The obvious and completely uncontestable fact that #notallmen are rapists doesn’t matter a whit: it only takes one rapist to send a shockwave through hundreds of women.
jamessweetsays
I was thinking about #notallmen and #yesallwomen the other day… I wonder how many men, if they really were honest with themselves and thought about it, could honestly claim #notallmen. How many men, in a society where misogyny and rape culture is so pervasive, can really claim that they’ve NEVER engaged in asshole-ish behavior? It may have been a long time ago, it may have been a mistake, we may have renounced it, but… it’s really REALLY hard claim to have grown up in America (or anywhere in this world) in the last few decades and honestly not have ever treated a woman like crap.
What made me realize this was a friend from high school posted a #yesallwomen about how the first time she was sexually harassed she wasn’t even 13. For a moment, I thought she might have been referring to something I participated in… me and some other boys teasing a girl about allegedly giving her boyfriend a blowjob, and what that supposedly said about her. Then I realized it was a different girl I was thinking of. Which in a way made it worse.
I was barely even a teen when this happened, so it’s not like I’m wracked with guilt about it. I didn’t really understand why it was wrong, and now I do. But can I really claim #notallmen? I’m not so sure… I can definitely claim #notAllMenAtThisMomentNowThatIveLearnedFromMyMistakes, but that’s not quite as catchy a hashtag, is it?
As Margaret Atwood said in 1983, men worry that women will laugh at them. Women worry that men will kill them.
In news that is so routine that it barely even made it out of state, a man was just convicted of 2nd degree murder for beating his girlfriend to death with an iron. His guilt was never in doubt, but his defense was that he just “snapped” in the “heat of argument”. There is a prison inmate who claims that instead, the murderer told him he killed her precisely for the reason that he was worried about being laughed at:
Whittemore said he became so enraged about her possibly breaking up with him that he knocked her out, Camelio testified during the fifth day of Whittemore’s murder trial in Rochester.
As Kogut lay unconscious on her dorm room floor at SUNY Brockport, Whittemore said he sat on a bed to “contemplate” everything, Camelio recalled. Kogut would go on with her life away at college, Whittemore thought to himself, while he would be embarrassed to return to their New Hartford hometown with a broken relationship, Camelio said.
That’s when he grabbed a clothing iron and ended Kogut’s life, Whittemore allegedly told Camelio.
May be we could create a video game in which the player gets to be a woman and try to overcome all the obstacles that come her way just because she has a vagina. It would be hell of an annoying game, but women play it every day. It’s called Real Life.
Seven of Mine, formerly piegasmsays
flatlander100 @ 7
Yes, it really does matter.
To whom and why?
Wolseysays
In response to #4 Jamessweet, I actually think you are on to something. I have the perspective of a transgender guy transitioning in his 40s. The other day I talked over some ladies, without thinking, and then they apologized to me. Not a full on mansplain, but for someone that has lived for 40 years presenting as a woman, and then suddenly being handed a basket of male privilege, it was shocking. I apologized and told them I was the dick, but it made me think I had better watch myself. It’s really easy to walk into that male privilege and just go with it, thoughtlessly. When the world sees you as male, you are afforded more latitude to be an asshole as a matter of course.
In response to #6 Carlie, in that vein, there is a tumblr called When Women Refuse, http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com that collects stories like that. I knew this was a risk for women, but it wasn’t until I looked that tumblr over, and followed it, that the sheer number of women, their friends, mothers, and children killed by angry entitled men because clear to me. This is with me knowing someone that was murdered in my hometown by an angry ex she was trying to leave. I guess with the way society kind of downplays this kind of crime, that I thought it was less prevalent. I was very wrong.
throwawaysays
Holy fuck, there’s a #notallmen hashtag now… Whoever participates in that is a selfish, entitled whiner. They are also completely fucking clueless. Do they think words matter? Do they think that the proactive defensiveness of “But I’m one of the good guys!” actually alleviates anyone’s fears of them especially when the people they encounter do not know that by their words but by their actions, and that no future is certain? Talk about coopting a tragedy to dismiss the realities of those who fear specifically the type of person who commits the atrocities. Or does that finger swing only one way with that charge? I am just disappointed and outraged that there are some people so blinded by their own sexual self-interest they cannot fathom that they do not personally fit into the equation of a woman’s fears.
facepalmsays
I know racial minorities experience some racism, but #NotAllWhitePeople. I am not racist, but by the way, white people go through shit too! We don’t have it easy. We experience racism as well! That white supremacist didn’t kill that African-American man because of his hate-filled ideology, he did it because he was mentally ill!
Oh, and, affirmative action is discrimination against white men! We are so oppressed!
/sarcasm
This is what the hashtag would have looked like if it was about race.
Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thoughtsays
flatlander100,
Of course it matters.
In the sense that when I go out, I know not all men are likely to physically or verbally abuse me.
Wow, that’s a relief. So sure, it matters.
It also matters in the sense that there are men who are going to act the way they should. Meaning, not only not being someone who abuses women but who actively works against abuse or is at least “that guy” who points out that jokes about beating some sense into your wife aren’t even remotely funny.
Now, this second is a tricky one, and actually shows that #notallmen only trivially matters. Yeah, not all men are a danger to me. But the trick is… which ones are? If something happens, will anyone help me? Will I get rape-jokes from the police? Will they assume I’m just making shit up because #notallmen so naturally, not the man I’m accusing?
Note how I put “that guy” in quotes. That’s because “that guy” is the exception, it’s the unfunny mangina, it’s the guy other men and some woman roll their eyes at.
Doesn’t even get a difference between a joke and reality. Except that in reality, men try to beat sense into their wives, sometimes until they end up hospitalized. And then neighbors say He was a good man and I don’t want to get involved in their personal affairs.
So, I’m sorry if your pride is hurt, but if you want to make #notallmen matter, you’ll just have to swallow your complaints for a while there and just be #notallmen.
Hey, I’m still waiting for a day where I can interact professionally with strangers who aren’t interrupting me to ask for my phone number or making inappropriate comments. I can wait. I mean, I kinda have to. You’ll just have to sit tight and wait too.
Wanna tell me your waiting is difficult?
Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thoughtsays
I can’t remember if anyone has already linked to Not-All-Man, the “lone protector of the protected”.
Jackie the wackysays
facepalm,
Not all women have vaginas and those women are still in danger of harassment, rape, abuse and murder. It’s commonplace. For a friend of mine, getting invited to suck random cock or getting some strange man’s junk rubbed on her is just part of her commute to work.
mykroftsays
@jamessweet:4
I can look back on my life, and definitely identify some moments that would qualify me for #notAllMenAtThisMomentNowThatIveLearnedFromMyMistakes.
A shame there isn’t an Assholes Anonymous, for those who recognize they need to change. Probably wouldn’t work though, as being an asshole and being able to recognize you need to change seem to be mutually incompatible states.
tuibguysays
Instead of creating hashtags to try to assure women that we aren’t all brutes, why not take a more effective approach and tell men that they aren’t slaves to misogyny? For all of the things that we tell women they must do to avoid rape; how not to dress, not to drink too much, don’t be friendly to the wrong men, don’t walk in such-and-such place alone, make sure you have a call-buddy to check in with when you get home… why not create a hashtag to put pressure on males to not be brutes and not to rape or sexually harass? Something to tell other men that we are not beasts and can think and reason and be civilized people towards women and, yes, other men? How about a hashtag towards each other such as #mannotbeast ?
No. It does not matter. Because the response “not all X” implicitly ignores what the person they are responding to is saying. It’s all an excuse by people emotionally disturbed by a connection between something they are, and the behavior of another. It’s a defensive reaction that negates someone’s experience.
These complaints about the behavior of men do not actually assume all men as stated. They speak of the person experiencing a behavior that is so significant among men that it shapes their strategic choices when interacting with all men. It’s a group oriented emotional reaction and not an argument or even useful as more than a speed bump slowing needed change.
Louissays
Not all men say “not all men”.
Not all men say “not all men say “not all men””.
Not all men say “not all men say “not all men say “not all men”””
@ throwaway 12
Look on the bright side. These people are showing you what they are for easy identification. They are people that irrationally assume that if someone criticizes someone with a shared characteristic, they must also be getting criticized. That can be used strategically even we are not quite sure how to yet.
mykroftsays
This #notallmen is an interesting approach. Let’s try using it on another problem.
#notallwhitesareracist
There, racism is solved.
D Cartersays
Does it really matter if it’s #notallmen?
Of course it matters. Would you prefer that it were all men? Or even one more man?
And #notallmen probably matters if you are a man (one of millions) who gets pounded anyway for the past week or so for misogyny he doesn’t have, knows fully well is out there, and has in fact worked against. Of course, we should remember that #notallwomen are guilty of such misandry…
And #notallmen probably matters if you are a man (one of millions) who gets pounded anyway for the past week or so for misogyny he doesn’t have, knows fully well is out there, and has in fact worked against.
Emphasis mine. Do you have an example of what you mean? There are several interpretations of this and I want to see what you have in mind.
Nick Gottssays
Anyone interested can get a longer version of D Carter’s whine here. And here. And here.
Back when marital rape was legal (thirty WHOLE years ago!) I’m sure #NotAllMen didn’t rape their wives.
Didn’t matter to the women whose husbands rape them though, because they could not go to the justice system and expect justice.
Now that marital rape is illegal, #NotAllMen rape their wives, but some do, and just a few weeks ago, one of them was let off with no jail time, and admonitions from the judge to the woman about forgiving her rapist ex-husband.
The overall effect is terrorism: the message is sent that women should hesitate to leave their boyfriends or husbands, to refuse sex with them, to anger them in any way, because there is this avenue of punishment that the men can mete out for which they will receive very little legal sanction. The fact that #NotAllMen rape their wives is irrelevant; the judge thought it’s not worth punishing and so the threat is there.
#NotAllMen sexually harass women, but it’s ENOUGH that women live on edge a lot of the time and hold back from participating in public & civic life.
#notallmen? Seriously? If your reaction to women talking about misogyny is to get up and feel the need to delcare “But I’m not like those guys” then I think you are part of the problem.
The Mellow Monkeysays
D Carter @27
And #notallmen probably matters if you are a man (one of millions) who gets pounded anyway for the past week or so for misogyny he doesn’t have, knows fully well is out there, and has in fact worked against. Of course, we should remember that #notallwomen are guilty of such misandry…
The next time I’m experiencing a PTSD episode from my multiple rapes, I’ll be sure to shed a tear for the misandry you’ve suffered from. Stay strong.
D Cartersays
#28: wow. Where have you been?
#29: what you childishly misname “whines” are calls to substitute action for the endemic whining about misogyny here and elsewhere–guess you missed that. I keep asking “so what new things are we going to actually *do* about misogyny?” and we hear are crickets. Complaining and cartoons are fine, but at some point you’re going to have to move from whining and cartoons and STFUs about misogyny to actually, you know, doing something about it. Some of us didn’t wait. You can catch up any time you like.
Seven of Mine, formerly piegasmsays
And #notallmen probably matters if you are a man (one of millions) who gets pounded anyway for the past week or so for misogyny he doesn’t have, knows fully well is out there, and has in fact worked against. Of course, we should remember that #notallwomen are guilty of such misandry…
What the fuck does “gets pounded” even mean and why is it such a serious problem that we need to talk about that instead of talking about the fact that women die on a daily basis as a direct result of misogyny?
I’ve said a couple of times that #notallmen is redundant. We all know that, or at least we should know that. It doesn’t address the problem, it just tries to ignore it.
Entirely unable to read your mind so I can’t tie your emotional generalizations to specifics. Clearly I’m perceiving the situation differently from you so the only thing that helps is specifics from you and not sarcasm.
The first step in solving a problem is identification of the problem. That’s the stage of things we’re at. We still have people denying that sexism exists (let alone misogyny) and that it is a part of every woman’s living experience.
But since you believe that you’re so far beyond the rest of us, please enlighten us about what it is you’re Doing About It. Specifics if you’d be so kind.
Bernard Bumnersays
Complaining and cartoons are fine, but at some point you’re going to have to move from whining and cartoons and STFUs about misogyny to actually, you know, doing something about it.
D Carter, you’ve somehow drawn the erroneous conclusions that:
a) That raising awareness of the issue is not in itself an incredibly effective way of addressing the issue.
b) You know what everyone else is doing about the issue (or as you apparently see it, not doing).
Some of us didn’t wait. You can catch up any time you like.
You may want to consider whether Shut the Fuck Up isn’t a reasonable reaction to an aggressive, nasty, self-congratulatory presentation.
Seven of Mine, formerly piegasmsays
We have had a week of explanations about “why not all mentally ill people”. Is this really so different?
All men are not misogynists, not even the ones who kill their wives or girlfriends, just as not all women are misogynists.
Yes it’s different. We’ve only been talking about “not all mentally ill people” because there has been an endless parade of jackasses demanding that mass murder entails mental illness. #NotAllMen is a derail in the exact same way. It’s not being brought up because these people actually think we mean all men. It’s being brought up to stop us talking about the real issue, i.e. the misogyny.
carliesays
We have had a week of explanations about “why not all mentally ill people”. Is this really so different?
Not all mentally ill people are violent, so please stop trying to pass laws that restrict the rights and freedoms of the mentally ill.
Not all men are misogynists, so please stop… telling men to please be nicer.
Yes. It is really that different.
funknjunksays
@31 Travis — Exactly. I’m a man and I simply cannot understand the men who apparently are so identified by their gender that they CANNOT listen to or participate in the conversation without being reactionary and defensive. I can’t comprehend this. If you aren’t a member of the group being discussed, why are you identifying with that group? I believe it’s because in some cases, they ARE or have been a part of that group, and they either cannot forgive themselves for that or cannot allow their egos to admit it. In others, it’s like a gender tribalism, which I equally cannot comprehend ….
carliesays
Because really, WHAT THE FUCK IS THE PROBLEM YOU THINK THIS IS CAUSING? Let’s pretend that we think that all men are misogynists. Let’s pretend that every single woman on the planet is 100% convinced that every single man on the planet is a raging misogynist.
So?
What’s the result of that? What is it that we actually see happening?
Are women proposing locking up all men and using them only to breed?
Are women lobbying with real dollars to pass laws to restrict the movement of men?
Are women flooding the ranks of judges and passing overly harsh sentences on men?
No.
Women are asking for men to please stop being such assholes.
Women are asking for men to be held accountable for crimes that they actually commit and to the laws that already exist, rather than being let off on the shrug of “men just do that, you can’t hold them responsible for their actions when they’re mad/jealous/embarrassed”.
Women are saying “Guys, don’t do that.”
Ooo. So scary. So awful. So worthy of being fought with every bit of energy. So important that it requires silencing every account of actual misogyny, for fear of being asked to not be an asshole. Great rallying cry you have there.
thetalkingstovesays
Complaining and cartoons are fine, but at some point you’re going to have to move from whining and cartoons and STFUs about misogyny to actually, you know, doing something about it.
Don’t you think women (and many men) would LOVE to do something about misogyny? Unfortunately it’s kinda hard when even pointing it out gets such a strong kickback. What do you think should be happening, exactly?
facepalmsays
Person A: I was sexually harassed by a male co-worker and filed a complaint.
Person B: What? Man-hater! Not all men are like that!
Person A: I was bitten by a dog yesterday and had to go to the hospital.
Person B: What? Dog-hater! Not all dogs are like that!
Y’know, it seems to me that if men wanted to do something other than display their wounded pride, we might see something like #notthatguy, and it would be filled with examples of men who did things like told a friend or acquaintance that “hey, rape jokes are not okay, don’t do that”; “hey, I caught a guy topping drinks, told the women and the bartender” “hey, I called out my buddy for being a sexist git today” “hey, I stopped assholes harassing a woman at the bus stop” and so on.
If men want the message of #notallmen to mean something, they first need to understand that no, women don’t know if they are one of the good guys, there’s no way to know, and it’s often too damn late by the time you find out. If men were busy in the homosocial sphere, paying attention and learning to talk to one another about things that actually matter, then there might be change.
Nick Gottssays
<blockquote.#29: what you childishly misname “whines” are calls to substitute action for the endemic whining about misogyny here and elsewhere–guess you missed that. I keep asking “so what new things are we going to actually *do* about misogyny?” and we hear are crickets. – D Carter
You’re either self-deluded or a liar, D Carter, as anyone who follows my links will see. You spend almost all those comments, and the one above to which I responded, whining about how self-identified non-misogynist men like you are being “beaten up” (you’re not, of course, no-one has laid a finger on you, and your use of this term in this context is insensitive at best). You don’t specify anything you have done to combat misogyny except in the vaguest possible terms, nor do you suggest anything others might do. Of course, there are plenty of things you can do, apart from the purely negative ones, like not derailing threads about misogyny by making it all about you, and refraining from whining about how you are being “beaten up” by women when you’re not. If you hear misogynist statements or jokes from other men, call them out. If a woman you know is a victim of harrassment or worse, support her. If you have a young son, or are otherwise in a position to influence boys and young men away from misogyny, do it. If you can afford it, make a regular donation to a woman-led organization combating misogyny. Boycott businesses that run misogynist advertising and encourage others to do so…
And #notallmen probably matters if you are a man (one of millions) who gets pounded anyway for the past week or so for misogyny he doesn’t have, knows fully well is out there, and has in fact worked against. Of course, we should remember that #notallwomen are guilty of such misandry…
I’m really sorry. I cannot imagine how hard it must be on you to hear all these things. How horrible it must be having to recognize that each and every woman has suffered harassment and sexualt assault at the hands of men.
I am pretty sure that you are a saint. An angel. Completely innocent. I’m 100% convinced that you never laughed at or made a sexist comment, always called out men who cat-called and wolf-whistled, and never ever used gendered insults and stopped others from doing so.
Please accept my sincere apologies.
The next time I leave work late and have to walk over the dark car-park knowing full well that there’s a lot of people who know that I do so every week, I will think of you and remember that I am totally not justified in my fears, because I know that you exist.
We have had a week of explanations about “why not all mentally ill people”. Is this really so different?
All men are not misogynists, not even the ones who kill their wives or girlfriends, just as not all women are misogynists.
Yes they are different. The context of “Not all X” is a response to people saying that they experience a significant number of X engaging in behavior that they have to take into account strategically.
The context of “why not all mentally ill people” is meant to demonstrate that the need to rationalize the misogynistic trash’s actions as mental illness is irrational. Literally not in evidence (and thus not via reason) and thus an emotional reaction meant to make the person appealing to mental illness either feel better about people in general, misogyny, men with really shitty beliefs and actions about women, or meant to deemphasize whatever the person talking about their experiences is trying to draw attention to.
“Not all X” is just an emotional reaction saying “I’m not like that”, when the person they are responding to is not actually saying that all X is like that.
throwawaysays
The D stands for Douchebag, right?
Jackie the wackysays
If you aren’t a member of the group being discussed, why are you identifying with that group? I believe it’s because in some cases, they ARE or have been a part of that group,
We have had a week of explanations about “why not all mentally ill people”. Is this really so different?
carlie
Not all mentally ill people are violent,
So true.
Even more so, very, very few mentally ill people are violent. Those who can be labeled as “violent” are not generally violent, but simply refuse to be restrained. Those who can be violent generally towards others are not directing their violence with an agenda. With the very, very few who do have a particular target for their violence, the target is frequently imagined, and the actual people targeted are not actually enemy combatants or reptilians or assassins sent by the Pope, etc.
I don’t know why people cannot get it through their heads that regardless as to whether Rodger was mentally ill or not, his problem was misogyny and racism.
And comparing this with “not all men” is a huge false equivalence issue. And it isn’t an important distinction even if these two things were remotely equivalent. There is a huge privilege disparity between neurotypical men and people labeled as mentally ill.
Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thoughtsays
Fascinating.
What about the menz in its purest form.
wirebashsays
I’m new here, I may introduce myself later in a lounge thread. I want to share my thoughts on this:
There seem to be some differences between America and my country, and the teachings of Christians relating to women. I’ll try to give an accurate account of the attitude towards women that I’ve experienced in my years as Christian.
At school we were always told that it is NOT OK to touch someone else’s ‘private zones’, and that we should report incidents to our parents, teachers, the police, whoever.
Sex-ed was quite comprehensive, although abstinence before marriage was emphasized. The other thing that was emphasized – and it’s a good thing – was that you shouldn’t do anything you do not feel comfortable with, with regard to sexuality. In summary, I think women were aware that they had rights and autonomy with regard to sexuality.
That’s the only time women’s rights were emphasized. Women had very little autonomy in every other respect. They ought to marry, stay home and do the housekeeping, have children and wear silly hats. Because that’s how God intended it to be. And why else would they have bodies that are ‘intelligently designed’ to do ‘girly things’?…
At the time, all that seemed completely normal to me. None of the girls seemed to mind. (I don’t know if they really didn’t know better or if they didn’t want/dare to speak up.) They didn’t seem to mind if we made fun of them for being girls. They took no offence. They went along with the gender stereotypes.
I now try to treat everyone as equal. I try to stop categorizing people as male/female and see them all as simply ‘human’. This has helped me to be comfortable with guys acting ‘girly’ and girls acting ‘manly’. I’ve discovered that thinking in terms of gender/sex is NOT is not helpful when reflecting on other peoples’ behavior.
It occurs to me that either most women are not aware of the fact that they are being mistreated, or they are aware but do not speak out. But I know for a fact that I was, from a religious background, brought up to treat women as if they are not also a human, like I am. As if there’s a big difference between genders. And it seems to me that most people are unaware that they’re making a distinction when in reality, there is none.
Of course, there are physical differences between man and women. But even those are always irrelevant. They are irrelevant when hiring. It makes no sense to refuse a job to a woman because ‘she may become pregnant’. As if there are no other situations where your body is unable to work for an employer. As if there is in this sense a difference between a childbirth and a severe illness. Moreover, in our modern world, women can decide whether they want to become pregnant or not. We have more control over when we reproduce than over when we are ill.
There is no excuse for treating women as if they are different, and there is no reason to treat them as if they are different.
To answer the question in the post title:
No, not all men are misogynists. But that doesn’t matter. The problem is that society at large IS misogynistic, and we’re all part of that society. That is the problem and I think we should focus on that, and not on some poorly worded and/or misinterpreted twittertwit.
That is the problem and I think we should focus on that, and not on some poorly worded and/or misinterpreted twittertwit.
We do focus on that, or at least we try to focus on that, however, we consistently run up against the walls of “what about the menz!?” and “not all men are like that!, how can you defend Schroedinger’s Rapist?” and “this privilege stuff is all bullshit!” and “all you wimmin want to do is whine, why don’t you do something about it?” and “Feminazis!” and…the list goes on.
#notallmen might seem a minor thing to you, however, it isn’t. It’s yet another symptomatic reaction, one which shows how many men just aren’t getting it.
Steve LaBonnesays
What I’ve felt the last week is sick, first about the horrible event itself and then about all the disgusting reactions. What I sure as shit haven’t felt is “beaten up”. Guys- if you think it’s all about you, it may be time to take a long, hard look in the mirror.
Misogyny is being defended all over the place. Perhaps #notallmen would like to have a chat with a bunch of people about it.
thetalkingstovesays
Yeah, I don’t get the ‘beaten up’ thing.
How hard is to understand that when women talk about their experiences they are not saying ‘hey YOU! Steve! Yeah, you specifically! THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT!’
If you’re a man hearing about the shitty things that other men do, the correct reaction is sympathy/support, not indignation and hurt feelings. No one is accusing you personally of anything!
chigau (違う)says
D Carter actually said “pounded”.
He might have meant “lynched”.
I understand the power words have, I know they can hurt, and I know it can be difficult to not take things personally. All that said, as someone who was badly beaten in the course of a rape, I don’t like it casually used by those who are upset by things people have written.
D Carter actually said “pounded”.
He might have meant “lynched”.
Perhaps he meant witch hunt. We haven’t heard that one in a while.
Jackie the wackysays
Complaining and cartoons are fine, but at some point you’re going to have to move from whining and cartoons and STFUs about misogyny to actually, you know, doing something about it.
Raising consciousness about a problem and fighting back against those who try to silence those who do so IS doing something about it.
..and Christ on a rubber crutch, people get pushback in the form of harassment, defamation and blacklisting just for doing that.
Jackie the wackysays
Yep, women talking about the misogyny that often leads to them being abused, raped and murdered at the hands of men is exactly like women brutally beating men.
Exactly.
Will no one think of the man feels?
Let’s all stop talking about how the leading cause of death for women is men and talk about how unfair discussing that fact is to men.
Raising consciousness about a problem and fighting back against those who try to silence those who do so IS doing something about it.
Just once, instead of hearing a man telling us to do something, I’d like to see a man (or better, men), relating how much consciousness raising they are doing, especially in homosocial spheres.
I still wanna know what D is “doing about it”. Seems to me that the way to address bad thinking and social behavior is to counter it by making it known that this is not desirable, and show what better thinking an behavior is like. And I rather think that is what is being done. Some people have been engaged in that fight for years and taken shit for it every step of the way.
I wonder if D gets pounded with mockery and threats of violence and rape for being D on the internet and speaking out. I’ve seen again and again that women do, while of course taking the same background sexism as well as the retributive misogyny for speaking out in atomspace as well as bitspace.
I’m hearing them crickets, D. I’m not so sure they are saying what you think they are saying.
Of course it matters. Would you prefer that it were all men? Or even one more man?
And #notallmen probably matters if you are a man (one of millions) who gets pounded anyway for the past week or so for misogyny he doesn’t have, knows fully well is out there, and has in fact worked against. Of course, we should remember that #notallwomen are guilty of such misandry…
As a man, I don’t think it matters (and if it does, it’s so trivial that it’s pointless to mention). The point of #yesallwomen is to show that this is shit that all women deal with (even the ones who think they’ve never been affected by sexism and misogyny). It is not about pointing a finger at all men and saying “All men are guilty of crimes against women”*.
*truth be told, given how sexism is woven into the culture of the US (and more than likely all over the globe), the vast majority of men have likely engaged in sexist behavior. Note, I’m not saying the vast majority of men have engaged in _misogynistic_ behavior.
Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)says
I was thinking about #notallmen and #yesallwomen the other day… I wonder how many men, if they really were honest with themselves and thought about it, could honestly claim #notallmen. How many men, in a society where misogyny and rape culture is so pervasive, can really claim that they’ve NEVER engaged in asshole-ish behavior?
I’m suddenly reminded of the youth preachers who hang out in malls and ask passing teenagers if they think they’re “a good person.”
I don’t think introducing a pseudo-Original Sin mindset is a useful way of addressing this. “Yes, AND….?!” seems like an adequate response to “not ALL men” to me. >.>
Of course, we should remember that #notallwomen are guilty of such misandry…
D Carter– misandry? Really? There are likely some individual women who display contempt or hatred of men, but it’s nothing like institutionalized, been-around-for-millenia misogyny. Contempt and/or hatred for women is woven into the social fabric. Rape Culture and Anti-choice/”pro-life” advocates are two examples. Both result in the dehumanization of women. There’s no counterpart to misogyny. You can take your whining and go away.
___
I absolutely *love* the fact that my laptop’s spellcheck doesn’t recognize the word ‘misandry’….
Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)says
Y’know, it seems to me that if men wanted to do something other than display their wounded pride, we might see something like #notthatguy, and it would be filled with examples of men who did things like told a friend or acquaintance that “hey, rape jokes are not okay, don’t do that”; “hey, I caught a guy topping drinks, told the women and the bartender” “hey, I called out my buddy for being a sexist git today” “hey, I stopped assholes harassing a woman at the bus stop” and so on.
Would this not just be blown of as “wanting a cookie” then? (I’m actually 95% serious).
Just once, instead of hearing a man telling us to do something, I’d like to see a man (or better, men), relating how much consciousness raising they are doing, especially in homosocial spheres.
I’m not exactly a public figure, but I’ve lost a few Facebook “friends” in the last week because I refused to let their bullshit slide. Generally, the entre to the discussion has been either gun control or mental illness as root cause of everything bad, but it always, always results in a “how dare you bring up misogyny? totes irrelevant!”. I may finally overcome my Twitter-phobia just so I can retweet (and lend just a bit more weight to trending algorithms) what other people say.
And, FWIW, I draw heavily on the resources I’ve been exposed to/led to reading here and similar venues. Thanks all.
Oh, and finally, I can make my own damn cookies, so don’t give me any*. I just wanted to share in response to Inaji’s comment.
* The appreciation I get from women AND men for being “rude” and “resorting to character attacks” is approbation enough.
I’m not exactly a public figure, but I’ve lost a few Facebook “friends” in the last week because I refused to let their bullshit slide.
Thank you. I know it’s really tough for men to speak out, but once one man does, it seems other men will do the same. Of course, that never seems to outweigh the amount of shit you get.
neuroguysays
At the risk of stating the reaaaaaly obvious:
Of course it doesn’t matter to the woman that it’s notallmen, since it only takes one.
Of course it does matter to a man that it’s notallmen, since he doesn’t want to be accused of something he’s not guilty of.
Or maybe it shouldn’t. Maybe we should just give fuck-all about what women think, and just do the right thing because it’s the right thing.
Yes, it probably would be, by a lot of people, and I find that problematic.
That’s one of things I’ve thought about when relating stories over in the Lounge. Some people may think I’ve told them so that I “can get a cookie”, but others may see a guy relating a story as an example of what more men need to do. When I weigh the two, relating my story is more important (to me) than worrying how people will interpret what I’m saying (plus if there’s any confusion, people can ask questions).
PatrickGsays
Of course, that never seems to outweigh the amount of shit you get.
#NotAllMen fail to appreciate how much more shit women get. :)
When I weigh the two, relating my story is more important (to me) than worrying how people will interpret what I’m saying
I applaud that decision, Tony. It really is important for men to speak up more, AK and AFK, and I think we all need to be more receptive on that front. Dismissing such actions as wanting a cookie aren’t helpful, and will make people less likely to speak up.
Of course it doesn’t matter to the woman that it’s notallmen, since it only takes one.
This is true. Women have no way of knowing which guy is going to sexually assault them and which one isn’t.
Of course it does matter to a man that it’s notallmen, since he doesn’t want to be accused of something he’s not guilty of.
I disagree. I’m a guy. I’ve don’t sexually assault or harass women. I’m part of the ‘not all men’, but I don’t think there’s a point to bringing that up. “What about me” in a discussion of this shit women deal with on a daily basis does nothing but derail and make it about the menz. That’s not helpful.
If you’re “not that guy”, then the #yesallwomen hashtag does not refer to you. #Yesallwomen does not mean “yes all women are sexually harassed or assaulted by *all* men”.
Or maybe it shouldn’t. Maybe we should just give fuck-all about what women think, and just do the right thing because it’s the right thing.
Part of the problem is men not giving a shit about what women think, so no, I don’t think this attitude is right and I really can’t believe you thought this added something to the discussion.
carliesays
I understand the power words have, I know they can hurt, and I know it can be difficult to not take things personally. All that said, as someone who was badly beaten in the course of a rape, I don’t like it casually used by those who are upset by things people have written.
The one decent contribution that fucking asshole rapist wannabe murderer Hugo Schwyzer has made to society is his “Words are not fists” essay. Here is a link to it that is at the good men project, but is through do not link so it won’t show up as traffic. Here are the relevant excerpts if you don’t want to wade through the whole essay.
I’ve also remembered an incident from a women’s studies class of mine many years ago. It was a typical course: perhaps 30 women and 6 men. Most of the guys had been quiet all semester long. But one (there is often such a one) was a talker. “Kevin” liked to stir the proverbial pot; a member of the college’s forensics team, he was a skilled debater who liked to argue. Many of his female classmates argued back, not infrequently getting the better of him, which spurred Kevin to try even harder to instigate arguments. One day, Kevin came to class with a duffel bag. I thought little of it, until—in the midst of a discussion about men and feminism—he reached into the duffle and pulled out a football helmet. “I know I’m gonna get killed for what I’m about to say,” he announced dramatically. “I brought some protection.” Kevin then strapped the helmet on as his classmates and I stared in shock. I told him to cut out the cheap theatrics, but not before he’d made a powerful point, though I’m confident it wasn’t the one he intended to make. Kevin’s gag with the football helmet was designed to send a signal about women and anger. The message he wanted to send was, as he told me later, that “feminists take things too seriously and get too aggressive.” The message he actually sent was that men will go to great lengths to try and short-circuit women’s attempts at serious conversation. The helmet was an effort to label those attempts as “male-bashing” or “man-hating.” The hope was that it would shame uppity feminists into biting back their anger; of course, Kevin only ended up inflaming the situation. In less dramatic ways, I’ve seen men use this same tactic again and again.[…]
All of this behavior reflects two things: men’s genuine fear of being challenged and confronted, and the persistence of the stereotype of feminists as being aggressive, wrathful, “man-bashers.” The painful thing about all this, of course, is that no man is in any real physical danger on the internet—or even in real life—from feminists. Women are regularly beaten and raped, but I know of no instance where a man found himself a victim of violence for making a sexist remark in a feminist setting! “Male-bashing” doesn’t literally happen, in other words, at least not as a result of arguments over feminism. But that doesn’t stop men from using (in jest or no) their own exaggerated fear of physical violence to make a subtle point about feminists. There’s a conscious purpose to this sort of behavior. Joking about getting pelted (or putting on the football helmet) sends a message to women in the classroom—and online: “Tone it down. Take care of the men and their feelings. Don’t scare them off, because too much impassioned feminism is scary for guys.” And you know, as exasperating as it is, this kind of silencing language almost always works. Time and again, I’ve seen it work to silence women in the classroom, or at least cause them to worry about how to phrase things “just right” so as to protect the guys and their feelings. It’s a key anti-feminist strategy, even if that isn’t the actual intent of the men doing it—it forces women to become conscious caretakers of their male peers by subduing their own frustration and anger. It reminds young women that they should strive to avoid being one of those “angry feminists” who (literally) scare men off and drive them away.
PatrickG:
I also speak up on Facebook about social justice issues in general-and very often about feminism. I haven’t engaged in many debates, but just putting forth my thoughts lets people know that there’s one more guy out there that will speak out. I’m glad to hear that you’re doing much the same.
As for cookies, well I can’t make them very well (I always succeed in burning the bottoms), but I can run to the store and buy some. I pretty much feel the same way you do :)
Would this not just be blown of as “wanting a cookie” then? (I’m actually 95% serious).
I think it depends
Are they doing this to assure women taht they’re “nice guys”?
or are they talking to other guys, raising awareness, educating them?
That could be good
Maybe we should just give fuck-all about what women think, and just do the right thing because it’s the right thing.
Doing the right thing would also include believing that yes, women are full human beings, and placing your focus on doing the right thing by all people. You’re still focused on “eh, fuck women and what they think.” If you don’t even stop to consider what sort of stuff half the population has to deal with, you aren’t equipped to do the right thing.
This “not all men” thing baffles me. I know that not all people are thieves, but I still lock my doors because enough of them are.
PatrickGsays
@Neuroguy:
Maybe we should just give fuck-all about what women think, and just do the right thing because it’s the right thing.
Except it’s rather hard to figure out what the right thing is if you don’t listen to what women have to say, innit? If you don’t, how can you possibly know if your behavior harms women?
@Tony: I said I CAN make cookies. I didn’t say I ACTUALLY make cookies. Store-bought ftw.
or are they talking to other guys, raising awareness, educating them?
That could be good
Yep, that. More and more and more of that, please. Talk about privilege. Talk about sexism. Talk about entitlement. Talk about assault. Talk about not being assholes. Talk about rape. Talk about harassment.
Seven of Mine, formerly piegasmsays
Or maybe it shouldn’t. Maybe we should just give fuck-all about what women think, and just do the right thing because it’s the right thing.
Because what women think about what you’re doing is totally irrelevant to whether it’s the right thing to do.
*sigh*
pensnestsays
Y’know, it seems to me that if men wanted to do something other than display their wounded pride, we might see something like #notthatguy, and it would be filled with examples of men who did things like told a friend or acquaintance that “hey, rape jokes are not okay, don’t do that”; “hey, I caught a guy topping drinks, told the women and the bartender” “hey, I called out my buddy for being a sexist git today” “hey, I stopped assholes harassing a woman at the bus stop” and so on.
Four years ago, there was a LiveJournal thread which asked for this very thing—examples of men doing the right thing. It got over 4,000 comments. People did chime in with examples of men getting it right. And a depressing number of the commenters said something along the lines of, you know, it seems kinda wrong to say he was wonderful for acting like a default decent human being. And then, of course, there were the Other comments, but that was to be expected.
pensnest:
Thanks for that link.
The opening of that post is quite relevant:
There is a point in discussions of rape, when the discussion turns from the particular to the systemic, when the idea that, for example, many cultures have a value system that makes men believe they are fundamentally entitled to women’s bodies (or time or attention, but mostly bodies), when the exceptionism starts to come out. Say it with me, now: not all men are like that.
And of course, they’re not. But you know what? Too damn many of you are, and too damn many of you can be in the right circumstances. And I’m not going to apologize for saying that.
Jackie the wackysays
… he doesn’t want to be accused of something he’s not guilty of.
ahem…
If you aren’t a member of the group being discussed, why are you identifying with that group? I believe it’s because in some cases, they ARE or have been a part of that group,
Jackie the wackysays
If you think women refusing to keep silent about their lived experiences = accusing you of something, I’m gonna go ahead and assume there is a reason for that.
And a depressing number of the commenters said something along the lines of, you know, it seems kinda wrong to say he was wonderful for acting like a default decent human being.
Yeah. And that’s a serious problem, which impedes men going the consciousness raising route. I think we all need to realize that it’s relatively new for men, and yes, they could use some support. I remember how things were in the late ’60s and early ’70s, when it was difficult for women to engage in consciousness raising.
Jackie:
I think he’s trying to tell us that he’s part of the problem. Or at least that how I interpret his attempts to derail this conversation with “what about the menz”.
Jackie the wackysays
Tony,
That was my take away from his comments.
Seven of Mine, formerly piegasmsays
The consequences men face for speaking up are nothing like what women face but, in many environments, it’s far from risk-free. It’s one thing to maybe not actively congratulate guys for showing minimal decency but it’s entirely another to go out of your way to announce that they’re getting no “cookies” from you. That attitude has always made me cringe.
Maybe we should just give fuck-all about what women think, and just do the right thing because it’s the right thing.
This isn’t actually going to help.
And, of course, we haven’t forgotten that neuroguy actually agrees with the MRA/PUA concept of “hypergamy,” thinks that rich and powerful men monopolize women as if they are all part of a hive mind, and has this bizarre idea that people have the “right to sexual contact,” and won’t give up this idea despite being corrected on his inaccurate definition of what legal right actually means, and despite the care and effort people put into thinking out the logical implications of “sexual contact” being an actual right when he was unwilling to or incapable of thinking through these consequences himself.
You’re really not equipped to participate in discussions about women’s rights and feminism, neuroguy, as the remark I quoted above demonstrates.
Also, re: cookies: I mostly find myself denying them to men for simply refraining from assaulting or raping anybody.
Men speaking up against misogyny and calling out other men for sexist/misogynist remarks is something I greatly appreciate.
Juliana Ewingsays
Can we please leave Hugo Fucking Schwyzer out of this? There has to be some decent guy who’s said essentially the same thing.
carliesays
Juliana Ewing – I’d love to find another source that says the same thing. That’s why I tried to eliminate making any actual connection to a source related to him in my comment.
Juliana Ewing @ 99, the post is up, and Carlie gave it an appropriate prologue. It may well reach people who aren’t interested in listening to us.
neuroguysays
@88:
Because what women think about what you’re doing is totally irrelevant to whether it’s the right thing to do.
Yep. Let’s try this one on for size:
Because what men think about what you’re doing is totally irrelevant to whether it’s the right thing to do.
You’d enthusiastically agree, and you’d be right.
Look, posters keep complaining about men wanting “cookies” for doing the right thing; or well maybe, not for just being a decent human, but maybe for more. Now I say that men shouldn’t care about that at all, and just do the right thing because it’s the right thing. Apparently you do think female approval/disapproval should be a key motivating factor. I disagree. If you think men need this to do the right thing then you can be rightly termed a “misandrist”.
@97:
Actually, I think if we got beyond superficialities, we might actually agree on some things. At least I would hope so. But it is going to be necessary to make some distinctions. Now if you disagree with what I actually think, then so be it. But that you disagree with strawmen that means nothing at all to me. Same if you’re too intellectually lazy to make those distinctions. The MRA/PUA concept of “hypergamy” encompasses an instinct or drive in women. Saying that rich and powerful men dominate the mating scene, as I did, says something about them, and about our culture, not necessarily about women. The concept of “right” is nowhere near as black-and-white as you make it. I could strawman your argument just as easily as you do mine. I could claim that your “right to be free from sexual assault” means that the government is going to force someone to be your bodyguard and expect that person to suffer any and all violence to prevent an assault on you, and therefore your claimed right violates the bodily integrity of others. You did think about these consequences, right, about the “logical implications” of your claimed right? Of course, this strawman is just as silly as yours.
Steve LaBonnesays
The “MRA/PUA concept of hypergamy” encompasses a very smelly load of old misogynist crap.
zenlikesays
102 neuroguy
Apparently you do think female approval/disapproval should be a key motivating factor. I disagree. If you think men need this to do the right thing then you can be rightly termed a “misandrist”.
Or a “realist”, because reality agrees with her: apparently most men do need this kind of motivation, otherwise society would already have been much less toxic. It isn’t.
chigau (違う)says
If rich and powerful men dominate the mating scene, why are they only 1% of the population?
facepalmsays
A person has a right to live. The government can’t proved bodyguards, therefore, that person loses the right not to be murdered.
LOGIC!
facepalmsays
provide*
neuroguy is so full of shit. Can’t he be banned?
Steve LaBonnesays
By the way, spouting bullshit in boldface only makes you look like an even bigger jackass.
I don’t mind passing out a few cookies if it will help to boost the signal. Sure, human decency ought to be the default, but sadly it ain’t–or at least appears not to be because it’s going about its business way too quietly.
I don’t mind passing out a few cookies if it will help to boost the signal. Sure, human decency ought to be the default, but sadly it ain’t–or at least appears not to be because it’s going about its business way too quietly.
Look, posters keep complaining about men wanting “cookies” for doing the right thing; or well maybe, not for just being a decent human, but maybe for more. Now I say that men shouldn’t care about that at all, and just do the right thing because it’s the right thing.
Men shouldn’t care about getting complimented for doing the right thing, but we need to listen to women. If we don’t, how do we know what the right thing to do is?
Case in point: I never thought about how important it was for me, as a man, to speak out against sexism until it was mentioned by Inaji a while ago. But in listening to what she had to say (which was an extension of what she thinks), I realized that was the right thing to do. To do the right thing, I had to listen to what a woman was telling me. I continue to do that because it’s the right thing to do, not because I want compliments or thanks.
I fucking hope you get it this time.
loopyjsays
I think it matters a whole lot, because only men can stop male-on-female violence by a) knocking that shit the hell off, b) holding other men accountable and making assault/harassment/male-supremacy unacceptable, and c) standing up and repudiating the patriarchal macho misogynistic bullshit culture that they help maintain and propagate.
loopyj:
I get what you mean, but when women discuss the various ways they’ve been harassed and/or assaulted by men, I don’t think it matters that all men don’t do that. They’re not talking about those men.
Hortansays
Great thread, I have saved it for showing to friends when their MRA starts showing.
loopyjsays
@114
What I did mean was that in addition to men needing to accept that YesAllWomen is a reality, they need to do more than just be NotAllMen. The ‘men who don’t do that’ still participate in a culture that encourages toxic masculinity, applauds the harassment and assault of women and girls and yet attempts to diminishes it as just a little harmless fun.
Seven of Mine, formerly piegasmsays
neuroguy @ 102
Yep. Let’s try this one on for size:
Because what men think about what you’re doing is totally irrelevant to whether it’s the right thing to do.
You’d enthusiastically agree, and you’d be right.
Is it hard work being as obtuse as you?
Men are half the human population of the world, as are women. If half the human population of the world thinks what I’m doing is harmful, that is very relevant to whether what I’m doing is the right thing to do.
Look, posters keep complaining about men wanting “cookies” for doing the right thing; or well maybe, not for just being a decent human, but maybe for more. Now I say that men shouldn’t care about that at all, and just do the right thing because it’s the right thing. Apparently you do think female approval/disapproval should be a key motivating factor. I disagree. If you think men need this to do the right thing then you can be rightly termed a “misandrist”.
Saying you shouldn’t do the right thing to receive compliments or “cookies” is not the same as saying you shouldn’t care what half the population of the world thinks of your actions. If half the population of the world disapproves of your actions, they probably have a reason for that and you should give a shit about what it is. If you don’t, you’re (minimally) a fucking asshole.
theoreticalgrrrlsays
@wirebash
“none of the girls seemed to mind. (I don’t know if they really didn’t know better or if they didn’t want/dare to speak up.) They didn’t seem to mind if we made fun of them for being girls. They took no offence.”
When you’re a girl you hear those comments so often that you start to tune it out. It becomes like white noise.
PatrickGsays
@ SallyStrange, 110:
Thanks for illustrating my point, neuroguy. I’ll be in the corner, smirking.
I’ll be in the corner, checking whether my jaw is broken from dropping so far it hit the floor.
@Neuroguy:
Apparently you do think female approval/disapproval should be a key motivating factor. I disagree.
You idiot, we think the opinions of women on subjects that directly involve women is relevant. You don’t. As a man, I will now proceed to disregard everything you say because you’re a blithering idiot.
I’ll also note in passing that a woman do occasionally say things that fall outside the binary range of “approval/disapproval”. Shocking, I know.
Seriously, dude, be careful. Waving that level of stupidity around is all fun and games until you give your government provided bodyguard a black eye.
@Inaji (here and there), I am thankful for your presence here. In response to your wish to hear what men are doing, I want to share what my most used response is now when I hear, as I still occasionally do (I don’t get out much) a slur regarding the autonomy of women or somebody’s natural preference in gender attraction or any other cut at individual choices regarding religion or lack of it, regarding joining or not joining, and so forth. I was a stay-at-home dad with my little ones and one Fall day my boy and girl were getting ready to go out and play on the yard. My daughter pulled on her coat and my son chose not to…. I was on the phone with a dear friend who is a child advocate and stopped her for a sec to say to my son, Hey, put on your coat before going out; it’s chilly! My friend on the phone said, Mind your manners. Let him go as he pleases and if he’s cold, he’ll come for his coat. That simple message kind of changed me in ways and now that is what I tell men who want to decide things for others. I ask them if they have a child and then I tell them this story. One of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves and others is to let one another be. I have had men accuse me of not caring enough and being too weak, suggest that I might let my kids run in front of a bus. I don’t give a hoot that they have to suffer about my love of my kid’s freedom, his autonomy. He is a smart boy and he’ll figure it all out. Thank-you for what you have said here, Inaji, and I am sorry that you have been hurt in your life, that you have to know first-hand what it is like to be raped, hated and beaten. You seem very strong to me. When reading among these posts from men, I find myself thinking that many men feel harmed in being included among other men who harm others. And it is important to look at our choices just then, in-offense, or in reaction. Some men feel it is necessary to start advocacy groups for men and boys because they are feeling that men are being harmed by those who hurt women as a matter of course. They focus on themselves as if they are being slighted or unappreciated somehow. Being an atheist/believer does not free a man from the harm done in their own lives and their reactionary defensiveness in the challenge of another’s pain. Misogyny is a horribly real part of the life of all men. Some of us confront it and reject it whenever we are aware it is present. But we need to listen carefully to women and shut the fuck up while feelings are being expressed, not form men’s groups and advocate against so-called male bashing and ‘liberal/left’ propaganda. One does not correct the fear/hatred of woman by starting a men’s group. One begins to listen and believe, not deny. That is the beginning! Solomon Burke is a man who knows that some of us are harmed and some of us not free. This is what an admirable man does about his pain of knowing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cou_qZjc_yI
Suidosays
D Carter #27:
And #notallmen probably matters if you are a man (one of millions) who gets pounded anyway for the past week or so for misogyny he doesn’t have, knows fully well is out there, and has in fact worked against. Of course, we should remember that #notallwomen are guilty of such misandry…
I’m a man, one of billions in fact, who knows full well about misogyny and works against it. I didn’t get “pounded” in the past week, though. I’m not even sure what you mean by “pounded”. Could you please be more specific?
Your question in #33 about where I’ve been was an interesting one. I’m not on twitter, so I missed out on any twitter “pounding”. I was on facebook and various blogs, but didn’t receive any “pounding” on any of them either.
I did interact with hundreds of women face to face throughout the week and I didn’t notice any misandry at all. I had an excellent conversation with a couple of women on Thursday about the different types of sexism that female lawyers and engineers experience in their respective workplaces, and neither of the two women made me feel like the sexism we were discussing was my fault.
Maybe only the best allies trigger those responses, maybe I’m not fighting misogyny as well as you do?
Could you please explain how I can have intentions as good as yours, so I can experience some good old feminist poundings and misandric backlashes? They sound really exciting and worth experiencing.
theoreticalgrrrlsays
@Ibis3, Let’s burn some bridges
I didn’t mean it doesn’t affect us. It does, especially because it is so normal.
I have an older cousin who used to rather cruelly verbally and emotionally abuse me since I can remember. Once when I was about 16, she was doing what she always does, just ripping into me while we were watching some home movies. Later it dawned on me that while she was doing this, I barely noticed it or reacted at all, but I felt the pain of it. It’s kind of like being stabbed your whole life that it becomes so normal someone can stab you while you’re watching TV and it doesn’t even distract you. You can just keep watching TV while being stabbed, feel the pain, but not react at all.
Suidosays
neuroguy #102
Saying that rich and powerful men dominate the mating scene, as I did, says something about them, and about our culture, not necessarily about women.
Whut. In the middle of your entire post of whut, this piece of whut stood out to me.
Explain how rich and powerful men and dominating the billions of relationships that don’t involve rich and powerful men. Like my relationship with my partner, or the relationships of anyone I know, or lesbian relationships.
Should I be worried that a rich and powerful man is going to steal away my partner? We live together and have swapped rings, so you could say it’s getting pretty serious, but perhaps I should hide my partner away so she’ll never meet any rich and powerful men? That would mean she’d have to quit her job, some of her colleagues are pretty rich and powerful and male.
I’d hate to lose her to some rich, powerful man that just totally dominates me to the extent that she’d forget about how much fun we have together, shared interests, great sex and deep emotional connection.
If I wasn’t laughing so hard, I might be worried about a panic attack.
Suidosays
*Explain how rich and powerful men ARE dominating etc.
Hail tpoys.
theoreticalgrrrlsays
@Suido
I think when he says women, he means those creatures in Victoria’ Secret catalogs and runway shows. The non-Victoria’s Secret model creatures don’t qualify.
Yeah. I knew how you meant it (which is why I said “so true”). I was just expanding on it for wirebash’s benefit. Your story is a very good illustration of how we normalise abuse and even violence when it happens consistently.
Another aspect of the type of ongoing abuse girls endure is that as girls they are also conditioned to be complacent about it: be “nice” be “polite” “don’t make waves” “don’t draw attention to yourself” “don’t be selfish” “if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all” “he isn’t being mean, he just likes you” and so on. And if they venture to say something, whatever happens becomes their fault, not that of the perpetrators of the abuse. It’s no wonder* that the misogynists have so many women apologists.
*though I still wonder (and gape, and get nauseated, and get angry) every time one hops up on her douchebro-supplied platform.
Suido:
You’ve got me in stitches here!
Keep it up.
procrastinatorordinairesays
@122 Suido
I’m a man, one of billions in fact, who knows full well about misogyny and works against it.
I am also a man, and I am a misandrist. I have a group of male friends who I love very much, but most of those friendships were formed twenty years ago or more. On first contact, I distrust men. I do not seek male company, nor do I desire it in any way. There is nothing that men can do to change that. I will always feel happier and more at ease in female company.
It seems a fair assumption that the same applies to misogynists. You may be able to stop them saying hateful things, but how are you going to change the way they feel? How do you stop someone from hating or distrusting women?
procrastinatorordinairesays
It’s no wonder* that the misogynists have so many women apologists.
There appears to be an unspoken assumption that all misogynists are male. Women are just as prone to misogyny as men are.
You may be able to stop them saying hateful things, but how are you going to change the way they feel? How do you stop someone from hating or distrusting women?
A good place to start is to make it socially unacceptable to spout hateful things.
That’s just a starting point, but it’s a good one, that’s proven effective.
Snoofsays
procrastinatorordinaire @130
How do you stop someone from hating or distrusting women?
A good way is not teaching them to hate or distrust women in the first place. Often this involves raising them around people who don’t hate or distrust women, and where misogynists don’t get to spread their hate and distrust unchallenged.
Philipsays
I keep seeing that #NotAllMen hash-tag and it’s bugged me from the beginning, so I felt I needed to turn it around the other way (reposting here a tweet I made the other day):
* In USA this week: yoga pants ok rape, violence on Atl subway, multi. killing? #NotAllMen listen to #YesAllWomen like we should: do better!
Implicit in the “not all” part is that some fit into each of the sets. I think it’s much more important to talk about how not all men even try to listen or try to respect and hold equal roughly half of the population of the planet (to refer to but one set too often marginalized).
procrastinatorordinairesays
@132 Tony
Well, I guess it has something to do with the fact that there has been nary a mention of misogyny here where it was not attributed to men.
Ibis3 states “I still wonder (and gape, and get nauseated, and get angry) every time one hops up on her douchebro-supplied platform.” as though it is unconscionable that a woman could be a misogynist. According to Ibis3, they are not misogynists, but female apologists for misogynistic dudebros.
First, it is unconscionable that anyone should be a misogynist. Second, I’m pretty sure you’re wrong when you say that women are “as prone to misogyny” as men are. We live in a culture that especially encourages men to hate women–more often, more aggressively, more thoroughly. That being said, yes, women do internalize some of our society’s misogyny, I agree. There are some women who are misogynists.
However, we don’t see many forums or orgs that are hate groups against women which are run and organized by women, or movies and tv shows written and directed and produced by women that perpetuate misogynist attitudes, for example. What we tend to see more of are women who cozy up to hate groups run and organized by men–not many, but a few here, a few there. Or women who write the sexist propaganda of or appear as sexist pundits on mainstream media outlets. Or who act as the spokespeople for government policies that will be perceived as sexist/misogynist. It’s not a stretch to conclude that there’s something else going on there than self-inflicted misogyny alone. Even so, I didn’t mean to imply that the women who act as apologists for the patriarchy with all of its sexism and misogyny are never themselves misogynists. Whether they are or not, it still astonishes and disgusts me.
Thank you. I appreciate all your commentary (that I see) on here, keep it up yourself =)
Suidosays
@procrastinatorordinaire #130
I am also a man, and I am a misandrist. […] On first contact, I distrust men. I do not seek male company, nor do I desire it in any way. There is nothing that men can do to change that. I will always feel happier and more at ease in female company.
It seems a fair assumption that the same applies to misogynists.
No. That is not a fair assumption. That’s you projecting, and says nothing of how other people are. You jumped from initial distrust of men to being more at ease in the company of women. I suggest that there are millions of misogynistic men who are perfectly comfortable in the company of women, provided those women suffer sexism silently and don’t challenge the male power structures. Different people, different experiences.
You may be able to stop them saying hateful things, but how are you going to change the way they feel? How do you stop someone from hating or distrusting women?
I’m no expert, and defer to the google machine. I searched for “how to reduce racism and sexism” and picked the first link that looked like a useful summary/great starting point for learning.
Since you’re the one with the admitted problem, how about you do some reading and report back?
Apparently you do think female approval/disapproval should be a key motivating factor. I disagree. If you think men need this to do the right thing then you can be rightly termed a “misandrist”.
You know what?
For millenia men have decided what “the right thing” is. Because they always know so much better than us lowly women, because they are the rational ones. And we’re not going to put up with this anymore. Nothing about us without us. So, take your patronizing shit and move back some centuries where both belong.
procrastinatorordinairesays
@140 Suido
provided those women suffer sexism silently and don’t challenge the male power structures
Sexism is the discrimination of people based on their gender. It does not follow that people who are sexist necessarily hate or dislike women. I don’t have to hate women to think that they are not capable of certain jobs, for instance. I’ve seen older men demand to deal with a male colleague on the assumption that if they are talking to a female they are talking to someone subordinate. It is a prejudicial assumption based on traditional gender roles and it is wrong, but it is not necessarily a misogynistic view.
There is necessarily some intersection between misogyny and sexism, but they are not the same.
Louissays
BILL GATES IS TRYING TO FUCK MY WIFE!!!!!! {Runs around making “Woop Woop Woop” noises like Daffy Duck}
Louis
procrastinatorordinairesays
I searched for “how to reduce racism and sexism” and picked the first link that looked like a useful summary/great starting point for learning.
I don’t doubt for a moment that men can be excellent doctors. You can show me how some of the best physicians in the country are men. I have no doubt that they are as capable as their female colleagues, but given the choice I would rather deal with a female doctor. My preference is based on gender, but not because I perceive one to be less capable than the other.
Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.says
You may be able to stop them saying hateful things, but how are you going to change the way they feel? How do you stop someone from hating or distrusting women?
There is a part of me that scares me. A part of me that I view with fear and disgust. A part of me that is at odds with acceptable human behaviour (note my ‘nym). These are things that go back to the ages of 9 to 12. When I was a child. And I was trained, indoctrinated, by one man into rather sever misogyny. He taught me, and other scouts, that there are two kinds of people — men and girls — and girls exist to give men pleasure and he showed us that we were still girls and why we wanted to be men like him. So. How do I deal with this? After all, I have a job in which I deal with the vacationing public almost daily.
I pretend. I go out of my way to pretend to be a good person. To pretend that I have not done unconscionably things when I was much younger. I have pretended to be a good person for so long that I have, I think, become a good person. At least to those I know and love.
This is shit I was taught, in the most brutal manner, when I was a child. And about age 12, I began pretending that I was not who he had trained me to be. That I was good.
It doesn’t change what goes on in my head, but I have trained myself, through pretending long enough, to actually not be the rapist and misogynyst that my scoutmaster was. And tried to make me.
I don’;t think I am making sense here (bad night), but making a decision to pretend to be who you want to be worked for me. And I think it is still working and will continue to work. Sorry I can’t be more clear.
Suidosays
@procrastinatorordinaire:
You quoted me, brought up your own personal example, then jumped to an assumption that you example was applicable to others. Then you asked me to provide you with answers to a question I’m don’t feel qualified to answer. Then you started splitting hairs over definitions and ignoring other people’s answers.
I’m not sure what you want from me.
echidnasays
Obgvorbis,
By controlling your behaviour (and thoughts), you are rewiring your brain. You are indeed shaping your character to be what you want to be based on your own thoughts and actions. **Hugs** if you want them.
opposablethumbssays
… and that is why Ogvorbis is somebody I like and whose courage I admire.
Being a good person isn’t (or certainly isn’t just) about not having any desire or impulse to do bad things; it’s about having (or once having had) those impulses and rejecting or overcoming them and doing good things anyway, in spite of them. (a bit like courage isn’t the absence of fear, it’s being afraid but doing the right thing anyway)
plainenglishsays
Ogvorbis @145, Old Janov says that brains do in fact change, not much with practice or not so much. They change with approaching the significant traumas in feeling, going through the feelings. I trained myself at a very young age to reveal nothing on my face. I used a mirror and practiced. I did this because a I had the Old Testament God watching my every move and preparing my ‘reward’ for being evil. My scoutmaster was a devious prick with a black book. We cannot change what goes on in our hearts but we can decide to follow a way in action that does no harm; well, less harm. You allude to what is probably the only cure for misogyny in your story, having an early life that demonstrates the autonomy and freedom due all children. Extrapolated, that includes all adults too. We can say ‘No’ to the despicable acts that begin in our heads and it is important to not follow the blaming way of religions and haters in dealing with our private selves. Atheism allows me to be alone in a way I could never be alone with Gawd. I hated my mother when I was a teen because I saw how she was dominated and accepted it. (I could not see how I was with her and was already her in so many ways.) Misogyny is harm passed on through generations. When I was in my twenties, I found a study done by a woman training to be an Anglican priest. It dealt with equality in scripture and allowed for a balance of autonomy and freedom for both men and women priests. I gave it to my brother-in-law (a Baptist preacher finishing up his doctorate) and he went through the document and ‘corrected’ it according to Biblical truth, you know. I looked at what he had done and saw my whole fucking life in the church, the endless personal failures and corrections. A real holy fuck. We are real real bad, for sure, Ogvorbis, but we aren’t THAT bad. Oh, and I would like to say, (for my own reasons/pleasure) that your master of scouts was a fucking essence of fart, a turd that was stuck deep deep down. Fucking pricks use uniforms and badges to do their evil deeds.
Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Openedsays
1- #YesAllWomen is designed to allow women to share stories of experienced misogyny in an attempt to demonstrate that it is so widespread that all women have experienced it to a certain extent.
1a- This in no way implies that all men are misogynists.
1b- The above is so trivially simplistic that you’d have to be an idiot not to understand it.
C1- The creators and participants of #NotAllMen are either idiots, or dishonest about their motives.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
2- The actual effect of the hashtag #NotAllMen, regardless of intent, is to divert attention away from the stories of experienced misogyny coming out of #YesAllWomen by strawmanning an attempt to highlight misogyny as an attempt to paint all men as misogynists, thereby silencing the women involved.
2a- The above are the actions of an arsehole.
C2- Anyone contributing to #NotAllMen in an unironic fashion is behaving like an arsehole.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
C1- The creators and participants of #NotAllMen are either idiots, or dishonest about their motives.
C2- Anyone contributing to #NotAllMen in an unironic fashion is behaving like an arsehole.
Therefore: Anyone contributing to #NotAllMen in an unironic fashion is either an idiotic arsehole or a dishonest arsehole.
BILL GATES IS TRYING TO FUCK MY WIFE!!!!!! {Runs around making “Woop Woop Woop” noises like Daffy Duck}
Louis
Darn those rich and powerful men! They’re always controlling the mating scene!
zenlikesays
142 procrastinatorordinaire
Sexism is the discrimination of people based on their gender. It does not follow that people who are sexist necessarily hate or dislike women. I don’t have to hate women to think that they are not capable of certain jobs, for instance. I’ve seen older men demand to deal with a male colleague on the assumption that if they are talking to a female they are talking to someone subordinate. It is a prejudicial assumption based on traditional gender roles and it is wrong, but it is not necessarily a misogynistic view.
OK, let me replace sexism with ‘blank’, and misogyny with racism.
‘Blank’ is the discrimination of people based on their race. It does not follow that people who are ‘blank’ necessarily hate or dislike blacks. I don’t have to hate blacks to think that they are not capable of certain jobs, for instance. I’ve seen older men demand to deal with a white colleague on the assumption that if they are talking to a black they are talking to someone subordinate. It is a prejudicial assumption based on traditional race roles and it is wrong, but it is not necessarily a racist view.
Please enlighten me how ‘blank’ is any different than racism. Because that’s what you are arguing here.
knowknotsays
@145 Ogvorbis
Sorry I can’t be more clear.
Apology accepted, for my part. And, my friend, if this is your lack of clarity, please warn us ahead of your clear days; my understanding is that preparedness is advisable in the event of massive ionizing radiation.
Which is to say, respect, blessings, and thank you.
@149 plainenglish
…he went through the document and ‘corrected’ it according to Biblical truth, you know. I looked at what he had done and saw my whole fucking life in the church, the endless personal failures and corrections. A real holy fuck.
There are other beautiful bits in this, but this one ran the flint down my spine. Brought to mind those rare, crystalline moments when the past’s hall of mirrors transforms into series of lenses, focusing all its smoke, heat, explosiveness and such light as there was onto the person we have become. Seriously. Like time stops briefly, or gravity becomes arbitrary. Something like that.
Between these two posts, I found myself wishing that someone would write a monologue, a distillation of experience centered on this issue alone. (As though it were actually important enough to bother, because everybody.) A performance piece without the simpering, edited, predictable, cookie-wanting crap I’ve seen in all the previous attempts at anything similar known to me. Something that would present the intensity of this particular crucible in such a way that the majority of men – even MRA / PUA types – would, at least in stray, unguarded moments, be gobsmacked by the strength and force required by the endurance of it.
Unfortunately, the few men I’ve known who have exerted that kind of courage and strength would never crow about it. Or sometimes even talk about it. Because (it seems to me, by my experience) that, to them, it’s all just crap and damage and ugliness and muddling through. So, maybe a little like early attempts at asking WWII vets to talk about what the war was really like. Or maybe any real courage in the face of any real harm is a little like that.
And then (it seems to me, by my experience), with the men who do want to go on about it, it’s not so clear that this particular struggle was ever so very much present, so at some point you just wish they’d shut the fuck up. And if that point is beyond spitting range, you’re lucky. (It seems to me, by my experience.)
That latter version does not work as a monologue, or anything else. Like a post. (Just saying, as a heads up to any writers present.)
neuroguysays
The intellectual vacuity of most of these responses is right up there with “were you there?” or “if men came from apes, why are there still apes?”
Just one example: I should really care what half of the human population thinks regarding morality. Guess what, significantly more than half of the human population thinks we are complete moral degenerates because we are atheists. Should we care? Morality is dictated by popular opinion?
Or another: Rich and powerful men dominating the mating scene must be false because Bill Gates doesn’t want to fuck my wife. Guess what, just why is it that you can’t even get JREF to sanction Michael Shermer, even in the face of overwhelming evidence of his guilt? Now this is Michael Shermer. Certainly influential in the skeptic scene, but not the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. You don’t think there is any element at all of, you gotta do what you gotta do to get laid, and we got your back (but only if you’re a part of our club). Now multiply by that by the factor of much more powerful people, and where do you end up. (And if I were going to stoop to your level of debate, I’d point out the reason Bill Gates doesn’t want to fuck your wife is because she is fat and ugly.)
So, you are cretins. Absolute cretins. You may mean well when you say you want to fight against misogyny, but the problem is you don’t have the faintest fucking clue about what you are talking about. You don’t have the faintest idea where misogyny came from, or what might actually be done to combat it. Or, put more accurately, fighting misogyny is just fine as long as it doesn’t conflict with some other idee fixe you have about the world, just like science is just fine to creationists just so long as it doesn’t conflict with a 6,000 year old earth. It reminds me of some other threads I participated on regarding mental illness where some posters are going to defend the DSM come hell or high water. Etiology, we don’t need no stinkin’ etiology!
You don’t have the faintest idea where misogyny came from,
I do, because I’ve taken the time to read, research, study, and learn.
or what might actually be done to combat it.
I do here, too, because of the above, and I’ve been doing it for 40+ years. All anyone has seen you do is whine and float utterly ludicrous ideas. You’re also unusually…thick. Take this, frinst.:
I should really care what half of the human population thinks regarding morality.
People have explained, over and over, that if a person wishes to do the right thing, say do the right thing by women, you first need to know what the right thing might be. In order to learn that, a person would need to listen to what women say about those things, like harassment. Just like if a person wished to do the right thing in regard to, say, a father’s rights, a person would need to listen to what fathers have to say about things like societal bias, courtroom bias, and so on.
If you’re going to completely ignore half the population, you wouldn’t have the slightest fucking idea of what doing the right thing might constitute, so you’d probably end up doing a stupid thing. People’s experiences matter. What they think matters. What they feel matters. What they have to deal with on a daily basis matters. Context matters.
All anyone can get from you is that you just don’t want to give a damn about all those whiny, uppity women, and they don’t matter anyway, ’cause the rich men are in control of everything, including those whiny, uppity women. It’s a pity you don’t have the slightest notion of just how ridiculous you come across.
Well, that’s it from this cretin. Have a nice day and all that.
People have explained, over and over, that if a person wishes to do the right thing, say do the right thing by women, you first need to know what the right thing might be.
Yup. I can’t believe neuroguy can’t understand this. Especially when I gave a personal example of the importance of doing that very thing @112.
At this point though, I’m fucking done with this fool. Between his “sexual contact is a right” bullshit and this “I don’t have to listen to what women say to advance the cause of women’s rights”, he can fuck off.
chigau (違う)says
I think that intellectual vacuity is a fine name for a band.
chigau:
I think your advice may fall on deaf ears. Neuroguy doesn’t seem to care what half the population of the planet thinks when it comes to doing the right thing.
Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaidensays
“if men came from apes, why are there still apes?”
rather like there are always sexist men around who clearly hate (or simply entirely fail to grok) the idea of women as people, as human individuals, and yet want to keep women around.
So, y’know, duh: if men come from apes, there will be some men that will do anything they can to make sure that there are always convenient apes around…
But don’t suggest that this solves the problems with your “right of sexual contact” rhetoric or certain commenters here will go…um…
chigau (違う)says
humans are apes
knowknotsays
I’ve been morevthan a bit surprised at how angry this whole “rich men dominating the dating scene” etc thing has been making me the past few days. It’s really been grating on me. Like, Ken Ham grating. Maybe even worse.
And it’s not just because I’ve been lucky enough to have been close to a number of women who would count as wonderful whether seen from varying distances, seen strictly in terms of their work, seen strictly in terms of their personalities, seen in terms of kindness, or intelligence or passion… and at NO point was I rich. That was simply not their concern.
I also know that some of them, and some I’ve known in a purely social context have, in fact, dated rich guys. Because why wouldn’t she want to go out on that boat ifmhe doesn’t seem like a creep? Or why wouldn’t I want to drive to LA in a Lamboghini if he doesn’t seem like a creep? Or whatever.
The vast majority of them did not choose to do anything solid with the rich guys when it came down to it. And I don’t remember ever hearing any whining about the lost opportunity.
So, I began to wonder two things:
– Is this “availability of women” thing an issue about not getting serially laid, or is it about not getting a shot at something resembling an actual relationship with a human female? Because if it’s about the former (note that the term “dating scene” is used), then you’re generally going to have to play with the players; for a hookup, I completely understand a woman choosing whatever looks like more fun, if that’s what she wants.
– If it’s about the latter, I can’t help but wonder if the problem is that what’s wanted is a woman with some Kim Kardashian vibe who’s willing to hit Denny’s, a movie, and then back to whoever’s place for Pabst and sex, and be convinced that her dream world is justaround the corner. It honestly begins to sound like that to me.
The more I smell either on this thing, the more the whole thing sounds like babies screaming for their share of the dessert. Honestly, it was already disgusting enough, and the more I hear, the sicker it gets. I want mine I want mine I want mine crap.
Right now I am so pissed I can’t manage anything more cogent. I honestly didn’t expect this. Shit.
knowknot:
I’m sorry.
I wish the dipshit would return and apologize, but that’s not likely to happen. He’d have to realize that rich men DO NOT dominate the dating scene for that to happen.
And I don’t know if he’ll understand that before or after he understands the logical implications of a “right to sexual contact” (a woman being forced to have sex with some guy bc it’s his “right”…rape in other words)
knowknotsays
Nope. Can’t imagine that happening.
The fact that he went all hissy at the end there didn’t surprise or bother me, really. It’s probably just that the reality of the depth and focus of these guy’s beliefs is really sinking in.
.
Else to say, but probably belongs in one of the free-form threads.
The more I smell either on this thing, the more the whole thing sounds like babies screaming for their share of the dessert. Honestly, it was already disgusting enough, and the more I hear, the sicker it gets. I want mine I want mine I want mine crap.
Given that neuroguy’s example of a powerful man ‘getting sex’ was Michael Fucking Shermer, I strongly suspect that he has, shall we say, a poor understanding of the concepts of consent, bodily autonomy, and the difference between sex and sexual assault.
Seven of Mine, formerly piegasmsays
@ neuroasshole
Your example of rich and powerful men dominating the dating scene is the JREF’s unwillingness to sanction Michael Fucking Shermer?! And we’re cretins?! Michael Shermer’s actions toward women = dating scene.
So, you are cretins. Absolute cretins. You may mean well when you say you want to fight against misogyny, but the problem is you don’t have the faintest fucking clue about what you are talking about.
Yep, we’ve all been waiting for a man to come by and explain it to our fluffy pink ladybrains.
I guess misogyny means that you don’t get to fuck those 5% of women who are deemed conventionally attractive.
Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Openedsays
I have seen neuroguy comment on Pharyngula a few of times., and I cannot remember a single instance in which he was anything other than offensive and moronic.
@Giliell
I guess misogyny means that you don’t get to fuck those 5% of women who are deemed conventionally attractive.
No, you’ve got it backwards. The 5% of women who are considered conventionally attractive not fucking me is misandry. “Misogyny” is just a feminazi insult to try and shame me for the righteous anger I feel at their refusal to grant me my rights to sexual contact.
And now I need to go bleach my brain, because my own snark has creeped me out. *shiver*
Louissays
Neuroguy,
My “Bill Gates” comment is not an argument, it is mockery. There is occasionally a difference. Your position is sufficiently ludicrous as to be incoherent. I engaged with you politely and seriously a few threads back, since you’ve chosen to spout bilious nonsense and show off a quite spectacular persecution complex, I have (as far as I can be bothered to interact with you at all) chosen to treat you with the ridicule you so richly deserve. You want serious engagement, try being serious.
Louis
plainenglishsays
@neuroguy: naw, I think you want to rant and hate. I have nothing to offer but knowknot’s “okay, okay….”
And knowknot knows…. that your getting to him is really none of his business. It’s like forcing a little kid to wear a coat because, well, probably you were forced….It has little to do with the present day burning down or blooming. neuroguy is out in the cold and proud of his misogyny. Yes, misogyny is the accurate term in this context for NOT LISTENING. Perhaps it hurts too much, reminds or alludes too much. This is very common with bipeds. Around here there are honest reactions and if several folks say you are being a total wonkfuck shithead, it is a hint. When you listen to women speak of the everyfuckingday hatred they endure, you shut the fuck up and imagine what that must be like for a biped, and especially a dull one who feels that everybody is missing the(ir) point. You accept and wait to see what it feels like; imagine this something you have never had to endure for one whole day. You shut the fuck up you stupid fucking puke mouth and wait. If you are lucky, you will see a reason to say, holy fucking mother of Jesus, you DID get raped! (That is sort of the beginning, I think…) Or, as Louis@171 says with much more refined decency and far fewer words, if ” You want serious engagement, try being serious.”
Suidosays
Good replies all. I attempted a reply to neuroguy yesterday, but between treating Louis’ comment as a rebuttal and citing Michael Shermer, my brain couldn’t scrape together a response that took him seriously and also made sense to me.
I’ve been thinking about neuroguy’s idea that advancing equality for marginalized people does not (or should not) require listening to members of those groups.
Can equality for oppressed people be achieved without listening to the concerns of those very people? Thinking about the advances in women’s rights, LGBTQI rights, or the Civil Rights Movement, I’m wondering how far those battles would have gotten if the concerns of those minority groups were ignored. The more I think about his comment, the more arrogant he comes across.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trollssays
Tony Re Neuroguy:
Can equality for oppressed people be achieved without listening to the concerns of those very people? Thinking about the advances in women’s rights, LGBTQI rights, or the Civil Rights Movement, I’m wondering how far those battles would have gotten if the concerns of those minority groups were ignored. The more I think about his comment, the more arrogant he comes across.
Definitely one of the arrogant asshats who tell people how they should feel, rather than being smart and shutting the fuck up, opening their mind, and actually listening to those with grievances. But then, that would be admitting they aren’t the brightest bulb in the universe *snicker*
If you are lucky, you will see a reason to say, holy fucking mother of Jesus, you DID get raped!
No, you don’t say that. Your emphasis implies there was doubt as to whether or not someone was raped. Please, don’t foster this sort of thing, regardless of your good intentions here.
Other regulars here will remember the 100 rounds we all went when a commenter in a thread replied to a post of mine with “if she was raped”. That sort of thing doesn’t help, and it actively causes damage to all the survivors who are participating and reading.
I think a better example of what you were trying to get across might be: If you are lucky, you will see a reason to say, holy fucking mother of Jesus, there IS a rape culture!
plainenglishsays
@Inaji I see the distinction and that I missed the mark there. One thing about denial is that it lives here at home in me. When I get fortunate enough to know it by way of response like this, I understand why mostly, I just try listen. Most of my posts here I write out and delete because I realize how little they manage to say. I realize that my implication towards neuroguy spills way beyond my intention. My regrets for not listening better before. There IS rape-culture and I am part of it. Being here, if it is any help to you and others who have suffered as I have not, it is very helpful to be informed and told what’s what. I say that as a man who is grateful not as an excuse to make shallow statements that hurt others here.
As Margaret Atwood said in 1983, men worry that women will laugh at them. Women worry that men will kill them.
Why must this hashtag bear a synonymous resemblance to “no tall men?”
The obvious and completely uncontestable fact that #notallmen are rapists doesn’t matter a whit: it only takes one rapist to send a shockwave through hundreds of women.
I was thinking about #notallmen and #yesallwomen the other day… I wonder how many men, if they really were honest with themselves and thought about it, could honestly claim #notallmen. How many men, in a society where misogyny and rape culture is so pervasive, can really claim that they’ve NEVER engaged in asshole-ish behavior? It may have been a long time ago, it may have been a mistake, we may have renounced it, but… it’s really REALLY hard claim to have grown up in America (or anywhere in this world) in the last few decades and honestly not have ever treated a woman like crap.
What made me realize this was a friend from high school posted a #yesallwomen about how the first time she was sexually harassed she wasn’t even 13. For a moment, I thought she might have been referring to something I participated in… me and some other boys teasing a girl about allegedly giving her boyfriend a blowjob, and what that supposedly said about her. Then I realized it was a different girl I was thinking of. Which in a way made it worse.
I was barely even a teen when this happened, so it’s not like I’m wracked with guilt about it. I didn’t really understand why it was wrong, and now I do. But can I really claim #notallmen? I’m not so sure… I can definitely claim #notAllMenAtThisMomentNowThatIveLearnedFromMyMistakes, but that’s not quite as catchy a hashtag, is it?
I’ll just drop this here:Are men really so Clueless?
In news that is so routine that it barely even made it out of state, a man was just convicted of 2nd degree murder for beating his girlfriend to death with an iron. His guilt was never in doubt, but his defense was that he just “snapped” in the “heat of argument”. There is a prison inmate who claims that instead, the murderer told him he killed her precisely for the reason that he was worried about being laughed at:
Yes, it really does matter.
Not to women, it doesn’t.
May be we could create a video game in which the player gets to be a woman and try to overcome all the obstacles that come her way just because she has a vagina. It would be hell of an annoying game, but women play it every day. It’s called Real Life.
flatlander100 @ 7
To whom and why?
In response to #4 Jamessweet, I actually think you are on to something. I have the perspective of a transgender guy transitioning in his 40s. The other day I talked over some ladies, without thinking, and then they apologized to me. Not a full on mansplain, but for someone that has lived for 40 years presenting as a woman, and then suddenly being handed a basket of male privilege, it was shocking. I apologized and told them I was the dick, but it made me think I had better watch myself. It’s really easy to walk into that male privilege and just go with it, thoughtlessly. When the world sees you as male, you are afforded more latitude to be an asshole as a matter of course.
In response to #6 Carlie, in that vein, there is a tumblr called When Women Refuse, http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com that collects stories like that. I knew this was a risk for women, but it wasn’t until I looked that tumblr over, and followed it, that the sheer number of women, their friends, mothers, and children killed by angry entitled men because clear to me. This is with me knowing someone that was murdered in my hometown by an angry ex she was trying to leave. I guess with the way society kind of downplays this kind of crime, that I thought it was less prevalent. I was very wrong.
Holy fuck, there’s a #notallmen hashtag now… Whoever participates in that is a selfish, entitled whiner. They are also completely fucking clueless. Do they think words matter? Do they think that the proactive defensiveness of “But I’m one of the good guys!” actually alleviates anyone’s fears of them especially when the people they encounter do not know that by their words but by their actions, and that no future is certain? Talk about coopting a tragedy to dismiss the realities of those who fear specifically the type of person who commits the atrocities. Or does that finger swing only one way with that charge? I am just disappointed and outraged that there are some people so blinded by their own sexual self-interest they cannot fathom that they do not personally fit into the equation of a woman’s fears.
I know racial minorities experience some racism, but #NotAllWhitePeople. I am not racist, but by the way, white people go through shit too! We don’t have it easy. We experience racism as well! That white supremacist didn’t kill that African-American man because of his hate-filled ideology, he did it because he was mentally ill!
Oh, and, affirmative action is discrimination against white men! We are so oppressed!
/sarcasm
This is what the hashtag would have looked like if it was about race.
flatlander100,
Of course it matters.
In the sense that when I go out, I know not all men are likely to physically or verbally abuse me.
Wow, that’s a relief. So sure, it matters.
It also matters in the sense that there are men who are going to act the way they should. Meaning, not only not being someone who abuses women but who actively works against abuse or is at least “that guy” who points out that jokes about beating some sense into your wife aren’t even remotely funny.
Now, this second is a tricky one, and actually shows that #notallmen only trivially matters. Yeah, not all men are a danger to me. But the trick is… which ones are? If something happens, will anyone help me? Will I get rape-jokes from the police? Will they assume I’m just making shit up because #notallmen so naturally, not the man I’m accusing?
Note how I put “that guy” in quotes. That’s because “that guy” is the exception, it’s the unfunny mangina, it’s the guy other men and some woman roll their eyes at.
Doesn’t even get a difference between a joke and reality. Except that in reality, men try to beat sense into their wives, sometimes until they end up hospitalized. And then neighbors say He was a good man and I don’t want to get involved in their personal affairs.
So, I’m sorry if your pride is hurt, but if you want to make #notallmen matter, you’ll just have to swallow your complaints for a while there and just be #notallmen.
Hey, I’m still waiting for a day where I can interact professionally with strangers who aren’t interrupting me to ask for my phone number or making inappropriate comments. I can wait. I mean, I kinda have to. You’ll just have to sit tight and wait too.
Wanna tell me your waiting is difficult?
Well, not all men are part of the problem, but those who whine at #notallmen surely are.
Empty Vessel nailed this on Kos:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/30/1303118/-Dear-Men-STFU
I can’t remember if anyone has already linked to Not-All-Man, the “lone protector of the protected”.
facepalm,
Not all women have vaginas and those women are still in danger of harassment, rape, abuse and murder. It’s commonplace. For a friend of mine, getting invited to suck random cock or getting some strange man’s junk rubbed on her is just part of her commute to work.
@jamessweet:4
I can look back on my life, and definitely identify some moments that would qualify me for #notAllMenAtThisMomentNowThatIveLearnedFromMyMistakes.
A shame there isn’t an Assholes Anonymous, for those who recognize they need to change. Probably wouldn’t work though, as being an asshole and being able to recognize you need to change seem to be mutually incompatible states.
Instead of creating hashtags to try to assure women that we aren’t all brutes, why not take a more effective approach and tell men that they aren’t slaves to misogyny? For all of the things that we tell women they must do to avoid rape; how not to dress, not to drink too much, don’t be friendly to the wrong men, don’t walk in such-and-such place alone, make sure you have a call-buddy to check in with when you get home… why not create a hashtag to put pressure on males to not be brutes and not to rape or sexually harass? Something to tell other men that we are not beasts and can think and reason and be civilized people towards women and, yes, other men? How about a hashtag towards each other such as #mannotbeast ?
Also relevant.
Louis
No. It does not matter. Because the response “not all X” implicitly ignores what the person they are responding to is saying. It’s all an excuse by people emotionally disturbed by a connection between something they are, and the behavior of another. It’s a defensive reaction that negates someone’s experience.
These complaints about the behavior of men do not actually assume all men as stated. They speak of the person experiencing a behavior that is so significant among men that it shapes their strategic choices when interacting with all men. It’s a group oriented emotional reaction and not an argument or even useful as more than a speed bump slowing needed change.
Not all men say “not all men”.
Not all men say “not all men say “not all men””.
Not all men say “not all men say “not all men say “not all men”””
Not…
It’s not all men all the way down.
Louis
P.S. Not all men wrote this post or endorse it.
Unborked link from #21. Well done, Louis. Well done.
Louis
@ flatlander100 7
I’m interested in why.
@ throwaway 12
Look on the bright side. These people are showing you what they are for easy identification. They are people that irrationally assume that if someone criticizes someone with a shared characteristic, they must also be getting criticized. That can be used strategically even we are not quite sure how to yet.
This #notallmen is an interesting approach. Let’s try using it on another problem.
#notallwhitesareracist
There, racism is solved.
Of course it matters. Would you prefer that it were all men? Or even one more man?
And #notallmen probably matters if you are a man (one of millions) who gets pounded anyway for the past week or so for misogyny he doesn’t have, knows fully well is out there, and has in fact worked against. Of course, we should remember that #notallwomen are guilty of such misandry…
@ D Carter 27
Emphasis mine. Do you have an example of what you mean? There are several interpretations of this and I want to see what you have in mind.
Anyone interested can get a longer version of D Carter’s whine here. And here. And here.
Back when marital rape was legal (thirty WHOLE years ago!) I’m sure #NotAllMen didn’t rape their wives.
Didn’t matter to the women whose husbands rape them though, because they could not go to the justice system and expect justice.
Now that marital rape is illegal, #NotAllMen rape their wives, but some do, and just a few weeks ago, one of them was let off with no jail time, and admonitions from the judge to the woman about forgiving her rapist ex-husband.
The overall effect is terrorism: the message is sent that women should hesitate to leave their boyfriends or husbands, to refuse sex with them, to anger them in any way, because there is this avenue of punishment that the men can mete out for which they will receive very little legal sanction. The fact that #NotAllMen rape their wives is irrelevant; the judge thought it’s not worth punishing and so the threat is there.
#NotAllMen sexually harass women, but it’s ENOUGH that women live on edge a lot of the time and hold back from participating in public & civic life.
That’s why it doesn’t matter.
#notallmen? Seriously? If your reaction to women talking about misogyny is to get up and feel the need to delcare “But I’m not like those guys” then I think you are part of the problem.
D Carter @27
The next time I’m experiencing a PTSD episode from my multiple rapes, I’ll be sure to shed a tear for the misandry you’ve suffered from. Stay strong.
#28: wow. Where have you been?
#29: what you childishly misname “whines” are calls to substitute action for the endemic whining about misogyny here and elsewhere–guess you missed that. I keep asking “so what new things are we going to actually *do* about misogyny?” and we hear are crickets. Complaining and cartoons are fine, but at some point you’re going to have to move from whining and cartoons and STFUs about misogyny to actually, you know, doing something about it. Some of us didn’t wait. You can catch up any time you like.
What the fuck does “gets pounded” even mean and why is it such a serious problem that we need to talk about that instead of talking about the fact that women die on a daily basis as a direct result of misogyny?
I’ve said a couple of times that #notallmen is redundant. We all know that, or at least we should know that. It doesn’t address the problem, it just tries to ignore it.
@ D Carter 33
Entirely unable to read your mind so I can’t tie your emotional generalizations to specifics. Clearly I’m perceiving the situation differently from you so the only thing that helps is specifics from you and not sarcasm.
#Idon’tknowyou
We have had a week of explanations about “why not all mentally ill people”. Is this really so different?
All men are not misogynists, not even the ones who kill their wives or girlfriends, just as not all women are misogynists.
NOBODY has said that ALL MEN are misogynists, but ALL WOMEN experience misogyny. Stop derailing, okay?
@ D Carter
The first step in solving a problem is identification of the problem. That’s the stage of things we’re at. We still have people denying that sexism exists (let alone misogyny) and that it is a part of every woman’s living experience.
But since you believe that you’re so far beyond the rest of us, please enlighten us about what it is you’re Doing About It. Specifics if you’d be so kind.
D Carter, you’ve somehow drawn the erroneous conclusions that:
a) That raising awareness of the issue is not in itself an incredibly effective way of addressing the issue.
b) You know what everyone else is doing about the issue (or as you apparently see it, not doing).
You may want to consider whether Shut the Fuck Up isn’t a reasonable reaction to an aggressive, nasty, self-congratulatory presentation.
Yes it’s different. We’ve only been talking about “not all mentally ill people” because there has been an endless parade of jackasses demanding that mass murder entails mental illness. #NotAllMen is a derail in the exact same way. It’s not being brought up because these people actually think we mean all men. It’s being brought up to stop us talking about the real issue, i.e. the misogyny.
Not all mentally ill people are violent, so please stop trying to pass laws that restrict the rights and freedoms of the mentally ill.
Not all men are misogynists, so please stop… telling men to please be nicer.
Yes. It is really that different.
@31 Travis — Exactly. I’m a man and I simply cannot understand the men who apparently are so identified by their gender that they CANNOT listen to or participate in the conversation without being reactionary and defensive. I can’t comprehend this. If you aren’t a member of the group being discussed, why are you identifying with that group? I believe it’s because in some cases, they ARE or have been a part of that group, and they either cannot forgive themselves for that or cannot allow their egos to admit it. In others, it’s like a gender tribalism, which I equally cannot comprehend ….
Because really, WHAT THE FUCK IS THE PROBLEM YOU THINK THIS IS CAUSING? Let’s pretend that we think that all men are misogynists. Let’s pretend that every single woman on the planet is 100% convinced that every single man on the planet is a raging misogynist.
So?
What’s the result of that? What is it that we actually see happening?
Are women proposing locking up all men and using them only to breed?
Are women lobbying with real dollars to pass laws to restrict the movement of men?
Are women flooding the ranks of judges and passing overly harsh sentences on men?
No.
Women are asking for men to please stop being such assholes.
Women are asking for men to be held accountable for crimes that they actually commit and to the laws that already exist, rather than being let off on the shrug of “men just do that, you can’t hold them responsible for their actions when they’re mad/jealous/embarrassed”.
Women are saying “Guys, don’t do that.”
Ooo. So scary. So awful. So worthy of being fought with every bit of energy. So important that it requires silencing every account of actual misogyny, for fear of being asked to not be an asshole. Great rallying cry you have there.
Don’t you think women (and many men) would LOVE to do something about misogyny? Unfortunately it’s kinda hard when even pointing it out gets such a strong kickback. What do you think should be happening, exactly?
Person A: I was sexually harassed by a male co-worker and filed a complaint.
Person B: What? Man-hater! Not all men are like that!
Person A: I was bitten by a dog yesterday and had to go to the hospital.
Person B: What? Dog-hater! Not all dogs are like that!
flatlander100 @ 7:
Y’know, it seems to me that if men wanted to do something other than display their wounded pride, we might see something like #notthatguy, and it would be filled with examples of men who did things like told a friend or acquaintance that “hey, rape jokes are not okay, don’t do that”; “hey, I caught a guy topping drinks, told the women and the bartender” “hey, I called out my buddy for being a sexist git today” “hey, I stopped assholes harassing a woman at the bus stop” and so on.
If men want the message of #notallmen to mean something, they first need to understand that no, women don’t know if they are one of the good guys, there’s no way to know, and it’s often too damn late by the time you find out. If men were busy in the homosocial sphere, paying attention and learning to talk to one another about things that actually matter, then there might be change.
<blockquote.#29: what you childishly misname “whines” are calls to substitute action for the endemic whining about misogyny here and elsewhere–guess you missed that. I keep asking “so what new things are we going to actually *do* about misogyny?” and we hear are crickets. – D Carter
You’re either self-deluded or a liar, D Carter, as anyone who follows my links will see. You spend almost all those comments, and the one above to which I responded, whining about how self-identified non-misogynist men like you are being “beaten up” (you’re not, of course, no-one has laid a finger on you, and your use of this term in this context is insensitive at best). You don’t specify anything you have done to combat misogyny except in the vaguest possible terms, nor do you suggest anything others might do. Of course, there are plenty of things you can do, apart from the purely negative ones, like not derailing threads about misogyny by making it all about you, and refraining from whining about how you are being “beaten up” by women when you’re not. If you hear misogynist statements or jokes from other men, call them out. If a woman you know is a victim of harrassment or worse, support her. If you have a young son, or are otherwise in a position to influence boys and young men away from misogyny, do it. If you can afford it, make a regular donation to a woman-led organization combating misogyny. Boycott businesses that run misogynist advertising and encourage others to do so…
D Carter
I’m really sorry. I cannot imagine how hard it must be on you to hear all these things. How horrible it must be having to recognize that each and every woman has suffered harassment and sexualt assault at the hands of men.
I am pretty sure that you are a saint. An angel. Completely innocent. I’m 100% convinced that you never laughed at or made a sexist comment, always called out men who cat-called and wolf-whistled, and never ever used gendered insults and stopped others from doing so.
Please accept my sincere apologies.
The next time I leave work late and have to walk over the dark car-park knowing full well that there’s a lot of people who know that I do so every week, I will think of you and remember that I am totally not justified in my fears, because I know that you exist.
@ procrastinatorordinaire 38
Yes they are different. The context of “Not all X” is a response to people saying that they experience a significant number of X engaging in behavior that they have to take into account strategically.
The context of “why not all mentally ill people” is meant to demonstrate that the need to rationalize the misogynistic trash’s actions as mental illness is irrational. Literally not in evidence (and thus not via reason) and thus an emotional reaction meant to make the person appealing to mental illness either feel better about people in general, misogyny, men with really shitty beliefs and actions about women, or meant to deemphasize whatever the person talking about their experiences is trying to draw attention to.
“Not all X” is just an emotional reaction saying “I’m not like that”, when the person they are responding to is not actually saying that all X is like that.
The D stands for Douchebag, right?
Yuuuuuup.
carlie
So true.
Even more so, very, very few mentally ill people are violent. Those who can be labeled as “violent” are not generally violent, but simply refuse to be restrained. Those who can be violent generally towards others are not directing their violence with an agenda. With the very, very few who do have a particular target for their violence, the target is frequently imagined, and the actual people targeted are not actually enemy combatants or reptilians or assassins sent by the Pope, etc.
I don’t know why people cannot get it through their heads that regardless as to whether Rodger was mentally ill or not, his problem was misogyny and racism.
And comparing this with “not all men” is a huge false equivalence issue. And it isn’t an important distinction even if these two things were remotely equivalent. There is a huge privilege disparity between neurotypical men and people labeled as mentally ill.
Fascinating.
What about the menz in its purest form.
I’m new here, I may introduce myself later in a lounge thread. I want to share my thoughts on this:
There seem to be some differences between America and my country, and the teachings of Christians relating to women. I’ll try to give an accurate account of the attitude towards women that I’ve experienced in my years as Christian.
At school we were always told that it is NOT OK to touch someone else’s ‘private zones’, and that we should report incidents to our parents, teachers, the police, whoever.
Sex-ed was quite comprehensive, although abstinence before marriage was emphasized. The other thing that was emphasized – and it’s a good thing – was that you shouldn’t do anything you do not feel comfortable with, with regard to sexuality. In summary, I think women were aware that they had rights and autonomy with regard to sexuality.
That’s the only time women’s rights were emphasized. Women had very little autonomy in every other respect. They ought to marry, stay home and do the housekeeping, have children and wear silly hats. Because that’s how God intended it to be. And why else would they have bodies that are ‘intelligently designed’ to do ‘girly things’?…
At the time, all that seemed completely normal to me. None of the girls seemed to mind. (I don’t know if they really didn’t know better or if they didn’t want/dare to speak up.) They didn’t seem to mind if we made fun of them for being girls. They took no offence. They went along with the gender stereotypes.
I now try to treat everyone as equal. I try to stop categorizing people as male/female and see them all as simply ‘human’. This has helped me to be comfortable with guys acting ‘girly’ and girls acting ‘manly’. I’ve discovered that thinking in terms of gender/sex is NOT is not helpful when reflecting on other peoples’ behavior.
It occurs to me that either most women are not aware of the fact that they are being mistreated, or they are aware but do not speak out. But I know for a fact that I was, from a religious background, brought up to treat women as if they are not also a human, like I am. As if there’s a big difference between genders. And it seems to me that most people are unaware that they’re making a distinction when in reality, there is none.
Of course, there are physical differences between man and women. But even those are always irrelevant. They are irrelevant when hiring. It makes no sense to refuse a job to a woman because ‘she may become pregnant’. As if there are no other situations where your body is unable to work for an employer. As if there is in this sense a difference between a childbirth and a severe illness. Moreover, in our modern world, women can decide whether they want to become pregnant or not. We have more control over when we reproduce than over when we are ill.
There is no excuse for treating women as if they are different, and there is no reason to treat them as if they are different.
To answer the question in the post title:
No, not all men are misogynists. But that doesn’t matter. The problem is that society at large IS misogynistic, and we’re all part of that society. That is the problem and I think we should focus on that, and not on some poorly worded and/or misinterpreted twittertwit.
wirebash:
We do focus on that, or at least we try to focus on that, however, we consistently run up against the walls of “what about the menz!?” and “not all men are like that!, how can you defend Schroedinger’s Rapist?” and “this privilege stuff is all bullshit!” and “all you wimmin want to do is whine, why don’t you do something about it?” and “Feminazis!” and…the list goes on.
#notallmen might seem a minor thing to you, however, it isn’t. It’s yet another symptomatic reaction, one which shows how many men just aren’t getting it.
What I’ve felt the last week is sick, first about the horrible event itself and then about all the disgusting reactions. What I sure as shit haven’t felt is “beaten up”. Guys- if you think it’s all about you, it may be time to take a long, hard look in the mirror.
Some reading material: https://proxy.freethought.online/butterfliesandwheels/2014/05/how-dare-you-besmirch-the-good-name-of-misogyny/
Misogyny is being defended all over the place. Perhaps #notallmen would like to have a chat with a bunch of people about it.
Yeah, I don’t get the ‘beaten up’ thing.
How hard is to understand that when women talk about their experiences they are not saying ‘hey YOU! Steve! Yeah, you specifically! THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT!’
If you’re a man hearing about the shitty things that other men do, the correct reaction is sympathy/support, not indignation and hurt feelings. No one is accusing you personally of anything!
D Carter actually said “pounded”.
He might have meant “lynched”.
thetalkingstove:
I understand the power words have, I know they can hurt, and I know it can be difficult to not take things personally. All that said, as someone who was badly beaten in the course of a rape, I don’t like it casually used by those who are upset by things people have written.
Chigau:
Perhaps he meant witch hunt. We haven’t heard that one in a while.
Raising consciousness about a problem and fighting back against those who try to silence those who do so IS doing something about it.
..and Christ on a rubber crutch, people get pushback in the form of harassment, defamation and blacklisting just for doing that.
Yep, women talking about the misogyny that often leads to them being abused, raped and murdered at the hands of men is exactly like women brutally beating men.
Exactly.
Will no one think of the man feels?
Let’s all stop talking about how the leading cause of death for women is men and talk about how unfair discussing that fact is to men.
*headdeask*
*repeat*
Jackie:
Just once, instead of hearing a man telling us to do something, I’d like to see a man (or better, men), relating how much consciousness raising they are doing, especially in homosocial spheres.
I still wanna know what D is “doing about it”. Seems to me that the way to address bad thinking and social behavior is to counter it by making it known that this is not desirable, and show what better thinking an behavior is like. And I rather think that is what is being done. Some people have been engaged in that fight for years and taken shit for it every step of the way.
I wonder if D gets pounded with mockery and threats of violence and rape for being D on the internet and speaking out. I’ve seen again and again that women do, while of course taking the same background sexism as well as the retributive misogyny for speaking out in atomspace as well as bitspace.
I’m hearing them crickets, D. I’m not so sure they are saying what you think they are saying.
D Carter:
As a man, I don’t think it matters (and if it does, it’s so trivial that it’s pointless to mention). The point of #yesallwomen is to show that this is shit that all women deal with (even the ones who think they’ve never been affected by sexism and misogyny). It is not about pointing a finger at all men and saying “All men are guilty of crimes against women”*.
*truth be told, given how sexism is woven into the culture of the US (and more than likely all over the globe), the vast majority of men have likely engaged in sexist behavior. Note, I’m not saying the vast majority of men have engaged in _misogynistic_ behavior.
I’m suddenly reminded of the youth preachers who hang out in malls and ask passing teenagers if they think they’re “a good person.”
I don’t think introducing a pseudo-Original Sin mindset is a useful way of addressing this. “Yes, AND….?!” seems like an adequate response to “not ALL men” to me. >.>
Oh, I forgot:
D Carter– misandry? Really? There are likely some individual women who display contempt or hatred of men, but it’s nothing like institutionalized, been-around-for-millenia misogyny. Contempt and/or hatred for women is woven into the social fabric. Rape Culture and Anti-choice/”pro-life” advocates are two examples. Both result in the dehumanization of women. There’s no counterpart to misogyny. You can take your whining and go away.
___
I absolutely *love* the fact that my laptop’s spellcheck doesn’t recognize the word ‘misandry’….
Would this not just be blown of as “wanting a cookie” then? (I’m actually 95% serious).
I’m going to second everything carlie said @45.
@ Inaji, #66:
I’m not exactly a public figure, but I’ve lost a few Facebook “friends” in the last week because I refused to let their bullshit slide. Generally, the entre to the discussion has been either gun control or mental illness as root cause of everything bad, but it always, always results in a “how dare you bring up misogyny? totes irrelevant!”. I may finally overcome my Twitter-phobia just so I can retweet (and lend just a bit more weight to trending algorithms) what other people say.
And, FWIW, I draw heavily on the resources I’ve been exposed to/led to reading here and similar venues. Thanks all.
Oh, and finally, I can make my own damn cookies, so don’t give me any*. I just wanted to share in response to Inaji’s comment.
* The appreciation I get from women AND men for being “rude” and “resorting to character attacks” is approbation enough.
Azkyroth:
Yes, it probably would be, by a lot of people, and I find that problematic.
Patrick G:
Thank you. I know it’s really tough for men to speak out, but once one man does, it seems other men will do the same. Of course, that never seems to outweigh the amount of shit you get.
At the risk of stating the reaaaaaly obvious:
Of course it doesn’t matter to the woman that it’s notallmen, since it only takes one.
Of course it does matter to a man that it’s notallmen, since he doesn’t want to be accused of something he’s not guilty of.
Or maybe it shouldn’t. Maybe we should just give fuck-all about what women think, and just do the right thing because it’s the right thing.
Inaji:
That’s one of things I’ve thought about when relating stories over in the Lounge. Some people may think I’ve told them so that I “can get a cookie”, but others may see a guy relating a story as an example of what more men need to do. When I weigh the two, relating my story is more important (to me) than worrying how people will interpret what I’m saying (plus if there’s any confusion, people can ask questions).
#NotAllMen fail to appreciate how much more shit women get. :)
Tony:
I applaud that decision, Tony. It really is important for men to speak up more, AK and AFK, and I think we all need to be more receptive on that front. Dismissing such actions as wanting a cookie aren’t helpful, and will make people less likely to speak up.
neuroguy:
This is true. Women have no way of knowing which guy is going to sexually assault them and which one isn’t.
I disagree. I’m a guy. I’ve don’t sexually assault or harass women. I’m part of the ‘not all men’, but I don’t think there’s a point to bringing that up. “What about me” in a discussion of this shit women deal with on a daily basis does nothing but derail and make it about the menz. That’s not helpful.
If you’re “not that guy”, then the #yesallwomen hashtag does not refer to you. #Yesallwomen does not mean “yes all women are sexually harassed or assaulted by *all* men”.
Part of the problem is men not giving a shit about what women think, so no, I don’t think this attitude is right and I really can’t believe you thought this added something to the discussion.
The one decent contribution that fucking asshole rapist wannabe murderer Hugo Schwyzer has made to society is his “Words are not fists” essay. Here is a link to it that is at the good men project, but is through do not link so it won’t show up as traffic. Here are the relevant excerpts if you don’t want to wade through the whole essay.
PatrickG:
I also speak up on Facebook about social justice issues in general-and very often about feminism. I haven’t engaged in many debates, but just putting forth my thoughts lets people know that there’s one more guy out there that will speak out. I’m glad to hear that you’re doing much the same.
As for cookies, well I can’t make them very well (I always succeed in burning the bottoms), but I can run to the store and buy some. I pretty much feel the same way you do :)
I think it depends
Are they doing this to assure women taht they’re “nice guys”?
or are they talking to other guys, raising awareness, educating them?
That could be good
neuroguy:
Doing the right thing would also include believing that yes, women are full human beings, and placing your focus on doing the right thing by all people. You’re still focused on “eh, fuck women and what they think.” If you don’t even stop to consider what sort of stuff half the population has to deal with, you aren’t equipped to do the right thing.
This “not all men” thing baffles me. I know that not all people are thieves, but I still lock my doors because enough of them are.
@Neuroguy:
Except it’s rather hard to figure out what the right thing is if you don’t listen to what women have to say, innit? If you don’t, how can you possibly know if your behavior harms women?
@Tony: I said I CAN make cookies. I didn’t say I ACTUALLY make cookies. Store-bought ftw.
Giliell:
Yep, that. More and more and more of that, please. Talk about privilege. Talk about sexism. Talk about entitlement. Talk about assault. Talk about not being assholes. Talk about rape. Talk about harassment.
Because what women think about what you’re doing is totally irrelevant to whether it’s the right thing to do.
*sigh*
Four years ago, there was a LiveJournal thread which asked for this very thing—examples of men doing the right thing. It got over 4,000 comments. People did chime in with examples of men getting it right. And a depressing number of the commenters said something along the lines of, you know, it seems kinda wrong to say he was wonderful for acting like a default decent human being. And then, of course, there were the Other comments, but that was to be expected.
It’s here, if anyone wants to take a look: http://cereta.livejournal.com/652008.html?nojs=1
pensnest:
Thanks for that link.
The opening of that post is quite relevant:
ahem…
If you think women refusing to keep silent about their lived experiences = accusing you of something, I’m gonna go ahead and assume there is a reason for that.
What are you trying to tell us D?
Pensnest:
Yeah. And that’s a serious problem, which impedes men going the consciousness raising route. I think we all need to realize that it’s relatively new for men, and yes, they could use some support. I remember how things were in the late ’60s and early ’70s, when it was difficult for women to engage in consciousness raising.
Jackie:
I think he’s trying to tell us that he’s part of the problem. Or at least that how I interpret his attempts to derail this conversation with “what about the menz”.
Tony,
That was my take away from his comments.
The consequences men face for speaking up are nothing like what women face but, in many environments, it’s far from risk-free. It’s one thing to maybe not actively congratulate guys for showing minimal decency but it’s entirely another to go out of your way to announce that they’re getting no “cookies” from you. That attitude has always made me cringe.
This isn’t actually going to help.
And, of course, we haven’t forgotten that neuroguy actually agrees with the MRA/PUA concept of “hypergamy,” thinks that rich and powerful men monopolize women as if they are all part of a hive mind, and has this bizarre idea that people have the “right to sexual contact,” and won’t give up this idea despite being corrected on his inaccurate definition of what legal right actually means, and despite the care and effort people put into thinking out the logical implications of “sexual contact” being an actual right when he was unwilling to or incapable of thinking through these consequences himself.
You’re really not equipped to participate in discussions about women’s rights and feminism, neuroguy, as the remark I quoted above demonstrates.
Also, re: cookies: I mostly find myself denying them to men for simply refraining from assaulting or raping anybody.
Men speaking up against misogyny and calling out other men for sexist/misogynist remarks is something I greatly appreciate.
Can we please leave Hugo Fucking Schwyzer out of this? There has to be some decent guy who’s said essentially the same thing.
Juliana Ewing – I’d love to find another source that says the same thing. That’s why I tried to eliminate making any actual connection to a source related to him in my comment.
Juliana Ewing @ 99, the post is up, and Carlie gave it an appropriate prologue. It may well reach people who aren’t interested in listening to us.
@88:
Yep. Let’s try this one on for size:
You’d enthusiastically agree, and you’d be right.
Look, posters keep complaining about men wanting “cookies” for doing the right thing; or well maybe, not for just being a decent human, but maybe for more. Now I say that men shouldn’t care about that at all, and just do the right thing because it’s the right thing. Apparently you do think female approval/disapproval should be a key motivating factor. I disagree. If you think men need this to do the right thing then you can be rightly termed a “misandrist”.
@97:
Actually, I think if we got beyond superficialities, we might actually agree on some things. At least I would hope so. But it is going to be necessary to make some distinctions. Now if you disagree with what I actually think, then so be it. But that you disagree with strawmen that means nothing at all to me. Same if you’re too intellectually lazy to make those distinctions. The MRA/PUA concept of “hypergamy” encompasses an instinct or drive in women. Saying that rich and powerful men dominate the mating scene, as I did, says something about them, and about our culture, not necessarily about women. The concept of “right” is nowhere near as black-and-white as you make it. I could strawman your argument just as easily as you do mine. I could claim that your “right to be free from sexual assault” means that the government is going to force someone to be your bodyguard and expect that person to suffer any and all violence to prevent an assault on you, and therefore your claimed right violates the bodily integrity of others. You did think about these consequences, right, about the “logical implications” of your claimed right? Of course, this strawman is just as silly as yours.
The “MRA/PUA concept of hypergamy” encompasses a very smelly load of old misogynist crap.
102 neuroguy
Or a “realist”, because reality agrees with her: apparently most men do need this kind of motivation, otherwise society would already have been much less toxic. It isn’t.
If , why are they only 1% of the population?
A person has a right to live. The government can’t proved bodyguards, therefore, that person loses the right not to be murdered.
LOGIC!
provide*
neuroguy is so full of shit. Can’t he be banned?
By the way, spouting bullshit in boldface only makes you look like an even bigger jackass.
I don’t mind passing out a few cookies if it will help to boost the signal. Sure, human decency ought to be the default, but sadly it ain’t–or at least appears not to be because it’s going about its business way too quietly.
Thanks for illustrating my point, neuroguy. I’ll be in the corner, smirking.
Ibis3:
Quoted for truth.
neuroguy:
Men shouldn’t care about getting complimented for doing the right thing, but we need to listen to women. If we don’t, how do we know what the right thing to do is?
Case in point: I never thought about how important it was for me, as a man, to speak out against sexism until it was mentioned by Inaji a while ago. But in listening to what she had to say (which was an extension of what she thinks), I realized that was the right thing to do. To do the right thing, I had to listen to what a woman was telling me. I continue to do that because it’s the right thing to do, not because I want compliments or thanks.
I fucking hope you get it this time.
I think it matters a whole lot, because only men can stop male-on-female violence by a) knocking that shit the hell off, b) holding other men accountable and making assault/harassment/male-supremacy unacceptable, and c) standing up and repudiating the patriarchal macho misogynistic bullshit culture that they help maintain and propagate.
loopyj:
I get what you mean, but when women discuss the various ways they’ve been harassed and/or assaulted by men, I don’t think it matters that all men don’t do that. They’re not talking about those men.
Great thread, I have saved it for showing to friends when their MRA starts showing.
@114
What I did mean was that in addition to men needing to accept that YesAllWomen is a reality, they need to do more than just be NotAllMen. The ‘men who don’t do that’ still participate in a culture that encourages toxic masculinity, applauds the harassment and assault of women and girls and yet attempts to diminishes it as just a little harmless fun.
neuroguy @ 102
Is it hard work being as obtuse as you?
Men are half the human population of the world, as are women. If half the human population of the world thinks what I’m doing is harmful, that is very relevant to whether what I’m doing is the right thing to do.
Saying you shouldn’t do the right thing to receive compliments or “cookies” is not the same as saying you shouldn’t care what half the population of the world thinks of your actions. If half the population of the world disapproves of your actions, they probably have a reason for that and you should give a shit about what it is. If you don’t, you’re (minimally) a fucking asshole.
@wirebash
“none of the girls seemed to mind. (I don’t know if they really didn’t know better or if they didn’t want/dare to speak up.) They didn’t seem to mind if we made fun of them for being girls. They took no offence.”
When you’re a girl you hear those comments so often that you start to tune it out. It becomes like white noise.
@ SallyStrange, 110:
I’ll be in the corner, checking whether my jaw is broken from dropping so far it hit the floor.
@Neuroguy:
You idiot, we think the opinions of women on subjects that directly involve women is relevant. You don’t. As a man, I will now proceed to disregard everything you say because you’re a blithering idiot.
I’ll also note in passing that a woman do occasionally say things that fall outside the binary range of “approval/disapproval”. Shocking, I know.
Seriously, dude, be careful. Waving that level of stupidity around is all fun and games until you give your government provided bodyguard a black eye.
So true. Except not really.
@Inaji (here and there), I am thankful for your presence here. In response to your wish to hear what men are doing, I want to share what my most used response is now when I hear, as I still occasionally do (I don’t get out much) a slur regarding the autonomy of women or somebody’s natural preference in gender attraction or any other cut at individual choices regarding religion or lack of it, regarding joining or not joining, and so forth. I was a stay-at-home dad with my little ones and one Fall day my boy and girl were getting ready to go out and play on the yard. My daughter pulled on her coat and my son chose not to…. I was on the phone with a dear friend who is a child advocate and stopped her for a sec to say to my son, Hey, put on your coat before going out; it’s chilly! My friend on the phone said, Mind your manners. Let him go as he pleases and if he’s cold, he’ll come for his coat. That simple message kind of changed me in ways and now that is what I tell men who want to decide things for others. I ask them if they have a child and then I tell them this story. One of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves and others is to let one another be. I have had men accuse me of not caring enough and being too weak, suggest that I might let my kids run in front of a bus. I don’t give a hoot that they have to suffer about my love of my kid’s freedom, his autonomy. He is a smart boy and he’ll figure it all out. Thank-you for what you have said here, Inaji, and I am sorry that you have been hurt in your life, that you have to know first-hand what it is like to be raped, hated and beaten. You seem very strong to me. When reading among these posts from men, I find myself thinking that many men feel harmed in being included among other men who harm others. And it is important to look at our choices just then, in-offense, or in reaction. Some men feel it is necessary to start advocacy groups for men and boys because they are feeling that men are being harmed by those who hurt women as a matter of course. They focus on themselves as if they are being slighted or unappreciated somehow. Being an atheist/believer does not free a man from the harm done in their own lives and their reactionary defensiveness in the challenge of another’s pain. Misogyny is a horribly real part of the life of all men. Some of us confront it and reject it whenever we are aware it is present. But we need to listen carefully to women and shut the fuck up while feelings are being expressed, not form men’s groups and advocate against so-called male bashing and ‘liberal/left’ propaganda. One does not correct the fear/hatred of woman by starting a men’s group. One begins to listen and believe, not deny. That is the beginning! Solomon Burke is a man who knows that some of us are harmed and some of us not free. This is what an admirable man does about his pain of knowing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cou_qZjc_yI
D Carter #27:
I’m a man, one of billions in fact, who knows full well about misogyny and works against it. I didn’t get “pounded” in the past week, though. I’m not even sure what you mean by “pounded”. Could you please be more specific?
Your question in #33 about where I’ve been was an interesting one. I’m not on twitter, so I missed out on any twitter “pounding”. I was on facebook and various blogs, but didn’t receive any “pounding” on any of them either.
I did interact with hundreds of women face to face throughout the week and I didn’t notice any misandry at all. I had an excellent conversation with a couple of women on Thursday about the different types of sexism that female lawyers and engineers experience in their respective workplaces, and neither of the two women made me feel like the sexism we were discussing was my fault.
Maybe only the best allies trigger those responses, maybe I’m not fighting misogyny as well as you do?
Could you please explain how I can have intentions as good as yours, so I can experience some good old feminist poundings and misandric backlashes? They sound really exciting and worth experiencing.
@Ibis3, Let’s burn some bridges
I didn’t mean it doesn’t affect us. It does, especially because it is so normal.
I have an older cousin who used to rather cruelly verbally and emotionally abuse me since I can remember. Once when I was about 16, she was doing what she always does, just ripping into me while we were watching some home movies. Later it dawned on me that while she was doing this, I barely noticed it or reacted at all, but I felt the pain of it. It’s kind of like being stabbed your whole life that it becomes so normal someone can stab you while you’re watching TV and it doesn’t even distract you. You can just keep watching TV while being stabbed, feel the pain, but not react at all.
neuroguy #102
Whut. In the middle of your entire post of whut, this piece of whut stood out to me.
Explain how rich and powerful men and dominating the billions of relationships that don’t involve rich and powerful men. Like my relationship with my partner, or the relationships of anyone I know, or lesbian relationships.
Should I be worried that a rich and powerful man is going to steal away my partner? We live together and have swapped rings, so you could say it’s getting pretty serious, but perhaps I should hide my partner away so she’ll never meet any rich and powerful men? That would mean she’d have to quit her job, some of her colleagues are pretty rich and powerful and male.
I’d hate to lose her to some rich, powerful man that just totally dominates me to the extent that she’d forget about how much fun we have together, shared interests, great sex and deep emotional connection.
If I wasn’t laughing so hard, I might be worried about a panic attack.
*Explain how rich and powerful men ARE dominating etc.
Hail tpoys.
@Suido
I think when he says women, he means those creatures in Victoria’ Secret catalogs and runway shows. The non-Victoria’s Secret model creatures don’t qualify.
#ButSomeMenAreAndYouCantTellByLooking
@theoreticalgrrrl
Yeah. I knew how you meant it (which is why I said “so true”). I was just expanding on it for wirebash’s benefit. Your story is a very good illustration of how we normalise abuse and even violence when it happens consistently.
Another aspect of the type of ongoing abuse girls endure is that as girls they are also conditioned to be complacent about it: be “nice” be “polite” “don’t make waves” “don’t draw attention to yourself” “don’t be selfish” “if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all” “he isn’t being mean, he just likes you” and so on. And if they venture to say something, whatever happens becomes their fault, not that of the perpetrators of the abuse. It’s no wonder* that the misogynists have so many women apologists.
*though I still wonder (and gape, and get nauseated, and get angry) every time one hops up on her douchebro-supplied platform.
Suido:
You’ve got me in stitches here!
Keep it up.
@122 Suido
I am also a man, and I am a misandrist. I have a group of male friends who I love very much, but most of those friendships were formed twenty years ago or more. On first contact, I distrust men. I do not seek male company, nor do I desire it in any way. There is nothing that men can do to change that. I will always feel happier and more at ease in female company.
It seems a fair assumption that the same applies to misogynists. You may be able to stop them saying hateful things, but how are you going to change the way they feel? How do you stop someone from hating or distrusting women?
There appears to be an unspoken assumption that all misogynists are male. Women are just as prone to misogyny as men are.
procrastinatorordinaire:
What gives you the impression that people have this “unspoken assumption”?
procrastinatorordinaire:
A good place to start is to make it socially unacceptable to spout hateful things.
That’s just a starting point, but it’s a good one, that’s proven effective.
procrastinatorordinaire @130
A good way is not teaching them to hate or distrust women in the first place. Often this involves raising them around people who don’t hate or distrust women, and where misogynists don’t get to spread their hate and distrust unchallenged.
I keep seeing that #NotAllMen hash-tag and it’s bugged me from the beginning, so I felt I needed to turn it around the other way (reposting here a tweet I made the other day):
* In USA this week: yoga pants ok rape, violence on Atl subway, multi. killing? #NotAllMen listen to #YesAllWomen like we should: do better!
Implicit in the “not all” part is that some fit into each of the sets. I think it’s much more important to talk about how not all men even try to listen or try to respect and hold equal roughly half of the population of the planet (to refer to but one set too often marginalized).
@132 Tony
Well, I guess it has something to do with the fact that there has been nary a mention of misogyny here where it was not attributed to men.
Ibis3 states “I still wonder (and gape, and get nauseated, and get angry) every time one hops up on her douchebro-supplied platform.” as though it is unconscionable that a woman could be a misogynist. According to Ibis3, they are not misogynists, but female apologists for misogynistic dudebros.
First, it is unconscionable that anyone should be a misogynist. Second, I’m pretty sure you’re wrong when you say that women are “as prone to misogyny” as men are. We live in a culture that especially encourages men to hate women–more often, more aggressively, more thoroughly. That being said, yes, women do internalize some of our society’s misogyny, I agree. There are some women who are misogynists.
However, we don’t see many forums or orgs that are hate groups against women which are run and organized by women, or movies and tv shows written and directed and produced by women that perpetuate misogynist attitudes, for example. What we tend to see more of are women who cozy up to hate groups run and organized by men–not many, but a few here, a few there. Or women who write the sexist propaganda of or appear as sexist pundits on mainstream media outlets. Or who act as the spokespeople for government policies that will be perceived as sexist/misogynist. It’s not a stretch to conclude that there’s something else going on there than self-inflicted misogyny alone. Even so, I didn’t mean to imply that the women who act as apologists for the patriarchy with all of its sexism and misogyny are never themselves misogynists. Whether they are or not, it still astonishes and disgusts me.
A Gentleman’s Guide to Rape Culture.
Hat tip to Cicely.
@Tony #129:
Thank you. I appreciate all your commentary (that I see) on here, keep it up yourself =)
@procrastinatorordinaire #130
No. That is not a fair assumption. That’s you projecting, and says nothing of how other people are. You jumped from initial distrust of men to being more at ease in the company of women. I suggest that there are millions of misogynistic men who are perfectly comfortable in the company of women, provided those women suffer sexism silently and don’t challenge the male power structures. Different people, different experiences.
I’m no expert, and defer to the google machine. I searched for “how to reduce racism and sexism” and picked the first link that looked like a useful summary/great starting point for learning.
Since you’re the one with the admitted problem, how about you do some reading and report back?
neuroguy
You know what?
For millenia men have decided what “the right thing” is. Because they always know so much better than us lowly women, because they are the rational ones. And we’re not going to put up with this anymore. Nothing about us without us. So, take your patronizing shit and move back some centuries where both belong.
@140 Suido
Sexism is the discrimination of people based on their gender. It does not follow that people who are sexist necessarily hate or dislike women. I don’t have to hate women to think that they are not capable of certain jobs, for instance. I’ve seen older men demand to deal with a male colleague on the assumption that if they are talking to a female they are talking to someone subordinate. It is a prejudicial assumption based on traditional gender roles and it is wrong, but it is not necessarily a misogynistic view.
There is necessarily some intersection between misogyny and sexism, but they are not the same.
BILL GATES IS TRYING TO FUCK MY WIFE!!!!!! {Runs around making “Woop Woop Woop” noises like Daffy Duck}
Louis
I don’t doubt for a moment that men can be excellent doctors. You can show me how some of the best physicians in the country are men. I have no doubt that they are as capable as their female colleagues, but given the choice I would rather deal with a female doctor. My preference is based on gender, but not because I perceive one to be less capable than the other.
There is a part of me that scares me. A part of me that I view with fear and disgust. A part of me that is at odds with acceptable human behaviour (note my ‘nym). These are things that go back to the ages of 9 to 12. When I was a child. And I was trained, indoctrinated, by one man into rather sever misogyny. He taught me, and other scouts, that there are two kinds of people — men and girls — and girls exist to give men pleasure and he showed us that we were still girls and why we wanted to be men like him. So. How do I deal with this? After all, I have a job in which I deal with the vacationing public almost daily.
I pretend. I go out of my way to pretend to be a good person. To pretend that I have not done unconscionably things when I was much younger. I have pretended to be a good person for so long that I have, I think, become a good person. At least to those I know and love.
This is shit I was taught, in the most brutal manner, when I was a child. And about age 12, I began pretending that I was not who he had trained me to be. That I was good.
It doesn’t change what goes on in my head, but I have trained myself, through pretending long enough, to actually not be the rapist and misogynyst that my scoutmaster was. And tried to make me.
I don’;t think I am making sense here (bad night), but making a decision to pretend to be who you want to be worked for me. And I think it is still working and will continue to work. Sorry I can’t be more clear.
@procrastinatorordinaire:
You quoted me, brought up your own personal example, then jumped to an assumption that you example was applicable to others. Then you asked me to provide you with answers to a question I’m don’t feel qualified to answer. Then you started splitting hairs over definitions and ignoring other people’s answers.
I’m not sure what you want from me.
Obgvorbis,
By controlling your behaviour (and thoughts), you are rewiring your brain. You are indeed shaping your character to be what you want to be based on your own thoughts and actions. **Hugs** if you want them.
… and that is why Ogvorbis is somebody I like and whose courage I admire.
Being a good person isn’t (or certainly isn’t just) about not having any desire or impulse to do bad things; it’s about having (or once having had) those impulses and rejecting or overcoming them and doing good things anyway, in spite of them. (a bit like courage isn’t the absence of fear, it’s being afraid but doing the right thing anyway)
Ogvorbis @145, Old Janov says that brains do in fact change, not much with practice or not so much. They change with approaching the significant traumas in feeling, going through the feelings. I trained myself at a very young age to reveal nothing on my face. I used a mirror and practiced. I did this because a I had the Old Testament God watching my every move and preparing my ‘reward’ for being evil. My scoutmaster was a devious prick with a black book. We cannot change what goes on in our hearts but we can decide to follow a way in action that does no harm; well, less harm. You allude to what is probably the only cure for misogyny in your story, having an early life that demonstrates the autonomy and freedom due all children. Extrapolated, that includes all adults too. We can say ‘No’ to the despicable acts that begin in our heads and it is important to not follow the blaming way of religions and haters in dealing with our private selves. Atheism allows me to be alone in a way I could never be alone with Gawd. I hated my mother when I was a teen because I saw how she was dominated and accepted it. (I could not see how I was with her and was already her in so many ways.) Misogyny is harm passed on through generations. When I was in my twenties, I found a study done by a woman training to be an Anglican priest. It dealt with equality in scripture and allowed for a balance of autonomy and freedom for both men and women priests. I gave it to my brother-in-law (a Baptist preacher finishing up his doctorate) and he went through the document and ‘corrected’ it according to Biblical truth, you know. I looked at what he had done and saw my whole fucking life in the church, the endless personal failures and corrections. A real holy fuck. We are real real bad, for sure, Ogvorbis, but we aren’t THAT bad. Oh, and I would like to say, (for my own reasons/pleasure) that your master of scouts was a fucking essence of fart, a turd that was stuck deep deep down. Fucking pricks use uniforms and badges to do their evil deeds.
1- #YesAllWomen is designed to allow women to share stories of experienced misogyny in an attempt to demonstrate that it is so widespread that all women have experienced it to a certain extent.
1a- This in no way implies that all men are misogynists.
1b- The above is so trivially simplistic that you’d have to be an idiot not to understand it.
C1- The creators and participants of #NotAllMen are either idiots, or dishonest about their motives.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
2- The actual effect of the hashtag #NotAllMen, regardless of intent, is to divert attention away from the stories of experienced misogyny coming out of #YesAllWomen by strawmanning an attempt to highlight misogyny as an attempt to paint all men as misogynists, thereby silencing the women involved.
2a- The above are the actions of an arsehole.
C2- Anyone contributing to #NotAllMen in an unironic fashion is behaving like an arsehole.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
C1- The creators and participants of #NotAllMen are either idiots, or dishonest about their motives.
C2- Anyone contributing to #NotAllMen in an unironic fashion is behaving like an arsehole.
Therefore: Anyone contributing to #NotAllMen in an unironic fashion is either an idiotic arsehole or a dishonest arsehole.
Q.E.D.
Darn those rich and powerful men! They’re always controlling the mating scene!
142 procrastinatorordinaire
OK, let me replace sexism with ‘blank’, and misogyny with racism.
Please enlighten me how ‘blank’ is any different than racism. Because that’s what you are arguing here.
@145 Ogvorbis
Apology accepted, for my part. And, my friend, if this is your lack of clarity, please warn us ahead of your clear days; my understanding is that preparedness is advisable in the event of massive ionizing radiation.
Which is to say, respect, blessings, and thank you.
@149 plainenglish
There are other beautiful bits in this, but this one ran the flint down my spine. Brought to mind those rare, crystalline moments when the past’s hall of mirrors transforms into series of lenses, focusing all its smoke, heat, explosiveness and such light as there was onto the person we have become. Seriously. Like time stops briefly, or gravity becomes arbitrary. Something like that.
Between these two posts, I found myself wishing that someone would write a monologue, a distillation of experience centered on this issue alone. (As though it were actually important enough to bother, because everybody.) A performance piece without the simpering, edited, predictable, cookie-wanting crap I’ve seen in all the previous attempts at anything similar known to me. Something that would present the intensity of this particular crucible in such a way that the majority of men – even MRA / PUA types – would, at least in stray, unguarded moments, be gobsmacked by the strength and force required by the endurance of it.
Unfortunately, the few men I’ve known who have exerted that kind of courage and strength would never crow about it. Or sometimes even talk about it. Because (it seems to me, by my experience) that, to them, it’s all just crap and damage and ugliness and muddling through. So, maybe a little like early attempts at asking WWII vets to talk about what the war was really like. Or maybe any real courage in the face of any real harm is a little like that.
And then (it seems to me, by my experience), with the men who do want to go on about it, it’s not so clear that this particular struggle was ever so very much present, so at some point you just wish they’d shut the fuck up. And if that point is beyond spitting range, you’re lucky.
(It seems to me, by my experience.)That latter version does not work as a monologue, or anything else. Like a post. (Just saying, as a heads up to any writers present.)
The intellectual vacuity of most of these responses is right up there with “were you there?” or “if men came from apes, why are there still apes?”
Just one example: I should really care what half of the human population thinks regarding morality. Guess what, significantly more than half of the human population thinks we are complete moral degenerates because we are atheists. Should we care? Morality is dictated by popular opinion?
Or another: Rich and powerful men dominating the mating scene must be false because Bill Gates doesn’t want to fuck my wife. Guess what, just why is it that you can’t even get JREF to sanction Michael Shermer, even in the face of overwhelming evidence of his guilt? Now this is Michael Shermer. Certainly influential in the skeptic scene, but not the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. You don’t think there is any element at all of, you gotta do what you gotta do to get laid, and we got your back (but only if you’re a part of our club). Now multiply by that by the factor of much more powerful people, and where do you end up. (And if I were going to stoop to your level of debate, I’d point out the reason Bill Gates doesn’t want to fuck your wife is because she is fat and ugly.)
So, you are cretins. Absolute cretins. You may mean well when you say you want to fight against misogyny, but the problem is you don’t have the faintest fucking clue about what you are talking about. You don’t have the faintest idea where misogyny came from, or what might actually be done to combat it. Or, put more accurately, fighting misogyny is just fine as long as it doesn’t conflict with some other idee fixe you have about the world, just like science is just fine to creationists just so long as it doesn’t conflict with a 6,000 year old earth. It reminds me of some other threads I participated on regarding mental illness where some posters are going to defend the DSM come hell or high water. Etiology, we don’t need no stinkin’ etiology!
@154 neuroguy
what?
oh.
ok, bye.
neuroguy:
I do, because I’ve taken the time to read, research, study, and learn.
I do here, too, because of the above, and I’ve been doing it for 40+ years. All anyone has seen you do is whine and float utterly ludicrous ideas. You’re also unusually…thick. Take this, frinst.:
People have explained, over and over, that if a person wishes to do the right thing, say do the right thing by women, you first need to know what the right thing might be. In order to learn that, a person would need to listen to what women say about those things, like harassment. Just like if a person wished to do the right thing in regard to, say, a father’s rights, a person would need to listen to what fathers have to say about things like societal bias, courtroom bias, and so on.
If you’re going to completely ignore half the population, you wouldn’t have the slightest fucking idea of what doing the right thing might constitute, so you’d probably end up doing a stupid thing. People’s experiences matter. What they think matters. What they feel matters. What they have to deal with on a daily basis matters. Context matters.
All anyone can get from you is that you just don’t want to give a damn about all those whiny, uppity women, and they don’t matter anyway, ’cause the rich men are in control of everything, including those whiny, uppity women. It’s a pity you don’t have the slightest notion of just how ridiculous you come across.
Well, that’s it from this cretin. Have a nice day and all that.
Inaji:
Yup. I can’t believe neuroguy can’t understand this. Especially when I gave a personal example of the importance of doing that very thing @112.
At this point though, I’m fucking done with this fool. Between his “sexual contact is a right” bullshit and this “I don’t have to listen to what women say to advance the cause of women’s rights”, he can fuck off.
I think that is a fine name for a band.
Welcome Ladies and Gentlemen! Bringing to the stage, we proudly present Intellectual Vacuity. Here comes their lead singer, neuroguy!
on another note
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretinism
so, neuroguy, try for another insult
chigau:
I think your advice may fall on deaf ears. Neuroguy doesn’t seem to care what half the population of the planet thinks when it comes to doing the right thing.
rather like there are always sexist men around who clearly hate (or simply entirely fail to grok) the idea of women as people, as human individuals, and yet want to keep women around.
So, y’know, duh: if men come from apes, there will be some men that will do anything they can to make sure that there are always convenient apes around…
But don’t suggest that this solves the problems with your “right of sexual contact” rhetoric or certain commenters here will go…um…
humans are apes
I’ve been morevthan a bit surprised at how angry this whole “rich men dominating the dating scene” etc thing has been making me the past few days. It’s really been grating on me. Like, Ken Ham grating. Maybe even worse.
And it’s not just because I’ve been lucky enough to have been close to a number of women who would count as wonderful whether seen from varying distances, seen strictly in terms of their work, seen strictly in terms of their personalities, seen in terms of kindness, or intelligence or passion… and at NO point was I rich. That was simply not their concern.
I also know that some of them, and some I’ve known in a purely social context have, in fact, dated rich guys. Because why wouldn’t she want to go out on that boat ifmhe doesn’t seem like a creep? Or why wouldn’t I want to drive to LA in a Lamboghini if he doesn’t seem like a creep? Or whatever.
The vast majority of them did not choose to do anything solid with the rich guys when it came down to it. And I don’t remember ever hearing any whining about the lost opportunity.
So, I began to wonder two things:
– Is this “availability of women” thing an issue about not getting serially laid, or is it about not getting a shot at something resembling an actual relationship with a human female? Because if it’s about the former (note that the term “dating scene” is used), then you’re generally going to have to play with the players; for a hookup, I completely understand a woman choosing whatever looks like more fun, if that’s what she wants.
– If it’s about the latter, I can’t help but wonder if the problem is that what’s wanted is a woman with some Kim Kardashian vibe who’s willing to hit Denny’s, a movie, and then back to whoever’s place for Pabst and sex, and be convinced that her dream world is justaround the corner. It honestly begins to sound like that to me.
The more I smell either on this thing, the more the whole thing sounds like babies screaming for their share of the dessert. Honestly, it was already disgusting enough, and the more I hear, the sicker it gets. I want mine I want mine I want mine crap.
Right now I am so pissed I can’t manage anything more cogent. I honestly didn’t expect this. Shit.
knowknot:
I’m sorry.
I wish the dipshit would return and apologize, but that’s not likely to happen. He’d have to realize that rich men DO NOT dominate the dating scene for that to happen.
And I don’t know if he’ll understand that before or after he understands the logical implications of a “right to sexual contact” (a woman being forced to have sex with some guy bc it’s his “right”…rape in other words)
Nope. Can’t imagine that happening.
The fact that he went all hissy at the end there didn’t surprise or bother me, really. It’s probably just that the reality of the depth and focus of these guy’s beliefs is really sinking in.
.
Else to say, but probably belongs in one of the free-form threads.
knowknot
Given that neuroguy’s example of a powerful man ‘getting sex’ was Michael Fucking Shermer, I strongly suspect that he has, shall we say, a poor understanding of the concepts of consent, bodily autonomy, and the difference between sex and sexual assault.
@ neuroasshole
Your example of rich and powerful men dominating the dating scene is the JREF’s unwillingness to sanction Michael Fucking Shermer?! And we’re cretins?! Michael Shermer’s actions toward women = dating scene.
*passes around brain bleach*
Yep, we’ve all been waiting for a man to come by and explain it to our fluffy pink ladybrains.
I guess misogyny means that you don’t get to fuck those 5% of women who are deemed conventionally attractive.
I have seen neuroguy comment on Pharyngula a few of times., and I cannot remember a single instance in which he was anything other than offensive and moronic.
@Giliell
No, you’ve got it backwards. The 5% of women who are considered conventionally attractive not fucking me is misandry. “Misogyny” is just a feminazi insult to try and shame me for the righteous anger I feel at their refusal to grant me my rights to sexual contact.
And now I need to go bleach my brain, because my own snark has creeped me out. *shiver*
Neuroguy,
My “Bill Gates” comment is not an argument, it is mockery. There is occasionally a difference. Your position is sufficiently ludicrous as to be incoherent. I engaged with you politely and seriously a few threads back, since you’ve chosen to spout bilious nonsense and show off a quite spectacular persecution complex, I have (as far as I can be bothered to interact with you at all) chosen to treat you with the ridicule you so richly deserve. You want serious engagement, try being serious.
Louis
@neuroguy: naw, I think you want to rant and hate. I have nothing to offer but knowknot’s “okay, okay….”
And knowknot knows…. that your getting to him is really none of his business. It’s like forcing a little kid to wear a coat because, well, probably you were forced….It has little to do with the present day burning down or blooming. neuroguy is out in the cold and proud of his misogyny. Yes, misogyny is the accurate term in this context for NOT LISTENING. Perhaps it hurts too much, reminds or alludes too much. This is very common with bipeds. Around here there are honest reactions and if several folks say you are being a total wonkfuck shithead, it is a hint. When you listen to women speak of the everyfuckingday hatred they endure, you shut the fuck up and imagine what that must be like for a biped, and especially a dull one who feels that everybody is missing the(ir) point. You accept and wait to see what it feels like; imagine this something you have never had to endure for one whole day. You shut the fuck up you stupid fucking puke mouth and wait. If you are lucky, you will see a reason to say, holy fucking mother of Jesus, you DID get raped! (That is sort of the beginning, I think…) Or, as Louis@171 says with much more refined decency and far fewer words, if ” You want serious engagement, try being serious.”
Good replies all. I attempted a reply to neuroguy yesterday, but between treating Louis’ comment as a rebuttal and citing Michael Shermer, my brain couldn’t scrape together a response that took him seriously and also made sense to me.
Thanks for the brain bleach.
I’ve been thinking about neuroguy’s idea that advancing equality for marginalized people does not (or should not) require listening to members of those groups.
Can equality for oppressed people be achieved without listening to the concerns of those very people? Thinking about the advances in women’s rights, LGBTQI rights, or the Civil Rights Movement, I’m wondering how far those battles would have gotten if the concerns of those minority groups were ignored. The more I think about his comment, the more arrogant he comes across.
Tony Re Neuroguy:
Definitely one of the arrogant asshats who tell people how they should feel, rather than being smart and shutting the fuck up, opening their mind, and actually listening to those with grievances. But then, that would be admitting they aren’t the brightest bulb in the universe *snicker*
plainenglish:
No, you don’t say that. Your emphasis implies there was doubt as to whether or not someone was raped. Please, don’t foster this sort of thing, regardless of your good intentions here.
Other regulars here will remember the 100 rounds we all went when a commenter in a thread replied to a post of mine with “if she was raped”. That sort of thing doesn’t help, and it actively causes damage to all the survivors who are participating and reading.
I think a better example of what you were trying to get across might be: If you are lucky, you will see a reason to say, holy fucking mother of Jesus, there IS a rape culture!
@Inaji I see the distinction and that I missed the mark there. One thing about denial is that it lives here at home in me. When I get fortunate enough to know it by way of response like this, I understand why mostly, I just try listen. Most of my posts here I write out and delete because I realize how little they manage to say. I realize that my implication towards neuroguy spills way beyond my intention. My regrets for not listening better before. There IS rape-culture and I am part of it. Being here, if it is any help to you and others who have suffered as I have not, it is very helpful to be informed and told what’s what. I say that as a man who is grateful not as an excuse to make shallow statements that hurt others here.