It’s a marvel. Look at it. It’s polite, it doesn’t call me any names, it’s an appeal to pragmatism (of a sort), and it’s even got paragraphs. Gosh but it’s nice. Most importantly, he could make a valid argument that this is precisely the strategy the atheist movement is trying to follow!
You are wrong about atheism
You missed the point here. The point is not to worship people like Dawkins and Harris. And to put civility above principle. It’s more pragmatic. White unity is important because whether you admit it or not, it’s white people that have power in America. Congress is mainly filled with older white men.
So that means the most important people in the Atheist community should also be white people. If you want to fight for social justice, it’s white people that will make the difference, not black people or minorities. White atheists leaders will need to convince other white people to put pressure on white politicians. White politicians don’t listen to black people. They’re irrelevant.
So the point is that it makes sense that the atheist community is mainly white people. Bringing in minorities is pointless, as they lack power. So fighting against sjw’s and identity politics is prudent as white people are tired of sjw’s and identity politics. This is a way of bringing more white people to the movement. But remember white people are conservative by nature, so to gain social justice in the best environment will take time, even decades.
Therefore it is important that black people stay polite and don’t ruffle feathers. As right now they are causing too much fuss and slowing down progress. Bringing in more black people to atheism will be bad for blacks. They will only be loud and get in the way. They will alienate white people and white people in power because they call people racist and bigots.
This is why we don’t want Dawkins and Harris to be taken down. They speak to white people in a way black people cannot. They just have to wait and be patient.
Just one question.
Isn’t it true that most Americans are religious and conservative by nature, so atheists should also follow this tactic of not ruffling feathers and avoiding alienating people of faith while we wait patiently for them to give us something?
Otherwise, it’s adorable how he blithely unites atheism and white nationalism. Doesn’t even have to think about it. I wonder how common this kind of thinking is?
So that’s why Sam Harris hates Black Lives Matter.
Also, he only included a link to my previous post, and I have just learned that if I simply have a link on a line by itself, wordpress expands it into the full title and an excerpt.
Whoever that is… they REALLY need to read “Letter from a Birmingham Jail.”
because they ARE the “white moderate” that so frustrated MLK.
What’s he really saying here?
“Whether you admit it or not, it’s men that have power in America. Congress is mainly filled with men.
So that means the most important people in the Feminist community should also be men. If you want to fight for social justice for women, it’s men that will make the difference, not women.”
Or
“Whether you admit it or not, it’s gentiles that have power in America. Congress is mainly filled with gentiles.
So that means the most important people speaking out for the Jewish community should be gentiles. If you want to fight for rights for Jews, it’s gentiles that will make the difference, not Jews.”
I like this one
“Whether you like it or not, it’s non-gamers that have power in America. Congress is mainly filled with non-gamers.
So that means the most important people advocating for gamers should be not be gamers. If you want to fight for ethics in game journalism, it’s non-gamers that will make the difference, not gamers.”
Obvious, innit.
So the problem is actually the solution?
I don’t really get how that works.
Seems like a POE to me.
I was thinking POS.
You know, these common poe accusations when horrible stories are disclosed is just a way to diminish and ignore a problem.
@Doubting Thomas
The point of Poe’s law is you cannot really tell. No matter how assinine something said is, there will always be someone who says it and means it.
:cough: It’s not just black and white, genius. Lots of brown in the middle, and we’ve waited. Been patient. For fucking centuries. I think that’s enough. To quote Opeth:
I’m not waiting, I’m tired of waiting
I’m not waiting, I’m tired of waiting
I’m not waiting, I’m tired of waiting
I’m not waiting
Half true. “More inclusion of white is preferable while Exclusion of non-white is detrimental.
Saying blacks are “irrelevant” is insult. Recognizing that blacks are not listened too from prejudice is actual and needs to be reversed
Re 11
Mannnn would it be nice to edit a post once to correct grammar and tpyos
This is completely wrong!!!
1. White people do not have all the power in America.
2. Very rich people called the 1% have most of the power in America. (Or actually the 0.1%) The oligarchy.
Money and power are interchangeable!!!
Because of historical reasons, they just happen to be mostly white.
Correlation does not prove causation.
3. Does a middle aged white guy in the Rush Belt, unemployed and addicted to opiates and alcohol and about to die young, have power?
Does a liberal white suburbanite in Alabama have power?
Does a white woman in fundie America have power?
Does a white older Boomer scientist on the coast (that is me) have power?
The fact is, the vast majority of whites in the USA have minor amounts of power.
It’s obvious some white males are simply afraid to lose their privileges. Because they are afraid to compete on a level playing field. Afraid they will be treated the way they try to treat women and people of color. Scared, inept, weak, and sad little men.
And that is why they are afraid of SJWs like most on this blog. We scare them, since we see society would be significantly better without a privileged group, and are trying to make that happen.
Raven @13 is correct. PZ has made a mis-statement. While most Americans are religious, it is not true that most are conservative. Polling on specific issues shows that solid majorities of Americans support progressive positions, even if many of those people self-identify as conservatives.
In short, the American people are progressive, but our leadership in Congress etc is conservative, because in our oligarchy they represent the 0.1% donor class, not the people.
Of course, the original letter-writer to PZ was awful, because he assumes change comes from the leadership. Once real change starts to arrive (due to many of us working for it), we can assume that some representatives of the donors will run up and try to claim leadership and say to follow them because they are bringing the change, even though they were fighting against it until just recently. The fact that such people have a hold on power does not mean that change will come from them.
Every successful movement needs all sorts of people, because those with the most power are usually the least motivated to work for change.
This is how it’s always been, this is how it is, we who are already in charge will decide when/if there will be any changes. Wow.
What a clueless asshole. Talk about missing the point.
Exactly. That is the problem.
And that.
They already are. And that’s also a problem.
Actually I am disinclined to try convince the religious majority to abandon their religiosity. Seems like a fool’s errand to me.
We should be focused on separation and the natural rights of self defense, including armed self defense. Sadly most on the left fetishizes disarming and nonviolence.
Mike Smith #18
What is wrong with you?
That whole thing is some world class defective reasoning there. Impressively so.
Mike Smith:
I’m not in favour of those who have purposely allowed their brains to atrophy to run about armed. It’s not safe.
The problem is accurately defined by several commenters, notably Saad @17.
But a little perspective remains in order. Over the last half-century and more, American society has by and large been evolving, not fast enough and not far enough but mostly in the right directions. Right now we are in a reactionary moment, which encourages these assholes in their retrograde stupidity. This will pass. Dont panic. (Carry a towel.) Dont get paralyzed by anger or by fear. Do stand up when you encounter idiocy (I prefer that term to hate), don’t back down, and do your level best not to fight fire with fire; water works better.
There is going to be a huge opportunity when Trump goes down. Let’s make the most of it. Be ready.
You are the fool.
2 million people leave US xianity every year.
It’s dropping 1% a year and on trend to go below 50% by 2047.
White xian America is already below 50%.
US xianity is mostly just self destructing. The atheist movement helps but not all that much.
Our greatest allies are fundie xians (by being vicious and ugly) and the bible (by being a kludgy, evil mess).
It will help the USA but not as much as we once expected. Atheism isn’t a panacea. That is one of the points this thread makes. You can be a horrible person and still be an…atheist.
Okay, wow. There’s a lot to unpack here:
Apparently black people need white people to save them and can’t do anything to combat prejudice against them on their own. Saad @17 pointed this out; white people having all the power is the problem. We don’t have to just accept it as a given, we can change that by fighting to get more black people into positions of power. Also, there’s a limit on how much pressure you can put on a politician before they can’t ignore you anymore. Black people had way less power in the past, but they still managed to push hard enough to change society. Shutting up and staying quiet is the exact opposite of what’s worked for black people before.
As a white guy, I’m also pissed off by this asshat’s claims about white people. First, white people don’t get to be tired of social justice issues. You don’t get to say that you’re “tired” of people calling you out for screwing over everyone else.
Second, white people aren’t naturally conservative. They’ve been taught for generations that they’re the masters of the universe, and that anyone who challenges their privileges is trying to take away what they “deserve”.
Finally, given the kind of behavior I’ve seen in the atheist community in the last few years, black people are entirely right to call out a lot of atheists as racist. I don’t give a shit if white people are alienated from the atheist community if they’re rightly being called out for bigoted behavior. Especially given the attitudes expressed by people like Dawkins and Harris, the idea that white atheists like them will eventually get around to helping black people is laughable.
“SJWs” aren’t just going to wait for Dawkins, Harris, and white politicians to do something to fix what few instances of prejudice they’re even willing to acknowledge the existence of. We’re going to put pressure on them to change their attitudes, and if that doesn’t work, we’ll just throw them out and replace them with women, LGBT people, people of color, and even white men who actually want things to change.
petesh @ # 22: … idiocy (I prefer that term to hate)…
The two sets have a large but incomplete overlap.
… a huge opportunity when Trump goes down.
If Pence remains in position, the opportunity won’t be ours.
I did not become an atheist just to be part of a ‘community’. I became an atheist because of the failure of theists to prove their god/s to me. After fifty years of being an atheist, that just kind of happened. I do not believe in equality for all because im an atheist. I believe in it because ive been subjected to inequality most all my life. I don’t care who is in charge or what color they are. I am interested in who is in charge because of the shit job they are doing and the backwards direction they have been moving in the last twenty years or so.
Its when people stop speaking out that things go from bad to worse. I wish you would or could tell us who this person is so I could message them right back and tell them just how misguided they are.
Ah, it’s the ‘We have always been at war with Eastasia.’ gambit.
I’ve never understood why so many of these white man athiests seem to think that they are on a sports team, and engaged in some epic battle with THEM. I really don’t care if people have religious beliefs as long as those beliefs do not harm others.
The various white man big name atheists have such excreable followings to match their excreable opinions and irrational beliefs. They hate anything that doesn’t glorify them, which is not exactly compatible with no gods, no heros, no dogma.
I have zero interest in unity with such shallow thinking mouth-breathers, or the alt-right fanboys of atheism.
you know today. (just today ,now) I can see this ridiculous irrational argument as a sign that those who think they are entitled to the position power and centrality that they think hold feel threatened by what has been pointed out as the majority.
it is also increasingly clear that the absence of any belief in supernatural beings ruling existence is not some magic key that will bring a new era of enlightenment and prosperity for all.
there is nothing and no person that is going to bring any changes toward improvement only an us together, involvement, self-government requires participation. society culture and life itself is not a spectator sport.
let the cry-babies weep and complain the louder the better indicates success.
uncle frogy
Seems like the commenters argument boils down to “why try to improve society?”
What the fuck is the point of being part of a group if you’re not at least trying to be better than the majority.
So, I’m curious. Is this the latest incarnation of “white man’s burden”?
It seems to me that discussions of “The Atheist Community” is X and should be Y sound a lot like the [bogus] “evolution has a direction” discussions.
I look on it as a cultural evolution phenomenon; traits of atheism are arising in the population; some are popular, some less. Some are loud, some are quiet. Some are fitter, some less.
But as in genetics, it is difficult to observe a single trait in isolation and make predictions about its fitness.
It the trend in the population continues towards atheism, that would indicate that the trait is in general, more fit.
Also, we know that diversity is important. It may be that there is not (and should not be) a “best” atheist, but rather that different types will thrive in different circumstances.
I think that atheistic behaviors should be observed and critiqued, with an eye towards reinforcing desirable behaviors (and of course arguing incessantly about what “desirable” behaviors are), but don’t close your eyes to the importance of the environment that that behavior is in; it may very well be the most fit behavior for that situation.
If white women had more power do people really think the position of people of color would improve?
Seems to me sometimes we should only be trying to get women of color into positions of power.
@33, I’d take that as a starting place, yep.
Casually I’d suggest that worldwide the HUGE majority of atheists are of asian descent. Though by social circumstance they’re less inclined to make much of being athieists.
In point of fact the issue isn’t where the “power” lies now. It’s where it is going to be. Twenty years (and probably less) from now, white won’t be the majority in the US. If as a group we want to be relevant in the future we damned well better be extending “us” beyond us old fat white guys.
Aside from the fact that some of us find it a wee bit ethically embarassing to be conspiring to perpetuate contemporary exclusive hegemonies.
It needs be pointed out now that women NOW control more household income than men do. The days of the ascendant white male are over. If you’ll forgive a bit of atavistic sexism, reality is a bitch.
— TWZ
“Congress is mainly filled with older white men.”
Jeez, don’t remind me – I’m embarrassed enough as it is…
The letter in PZ’s post reads as a gigantic tone troll…
This is an increasingly fashionable mode of thinking. Much of it is an attitude that emerges from feelings of despair or inadequacy and impotence combined with a cheap pragmatism that suggests acceptance as a ‘solution’. Then they elaborate with rationalizations that glues it all neatly down with shit, just like that featured.
In the common vernacular, it is expressed most simply like this: “Get used to it.”
I’ve seen that short refrain (and similar) pop up ever more frequently in political comments sections of articles over the last year or so, with a boost shortly after last November. Lots of people have grown so sick and tired of the stinks that have proliferated that they’re not only giving up trying to fix anything anymore (if they ever tried) but telling themselves they actually like the smell. Then they express their annoyance at anybody else who hasn’t discovered the positive attributes of stench…vis-à-vis: “Get used to it.”
Nonsense. Calling people out on their shit will always ruffle feathers. If it didn’t, there would be no reason to call them out in the first place because they would’ve changed on their own.
I disagreed with much of what the late Dick Gregory espoused, but the analogy he made about public agitation and a washing machine is apt here.
@38
and time becomes a loop
For some reason that letter reminded me of this. At least the Conchords knew they were taking the piss out of themselves.
That was interesting. They started out somewhat racist, but as soon as it got to the point they used without irony the whole thing went off the rails into loud and blatant racism.
charlesanthony #31
“fit” for what?
Shorter LW: “Women and minorities should know, and keep to, their places and not speak up about mistreatment because they might push white men away.”
charlesanthony #31:
Allowing your analogy to discussions of evolution, what do you mean by “fit” and “fitness” in this context?
The ability to “thrive” is not an indication of moral or ethical desirability.
If I find myself in a situation where I need to promote hateful ideas in order to argue about whether gods exist, then frankly, I’d rather not argue about the existence of gods.
@25 Pierce R Butler
If Pence remains in position [when Trump goes down], the opportunity won’t be ours.
That is up to US. Trump may take Pence with him (or, better yet, push him first), but when Trump goes, which I think he will, relatively soon, all the pieces on the jigsaw puzzle are going to be thrown up in the air. Whether the immediate successor is Pence or Ryan, they will be hobbled and lucky to get away like Ford, who left with his personal reputation intact. I would actually give up my dream of Donald the bankrupt jailed for life, if that meant we got our government back. But nothing is certain.
I don’t know why atheism needs white men. Or humanism needs white men for that matter. Both just need people. Yes, people that can get stuff done, but I know lots of non-white and non-male people who can get stuff done a lot better than most white men. Hell, I’m a white man, and I barely register that I’m needed in those places because I suck at getting things done or getting people to listen to me. I’ll have to try harder, though.
@45 I can’t see Trumpty-Dumpty tolerating a potential rival. If he so much as suspected Pence was going to knife him there’ll be a hell of shit fight. Also I think Pence is too much of a sycophantic brown noser to try.
What the fuck are we even supposed to be fight for? To paraphrase Groucho, I don’t want to belong to any movement that would have only people like me as its members.
@47 You’re absolute right. I know someone who grew up down the street and went to High School with Pence. Says he was really nice, totally normal, and not particularly religious. He adopted all that when he saw it would be politically expedient.
I’m not saying that because I think Pence will turn around or is a good guy (quite the opposite). I’m saying this because I think it shows that he does whatever is needed to secure his position. Right now he’s playing a balancing game. He’s hitched to Trump and needs to ride that train until the right moment. If he gets off too soon, Trump takes him down. If he gets off too late, he goes down with Trump. But until he decides to get off, he is 100% Trump’s man, regardless of what that entails or any objections Pence may have. Pence is a remora.
@Raven
That doesn’t respond to what I said at all. All you demonstrated was the religious population has declined. You haven’t demonstrated why it has declined and more to the point that it will continue to decline. I think virtually none of the decline can be attributed to the atheist movement or any form of rational discourse convincing religious believers to leave. It’s properly a by product of the West’s post WWII wealth and technological advances. But given that the Republicans have a death grip on virtually all the state we are going to see an explosion in inequality and deprivation which may increase religion’s appeal. I’m not all all convinced that religion is going to continue to go down.
Any way my main point was rational discourse is pointless. Trump’s election proved that months ago. I don’t see the point to talking the religious out of their God for the same reason why I don’t bother trying to talk Trumpkins out of theirs. It’s completely ineffectual because these fuckers are not reasonable.
@Caine
And I’m disinclined to surrender any means of effective self defense of my very life in a country that nearly half population has demonstrated supremely indifferent to my material well being, a significant minority is completely hostile to my natural and legal rights and a nontrivial extreme would see me dead. When Roy Moore is likely to become a senator there’s no way in hell you will convince me to disarm. If the US goes as dark as history and trends seem to be indicating I’m not going to roll over and allow myself to be rounded up and killed. I much rather put a bullet in my head first.
@chigau
Nothing. I just recognize that some people are fundamentally unreasonable and there’s nothing you can do to reach them. As negotiation is impossible the only way forward is isolation and separation.
@49: Pence is a remora.
Having looked it up, that’s perfect. If only I hadn’t needed to look it up!
The question is, what does a remora do when the shark dies? In real life, it finds another shark and carries on grabbing whatever scraps are overlooked by the big guy. Pence has the chance to grab all the power of the executive branch and become the shark.
Roe vs Wade. Same sex marriage. DADT in the military. Separation of Church and State, all gone. Every wish the Immoral Minority ever thought of, fulfilled.
There is a bigoted group in charge. To solve the problem its suggested we utilise advocates that the bigoted group recognise as their own type and everyone else shut up.
Two main problems.
1 diminished energy and action as the most motivated are excluded from seeking their own empowerment.
2 the so called good representatived get labelled as “x lovers” and promptly ignored.
Paraphrasing:
Welp, fuck this asshat. The profoundly ignorant insipid and repetitive approach to their display of racism was only matched by its repetition. [sic]
A non-sequitur this big should be rejected by the machine they are trying to send it with.
Looks like deadpan satire to me, but I agree there’s no way to tell. I like the contradiction, though: one sentence after complaining about s, who are mostly white, too?
Not mutually exclusive! Pence has been meeting top Republicans and top donors in his residence for weeks now. He’s preparing for the eventuality that he isn’t impeached before or together with Trump and can run for POTUS in 2020 or, if need be, 2024.
Where’s the difference?
One way you die, the other way you die. Where’s the difference?
Trying to convince yourself you’re some kind of Klingon warrior who can “die badly” or “die well” isn’t going to work.
@David
Don’t be fucking dense. A quick relatively painless death is infinitely preferable to the horrors of aversion therapy, forced castration, starvation, forced labor, exposure to extreme elements, dehydration, lobotomy, forced hormone treatment, rape, brutal beatings and torture etc etc. all of which my kind was inflicted with the last time a western power was taken over by fascists.
I have see multiply people on the left describe Trumpianism as fascism or fascistic. I think that is true. I’ve seen very little of people making the next logical step that resistance of any type, violent if need be is warranted.
The more I see the center liberals decry Trump as a fascist without following through the more I’m convinced they are just craven political opportunists who don’t believe a word they say.
moderates are the fucking worse.
Ah, that’s what you mean. When you said “rounded up and killed” I thought of the heaps of corpses right behind the Eastern Front.
Still, in your place, I’d much prefer to run away. Once you’re dead you’re barely even useful as a martyr.
We’ll see what need be once Mueller’s report comes out. (And it will. If Trump does find a way to fire Mueller, Congress will just rehire him as promised months ago.) Let’s see how many options I can imagine…
– Nothing happens; no further action is most likely necessary till the next election (when Trump or Pence would do a reversal of 2016 and promise nothing except not to be Kamala Harris…).
– Congress impeaches and convicts, giving you President Ryan or Pelosi depending on the timing (at least if Ryan isn’t stuck in the swamp and gets impeached & convicted right along, which apparently isn’t out of the question). No further action is necessary till the next election, unless…
– …Nazi militias come out of the woodwork and try to defend Trump’s tenure by violence, and neither police nor military can keep them in check. (Perhaps evangelicals in the military would even try to defend Pence’s tenure by violence. And Trump voters are probably overrepresented in the police in the first place.) Then I guess you have a reason to fight, and I’ll see what international pressure I can mount in your favor.
Keep in mind, though: history repeats itself as a farce.
Completely off-topic linguistic question: do you pronounce the t in breakfast?
…uh, if Ryan is not stuck in the swamp and does not impeached & convicted right along, seeing as it’s quite possible that he is stuck in the swamp via illegal donations that went to the RNC rather than just to Trump.
doesn’t get/b> impeached & convicted; overloaded computer doesn’t let me type in real time
David that one of the most likely outcomes doesn’t even occur to you kind of shows your disconnect from what’s happening.
There’s like 10% chance of Trump and Company “delaying” either the 2018 and/or 2020 elections citing nonsense voter fraud concerns. Fun fact: slightly over half of Republicans would support that. If that happens violent revolution would be completely justified.
Further there’s zero chance of Democrats retaking the house because of gerrymandering. If the election was held tomorrow the Democrats would get about 55% of the vote and a minority of the seats. This is part of why I’m deeply pessimistic about the US not sliding into a state of nature.