Praise the Lord! Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven!
What a great ethos.
harald hardradasays
you’re being unfair to al capone
i delight in seeing a hypocrite of religiosity trip up but that doesn’t justify our tax system — all countries use fiat currencies because it’s easy to make the populace believe they can get something for nothing under a fiat regime — the government doesn’t need any tax revenue because it can instead print more dollars as needed: the amount of fiat money saved in doing away with tax administration would be huge — but governments don’t want the populace to see the fraud that lies behind fiat currency, which can only weaken as time goes by, so they keep their tax systems going
The “Doctor” ended the fiasco with Dinosaur Adventure Land permits last month and he still does not learn. I checked his iternary and he does not have a speaking engagement until July 21. I wonder if he will allowed to leave the United States since he is heading to South Africa in August.
I wonder if this means Dinosaur Adventure Land can be bought dirt cheap? If it was converted to a reality based park it would be able to make money because of the low cost, would be able to “educate” visitors about evolution and, best of all, would be a real kick in creationist asses. How could God let an insurlt like that go unpunished?
Anybody got the resources to do it?
Charles Windersays
Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. –the bible
In his defense, maybe Kent just took his bible a bit too literally, and mistakenly paid all of his taxes to Caesar instead of the IRS.
dkewsays
The Wikipedia article on Hovind already includes today’s arrest.
I Googled “Hovind arrest” and found references to his previous arrests, and discussions of them by the Fundies: You can fool some of the people all of the time…
Federal Prison Inmates Convert to Creationism
– Evangelistic prisoner offers 250 cartons of cigarettes to anyone who can prove evolution “is the only possible way” that the universe and life arose.
deadman_932says
Please: In the future, all responses to Hovind’s $250,000 evolution challenge should be sent to the Federal Correctional Institution, Coleman, Florida, c/o “Bubba”
Thank You.
Kristjan Wagersays
i delight in seeing a hypocrite of religiosity trip up but that doesn’t justify our tax system — all countries use fiat currencies because it’s easy to make the populace believe they can get something for nothing under a fiat regime — the government doesn’t need any tax revenue because it can instead print more dollars as needed: the amount of fiat money saved in doing away with tax administration would be huge — but governments don’t want the populace to see the fraud that lies behind fiat currency, which can only weaken as time goes by, so they keep their tax systems going
This is perhaps one of the most ignorant paragraphs I’ve ever read in the comments at Pharyngula.
No, the governments can’t just print more money – there are two very good reasons for that.
The first one is that all countries are operating in a global economy, and their buying power depends on other countries trusting the buying power of their money (i.e. if country A uses their own currency X to buy from country B, country B trust that they can exchange the X they have back to currency Y, which B uses). If countries just start printing money in the way suggested, the whole concept of global trade and currencies would collaps, and we’d be back to trading goods for goods.
The second reason, is that even if the country isn’t part of the global economy, sending more money in circulation will result in inflation. Given the amount that would be needed to get printed for this model, it would be hyperinflation.
Also, tax administration is a very little part of the total government administration, so while the amount might seem large, in reality doing away with it, would have little effect on government spending, especially not in countries with unemployment benifits (the tax people would need that, after getting fired).
Jason Malloysays
What do Kent Hovind and Al Capone have in common?
A premature death from syphilis?
. . . please?
losays
The church has strict rules on such transgressions and whilst child-abuse may be forgiven tax evasion certainly may not (neither by the church nor especially NOT by god). Now the good samitarian is going to hell for sure. I wonder how he is gonna buy himself out of there, but i am sure he piled up a small fortune somewhere.
There is also the possibility that (according to many sources -which i don`t have to quote as faith will do that for me) he might like it in hell. Hearsay has it that hell is a way more comfortable place to be in contrast to the curch.
harald hardradasays
kristjan, do you really think that fiat currencies don’t necessarily result in inflation anyway? — do you really think that countries aren’t already each trying to competitively devalue their fiat currencies? — inflation is growth in the supply of money & credit that exceeds the growth needed — the whole point is that fiat currencies are starting to fray: even the respected swiss franc will go bust — but it’s psychology, not quantity, that will trigger the transition from today’s unnoticed inflation to something much worse: the process isn’t linear — you’re welcome to keep your faith in today’s fiat currencies but as unaware as the american populace is of the fed’s true object of fostering inflation, no amount of make-believe inflation-fighting by the fed will save the dollar once the populace senses that it’s better to hold goods than to hold dollars — meanwhile, kristjan, you’ll need more than luck to survive the coming crisis: although the dollar, for instance, may rally for several months now, it will then resume its fall, but other countries’ fiat currencies will only try to outrace the dollar to the bottom & then they’ll all collapse
i won’t be seeking your investment advice, kristjan
Kristjan Wagersays
kristjan, do you really think that fiat currencies don’t necessarily result in inflation anyway? — do you really think that countries aren’t already each trying to competitively devalue their fiat currencies
Again, you fail to grasp the meaning of operating in a global market. Currencies don’t operate in a vacumn, and the long term effects of inflation, is such that it’s not a tool used for regulating the economy. Short term benifits, like increased exports, are not enough to compensate for long term problems like increased costs of import products (e.g. oil) and loss of jobs.
inflation is growth in the supply of money & credit that exceeds the growth needed
Your definition is trivial, simplistic and incorrect. Inflation is strictly speaking the fall of market value or purchasing power of money. This can be caused by what you state (though this is not considered real inflation by many economists), but it can also be cause by such things as increased prices on import items.
the whole point is that fiat currencies are starting to fray: even the respected swiss franc will go bust
Source please. And what this have to do with your first post?
but it’s psychology, not quantity, that will trigger the transition from today’s unnoticed inflation to something much worse: the process isn’t linear
Today’s inflation is rather noticed, or haven’t you heard about the prices of certain items going up in the US?
you’re welcome to keep your faith in today’s fiat currencies but as unaware as the american populace is of the fed’s true object of fostering inflation, no amount of make-believe inflation-fighting by the fed will save the dollar once the populace senses that it’s better to hold goods than to hold dollars — meanwhile, kristjan, you’ll need more than luck to survive the coming crisis: although the dollar, for instance, may rally for several months now, it will then resume its fall, but other countries’ fiat currencies will only try to outrace the dollar to the bottom & then they’ll all collapse
So many words, so little wisdom.
The US dollar is indeed in for a rough time, as Cheney’s financial advisers seems to be aware of, but the global economy as a whole is rather healthy, and while a tourbulent US dollar will have effects on the rest of the world, the Euro will stay rather strong, as the EU economy is more rubust than the current US economy.
You seem to have a US-centric, and incredible bad, understanding of the way economics works.
Countries are usually not interested in inflation.
i won’t be seeking your investment advice, kristjan
I don’t give investment advice.
Lya Kahlosays
IT couldn’t have happened to a more deserving guy.
I had no idea when I signed onto Pharyngula this morning that I was going to get a lesson in the dynamics of currency in the global market.
Kick ass.
harald hardradasays
kristjan, you have no faith in human beings — you say we need them to collect taxes because otherwise we’d have to pay them welfare — it doesn’t occur to you that they’d contribute to society if they weren’t collecting taxes
today’s inflation is only noticed in an acceptable way — all central banks aim at mild inflation rates
funny that you resort to saying i’m u.s.-oriented when in fact the fed controls who gets fellowships & grants in economics in american universities: that’s because the fed doesn’t want the populace to see the fraud that lies behind fiat currencies
you’re wrong about the euro: watch it start to weaken as the dollar strengthens — then they’ll both go downhill
i shouldn’t want to be in your shoes during the coming crisis: you’re part of the herd that gets slaughtered when the economy undergoes a major shift
Kristjan Wagersays
funny that you resort to saying i’m u.s.-oriented when in fact the fed controls who gets fellowships & grants in economics in american universities: that’s because the fed doesn’t want the populace to see the fraud that lies behind fiat currencies
Are you aware that there are economical studies outside the US?
you’re wrong about the euro: watch it start to weaken as the dollar strengthens — then they’ll both go downhill
The dollar strengthens? Interesting concept. Is that before or after the increase in the deficit have stopped? Do the bonds owned by Chinese and Japanese banks have any influence on this?
You, harald, is as ignorant about your chosen subject as any ID proponent is about evolution. Read the basic text books, try to understand the mechanisms behind monetary policies and global trade.
harald hardradasays
kristjan, i don’t listen to american economists because they only propagandize
the dollar will strengthen for several months — the effect of the growing deficit takes time to do its work but then the dollar will fall & so will the euro & so will all other fiat currencies as they scramble to outdo each other in racing into the abyss
I am nervous that he was let out on bail, but I have a question: If he gets swept up in the Rapture before the trial, would that constitute bail-jumping? And would Dog be able to go after him?
Inquiring minds want to know….
gravitybearsays
harald, are you heavily invested in gold, by chance?
Because you sound just like the waiting-for-societal-collapse-and-then-my-gold-will-make-me-rich kind of people.
Just wondering.
harald hardradasays
gravitybear, i’m delighted to field a humorous question — i’ve no loyalty to any particular vehicle — i’ll keep my opinions on gold to myself except to say gold has its long-term ups & downs, punctuated by violent short-term rallies & slumps — my one tip, though, is to invest in places & in vehicles that the gullible herd ignores
I got this e-mail from Brandt Dary after I informed him about Hovind’s latest arrest.
Hey, if you’ve got beef with Kent, good for you. I don’t care what he’s done as a person, I believe in what he believes in (regarding God, the age of the earth, and dinosaurs).
Are you a Christian?
I have sent two comments but he has not posted them.
Apparently, there is a flurry of blog postings of comments of his arrest.
Harald:
The interesting thing about fiat money as opposed to fidutuary money is that it actually works. Unfortunately, to make it work, you need to play by certain rules, key amongst which is “the total amount of money you have in circulation is worth a given amount, regardless of the number of banknotes that make up that total“.
When America was on the gold standard, there was a major depression every few decades. Since they switched to fiat money, not so much. In fact, no country practicing Keynesian monitary policy (which requires fiat money) has t mass poverty is a bad thing.ever had a depression.
What you do sometimes get with fiat money (when not coupled with Keynsian policies) is hyperinflation leading to a depression. This is caused by attempting to pay debts by printing more money, leading to the currency unit being drastically devalued. Generally, this leads to a death spiral that can only be stopped by abandoning the existing currency, and switching to a better regulated fiat currency. Look at Germany in the late 40’s, or Turkey in the last couple of years for what happens when governments try to balance the books in the way you suggest.
Of course, the real question is: if governments the world over can declare 0 taxation, and can increase the value of the economy, why don’t they do that? I’m pretty sure that if a presidential candidate gave a decent explanation of ho taxes were completely unneccessary, and that everyone could just declare how much monitary worth they wanted, and it would magically in their bank accounts, they would win by a landslide. And yet, no politician, anywhere, ever, has tried this – maybe you should.
Thought experiment:
I set up my own private economy, the Quatloo. To begin with, I print 1,000 one quatloo notes, so my net worth is 1,000 quatloos. The next day, I print 1,000,000 one-thousand quatloo notes. Am I now a million times as rich? Can I buy myself a big house and start collecting classic cars?
To sum up:
Countries that have an income of real value (in the form of taxes, generally, though state-owned businesses could earn enough that taxes aren’t needed) have fairly steady economies. Countries that manage their economies according to the principles you advocate tend to quickly descend into depression and mass poverty. I’ve always thought that mass poverty is a bad thing.
Of course, if all these countries know that fiat money will lead inexorably to their utter destruction, you’d think that it would be less popular than it is. I mean, why are 3/4 of the world’s nations using fiat money, if it’s so inherently flawed? Why would so many independent nations court their own fall like this? Why not position themselves to avoid it, and become the pre-eminant economy after America and Europe go down the toilet?
harald hardradasays
wintermute, it’s fun talking with you because you don’t rely on name-calling — i disagree that gold was at fault for the great depression of 1873-95, for instance
what started the great depression in 1929 was the excessive amount of money & credit created during the 1920s that led to a huge misallocation of capital: it’s the opposite of what milton friedman says, but he’s never paid any mind to the facts
the world only went off the gold standard in 1971, so keynes has had but a brief reign & it’s doomed to fail — i’m glad, though, that the majority agrees with you: i’m not clever enough to put bread on the table by thinking things through for myself: i just bet against the majority — likewise i’m not clever enough to get in on the ground floor of a hot investment: i’ve had to crawl in by the cellar window & wait for years in the dark — once i came near to being homeless, but all told i’ve made it this far, thanks to the majority that disagrees with me
xebecssays
I think what HH is proposing is that in lieu of collecting taxes, the government simply compute how much it needs and print that much.
This is one of those ideas that is simple, elegant and wrong.
With taxes, there is resistance to the growth of government expenditures from those who pay the taxes. The alternative suggested above depends entirely on the restraint of those printing the money.
I believe that one day we will once again have wise, effective government. But I don’t think it will ever be that wise!
Kristjan Wagersays
the world only went off the gold standard in 1971
This is a classic case of misrepresentation.
The gold standard have been used on and off, but the global gold standard started with the creation of Germany in 1871. The German currency used the gold standard, and graduately other countries joined the stadard, most noticable to you, was probably that they US did it (officially) in 1900.
The gold standard was however abandonned by the UK in 1931 and the US in 1933. The 1933 London conference let to the abandonning of the international gold standard.
Then in 1944 to 1971, the Bretton Woods system was created and used.
After 1971 the current system have been in use.
So in other words, the period from 1971 till now (35 years) is as long as the periods with gold standards.
And the current global economy has shown no signs of collapsing anything soon.
i disagree that gold was at fault for the great depression of 1873-95, for instance
I’m not suggesting that gold caused depressions, but rather, that once a depression started, there was no way to adjust the flow of money to end the depression. We still have recessions, we simply now have te tools to prevent them developing into depressions.
what started the great depression in 1929 was the excessive amount of money & credit created during the 1920s that led to a huge misallocation of capital: it’s the opposite of what milton friedman says, but he’s never paid any mind to the facts
What started the Great Depression was banks overextending themselves, lending 10 or 20 times as much money as they had assets to cover those loans. As a huge number of these loans were to farmers, a bone-dry summer meant that these loans could not be repaid, and the banks foreclosed on (now worthless) farms. This means that the paper assets the banks had suddenly disappeared, and lead to a loss of confidence on the part of investors, who all rushed to withdraw their savings. The banks then defaulted on their own loans, and were foreclosed upon in turn…
In short, it was caused by banks thinking that they could loan more money than thy had, and getting caught out when it all went wrong. They were using fiducuary money at the time, but the prnciple is the same as when a government funds public spending by printing more money.
the world only went off the gold standard in 1971, so keynes has had but a brief reign & it’s doomed to fail
Well, “the world” has never had an integrated economic system that would allow a blanket statement like that to be meaningful. However, Britain abandoned the gold standard in 1931, and America followed in 1933, so fiat currency has had a longer life than you seem to think. Keynsian policies are currently operated in over 150 countries around the world, leading to a massive body of evidence as to how it works. Admittedly, this is a far shorter run than commodoty money had, but all the evidence is that it works far. Do you have any evidence beyond gut instinct that fiat money is intrinsically flawed? Why is it doomed to fail?
i’m glad, though, that the majority agrees with you: i’m not clever enough to put bread on the table by thinking things through for myself: i just bet against the majority
The majority will tell you not to bet the house on a busted flush, or that “buy high, sell low” is a bad idea. Betting against the majority (especially where, as here, you’re talking about a majority of experts) is a good way to starve to death. In fact, you statement can be re-written as “I’m not clever enough to put bread on the table by thinking things through for myself, but the people who are clever enough to do so are all wrong.”
Is that really what you think?
harald hardradasays
the world went off the gold standard in 1971 because the dollar was & still is the world’s reserve currency & till 1971 foreign central banks could turn in their dollars for gold — roosevelt took americans off the gold standard but he kept the gold exchange window open to foreigners
wintermute, you won’t believe this & i’m glad most folks won’t because my livelihood depends on it — during any major economic trend, the experts tend to get more & more off base till they’re nearly all wrong & then the trend goes haywire
Well, you can still change your dollars for gold. It’s called “buying gold”. But since 1933, the values of the US Dollar and gold have varied independently of each other. If Americahad remained on the gold standard, then one US Dollar would have bought the same amount of gold in 1933 as in 1971, and at all points between. This is refuted by the historical record.
I’m certainly no expert when it comes to economic history, and I’m not boundlessly optimistic when it comes to fiscal projections (for example, I think Bush’s plans to cut taxes while funding an expensive, never-ending war will negatively impact America’s economy), but I will tend to believe researched, published and Nobel Prize-winning papers over someone whose only evidence is “economists don’t know anything”, especially when they make claims flatly contradicted by the historical record, and claim not to be clever enough to think things through themselves.
Can you provide me with something to open my eyes to? Do you have any evidence that the world’s economies are about to collapse, beyond bald assertion? Are there any economists who agree with you?
Kristjan Wagersays
Well, I did find this very economical argument for the gold standard:
Commodity money is in conformity with the Eighth Commandment: “Thou Shall Not Steal,” and Leviticus 19:35 & 36, which says that one should not falsify weights and measures. Honesty in business dealings is considered consistent with holiness and with moral law.
While this was the argument against fiat money:
Fiat money violates the Eighth Commandment and the admonition that one should not tamper with weights and measures. Because it is used for future payment, money is said to serve as a store of value. The generation of fiat money, which is produced without work–how much more work is involved in producing a $100 bill as opposed to a $1 dollar bill?–dilutes that which has been saved and that which has been promised for future payment. It is the same as stealing.
Sorry about that – I apparently didn’t close the ancher tag properly
386sxsays
Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.
One thing I never understood about that passage is the part where, since there’s a picture of Caesar on the money, therefore the money belongs to Caesar. I know that’s supposed to be all “wise” and everything, but to me it just sounds like some idiotic rhetorical trick or something. I guess it must be too “deep” for me.
harald hardradasays
the price of gold was fixed to the dollar till nixon’s time — when roosevelt confiscated americans’ gold holdings he also adjusted the price of gold but it stayed fixed at that new price — keynes has only held sway since 1971 because all the world’s other currencies were tethered to gold through the dollar
i’m a non-practicing agnostic: it reassures me to know that everybody thinks my views are wrong & i’m not out to convert anybody — how else can i make a living?
fiat currencies will take awhile longer to lose their public esteem — several years at least
Kristjan Wagersays
keynes has only held sway since 1971 because all the world’s other currencies were tethered to gold through the dollar
So all other currencies were pegged to the dollar? That’s an interesting idea…. Completely wrong of course, but interesting.
harald hardradasays
they weren’t pegged but the central banks, till 1971, made every effort to keep things stable, which is why i use the word tethered: some flexibility came into play — since then, foreign exchange volatility has gone way up
Kristjan Wagersays
Ok, I grant you that you have stopped being US-centric, and gone over to being Western-centric. Look at the inflation around the world pre-1971, for example, Brazil had rapant inflation already since 1964.
Now, back to your idea that a (de facto) gold standard was what kept inflation away, and that it was after doing away with it, that inflation started happening.
Well, it sounds plausible, until you look at the facts – it was because of the rising inflation in the US that the Bretton Woods system was done away with (source: The Euro versus the Dollar: Resolving a Historical Puzzle – .pdf)
harald hardradasays
nixon closed the gold window in 1971 because he didn’t want to lose more gold — he wanted to head off a stampede that would have deep-sixed the dollar — the guns & butter strategy started by lyndon johnson was at breaking point — other countries went along with the gag because they all hated being tied to gold themselves
brazil had problems because it was still an economic satellite of america & europe — neither america nor europe has ever had anything but its own interest at heart
…the EU economy is more rubust than the current US economy.
No, it’s not.
The Eurozone economy has been growing more slowly than the U.S. economy for several years, and their unemployment rates continue to be much higher than America’s.
Checking out The Economist magazine would be a good place to start.
Kristjan Wagersays
The Eurozone economy has been growing more slowly than the U.S. economy for several years, and their unemployment rates continue to be much higher than America’s.
None of these things are really factors when you consider robustness, though some consider unemployement an indicator of it. However, unemployment is not necessarily comparable across countries, as it is messured differently in different countries (for example, it’s well known that the US undercounts its unemployment compared to other countries).
Issues like GDP (where the EU is slightly bigger than the US), trade deficits (no comparision), foreign debt (again no comparision), inflation (similar), and trade dependecies are on the other hand factors for evaluating the robustness of an economy.
Checking out The Economist magazine would be a good place to start.
The Economist is indeed a quite good magazine, though it has a decided EU-sceptic bias, and have had that for as long as the EU has existed.
However, if you want to understand the basics of economics, the Economist is a bit too simplistic. A good text book would be better for the purpose.
Kristjan Wager, you write that GNP growth and labor force participation are not really factors when considering the robustness of economies, and then you write that the size of the EU GDP is a factor in deciding that the Eurozone economy is more robust than that of the U.S.
Which is it? Size of GNP matters, or not?
And, if it does, then doesn’t the more rapid growth of the U.S. economy mean that the size of the EU economy will be soon be overshadowed by that of America ?
You also write that it’s well known that the U.S. undercounts its unemployment compared to other countries.
Are you then attempting to assert that unemployment in the U.S. is actually higher than that of the Eurozone ?
Even if you were to count American unemployment in such a way as to make an apples-to-apples comparison to unemployment in the EU, you’d find that European unemployment is much higher, and also that a smaller percentage of the Euro population participates in the labor force.
Expressed as a percentage of the entire population, far more Americans work than do Europeans.
I do agree that a good textbook is helpful in understanding the basics of economics. Have you read any ?
Michael: Growth may not be stable growth.
Also, he’s simply asserting that the unemployement numbers are not comperable – there are people in the US who are considered employed who would be considered unemployed if they were in the same position in the EU.
I sorta suspect that the US and EU have very similar numbers of “real” unemployement. It’s interesting to claim that sort of thing as you and I have both done – but evidence is more useful.
Also: Yes, the Fed pushes for inflation. This is true. They do this because deflation destroys peoples lives very very quickly, while inflation, even rampant inflation, is not as bad.
Furthermore, a low but non-zero inflation rate will promote investment over simple savings – which is not a bad thing at all.
There is a difference between a 1% rate of inflation and a 20% rate. One is pretty good. One is categorically bad.
Also, fiat currency is not a “fraud” – it is a social system, wherein something with no intrinsic value is agreed upon as a medium of exchange in order to simplify exchanges and to make it possible for someone who has nothing tangible that another person wants to still exchange with that person without having to first exchange with others.
Kristjan Wagersays
Which is it? Size of GNP matters, or not?
Size of GNP matters, growth doesn’t. You have countries with explosive growth in GNP that wouldn’t by any means be considered a rubust economy. Also, size of GNP is only one factor out of many.
Even if you were to count American unemployment in such a way as to make an apples-to-apples comparison to unemployment in the EU, you’d find that European unemployment is much higher, and also that a smaller percentage of the Euro population participates in the labor force.
Expressed as a percentage of the entire population, far more Americans work than do Europeans.
Last time I looked at the numbers, 61% of the European population was part of the workforce, while about 70% of the US population was part of the workforce. Some of this is explained by the differences in demographics between Europe and the US.
I do not however make any claims upon which country have the biggest unemployment. As I said, they are messured differently in different countries.
Take the average “full-time” Walmart employee. They work 30 hours. In Denmark, such an employee would be considered 25% unemployed, at least if the person was looking for a full time job.
I do agree that a good textbook is helpful in understanding the basics of economics. Have you read any ?
Yes, I did manage to read one or two, back in the days when I studied economics.
Kristjan Wagersays
Also, fiat currency is not a “fraud” – it is a social system, wherein something with no intrinsic value is agreed upon as a medium of exchange in order to simplify exchanges and to make it possible for someone who has nothing tangible that another person wants to still exchange with that person without having to first exchange with others.
What is so funny, is that the same could be said of gold.
Couldn’t have happened to a nicer fellow.
Praise the Lord! Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven!
What a great ethos.
you’re being unfair to al capone
i delight in seeing a hypocrite of religiosity trip up but that doesn’t justify our tax system — all countries use fiat currencies because it’s easy to make the populace believe they can get something for nothing under a fiat regime — the government doesn’t need any tax revenue because it can instead print more dollars as needed: the amount of fiat money saved in doing away with tax administration would be huge — but governments don’t want the populace to see the fraud that lies behind fiat currency, which can only weaken as time goes by, so they keep their tax systems going
I spent ten whole minutes making this in photoshop:
http://derekrodgers.info/images/hovind.jpg
Kent is no stranger to crime, according to NNDB.com:
I couldn’t help but hear Freddy Freeloader when I read that in this context.
Al Capone was smart.
A-hahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Maybe there is a god after all . . .
The “Doctor” ended the fiasco with Dinosaur Adventure Land permits last month and he still does not learn. I checked his iternary and he does not have a speaking engagement until July 21. I wonder if he will allowed to leave the United States since he is heading to South Africa in August.
He he he he…
I am just all smiles right now.
Another one
rides the bus, er, bites the dust…I wonder if this means Dinosaur Adventure Land can be bought dirt cheap? If it was converted to a reality based park it would be able to make money because of the low cost, would be able to “educate” visitors about evolution and, best of all, would be a real kick in creationist asses. How could God let an insurlt like that go unpunished?
Anybody got the resources to do it?
Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. –the bible
In his defense, maybe Kent just took his bible a bit too literally, and mistakenly paid all of his taxes to Caesar instead of the IRS.
The Wikipedia article on Hovind already includes today’s arrest.
I Googled “Hovind arrest” and found references to his previous arrests, and discussions of them by the Fundies: You can fool some of the people all of the time…
I assume that Kent is waiting for the Tax Code to evolve.
Schadenfreude is like chocolate – naughty but so delicious…
What, Hovind is coming to South Africa.
Ah Google reveals!
http://www.mpowerministries.co.za/
Mmmh. On the 12th & the 13th he will be within Heckling Range. I think I will go and heckle.
Time to do some research.
PS Any bright ideas on how to make his speeches less effective would be welcome.
I can see the headlines now:
Please: In the future, all responses to Hovind’s $250,000 evolution challenge should be sent to the Federal Correctional Institution, Coleman, Florida, c/o “Bubba”
Thank You.
This is perhaps one of the most ignorant paragraphs I’ve ever read in the comments at Pharyngula.
No, the governments can’t just print more money – there are two very good reasons for that.
The first one is that all countries are operating in a global economy, and their buying power depends on other countries trusting the buying power of their money (i.e. if country A uses their own currency X to buy from country B, country B trust that they can exchange the X they have back to currency Y, which B uses). If countries just start printing money in the way suggested, the whole concept of global trade and currencies would collaps, and we’d be back to trading goods for goods.
The second reason, is that even if the country isn’t part of the global economy, sending more money in circulation will result in inflation. Given the amount that would be needed to get printed for this model, it would be hyperinflation.
Also, tax administration is a very little part of the total government administration, so while the amount might seem large, in reality doing away with it, would have little effect on government spending, especially not in countries with unemployment benifits (the tax people would need that, after getting fired).
What do Kent Hovind and Al Capone have in common?
A premature death from syphilis?
. . . please?
The church has strict rules on such transgressions and whilst child-abuse may be forgiven tax evasion certainly may not (neither by the church nor especially NOT by god). Now the good samitarian is going to hell for sure. I wonder how he is gonna buy himself out of there, but i am sure he piled up a small fortune somewhere.
There is also the possibility that (according to many sources -which i don`t have to quote as faith will do that for me) he might like it in hell. Hearsay has it that hell is a way more comfortable place to be in contrast to the curch.
kristjan, do you really think that fiat currencies don’t necessarily result in inflation anyway? — do you really think that countries aren’t already each trying to competitively devalue their fiat currencies? — inflation is growth in the supply of money & credit that exceeds the growth needed — the whole point is that fiat currencies are starting to fray: even the respected swiss franc will go bust — but it’s psychology, not quantity, that will trigger the transition from today’s unnoticed inflation to something much worse: the process isn’t linear — you’re welcome to keep your faith in today’s fiat currencies but as unaware as the american populace is of the fed’s true object of fostering inflation, no amount of make-believe inflation-fighting by the fed will save the dollar once the populace senses that it’s better to hold goods than to hold dollars — meanwhile, kristjan, you’ll need more than luck to survive the coming crisis: although the dollar, for instance, may rally for several months now, it will then resume its fall, but other countries’ fiat currencies will only try to outrace the dollar to the bottom & then they’ll all collapse
i won’t be seeking your investment advice, kristjan
Again, you fail to grasp the meaning of operating in a global market. Currencies don’t operate in a vacumn, and the long term effects of inflation, is such that it’s not a tool used for regulating the economy. Short term benifits, like increased exports, are not enough to compensate for long term problems like increased costs of import products (e.g. oil) and loss of jobs.
Your definition is trivial, simplistic and incorrect. Inflation is strictly speaking the fall of market value or purchasing power of money. This can be caused by what you state (though this is not considered real inflation by many economists), but it can also be cause by such things as increased prices on import items.
Source please. And what this have to do with your first post?
Today’s inflation is rather noticed, or haven’t you heard about the prices of certain items going up in the US?
So many words, so little wisdom.
The US dollar is indeed in for a rough time, as Cheney’s financial advisers seems to be aware of, but the global economy as a whole is rather healthy, and while a tourbulent US dollar will have effects on the rest of the world, the Euro will stay rather strong, as the EU economy is more rubust than the current US economy.
You seem to have a US-centric, and incredible bad, understanding of the way economics works.
Countries are usually not interested in inflation.
I don’t give investment advice.
IT couldn’t have happened to a more deserving guy.
I had no idea when I signed onto Pharyngula this morning that I was going to get a lesson in the dynamics of currency in the global market.
Kick ass.
kristjan, you have no faith in human beings — you say we need them to collect taxes because otherwise we’d have to pay them welfare — it doesn’t occur to you that they’d contribute to society if they weren’t collecting taxes
today’s inflation is only noticed in an acceptable way — all central banks aim at mild inflation rates
funny that you resort to saying i’m u.s.-oriented when in fact the fed controls who gets fellowships & grants in economics in american universities: that’s because the fed doesn’t want the populace to see the fraud that lies behind fiat currencies
you’re wrong about the euro: watch it start to weaken as the dollar strengthens — then they’ll both go downhill
i shouldn’t want to be in your shoes during the coming crisis: you’re part of the herd that gets slaughtered when the economy undergoes a major shift
Are you aware that there are economical studies outside the US?
The dollar strengthens? Interesting concept. Is that before or after the increase in the deficit have stopped? Do the bonds owned by Chinese and Japanese banks have any influence on this?
You, harald, is as ignorant about your chosen subject as any ID proponent is about evolution. Read the basic text books, try to understand the mechanisms behind monetary policies and global trade.
kristjan, i don’t listen to american economists because they only propagandize
the dollar will strengthen for several months — the effect of the growing deficit takes time to do its work but then the dollar will fall & so will the euro & so will all other fiat currencies as they scramble to outdo each other in racing into the abyss
I am nervous that he was let out on bail, but I have a question: If he gets swept up in the Rapture before the trial, would that constitute bail-jumping? And would Dog be able to go after him?
Inquiring minds want to know….
harald, are you heavily invested in gold, by chance?
Because you sound just like the waiting-for-societal-collapse-and-then-my-gold-will-make-me-rich kind of people.
Just wondering.
gravitybear, i’m delighted to field a humorous question — i’ve no loyalty to any particular vehicle — i’ll keep my opinions on gold to myself except to say gold has its long-term ups & downs, punctuated by violent short-term rallies & slumps — my one tip, though, is to invest in places & in vehicles that the gullible herd ignores
I got this e-mail from Brandt Dary after I informed him about Hovind’s latest arrest.
Hey, if you’ve got beef with Kent, good for you. I don’t care what he’s done as a person, I believe in what he believes in (regarding God, the age of the earth, and dinosaurs).
Are you a Christian?
I have sent two comments but he has not posted them.
Apparently, there is a flurry of blog postings of comments of his arrest.
Harald:
The interesting thing about fiat money as opposed to fidutuary money is that it actually works. Unfortunately, to make it work, you need to play by certain rules, key amongst which is “the total amount of money you have in circulation is worth a given amount, regardless of the number of banknotes that make up that total“.
When America was on the gold standard, there was a major depression every few decades. Since they switched to fiat money, not so much. In fact, no country practicing Keynesian monitary policy (which requires fiat money) has t mass poverty is a bad thing.ever had a depression.
What you do sometimes get with fiat money (when not coupled with Keynsian policies) is hyperinflation leading to a depression. This is caused by attempting to pay debts by printing more money, leading to the currency unit being drastically devalued. Generally, this leads to a death spiral that can only be stopped by abandoning the existing currency, and switching to a better regulated fiat currency. Look at Germany in the late 40’s, or Turkey in the last couple of years for what happens when governments try to balance the books in the way you suggest.
Of course, the real question is: if governments the world over can declare 0 taxation, and can increase the value of the economy, why don’t they do that? I’m pretty sure that if a presidential candidate gave a decent explanation of ho taxes were completely unneccessary, and that everyone could just declare how much monitary worth they wanted, and it would magically in their bank accounts, they would win by a landslide. And yet, no politician, anywhere, ever, has tried this – maybe you should.
Thought experiment:
I set up my own private economy, the Quatloo. To begin with, I print 1,000 one quatloo notes, so my net worth is 1,000 quatloos. The next day, I print 1,000,000 one-thousand quatloo notes. Am I now a million times as rich? Can I buy myself a big house and start collecting classic cars?
To sum up:
Countries that have an income of real value (in the form of taxes, generally, though state-owned businesses could earn enough that taxes aren’t needed) have fairly steady economies. Countries that manage their economies according to the principles you advocate tend to quickly descend into depression and mass poverty. I’ve always thought that mass poverty is a bad thing.
Of course, if all these countries know that fiat money will lead inexorably to their utter destruction, you’d think that it would be less popular than it is. I mean, why are 3/4 of the world’s nations using fiat money, if it’s so inherently flawed? Why would so many independent nations court their own fall like this? Why not position themselves to avoid it, and become the pre-eminant economy after America and Europe go down the toilet?
wintermute, it’s fun talking with you because you don’t rely on name-calling — i disagree that gold was at fault for the great depression of 1873-95, for instance
what started the great depression in 1929 was the excessive amount of money & credit created during the 1920s that led to a huge misallocation of capital: it’s the opposite of what milton friedman says, but he’s never paid any mind to the facts
the world only went off the gold standard in 1971, so keynes has had but a brief reign & it’s doomed to fail — i’m glad, though, that the majority agrees with you: i’m not clever enough to put bread on the table by thinking things through for myself: i just bet against the majority — likewise i’m not clever enough to get in on the ground floor of a hot investment: i’ve had to crawl in by the cellar window & wait for years in the dark — once i came near to being homeless, but all told i’ve made it this far, thanks to the majority that disagrees with me
I think what HH is proposing is that in lieu of collecting taxes, the government simply compute how much it needs and print that much.
This is one of those ideas that is simple, elegant and wrong.
With taxes, there is resistance to the growth of government expenditures from those who pay the taxes. The alternative suggested above depends entirely on the restraint of those printing the money.
I believe that one day we will once again have wise, effective government. But I don’t think it will ever be that wise!
This is a classic case of misrepresentation.
The gold standard have been used on and off, but the global gold standard started with the creation of Germany in 1871. The German currency used the gold standard, and graduately other countries joined the stadard, most noticable to you, was probably that they US did it (officially) in 1900.
The gold standard was however abandonned by the UK in 1931 and the US in 1933. The 1933 London conference let to the abandonning of the international gold standard.
Then in 1944 to 1971, the Bretton Woods system was created and used.
After 1971 the current system have been in use.
So in other words, the period from 1971 till now (35 years) is as long as the periods with gold standards.
And the current global economy has shown no signs of collapsing anything soon.
harald:
I’m not suggesting that gold caused depressions, but rather, that once a depression started, there was no way to adjust the flow of money to end the depression. We still have recessions, we simply now have te tools to prevent them developing into depressions.
What started the Great Depression was banks overextending themselves, lending 10 or 20 times as much money as they had assets to cover those loans. As a huge number of these loans were to farmers, a bone-dry summer meant that these loans could not be repaid, and the banks foreclosed on (now worthless) farms. This means that the paper assets the banks had suddenly disappeared, and lead to a loss of confidence on the part of investors, who all rushed to withdraw their savings. The banks then defaulted on their own loans, and were foreclosed upon in turn…
In short, it was caused by banks thinking that they could loan more money than thy had, and getting caught out when it all went wrong. They were using fiducuary money at the time, but the prnciple is the same as when a government funds public spending by printing more money.
Well, “the world” has never had an integrated economic system that would allow a blanket statement like that to be meaningful. However, Britain abandoned the gold standard in 1931, and America followed in 1933, so fiat currency has had a longer life than you seem to think. Keynsian policies are currently operated in over 150 countries around the world, leading to a massive body of evidence as to how it works. Admittedly, this is a far shorter run than commodoty money had, but all the evidence is that it works far. Do you have any evidence beyond gut instinct that fiat money is intrinsically flawed? Why is it doomed to fail?
The majority will tell you not to bet the house on a busted flush, or that “buy high, sell low” is a bad idea. Betting against the majority (especially where, as here, you’re talking about a majority of experts) is a good way to starve to death. In fact, you statement can be re-written as “I’m not clever enough to put bread on the table by thinking things through for myself, but the people who are clever enough to do so are all wrong.”
Is that really what you think?
the world went off the gold standard in 1971 because the dollar was & still is the world’s reserve currency & till 1971 foreign central banks could turn in their dollars for gold — roosevelt took americans off the gold standard but he kept the gold exchange window open to foreigners
wintermute, you won’t believe this & i’m glad most folks won’t because my livelihood depends on it — during any major economic trend, the experts tend to get more & more off base till they’re nearly all wrong & then the trend goes haywire
but personally, i wish you’d open your eyes
Well, you can still change your dollars for gold. It’s called “buying gold”. But since 1933, the values of the US Dollar and gold have varied independently of each other. If Americahad remained on the gold standard, then one US Dollar would have bought the same amount of gold in 1933 as in 1971, and at all points between. This is refuted by the historical record.
I’m certainly no expert when it comes to economic history, and I’m not boundlessly optimistic when it comes to fiscal projections (for example, I think Bush’s plans to cut taxes while funding an expensive, never-ending war will negatively impact America’s economy), but I will tend to believe researched, published and Nobel Prize-winning papers over someone whose only evidence is “economists don’t know anything”, especially when they make claims flatly contradicted by the historical record, and claim not to be clever enough to think things through themselves.
Can you provide me with something to open my eyes to? Do you have any evidence that the world’s economies are about to collapse, beyond bald assertion? Are there any economists who agree with you?
Well, I did find this very economical argument for the gold standard:
While this was the argument against fiat money:
See, the Bible says it is wrong.
When it comes to economics, the pickings appear lean though – for a while I thought that maybe Lawrence M. Parks of Foundation for the Advancement of Monetary Education might be one, but he holds a Ph.D. in Operations Research, whatever that might be, from the Polytechnic University. Would you believe that he is an engineer? The reason I though Parks might be one, is that he is the person everyone seems to be quoting when it comes to the close collapse of “fiat money” (especially one of his articles from 1998).
Sorry about that – I apparently didn’t close the ancher tag properly
Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.
One thing I never understood about that passage is the part where, since there’s a picture of Caesar on the money, therefore the money belongs to Caesar. I know that’s supposed to be all “wise” and everything, but to me it just sounds like some idiotic rhetorical trick or something. I guess it must be too “deep” for me.
the price of gold was fixed to the dollar till nixon’s time — when roosevelt confiscated americans’ gold holdings he also adjusted the price of gold but it stayed fixed at that new price — keynes has only held sway since 1971 because all the world’s other currencies were tethered to gold through the dollar
i’m a non-practicing agnostic: it reassures me to know that everybody thinks my views are wrong & i’m not out to convert anybody — how else can i make a living?
fiat currencies will take awhile longer to lose their public esteem — several years at least
So all other currencies were pegged to the dollar? That’s an interesting idea…. Completely wrong of course, but interesting.
they weren’t pegged but the central banks, till 1971, made every effort to keep things stable, which is why i use the word tethered: some flexibility came into play — since then, foreign exchange volatility has gone way up
Ok, I grant you that you have stopped being US-centric, and gone over to being Western-centric. Look at the inflation around the world pre-1971, for example, Brazil had rapant inflation already since 1964.
Now, back to your idea that a (de facto) gold standard was what kept inflation away, and that it was after doing away with it, that inflation started happening.
Well, it sounds plausible, until you look at the facts – it was because of the rising inflation in the US that the Bretton Woods system was done away with (source: The Euro versus the Dollar: Resolving a Historical Puzzle – .pdf)
nixon closed the gold window in 1971 because he didn’t want to lose more gold — he wanted to head off a stampede that would have deep-sixed the dollar — the guns & butter strategy started by lyndon johnson was at breaking point — other countries went along with the gag because they all hated being tied to gold themselves
brazil had problems because it was still an economic satellite of america & europe — neither america nor europe has ever had anything but its own interest at heart
…the EU economy is more rubust than the current US economy.
No, it’s not.
The Eurozone economy has been growing more slowly than the U.S. economy for several years, and their unemployment rates continue to be much higher than America’s.
Checking out The Economist magazine would be a good place to start.
None of these things are really factors when you consider robustness, though some consider unemployement an indicator of it. However, unemployment is not necessarily comparable across countries, as it is messured differently in different countries (for example, it’s well known that the US undercounts its unemployment compared to other countries).
Issues like GDP (where the EU is slightly bigger than the US), trade deficits (no comparision), foreign debt (again no comparision), inflation (similar), and trade dependecies are on the other hand factors for evaluating the robustness of an economy.
The Economist is indeed a quite good magazine, though it has a decided EU-sceptic bias, and have had that for as long as the EU has existed.
However, if you want to understand the basics of economics, the Economist is a bit too simplistic. A good text book would be better for the purpose.
Kristjan Wager, you write that GNP growth and labor force participation are not really factors when considering the robustness of economies, and then you write that the size of the EU GDP is a factor in deciding that the Eurozone economy is more robust than that of the U.S.
Which is it? Size of GNP matters, or not?
And, if it does, then doesn’t the more rapid growth of the U.S. economy mean that the size of the EU economy will be soon be overshadowed by that of America ?
You also write that it’s well known that the U.S. undercounts its unemployment compared to other countries.
Are you then attempting to assert that unemployment in the U.S. is actually higher than that of the Eurozone ?
Even if you were to count American unemployment in such a way as to make an apples-to-apples comparison to unemployment in the EU, you’d find that European unemployment is much higher, and also that a smaller percentage of the Euro population participates in the labor force.
Expressed as a percentage of the entire population, far more Americans work than do Europeans.
I do agree that a good textbook is helpful in understanding the basics of economics. Have you read any ?
Michael: Growth may not be stable growth.
Also, he’s simply asserting that the unemployement numbers are not comperable – there are people in the US who are considered employed who would be considered unemployed if they were in the same position in the EU.
I sorta suspect that the US and EU have very similar numbers of “real” unemployement. It’s interesting to claim that sort of thing as you and I have both done – but evidence is more useful.
Also: Yes, the Fed pushes for inflation. This is true. They do this because deflation destroys peoples lives very very quickly, while inflation, even rampant inflation, is not as bad.
Furthermore, a low but non-zero inflation rate will promote investment over simple savings – which is not a bad thing at all.
There is a difference between a 1% rate of inflation and a 20% rate. One is pretty good. One is categorically bad.
Also, fiat currency is not a “fraud” – it is a social system, wherein something with no intrinsic value is agreed upon as a medium of exchange in order to simplify exchanges and to make it possible for someone who has nothing tangible that another person wants to still exchange with that person without having to first exchange with others.
Size of GNP matters, growth doesn’t. You have countries with explosive growth in GNP that wouldn’t by any means be considered a rubust economy. Also, size of GNP is only one factor out of many.
Last time I looked at the numbers, 61% of the European population was part of the workforce, while about 70% of the US population was part of the workforce. Some of this is explained by the differences in demographics between Europe and the US.
I do not however make any claims upon which country have the biggest unemployment. As I said, they are messured differently in different countries.
Take the average “full-time” Walmart employee. They work 30 hours. In Denmark, such an employee would be considered 25% unemployed, at least if the person was looking for a full time job.
Yes, I did manage to read one or two, back in the days when I studied economics.
What is so funny, is that the same could be said of gold.
SO why don’t you sientist debate him. Scared or what.
assuming your assinine comment was referring to Hovind, then I must correct you:
no, not “scared or what”
scared OF what.
which is exactly why real scientists don’t bother with kenny boy.
he has nothing to discuss that isn’t born of complete insanity.
what’s to “debate”?
would you debate someone who built a house of straw, when for centuries brick houses had been shown to be clearly superior?