of looking at the world. It’s a pity they’re not on better terms. There’s a lot everyone can learn from a sociological and geo-political approach, particularly if people want reason/science/skepticism etc to spread.
Thunderfoot does appear to have a bee in his bonnet about Islam. No worse than a lot of white western rationalists. It does seem quite surface and outside his expertise when he addresses it (although I’m one who found the harddrive burning quite witty). Dawah films does seem apt to give people a bee in their bonnet over Islam however. People say he’s alright in person/private chat, but in his videos, comments and apparently vindictive behaviour he’s as smug, self righteous and annoying as VenomfangX ever was.
The whole “My civilisation can beat up your cilvilisation!” “Oh Yeah!” “Yeah!” “Oh Yeah! “Yeah!” exchange is a thorough embarrassment and should be forgotten, however.
For a contrast it’s worth checking out Potholer’s clash with Amenakin where they took steps to squelch the ire, at least between themselves (between their fans it was probably less successful)
@Bruce : thanks for saving me time
@Kelvin Pauli: The fatwa envy is strong in this one.
P.S.
DLC made it clear that he thought neither party was acting in a reasonable and mature manner. It’s all perceived insults and threats. I will admit that I’m very annoyed that this had to be dragged into RL.
And note – this did not have to end up this way.
If you had maintained your disagreement with Thunderf00t without going out of your way to support Dawahfilms as he escalated this shit – if you had disowned him when he first started doc hunting, maybe he would have gotten the message that this wasn’t going to win him any arguments.
I oppose Thunderf00t’s Islam stuff. His argument on the so-called 9/11 mosque was the sort of thing you expect out of Fox news. His recent video on that false DMCA-er? It was for potholer54 to pursue any fight he wanted on it, not Thunderf00t.
DMD2? Why? Were there still riots over Mohammed cartoons? Because otherwise it was just pointless. Burn a Koran day? Who seriously gave a shit?
When it comes to Islam Thunderf00t is far from being brilliant, but that in no way excuses Dawahfilms. It is not something you can say “Ja well…” about and use as excuses.
We expect there to be people we consider shitheads in the world, but you know what? When you set out to harm somebody in their personal capacity as a result of some meaningless online drama? You become the one that is the shithead.
@ Muzz
“For a contrast it’s worth checking out Potholer’s clash with Amenakin where they took steps to squelch the ire, at least between themselves (between their fans it was probably less successful)”
The strange thing was that Thunderf00t issued his video AFTER Potholer and Amenakin issued their collaboration video to try and squelch, from what I can only call, the worst of their supporters.
The disagreement still exists, and I’m with Potholer here. However, they did it in a mature and polite manner. I have to applaud them both on that. However, TF was a week late to the party and started up a new round of righteous indignation.
Regards,
Rhysz
D Landon Cole,
Thanks for that informative summary.
That said, the section that you think is misinterpreted as a death threat looks pretty damn well like a death threat to me. Telling people that if they do certain things you are going to send them to the god they don’t believe in a pretty clear death threat in my book.
Joshua @ #49
There’s been a few explanatory videos about all that. A death threat has to be specific and personal. Thunderfoot has already painted the West as a sleeping giant that grants the Muslim world existence and could crush it like a bug if it so wished. Could be a veiled death threat in some eyes. Dahwahfilms comes back with, in essence, ‘If you and yours stir up a fight that harms innocents, we’re obliged to fight back and even kill you stop it’ (which actually refers to some aspect of scripture, from memory). The “you” there is generic. Thunderfoot is part of the “you”, but it’s a general sentiment.
It’s dumb as rocks, flat out belligerent posturing on both counts, but there’s no “I’m going to, or tell others to, kill you” to be found.
Hmm, interesting. As a side note, I had always thought PZ would have a deeper voice. Ah well.
@Bruce Gorton
Ah, so I’m supposed to be taking mysterious unnamed people at their word. Dawahfilms has in fact released a video saying he didn’t spread TF’s docs but again those are just words too. The only thing that’s saving his stupid ass right now is that he is essentially holding to the null hypothesis.
So far, all I’m hearing is that TF, PZ and a number of people of unknown identity allege that DF is responsible without a shred of evidence beyond their word. I’m not sure where this critical thought thing that my fellow atheists enjoy boasting about has gone.
@ Bruce Gorton
He contacted the FBI and had them investigate DawahFilms for an alleged death threat he never made, and this was all before the whole doc dropping thing. Both this and calling his employer are both the same thing, meaning they reached outside of youtube to personally harass the other. If you cannot see why Thunderf00t is just as bad as DawahFilms then you’re a moron (unless it gets proven that Dawah did indeed drop his docs for all to see, then Dawah would have upped the scale in the ass-hat o’ meter)
Your inability to see this story from other angles makes you the asshole here, not me.
@ Kevin Pauli
It’s a cop out to accuse everyone who is critical of Thunderf00t of having “white guilt”. Islam is stupid and should be criticized, but Thunderf00t’s videos critical of Islam were poorly researched and contained bigoted statements. He actually said that there are no such thing as moderate Muslims. If you cannot understand why this is wrong then something is wrong with you. Its like saying all Christians are crazy people who molest children or that all atheists are crazy nationalist who support eugenics. Its fucked up and you know it.
Ive been unsubscribed to him for quite some time so if he took back all of this please let me know. I used to have a lot of respect for him so if he admitted his mistakes it would help to gain some of that respect back.
@adafuns
Taking steps to deal with what looks to reasonable outside observers like a death-threat isn’t asshatish at all. The fact that multiple people having just looked at that statement thought it was a death threat (and some on this thread, including me, are still not at all convinced it isn’t) means contacting the relevant authorities is perfectly sane behavior.
Contacting someone’s employer for no reason at all isn’t in the same category.
No, sorry, I don’t buy it. The phrase to “send you to your god” means “kill you”. This is a death threat. What other interpretation can you give? That it’s an empty death threat? How do you know if a death threat is empty or not? It is addressed personally to Thunderf00t, and therefore the FBI is the appropriate body to contact.
There is no plausible reason to contact Thunderf00t’s employer other than for harrassment. They are not the same thing at all.
PZ – you’ve been snookered. Thunderf00t made up 90% of this and the remaining 10% – which IS true – is more complicated than it may seem.
He was threatened by an “angry Muslim” who he claims Thunderf00t has defamed – repeatedly – in his videos. Eventually, this “angry Muslim” did just as he had threatened, which was to contact Thunderf00t’s employer to complain and seek his dismissal. Thunderf00t assured his youtube audience that his employer was not only informed of his youtube activities, but they were supportive and further, his employment contract specifically extended to Thunderf00t time to devote to those videos because they were “of value”.
As you yourself have been subject to numerous complaints from angry theists of many stripes and flavors hoping to have YOU terminated at your place of employment, I’m sure that you’d agree such efforts shouldn’t be rewarded. But if Thunderf00t’s employer is, as he alleges, facilitating these videos it is certainly legitimate for an individual who is being misrepresented in them to complain and seek an end to it. Thunderf00t can’t have it both ways, now can he?
Furthermore, Thunderf00t’s exaggerated the writing of angry complaints to a university employing a controversial faculty member beyond all proportion to insinuate this “angry Muslim” is threatening far worse against him and worse again, his family, of which Thunderf00t has no evidence. And you fell for it.
@ Joshua Zelinsky
You would be right, except that Dawah immediately released a video explaining the meaning behind his so called “death threat” and admitted the stupid mistake in misinterpreting what Thunderf00t meant with the whole “..sleeping dragon” thing. Now either Thunderf00t did not see the video before calling the FBI or he knew and went along with it anyway. I highly doubt that he did not see the video and this whole thing reeks of dishonesty. Even if he didn’t see the video he never admitted his mistake and still to this day he insist that it was a death threat. The main criticism against Thunderf00t about DawahFilms is his refusal to admit that he was wrong on this subject alone.
Look, I’m not some guy joining the hate Thunderf00t bandwagon and I’m sure there are plenty of those, but rather I was a former fan who is disappointed in what he has become. He thinks he is above criticism, and choose to ignore any of the arguments against him choosing to prefer character assassinations instead.
The only reason why he agreed to the blogtv discussion with DlandonCole was because of so much pressure from people to do it. Before then he never bothered to reply to the arguments against him and resorts to cherry picking those videos which sound the most incoherent and vitriolic, then implying that all his critics behave like that or that they contain nothing but hate speak with no real arguments like some kind of tone troll or something. Even if the arguments against him are stupid, to lie about the content in some of these vids is wrong.
Now I’m done talking about this. They both suck (DawahFilms and Thunderf00t), and they are both childish, thin skinned trolls. Until definitive evidence gets presented which shows Dawah indeed dropped his docs; they are both equally stupid in my eyes.
@ echidna
Last comment just to explain it to echidna.
I understand how it sounds like a death threat. I thought so at first until I saw DawahFilms video explaining what he meant. He wasn’t saying that he himself was going to “send him to his god” but rather the Islamic nations and their non Islamic allies would if the west were to awake any “sleeping giant” against Islam (or was it awakening the sleeping dragon? I’m sorry I don’t remember the actual quote).
You see the problem? Dawah thought Thunderf00t was condoning genocide on Muslims. Why do you think he said “non Islamic allies”? Because surely there are many nations who are not Islamic and would stand up against genocide. He misinterpreted the whole line about awakening sleeping dragon/giant to mean violence. If you want to call him stupid for misinterpreting Thunderf00t go ahead, but it was not a death threat in the way you’re probably thinking, but rather it was a response to what he assumed was a bigoted extremist who was calling out for genocide. DawahFilms released a video explaining himself and admitting this mistake which Thunderf00t seemingly ignored and continues to view it as a death threat till this day. Supposedly he has even defended another user by the name of Zomgitscris who was receiving death threats from Muslims condemning those death threats, but Ive never seen this video. Both videos should be on his channel so feel free to see for yourself.
Keep note that I’m not saying that DawahFilms is excused for all of the other stupid shit he’s done, but rather that Thunderf00t isn’t exactly in the clear here.
As for whether it was appropriate to contact Thunderf00t’s employers or not. I used to think it was not but GeorgeBean’s comment up above has me thinking otherwise.
Now I’m out. Hope I cleared things out for you echidna.
Peace out.
Am I the only one for whom the site keeps replacing the above video with the sea pig video?
adafuns,
Thanks for your reply, but it hasn’t helped at all. What you have explained is why Dawahfilms felt justified in issuing a death threat, based on his interpretation of “waken sleeping giants/dragons” as a call to genocide.
I don’t see any rational for interpreting “send you to your god” as anything other than “kill you”, most clearly a death threat. Perhaps it was a death threat issued mistakenly, but that doesn’t change what was said.
People reading that as a death threat in the first place makes me weep for English comprehension.
Since when do death threats start with if statements pertaining to implied horrible things and speak in entirely generic and retaliatory terms? Not ‘I’, ‘we’. Not Thunderfoot, but ‘and people who think like him’. And what does he think? Apparently that the enlightened world is a sleeping giant upon whose forbearance the Muslim world’s continued existence relies (yeah, that’s not going to raise any hackles.)
Let’s be clear: Both of them are employing imagery of vast world spanning murderous violence in their little rhetorical pissing contest. But that’s all they’re doing. In truth TF has set the tone and DF has responded in kind.
You could say Thunderfoot can take it as a death threat if he sees fit and calling the Feds would be justified from his point of view and I guess that’s true. He’s still wrong though.
what a convoluted mess…
And has anyone come forward with any evidence that he was doxed and that it was this DF guy?
Ho! For fuck sake, seriously haven’t you muslims got a rape victim to stone to death or something. Stop bothering us with your ‘we had an enlightened age in the 13th century’ nobody is now impressed with that and if your Qur’an is so full of science why are you not getting your Nobel Prizes as you have had a head start on the rest of the world. You are backward sexist, homophobic fuckwits. Your god is a sadistic bastard and your profit (I like this spelling better) is a peado. Seriously grow up and stop believing in talking rocks and flying horses and for fuck sake have a beer and calm down. You know it makes sense.
Muzz,
All of the following are death threats:
I will kill you.
If you touch me I will kill you.
If you or your mates touch me I will kill you.
If you or your mates touch us, we will kill you.
I weep for those who think that widening the scope of the threat negates the basic threat.
Wow, y’all have a lot invested in this youtube fight, innit? Not that I condone death threats, but y’all are hyperventilating over some triflin ass shit.
youtube is srs bsns
echidna
After our tears are done we can discover how a ‘wider scope death threat’ somehow excludes an equally justifiable reading of potential genocide against someone’s entire people.
Not specific enough for the feds perhaps? Well I didn’t spot the precise conditions being named where Thunderfoot awoke a sleeping giant that might set Dawahfilms and his pals on the war path either. Since retaliation is apparently conditional on the activity of said giant we need to find out where this giant is and cross him off the known unknowns list before charges can be properly laid.
Or it could be a people engaged in windy rhetoric and not worth worrying about.
I’M DEVON BUTLER!! No! — I’m Devon Butler!
@adafuns
No he didn’t. TF was in contact with the FBI over other, more serious death threats by other people before Dawah came along.
The people who contacted the FBI were amongst TF’s supporters. And lets face it, Dawah did issue a death threat.
@Muzz
At no point did TF advocate genocide – his video and his clarification video make it clear he was talking about relative military strength and why it wouldn’t be a good idea to provoke the US into retaliation.
Dawahfilms’ clarification video made it abundantly clear that what he meant by “Send you to the god you wish you knew” was the same as “destroy you.”
That it was a conditional threat doesn’t change the fact that it was in fact a death threat.
Oh, and Dawah admitted it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUQ7YgfeOAU
Also completerationality has a summary on the Dawah affair. Chapter 3 is up and talks about the FBI accusations:
DawahFilms VS Thunderf00t: What Actually Happened (A Documentary) Part 3 (FBI Accusations)
Bruce,
It astonishes me that you insist on your ignorance even when you were refuted multiple times by multiple people.
I agree with D Landon’s post 100 percent. I’m not happy with Dawah/Ali for not dropping the issue, and for trying to get revenge on Tf00t through his employer, but Tf00t has manipulated xenophobia and general Muslim hating from the beginning of this fiasco in order to falsely paint Ali as a violent hate filled Muslim, when in fact, he’s a pissed off, rash kid.
And I think being investigated by the FBI due to the lies and character assassinations by some jerk on Youtube outweighs talking to your manager about your actions.
thelastholdout
Watch the video I linked. Dawah’s defenders are lying about the FBI claim.
To those requesting proof that DawahFilms publicly dropped Thunderf00ts docs to people other than his employer, and his colleagues.
I was sent thunderf00ts docs when I made a comment addressed to DawahFilms expressing doubt that he actually had them. What he (DawahFilms) did was simply send a link through the youtube messaging system (without comment) to a downloadable zip at the 2share file sharing site.
I don’t know how I would go about proving this. If I provided an unedited screen shot of the message I received I would be dropping TF’s brothers docs. If I edit the image to hide the full link, people would unable to go to the site, download the file, and verify it’s contents themselves and it could claimed that it’s a link to something else.
I will point out however that after being confronted in the comment section of his latest video DF, after having repeatedly insisting he hadn’t shared the information with anyone other than TF’s employers, and colleagues, admits to having sent it to 4 of TF’s youtube subscribers. Other than pointing that out, and personally knowing his doc dropping went beyond that, I’m unable to add more to this discussion.
I forgot to add a comment regarding DawahFilms claims regarding an alleged investigation by the FBI. I see people repeating this as though it’s a fact. As far as I know there is no evidence it ever happened. Ali has been asked repeatedly to back up his claim with evidence, and he has failed to do so. He has also changed his story about who contacted them (if it ever happened) repeatedly, and has even admitted that it may have simply happened (again if it ever did) tangentially to the FBI’s investigation into other credible death threats TF has received.
Also it could have been the result of an extremist, or someone with extremist ties contacting him. Also Ali is a white American who recent convert to Islam with a fairly high profile online presence. It could simply have been a case of profiling, but of course we know the FBI never engages in that.
That being said I think it’s clear that the FBI wouldn’t inform him why he was being investigated (once again if he ever was), so any claims that TF, or his subs were involved is completely unsubstantiated speculation.
There is so much additional misinformation in this thread that it’s impossible address it all with a comment shorter than a novel. Perhaps this will help. It’s a fairly accurate 3 part series that covers most of the relevant issues.
Turns out there’s a preacher in Australia by that name spreadin’ Jesus.
Oh the irony…
Muzz
Don’t patronise me, and stop changing the subject.
I have been addressing one point only: the unambiguous death threat issued by Dawah, which you erroneously denied was a death threat.
Provocation notwithstanding, Dawah committed an illegal act by issuing a death threat. Thunderf00t did not issue a death threat.
I’m not changing the subject at all, I’m evaluating the statement in context to argue it is not what people say it is. I admit I’m not sure what the legal definition is, but frankly if that nonsense didn’t play itself out as empty but inflammatory rhetoric in court once the context is considered then the law is an ass.
There’s got to be more to a verdict on this than one half a sentence or we’re going to some bizarro 1984-ish “word crime” scenario. By all means tell the guy he’s skirting awfully close and it could be taken as such and he better back off and rephrase or something. Beyond that the whole thing is awfully silly.
Muzz:
It’s not hard to find a legal definition:
from USlegal.com:
Muzz, get it through your head that making death threats is intimidating and illegal. The context is that Dawah felt justified in issuing the death threat; there is no indication that he didn’t mean it.
Yes Ali is such an innocent little moderate muslim.
I mean, spreading the docs of a person he knows gets death threats, is such a moderate thing to do. Especially when done by a muslim, because as we all know there is zero chance of his fellows in faith, could never ever do anything the least insane.
DawahFilms – world’s biggest douchebag.
Someone really needs to shut that stupid camel fucker up.
@Bruce Gorton
>”No. I recognise that there is a difference between being arrogant and overbearing, and actually maliciously seeking to harm someone IRL.”
What, like calling the FBI on someone because that someone was trying hard to be an Internet Tough Guy? DuhWhat!?Film’s death threat was empty and toothless. (So was Thunderfoot’s, but his was aimed at everyone from Morocco to Afghanistan….and so TFoot’s death threat was many orders of magnitude worse.)
>”Besides what you are spewing is pure myth.”
Bullshit. I’ve been watching this nonsense unfold while it was happening. As far as I can tell, you are just some johnny-come-lately yobbo who wandered in from the sidelines.
>”Thunderf00t had two debates with the strongest of his critics. D Landon Cole was one of them. They didn’t reach agreement or part on good terms, but that is not the same as saying he didn’t answer his critics.”
He only debated D. Landon after more than a month of hectoring and cajoling from ALL of his Critics — which up to that point he smugly ignored — when he wasn’t ad-homming them.
>”And frankly I saw a lot of those criticisms – they were cogent in the same manner as VenomfangX was scientifically literate.”
Coughlan and Shredder weren’t his only Critics, they were merely the two angriest. What about FederalistFilms or Paul Chartley?
>”Calling TF’s mom a whore does not demonstrate his arguments are wrong.”
Again, not everyone was stooping to ad-hom’s.
>”Note I agree that TF’s Islam videos were shit. They were badly done boilerplate with virtually no research and no thought put into them.”
Uh, it’s worse than that. He gave aid and comfort of Supremacist Nutjobs. His comment sections for those vids were flooded by Racist DBags, Right-Wing Moonbats, Evangelical Crackpots and Nihistic Fuckwits.
And he didn’t seem to notice or care.
>”But the character assassination by slimeball wannabe white knights more interested in playing equivocation games than actually dealing with the fact that Dawah is not a good guy, pisses me off.”
Maybe you aren’t paying attention, so I’ll clarify my position again: I do NOT thing Dawah is a Good Guy. I never said and I never will say he’s a Good Guy. He’s just as bad as TFoot.
I’m not partisan for either one. I’m ANTI-partisan for both.
So, in closing, I must respond with this fixor’d quote:
“But the character assassination by slimeball wannabe white knights more interested in playing equivocation games than actually dealing with the fact that NEITHER Dawah NOR TFOOT are a good guys, pisses ME off.”
My point is, there is no reason to choose sides in this. Neither one is a glorious hero fighting the good fight against the oppression of tyranny. Both are smarmy egomaniacs who don’t deserve the support their partisans give them.
To paraphrase Bill Hicks:
Some of my friends think DawahFilms is an arsehole. Some of my friends think Thunderf00t is an arsehole. Brothers, sisters, I beseech you, can’t we agree they’re both arseholes?
Sorry, had to get that out of my head, I’m feeling frivolous. This is simple:
1) Death threats are the act of a total raving scumbag, it’s pretty clear Tf00t didn’t make anything like a death threat, he was just being a triumphalist, West is Best dickhead. His stuff on Islam is pretty laughably bad. Islam still sucks as a religion, sorry Muslims it does, but being berated with ignorant nonsense is a pest. It’s also pretty clear that Dawahfilms’ comments (despite post fact hyperventilating by him and his apologists) were very fucking close to being death threats, even if they missed the line/were delivered under a misapprehension. Personally I don’t think they missed the line at all.
2) Calling the FBI on someone over a war of words on the internet is the act of a throbbing douchecanoe. If Dawahfilms posed a credible threat and was repeatedly issuing death threats, this might be a different ball game. Until now, he’s just been some jokey little poptart with a shitty beard.
3) Contacting someone’s place of work over a war of words on the internet and acting butthurt is the act of a grossly throbbing douchecanoe. I offer Dawahfilms the Pharyngulite porcupine that he might insert it into his tightly clenched anus. Sideways and with some venom.
4) If you are being threatened with death (or reasonably believe this to be the case) then contacting the authorities is a reasonable course of action (if indeed it was Thunderf00t that did this, if it happened). Contacting someone’s place of work because you don’t like what they said on the internet is not reasonable. See the difference?
5) Comments by fucking bottomfeeders like Hockey Bob at #81 are not helping. Racial slurs and demonising Dawahfilms because he is a Muslim is beyond pathetic (Double porcupine is the arse for racists). The man is a douchecanoe because he acts like a douchcanoe, his asinine belief in a magic sky fair that watches him masturbate is doubtless contributory, but then so are his numerous obvious character flaws. The same applies to Thunderf00t. He’s not an arse because he’s white or an atheist, he’s an arse because he’s acted like an arse.
6) This whole fucking drama is beyond pathetic. Someone should lock those two in a room and let them go at each other, either with a lead pipe or two, or perhaps a tube of lube and a series of exciting toys. Whichever floats their respective boats, I’m not going to judge.
Louis
Oh and threatening to out someone because you don’t like what they say, and thus cleanly allowing for someone else to harm them…beyond douchecanoe.
So far beyond douchecanoe and accelerating that the canoe be blue.
THAT is the act of a gigantic, throbbing, shit covered, scum sucking, pureile pissant. Dawahfilms should get a very sound series of anal porcupines for that.
Louis
@ Bruce Gorton
If what you say is true then I guess I am wrong about that, but its a little to much of a coincidence that Thunderf00t came in contact with the FBI (he said in a video he spoke to them) and Dawah claim an investigation. Maybe I’m putting together a pattern that isn’t really there. I’ll look at these videos so thanks for the links.
I going to admit being wrong about saying it was not a death threat since the more I think about it the more I can see what others here are saying. If you want to get semantic with it, then yes its a death threat just not the kind of death threat people are accusing him of doing anyways. He never personally said he alone wants to kill Thunderf00t for being critical of Islam, and that is what most people think a death threat is on the internet. Its a personal declaration to kill someone. It is clear in the video where he issues the death threat that he is specifically talking about retaliation from Islamic nations and non Islamic allies if the west opened the sleeping giant. This is also a death threat, but one of self defense from what he perceived to be a call for genocide. Unless Dawah is now the leader of a Muslim nation who is backed by non Muslim allies and is going to send his army or military assassins to get Thunderf00t then no one can says this is a death threat in the classical sense.
Thunderf00t quoting the whole “sleeping giant” thing could easily have been misinterpreted as a call for violence and genocide seeing as how its history deals with world war 2, and especially since he never made any distinction between extremist and moderates, and actually flat out lumped them all together as one and the same. Not only has Dawah made other videos explaining what he thought Thunderf00t meant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lej7reDiJXA&feature=channel_video_title), but he also made a video wishing to apologize for the stupid way he handled it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZllAj6_rWg&feature=channel_video_title) and also wanted Thunderf00t to clarify what he meant in his video so that he can admit being wrong. Thunderf00t has not acknowledge this, and till this day paints Dawah as a crazy extremist which is incredibly dishonest (if Thunderf00t has commented on this please let me know because I seem to have missed it). This is my problem with it, that people still seem to think he issued the kind of death threat commonly associated with religious fanatics, and I am just fed up with Thunderf00t’s disingenuous nature. This isn’t the first time he was accused of purposefully picking and choosing whatever makes him look good and ignoring what does not in order to attack the character of one who dared criticize him.
Lets be honest here, if the situation was reversed and it was a Muslim extremist who said something we all perceived was a call for genocide to all non believers; how do you think everyone would react? They would say something like “The western secular nations, along with our allies would come down on you and send you to the god you think exists.” And we would all be fine with that. Oh wait, this actually happened with Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
Like I said in an earlier post; if you want to dislike Dawah feel free. He is not that bright of a guy, as you can probably see in these videos, but to say he is a fanatical extremist is dishonest and I’m sick and tired of people pulling the whole “liberals pansies with white guilt” bullshit on everyone who happens to be critical of Thunderf00t (not talking to you Gordon, I’m just saying). As if the man is infallible and anyone else who critiques him must be wrong. There’s a reason why some people call him ThunderChrist.
@Mikepaps
@Bruce Gorton
Thanks for the videos you two. I misinterpreted another video Thunderf00t made where he speaks about the FBI and death threats while simultaneously continuing his disingenuous bullshit about Dawah being a fanatical extremist, and put the two together. I did not see the video where Thunderf00t clarifies that the FBI situation had nothing to do with Dawah so I guess I was wrong about this. Until Dawah can provide decent evidence that he was indeed being investigated I can say that he had no justification for going into Thunderf00ts personal life like that. I still however haven’t seen any evidence that Dawah had dropped his docs.
Everything else Ive said about Thunderf00t’s dishonest nature still stands, and while I now consider Dawah to be more in the wrong here; I am still going to say that Thunderf00t is no longer the beacon of rationality he once was in youtube.
Yie. In an effort to clear up further misunderstandings, no- Thunderf00t didn’t report this “angry Muslim” to the FBI, nor does this “angry Muslim” claim he did. He accuses Thunderf00t of fanning the flames and inciting islamaphobic bigots, (which Thunderf00t has in abundance applauding his videos), the result being constant harassment and reports to the FBI.
The whole clusterfuck strongly resembles Elevator Gate in some respects, where something somebody said was misinterpreted and repeated ad nauseum out of context, and the next thing you know it’s like the gates of hell have opened as hordes of so-called “skeptics” go ranting and raving over half the internet, posting vile and lunatic accusations like a buncha abject morons. And as a skeptic, I expect skeptics to do better than that. And I’m sorry to have to say this, but Thunderf00t does bear a lot of responsibility for this clusterfuck because he knows he can count on his fans to take pretty much anything he says at face value and he abuses the “privilege”.
A fellow skeptic made the following video deconstructing one of Thunderf00t’s attack videos, illustrating some of the propagandistic tricks used to evoke people’s stereotypes and stir up their passions. Drama and Propaganda
Thunderf00t’s baseless (and again, emotionally explosive) accusation that this “angry Muslim” has distributed personally revealing information about Thunderf00t’s family came days later. And I’ll be damned but it worked like a charm-again. This time he lured PZ Myers to help him pile it on thick.
Come on skeptics. I expect better of us.
I haven’t watched either of the ‘tagonists in this story, but this comment belongs in the “Not even wrong” bin.
To D Landon Cole:
“I would make a couple of comments on Thunderf00t’s comments. Firstly, another part of the creed of Anonymous is that Anonymous is not your private army. Secondly, I hope that by fair game, and particularly with your reference to cruelty, that you are not intending for people to take actions of a similar nature to those taken by the organisation in whose opposition Anonymous came to prominence under a policy of the same name.”
Actually Anonymous originates from before the Scientology protests, that was just the first time they did anything serious. Anonymous is well known for invading peoples privacy on the internet for lulz, at their core they are still semi-professional trolls.
While I don’t wish for anyone’s (even DawahFilms) personal life to be invaded, I won’t cry tears if the same thing happens to DawahFilms, because after all, he believes in an “eye for an eye”
“Thunderf00t has been getting threats from an angry Muslim.” What threats? TF quote mined a video by this individual, aka DawaFilms, to make it seem as if he is making threats. In other words, TF has been defaming him much like Breitbart has done to his liberal foes, at least 2 of which lost their jobs, including one professor. TF’s video has resulted in threats to DF’s life by rationalist atheists as well as him being contacted by the FBI. It is ironic that DF made a video reiterating the just war concept justified even by international in response to a video promoting war and genocide against Muslims and Arabs. Not surprising that Myers would take a fellow atheist’s side, though. Internal descent within the new atheist community is not allowed, and neither is admonishment of those who do wrong. That’s right, Myers, attack 1 of the greatest scientists of this era, Francis Collins; calling his credentials into question for the mere fact he is a Christian rather than holding your fellow new atheists accountable for their transgressions. Free thought and reason? How Orwellian.
Tossing around TF’s documents? No. TF’s documents have been floating around for at least 3-4 months. TF was booked as “Phil Mason (aka thunderf00t) from youtube” at an atheist event at Berkley; in fact there was an earlier video called “Thunderfoot’s Secret Identity” emanating from England supposedly from a friend, or ex friend, of TF revealing all his personal information. TF’s information was given to DF by someone else, and DF simply contacted TF’s employer to show the bigotry, lies and incompetency that such an esteemed institution as Cornell entrusted with professional research. But evidence never stopped the new atheists from blindly supporting their own. Evidence be damned. Of course not. Where it conflicts, just invent it. It’s the new atheist way.