There has always been a market for nostalgia. Some of it is due to each person, other than those who had traumatic experiences, looking back on their childhoods with rose-tined glasses. Some commentators, especially right wing ones, alarmed by the progressive changes that are taking place in terms of greater equality for marginalized groups, have seized upon that tendency to proclaim that things have deteriorated from some prior golden age. They seem to have fixated on the 1950s as the high point in US history, completely ignoring the fact that it was not a good time time for anyone other than middle-class white cis people.
Currently, there are doomsayers who try to convince the public of this by picking on some cultural features and complaining that people no longer have a work ethic, have become hypersensitive and lost their sense of humor, and that men have become less manly. These fears are reinforced by the echo chambers of social media, and that constant repetition may convince some that these things are really true.
The radio program On The Media looked at these claims by examining newspapers, going back decade by decade for the last 100 years and finds that, rather than being new, these are recurring complaints have been a consistent feature of discourse.
[OTM correspondent Micah Loewinger] speaks with political scientist Paul Fairie, who has devoted his Twitter account to investigating refrains like “nobody wants to work anymore” and “people are losing their sense of humor” to show that seemingly modern moral panics have been repeated in the American press every decade for over a century. With the help of voice actors (see below), listen as Paul and Micah dive deep into the newspaper archives to demonstrate how little has changed in our political discourse.
While the present is by no means perfect and we still have a long way to go, I for one would hate to be living in the 1950s. As Carly Simon reminds us in this live performance of her song Anticipation, these are the good old days.
I want to agree, but can’t.
It’s not the good old days if:
-- Roe vs. Wade has been overturned
-- Donald Trump has been president
-- Alexander “Boris” Johnson has been PM, and holy fuck Liz Truss
-- Britain has left the EU
-- there’s an extended land war being fought in Europe with knock on effects to the world economy
-- there’s a global pandemic recently finished/still going on (delete as applicable)
-- there’s been an unprecedented cut in real terms income for the overwhelming majority of the population and a concentration of wealth in the hands of a privileged few to an unprecedented extent.
I honestly think quality of life in this country (the UK) legit increased pretty steadily since WW2, but peaked around 2006-2007, plateaued a bit until about 2015, then took a sharp downward turn into which it’s been accelerating ever since (not coincidentally, Conservatives won the election in 2015). Oh sure, by some touchy-feely measures some minor things have improved (sorry, trans people, but your general increased rights and acceptance since then, while welcome, is a minor thing). Also, my specific life has got better thanks to my wife and kids. But the point remains, life in general, for a large number of people, has got considerably shittier in the last 15 years or so, compared to an objectively better period in the 15 years prior.
Change my mind, if you can. Present me things that objectively outweigh the list above. Give me some reason to think that my children’s lives will be better than mine, in the same way mine was better than my parents’, and theirs were better than their parents’, because right now I can’t see how it can be -- their education won’t be free/paid for by the taxpayer (like mine was) and their prospect of owning their own home (as I do) seems more and more like a pipe dream.
While the 1950s in the US were awful in all manner of ways, there were some things to recommend them. Top rates of tax in the 90% bracket helped to keep the corporations and the rich in their place for one thing, and ensure much less wealth inequality than today. The country could well stand to bring that kind of thing back.
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” -- Socrates, 470 -- 399 BCE
The other thing that they ignore, and that cartomancer @2 mentioned part of, is that the reason that it was a good time, for white cis males at least, is that it was a time of high marginal tax rates and strong unions. There was a rising middle class. Magazines like Motor Trend and Popular Mechanics had articles with titles like “Car of the Future” and “Home of the Future” (I remember them from my youth). Middle-class parents had the totally reasonable expectation that their kids would have it better than they did.
These days, with the oligarchs successfully moving us away from capitalism* toward feudalism (we’re not nearly there yet, but we’re clearly moving in the wrong direction), most folks’ hopes for the future have been dashed.
*IMO, feudal lord wannabees shouldn’t be allowed to call themselves capitalists, and the rest of us ought to quit giving them that status.
The bit about ethnic jokes triggered a memory. When I was in my pre- to early teens, “polack” jokes were popular. I even helped spread a few myself. Then, a tv show called “Banacek” arrived. Banacek was a wealthy, very intelligent guy who made his money by recovering stolen valuables for the insurance company bounties. He also was fiercely proud of his Polish heritage. I loved that show. Unfortunately, watching it today I cringe at how misogynistic it was, but at least it helped me grow a little bit more broad-minded.
@3 Dunc
‘“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” — Socrates, 470 — 399 BCE’
Some years back I was in the Louvre, there was a cuneiform tablet (one of many many) from about 2000BC which was a letter by some elder complaining to the king, it stated pretty much the same thing.
@ sonofrojblake, #1
“Oh sure, by some touchy-feely measures some minor things have improved (sorry, trans people, but your general increased rights and acceptance since then, while welcome, is a minor thing).”
I hardly know what to say to this. People just don’t care what they say to us. When you’re transgender, anything goes. It never ceases to astonish me, the number of ways the privileged caste can come up with to cruelly insult minorities.
In our case, we’ve been kicked around and walked all over for 1600 years, give or take, and when at long last we begin to gain some measure of freedom from majority oppression, you call that “a minor thing”. It’s always easy to minimize what you’ve done to someone else.
What do you know about what it means to a transgender person, the night they finally come out; or what it means to a transgender person, the day they gain some legal rights? My life is not “a minor thing”. Or if it is, so is everybody’s.
“No, it’s just that there aren’t very many of you!” It’s one advantage of being a tiny minority: you learn to respect people rather than numbers.
“Give me some reason to think that my children’s lives will be better than mine. . .”
And who told you that your numbers would always protect you? Lots of people are being thrown under the bus these days? Lots of people have always been thrown under the bus. It’s when it touches you personally that you discover that it isn’t “a minor thing”.
We don’t learn much, do we? Does the past not teach us how easy human beings find it to trivialize and erase the lives of other human beings?
I agree with cartomancer & billseymour. In addition I tend to think that things are a bit worse than they mentioned. Because as far as I can tell the people that long for that mythical golden age are both actively for the easiest to reproduce, worst parts of the 50’s and also actively against the more socialist economic measures that made it even possible in the first place.
I wish I was joking or exaggerating but it honestly looks to me as if they want to ONLY bring back the racism and mysogyny. Like if every cis white male is just a big enough asshole, magically the economy will just spawn money somehow and they’ll get a good sized chunk of it. But we can’t have those socialist handouts! Somehow your racism and mysogyny has to cause your boss to just pay you more.
In the real world, when you can pay any segment of the economy less, all workers get lower pay. When your boss gets extra money they aren’t sharing it with you. They’re buying themselves something nice instead (I think almost everyone realizes this… but some conveniently forget it when talking politics). Racism just makes for less money in the economy. Same with mysogyny. Either one makes or a more constrained workforce which means a less talented one overall. These ideas are all simple, relatively intuitive and take absolutely trivial amounts of effort to understand. You just have to value the truth more than you value a story that tells you you’re special for ridiculous reasons.
@7 -- yeah, it’s cruelly insulting of me to acknowledge and welcome the fact that trans rights are considerably further advanced than they’ve ever been.
Minor compared to a land war in Europe and a global fucking pandemic. Yes. /shrug/
I do regret choosing improvements in trans rights and acceptance as my example of one of the unusual and notable good things that went against the grain of the general downward trend I’m talking about -- I should have guessed someone would jump on it and make their response all about that.
I know that for the trans people I know, there is no “night they finally come out”. They come out over and over and over again. A trans friend asked me to countersign their passport application because it contained their birthname and none of their professional colleagues -- people who’d ostensibly be a more natural choice of countersignatory -- knew they were trans. They were out to me but not to them. Beyond that, I obviously know little of the trans experience because I don’t make it a topic of conversation -- I’d say for the majority of trans people I know, the fact they’re trans is one of the least interesting things about them.
YES! We’re there.
Nobody. Where did I say I thought that? What I thought would protect me was the social contract. For a generation who were born during/just after WW2, there was a promise made by the government: we’ll educate you to university level for free. Work hard, qualify, get a good, professional job, and you’ll have it made. You’ll pay a fair bit in tax, but for that there’s free healthcare and free education for the kids you’ll bring up in the house you can afford to buy. And if you fail -- there’s a social safety net. That was what I was told, growing up. And all of it is gone.
See this point made eloquently in a good Youtube video I watched just today: https://youtu.be/gQDEbUm79xU?t=1352
Also, you seem to have missed the point that it’s NOT touching me personally except inasmuch as I worry about my kids. I’m not struggling, but I know far more people are. I’m doing the opposite of trivialising other people’s misery -- I just wish I could fix it.
In summary, though -- you trans people have it better than you did, a fact you can’t help but agree with. So FOR YOU, the phrase “the good old days are now” is true. Great. All I was saying was that in that, you are vanishingly small minority. I’m happy for you, sincerely I am. Good for you.
Ah yes, the 1950s -- the “Happy Days”.
When being gay was both a mental illness and a crime; when “a woman’s place is in the home” was taken completely seriously; when there was full-on segregation in the south with “whites only” and “coloreds” signs everywhere; when “miscegenation” (interracial relationships) were a crime; and when school kids prepared for a nuclear attack. Such a golden age!
(/snark)
Oh and I forgot half the population was addicted to nicotine and smoking at home, in public buildings, at work, in restaurants, etc. was ubiquitous. What joy.
Silentbob @10: you’re right, of course. I wouldn’t want to go back to that unless we could get rid of the casual racism and misogyny, indeed, all the hate and self-importance (which includes hatred of trans folks, etc.). Unfortunately, it seems like the hate and self-importance are exactly what the MAGA types want.
[meta]
I’m not linking the video, but…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/These_Are_the_Days_of_Our_Lives
Let’s not forget HUAC, the House Un-American Activities Committee -- because our next Speaker(s), whomever they may be, haven’t.
@ #9, sonofrojblake
“yeah, it’s cruelly insulting of me to acknowledge and welcome the fact that trans rights are considerably further advanced than they’ve ever been.”
You called our “increased rights and acceptance” a minor thing, a point that you’ve neither retracted nor even acknowledged in your subsequent post.
“Minor compared to a land war in Europe and a global fucking pandemic. Yes. /shrug/”
Now isn’t this cute? No matter what somebody is going through, you can always find something bigger. So, e.g., if you were dying of cancer, I could always respond, “No big deal! There’s a war and a pandemic on.” (I have cancer myself, and I have run into a couple of people who trivialized it, so I know what that’s about.)
And if we bear in mind that there are perhaps 75-80 million transgender people in this world, perhaps we’re not taking an accurate measure of the subject anyway. And when you consider the many generations of transgender people who’ve been subjected to discrimination, the subject becomes even larger.
“. . . I should have guessed someone would jump on it and make their response all about that.”
Yeah, people are funny that way. When you p*** on them and their lives, they tend to jump on you for that.
“I know that for the trans people I know, there is no “night they finally come out”.”
Great! Now I’ve got a cisgender person telling me what trans lives are like.
“My life is not “a minor thing”. Or if it is, so is everybody’s.”
“YES! We’re there.”
Excellent! So if you’re not going to trivialize your children’s difficulties, why trivialize mine?
“What I thought would protect me was the social contract.”
Yeah, well, we transgender people have never had a social contract.
“. . . you trans people have it better than you did, a fact you can’t help but agree with. So FOR YOU, the phrase “the good old days are now” is true.”
My friend, really, you need to think about what you’re saying, or perhaps you’ve got a very great deal yet to learn, or both.
When I was growing up in the 50s and 60s, if you were transgender, you didn’t raise your head above the rampart. You’d get it blown off if you did. I myself, e.g., in common with lots of transpeople of the day, had a father who’d have beaten me to within an inch of my life if he’d found out. When that’s your starting point, it’s not hard to have things better than you used to.
And you need to consider which transgender people you’re talking about. Wherever right-wingers are in power, you’re going to be in trouble. In Texas, e.g., Republicans are pledged not to recognize transgender identities in any way. They’re criminalizing transgender health care, and it now appears they’re even using records of drivers’ licenses to draw up lists of transgender names in the state. Now what could they possibly do with such lists? “The good old days”, right?
And even in places where transpeople are relatively well-off, such as in my country, we’re still not talking about all transpeople. Kids under 16, e.g., have absolutely no rights and no recognition, and the same is true of non-binary people of any age.
And even those rights we do have? An organization has just shown us that they can strip us of one of our rights with no discussion. They can even break the law in order to do it. And you can point that out to them, and they’ll just thumb their noses at you. Because they know they’re going to get away with it.
Oh, yes, we could take them to court, and I’d say we’d almost certainly win. It’s a very simple point. But there is such a thing as a Pyrrhic victory, and there’s no telling how much this one would cost us. It could be anticipated, e.g., that lawmakers would quickly set about rewriting the law to make sure we never won another such victory.
It’s just a little reminder how fragile our position is. We’re still at the mercy of the great majority. We still have only those rights they’re willing to tolerate, and we can’t push too hard, even when we have the law on our side. The good old days, right?
And I haven’t yet mentioned the fact that the attack on transgender rights is venomous, ubiquitous and non-stop. And the fact that transgender people are still routinely subjected to harassment, verbal or physical. I myself have had relatively little of that compared to some trans folks, but I haven’t been entirely free from it. You always have to keep your eyes open. The good old days.
“All I was saying was that in that, you are vanishingly small minority.”
No, that’s not all you were saying. You minimized our rights and advances. But the one follows from the other, doesn’t it? It’s our numbers that allow us to be bullied, right? And that’s what you’re reminding us of here.
“I’m happy for you, sincerely I am.”
Good. Then maybe you can refrain from trivializing our progress, because there’s still a long, long way to go before we truly enjoy a social contract.
One line of Leonard Cohen’s that I often recall, which perhaps you could reflect on:
“We are so small between the stars, so large against the sky.”
That little line resolves the transgender issue and lots of other foolish issues that our species insists on raising.
And you’d be right, and I’d agree. But if an entire generation was dying of cancer, that would be a big deal. You seem to be interpreting what I’m saying as “I, personally, am having a worse time now than ten years ago”, when in fact I’ve made it clear that I, personally, am actually doing OK, but can see that IN GENERAL, people are having a worse time than 10 years ago. But keep on thinking the other thing if you like. /shrug/
Now you’ve got a cisgender person telling you what they know of the specific few trans lives they know about. Not YOUR life, just the people I know personally and am close to. And their experience, relayed to me, was that “coming out” is never a one-time thing. If it was for you, great, I’m happy for you, that certainly sounds a lot more convenient.
I’m not talking about MY children’s difficulties exclusively. I’m talking about the universality of that experience, now, compared to the universally superior experience of previous generation (e.g. me). But again, you want to make it personal, fine.
Things are getting better, but not for everyone? I only contended the first four words, so again -- we agree.
You started out by taking a little dig, for no apparent reason, at transgender people. In the context of your post as a whole, it was totally unnecessary. You trivialized the progress we’ve made. And now you’re finding all sorts of ways of ignoring that little transgression. And then you even want to extend it to the claim that for us these are the good old days. Go ahead. Keep at it.
Really? Not a single one?
/eyeroll
1. It wasn’t a dig.
2. There was a reason, and it absoutely was necessary. I fucking knew that if I didn’t acknowledge that some things had got better, some brittle smartarse would turn up and go “oh yeah? Well what about [insert thing]? That’s WAY better now than it used to be!” Stupidly, I picked “trans rights” as the thing that had definitely got better in the last 15 years, because even as it did it I knew some brittle arsehole would turn up and go “oh yeah? Well yes, they’ve improved but something something something YOU’RE an arsehole!”. And indeed so it came to pass.
3. It still wasn’t a dig. /shrug/
You want to pick a fight with someone on your own side. Go ahead. Keep at it.
Dude, you just need to accept that maybe not being murdered is not “a minor thing” for the people directly affected.
I’m reminded of a line in “Look to Windward”, where one character observes that keeping civilian casualties down to less that 1% in a major war is pretty good, to which another (the one who was actually there at the time) replies “it’s always 100% for the individual in question”.
In general, using other people’s lives (and deaths) for rhetorical flourish is not the best choice. This is not the hill to die on. Don’t be a dick about it.
What I accept is that some people can’t make the distinction between the general and the personal, and for them, everything is and must always be about them. (See also “THIS is the experience of coming out, and fuck whatever you’ve been told by other people who’ve had a different experience, they don’t count”). I’m not dying on this hill. Like I say, whatever example I picked some pedantic shit would have crawled out to wilfully misunderstand whatever I came up with, so, y’know, whatever. What’s interesting to me is that at no stage has anyone had any disagreement with my actual point that with some exceptions (and I’m definitely not trying to come up with any other examples) in general, things definitely are shittier now than 15 years ago for most people and this, right now, is NOT the good old days. It’s almost as if I’m right or something.
“What I accept is that some people can’t make the distinction between the general and the personal, and for them, everything is and must always be about them.”
You’re simply floundering now, trying to introduce a new complaint at this late date. It’s a simple matter: you were dissing transgender people, and as a transgender person I didn’t like it one bit.
“See also “THIS is the experience of coming out, and fuck whatever you’ve been told by other people who’ve had a different experience, they don’t count”.
You’re harping on this point because you think you got it right, when in fact you got it wrong. Do you think I don’t listen to other transpeople, and do you think I don’t understand them better than you do?
“I obviously know little of the trans experience because I don’t make it a topic of conversation . . .”
This is what you need to bear in mind, and don’t make the mistake again of arguing with a transgender person about what transgender lives are like.
“. . . whatever example I picked some pedantic shit would have crawled out to wilfully misunderstand whatever I came up with.”
This is what you said:
“Oh sure, by some touchy-feely measures some minor things have improved (sorry, trans people, but your general increased rights and acceptance since then, while welcome, is a minor thing).”
I didn’t misunderstand that, wilfully or otherwise. We transpeople are often told that we and our lives aren’t very important, and we get tired of hearing it. Try some other example and maybe you will find a pedantic shit. We’re talking about some very real, very solid here.
A simple fact you might learn about me: I was 62 years old before I discovered what personal freedom on the deepest level is all about; 62 years old before I was legally recognized for what I am and before I gained the right to be what I am. This recognition and this right are things that cisgender people take for granted, things I don’t believe they could even imagine being without. This is not a minor thing.
And bear in mind that they’re things that most transgender people in this world will have to live their entire lives without. If you’re claiming that our lives are better now than they used to be, you need to specify which transgender people you’re talking about. Our experience is extremely disparate. There’s still plenty of transgender unhappiness in this world and will be for quite some time to come. This is not a minor thing.
“What’s interesting to me is that at no stage has anyone had any disagreement with my actual point . . .”
Then make your point and stick to that. Stick to what you know.
And please, don’t bill yourself as a friend of ours. Our friends don’t talk about us the way you do. They don’t trivialize us and our experience. And they don’t talk about us like this,
“Stupidly, I picked “trans rights” as the thing that had definitely got better in the last 15 years, because even as it did it I knew some brittle arsehole would turn up and go “oh yeah? Well yes, they’ve improved but something something something YOU’RE an arsehole!”. And indeed so it came to pass.”
if it turns out they’ve put their foot wrong. And no, it didn’t come to pass. I didn’t call you an arsehole. Would you like me to?
moonslicer,
Thank you so much for giving your perspective in these comments. I really appreciate it. While I like to think of myself as a supporter of transgender rights (and the rights of all marginalized people) and know quite a few of them personally, I know that I cannot fully appreciate what the experience is like, so hearing from people who have personal experience is always helpful in broadening my understanding.
Thanks very much, Mano. As you’ve noticed I can get pretty touchy when people are showing disrespect to transgender people, and this thread contained a bit of that.
E.g., “Things are getting better”, which is not to say that things are great. And it depends on who you’re talking about because for lots of trans folks out there, things are every bit as stinky as they’ve always been. “Things are getting better” is no cause for celebration when you consider where we started from and how far there is yet to go and how in places there’s a vicious backlash on that threatens to undo whatever progress we have made.
And then to dismiss what progress we’ve made as “minor”, we often hear stuff like that. Our opponents often tell us, “There are more important issues”, i.e., things we’d much rather be doing than considering the way we’re treating you. It’s always heart-warming to be told that you’re not considered to be very important.
And of course a common justification for this is the taunt, “You’re a vanishingly small minority”, as if that makes it OK to walk on people. It’s hard to see how it’s OK to gratuitously walk on the rights of one single individual, whoever they are. It’s an odd notion, that there has to be a certain number of you before you’re entitled to human rights.
So it goes. We carry on, and some day there may be a real reason for celebration.
Best wishes!
@ moonslicer
*applause*
@moonslicer, 22:
Yes, I think you don’t understand my friends, who you’ve never met, better than I do.
No, I don’t. That was rather the point -- SOME transgender people’s live are better now than they were [arbitrary period] ago, because rights have advanced. OBVIOUSLY it’s not true for every single trans person, any more than every single Black person’s life was better because of the civils right act or equality legislation. This is so obvious it’s rather ridiculous to point it out, but pedants be pedants.
If you’re claiming NO trans people’s lives are better now than they were, you’re going to have to show your reasoning, because THAT is the negation of what I said.
I did not and would not “bill myself” as any friend of yours. I shall accurately bill myself as a friend of, y’know, my friends, some of whom are trans and happy to have me call them friends.
Every step forward is a reason for celebration, and no minority is so small it doesn’t deserve full human rights. There are not “more important issues” than that.
Here you go, all that being said: I did not mean to offend. I did not mean to “walk on” you or what progress you’ve made. I’m happy you’ve reached the point you have and regret that it took until so late in your life. I absolutely did not mean to trivialise your experience. I’m sorry, and I shall not do it again.
Best wishes.
@ #25, Silentbob
Thanks! I’m not entirely sure I deserve it, but obviously I’ll take it. Many thanks!