There was some (incorrect) indication that Ivermectin might help with COVID-19. The studies are in [twiv] [jama]
The science is in, so that is definitely that. Ivermectin is a really effective paracitecide; I immediately wondered how that might translate into an anti-viral – but the answer is, “it doesn’t.” Like the Hydryoxychloroquine, it sounds like it was probably something some quack pulled out of their ass and decided to promote.
I have a couple bottles of the stuff down on the shelf in my horse-barn. It’s good for bot-fly infestations, which can be a serious problem for your horses. Small doses are good for clearing your dogs of heartworms, so everyone got a little bit of ivermectin paste every year around the holidays. It’s generally a good idea when you have deer wandering about pooping indiscriminately, horses wandering about pooping indiscriminately, and dogs that cheerfully eat whatever they find of either. When people started talking about Ivermectin for COVID-19, I did not run and glub down some of my precious supply of the stuff, don’t worry.
Meanwhile COVID-“truther” conspiracy theorists have been buying the stuff off of amazon.com and leaving weird reviews: [beast]
Not to be deterred, COVID truther types have been buying up ivermectin like hotcakes and it’s so scarce now that many have turned to a version of the drug used by veterinarians on horses, sheep, and even parrots. (In its animal form, it comes as a horse paste or as a jug of liquid sheep “drench.” Yum.)
Of course, all sorts of former hydroxy grifters, hoaxsters, and false prophets have now glommed onto ivermectin, including the aforementioned Demon Sperm Doc. There are Facebook groups where people disturbingly try to figure out how to dose a person rather than an equine. And, in the darkest twist, Amazon’s recommendation engine for ivermectin is recommending you also buy a pulse oximeter, just in case the horse paste doesn’t turn out to be as bulletproof as a vaccine. So, in conclusion, 2021: just as crazy as 2020.
That sort of behavior leads me to conclude that the conspiracy theorists do not actually believe what they claim to believe – that there’s no real COVID-19 or that the vaccine is no good. If there was no COVID-19, why would they be bothering with Ivermectin? There’s no COVID-19, right? Alternately, if the real vaccine is dangerous and untested (I have heard both arguments) then why take something else that is potentially dangerous because it is untested for that purpose? I can calculate the dosage of Ivermectin that is safe for a dog or a horse, but that doesn’t mean it’s safe for a human nor do I know what a safe dosage would be, if there were one. [Disclaimer: I have eaten horse ivermectin, calculation based on body mass, because my area of Pennsylvania was having a heartworm outbreak and at the time I kept livestock].
I know it’s going out of style to point out that anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists are promoting bullshit, but I feel it’s everyone sensible’s duty to periodically point out the bullshit – the media, the guardians of the public forum, are not doing that, and it used to be their job.
I suspect it works the same way as with creationism: A lot of gullible people being guided by a small group of lying bastards.
“That sort of behavior leads me to conclude that the conspiracy theorists do not actually believe what they claim to believe – that there’s no real COVID-19 or that the vaccine is no good. If there was no COVID-19, why would they be bothering with Ivermectin?”
“Conspiracy theorist” is a broad label, and the people painted with it a diverse lot. If these were religions, the’d be schisming and waging holy wars on one another non-stop, all while agreeing that, fundamentally, everything is lies. The major conspiracy branches probably include both the COVID and vaccine as a hoax beliefs. The latter may ramble on about Bill Gates’ microchip injections or simply remain worried about vaccine safety. Members of each branch may think the others are fools or even part of the conspiracy. Members of both probably look down on some of the other pandemic-unrelated conspiracy theories, while accepting others. Mix and match as you please.
If the Vatican started selling time off from hell again some Christians migh buy, ohers might not. That doesn’t mean all Christians secretly know they’re wrong about their religion, only that the catholic brand has more competition than it used to.
@#1 LykeX: Unsurprisingly, among others, it’s the usual suspects at Faux Noise.
Rolling Stone/Peter Wade: The FDA Is Begging You Not to Take Horse Dewormer for Covid-19
Found at Roll to Disbelieve/Captain Cassidy: The Increasing Numbers of COVID Denialists Dying of COVID
I have seen a number of otherwise sensible people on the internet go down the Ivermectin rabbet hole and I have no idea what is causing this. Maybe pandemic fatigue? I do sick for some of the American bloggers the CDCs performance introduced a bit of distrust in American experts.
In any case, lot of people seem to be jumping on the bandwagon. There also seems to be some really weird people publishing really crappy research on the drug. Some of it seems so bizarre that it’s almost impossible to figure out what they’re doing or why they’re doing it but which actually got included in a couple of meta-analyses. There’s one study that is soo incredibly bad that I can’t visualize why they would even try and published it. The paper not the meta-analysis. The people doing the meta-analyses were just a bit sloppy in analyzing the paper.
Anyone who wants to read an interesting bit of scientific detection work I highly recommend this blog about how bad the preprint paper is https://grftr.news/why-was-a-major-study-on-ivermectin-for-covid-19-just-retracted/. And for data nuts Nick Brown’ blog post is a joy to read. https://steamtraen.blogspot.com/
I guess this will be telling everyone what we already know but in case its handy info / resources – good source here Ivermectin ~wise :
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/aug/13/what-is-ivermectin-and-should-we-be-using-it-to-treat-covid-19
Then there’s the official word from the experts here :
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19
Meanwhile in Oz we have miner boss, ALP slanderer politician who helped put Scotty from Marketing in power and all round scumbag Clive Palmer still pushing deadly misinfo and getting his destructive lies pushed on the front page – see :
https://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/episodes/clive/13387260
How did that work out – can I ask if you had any side-effects and how about the taste?
This is about the study which was retracted, and which claimed the most positive effect for Ivermectin:
Huge study supporting ivermectin as Covid treatment withdrawn over ethical concerns
And by “ethical concerns” they mean blatant fraud. Data cloning, fabricated results, plagiarism. It sounds like a real train wreck. My understanding was that the paper had not actually been published, it was in “preprint” status when it was retracted.
Several other of the studies to date were metastudies; they don’t do original research, but compile results from multiple original research papers. As the computer people say, GIGO. I think at least one of the big metastudies has since modified their paper to reflect the garbage status of the Egyptian paper.
This is from December 2020: Sen. Ron Johnson holds COVID-19 hearing accusing health officials of ignoring alternative therapies
Also, Ivermectin was popular in Brazil last year. Considering the problems they had with COVID, I don’t know why anyone would even suspect that Ivermectin was effective.
SteveOr@#5:
How did that work out – can I ask if you had any side-effects and how about the taste?
They sell the stuff for horses in these big syringes calibrated to the horses’ weight. Allegedly it tastes like apples but it doesn’t fool the horses or me. There’s a carrying chemical which appears to be vaseline – so, it tasted pretty much what you’d imagine a slightly chemical-flavored spoonful of apple-scented vaseline would taste like.
No side effects but I haven’t got heartworms. Or COVID-19. OMG, it worked!
Reginald Selkirk@#6:
And by “ethical concerns” they mean blatant fraud. Data cloning, fabricated results, plagiarism. It sounds like a real train wreck. My understanding was that the paper had not actually been published, it was in “preprint” status when it was retracted.
Yes, the paper was dismantled pretty conclusively. I’m seriously puzzled why anyone thought to write it, unless it was some sort of attempt to discredit scientific reasoning or something like that. I will say, that it was distributed and quoted so widely is an embarrassment and it’s why refereed papers are important. Unfortunately, the paywalls that have been put up and the delays in peer review have created a market for “preprints” and they are susceptible to this sort of attack.
I posted on the topic as soon as Dr Griffin discussed it on TWIV: [stderr]
There is this study https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1948550611434786 that shows that conspiracy-theory types are happy to hold contradictory beliefs. As an example, the fact that they believe that Princess Diana faked her own death does not deter them from also believing that she was murdered; in fact, the two beliefs are positively correlated.
So I find it perfectly logical that some believe that COVID-19 does not exist and that taking ivermectin will protect them from dying of it.
@ ^ cvoinescu : “Perfectly logical” seems to be pushing it. Understandable maybe! But logic, not so much.
@7. Marcus Ranum : Okay, thanks.
Marcus, please fix the sarcasm tags. They don’t show up.
Ivermectin does kill SARS-CoV2 in vitro, in concentrations impossible to attain in vivo. There are a lot of things that work to cure all sorts of diseases in vitro, but that don’t pan out in vivo.
I am shocked the cannabis peddlers have not latched onto COVID. After all, Nature’s Miracle Herb cures ALL human ills? According to Cheech Marin, this is especially true when you bring in NANO. I am surprised the Cannabis woo-mongers have not included QUANTUM in their marketing materials. NEW! QUANTUM WEED! Will cure your cancer and COVID!
bmiller:
Not sure how serious that’s supposed to be, but it does seem a bit unfair.
I mean, every pot dealer I’ve ever known has been way more ethical than anybody in the pharmaceutical industry has ever been. Of course, most cops don’t see it the same way, but that’s their problem
Besides, there are numerous much better reasons to get some weed, which everybody knows. The stuff sells itself.
Or maybe they dropped the ball and just failed to exploit people once again. They haven’t really cashed in because they’ve been chilling out and playing video games this whole time. Maybe we can’t rule that out.
c.r.: Not very serious. Just tired of the relentless advertising now that cannabis is semi-legal in California. Find the stuff vile from a purely aesthetic standpoint and lack of interest (other things are my vice. Especially the demon tropical weed sugar) so I will trust you on “ethical pot dealers, although I am not sure the behavior of illegal larger scale pot farmers is that universally ethical. I will grant you that issue, though. Former (illegal) pot dealers are not the problem. Cheech Marin babbling about “nano THC” is. I truly do expect quantum cannabis to appear in the marketplace soon enough. After all…Deepak Chopra got rich promoting his nonsense. Why not the commercial weed industry?
bmiller:
Neither is the behavior of those in the (legal) pharmaceutical industry. And look, a single family in it is at least arguably more responsible for more actual harm from their drugs than all of the pot farmers who have ever lived. Obviously, that’s also barely scratching the surface of the industry.
The point is, they do have a rather long and sordid history of being horrible, while those who produce and sell weed don’t. So, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that nothing about these specific circumstances seems to have changed that.
Well, THC is very small, like all molecules are. And everything is quantum mechanical. So technically…..
Yeah, It’s bullshit, I know. However, it’s only bullshit that annoys you, which is not the worst sort of bullshit out there. (For example, there’s bullshit that annoys me. Just kidding.)
Because they’re not actually that bad? Because their business problems don’t have much to do with trying to increase demand? Because they could just play video games instead?