More reasoned argument from Team We Hate Feminism – a friendly tweet from Mark Senior, who comments here as mofa.
Mark Senior @MarkSenior3
Please accept your ‘victim card’ (hope you have your sense of humour switched on)
regards mofa
He’s late; I posted that on Facebook yesterday. I also pointed out that the jeans and shoes are all wrong. I wouldn’t wear shoes like that, and I never roll my jeans, much less wear them up above the ankle like that. Ew.
Above the jeans of course it’s exact.
But as an argument? Well I’m not sure what the argument is, exactly. That I’m wrong about everything because I’m so ugly? I’m not convinced that’s a valid argument. Maybe someone will make a video elucidating the premises.
Update to add:
Mark Senior @MarkSenior3
@jimnnewman @OpheliaBenson
Just clean fun…no one gets hurt
Jim Newman @jimnnewman
@MarkSenior3 @OpheliaBenson no one gets hurt? I’m detecting hurt feelings, insults, personal attacks, denigration, push to silence.
Mark Senior @MarkSenior3
Alex G liked his (except for the nose), Lousy Canadian will like his…RW’s is good too.
It’s very telling that he picked those out. They are relatively benign. But several of the others are not benign at all; it’s telling that he didn’t claim anyone will like those.
What is humorous about a card sent to someone to be nasty to them? Alex found his funny, even flattering in some ways, but it isn’t meant that way. Someone who thinks you are horrible sending a caricature with no element of humour is meant in one way only, to hurt. Personally I think trying to hurt people for the sake of it is wrong. But this “side” consists of “FTBullies”, so I must have got my reasoning wrong somewhere.
Bad caricatures. Stupid and pointless. Telling people to have their “sense of humour” switched on is not a recipe for rescusing an unfunny joke. I guess if I drew a stick figure man, put an eye patch and a scar on it, and added a bird flying over and pooping on his head, labeling it “Mark Senior”, he would consider that a trenchant and cutting riposte. He should think about that: if I did such a thing, he knows it would be inane and would say nothing about him, but lots about me.
And he’s obsessively putting together 52 of these things? Does he consider that an accomplishment?
Since they’ve got our names on them, he should mail each of us a deck. It’d be a useful prop to drag out when I’m asked if I fear my enemies. “No,” I’d say, “this is how they argue — like first graders.”
“edgy: you’re doing it wrong”
@2 PZ – and the thing is, you can’t actually, um, HAVE an argument with a first grader. Has everyone had the experience of getting sucked into an argument with a child, and then having that dawning realization, “oh, wait, I’m the adult here”. Immune to rational lingity, most children are.
Ophelia, you’re being divisive by forcing him to draw caricatures. Stop it right now! … ok I’m bad at this.
Mainly commenting to laugh at how they just can’t let the pineapple thing go…. yeesh. That was almost two years ago, wasn’t it?
Can someone link Reality_based_community over here so they can see what junior high bullshit really looks like?
What’s “SJW”? I hate getting here late…
[powerstance]SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR! [/powerstance]
SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR
SOCIAL JUSTICE Sounds good. Where do I sign up?
May I assume that those criticizing people for being SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS are ANTISOCIAL INJUSTICE WARRIORS?
Blanche Quizno, ask Richard Dawkins about Social Justice Warriors. He recently learned about that term and finds it very useful.
@Oolon:
My guess is that their defense would hinge on two factors.
1. You’re public figures! It’s no different than political cartoons of George Bush or Barack Obama!
Of course, you’re not public figures, certainly not on the level of Bush or Obama. And while political cartoons usually caricature their subjects, it’s still absolutely possible for the caricatures to come from a place of bigotry, as these all do to one degree or another. As PZ said, these say more about the artists than the subjects.
Also, I don’t think most political cartoonists mail their caricatures directly to the subjects, and most of the time they have more of a message than “haw haw you’re funny lookin.”
2. It’s caricatures! Caricatures are done in good fun! Have a sense of humor! Satire!
It’s true, caricatures are often done in good fun, even commissioned by the subjects. Caricatures done without the permission of the subject, however, usually aren’t in good fun. They’re usually mean-spirited and insulting, as at least some of these are intended to be. It’s almost as if consent were a relevant factor.
Someone drew a cartoon of me and a friend when I was in 6th grade. I never saw it, but apparently the punchline was “ur gay.” Just in case you wanted to pin down the exact maturity level here, it’s 11-12 years old.
It’s good to see that FtB is once again just a bunch of pathetic nobodies fading into the background with their falling site hits that no one cares about. Look at how much they don’t care about you, how well they’re ignoring you. Look at how little you matter, that they take the time to lovingly craft computer-drawn caricatures of fifty-two of you. That’s how little they care about or think about what you have to say. Just watch them. Watch them not care at all.
The thing that puzzles me is, why? Why spend time/energy in this way? It makes no sense to me.
There are plenty of people I have contempt for. In addition, I have IT skills, some artistic talent and a full Adobe Creative Cloud subscription. I also have a home office, and make my own schedule. In short, I have the time, talent and professional resources, which, if I wanted to, I could devote to creating insulting commentary, videos and images to mock my “enemies.”
Except I don’t want to… what would be the point? It would be a waste of energy that could be devoted to more positive and constructive activities.
I have a sense of the place it’s coming from, though. As a kid, I was bullied by my older sister (who had 4+ years and 30+ pounds on me), and took a “brain over brawn” approach to evening the score. After some initial experimentation, I realized that she was easily startled, and would scream bloody murder when frightened – which became a “button” that I could – and did – push over and over. The absolute predictability of her reaction gave me a sense of having real power over her.
And yes, that sense of power was addictive. In junior high and high school, I became the “go-to” person in my circle of friends for devising hurtful practical jokes to be played on designated targets – usually boys who were shy and socially-isolated. Even though I was once bullied, I had no qualms about bullying others, particularly when there was an encouraging group to applaud (and carry out) my “jokes.” It also elevated my in-group status (and self-importance) as someone-who-should-never-be-messed-with, even though, appearance-wise, I was anything but formidable.
And then I grew the f**k up, and recognized that there were far more constructive and positive ways to employ my cleverness and creativity. Devoting time/energy to taunting others is a childish way to feel superior without actually, y’know, being superior.
Elly: “Even though I was once bullied, I had no qualms about bullying others, particularly when there was an encouraging group to applaud (and carry out) my ‘jokes.'”
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It appears to me that you have a high degree of personal insight not usually accorded to many, and particularly not schoolyard bullies and control-freaks. They all too often go on to build careers using the skills learnt on that particular job site. So congratulations from me.
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If you are not in, you are out. Life’s too short for even sampling all the various delights the world has to offer, but I get the feeling that Facebook is not one of them. Which is why I stay right out of it. This sort of thing just heads it in the direction of becoming one huge, global electronic school yard.
I did not create the caricatures… I just delivered them. I was the postman, or in the USA you would call me the ‘mail man’, or at Freethought Blogs you would call me the ‘person person’.
Why were these produced I hear some ask? Why not? It is a creative endeavour and it amuses some, and doesn’t amuse others.
And yes PZ, RC, RW, MD, SZ and dear Ophelia ARE public figures, in the Atheist community, we all know that. And caricature and satire of public figures has a rich history in the political arena (Punch magazine for example and many other American examples I am sure). And feminism is a political movement…a socio political movement…so its ‘public figures’ are fair game to a keen eye and an artistic hand. This is not my work, I wish that I was so talented, but its creator asked me to pass his work on. If I was the subject of one of these caricatures I would accept it as a compliment…it means that you are still relevant, you warrant attention, you are having an impact on the community. As I mentioned in a tweet…it is all harmless fun (except for Richard’s and SZ’s…they fall outside the bounds of good taste…hey but don’t shoot the messenger!)
The subtleties make these works good caricatures..the reference to South Park in Lousy Canuck’s caricature, the penciled on tear in RW’s. the steering wheel in Matt Dillahunty’s caricature is a reference to the dangerous habit of vlogging whilst driving. You have to appreciate some aspects of this ‘art’.
It’s screamingly obvious that this caricature directly connects to the broader back-and-forth that’s been the focus of Butterflies and Wheels the past few years.
If it’s really nothing but a joke, is it a coincidence that it overlaps so strongly with sentiments of Ophelia’s critics? If it’s a joke it could have been about anything, right? Like, I don’t know, something that makes light of the blogging lifestyle, or Jesus and Mo style exasperation toward irrational arguments, or anything.
There’s a lot to choose from. And we’re to believe this is in no way connected to any motivations to play-up an unfair caricature. Or to even directly instigate a reaction, in order to say “see? here we go again! It was just an innocent joke!” Couldn’t be that. No-sir-ree!
Tom Foss called it. Obviously mofa didn’t read the thread, or else he’d have realized that what he was saying had already been said.
A slymepitter dissembling. How original.
Just like when Reinhardt and whatever-that-other-asshead’s name is took that highlarious elevator picture and then lost their brave and clever backbones when you called them out on it, Ophelia.
So, the official caricature of the Slymepitters would obviously be the “not me” ghost from Family Circus.
Just the messenger he is.
@m0fa:
Ah, yes, as the poem goes, “Neither snow, nor rain, nor heat, nor basic human decency stays these shit-stirrers from the completion of their self-appointed rounds.”
Hey guys, everyone remember when the official ‘Pit line was that it couldn’t be harassment because you had to go looking for it?
See it’s funny because people at Freethought Blogs realize that not all postal workers are men. Gendered language is obviously totes okay, which is why Dawkins himself, patron saint of the Anti-SJW crowd, used feminist consciousness-raising over gendered language as a model for what he wants to accomplish with biology and atheism.
As long as it amuses some, who cares if it might hurt people? Who cares if it’s mean-spirited and perpetuates bigotry (ageism, fatphobia, whatever the hell is going on with that sex doll, homophobia)? Obviously those aren’t reasons not to do something!
It sure does. So what’s being satirized here? What’s the point of this satire? So far, it looks like “haw haw you’re fat/ugly/queer/old/a sex doll for some reason. This is satire/caricature like those pictures of the Obamas as chimpanzees are satire/caricature.
It’s funny, I got accused of being like a Scientologist by one of the anti-SJW crowd on Twitter the other day, yet here you are going on about fair game.
So you had no choice. “Please harass these people for me because I am unwilling to do it myself.” “Okay!”
M0fa, you are a fucking worthless individual. Congratulations on being thoroughly vile.
“I wish strangers would tell me how attractive I am when I walk down the street!”
You’re not one of those caricatures, though, are you? And somehow, I don’t think either you or the “artist” asked the subjects of these caricatures how they would feel about them. Somehow, I don’t think either of you give two shits how people take the caricatures. Somehow, I don’t imagine if someone said “I find this caricature very hurtful, please take it down,” that their feelings would enter into your decision at all.
If someone didn’t ask for a thing, and in fact would like you to stop doing a thing, that thing really stops being complimentary.
No, it means you and your shit-stain pals can’t move the fuck on. If people wanted your attention and opinion, they wouldn’t block you on social media. You and this “artist” aren’t fucking “Weird Al” Yankovic; being parodied by you isn’t some badge of honor. It’s yet another entry in the anti-SJ “I knows how to use photoshop” file.
The fact that some of them are obviously tasteless and mean-spirited kind of demonstrates that the project isn’t being done out of some ha-ha, funny-funny, let’s all laugh at ourselves sense of camaraderie. It is, as it ever was, grade school bullying. And you’re the one going “look at what they wrote about you in the burn book, isn’t it funny?”
“You are fat, like a pig.” “Queer people wear bright clothes.” “Ha ha, you’re old and ugly.”
much subtle, very satire, so jonathan swift, wow
@SallyStrange: Where do I write for my million dollar prize?
Amazing how reluctant these #BraveHeroes are to just flat-out say “yeah, we hate you people, so we think it’s awesome to distribute nasty, personal attacks on you.” Why so coy? It starts to look like they lack the courage of their convictions.
m0fa #14: “This is not my work, I wish that I was so talented, but its creator asked me to pass his work on.”
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Oh puhleez! You mean he couldn’t do it himself?
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With all the respect I can muster for you and “its creator”, to my mind it’s like nothing so much as throwing a bag of dog shit through a window into a banquet hall, while announcing “This is not my work, I wish that I was so talented, but its creator asked me to pass his work on.”
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But then again, look on the bright side. From here on, both you and “its creator” (whatever distinct difference in identity happens to be the case there) can only improve.
The caricatures are of a similar level of artistic skill to South Park, too.
Cross-posted (with some changes) from Facebook:
Once again these folks fail at wit and at art, and then feel compelled to defend their taste. No, dude. They’re really not good caricatures. If they were kindly meant and tweaked to be flattering, they still wouldn’t be good caricatures. They’re amateurish and charmless and they don’t “get” their subjects. Fail.
Ophelia you just need to get some enemies with skill and taste. That’s all there is to it.
Truly, haven’t be all been practically pleading for a better class of opponents for years now?