I don’t expect to win this one: it’s gotten the attention of github, the core of the dudebro universe, and it’s already gone far in the direction of delusion, with swarms of self-righteous gamer goons rushing to vote for their bias. The poll asks, What do you think is at the heart of GamerGate? (and like all badly designed polls, uses choices to split the vote). Here’s the status so far:
And this is right after the article tells you to go read a summary written by the GamerGate goons which starts like this:
We’ve got years of social justice ideologies, largely radical-feminist rhetoric, once thought safely contained within small blogging communities such as Tumblr, becoming more and more prevalent within games reporting.
How do you look yourself in the mirror in the morning if you are willing to so openly condemn “social justice”? Isn’t it also clear that what bothers these guys most is feminism?
Go vote. Despair that you’re outnumbered, but just remember: you’re atheists. You’ve always been outnumbered. You’ve also always been right.
Since when did fighting corruption use Nixon tactics rather than Bradlee & Woodward tactics?
At least Misogyny is at 8%, Whiny Man-Babies at 4% and “Fighting Corruption” is at 87%. Change!
Voted misogyny. When I get home, whiny man-babies, which they are.
I don’t have numbers, but I’d be surprised if “small blogging network” Tumblr didn’t overwhelmingly outweigh all games journalism put together. That feels like something of a microcosm of the lack of perspective here: our niche is everything, your half-of-the-species is niche!
“You’ve always been right”
man, if only..
You just have to love the sheer arrogant obliviousness of the Mirror;
Because, in the world according to these goons, online polls totes are not subject to abuse or gerrymandering at all, and represent the final arbiter of truth in all things…
I’ve got to go with whiny man-babies. Vote splitting be damnec. Mainly because at least some of them probably actually identify as misogynists and I’d rather call them something more diminutive.
To amplify my last post, the Mirror does come down on the right side of the argument, and point out that Gamergate clearly is about misogyny rather than notional journalistic corruption, but then provide an internet poll as if they expect it to somehow reflect that conclusion, rather than instantly being spammed by entitled, bigoted gamerbros as it has been.
I think the idea that social justice started on Tumblr, and slowly spread to the rest of the internet, is an idea that started on Tumblr, and has slowly spread to the rest of the internet. Feminist blogging has been around much longer than Tumblr, I don’t know where these people have been.
Yeah, Gamergate is about Fighting Corruption, just like the subreddits about raping women is about FREEZE PEACH, and just like they are only reading Playboy for the articles. We totally believe you, guys.
I wanted to vote Whiny Man Babies, but it really is just Misogyny. The former is just a prominent subset of the latter.
For whatever little it is worth, I voted misogyny as well. As amusing as it might be to describe the bigots behind gamergate as whiny man-babies, this runs the risk of minimising how toxic their attitude and online presence really is. The are doing everything they can to force women out of gaming journalism and indeed off the internet altogether. Their threats and ongoing harrassment forced Anita Sarkeesian to abandon her home in fear for her life and that of her family – this is not some faintly amusing petty tantrum we are witnessing here, but an organised hate campaign. It isn’t funny, and it isn’t something that can safely be ignored as just the product of immature men and boys ‘blowing off steam’. This is ruining the lives of women whose only crime was to openly hold an opinion on the internet, and creating a pressure cooker enviornment that could easily spawn someone prepared to try to make good on the reams of vile rape and death threats spewed by the gamergate bigots and their supporters every day.
Dismissing this kind of vitrioloc hatred as the work of ‘whiny man-babies’ also dismisses the suffering their hate campaign causes to their victims.
@Siggy, 9
No, it’s true! Before Tumblr, there was no such thing as a social justice movement.
The civil rights movement? Came out of Tumblr! The suffragette movement? Came out of Tumblr! The abolitionist movement? Came out of Tumblr! The American independence movement? Came out of Tumblr! Magna Carta? (Ok… not so much social justice there, but still…) Came out of Tumblr!!
So there’s only one option for “valid”, and the “invalid” option gets split between three different choices. Nice.
I’ve been using GitHub for a while for its intended purpose: a collaborative source control for Unix/Linux programming. A class on Ruby programming I just started requires that students use it to get and turn in assignments. I am not happy that it is also part of the Slymepit. Not surprised, mind you.
carlie: In fairness, I don’t think people who design polls like this really think about that. I think they don’t think of multiple “bad” options as splitting the “it’s bad” vote, as much as they think that having multiple “bad” options is itself an intentional reflection of their own views on the subject: That is, they see three different possible ways that Gamergate is just complete and utter shit, and only one way that it isn’t. Which makes sense, given the article. And it makes even more sense that Gaters swarmed in to mangulate the poll, since the poll’s options and the article itself are blatantly mocking them.
But perhaps I am being overly charitable.
I like that they can’t get through three sentences before they start making complaints about gender. But it definitely isn’t about gender. It’s about corruption in journalism. That can only be fixed by punishing journalists whose opinions don’t line up with GamerGate. A quick glossary of GamerGate terms:
censorship: any type of critical analysis that makes me feel sad. (note: using harassment and death threats to silence women is not a form of censorship.)
freedom of speech: harassment and death threats. A right that only exists for men and women who obey the rules of, and recognize the superiority of, those men.
ethics: people say what I like them to say.
bias: opposite of ethics. Anyone saying what I don’t like, because I am a being of pure logic and rational thought.
Their motivation might be standard misogyny, but the most likely outcome of GamerGate is creative stagnation in the games industry. If people aren’t allowed to discuss games in a critical manner, how can they be expected to innovate?
Many of the devs I know are already dancing on the cusp of burnout, and they have expressed that GamerGate and previous gamer nonsense has only made them feel like they are working long hours for less pay for and audience that hates them and has no respect for their craft. I predict a lot of good people are going to leave the industry soon. No big deal, I guess, if you don’t give a shit about game development. There will always be new grads to fill desks to churn out Call of Duty clones to be mindlessly consumed.
Probably the last sentence, anteprepro, is the truth.
But, if it is meant to be mocking, it’s a bit clueless of the gaters to swarm the poll. It’s not as though it actually means anything.
Every villain thinks himself a hero.
Thomathy, it depends who wrote the poll. If the linked article is hosting a poll that originated somewhere else, I might buy that it was intentional vote splitting. But if whoever was responsible for The Mirror article itself was also the creator, I don’t think they would want to vote split. The last part of the article (after linking and quoting the passage that PZ also quotes, from some random gater):
The phrase “social justice” not only did not start with Tumblr, it goes at least back to the late 1920’s. I know this because Bertrand Russel uses the term in his 1932 essay In Praise of Idleness with exactly the same connotations it has today. He gives no explanation when he uses ‘”social justice” and from context it’s clear he believes the reader is familiar with the term.
And he also uses “feminist” and says it like it’s a good thing.
Cool essay. I highly recommend it.
http://grammar.about.com/od/classicessays/a/praiseidleness.htm
You need only look at #GamerGate’s accomplishments:
1. Harassing a woman developer over something she didn’t do while saying it is about fighting corruption in games journalism.
2. Getting Intel to drop advertizing from a website where a woman criticized them while saying it is about fighting corruption in games journalism.
3. Generally making a lot of misogynist declarations and attacks on feminists while saying it is about fighting corruption in games journalism.
How much more do they need to say fighting corruption in journalism to prove they’re only about fighting corruption in games journalism? Would people understand if they got women banned from the internet while saying it is about fighting corruption in games journalism, had Quinn and Sarkeesian declared terrorists while saying it is about fighting corruption in games journalism, or successfully repealed women’s suffrage while saying it is about fighting corruption in games journalism?
In conclusion, fighting corruption in journalism. If you don’t believe it yet, it can be said a lot more.
10% and 84% now. Hopefully the trend continues.
Wait, github is the core of the dudebro universe? I have never seen it used such, was not even aware it could be. It’s actually a fantastic tool for collaboration, particularly on open source coding projects. My suspicion is the github is the core of the dudebro universe in the same way that youtube is.
GitHub is just like YouTube/SoundCloud/WordPress/Twitter, but for code. You upload your code to your own page, allowing others to read/download/modify it, comment on it and report issues. So this isn’t a case of GitHub giving attention to #GamerGate. It’s just #GamerGate hosting some of their crap on GitHub.
The official GitHub blog actually has a feminist leaning, putting focus on women in tech:
https://github.com/blog/category/watercooler
I wonder how well that ‘state of the union’ speech is received.
It wasn’t long ago some prominent word spouts in the “movement’, such that it is, were insisting people keep their eye on the ball and stop talking about feminism, stop talking about Zoe Quinn’s love life, stop harassing – it’s giving things a bad name etc etc.
That didn’t last very long.
Or perhaps there was a coup.
@ mattwatkins, #24
Indeed, I use it for work and other projects. Wasn’t aware that it was at least tacitly supporting this kind of crap. Sent them some feedback, and might actually get a response since I’m a paying customer.
I’d like to think that they just didn’t know about it. But the repo been up since August, so not exactly crossing my fingers.
Some things I found interesting:
* Looking at commit history, there are only four truly active people contributing to this.
* The top contributor is named “messianicdelusions” (hereafter: MD). Seems appropriate.
* Activity continues, but is on the decline. MD has 291 commits to this repo in the last month, with only 8 of those occurring in the last week. Could simply be due to an initial wave of photoshopped images (yes, there’s a folder for that, though it’s mostly pseudo-masturbatory celebration pictures of Adam Baldwin and his ilk) followed by “news updates”, but jumped out on me during the 5 minutes I was willing to spend on this.
* MD is a throwaway account with no other public activity than on this repo. #BraveHero, indeed.
* One of the major recent news items in Thunderf00t’s Twitter un-banning. Victory for the cause! Yeesh.
Back to work…
In case it wasn’t clear, all the “interesting” things refer to the GitHub repo GamerGateOP. It’s quite the collection of derp.
honestly, don’t worry about that poll. it’s all satire (including the article), so don’t take it too seriously. even the author of the article tweeted a joke about it.
“Misogyny” is now at 11%!
I voted misogyny, though “whiny man-babies” was tempting. In my experience, those two have an enormous overlap.
crazynoona
You must be new here…
“We thought the fight for equality could not reach our bubbles of privilege, but now giving a crap about people who aren’t us is reaching the mainstream. We must react like angry monkeys and fling crap at people trying to make video games inclusive, because FIGHTING CORRUPTION!”
And…”fighting corruption” is down by 7% within a few hours of PZ sending his minions. We fly to do your bidding, o great master! (Well, as long as we think you’re bidding us to do the right thing. Otherwise we’ll just sit here and tell you what a jerk you’re being.)
Can someone refresh my memory about how GG got started, please?
Francisco Bacopa @ 21, thanks for that link! I haven’t thought about In Praise of Idleness for years, so it was nice to read it again.
Written in 1932.
Response from GitHub Staff:
And sent off a reply. Figured the TOS that most nearly applied was:
It’s interesting how much they’ve tried to “clean up” their language, and almost comical* how their hand-waving over Quinn and Sarkeesian being harassed online is “We condemn it, but SJWS ARE HARASSING US!”
* Well, not really.
@Alverant,
What actually happened, or what the #GG idiots say happened? What really happened is that a jilted ex posted shit on the internet about the person who broke up with them, and it was amplified by misogynists who resent the idea of women intruding into gaming. What the misogynists say is that this evil woman slept around with game journalists to get positive reviews of her free game to become rich and famous or something.
danielduner:
So they may be trying to change since Julie Ann Horvath quit earlier this year, claiming it was a toxic dudebro culture.
TechCrunch
Ars Technica
Well, GitHub is certainly responding quickly. Thanked me for my “detailed and thoughtful” reply, will incorporate my thoughts into their investigation, and randomly assured me that no one outside the investigation team would see my feedback. Interesting touch, that.
I’ll stop thread-hogging now.
If there is anything of less importance in the world than #GamerGate, it would surely be online polls regarding #GamerGate.
It’s such a good thing we have Jeff Fucking S around to remind us periodically that his personal level of interest is the objective measure of What Matters In The World.
Fuck off Jeff Fucking S.
Misogyny and gamer boys will always be at odds. Remember in the ’90’s the gamer boys thought Lara Croft was the hottest female on the planet?
… In fact it’s so unimportant that I, Jeff S, feel no need to comment on it. Except I am doing so. Umm. Hey! have you seen this trick I do with my head and my arse-hole…?
Ohhh, that’s why my fellow gamers have so much trouble with women? Too few pixels?
Insufficient pointy boobs, probably caused by too many polygons :P
Where do I check whiny misogynist man babies with delusions that they are fighting corruption?
Wait a minute, a thought you guys would agree with me that #GameGate is a non-troversy..
(GamerGate referring to the largely sexist accusations of the existence of some sort of gaming journalism conspiracy and attacking of Anita et al.)
For the record, I support the efforts of Anita and those fighting against sexism in gaming, I was shocked and repulsed by the normalcy of sexualized violence against women in mass-market games.
I am expressing my tremendous disdain for online polling being given any sort of credence whatsoever.
Any result of a publicly accessible online poll is just completely useless.
So, yeah I agree with PZ’s criticism of the “vote splitting” choices and linking to biased articles on the same page. This simply makes it worse.
When you have rival factions gaming various polls via blog posts, absolutely nothing can be derived from the results.
Online polls are a waste of time. I don’t view it as a waste of my time to assert that.
Thanks ck. Yes, I want what really happened. As a gamer, I have no problems with women joining. I don’t do much multiplayer anymore (I’m taking a break from MMOs). The only question I would ask is, “Are you having fun?” and if not “What has to change in order for you to be having fun?” Because if a game isn’t fun, then why play?
Misogyny now at 16%
Fighting corruption down to 78%
Whiny man-babies up to 4%
I’ll take “Whiny Man-Babies practicing Misogyny” for $1000, Alex.
Oh, and it appears that visiting the page multiple times allows multiple votes. GITHUB can’t manage IP checking? WTF?
It does not therefore follow that it is a waste of time to examine #Gamergate. #Gamergate is a non-troversy, but it is one that has ignited yet another firestorm of misogynistic vitriol. That there is no true controversy or scandal does not mean that nothing is happening because of it. Additionally #Gamergate was not plucked out of the aether, it feeds on an ongoing and endemic problem video games are still struggling with.
This is correct, and the people who did go and vote do so knowing it’s nothing but a token effort. However that doesn’t gel with your first post, you didn’t stroll in here saying “Online polls in general are an unimportant waste of time”, it was “Online Polls about #Gamergate are the only things less important than #Gamergate”. And #Gamergate, non-troversy or not, is a thing that is happening with real ramifications. Several women have already been forced off the internet, and the feverish bile being sent at their peers has spiked from behind the thin veneer of “Campaigning for Journalistic Integrity.”
@51
Pretty much sums up the entire story from beginning to end. I added in some examples of things these assholes are ignoring while I explain this to people, though. Like how EA keeps releasing travesties of “games” designed to extract more and more money while providing less and less value (Dead Space 3, Sim City 2013, Dungeon Keeper Mobile, The Sims 4 to name a few), or how Blizzard still requires always-online to be able to play their shitty dungeon crawler on PC, even though the console version doesn’t have that requirement (and neither of them have a real money auction house at this point). No, we must attack people who can barely pay their rent, they are the REAL criminals.
@JeffS 48:
Yes. This is exactly why PZ posts links to them, and encourages his readers to go crash the poll. In fact, it’s even become a verb: to Pharyngulate a poll. PZ does this precisely to point out how silly online polls are, and how much they don’t prove anything. Note the tag he uses for this category is “pointless poll”.
Pharyngulation of polls is a proud tradition ’round these parts, going back into the SciBlog days. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/?s=poll
That appears to be Mirror, not Github, and I wouldn’t assume a random poll on Github was written by Github devs anyways.
Plus IP address sucks for actually identifying people because dynamic ip: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6832724/is-it-reliable-to-use-the-ip-address-to-identify-a-user-on-your-website
Jeff S
You could not reason your way out of a wet paper bag with a hole in it. “I thought this movement which has threatened the lives and livelihood of two women and has now successfully convinced Intel to pull advertising from a gaming publication was a non-troversy.” Really? I actually think it’s kind of a big deal that it’s possible for a bunch of people to unite under the flag of misogyny and accomplish shit like that.
Just not shocked enough to consider it controversial.
We weren’t actually laboring under the delusion that we were striking a fatal blow to internet misogyny by gaming that poll. It still doesn’t hurt to try to show that there are people who see GamerGate for what is is.
Nobody is trying to derive much of anything from the results other than to show that we can game polls too.
There you go again declaring your personal opinion to be objective truth. I’ll tell you something: it took me no more time to click through and select “misogyny” on that poll than it took you to tell us how much you don’t care about it. I’m fairly certain that my use of those few seconds was more productive than yours.
omnicrom @ #53
Ah, I see that I have been misunderstood.
Yes of course, talking about how GamerGate is a non-troversy, criticising those perpetuating it, and commenting on it’s impacts is important.
I meant to slag GamerGate (the continuing accusations of conspiracy) as being obviously unimportant and then slag online polls as being even less important.
@39. Moggie
Thanks for reminding me, I had forgotten about that awful incident. PZ:s dudebro comment makes more sense now, thanks. My point still holds that #gamergate hasn’t been promoted by GitHub and that they are at least trying to promote feminist ideals (even if their offices are infected with dudebros).
Jeff S on racism: that’s not racist!
Jeff S on sexism: that’s not sexist!
Jeff S on anything else: I don’t understand / I don’t see why this matters / It doesn’t affect me / Can’t we all get along?
We show they are unimportant by Pharyngulating them. You show you are unimportant by trivializing our efforts.
I can’t seem to get to the actual poll. I tapped the link, got the mirror article…
The poll graphic is at the bottom. But nowhere to vote? Choosing my super secret very scientific choice doesn’t show anything. Have I voted?
And GitHub does the right thing.
I like to think I helped contribute to this. /pats self on back /will bake own cookies
I asked when these guys find time to play games with all the bitching they do online. I got this reponse. But it’s totally not about misogyny or feminism.
Iyeska @ 60
I prefer the Cliff’s Notes version which goes something like…
Jeff S on everything: My subjective impressions track perfectly with reality.
Has a reputation, does he?
I am sorry.
I am sorry for wording my initial comment in such a way that it could be interpreted as a dismissal of the importance of fighting back against GamerGate. I meant to dismiss the conspiracies.
I am sorry for trivializing the goals of Pharyngulating the poll, as I misunderstood the point of the effort.
If the purpose of Pharyngulating online polls is to show unimportance, and not to “win”, then that is great.
I am new to Pharyngula, and was unaware of this apparently common practice here.
Thanks to hyrax @ #55 for enlightening me.
My sole point was to state that online polls are meaningless. I mistakenly thought people actually cared about the results.
I have voted for “Misogyny” now. 16%.
PatrickG @ 63
That was quick! Maybe try to inform PZ about the development?
—-
A company that managed to do the wrong thing is Intel:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/10/intel-folds-under-gamergate-pressure-pulls-ads-from-gamasutra/
They could use some feedback about that:
https://www-ssl.intel.com/content/www/us/en/forms/corporate-responsibility-contact-us.html
@ Daniel Dunér:
Beard the tentacled one (or is that tentacle the bearded one?) in his own lair? Surely you jest! If someone less afraid of the HiveLeader wants to contact him, I’ll leave it up to them. :)
I’m just still kind of amazed at how fast that happened. I must not have been the only one contacting them, since elapsed time from my initial contact to the repo being taken down was less than three hours. That’s incredible — more unbelievable — response time for this kind of issue.
Funny thing; I contacted Intel about their withdrawing of their ads from gamasutra, and gave them a link to the GGO github page which laid out how to flood twitter with sock accounts, suggesting that, if they’re willing to inflate their numbers on twitter, they’re probably willing to inflate them in email complaints to a large corporate entity in order to get ads pulled too… and now github have locked that rep and they won’t see anything there.
KHAAAAAAAAN!
Oh well, mine will not have been the only message they received.
Also, I think you might be being a bit harsh on Jeff S… maybe I’m missing context here, but it seems like you might be misunderstanding his statement.
Or maybe I’m being naive… not sure.
Damn unintended consequences!
@70
The vibe I’m getting is that this guy has a history.
So many people have chomped onto this one, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out the vast majority literally think they’re fighting “corruption”, through and through. They just haven’t examined enough details to consider that maybe this entire thing is completely made up.
But then there’s that core, the vocal ones that made this a movement to begin with. They don’t seem to have examined themselves enough to realize that they are possibly some of the worst misogynists around. They need to stop this. This whole “gater” nonsense… even Ars Technica has recently had to resort to “middle of the road” posting as taking sides seems to have gotten them too much viciousness (guess which side they took and where the viciousness came from). Ugh.
@66
Damn son, you got dogpiled. Big of you to apologize, I would have gotten defensive because -I knew what I meant- in your situation. That path got me in more trouble though when “intent isn’t magical” got thrown back at me. Online communication is a minefield.
Also, that you look like a white middle class male in your pic probably fueled assumptions about your intent, which isn’t fair, but we all do it anyway. I looked at your OP and thought the same thing most of the others here have accused you of.
Numenaster @ 52 – the poll is host by The Mirror, not GitHub.
Voted.
“Fighting Corruption” isn’t dropping that much.
Good thing polls are pretty much meaningless.
Yes, Jeff S has a history. Not a particularly odious one, but a consistent one. One that calls into question exactly WHY he seems to be so Doubtful and so Uninformed in every thread. He tries to hide behind ostensible ignorance or civility, and gain protection by trying to agree with as much as possible, while still making sure to get in a Dig. Always trying to get in his “well, actually, [X] isn’t quite THAT bad…”. Always trying to shrug his shoulders and ask if we are surely surely sure.
Here are just two random threads where he has done his thang:
https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2014/09/23/perception-matters/
https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2014/09/15/a-professional-responsibility-to-get-the-facts-straight/
And a third, recent one, from Greta Christina’s blog:
https://proxy.freethought.online/greta/2014/09/29/why-both-of-sam-harriss-recent-comments-were-sexist-even-if-you-accept-some-degree-of-innate-gendered-behavior/
(There’s also this, but I believe he’s apologized for his involvement in this thread: https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2014/08/23/a-logical-thought-experiment-about-abortion/ )
Athywren @70:
There is context you’re missing. I don’t have links handy, but Iyeska’s #60 is accurate.
In swoops anteprepro to the rescue.
Tony @79
Welp, that does seem like a pattern at this point, doesn’t it?
Then again, I am a recent convert to social justice having learned about Reddit hosting kiddie porn and the SRS (Shit Reddit Says) movement around 3 years ago now. I have been getting involved directly for about 2 (mostly in SRSGaming), and I was (am) prone to making mistakes when something directly challenges things I believed or thought I believed for the first 25~ years of my life.
Devil’s advocate in me says at least he apologized here too. Is it some form of social engineering to make an ass of yourself then admit you were wrong?
Evan Williams, did you used to post here as ezekiel, same avatar? That would be in 2012.
Please don’t do that here, it isn’t appreciated.
anteprepro
Believe it or not, I am not here to troll. I am here to debate, have my mind changed, and hopefully make people think.
I will often take the opportunity to point out something I view as being bullshit, lazy thinking or unfair, in fact this is my favourite thing to do. This is why I’ve weighed in with objections to certain aspects of criticism of Dawkins and Harris (and criticised them myself as well).
If I appear uninformed , its likely because I am. I am not, however, committed to my ignorance.
I am willing to have my mind changed by good counter arguments, of which I’ve found many on FTB.
It is why I continue to post here.
Unfortunately there have been countless cases where I feel that have been misunderstood and misrepresented, and I’ve spent countless words trying to explain things that I have not meant. I do feel like I’m walking in a minefield here sometimes, you must be very clear in what you say.
Sometimes I find this place to be quite hostile to opinions that differ even slightly from those of the blogger or the majority of comments, and people are quick to make assumptions about your motivations.
It seems I’ve developed quite a negative reputation with some of you.
Perhaps PZ will review my track record and ban me due to “persistent negativity”, but I hope he doesn’t as I would miss the debates.
The funny thing is, I’m in agreement with SO much of what FTB stands for. It’s just I’m more likely to come out of the woodwork when I see something I disagree with. I’ve been an ass, I’m sorry.
PS: I’m also sorry for derailing this thread.
Iyeska, flos mali:
No, sorry. No idea who that is. Evan Williams is my real name. My avatar is just Buddy Christ from the movie Dogma. it is probably a popular icon among atheists? I don’t really know much about the atheist movement proper. I just know reddit atheists are by and large horrible and I don’t read their subreddit. I really like all the content I’ve read on FTB since coming here this week, though. The writers, not necessarily what they are reporting on >_< I'm probably going to jump ship and leave Reddit.com entirely for TheFempire.org soon, since I don't want to support Reddit by giving them traffic even if all I use it for is news aggregation and the SRS community.
All I meant by devil's advocate is that I've been on the receiving end of misunderstandings many times online, and it sucks being outside the clique every time you go to a new website. First impressions you give others are hard to get over no matter how badly you want to improve yourself. If he is a real racist / bigot / sexist then fuck him, though.
Personally, I like the minefield. I’d far rather be heavily criticised over a misunderstanding than get no response to something ignorant, vile, or both. I make far too many mistakes, and catch far fewer than I would like for me to be comfortable without that little unsafety net.
Any actual goons here?
Not succeeding in that at all. Try third party evidence, not just your opinion.
Athywren @ 84
Pretty much. I had to be willing to swallow a LOT of pride in my first forays into social justice. Recognizing my own privilege isn’t always easy even 3 years into this fight.
I have a little personal experience that relates to this issue. Back in 2009, South Park tried to change the definition of the word “fag”. As a gay man I was a offended even as I acknowledged the good intentions behind it. It wasn’t Trey or Matt’s place to tell me that words used against me no longer apply. Changing the definition wouldn’t erase past damage, and of course assholes would still use it against me, reveling in the new angle they could exploit (which they already do. We all know the guy that thinks he’s hilarious by calling someone a bundle of sticks).
It was a nice thought, sort of, but the arrogance behind it was staggering.
Same thing applies to Gamergate.
What you have, at its core, is a movement started by a guy going to f’ing 4chan to complain about his ex-girlfriend, which in turn unleashed a flood of misogyny, rape threats, and worse. Once people saw that, the gaters decreed it was about “integrity in video games”. But that doesn’t work. The bullying group never gets to decide when a hateful word is acceptable, and getting angry about it isn’t going to change that.
Evan Williams @ 83:
In this case, that’s a good thing. I know where the avatar is from, and I’ve only ever seen it used here one other time. In case you’re curious, ‘Buddy Christ’ ezekiel was a flaming doucheweasel.
Welcome to Pharyngula, Evan. If you just feel like chatting, we have two open threads, The Lounge and Thunderdome.
Jeff S #82
So you are starting out thinking you are superior to many/most of the people here. So fuck you for that.
There are a lot of highly skilled, highly experienced people here. If they say something you think is wrong, there is a very good chance that it is in fact YOU that is wrong. And since you and I are white guys, when the subject is sexism or racism, the possibility that we are the ones who are wrong approaches unity.
Iyeska, flos mali @ 89:
Gross. Yeah this is just the avatar I use in Google’s tangled web, and I used my Google login here, so it gave you my real name and my pre-selected avatar. Now I want to change it :[ I can’t help but be intrigued by any discussion forum called “Thunderdome”…
Jeff S:
We can chat more about the problems I have with your comments in the Thunderdome if you wish.
****
Evan Williams @91:
Bourbon fan by chance?
In any case, welcome to Pharyngula.
The Thunderdome and the Lounge are open threads for discussing anything at any time. Many of the regular commenters, as well as occasional posters (and a whole lotta lurkers) peruse both threads. People talk about all manner of subjects and multiple conversations are often occurring at one time. You can jump right in. Only caveat is that in the Lounge, you must be kind to others. In the Thunderdome, that is not the case. You can let your inner shark out without fear of coming across mean (though if you haven’t checked it out, I recommend reading the commenting rules, bc there are some things that PZ and the commentariat don’t tolerate-bigotry being a biggie).
Evan @ 91:
Heh. Thunderdome is quite fun, and it’s a good place to practice fang sharpening.
Tony:
Handy link: https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/rules/
Jeff S:
Yeah, we get that you feel that way, you say it often enough. What does happen, is that after multiple people will point out that you’re wrong about something, you change your words around, but say the same thing. Then you say it again and again and again and again, a la your performance at Greta Christina’s (and here). People get damn frustrated with you because you do not listen. Want people to be more patient and happy with you? Learn to listen.
anteprepro (#77)
Consistently odious enough to get banned from Greta’s, though.
And he admits he’s ignorant, but he still thinks it’s appropriate to “point out” what he judges “bullshit, lazy thinking or unfair.” Why is he not confined to the Thunderdome yet?
Iyeska, flos mali @ 93
Aye? I’m so used to SRS, where the mantra is “don’t touch the poop” (the posts they link to and make fun of in the safety of our own subreddit). You are forbidden from using their subreddit as a springboard to attack the targets they are pointing out, which is probably a self-preservation method since the reddit admins would probably love nothing more than to destroy the fempire for pointing out all their lucrative hit-generating child porn and creepshot subreddits to the wider world and forcing said admins to actually do something about them (shut them down).
—
I love fighting, though I’m probably not very good at it since I’ve been trying to restrain myself for so long. Sharp fangs are good, but precision is better. I don’t want to accidentally make an ass of myself while attempting to fight the good fight.
———
TRIGGER WARNING: RAPE STORIES AND UNMITIGATED ASSHOLES
I don’t know if you actually do trigger warnings here, but I wrote real stories of real things that happened. They’re not graphic, but I’m not sure that matters. In the following Reddit posts I am Fortescue82.
———
Here is a fight I accidentally started today and have probably done the cause more harm than good with according to someone trying to reason with me. I’m very curious to hear your opinion on if this thread / my behavior is actually causing more harm than good. I do admit I probably should have tried to be more educational and less confrontational given what I didn’t realize was a genuinely hostile environment to the idea I was presenting. I was not trying to start a fight with the post, but my instincts are to call shitheads out when I see them. As someone else here mentioned in another thread “If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem” -MLK.
———
That OP was my reaction to the reaction I got from trying to ask nicely for gamer doodz to stop using rape as an analogy for losing at a video game.
———
So yeah, let me know where I fucked up in all this, because I probably did, just not how the assholes who want to trivialize the word “rape” think I did.
Hi this is Evan with a spiffy revised nickname.
So, I mentioned a few times there is a bit of cleansing sunshine in this festering rot-pit called SRS:
Here it is. Not everyone on Reddit is a horrible person, but they overwhelming are and that is why I am in agreement with the idea of abandoning the site forever in favor of The Fempire instead.
I would change my avatar, but I don’t seem to be able to. WordPress has decided this is to be my avatar forever.
@PZ
Thanks for mentioning the poll, I somehow missed it.
I voted for fighting corruption, and you’re right, I am an atheist, and I’ve always been outnumbered. This wouldn’t be the first time, though I don’t believe I’ve been called a whiny man-baby by the previous group of people who thought that atheists were bad bad people. A sinner and damned to hell, sure, but whiny man-baby?
It’s a baby step up.
@jodyp #88
It’s interesting you’d put the origin of it like that, since I don’t believe 4chan is where Eron went to first, though certainly his blog post caught their attention. It’s also interesting your timeline about when exactly the turn into video game integrity occurred, since even if granting that this reason was only a cover for a campaign of misogyny, it was actually espoused at the very onset, and not, as you put it, when people began to notice what the “gaters” were saying.
Where exactly did you get your information? If your sources claimed the above, I’d suggest you scrutinize the rest of it for similar inaccuracies.
Ah, self-admitted MRA fuckwit. The horde voted for misogyny….
Eron went to several sites. 4chan was the only one that didn’t take it down. And it only became about “integrity” once the gaters saw they were losing the PR war. Before then they were after her scalp.
So no. Don’t try and claim an issue brought to us by an abusive boyfriend and the web page that cooked up #endfathersday has anything to do with “integrity”.
10:50pm EST and it’s at 20% for Misogyny, 75% for Corruption. Not bad, horde!
@jodyp #101
I’m sorry jodyp, but that just isn’t true.
One of the very first video on the subject, mundanematt’s, explicitly pointed out the potential appearance of impropriety and the incestuous nature of indie game development, and this was one of the video that sparked the almost 2 month event now. This is easily verifiable, you can check the dates yourself on his video.
So I don’t see how you can go around claiming that it only became about integrity after the “gaters” lost the PR war, when one of the very first issue brought up was integrity, even if you believe it all to be just a defense for misogynists to harass a female game developer et al.
Secondly, Eron didn’t go to 4chan to talk about his blog post and the subsequent reactions until the entire thing had already exploded, and in addition, 4chan wasn’t the only major site that didn’t take it down, The Escapist was also a hub for discussion on the subject.
One of the interesting ting I’ve noticed is that the mass take down of anything and everything related to Eron’s blog post pretty much everywhere else was, I’d argue, one of the very major reason why this thing gained so much traction so quickly.
You’ve certainly claimed a lot of things, but unfortunately I don’t believe any of it is true. The facts seems very clear on all of this, I’d like to believe that you’re just not aware of it.
Links to your facts, not your opinion of the “facts”
Certainly.
https://medium.com/@cainejw/a-narrative-of-gamergate-and-examination-of-claims-of-collusion-with-4chan-5cf6c1a52a60
Is a somewhat decent write up of the ramp up and beyond, with links to archives of the primary sources.
If you’re into the individual events, then here is an interactive timeline:
http://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry/336432/The-GamerGate-Chronicles/#vars!date=2014-10-01_20:21:24!
And of course, the Escapist thread where these things were compiled:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.860762-GamerGate-Discussion-Debate-and-Resources
Specifically, the first two posts. I don’t suggest you read the entire thread unless you hate your life and have nothing better to do.
The latter two links are a bit of an information overload, which is why I’d suggest you just read the write up. If I’ve misinterpreted the data, feel free to eviscerate me on them, but I’m sure I don’t have to tell you that.
It is entirely true. No amount of smoke you throw out is going to hide that.
If you were interested in “integrity” you wouldn’t be so attached to the name Mr Baldwin hucked at her. But you’re not about that.
One of 4chan’s favorite pastimes is co-opting causes for trolling. So you’re either a dupe or you’re in on it.
@jodyp #106
You’re simply repeating your claims without any evidence, any source, anything at all to support them.
I’ve stated the facts and linked my sources. To extend the metaphor, it’s not smoke, but fire.
Reality has a habit of still existing even when our eyes are closed, so if/when you feel like looking at the facts to decide what’s true or not, rather than how you feel about the subject matter, it’ll still be here for you to consider.
“Whiny man-babies”?
The proper term is “Babymen”. Sheesh.
ansatz, this isn’t the first post here about gamer gate, why don’t you go read those?
They pounced at a chance to slut shame a women who dared make a game they don’t consider a game. If they gave a shit about corruption, they’d look into it where they’d discover there’s no fucking corruption in her case. But no she gets death and rape threats since she dared be a woman in gaming. If they cared, they’d spread far and wide how she’s innocent of all charges held against her and fight to stop the threats and harassment she’s received.
Have you even read your own links? From the get go there’s shaming (calling her 5guys), discussion of releasing her nudes and targeting her family. Yeah, misogyny is totally not involved. Your cause is clearly so noble and pure. Where does the name and tag #GamerGate come from again? Oh, right.
And this:
Is bullshit because those men weren’t targeted like Quinn was. Who they focus on and how tells on them. The rest is the same biased bullshit. No matter how much you say you’re keeping to the facts, it’s clear they’re biased since they call into question Quinn’s been harassed. So go fuck off with your “facts”.
@ ansatz. Most of the comments in the medium.com article the author suggests are “harrasment” of gamergaters are simply people calling them bad people for supporting a cause rooted in misogyny and witch hunting.
That’s not harassment, ask Zoe what harassment is, better yet ask her dad who answered the phone to a complete stranger who called him just to scream his daughter was a “whore”!
ansatz @99:
I see you’re one of those people under the mistaken assumption that #gamergate was about corruption. Le sigh…
“github”? Would that be as in “useless git”?
Ansatz: I just don’t feel the need to extrapolate to a guy that completely ignores the fact that he got his marching orders from 4chan.
I also wonder why so much of this “fighting corruption” has involved targeting women with sexist and misogynistic comments.
Yeah, they’re so busy “fighting corruption” they can’t seem to find any time to worry about that.
History of GamerGate:
The claims that gamergate is about fighting corruption fall flat on their face when you look at the response Zoe Quinn received after her boyfriend posted those allegations. The responses were sexist and misogynistic. They were personal attacks against Quinn. They weren’t focused on the so-called corruption. Moreover, once it was found that the allegations of favorable coverage were disproven, people were still attacking Quinn.
While corruption has become part of the discussion, the initial spark of gamergate was the sexist and misogynistic attacks against female gamers under the thin guise of corruption.
@ Tony!
Also worthy of note: the men Zoe Quinn supposedly fucked in exchange for positive reviews haven’t been harassed at all despite being willing to sell positive reviews in exchange for sex. Which is always how it goes when a woman is accused of sleeping her way to somethingorother. It never seems to damage the integrity of the man. Funny, that.
@JAL #109 and @Tony #116
Excuse me for responding to your posts as one, but they both contain a similar theme.
Indeed, there were sexist and misogynistic responses at GamerGate’s origin. I’m not disputing that.
There were also, however, discussions on potential ethical breaches and on impropriety or the appearance of such, some of which didn’t pan out, and some of which did.
JAY, you read the sources, and yes, so did I, you must have seen those posts as well.
Tony, even that Wikipedia article you’ve quoted has it:
So your conclusion that they weren’t focused on the so-called corruption from the beginning, I don’t believe to be correct, and I don’t believe the evidence you’ve put forth shows you to be correct here. On your point that the intial spark of GamerGate operated under a thin guise of corruption, I’ll return to at the end to explain why I don’t believe that to be the case.
(An interesting aside, earlier versions of the GamerGate article were decidedly more lopsided. It’s been quite fascinating watching the evolution of that article overtime.)
I would like to take the time now to write some observations I’ve had reading about GamerGate on the Freethought community.
What I don’t think is quite appreciated here is that GamerGate isn’t a monolithic entity of one mind and one voice. It is instead a gathering of disparate individuals from all walks of life, with the only commonality connecting them all is an interest in video games. What I see is a myopic focus on the extremists of GamerGate, on fringe elements as representative of the whole.
Some of the people in the GamerGate movement are virulent misogynists. Some of them are trolls. And some of them are quite normal modern 21st century people, people who condemn harassment, people who condemn sexism, people who condemn the misogynistic elements in the origin of GamerGate (the Escapist actually started a new thread to compile everything from its original one for this very reason, for example).
And in fact, I’d argue that the vast majority of the people in the GamerGate movement are of the last group, and it is this group that’s the reason why GamerGate is still going on, rather than just losing steam and petering out. It is this group that have been maligned by the broad strokes of various outlets, various communities, as misogynistic as sexists as harassers as immature as whatever have you.
To make this more relatable, think of GamerGate as the atheist community. You’ve got wonderful people, full of brilliant insights, tragic stories, and a passion for reason and thought. But you’ve also got others who are, not quite so wonderful. I’m sure you all can think of a few (or more). Suppose the an outside group latches on to those elements of the atheist community, to label atheists in general as rapists, as misogynistic, as sexist, as bullies, as just angry cowards shaking their fists at the sky, mad at God for something wrong in their life.
All too often here, I’ve seen the GamerGate community generalized in a similar manner, with any dissenting thought quickly labeled as dupes, MRAs, or told to fuck off, see above for examples. As if reasonable people can’t disagree, as if anyone who does is clearly irrational. Concerns about corruption are quickly brushed aside, by evidence of the angry few as clearly a cover, clearly a shield, without quite realizing that the gaming community has a history with problems in the industry and the press and the general public on such matter.
Ally recently had a post where he made a statement reflecting that ignorance of history, where he asked why Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian were singled out, but not someone like Jack Thompson, who believed that violent video games were murder simulator and sought to ban them.
Well, point in fact, Jack Thompson was roundly attacked and ridiculed by the gaming community. Look up Jack Thompson and Mortal Kombat if you want to see a facsimile of him be beaten and killed, or not.
Look up Geoff Keighley, or the Dorito Pope. Look up the Kane and Lynch fiasco.
All these events and others, along with a building frustration with the video game press, are the context for GamerGate. That is why I don’t believe the corruption issue to be a thin guise, because there has been clear precedents on this topic.
Concerns about corruption are very much at the heart of GamerGate, and has always been. Tony and JAL, I believe that the focus on the misogynists have blinded you to the majority of the people in GamerGate who do believe, sincerely and passionately, that the video game journalism industry has clear ethical issues they need to solve, and it’s no wonder if most of what you read are what the misogynists write.
Seven of Mine @ 117
I’m just quoting this because it’s been bugging the shit out of me and it’s something that cannot be pointed out too many times.
Bunch of lovely paragraphs from Luke McKinney’s Cracked article on gamergate.
And…
Also…
Finally…
Truth and beauty!
@ ansatz
Bullshit. If you’re willing to march under the same banner, you’re not condemning that behavior. You’re supporting it. You’re less concerned about living, breathing human beings having their lives and livelihoods threatened than you are about whether your favorite games are getting honest reviews.
You know, when some people take a look at their fellow travelers and notice they are quite frankly just horrible, they might might just have a moment of reflection and think, “am I an arsehole?”. If you want to nail yourself of the cross of journalistic integrity on behalf of a bunch of misogynist wankers then good luck to you. i hope you enjoy the company you’ve chosen to keep.
@ansatz, 99
Why? Could you explain how harrassment campaigns against women, sockpuppet floods, and boycotting any sites critical of the movement fight corruption? Imagining for a moment that there really is a struggling undercurrent of legitimate concern under it all, why wouldn’t you abandon the hordes who only care about hating others so your actual concerns might actually have the slightest of chances of succeeding? It seems like your best option would be to step back, take a breath, ditch the haters, and start again with some sense to your actions.
“This uniform I’m wearing? Look, don’t assume I agree with Mr Hitler about everything. For me, it’s all about the agricultural policy”.
Your cap has a skull on it, ansatz. Own that or GTFO.
This whole thing, assuming any of the redeeming qualities being claimed are true, just reminds me of the MRM.
You’ve got left wingers screaming about how feminism is a deeply conservative movement that wants to hold working men down, and right wingers screaming about how feminism is a communist plot to destroy America (why do communist plots ever visit my part of the world? :( ) and they don’t care that they’re marching cheek by jowl while using each other as the tool to demonise feminism as long as they get to demonise feminism.
You’ve got atheists screaming about how feminism is a religion, and thus bad by default, and theists screaming about how feminism is an atheistic plot to destroy the godly family unit, and they don’t care that they’re marching cheek by jowl while using each other as the tool to demonise feminism as long as they get to demonise feminism.
Then you’ve got a small number of people who are legitimately concerned about ways in which various classes of men suffer in the world, who naively believe that the movement, despite how rarely it addresses their concerns, is all about their cause, and the misogynists are just a few outliers who you can’t do anything about, so what can ya do?
QFMFT
ansatz
The wanted vengeance and saw an out to dish it out and call it justice. You just keep skipping over it. Why did make those suggestions? Why did they believe the ex and not Quinn? Why did Quinn receive the hate and threats she did?
While vile, that isn’t the same thing as Anita’s faced so cut the gender blind bullshit and placing women outside the gaming community.
Happened in October after the face and having a meme mocking you is not the same damn thing.
Don’t have to, I remember. I’m a gamer too. Why didn’t they make a movement then? The interview confirmation of his firing due to the low score came out in March 2012, where were they then? But no, let’s wait two fucking years and targeted one woman who’s done nothing wrong because an ex claimed she did. Brilliant.
Where the fuck were those brave soldiers all those years ago when it become clear how corrupt that shit was with the big names like IGN and shit? Why pounce now over a woman who hasn’t done anything wrong? Why didn’t they look into it first, if they’re so concerned? Why don’t they mention how Quinn didn’t sleep with people for favorable reviews? That bullshit has been debunked, but ya’ll keep prattling on like facts don’t matter because “OMGZ CORRUPTION!” No, they latched onto an easy victim because she’s a slut fucking guys besides them and screwed over an ex, which they just couldn’t allow.
If the majority of gaters gave a shit, they’d branch off away from the label and make their own movement for it instead of making cause with misogynists. Police your own or get tainted by them. But the misogyny isn’t a problem for them, because they don’t care. That’s SJW shit to them and they have more important things to do like slut shaming every women people claim to have slept with men in the industry. It’s a feature, not a bug which works with their message. The only time they started given token disclaimers about “not approving of harassment” while decrying how the lying slut could be making it all up anyways is when they got media backlash from places like Cracked.
As far as your No True Gaters bullshit, shove it. They are those in your movement, that started the fucking movement, who are misogynistic and sexist bullies. For your #NotAllGaters shit, you must not be paying attention. There are atheists, not outsiders (just like with GamerGate) who are rapists, misogynists and sexist bullies. The difference is those here, like us, do more than give token disclaimers at the top of posts whining about people assuming we’re one of the assholes in the movement. We FIGHT those fuckers because we know it’s wrong, want to protect the victims, want to stop it from happening and don’t want to be associated with those assholes. You should fucking try that tactic some time, asshole instead of acting like being concerned about misogyny is “blinding to the real issues, those bitches don’t matter anyways”
ansatz
The wanted vengeance and saw an out to dish it out and call it justice. You just keep skipping over it. Why did make those suggestions? Why did they believe the ex and not Quinn? Why did Quinn receive the hate and threats she did?
While vile, that isn’t the same thing as Anita’s faced so cut the gender blind bullshit and placing women outside the gaming community.
Happened in October after the face and having a meme mocking you is not the same damn thing.
Don’t have to, I remember. I’m a gamer too. Why didn’t they make a movement then? The interview confirmation of his firing due to the low score came out in March 2012, where were they then? But no, let’s wait two fucking years and targeted one woman who’s done nothing wrong because an ex claimed she did. Brilliant.
Where the fuck were those brave soldiers all those years ago when it become clear how corrupt that shit was with the big names like IGN and shit? Why pounce now over a woman who hasn’t done anything wrong? Why didn’t they look into it first, if they’re so concerned? Why don’t they mention how Quinn didn’t sleep with people for favorable reviews? That bullshit has been debunked, but ya’ll keep prattling on like facts don’t matter because “OMGZ CORRUPTION!” No, they latched onto an easy victim because she’s a slut fucking guys besides them and screwed over an ex, which they just couldn’t allow.
If the majority of gaters gave a shit, they’d branch off away from the label and make their own movement for it instead of making cause with misogynists. Police your own or get tainted by them. But the misogyny isn’t a problem for them, because they don’t care. That’s SJW shit to them and they have more important things to do like slut shaming every women people claim to have slept with men in the industry. It’s a feature, not a bug which works with their message. The only time they started given token disclaimers about “not approving of harassment” while decrying how the lying slut could be making it all up anyways is when they got media backlash from places like Cracked.
As far as your No True Gaters bullshit, shove it. They are those in your movement, that started the fucking movement, who are misogynistic and sexist bullies. For your #NotAllGaters shit, you must not be paying attention. There are atheists, not outsiders (just like with GamerGate) who are rapists, misogynists and sexist bullies. The difference is those here, like us, do more than give token disclaimers at the top of posts whining about people assuming we’re one of the assholes in the movement. We FIGHT those fuckers because we know it’s wrong, want to protect the victims, want to stop it from happening and don’t want to be associated with those assholes. You should fucking try that tactic some time, asshole instead of acting like being concerned about misogyny is “blinding to the real issues, those b*tches don’t matter anyways”
Damn. I make a post asking if I’m doing right in the fight, and all the posters want to do here is feed a troll all night long. >:-|
Fortesque @ 128
Are you seriously going to whine that people spent their efforts refuting Gater bullshit instead of patting you on the head?
128@ would diddums like a cookie?
Seven of Mine @ 129
While a pat on the head would be nice, I was more interested in knowing if I fucked up in my efforts. I figured this would be a good place to find people willing to call me out on my methods / arguments if I had actually “done more harm than good” as one person in those threads accused me of.
If anyone had a problem with something you’d said, you’d have heard about it.
@132
Based on the swiftness of this exchange I’m inclined to believe you :)
Pro tip: if you’re learning from other people, shut up and pay attention to them. If Jeff S were genuine, he’d type a hell of a lot less.
Indeed. It takes a tremendous amount of presumption and self importance to be simultaneously aware of your own ignorance on a topic and still be completely undeterred from pontificating about it.
ansatz,
You and your “quite normal modern 21st century people” are hanging around with sexists, misogynists and bigots because of some sort of “corruption” “exposed” by a disgruntled ex-boy friend trying to slam his ex-girl friend for dumping him. Yeah, that shows real integrity and moral principles.
This quote wouldn’t mean jackshit to you but an Australian general, talking about misogyny, sexism and bigotry, summed it up quite well:
The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
You’ve made common cause with misogynists, sexists and bigots. So don’t complain when we call you and your fellow “quite normal modern 21st century people” misogynists. Yeah, Hans, you’re the baddie.
Said fringe elements are the founders and tone-setters of the “movement”. There is a reason why this movement only started after the Zoe Quinn manufactroversy. It all started at 4chan and Reddit as a harassment campaign, and IT WAS ALL DOCUMENTED BY ZOE QUINN CRASHING THEIR CHAT ROOMS.
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/09/06/do-you-still-think-that-gamergate-is-a-spontaneous-movement-against-game-industry-corruption-zoe-quinn-has-some-screenshots-to-show-you/
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/09/08/zoe-quinns-screenshots-of-4chans-dirty-tricks-were-just-the-appetizer-heres-the-first-course-of-the-dinner-directly-from-the-irc-log/
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/09/10/spamming-doxxing-and-sockpuppeting-4channers-dirty-tricks-straight-from-their-irc-log/
You can disbelieve reality all you want, ansatz. It doesn’t make the truth any less true. You’re a dupe lending your good intentions to misogynists. Your “movement” is an astroturfed farce created to give respectable cover to assholes trying to harass women out of gaming because they think it’s “their” hobby.
Tell me, why is your “movement” obsessed with Anita Sarkeesian? She’s not even a journalist.
ansatz @118:
A: allegations that were disproven
B: people who cited these allegations did nothing other than attack Quinn with rape and death threats. This is not being worried about corruption. This is misogyny thinly disguised as an attempt to fight corruption.
@Fortesque, 131
Thinking back over my own internet career, doing “more harm than good” is usually just a way of accusing you of being anything other than sugar sweetness and failing to display the patience of a saint when disagreeing with someone. The people who care more about tone than substance also seem to have a habit of not caring too much about the substance anyway.
Don’t get me wrong, I am in basic agreement with the whole “don’t be a dick” mentality, but it’s not the be-all and end-all of talking to people on the internets, and the people who’ll refuse to consider what you’re saying because you were a bit mean would probably find some other excuse to ignore you anyway.
The thing is, even if we granted that gamergate was really about journalistic corruption, it’s still really stupid. I mean, what causes have they taken up so far?
There was the whole thing with Zoe Quinn supposedly sleeping with a Kotaku writer–who apparently never reviewed her game anyway. And if he had, that would have been on him, not Zoe. There was all the backlash against Jenn Frank, who had the audacity to write an op-ed with opinions in it. Apparently gamergate does not understand what an op-ed is. And there was backlash against Gamasutra’s “Gamers are over” article, which I thought was perfectly fine, but even if you disagreed with the article, that’s clearly a matter of disagreement rather than journalistic “corruption”.
And some of the more general complaints are about the “incestuous” indie industry, and “radical feminism” infecting games journalism. What I’m getting out of this, is that gamergaters don’t like indie games, and don’t like the opinions of certain games critics. Well, I like those games and those game critics, and you can just not play them and not read them.
I’m totally not sorry that the “reasonable” gamergaters made the tactical blunder of attaching themselves to a label that is so closely associated with misogyny that no one can take it seriously. They deserve to lose, even if that blunder was unintentional.
@vaiyt, 138
Because if you don’t watch her videos entirely, you can act as if she cherry picks and leaves out vital details. I know, I always have a list of concerns by the time I’m half way through one of her videos. I never have that list by the end of the video, because she deals with the whole list as far as I can see before the credits roll.
…Not that it would particularly matter if she was cherry picking, since her claim is that gaming contains misogynist tropes, not that gaming is uniquely and universally misogynist, and so isn’t disproven by the existence of exceptions.
Fortesque
Don’t do this. People are under no obligation to respond to anyone’s post, no matter how awesome it may be.
And there is a reason trolls are actively fought against. We may never change the mind of someone like ansatz, who falsely believes that gamergate is all about corruption (yeah, good old corruption…we’ll fight that by sending rape and death threats to Zoe Quinn…that’ll stop that corruption), but it may be possible to reach lurkers who are reading and haven’t made up their mind, or who may be inclined to side with idiots who think the core of gamergate is about corruption.
vaiyt @139:
That second link you posted is damning. Dave Futrelle went above and beyond:
Perhaps people like ansatz, who claim gamergate is about corruption ought to read this. Yes, a discussion of ethics and corruption eventually rose out of gamergate, but that’s not why it began. That’s not at the core of it.
Also, if ethics and corruption were at the core of the discussion of Quinn (or Sarkeesian), where is the discussion of ethics? Where are the extended Tweets, the blogposts, the tumblrs discussing ethics and corruption in the days following the so-called revelations given by Quinn’s ex? Why has the “discussion” been about harassment, rape threats, death threats?
There’s more of course, but this shit is damning.
@ ansatz
Simple version.
I don’t give a flying fuck about corruption in gaming journalism as long as:
a. Journalists (or their friends and family) are facing threats of violence, harassment, being lied about to kill careers and reputation, and similar.
b. Woman journalists and other minority journalists are facing prejudiced and discriminatory treatment in the criticism they receive such as sexist and misogynistic themes.
I don’t give a flying fuck about anything else until a and b individually and collectively end in situations such as that with Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian.
Oh I get it. Those misogynistic abusive people in gamergate make you look terrible by association. So that primitive part of your brain that worries about how you and your group looks drives you to come to places like this to desperately wave around the fact that there are good gamers in there too. But you have to know that your point literally does not matter here because it does nothing to satisfy our desires in this situation. Here your point is only a distraction from more important things. It’s as if I’m standing on the side of the road with someone who was just beaten bloody by a mob and all you can do is whine about how not everyone who hated the victim was beating up on them. Fuck that immature defensive bullshit.
People here are overwhelmingly focused on the presence of misogynistic, racist, sexist, abusive and other sorts of aweful people. Dealing with them is simply far more important than what you are concerned with.
Tony @145
Yeah, sorry.
Fortesque:
This is Pharyngula, we feed trolls until they pop, for a variety of reasons, mainly because https://proxy.freethought.online/almostdiamonds/2012/02/28/dont-feed-the-trolls-is-bad-science/ – okay?
I know this is a fast and often confusing environment for newbs. Please copy your earlier posts over to thunderdome, would you? I can take a look at them later today.
@ Jeff S
Let me try to offer you a bit of advice because I believe you and I have similar flaws and I’m just a little farther along in my flaw awareness. How much farther I’m still trying to tell, but maybe I can offer what I have discovered.
You can’t try to help others in a social situation with your primary social motivations. You will fuck up at some point and it will always look self serving, because it is. No amount of pointing out that you were trying to help is going to work because the fact that we did not have their concerns in mind will be obvious.
It’s why you made the mistake of saying it was unimportant, you missed why it was important to others here and were instead focused on dismissing the concerns of gamergaters. You must prioritize what people around here need as best as you can and contextualize any weakening of an opponents position within that. It’s complex, because while there is a common structure to a lot of social BS because we are human, the detail will be different for race issues, gender issues, LBGT issues and you can’t assume anything.
Figuring out why things are important to others around here is pretty much my top priority at the moment. Picking apart the awful arguments of others is one of my favorite things to do too. Some people like to fight, it’s why you have professional martial arts. It’s fun analyzing strengths and weaknesses, how deception works functionally and more. But you have to understand that is an aggressive act of dominance and it needs to be used with care. You have to understand why to fight for others, how to fight for others, and when to fight for others. Because you can do it for the wrong reasons (yours instead of theirs), in the wrong ways, and when they don’t want you to.
good article, relevant. Jacobin magazine.
Fortesque:
Answered you here: https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2014/09/18/thunderdome-54/comment-page-2/#comment-861379
A. Noyd:
That exchange was a perfect illustration of how Jeff S works. Greta was obviously angry with Jeff S, and it didn’t get through at all. He didn’t once bother to stop and think “why is she angry?”. Jeff S not only doesn’t listen, he doesn’t seem to think there’s ever a case where someone else’s point of view is valid.
Athywren @ 142:
QFT. Fortesque, did you see this? It was a response to your post.
Zoe Quinn ought to be a damned hero to the gaming community. For all the times they’ve fought that games are art against those who argue against it, she actually produced something in the tradition of art advocating for a particular cause, and has been vilified for it. TWICE. First, for making “not really a game”, and now for this.
Wow, didn’t read far enough to see that Jeff S got banned from Greta’s. Well deserved. Fucking clueless git was babbling and handwringing at length and his great defense of himself, for why he was not comparable to some idiotic troll who gave racist apologetics for why CEOs are predominantly white, was that discussing the innate characteristics of race is more culturally frowned upon than babbling about the innate characteristics of the sexes. Yeah.
Jeff S, you need to learn to sit down and shut the fuck up already. Dunning Kruger is in full force whenever you get into these conversations.
Anteprepro @ 155:
Greta:
Jeff S:
Greta:
Athywren @ 142:
Thanks for that. I saw it earlier, I’ve just been very busy this morning taking care of my almost-2-year-old daughter. We went to the library today :)
Iyeska, flos mali @ 151:
Thank you, I read that earlier but did not have a chance to respond until now. I’ll reply in TD.
Iyeska, flos mali @ 148:
Read that, good post. Between this and pledging not to fetishize civility over justice, I can tell this is a very different environment than what I am used to online :) I like it.
Fortesque:
Glad to hear it. I take it you have read Chris Clarke’s The Desert Tortoises With Boltcutters Civility Pledge?
@ 159
Yup and I would have pledged too if the thread was still open :)
Following up from way up thread, the GamerGateOP repository has been reestablished at Gitorious.
Of course, the usual suspects blame this on Github folding to feminists. Oh, and their headquarters is in San Francisco, wink wink nudge nudge.
Given that Gitorious has no problems with hosting a bunch of other similar stuff (see, C+=, the “satirical” programming language bashing feminists and other equality advocates), doubt they’ll have a problem with this.
At least GitHub demonstrated they have some standards for what they host.
Patrick G:
Gee, same place Reddit has its headquarters.
Current results in the poll the OP is about:
Fighting corruption: 74% (down from 88%)
Misogyny: 21% (up from 7%)
Whiny man-babies: 3% (unchanged)
Honestly you guys are still doing #GamerGate?: 2% (unchanged)
Looks like there’s been a 14% shift directly from the #GamerGate bullshit ‘answer’ to the reality-based answer. [nods] Good.
Big stinking hole in the apologia’s of the “no true gaters” types is that they are still rallying under the banner of a supposed scandal that never fucking happened.
The reviews for favors business is ridiculous, the reviewer in question only got into a relationship with Zoe after writing about her in an article that wasn’t a review but rather a report on a failed reality TV show and why it failed.
As for Zoe supposedly DDOSING a charity, this is what the Fine Young Capitalists actually said. In a release titled “On Zoe Quinn, our last statement. ”
It reads;
The name “Gamergate” implies that there was a scandal of Watergate like proportions, there wasn’t. What we have here is the malicious gossip of a jaded ex and a public spat between developers where no wrongdoing beyond the exchange of a few angry words occurred.
All of which doesn’t even go into the fact that the sex lives of complete strangers are nobodies business but their own! If it’s between adults, consensual and doesn’t involve unwilling participants, children, animals or dead people who honestly gives a fuck?
If your rallying point is entirely based on bullshit it’s time to find a new one!
mickll:
Yabbut, it was a woman *gasp* writing about gaming! Can’t you see the injustice of it all!!1!??!
mickll:
Which is why “misogyny” is the most parsimonious explanation involved. This is one of the most blatant manufactroversies I’ve ever seen, and that includes shit from Fox News, which is an entire BUSINESS based on exaggerating and distorting shit to artificially create a controversy about nothing. Someone compared it to OMG BENGHAZI and I think that comparison nails it.
Iyeska:
The real corruption and controversy: “Holy shit, there is a female developer!!!? And she has had sex!!? UNCLEAN! HERESY! BURN THE WITCH!!!”
Hm, interesting. I’ve attempted to post my reply twice now without result. It likely is the length, so I’ll cut my response to two post.
@Seven of Mine #122
@bargearse #123
@Athywren #124
@Moggie #125
@Al Dente #138
I will reply to these posts as one, since they have a running theme of guilt by association.
My response is to simply reject the conclusion. It’s a terrible argument.
Just because there exists certain elements within a large group, does not mean the people in that group supports the terrible elements.
E.g. America, the Democratic Party, the Atheist Community, the Feminist Community, GamerGate.
There could an argument be made that perhaps these elements are large enough that they in turn come to represent the movement as a whole. Indeed, this appears to be the conclusion that many of you have come to.
This is a mistaken conclusion, borne in part because of the information bubble that exists on Freethoughtblog. Of the posts on GamerGate that have been upheld as examples of misogyny and sexism and racism, there are likely 100+ others in various hubs which are not.
If one were to actually take a survey of the GamerGate posts, say perhaps by taking the most recent 100 posts under the #GamerGate tags, the result may be surprising.
One might see GamerGate decrying harassment and abuses and sexist and misogynistic remarks. One might be surprised at just who are making those remarks.
If one peruses 10 pages of discussion on the Escapist thread, one might see calm and rational discussions, one might see self-policing behavior (I believed one of the posts asked for why there weren’t, with the answer being, there are, if things are looked at.), and one might see a very much similar discussion as here on Freethoughtblogs, except of course of the otherside.
The vast and representative majority of people in GamerGate believe the movement to be about ethical standards in video game journalism and their words and actions reflect that belief.
It is the outgroup, it is community like Freethoughtblogs, it is the anti-GamerGate media outlets accused of impropriety, that are the ones to consistently and constantly attempt to smear GamerGate as misogynists as a whole.
@Tony #141
I’m well aware of A. The fact that it was ultimately disproven . . . actually has no bearings on the debate of whether or not GamerGate is about ethical standards in video game journalism.
As for B, again, this is the information bubble I see here.
I was present when these things first began, and what I’d seen, including the people who did nothing other than attack Quinn, were others who dug into things to verify the facts, and have uncovered numerous non-disclosure of conflicts and what appeared to be collusion among the various gaming press to shape the tone of GamerGate, which in context of the history of those outlets, led to legitimate concerns on the state of the industry.
Anteprepro:
Also known as The Feminazis are coming to get you, Bob!
Wow, the second post is still too long. Is the limit around 700 some words?
@JAL #128
On the first point, it is because of independent verification. When the Eron first posted his blog post, I read it, but I reserved judgement on whether it was true or not.
While I was sympathetic to his story, as his recounting were consistent with what I have personally witnessed of manipulative behaviors of partners in a relationship, it could have easily been the case that he had crafted a story that left relevant context out.
So then, why did I believe him? Because the subsequent reactions by others all independently verified his story. Because the people involved, actual living breathing people, came out to confirm that yes, his story checked out.
So I would like to turn it around on you. Why don’t you believe his story? In fact, are you actually aware of what he’s claiming?
There’ve been several posts de-legitimizing Eron as that of a jilted ex-lover, as a dumped boyfriend, or perhaps even blaming Eron himself and accusing him of being abusive. On the last part, I sincerely hope that was in reference to the current litigation, and not without merit, since that’s the exact type of victim blaming I would not have expected on Freethoughtblogs.
On your second point and third point, this isn’t an Oppression Olympics. The point of bringing up those events wasn’t to make light of what Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian experienced, or to stop discussion and criticism against those who have harassed them, but to shed light on the fact that the gaming community has had a clear history of sporadic outburts against attempts to demonize them and against appearances of unethical behaviors. It was to provide context to show that, yes, concerns about integrity in the video game industry has always been a thing.
The fourth point, I will reply to at the end, since there’ve been a couple of others who have asked the same question.
The fifth point, it might be a surprise to you that, in fact, the people who’ve been constantly peddling Zoe Quinn are not GamerGate . . . but anti-GamerGate. E.g. you. I can see why you would do it. It is a very effective tactic to shut down debate, to cast this as just about the harassment of a female video game developer.
But in fact, almost immediately after allegations against Zoe Quinn were made, people within the GamerGate movement took it upon themselves to verify, and yes ultimately debunked the assertion that Nathan Grayson wrote a review on Depression Quest.
That claim was borne out of a misreading of Eron’s blog post, and moreover, was conflated with the positive coverage Mr. Grayson had of Ms. Quinn, and it was quickly squashed within the movement itself.
It was with-out the movement that the mistaken claim was passed around and repeated endlessly, often times in the context of shutting down debate. Believe you me, if Ms. Quinn could be kept out of the debate, it would help, not hinder, GamerGate.
It’s actually a message within the GamerGate movement to not make it about Zoe Quinn, to not make it about Anita Sarkeesian. In part this is a practical matter. And in part, it’s because GamerGate is not about them specifically.
This is why an actual organized campaign have focused on emailing companies that advertise on the various gaming media websites, and not, as some have claimed, against Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian. Some have asked why the men who were involved with Ms. Quinn were not targeted. Point in fact, they are, not individually, as a lot of the people in GamerGate have realized that a more effective method would be to go where the money was.
For your last point, it’s actually a constant concern within the GamerGate community. Should they abandon the hashtag? Should they rally around another name?
Ultimately, I believe there are several reasons for why this never happened.
1) Plain inertia. All things take effort to change.
2) A splitting of strength. This is the same principle behind the poor poll design splitting the ‘bad’ choice.
Lastly, and I believe most importantly,
3) A rose by any other name would still get called a misogynist.
The original hashtag for this controversy was #Quinnspiracy. It was abandoned when #GamerGate was coined, partly because of its narrow focus on Zoe Quinn.
As we can see here, #GamerGate has still been derided as a misogynistic movement. Tell me JAL, do you honestly believe that if a new hashtag was born, it too wouldn’t be painted with the same brush as #GamerGate?
I believe it would, and the reason is because of the recurring genetic fallacy I see here on Freethoughtblogs, on the constant attempts to use misogynistic elements in the origins of GamerGate to judge the movement as it is now and as it will be, regardless of any current context or any current arguments or any current reasonings.
Contd’
ansatz @167:
And I’m sure all this uncovering of numerous non-disclosure of conflicts and collusion among the gamin press is what was the face of GamerGate when it all ignited, rather than misogynistic personal attacks against Zoe Quinn.
And I’m sure that if you assert that that is the case, then you have ample evidence to support your assertion.
Perhaps you ought to go correct Dave Futrelle…
@ ansatz
The only thing your movement as a whole has actually accomplished is to put several people, mostly women, in fear of their lives and livelihoods while hardly directing even the mildest criticism at the men who were supposedly complicit in this corruption you claim to be so worried about. That’s what your movement as a whole was formed for and that’s all it has done. Good luck convincing anyone here that it’s about something else.
And by the “face of GamerGate”, I mean what was deemed most important i.e. the core of it.
Ansatz, just another fuckwitted dudebro pretending like something isn’t what it is. *snicker*. And they expect us to believe their lies and bullshit???? *snicker*
Points at Ansatz *Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha*
ansatz:
Oh my god. That’s a fucking weak defense. You know that right?
Sure, guilt by association is a fallacy. Genetic fallacy is a fallacy. And the fallacy fallacy is coming to mind right now. Fact of the matter: if you are associating yourself with sexists, the movement seems to have started due to sexism, and there is virtually NO other good justification for the existence of this movement….WHY ARE YOU PART OF IT?
That’s very interesting, considering the bullshit reason why GamerGate began in the first place. Fascinating phenomenon, truly. Have they gotten new rationale and justifications now? Or is it just a more sophisticated and civil outrage about the prospect of a woman in the industry having sex?
“They all out to get us!!!”
I have never seen “outgroup” used to sincerely and unironically refer to “The Others” before. Kind of hilarious.
Wut? Explain.
THEN WHY IS THE FUCKING FOCUS STILL ON ZOE QUINN?
‘
You know what else was been a constant presence in the video game industry lately? SEXISM.
Yes, if they had the fucking decency to distance themselves from the witch hunt of Zoe Quinn instead of being too fucking lazy to do so because “inertia” and then whining about everyone else Just Not Understanding their poor lil’ pure hearts because they just happen to be using a banner that was associated with an irrational and hateful campaign against a female game developer for basically no good fucking reason.
ansatz
Fixed it for you. Since you’re too damn thick to actually get anything I’ve said, and I’ve gone toe-to-toe with the very people in your movement that you claim don’t exist, I’m done. The entirety of your comments is bullshit. If the movement is actually about journalistic integrity and doing something about it, I’d be joining in as I’m sure many others would but it’s not. You and your ilk have made it clear how you feel about victims and women being outside (again, I’m fucking one of them asshat) just further proves sexism in gaming is problem that your movement is corrupted with and doesn’t give a shit about.
anteprepro
It’s simple: that shit was obvious at least two years ago, if not documented before, but it took a woman indie developer having sex with people because sexism is needed to get them out of their “inertia”. Thus, the driving force and continued use of it. But no, it’s outsiders like us (even though it’s been pointed out time and again, I’m not an outsider, am a woman gamer, but there’s no room for me in their club) making it about Zoe Quinn because…we’re reverse sexists who hate video games and white males!!!
Gatorgate Genesis: “Shit, did you see that black lady!!? She just stole a drink from the player’s Gatorade cooler!! THE INJUSTICE!!! WE MUST SET FIRE TO HER CAR!!!”
Gatorgate Two Weeks Later: “What? We are just a collection of reasonable people who think that Gatorade coolers at football games need to be protected, who are just becoming active for reasons entirely unrelated to the event of two weeks ago! Don’t judge us by our worst members! Genetic fallacy! Echo chamber! Ingroup-outgroup! AAAAAAAARRRRGGHHH!!!”
JAL, you aren’t supposed to give away the answers to the test :P
Notice, how he doesn’t respond to who I am and the fact his claims of criticizing men in journalism gaming are bullshit, then turns around and says no, the men weren’t targeted because it wasn’t supposed to be about individuals?
Notice how he doesn’t acknowledge my place, my hobbies or my person because I must be an outsider. I must not know what I’m talking about or gaming because my pink fluffy lady brains just don’t agree with him. I’m just too emotional about it.
But in fact, almost immediately after allegations against Zoe Quinn were made, people within the GamerGate movement took it upon themselves to verify, and yes ultimately debunked the assertion that Nathan Grayson wrote a review on Depression Quest.
That claim was borne out of a misreading of Eron’s blog post, and moreover, was conflated with the positive coverage Mr. Grayson had of Ms. Quinn, and it was quickly squashed within the movement itself.
Except that it started because they believed she slept with 5 guys for favors regarding her game, hence calling it “burgersandfries” where they colluded together. If it was debunked so early with no evidence of truth, why did it continue? Why do you name the one man and ignore how she didn’t with others too? And if it was so quickly squashed, why was it repeated so much that others outside the movement heard about it? Why did it take you this fucking long to acknowledge she wasn’t corrupt in this very thread when it’s been brought up numerous times?
And I’m back commenting again because I couldn’t let this shit stand:
ansatz
Dudebro, you’re not being oppressed and people having sex or money for favors isn’t oppression. You are not a minority group and no one has denied there’s problems in gaming, including their journalism. Stop using words you don’t know or get a fucking clue. But you’re blinded by privilege since you always roundly ignored my pointing out the problems with your “men are criticized too” shit list.
Damnit, fucked up the blockquote. The paragraph starting with “But in fact, almost…” is clearly fuckface, not me.
Oh shit, just realized: This is exactly analogous to the Teabaggers!
The Tea Party at one point was assuring us that they weren’t far right extremists. That they weren’t just a bunch of dunder headed racists. Still to this day they want us to think of them as not just the worst sector of the Republican party, but as some distinct party, dabbling in libertarianism or some shit. Just a bunch of people who just really really hate taxes. Just “Taxed Enough Already”, dontcha know? Oh yes, the racists at the rallies are just some bad eggs. Oh, the fact that a vocal, outraged group pissed off about taxes and only taxes just started to exist two or three months after the first black President entered office is just entirely coincidental! Oh, I’m sure you would think that if these people were just concerned about taxes that it wouldn’t have become a haven for racists, and wouldn’t have seemed to have spawned instantaneously and with disproprotionate rage at a President who happened to be black that had done virtually NOTHING in office yet. But…you are being rude for accusing them of racism! Be more civil, and polite! Pay no attention to the men behind the curtain!
@ ansatz
You are misusing the term “genetic fallacy” here. Claiming that one always commits a fallacy when evaluating a belief or position on the basis of its cause or origin is simplistic at best and disingenuous at worst.
I’ll use an article on the Genetic Fallacy to underscore my point here, I’m quoting When Is Genetic Reasoning Not Fallacious? by Kevin C. Klement
One example of a non fallacious use of genetic reasoning that is both valid and sound is provided by the author.
You can see quickly how this can be applied to ‘Gaters. Gamergaters believe that corruption and collusion between the gaming industry and the gaming press is true because of a specific series of events-that are directly referred to in the name of their movement-GamerGate.
And here’s the problem, Gamergate is a movement started by, and still inhabited by people who’s modus operandi was slut shaming and suppression of feminists-not collusion between the gaming industry and the gaming press per se.
Protip, if you don’t want to be associated with lunatics that threaten to rape and kill women for being mouthy then don’t hang out with them or name your cause after their paranoid misogynist fantasy!
Unfortunately, it appears that the last part of my post is being cut off, duplicated comment or somesuch. I’ve sent a tech report for it. For now, here’s a pastebin of it, if this post goes through:
http://pastebin.com/axLtMcHv
It actually addressed some of the points that the responses interim have been making. I’ll reply to them when I can later, but it appears that a lot of people don’t believe me to be acting on good faith and so are engaging in quite a bit of ad hominem. Well, I can only try.
ansatz:
If that is your assessment of the criticism so far, we really have no reason to bother with your reply. You’ve told us from the outset that, willfully or not, you are not understanding what we are saying.
Poor you, poor you. Go to the Thunderdome, join up with Pseudonym. You two could regale each other with your horrible tales of persecution.
Oh, and in that pastebin, your argument that the argument would have died, because if it was about misogyny, misogynistic trolls would have gotten bored and moved on? Complete and utter bullshit argument. Wrong on so many fucking levels.
ansatz
It’s because you quoted the uncensored “b*tches” from my post. Those have to be approved, which is why I now have doublicates up because I keep forgetting the asterisk. It’s a newer thing due to invasions of trolls.
Add ad hominem to the list of words you don’t understand.
ansatz @183:
Where are these ad hominem attacks?
Who committed them?
This is an insult, not an ad hominem. Points at Ansatz, *bwahahahahahahahaahahahaha*.
I will stop laughing when you stop being funny. That will be when you can show you can shut the fuck up and listen to those criticizing you….
anteprepro
Seriously. He claims we’re ignorant yet clearly doesn’t know shit about this place. How long has the Slympit and anti-FTB crowd been running now? Christ. If misogyny died out like that, there wouldn’t be any left since it’s been around since like, forever!
And bringing up The Young Capitalists like that’s a good point for them is really, really dumb. Then there’s his three points on why now which could take just as long to explain all the wrong. “Gaming isn’t all white boys, we just don’t like those others or playing with them or as them” and “SJWs are oppressing us!!”. Ugh.
JAL: I am really finding the whole Media Conspiracy angle morbidly entertaining. It’s like they don’t even care that they look like the fucking Fox News of the gaming world, whining about the Librul Media while spewing out more misinformation than the thing complain about could even DREAM of churning out.
@mickll #182
Indeed, there are instances of where genetic reasoning can be used in a non fallacious manner, but I don’t believe this to be the case.
The form that Klement put forth, I don’t believe can be applied here to support your case. The chain of causation you’ve put forth does not accurately characterize the GamerGate movement, as I’ve argued before.
There has been a repeated insistence of characterizing GamerGate as started by people whose motives were to harass an easy target. I do not dispute that there were such member. I dispute that there were only such members, or that such members were the chain of causation leading to GamerGate’s rise.
You’ve given me a lot to think about . . . while I still believe that my reference to the genetic fallacy is justified, I am now much less sure of it than before. Perhaps the reasonings are not fallacious. Perhaps they’re just in error.
Thanks for pointing that out, I appreciate the actual engagement.
ansatz
Nice passive-aggressive backslap like others haven’t been engaging you because we say mean words. Typical. Nevermind how I point out it’s still fucking sexist rather than you’re repeated claims it’s fucking pure or that it doesn’t matter because corruption!!! Nevermind that you don’t seem to fucking understand sexism since you ignore my refutations of “we’re criticizing men too!!”
I might as well be invisible for how much you’ve engaged me, asshole. Can’t you fuck off already?
ansatz @190:
I don’t know that anyone has said that every single person involved in GamerGate was a misogynistic piece of shit from the jump. What has been said is that the *core* of GamerGate is about misogyny, masquerading as an ethical investigation into corruption (which was poorly done, even if it were the case, and for some reason, only focused on a handful of women)…the face of it was misogynistic…how GamerGate was presented to the world took the form of threats of violence, harassment, and rape threats…the “arguments” made in the early days of GamerGate centered on misogyny …the vocal contingent of gamers involved in GamerGate…were misogynistic fuckstains.
You keep going on and on about #notallgamers, which is neither here nor there. When it comes to GamerGate, the focus of it was on the women that many gamers loathed. These gamers hid their contempt [barely] behind the mask of exposing corruption, but their attempts at doing so merely showed their true focus: slut-shaming and terrorizing women. *That’s* how you investigate allegations of corruption in gaming?
Some talk has been going on about the corruption but that is not the face of GamerGate and never was.
ansatz:
Translation: I appreciate being able to focus on an objection that only involves me wanking about philosophy terms.
You are too obvious. I imagine you would tone troll, but are too lazy to do so outright.
Also, it isn’t just Gamergate had people who wanted to harrass. It is that Gamergate only reached its high level of incoherent outrage due to the fact that the target of their ire was a woman who had sex they didn’t approve of. It’s sexism, misogyny, a strong bias against women. It is fucking blatantly on display. You could see the same thing with the criticism against Anita Sarkeesian over the past years (i.e. there was no criticism, there was only blind fury). And it isn’t just on display with the people slewing threats. It’s on display with the people who were too easily led, who jumped to conclusions. It’s on display with the people who got really passionate about this issue because Zoe Quinn wasn’t sufficiently chaste. It’s on display with the people who genuinely insist that this case is actually important and didn’t give a shit about gaming corruption until this manufactured controversy arose.
And then there is you, defending this shit. This shit with no basis and no justification. Oh, I wouldn’t say you are sexist with confidence. But it is obvious you are dissembling. It is obvious you are handwaving and bullshitting us. Whether it is because you share that common underlying contempt for female sexuality, or just out of blind, unthinking tribalism, it is hard to say. But the effect is the same: You are defending a sexist movement by throwing out a bunch of bullshit to people trying to defend women. Congratulations if that was your goal. If it wasn’t, maybe start rethinking things.
If so, why the name “Gamergate”?
Gamergate invokes the Watergate scandal where burglers working for the Nixon administration broke into the Watergate office complex and bug the Democratic National Committee. A sequence of events that even the most ardent Republican won’t doubt actually occured.
So-my question to you is what scandal or sequence of events is GamerGate referring to if not the debunked claim that Zoe Quinn had sex for favors from journalists or the separate debunked claim that she deliberately DDOS’ed the FYC website?
It’s my understanding that the scandal at the heart of “GamerGate” is the supposed collusion of Zoe Quinn with one to five male journalists offering sex for favors and the DDOS’ing of the FYC. If my presumption regarding the origins of GamerGate is wrong can you tell me how?
@Tony #186
Originally I read @Nerd of Redhead #171 as a response to my argument, and @JAL #179 characterization of myself as a dudebro to disqualify me from using the term Oppression Olympics.
But it appears that @Nerd was just insulting me as an aside from any actual response, and @JAL, well actually it is relevant on what my person is.
It is interesting to read who @JAL thinks I am though.
Please, tell me more about myself.
Tell me about my skin. Does it shine like a pearl? Is it as white as ivory?
Tell me about my orientation. Tell me about my history. Tell me who I am.
Please, do tell me more.
That above there, @JAL, is exactly why #notyourshield became a thing.
#192 Tony! The Queer Shoop
Like the very name of the forum where they started being called “burgersandfries” after giving Quinn the nickname 5guys, like the restaurant because sexism is hilarious and totally okay by everyone there obviously.
#193 anteprepro
Given his ignorance, ignoring my points on sexism and me as a woman gamer, I don’t have a problem saying he’s sexist because his effect is, whether he wants it and knows it or not.
@ ansatz
You haven’t answered my question.
Why does movement’s name invoke the supposed scandals of Zoe Quinn having sex for favors and DDOSing a website, neither of which happened?
If my presumption that the name “GamerGate” doesn’t have it’s origins in the two aforementioned debunked accusations leveled at Zoe, can you tell me how?
Here’s an article on #notyourshield that ansatz is gibbering about:
http://www.cinemablend.com/games/-NotYourShield-Hashtag-Shows-Multi-Cultural-Support-GamerGate-67119.html
Amazingly, ansatz thinks this a gotcha. Because women being antifeminist and supporting the partiarchy is COMPLETELY UNHEARD OF. Women are never sexist against other women, ergo we are wrong and are truly and utterly defeated.
I’m also not sure what the point of “multi-cultural support” for Gamergate. It’s like having something being accused of being homophobic, and proving that it isn’t by getting support every minority group. It kinda doesn’t prove anything, because sadly, people don’t really practice intersectionality. Even when you get people who care about mistreatment of their own group, it doesn’t guarantee that they will care about another’s. Prominent case: TERFs.
JAL:
Honestly, that’s probably more than fair treatment. I am playing a little too much of the Good Cop tonight.
anteprepro
Yep. See also the women posting pictures holding up “I don’t need feminism because…” signs. And white feminists being so fucking racist to black feminists and calling for unity while ignoring their concerns.
@anteprepro
It’s also a terrible argument to raise if you are accusing your opponents of the using genetic fallacy, which is after all a fallacy of bringing up things that are irrelevant to the core of your argument. The presence of diverse individuals within a group must mean the group is pro-diversity? No-that doesn’t follow!
@mickll #194
Well, for starters, only one of them is a game journalist. That’s Mr. Grayson. The other who was of concern was Robin Arnott, what with him being a judge at a competition she participated in.
The others are . . . quite irrelevant I think, so I won’t name them. And it’s not because that the men aren’t criticized, both Nathan Grayson and Robin Arnott were, though not to the same extent, but because that’s not relevant with respect to the game industry.
But I’ll stop there, because what you’re talking about specifically is the Quinnspiracy, not GamerGate. They are related, but GamerGate was more about the aftermath of the Quinnspiracy, particularly the revelation that several writers of the game media had undisclosed conflict of interests, and as a backlash against the 11 or so articles released within 48 hours of each other casting gamers as misogynists, as white, as male, and what have you, and continued on with the seeming collusion of the game journalism media, as suspected and as revealed by the existence of GameJournoPros.
The heart of GamerGate lies there with that pivot. I may be missing some events, for which I would suggest you look at my sources in #106 for a more detailed understanding, or here:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/04/gamergate-a-closer-look-at-the-controversy-sweeping-video-games/
Erik Kain presents a more neutral look at things, though I don’t agree with all of his points, and I believe it to be an incomplete account, still I think it’s mostly fair.
Pretty much an controversial event seems to be termed _Gate. I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue by asking that. It is a reference to Watergate, but it’s not really directly applicable.
@mickll #201 @JAL#200 @antepro #198
Interesting, but no, that’s not why I brought it up. I’m bringing it up to point out the fact that JAL is making some massive assumptions on her part about who I am and what I stand for, and relating it to why a lot of people who otherwise wouldn’t have joined #GamerGate in fact did.
There appears to be a habit of mischaracterization. Please, if you feel that I’m being unclear about anything, do ask me to clarify, instead of assuming things that I don’t actually say.
ansatz @195:
Given the definition of ‘ad hominem’, can you explain how either of those-even if your initial perception were correct-would be such an attack? Being called mean names and insults is not an ad hominem attack. I’m failing to see what argument you made in both cases that was dismissed by attacking your character.
ansatz @195
I can’t answer those questions. I can however say that ansatz hangs out with misogynists, justifies his relationship with misogynists, and doesn’t care that misogyny is a major part of his precious GamerGate.
It’s directly applicable because if you are invoking a scandal then it’s helpful if you could point out specifically what that scandal is.
OK-if the Quinnspiracy isn’t Gamergate-then what is the scandal or event that Gamergate is referencing?
The Forbes article merely confirmed that Gamergate’s origins lie with the events surrounding Zoe Quinn’s alleged collusion with journalists and talent show judges and the alleged conspiracy to attack TFYC’s website, both of which have been thoroughly debunked.
So-what controversial “event” are Gamergater’s rallying around if not these? Who are the Gamergate “burglars”, what did they do and when did they do it?
ansatz:
Quibble much?
Also, this is a fascinating article:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/09/new-chat-logs-show-how-4chan-users-pushed-gamergate-into-the-national-spotlight/
It’s possible that the manufactured controversy is even more manufactured than I previously thought.
So Quinnspiracy leads to Gamergate but now we are supposed to think of Gamergate is completely unrelated to Quinnspiracy and completely ignore the fact that it was just another name for a bunch of slavering sexists making up a vast conspiracy in their heads? Maybe you should just let the other Gamergate folks know that they fucking suck at PR. If their movement was a business, they’d be out of business yesterday.
@mickll #206
There’s a section in there that’s titled: #GamerGate is Born
I’ve also included in my post a rough summation of what I think it was about. Is there a reason why you’re asking that question again without just addressing that?
@Al Dente #205
You can, but it wouldn’t be true. I don’t hang out with misogynists anymore than I hang out with racists just because there happens to be a few where I work, or a few where I go to the gym, or a few (ok like a lot) actually just living in the same country as me. I don’t justify my relationship with them, because I have none. And I do care that misogyny is a part of my ‘precious’ GamerGate, and I do my part to combat it.
You don’t see it here because combating misogyny is already a goal most everybody here ascribe to. I don’t post what I do in that respect because I don’t feel like there’s anything more I can contribute, it’d be like putting dumping a cup of water into the ocean. I feel like I can do some good on clarifying the mistaken beliefs held by many here that the GamerGate movement is defined by misogyny, and that the people in the GamerGate movement should be characterized as misogynists, because mistaken ideas should be illuminated.
The best case scenario? Hopefully gain some allies well experienced in combating misogyny to throw their weight for ethical standards in video game journalism to quickly achieve those standards, and work towards a better future everywhere else as well.
What’s more likely, in many of these debates, is just an entrenchment of battlelines. I hope to convince a few readers otherwise, but I don’t expect any.
ansatz
I only know what you write here and you’re painting a picture considering what you’re addressing, ignoring, content and word usage. The fact you’re spouting dudebro rhetoric is why I called you a dudebro. I call it how I see it, don’t like then maybe reflect on yourself more since clearly I’m not the only getting the same impression.
(I bet this’ll prompt finally coming out right with the Hivemind nonsense, ansatz has been flirting with. Prove me wrong, I’d love to see it.)
Except gaming is seen as a white boys club since women and POC face harassment and threats every time they critique gaming and are put down by others when gaming online, whether it’s MMORPGs or MOBAs or simply participating in threads about gaming. That’s why they have to carve out safe places. If gaming didn’t reflect society’s patriarchal and racist attitudes, that wouldn’t be necessary. It is what is. There are women and POC gamers (me and my roommate respectively) but it’s clear we have to accept the status quo or face the consequences for not playing the chill girl and oreo roles.
There’s plenty of women gamers but they’re underrepresented in every level of gaming and POC face the same issues. Don’t like it? Start changing gaming and its culture because the face and voice is that of a privileged white dude that doesn’t give a shit about others. That’s why it’s generalized because that’s the fucking problem. If that’s not you, then why be offended? Because those oppressed people magically make it all better like racists saying they have a black friend? Because you don’t see or care about the structural oppression? Because it’s easier to continue being a false martyr like Christians in America?
ansatz @203:
People are basing their characterization of you on the words you’re plastering across the screen. Many of us are accustomed to dealing with people who may intend one thing, but the effect of their words is another thing entirely.
If you (general you) say you support marriage equality, but vote Republican, then you’re voting against marriage equality.
If you say you support women’s reproductive rights, but claim a fetus should have a right to life, you don’t support women’s rights.
If you say you oppose racism, but talk about the scourge of black on black violence, you’re indulging in the racism that you say you oppose.
Likewise, JAL calling you a dudebro is likely due to the fact that you’re defending GamerGate. From where I sit, you’re defending the actions of the misogynistic gaming crowd by claiming that GamerGate is not about misogyny. That’s something a dudebro would do. As a result, I think JAL is correct to call you a dudebro. Additionally, I don’t believe referring to you as a dudebro has anything to do with your use of Oppression Olympics. JAL was calling you out for using the phrase incorrectly, indepedent of you status as a dudebro.
ansatz @209:
You’ve completely failed at that. Perhaps you ought to examine why that’s the case.
#212 Tony! The Queer Shoop
For instance, ignoring my points about his “but what about the menz” list, using Oppression Olympics incorrectly (which you’re #211 is spot-on btw), ignoring my points on sexism, the fact that I’m a gamer and my experience with their movement. And ignoring the fact I’ve pointed out this pointed silence on these topics fucking repeatedly.
Way to prove your movement isn’t sexist, ansatz! *snort*
Honestly, for all the verbiage, I still don’t know what GamerGate is actually supposed to be anything but a laughing stock. There are three key things they allegedly exist as a response to: The Quinnspiracy, An alleged conspiracy of mischaracterizing Gamergate and saying Gamers Are Over, and then concerns about gaming journalist integrity and conflicts of interest . So we have two completely asinine and baseless nontroversies, plus a non-controversial issue that might as well be rallying about liking ice cream. That just happens to share the same banner as the nontroversies. And then there is the admitted flood of right-wing antifeminists from Breitbart, which they blame the current problems on, while also acknowledging the ridiculous and sexist fucking ORIGIN.
How fucking hard is it to concern yourself about gaming corruption while distancing yourself from the fuckers who were working themselves into fits over an imagined controversy involving a woman daring to have sex? The fact that you won’t and continue to pretend that isn’t feasible or isn’t worth it to you is in fact part of the fucking problem.
This Cracked article pretty much mocked all of ansatz’s bullshit a week or two in advance of their writing it. Impressive feat:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-ways-gamergate-debate-has-made-world-worse_p2/
Gamergate: Like if Watergate involved an angry mob trashing Nixon’s house, finding nothing, and then saying “well, this was always about political corruption IN GENERAL, so we still have a very good point” and then strolling along on their merry way.
Ansatz!
A special explanation, because you appear to be as dense as a black hole. Stop using ad hom. The name of the fallacy is Argumentum Ad Hominem.
Argumentum Ad Hominem would be: You are an asshole, therefor your argument is wrong.
Not an Argumentum Ad Hominem: These are the specific reasons you are wrong, and you’re an asshole.
@JAL #210
Perhaps you should revise that strategy, because I can only say that so far, you have a pretty abysmal batting average with respect to me.
Hivemind? No, just a group of people who share similar thoughts.
I agree with most of everything here. Gaming, much like everything else, is a reflection of our culture. It’s been slowly changing for the better, but well it’s not quite there yet.
It’s pretty much the same in academia as well, and it is a serious issue that we should address.
Now, where I don’t agree, is here:
I’d argue that no, from what GamerGate has shown me, the face and voice of gaming and its culture is not the privilege white dude who doesn’t give a sh-t about others. There has been enough significant advances in gaming that this is no longer true.
Gaming is a worldwide phenomena, and that’s exactly the problem with generalizing gamers and the gaming culture, and that’s exactly why #notyourshield is so important. Not as a shield (pun intended), but as a face for the journalists and gamers like you and I, for us to see that gaming is diverse, and for us to realize that generalizing gamers as white dudes is not the correct way to go.
If you look at the twitter posts under the #notyourshield tag, you’d see females and POC being shamed and accused of internalizing hatred, if they are believed to be who they claim they are, by the very people who claim the mantle of social justice.
And that’s the crazy thing! If we’re to be about social justice, that sh-t shouldn’t fly! Whereas the ethical standards aspect of GamerGate logically compels me, #notyourshield is the one that really gets me mad.
We should know better, but d-
Nevermind, sorry, I was going to go on a tirade. Anyways, I’ll address your last point:
Because I do care about all of that, just like you do. Because I care about all of that, and it seems about one more thing. Because even though I care about all that, because I care about that one more thing, I am consistently being characterized as not caring about all of that.
And if it was just me, then I’d probably not say anything. Like I said, I’m an atheist. I’m quite familiar with being outnumbered and falsely attributed things I don’t believe. That and personal experience with keeping my head down. But it’s not just me. It’s the people in #notyourshield. It’s the overwhelmingly left-leaning gaming audience in GamerGate, who’ve been cast aside by the media that they traditionally support. It’s the mischaracterization of us all that compels me to try and correct the misconception.
I constantly despair that I’m getting nowhere on that front though.
Anyways, thanks for reading. I feel much better having written this post than I did the other. Oh, and thanks for explaining why my post wouldn’t go through. That was so very annoying!
Ansatz the Dudebro,
First rule of holes. When in over your head, stop digging. You were in over your head from your first post. Stop digging, but dudebros simply can’t behave rationally. If you aren’t a dudebro, you should be able to stop digging, and fade away.
Still not seeing why Gamergate should be a thing.
Also, beginning to see the irony of the name “Not Your Shield”. Sure as shit is being used as a shield for Gamergate, ain’t it?
@Iyeska #216
Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me, but I’m afraid you’d better your time doing something else. As you can see from #195, after a careful review of the two posts that I thought engaged in that fallacy, well it turns out that I was mistaken.
One was just an insult, the other was quite relevant.
The nuance of this irrelevant fallacy, I try to keep in mind, but sometimes a first reading do lead to misinterpretation.
@antepro #214
How hard is it? Quite easy actually. In fact, that’s what I’m doing. It’s the people who oppose #GamerGate that are attempting to paint a misogynistic coat over the entire movement.
Let me ask you this, how hard is it to separate the misogynists in #GamerGate from those who are legitimately concerned about ethical standards in video game journalism? To address those two groups separately, even if both claim the same name?
From what you’ve been telling me, I get the feeling that you think this task is particularly difficult or perhaps even impossible. I think otherwise.
anteprepro (#198)
And what “multi-cultural support” anyway? White people in digital blackface don’t count.
~*~*~*~*~*~
@mickll
Off topic, but if you like writing with em-dashes—that is, long dashes like these—you can type three regular dashes in a row and wordpress will automatically convert them to a single em-dash.
ansatz:
Yeah, that’s kind of what I expected from you. It’s asshole revisionism and denialism all the way down.
Fuck off.
@ ansatz
Yeah, I read that section it reads;
But then goes on to say;
Which makes the claim that this isn’t really about Zoe Quinn downright weird as covered in the Ars Technica piece “Chat logs show how 4chan users created #GamerGate controversy”
So…Baldwin creates a hashtag, GamerGate – specifically referencing criticism of Quinn and Sarkeesian and specifically referencing the Burgers and Fries thing, but you claim that the Forbes article shows that this demonstrates that GamerGate is a completely separate phenomenon to the Quinnspiracy!
How?
@ A. Noyd
Cheers.
Hortan @86
Eccles? Bluebottle? Neddie? Grytpype-Thynne?
/shows age
#219 ansatz
HA! Pray tell: has the misogyny gone down in games? Are women finally getting dressed appropriately instead of sexualized all the time? Are their games with a woman or black protagonist that more honestly reflect the player base? Are there more women and POC in games besides the token or used for the white male gaze? Has Anita’s harassers and their defenders stopped suddenly?
What significant advances? We’re just barely getting women to break through into the industry and culture, ffs. What happened to it’s “slowly changing” from mere sentences ago? Do you even listen to yourself?
Fine, it’s just set up and running like society at large is: representation is dominated by white males and caters to their privledged view with social justice minded gamers being punished for speaking out. What’s the short hand for that? Oh, right. I explained this already, you know the part before the “because” in that quote? Try fucking addressing that except that means admitting things you don’t want to. You separate the two as if I think there are no gamers that are non-white and non-male.
If that’s not what gaming culture is generally then why do white males dominate everywhere and refuse to give others space so they have to carve out their own?
I’m guessing you have a problem with Anita’s critiques as well?
Yeah, I don’t care if other women don’t feel oppressed by society or there are POC happy with the way things are, that doesn’t negate the need for social justice or make me stop. And looking at those tweets, that’s what it is: an argument to stop. Just like “I don’t need feminism because…” and other such campaigns.
I don’t know what they were told, but I wouldn’t hesitate to point out that just because you’re a woman doesn’t make your anti-feminist right and being a woman isn’t the reason my feminism is right. I wouldn’t call someone an Uncle Tom because I’m white and that makes me uncomfortable but I haven’t seen anything under the tag that justifies this “SJW’s are out to get me for my beliefs and shame me for being a woman/black” nonsense that’s being used to bolster GamerGate and 4chan.
You’re welcome.
————————-
Now I’m going to go drink and game because that’s a hell of a lot better than dealing with gamers.
Let me know if ansatz responds to their blind spot, otherwise I think I really am done. I’ve been fighting my own culture my whole life, I’m really tired of fighting my sub-cultures too.
Hey ansatz!
Instead of trying to explain how GamerGate is totes not about harassment and that #notyourshield isnt about weaponised minorities who provide cover for white misogynists, how about you read the actual burgersandfries irc logs which show how this shit actually went down from the people who orchestrated it, all neatly layed out in a storify.
Once you’re done reading those, come back and tell us how wrong you were or you can continue to be a cover for misogynists and harassers.
Oh, and if you have any talking points from Milo Yiannopoulos, you should probably take anything he or the company he is associated with, Breitbart.com, with a giant mountain of salt. They are known as liars, bullshitters, and conmen willing to make up anything to make the people they hate look bad. They are responsible for a number of hoaxes and manufactured controversies like the one in 2009 about ACORN.
@ ansatz
Really? You still don’t get it. You are one dense sexist asshole.
You might hypothetically be right about how gamergate started, and even what the “core” group in that effort is. I have no idea because I have yet to investigate it and I simply don’t need to. None of that matters. As long as women in the gaming industry, reporting on it, or tangentially involved in it in any way are getting death threats, harassment, or any other violent, sexist, or misogynistic treatment I don’t give a fuck about corruption in gaming journalism.
As long as someone is getting attacked, treated differently because they are a women and any combination of similar factors fuck your opinion. I have no problem believing that these people are associated with you.
Because you clearly care more about gaming journalism than someone getting harassed, threatened with death, and and enduring waves of misogynistic treatment. So much so that you have to come over here and do everything you can to shift the subject from a person in pain being discriminated against. Your priorities are clear. You have to shove that pathetic little margin around to create doubt about things rather than help another human being. That is why you look sexist to this white male gamer. You put something as pathetic as video game journalism above fixing an environment where 50% of the planets population have to fear this sort of treatment.
Fuck everyone like you.
It amazes me that, despite the obvious evidence that ansatz’s precious GamerGate is just chock full of misogyny, he still pretends it’s about “corruption.” As Brony says @228:
For some reason ansatz thinks we’re as dumb as he is. We see obvious, rampant, in-your-face rape and death threats aimed at women and we label this behavior for what it is: misogyny. ansatz keeps trying to bullshit us into thinking that’s a tiny minority of GameGaters and most of his dudebros are, despite all evidence, not misogynist at all.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
ansatz:
It’s pretty hard actually. I’d say about a 38. Yeah, that seems about right. The hilarious thing is that it’s just a microcosm of the whole fucking problem with gaming culture! All these years, gaming culture has been completely tolerant of misogyny and sexism. People like you don’t actually care about it. It doesn’t directly affect you, and hey, they make sure your likes are pandered to. So you tolerate it. Until people point out the misogyny! Then it suddenly starts to affect you. But of course you don’t actually want to get rid of it. It’s useful. You just don’t want people to associate you with this crap you’ve tolerated all this time.
It’s the same with GamerGate. You use the loudness of the misogyny for attention to your cause, so of course you have no problem tolerating it. Yet you still don’t want to be associated with it.
If you don’t want to be associated with misogyny, then how about putting your effort into getting the misogynists out of gaming? Try to change gaming culture. If you really want to be separated from the misogynists… Then separate yourself from the misogynists! If you want your cause of journalistic integrity to actually be heard, break apart from gamergate and do it.
TL:DR If you don’t want people to say you stink, stop rolling around in shit.
Ansatz. I play world of warcraft. I would LOVE to be in a raiding guild, but none of my friends play anymore.
Do you know why I’m not in a raiding guild? Do you know, in fact, why NONE of my characters are in a guild that isn’t occupied solely by me?
Because I got fucking tired of being told “show us your tits!” whenever I’d get on vent the first time. I’d see lots of comments in guild chat (and hell, you see it in gen and trade as well) that are homophobic, racist, or highly sexist in nature. This has been the case horde side and alliance, low and high population. It’s damn well bloody universal. And if you try to call someone on it, you get fucking dogpiled with the nastiest commentary.
So despite what you want to claim, the sexist dudebro IS THE FACE OF GAMING. That you don’t like that doesn’t mean you can hand wave it away. It’s there, plastering its testicles all over the monitor going ‘lulz’.
Wow, I go away for Gay Day at Disneyland and everyone just does a grand old job of spanking the willfully ignorant little troll.
Kris Straub had you guys pegged: https://twitter.com/krisstraub/status/518239468260560896
OK, this ansatz person has 18 copies of the very same long-ass comment clogging up the spam queue…and a bunch of them have little notes at the beginning saying, “this doesn’t seem to be going through…”. I hate that. I can understand trying maybe once more, but sitting there doing it over & over is obsessive and stupid, and worse, the anti-spam software sees someone repetitively reposting the same thing, and what does it sensibly do? IT FLAGS YOU AS A SPAMMER. Jeez. Stop it.
#232: back in the day when I played wow, I experienced something similar. I played on a server well known for hosting gay guilds, so whenever I joined any cross-server groups, I’d get called the Proudmoore fag, and other less pleasant names. What do you do? Explain that I’m not gay? That’s not the point.
I ended up just having a personal policy of immediately dropping from the group if the gay slurs started flying. No warning, just zoom, I’m gone. Which meant I was pretty much unable to do any cross-server pugs.
Fortunately, I was in a guild that was progressive about those kinds of things, and also coincidentally was about 40/60 women/men. The widespread sexist/homophobic attitude in the community was still one factor in my eventual abandonment of the whole game. Not much point to an MMO if the “multiple” only means multiple dumbass 17 year old boys.
PZ @ 234
This reminded me of something tangentially related. There is a Minecraft streamer I watch on Twitch, Wyld, who usually refers to his wife as his partner because, as he puts it, they consider each other equal partners in life, etc. Well, it never fails, every time he says “my partner,” some newcomer to the broadcast can be counted upon to ask if Wyld is gay because people are used to “partner” being reserved for gay couples because obviously saying “his husband” or “her wife” is icky. Fortunately, in this case it never descends into the flinging of slurs because Wyld has cultivated a community which doesn’t tolerate these kinds of things, but still.
Because it was.
I’s all there on #burgersandfries.
It’s all there on #notyourshield, a tag that, from the start, has been spammed with sockpuppets pretending to be bad stereotypes of minorities.
It’s there on the people who have latched on to your “movement” – known antifeminists, conspiracy theorists, professional liars and even religious woman-haters have been clapping at you like the good cronies you are.
It’s in the “accomplishments” of your movement – driving
It’s in the blatant problem of sexism within video games and gamer culture that gamers fail to address, and react with apopletic rage when it’s pointed out to them – see the ongoing Anita Sarkeesian debacle. And no, before you think about saying it, attempting to critique video games is not an attack on you or on gaming itself. She’s not a “fake gamer”, because you don’t get to own gaming and decide who’s in or not.
(have to cut off to vote for president, see you)
I have to wonder, as a gamer who is concerned about corruption within the gaming industry and media, am I still an outsider because I post on and read FTB? Or is it just because I refuse to associate myself with bigoted movements that I’m an outsider? Interestingly, I’m also concerned about the ways in which men (though usually not directly because they are men) face discrimination in the world, yet I don’t identify as an MRA, because that movement is dominated by misogyny, homophobia and racism. (Reminds me of another recent movement. Can’t quite place it. Hmmmm……….)
Vaguely on that topic, I really love the #notyourshield hashtag, because it really is an excellent example of how reactionary movements are appropriating the language of social justice movements while railing against social justice movements. You know what you’re doing when you act to support a virulently misogynistic movement by arguing that not all members of it are virulently misogynistic? You are acting as a shield. You are their shield.
The reasonable gamers who legitimately care about corruption in gaming are acting as a shield for those who only want to hurl abuse at women, and in allying themselves with that movement rather than splintering off to make one that actually concentrates on the real issues, they are only hurting their cause as no amount of misogyny will make gaming media less corrupt, but it will make those concerns very, very easy to dismiss. Yes, you’re right, that is a fallacy, it’s irrational, but we are an irrational species, and failing to recognise that will not do you any favours. In supporting #gamergate, rather than standing apart from them and forming a rational and reasonable movement that will not excuse bigotry within its ranks, you are only harming your cause.
ansatz @218:
I scoff at thy ignorance.
In this, gaming and comics have a similar problem: a segment of both groups is composed of white men. Many of these white men are quite vocal in disapproving of diversity. Both gaming and comics were made by and consumed by white males for so long that they are often still considered for white males. Yes, this is changing, but a lot of white men are whining, moaning, and starting GamerGates in opposition. They don’t want to see women, PoC, and LGBT people involved in their stuff. They don’t want to see women, PoC, or LGBT characters in their comics or games (when I refer to their opposition to women in comics, I’m referring to the fact that dudebros oppose efforts to treat women better in comics, which is surprisingly exactly the same problem facing the gaming industry; they also don’t want to see women in their spaces whether it’s a comic book store or a comic book convention…when they do, they often do not treat them respectfully). They want the world to cater to them and their tastes. When efforts are made to diversify and improve the portrayal of oppressed people, these shitnuggets become vocal in their opposition and launch campaigns to silence efforts at diversity or criticism (in gaming, see Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian; in comics see Janelle Asselin who received rape threats for criticizing the cover to Teen Titans #1)
@222:
The face of GamerGate has been a bunch of whiny dudebro misogynistic shitstains, not these people concerned about ethics. It’s rather hard to focus on this group that you so desperately want to make GamerGate all about when they aren’t the public face of GamerGate.
As we’ve asked, where are they? What are they doing? Are their actions somehow different from the *other* people who were focused on the ethics in gaming, but who used that as a shield to attack Zoe Quinn?
I highly doubt that Ansatz is arguing in good faith. I know how the *chans operate, and I recognize an attempt at ‘psyops’ when I see one. Ansatz is spending all this time and effort trying to legitimise the illegitimate, but the truth is simple: “GamerGate” started as personal attacks against Zoe Quinn, with a side-dish of hatred for Anita Sarkeesian. The “journalistic integrity” line was a calculated PR move, meant to disguise the beastial hatred on display as a well-meaning movement.
Ansatz is asking us to judge GamerGate based on what they say, rather than how they act, but an honest person would recognize that any group can claim noble goals, even if their actual actions are downright dispicible. Groups have to be judged on works instead of words, because words can lie. Tell us, where is the high-profile part of GamerGate which is actually doing something about ‘corruption?’ Why are the largest and most well-organized actions coming out of this ‘movement’ coordinated attacks on a single individual, rather than any form of constructive action?
@Tony, 238
They’re the ones who haven’t managed to get anything done to further their own concerns, and the ones who will continue to fail to get anything done as long as they fall in with that movement.
@PZ Myers #234
Very sorry, I was attempting to post a pretty long message without any idea as to why it wasn’t going through. I thought it was a technical problem, so tried every few minutes when I had the time, since the last part actually had a lot of stuff people were complaining that I wasn’t addressing.
It wasn’t meant to be malicious on my part, and since it wasn’t actually going through, I thought there would be no harm done.
JAL kindly informed me as to what the problem was though, some sort of new filter for a certain word that I quoted of hers, so hopefully it shouldn’t happen again.
@Athywren #240 @Demeisen #239
These two comments are very very interesting.
Are you aware of the revised code of ethics a couple of sites have posted as a response to GamerGate? The Escapist and Destructoid, for two?
Are you aware of the recent Intel ad pull on Gamasutra? Are you aware of the organized mailing campaign towards advertisers that led to that pull? Or do you believe these to be nothing, and that they constitute nothing happening?
Are you aware of the mass boycott of the various outlets that’s been organized?
Are you aware of the two successful funding drive made in GamerGate’s name? I’ve mentioned them in my post, well the one that’s in pastebin since it contained a word that was caught in the spam filter. One was for a feminist cause (I suspect TFYC well be labeled as anti-feminist though), the other for suicide prevention and depression. Perhaps you’ll just say that they were only donating out of spite . . . which is a bit funny, considering what we had here on Pharyngula recently.
These are just some of the results that the consumer revolt which constitute GamerGate have accomplished. If you are indeed aware of all of these, and the rest, yet still think that they haven’t achieved anything, then I don’t believe anything will convince you otherwise.
@Tony #238
As for the question of who are they? They are the people on The Escapist. They are the majority of the user on Twitter. How are they different?
Well, they haven’t used ethics in gaming as a shield to focus on Zoe Quinn. They have focused on the advertisers, they have focused on the media outlets, they have focused on places where they would be able to enact changes. They have consistently called out harassment on both sides, they have policed their own, and I’ve mentioned all of this before, so why is it that I’m mentioning it again?
Well, if you only look at the terrible posts, I’ll guarantee that the only posts you’ll see are terrible ones. This is the information bubble that I hope some of you will escape. I am aware of the examples you’ve mentioned. Let me suggest to you that it might not be my ignorance, but my knowledge of the people who are not what you have posted, that’s causing my disagreement with your conclusion.
A lot of people here have cited X, as if I claim that X doesn’t exist. I am aware that X exists. I don’t like X. But I am also aware of Y. And Y is good. Y is a lot more than X. The responses here have been to question the existence of Y. Where are the Y? What have the Y done?
Good question. Why is it that I talk about Y, but you don’t? Am I just delusional about Y?
Possibly. I might be wrong on Y. I want to suggest, however, that you might be wrong on Y.
The reason for our disagreement needn’t be anything malicious. I don’t need to be a raging misogynist or a hostile sexist or a lurking racist to disagree with you. I’m not trying to trick you into anything. I’m not trying to gotcha you. It is, in fact, possible to see the terrible harassment Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian have faced, yet still be able to realize that there’s a significant and representative majority of the people in the GamerGate movement who have done nothing to harass them, other than apparently being part of the GamerGate movement itself. It is, in fact, possible to condemn and oppose the misogyny and sexism present within GamerGate yet still move with it for its actual goals. It is, in fact, possible to do this and still care about misogyny, still fight against misogyny, rather than as some have suggest. It is, in fact, possible to not be a dupe to disagree with the prevailing us or them, black or white attitude on Pharyngula.
The GamerGate movement have been homogenized to be a misogynistic movement, and that’s just not right.
Yawn, True Believer™ spewing the same old lies, like repetition makes for truth. It doesn’t. We look at evidence you don’t dare cite, and we believe it, not you. Which is why your attempts at us having to take your word and “evidencde” for it aren’t and won’t get anywhere.
Either supply something new, or fade into the bandwidth. You have had your say.
If you can’t stop repeating yourself you can be banned. It is also aggressive, not assertive, to do so.
@Demeisen #239
The only way I can convince you that I am acting on good faith is time, since any posts I make you can easily fit within the framework of a psyops or what have you, so I hope you’ll see that fact eventually. Such is the downside of online discussions.
And no, Demeisen, I’m not asking you to judge GamerGate on what they say, rather than how they act. I’m asking you to realize that you’ve only been looking at the terrible actors, and so see only the terrible actors. Any messages to the contrary, you dismiss out of hand or glaze over.
And like in any group, there will always be terrible actors, just that in some group, these terrible actors represent the group, and in others, they don’t. I have been presenting arguments to suggest that perhaps GamerGate belong to the latter group and not the former.
I have been clear on this, I believe.
@ansatz, 241
So you’re citing a campaign to pull advertising from a site for posting an opinion piece critical of the misogyny in the gamergate movement as an example of the members of the movement who aren’t raving misogynists getting something done? Well, you sure are making that sound like a positive force with which to involve yourself! Excellent work! Go team not-misogynists! (Sarcasm… in case you missed it.)
I’ll grant you the point about sites like Destructoid and Escapist, though. I was not aware that they had updated their disclosure policies. As this was clearly the work of people like yourself, and cannot possibly have been simple ass-covering so that they can quickly debunk the accusations of corruption if/when they are brigaded by your friends for hosting views they don’t like, you may now pat yourself on the back, and the rampant misogyny that you are supporting no longer matters. Have a cookie. (Also some sarcasm.)
ansatz wrote:
Yeah, except #notyourshield is astroturf. 4chan and other parties are creating new twitter accounts with pictures lifted from other sources just to post to that hashtag. But don’t believe me. I’m just going by their IRC logs. I don’t doubt that there are some actual women and visible minorities posting to that, but it’s pretty tainted by its origins, too.
@ck (#245)
It’s absolutely hilarious that ansatz thinks citing #notyourshield adds to the credibility of his little revisionism play considering so many people had figured out it was bogus well before Quinn dropped the logs proving that into the fray.
So, for Ansatz and the other not_all_gaters;
If this is supposed to be an important discussion about rampant corruption in game journalism, then;
Start a new discussion. If it is that important, and that interesting, then you don’t need to ride the coat-tails of a discredited tag.
Talk about the other examples. It’s “rampant,” right? So you can have plenty of material to illustrate the points even if you take Zoe Quinn and everyone else even mentioned by Gamergate right off the table.
But, really. Game journalism is incestuous and corrupt? I also heard water is wet. Have they looked at the typical coverage for AAA games? It’s an industry-run echo chamber in there. Even on Gamasutra, it is rare to see a game described as, “A plodding, derivative copy of better games, based on old failed mechanics, and saddled with a registration system that includes a hidden root kit that scrambled at least one player’s hard drive.”
@ansatz
Just in case you’re thinking that my second paragraph in #244 is a blanket refusal to consider that anything good has happened because of actual attempts on the part of people who identify with #GamerGate, it’s not.
I’m perfectly willing to believe, if I see evidence of it, that there was an actual attempt from within your community to get such transparency policies made, but… here’s the thing: If I was president of a small nation in a region that was beset by barbarians who had started accusing people they had grudges against of rustling their sheep before rushing in to sack villages and cities, I would make damned sure that the UN knew that I had precisely zero sheep, rustled or otherwise. The fact that a couple of deluded fools in the barbarian camps actually believed that sheep rustling was the motivation for the attacks would have very little influence on that decision. I would simply want to know that I could say to the international community, “hey, their accusations are baseless, help us,” and reliably expect to be helped.
ansatz:
You do realize that in this thread, there have been multiple links to substantiate the claims that the core of GamerGate has been about misogyny, no? Yet here you continue on asserting things, without even a shred of evidence, let alone the substantial amount of evidence needed to prove your assertions. You sure do seem to have a lot invested in denying reality.
ansatz @241:
Even if this is true, these people are not the face of GamerGate
Not anti-feminist, but not actually a charity. TFYC is a for-profit with ties to a specific gaming company, chosen because they were hiring women and actual feminist charities wouldn’t touch GamerGaters’ money with a thirty-two and a half foot pole.
These “terrible actors” founded your group with the explicit purpose of couching their bigotry in a palatable-sounding cause.
@ Athywren 237
I think that it’s reasonable to be concerned with both gaming journalism and the way that men face discrimination. I’m a white male gamer and I can see lots of areas that need addressing myself. But in my experience (your might be different and that matters) the problem is how the problems get brought up relative to specific situations.
My problem with gamergate and people like ansatz is that their behavior functionally acts as a distraction tactic from more important things, or equally important things. Additionally their behavior indicates a greater concern for the less important thing.
The gamergate situation is where the more important thing is being distracted from. Harassment and abuse of women that “step out of line” socially speaking is simply more important than the quality of gaming journalism. Like it or not the work “gamergate” has been socially objectified and there is a social tug of war going on. The “gamergaters” are like it or not is literally trying to push attention away from women and what they are facing which is the more important issue. The reasons don’t matter, that is what they are doing. If someone wants a piece of evidence supporting that assertion I would point to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Personal suffering attached to gendered abuse and harassment is a greater human emotional priority than the trustworthiness and quality of gaming journalism. The proper thing to do is for the decent gamergaters to yeild the label and choose a new one to rally around for their purposes so they can avoid doing things that are literally terrible. I would call the functional minimization and distraction from awareness of gendered abuse and harassment a very terrible thing.
The issue of places where men face discrimination (the equally important thing) has similar behavior that I find utterly abhorrent. Rather than working with feminists who have a history of getting attention for their issues on their own merits, I see many men deliberately go to posts, articles and videos talking about women’s problems and simply trying to distract from women’s issues. They are literally trying to change the subject and draw attention from the suffering of another human being. I don’t tolerate that sort of thing. Functionally they are not trying to help men in that context, they are opposing women. Their dislike of women trying to solve their problems is literally greater than their desire to solve men’s problems. It’s bad for women, it’s bad for men, it’s bad for me. Fuck that.
In my #253 “Like it or not the work “gamergate” has been socially objectified and there is a social tug of war going on.”
…should read “Like it or not the word “gamergate” has been socially objectified and there is a social tug of war going on.”
What I don’t honestly understand is, why does anyone have to, “change” the poll? It’s just invalidating the whole thing for everyone. Who cares if there is a legit thought that a larger amount of people think it’s about corruption? They are not going to suddenly stop thinking that because I don’t think that is the case. If it’s about image, why is that a thing too? Is it that threatening that people think something different then me or you? This freaks me the hell out that ya all are so worried about opinion not being the way you think everyone should think it is .
Rowen @232 and PZ @234
You both have my sympathies for going through that kind of crap. I’ve been pretty lucky in guilds, but then again as a White Male Gamer I’ve no idea how bad the ones I’ve been in actually are.
Mike cun @255
Go reread the first part of the thread when everyone was giving responses to Jeff S when they ran with the same line of reasoning.
Is someone trying to be cute with their nym @255?
See our priorities are different. It freaks me the hell out that there is a vocal contingent of gamers who think it’s ok to make rape and death threats towards women. You clearly know nothing of social justice movements. If you did, you’d realize one of things people attempt to do is persuade people to not have harmful opinions like a great many people involved in GamerGate do. But I guess since it doesn’t harm you, you don’t give a rat’s ass.
Feel free to drop kick yourself out of here.
mike cun @ 255:
Congratulations, you’ve completely missed the point! Mike, scroll up, re-read the OP, then starting with #1, read every single comment. This will help you to understand the actual point.
Tony:
I am so relieved I wasn’t the only one who had that cynical thought.
mike cun @ 255
Was the ‘nym Mike Hunt taken?
Seven of Mine:
Mike Berk must have also been taken, Along with Mike Scunthorpe. If that is Mike’s real name, they have my sympathies.
Seven of Mine:
Mike Berk must have also been taken. If that is Mike’s real name, they have my sympathies.
@Brony, 253
Fair points made, but could I just say for the sake of clarity that the quote you replied to was actually aimed at ansatz’ comment at #168
Rather than asking if I was considered an outsider here, despite being a long term (if fairly sparse) commenter here, because of being a gamer, I was asking if I was considered an outsider to ansatz, despite sharing the concerns that he claims are central to #GG, because of my presence here.
I probably should’ve quoted it at the time, but, when I started writing, I wasn’t sure where the quote was and didn’t remember the wording well enough to ctrl-f-ify it. Still, I should’ve at least made it clear who I was responding to, sorry about that.
Another thread on #gamergate — sorry, ansatz and your fellow travelers, we see right through your ploy.
@ Athywren
My apologies. Intent and I have a complicated relationship so don’t think it was your fault necessarily.
I did not see it as hostile even in the wrong context so I hope the points were as useful as I intended.
#244 Athywren
Don’t get too excited about the Escapist though. They may have changed their policy but their forum threads on #GamerGate is still full of sexists and asshats. For instance on the first page ansatz linked there’s this comment:
Plus they have a list of links for other places where they congregate, including burgersandfries still on 8chan.
There’s this recommended article: Breitbart – Feminist Bullies Tearing the Video Game Industry Apart, which states (among along problematic things, like saying the allegations against Quinn are true):
There’s the operation Disrespectful nod from their GitLab page (also linked) where they have a list of articles to attack, including The death of the “gamers” and the women who “killed” them – Casey Johnson, and basically all of them are calling out the misogynists. If they aren’t, why are they attacking those that fight the misogynist?
That’s ansatz proud non-sexist portion of #GamerGate? *snort* Fuck them all, the fuckers.
@JAL, 266
I wasn’t getting exciting about it… I’m getting far too tired of humanity to do that. I was simply granting that it was a thing that happened and that I was able to find some evidence for it, nothing about the actual quality of it – I didn’t look far enough to verify that. I can’t say I expected it to be a sign of positive change away from misogynistic bullshit among gamers.
I have different tactics for different situations, but a black friend of mine from an MMO told me his solution, which I thought was pretty wise and has become a sort of WWJD thing for me. He would just say over voice chat, following whatever racist comment that was directed at him, something like “Ok, I’ll see you later then X and Y.” X and Y being people he was friends with in the group, if there were people he knew there. And then he’d drop.
The point being that it would be obvious to everyone why he was leaving. No room for wondering if there was a disconnect or “real life” intrusion. His attitude was basically say whatever shitty thing you like, but don’t expect me to help you and pretend to think it’s funny. I wish I could be that calm and collected about it.
@Ieni That is a brilliant solution your friend was able to arrive at.
I like that ansatz has completely ignored the lived experiences of myself and P.Z. when it comes to a major source of gamers. Much easier to ignore a cesspit of millions of people than accept that they exist and that many of them are racist, misogynistic asshats, right?
I really find it amusing to mention this as though it’s evidence of GamerGate doing something good. This was motivated explicitly and entirely by anti-feminist rage at an article on GamaSutra written by a women (which, as I recall, was entirely about the misogyny behind GamerGate). Ethics was never even a part of the demand to pull ads from Gamasutra.
Having read the very same Escapist threads and Twitter hashtags ansatz claims to have done, I can’t see how one can possibly conclude anything other than “it’s about misogyny”. I’ve been contemptuous of game journalism since Jeff Gerstmann was fired in 2007 for giving a bad game a bad review; it’s rather curious that none of these people even cared until a woman did something they see as unforgivably evil.
Incidentally, last time I checked #NotYourShield, a solid majority of the accounts posting in it were created within a few days, usually a few hours, of posting, and had no other tweets. But sure, the hashtag is proof that gaming no longer has a serious problem with non-white males, and it’s unfair to characterize gaming as white male dominated. Also, the Klan isn’t racist because they helped repave a few streets in sundown towns.
@ shockna
Precisely. If the Gamergate and Notyourshield “movements” could be summed up in a single phrase that phrase would be “Shut Up Bitch” which makes their whinging about censorship all the more laughable.
They are movements in the same sense that the Slymepit is, a collection of angry, bitter, spiteful people brought together by fear and loathing!
@Ansatz #243:
The group you have joined was started by ‘bad actors,’ consists mainly of ‘bad actors’, and is still led by ‘bad actors.’ There is ample evidence to show that the talk of ‘journalistic integrity’ was in fact devised by those same ‘bad actors’ as cover for their ‘bad actions,’ yet you ask us to believe you about the ultimate goal of this purported ‘movement.’ Even if you aren’t a deliberate ‘psyops agent’ — and that’s an almost infinitesimally small possibility — you have still fallen for deliberate propaganda and cannot see it.
Current results in the poll the OP is about:
Fighting corruption: 73% (down from the 4 Oct figure of 74%)
Misogyny: 22% (up from the 4 Oct figure of 21%)
Whiny man-babies: 3% (unchanged from 4 Oct figure)
Honestly you guys are still doing #GamerGate?: 2% (unchanged from 4 Oct figure)
In unrelated news, deleting mirror.co.uk cookies—or not accepting those cookies at all in the first place—allows one to vote in the poll as many times as one cares to.