The Basque newspaper Berria has an article all about me. I can’t read a bit of it, which makes it interesting: I’m looking over it, wondering what I actually said, and just making up stuff in my head that I’m sure is much cleverer than what’s actually on the page.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
My favourite quote from the Google Translate version of the article is ‘Go, and leherraraz your church’.
Worth a read (in my case via Translate). But I totally agree, it’s very important to not tell anyone: ‘Go, and leherraraz your church’. One should always be careful of promoting leharraraz, especially on a full stomach.
Apparently, leharraraz means to blow up or to explode. Nice to know that you’re not telling anyone to blow up their church.
From the wiki page:
It was created after the closure of the previous Basque language newspaper, Egunkaria, by the Spanish government, after being accused of having ties with ETA
Careful: whoever wrote the article may actually be serious about blowing stuff up
The Basques tended not to blow up churches , that was more a republican Spanish thing. Not to say there weren’t a few tho’.
I need a translation of the translation.
Just for euskera speaking basques…how very…pointlessly isolating…
azhael,
What is pointless isolation to you is preserving language and tradition to someone else.
Hot damn that’s a lot of z’s!
… just making up stuff in my head that I’m sure is much cleverer than what’s actually on the page.
Charlemagne learned 1,237 years ago, also while exiting Iberia, that and how one should never underestimate the cleverness of Basques. Just sayin’…
I’ve been trying Google Translate, but it is taking a LONG time. Apparently, their Basque subsystem doesn’t stay cached on their system, imagine that.
About a hundred years ago, or maybe a bit more, basque herders arrived in my mother’s little town in Wyoming to look after sheep. Their descendants own many of the ranches now. The descendants of folks who called them “Lazy Bascos” work for them.
Sadly, my own translation abilities are restricted to the Ibero-Romance language group, so I am unable to assist.
azhael: Yes, those silly euskera speakers should stop isolating themselves by using their own language. After all, what we all want is a Spain that’s united, great, and free. Right?????
@Paul Durrant #3:
My linguistic understanding, unsurprisingly, varies from language to language. I wasn’t taught all of them at school.
If my current understanding of Basque was overriden by Google Translate, I apologise. I have no wish to blow anything up (although the 12-year-old-me with access to saltpetre, sulphur and carbon might occasionally disagree).
I’m no linguist by any stretch, but the story of the Basques and Euskara is fascinating. If they can hold on to what I think is the oldest language indigineous to the region, predating any other European influence more power to them. IIRC, most Basques speak Spanish or French for commerce as well as one of three dialects of Euskara, so I don’t think the label of isolationist is completely valid.
It’d bad enough we’re trying to use google freaking translate seriously, there’s no need to misinterpret the bullshit we mostly get from that already.
Context is everything.
is quite different than
Guess which one appears in the translation of the article?
I would be grateful if a speaker of Euskara could translate this for us, but I’m not optimistic. There are too few speakers for there being much chance one will appear here and be generous enough to help.
Coffeehound: Of course you’re right. I’ve never understood being so offended by people using their own language in their own home that you feel the need to lash out and demonise that language.
I currently live in Wales, and I’ve long since lost count of the number of times that I’ve heard monolingual English speakers refer to Welsh-language use as “linguistic apartheid.” Why the speakers of the world’s most powerful language feel so threatened by itty bitty Welsh that they lose all sense of proportion is a mystery.
And if we started on Catalan, we’d be here all day.
@8 Beatrice
I’m all for preserving language and the rich variety of cultures in the peninsula, and promoting this diversity in an inclusive and positive way…. but i don’t see how this, specifically, achieves that in any way whatsoever. On the contrary, the message is “this is just for the people who are in the club, fuck you”. At least that’s how i see it, being a close neighbour to these people but not being able to participate of the event in any way because i’m specifically and consciously excluded from it…
TRANSLATION
(eu) “I will not tell anyone: ‘Go, and leherraraz your church’ ‘
(en) I will NOT tell anybody: Go, and leherraraz your church’
I was in the conference in the Basque Country. Great!
azhael,
It’s one freaking newspaper. A language spoken in a small part of a country, by people whose culture and language are being swallowed by the majority needs to find ways to survive. Running a newspaper in that language is a fine way to do that.
You’re all for preserving language and variety as long as it doesn’t… inconvenience you? I can’t even find the right word since not being able to read a single paper is hardly inconveniencing you.
Azhael @ 19:
Oh, climb down from that cross, Azhael. You aren’t being excluded from anything – the onus is on you. You could make an effort to learn the language, could you not? If this is the way you behave to your close neighbours, I wouldn’t want anything to do with you either.
azhael,
And sure, sometimes some events are just for the people in the club. It depends on the club whether I consider that bad or not. Are there also clubs that cater to all people? Is that particular club segregating people who are already segregated and marginalized in their everyday lives? Do you have all the clubs you can wish to visit, but these people can do their particular thing only in this place?
Imagine someone saying what you are saying regarding an event held in US by an Indian tribe – an event where their tribe’s language is preferred to English, customs and culture that you are not particularly familiar with preferred to the settlers’. Which side would you be on in that argument?
Caine,
Sorry if bringing up Indian tribes was inappropriate, it just seems like an example that is usually clean-cut for us Europeans. Sometimes much more than our own biases.
Beatrice @ 24:
No, you’re fine! There’s an ongoing effort at Pine Ridge rez to teach the Lakota language, as like many Indian languages, it’s in danger of dying out, and that would be a fucking shame, to say the least. I don’t think anyone has the right to get all huffy over the use of a potentially dying language. The world would be poorer for the loss.
See also: Roma people.
Ederlezi (Jurjevo, Đurđevdan, St George’s Day) was just a couple of days ago, so I’m sure there were celebrations somewhere in my city, with music in a language I don’t understand, sang by people whose culture I’m not as familiar with as I expect them to be with mine.
azhael: We went to a little village up in North Wales and walked into the local pub. The minute everyone saw us, they all switched to Welsh. True story!
Fine, whatever…Just to be clear, my annoyance has nothing to do with the newspaper, but with the conference this article stems from. People have every right to produce newspapers, organise conferences, in whatever language they like, it’s their time, it’s their effort, it’s their money. The reason i’m annoyed is because you might have noticed that the webpage of the organisation responsible for the conference has an english version, but not a spanish one…and that’s no accident, even though it would have cost them very little and it would have gone a long way in terms of inclusiveness. Euskera has been and continues to be used as a political weapon to further isolate a population. This is a conscious effort to divide us. It has been going on for a long time now. I hate that…i don’t want to be divided…
As for their language and culture being swallowed by a majority….hmmmm…i don’t think you are overly familiar with the history of euskera and its use….because that hasn’t been the case for decades.
Many people think that euskera follows the same pattern as other “dying languages”…but it doesn’t..it has a very different history. This is not a case of a poor, marginalised community being stripped of their culture by a majority….not even remooooooootely…
In my city I see a bunch of newspapers printed in a bunch of weird, squiggly languages.
They really piss me off.
I’m sure they’re doing that to exclude me.
They’re probably making fun of English speakers.
/sarcasm
I’m a native Basque speaker, I’ll just translate the header because I’m not a translator by trade:
«Ez diot inori esango: ‘Zoaz, eta leherraraz ezazu zure eliza’» means «I won’t say anybody: ‘Go and blow up your church’».
It’s a good interview overall.
Rubbish, Azhael. If s language is going to survive, it needs to be used across a range of contexts, *especially* high status ones like academia, conferences, erc.
An event in euskera is not about excluding you or isolating anyone or any group. It’s about using euskera in the same way any normal language is used.
Your attitude reminds me of how the Spanish react to Catalans. The Catalan word for those who want independence is “indepentista,” while the statist press frequently refers to them as “separatistas” (a usage copied by English-language press, sadly). The connotations of the two words are very different.
The myth that Basque indepentistas are all about living in an unsustainable little bubble away from the world is crap. It’s also a myth that dominant language speakers use against lesser-used language speakers all over the world. It’s all about fear and anxiety over people choosing to be visibly (or audibly, anyway) different to the dominant group.
I’ve spent part of most of the last 25 years in Euskadi, so I guess I know more Euskara than most here. Sadly, I can’t pick out much beyond the occasional “and”, “not” and “is”.
Azhael, re your last comment: you’re seriously saying that the Basque people and their language haven’t been persecuted by the Spanish majority????
Wow, what drugs are you on, because if they can make that ugly history look so innocent and rosy, I fucking want some.
And i posted 33 before seeing jontxu’s 31.
Eskerrik asko, jontxu.
*sigh*
Think what you will….but i’ve grown up seeing euskera being consciously and purposefully used to divide me from my neighbours and to isolate a population to further a political plan. This has not been a consequence of something else..it has been the express intention of an entire movement who seeks isolation and exclussion which they will attempt to achieve even if they have to lie and base everything on the most ridiculous reasons you could possibly imagine (basque race my arse). I’ve seen it happen in my lifetime and it’s sad, it’s very sad…it’s hurting a lot people for the benefit of a few.
By the way, you can find and example of conserved diversity and cultural identity in Galicia….but that’s not what’s going on in the Basque Country or Catalunya for that matter…because conserving their culture is not the goal (no need for it, it’s not under threat AT ALL)…it’s a tool for something else.
Jesus Azhael, you’re just repeating brainless, paranoid crap that fachas have been propagating for generations!
Um, it’s also cool to work on preserving a culture before it comes under threat if by under thread you mean “omg, there are 2000 people left speaking this language/dialect and we’re fucked”… because when you start with the preservation once you’re already losing, then things usually just keep getting worse at a marginally slower rate.
azhael, except it isn’t.
The Basque language has been historically subdued in favour of Spanish. This heightened when Franco was in power because he literally banned the usage of the language (even peoples names). There has been a revival in the transition and after it just because the number of native speakers dropped and a revival or reanimation of the language which had been spoken in a greater area was an objective.
There is no basque race, just an ethnicity and we aren’t better than anybody else. We accept people from other places and we are not isolationist, we don’t hate the Spanish language. We just wan’t to speak Basque and other languages too. If we were isolationist I wouldn’t be writing this comment right now.
Is not nationalism, it’s cultural protection.
Jontxu, I think that dominant nations have gone to great lengths to demonise the word “nationalism” when it applies to smaller nations. It’s the principle as when white people go on about how they don’t see race or they don’t see the need for protection of specific ethnic groups. Since they’re not the ones under threat, they have no need for these things.
It has to be a translation of an interview you’d remember giving, yes, PZ? Because it’s obviously an interview, with questions and answers, that’s been translated to Basque. So what interviews have you given lately?
Jontxu, i’m aware that during Franco’s period there was persecution, i alluded to it when i mentioned there hasn’t been for decades. Since then the revival of all the languages present in the peninsula (except bable) has been very successful, and i’m personally thrilled that that’s the case (more than half of my closest friends speak catalonian, a couple speak galician and one is always trying to learn some euskera because he thinks it sounds nice xD). Had any of these languages disappeared, it would have been a loss not just for a localised community or a group of them, but for all of humanity.
I apreciate your sentiment more than you likely suspect, i do, but you can’t possibly tell me that there hasn’t and continues to be a significant movement that is using cultural isolation to further a political goal. Of course, this can’t be generalised to the entire population, and if i mistakenly gave that impression, i sincerily apologise. But that it exists and that it is very influential, cannot be denied…
Euskera is under no threat, which is a bloody good thing, and i support efforts to make sure that that continues to be the case, but it would still be so without people using it for political reasons, which they do…
By the way, i have an issue with refering to being basque as an ethnicity….is being from Zamora an ethnicity? Is it useful to consider such small and insignificantly different populations different ethnicities? And am i the same ethnicity as someone from Cadiz, even though i’m cantabroburgales but we both speak castillian? You can find cultural differences from one village to the next, but that doesn’t make being from one of those villages an ethnicity in any meaningful way. Don’t get me wrongl i’m not saying we shouldn’t recognise the cultural diversity and celebrate it (if we didn’t that’d put that diversity in danger), but i think the mere concept of considering being basque an ethnicity, when we don’t do the same for every community even though each is unique in their own way, is only creating a further divide…as if you and me are in any way significantly different because you are basque and i’m not. We are culturally so close that whenever i’m outside my province people almost always assume i’m basque :P (yeah, people never remember there’s such a place as Burgos xD).
There is an element of “othering” in both sides, which is completely unfounded and it only serves to create a divide that’s not really there. There has been a historical effort by some parties to accentuate that divide and it kills me…because it’s just make belief…and it has been quite successful….
Tribalism is not doing us any good….
azhael,
So how are your studies of Euskara going?
The Basque ethnicity predates the Castillian, I think. There are no racial or genetic differences, that discourse is mainly political, I think that’s an obvious thing which is pretty clear even outside Spain.
I just realised my comment on how i have friends who speak other iberian languages might come off as the black friend trope, however my intent was to showcase the success of the revival efforts which have lead to many young people, some native to the areas where the languages are spoken, some not, speaking those languages. That would have been much, much more unlikely to be the case only a couple decades ago.
But….you see, i don’t understand what you are calling the Basque ethnicity then…the culture that existed in the north before Castilla was even a thing has virtually nothing to do with the modern basque culture, certainly not more so than it does with the cantabrian one, but i don’t think anyone would serously think it’s meaningful to call being cantabrian an ethnicity. The myth that the basque culture has remained isolated since time immemorial while everywhere else in Spain was shifting (homogenuously, apparently) is nothing but a myth…Basques retain cultural aspects, wth a very long history, that are unique to them, and so do people from Cantabria, at a very similar rate….so why is that significant enough to consider it an ethnicity in one case but not in the other?
As for it being mostly a political thing, i have no argument there.
Beatrice…badly, i only know a handful of words. There has been no utility for me to invest resources in learning euskera, so far. I expect the same is the case for Jontxu when it comes to galician.
Why is Basque not an ethnicity? Because that’s not convenient to statist nationalism? Basques have as much or as little right to consider themselves an ethnic group as any other.
The culture that existed centuries ago anywhere in what is now Spain has precious little to do with modern-day Spanish State, but I suspect you wouldn’t like it if all the rest of us insisted you had to stop speaking your language and declare yourself something other than Spanish just because we don’t think you fit our personal definitions of a cohesive ethnic group.
But you feel you have the right to do that to Basques & Catalans.
Again, what azhael says reminds me of how the English treat the Welsh: when a Welsh person succeeds, they’re British, but when they fail, they’re Welsh.
Some people really relish the idea of having a subordinate nation to lord it over.
Some Basque people are French.
Chigau: Yes, they are. It’s also true that some Basque people living in what’s considered France don’t consider themselves French, just like some Basque people don’t accept the label “Spanish.”
No, i don’t, Crys T, not even remotely. I’m certainly not insisting that anybody has to stop speaking any language or stop recognising their identity as a member of a community. The reason why i object to considering being basque an ethnicity is because it gives the erroneous idea that there is a divide between the basques and everybody else, when in fact, the basques, like everybody else, are just one example of many of a diverse and rich culture. Talking about it as an ethnicity singles them out as somehow more different than everybody else is to each other. I object to it because this perpetuates that fictional divide and the mythicism around the basque identity which is not causing anything but trouble and is not necessary to preserve their cultural richness. The rest of the country is just as responsible for perpetuating that mythicism, and i see that as a mistake.
And as for having a subordinate nation to lord over…..holy shit….do you have any idea how much more powerful the Basque Country is than Castilla y Leon…? I don’t want anybody to be subordinate to me or anybody else….i want us to be a cohesive nation, all of us, working for the benefit of all of us and celebrating our diversity rather than resenting it as many do. Instead, what we get is political forces working for their own benefit and power….at the expense of the people, and the fuckers are pretty successful….
Yep, that happens…and why do you think that is?
Azhael, I really don’t understand your problem. PZ simply gave a link to an article that appears on the website of a regional newspaper. The fact that a regional website/newspaper serves the people of the region where it publishes in their own language is only normal, no? It is not about isolating themselves, it is about speaking their own language in their own community to which they have every right. I am sure you can admit to this. The discussion could have ended right there.
Your denial that the Basques are not an ethnicity cannot be serious. They obviously have their own language, history, culture etc. all quite distinct from their neighbours in Spain and France. All the criteria are there for them to be considered an ethnic group, and even a nation. To try to deny and erase that (“to be a cohesive nation”) is really just another example of Spanish/Castillian cultural imperialism.
You seem to be a well meaning person. If someone like you expresses such insensitive and uninformed opinions about the Basque people and their language I can only imagine what they would have to endure from the more fanatical Españoles. Suddenly the various separatist movements seem to have even more of a point.
Oh please, divisions are only bad when they go against statist ideology. Why aren’t you lobbying for full Iberian unity by demanding we all reunite with Portugal? After all, they have more in common linguistically and culturally with Galicia than the Basque Country has with the rest of the Spanish State. Hell, just march in and tell them that their insistence on seeing themselves as separate from is nothing more than petty, childish and divisive. Why the hell not, it makes about as much sense?
Just because you want a cohesive nation, that doesn’t mean that other groups who feel they don’t want to share your vision should be forced to.
Spain is like the abusive husband who treats his wife like shit and then acts all shocked and butthurt when she wants to leave.
Gee whiz, Azhael, maybe it’s because…THEY’RE BASQUE??? And that is as valid an ethnic\national identity as any other?
I think that’s it.
Olav, please note that “separatist” is NOT how these movements refer themselves. It’s kind of telling that English doesn’t really have the word “independentist,” but it should. There’s a huge difference between wanting independence and wanting to separate yourself away from everyone.
And dammit, my reply to Azhael got eaten. but basically: Portugal has more in common linguistically and culturally with Galicia, and indeed the rest of Spain than the Basque Country does. So why don’t you just march over there and tell them their stubborn insistence on separating themselves from the rest of Iberia is silly, childish and divisive? Why not? After all, the Portuguese state is just as much an artificial construct as a Basque one would be.
Go on: tell those fuckers what’s what!
ETA stopped blowing things up several years ago.
And i’m castillian, and that doesn’t stop me from embracing the label “spanish”…so it clearly is something else other than just being from an autonomic community…You can be both basque and spanish, there’s no inherent conflict between the two labels and identities, so why is it that some reject the latter?
Olav, re-reading my previous posts i fully admit that the article PZ posted doesn’t in any way merit my reaction. I apologise for that. It is the product of a lot of frustration and anger towards the climate of separatism that pervades my country and my culture and which has only been getting worse. It represents exactly the opposite of what i hope for and it makes me despair of the future, not just of my nation, but of europe. I want us to be a community not just in name and currency. However, my reaction here was completely misplaced.
As for basques having their own history and culture….so does every other autonomical community and every province (that only leaves language which i personally don’t see as sufficient). I’m not trying to deny or erase it…i embrace it because what makes Spain so interesting is how diverse it is in every respect, but i refuse to pretend that their history and culture are so distinct that it deserves a different status than all the others. That’s a privilege i see no justification for. It feeds into exceptionalism…
Buaaajajajajajaja!! A Castilian embraces Spanishness and thinks that this proves it’s an inclusive label! Gee, do you think your willingness to be Spanish might have something to do with the fact that the Castilians dominate Spain? That maybe you are at ease with two labels because in order to be “Spanish” you give up exactly ZERO amount of your “Castilianness”? That apart from some straight-up cultural appropriation of some aspects of culture (eg flamenco or paella), all the things that symbolise Spain and Spanishness just happen to = Castilian?
God, how is it possible to be so clueless?
Funny you should say that, i’m an advocate of unifying with Portugal as a single nation for the benefit of all of us. We are so incredibly close, we share a history, a culture, i see no purpose or advantage in being separate other than to preserve the privileges and power of a few, plus i think it would be very beneficial for both of us, not that i think this is likely to happen even in the distant future. Granted, i’d like to see something similar happen at a european level, and, one can dream, even one day at a global level….
However, Portugal has a very long history of independence, which the Basque Country does not, so a comparisson between the two is inadequate in that respect.
How convenient! You colonise a nation and deny them the right to independence, then claim they shouldn’t be allowed independence because they don’t have a recent history of independence! Wow, that’s some impressive logic!
And I double-dog dare you to go tell the Portuguese how stupid they are for not wanting to get sucked into Spain. I’d love to see the response they give you.
The late Larry Trask left lots of excellent information on Basque and the Basques here. As far as anyone can tell, Basque is the last surviving indigenous European language that wasn’t wiped out by Indo-European speaking invaders. You’ll hear a lot of essentialist crap about proud, fierce, unconquerable Basques, but a more plausible explanation is that no one saw much reason to try to conquer them. The Romans probably drove them out of Aquitaine, but otherwise for the most part there wasn’t much to attract invaders in the Basque country–the land doesn’t lend itself to much farming, it’s not generally the best route from any point A to point B, and the Basques themselves never set out to conquer anyone. Even when the Basque country was incorporated into the kingdom of Castilla it was pretty much left to its own devices and laws. It wasn’t really till the 19th Century that Spain started interfering with the Basques for various reasons–attempts at centralization, especially after the Napoleonic wars; the Basques role in the Carlist wars; industrialization; not surprisingly, Basque nationalism became a thing in the 19th century.
I can kind of see what azhael is saying–like all nationalisms Basque nationalism can have racist tendencies, and Sabino Arana, who’s generally considered the founder of Basque nationalism, had some pretty odious racist views. There’s plenty to criticize about modern Basque nationalism–not just the violence of ETA (which has mostly ended anyways), but also the corruption of the PNV (quelle surprise–a corrupt political party). But azhael, what seems to be coming across is resentment at their success–the Basques (and Catalans) have managed to reassert themselves in modern Spain and have created spaces in which their language and culture thrive. Yes, of course, you can’t draw a fine line between Basque culture and Spanish culture, any more than you can draw such lines anywhere, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a Basque identity, even ethnicity, distinct from Spanish identity.
What? Are you confussing castillian as in “someone from castilla y Leon or Castilla la Mancha” with “everybody but the basques, the galicians and catalonians”? When i say i’m castillian, i’m just saying i’m from Castilla y Leon…. i’m in no way adopting castillian as an ethnicity (because if such a thing was recognised, i don’t think i qualify…). Andalucia alone has more influence on what’s perceived as spanishness than Castilla y Leon does…and so do the Basque Country and Catalunya since they have been very successful in popularising and promoting their traditions and culture, specially outside Spain (and good for them and for all of us). When foreigners think spanish food, or spanish music, they are very unlikely to be thinking of castillian food, music or traditions…If you were to describe all the things you consider to be “spanish” i doubt much of it would come from my region at all…That’s because even though Castilla y Leon is the largest autonomical community, it’s also the least densely populated and has a history of economic irrelevancy (until very recently we’ve had very little industry, for example, it’s a region dominated by agricultural production) and neglect from the spanish government. When i’m outside of my province people assume i’m basque because it doesn’t occur to them that i could be from Burgos…Basque comes to mind because it’s the closest thing they are aware of (which it is) and in the absence of remembering that Burgos exists and there are people living there, what you have left is basque by aproximation…. So, please, don’t tell me that we are exercising an overwhelming influence over everybody else in our country…
By the way, i also consider myself cantabrian, which is not castillian (it’s far, far closer to basque culture and history than to, say, madridian which i expect you are considering to be castillian)…and still no conflict with accepting the spanish label…What is someone not from what you seem to be calling “castilla” giving away by accepting the label Spanish?
What a Maroon, Obviously: early Basque nationalism undoubtedly had its flaws, but that’s actually a red herring in this conversation, which started because Azhael lost his shit over an event taking place in euskera. Apparently, because unless 100 percent of public life is in Castilian, Castilian speakers are being cruelly oppressed.
It also has zero to do with whether the Basque Country should be given its independence in the 21st Century. Fuck, Spanish -hell, let’s be honest: Castilian – nationalism has often had some odious racist views, but no one’s saying that means we should make them a subject nation.
Also, the fact that there’s a lot of cultural overlap nowadays isn’t surprising, considering that’s what happens when one culture imposes itself on another.
Please, pinpoint the time in history when a Basque nation was colonised and denied independence. The entire north, not just what we call the Basque Country, was made up of loosely organised tribes with volatile delineations (mostly as a consequence of its highly isolating geography). At the time when the northern territories where incorporated in to the Kingdom Of Castilla (which bares no resemblence to the modern Castilla y Leon, just as the modern Basque Country has no resemblence to the conglomerate of populations that occupied the territory back when), there was no such thing as a Basque Country, nation, or identity….Most of it was part of Navarra, which included more than the Basque Country.
There has been no point in history in which anything recognisibly as what is now the Basque territories, have simultaneously existed as an identity and as an independent territory.
Bullshit, Azhael: andaluz culture was co-opted BY CASTILIANS as picturesque and quaint in order in market Spain in the exterior. It’s not like andaluces imposed it on anyone, because apart from the landowners most andaluces were poor as fuck.
The same can be said for all aspects of “Spanish” culture marketed in the exterior. Do you think many people outside of Spain have a fucking clue what “Basque” or “Catalan,” let alone “Andaluz” or “Gallego,” mean? Trust me, they don’t. It’s only in the past few years that the more clued-in kind of recognise that Catalan culture exists, but even then they tend to see it as a largely inconsequential regional variation.
On the whole, the outside world sees Spain as an undefined mass of Spanishness and people are often quite dismissive or even hostile when they learn that there are linguistic or cultural divisions within Spain. And this is 100 percent because castellanos have aggressively marketed castellano as the language of Spain and Spain itself as a single, undifferentiated “nation.”
And within Spain, to say that Castilians don’t dominate is to lie outright. This is so obvious I can’t believe you’re trying to get the guiris to swallow it.
And FFS, you said in your previous comment that being castilian didn’t stop you from embracing the label Spanish, so Basques/Catalans ought to be able to as well. Now you’re claiming you never meant it as a cultural/ethnic label? Make your mind!
Right, so Basques have literally never said that they want independence and had the Spanish State tell them to fuck off because no way? That’s never happened?
I don’t give a flying one of you don’t choose to officially call it colonising. You’ve got your boot on their necks and you’re refusing to take it off.
Also, you are aware that oppressors routinely use the “but these people never existed as a people (so it’s totes ok for us tp shit all over them)” line?
SPAIN didn’t exist at that point in time, either, but we’re all supposed to believe that its existence is unquestionably sensible.
@62 What a Maroon
I don’t resent those regions (Basque Country and Catalunya) their success, i’m very glad that they’ve had it! It’s had very positive repercussions for all of us. But i do resent the independentist movements that exist in both of those regions, because their success has been in a huge way promoted by the disproportionate allocation of resources that they enjoyed during Franco’s period (as part of his plan for economic advancement), and to see such independentists movements coming from such privileged, rich regions, does sting…
Like i said, i’m very frustrated with the independentist movements, and i freely admit that it has an emotional impact on how i experience it all and in how i’m expressing myself…
But then the same must be true for every other region! And yet, it isn’t…not to the same degree…and it’s that invisible, intangible weight that tips the scales in the case of the Basque identity, that i just don’t understand…To me it feels like exceptionalism, and that’s not right…
azhael @ 42
azhael @ 65
Ah, yes. Those people needed some civilizing and then they went and banded together in response to the suppression of their language. How dare they, with a shared language and shared history and shared ancestry going back 7,000 years and shared experience of suppression, choose to create a group identity based on this.
Hey, what’s it called when people identify with one another based on a shared language, history, and ancestry? An ethnic group? Pfft.
I never said they needed some civilising…i don’t consider the conquering arseholes on the Castillian throne to be more civilised than the territories they claimed for themselves. The loose, tribal organisation of the northern populations at the time, including Cantabria and Asturias was not a sign of being less civilised..it was a consequence of being regions dominated by highly isolated valleys in contrast to the very flat plateau further south which allowed the previously mentioned arseholes to easily exert control over the populations inhabiting it and forge their kingdom.
Their history is shared with the rest of us, it’s largely indistinguishable from the history of Cantabria, for example, a territory in which, incidentally, the largely regional and fragmented variations of Basque dialects also used to be spoken. I’m not disputting their identity…i’m asking why it is that their identity is more special than the cantabrian identitity, than the astur identity or the cacerenian identity….
Seriously azhael at 69 sounds EXACTLY like those white Anglo-Saxon Protestants who whine about minority groups veing “hyphenated Americans,” not realising that the fact that WASPS are dominant means their identity isn’t threatened.
In his little fairy tale of how privileged these regions are, he somehow forgot to include not only the violent suppression of languages and other aspects of cultural expression, but also the story of how the dictatorship also moved masses of people from the impoverished, castilian-speaking South into the “privileged” regions, which also worked to weaken regional culture and identity.
I’ve had enough: Spain and castilians like azhael are like the abusive partner who acts all shocked when they’re abandoned. Deal with it: the regions are just not into you. Stop with the horrendous blend of possessiveness, guilt-tripping, hostility and gaslighting and fucking learn to live on your own.
Fuck’s sake, Azhael, who here is trying to deny Cantabrians or Cacererians the right to self-determination? No one. If they decided they wanted independence (or not), I’d support their right.
But that’s not what you’re doing. You’re saying that you feel you have the right to decide how a group YOU DON’T BELONG TO should live. NO. That is not right. If they decide they don’t want to be in your group, sorry, but that’s just tough luck for you.
Crys T, my grandfather was from Burgos, in Castilla but not far from Basque country. I’m descended from people who migrated from Basque country in the 1600s or 1700s. After the civil war my grandfather lived for a few months in Bilbao and really enjoyed the place. Because he was doing military service he moved away and married to my grandmother in Madrid, who was from somewhere else but had migrated to Madrid generations before). If not for that there is a high probability that he would have lived there. They then moved to Valencia where my grandfather’s sister married to a valenciano who still competes in the Fallas. Then they migrated to Brazil. This is the rule with most in the spanish comunity in Brazil (which is very large).
Now my father has been living in Galicia for the past 15 years in the city were Franco was born. I love the place. You mentioned the closeness between Galicia and Portugal. While there are several aspects in common, you know when you are in Portugal or Galicia. Being a Brazilian descended from Spanish and Portuguese (my mother’s side), it is very interesting to see Portugal. Brazil was definitely colonized by Portugal. And Galicia is definitely Spain. For a Brazilian, coming from Galicia to Portugal feels like going home. Once you go inland, Galicia morphs into Leon (or Asturias).
The great anarchist leader Buenaventura Durruti, who became famous in Barcelona was from León and, if I’m not mistaken, his family originally came from the Basque Country. One of the reasons Barcelona was such an anarchist stronghold is that there was much migration from Andalucia which continued after the civil war.
I think that all of the above is the rule in Spain, not the exception. While Spain, as a single entity began to emerge in the late middle ages around Castilla, after the XVI century much of the economic and political power was in the provinces, mostly Basque Country and Catalonia.
What I find amazing is that in spite of all this mixing and several periods of repression, all linguistic diversity still exists. But there is definitely a “Spaniasheness”
By the way, as a fluent speaker of Portuguese, Spanish, French, when I hear someone speaking any of the languages in Spain, it really sounds like Spanish (even to some degree Basque which is so different from anything else). And I’m not talking about the words/spelling/grammar, the “music” of the language.
By the way, a few years ago I went to a restaurant in Segovia and the owner asked my father were he was from, my father said he lived in A Coruña. The guy was really offended. He corrected my father and by calling the city La Coruña (the Spanish version). I don’t know how prevalent this type of attitude is but I don’t know how much worse it is than the common situation of going to Catalonia or Valencia and people refusing to speak Spanish to you.
Jesus fucking Christ, Crys…when the fuck have i ever said i have a right to decide how a group should live?? Me, expressing my discontent with a spanish society that is squabbling for political power rather than striving for a shared future is not me forcing others to do or not do anything. It’s me having an opinion of what others are doing.
I’ve tried to explain to you what i mean when i say i’m castillian, but you ignore it, and that’s not surprising since you know fuck all about my region or its influence, so you have no option but to assume your definition of castillian to make your case.
People are assuming that the basques have their own history and culture as opposed to a monolith of shared history and culture everywhere else, and that’s just not the case. Every fucking region is distinct in history and culture to a very similar degree. I don’t have a history or a culture that is more different from the basques than it is from the cantabrians or the galicians. If one region sees their historic and cultural differences as sufficient to seek independence, then all of them have the same comparable basis. You may be happy to afford independence to anyone that ask for it, and if they get it, it’s not like there’s anything i can do about it, but i’d much prefer to see a country made of citizens that want to work together rather than worry about satisfying the political ambitions of a few.
Also, you might want to consider why it is that sections of the population in these regions are “not that into us”…because there is a shitload of political interest, jingoism and prejudice involved, from all sides…
And finally, you might also want to consider that the Basques or the Catalonians are also not a monolith of people who want independence…It’s not like they are ALL demanding it and the government in Madrid is going “fuck you”…
pjabardo: Yes, but you have to take into account that the differences you see between Galicia &Portugal now are due to a border being place for the past few centuries. Without these manmade, artificial boundaries, there wouldn’t be an abrupt cultural change but a gradual shading of difference. And Galego & Portuguese are still considered by many, if not all, linguists as being the same language.
And also, the Basque Country and Catalunya are not provinces, they are actually stateless countries. Even the most rabidly statist castilian refers to them as “regions.” And though they are economically better-off than many parts of Spain, power in the State is very much centralised in Madrid. Of that weren’t true, both countries would have had their independence for a while now.
Re andaluz migration to Catalunya, the bulk of that happened in the 60s.
The languages probably all do sound “Spanish” due to the fact that castilian language and culture do dominate. Not only because of the dictatorship, but that did help cement it.
And yes, castilians are frequently offended by use of the correct place names in non-castilian regions. It’s part of the whole refusing to face reality trip they have. Also please, it is a myth that Catalans routinely refuse to speak castilian with people? I lived in Catalunya all through the 90s and still consider it my true home and that has NEVER, NOT EVEN ONCE happened to me or to anyone I’ve met. In fact, when I first moved there, I found it hard to get people to speak to me in Catalan because back then it was odd for them to have someone not local using the language.
Crys T:
I mentioned that more to give some historical context than to address any particular point in the conversation. (And I confess to a tendency to drone on subjects that touch on my interests; in this case, it’s the confluence of history, linguistics, and the Basque country that fascinates me. I realize that I can step over the boundary into pedantry or mansplaining when this happens, so I try to restrain myself. In case you’re wondering, my connection with the Basque country is that my wife is from Bilbao.)
I really have no opinion on whether the Basque Country should be independent; as far as I’m concerned, it should be decided in a referendum (though obviously the current Spanish government is never going to agree to that). I do suspect that it would fail, but that’s based on the people I know there, and I admit that it’s nothing like a representative sample.
No, and that wasn’t my point. I’m suspicious of all nationalisms, though I can see how they can be useful for oppressed peoples. And I recognize that Spanish nationalism has done far more damage to Spain than any other kinds.
This is where I agree with azhael. The Basques were not an isolated nation that was conquered and then oppressed by the Spanish state; they’ve been a part of the ethnic continuum of norther Spain for millennia; as is always the case in such situations, they’ve developed a culture with a lot of commonalities with their neighbors, but that is also distinct (and that has its own internal commonalities and distinctions). Modern Basque culture is not something that was imposed on them by outside forces; it arose as a complex interaction between internal and external influences, and is distinctly Basque; to argue otherwise is, frankly, insulting to Basques.
This I agree with 100%, but you also seem to be agreeing that the Basques have maintained their identity.
azhael,
Graffiti I once saw in Cuenca: “Castilla sin Leon ni La Mancha”. The difference between the Basque Country and Catalonia (and other regions to a lesser extent), on on hand, and other regions on the other hand, is that they have developed a distinctly felt identity. If Asturias or Aragon or Burgos or any other region develops such an identity and demands independence, is there any good reason to deny it?
100 years from now, there’s a good chance that many of the countries of Europe will have dissolved into separate regions within a greater European state. I don’t see any reason to regret or fight that.
The languages sound “spanish”, because they are close variations (with the exception of basque). They are not independently formed languages, they all have a shared history, and they are all so close that we can understand each other fairly well when speaking the different dialects. Then, region by region, you have a lot of variation in accents but that is more accentuated for us than i expect it is for an outsider’s perspective, who probably doesn’t see much of them at all. Even whithin the monolythical beast that is “castilla”, there are plenty of regional variations which are quite distinctive.
There are prejudiced arseholes everywhere, but for you, Crys to declare that castillians (your castillians, no doubt) as a whole are frequently offended by the use of regional names, is ludicrous.
Also, your individual experience does not make it a myth. It happens, although i chuck it out to arseholes, who like i’ve said, can be found everywhere. It’s not significant to me that some idiot refuses to speak a language they know and can use just to irritate someone else, because it’s not at all representative. It’s anecdotal and inconsequential.
Also, i said that the region had received a disproportionate allocation of resources and privileges that have been instrumental in their current economic success and ability to stablish themselves as influential subcultures. I didn’t say it was the basques…
Yes, they are not provinces, they are autonomous communities (like Castilla y Leon is, but not your “castilla”, Crys) each containing a number of provinces. They are not countries. Regions, however, are pretty indeterminate…and mostly depend on the context.
Azhael: When you cry about people using their own language in their own country and claim that this “excluding” you, that’s a pretty clear indication you want to tell them how to live. When you ridicule their chosen identity as invalid, that’s also a big clue.
Do I know much about your region? No, you’re right there, but I do know it’s made up of people who use the dominant language and share the dominant culture of the State. And the fact that you whine about this is just like white people crying over how there’s no White History Month. Your region doesn’t have a strong regional identity because IT DOESN’T FUCKING HAVE TO. Nothing that happens in Madrid is ever going to threaten you. In fact, I suspect that any difference between you and Madrid is a lot more about governmental administration than it is about culture. It’s certainly got fuck all to do with language or ethnic identity.
And seriously, why do so many people who really want everyone different to just stop and assimilate already always put it in terms of “working together,” etc? There is ZERO will on the part of castilians to “work together” with the other nations. They want to dominate and for those in the nations to abandon their own identities and cultures and submit to the Borg of la una, grande y libre.
And you are seriously putting it about that Catalans want independence not because they know their own minds and their own interests but because of jingoism, etc? Dude, you’re now like one of those delusional MRAs moaning about how women won’t sleep with them because their feeble minds have been contaminated by feminism’s corrupting power. Face it, your ugly behaviour is why she doesn’t to be with you. That even if things were different, maybe she’s just not into fucking anyone. Deal.
Also re the whole “b-but they’re not a monolith!!!1!”: It’s called democracy, azhael, and the indications are that a clear majority Catalans want independence. Seriously, you need to learn to deal with that, too.
The north of Iberia is a classic dialect continuum; with the exception of Euskara, you can’t draw definite boundaries between one dialect/language and the next. As you go west, Catalan slowly morphs into Aragonese, which morphs into Castilian, which morphs into Cantabrian, which morphs into Asturiano, which morphs into Gallego; you could of course make much finer distinctions if you’re so inclined.
The Reconquista was three-pronged, with one center in Catalonia, one in Cantabria, and one in Galicia, and the three prongs imposed their own dialects on the territories they conquered. This led to the clearcut distinction in the south among Portuguese, Castellano, and Catalan.
Basta de gilipolleces. Es demasiado tarde y ya he perdido desmasiadp tiempo con el lloriqueo facha. Me voy a la piltra.
¡Arriba España!
I agree entirely. I would never argue for denying it to anyone, that doesn’t mean that it fills me with joy that people are pursuing it…because as i’ve said before, i’d really love to see the picture from 100 years into the future that you painted, and i see these efforts towards independence as steps in the opposite direction. It’s more devisiveness, it’s more each for their own…and i see that as not a good thing for any of our futures.
By the way, there are independentist movements in many other regions aswell, probably in all of them, actually…and in some cases even in certain counties ¬¬…but they are much smaller and insignificant. The way i see it, the reason why they are so much more stronger in the cases everybody knows about is due to political interests and influence. Those movements have grown because of specific efforts by political parties. I don’t like political parties and their self-involved interests…
My region does have a strong regional identity, you clueless, smoke fighting arsehole.
azhael,
What is your definition of ethnicity? What traits must an ethnic group have in common to be a valid ethnic group to you?
I already acknowledged and apologised for my misplaced commentaries related to the conference. I’ve freely admited that the it didn’t deserve me pouring into it my frustration for almost entirely unrelated events. I spoke out of frustration and emotion in a context where it wasn’t remotely apropriate.
The frustration comes from seeing things going in what i consider the wrong direction, from politicians lying and manipulating for their own interest, from lived experiences where i see people working towards accentuating the distances between us, which have included using language as a tool.
You…you just want to shout and insult me for speaking the same language as people in the capital…even though i’m closer, culturally, to anyone in the north than i am to the capital, because you like to think i’m somehow one of the powerful, despite the fact that my region is just as much at the mercy of Madrid as the Basque country is, and is far less prioritary.
You have no idea what you are talking about…
Everything i’ve said here speaks directly against the idea that i want them to assimilate into oblivion…i want each and every unique cultural aspect to be preserved and celebrated. Not that there’s any danger that the unique elements of their culture are going to disappeared, they are under no threat. In fact, in recent history there has been a strong effort to revive regional traditions and cultural aspects all over the country and they are all fairly secure. For crying out loud, we have an entire industry built on promoting ALL of our diversity. This is just as true, and as important, for the Basque country as it is for any other autonomous community, province or region.
I don’t, however, want to see further divides…i’m fucking sick of divides and tribalistic bullshit…it’s all over the place and it’s just ugly…
Well fuck, I just lost a long response to cyberspace. I’m sure you’re all as devastated as me. Cliff note’s version:
azhael, if you know the history of the fueros and the autonomy that the Basque Country and Catalonia traditionally had, you’ll understand why they lack your emotional attachment to the idea of Spain. Spain is, quite literally, a marriage of convenience.
Re this:
I really don’t see why there should be an intermediary government called “Spain” (or the UK, or Italy, or Belgium…) between Europe and the regions, unless the people of the regions want it.
@85 Toska
Actually, i’m not necessarily uncomfortable with refering to a basque ethnicity. What i’m uncomfortable with is doing so without doing the exact same for all the other culturally and historically unique regions who have the same basis for the claim. To be honest, i don’t see the point of using the term ethnicity to describe the various cultures in the different spanish territories, which is why i don’t see the point in doing so for the basque case, either.
To me, ethnicity has a connotation of a much more significant contrast between cultures in a larger context and i think small regional variations are more apropriately spoken of using other terminology. I don’t think it’s meaningful or useful to speak of different ethnicities about two people, one from Bristol and the other from Cardiff. That really is the full extent of my objection to the term, i think it creates the fictional idea of a larger divide than is actually the case.
I must be breaking of all sort of rules by now, so i’ll stop…
Come on Crys T, the Spanish version of Godwin’s law? That is too much of a cliché.
I hope you were not calling me a fascist. I didn’t give you my opinion, just some context.
There was a lot of migration from Andalusia in the 1960’s but there was a lot before the civil war. What do you think, a process of industrialization (before the civil war) ando no migration. That would be a first…
Many Galicians love to say how close Galician is to portuguese and some even want to adopt the Portuguese grammar but it is not that simple. While both languages share many constructs very often portuguese is much closer to Spanish than Galician. A few years ago I borrowed a Galician book to a Brazilian friend and he told me that he felt it was easier to read Spanish. Perhaps he was familiar with Spanish. But that is to be expected after 700 years. But go back another 700 years and we were all Romans. And 700 more, who knows what.
As for the province thing, you really didn’t understand what I meant: often it was in the interest of several people, elite for sure to be a part of Spain. This reminds me of Charles V asking for money in his several kingdoms. The noble assemblies usually gave it to him. The only place he didn’t ask was Castilla. The opinion of the peasants? Who knows but they I dont think they liked any of their leaders.
And by the way, when Franco and the real fasists (not the people you like calling fascists) entered Barcelona there were plenty of people who received Franco with flowers and Arriba España!
azhael #88
You are not breaking any rules, so don’t stop on that account.
.
I am loving this discussion because my North American grade-school notion
of European nations as EternalEntities
is being crushed to dust.
I’m not emotionally attached to the idea of Spain. I discussed earlier how i would like to see it disappear into a new iberian nation (or whatever is the apropriate terminology), or into a european one like you described…I really fail to see why that wouldn’t be a wonderful thing and i would abandon the concept of a government called “Spain” without hesitation. But i have no trouble accepting the label “spanish” because well…given the current legal status, it’s correct, and i don’t resent the “country”, i resent politicians and self-interested groups. At the same time, i’m not attached to it in any significant way and certainly not in the “una, grande y libre” way Crys imagines….It’s far more significant to me to identify as cantabroburgales than it is to identify as spanish (except that if i do, nobody has a fucking clue what i’m talking about). Identifying as spanish certainly doesn’t tell you anything about the particular cultural region i’m from and how it makes me differ from other spanyards, but there’s not reason i can identify as both, one a subset of the other, just like i also identify as european.
Oh, they didn’t…they raised in rebolt in the Guerra De los Comuneros.
@90 Chigau
Thanks for letting me know…and, enjoy.
In my @91 that should be “no reason i can’t identify”.
Speaking as an American descended from multiple flavors of Germanic people who at times dissed each others ethnic backgrounds, I also think this discussion is very interesting. I am aware of some of the history and issues with Basque and Catalan. (my Spanish teacher was Catalan) but the nuance or point of it all escapes me. Treating modern populations with disdain and disrespect because once there was no country called Spain is silly.
azhael,
So, I have very little knowledge of Basque language/culture/region/peoples/whathaveyou, so I have little place in this discussion (though, like chigau, I find the thread very interesting and educational to lurk through). However, I am a person who has specialized in studying cultures and languages throughout my education, and I can at least offer that ethnicities are often self identified by the group, and just because someone outside of the group doesn’t see a reason for it existing, it does not invalidate their identities. Usually an ethnic group will form around a language or particular religious tradition, but that isn’t always the case (For example, Cossacks in Russia and Ukraine are considered an ethnicity, and Cossacks strongly identify as such, but they tend to speak Russian and practice Orthodox Christianity all the same). Ethnicities are soft, squishy things, just like culture is. Basque people feel a strong ethnic identification under a shared heritage, language and culture. That is enough under standard definitions of ethnicity, and there is a “point” to the people who identify as ethnically Basque. Outsiders don’t get to determine others’ ethnicities for them. Now I shall return to lurking, but thanks for responding to my question :)
*apologies for any errors or rambly-ness. Cat is in seemingly desperate need for cuddles, and is impairing typing abilities.
Because genetic studies show that there’s no statistically significant genetic differences between Basques and other spanish subgroups, perhaps?
Yeah, I know, ethnicities are artificial social constructs who more often than not have little to do with bloodline, still, mentioning that a given group is biologically identical to its neighbours is always worth it.
***
And some French people refuse the label “European” because they claim that Bruxelles wants to take away their freedom. Defending one’s cultural heritage is one thing (worth doing, most of the time), refusing the label associated to the polity one’s a citizen of is fucking stupid.
***
After being gutted down by decades of antiterrorist campaigns by France and Spain.
The thing is, I remember seeing many interviews of old members of ETA, people who had been part of the organization during Franco’s reign, who had very little consideration toward their successors, openly stating that ETA had been taken over by people whose endgame was turning Basque Country into a tiny dictatorial principality with themselves as its aristocracy and who resented the Basque people for not playing along.
***
We’re working on it
***
Had they had dragons, they could then have conquered the world….
What A Maroon
I like how this sounds. I’ve been a bit skeptical about the future of EU, but this sounds like a way to go.
azhael,
While you claim the movement is political, with politicians moved by greed and agendas mostly unrelated to culture and well-being of Basques… that’s also true for the Spanish government and politicians in charge. Is their goal well-being of all the Spanish and Basque people or again some other agendas?
Could you please say what exactly you are arguing for? Be more specific than some vague “unity”?
(I’m from a country in ex Yugoslavia, so these arguments about (cultural) unity and division are interesting to me for reasons.)
@98 Beatrice
I refered to it, but perhaps it wasn’t clear enough. I think the political interests exist in both “sides”. There are political parties who have a strong interest in getting independence for the Basque Country and Catalunya, because they basically want more power…There are also political parties that want to exploit the tensions that this whole thing generates. It’s in their interest to keep the flames alive and not achieve a resolution.
I’m not a political person…i know little about it to be honest. I’m not versed on forms of government and what models would be optimal for the economic stability and advancement of the entire country. Something like what we currently have with a centralised government but with autonomous competences for each community and province seems to me to be, not ideal, but better than seeing the territory divided into separate states which would exacerbate and solidify the perceive (but to me almost non-existent) divides between us. I don’t know how to be less vague than talking about unity…because that’s basically what i want…a more united community.
The last bomb in my town was 6 years ago…excuse me if i’m not inclined to dismish the atrocities commited by a terrorist group with a casual “early Basque nationalism undoubtedly had its flaws”…
@95 Toska
I see your point and i say again that my only objection is that singling out a specific cultural variant from all the others only serves to manufacture a false sense of division that borders on exceptionalism. This is not helpful in the current climate, not for people who don’t want those imaginary boundaries to grow anyway. I don’t particularly care what terminology is used, as long as it is used consistently. The problem is that it is not…and that to me really is a problem…
Anyway, i think this should be it….i came here and embarrashed myself by pouring my frustration and despair into a perceived microaggression that i have no real reason to think is actually there. It looked, smelled and felt vaguely familiar to other stuff and that triggered a response that wasn’t warranted in any way. Then i got trapped into trying to explain where my frustration was coming from and trying to distance myself from what others had already decided was my motivation. Then there’s Crys and the magical windmills they are fighting…
This is a hairy subject….it has a long and brutal history, there are people invested in fanning the flames and promoting us vs them mentalities and it’s reaching a peak that is causing a lot of tension and a lot of radicalisation on every camp. I fully admit (and i have demonstrated it here) that i’ve grown hypersensitive and easily triggered. I hate all of it…and i know it’s silly but i can’t help but feel “why can’t we all be brothers and sisters?” (which is what we fucking are).
To be clear, I’m not trying to defend ETA–I agree with laurentweppe @ 96. The comment comes from years of frustration from hearing too many people’s first reaction on mentioning the Basques and the Basque Country be about ETA, terrorism, or bombs. Same thing on a smaller scale that happens with Islam and Muslims.
Beatrice @ 97,
It’s the logical direction, and if EU politicians have any long-term vision I believe it’s the direction they’ll move in. Scotland and the UK could be the first test case. If Europe could survive the breakup of the USSR and Czechoslovakia with no major damage*, I don’t see why it can’t happen in Spain, the UK, Belgium, etc.
*Obviously Yugoslavia was a different case, but even there The fact that it didn’t spark a war beyond its borders is a sign of how things have changed in Europe over the last 70 years.
Apologies for the gratuitous capital t. My thumbs were not made for typing.
It stands to reason Google Translate doesn’t do such a good job with Euskara. There probably aren’t that many speakers of the language giving it corrective feedback as with Spanish, for example. Still, it’s good enough to give the gist of the interview, and only four words were not translated: “espezieazio” ;”Ikergazten”, “”supranaturalak”, and the notorious “leherraraz”.
I presume “Ikergazten” means “Professors” (and I further presume that “ikergazte” is the singular) — but I could be wrong. It wouldn’t take much effort for a native speaker to tell GT what these words really mean.
I was interested to note that two Spanish words (poesia and literatura) were included. But that might just be due to the interviewer’s particular vocabulary.
Been living in the northern part of the Basque Country (aka the part in France) and it’s kind of awesome to see such a debate on this very blog. :-)
I’ve just finished the website for a village here and have been working with a professional translator for the Euskara version so I could probably have a very good version (well, in French that is) but it’s the guy’s job so he won’t do it for free obviously… so I guess this isn’t very useful after all. Sorry.
The big problem with the EU isn’t that lack of long-term vision from its leaders, but the fact that too many among its political class subscribe to the arrogant, stupid, contemptuous and contemptible notion that “European Construction is a great project but the Hoi Polloi are a gaggle of inept morons who can’t perceive the genius of the project therefore we’ll move as slowly as possible while denying that our goal is to create a fully integrated continental polity less the bipedal cattle with voting rights sabotage it“
laurentweppe 96
You mean like Serbs and Croats, or Hutus and Tutsi, Germans and French, need I bother to go on? What on earth makes you imagine that this is a remotely significant thing?
The last 60-70 if not more centuries where virtually every culture on Earth kept busy fetichizing bloodlines.
azhael’s original comment was that publishing in Basque was isolating, which is true to some extent. We’ve already seen in these comments that there just aren’t that many people who speak the language. But I thought that was the whole point of this conference, as others pointed out before: for a language to be relevant it has to be used in all areas, so the push to use the Basque language in research is also a tool to keep the language vibrant and useful for everyone who chooses to use it. Yes, people do use their local languages or dialects or accents as ways to keep outsiders from feeling welcome or fully integrated in the community or whatever, but that happens everywhere and with every language and dialect and accent. What they seem to be trying to do here is actually an inclusive thing, since giving a language visibility in the realm of research is also saying that those researchers working in it are interested in exchanging information, even if translation has to be involved.
caseloweraz,
When Google translate fails, try Google.
Ikergazte is the name of the conference. If I’m reading the Basque case table correctly, ikergazten seems to be the locative (Basque has a very complex case system, and also one of the most interesting verb systems around), i.e., “at Ikergazte”. Or it could be the genitive, I guess.
As for “leherraraz”, the closest I could find is “leherrarazi” here, where it’s translated as “blast”. Can’t vouch for the accuracy of that, though.
Wait! Let me get some popcorn…
Not that it has any great relevance to the reality of Basque ethnicity, but laurentweppe’s claim @96 that Basques are genetically indistinguishable from surrounding populations does not appear to be true.
It’s most amusiung to see azhael denying their Castilian cultural hegemonism and Spanish nationalism, so obvious to almost everyone else.
Yes, you are. You have been expressing very definite political opinions and making highly contentious political claims. And are there not also political parties that want to keep Spain as a single state because that enhances their own power?
As an English Scot (English by birth, Scottish by choice, pro-independence), I see interesting parallels and differences with the Spanish/Castilian/Basque/Catalan/etc. case. The UK and Spain are both early-modern imperialist polities, both highly centralised until recently, now somewhat less so, and both containing distinct, localised ethnicities (or “nations”) with a long history and current independence movements. The UK has actually lost a large part of one of these, which is now the Republic of Ireland. Our equivalent of ETA, the IRA (or technically, its political wing, Sinn Fein) now takes part in the government of Northern Ireland, while continuing to campaign for its separation from the UK and incorporation into the Irish Republic. Linguistically, the majority in each of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales have English as their first language, and this seems bound to continue, whatever the political future. Indeed, despite strenuous efforts to promote Irish and Scots Gaelic* and Welsh, all have continued to decline. So has Scots (or Lallans), the language of lowland Scotland, which is closely related to English, but (I can testify from personal experience), unintelligible to a speaker of southern English. Of the three independence movements, the Welsh is most closely linked to language, the Scottish (which currently looks the most likely to succeed) least so.
To its credit the UK government, in stark contrast to that of Spain, did allow a referendum on Scottish independence. They clearly expected an easy win for “No” – most opinion polls had for decades shown large majorities against – but the result was quite close and more important, the campaign set off a political ferment in Scotland that continued in the recent UK general election, where turnout was higher than in the rest of the UK, and the pro-independence SNP – campaigning on an anti-austerity and anti-nuclear-weapons platform – won just over half the vote, while over half the English vote went to either the Tories or the rabidly xenophobic UKIP. So the Spanish government may be congratulating itself on holding out against a referendum in Catalonia, although I doubt this is going to make the independence movement go away. David Cameron shamelessly and successfully used the threat of SNP influence on a minority Labour government to win an absolute UK Tory majority – showing that the Tories think we are “Better Together” (the anti-independence slogan) – as long as the Scots know their place. The result is a greater political gulf between England and Scotland than in living memory, possibly since the Act of Union in 1707. Only if the referendum on EU membership the Tories plan leads to the UK leaving the EU (it probably won’t) while Scotland votes to stay will there be another Scottish referendum soon, but the political gulf makes the longer term survival of the UK very doubtful.
*Irish and Scots Gaelic are apparently mutually intelligible, although often considered separate languages.
Thanks, oblivious. The sketch of Basque was very interesting. A good deal of it went over my head. I have an interest in linguistics, but I’m no Champoleon. Nor am I a Larry Trask, evidently. Too bad he passed away with his Web site unfinished.
By the way — browsing around on Buber’s Basque Pages, I found this: Basques now able to visit the West Fjords district of Iceland without fear of being killed on sight.
Nick Gotts: The UK and Spain are both early-modern imperialist polities, both highly centralised until recently, now somewhat less so, and both containing distinct, localised ethnicities (or “nations”) with a long history and current independence movements.
I wonder if this portends fragmentation of existing nation-states in our future. There are certainly rumbles of discontent here in the USA.
I’m not denying that what you are here calling Castillian cultural hegemony exists. I’m saying it’s not the same as my regional culture. Again, when i say castillian i’m saying i’m from the autonomous community of Castilla y Leon…i don’t mean “every castillian speaking territory”. I probably should have said castellanoleones, but i thought this wouldn’t be useful as people are very unlikely to have any idea what that is…
What makes my region culturally unique (and it is) is no more represented by the castillian cultural hegemony than the culture from Balearic islands is…. The castillian cultural hegemony is in good part the minimum common denominator…it’s representative of all territories up to a point but with a stronger emphasis on central spain (from where i’m not). The concept of the castillian cultural hegemony probably contains more elements from other regions, by apropriation, sure, i’m not disputing that, than it does from mine. Basque culture, catalonian culture, andalucian culture, central spain culture, etc, or the artificial concepts of them, at any rate (since each contains many cultural variations), are brands, they are highly published, successful concepts that attract tourism and put Spain on the map. They are the face of Spain.
I also just wanted to thank the people who called me out (well, you know, except Crys because that was just as prejudicial and fictional as my own mistake). Like i’ve already said, i had an emotional reaction that was inapropriate, incorrect and based on a prejudicial assumption. I understand that and i probably wouldn’t have realised that that was the source of my reaction if someone hadn’t told me off.
Props to you, azhael. Figuring out our own reactions and prejudiced assumptions is hard. So is admitting them.