It looks like Gaddafi’s Libyan regime is going down — the rebels have taken over Tripoli, the guards defending Gaddafi have surrendered, and the last contact with Gaddafi over the phone had him shouting defiance while gunfire rattled in the background.
I’m expecting to get up in the morning to hear that it’s all over.
Depends who you hear it from, if its from Gaddafi himself he’ll probably appear riddled with bullet wounds, covered in terror sweat and hiding in a bunker whilst swearing that there’s no rebellion and every single person in Lybia loves him unconditionally
No loss.
Let’s just hope that it leads to something better than the downfall of Mubarek has thus far.
Getting rid of Gadhafi is, unfortunately, probably the easiest part.
Glen Davidson
Over?
It’s one thing to take over the capital city. It’s another thing to establish a stable new regime. It’s yet another to establish a new regime that isn’t horribly oppressive.
History is filled with examples of revolutionaries who overthrew one horribly oppressive regime, only to replace it with another. Iran. Zimbabwe.
Mystery quote:
Winston Churchill, late 1940, after the Battle of Britian.
Do I win?
Here’s another mystery quote:
So when one says “it’s all over”, the key word here is the “it”, which in most instances can be rather arbitrarily defined….
Now those in favour of a secular, liberal democratic Libya will lay down their arms in the expectation of developing a constitution which guarantees individual freedom and protection for minorities. Meanwhile, the islamists will retain their arms, use them at will, and, of course, realize their dream of turning Libya into a repressive islamic hell hole.
It’s so nice that an absolute pacifist can celebrate the products of violence.
Fuck Gaddafi sideways with Kirk Cameron’s foot.
Where is the celebration? I think you’re projecting.
I remember that from The Last Unicorn.
The article mentions pickup trucks driving by, full of people firing their guns into the air.
I wonder how many times someone does that, and when they finally get to where they’re going can’t participate in the fun because they have no ammo left?
There’s another article in Al Jazeera that should be of more concern to us than the possible downfall of Gaddafi. “Europe’s Financial Wasteland” could affect all of us, not just the Europeans.
Sky News is having the best coverage right now, as they have a correspondent with the rebels in Green Square and several other contacts that other news outlets don’t. Amazing scenes; I just hope they can put together something afterward.
‘Tis – that one was actually pretty good, but in general Al Jazeera has an irritating habit of publishing the most insanely crackpot editorials on their website. It’s especially jarring compared to their great news coverage.
I’m expecting to get up in the morning to hear that it’s civil war all over Libya as the rebels fight for power.
Praise Muhammad!
He floats like a butterfly, and stings like a bee!
A3Kr0n: No no, you’re thinking of Muhammed Ali.
What a year. It’s amazing to think that 2011 might go down in the history books as one of those great turbulent years when a lot of political conflict arises, and regimes potentially topple.
“The end, Adrian? Nothing ever ends.”
Osama bin Laden: dead
Hosni Mubarak: on trial
Moammar Kadafi: ousted
Mind you, I am no Obama apologist, and will have to hold my nose firmly to vote for him again, but the above is a foreign policy record (achieved in a few months) that any candidate from any party would masturbate to.
Besides the fighters I saw kids and old men, but not a single woman on the street; only half a revolution, I’d say.
@Nom de Plume: I don’t think America’s good friend and loyal ally Hosni Mubarak’s name belongs on your list.
Gotta have some news to pump the stock market tomorrow… god knows it needs it.
I heard they made it into Tripoli, but I also heard that it was Muhammad Kadafi, one of his sons, that was captured while shouting defiantly into a phone. Last report was that the elder Kadafi is yet to be found.
2011 will not be another 1989. More of a “meet new boss, same as the old boss” thing I fear.
Yes, it was Muhammed Gaddafi; supposedly he had surrendered already, but still had his armed guards around him when some rebels came in and shooting began. He actually sounds quite conciliatory, not defiant; not entirely surprising considering his position, and that he was something of a minor figure and not in charge of any military or political affairs. They reported later that he was okay, but one rebel and one of his guards were killed.
Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_QurLCMpzA
Unfortunately PZ, that was one of his sons talking to an Al Jazeera reporter with the sound of gunfire in the background and not Gaddafi himself. Still, I believe they now have two of his sons, Including the one wanted by the ICC. So it can only be a matter of time before Gaddafi himself is wrapped up, unless of course he does a runner first.
Oops, beaten to it, twice, I should have refreshed, my bad.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MH20Ak01.html
does anybody here really think that there will be a “democrazy”
happening in Libya? Does anybody here of this conglomeration of skeptics really think NATO helped out of the goodness of their blessed little hearts, despite the evidence of Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan?
What kind of fucking dreamers populate this continent?
Hasn’t history taught us the only interest a State like the US has in the affairs of any other state is the cheap and preferably free, easy access and the god given right of US citizens to resources the populace demands and the plutocracy of the industrial elite desires? No matter how many civilians are sacrificed?
No, Ghaddafi was never a nice guy and deserves what he gets, but don’t for one moment think that things will change for the better for the general population. Iraq clearly shows were things are headed.
Peter @ 27, the comparison to Iraq doesn’t hold up especially well, primarily because this was a popular uprising by Libyans opposed to Gaddafi, not an invasion by outsiders. It was well under well before NATO got involved, and while I’m certainly not going to claim that NATO’s motives for supporting the rebels are saintly (more a matter of realpolitik that happens to coincide with the rebels’ goals), neither do I think that the simplistic cynicism of your comment is justified. However short of ideal democracy the new Libyan government turns out to be, it almost can’t help but be a considerable improvement over Gaddafi’s kleptocracy.
@peter
Maybe you should read for comprehension. No one above here said everything would be all fine and dandy after the revolution. In fact, one of the commenters said that this is just the easier part of the revolution. As for myself, I am going to see what comes out of it.
Another thing, this was something in which the heavy bulk of the fighting was done by the Libyans themselves. My biggest fear is not that it will become a puppet for western powers. My biggest fear for this country is that it could become an Islamic hell hole if they are not careful.
@Glen
Yeah, the military rule of Egypt has not been great so far. Although Egyptians keep protesting and persisting. Their stamina is amazing. Also, I remember that after all that chanting about how the Coptic Christians and Muslims were unified, I remember that they began fighting again. I don’t know, I hope that after the elections later this year, and Mubarak’s trial, the Egyptians get something better. They deserve it.
I’m reasonably optimistic that Libya will end up somewhat better. That’s not the same as a completely free, democratic, stable state; in fact, I think that’s pretty damn unlikely, given that Gaddafi ran the country without any real government institutions or civil service. It may well end up something like Lebanon was in the 1950’s before the civil wars broke out – with a semi-democratic government and fairly liberal urban population, but with a lot of simmering tensions in the more conservative rural areas. Obviously very different dynamics in Libya though.
@midnight rambler
I also have some optimism, although it may be wrong. A lot of the rebels are from the educated segments of the population, and just maybe, they might not create a theocracy.
Here’s a short piece from Aljazeera’s Libya Liveblog that really made me say “wow.” It’s just a photo and these 2 short paragraphs:
One interesting thing that hasn’t been picked up on much – a couple of weeks ago it was claimed that Khamis Gaddafi, who heads the government’s best brigade, was killed in an airstrike. That was denied, but the only evidence given was a poor-quality video supposedly of him visiting someone in a hospital, and the story just disappeared.
Given that the rebels’ big advances began right after that, and in this fight the Khamis brigade’s headquarters was completely overrun right at the beginning with hardly a fight, I wonder if he actually was killed.
Ah, that good old irregular noun – “government”. When it’s one your politicians approve of, it’s a government. When it’s one they disapprove of, it’s a regime. And the press play along.
(I’m surprised that in the US, the Republican’s don’t refer to the current government as “Obama’s regime”.)
Quoth Rod:
Winston Churchill, late 1940, after the Battle of Britian.
Do I win?
—–
Not really. 1942, after the Battle of El Alamein (not too far from Libya).
Still not quite right! It was after the Second Battle of El Alamein.
Mad dog ousted by other mad dogs. More sharia on the way!
Mad dog ousted by other mad dogs.
You’re going to the wrong massage parlor then. At a local one here they can be had for a $50 tip.
ABQ – testing new sockpuppets already?
Not really. 1942, after the Battle of El Alamein (not too far from Libya).
Still not quite right! It was after the Second Battle of El Alamein.
Damn. Spike Milligan didn’t mention the number of the battle …
Isn’t it neat how we can watch nym changes via gravatar patterns?
For a given definition of “near”. El Alamein is about half-way along Egypt’s coast. According to Google maps it’s 409km to the Musaid border crossing.
Wow, Quirky is here! *Sigh* Now it feels like home again.
And before anyone gets pedantic, I meant the Mediterranean coast.
Now the general IQ of Pharyngula has dipped to double digits.
I think it won’t be long before Gaddafi raged his final tardrage.
That guy was batshit insane.
No doubt not at all funny if you where a Libyan, but pretty amusing for everyone else. Didn’t he crown himself King of Africa once? I seem to recall him doing that.
And then he had that hissyfit about Switzerland because his son got arrested there for assaulting people.
Anyway Gaddafi always struck me as not being right in the head… and well good riddance to him real soon.
And when did PZ claim to be an absolute pacifist?
I’ll celebrate as soon as Gaddafi has his day in court. However, the situation in Libya does look good. When the rebels approached, lots of Gaddafi’s soldiers simply dropped their uniforms which now litter the streets. The head of the elite troops which were supposed to defend Gaddafi is said to have negotiated with the rebels for a long time (judging from comment 34, I’m probably talking about Khamis’s successor), and the elite troops have either gone hiding or joined the rebels. The rebels did not yet hold the TV broadcaster as of 2 hours ago, but had conquered the telecom and sent every Libyan a text message congratulating them to Gaddafi’s fall. The crazy dictator is gone, it can only get better.
I think a very light version of this is going to come as governments are realizing that you can’t have a common currency without some level of common financial politics.
And don’t overstate the problems of France or even Greece. It’s somewhere in Idaho where schools are only open four days a week anymore, and it’s in Texas where a town simply closed its police department, because they’re simply out of money.
Already renamed to Martyr Square. (“Martyr” not necessarily in the religious sense.)
LOL! They’ve already been governing most of the country for months, why should they suddenly break up now?
Why?
He has; the rebels have him, and they emphasize that he’s alive and well.
They’ve also arrested two other Gaddafi sons. It’s the father that’s missing (and some wonder if he’s already in Angola or Zimbabwe).
1) Had NATO not offered to help, they’d have looked like assholes who stand by and watch a bloodbath.
2) That’s what they look like when it comes to Syria – except that the Libyan rebels explicitly asked for NATO help, while the Syrian rebels haven’t done anything of that kind so far.
Both Libya and Syria are full of oil.
As long as the Syrian rebels think they can handle Assad alone, I do agree they should be left alone. Nobody should be given an excuse to think “it’s all been orchestrated by the Great Satan”.
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Unsurprisingly, I’m with comment 28. Libya will not be occupied. That has been obvious from the start. There is no reason for NATO to occupy Libya.
Unlikely. There are radical Islamists among the rebels, but not many – probably not enough to add an October Revolution to the current February Revolution.
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Oh yes!!!
Hey, Al, sockpuppeting is a bannable offense.
King of Kings of Africa. King of the traditional chiefs, that is.
And yes, he is quite the wacko. I still like the term Major Knall-Affi aus Lügien. I just have to run now instead of explaining it. :-)
On the plus side, it sounds like Gadaffi will get some free phone credit. BBC says the state mobile operator topped everyone up with £25 worth.
What’s the matter with you people. Libya was a country that should be copied not destroyed.
You been brainwashed. Libya had the highest Standard Of Living in all of Africa and Gaddafi was the reason for Libya’s success. Amerika and colonialism live on and you folks are happy about Amerika(and France) taking over again.
Libya was the best place in all of Africa to live and raise and educate a family. Now, the people will suffer. The corporations/elite will prosper just like in your country.
Who’s Been Brainwashed?
Gaddafi – A Libyan Hero
By Philip Pank in Tripoli
May 12, 2011
Muammar Gaddafi has announced plans to dismantle the Government, hand the riches from Africa’s biggest oil reserves to the people and nationalise foreign oil operations that have recently been allowed back into the country. The announcement has left diplomats and the 40 overseas oil companies operating in the country on edge.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28081.htm
————————-
The basic reason is simple. Gaddafi confronts their power. He confronts the status quo of the Empire. He demands greater power for Africa and the African Union. He demands greater power for smaller countries in the United Nations. Gaddafi calls for investigations of past wars. He is calling for a new way forward that reduces the powers of any one or a few countries to dominate the world.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28079.htm
————————————
Libya Fact Sheet
http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/05/libya-fact-sheet/#more-32522
———————————–
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27956.htm
People in Libya were rich. Libya had the highest gross domestic product (GDP) at purchasing power parity (PPP) per capita of all of Africa. The government took care to ensure that everyone in the country shared in the wealth. Libya had the highest Human Development Index of any country on the continent. The wealth was distributed equally. In Libya, a lower percentage of people lived below the poverty line than in the Netherlands.
Some nice examples of ignorant prejudice on display here from Al B. Quirky and sockpuppet, and from MarkNS. It’s too early to be either optimistic or pessimistic about the outcome – there are certainly divisions among the rebels (most notably, those in the west, who have done much more of the fighting, are unlikely simply to take orders from the TNC in Benghazi), and some Islamists, but the dogmatic certainty that either civil war or an “Islamist hellhole” is inevitable appears to have little justification other than “They’re mooslems.”
As for NATO: of course it did not intervene out of humanitarian concern, and of course it exceeded the UNSC mandate; once Benghazi and Misrata were secured from Gadhafi’s vengeance, I’d rather have seen pressure on both sides to negotiate. None of this necessarily means the net result will not be an improvement for the Libyan people. Gadhafi was a worthless, borderline crazy tyrant and, unlike in Iraq and Afghanistan, there is no foreign occupation, nor is one in prospect. What’s needed from the outside world in the immediate aftermath of Gadhafi’s fall is humanitarian aid, and a resumption of trade links.
Funny that; not many Libyans seem to agree. If they had, there’s no way the Libyan army could have been driven out of Benghazi and other eastern cities, Misrata, Zawiya and other cities before any NATO intervention; nor would Tripoli have fallen so easily.
Here’s a quote from joed’s first link:
So, after 40 years, Gadhafi himself said he regarded the administration and state economy as having failed. Not really a great advertisement for the “Brother Leader”, is it? And if the “Basic People Congresses” were really the country’s top executive and legislative bodies, why would they need Gadhafi’s invitation “to consider such reform”? Why, indeed, would there have been such widespread corruption?
Only a complete lackwit could think that a political point is made by misspelling “America”.
Of course the USA and other rich states will do their best to take advantage of the situation. Now is the time to mobilise support for the Libyan people’s right to choose their own government, and control their own resources.
“LOL! They’ve already been governing most of the country for months, why should they suddenly break up now?”
Because Arabs are vicious evil subhuman beasts whose unceasing lust for blood can only be contained by the boot of their wise and kindly white masters on their throats.
Duh!
What the US-NATO-EU hopes to achieve is to eliminate the half-reliable partner Gaddafi and replace him with a neo-liberal oriented government that will do their bidding: sign on AFRICOM, kick China out, reverse the government central bank to a BIS private enterprise, continue using dollars of course, and have the lackey leaders join in their permanent war age throughout the Middle East and Africa.
New neo-liberal socio-economic policies would eliminate what the Gaddafi government has provided the entire population through state subsidies funded with oil export sales: the highest standard of living in Africa with free, universal health and education care, and the possibility of studying abroad at state expense; $50,000 for each new married couple to get started with; non-interest state loans; subsidized prices of cars much lower than in Europe; the cheapest gasoline and bread prices in the world (similar to Venezuela); no taxes for those working in agriculture.
This is not to say that Gaddafi is all that one would want in a leader, but he is definitely not as bad as most of US-NATO allies, such as dictators in the Middle East and some in Africa, Asia, and certainly Israel. Their friendly governments in Saudia Arabia—which sent troops to good neighbor Bahrain to murder hundreds of unarmed protesters condoned by the US—Yemen, Oman, Jordon where the governments murder hundreds of unarmed protestors. In fact, the only armed insurrection occurring in the Arabic countries is in Libya. It seems the US doesn’t like supporting non-violent demonstrators and would rather see them dead. And that is yet another, and one of the most important, reasons for US-NATO taking over Libya: to stop the progressive, dynamic uproar throughout the Arabic world. If these mostly youth-led revolts could actually win, which would mean replacing the imperialist-backed system and not just a dictator here or there, it might lead to an anti-capitalist revolution.
http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/05/libya-fact-sheet/#more-32522
Libya Fact Sheet
by Ron Ridenour / May 5th, 2011
@joed 56
Dictators in Israel? What planet are you living on?
Libya “had” thanks to Gaddafi
the highest standard of living in Africa with free, universal health and education care, and the possibility of studying abroad at state expense; $50,000 for each new married couple to get started with; non-interest state loans…
http://dissidentvoice.org/2011/05/libya-fact-sheet/#more-32522
@57 Earth.
There may be an error or two in this linked article but don’t be too nit-picky. The idea is that you are brain washed about Libya and actual research will turn up a vastly different and much more livable Libya than your Govt has created for your belief system.
I suppose the massacre of over 1000 prisoners at Abu Salim prison in 1996 is an example of how enlightened Gaddafi’s regime was. Or how about the HIV trial ? Or the routine use of torture by State Security ? Another example of an enlightened regime I presume.
The 4 days school week is just about everywhere.
South Dakota, parts of California, parts of Oregon, that I know of. Maybe most places by now. This idea seems to be spreading like wild fire.
Well of course. The answer to inadequate school funding is, of course, to have less education.
So why does the first article you linked to remark on the extensive corruption? Why did Gadhafi himself say the administration and state economy had failed, 40 years after he seized power? Why did Gadhafi’s forces get driven out of several major cities before the NATO intervention, and after peaceful demonstrations were met with bullets? Why didn’t the people of Benghazi and Misrata rise up against the NATO-backed rebels in support of their beloved “Brother Leader”? The problem with people like you is that any psychopathic thug who mouths a few anti-imperialist slogans becomes worthy of support.
It is, of course, quite true that the US and its allies back the Saudi and Bahreni kleptocrats, supported Mubarak and Ben Ali as long as long as feasible, and are trying their best to stifle the Arab revolution. That is no reason to support an equally nepotistic and brutal tyrant such as Gadhafi. I doubt you would find many of those taking part in the uprisings in other Arab countries doing so.
Obama is a regular Che Guevara, except that his military intervention worked and will actually increase the freedom of those he intervened for.
History Pink is a regular Einstein, except that he’s ignorant and stupid.
Juan Cole exposes 10 myths of the Libyan War
http://www.juancole.com/
joed quotes:
Funny, the Wikipedia article that site gives as the source of this information actually contradicts it.
From the IMF data for GDP-PPP per capita for African countries:
1) Seychelles 23,428
2) Equatorial Guinea 18,143
3) Botswana 15,489
4) Gabon 15,021
5) Mauritius 14,097
6) Libya 13,805
From the World Bank data:
1) Equatorial Guinea 34,824
2) Seychelles 22,428
3) Libya 16,425
From CIA:
1) Equatorial Guinea 36,600
2) Seychelles 23,200
3) Gabon 14,500
4) Libya and Botswana 14,000
Interesting bit in the news this morning. The Republicans (McCain specifically) is saying “great”, but ” we regret that this success was so long in coming due to the failure of the United States to employ the full weight of our airpower.” IOW Obama is to blame for it taking so long.
I seem to recall that a little while ago (March?) Republicans were blaming (or getting ready to blame) Obama for doing anything at all about it.
Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
David Utidjian,
Interesting contrast with the UK, where the official opposition supported the Libyan intervention (and, in sharp contrast to Iraq and Afghanistan, there have been almost no protests against it). Whatever one thinks of the NATO bombing, and the leaders who pushed for it (Sarkozy and Cameron) or went along with it (Obama), at this stage it looks like a political success for them.
Was the shouting anything along the lines of “Say hello to my little friend!”?
Richard Smith @69
I prefer the classical: “Top ‘O The World, Ma! ”
of Cody Jarret.
Yeah, right.
LOL.
Do you know he claimed Libya had no government? He claimed the Libyan people governed itself “directly”. He claimed he had no job from which he could retreat!
In other words, for himself.
Means, for Libya, which in turn means, for himself.
And yet, they rebelled, because Gaddafi was a crazy dictator.
Dollars, or EU?
You just contradicted yourself.
And everybody knows it’s far too late to kick China out of anywhere. Come on.
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
That’s how you react to Israel being called a dictature?
You’re a treasure!
I’m honestly shocked. That’s scary!
Bingo.
The article mentions pickup trucks driving by, full of people firing their guns into the air.
I wonder how many times someone does that, and when they finally get to where they’re going can’t participate in the fun because they have no ammo left?
..or can’t participate, because some other stupid idiot fired into the air, and they they happened to be underneath the falling bullets?
Damn, blockquote fail, or in my case blockwote…
@joed
Why don’t you delusional Gaddafi cultists get out? I have already had enough of your kinds in the Al Jazeera blogs. Go and poison other discussions.
joed also quotes:
I followed the link for this statement in the original post and once again I arrived at Wikipedia. This time, however, the article does not provide any poverty statistics for Libya. Actually, it only mentions Libya in a footnote: “About one-third of Libyans live at or below the national poverty line.[citation needed]”. You can compare this number with the 10.5% of Dutchmen below the poverty line.
So, I’m sorry, but I think Mr. Rothscum is simply making shit up.
27.39% of statistics are made up.
Exactly. And 78.1% (+- 2%) of statistics favorable to the point being sited are made up.