Gotta love Jamie and Adam, even if the later shows are fluffy and boring.
Sven DiMilosays
There may or may not be foxes in atheist holes, btw.
Holes in atheist foxes? Oh, my, yes.
briankspearssays
Me likey.
Weed Monkeysays
Oh, this made my day!
Hank Foxsays
PZ, you make me think of an alternative explanation for the hypothesis:
Maybe it’s not true that there are no atheists in foxholes, but if there are FEWER atheists in foxholes, maybe it’s because they’re too smart to get sucked into an idiot enterprise such as war.
(And before anybody gets all “Oh, our brave soldiers” on me, think hard about the rationale behind Vietnam, Iraq, and even Afghanistan. The first was pointless, the last two were started because we had an evil fool for a president.)
Hank Foxsays
PZ, you make me think of an alternative explanation for the hypothesis:
Maybe it’s not true that there are no atheists in foxholes, but if there are FEWER atheists in foxholes, maybe it’s because they’re too smart to get sucked into an idiot enterprise such as war.
(And before anybody gets all “Oh, our brave soldiers” on me, think hard about the rationale behind Vietnam, Iraq, and even Afghanistan. The first was pointless, the last two were started because we had an evil fool for a president.)
Hank Foxsays
OK, that wasn’t completely my fault.
Andyosays
I actually think the military would be better if it were gayer.
vanharrissays
Hank, i thought you were blaming it on an evil fool?
carrythebannersays
@Hank Fox:
There’s a great song (“Razorblades” by American Steel) which says:
“If there’s no atheists
In the trenches
I think that maybe
they came to their senses”
Cerberussays
Hank-
Actually, I don’t have any good raw numbers, but according to the non-scientific testimony of a number of soldiers, war seems to actually breed more atheists than it converts, both because it takes insular kids far away from their original culture and makes them interact one to one with people of different cultures, and more importantly because it dumps them in a chaotic hell-hole where senseless tragedies and injustices regularly occur.
It’s really hard to sustain a belief in God when that Sergeant who nearly got everyone killed ends up promoted to a cushy indoor job and that kid who got everyone’s back and who seemed to be fully alive got taken down by friendly fire right in front of you.
From what I’ve heard, the military breeds atheists, especially for the duration of the war, though they may slip back to have some peace from the nightmares of PTSD.
sudonim2says
Behold the Jamie emoticon! /:€
ConcernedJoesays
Cerberus – get your point – rational
Let me dust off my premises (old man bays at moon)
Most so called believers (those sane and educated) are atheists are the covers. They believe in believing and the value (social and like comfort food) of believing in the standard line; they may mouth the standard lines and walk the standard walk but they are at best deists in their actual practical belief in a higher power.
Test 1: your beloved child deathly sick – you can pick one of two things: all the holiest people in the world’s earnest and well formed prayers, or get expert secular medical attention.
Test 2: you are in that proverbial foxhole; you can chose one of the following: drop your weapons and/or cease all tactical actions and with that get all the holiest people in the world’s earnest and well formed prayers for your safety/salvation, or properly use your weapons and brains and skills to survive.
I know apologists will flay away with why god is not a monkey on a rope and all that — but…. if your are faithful you have to have faith in something right? If you relegate your god to irrelevance – well just what is your god?
I also feel this test is appropriate for all those wringing their hands over clumps of cells vs. born fully functioning people: big fire you can save 1 million petri dishes each with properly fertilized human cell or (that is an exclusive OR) ONE 5 year old child. If you are not insane you will pick …..?? not even close for most of us I suspect.
I just feel there are many many more atheists – professing beliefs is not enough – doing rituals is not enough. If you are faithful and a “true” believer then be one when the rubber really meets the road — or else get some intellectual honesty!
Rey Foxsays
Could be the driving force behind the heavy evangelical presence in the military these days. Their faith, and its associated (shall we say, eschatological?) missions need extra special reinforcement.
Silisays
I actually think the military would be better if it were gayer.
But gays are too precious to send into war! The prime concern of the US military is to protect the gays. One gay man is worth seven US soldiers.
/Onion
RamblinDudesays
My on view on this matter of atheists in foxholes is not scientific, either, but I very strongly suspect that deep within us, and I mean all of us—even the most ardent faithhead willing to die for his/her beliefs—we all know that we are organic, and are intimately connected to the universe as processes, not spirits. At some level we know the difference between reality and wishful thinking. We know that the images of the deities we worship are created out of our imaginations. Our bodies know it.
We may be conditioned from birth to be preoccupied with the specific configurations of thought instilled in us by the culture we grow up in, but there’s a deeper awareness buried underneath this strata of brain activity that knows that the whole elaborate structure of any belief system that is not born from genuine perception will fall apart and crumble if we don’t keep our attention focused on it. This is the very reason why most organized religions demand that we be incessantly preoccupied with their specific beliefs, and warn of dire consequences if we are not. They have to keep repeating that there are no atheists in foxholes, because if we take our attention off whatever version of god they’ve sold us, and that we’ve attached ourselves to, then it all turns into vapor, and we realize that when it comes to any god contained within our thoughts, we are all atheists in our foxholes.
Maksays
You guys, I think that there are so many of us checking out this website that it crashed their server.
He used a colon and a Euro symbol. Looks best when a symmetrical font is used by the browser. Mine is displaying it with a serif font, making it quite lop-sided.
Kirksays
Maybe it’s not true that there are no atheists in foxholes, but if there are FEWER atheists in foxholes, maybe it’s because they’re too smart to get sucked into an idiot enterprise such as war.
I’m all for smart atheists, not a big fan of war in general, and you might be right, but I don’t think so.
I was an atheist in a foxhole, and I think there are lots of them, and probably following about the same distribution as they do through a random sampling of US society. There’s a chance that there is a higher percentage than in US society, because the US military must filter out the lower IQ population, so I would expect a higher atheist population in the military. But that’s just my speculation. It would be an interesting study.
It’s at least as hard for atheists to be open in the military as in other sub-cultures, and maybe a little harder. But they are there.
Phil is going to love this
Gotta love Jamie and Adam, even if the later shows are fluffy and boring.
There may or may not be foxes in atheist holes, btw.
Holes in atheist foxes? Oh, my, yes.
Me likey.
Oh, this made my day!
PZ, you make me think of an alternative explanation for the hypothesis:
Maybe it’s not true that there are no atheists in foxholes, but if there are FEWER atheists in foxholes, maybe it’s because they’re too smart to get sucked into an idiot enterprise such as war.
(And before anybody gets all “Oh, our brave soldiers” on me, think hard about the rationale behind Vietnam, Iraq, and even Afghanistan. The first was pointless, the last two were started because we had an evil fool for a president.)
PZ, you make me think of an alternative explanation for the hypothesis:
Maybe it’s not true that there are no atheists in foxholes, but if there are FEWER atheists in foxholes, maybe it’s because they’re too smart to get sucked into an idiot enterprise such as war.
(And before anybody gets all “Oh, our brave soldiers” on me, think hard about the rationale behind Vietnam, Iraq, and even Afghanistan. The first was pointless, the last two were started because we had an evil fool for a president.)
OK, that wasn’t completely my fault.
I actually think the military would be better if it were gayer.
Hank, i thought you were blaming it on an evil fool?
@Hank Fox:
There’s a great song (“Razorblades” by American Steel) which says:
“If there’s no atheists
In the trenches
I think that maybe
they came to their senses”
Hank-
Actually, I don’t have any good raw numbers, but according to the non-scientific testimony of a number of soldiers, war seems to actually breed more atheists than it converts, both because it takes insular kids far away from their original culture and makes them interact one to one with people of different cultures, and more importantly because it dumps them in a chaotic hell-hole where senseless tragedies and injustices regularly occur.
It’s really hard to sustain a belief in God when that Sergeant who nearly got everyone killed ends up promoted to a cushy indoor job and that kid who got everyone’s back and who seemed to be fully alive got taken down by friendly fire right in front of you.
From what I’ve heard, the military breeds atheists, especially for the duration of the war, though they may slip back to have some peace from the nightmares of PTSD.
Behold the Jamie emoticon! /:€
Cerberus – get your point – rational
Let me dust off my premises (old man bays at moon)
Most so called believers (those sane and educated) are atheists are the covers. They believe in believing and the value (social and like comfort food) of believing in the standard line; they may mouth the standard lines and walk the standard walk but they are at best deists in their actual practical belief in a higher power.
Test 1: your beloved child deathly sick – you can pick one of two things: all the holiest people in the world’s earnest and well formed prayers, or get expert secular medical attention.
Test 2: you are in that proverbial foxhole; you can chose one of the following: drop your weapons and/or cease all tactical actions and with that get all the holiest people in the world’s earnest and well formed prayers for your safety/salvation, or properly use your weapons and brains and skills to survive.
I know apologists will flay away with why god is not a monkey on a rope and all that — but…. if your are faithful you have to have faith in something right? If you relegate your god to irrelevance – well just what is your god?
I also feel this test is appropriate for all those wringing their hands over clumps of cells vs. born fully functioning people: big fire you can save 1 million petri dishes each with properly fertilized human cell or (that is an exclusive OR) ONE 5 year old child. If you are not insane you will pick …..?? not even close for most of us I suspect.
I just feel there are many many more atheists – professing beliefs is not enough – doing rituals is not enough. If you are faithful and a “true” believer then be one when the rubber really meets the road — or else get some intellectual honesty!
Could be the driving force behind the heavy evangelical presence in the military these days. Their faith, and its associated (shall we say, eschatological?) missions need extra special reinforcement.
But gays are too precious to send into war! The prime concern of the US military is to protect the gays. One gay man is worth seven US soldiers.
/Onion
My on view on this matter of atheists in foxholes is not scientific, either, but I very strongly suspect that deep within us, and I mean all of us—even the most ardent faithhead willing to die for his/her beliefs—we all know that we are organic, and are intimately connected to the universe as processes, not spirits. At some level we know the difference between reality and wishful thinking. We know that the images of the deities we worship are created out of our imaginations. Our bodies know it.
We may be conditioned from birth to be preoccupied with the specific configurations of thought instilled in us by the culture we grow up in, but there’s a deeper awareness buried underneath this strata of brain activity that knows that the whole elaborate structure of any belief system that is not born from genuine perception will fall apart and crumble if we don’t keep our attention focused on it. This is the very reason why most organized religions demand that we be incessantly preoccupied with their specific beliefs, and warn of dire consequences if we are not. They have to keep repeating that there are no atheists in foxholes, because if we take our attention off whatever version of god they’ve sold us, and that we’ve attached ourselves to, then it all turns into vapor, and we realize that when it comes to any god contained within our thoughts, we are all atheists in our foxholes.
You guys, I think that there are so many of us checking out this website that it crashed their server.
Here’s an interesting take on Pascal’s Wager:
http://diagorasofmelos.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/homer-simpson-answers-pascals-wager/
FSM bless Adam and Jamie.
In the Marines we call them “Fighting Holes“
Number 13, how did you make the Jamie emoticon?
He used a colon and a Euro symbol. Looks best when a symmetrical font is used by the browser. Mine is displaying it with a serif font, making it quite lop-sided.
I’m all for smart atheists, not a big fan of war in general, and you might be right, but I don’t think so.
I was an atheist in a foxhole, and I think there are lots of them, and probably following about the same distribution as they do through a random sampling of US society. There’s a chance that there is a higher percentage than in US society, because the US military must filter out the lower IQ population, so I would expect a higher atheist population in the military. But that’s just my speculation. It would be an interesting study.
It’s at least as hard for atheists to be open in the military as in other sub-cultures, and maybe a little harder. But they are there.
http://www.maaf.info/
Heh
And I approve this message.
Brilliant
I’m almost certain I’ve had that exact talk while being rocketed.