In two weeks, I’m going to be attending the American Atheists convention in Minneapolis. I went back and forth on whether to go or not. I’ve never questioned the fact that I’m an unrepentant atheist, but I have struggled with the implementation of the atheist movement.
The last time I was actively involved with an organized atheist event was in 2016. Nine years ago! And that event was a glorious trip to Beijing, China to talk to a group of scientists/the public, organized by American Atheists. I enjoyed it immensely, visited the Great Wall, the Forbidden City, all the tourist sites. I was paired with David Silverman, then president of the group, who was fun to be with, especially since I wasn’t a woman. Unfortunately, shortly after we got back to the US, all hell broke loose, Silverman was fired, his family rejected him, it was incredibly ugly — it was sexual abuse and potential misuse of organization funds, etc. Was I disillusioned with the whole atheist movement, again? You betcha.
I considered dipping my toes back in the waters, especially since it was so conveniently close. Now I’m going to dive in and see what people are doing. American Atheist’s organization seems to be rightfully on track, with good people running the show — Silverman was replaced by Nick Fish, which was a huge improvement in values, if less flamboyance. The problem with atheism is that, as we all know, there are plenty of assholes who are members of the group, and you can’t expect to avoid jerks by hanging out with atheists. In fact, when the speaker list for the Minneapolis conference was published, I saw there was one colossal asshole featured, which was discouraging, but I figure I can tolerate one — it’s inevitable — and I just won’t be attending their talk and will be avoiding them scrupulously.
There are plenty of good atheists in attendance, but I wouldn’t mind if a few more of you were to attend and dilute the bad ones a bit more.
Anyway, I’ll let you all know how it goes. If nothing else, it’ll be a weekend in the big city.
I do wonder which of the people listed is the colossal asshole though.
One Fish Two Fish. Which one is red and which is blue?
I’ve thought about going to events like this, except I’m not a talker.
I feel insecure being amongst the throng.
a few names are vaguely familiar but mostly i have no idea who any of them are. no help in the asshole spotting.
Maybe the asshole is me.
Ah! I had a suspicion of who it might be and after a little bit of searching, I think I figured it out (he – I guess that’s a hint – has been mentioned on this blog before).
Another hint: look through those images and tell me which one of those speakers probably owns a trilby. I’m pretty sure that’s him.
It doesn’t surprise me that there are a fair number of assholes among atheists.
For some people, it’s painfully obvious that the attraction of atheism is that it gives them a rationale to believe they are superior to all those inferior beings who don’t agree with them — and to openly sneer at them.
IMHO, it doesn’t matter what you believe, it’s what you DO that matters. Beliefs matter only insofar as they affect what you do, especiall what you do to other people. (Or other creatures. Or the world….)
Eric O’s hint was right on. If you pick the one that looks like he’s probably an asshole, and then search Pharyngula for his name, you’ll probably get it on the first try.
Is Seth Andrews still caping for the right? Last I heard he was a Libertarian dickhead.
Jesus Fucking Christ, why the naming avoidance?
Maybe you and Mehta can talk, if he’s there.
Allison @7: Well said.
@7 What are you even talking about? Caping for the Right? Libertarian? Do we read and listen to the same Seth Andrews? Guy is as progressive as they come.
@9 Meant to be a response Robert… sorry about that.
The problem isn’t atheists; it’s men. A certain type of man, anyway, who will if given a position of authority abuse it whether it’s in an atheist group, a church, Hollywood, or any other setting.
Maybe it would be a good idea to only promote women and LGBTQ people into positions of authority for a while …
@Bekenstein Bound, any group of humans will contain assholes if the group does not exclude them, even women, LGBTQ+, and members of the autism spectrum.
Gender essentialism, eh, BB?
(Does that include trans men?)
Robert Westbrook @9 HE never was. He naively believed their movement could be defeated out in the open through good faith debate, as per the old liberal academic values. It took him longer than some to understand that engaging that way gives up a lot of important ground without a fight regardless of how the debate turns out, the fallout of which cost him a lot of social capital at the time.
@ 15 Morales
https://iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#Division
Silentbob, I like your script kiddie technique.
Apply it, if you dare.
Go on.
Not that I’m allowed to have fun with you, but surely you will sustain your attempted insinuation.
Go for it.
@ Morales
Also, to add to your off topic diversion, you don’t understand “essentialism”. In the context you’ve used it means attributes of a given gender are necessarily present (essential), but no such claim was made.
“Women are devalued in society”, is not a claim it is intrinsic to women to be worth less, for example.
Thing is, you don’t apprehend how well I understand it, and you are jaundiced towards me.
(tsk)
As to what you imagine the diversion to be, I can’t say.
I most specifically and directly addressed a claim by BB, so if there were any such debouchment, it is not oif my doing.
(Did you know truth machine was my sifu? Via vibe only, but hey!)
Ahem.
I literally quote:
Go for it. Tell me in what manner you imagine men do not necessarily possess the attributes of a given gender (the masculine one).
So, a man may be someone who does not possess the attributes of manhood, as you see it.
—
Yeah, well, had the actual claim been , you’d perhaps have a point.
(Do you even get you’ve supported my stance and dissed BB’s thereby?)
Silentbob, Morales: how about if you just stop talking to and about each other?
PZ@23 second thattt.
I’m only responding, PZ.
Do you want me to not respond to insults and snipes, then?
Cis men do seem to be over represented among the arseholes, although as our host demonstrates a few of them are ok
John Morales @25
What was your @17 if not carrying your beef with BB over from a previous thread? Granted SB should have stayed silent toward you, and alas yet another thread becomes what Gordon Solie would famously call a pier six brawl. As the stoics would say, it’s in your response.
Hemidactylus, my #17 was noting the gender essentialism.
Men are the problem, that is the actual claim I addressed.
As I always do. I quote a claim, I address it.
Said claim is that it’s the gender which is the problem.
Not the attitude, not a lack of knowledge, not the acculturation, but masculinity itself.
Notice it’s not even a subset of men, it’s just men.
Thus my reference to trans men.
An allusion to manhood.
A test.
What makes a man, if not masculinity?
Anyway.
It was about responding to a silly claim, one which I see as virtue signalling.
It was not personal, other than I noted the commenter to whom I responded, as I generally do if it’s applicable.
So, no.
It’s very much a reach to imagine it was a personal attack, as I have to cope with daily.
I’m not gonna be fucking mealy-mouthed, and I’m not gonna be intimidated by persistent pestering.
In the end, if these people did not do what they do, I could not possibly retort.
Again: I am not the initiator, though you tried so hard to pretend I am.
—
“Granted SB should have stayed silent toward you, and alas yet another thread becomes what Gordon Solie would famously call a pier six brawl.”
The alternative is that I just sit back and cop abuse.
So that I don’t disrupt things, right?
Fuck that.
Responses can only ever occur upon provocation, which is duly tautological.
Also, what stoics would actually say is that coping with the kickback to one’s responses is factored in.
(Also, did you notice how the big stoics in literature happened to be rich and powerful and privileged people? I did)
—
BTW, have you noticed I always address claims first, and only ever get into personal attributes once I am responding to the like?
Here’s my #17:
“Gender essentialism, eh, BB?”
Now, I could type it all out, or copy/paste Bekenstein Bound, but I chose to write BB.
Like, just typing stuff, and it was bleeding obvious who I addressed, no?
Tell you what, is saying the problem is ‘men’ not gender essentialism, in your view?
Thing is, I address claims (propositions), and others attack me (personal beef).
—
I am quite direct when people are direct, no?
HUMANS are the problem!
Clearly, the atheist organizations should be run by CATS.
Oh wait, CATS are assholes. It is known. Oh well.
I’m telling you both to shut the fuck up.
This is so much like dealing with snotty five year olds.
[meta]
OK, I shall ignore him henceforth, PZ.
On top of avoiding proper pedantry, and on top of restricting my comments to one per.
—
“He did it first!”, BTW, is not itself a determinant.
The determinant is that it would not happen if he didn’t do it first, and so stopping him perforce stops me too.
Perhaps consider how Trump wants both Ukraine and Russia to stop fighting, both are considered guilty.
(Same thing; Ukraine only fights because Russia provokes it, so whence the purported equivalence?)
Remembering Margaret Thatcher and autocrat Indira Ghandi, it is obvious being an asshole is not gender-dependent.
The more we get equality, the more female assholes.
.
Snarki @ 29
I have read capuchin monkeys have a lot of empathy. Let them run the event. With an yautja as bouncer.
Also, you should have the ‘God Awful Movies’ gang do a gig at the event.
Downside: some of the films they dig up kill all optimism about the human species. Flat Earth documentaries, creationists, the alien abductors are demons in disguise, etc.
I know exactly one person on that speaker list, so I think that is a good sign as far as my distancing myself from organised atheism is concerned.
@15,
“The problem isn’t atheists; it’s men.”
For organised atheism, this is demonstrably not the whole truth, as anyone who’s been around these parts for a while will be able to attest to. (without dropping any names, we all know them)