She wrote to me to explain that some of the speculation going around about her assault by Shermer was incorrect, and gave me permission to post her clarifications.
It wasn’t actually the next day that I left Shermer’s room. The entire amount of time that passed between me asking someone to come get me after leaving the party and me calling again to say please come get me I need help and don’t know where I am was around two hours. Some commenters seem to think that I had some kind of morning after regret or something, but in actual fact I was calling it rape immediately.
The other part is – me asking Shermer to be on that panel for the Sex workshop wasn’t a reaction based upon victimization (like, it wasn’t that I was pushing aside how I felt about him in order to accomplish something; and I wasn’t in denial).
It was incredibly calculated – because I knew for an absolute fact that his views on consent were different from the other panelists. I had a rape crisis counselor on the panel as well, and I was hoping, as the moderator, to steer the conversation over to date rape. I wasn’t going to ‘Gotcha’ him or mention what happened or anything – I just honestly believed that he could stand to have that debate with someone, and maybe learn a thing or two. That’s why I was nice in the e-mail – I didn’t want him to put together what I was doing. I actually laughed when I saw that he was using that e-mail as evidence, because I so carefully crafted it to not sound like I was up to anything. It’s actually proof OF what happened – not against it – and for a brief, wild moment I found that funny.
For other things, there were some other points that for whatever reason never made it into the Buzzfeed article (which confuses me, because this was all heavily evidenced and people were willing to come forward):
The person who was on the phone both before and after was willing to be quoted on the two hour timeline.
Another woman who was at the party was willing to be quoted about my behavior leaving the party – that I was babbling to myself incoherently, and very obviously drunk out of my mind.
And then the same person who was willing to be quoted about the timeline was also willing to be quoted about the next part – that after he found me in the elevator when I was crying, he took me to my room, but I only stayed there for half an hour and insisted on being taken to the condo I was renting, off Flamingo property, because the idea of staying in the same hotel as Shermer was too much. And, at that point, which is now at least two and a half hours after I left the party, I had to be pushed in a wheelchair to get out of the hotel because I was still too drunk to make it under my own steam.
Anyway, I don’t know if you want to post any of that or not, but I thought it would be good to at least know in case you were having any concerns about the truth of what I’m claiming.
So by Shermer’s account, she could drink him under the table and was totally sober, but we have witnesses that she was so drunk she needed to be wheeled out of the hotel?
By the way, if anyone tries to argue that she was therefore so drunk that she couldn’t have been able to remember being abused, and therefore there is no crime, I will boot your slimy ass out of here so fast that you will question the fact that you were ever here in the first place.
I never had any concerns about the truth – and I am saddened, and ashamed, and frustrated, and angry that it had to come to this, for Allison to have to write that, because it should not be necessary in anything approaching a just world.
Thank you, Allison Smith, and I’m so sorry you’re having to go through this. :(
I’m sure this means she lied. Somehow.
I’m just waiting for a thought-leader to come along and tell me how exactly.
Ah, the CeeLo Green defense.
This timeline of events is pretty conclusive. No wonder she was calling it rape immediately. It is a textbook, classic example of date rape. It could almost be used as a model to teach police what to look out for when investigating incidents of date rape.
Alison,
I’m so sorry about what happened to you. I’m sorry that you are being treated so badly, with such distrust.
Thank you for sharing your story. I believe you, I believed you the first time PZ wrote about this.
Take care.
Dawkins, Shermer, who is next to out himself as a scummer? Aren’t we supposed to respect people, no matter what gender, race, whatever? I need to get my day-drunk on >.<
PS: Alison, you are a braver person than I could ever hope to be. My best wishes to you and yours.
[Insert cuddly kitteh pic here]
No concerns. No doubts.
Though I have to say I’m not feeling angry like rq. I’m disheartened, discouraged and, above all, disappointed by the posturings of those who are trying to dismiss your report.
Thank you for this. And I hope you have people around you to support you through this.
I have to be honest, don’t even understand why a man would want to do something like that. I don’t see how it could even be gratifying. Or rather, the gratification couldn’t be the sex, which this is not, at least as I understand the concept. Maybe I should just stop there but anyhow, some guys just aren’t wired correctly.
cervantes@8
–>Ding ding ding, we have a winnah!
As I understand it, the gratification is getting to use another human being. In this manner it’s perhaps a couple of steps better than a serial killer, but it’s still all about getting one’s power on.
I hope this gets forwarded to Dawkins. (Just to spite him. I don’t think there’s a chance of anything else happening at this point.)
Alison, please don’t think anyone here doubted you. Maybe it’s because 99,9999% of the time, I’m not a juror at a rape trial, but I just can’t bring myself to having concerns about the truth of what is being said by someone who comes forward about rape. In a culture where false rape accusations happen as monstrously often as 2-3% of the time, and yet the moment she opens her mouth, she’s bound to be attacked – viciously – from all sides because a man’s reputation might be ruined!!!!
It’s the ownership and control that gets them off. I did that, and you couldn’t stop me, and now I own you, LoL. My landlord delights in seeing how high he can make his wife jump when he yells frog. I’ve had to absent myself from the situation because she simply refuses to leave and trying to make her would be just as abusive as her husband is. What I’ve done is record some choice events with my cellphone and keep the videos hidden away safely so that if the straw ever does break the camels back the question won’t be whether she can get away with anything to support her, it’ll be how poor will she leave him.
Alison Smith’s clarification more directly contradicts the story Shermer is now telling. (Not to be confused with the stories he’s told in the past about the incident.) He claims, first that Smith propositioned him in a bathroom and he turned her down, then:
So his story is that hours after she sobered up and they had sex, she called her friend and pretended to be drunk and to accuse Shermer of rape. There is at least one other (unnamed, not anonymous) witness who corroborates Smith’s timeline and contradict’s Shermer’s. I find his current story much less plausible than the story Smith has been telling since the incident first occurred.
ianeymeaney,
Jerry Coyne, James Randi, Ron Lindsey, Michael Nugent, Sam Harris, DJ Grothe, Ben Radford, Dave Silverman…
They’ve all shown us exactly what they think of women in their movement and the role they think we should play in it. It isn’t pretty. There is room under the big tent for forced birthers, harassers, male supremacists and rapists, but not for uppity women.
As if that point wasn’t idiotic and weak enough already, I just want to point out yet another weakness in it:
A baby wouldn’t remember being abused either. So anyone who wants to say there’s no crime in Alison’s case must immediately follow that up by saying they won’t blame someone for having hit a baby in the past.
cervantes,
It has nothing to do with wiring. Rape is a choice. Men are taught to see women as deserving their autonomy taken away under several circumstances. They are taught that if her body isn’t nailed down, it’s yours and if you can pry it up it is not nailed down. They are taught that women exist for them. They are taught that they are better than women, more human than women. That’s patriarchy and rape culture, not merely the nature of roughly 10% of all men.
Saad,
Well, at least you didn’t teach the baby about hell. /s
Jackie #13
That’s uppity women who are too oestogen-soaked to be uppity, you understand.
</harris paradox>
Yes, the “wiring” part of it stops at finding a person physically attractive. Virtually all of us have that wiring. The rape part is a completely separate action.
I dunno, I think there’s a wiring component. I grew up in the same culture as everybody else and the idea of non-consensual sex is repulsive to me. It’s not a temptation I need to struggle with or something I had to learn not to do.
Threads like this are difficult enough for rape survivors as it is. Could we not poison it by focusing on the “wiring” and desires of rapists, cervantes @ 19? We literally just covered this in the Thought Leaders thread and it triggered at least one person.
I’d like to be able to read this thread and offer my support to Smith without running the risk of being triggered by discussion of what gets rapists off. Thank you.
^This. I posted a reply (to someone else) in the Thought Leaders thread, with quotes to help shed light on the disturbingness of rape. There are more 101-level references in the discussion just previous.
https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2014/09/18/oh-no-thought-leaders-are-being-picked-on/comment-page-1/#comment-855178
To Alison: Thank you, as always, for sharing your story. I admire your courage and openness.
To everyone else: Someone let me know if that Metaburbia creep starts recanting. Last night on Twitter, he kept insisting that since Alison said she wouldn’t have used the word rape, then therefore it wasn’t rape, and saying otherwise was mansplainy white knighting. I’m sure, being a true skeptic, he will now recant and correct himself.
cervantes, I replied to your #19 in the other thread here.
There was never any doubt in my mind – or, I would wager, in the minds of the vast majority of the regulars here – about the truth of your description of events, Alison. It is a terrible thing that a person who has gone through what you have gone through should have to write a further clarification like this that rakes up the trauma all over again, just because oblivious misogynist nitwits refuse to believe women on a point of principle.
Shermer’s inconsistent account and poisonous rhetoric has long since confirmed in my mind that he is a sexual predator and a threat to women; this was no misunderstanding or error of judgement, this was a rapist targeting and stalking his intended victim in a highly calculated manner. He knew exactly what he was doing.
Many of his supporters have also expressed opinions that seem to clearly indicate a deep seated misogyny and, in no small number of cases, a mindset that seems to telegraph their own preparedness to rape should the opportunity arise. I find myself despising Shermer and his posse of woman-hating, rape apologist thugs as much as I have ever despised any human being.
Thank you for sharing what happened to you in order to warn other women of how dangerous Shermer, and all those others like him, really are. Thank you for having the courage to speak up. Thank you for being in the front line against the rising tide of misogyny that is currently blighting movement atheism due to the nauseating bigotry and unearned privilege of the Shermers, Dawkins, and Harris’s of the world, despite the pain it must have cost you.
Just remember that you are not alone; principled, feminist atheists and skeptics are behind you 100%.
Cyberhugs are available if you want them.
Thank you Alison for sharing this. I believe you and have always believed you.
Also, 2nd/3rd/whatever-ing the call to refrain from the speculation about rapist motivations. Others have pointed out that it’s triggering for many but it also erases the victim and makes the conversation about the perpetrator instead.
Alison, thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with us. I realize this must be very disturbing to you so I admire your courage in being so frank. I also appreciate that you’re doing this to warn potential victims about a serial rapist.
@12 kellym
And she was so not drunk that she left in a wheel-chair.
The “Brave Defenders” were leaning heavy on that email. I’m sure they will manage to rationalize away the explanation as some sort of after-the-fact story-telling, but with witnesses willing to corroborate the story, it is really irrelevant.
Combining these clarifications Allison’s account in the Buzzfeed article is simultaneously heartbreaking and infuriating.
If anyone can read that and defend Shermer, I don’t want anything to do with them.
Two details in particular make my skin crawl and my blood boil when juxtaposed. I’m going to repeat them all by themselves for emphasis:
But apparently Dawkins was just trying to open up a discussion on rape and alcohol. In some ways, we should be thanking Dick.
Well, according to fan boy here.
http://homoeconomicusnet.wordpress.com/2014/09/21/the-discussion-we-need-on-rape-and-alcohol/
At the time of the alleged rape, Shermer was 55-years-old. Smith’s age in the Oppenheimer article is given as 26, which makes her 20 or 21 during TAM 2008. Again, the JREF took no action in subsequent TAMs to protect young women, who may have been ignorant of Shermer’s MO, that they were potential targets of a predator. In fact, DJ Grothe, Sara Mayhew, and others vilified the Skepchicks for trying to protect women from a known threat.
re #28 and 29… Alison gave more details last week on Twitter, about what those two hours were like. (Warning as it gets worse): (Twitter link), (comment in the Twisted story thread)
Pteryxx. That was not Alison Smith’s twitter feed. It was someone else.
Whoops, scratch my #32… that’s a DIFFERENT Alison on Twitter, telling a similar story of her own experience
Yeah, I did catch that kellym but not fast enough. Thanks though.
Alison Smith:
No such concern here. I believe you, Alison, and I am so sorry you have to go through this. You have all my support.
So, fuck
Each and every one of her moves is being questioned and questioned and questioned, but Shermer’s apparently not so much
Ryan Cunningham
Absolutely! RD and his buddies can man the steam-shovels of rape denial all they like, but it’s just so much noise. The point that they are eliding is that even if an inebriated person is demanding that you have sex with them, the only moral response is to refuse, and make sure that person gets home safe. That there are details that Alison doesn’t remember clearly and that what she does remember is the polar opposite of getting home safe is incontrovertible proof of rape.
When you “open up” a discussion by taking the side of the rapists, don’t be surprised that you get called a rape apologist.
Kudos to you Alison. You have my support and admiration.
details and corroboration are a good thing to have there is no doubt.
They make the defense and denial all the more pathetic.
The harder they come the harder they fall
uncle frogy
Tethys #39:
Absolutely, and it’s a bizarre discrepancy in the law how it is well established that a person who has been manipulated in signing a contract or selling something of value while drunk has a right in civil law to repudiate that sale/contract and have the court declare the contract/sale null and void on the basis of a lack of capacity to informedly and freely consent, and possibly then have the manipulator prosecuted for fraud and/or theft by deception (cue the “I didn’t think he was THAT drunk” defence, which is oddly never referred to in these cases as a “xe said/they said” situation). The courts take an extremely dim view of taking advantage of intoxication for one’s personal gain when the matter involves property or money, and this is reflected in how criminal investigators and prosecutors pursue such cases, but the same attitude has historically not extended to sexual coercion.
The law says that when it comes to the transfer of property/money or a contract for ongoing services, a signed and witnessed legal contract is not enough to establish crystal clear consent if the signer can demonstrate that they were incapacitated due to intoxication at the time of signing. The law and the courts are clear that it is not just immoral/unethical but illegal to take advantage of a drunk person when it comes to matters of commerce. The *law* says this about sexual interaction as well, but the police, prosecutors and courts have not yet fully caught up.
Alison, I am so sorry that this happened to you & admire your bravery in coming forth. Given the insane amount of frothing apologists out there, I’m not sure I would have had the guts. The idea behind the panel was wonderful. Empathetic and more humane than he deserved.
This breaks my heart. Again.
Years ago, I was staying in an apartment on a local bus route, and my second floor bedroom window opened just over the bus stop. I woke one morning about 2 or 3 AM hearing a girl sobbing her heart out down there. A friend was with her, trying to comfort her. The bus runs infrequently at that time, and the girl cried for at least half an hour and boarded the bus still crying. I ached for her, but there was nothing to do.
The picture of Alison crying in the elevator brought it all back. And all the time in between is full of weeping women. It just goes on and on and on and on. Somewhere, some woman, some little girl, someone’s daughter is learning right now what it is to be powerless. We’re still crying.
How can anyone live knowing they’ve had a part to play in bringing this about?
When will it ever end? Will</il it ever end?
Will
Preview, preview!
Powerful words and video by Prince Ea Why I Think This World Should End
I am so disgusted after reading this. In a just world, Michael Shermer would be in prison right now.
Alison, thanks for speaking.
PZ, thanks for helping.
ekwhite:
In a just world, there wouldn’t be rape. As it stands, Shermer has been raping for a very long time, and all the big names of the atheoskeptisphere? They covered for him. That alone points out that the problem is much bigger than just Shermer. So, we have to keep hammering on the walls of entrenched, systemic sexism, hoping we break through one of these days.
“At the time of the alleged rape, Shermer was 55-years-old. Smith’s age in the Oppenheimer article is given as 26, which makes her 20 or 21 during TAM 2008. Again, the JREF took no action in subsequent TAMs to protect young women, who may have been ignorant of Shermer’s MO, that they were potential targets of a predator. In fact, DJ Grothe, Sara Mayhew, and others vilified the Skepchicks for trying to protect women from a known threat.”
This. x100000000000
I’m mostly lurking these days but I have to emerge to say thank you to Alison Smith. Alison, you are a very courageous young woman, and I totally believe you and support you. Remote e-hugs from Australia. Your story is being heard around the world.
She was so drunk she couldn’t possibly have remembered being abused, and besides she was completely sober and consented. And I didn’t contradict myself because saying she was simultaneously drunk and sober is perfectly consistent if you happen to have a copy of SRY in your genome. Anyone who understands basic logic knows that the truth value of a statement is determined by the genitals of the person making it!
Sadly, none of this will prevent the misinformation from being spread. I doubt the speculations and lies will even be changed in light of this information. The people spreading those don’t really care about the truth. All they really care about is that one of their heroes is under attack, and they must rally to put down the threat.
Yeah, and their hero’s version of the events is still awful.
@39
Exactly. He tricked a drunk girl less than half his age into his hotel room by putting himself in a position of trust.
Alison:
I continue to believe and support you.
I am very impressed by Alison Smith’s bravery and toughness. I am sorry that this happened and I hope that more men will learn the meaning and importance of consent. I also think that everybody involved in organized atheism needs to search our hearts and ask what they could have done to avoid having rapists and their apologists in such powerful positions in our movement.
Alison: Hugs and support from an old acquaintance.
My respects and support to Alison Smith.
Do fuck off, Sweet Baby Jebus.
Alert sent.
Note to doubters: the shit Alison is talking about is the MO of a serial rapist. They choose to rape women this way because they know they can get away with it.
this shit isn’t okay.
oh yeah, and just so people know, my husband dated alison before me. She told him shortly after it happened, and she called it rape from the start. She just didn’t make a huge deal out of it (who would want to? all that happens is you get treated even worse). When the accusations came out we both knew it was true, but didn’t know if it was alison or someone else. Other women involved with coordinating TAM let me know that shermer was on the creep list unofficially circulated by women as a means of self protection.
I don’t know how she can put up with the bullshit people say about this. I hope she makes it through okay. It sounds like she has a ton of evidence. I hope she sues him for sexual abuse.
Both Libby Anne of Love, Joy, Feminism, and Hiba of A Veil and a Dark Place are now on record saying that they feel “used” by the leaders of mainstream atheism. Libby wants nothing more to do with organized atheism.
SallyStrange:
I’d like to think the large amount of women distancing themselves from organized atheism might cause certain people to think, but…it won’t.
Iyéska–
Yeah. If organized atheism were anything but a Club of Smugness for people with privilege, it might mean a death knell for the organized parts of it. Sadly, that’s not the case.
SallyStrange:
No. I think the Smug Club for Atheists is actually happy with the result. They’ve nailed the “Privileged Dudes and Chill Girls Only” sign firmly on the clubhouse door.
I was going to say that its time to make it a police matter.
Then I just checked and TAM 2008 was held in Florida. I don’t find it at all difficult to see why she would not want to go to the Florida police given their behavior in the murder of Treyvon Martin.
Phillip Hallam-Baker @ 71:
Please, do not do this. As I wrote in the grenade thread:
Regardless of the jurisdiction, it is not appropriate to presume to dictate to a victim when “it’s time to make it a police matter”. I believe you were trying to be supportive. But it just feeds the “call the cops or you’re a liar” narrative which is high on the list of apologetic tactics.
Iyéska, I think Phllip Hallam-Baker was saying that he was going to say that, but then realized how this is a bad idea.
Esteleth:
Yes, I know, I can read. Philip Hallam-Baker also stated he changed his mind because Florida cops and Trayvon Martin. That’s not sufficient, and too many people don’t understand why it’s wrong to bring up “go to the police”.
A bit late to the thread, but just dropping in to note my support for Alison
via Ophelia, the person who helped Alison that night apparently has come forward. (JREF forum link)
I already know I’m just piling on at this point, but…
The only concerns I had when I first read your story, Alison, were confirmed… that you’d be treated like crap, dismissed, questioned, and worse by Shermer’s sycophants and more. That Dawkins’ joined in when you outed yourself in that article wasn’t a surprise… it would’ve been had this been a year or two ago, but not now.
I certainly had no concerns about the veracity of your story. I didn’t even care that we, at first, didn’t know who you were. I was perfectly content with the fact that PZ knew and kept it to himself. I just hoped that you’d be able to heal, and that is still my hope.
I believed you. I still believe you. I will always believe you. And I’m so sorry you went through this. You are believed, you have support… you have a team.