I’ll put this below the fold — the story of Christine Mackinday and Jonathan Koppenhaver might be traumatizing to some. It’s about a vicious beating.
First, here’s Ms Mackinday’s side of the story, which she posted on twitter afterwards. (It’s long because she cheated and posted it as a graphic image, including photos of her injuries.
At about 2 am Friday morning, Jon Koppenhaver arrived unannounced to my home in Las Vegas, NV, after he broke up with me in May, he moved out of my house and back to San Diego. When he arrived, he found myself and one other fully clothed and unarmed in the house. Without a single word spoken, he began beating my friend; once he was finished, he sent my friend away and turned his attention to me. He made me undress and shower in front of him, then dragged me out and beat my face. I have no recollection of how many times I was hit, I just know my injuries that resulted frm my beating. My injuries include 19 broken bones around my eyes, my nose is broken in 2 places, I am missing teeth and several more are broken. I am unable to chew, or see out of my left eye. My speech is slurred from my swelling and lack of teeth. I have a fractured rib and severely ruptured liver from a kick to my side. My leg is so badly injured I have no been able to walk on my own. I also attained several lesions from a knife he got from my kitches. He pushed the knife into me in some areas such as my hand, ear, and head. He also sawed much of my hair off with this dull knife. After some time, the knife broke off of the handle and continue to threatened me with the blade. I believed I was going to die. He has beaten me many times before, but never this badly. He took my phone and cancelled all my plans for the following week to make sure no one would worry about my whereabouts. He told me he was going to rape me, but was disappointed in himself when could not get hard. After another hit or two, he left me on the floor bleeding and shaking, holding my side from the pain of my rib. He left the room and went to the kitchen where I could hear him ruffling through my drawers. Assuming he was finding a sharper, more stable knife to end my life, I ran out my back door, shutting it behind me so the dogs didn’t run inside to tip him off. I hopped the fence to the golf course behind my house and ran to a neighboring house. Naked and afraid he would catch me, I kept running through the neighborhood knocking on doors. Finally, one answered and I was brought to the hospital and treated for my injuries.
I would like to thank everyone for their support though this rough time. I am healing fast and well, and I appreciate all of the prayers and visits I have received over the past few days. After many months of fear and pressure to keep this man happy, although I fear for my life, I feel that I can no longer put myself in this situation. The cheating by him nearly ever day, and almost weekly abuse is now more than I can stand. There is a $10K reward for the capture of Jonathan Koppenhaver at this time. Please report any information to your local police.
Thank You
Wait! Before you rush to judgment, don’t you want to hear the guy’s side of the story? Maybe he’s got a good explanation. Maybe Mackinday exaggerated. You know, LOGIC! We have to weigh both sides and then arrive at a conclusion by pure reason.
Nah, actually we don’t. When a woman is beaten this badly and the culprit runs off unscathed, I think the evidence is sufficient to decide that he did wrong. But we’ll give him his chance to speak.
Koppenhaver also took to Twitter in the aftermath.
I’m not a bad guy, I went to surprise my gf, help her set up her show and to give her an engagement ring and ended up fighting for my life.
Wow! What a sweet guy. I’m trying to reconcile the thought that he was fighting for his life with the brutal injuries to Ms Mackinday, however.
The poor man thinks he is cursed. I guess he’s the one really suffering while Ms Mackinday lies in a hospital bed with broken bones.
I only wish that man hadn’t been there and that Christy & I would behappily engaged.I don’t know y I’m so cursed.One day truth will come out
Of course, when someone makes some stupid, maudlin comment about them getting back together, he has an angry reply.
fuck u talking about? She’s my Property and always will be.
If you don’t have enough information yet to recognize the problem here, you can also read the official police report (pdf).
Not enough? Koppenhaver was jailed for a bar fight several years ago, and was further locked up by himself for fighting in prison, so he had plenty of time to write about Men’s Rights. Here’s a little manifesto by a dedicated MRA.
So it’s Christmas day and I’m laying in my bunk wondering "Why in the hell do American men get married!?" As I write this, there is one guy in here for slapping his wife, one here for yelling at his wife, and one here for beating some guy’s ass that disrespected his wife. WTF!? If your wife is being a bitch you can’t slap her, if your wife is yelling at you, God forbid you yell back, and if some asshole hurts your wife, you can not protect her! LMFAO! What in the FUCK! is REALLY going on!? Next thing you know it will be illegal to fuck your wife! LMAO! Maybe then, MEN in this country will get the fucking hint and MOVE! This country forces you to be a bitch! And then if you resist, you go to jail! And if you give in and become a passive lil’ pansy, your wife is gonna sneak around and get fucked by someone like a single War Machine! HAHA! And believe me, in my day, I have fucked more than one wife who complained about being "sick and tired of wearing the pants in the family." What a fucking country! De-masculated men left and right, mere sheep for the cowards in political offices to boss around and PLAY tough with. A country that preaches "Violence solves nothing" to it’s masses, but is eager to run off to war with ANY and EVERY country, who refuses it’s verbal bullying.
Encoded in, "All political negotiations and peace talks have fell on deaf ears, so we will now commence a military campaign," is "they wouldn’t cower to our verbal threats (to do what we want) so now we’re gonna fuck them up, as once again violence is the only REAL answer to any problem." And ANY one who reads this and preaches against this is just fucking WEAK and a COWARD and you hide behind your words, for only one reason: words always have been, and always will be, your ONLY option. But when you were a lil’ boy… and even now in your dreams at night… you’re a bad-ass, a real tough guy… a cowboy, a gladiator, a fighter pilot, a Navy SEAL, a professional athlete. So why don’t you swallow your shame and be a REAL man for once, and give the country back to REAL MEN and admit! I’m right! And DO SOMETHING to help us! This country has gone SO SOFT that it has left us helpless. The oppression of MEN is worse than oppression of Jews in Nazi germany, worse than the slavery of Blacks in early America… I’m not exaggerating either. Every Jew & every Black man, both in jail and those who have managed to avoid it, will attest to what I have just wrote. I have never written ANYTHING that I wanted to be read/heard more than what I wrote today on Christmas 2010. Fuck it. I got more to write!
There has always been the oppressor and always the oppressed. Before, it was blatant, easy to see, easier to defend. The Indians, the Chinese, the Blacks, the Jews. NOW the oppressor has learned to disguise his evil. You can see man, but you can not see MEN. How easy it is to oppress a minority that is invisible to the eye! How genius of the oppressor! And what a better target too! Jews and Blacks are of no threat to government! They were oppressed because of a prejudice of what was different and of what they didn’t understand. It served no real purpose and was therefore easier to extinguish. But MEN… Men challenge injustice from Government, MEN fight for their Constitutional rights, that are slowly being taken away every year. Those that are not MEN don’t like it when we are around because we expose them for the posers that they are. REAL MEN do what’s right and not what will line the pockets of the few in power… Now you can see why MEN have been chosen to oppress. And they don’t just oppress us by making more laws and taking away more freedom, they are far more clever than that! Ask yourself what your REAL dream was?? If you gave up on this dream, why? Because of the brainwashing of the Government, that’s why! They taught you to "play it safe." They told us a responsible man has ONE wife, a house, good credit, good job, and kids. How are you supposed to chase your dreams while maintaining all of that!?
Men are supposed to take risks and be aggressive! What accomplishments have ever come of a man scared to risk it all!? None!? Where would the world be? Still ‘flat!’ Still ‘Earth at the center of the universe!’ Where would Brad Pitt be!? He’d be nobody! When he was discovered he was like 26 years old, a waiter, and living out of his car! He wasn’t playing it safe, he was risking it all! On his dream! Being a MAN is BALLS not brawn! So don’t think you were too weak or small to be the MAN I’m talking about. So many of you ARE MEN but you got trapped by the oppressor. Every time you fight the urge to tell your wife "NO!" or you tell your son, "Don’t punch the bully, go tell instead," YOU ARE LETTING THE OPPRESSOR WIN! Think on it. And here’s a good book to read… It’s a Christian book so it’s a SUPER SOFT way of saying all that I said, but it should inspire you regardless. "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge.
Men are the true victims here, says the violent guy who has gone through life pounding other people to a bloody pulp.
I’m sort of familiar (not in a personal way) with Koppenhaver via being an MMA fan.
He’s always been a piece of crap (in and out of the sport). There have been several instances now of him proving it, and this is just the worst one.
Here’s just one more story that just came out from MMA legend Ken Shamrock. He took Shamrock’s daughter to Mexico and then left here there.
But the people he has been pounding to a bloody pulp have always been evil oppressors, don’t you see? Something really bad might have happened to him, hadn’t he been beating them up. His ego might have shriveled up or something like that.
Poor, poor oppressed soul.
The thing is he sucks as an MMA fighter too. He has only beaten C level competition.
Hahaha.
Well he seems nice.
/s
Honestly, the calculated application of violence is a valuable skill. Bodyguards, bouncers and to an extent police learn that in training. The most important point being when not to use force. I can’t actually think of any situation in which that level of violence would be useful.
This guy’s problem, other than being an asshole, seems to be that he doesn’t seem to have any other response. When your only tool is beating the shit out of people, that’s what you do. In answer to any problem you encounter. There’s a whole ideology which seems to think that if you can hit someone, you should, or that at the very least you have a right to.
Saad #3: not funny and not helping. Erections aren’t proof of Really Real Man status, they’re not the other party’s fault or responsibility, and as in the OP, violent men who *do* blame their erection (or lack of one) on another person will often assault or kill them for it.
Thanks, PZ! I was worried I was going to go the whole morning without wanting to puke.
And before anyone thinks I’m complaining, I fully recognize it’s my decision to read anything PZ labels as potentially traumatic. I accept the nausea as a reasonable consequence for knowing and understanding what evil people do and why they do it.
… what is Jaclynn Glenn’s take on it
Agreed with Pteryxx @ 6 re: Saad @ 3
There’s plenty to criticize about this guy without promoting toxic Real Man tropes. And I mean really, what do you think you’re implying there by laughing at him? That you’d have been able to get it up in the same situation? Congrats, yo…not really.
Of course, there are men who are defending him online.
There is no low too low for some people.
OK. I might piss off a couple of people by writing this, but I’ll do it anyway. I don’t find it the least bit surprising that someone involved in a sport that is all about beating and subduing others would exhibit the same violence outside of the ring.
I hope someone (with a stronger stomach than mine) is keeping and eye on Vox Day’s game blog. I’m waiting for him to feature War Machine as an example of true alpha maleness. Because, you know, it wasn’t assault, it was a relationship dominance move!
Seriously, remember when Charles Saatchi grabbed Nigella Lawson by the throat in public last year? Vox did a whole post about it, analyzing the behavior in Game terms. I’d like to say that’s when I realized he has only a passing relationship with the real world, but I’d figured that out some time previous.
@Saad #3 and, in certain parts, @Pteryxx #6:
Saas, you’ve contributed positively in other threads, and so I’m giving you the gentle version here, but your comment #3 is, in a word, horrifying. After quoting the OP quoting the victim of a horrible beating that produced life-threatening injuries (an injured liver can easily be the source of fatal internal bleeds), when that victim describes a failed attempt at rape, you write:
While clearly a sarcastic attempt at punching up by mocking the attacker, you are laughing at the attacker’s failed attempt to rape someone. The idea that this person would be less mockable if he was a rapist than if he was an attempted rapist sickens me deeply.
While Pteryxx is right that your mockery only participates in [rather than opposes] Koppenhaver’s twisted social world where masculinity is enforced by mockery and proven by violence, the worst part of this is not, oh, noes, mocking a failed erection.
The worst part, and the part which I’m surprised Pteryxx didn’t call out, the part which slipped past both of you in that privileging of the attacker’s perspective, is that Mackinday is going to end up reading far too many comments like yours and be unable to conclude anything other than that her terror, and the event that triggered
Koppenhaver to go looking for a more effective knife, is blithely cooped for the rhetorical benefit of random internet commenters.
The emotions she must feel reading such a comment are beyond my ability to predict or describe. The emotions of others who experienced attacks by would be rapists who failed to become erect likely range from momentarily horrified to not much less hellish than Mackinday’s.
I honestly don’t know why anyone would consider that a reasonable price to pay for the opportunity to mock Koppenhaver.
Oh. I just realized that my first sentence could be misinterpreted. I was thinking that I might piss off football/boxing and mma fans. I’m not in any way blaming the victim. After re-reading, I realized that I wasn’t clear.
Horrific story. I looked this up on Google and he was captured two days ago.
The lawer says in a news article, “”The media has done a good job of painting my client out to be a monster, but my client is not a monster. He’s a good guy,” said Koppenhaver’s attorney, Brandon Sua.”
I recognize everyone has the right to an attorney but this guy can’t possibly believe what he’s saying. Nothing the woman could have ever done could have possibly justified a tenth of what she went through that day.
Technically his name is War Machine. He’s that kind of person.
@Borax #12
The thing is, you can;t really extrapolate his behavior to other MMA fighters. If you ever read anything he ever wrote, or watched him on The Ultimate Fighter, you’d come to realize he’s probably just a psychopath. I hate doing the Keith Ablow and diagnosing someone via tv, but I’m not sure he’s ever shown an ounce of remorse for anything he’s ever done.
That said this is not a great month for defending fighter behavior.
I guess I agree that he’s not a monster.
He’s just a horrible human being doing a very good impression of a monster.
borax,
There is a culture of misogyny and machismo around alot of hand to hand sports, but that doesn’t mean that taking part in hand to hand sports means you are an abuser. The misogyny and machismo are the problem, not the competitive fighting. Sadly, the competitive fighting is just what made him capable of inflicting more damage.
Slightly off-topic, but there is a studio in a nearby town that offers training in both MMA and poledancing. What a heady hormonal brew that must produce…
Saad:
I agree with Seven of Mine, Pteryxx, & Crip Dyke. That comment was awful.
You may not have intended it to be so, but that doesn’t change the effect. To my ears it reads like “look at that guy, he couldn’t get his dick hard to rape that woman”. There is plenty to criticize “War Machine” for, so please find something else to mock him about.
What’s funny about the Manifesto is that he is writing it from jail. Yeah, you’re in prison for following your own ridiculous beliefs. HAHAHA, loser.
I read about this elsewhere, and some of the comments that suggest he was “justified” because she was having sex with someone else are deeply disgusting.
“she’s my property”…says everything that needs to be said about the disordered thinking of this particular individual and those who would defend him.
@smhll, 23:
yeah. Worse, some of the same people who say that have said that Mackinday should have literally expected beatings, that Mackinday registered implied consent to serious liver damage by dating someone who professionally fights under controlled conditions against others who submit to such fights only with advance notice and while maintaining the right to withdraw.
Yet, those people don’t appear to believe that Mackinday’s profession says anything about Koppenhaver’s implied consent.
Now, obviously I don’t believe that anything Mackinday might do short of repeatedly posing a credible threat to Koppenhaver’s life and/or bodily integrity up until the moment Koppenhaver stopped could justify Koppenhaver’s assaults. Nonetheless, even if you adopt those douchegabbers’ points for the purpose of argument, it’s clear that they themselves don’t believe in any principle that they claim to espouse. These are clearly post hoc (and ad hoc) rationalizations for what these horrible people really espouse: the right of men to own women as property, and to dispose (in all senses) of the women a man owns as that man sees fit.
Repulsive doesn’t begin to describe it.
There are men blaming her because she was a porn actress and because she “should have known” he’d beat her to death because he’s a big, “alpha” MMA fighter. Don’t forget that the manosphere perpetrates the myth that women only go for bad boys and this is what they get for not fucking poor, lonely “nice guys”.
How refreshingly honest.
Believing what he says isn’t part of his job.
That said, it’s pernicious of him to imply that anybody is either “a good guy” or “a monster”. People are bundles of personality traits, not single crystals of Incorruptible Pure Pureness.
I read comments on one website, Huff post I think, and there was a lot of push back from men and women challenging the idea that she deserved it. They also challenged the idea that she should be identified only as a porn star. Even though there are a lot of assholes out there, It is encouraging to see people openly challenge the macho and victim blaming culture
Both Mrs. Toque and I engage in martial arts and pole dancing, and yet – except for occasions where we spar against each other while wearing padding and obeying the rules of our art – I’ve never hit her or felt even the slightest need to physically harm my wife.
I don’t think we’re the odd ones, here. We’re just civilized.
Both Mrs. Toque and I engage in martial arts and pole dancing, and yet – except for occasions where we spar against each other while wearing padding and obeying the rules of our art – I’ve never hit her or felt even the slightest need to physically harm my wife.
I don’t think we’re the odd ones, here. We’re just civilized.
I agree that lots of peaceful, civilized people do both MMA and poledancing/polefit. The combination studio just struck me as funny when I happened on it a while ago.
@frugaltoque:
Polka is civilized?
:shudder:
Look. When you start off by saying “I might piss people off but I’m going to say it anyway,” I automatically start tuning you out because you’re not adding anything except a sense of preemptive martyrdom to whatever you’re saying, and people who go in for preemptive martyrdom tend to be worthless assholes.
Consider these two options instead: First, you could just not say it. Second, you could say it without the pusillanimous disclaimer and just try to make your case as strong as possible so as to address as many objections by your imagined haters as possible.
Saad, I dearly hope you apologize for that comment. That was utterly terrible.
As to the article itself… I can’t even… “she’s my property”…
(Note: while I know he won’t read it, this next line is addressing Koppenhaver directly) Fuck you asshole. Fuck you and everything about you. I hope you rot in fucking prison for fucking life you fucking shit.
To the whole “monster” debate. I can’t. I know it’s othering and I know it’s wrong, but even “Abusive MRA Misogynist” just doesn’t seem strong enough. To be fair, “monster” doesn’t seem strong enough, either. I feel like there isn’t a word in any language ever to describe it. I’m just…
Why? Fucking why?
And he’s being defended? Fucking defended?
I hate men. With a fucking passion.
And spare me the “not all men”, thanks. I know. I’m a fucking man (sadly). Still feelin’ the hatred, though.
I see your point, Nate, but it is well worth remembering next time someone pulls the ol’ “true Scotsman” routine.
As for the horrors Ms Mackinday was put through, fuck. FUCK! I will never understand how anybody can do this to another human being. Not for any reason. Why? What the fuck is wrong with these “people”? And what can I do to help?
One thing I have become increasingly aware of are the “I’m not saying I support (insert any vile piece of shit out there) but…” arguments. The moment I hear that “but” I start crossing people off my list of people I want to spend time with. On issues like these there is no “but”.
Nate,
I know that feel. I growled, “Fucking white people…” in front of someone a few days ago and she responded, “You’re the second white person I heard say that today”.
So
Yeah
I do not believe people are evil I find that idea of someone being evil to be based of religious interpretations of life. No, nothing is intrinsically evil including this guy. That this human being has become so twisted, so warped that he is a real threat to others is horrible. That he learned to be so physically abusive is sad beyond words. He learned that as a response to his experiences and I do not want to know what they were that is not my job nor am I trained in any related field.
It is a pity that society may be better off if he is confined but at this time I see no other alternative.
uncle frogy
To everyone who replied to my #3: I apologize for that. I honestly didn’t mean it that way though. I was laughing at a bully failing is all. It wasn’t a laugh about rape; it was in the same spirit as if he had gotten a gun out to shoot her but then couldn’t operate the gun and got frustrated. I was just laughing at the criminal’s frustration.
Oddly enough, Saad (#37), that was the only part of the encounter that made me think the guy had even a shred of humanity in him.
According to his beliefs about human behaviour, the complete physical domination of his property should have been turning his crank.
Somehow, though, some part of his mind was rejecting his gods-awful belief system and preventing him from inflicting that last, additional indignity upon another human being. That’s not to say he’s somehow redeemed by it. That would be ridiculous. But it is still pretty odd.
frugaltoque,
Don’t think too highly of him. That’s what steroid abuse will do to you.
Just speculating.
Jackie #39
You’re right. I hadn’t thought of that.
I just thought it might be putting the lie to all these assholes who think that treating a woman this way is somehow “natural” and “evolutionary” and all that bullshit.
Something like, “Shut up, dude, your own genitals don’t even believe you.”
Saad @ 37
I think we all get that you were going for something along the lines of “haha he doesn’t meet his own standards of what it means to be a Real Man.” Unfortunately, there are far too many people who would read your comment and come away with something more like “what a loser…a Real Man should be able to pop a boner when he wants to rape someone.”
Intent, magic, etc. I’m sure you know the drill. Thanks anyway for apologizing with a minimum of fuss. It’s appreciated.
@Crip Dyke #31
Well I never. Me and my barbaric pierogis will just be over here then, on the fringes of civilization. *sniff*
(/snark)
Seven of Mine #41
Yes, I see that. I’m particularly sorry for just posting “Hahaha”. Having posted only that, I can’t call any of the interpretations it resulted in far fetched. I can’t get mad at you guys for reading it that way. I’ll just back off and offer my apology again. Using humor anywhere near such a topic isn’t a wise idea, especially on an online forum with people who don’t know you and who don’t hear your tone and see your expression.
I am absolutely not that type of person though. Not even close to it. If that doesn’t sound convincing, that’s too bad. I can only hope if there are more discussions on such topics, it will become clear I’m not that type of person. Forced sexual conduct has zero justifications under any circumstance. And I definitely do not consider “getting it up” to be a sign of a someone’s worth or power.
The shithead has been arrested.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/893115-jonathan-koppenhaver-war-machine-update-and-mugshot-mma-fighter-accused-of-beating-christy-mack-wont-contest-extradition/
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/mma-fighter-war-machine-aka-jon-koppenhaver-caught-in-california-over-assault-on-exgirlfriend-christy-mack/story-fnh81jut-1227026871420
Good!
“fuck u talking about? She’s my Property and always will be.”
Ding, ding, ding … we have a winner.
Up until that point I felt like I had to at least consider his explanation. Ya’know in case hypno-toads or brain slugs turned out to be real … or something.
It doesn’t surprise me you would say that.
Ichthyic @ 46.
I’m proud that I consider all sides of every argument I can wrap my head around, but like your statement, some are worth less consideration than others. Another case where you prejudge based upon a lack of evidence. A nasty habit.
lorn @ 47, seriously? How can there be anything that justifies this horrible man’s actions? That you can even consider that there might be “another side” to his beating someone to death – that is appalling.
lorn:
Not that you’re going to respond to this, bc you don’t seem keen to interact with *anyone* (your pattern is usually to drop an enormously long and stinky turd in a thread-a turd which is often an example of you attempting to rewrite events to fit your personal narrative-evidence be damned), but what the ever loving fuck is wrong with you?
You thought you needed to consider his explanation in the face of this:
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Where the hell is your empathy? How can you read all of that and then say “Gosh, I should get the other side of the story before I decide my opinion of this”?
What happened to this woman is a documented FACT. Just like your repeated attempts to paint Michael Brown as deserving of being murdered, you continue to show a desire to excuse the inexcusable. This “War Machine” brutalized this woman and you’re looking to give his side of the story a good listen?!
My god you are a putrid excuse for a human being.
You’ve made excuses for the cold blooded murder of a black man at the hands of a white cop, which is fucking racist as fuck.
Now you’ve decided that it’s a good idea to listen to a fucking brutal misogynistic shitstain before making up your mind on the injuried a woman sustained? What would have happened if you agreed with his story? What would have happened if he never called her his “property”? Would you have then said “Well, I guess he was justified in nearly killing her”?
I hope PZ bans the fuck out of you before your next turd drops. I don’t think you’re just a racist, misogynistic asshole. I’m sure there’s a third. Transphobic perhaps? Homophobic maybe? I really do not fucking want to read more excuses from you as to why someone deserved to get murdered or brutalized.
Crawl back under the rock you came out of or at least never come back.
open minded does not mean empty headed.
Lorn is the quintessential hyperskeptic.
hey, Lorn…
http://atheismplus.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hyperskepticism
now run along and play, you still have much to learn about being a skeptic.
Dear gentlebeings,
Please note the following from lorn:
This scumbag thinks that the savage beating Christine Mackinday endured at the hands of “War Machine” is insufficient reason to completely condemn his ass. No, he has to have “all the fact and all the sides of the story” before he’ll judge a situation. As if there is *anything* that can justify such actions.
It is not prejudging to decide that a person who beats a woman like this is a misogynistic asshole who doesn’t value women and who belongs firmly behind bars. For some reason our resident empathy deficient scatstain seems to think we need to hear from the nice woman bashing misogynistic shitpiston because that would do *something*. Perhaps it would be something that would justify his actions. Something that could make you go “Oh, it makes sense now, he was right to brutalize her”. Please note that lorn is a horrible human being, and this is the second thread where this is on display. Hang around long enough true believers and we’re bound to see yet another example of lorn displaying some of the worst humanity has to offer.
This:
would be admirable if we were talking about an actual argument. The situation is a douchebag MRA savagely beat a woman. There are no “sides” here. This isn’t a court of law where one needs to learn all the facts before you make a judgment of guilty or not guilty. This is the court of public opinion where you don’t need to have all the evidence to come to the reasonable conclusion that “War Machine” is a putrid scuzzbucket.
lorn #45
Up until this point I felt like I had to at least consider your explanation too.
After that point, nah.
lorn
Have you considered going away?
chigau:
Did you consider both sides before asking this question? You know how important that is.
Lorn,
In every thread I’ve seen you in, you leave nasty, ignorant, arrogant, hate-filled bullshit. At least this time, we’re spared your long, imaginative tale about how the victim was really at fault the whole time, unlike in the Michael Brown threads. Please fucking leave and stop disrupting threads.
Tony!
I actually considered all 7 3/4 sides. So I’m sure I’m covered.
I keep misreading MMA as MRA.
Or maybe it’s the other way around.
What’s really fucked up is that if Koppenhaver had stuck with the standard abuser lines about how he was just too much in love with Mackinday instead of letting the mask slip and going on about owning her, lorn would probably still be happy to consider Koppenhavers “side.” What he did wasn’t enough, even though he broke her face more than twenty times over, tortured her with a knife and forced her to run away naked through her neighborhood. No, lorn had to wait to hear him say something bad before deciding his “side” wasn’t worth entertaining.
chirez @ 8:23am
yep … from the article on his arrest (thanx mickll!):
This thread takes me back to my years of handling domestic abuse cases. The abuse by such men has not changed; however, I am heartened to read a number of more positive responses in this day and age. When abuse was so extreme that it could not be dismissed as a disagreement or something anyone deserved, I would hear, well we don’t want the government involved in private matters between a couple. For those around the abused woman (almost always a woman, next largest category, a child), it was the coward’s way out, to turn away.
There is more work to be done, for sure, but the overall tone is better these days. It’s been almost 45 years over which that change is evident to me personally, but it’s there. Keep on pushing, people, change does come.
I cannot imagine how Ms. Mackinday managed to get herself out of there and how much it takes to speak out now. I deeply wish her well.
And I really wonder, is there any possible severe beating by a large, trained man on a smaller, untrained, unarmed naked woman, where one actually does need both sides to take the position that the violence was wrong?
I’m looking at lorn.
Not even Lorena Bobbitt.
Exactly, Ichthyic (@ #64). Not even her.
This is just… I still can’t form any coherent thoughts. I followed her on Twitter and sent a comment of support, but beyond that all I can do is go Hulk and scream and rage and fantasize about doing to him nearly all of what he did to her (minus one little bit, not because he failed, but because I hate it so fucking much). I know “eye for eye” is bad, but fuck him. I really do hope he dies in prison. Even if it’s of old age, I don’t fucking care, as long he spends the rest of his fucking “life” staring at cell bars and eating prison food.
*shakes head to clear it*
Too many memories…
#66 WMDKitty — Survivor
Indeed.
With luck this quote will be introduced in court to demonstrate his state of mind. It’s thoughtful of him to help the court out by airing his opinions in public.
Note: I am not excusing anything War Machine did. It is beyond vile, and he should spend the rest of his life in jail.
His comment about Christy Mack being his property really seems to be angering people. While it doesn’t really mitigate anything else he did, there is context to that. A while back, War Machine and Christy Mack got tattoos with each other’s names on them. He got “MACK” in big letters across his neck, and she got one that looks like a stamp or brand that says “Property of War Machine” on her back.
So her being his property was a long-time bit they had been doing, not something he claimed after attacking her.
Again, him beating her, sexually assaulting her, attempting to rape her, cutting her hair, and attempting to murder her is reason enough to remove him from society permanently. I am not making excuses for this scumbag. I’m not even sure why I felt compelled to mention this, other than just to bring all the information to the table.
Not victim-blaming, but I don’t know why anyone would put themselves in this situation. The guy had multiple criminal charges and a reputation for being out of control. There is video of the two of them on a show talking about their tattoos, and the host jokes that if they break up, they’ll be sorry. War Machine “jokes” back that in that case he’ll just kill Mack and change his tattoo to say “RIP MACK” and claim it’s a tribute to her. Mack “jokes” back at that point that if it comes to that, she’ll probably have deserved it. This was not a recipe for a happy ending.
Jonah Glou,
If I tattoo My heart belongs to PZ somewhere, would that be some sort of an explanation if he’s some day found with my heart in a bag in his car, blood seeping onto the passenger seat?
Yeah, that kind of is victim-blaming. See, victim-blaming doesn’t consist solely of obvious statements such as “it was her own fault”. It’s more subtle. It’s hidden in every I don’t understand why she would stay with him or why didn’t she call someone when he first got violent? because, while you don’t consciously want to blame the victim with that kind of statement, that’s what many victims will hear as an echo.
I should have seen it. If I had acted, it wouldn’t have come to this. Maybe I could have helped him.
Maybe this, maybe that. It’s all useless now. It only results in victims blaming themselves and those who do want to lay blame at victim’s instead of attacker’s feet feeling smug about other supporting their views. When the prevailing climate is victim-blamey, every little bit contributes to the chances of attackers getting excused because the poort thing couldn’t control himself, and the victim didn’t act “appropriately”.
Jonah Glou @ #69
Of course you’re not victim-blaming. You’re just saying that she was sending War Machine mixed signals. I mean, obviously, she meant that she deserved to be beaten to a pulp if, after he broke up with her, she didn’t just die on the spot.
That’s not victim-blaming. That’s just bringing salient information to the table about a routine they regularly participated in for the media while promoting his MMA career and her porn career.
Obviously, she was dancing near the edge and fell off. That’s not victim-blaming. That’s bringing information to the table.
Fucker
So someone really just said “I don’t condone beating someone to within an inch of their life but they did have matching tatoos so….”
Also:
Seriously people. If you’re preemptively disavowing an interpretation of what you’re about to say, it’s because you’ve already spotted that you’re about to do exactly what you claim not to be doing. I propose a new commenting rule: Anyone who begins a post with “I’m not XYX but…” forfeits their right to 3 posts before the rest of us tear them apart.
Jonah Glau:
Soooo, just to be clear- she should have just known better than to get in a relationship with WM, and it’s her fault that she got beat to a bloody pulp because she did.
You do realize that’s the textbook definition of victim blaming, no?
Your problem is you’re looking at this in retrospect and placing the blame for Mackinday’s injuries on her, bc in your eyes, she should have known better. Why do you not instead, place full blame on WM? He should have known better than to beat her. Why doesn’t *he* bear full responsibility for her injuries, since you know, he’s the one who beat her?
Jonah Glou #69
Yeah, it’s like they’re aliens innit. They have no obvious, entirely understandable human reasons at all.
Beatrice,
Absolutely not. But if PZ said your heart belongs to him, I would think you having such a tattoo would make that statement less outrageous. And that’s all. Nothing else. No reasonable person would think it allowed him to cut your heart out. Likewise, I made it clear War Machine needs to go to jail for life for his horrible actions.
Seven,
No, I didn’t say they had matching tattoos, I said she literally had a tattoo saying “Property of War Machine” on her back, so him referring to her as his property had that context. His vile attack is in no way justified by by that context. Nothing she did justifies this attack. He needs to go to jail for life.
That is possible. It’s also possible that you really don’t mean what your statement could be misinterpreted as meaning, so you just want to be clear.
For the record, Mack could say War Machine owned her and could do whatever he wanted to her and could kill her if he wanted, etc., etc., and he still has no right to do what he did. The attack is 100% not her fault. War Machine had no justification for what he did. As I said all along, he should go to jail for life for it.
Maybe they did it as a bit, but the context he used it in above was not a cute little “bit”. It was an answer to someone asking if they would get back together, in a discussion about how he was in jail for almost killing her.
Whoa, absolutely not.
I’m not going to get into the victim-blaming thing after this post, because I know the discussion will just go around and around. So I’m going to say my piece and then you can all tell me how horrible I am if that’s what you think.
I am 100% saying it’s not her fault. I am saying as an outsider looking at the situation, it looked like a disaster waiting to happen. And you’d hope it doesn’t happen, then it does. And you feel bad for the victim and wished they could have done someone to avoid it. I don’t think that is the same as saying it’s their fault.
He absolutely does bear full responsibility.
To me, you can wish somebody could have gotten out of the way of a maniac without taking any of the blame off the maniac for their actions. To others, any such suggestions is victim blaming. I am saying I wish the 100% blameless victim could have avoided being a 100% blameless victim. Obviously other people think expressing that sentiment is not OK since to them it means I’m assigning the victim some of the blame.
In other words, I think you can express a wish that someone could have avoided a situation for which they are not to blame, and if they don’t manage to avoid it, you can express regret that they couldn’t avoid it while still maintaining they are not to blame. Other people think that is nonsense. And there we stand.
Daz’s point about this probably being an abusive relationship which no doubt skewed Mack’s perception a good one. I wasn’t thinking in those terms, and that was stupid on my part.
Again, War Machine is 100% responsible for doing what he did and should go to jail for life. I never meant to suggest otherwise.
Jonah Glou,
But if he said that while holding my bloody heart, the statement would hardly be any less outrageous because of a tattoo I got. Right? Because that would be absurd.
And I’m not talking about the wrongness of the action, but the absurdity of considering a tattoo an explanation for that statement, made in that particular context.
Now tone the absurdity down a bit (but only a little bit), and make it about a man nearly killing a woman, saying “she’s my property and always will be”.
Sure, that tattoo makes those words and the sentiment behind them less outrageous…. (wtf? really, I can’t even keep explaining this, the more I think about it, the more it sounds like you actually are excusing (weakly, I admit) the attacker).
@ Jonah Glou
You didn’t say you wished she could have avoided it, you wondered why she put herself in that position in the first place.
It’s like you people think nobody will just scroll up a few posts and look at what you actually typed.
I don’t blame you or anything, but it sure is a shame you hadn’t done anything to avoid being beaten nearly to death
@ Jonah Glou
Which simply causes me to wonder why you felt that context was a worthwhile thing to bring up.
If that’s true, then take another few minutes to find a way to phrase it such that you don’t feel the need to disavow certain interpretations. And if you can’t think of a way, then acknowledge that you really are doing exactly what you claim not to be.
This hits home on so many levels I have a relative who has escaped an abusive relationship.
First of all this guy said he wound up fighting for his life? I cannot fathom how a person brutally attempting to kill his girlfriend counts as a fight. There is no fight it’s a brutal beating and where he was trying to kill her I would think it was battery (not sure if assault and battery) and attempted murder. I would hope that they would lock him away until time can render him harmless, but after seeing how it is usually handled I have no such hope. At least I am guessing there were witnesses to abuse so he can’t fabricate a BS story. I do hope she recovers well without life long injuries.
Whaaa..?
Let me guess: you’re channelling some Deuteronomy, eh?
22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
Remember that, Ladies. If you don’t resist being a victim, then it is your own damn fault.
Jonah Glou
(Emphasis mine.)
That fucking part is your problem. If the victim is blameless and hasn’t done anything wrong, then there’s no reason to wish they acted differently. It wouldn’t have changed things, because–get this–it was their attacker’s fault! So instead of pulling the “helpful pro-tip” bullshit, try aiming it at those that need to change–the abusers.
Story time: I’m a domestic violence survivor with my ex still out there waiting to hunt me down. I’ve heard this same shit from people. Time to face reality, asshole. I couldn’t have avoided it because at first, there’s nothing to avoid except all men. And once you’re in, you’re stuck on an obstacle course set up for you to fail. It’s never just him, but the “justice system”, and society, including friends and family. That little voice in the back of your head even gangs up on you and your body, your reflexes, betrays you too. Just because there’s a joke or as an outsider you see red flags now, means nothing. There are plenty of things like that tattoo that are joked by non-abusive couples, because we are swimming in a culture where such things are supported. You didn’t see how it started, you haven’t been broken down into pieces and reassembled to fit someone else’s ideal victim. I’ll bet like myself and other victims I know, she’s already second guessing herself (abusers program such thoughts and reinforce them for this exact reason) and there’s plenty of people already saying outright that she’s at fault. Do you really think in this context saying “I wish she could’ve avoided it” isn’t victim blaming?
Tell me, then, how could she have avoided it? You can’t say avoid such men because it’s never on the surface, you see abusers as abusers when they have a victim to show and the cover up slips. You don’t see them before because they don’t let that side of themselves show. They are normal people, not monsters or demons.
This isn’t like saying you wish someone wasn’t at the wrong place and wrong time to be the victim of a drunk driver or other such instances. That’s one single moment in time when a domestic violence relationship is completely different. More importantly, society doesn’t blame people for being victims of those things. But they do with domestic violence and rape.
Why is always the victim that gets targeted with this? Why does no one say “He shouldn’t have done that, he should’ve been different”? (I bet your first thought to that last question was “Of course I think that, it goes without saying!” No, no. it doesn’t and that assumption ignores the reality of rape culture/patriarchy/victim blaming. Especially if you wish to change such things, you need to acknowledge reality, and get people to realize it too.) Why analyze her behavior and choices instead of investigating his? Isn’t the latter what needs to worked on? Isn’t the former pointless since she can’t go back in time?
It’s because of toxic masculinity and the othering mentality towards abusers. It’s either “Oh, no he wouldn’t, he’s such a great guy” or “she should’ve see that coming and avoided it”. (how else could you avoid something unless you saw it coming and have time to re-act? She’s suddenly suppose to be psychic or a shut in now?) It’s not fit to change how men* are, it’s women’s job to adapt and survive (or die) in a world that views men as superior animals and us their prey. And that is why, saying such things like a narrator on national geographic is victim blaming.
Your Monday morning quarterbacking does nothing, means nothing, and unless you’re actively fighting the status quo, you’re supporting it. Get your shit together, cross of the statements that come with qualifications, and just stick with the fact that it is not her fault. That’s not being said nearly enough. She’s being dissected by the whole world and you’re chiming in with your own observations as if breaking down a victim again will unlock the key to why such things happen and how to stop it. It won’t, it’s been done enough and nothing has changed but the body count.
——————-
*Victims can be men and women abuses as well, their just hit with the other side of the coin: “women are weak, so man up” and such, which needs to talked about and dealt with, but is not applicable to this OP or conversation. I don’t want it to become all about the menz, yet I don’t want to neglect their existence because society does that, which is a problem.
If you have to start out your comment by saying “I’m not victim blaming…”, please understand why you think you needed that disclaimer. If you honestly didn’t think you were victim-blaming you would not have had to make the statement you weren’t victim-blaming (see also, “I’m not racist, but…”).
If ever you find yourself tempted to start a post like that, read the rest of the post aloud – without the disclaimer – to yourself. If it sounds like victim-blaming…. it is, and a disclaimer isn’t going to change that.
I know I’m becoming a broken record with this South park reference, and I know South park is problematic as fuck and there are very, very few South Park episodes I like. But there’s a South park trilogy I’m in love with called “Coon and Friends” (it has Cthulhu in it. Cthulhu.)
There’s a “superhero” in the trilogy named Captain Hindsight. The superpower that makes him famous (besides flying) is his gift of hindsight. He shows up at the scene of a tragedy (like, say, a burning building with people inside who can’t get out) and basically explains what could have been done to avoid the situation. It’s only the main characters of the show, the little kids, who realize how absolutely useless that is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esXJN_OTkmU
Jonah Glou? You are Captain Hindsight. And, just like the character in the SP trilogy, you are being useless. There’s no point to anything you’re saying. You’re not helping. You’re not actually saying anything that could make this situation better. Everything you say is completely useless.
Don’t do that. Don’t be Captain Hindsight.
I’m going to go back a bit and address this.
I live in/know a lot of people in the Kink world, so this whole “property of X” is something I routinely encounter in relationships amongst people I know (or just know of). This is often a symbol or added level of kink/DS/Power Exchange play, and is not in-of-itself problematic.
It could very well be that when those tattoos were done, it was part of a semi-sexual relationship game. I am not going to speak as to what their relationship was like, and I have no idea what her porn portfolio was about, but I feel kind of safe to say that there might have been some kink/power exchange in their relationship (there is in a lot more relationships than people realise, even if it never goes into full-blown D/s type stuff) and this could have been part of it. This kind of thing can send a nice naughty thrill to go through a person when it’s done, and can be a lot of fun and fantasy!
However, this does not mean that the reasons for Mack getting branded are the same reasons as War Machines wanting to get her branded. While it could have been pitched as just a dirty kind of game by War Machine, his reasoning could have been less sexy fun and more “now she *does* belong to me”.
See, one of the biggest parts of Kink/D/s/Power Exchange games is consent. So, even if War Machine wanted it as a literal badge of his property, Mack could still consent to it as a bit of fun play/tattoo/whatever without *much* issue. The problem of conflating wants do come into play, but that is rendered kind of moot by what happened next.
Now, after the assault, Mack can quite honestly be seen to withdraw any and all consent from their relationship, up to and including (for the slow among the readers) any and all power exchange aspect of it. So, once her consent is gone, War Machines quip of “she’s my property forever” goes from being maybe a sort of kinky fun sexy thing to full out red flag he’s a fucking possessive creep who would quite possibly murder her instead of letting her live her own life.
Her consent is withdrawn, it does not *matter* what the tattoo may or may not say, she is not his property.
my quote was to Jonah Glou, post 69.