On the nightly CBS news on the 14th, I was struck by the reporters’ insistence on stressing that the protesters THREW ROCKS and BURNED TIRES (apologies for the caps, but they were audibly present in the reports in question). They just kept saying it over and over; the Palestinians THREW ROCKS and BURNED TIRES and then they just… sort of died, somehow. How was apparently a mystery, and if even it’s not, we must remember that they were THROWING ROCKS and BURNING TIRES, and maybe even TRYING TO CLIMB WALLS. I say “maybe” because they just sort of fell down and died before they got there. Somehow. We Don’t. Know. Why. It’s just one of those things Palestinians do, I guess, like THROWING ROCKS and BURNING TIRES.
msm16says
But haven’t you heard?!?! the New York Times is a far LEFT RAG! It’s so far t the left that it doesn’t actually employ any leftists! CONSPIRACY IT WRAPS AROUND THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM TO SMEAR THE RIGHT WITH WHAT WE SAY!!!!!!!ELEVENTY!!!
Seriously though the news culture of the USA is so Right wing its embarrassing, and what makes it even worse is that the clowns who run the song and dance think that they are being ‘fair’ or ‘even-handed.’
nomadiqsays
I’m waiting for these opinion writers to claim their words are taken out of context (they aren’t), it was different for European Jews (sure, fascist tactics are responsive to historical and geographical factors, but fascists are fascists) and to attack them and Israel is anti-Semitic (an idiotic or deliberate categorical error).
Their words are only in support of genocide and apartheid. I have nothing but disgust for these people.
kurt1says
Everything to the left from right is left. And the further right you go, the more “far left” everything else becomes. The german mainstream media is also full of apologetics for the murder of palestinian people with the same dumb argument, that it is somehow Hamas fault, that IDF snipers are killing and mutilating people.
as I live in Warsaw right now and visited Israel recently I feel a little uncomfortable with this graphic and the comparison it makes.
Germany in WW2 was way worse than Israel is today, Jews in Warsaw Ghetto and Żydowska Organizacja Bojowa are smeared if you want to compare them to Palestinians and Hamas.
Not that it is ok what IDF is doing, but in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the only good guys are those who don’t fight at all.
It is not even Israeli-Palestinian, as Palestinians are used as canon fodder, as hostages by Iran and other arabic nations in the region.
Palestine was supposed to be divided between Israel and Arabs in 1948, since then Arabs attacked Israel trying to destroy it at least 3 times. Not take part, but to destroy it. And Israel neighbours still want to destroy it.
No one treats seriously Germans who want back Szczecin or Gdańsk, nor Poles who want back Lviv and Vilnius, so why do anyone expect that Palestinians have a right to demand Jerusalem back only because they want it?
Are you ready to give back Manhattan to the Native Americans if they start planting bombs in schoolbuses? Are you ready to stand up to Russia for Crimea? To China in defense of Tibet? It is not an issue where one side is morally perfect and other a total evil.
I will repeat myself – I am far from saying IDF are a good guys. Snipers shouldn’t shoot at people throwing stones (I have no expertise to say when you should be able to escalate the force).
But riots in Gaza strip are not Martin Luther King talking about a dream, they are like armed Charlottesville mob talking about killing all muslims in USA for comparison and led by people who are already responsible for acts of terror.
Israel can’t allow for Palestinians to have their own state on Western Bank. Jordan rift is a natural anti tank barrier, neccessary for Israel to survive. Independent Palestine with their own army (or allowing Syria/Jordania/Iran to send their army to them) would be in position to shell most of the Israel and then drive to the sea.
And even if the risk of it is small, you can’t expect Israelis to take it.
Any solution to Palestine situation, whether it is one-state or two-state needs to address not only Israel but also the whole region. And with Iran in the region USA is not ready to commit enough
I only hope it will not be a repeat from Iraq or Libia – that US involvement gave European Union million refugees a year to dealt with.
TL;DR
you can blame Israel as much as you want, but don’t pretend Hamas is a group of peaceful protesters.
John Moralessays
Maciej,
Germany in WW2 was way worse than Israel is today, Jews in Warsaw Ghetto and Żydowska Organizacja Bojowa are smeared if you want to compare them to Palestinians and Hamas.
It was as bad as it gets. Yes. The Holocaust was as bad as it gets. Yes.
Still. A ghetto is a ghetto by any other name, and the world can see that.
The shoe is on the other foot now.
(or, yes, Israel is less bad now than were the Nazis then. Kudos?)
I will repeat myself – I am far from saying IDF are a good guys. Snipers shouldn’t shoot at people throwing stones (I have no expertise to say when you should be able to escalate the force).
Your natural human instinct no less than your intellect knows, but your indoctrination evidently remains. Who the hell needs expertise to know shooting unarmed people at a distance who cannot possibly hurt you is not a necessity?
Israel can’t allow for Palestinians to have their own state on Western Bank.
Therefore Israel does its best to disallow Palestinians having their own state, as it once did.
Its borders with Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan are allowed, but with Palestine, not-so-much.
Historically, before this Israel was, Palestine was. Alas, now Israel is, and it has stolen Jerusalem among other lands.
(Whyever would thieves return their stolen loot?)
And even if the risk of it is small, you can’t expect Israelis to take it.
Israel cannot be expected to take any risk, no matter how small. Got it.
TL;DR
you can blame Israel as much as you want, but don’t pretend Hamas is a group of peaceful protesters.
Whyever would anyone blame Israel for their (safely-ensconced) snipers killing unarmed people a good distance from their borders? Arem’t they all Hamas?
—
FWIW, I once had sympathy for Israel. Now, the truth is apparent.
JoeBuddhasays
So far left they’ve wrapped around?
KGsays
as hostages by Iran and other arabic nations in the region. – Maciej Gorzkowski@6
Congratulations! you’ve just proved by the extent of your ignorance that you have no fucking business commenting on anything in the region. Iran is not an “Arabic nation”, lackwit.
since then Arabs attacked Israel trying to destroy it at least 3 times.
And Israel has also attacked Arab states. Of the major wars since 1948, only in 1973 did Arab states launch the actual war; Israel did so in 1956 (attacking Egypt in conspiracy with the UK and France), in 1967 (although arguably in this case Israel merely anticipated an imminent attack), and in 1982 (the invasion of the smaller and much weaker state of Lebanon). Moreover, even if the Arab states had been solely to blame for all the wars the Palestinians Israel is oppressing are not responsible for the actions of those states. Only racists blame all the members of an ethnic group for the actions of some.
so why do anyone expect that Palestinians have a right to demand Jerusalem back only because they want it?
Your ignorance is on display once more. Until 1967, Israel held only West Jerusalem. They took East Jerusalem in the 1967 war, along with the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan Heights (and Sinai, which they have since returned to Egypt in a peace treaty). It is contrary to international law to annex, or build settlements in, territory taken in war. Israel, as a member of the UN, is bound by that law, but flagrantly defies it, with American backing.
Israel can’t allow for Palestinians to have their own state on Western Bank.
The Israeli government still says it is prepared to do so in return for peace*, so you are adopting the public position of the Israeli far right.
Are you ready to give back Manhattan to the Native Americans if they start planting bombs in schoolbuses? Are you ready to stand up to Russia for Crimea? To China in defense of Tibet?
Classic “whataboutery”; almost always a sign of a dishonest defence of an ethically indefensible position.
But riots in Gaza strip are not Martin Luther King talking about a dream, they are like armed Charlottesville mob talking about killing all muslims in USA for comparison and led by people who are already responsible for acts of terror.
No doubt you would have said precisely the same in defense of the apartheid regime in South Africa, against the ANC. During my time in the Anti-Apartheid Movement, I came across many such apologias for racist oppression and violence. Maybe you are even old enough to have been one of them.
And with Iran in the region USA is not ready to commit enough
Dishonest nonsense. Iran is just a convenient scapegoat. It is no threat whatsoever to the USA, nor even a significant threat to Israel – which, unlike Iran, has nuclear weapons. The actual American objection to the Iranian regime is not oppression at home (it’s far less oppressive than Saudi Arabia), or support for terrorists (Saudi Arabia and the UAE are at least as culpable there), but that it persists in acting as if Iran were an independent state.
don’t pretend Hamas is a group of peaceful protesters.
No one has done so. The criticism is that the Israeli response to the protestors is grossly disproportionate.
It is very telling that the defenders of Israel’s oppression and slaughter of Palestinians are as ignorant and dishonest as you,
*The Israeli government may of course be lying, but that is its public position.
Others have pointed out at length where and why you are wrong. I just want to ask a question or two…
Israel can’t allow for Palestinians to have their own state on Western Bank.
Okay, if we take this as true, what is your solution? If Palestinians are not to be given their own state, then should they not be given full rights, including voting rights, in the state which dictates the laws and regulations under which they live; the state of Israel? If no, then why not?
Jeremy Shaffersays
msm16 at 2:
Seriously though the news culture of the USA is so Right wing its embarrassing, and what makes it even worse is that the clowns who run the song and dance think that they are being ‘fair’ or ‘even-handed.’
The mainstream media outlets in the U.S. is being fair and even-handed… to the corporate overlords that own them. I mean, the average newscaster or host these days are just there because they look look pretty while reading a teleprompter. They’re not paid to think about or consider what they’re saying, they’re not paid to hold anyone’s feet to the fire*; they’re paid to just say it and that’s all.
And, while we’re at it, the audience also isn’t supposed to think about it or scrutinize what they’re told**. As noted, the NYT is supposedly a left-leaning news outlet, but since a look at its history of reporting would tell us the paper is more centrist- if not often right of center- that attribute arises only from the fact we are told it’s left-leaning.
* Unless it’s someone the corporate overlords disagree with or threaten the status quo, and only if they allow some representative to actually appear before the audience. Usually they’re just sniped at from a distance from the pretty people on screen.
** Not that many can. Not for lack of ability but for lack of resources, with the primary one being time. A good portion of the average person’s day is taken up by a job, and when they are away from that they have other responsibilities and priorities- such as family and friends and simple relaxation- that they’re unlikely to devote any of it towards figuring out if and how they’re being pumped full of bullshit on a daily basis. Not to mention the source of the bullshit they’re pumped full of is so multitudinous that even focusing on one can be difficult and unproductive.
@ John Morales #7
>> Still. A ghetto is a ghetto by any other name, and the world can see that.
Still, there is a difference between Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza Strip, that was all I said. The fact the one is worse doesn’t mean the other is ok, but they are not equal. That was all what I pointed out. Both bad but not the same.
>> Your natural human instinct no less than your intellect knows, but your indoctrination evidently remains. Who the hell needs expertise to know shooting unarmed people at a distance who cannot possibly hurt you is not a necessity?
What indoctrination? Where I wrote about shooting unnarmed people at a distance?
I specifically wrote IT IS NOT acceptable to shoot people that don’t pose real threat.
I acknowledged that soldiers shooting would be understandable IF there was a real threat (what is really obvious), but I can’t say when exactly the real threat starts. However, I never suggested I see a reason to think protests in Gaza reached that level.
>> Its borders with Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan are allowed, but with Palestine, not-so-much.
And I explained why – geography. Israel is indefensible without West Bank in case of war with its neghbours.
Ok, look, I don’t think Israel are a good guys there or that they should be doing what they are doing, only that I understand their reasons. If you ignore what one side of the conflict wants, you cannot create acceptable solution.
Even if Israel is mistaken in their assessment of situation you will not convince them without addressing their worries and reasons.
>> Historically, before this Israel was, Palestine was. Alas, now Israel is, and it has stolen Jerusalem among other lands.
(Whyever would thieves return their stolen loot?)
Quite a lot of territorries in the world belonged previously to other nations. Who often also got them by stealing them from someone else.
Unfortunately there is no objective way to determine who deserves any specific territory the most. People who live there now, who lived there 70 years ago, those whose ancestors lived there 200 years ago?
I am not saying Israel deserves this territory and Palestinians don’t. But I acknowledge that it is not a simple case of “lets give everything to one side
>> Israel cannot be expected to take any risk, no matter how small. Got it.
You have no authority to demand from Israel to accept a risk of total annihilation because you think it is small. And you wouldn’t do that yourself.
Even if we agree Israel should allow Palestinians to have their own state, you cannot demand that from Israel unless you can address their worries and security.
>> Whyever would anyone blame Israel for their (safely-ensconced) snipers killing unarmed people a good distance from their borders? Arem’t they all Hamas?
That’s a really nasty strawman, as I never endorsed current shootings at Gaza.
It is possible that Hamas is bad, Hamas plays a part in escalating the situation in Gaza and Israeli response is totally unacceptable and a crime.
I wrote that not to take out blame out of IDF, only to protest simple dychotomy
“Israel is bad so Hamas is good”.
@KG #9
are we gonna call each other names now?
I admit it was sloppy on my side the way I wrote it – I moved part of the text and didn’t notice the glaring misconception I created, the word “other” should have been removed. I apologise
But do we call them “Iran and arabic nations in the area”, “Israel neighbours and Iran”, “muslim nations in the area” – it is secondary to the issue.
Let’s say the nations in region that openly state Israel is their enemy just because it exists.
So with that cleared up, lets move to the main issue.
PZMyers is recently suggesting in his posts Palestinians are moreless good here and deserve what they want (A), Israel is bunch of bad murderers who kill innocent protesters (B)
What I wanted to write was:
(A) is not completely true, (B) is probably mostly true, however you have to understand their point of view if you want to convince them to anything.
unfortunately, in the age of the internet, in any heated topic if someone disagrees on even a minor issue, the go to reaction is to assume that the other guy believes EVERYTHING you disagree with.
That’s why you interpreted what I wrote as
(A) is totally untrue (B) is totally untrue.
and called me abhorrent racist defending ethically indefensible position.
which is ironic, cause my argument (which I probably didn’t state good enough) is “no matter who is wrong and who is right here are some issue that must be addressed”
My points are equally valid whether you believe “Ashkenazi Jews are not descendant of ancient Jews and have no right to the land in Palestine so State if Israel must be destroyed” and “All palestinians are terrorists and Israel has the right to defend its people” (I do not hold any of those statements)
I know the history you mentioned. 1948, 1967, 1973 – three wars that were fought with a goal to remove Israel from the map.
That doesn’t mean that Israel got the moral right to all the territory it keeps. All I mean is that Israel has a good reason to be afraid of it’s neighbours.
Paradoxically, the wars you can blame on Israel, only mean that Israel has more reason to be afraid of it’s neighbours if it wronged them.
My point is not about who DESERVES the Jerusalem or the West Bank territory, only that Israel has a reasons to believe that they can’t afford to give it away no matter of they are right or wrong here.
>> Your ignorance is on display once more. Until 1967, Israel held only West Jerusalem. They took East Jerusalem in the 1967 war, along with the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan Heights (and Sinai, which they have since returned to Egypt in a peace treaty).
I know the history of Israel conquest of this territory – that’s why I wrote about Palestinians wanting Jerusalem BACK. I decided not to go into details which part was taken when, because it just muddies the water here. Is it a deliberate dishonest tactic of some kind?
>>Classic “whataboutery”; almost always a sign of a dishonest defence of an ethically indefensible position.
Almost. But I don’t want to defend either side on the ethical argument.
International Law is a nice ideal, but the reality is that once original population is displaced for some time it is unlikely situation will come back to the original. I don’t believe Palestinians will come back to Jerusalem because that’s where their grandparents live, the same way I don’t expect Ukraine will get back Crimea or that anyone will try move Szczecin to Germany. History doesn’t matter if there are no original citizens left there.
Ok, you go off the rail then calling me racist apartheid lover and all other nonsense.
Yes Israel is ready to give up territory for peace – but peace with Palestinians only will\ not work, regardles of who is morally right here.
@Daz: Uffish, yet slightly frabjous
>>Okay, if we take this as true, what is your solution? If Palestinians are not to be given their own state, then should they not be given full rights, including voting rights, in the state which dictates the laws and regulations under which they live; the state of Israel? If no, then why not?
my point is that Israelis feel they need security and that indfependent Palestine is a threat as long as all the neighbours are hostile.
They may be wrong, but they still believe it.
If you assume that I have nothiung more to say, I just wanted you to think how to accomodate that.
If I had the working solution acceptable by both sides I would start with writing it outright.
Porivil Sorrenssays
If Israel wants to act like other aparteid states, they should be treated like other aparteid states – financial blockades, worldwide censure, and even armed intervention if they refuse to cease.
If nothing else, it shouldn’t be treated with the fawning adoration of multiple world powers if it wants to defend its rights to mass murder innocents and use them as a living border wall against invasion.
my point is that Israelis feel they need security and that indfependent Palestine is a threat as long as all the neighbours are hostile.
That may be the point you thought you made, but it sure ain’t what you said.
But okay, you’re not against a two-state solution in principle, but you do believe it to be impractical. Would that be a fair assessment of your view of the matter?
I watched a similar defender of Israel’s crimes against humanity on an Australian current affairs panel. An intelligent, articulate Palestinian activist delivered facts and figures on Israel’s crimes meanwhile the Christian fascist and Murdoch lapdog masquerading as an opinion writer spent his time interjecting and blaming the victims. The New York Times may be accused of anti-Semitism for publishing a cartoon comparing Israel to Nazi Germany but the images coming out of Palestine increasingly justify the comparison.
Derek Vandiveresays
Of course, Israel reacted exactly as Hamas was hoping, neither government really gives a crap about their people. A pox on both their houses.
On the nightly CBS news on the 14th, I was struck by the reporters’ insistence on stressing that the protesters THREW ROCKS and BURNED TIRES (apologies for the caps, but they were audibly present in the reports in question). They just kept saying it over and over; the Palestinians THREW ROCKS and BURNED TIRES and then they just… sort of died, somehow. How was apparently a mystery, and if even it’s not, we must remember that they were THROWING ROCKS and BURNING TIRES, and maybe even TRYING TO CLIMB WALLS. I say “maybe” because they just sort of fell down and died before they got there. Somehow. We Don’t. Know. Why. It’s just one of those things Palestinians do, I guess, like THROWING ROCKS and BURNING TIRES.
But haven’t you heard?!?! the New York Times is a far LEFT RAG! It’s so far t the left that it doesn’t actually employ any leftists! CONSPIRACY IT WRAPS AROUND THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM TO SMEAR THE RIGHT WITH WHAT WE SAY!!!!!!!ELEVENTY!!!
Seriously though the news culture of the USA is so Right wing its embarrassing, and what makes it even worse is that the clowns who run the song and dance think that they are being ‘fair’ or ‘even-handed.’
I’m waiting for these opinion writers to claim their words are taken out of context (they aren’t), it was different for European Jews (sure, fascist tactics are responsive to historical and geographical factors, but fascists are fascists) and to attack them and Israel is anti-Semitic (an idiotic or deliberate categorical error).
Their words are only in support of genocide and apartheid. I have nothing but disgust for these people.
Everything to the left from right is left. And the further right you go, the more “far left” everything else becomes. The german mainstream media is also full of apologetics for the murder of palestinian people with the same dumb argument, that it is somehow Hamas fault, that IDF snipers are killing and mutilating people.
It amazes me that the Israelis seem to identify not with those inside the ghetto walls, but instead with the guards.
“Yay! After centuries it’s our turn to oppress!”
as I live in Warsaw right now and visited Israel recently I feel a little uncomfortable with this graphic and the comparison it makes.
Germany in WW2 was way worse than Israel is today, Jews in Warsaw Ghetto and Żydowska Organizacja Bojowa are smeared if you want to compare them to Palestinians and Hamas.
Not that it is ok what IDF is doing, but in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the only good guys are those who don’t fight at all.
It is not even Israeli-Palestinian, as Palestinians are used as canon fodder, as hostages by Iran and other arabic nations in the region.
Palestine was supposed to be divided between Israel and Arabs in 1948, since then Arabs attacked Israel trying to destroy it at least 3 times. Not take part, but to destroy it. And Israel neighbours still want to destroy it.
No one treats seriously Germans who want back Szczecin or Gdańsk, nor Poles who want back Lviv and Vilnius, so why do anyone expect that Palestinians have a right to demand Jerusalem back only because they want it?
Are you ready to give back Manhattan to the Native Americans if they start planting bombs in schoolbuses? Are you ready to stand up to Russia for Crimea? To China in defense of Tibet? It is not an issue where one side is morally perfect and other a total evil.
I will repeat myself – I am far from saying IDF are a good guys. Snipers shouldn’t shoot at people throwing stones (I have no expertise to say when you should be able to escalate the force).
But riots in Gaza strip are not Martin Luther King talking about a dream, they are like armed Charlottesville mob talking about killing all muslims in USA for comparison and led by people who are already responsible for acts of terror.
Israel can’t allow for Palestinians to have their own state on Western Bank. Jordan rift is a natural anti tank barrier, neccessary for Israel to survive. Independent Palestine with their own army (or allowing Syria/Jordania/Iran to send their army to them) would be in position to shell most of the Israel and then drive to the sea.
And even if the risk of it is small, you can’t expect Israelis to take it.
Any solution to Palestine situation, whether it is one-state or two-state needs to address not only Israel but also the whole region. And with Iran in the region USA is not ready to commit enough
I only hope it will not be a repeat from Iraq or Libia – that US involvement gave European Union million refugees a year to dealt with.
TL;DR
you can blame Israel as much as you want, but don’t pretend Hamas is a group of peaceful protesters.
Maciej,
It was as bad as it gets. Yes. The Holocaust was as bad as it gets. Yes.
Still. A ghetto is a ghetto by any other name, and the world can see that.
The shoe is on the other foot now.
(or, yes, Israel is less bad now than were the Nazis then. Kudos?)
Your natural human instinct no less than your intellect knows, but your indoctrination evidently remains. Who the hell needs expertise to know shooting unarmed people at a distance who cannot possibly hurt you is not a necessity?
Therefore Israel does its best to disallow Palestinians having their own state, as it once did.
Its borders with Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan are allowed, but with Palestine, not-so-much.
Historically, before this Israel was, Palestine was. Alas, now Israel is, and it has stolen Jerusalem among other lands.
(Whyever would thieves return their stolen loot?)
Israel cannot be expected to take any risk, no matter how small. Got it.
Whyever would anyone blame Israel for their (safely-ensconced) snipers killing unarmed people a good distance from their borders? Arem’t they all Hamas?
—
FWIW, I once had sympathy for Israel. Now, the truth is apparent.
So far left they’ve wrapped around?
Congratulations! you’ve just proved by the extent of your ignorance that you have no fucking business commenting on anything in the region. Iran is not an “Arabic nation”, lackwit.
And Israel has also attacked Arab states. Of the major wars since 1948, only in 1973 did Arab states launch the actual war; Israel did so in 1956 (attacking Egypt in conspiracy with the UK and France), in 1967 (although arguably in this case Israel merely anticipated an imminent attack), and in 1982 (the invasion of the smaller and much weaker state of Lebanon). Moreover, even if the Arab states had been solely to blame for all the wars the Palestinians Israel is oppressing are not responsible for the actions of those states. Only racists blame all the members of an ethnic group for the actions of some.
Your ignorance is on display once more. Until 1967, Israel held only West Jerusalem. They took East Jerusalem in the 1967 war, along with the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan Heights (and Sinai, which they have since returned to Egypt in a peace treaty). It is contrary to international law to annex, or build settlements in, territory taken in war. Israel, as a member of the UN, is bound by that law, but flagrantly defies it, with American backing.
The Israeli government still says it is prepared to do so in return for peace*, so you are adopting the public position of the Israeli far right.
Classic “whataboutery”; almost always a sign of a dishonest defence of an ethically indefensible position.
No doubt you would have said precisely the same in defense of the apartheid regime in South Africa, against the ANC. During my time in the Anti-Apartheid Movement, I came across many such apologias for racist oppression and violence. Maybe you are even old enough to have been one of them.
Dishonest nonsense. Iran is just a convenient scapegoat. It is no threat whatsoever to the USA, nor even a significant threat to Israel – which, unlike Iran, has nuclear weapons. The actual American objection to the Iranian regime is not oppression at home (it’s far less oppressive than Saudi Arabia), or support for terrorists (Saudi Arabia and the UAE are at least as culpable there), but that it persists in acting as if Iran were an independent state.
No one has done so. The criticism is that the Israeli response to the protestors is grossly disproportionate.
It is very telling that the defenders of Israel’s oppression and slaughter of Palestinians are as ignorant and dishonest as you,
*The Israeli government may of course be lying, but that is its public position.
Maciej Gorzkowski #6:
Others have pointed out at length where and why you are wrong. I just want to ask a question or two…
Okay, if we take this as true, what is your solution? If Palestinians are not to be given their own state, then should they not be given full rights, including voting rights, in the state which dictates the laws and regulations under which they live; the state of Israel? If no, then why not?
msm16 at 2:
The mainstream media outlets in the U.S. is being fair and even-handed… to the corporate overlords that own them. I mean, the average newscaster or host these days are just there because they look look pretty while reading a teleprompter. They’re not paid to think about or consider what they’re saying, they’re not paid to hold anyone’s feet to the fire*; they’re paid to just say it and that’s all.
And, while we’re at it, the audience also isn’t supposed to think about it or scrutinize what they’re told**. As noted, the NYT is supposedly a left-leaning news outlet, but since a look at its history of reporting would tell us the paper is more centrist- if not often right of center- that attribute arises only from the fact we are told it’s left-leaning.
* Unless it’s someone the corporate overlords disagree with or threaten the status quo, and only if they allow some representative to actually appear before the audience. Usually they’re just sniped at from a distance from the pretty people on screen.
** Not that many can. Not for lack of ability but for lack of resources, with the primary one being time. A good portion of the average person’s day is taken up by a job, and when they are away from that they have other responsibilities and priorities- such as family and friends and simple relaxation- that they’re unlikely to devote any of it towards figuring out if and how they’re being pumped full of bullshit on a daily basis. Not to mention the source of the bullshit they’re pumped full of is so multitudinous that even focusing on one can be difficult and unproductive.
@ John Morales #7
>> Still. A ghetto is a ghetto by any other name, and the world can see that.
Still, there is a difference between Warsaw Ghetto and Gaza Strip, that was all I said. The fact the one is worse doesn’t mean the other is ok, but they are not equal. That was all what I pointed out. Both bad but not the same.
>> Your natural human instinct no less than your intellect knows, but your indoctrination evidently remains. Who the hell needs expertise to know shooting unarmed people at a distance who cannot possibly hurt you is not a necessity?
What indoctrination? Where I wrote about shooting unnarmed people at a distance?
I specifically wrote IT IS NOT acceptable to shoot people that don’t pose real threat.
I acknowledged that soldiers shooting would be understandable IF there was a real threat (what is really obvious), but I can’t say when exactly the real threat starts. However, I never suggested I see a reason to think protests in Gaza reached that level.
>> Its borders with Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan are allowed, but with Palestine, not-so-much.
And I explained why – geography. Israel is indefensible without West Bank in case of war with its neghbours.
Ok, look, I don’t think Israel are a good guys there or that they should be doing what they are doing, only that I understand their reasons. If you ignore what one side of the conflict wants, you cannot create acceptable solution.
Even if Israel is mistaken in their assessment of situation you will not convince them without addressing their worries and reasons.
>> Historically, before this Israel was, Palestine was. Alas, now Israel is, and it has stolen Jerusalem among other lands.
(Whyever would thieves return their stolen loot?)
Quite a lot of territorries in the world belonged previously to other nations. Who often also got them by stealing them from someone else.
Unfortunately there is no objective way to determine who deserves any specific territory the most. People who live there now, who lived there 70 years ago, those whose ancestors lived there 200 years ago?
I am not saying Israel deserves this territory and Palestinians don’t. But I acknowledge that it is not a simple case of “lets give everything to one side
>> Israel cannot be expected to take any risk, no matter how small. Got it.
You have no authority to demand from Israel to accept a risk of total annihilation because you think it is small. And you wouldn’t do that yourself.
Even if we agree Israel should allow Palestinians to have their own state, you cannot demand that from Israel unless you can address their worries and security.
>> Whyever would anyone blame Israel for their (safely-ensconced) snipers killing unarmed people a good distance from their borders? Arem’t they all Hamas?
That’s a really nasty strawman, as I never endorsed current shootings at Gaza.
It is possible that Hamas is bad, Hamas plays a part in escalating the situation in Gaza and Israeli response is totally unacceptable and a crime.
I wrote that not to take out blame out of IDF, only to protest simple dychotomy
“Israel is bad so Hamas is good”.
@KG #9
are we gonna call each other names now?
I admit it was sloppy on my side the way I wrote it – I moved part of the text and didn’t notice the glaring misconception I created, the word “other” should have been removed. I apologise
But do we call them “Iran and arabic nations in the area”, “Israel neighbours and Iran”, “muslim nations in the area” – it is secondary to the issue.
Let’s say the nations in region that openly state Israel is their enemy just because it exists.
So with that cleared up, lets move to the main issue.
PZMyers is recently suggesting in his posts Palestinians are moreless good here and deserve what they want (A), Israel is bunch of bad murderers who kill innocent protesters (B)
What I wanted to write was:
(A) is not completely true, (B) is probably mostly true, however you have to understand their point of view if you want to convince them to anything.
unfortunately, in the age of the internet, in any heated topic if someone disagrees on even a minor issue, the go to reaction is to assume that the other guy believes EVERYTHING you disagree with.
That’s why you interpreted what I wrote as
(A) is totally untrue (B) is totally untrue.
and called me abhorrent racist defending ethically indefensible position.
which is ironic, cause my argument (which I probably didn’t state good enough) is “no matter who is wrong and who is right here are some issue that must be addressed”
My points are equally valid whether you believe “Ashkenazi Jews are not descendant of ancient Jews and have no right to the land in Palestine so State if Israel must be destroyed” and “All palestinians are terrorists and Israel has the right to defend its people” (I do not hold any of those statements)
I know the history you mentioned. 1948, 1967, 1973 – three wars that were fought with a goal to remove Israel from the map.
That doesn’t mean that Israel got the moral right to all the territory it keeps. All I mean is that Israel has a good reason to be afraid of it’s neighbours.
Paradoxically, the wars you can blame on Israel, only mean that Israel has more reason to be afraid of it’s neighbours if it wronged them.
My point is not about who DESERVES the Jerusalem or the West Bank territory, only that Israel has a reasons to believe that they can’t afford to give it away no matter of they are right or wrong here.
>> Your ignorance is on display once more. Until 1967, Israel held only West Jerusalem. They took East Jerusalem in the 1967 war, along with the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan Heights (and Sinai, which they have since returned to Egypt in a peace treaty).
I know the history of Israel conquest of this territory – that’s why I wrote about Palestinians wanting Jerusalem BACK. I decided not to go into details which part was taken when, because it just muddies the water here. Is it a deliberate dishonest tactic of some kind?
>>Classic “whataboutery”; almost always a sign of a dishonest defence of an ethically indefensible position.
Almost. But I don’t want to defend either side on the ethical argument.
International Law is a nice ideal, but the reality is that once original population is displaced for some time it is unlikely situation will come back to the original. I don’t believe Palestinians will come back to Jerusalem because that’s where their grandparents live, the same way I don’t expect Ukraine will get back Crimea or that anyone will try move Szczecin to Germany. History doesn’t matter if there are no original citizens left there.
Ok, you go off the rail then calling me racist apartheid lover and all other nonsense.
Yes Israel is ready to give up territory for peace – but peace with Palestinians only will\ not work, regardles of who is morally right here.
@Daz: Uffish, yet slightly frabjous
>>Okay, if we take this as true, what is your solution? If Palestinians are not to be given their own state, then should they not be given full rights, including voting rights, in the state which dictates the laws and regulations under which they live; the state of Israel? If no, then why not?
my point is that Israelis feel they need security and that indfependent Palestine is a threat as long as all the neighbours are hostile.
They may be wrong, but they still believe it.
If you assume that I have nothiung more to say, I just wanted you to think how to accomodate that.
If I had the working solution acceptable by both sides I would start with writing it outright.
If Israel wants to act like other aparteid states, they should be treated like other aparteid states – financial blockades, worldwide censure, and even armed intervention if they refuse to cease.
If nothing else, it shouldn’t be treated with the fawning adoration of multiple world powers if it wants to defend its rights to mass murder innocents and use them as a living border wall against invasion.
Maciej Gorzkowski #12:
That may be the point you thought you made, but it sure ain’t what you said.
But okay, you’re not against a two-state solution in principle, but you do believe it to be impractical. Would that be a fair assessment of your view of the matter?
I watched a similar defender of Israel’s crimes against humanity on an Australian current affairs panel. An intelligent, articulate Palestinian activist delivered facts and figures on Israel’s crimes meanwhile the Christian fascist and Murdoch lapdog masquerading as an opinion writer spent his time interjecting and blaming the victims. The New York Times may be accused of anti-Semitism for publishing a cartoon comparing Israel to Nazi Germany but the images coming out of Palestine increasingly justify the comparison.
Of course, Israel reacted exactly as Hamas was hoping, neither government really gives a crap about their people. A pox on both their houses.
“Look what you made us do! You should be ashamed of yourselves!”
“They were begging to be massacred! Just look at how they were dressed!”
(Surveys field of dead people, some of whom had rocks in their hands.) “Both sides are equally at fault.”