Senator Tammy Duckworth had a baby, and Orrin Hatch stuck his foot (his own foot, not the baby’s) into his mouth. I’m not surprised that the Salt Lake Tribune took notice.
Sen. Orrin Hatch said this week he was fine allowing babies on the Senate floor, but then he asked a follow-up question of his own.
What, he mused, would happen “if there are 10 babies on the floor of the Senate?”
It seems to me that that would mean either a) there were a lot more women senators, or b) a lot more senatorial men were taking their paternal duties seriously. Both sound like good outcomes.
Leave it to a Minnesotan to make the nicest comment, though.
“We could only wish we had 10 babies on the floor,” Sen. Amy Klobuchar, D-Minn., told The AP. “That would be a delight.”
I had to choke back a comment about how there were far more than 10 Republicans already on the floor.
While I support women and the rights with their children, I have a hard time supporting the babies on the senate floor position. Simply because it’s a workplace, and babies can be disruptive. You can’t expect a powerplant operator to bring a baby to their job, nor would you expect a lawyer in a courtroom to have a baby in their arms while delivering their opening remarks and questioning witnesses. There are LOTS of jobs where it’s not appropriate, regardless of gender or love for babies and families.
Now if it’s so urgent that she returns to work ASAP baby be damned, then have a DAYCARE in the senate building to watch the children, free of charge. And yes it’s great that women can have their babies and not be punished carreer-wise over it. But there is a balance point, isn’t there?
provide proper services to accommodate sure, but these people are still professionals in a professional work environment. Not the place nor the time for babies or pets or anything else.
Well, that’s exactly the kind of attitude we need to change, isn’t it?
30 some years ago I went to an academic conference in Wisconsin held by the Iroquois. They had kids around the whole time, only conference I’ve ever been at that did so. No problems.
mamba
You know, just because you manage to avoid the dread “I’m not, but” construction, it doesn’t mean you avoid the content.
Magical word: can
Yes, babies can be disruptive and in general I agree with the idea of having daycare and stuff.
But FFS, the baby is 10 days old. The woman is 10 days from having given birth. She returns to the Senate to vote because she must be there in person and you and Orin Hatch are giving her shit for it.
If she stayed at home you’d give her shit for leaving such an important seat vacated because she gave birth.
Yep, kids can be disruptive, but fact is that we built a world that excludes them (very few jobs are actually completely unsuitable for kids to be present and then it’s usually because the place is too dangerous for the kid), decide that any kids noise is too much while adults get to be loud as fuck and expect women to take care of them somewhere where we can’t see them. That’s exactly the attitude we need to change.
Here’s an idea: few people want to tag along their kids age 0 to 6 every day everywhere. few kids want to be dragged to whatever place their parent needs to go, regardless of how many toys they pack. But sometimes that’s what has to happen and society should better finally accept that.
Most Senators spend so little time on the floor anyway (unless they’re giving a speech to a mostly empty chamber) that it’s hardly an issue.
I’m sure your president won’t mind.
Orrin Hatch knows that good parenting is someone else’s business somewhere else.
His children must be proud.
There are already more than 10 babies on the Senate floor most anytime there are more than about 20 Senators on the floor. They just don’t have their mommas with them to keep them from being disruptive.
@#6 Gilliel — I’ve always chuckled at the difference in attitudes between Catholic and Protestant countries over having one’s children about at bars and restaurants and Christmas parties, etc. In Rome and Barcelona and Dublin you see 3-year-olds scampering around pubs at midnight; in Berlin and Copenhagen they’ll look at you as a monster if you get into town and go out for dinner at 9:15 with your kids.
So sure, there’s a cultural attitude that needs to evolve, but there’s also a failure of messaging, that somehow childcare and subsidized daycare and MATERNAL leave and bringing the kid to a dentist or doctor are all women’s issues. The notion that Duckworth is “the first Senator to ever have a baby” implicitly lets men off the hook. I mean, didn’t JFK have a couple of famous babies while in the Senate? Even when we talk about “pro-choice” and “reproductive rights”, and complain about there being 15 men on the sub-committee, we’re at some level acknowledging that they aren’t equally responsible. It’s like those public-service-y nutrition ads that say “you Moms can feed your kids healthy fresh dinners at the same cost and in as little time as fast or frozen food”….um, hello, men drive past the Stop & Shop on the way home from work also!
That no man has ever needed to bring his infant to the floor of the House or Senate for a vote is borderline absurd.
Ok, as expected, my point is totally ignored. Can’t say I’m shocked, but maybe I wasn’t clear enough.
#4, The baby was 10 days old. If the rules say that she must vote in person and hence that’s the reason she had to bring her baby, then change the rule to allow her to vote by certified proxy or skype or something. But it was more political to allow her to bring her 10 day old baby into a functioning gouvernment organization instead. I would never give her shit for staying home with her child, and I say screw the vote if it’s so cut-and-dry…family means more than bureaucracy. Now when the kid becomes distruptive…WHEN the kid, not IF, will she be allowed to leave mid-sentence to deal with her child’s needs, or will the senate be expected to ignore the screaming child? Should she change the diaper when it craps itself in the senate floor, or wait until the speeches are done? See the issue?
#5, Saying “they’re barely there anyway” changes nothing…it’s still a professional environment for adults to do adult work. A surgeon doesn’t get to bring their baby into the operating room even if they’re the only human within 1000 miles who can do the procedure. I can’t wear my wedding ring when walking around the industrial power plant I work at. That’s life!
#6, I’m not even American, but thanks for showing how non-prejudgemental you are.
#7, good parenting means tending to your child, either directly or from someone else. She was forced into the decision by having a career that is serious adult work, and she’s expecting everyone ELSE to deal with any complications from forcing her child in this inappropriate work environment…just because of a vote rule. They refused to allow her to place her vote in any other manner, but they REALLY needed that vote so they couldn’t use that rule to shut her up as they would women in the past because THIS time her vote was actually desired. So they had to amend the rule to get their cake and eat it too AND make it look like they actually care about women’s issues. They don’t, and the second the baby becomes a hindrance to proceedings, you’ll see how fast it reverses itself.
Now let me ask a simple question…can a 10 day old baby be brought anywhere an adult works, literally anywhere? Cane a firefighter bring their baby on a call? A policeman, leaving it in the back of the cruiser secured while on patrol? If you say yes you better be able to defend the absurd, and if you say no then you have no counter to the senate points I raised.
…or you can just jump to conclusions, call me dumb, talk in circles, and talk in platitudes…whatever makes you feel better. Either way, she did have a cute baby, hope exposure to the senate doesn’t corrupt the kid too badly.
So long as people like Hatch are going to insist that every pregnancy end with a birth, maybe they should have to deal with so many babies in their proximity.
At least the babies are, you know, actual infants and therefore not accountable for any negative behavior on their part, which is far more than we can say for the party of “Personal Responsibility”.
We live in an absurdly age-segregated society. We supposedly value children, but they’re supposed to be kept away from everything that’s not specifically for children. This goes double (triple?) if they’re nursing. This has a huge impact on their primary care-givers, who, yes, tend to be women.
Part of making the workplace more humane is making space for family.
mamba, I do not know where you are but you are the one who is absurd.
Yes the floor of the Senate is a work place the 2 main things that take place there are political speeches and votes. Most of the “work” takes place in offices, conference rooms ,and hearing rooms and bars and restaurants.
any senator can manage their own office as they please and do. Anyone who has ever taken care of children will know how much they can tolerate and where they will be fidgety no one with any sense would take a small nursing child to a long boring committee meeting and from what I have seen on cspan a lot of the time most of the committee members do not show up either.
why sure I think NFL pro players should be able to take the babies on to the field with them! it is right!
uncle frogy
Internet Poll
Would you rather listen to:
1) a baby screaming
or
2) Donald Trump saying … anything?
mamba,
No one is saying that babies should be allowed anywhere. But the examples you have given (with the exception of the court of law) are all cases where the baby’s life, along with the lives of others, would be in danger. As for the court of law, that is a case where concentration is required, and a noisy baby would be a distraction (a quiet baby not so much). So it’s up to you to show exactly how the presence of a baby, even a crying or shitting* baby, would disrupt the work that goes on on the Senate floor. To that end my 5 is relevant, because the work that goes on on the floor isn’t terribly dangerous, and doesn’t require much concentration.
And using your logic, Shouldn’t your answers apply to the Senate as well?
*You seem not to understand the point of a diaper, which is that it allows you to put off the clean-up for a more appropriate time and place. Ideally there would be changing tables in the Capitol restrooms.
OT
Vehicular mass murder in Toronto.
You mean there are no changing tables there now? Is the building a converted goddamn gentleman’s club?
birgerjohansson,
I have no idea if they have changing tables now.
Pretty much.
Indeed, I’ve noticed the same-ish thing, and I’ll add France — or at least southern France — to the list of “scampering around pubs”. I admit I’d never before connected the difference to Catholic and non-Catholic, but I suppose there is something to that.
I myself don’t have a problem, excepting the “disruption” caused by “excessively” noisy young children, which can drive me to distraction. The possibility of that happening is not a reason to ban children, albeit (speaking mostly from my own preferences here) when it does happen, and is not “quickly contained”, I would appreciate it if the parents would take the child aside — and from my point-of-
viewhearing, out-of-earshot — to calm them down and deal with the problem.@ mamba, #10
You’re not making a rational point. You’re arguing that your prejudices should be, if not the law of the land, then at least the only acceptable custom.
I find babies deeply creepy and generally unpleasant. I’ll make any excuse to avoid going to a place where someone might ask me to touch one. I even intend to get myself sterilized to prevent myself from ever playing a role in producing one.
It’s safe to say that I fail to understand what so many people find appealing about babies. I, personally, don’t want to be around them. But, no matter how I look at it, I can’t see an actual, rational way in which having an infant present in most workplaces constitutes a substantial problem. Not in the courtroom, not in (most jobs at) a power plant,* and not on the floor of the Senate.
The kid is ten days old. They’re not going to be running around stealing people’s votes. At most, they’ll be noisy and obnoxious, and if they can outdo certain Republican Senators in that regard I’ll eat my hat.
Seriously? Fuck “professional environments.” Maybe if some of the twits in the Senate see a living reminder of how we all start out (and how many of us will end up), it’ll deflate their massive egos a bit and they’ll do some actual good for the people.
That goes for most “professional environments,” a concept for which I have a great deal of contempt. A crying baby on the Senate floor, or in a courtroom, or in the office of a power plant, is neither a safety hazard nor a threat. They also do not create a hostile work environment. They’re an annoyance. Far less of annoyance than some stuffed-up prig telling me that my untucked over-shirt is “unprofessional,” I might add. Well then you can just mop your own damn floor, sonny Jim.
All your examples of dangerous jobs are entirely irrelevant distractions in this discussion. We’re talking about a Senator. Those other jobs can be done by other people- Senators can’t send in an understudy to vote for them.
*For those jobs that would be disrupted, that’s a case for fully paid parental leave. “Senator” is not one of those jobs.
@anbheal, blf,
Yeah, my daughter used to shock her friends after a summer with amama and aitite when she would tell them about going down to the bar. Of course a bar in Spain is a much different beast than a bar in the US. One thing that annoys me here is the lack of places where you can sit and have a quick, cheap, refreshing drink of your choice.
mamba
How’s the air up on that cross?
Funny thin g but they didn’t want to do that.
Do you throw ther same temper tantrum when Trump drags Baron somewhere? When kids are present for their parent’s swearing in?
If the vote is cut and dry, right now, in the US senate?
No, it’s if. The babe is 10 days old, they mostly sleep at that age.
Also, nobody said she was giving a speech. Besides, people leave all the time during other people’s speeches. But somehow an adult’s need to pee seems reasonable. Yes, usually parents simply pick up their child and leave a place if the kid becomes seriously disruptive. But as I said before, what is seen as disruptive is quite different for kids. Existing in public is enough.
What I see is that you have apparently zero experience with babies yet want us to take you serious.
1. As it has been said, diapers conveniently hold what is in them, though you should really change a poopy one as fast as possible.
2. Yes, it’s not a restaurant table, change the diaper. The baby is 10 days old, that poop hardly smells.
I find the implied dichotomy between children present and adult work quite telling. Apparently people who work with children don’t have a professional environment and don’t do adult work.
BTW, I’ve brought my kids to work a few times. Last week one of my colleagues brought her baby to a conference where she was actually presenting the points. I’ll sure inform her that she is neither a serious professional nor a good mother, but neither am I, apparently.
It’s a bit rich for you to complain about your point being missed when you clearly ignore that I already answered that question: Some places are too dangerous for children.
Yeah, you’re such a champion of women’s rights, playing the same old song about women’s personal responsibility to choose between either having kids or a career, because for one thing, you cannot be a good mother and have a career and for the other, you must not expect that society be supportive of your motherhood.
Who are They™
Also, a few lines above you tell us how it’s all her fault…
Ahhhh, the mysterious They™ again, because it’s unpossible that Tammy Duckworth has any agency in this whole affair.
Mamba, the Senate floor is in no way a “professional work environment.” from what I’ve observed. A 10 day old baby might even raise the collective behaviour age by a considerable margin.
What a Maroon…@21, “One thing that annoys me here [States] is the lack of places where you can sit and have a quick, cheap, refreshing drink of your choice.”
Brewpub? Espresso bar (what I’d call a cafe (thinking France) except that word may be interpreted differently)? When & where I was living in the States, last century, those — which, admittedly were “European-style” — could do the trick (albeit no children in the brewpubs). I have fond memories of several such places.
I remember many years ago I was in a hospital emergeny ward about 20:00 hrs with a badly sprained ankle.
The resident on duty had a baby in a handy shopping card. The baby, Fred, woke up, doctor picks up Fred and consults with him as she manipulates the ankle and they decide I need an x-ray. Seemed a bit unusual but the service was good.
Cart , cart!
blf,
I’m thinking of the kind of place that’s ubiquitous in Spain where you and your wife can order a caña or a tónica, your mother-in-law can order a cortado, and the kids can order a Kas de naranja (“Kas no, Fanta”), all for under 10 euros.
And by “you” I mean “me”.
The idea that a baby would interfere with the “work” that goes on on the Senate floor is laughable. The only work done there are speeches, made for the record and attended by no one, and voting. If a baby crying annoys you so much that you can’t vote, or change your vote, you really need some help. Bills are not crafted there, committees don’t hold hearings there, nothing else goes on there. Does no one watch c-span?
@mamba #10:
“Totally ignored” does not mean the same thing as “understood and exposed for the prejudice and misogyny that it is”.
If mamba has gone from (#1):
to (#10):
then I don’t think they’re moderating their views.
Don’t mind if I do!
I draw the line at circus animals … none of those in the Senate, I say. But Hatch has been there for more than forty years. And nobody ever wants to clean up the mess.
Since it is a rare event, I’d like to agree with Giliell’s comments here. :)
In Australia, the House of Reps has officially approved breast feeding in the chambre.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/breastfeeding-to-be-allowed-in-house-of-representatives/news-story/12612ec13e804c91f8604b99bda9bb71
And in New Zealand, they have a pregnant Prime Minister:
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-42743059/jacinda-ardern-new-zealand-pm-s-unusual-pregnancy-surprise
Sorry, Mamba, I like the way you fearlessly approached this knowing you’d get dumped on, but I have to disagree with you and, as you can see from my links, the world is changing in a sensible direction. :)
Last year an Australian senator breastfed her child while giving a speech in the Senate.
Larissa Waters breastfeeds her child
This did not cause any particular disruption to the senate and it allowed a person to do the job she had been elected for.
Mamba #10
Apparently this only really applies to women. Or as in the case I referenced both can happen at the same time.
With regards to Daycare, a newborn baby needs to be close to her mother if she is being breastfed. It is not generally possible to farm out this job to daycare.
jrkrideau
Fred cart baby
treatment
‘s’all’good
Koshka,
Unfortunately, Larissa Waters is no longer a senator. She got caught up in the dual citizenship saga which distracted our politicians from their valuable takes for nearly six months.
Actually, a person who gave birth 10 days ago should be cared for. That’s why mandatory leave for the one who gave birth isn’t sexist.
What is sexist is that there isn’t a mandatory caregiver leave.
Technology should be able to solve any noice problem. Let the politicians carry around wireless thingies (goddamn, I forget the English word) if they want to hear everything clearly.
And yet you’re not arguing that people shouldn’t be allowed to wear wedding rings on the senate floor… Therefore, it is obvious that you accept that what is or isn’t appropriate varies wildly between different working environments, and thus all of your objections based on the fact that having a baby with you in some other work environment would be inappropriate are clearly non-sequiturs. QED.
Virtual senate floor!
And the controlling AI has an algorithm that gives electric shocks to anyone who use platitudes or are grandstanding or contradicts himself/herself.
Any kids in the real senate floor are free to shout and howl to their hearts’ content.
I read his comment more metaphorically, as the Senate already has 50 “babies” on the floor, the fact they were elected there is irrelevant. So saying “10 babies on the floor” would be an improvement over the current 50
birgerjohansson
To answer your #17, there seems to be one lone Senate restroom changing table, a new installation in the also new women’s restroom, and as for the boy’s club, yes.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/women-in-the-house-get-a-restroom/2011/07/28/gIQAFgdwfI_story.html?utm_term=.189375843b76
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/senate-women-secret-history-113908
Are you calling Republican senators babies? That can’t be: it would be a grave insult to innocent babies.
Of course, babies should be allowed, and of course babies can be disruptive. Have you ever had a baby that just doesn’t want to stop screaming? Hell, browsing twitter keeps millions of people from doing their jobs properly, but you you are Superwomen! You can do babies, teenagers, college and a full time job all at once! What are you guys trying to prove by bullying Mamba. You’re all bending over backwards to explain something that nobody would usually argue about; you must work? you probably better leave your baby with someone, you can’t? then don’t work or keep it short. You have the choice. Doesn’t your baby deserve your full attention? You want to half-ass your parenting AND your job? And is the work on the senate floor so unimportant that a screaming baby is no problem? Why have a senate at all then? Of course exceptions should be allowed, we’re trying to be adults after all, fuck Orin. Of course you should have the choice to bring your baby almost anywhere, but there’s no need for glaring essays from your high horses, about mysogyny, prejudice, patriarchy, genderspecific employment, “you call me a bad parent because I bring my kids to work?” pearls clutching, why, yes, you’re half-assing both things or you are waaay overqualified. This is no discourse this is a mob. Because Orin Hatch is a dick you attack one of yours because she’s showing a little understanding for the opposite argument? Fanatic extremists do that. This site’s regulars are getting more and more rabidly sanctimonious in a sad religious way.
Well.
There’s a cogent argument.
@fffabio
Bullying? That has actual characteristics.
You’re all bending over backwards to explain something that nobody would usually argue about…
Translation: “I don’t like you explaining this!”
Doesn’t your baby deserve your full attention?
Shouldn’t society fully support rearing of the children that will be maintaining it? This also smells of one parent being stuck only raising the children.
You’re completely ignoring everyone that described the work done on the Senate floor relative to the presance if children. I’m certainly not taking you seriously if you can’t or won’t take others seriously.
…there’s no need for glaring essays from your high horses, about mysogyny, prejudice, patriarchy, genderspecific employment, “you call me a bad parent because I bring my kids to work?” pearls clutching,…
I don’t care about your needs.
Mob? *Looks for a large group of people causing damage and taking the law into their own hands* I’d have to put effort into taking you seriously. Discourse indeed.
Attack? Harsh criticism can feel that way but that’s not a reason to avoid it when one considers it necessary.
Fanatic extremists? Why not toss in a comparison to ISIS why you’re heaving hyperbole. You act tough but I don’t see one logical connection to religious behavior beyond your own outraged and empty characterization.
Formatting screwup…
@fffabio
Bullying? That has actual characteristics.
Translation: “I don’t like you explaining this!”
Shouldn’t society fully support rearing of the children that will be maintaining it? This also smells of one parent being stuck only raising the children.
You’re completely ignoring everyone that described the work done on the Senate floor relative to the presance of children. I’m certainly not taking you seriously if you can’t or won’t take others seriously.
I don’t care about your needs.
Mob? *Looks for a large group of people causing damage and taking the law into their own hands* I’d have to put effort into taking you seriously. Discourse indeed.
Attack? Harsh criticism can feel that way but that’s not a reason to avoid it when one considers it necessary.
Fanatic extremists? Why not toss in a comparison to ISIS why you’re heaving hyperbole. You act tough but I don’t see one logical connection to religious behavior beyond your own outraged and empty characterization.
Ladies go the fuck home.
You’re being bad mothers and bad at your job. Leave these things to the men.
Fffabio has set you straight.
By the way, I’m getting the feeling that all the people who yell at us that we cannot take care of our babies (bad mothers) and of our work (bad professionals) have never actually taken care of a baby.
Yes, taking care of a baby is hard work. The really hard thing about it is that they don’t keep a neat schedule and demand that you feed and change them throughout the night.
During the day, they often sleep. Many people have a collection of “baby is napping on some family member’s belly” pictures. According to ffabio, we must be paying attention to them even then. Doesn’t your baby deserve that you watch them all the time?
I must have been a bad mother even when I was staying at home because I did things like take a shower, clean the house, take naps or play with the toddler. It was apparently irresponsible anyway to have a baby and a toddler because how could I pay enough attention to either of them?
In short, ffabio, you’re fuller of shit than an exploded diaper.