I do not trust the police at all any more. The news has utterly destroyed their reputation, and it’s damned clear that they have a screwed-up idea of their mission.
Case in point: this is how Indiana police respond to a seat belt infraction. That’s right, a woman forget to fasten her seat belt when she was rushing to the hospital.
Lisa Mahone said she was pulled over Sept. 25 by Hammond police for a seat belt violation as she drove with her boyfriend and their two children to a Chicago hospital, where doctors had said her mother was near death.
She handed over her driver’s license and proof of insurance, and police asked her boyfriend, Jamal Jones, for his ID.
Jones told police he did not have an ID because he had recently gotten a ticket, and he reached into a book bag on the back seat to show them the ticket.
Officers drew their guns on the couple and their 14-year-old son and 7-year-old daughter, and the teen began recording the encounter on a cell phone.
That’s simply insane. Nobody was causing any problems, the guy explained that he didn’t have an idea, and then he refused to get out of the car after the asshole cops drew guns on them. For not wearing a seatbelt. For disagreeing with a police officer. Oh, excuse me, at least three policemen for a seatbelt stop.
At the end of the video, they’ve got the passenger handcuffed and are hauling him away…on what charge? Standing up for his rights while black?
We’re expected to respect people who are doing necessary and dangerous jobs, like policing. It seems to me that three armed men harassing people, destroying private property, and violently beating up others is what I’d expect of a street gang — and I don’t respect the droogs of a street gang.
The family is going to sue. I would hope these incompetent cops would also be fired, and the entire police force sent back for retraining.
What. The. Actual. Fuck.
There are no words.
Time to start recording every arrest and charges by a police officer, every citizen cuffed by the police officer even if later released before booking, and the color of the arrestee/cuffee, and make this information available to a citizen oversight committees who aren’t cop friendly. It shouldn’t take too long to shake out the bigots, the cops who arrest those of color on flimsy excuses. Then fire their asses, and garnishee their paychecks to pay for the cost of the false arrest claims.
What do you mean “they weren’t causing any problems”?
They were black people refusing to bow down and surrender all of their rights to the nearest authority.
To be honest though, why did Jamal Jones even provide any information at all? At least in Canada, the police can only demand license and registration/insurance from the *driver*, not the passengers. Was he also un-seatbelted?
It varies by state whether you’re required to show ID when asked and exactly when cops can ask and what can happen if you refuse, but I don’t think most people realize that. And obviously, even when you’re trying to cooperate with them, it doesn’t stop them from assaulting you.
You put on a badge and a uniform and that makes you ‘other’. It’s inescapable because it’s the point. What seems to have been lost is that that otherness is supposed to be comprised of responsibilities. Instead it has become a licence to indulge every bigotry that the toxic stew of our society feeds us from birth. I wish I could see a way out of this mess, but the rule of law, as noble and positive as it is, and the need for folks who uphold those laws, as necessary as that is, seems to always spiral into abuse. I keep hoping that with seven billion and counting in the world that someone, somewhere will figure this all out before my little daughter has to walk on her own through this minefield of a world.
Does it even need to be pointed out that, if that had been a white family, they’d probably have said “sorry officer we were on our way to the hospital” and been sent on their way with a polite reminder to wear their seat belts in the future? If they were even stopped, that is.
We really need some kind of fundamental reorienting of how policing is done in this country. Because this is just wrong. It’s not serving the public or the police or society or anyone well the way it’s being done.
My solution. unilaterally fire ALL cops and make them reapply for their jobs. Their on the job records as part of their ‘resume’… Plus simply raise the bar through vigorous psychological and intelligence tests…(causality assessment type tests)
That made me physically ill. Three (or more?) bullies with guns and tasers and batons bullying a couple and their kids who are on their way to the hospital. They really ought to be fired. And I hope the city is made to pay up. Maybe then they’ll have some incentive to change the police culture.
clearly the vetting process has to be scrapped and rebuilt from soup to nuts
Jamal Jones seemed to think that he shouldn’t have had to provide them any ID.
But apparently they don’t have freedom in Indiana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes
The police can make you identify yourself, or charge you with a Class C misdemeanour, which sounds pretty minor (at least below the “breaking into your car” threshold, but what do I know?)
Nice state you got there.
I don’t understand… why was he even expected to provide ID? I was in a car that was pulled over by the police once – they suspected the driver of being drunk so they did the breathalyser thing and asked to see his license, and I got to sit in the car without having to provide anything at all. I didn’t even have to smile at the police – they ignored me entirely. So why was the passenger in this case expected to show ID? I know it’s a different country – I live in a country where you’re kind of expected to get out of the car if you’re pulled over, and in America you get guns pointed at you for that… +1 reasons for not taking my holidays in America – but surely the person driving is the only person who needs to be identified in that case?
Even if we accept that all adults in a car or all people in the front seats need to show ID, how the fuck to pulling a gun on someone who’s reaching for some form of identifying information help in that case? The only thing that comes to mind when I think of similar reactions is the stereotypical backstreet mugging narrative – get commanded to give your wallet over, get shot for putting your hand in the pocket where you keep your wallet. How does it make sense to demand someone show you something, then stop them from trying to show you it?
I’ve never really been much into anarchism as an ideology, but the more I see police officers behaving like this, the more I’m starting to think it’s worth considering.
Well, shit. Looks like I live in a “Stop and Identify” state. New York is has real governance problems. It’s always hailed by the right as a bastion of liberal politics, but to me it looks like it’s run by cronies and minor dictators at every level.
This is why I stay on our side of the border.
Yes, we have a few bad cops, but it seems like you guys have WAY more.
I can’t even believe this one. Good fucking grief! This was nothing better than intimidation and assault. And to hear the woman crying like that… fuck!
What’s really going to happen? I bet nothing actually will happen. Even if they sue and win, nothing will change. Will we just get tired and desensitized by this and accept it as an unavoidable fact of life in this country? I can’t help but imagine myself in that car seat. What can any of us really do if we were in that position? My heart breaks for poor Mr. Jones. An innocent human being tried, found guilty, and punished all within a minute in front of his family.
Ibis3:
Those cops won’t have to pay up, though. And where will that money come from? Maybe the local police will need to extort more in traffic fines, or seizure of property in drug raids.
A long time ago most cops got their jobs politically – there were part of the areas they worked, they knew the people. As policework has ‘modernized’ into a semi-military force it has attracted right-wing authoritarians who think everyone not part of their tribe is ‘the enemy’ and they want the power to keep ‘the enemy’ in their place. And if they get to beat the shit out of ‘the enemy’ for their personal subjective version of ‘disturbing the peace’ or ‘resisting an officer’ why, that’s just frosting on the cake.
I was stopped by a very friendly & understanding cop yesterday (no sarcasm) because my emissions test was overdue so I was given a warning. But I do find those cops are getting harder to find.
yes police have gone rabid, but…. they did have “cause” for this one little bit:
Whenever one is stopped in one’s vehicle by the police, for even the most bogus reason, keep hands in sight, always. even reaching into the glove box to retrieve your registration paper can be suspicious. Digging into a book bag is even moreso. But that is just the general case, the specifics of this one make the cops look even more feral. Why point guns at children? Why handcuff the passenger? For not having an ID?
more questions:
firstPolice will STOP you for seatbelt infractions!?! I always thought that they would only throw it on top of your other charge, like speeding, not stopping for stopsign, etc. And use it as a way to “negotiate”. EG: I was once stopped for speeding. While preparing for the officer, I unfastened my seatbelt to get to my wallet for my License. Gave the docs to the man, who said I was a little over the limit. He went back to his car to fill out the violation docs, came back, offering me a choice of “Speeding Ticket” or “Seatbelt Violation”. I told him I was wearing it, all along, and he said I wasn’t when he got to the car. I tried to explain I had just taken it off to get the license, but he interrupted, “Seatbelt Vio is much cheaper and no court time necessary for you out-of-stater to come back for.” Took the seatbelt vio as supreme irony since I am a hyperadvocate of seatbelt use. Even to simply reposition my car in a parking lot, I’ll fasten up. Still, WHEN DID COPS GET THE ABILITY TO SEE SEATBELT DISUSE IN MOVING VEHICLES???
second point: I’ve heard that NYC cops are hyper offended by video coverage of their arrest procedures, and have charged such videoers with privacy violations, etc. As ridiculous as that is, surprised that all police don’t behave similarly.
third question: What did he mean “he did not have an ID because he had recently gotten a ticket”
Do cops take your ID when you get a ticket? How is that possible? I presumed that only judges take away licenses or just punch an X through them to show they are invalidated for misusing one’s driving privileges. That’s what made me suspicious of him reaching into a bag to get the ticket. Being black he could be reaching for a gun donchanoe. /sarcasm
The charge is “failure to aid an officer” and “resisting arrest.”
The first shouldn’t actually be a crime, and the second should only be prosecutable when coupled with an accompanying charge.
I just read a news report that one of those cops has been sued twice before for using excessive force and the city settled both times. Still he’s allowed to interact with the public. He ought to have been gone long ago. Also, that the Hammond PD is currently defending the actions of their officers in *this* case. Crazy.
I too stay on this side of the border.
ashleybell wrote:
I’m sure you’ll be pleased to know that intelligence tests are already required for some police departments. They’re weeding out those who score as too intelligent.
http://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2014/ic/titles/034/articles/028/#document-chapter-5
Although the actual ordinance in Indiana says that the police have to have “stopped the person for an infraction or ordinance violation”. I guess that includes passengers that were peripherally stopped for the driver’s infraction or violation?
Egotistical racist cops + invasive laws = this sort of crap.
Here’s an Officer Friendly who chose to point Jesus instead of a gun:
Lawsuit: State trooper preached about Jesus during traffic stop
Can’t help wondering how that armed cop deals with those who commit the offence of Driving While Muslim.
Frugaltoque’s link to wikipedia points to Indiana Code section IC 34-28-5.3.5 in http://iga.in.gov/legislative/laws/2014/ic/titles/034/articles/028/#document-chapter-5 (page 4) which says the person stopped for an infraction or ordinance violation has to provide either his driver’s license or the name, address, and date of birth.
Maybe the violation is some kind of conspiracy to not wear a seatbelt while black?
Hey, did they taser him to get him out of the car?
“Still he’s allowed to interact with the public.” Classy, Hammond PD.
.
(Going off on a tangent, yesterday I finished reading Richard Kadrey’s urban fantasy “The Getaway God”. There is an incident where the protagonist gets into a similar situation with vigilante cops eager to put the boot in. This is when one of the Elder Gods chasing him catches up and the loose-cannon officers promptly become collateral damage. Schadenfreude rules.)
@twasbrilig: St. Louis, MO routinely takes licenses with a traffic ticket until court.
And if you have a large amount of cash they can take that too.
John Oliver
You mean you just now realized the cops can’t be trusted? It seems like every few days on Raw Story there’s a report about a cop somewhere in this country doing something just as bad, if not worse, than this or getting approval of doing something horrible. For instance in Georgia a cop threw a grenade into a crib nearly killing a baby during a no-knock raid (which pretty much turned up empty) and the grand jury refused to indite.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/no-charges-for-georgia-officers-who-maimed-toddler-during-no-knock-drug-raid/
Interesting, I kinda agree with that policy, but it does go TOO far. I can accept that for particular offenses, such as DUI, but going 5 mph over the limit (?), not so much. davex, thanks for that info, I’ll avoid MO the next time I drive across the country ;-(
@18:
That was the excuse. The real offense was DWB.
The Redhead was involved in a fender bender near our house, and since she was at fault, they took her DL until she produced a $75 bond. Later we found our Auto Club membership card could have been used instead of the DL.
If I were stopped for a seat belt infraction with my wife in the passenger seat, or my wife were stopped and I was in the passenger seat, with our kids in the back seat, I can almost guarantee that the passenger would not be asked to show ID. They would take the driver’s license and registration, write the ticket, and hand it all back. They asked for his ID because he was a young black man and that made him an automatic suspect.
Should he have reached into a backpack without explaining exactly what and why he was doing it and getting their approval? There’s no legal reason for him not to, but it was unwise. But is he responsible for knowing that his attempt to comply with their demand for his ID would lead to drawn weapons in front of his children because cops apparently live in terror that a parent with his toddler in the back seat is going to pull out an Uzi and mow down three cops in body armor?
Should he have gotten out of the car when they asked him to? Yes, absolutely. But who’s to say that these hair trigger cops wouldn’t have dislike the way he did that and tased him and smacked him with their batons anyway? Frankly, I’ll bet that had he started to get out of the car, one of them would, at the very least, have grabbed him and thrown him forcefully to the ground, pinned him down, and cuffed him. At the very least.
Should the cops have smashed the window and hit him with their baton, then tased him, dragged him out of the car and cuffed him in front of his kids for trying to comply with them until he found himself in (entirely reasonable given recent events) terror for his life? No. There was no threat in that moment, the cops should have looked over the ticket, figured out that he had no license, run the adults and the car through whatever computer they have to check for warrants or whatever, and let them go. But no, cops cannot allow anyone to refuse to acknowledge their absolute authority. They’re terrified of that above all. So they made no effort to de-escalate, or make due with the circumstances, or understand the impact of three guns pointed at a parent in front of their toddler on their psychology.
Police policies have to change. We have to accept that cops face risks and work to minimize them in a way that doesn’t terrorize citizens. That means accepting some risks in order to reduce harm to civilians. It means recognizing that smashing windows and tasing people who are sitting with their hands in plain sight and have complied with instructions to identify themselves (however arbitrary and unnecessary those instructions), may, in fact, increase overall risks for everyone. And it would mean doing real risk benefit analysis based on facts, not on episodes of the Wire.
But that’s not going to happen. And you know what else isn’t going to happen? Any compensation for this family or punishment for these officers. Because as far as anyone in a supervisory position over them is concerned, they did nothing wrong. When it comes to a face to face encounter with a cop in this country, you have no rights. None whatsoever. Especially if you’re black.
I want to believe that this kind of policeman is a minority among the north-american police force.
Of course, being “only” a minority is no escuse to not punish the men that abuse their autorithy.
What the police force should do, is to work on a better training of the policemen.
On a personal note: When my parents visited the USA, they found the policemen very polite and helpful, so it is better people not think that all policemen are bullies, because of the awful and criminal behavior of some policemen.
Last week while driving with my 13 y.o. daughter at night, I got pulled over for something trivial. As the officer approached the car, it dawned on me I had a problem, because I’ve got an electrical failure and the driver’s side window won’t roll down. When she (the cop) got to where I’d normally roll the window down, I knocked on the window and gestured while announcing loudly “The window is broken, I have to open the door to hand you my license” She nodded, and I opened the door ever-so-slightly and slowly, and squeezed my license through the crack. She seemed comfortable, so I opened the door about a foot, and handed her my insurance. When she walked back to her squad car to run my license, I turned to my daughter and in my best Louis CK voice said “Thank God I’m white”. I got off with a warning, of course, and we spent the rest of the drive home discussing what might have been had we been black. A great teaching moment perhaps, but a very very sad commentary about the police state our society has become for so many.
I’m trying to think of an effective way to protest police violence and overreach. From the murder of young black men, to cases like this, to the tasing of old white women for failure to obey (because police violence and abuse of power are often motivated by racism, but sometimes just from terror at anyone at all not accepting their authority), to no-knock raids that leave babies in the hospital, to the apparent routine use of tasers to torture people into compliance, to the response to protesters whether at occupy protests on college campuses or protests against police violence in victimized neighborhoods, to anything else you can shake a stick at. And I feel like we need huge changes, and some policies we should enact seem obvious to me, and some of these things seem like such clear constitutional violations on a policy level (tasers = cruel and unusual punishment without trial, a double whammy constitutionally), that I’m amazed they haven’t been tackled that way in court.
So it seems the courts won’t help. Me writing angry internet comments won’t help. Letters won’t help. Protests in Ferguson won’t help (there may end up being a plastered over partial fix in Ferguson, but overall, the systemic problems will remain). So what will? Nationwide protests? Maybe, but it won’t happen. It won’t happen because most of us rich, white folk are too damn complacent. I know I am. But the protests won’t work until there are simultaneous protests in every city, with white people standing shoulder to shoulder with black people, instead of pretending it’s not our problem. But we’re too complacent. Another protest idea would simply be that no one complies with police any more. This is pretty hard core, and dangerous, but no more so than the civil rights marches and sit ins of the sixties. Much less so, actually. And it might lead to a conversation. Here’s how it would work you stop when an officer asks you to. You pull over when asked. Otherwise, you do nothing. You keep your hands in plain sight. You can even put them where you’re asked. But nothing else. You don’t move if they ask you to move. You don’t get out of the car. You don’t threaten, yell, or fight, you stay calm. Complete passive resistance. So now a lot of people get tased, windows smashed, the occasional beating. But if a lot of people doing it are white, at least we won’t get murdered. Then the jails get clogged full, the courts are overwhelmed with cases, and the whole system grinds to a halt until we get some action…
But who am I kidding. Let’s face it, my life is too good, I’m not going to put myself through that, and I certainly can’t ask others to, and they wouldn’t anyway, given that most are more complacent than I am. So what do we do? How do we stop this? Because it’s damned sure illegal and it’s damned sure wrong.
in general:
The problem is, there aren’t strict separate classes of “good cops” who are polite to everyone they stop and “bad cops” who are jerks or violent towards everyone they stop. Mostly they are *the same cops* behaving differently depending on their goals and the power disparity, like any other predators or bullies – they know not to piss off targets who might have enough social standing to cause their bullying to have consequences.
Holy Fuck!
I meant to drop this link in my comment above: http://rt.com/usa/181100-baby-swat-grenade-medical/
@twasbrilig: It was a few years back when they took mine (for a left on a red arrow, after waiting for minutes), but they allow you to use the ticket in lieu of a license. It made it hard to get into a bar since you don’t have a picture ID, but you could still drive using the ticket as proof of a license.
They would probably treat you worse though.
It’s getting to the point where the police could be the largest criminal in America. The only thing stopping that declaration is that it isn’t treated like a crime when the police shoot unarmed civilians or take their belongings—I guess running drugs is the only place where it’s a crime when the police do it?
I’m a late middle-aged white guy, a few years ago I was stopped while biking home from a local grocery store. I was cooperative, answered question, and reached for my wallet to show my ID. The policemen jumped and grabbed his gun (Fargo, ND). The difference is that I preceded home afterwards while in the video there was an arrest. (I was stopped because someone had made a prank call about shoplifting).
If a passenger reached into the back seat to ‘get something’ without the officers’ permission to do so- guns will make their appearance as the officer is now afraid for his life, i.e. he does not know what is being reached for. The problem here is a better policeman who should simply have facilitated their trip to the hospital.
Reaching for you wallet when asked to provide ID should not be a scary thing. You’re literally doing as you’re told. What else should the guy do:
Cop: Show me some ID
Black guy: Okay. I have to reach into my pocket to obey that instruction.
Cop: You may reach into your pocket.
Black guy: Okay. I am now reaching into my pocket
???
Really? What is this, Cool Hand Luke?
At least I can understand why he was reticent to exit the vehicle. God only knows how scared they would have been if he’d done that “too quickly”.
As perfectly described by Jello Biarfa (with the capable assistance of DOA), from the album “Last Scream of the Missing Neighbours”, way back in the halcyon days of 1989: I wish I was in El Salvador (lyrics). (Or on YouTube.)
Consider the plain fact that the vast majority of police are not like this. I only remind because it isn’t clear that anyone commenting even cares about that triviality. The way police are spoken of generally, and especially in the aftermath of this type of situation, would be viewed as appalling if referring to a racial group. I know, police are not a race, but painting all police as violent thugs in order to vent out your frustrations and anger is shortsighted and, frankly, pathetic.
In the city where I live, the RCMP have what’s called “Community Policing.” They have constables that are in much smaller police stations for each neighbourhood, which allows the community cops to get to know the locals and vice versa. What ends up happening is that these officers become leaders and protectors of their community, which I’ve always felt was kind of the fucking point of policing.
Unfortunately this model isn’t implemented everywhere in Canada, and I suppose there are places that it just wouldn’t work.
Please note that finding this shocking is an artifact of white privilege, or ‘non-Black-USan’ privilege if you will. Black USans, and Black citizens in many other countries, do not have that privilege.
Another incident has been documented. NYPD officers beat an unarmed teenager with both their guns and fists … after the teen had surrendered.
Daily Kos link.
Video shows the 16-year-old being beaten and smashed in the face with a loaded gun. The teen was non-violent, fully compliant.
More on the story referenced in comment #47:
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20141007/bed-stuy/video-nypd-officer-hits-teen-face-with-his-gun
gussnarp @42:
And cops need to recognize that their occupation isn’t even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs!
That was gussnarp @32, not 42.
A police officer in Indiana included a bunch of religious questions in his interrogation of a motorist he stopped for a traffic violation. Daily Kos link.
Fernando @33
It’s not exhaustive, but I’ve been doing
an ongoing roundup of police brutality cases, and they are seemingly never-ending, and occur on almost a daily basis. This is a pervasive problem. I won’t go so far as to say these brutal cops represent a majority of police officers in the country without further proof, but there is definitely a HUGE problem in the US.
“Consider the plain fact that the vast majority of police are not like this.”
Evidence please! I’m going to counter by reminding you how major precincts like NYC employed racial profiling despite the evidence that it never worked. I’ll also point out the “plain fact” of how many cops who do beat/kill people are given paid vacations and not fired even after they are found at fault. You also have the “plain fact” at how cops have been covering up their abuses and how many are against wearing small video cameras on their uniforms so we can see what they’re doing and how the cops in Illinois were against people filming them (and how upset they were when the courts ruled that filming cops was legal).
Do you also defend the RCC like this because it’s pretty much the same thing? People with authority abusing it while their superiors cover it up. Being a cop is a choice so your comparisons to racism are invalid.
Tim Riches @ 44
#NotAllPolice
A voluntary group of people in the USA with disproportionate societal power and the ability to literally get away with murder has a history of harassment, abuse, and–yep!–murder of minorities, particularly Black people. That there are some cops who are not like that is swell, but knowing that some cops aren’t like that is not a comfort to people who fear for their lives and freedom. The cops who aren’t like that getting out there and loud and doing their damnedest to reform the system and see justice carried out? That would actually make a difference.
No, what is pathetic is that the behavior of this policeman is actionable, and he should be dismissed from the force. But nobody is seeing that this happens. Pathetic only begins to describe the inability of the police to police themselves, and the way they fight any meaningful civilian oversight to curb their excesses.
Tim Riches @44:
Your comment really isn’t helpful. It’s dismissive. Police brutality is a very real thing in the United States, and it disproportionately impacts People of Color, who have no way of knowing if a routine traffic stop will lead to them being tasered, or worse, shot and killed. As I found out when I started looking for stories of police brutality, there are plenty of them and they aren’t hard to find. This problem is pervasive in society, and whether or not we’re talking about #notallcops is besides the point.
@38 Gussnarp:
Yeah, that would be this un-crime, right?
“Comply or die is not the law.”
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58487645-78/police-hunt-lake-salt.html.csp
Excerpt below:
No, sorry, that won’t work.
As a (former) member of the military, I can tell you from direct experience that this sort of behavior is cultural and comes from the top.
No amount of “training” will fix the line troops, er, officers. The way to fix it is to root it out from the top, then put in place incentives to prevent that sort of culture from reforming.
At least the Captains/Commanders and above. Then, for prevention, directly tie the evaluations of those folks to the number of complaints, lawsuits and reports of police brutality that occur. THEY WILL ensure those things don’t happen. If they try to cover it up, they can lose (yay cell-phone cameras) and face criminal charges for their troubles.
Tim Riches, #44,
It’s an enabling thing. If the majority of the police truly cared for justice and serving the community that they’re employed by, this would have been solved long ago. When they see their co-workers carry out these appalling wrongdoings, why don’t they speak up? Why aren’t these majority of police officers protesting against these blatant atrocities?
Like all organizations, problems within come from the top, either because specific behaviours and values have been expressly sanctioned, or because the leaders turn a blind eye which is implicit sanctioning. And it’s absolutely right, that the officers who do wrong should be punished visibly, swiftly and justly by the leadership.
The RCMP has had some tarnishing in the last while. A tragically memorable incident was the tasering death of Robert Dziekański at Vancouver International Airport. The Province of B.C. launched the Braidwood Inquiry, which was a commission that examined the incident and the conduct of the officers in detail. This led to the first public apology offered by the RCMP.
You silly old dreamer, you!
following up TMM #54:
Not to mention what happens TO the cops who aren’t like that if they ever do speak up against the brutality and corruption of their fellows.
Cracked on Ferguson:
from rq in the Good Morning America thread,
Look up Serpico and the others. Cops who whistleblow on other cops can end up having no backup when they call for help, being ignored when they call for medical aid, and even getting shot by fellow officers who “mistakenly” forgot where the whistleblower was positioned or “mistook” them for a bad guy.
Tim Riches:
It really sounds like you’re living in a bubble of privilege, oblivious to how the lives of many Americans are affected by police brutality. You’re probably not aware of this, but black parents find it necessary to talk to their sons about interacting with the police.
In the wake of Michael Brown’s death, the police in Ferguson, MO engaged in a series of-ongoing-constitutional violations of citizens’ rights. Don’t believe, me? Read the Good Morning America thread here at Pharyngula, which as been documenting the shitstorm at Ferguson, MO, as well as examples of police brutality across the country for a while now. There are, IIRC, 4 pages worth of material, and it gets updated with multiple stories and Tweets almost every day. This thread should be essential reading for anyone who doesn’t understand (or denies) the pervasiveness of the problem of police brutality.
As for me, I wasn’t aware of how bad the problem was until I began paying attention to the events in Ferguson, Missouri. Once I did that, I began seeing how bad this shit was. Learning about the police state in the US-and yes, we live in a police state-opened my eyes once again to the pain and suffering of people around me. Instead of saying “It doesn’t happen that much”, or “It hasn’t happened to me, so it can’t be that big a deal”, I threw away the rose colored glasses coloring my view of the world and began to see how bad things are.
Yes, I had to do the same thing I did when I realized that sexism and misogyny were a huge problem in society. I had to confront the fact that this shit is everywhere and there is simply not enough being done about-at least not from the people with sufficient power. WHITE people need to speak up about this. WHITE people are the ones with all the social, political, economic, and religious power in this country. WHITE people are the ones the system is built to benefit. WHITE people are the ones who can tear down this institution. WHITE people are the ones who can more easily reach other WHITE people and get them to see the problem. There are some WHITE people who have realized they were blind to the racial inequalities in the country. One of them is
She was instrumental in organizing the Requiem for Michael Brown, a protest during the intermission of the St. Louis Symphony.
Please realize that comments like yours are not only NOT helpful, they are dismissive of the problem.
Seconding Saad @60.
Was it here I saw the video of a man (a cookie if you can guess his skin color) who was shot when trying to reach for his license AFTER THE FUCKING COP ASKED HIM TO GET IT? Thankfully the cop was as crappy at shooting as he was at policing. I believe the guy only suffered a flesh wound on his thigh.
This is some disgusting shit. Trigger warning:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/24/ex-trooper-who-shot-unarmed-man-faces-charges/16178961/
Tim Riches @ 44
You’re right. The vast majority of police would probably not do this shit. They just help circle the wagons and defend their colleagues when they know this shit is happening. And then they probably sit around and have a good chuckle over the fact that they can always count on apologists like Tim Riches to make excuses for them whenever anyone tries to speak up.
@Alexander (#40): Yes, that’s the one. Though I was hardly surprised they will not face charges. They followed procedure and policy. Frankly, I think the cops in the video above followed their policies, too. Therein lies the problem. There are bad cops who are just bad and will use policies as an excuse. There are also cops who basically want to do the right thing, but the policies themselves are fucked. This is why it’s not just a few bad apples. The cops who severely injured a baby with a stun grenade should face charges, because the law has established that following orders is not an excuse. But the system of no-knock raids, the judges who approve such warrants on unsubstantiated testimony, the policy that you should throw a flash bang in, knock down the door with a battering ram, and storm in in full body armor, assault rifles shouldered, faces obscured by gas masks, and dressed all in black if drugs are involved because Heisenberg might be in there with an AK is what is most guilty in that case. Some isolated cases are a few bad cops. But these two are not a few bad cops. It’s systemic and it’s rotten to the core.
@44 Tim Riches–
Two counterpoints.
First, the treatment of whistleblowers like Adrian Schoolcraft
suggests that the brutality of police is just one symptom of a deeper issue.
Second, do you truly believe that these officer’s supervisor(s), the department training regimen, the commissioner(s), Internal Affairs, and all the other officers in the department have no duty to stop this malfeasance? After all, isn’t the job of police to doing the same thing among the general public?
Tony!#52
They unquestionably represent the entirety of policing in the U.S., not just the majority. They may or may not comprise the majority of U.S. police forces (although I think that they do), but until other cops stop defending them and start fucking doing something about it, they represent all police everywhere in the country. Applicable here as so many places: the standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Tom Riches#44
That goes for you too, you authoritarian bootlicker. If you don’t support this bullshit, stop making excuses for it.
Dalillama @70:
Yeah, you’re right. These fuckers are the face of law enforcement today. I’d love to see those supposed good cops pushing back against this shit, but as others have said, I think significant change is going to have to come from the top down.
@Tim Riches
What is the probability that you’re a cop? We wonders. Aye, we wonders.
But anyway, fuck you. I work in law enforcement, and have the same training you do (assuming you’re a cop), so you and I both know full well that we are trained to behave exactly like this. We’re trained that nothing matters but “getting home after your shift,” and that the way to do that is to establish and maintain control at all costs. We’re taught to escalate our way up the force continuum, always taking it one step higher than the subject. We even train in simulators, where we encounter virtual people who inevitably try to kill us (the instructors have a button they can push to decide whether the subject complies, or escalates to deadly violence). After the simulation, we’re critiqued on our performance, and we’re generally yelled at for failing to shoot quick enough, or failing to bark orders whenever they reach for anything, etc.
This is the inevitable result of training us to behave like an occupation force surrounded by people who want to kill us. Of course we’re fucking paranoid, trigger happy, and all the rest.
Not to dismiss the obvious racism here. My comments were about why they thought it made sense to break the window, drag the man out bodily, TASER him, and then arrest him–probably on a charge of resisting arrest. The role of racism in this mess is in selecting their victim. It might have been a tattooed white biker, and it might have been a little old white lady, but it’s usually black males between 15 and 30. If for whatever reason they had fixed upon a white woman as their victim–perhaps because she committed “disrespect of cop”–from that point on the story would have been about the same.
I don’t believe that any more.
And I’m saying that as the grandchild of a cop. There are so many reports now, from every part of the country, from big cities, from rural townships, from all kinds of police forces, from all kinds of infractions. We know that for every infraction that is recorded and publicized, many, many more are not. The data show that the vast majority of police are, in fact, like this. Saying they’re not will not solve the problem. To change this, we have to accept that they are, and start looking at why.
@54 The Mellow Monkey:
Schrodinger’s Police Officer? What type of police officer am i going to face?
The problem isn’t that all cops act like this. Most don’t. Most try to do their jobs. Most are perfectly reasonable, not-perfect-but-not-demons people. The problem is that they don’t get rid of cops that act like this. Even if a town fires a cop for misbehavior other towns will happily hire him. As long as the bad cops are protected the situation will continue to spiral out of control. When middle class white grandmothers like me do not trust cops, the cops have a serious problem The way they respond to the lack of trust (more hostility, more violence) makes the situation worse.
And the problem can only be fixed from above. You have to have police commanders who have a set of rules for what is and is not acceptable behavior and then ENFORCE THEM. If they commit assault (violence outside the rules) they get charged. If convicted, they get fired. If they commit murder, they get tried and thrown in jail if convicted. If they commit theft or rape, they get charged . AND NO DAMNED PAID LEAVE. Toe the line or lose your job while it is decided if you are going to jail. Try to evangelize while on the job, you get fired. Commit theft, go to jail. And you can never be a cop again.
I know that cops feel that people don’t know what it is like to deal with potentially dangerous situations, and they are correct. But they are trained to deal with dangerous situation. And they MUST be held to a higher standard than street gang (as Stewart noted a while back).
My new grandson’s biological father was killed by cops. He was a big guy. He was high on crack. He was likely in a psychotic break (he had some serious mental health issues). He had refused to pull over and instead drove home. They tazed him until his heart stopped. Was it deliberate murder? I doubt it. Multiple tazing has been shown to cause this sort of thing, especially when the person is under the influence of drugs, but one could legitimately argue that it was better than shooting him 14 or 20 times. Was it a case of bad training? Was it a case of cops not wanting to actually put hands on him because he might bruise them? Was it a case of bullies enjoying making that big black bastard scream in front of his mother and brothers? I honestly don’t know. All I know is that my grandson is black and he is going to be a big guy. I fear for him. He’s only ten. Do you think we can fix this by the time he is 15-20? I don’t.
Donnie @74:
Fucking A! Someone needs to create this, like now!
@otrame:
They are also trained to grossly overestimate the danger of their job. Yes, every speeder is “Schroedinger’s cop-killer,” in that the next one has a tiny-but-nonzero probability of trying to murder the cop. But the tininess of the probability is forgotten in all this mess. So they’re trained to overreact to everything, to escalate every confrontation, and to maintain control at all costs.
(Ever notice how now the backup officer comes up on the other side of your car? That’s so he can shoot you while you’re paying attention to the contact officer. Tactically sound–if you’re in a fucking war zone. But stuff like that is pervasive.)
The bottom line here is that police officer isn’t even in the top ten most dangerous professions. The top ten deadliest jobs are:
1. Logging workers
2. Fishers and related fishing workers
3. Aircraft pilot and flight engineers
4. Roofers
5. Structural iron and steel workers
6. Refuse and recyclable material collectors
7. Electrical power-line installers and repairers
8. Drivers/sales workers and truck drivers
9. Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers
10. Construction laborers
Notice that lumberjacks, roofers, farmers, truck drivers, construction workers and garbage men have a more dangerous job than cops.
My heart breaks for you, otrame. I have a second cousin (a little younger than me) who is black, moderately autistic, and really, really big. His grandmother raised him because his mom was on drugs, and when he was around 20 she had him institutionalized because she couldn’t handle him any more. I wasn’t privy to many of the conversations, but one factor was definitely that he had zero chance out in the world, even doing simple tasks he could do like walking home from the store, Anything could set him off, and she knew what would happen to a huge black guy in the middle of a meltdown who literally, at that moment, wouldn’t be able to comply with orders from a police officer. What kind of fucking world do we live in that locking people up is the only way to keep them safe from the police?
@68 Gussnarp:
It’s very sad that my opinion on whether the US has descended into an irredeemable police state hinges on one case before the Supreme Court, but I have to admit that case has me a trifle worried I might need to pack my bags and abandon ship.
As far as the chances of a good result? By comparison, I hear Antarctica has lovely weather this time of year….
Wasn’t there a case that went before the Supreme Court many years ago that revolved around whether it was required to show ID to the police if they asked for it? As I recall the case concerned a black man (of course) who was simply walking down the street. He refused to identify himself. They arrested him. He sued. The case went all the way to Supreme Court. I believe they decided that you had to provide ID if asked for it. I didn’t agree with the decision then and nothing has changed my mind over the years.
I’ve heard of “Driving While Black” as an arrestable offense. And, as recent events in Missouri have shown, “Walking While Black” seems to be a capital offense.
Now we have “Riding While Black.”
It’s a bit like Schrodinger’s Cop: the people being stopped only see the uniform, and they have no idea whether the person underneath will be reasonable or will end their lives that day (this last goes doubly-triply for people of colour).
So yes, each and every cop wearing a uniform is representative of that uniform, and thus, in a sense, is all cops with that uniform. The fact that people can no longer trust the appearance of that uniform? That is the standard by which we should judge all cops, yes, even the good ones, because there is no way to know, for the average person stopped on the street, which one is which. False positives and all that.
(And the worst part is that those who do try to police their own get pushed out in various ways, as Pteryxx mentions above.)
Crap, posted that and saw comment number 74 (*shakes angry fist at Donnie*).
Refreeesh, refreeeeeesh! (I blame being at work.)
@44 Tim Riches
Fixed that for you.
Somehow this site never has trouble finding things to post.
Here is a source for A Masked Avenger’s comment above.
Also of note in that article:
otrame @75:
I’m so sorry this is a worry for you and your family. I hate that we live in a culture that devalues black lives. Some of the supporters of Darren Wilson actually made the claim that since Michael Brown was a big guy that that justified Wilson’s execution of Brown. As if someone’s size means any goddamned thing. No, that shit plays into various racist ideas of black people that are held, such as the idea that big black men are uncivilized, savage and animalistic. A Brute, basically. Sadly, while such caricatures are not the reality, for many people, those stereotypes inform how they interact with black people.
Ray Ingles @85:
Thanks for that link. Something else for me to check out.
Also, for anyone who isn’t aware, the Free Thought Project is a great resource. They highlight cases of police brutality, the abuse of power by law enforcement, and government corruption. I’ve found a great deal of information about the events in Ferguson from them.
@ Tim Riches #44
Majority or minority isn’t really the issue. This is about police culture. Maybe you missed the part where the police department here is saying the officers did nothing wrong:
Instead of seeing their job as protecting members of the public, the police see the public—especially people of colour—as their enemy and themselves as an occupying army. Disloyalty to the in-group is severely punished, making whistleblowing nigh to impossible. Meanwhile, the right wing stirs up their own constituency to protect the gun culture among the populace at all costs, making things actually more dangerous for cops than they’d otherwise be, thus providing them with “justification” to militarize and act with even more brutality. The whole mess is scary and broken.
The way this ought to have gone, if the police had been doing their job to serve and protect:
Police: Ma’am, we’ve pulled you over because you’re not wearing your seatbelt. Can I see your driver’s licence, please?
Driver (as she hands over licence): I’m sorry, I wasn’t thinking. I’m in a rush to get to the hospital. They just called to tell me my mother is about to pass away.
Police: My condolences about your mother, ma’am. I’m sure she wouldn’t want you to die in an accident on the way to the hospital because you went through the windshield, right? I’ll let you off with a warning. Please drive safely.
The end.
[derail warning]
point 1) This OP and commentary make me fear that Gotham, while fictional, is nearly a “reality show”. Officer Gordon (the Batman mentor) is a “good cop” overwhelmed by the pack of “bad cops” he has to work with. *sigh*
point 2) militarizing the police is always a bad idea. Military are always confronted by _enemies_, while police are supposed to “help” and “protect”. The cognitive dissonance of militarized police is astronomical. Militarized police are best avoided while “standard” police are sought out for assistance.
point 3) Springsteen’s 41 shots was intended to end such training for instant overeaction to the slightest action by the suspect. It seems it was never heard by police.
point 4) Teach police, en whole, that bad behavior is seen by the public as a “bad example” and taints public respect for the police. Leading to mass characterization that all cops are bad.
*sigh*
me sad
I have been watching US Police Culture degrade for the last 30 years, here from my outside-the-country viewpoint. (I’m Canadian.) I have noted now a particularly gross and disgusting meme take root in both police and right-wing culture in America, a meme which will guarantee hundreds of black deaths for at least the next decade.
To describe the meme, I have to back to that classic work, “Black Like Me”, in which a white man darkened his skin, shaved his head, and spent months living in the South of the US as a black man in the early ’60’s. The book’s writer was, of course, disgusted and traumatized by the racism he experienced, but troubled even more by one particular meme (though he didn’t use that word). He noted that (pardon the caps) EVERY SINGLE TIME HE WAS ALONE WITH A WHITE MAN, THE WHITE MAN ASKED TO SEE HIS PENIS.
That’s right. The “black jungle buck with the enormous penis and the insatiable sex drive” was on all the white men’s minds, all of the time.
Back to now. In the wake of the Ferguson shooting, I went back over the websites and forums of the police-on-black shootings of the last few years, and read hundreds and hundreds of comments. And I saw a meme. It is best exemplified by the multiple comments in forums surrounding the Michael Brown shooting. Time and time again, apologists for the police noted the bullet hole in the top of Michael Brown’s head, and said that Brown must have been charging the police officer and had literally launched himself in the air like some crazed black superman. lusting to attack and kill with his bare hands the courageous white officer shooting at him.
And that’s the meme. The Super-Aggressive, Hair-Trigger, Suicidally Violent Black Male. And as much as little old white grandmothers also get beaten by the police, there is no single person who so terrifies police with his perceived potential for crazed superhuman violence than the black male.
Six policeman, all with drawn guns and bulletproof vests? Not proof against the Single Black Male, who must be gunned down with dozens of rounds before he gets within arm’s length of the Brave Police Officers and single-handedly rips their arms and legs off and beats them all to death with those amputated clubs. I can’t call this an exaggeration. I have read too many comments from cops and other whites delineating their assumptions of the sheer power and psychotic violence they attribute to young black men.
Yes, there is a real problem for everyone with your police; but black men (and black women, too) are far more at danger from this institutionalized, violent, hysteria.
You know what it reminds me most of? The “gay panic” defence, which excused horrific violence in return for something like a raised eyebrow.
twas brillig @ 18
Seatbelt laws vary by state.
Some implement a “secondary” law, which, as you note, only allows an officer to ticket for failure to wear a seatbelt if the suspect has already been pulled over for some other infraction (speeding, failure to signal, etc.). Other states, however, have a “primary” law on the books that allows officers to pull over and ticket specifically for failure to wear a seatbelt.
I’m assuming Illinois — or at least the City of Chicago — has a primary law in effect.
Meanwhile, a few years ago, I trailed an obviously impaired truck driver through the ENTIRE INDIANA LENGTH OF I-80, made several calls to the state police, and…nope, fucker wasn’t ever pulled over even though we passed several crouching cop cars.
Glad to know they’ve got their priorities straight.
Or Indiana, rather.
I should learn to read.
here I have some questions.
This country as has been noted here before is a violent one in which it is vary easy for anyone to acquire deadly weapons in the form of all kinds of small arms, rifles and pistols.
The majority of people do not even think of walking around armed for battle but many apparently do, including both innocent citizens and criminals.
As was noted not all cops are aped to be abusive violent authoritarians either but some are .
So add to that the fear of crime and criminals that pervades society and the underlying racism and class-ism that are still in effect. You might also add in the fox news mentality and the radical leftist. There are many divisions some real some not that are feared here.
So that is the reality. You can not always tell by looking at someone just who is or who is not dangerous. Neither the cops nor the civilians have any magic ability of knowing who is safe or not.
So as of today nothing has changed. How do I behave the next time I am stopped? How should I expect the cop to behave?
uncle frogy
That video is sickening to watch. What in the actual fuck is wrong with US police forces? Why do they so often seem to want to escalate all situations rather than diffuse them? A police officer’s job is to maintain the peace, and should be skilled at diffusing potentially dangerous situations and use violence only as an absolute last resort.
I can understand being ready to draw a gun if you see someone reaching/going through a bag, but drawing and pointing it immediately just escalates the situation to an unnecessary level. Given this situation, a family with 2 kids in the back, and the husband saying he is looking for a ticket…there is no reason to suspect he is going for a weapon. Police officers must be guarded, but this is well into paranoia territory and that paranoia is likely the result of racism.
As for the legality of this, the U.S. Supreme Court decided, in a case called Pennsylvania v. Mimms, that police may order someone who they have stopped for a traffic violation to get out of the car. Thus anyone not complying with this order can be subject to removal by force and arrest. So despite this being an example of horrible policing and racial profiling, it is most likely not illegal and thus these shitty officers will likely not be fired. Such is the terrible system for police discipline in the US.
The family didn’t want to get out of the vehicle because they were justifiably scared due to the guns being drawn. Completely understandable given the situation.
So what should police do when faced with people who do not want to comply with an order to exit the vehicle because they are scared of the police? How about try to diffuse the situation, calm everyone down, and explain that nothing bad will happen if they exit the vehicle, they will not be arrested etc. Maybe even apologize for drawing your weapon in error? Say you were just being overly cautious, and nobody is going to get shot.
Instead these assholes just escalated it even further, did nothing to quell their fears, and have now ensured that this family will FOREVER be scared of the police.
From the article:
It’s a horrible state of affairs, but PZ is justified in his distrust of police. If the bad ones don’t get fired, you KNOW their are always plenty of bad cops around.
I’m going to go cry myself to sleep.
I´d go further, this would be low even for a gang member – I think plenty of gang members would have been second thoughts after seeing that there are children on the back seat. These
police officersNazi pigs apparently did not. But I must that I am much more angry at the police department for depending these lowlife sociopaths, the article says:and:
I am also sick and tired of hearing the “few bad apples” defense, the “good apples” are apparently either silent accomplices or wholly incompetent at weeding out the bad apples.
Enough is enough, fuck the police.
@Tony (#86): That article has links to external sources for most of its factual claims, which lets me double check them for veracity, but if it didn’t, I’d be a little suspect of their content once the article jumps on the train to crazy town with this:
And the comments are got on the train and just blew right through the station.
But those statistics and the first half of the article are good.
Bullshit. How many police departments pull out their whole SWAT team to do no-knock warrants for minor drug offenses? In the world I want to live in, that would never happen. No-knock warrants should not never be allowed. This is not one-off behavior. This is not a few bad cops. This is standard operating procedure. It’s obscene.
Further, last I checked, the fourth amendment guarantees that we should be secure in our papers. Laws that require you to identify yourself to police before arrest are IMHO completely bullshit and unconstitutional.
“No-knock warrants should
notnever be allowed.”fixed
This video shows exactly what’s wrong with much policing in America today: the presumption of perpetual guilt, the contempt for the public and spirit of the law, and the utter lack of accountability. It’s a disaster. Not quite to Russian levels, but still, to a sizable extent. Certainly, state and local governments should effectively correct it with proper legislation and policy reforms.
Popular culture doesn’t help. Consider one of the classic plots of TV cop shows, the “those creeps from the Rat Squad” storyline. Internal Affairs is brought in to investigate some possible misconduct connected to our heroes. Even if it turns out there was misconduct of some sort(which of course isn’t done by our heroes, because they’re the focus of the show) Internal Affairs is portrayed as a bunch of troublemakers, who get in the way of cops doing their jobs, and it’s often implied they aren’t real cops, since they spend their time going after their “brothers in blue,” and not “real criminals.”
And if the cops don’t get you, the prosecutors will. Like how they’re going for the death penalty against Marvin Louis Guy for killing a cop who was crawling in his window at 5:30am as part of a no-knock SWAT raid. A raid that didn’t even find anything. In Texas, which is a “stand your ground” state. Apparently you can’t stand your ground against unidentified cops if you’re black though.
~*~*~*~*~*~
Pteryxx (#63)
Yeah, the best that happens is their careers stall and they’re hazed and ostracized until they give in and quit.
~*~*~*~*~*~
A Masked Avenger (#72)
As a white woman who committed “disrespect of cop,” I was only shoved against a wall and cuffed way too tightly.
~*~*~*~*~*~
Donnie (#74)
Exactly. And lets not forget that, especially for women and/or trans people, Schrodinger’s Police Officer can also be Schrodinger’s Rapist.
timgueguen
This is, if anything, more apt today than it was when it was written. (Warning to anyone who reads the other essays at that link, the author’s politics are heavily mingled with his mysticism).
@ibis3, #89
What’s interesting to me is that the police department is _wrong_. There is no requirement anywhere in the US to carry ID if you are not the driver of the vehicle. In some states you must identify yourself if asked, but the courts have ruled that simply providing your name and date of birth is good enough. This person did that. He not only provided his name, he provided a ticket with his full details on it. In _any_ state in the US that is good enough for identification purposes. If you are not a driver, there is no requirement to even apply for a state ID.
The cops in this case clearly overreached their authority, and if the kid had not been videoing, they would have easily gotten away with it.
Oh, hell! My mind is spinning! I’ve been a rabid PZ fan for years. As an atheist in Texas, his voice of reason has kept me sane. But this post has thrown me for a loop! First, I watched the video and all I saw was a tense situation. First, unless I’m missing something, besides what we see on the video, the only information available is Mahone’s anecdote about why the officers pulled her over. Then, the guy’s window was rolled up, and it looked to me like he was defying the officer’s orders. And defying the officers orders. And, not following the officer’s instructions. For god’s sake, I’m a fifty year old white woman who drives a Subaru, and I don’t dare put my wallet in a place when I’m driving that would require me to “reach” to get my license if I get pulled over–for any reason. I completely disagree with PZ that the our nation’s police officers are out of control. Shame on you PZ for making a sweeping condemnation of a group as a whole based on the actions of a few.
Oh, you think being arrest for driving, or even riding while black, is appropriate and legal? Sorry, you sound delusional. The police overreached. Period, end of story.
@freethinkerintexas, 107
Out of curiosity, do you also follow this precaution when you’re the passenger?
No. Yes.
Cognitive dissonance
for example
followed by
It’s not “cognitive dissonance” #111; it’s common sense. Those officers have a dangerous job, and they’re always on high alert no matter the ethnicity of the person getting pulled over.
I be policemen would be more relaxed if open/concealed was repealed in their state…..
Dang, #113, open/concealed carry was repealed
@freethinkerintexas, 110
I’m honestly not sure how to say this without sounding judgemental… so… apologies in advance.
I didn’t grow up in Texas, or in any area of America. I grew up in a relatively northern part of the UK, so I don’t have the experiences that you have. That said, if I ever found myself unable to dare to put my ID where I’d have to reach for it… I’d start making my emigration plans.
Maybe that’s something you’re used to, and maybe it’s normal to you, but if it was something that I had to start getting used to, I would definitely see it as my nation’s police officers getting out of control. Honestly, the thought of it terrifies me.
Then why isn’t it in the top ten list shown above for dangerous jobs. If they lie about that, what else will they lie about….
freethinkerintexas @107
You have to take precautions not to get shot by the cops when you’re driving? That’s utterly fucked up.
@Freethinkerintexas
If it’s just the actions of a few, why is it that the rest of the police in the country – the “good ones” – don’t speak out against what “the few” are doing?
Well, the Ferguson PD seems to be putting on a pretty united vast-majority front to be terrible. But hey, that’s just one police department terrorizing an entire town, right?
freethinkerintexas @107:
You really don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. You’re as ignorant as a great many Americans. The US is well on its path to becoming a police state. You likely don’t see it bc it doesn’t affect you, but it’s there.
For God’s sake, go
(↑ me @64)
You also need to read up on how dangerous the job of police officer is. See comment #77 by A Masked Avenger.
Here’s more information for you:
You could also stand to read Police State USA.
Here’s more information about how the US is a police state. You really ought to correct this deep ignorance you have. Til then, don’t pontificate about things you know nothing about. People are literally dying because police and government officials are trampling over the civil rights of citizens of this country, while people like you continue blissfully unaware of this, which helps contribute to the police state.
You are part of the problem.
freethinkerintexas @112:
You’re not doing this freethinking thing very well. You’ve formed an opinion about police officers that is not based on logic, evidence, and reasoning. There is a wealth of information out there-some on this very blog-about how police officers disproportionately target People of Color, especially African-American or Hispanic-American people. There’s no excuse for your ignorance. Stop wallowing in your privilege and take off those damn rose colored glasses. People are dying, and your ignorance helps prop up the very system that has allowed people like Darren Wilson to continue being free after killing unarmed black citizens.
freethinkerintexas #107:
And you don’t think this is indicative of a problem? How gun-happy do your police have to get before you think, “Uh, maybe this is a bit fucking intense”?
Hmmm, isn’t there an unofficial rule about people who include ‘rational’ or ‘logical’ in their nyms? Does that extend to people who include ‘freethinker’?
From a Tumblr blog post I just found the other day (emphasis mine):
(Here’s a link to a reblogged version which appends some photos and background on the original author, you can get to the original post by clicking “ifyisnotfunny” at the top.)
And that’s really the point: it’s not so much the people who do these things, it’s the fact that the whole organization always bends over backwards to protect the people who do these things. And, as has been pointed out elsewhere (in another thread on this very blog, IIRC) it’s not just the police. Even if you fired every police officer in America today and rigorously checked the incoming hires, the whole legal system is stacked to make this kind of thing happen; public prosecutors are ranked by how many people they convict and put pressure on the police to produce more victims while giving them immunity from prosecution in exchange, politicians get elected on “tough on crime” stances, and judges — who were often public prosecutors earlier in their careers — do, too. At every level things are built to reinforce this, even if it’s the police who are actually pulling triggers and swinging nightclubs.
(Oh, and incidentally: freethinkerintexas? You know how your state has a reputation for being dangerously backward, ignorant, intolerant, and evil? The way most of the rest of the country seriously wishes your politicians would stop talking about seceding and actually secede, because it would make America so much better on average if only your state were removed? Well, your comment is the kind of thing that got your state that reputation. It isn’t just the god-botherers, it’s people like you, too.)
In the world I want to live in, police should be held accountable if they shoot a random person who reaches for their wallet. In the world I want to live in, police don’t get off scott-free when they shoot someone on the pretense of “she could have been reaching for a gun”.
Yes their job is dangerous / seems dangerous. They recognized that when they signed on. “Who watches the watchers?” “Powers corrupts.” We need an absolutely zero tolerance policy for this kind of police abuse. We need to remind everyone, police and non-police, that the police are here to serve us. If a prospective cop cannot handle the possibility that he might be shot, and instead he decides that he’ll pull his gun on anything which might possibly be a threat like you reaching for your purse, then he shouldn’t be a cop. That mentality is a police state. The mentality where we need to do everything we can to protect cops’ lives at the expense of our basic civil liberties is a police state. That’s the mentality of a soldier in war. That should not be the mentality of a first world country’s police or its citizens.
freethinkerintexas @ 112
I would just like to register my burning, white-hot hatred for the term “common sense.” Ever notice how what seems like common sense to one person might not seem like common sense to you? Ever notice how everyone and their dog is constantly noting that common sense isn’t very common? That’s because there’s no such fucking thing. What you mean when you say “common sense” is “doesn’t challenge my presuppositions.” You’re not speaking from a position of fact or correct reasoning. It’s argumentum ad confirmation bias. Anyone who uses the term as an actual argument is not to be taken seriously.
Tony @121
I think it’s worse than that. Freethinkerintexas has so absorbed the general fuckeduppery of the way the cops in her region behave that she thinks it’s reasonable to be prepared for a short-tempered thug with a gun to threaten her.
To someone like me – from Australia – that sounds like being prepared to face soldiers/ officials of an occupying force during war time. I keep my ID in my wallet in my handbag which is always on the floor of the car in front of the passenger seat when I’m driving, though I have been known to dump it in the back with the shopping. (I’m never a passenger since my husband’s heart/brain incident means he doesn’t have a license.) I’d probably ask mrmagnificent to hand my bag to me if I were asked to present ID, but I wouldn’t actually be afraid to reach down for it myself.
“One of the officers involved in the incident has been previously named in two excessive force lawsuits that resulted in settlements paid out by the city of Hammond. ”
looks like two more officers get added to the list. Hope the family gets a big settlement. no-one should be treated like that.
The Vicar @124
While the silence of a lot of ‘good’ cops condones the behaviour of bad cops, you must also remember that many of the good cops who attempt to speak out get silenced and pushed out, sometimes brutally so.
It’s getting real hard to be a yankophile these days…
Going mostly unsaid in all of these discussions is that if we had anything approximating decent gun control laws, police wouldn’t have to be so nervous that someone is reaching for a gun all the damned time.
Forgive me if someone has already posted this (including me, ’cause I can’t remember): video footage of cops screaming, “Quit going for my gun, stop resisting!”, while they beat up an unresisting black man. In this case justice may be done (thanks to police dashcam footage) as the victim was cleared and the cops indicted.
mildlymagnificent @127:
Yeah, you’re likely right. Freethinkerintexas as well as many others have absorbed this message for so long, they think this is the proper way for police officers to act. It’s rather insidious how Americans’ civil liberties have been eroded, while the abuse of power by law enforcement has grown, all within a culture that’s been told this is for your own good and protection.
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carlie @131:
Hells yeah.
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rq @129:
Sadly that is the case many times. Many cops are willing to support their fellows as long as they don’t rock the boat. They’ll even support one of their own when they kill an unarmed 18 year old black man. But criticize police brutality or abuse of power? They aren’t so supportive then.
This may be a better video version (on YouTube) of the same incident I linked to @ 132.
fckuk sake, no wonder you yanks carry guns, to protect yourselves from totalitarian police.
freethinkerintexas, #107
The whole encounter with Jamal Jones STARTS with racism to begin with. Why the fuck did they ask him to show his documents to begin with? Black. You’re an idiot if you think this was a white family and you were in Jamal’s seat that they’d ask you for your ID because the driver wasn’t buckled in. At each step, it is the police that escalates it from that point onward.
SIlentbob, #132
I hadn’t seen that one before. Fuck.
@pwuk – the thing is, we DON’T carry guns because of the cops. Statistically, people who carry guns are afraid of anyone else, but pulling a gun on the police can be a death sentence, particularly if you’re not white.
Hell, having a black wallet can be a death sentence if you’re not white.
And if you DID successfully defend yourself against an out of control cop, the rest of the gang would make SURE that you paid for it at some point.
The only place where responding to cops with a gun would work is in the paranoid fantasies of the lunatic fringe that think a few semi-automatic guns could overthrow the American government (after it gets all liberal, of course).
From: Christopher Jordan Dorner
To: America
Subj: Last resort
I know most of you who personally know me are in disbelief to hear from media reports that I am suspected of committing such horrendous murders and have taken drastic and shocking actions in the last couple of days,” the posting began.
Unfortunately, this is a necessary evil that I do not enjoy but must partake and complete for substantial change to occur within the LAPD and reclaim my name. The department has not changed since the Rampart and Rodney King days. It has gotten worse….
@129, rq
So? If anything, that’s actually worse. We are told (falsely, in actual fact, but many people — including the cops — believe it) that cops hold one of the most dangerous jobs in the country, and that they are all brave, brave people who we should respect because who knows when they might take a bullet to the head. But the minute it’s a question of losing their job they’re permitted to be petrified to do anything, and we’re not permitted to describe that as being “bad cops”? It’s rank cowardice.
these two sentences. right after each other. HOW do you manage to show that you’ve adapted to a police that is so out of control you have to behave around them like around an abusive partner, and right in the next sentence claim they’re not out of control?
huh, my last comment landed in moderation, and I can’t figure what triggered it. oh well. anyway.
thatsounds oddly familiar. oh, right, I remember now: “consider the plain fact that the vast majority of Catholic priests do not molest children…”
do I care? when those who don’t do it themselves instead cover for those who do? No, not really. Because at that point, it’s not about the individuals, it’s about an institution that’s corrupted structurally.
well, yes.Gotham is a thinly veiled NYC. Always has been
@freethinkerintexas
it is not quite cognitive dissonance, it’s being the frog that’s being slowly boiled. FYI, no other western country requires one to behave around cops like one would around an abusive, violent spouse. Hell, in many countries they don’t have guns to begin with. In others, the cops have fired like 60 bullets per year, and most of them in non-lethal ways.
And even in the US, cops do not have the most dangerous jobs. They’re less likely to be injured or to die than many other professions.
people in the US apparently are growing to accept the police state.
when did the US get so fucking afraid of everything?
when did that happen, exactly?
if you travel to other countries, the differences are notable.
Cops do NOT react the same way here in New Zealand, for example, and it’s all down to differences in approach and training. Cops in the US DON’T have to be this reactionary; they are ENCOURAGED to be this way on purpose.
it’s stupid, it’s self defeating, and it needs to end. Anyone that supports the confrontation/intimidation method of policing is either ignorant, or a fascist.
freethinkerintexas, #112
Do you have any regard for evidence and reality?
They seem to be on full fire at will mode when a civilian with dark skin is involved.
PZ, I saw this coming 11 years ago, when I was stopped at a border checkpoint just out of Yuma, AZ. The border patrol guy walked very slowly around my car, tapping each window and head and taillight with his nightstick in a very threatening and intimidating manner, glaring at me the whole time. It was clear that he wanted me to understand that he was in charge, and I was the servant. Living as I did in the jurisdiction of “Sheriff Joe” Arpaio, this wasn’t my first such experience, either.
On the way back to Phoenix, I reflected on that experience, and I realized clearly that this was what is becoming of the United States. By the time I was home, I had already made the decision to expatriate. Three months later, I was already living in Costa Rica, and I have been here ever since. I have never returned to the United States, and given the kind of policing in this video, I don’t intend to go back, not even for a visit.
Folks, the only vote that will ever change anything is the vote you cast with your feet. I did that 11 years ago and haven’t regretted it for even a moment – and I would suggest that it’s the vote you should cast if you don’t want to live in an authoritarian police state. And you should get out now, while the getting is good. Because the mechanisms for a paper Berlin Wall are already fully in place.
6 years now in NZ. No regrets for this expat either.