Another atheist in Fargo

This is short notice, but hey, it’s not like the residents of North Dakota could have anything else planned*: August Berkshire, that other atheist in Minnesota, will be speaking in Fargo on Tuesday evening.

Tuesday, December 8, 2009, 7:00 pm – August Berkshire, past vice president of Atheist Alliance International, will do his one-hour presentation “Exploring Atheism” for a meeting hosted by Atheists, Agnostics & Secular Humanists (AASH) in the Rose Room of Memorial Union, North Dakota State University (NDSU), Fargo, ND. Free and open to the public.

*After that opening potshot, the North Dakotans will be snarling at me…it’s OK, of the two noisy atheists in Minnesota, August is the nice one. Go see him and find out.

That Bergman-Myers debate

Well.

It was a strange event. Kittywhumpus and Greg Laden have good detailed breakdowns of the debate, so you can always read those for the audience perspective. As for me, I’ve learned that you can never prepare for a debate.

I tried. I had a focus — the topic, chosen by Bergman, was “Should Intelligent Design be taught in the schools” — and what I prepared for my side was a set of arguments on that point. I used my own experience teaching biology to lay down a few principles: to teach a subject as science, you need an explanatory mechanism or theory that provides a conceptual framework for understanding the data, and you need a body of evidence, real-world observations, measurements, and experiments that you incorporate as well as you can into the theory. I explained that Intelligent Design, in the estimation of scientists and by its proponents own admission, lacked both. Therefore, it didn’t belong in the science classroom. It is not enough for a science teacher to simply declare that “some people think an intelligent agent intervened at some point in the history of some species”, she needs specifics. She needs to be able to answer questions about how and when this intervention occurred, and how we know it. I explained that whenever IDists try to concretely define what they would teach in the classroom, it’s never about their theory or their evidence, because they have none, but that it’s always reduced to a laundry list of gripes about evolution…and I predicted that that’s all we’d hear from Bergman.

I thought it was a good argument, anyway. Too bad the other guy never addressed it.

Also, I read Bergman’s dreadful long book, Slaughter of the Dissidents. It’s entirely about how cruelly Intelligent Design creationists’ careers were cut short by a reactionary establishment that unfairly silences new ideas. It’s complete BS, but I prepared brief rebuttals of some of the major instances he wrote about, like the cases of Rodney LeVake and Carolyn Crocker and Guillermo Gonzalez and a few others, just in case. There was no just in case needed.

Fortunately, I’ve come off a couple of big science meetings, so I had at the tip of my brain several pro-science case studies, good examples of theory guiding science to produce productive information. This, also, was not needed.

There was a point in the debate where I did just throw a stack of my notes over my shoulder. They were pointless.

Bergman’s argument was bizarre and irrational. We got a long biographical introduction in which he described bouncing about from atheism to faith to a different faith, and how nobody liked him because he was an ideological pariah (I felt like mentioning that there might be other, more personal reasons people avoid the crazy person, but that would have been cruel). He made concessions and seemed to think I was right that ID lacks a strong theory, but that that wasn’t important — you don’t need theory. He teaches medical school, and he just teaches the facts.

There were two linchpins to his argument, neither of which addressed the topic at hand.

One is that he had scientifically proven that there were no such thing as vestigial organs, therefore evolution is false. How did he do this? By redefining “vestigial” to mean “having no function at all”, so all he had to do was demonstrate that it did or potentially did anything to make his case. One problem: that’s not the definition. Vestigial organs are those that are greatly reduced in one species relative to a homologous organ in another species. He kept returning to the appendix, like a dog to its vomit, all night long.

He did a lot of quirky redefinitions throughout the evening. Apparently, everything is religion, and he seemed to be on the verge of claiming that teaching science in the science classroom was a violation of the separation of church and state. He had this bizarre case of a teacher somewhere who was fired for posting the periodic table in his classroom. The periodic table was his religion, you see. I could not make sense of what he was saying, or understand how it related to the topic of the debate, and I asked for confirmable details and mentioned that I’d read his book, but didn’t remember that story anywhere in it…to which he replied that it was in volume II, and that the book was just the first in a 5-volume series. My brain briefly whited out at that revelation, and there was a moment or two in which, if I’d said anything, it would have been a chain of profanities. I kept my cool, never fear.

Oh, by the way, the periodic table is irreducibly complex. That’s also why the administration hated it.

That was his second key point: everything is irreducibly complex. He has this radical, dare I say insane, version of irreducible complexity in his head in which everything except sub-atomic particles are irreducibly complex. A carbon atom, for instance, has a specific number of protons, neutrons, and electrons, and if you change those, it is no longer a carbon atom, and therefore it fits Michael Behe’s definition of IC perfectly. Here’s Behe’s definition, if you need reminding.

By irreducibly complex I mean a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning. An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly (that is, by continuously improving the initial function, which continues to work by the same mechanism) by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional. An irreducibly complex biological system, if there is such a thing, would be a powerful challenge to Darwinian evolution.

Bergman claims that everything is IC. Which I suppose one could support with an exceptionally naive reading of the definition, in which case Behe’s argument that you need intelligent agents to create irreducibly complex systems is effectively refuted, since natural processes going on in the sun are producing irreducibly complex carbon right now. I expressed some incredulity at Bergman’s use of the term, and actually, horrendously, guiltily spent a moment defending Behe’s definition, which made me feel so dirty inside. I need a high colonic right now.

And that was it. That was his side of the debate. The only surprise left at the end was that yes, of course, Bergman puked out the “evolution leads to Hitler” argument, well past the time at which I could rip into that ugly lie. Talking to people afterwards, that seems to have been one of the most memorable moments, when Bergman briefly took off his cheerful loony yokel mask and revealed the ugly hater beneath.

Then we got a long parade of questions from both sides of the aisle (did I mention the joint was packed? It was one of the larger crowds I’ve had). Mark Borrello was a fabulous moderator — we didn’t work him too hard during the debate itself, since we both managed to hew fairly close to our allotted time slots, but he was an excellent enforcer in the Q&A, cutting short those long pronouncements we often get in these kinds of events. I did notice that he was practically choking himself after the Hitler bomb was dropped — as a historian of science himself, he would have been the perfect fellow to dismantle that nonsense, but then of course his neutrality as moderator would have been blown.

Afterwards, I joined a group from CASH and Minnesota Atheists to, I guess, celebrate. It was a total rout, I’m afraid. I have no idea what the creationists did.

And finally, we left the Twin Cities after midnight for the long drive home. I can tell I’m not going to be good for much of anything today.

(Oh, the inevitable question: yes, it was videotaped by the creationists. They said a DVD will be available. I don’t know when; somehow, I don’t think they’ll be in an enthusiastic rush to get this one out.)

Oh, yeah…that debate

For those who were wondering, it’s still happening. 7:30pm tonight, at the North Star Ballroom in the St Paul Student Center, 2017 Buford Ave. S. The topic is “Should Intelligent Design be Taught in the Schools?”. I’ll be there. It’s going to be recorded. I’ll probably be available for conversation afterwards, briefly…I still have to drive all the way back to Morris tonight.

The infamous Skatje will also be in attendance.

What’s the opposite of education?

Plans are afoot to build a creation “science” education center in Henning, Minnesota — about two hours north of Morris. They plan to push the simple-minded literalist creationist claim that the earth is 6,000 years old and peddle the same BS that the Creation “Museum” does — it’s stark raving mad. These quotes tell the whole story:

The aim, Schultz said, is to provide families and young people with information they can use to respectfully question differing points of view they may encounter, like at school.

“What we’re finding is, many kids are subject to ridicule, lower grades, being laughed at, just because they lay forth different arguments and different interpretations of the same information,” Schultz said.

The Rev. George Sagissor, who is working to help create the learning center, said he ran into similar reactions when he attended the University of Minnesota-Morris in the 1960s.

He recalled one lecture when he said he politely raised his hand to ask a question from a creation standpoint and was asked to leave the class.

“We don’t get a chance to let our point of view be heard because we’re put down and we’re asked to shut up,” Sagissor said.

I am pleased to see that my university has a long tradition of dealing with nonsense appropriately. I’m sure that creations was polite in his questions, but I’d like to know more about the instructor’s response: I’m sure whoever he or she was was equally polite, and addressed the question in a proper way…and if the student was actually asked to leave, it was because he was being disruptive and a distraction.

Students should be subject to lower grades when they give wrong answers. Schultz is wrong, because creationists do not deal with the same information — they are selective, ignore all of the evidence that contradicts their claims, and give very, very bad arguments for their position. They invite ridicule; stupid is as stupid does, after all.

The claim of persecution is typical, too. Here they are, free to express their uninformed opinion, and even able to muster the money to build little echo chambers where they can babble about Flood Geology to each other, and they mistake the fact that real scientists are also free to point and laugh at the goofy superstitions of these wackaloons as evidence of oppression.

More reasons not to debate creationists

I’m going to be in this silly debate on “Should Intelligent Design Be Taught In The Schools?” with creationist kook Jerry Bergman on 16 November, sponsored by CASH and the local Kook Central. The latest hangup, though, is that the creationists want to have a pre- and post-debate survey, and they plan to give the audience these questions:

I think intelligent design should be taught alongside evolution in all schools, public and private.
Strongly Disagree Disagree Undecided Agree Strongly Agree

I think intelligent design should be taught alongside evolution by teachers who support it, without punishment.
Strongly Disagree Disagree Undecided Agree Strongly Agree

I think that as a minimum, the evidence against evolution should be taught alongside evidence for evolution.
Strongly Disagree Disagree Undecided Agree Strongly Agree

I’ve told them that that last question is simply unacceptable: it’s misleading, prejudicial, and begs the question. There is no evidence against evolution. If there were, I’d agree — teach it. However, until they can say something specific, I’m not going to let them get away with sneaking in a stupid loaded question to their audience ahead of time.

I explained that as is, I’d answer that question with “strongly agree”, because I think that evidence should be taught…but that I know they want to use it to pretend that there is some substantial support for teaching creationism, which is not the case.

Much waffling is going on on their part. I’ve put my foot down: cut the question out. They’re trying to weasel in some fuzzy alternative that will have the same effect. The first two questions are fine, they directly address the subject of the debate more specifically (that is, “Intelligent design”), but the last is just an open-ended bit of noise that they want to use to justify their anti-science agenda.

Dealing with these charlatans is aggravating on so many levels.

Shame on the University of Minnesota!

It’s disgraceful. During some football game, our mascot, Goldy the Gopher, mocked a player on the opposing team who thought it was appropriate to ostentatiously kneel down and publicly pray.

Now Goldy wasn’t the disgrace (I have a new-found respect for our goofy guy in a costume), nor was the young lady who came out and gave him a fist-bump afterwards. Hooray for them! The guy making a show of his piety…yeah, he’s a disgrace, but he’s not on the UM team. No, the real disgrace is our craven PR flacks.

Minnesota spokesman Dan Wolter says the stunt was “plainly a mistake” and the mascot didn’t intend to offend anyone or trivialize religion.

I call shenanigans. He was too trying to trivialize a religious ritual (although, admittedly, he wasn’t trivializing it quite as much as the clueless goon who thinks the almighty ruler of the universe will help him win a game), and we like him for it. I think it ought to be a Minnesota tradition to point and laugh loudly at any player who thinks he gets holy credit with a deity for catching a ball.


Greg claims it was me, but I know which of the two of us lives a lot closer to Minneapolis than the other.

You know, I’m just the guy who would run onto the field in subsequent games and make fun of the prayin’ — just to take the heat off Goldy, you know. I wonder if the opposing teams will demand extra security in the future?

First snow!

This could be ominous — we’re getting our first snowfall right now. It’s coming down wet and heavy, too.

I knew this was going to happen. I’d made arrangements for a contractor to come by and do some fairly substantial improvements to the insulation of the house — we’re having a couple of doors and a big picture window completely replaced — and I told them it would be highly desirable to have this done before the snow arrived…and they told me yeah, yeah, they’d be out within a couple of weeks. They said that two weeks ago. So I knew they’d never get here in time and that we’d have an early snowfall.

Sorry, Minnesotans, you can blame me.