Matthew Barnett raped a 14 year old girl — he plied her with alcohol until she could barely stand up, and then had sex with her. He claims it was fully consensual (now where have we heard that before?) But the facts of the case are inarguable.
She was 14.
She was drunk.
He provided much of the alcohol.
One of his buddies videotaped the act.
He dumped the unconscious girl on the porch of her home — where she could have frozen to death.
He freaking confessed to all of the above to the police.
A 13 year old friend was also raped by another boy.
The boy said she had said no repeatedly, and he had sex with her anyway.
Open and shut, right? These boys ought to be in jail, or at the very least in the juvenile court system. This was a horrendous abuse and a ghastly crime.
But — are you ready for the ameliorating factors? — all of the boys involved were popular high school jocks. Matthew Barnett’s grandfather is a state congressman. And the goddamned town full of righteous assholes who populate Maryville, Missouri joined up to recite the sacred mantra of “boys will be boys” and to condemn and harass the victims. The victim’s mother lost her job because her employer didn’t want to go against the popular families; other kids threatened her on facebook and twitter; she was suspended from the cheerleading squad; her brother was booed at sports events; a girl showed up at a dance wearing a t-shirt that said “Matt 1, Daisy 0”.
The case was quietly dropped and never went to court. The victim’s family are still being treated as pariahs. Matthew Barnett is currently enrolled as a student at the University of Central Missouri, single-handedly bringing the average moral status of students there into the sewer of turpitude.
And he gloatingly left this message on twitter:
If her name begins with A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z, she wants the D.
He’s a disgusting human being from a corrupt little town. I’d like to see the case reopened, but he’s got trouble now.
(via Alyson Miers and Ophelia Benson)
A protest is planned for 22 October. Follow #OpMaryville and #Justice4Daisy for more information.
Also, the UCM Facebook page has been flooded with comments pointing out their rapist student.
His mother wants an apology. From the victim. Vomit.
And kicker is, these rapists and their enablers almost certainly proclaim themselves to be — loudly and often — good Christians.
If anyone wanted your D, why rape? Let me guess, going to the trouble of getting that ever so pesky consent from someone of legal age is just such a hassle, right? I expect you have no wish at all to learn that the majority of people want nothing to do with you or your d.
Getting in early here: Basic Sexism Education Links, Lots of Them! Please Educate Yourself Before Deciding to Pontificate Upon Us. We Thank You. http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Sexism_Education_101_Link_Dump
Getting in early once more. Oh, those pesky consent problems. This will help. Read until fully comprehended. We Thank You.
CCC (Crystal Clear Consent)
* First of all: Understand that if you go forward with initiating sexual activity not knowing if consent exists, you may or may not be raping someone, but you have proved beyond a shadow of doubt that you are willing to rape someone. Black areas make you a rapist, grey areas make you willing to rape.
* Making absolutely sure that consent is obtained and mutually agreed on. This does not include trying for consent when a person is not in condition to grant consent.
* No doubts as to whether consent was obtained.
* No guesses as to whether consent was obtained.
* No assumptions as to whether consent was obtained.
* No doubt as to whether any partner was capable of giving consent at the time.
Crystal Clear Consent includes Fully Informed Consent. Consent granted under deception is not CCC, it is manufactured consent.
* If you use deception to gain sex–impersonating another person, lying about contraceptive use, failing to disclose STDs–you are denying your partner the right to fully informed consent.
* If you are not sure whether or not you have an STD, disclose this uncertainty. If consent is granted, take responsibility and use protection. Just because you didn’t know for sure is not a defense.
* If you whine and wheedle about using protection a/o contraception, you are not in CCC territory. You are willing to rape.
* Lying about or withholding information that, if known, would’ve resulted in dissent is rape.
* If you consent to X activity under Y conditions and the other party changes those conditions to Z, then you have not consented to what is happening.
Crystal Clear Consent Practices:
* Understanding that consent may be withdrawn, by any involved party, at any time. Initial consent does not mean you get to carry on if consent has been withdrawn. In other words, people are allowed to change their mind at any point.
* If you have not had sex with a given person before, mutually understood language with confirmation is the best way to attain Crystal Clear Consent. Relying on body language or assuming consent without clarification is nearly always insufficient with a new partner. As you get to know your partner(s) better, you will get better at reading nonverbal / nonlingual cues, but clear communication is still absolutely necessary. It is important to remember that rape can still be committed within the confines of a relationship, at any stage. Consent that is not communicated is not CCC.
* If your partner is communicating something, do not assume that it has nothing to do with consent.
* If you initiate or offer and are declined in the context of a specifically romantic, sexual, or flirtations setting, do not initiate or offer again until one of the following four occur:
1. the other party has taken a turn initiating/offering and been declined by you.
2. the other party has taken a turn initiating/offering, was accepted by you, but after the activity lapsed you wish to restart.
3. it is an entirely new romantic, sexual, or flirtatious setting.
4. An amount of time has passed that is inverse to the number of times they have accepted your offer before. While it may be acceptable when dating to offer again in a week or in a closer relationship to initiate again after, say, one day [or whatever is the negotiated norm in said relationship] it’s not acceptable to ask someone again if you’ve just met them.
* If you initiate or offer and are declined in a context that is not specifically romantic, sexual, or flirtatious, do not initiate or offer again. Seriously.
* If you’re beginning a new relationship or going for a casual hookup, enthusiasm is key! Your new partner should be enthusiastically and happily involved with you. If no enthusiasm is present, it’s best to go for more communication and put off sex for a while.
* A person who wants consensual sex doesn’t want to commit or experience rape, and a person who rapes does. Whether a given rapist wants their victim(s) drugged, unconscious, frightened, intimidated, trapped, manipulated or tricked, or just pestered until they give in, the rapist wants the end result to be that a rape happens. That includes being forced to penetrate someone else.
* Contrary to what is often thought, consent is not difficult. If you still aren’t clear at this point, read this: https://proxy.freethought.online/almostdiamonds/2011/09/20/consent-is-hard/ and this: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/06/if-consent-was-really-that-hard-whiny-dudes-would-fail-at-every-aspect-of-life/
* Don’t want to listen to us? How about MIT:
Effective Consent is:
– informed;
– freely and actively given;
– mutually understandable words or actions;
– which indicate a willingness to participate in
– mutually agreed upon sexual activity.
You left out how the family had to move to another town and STILL got their house burned down.
http://occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com/diane-sweet/alleged-14-year-old-rape-victims-famil#sthash.py99ksrA.dpbs
Spouse is a UCM alum. I’ll be asking about their admissions criteria the next time they call asking for donations.
But remember, there is no rape culture. Rapists are never protected. Victims are never blamed.
Or so we have been told.
I believe in the rule of law. I drive the speed limit. I’m of lawful-good alignment. I don’t believe in mob justice. But this, this…. this is the complete abrogation of responsibility to the law and human decency by an entire town. I just can’t. I can’t even… I mean what the actual fuck is wrong with these people!?
Ummm…some interesting reviews of some local restaurants are appearing on Yelp.
The owners were identified as family of some of the rapist assholes.
Those Yelp reviews are all kinds of awesome.
Caine @3:
(SARCASM ALERT)
Oh, you know, chicks don’t want to admit they want it, so they don’t look like sluts.
Slut-shaming? Rape culture? Never heard of it, why do you ask?
Except for the ones that promote vigilanteism, and the ones that say the jocks deserve to be raped.
True, PZ. I sort of skimmed them, I should have read closer before proclaiming my enthusiasm here. But some are quite witty, and I certainly wouldn’t patronize a restaurant that I knew employed this rapist.
I was about to say while it’s cool to see their Yelp listing get inundated with people trying to bring awareness to their bullshit, can it not be fucking done without the homophobic, racist calls for people to be raped in a shower by large guys with stereotypically African-American sounding names?
I just started reading the comments for the Anonymous video, a woman from Maryville (who claims to be part of the local media) wrote some comments, including this:
And after writing this, she wrote four comments so far along this line:
I don´t think it is humanly possible to do at shittier job at defending her hometown, but I´m sure more people from Maryville will show up and try…
Sneaking out of a house after a few sips of some booze to hang out and listen to music with friends is your typical teenage hijinks that in an ideal world ONLY result in a headache and a week or so in your parents’ doghouse. What it should never ever ever ever goddamn fucking result in is the horror that happened to these poor children and their families YOU DISGUSTING FUCKING GHOULS.
nich:
They surely are, unless you are raped or sexually assaulted, of course. Then it’s different, because those darn sluts.
deadguykai @ 6
Oh fuck. I just… This is so horrifying beyond words. I fear for that poor family and what they’re all going through. Make no mistake: this is an act of terrorism against that family. To keep them afraid. To make an example of them for others.
It’s hard for me to not just curl up into the fetal position and sob right now. Fuck.
I’m bookmarking this to bring out the next time I hear the “If it was REALLY rape, she’d have gone to the cops and there’d be SOME evidence” bullshit. This family did everything right, called the police, went straight to the hospital. Physical evidence. Video evidence. A fucking taped confession. Multiple witnesses. A case seemingly as open and shut as they come. And this is what happens.
numb to it all
kesara, though less profane, that is pretty much what friend of AVfM, JudgyBitch, wrote in the aftermath of the Steubenville case.
No, I will not link to that vile bit of victim blaming. If you want to see it, look it up yourself.
kesara, though less profane, that is pretty much what friend of AVfM, JudgyB@tch, wrote in the aftermath of the Steubenville case.
No, I will not link to that vile bit of victim blaming. If you want to see it, look it up yourself.
(It got stuck in the filter the first time I tried. I normally do not “censor” myself like that.)
Confirmed. JudgyB@tch trips the trap. Just as well, she is an unapologetic MRA.
Avicenna wrote a post dissecting JudgyBitch’s twisted commentary, if you prefer not having to read her bullshit directly: https://proxy.freethought.online/amilliongods/2013/10/15/a-voice-for-me-a-firestorm-of-helmet-bunnies-sluts-and-rape/
Can’t wait until they start screaming bloody murder about the damage this will do to their business. Because business is the most sacred of all American rights.
Janine – I think it’s just the b-epithet.
As I was saying, Avicenna took apart JudgyB’s twisted commentary, so if you prefer to read that, go here: https://proxy.freethought.online/amilliongods/2013/10/15/a-voice-for-me-a-firestorm-of-helmet-bunnies-sluts-and-rape/
SallyStrange, so does that mean I ccan not go back to my old habit.
Not that I would. As I explained when I stopped doing that, I did not want anyone to use me as an example of why they should be able to use that term.
(Will stop now because I am quite off topic.)
A football jock with political connections in a small town got a girl drunk and raped her and got away with it scott free while the victim and their family were forced out of town. It’s frustrating to consider how totally unsurprising this is. I’m with you Sally, if the rapist had suffered even the tiniest setback to his life I’d have been utterly shocked. But no, of course not. I wish them well, but I have no reason that the Anonymous pushback will cause more than maybe a tiny bit of annoyance to the happy rapist.
If someday the Football jock in the small town actually faced the consequences for ruining another person’s life I’d be singing to the hill. It would be wonderful if someday the doomsaying of the rape enablers were true, that the punishment for raping someone could ruin a young brodouche’s future as well as it should. Sadly I don’t see any point in the future where that might happen. And so I’m numb to it all.
omnicrom –
Zactly. *sigh*
Thank you PZ for putting “rapist” right up front. I’ve read at least half a dozen articles about this rapist today, and the language was all about “had sex with her”. Nope, it was rape, call it what it is.
Kudos to anonymous for bringing this to everyone’s attention. Maryville, MO needs to be publicly shamed for what they did to this girl and her family. Matthew Barnett needs to be tried for rape.
What’s with these small towns that turn out to be rapist-sympathizing dystopias?
Girl gets out at night, gets drunk and then some guy rapes her: No one forced her to go out or get drunk. [ignores how, on the other hand someone forced himself on her, the rape didn’t just drop off a tree on her]
Guy goes out and rapes a girl: she was drunk [like that makes it less of a rape], she was outside at night[oh my, I bet she even left her chastity belt at home *faints*]
’cause no one forced her to do all the stuff that happened before the rape (coercion into drinking doesn’t count, obviously, but she next to forced the guy to rape her. Forced, I tell you.
Ugh, I read about this case yesterday and it’s making me sick.
My prediction:
The rapists will never see the inside of a court. If pushed hard enough the people in authority will say that they would really like to get the whole thing sorted out, “But, gee whiz, it was all such a long time ago, and evidence has been mislaid, so it would be quite unfair to arrest anyone at this stage.”
MJP wrote:
It’s not limited to small towns. However, the one thing that has been true in all of these is that it has involved those in positions of prestige within the community. Football or hockey players, often with politically or socially powerful family members.
I know it’s not limited to small towns, and I did not intend to imply that it was.
Can we now admit the system is hopelessly corrupt? It’s not like this is the only outrage where the victim has suffered and not the rapist. The innocence Project has reed 311 wrongly convicted people, 18 of them from death row. Our government runs a surveillance system that would make the Thought Police green with envy. We are killing people by drone using the same intelligence system that led us to bomb the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade instead of a Serbian government office. Do remember that these are for the most part bi-partisan failures. The system is hopelessly corrupt and broken and no I have no idea what to do about it.
Matthew Barnett, allegedly, not only raped a minor and nearly killed her by leaving her out to freeze, but then proceeded to make her life unbearable, through cyber-bullying, threats to her brothers, and costing her mother her job.
Rex Barnett, is Matthew’s Grandfather. He sits in the Missouri State House of Representatives. In particular, he sits on a number of committees related to law and order. I guess he has all the right contacts to pervert the course of justice in favor of his Grandson.
Well we, 100’s of millions of us, can use many of the same tactics against the Barnett family. I strongly advise against anything illegal – and when you see pictures of Matthew and Rex, raping them isn’t a particularly attractive prospect – but we can drive them out of their jobs, colleges, and possibly their homes. It really is a great opportunity to teach these inbred hillbilly pedophiles, that while they may be a big noise in the State of Missouri, in global terms they are no-account lowlifes.
Rex’s State Legislature page is still available and I managed to get the following info:
Representative Rex Barnett
Email: [email protected]
Home address: 708 West Lincoln, Maryville MO 64468
Home Phone: 660-582-4014
http://www.house.mo.gov/billtracking/spec01/member01/mem004.htm
While we are at it, let’s get Matthew kicked out of college:
Matthew Barnett
University of Central Missouri
Write to UCM and tell them what think of an University that has America’s most infamous rapist in the student body (I have already seen one headline “Ladies, if you attend UCM watch out for rapist Matthew Barnett).
This is a list of UCM’s head administrators emails (Couldn’t get the President, Chuck Ambrose, but just about everyone else is here). I suggest you be courteous with these people, they are not the evil doers:
[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
This isn’t just about justice for Daisy Coleman, but also cleaning up a vile aspect of life for many who live in small-town America
Natasha
This thread is about a particular rape and rapist. Do not diminish that by veering off into a dear muslima rant about other injustices occuring in the world. Please take your speculations about corrupt government to Thunderdome.
Anonymous? That scumbag will wish he only had the cops to deal with. If only they’d go after the media for not calling this shit what it is: an inexcusable, unforgivable act of violence against another human being. I didn’t see a word of this until ThinkProgress shared it on Facebook. I wonder why no one else seems to give a shit about the actual victims here. Ever since I first read this story it’s been stuck in the back of my head. It obviously pisses me off, but it also hits close to home in several ways for me.
As outraged as I am about this, I’m not at all surprised. It’s not the first time I’ve heard about a small town demonizing the victims who dared to put the town through the trauma of dealing with the fact that a heinous crime happened in their neighborhood instead of, you know, the actual criminal. A similar story of what happened to my grandmother has stuck with my family for nearly 50 years. (I’m not going to derail the thread with the whole story, but a small town covered up the murder of her mother since the guy who did it was close to powerful people in the town.) Why can’t this shit ever change?
And this has finally done it. I thought I would never say this, but I can’t go on believing that athletic programs are a positive influence for students. Even though I benefited from sports myself, I can’t support them anymore. I was an athlete in high school, and to this day I believe that being part of the football team did a lot to make me more social then. I have Asperger’s and I might not have as much as spoken a word the whole four years if I didn’t join one group or another. For so long I defended these sports programs as something that could be a great influence on the athletes if the coaches actually gave a damn about that like the ones I had did.
But no more. I now see that my experience was the exception, not the rule. School sports, much like religion, corrupts the adults who are involved in it, you know, the ones that are supposed to ACT LIKE ADULTS. If sports programs warp peoples’ minds to the point that they are consistently willing to enable rape by athletes in the name of winning a fucking ball game, they are toxic to society and we should cast them out of schools.
I don’t intend to derail the thread with the tangent I know I went off on, but this story has had my mind spinning faster than a centrifuge ever since I read it. I can’t wait for the town to finally have the wrath of the rest of the country descend on them for the scumbags they are.
[OT]
(Emphasis mine)
This is listed as a bad thing. I am baffled.
Thanks for fixing that Beatrice. I was baffled by it too. I think its meant an another example of corrupt government that jailed innocent people.
Tethys,
*facepalm* I’m so stupid this morning. Yeah, you’re probably right, I read Natasha as having something against Innocence Project.
I am just unable to find adequate words…especially since violent revenge fantasies would be against the rules.
I won’t blame the entire town, I am sure there are some good people there, but apparently enough of the town is quiet enough, or actively supports the town luminaries and sports stars that they felt comfortable enough to bury this. They knew they could get away with it and most of the town would back them.
Statements like the one quoted above remind me an awful lot of those one hears when looking at interviews during the height of the civil rights movement. The media would come to town after some horrible injustice occurred and the town remained silent, but there always were statements about other people melding in their affairs, outsiders trying to make their town look bad, etc.
I know the feeling. Honestly I do have them occasionally, but I keep them in my head because putting them in writing does not help anyone. Having Anonymous get on the case does go a long way to satisfying those urges though, it will be difficult for these people for the foreseeable future. Not a fan of vigilantism in general, but in cases like this it is clear the system has completely an utterly failed and nothing will happen until external forces bring it to the forefront and apply unbearable pressure.
But you just did defend one side – the rapist. And what the fuck is it with these asshats that equate underage drinking with sexual assault – one is a victimless crime which nearly everyone has committed more than once and that in my day got you a 50$ fine and the other is a gross violation of another person’s bodily integrity that usually gets serious jail time. Apparently Ms Holier than Thou has trouble making the distinction.
These girls did something that was ill advised. So that – teenagers do stupid shit all the time. That is why we don’t let them drive until they are 16 and don’t let them drink, vote or sign contracts until they are 18. These doesn’t mean they “deserve” to be raped. How hard is it to not rape someone when they are drunk?
Those who condemn Anonymous for taking “vigilante” action seem to be just fine with vigilante action against the plaintiffs. Anonymous steps in when the police are derelict in their duty. In the Rateya Parsons case the RCMP could not be arsed to find the perps for months, even after she committed suicide, but Anonymous found them in a few hours, at which point the police got off their asses. IN the current the case the police were deliberately derelict in their duty.
So that – teenagers do stupid shit all the time should be
So what – teenagers do stupid shit all the time
Too late – too angry.
This is the entry of Robert L. Rice (the proecutor that decided to drop the case without even waiting for the results of the forensic tests and despite having confessions from the accused) in the Maryville Chamber of Commerce:
http://www.maryvillechamber.com/members/member274.htm
His motto is “To pursue justice and represent the people of Nodaway County in a professional and ethical manner. Victims’ Rights Come First. ”
He won´t get what he deserves, prosecutorial immunity covers his ass. But maybe the people of Maryville can be convinced to not reelect this asshole, the Facebook page “Robert Rice for Nodaway County Prosecutor” has already been taken down.
Come on. We all know America lost its way when gradually turned from its good hearted and honest small town system origins, of simple folk just doing the lord’s work…
#5: What if you offer to have sex with a girl, she turns you down because she says she is not in the mood right now, but might be in the mood later?
No. 49 – captainkhan
Then you don’t have sex. Why is this difficult?
captainkhan at 49 – if you are interested in learning more about consent, please go read the things at the link in #4. You are jumping into a discussion about a young girl who was raped and then horribly wronged by the justice system and her community to try to figure out when you can get sex. It is good that you would like to know more, but there is already a lot written about it that probably answers most of your questions that you can go read, and a lot of them have been linked to in #4.
captainkhan Then you wait for later. This has been “simple answers to simple questions”.
When I first heard of this yesterday, all I could think was “Another one”. My heart breaks for this girl and her family.
How? I mean, just how can supposedly civilised human beings side with the admitted rapists over the girls whom they raped? How can local police and justice officials have failed these girls so badly and still be in their jobs a year after the rape?
/rage
@captainkhan #49
Then there’s no consent. There might be later. Wait and see.
Moreover, I wonder if you realize how creepy you come off when asking such a question.
https://proxy.freethought.online/amilliongods/2013/10/15/a-voice-for-me-a-firestorm-of-helmet-bunnies-sluts-and-rape/
It’s a lot lot worse than we think. The entire story of the rape and the time line may include arson.
@captainkhan (49)
Then you wait for later. Earlier this weekend I was at home with my girlfriend and she was getting a bit passionate and amorous, but I wasn’t feeling especially well (tummy was a bit upset.) I was hesitant, and she noted it, and I said “not feeling up to it right now, maybe later.” She gladly stopped, we cuddled a few minutes, ate some lunch (which helped with my upset stomach actually) and a couple hours later we went off to bed and enjoyed ourselves much more than we would have if we’d acted on our passions earlier.
ugh
fuck everything
i don’t even have the energy to feel outrage or anger or rage or anything anymore. just feel numb and tired.
I’m curious to learn what YOU think your options actually are at that point?
what choices do you see yourself having to decide between?
FWIW, there is at least one local media representative currently panicking in the comments on the anonymous video.
sounds like an imaginary Mad Magazine rip on Leave it to Beaver called “Those Darn Sluts”
filmed in b&w of course.
Lovely. I was in far too good a mood anyway.
A suitable punishment: Shaoyl http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Planet_Named_Shayol
captainkhan, what if you invite someone over for supper and they say not right now, but state they may come over for supper some other time? Does that mean you have the right to force feed them when you decide you want them to eat? That’s what your question seems to imply about sex, that if someone says they might have sex with you in the future that gives you the right to decide when that sex will occur, whether they agree or not.
Sili @ 64. I wasn’t and now I’m like Arlo Guthrie at the draft board. “I wanna kill, Doc, I wanna kill. I wanna see dead burnt bodies and veins between my teeth” et cetera. “But, rape culture doesn’t exist. We don’t condone rape.” Until it’s some over-privileged jock with a sense of unwarranted entitlement and family connections. I recall a “big name” doctor in a small town getting busted for giving his daughter’s friends free “breast exams” in his garage when one his daughters had a sleep-over. All he got was a restriction against seeing female patients under the age of eighteen. Yeah, rape culture doesn’t exist, and I’ve got a bridge, waterfront property and a watch to sell ya, too.
captainkhan @ 52
CONSENT
Act I, scene i
Person A: I would like to have sex with you.
Person B: I’m not interested right now, but maybe later.
Person A: That sounds good. Maybe we could do something non-sexual if you like, as you are a human being and more than just a sex dispenser. I trust you to tell me if you feel differently about sex at a later date.
Person B: If that happens I will. Or if we continue to hang out and establish some sort of ongoing friendship or relationship, you could ask me again at a later date. Just let a reasonable amount of time pass before you do, so that I don’t feel harassed.
Person A: What a grand idea! Now would you enjoy having some frozen yogurt?
Person B: I would!
~Fin~
@TMM:
I dunno about that so much.
Frozen yogurt? Clearly they should be going out for gelato.
Or maybe bing soo.
Tim Aitch
Come the fuck on. “They’re too ugly to rape” isn’t the reason to not rape. Fuck off with that. We don’t do it because it’s a terrible thing to do, not because we wouldn’t derive pleasure from it in this particular instance.
My condolences to all women in the world named Mary. I happen to think Mary is a lovely name, and should not be associated with such a vile place. So from this day forward, I will only refer to the town as “Rapehaven.” A much more appropriate name for the town, wouldn’t you agree? I don’t even know why they would give their town a woman’s name when they obviously have such contempt for women.
@timgeuguen #66
I completely agree with this, and would like to expand:
If you invite someone to supper, and they say not right now but maybe some other time, it does not give them the right to simply drop in one night for dinner (Unless you specifically stated that they could). If someone offers to have sex with you, and you decline but hint at possible later sex, does not mean that the invitation is open indefinitely.
Let me treat that premise as a given for the sake of argument. I really really hate this endemic logic that someone makes a ‘mistake’ thus deserves something horrible to happen to them. Do we let people bleed out on the side of the road when they fuck up and have a car accident? Are we really a society of vicious bastards that we delight in seeing brutality to people?
FFS the purpose of an advanced, technological civilization is and always has been to remove and prevent those horrible consequences for “mistakes”.
Well then clearly you can force her to have sex with you. I mean…duh. That’s obvious right! You’re entirely within your rights there!
What the ever loving fuck is wrong with you?
I don’t want to live in this planet anymore.
You hear that, girls! Got out to drink? You deserve to be punished with rape, oprobrium and arson. Welcome to the post-sexist society!
This is why I get pissy about people going “Oh we coddle our kids too much, back in my day we learned by being hurt when we did stupid stuff” because I think it feeds directly into this assholetarianism
I’m sure harassing the university to get the alleged rapist expelled will be an effective strategy. I can easily believe that the university’s lawyers are currently advising the administration that a student can be expelled on the basis of something that a bunch of people read on the internet.
While it is entirely believable that this happened, I can’t consider it proven enough to join in an internet harassment campaign.
http://www.salon.com/2013/10/15/daisy_and_melinda_coleman_more_victims_may_come_forward/
#78: *rolleyes*
Oh wow, what the fuck is wrong with you people?
I obviously meant in that situation, how long is it appropriate to wait before asking again, not “should I ignore what she says and rape her”, how fucked up do you have to be to think that’s what I was asking?
@Captainkhan
Fucked up enough to bug people with the question.
Look how long is appropriate to wait before asking again? For you? NEVER
Never ask anyone you creepy creepy freak
Dur dur dur
hey look i’m going to go ask a very specific question on when I can pester someone about having sex on a thread about a horrific rape. why does everyone think I’m creepy?
dur dur dur
@# 78 NitricAcid
Well maude forbid the rape of two children motivate you to care enough to say some angry words on their behalf on the internet.
The same damned thing happens every time.
Every.
Damned.
Time.
–
Tim Aitch:
Your
has already been given the treatment it deserves, but your
Needs to be addressed.
Yeah, because there’s nothing quite like a good “labeling” to secure Justice. Pretend that they are somehow intrinsically different from other people everywhere, and therefore a Lawful Target. And then we can tell ourselves that they “had it coming”.
That, incidentally, was Disapproving Sarcasm.
–
Travis:
Or they quite likely feared that they’d be added to the list of victims-after-the-fact, and that the repercussions of speaking up would land on their loved ones.
–
#80, captainkhan:
As is clear from the OP, there are more than a few people in this world who are looking for an excuse to rape.
And what kind of stupid question is that anyway? You’re asking a bunch of strangers who don’t know any thing about the nature of your relationship with this woman to give you a magic number you can use to determine how often you can pester her for sex?
OK, I’ll help. 3,650 days. Unless she tells you otherwise.
Communicate. It’s kind of key.
Must… Resist… Urge.. to Call… for… full-fledged Tarentinesque Vendetta… Must… Resiiiiiiiiiiiist… Bloodlust… Must… Not… Punch… Computer Screen… Messenger… is not… Responsible
NitricAcid #78
Yeah I guess we should allow the process of law to take its proper course.
Oh, wait…
Tell you what, NitricAcid, why don’t you spend a few words coming up with suggestions on how to address the problem, seeing as you don’t like those which have already been put forward.
The 14-year old victim has already attempted suicide twice:
Does anyone know if a fund or a (heavily moderated…) support page has been set up for the victims? I have been choking back tears, and don’t have the spoons today to read about this story any further. (At least not elsewhere.)
I’m going to join Jacob Schmidt #70 in protest over Tim Aitch #40’s “too ugly to rape” bullshit, and add on a protest of my own.
This is not an “inbred hillbillies” problem. Stop with that otherizing shit. This is not a rural poor people problem, it is not a small town problem. This is a rape enabling, victim blaming, hero worshipping, boys-will-be-boys, kierarchy is everywhere and it’s seriously fucking up people’s lives so we need to change our entire culture from the top down and the inside out problem. This isn’t something that comes from them over there, whoever the scapegoat of the day may be. It’s us, it’s everywhere.
Absolutely no need to throw rural poor folks under the bus in order to distance oneself from the behavior of rapists and rape enablers.
Nitricacid
Shining a light on institutions that are actively supporting rape culture does not constitute harassment.
He is a rapist. He confessed on tape that he is a rapist. He has already racked up a victim count, which is absofuckinglutely grounds for not admitting him to college in the first place! He should be in jail, not free to continue drugging and raping women, which is exactly what he will be doing in college.
When that happens, the college will be liable for the rapes, just like a bar that serves alcohol to an already drunk person who goes on to kill people by driving drunk can be held liable for the damage caused by the drunk person.
Monitor note:
Regarding “inbred hillbillies”
Please remember that bigoted insults are not appropriate on Pharyngula:
The Rules
I am also wondering: Has anyone given any thought to launching an “It Gets Better”-style campaign for rape and sexual assault victims?
Well post #5 gave a bunch of complicated guidelines so I was just asking for some elaboration regarding a certain point about that. If your goal is to educate people about this stuff, then maybe it should help if you don’t act like a dick to them when they want to learn about it.
Oh and that was a completely hypothetical question BTW.
@88 irisvanderpluym:
Yes, there is a fund:
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fundraiser-for-daisy-coleman
And here are some other links that might be useful for people that want to help Daisy and her family (afaict, the author of this page also currently tries to get confirmation that the money raised in the fund mentioned above will be directly transferred to the family):
http://www.mommyish.com/2013/10/15/anonymous-vows-to-help-daisy-coleman/
captainkhan, it’s actually explained right there in the document Caine posted:
Communicate, communicate, communicate. Treat other people like PEOPLE. Do not harass. Use common sense.
These are not difficult concepts and they’ve been laid out very plainly.
captainkhan
Please don’t use gendered insults, like “dick.”
I’m sure you’ll be hearing more about your choice to ask “hypothetical questions,” from others. At this point, you may wish to consider an abject apology followed by large amounts of shutting the fuck up.
Captain Khan in #52:
later clarified the question in #80:
In that case?
When she turns 18.
@93 Gendered insults like “dick” are also not ok by the rules.
And of course it was hypothetical. It’s always hypothetical. Ahem.
@Tethys:
Not inherently, no. But the ends do not justify such means and harassment has occurred in situations like this.
@captainkhan #80
Obviously, it wasn’t very obvious.
To be safe, I’d recommend saying “Okay, let me know if you change your mind” and then never ask again unless she tells you that she’s changed her mind.
More to the point, you still sound like you’re looking for a loop hole. It isn’t possible to give a blanket answer to that kind of question and when you ask us to, you sound like you’re angling for a rape permit. That’s why you’re getting the response you are.
So, you’re new here, I assume? Because if you’re not, I wonder how you’ve missed all the thread where assholes come in arguing exactly that. It’s not at all uncommon to have people drop in on threads like this, trying to argue for some grey area where they don’t have to care about consent.
This is not our first rodeo. If it’s yours, maybe you should just stay in the back and watch until you’ve learned how to avoid getting gored. E.g. have you read the Sexism 101 link dump, posted back at #4? If not, now would be a really good time to do so.
Well if you must know, I ask what some people would consider weird questions because I am seriously autistic and not fake autistic either, but actually diagnosed by professional physicians.
Also since when is dick a gender slur, it just means a rude person. The same as calling someone a douche or an asshole.
irisvanderplum
Um, the only thing that will make it better is ending rape culture. While being bullied does get better with growing up, I don’t think it is applicable to rape victims. Perhaps a “Its NOT Your Fault, It was never Your Fault” style of campaign?
Sorry but “asshole” is not on the spectrum. Not an excuse
I’m searching for ways to support the Coleman family. Via #justice4daisy, word is that Daisy has requested donations go to the KC Pet Project shelter. Justice 4 Daisy and Paige twitterstorm to raise awareness for both October 22 protests (Anon’s op and Justice4Daisy’s demonstration) will begin today at 5pm Eastern time/ 2pm Pacific time (three hours from now).
Roundup with links to the Pet Project fundraiser, Twitterstorm instructions, screenshots of the relevant tweets and more: http://www.mommyish.com/2013/10/15/anonymous-vows-to-help-daisy-coleman/
Article on the Justice 4 Daisy page and movement: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/the-justice-for-daisy-movement-has-begun
The second girl raped, via her mother’s Twitter account, looks to be going public also: Twitter screenshot via mommyish
@onamission (89)
It’s like racism. People toss out the “hillbillies” or rural racists as a “hey it only happens out there so let’s just otherize them all.”
It happens everywhere!
kesara #94: Thank you. Very much appreciated.
captainkhan #93:
As noted, your question was already answered before you asked it by Caine at #5. Perhaps your goal should be to educate yourself?
Captainkhan
BZZZT! wrong! A dick is slang for the sexual anatomy that is found on males, which is what makes it a gendered slur. Everyone has an asshole, so it is an equal opportunity slur.
Douche is actually harmful to women for the most part, and is also not limited to just women, so it is fine to call someone a douche here.
In that case I would doubly recommend that you read all the provided links. If you’re having trouble with social cues and conventions, then obviously jumping right into a thread on a very sensitive topic is a really bad idea.
A douche is an object, whereas a dick is a body part. An asshole is also a body part, but one that everyone has, as opposed to a dick. That’s why “dick” is a gendered slur and the others aren’t.
Oh and BTW, some of those links don’t work, like this one:
http://lgbteducationforum.com/?p=123
#80 captainkhan
My answer to when do you ask her again is, you don’t. You trust that she knows you’d like to have sex with her, she hasn’t forgotten your proposition, and she’ll get back to you on that should she decide that she feels similarly because she is capable of making that decision for herself without being pestered about it.
Also do keep in mind that society tends to frown on women who say no, so for many of us, the only acceptable way to say no (acceptable meaning with least risk of verbal or physical violence) is to say “not right now, maybe later.”
#110: That is a good answer! Thank you, that was all I was asking about.
Tethys #102:
If rape culture magically ended today, it would not necessarily make anything better for those who have already borne the brunt of it.
I’m interested specifically in addressing the suicide attempts by rape victims, especially those who are bullied and ostracized (and driven from their homes and communities, their family members targeted, etc.). It’s at least as applicable to them as it is to suicidal LGBT youth, at whom the “It Gets Better” campaign was targeted.
This level of stupidity is almost painful. Hilarious, but almost painful.
actually, you know, that’s not true.
Teh Rulez, quite rightly imo, prohibit “bigoted slurs”. That category is, quite rightly imo, conventionally interpreted as including a prohibition of sexist slurs.
The extension to all “gendered” slurs, however, is merely a local cultural convention that, historically, was intended to dispel the appearance of hypocrisy. (Personally I see nothing wrong with calling somebody a ‘dick’ or a ‘prick’, as appropriate, regardless of their gender or fluidity thereof. Because it’s not sexist, and there’s really nothing inherently wrong with being ‘gendered’ in any way. But I usually do as the local Romans do to avoid unnecessary conflict. oops.)
captainkhan: A bunch of us are also for reals on the spectrum, professional diagnosis and all. Being on the spectrum doesn’t prevent you from getting chewed on when you do something shitty, which you should know from meatspace (since those of us on the spectrum tend to get chewed on often for faux pas we may not know we have made and which may not make sense to us–doesn’t make it less ‘real’ if we don’t get it.)
The fact that you are reading the links bodes well for you, but don’t assume that all persons on the spectrum will react the same way as you do. Some of that is just you.
112
I mean, does it actually have to get better for an It Gets Better project to work?
Irisvanderplum
Im speaking as a rape victim. IME the things that make recovering from that trauma really difficult are mostly caused by trying to convince people to believe that trauma occured.
Being traumatized and having no way to redress the wrong, and then compounding the wrong by being blamed for it, is the reason so many victims develop depression and ideation.
I’m getting old, and it has actually gotten worse for womens rights in my lifetime, so I can do nothing but be cynical at the idea that it gets better when the subject is rape. Sorry, don’t mean to pick at you. A support campaign could be very helpful, but getting justice would be better.
NightShadeQueen
Well, as long as the message of the campaign is different then the message ‘it gets better’, because at this point it doesn’t seem to be the case.
More background on the investigation and a detailed timeline, written in July:
http://kcur.org/post/why-was-maryville-rape-case-dropped
http://www.kcur.org/post/sexual-assult-maryville-timeline
I’d talk to a camera for an “it gets better project” in a heartbeat.
Sorry, I retract my above comment. I was confusing the ‘it gets better’ campaign with something else: in my mind the ‘it gets better’ was a reflection on the entire culture (and I’m not seeing any improvements there), and not that it gets better for a single victim over the years.
And I typo’ed my comment earlier: It should be:
I mean, doesn’t it actually have to get better for an It Gets Better project to work?
Interesting: I think we are talking about two different things with respect to “it.”
“It” the culture. If we’re talking about that “it,” then yes, the culture actually has to get better to say that an It Gets Better project works.
“It” the life of the individual. This is how I’ve always understood the “it”, which is probably why some of this discussion has been confusing to me, and perhaps others too.
NightShadeQueen 116/122:
I hope that clears things up.
Tethys #117: I am also speaking as a rape survivor, and I agree with your comment 100%. Your suggestion of an “Its NOT Your Fault, It was never Your Fault” campaign would be a very welcome and IMO necessary part of an “It”—your life—”Gets Better” campaign. I think we are on the same page, just got our “its” mixed up.
mouthyb #120:
I suspect your “it” is the same as my “it”—as in, this is my story, and I hope you stick around because your life really can be wonderful, here is what helped me, etc. If such a campaign helped save a single teenage rape victim from killing hirself, it would be a success in my book. If it indirectly helped the other “it”—culture—get better too? WIN-WIN.
Frankly, as Tethys points out that particular “it” has been getting worse. Maybe it’s time for this kind of approach.
captainkhan:
They aren’t at all complicated. Just read that post, the whole thing. Go slowly. Every situation is addressed. Consent is not this big huge bug bear, and it’s quite easy to navigate as long as you consider women to be human beings, rather than convenient fucktoys. You were also given a number of excellent answers, so try focusing on those, please.
Using gendered slurs here is against the commenting rules, please don’t use them. If you’d like to continue chatting about consent issues, please take that discussion to thunderdome, where it would be more appropriate. Thank you.
Monitor note:
Please remember:
Justice is more important than civility. But aspire to be charitable at first.
Recognize that your words may not perfectly convey your content — and that the words of other commenters may not perfectly convey theirs. When necessary, clarify what you mean, or ask other commenters to clarify what they meant.
When someone says something apparently stupid or vile, verify before opening fire. Express your objection and ask them to rephrase their statement. Then open fire.
I want to kick him in the crotch until he’s legally dead.
I love how Missouri is pronounced “misery” all four times.
I’m out of words otherwise.
David Marjanović@ 127:
I went through Basic in Missouri. And every local pronounced it the same way: misery.
Matter of fact, my post was at Fort Lost-in-the-Woods, Misery.
Very appropriate.
Yeah. Me too.
Then again, there is a positive here. When I was in high school, the victim would, most likely, have never come forward and, even if she did, no one outside of the town would ever have noticed that there was a problem.
Irisvanderplum
I agree completely with starting a support campaign modeled after It Gets Better.
I think we need a different phrase, something like “We care” but catchy. I welcome any and all suggestions from the hivemind
bushrat #126:
I object to your statement:
…because cruelty, violence and vigilante “justice” only begets more of the same, and thus is unhelpful in the extreme. However, I recognize that your words may not perfectly convey your content. I ask that you rephrase your statement if that is not what you meant, because I would like to verify whether you in fact said something vile or stupid before I open fire.
^This is me aspiring to be charitable at first. How’d I do, Caine? ;)
Tethys:
The Fault Line Project.
Irisvanderpluym:
Absolutely fabulously.
QFT everything irisvanderpluym just said at #123.
…We did have the Stunned Silence thread not long ago. A lot of folks spoke up in that thread for the first time because someone else’s story was so similar to their experience – and it’s so much easier to see that what happened to a them wasn’t their fault, when it’s so difficult to accept that what happened to any “me” wasn’t “my” fault. (And also because they could speak under pseudonyms and not get flooded with retaliatory victim-blaming.) Plus We the Legion have spoken up enough that we present a wide range of experiences, of many genders, ages, circumstances, and attackers,. IMHO there’s a need for “it was never your fault” to be messaged through firsthand experience, even when it’s speaking to isolated victims of sexual assault and rape.
footnote for background: survivor support group Pandora’s Project put together a video called Finding Hope back in 2011. They seem quiescent now. Here’s a link to it on youtube but I have not watched it, as I’m reserving my spoons to deal with text today. (youtube link)
irisvanderpluym @123
Call me an incurable optimist, but I really think that “It”, the culture, is also getting better even though it might not feel like it. People are actually beginning to talk about rape, not just as a “bad thing” that we should bury in the closet and pretend never actually happens for realsies unless we need to throw a black man or homeless vagrant in jail.
But rather as it is, as being as common as it is, as being as supported by culture as it is. People are actually raising hell over Steubenville and this case, using it to not just point out these individual cases, but all cases of rape and it’s becoming more and more bizarre to be a rape denialist trying to pretend that these experiences are everywhere.
Where rape survivors feel more comfortable talking about it with each other and with the general populace and highlighting the enduring damage it causes and where resources for rape survivors consists of more than just saying “well carry some mace and learn some kung-fu for next time”. I mean, there’s campaigns actually putting the onus where it belongs and teaching people not to abuse and it’s actually working to lower rape rates.
Sure, the millions of rapists and those who defend them are trying to shout and harass and beat women and men who dare talk about it, but they’ve always done that and this time, they are getting all emotional because it’s not always working as a silencing tactic. People are even calling out the powerful or the socially supported rather than accepting it as the price of oppression.
Things are changing for the better, it’s just that transition periods suck universally for those in the midst.
bushrat @126
Monitor note:
Please remember not to write anything that could be interpreted as a threat or an invitation to self-harm.
The Rules
@114
Thank god you’re here, Chas, to let ladybrainz like Caine and myself in on the secrets of what is and is not considered sexist. or bigoted. You’ve added a great deal to the conversation.
On the It Gets better campaign idea: How about “Help is out there! You are Not Alone”, with a web address listing all of the available services and support groups, searchable by location? Including online forums?
Just my two cents.
Oh, and in the meantime
ThunderfootConcordance uploaded a video where he reads from a published article where the researchers found out that women who get very drunk are more likely to get raped than women who are sober and therefore women need to drink less.Aaaaaaaaaaargh
Drunk women get raped because rapists target them. And if they don’t get drunk voluntarily they are “helped”. It’s like saying that those who drive are mire likely to be involved in a road accident, so drive less!
Cerberus von Snarkmistress #133:
You are right: in some ways things are very much getting better, and it is easy (for me at least) to lose sight of that with all of the backlash—especially in the context of stories like the OP.
Yes. That’s what I was hinting at above, when I suggested that an It Gets Better-style campaign aimed at individual survivors may indirectly also improve the culture as well. Ideally, it would contribute to survivors feeling more comfortable talking about it and highlight the enduring damage, point people to helpful resources, and all of the other positives you mention.
woodsong #136
Well… the point of this proposed campaign is to reach, directly or through their networks, the victims and their peers who are getting shut down by (exogenous or endogenous) victim-blaming. Many victims don’t realize they can or should contact a sexual assault crisis line because whatever happened to them didn’t count as sexual assault, obviously, right? First you have to realize you do in fact deserve help and you were wronged. The corollary is that many, many victims have been peers to someone who was raped – even in this case, where it’s likely 10 other girls were victims of the same guy but kept silent – and realized that the silencing and blaming now apply to them too.
Those of us who’ve been in similar situations… what sort of messages would have helped?
Oops, didn’t mean to submit that comment yet. Here is the rest of my reply to
Irisvanderplum
I agree with the support campaign idea as noted above.
I think that to effect social change, we need to target the institutions that coddle rapists, and the prosecutors who decide that rape is prosecuted at their discretion.
I suggest targeting high school sports programs with mandatory awareness training being required by law to participate. Football teams in particular have been producing/enabling rapists for decades, and it is high time to hold them accountable for the misery those rapists unleash on the world.
Giliell #137:
There’s even an example in this Maryville case, which the media outlets are leaving out of almost every account that I’ve seen so far.
— warning for pressure to drink —
http://kcur.org/post/why-was-maryville-rape-case-dropped
And some eight hours later, during her rape trauma exam, her BAC is still 0.14. (according to the timeline linked from that article.)
Giliell #137:
There’s even an example in this Maryville case, which the media outlets are leaving out of almost every account that I’ve seen so far.
— warning for pressure to drink — asterisk mine to avoid filter
http://kcur.org/post/why-was-maryville-rape-case-dropped
And some eight hours later, during her rape trauma exam, her BAC was still 0.14. (according to the timeline linked from that article.)
A “you’re not alone” or a “It wasn’t your fault” project…seems like it’d be helpful.
For further background reading on teen and college rape culture in particular, ThinkProgress has a Maryville summary article with lots of links.
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/10/15/2781251/maryville-rape-case-multiple-victims/
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/10/08/2748631/national-study-adolescents-sexual-violence/
The campaign I always wanted to start around sexual & domestic violence was:
“You can talk about it”
To be perfectly blunt, there are many of us that have heard “It’s not your fault” and simply not believed it. Training runs deep. Moreover, “It’s not your fault” only accidentally makes talking about rape & DV & assault fair game for talking about this stuff. There are far more people out there wishing they had someone to talk to than wishing it wasn’t their fault.
Admittedly, this is because it doesn’t occur to them to wish it wasn’t their fault, but the isolation of S/DV is huge. I think that activists think with activist minds. That, generally, is good as it means that we’ve absorbed lessons about what works to make things better. But it also simply puts things in a different place.
All the kids out there who can’t tell a person who might help them stay safe, all the adults out there who think that they are the problem when they want to talk about what’s happening, they need a campaign that simply is “You can talk about it.”
It needn’t be aimed at – shouldn’t be aimed at – (recent) victims/survivors. We need bystanders to talk about bystander intervention, parents to talk about the trauma of moving, we need all these conversations.
While pieces of this get done with individual campaigns – and while I **like** those individual campaigns – the backlash that tries to shut down those campaigns proves to me that we still need “You can talk about it.”
Moreover, my experience as a victim tells me that there was far too long a period when I was held back by simply thinking I couldn’t talk about it. When the conversations start, “It’s not your fault,” can be part of it, but for those who aren’t activists, for those who are simply alone and wouldn’t believe “It’s not your fault” anyway, I think we need to start in a more basic place.
Open. Listening. Welcoming, Waiting.
And, I would argue, it’s hard to do on the internet. In my dreams? First you put up billboards/ bus signs/ etc. Then, volunteers go door to door or around workplaces, just saying hi and asking if the person has seen the campaign. If not, you hand them a flyer. For both cases, the volunteer then asks if the person has any thoughts about the campaign, or about violence, or about tools to make people safer. Ask the non-activists what they would like to see as a response to S/DV. If the conversation goes well enough, the volunteer can ask for examples from real life that help the volunteer understand why the person believes some given thing. Maybe that will cause the person to open up about friends or family or themselves.
We never ask directly if people have been raped, but we’re ready for all the stories of people impacted by S/DV: the children of violated mothers, the adult men who could never say what had happened – any of them. There is no victim or bystander or single target we’re looking for. We even listen to the people who go on about false accusations without ever experiencing one – the MRAs who believe that false accusations are 15x more common than good reports. If we get those types thinking that it’s okay to talk about S/DV they’ll encounter someone with good info eventually.
If we create a world where we can really talk about it, ending it gets a whole lot easier.
Pteryxx @139:
Yes, I see what you’re saying. Obviously, the campaign needs far more than just a slogan; what I was suggesting was a possible slogan. Probably not the best one–maybe “It Wasn’t Your Fault” would be better?
I’m not a victim myself. The perspective that I do have on this is working with my husband as he’s dealt with his childhood abuse issues. In his case, he didn’t know of any other victims, and thought his situation was so far outside the norm that he wouldn’t be believed. Telling me was a major step, and I don’t know whether he could have coped if I hadn’t taken him at his word and been supportive.
My sympathies in this are entirely with the victims. The entitled assholes who commit such acts deserve to be held fully accountable and made examples of.
woodsong 136:
Yes, (thoroughly vetted) resources should be prominently featured. I recently updated a collection of rape, abuse and domestic violence resources for my blog, and it wasn’t easy. And I wasn’t dealing with a traumatic crisis while simultaneously trying to run them down.
Caine #131:
Yes. Yes. Yes. It took me a minute to get it, but now that I do I love this. Tethys: this directly incorporates your idea about “fault.” And more. THANK YOU.
I just registered these urls:
faultlineproject.com
faultlineproject.org
thefaultlineproject.com
thefaultlineproject.org
The Feminist Hivemind has offered to assist.
Um, what have I just gotten myself into? :o
Crip Dyke @144:
I like that!! “You can talk about it” is absolutely something that is badly needed. Break the silence!
“You can talk about it” respects the person’s agency, too; they can decide whether or not to speak, and to whom, and how.
Honestly it shouldn’t TAKE victims going full-public and interviews on CNN to give them social support. Us mouthy people and activists already decided to speak out. But this isn’t about US, it’s about the other 10 victims who shouldn’t have to.
Irisvanderpluym:
You’re welcome. I’d like to see an option for written accounts as well as video. I know video has impact, but I won’t do one for, you know, reasons. I would be willing to write an account though.
Woodsong & Pteryxx, why not:
The Fault Line Project
You Can Talk About It
irisvanderpluym: My it was one’s life, yes.
On therapeutic moments: For me, that was knowing that other people have had my experiences. Most of the stories I heard were not like mine, and for awhile I felt lonely because I hadn’t run into people who were dealing with the sort of long term issues I do.
yeah, this was actually foremost in my mind when I first conceived YCTAI 12 years ago. All the “break the silence” stuff sounds too much like an order to people who are already overwhelmed – people with whom I worked at a shelter would
often(okay, occasionally) tell me that the staff’s focus on “break the silence” made them feel guilty for not talking when they would prefer to keep silent.I was talking to jack above about respecting agency. I think it’s vital. “You can…” leaves open, “or not, if you don’t want to.” That was important to me.
Caine – yes. The name of the group and the framing of the campaign don’t have to be the same thing. The fault line project is wonderful and should not be lost.
Crip Dyke #152
Dangit, I JUST read something in all my researching today — actually it was in the Lounge, and now that I found it, that was you. :>
Which matches what I’ve found about survivor counseling, so – yes, this.
You know those stories you hear about where a man is accused and convicted of rape, and months or years later his accuser comes forward and says she made it up? I wonder how many of those were rapes which actually did happen, but the victim got so much pressure and harassment from the rapist’s family and friends that she was forced to recant.
Yeah, I do stumble upon a point now and again. That’s why I keep bandages and betadine in the house.
So…they’ve done a good job and have no doubts about what happened. However, there is no case.
How does that work exactly?
And bearing in mind that we have no case, despite having no doubts about what happened, the “I guess they’re going to have to get over it£ might be one of the least sympathetic things I’ve ever read.
Caine #149:
Absolutely. It might also lend itself to an Everyday Sexism-type Twitter feed as well. Also: audio. I probably wouldn’t do a video myself either, but I very well might write and/or record audio. Maybe with an image upload option, so that contributors can still express themselves visually in a way that would not reveal their identity.
Thank you everyone for your suggestions: “You can talk about it” is fantastic. I have contacted the It Gets Better Project to see if they might be willing to provide advice or insight. In any event I need to sleep on this, replenish my spoons, and think about how best to proceed—I don’t want to mess this up.
Umm… there isn’t already something exactly like this I’m just not aware of, is there?
irisvanderpluym: I did some searching and all I found was the 2011 video I linked in #132, and the various transient twitter campaigns such as #ididnotreport.
Pteryxx 159 – Thanks. Then it’s full speed ahead.
First, I like the discussion regarding finding safe ways for survivors to discuss what happened. This place gave me that. And I thank all of you.
Second, why the fuck doesn’t Barnett get charged with production of child pornography? If he used a cell phone, that could bump it up to a federal offense?
iris – if there’s something ehar I can do to help te66@ with this, please let me know? I think you already know how to get hold of me, if not I’ve dropped the elements of an addy in that first sentence, which added to the gmail thingy, will reach me. I can write, I can edit, I can help translate foreign-language submissions or provide subtitling for such, that kind of thing, might be able to help coordinate translations if you’d like, I’ve worked as a translation manager before, on top of my own language pairs.
Irisvanderpluym:
Yes, please. I’m better at talking than writing, this would be a wonderful option for those of us who don’t want to do video.
#47 Travis
I do. You either stand up and fight the status quo or you support it.
That’s not how small towns work. It’s quite literally all for or against. Anyone who wavers in their support for the rapist at all will be pushed back in line. Unless a group of them speak out or one of their influental members steps up, it will stay the same. It will happen again. They will defend their people. Because “they are good people” and “stuff doesn’t happen like that here”. The victims are cast out for not keeping silent, for disrupting their peace and for tarnishing the good image. Appearances are everything. Everyone knows everyone and all their secrets. They keep each other’s secrets. If someone breaks the pact of silence, the town falls upon them. Everything was fine before the victim showed up or spoke out, so clearly it’s all their fault. Unless there’s an unraveling of victims coming forward and shit getting done, I know where my betting money lies. Considering the internet backlash, my money is on more pressure on silence and harsher punishment when the next event happens.
It wasn’t the rapist’s first time. It’s not the first rapist in their town. It’s not the first time they’ve protected a rapist. I bet it won’t be the last.
I am a Daisy. My abuser was my father. He was no hotshot with connections. He was just the Golden Boy of his generation. Mother was a school teacher, father was a veteran and a firefighter. He was on the football team and fought for his country. He came back and was a carpenter. As far as everyone was concerned he could do no wrong. Because bad things don’t happen there. He had no power or money. He drank every paycheck away and kept our power on because of a friend at the power company. We didn’t get kicked out because the owners of the house were family friends. He was protected. I was the trouble maker. I was sacrificed for the “good of the town” though they will insist it didn’t happen that way. They are lying to themselves to protect themselves. Rapists are seen as monsters breed in the intercity, their little town is a haven. It’s quiet, it’s safe and they will kill to keep it. What they did to me, they taught their children to do it. The cycle repeats.
Same shit, different day. It’s not just small towns, they just seem to shock people. People expects someone to stand up for the victim. It’s easier that way. In cities, it’s the police, rapists and circles of people around the victim that pulls the same shit as Maryville. Victims cut ties, move, or stay if they can’t leave. There’s not the same resources like shelters and victim centers. There’s no layer above the personal circle for distance. In a small town, it’s all personal. For every victim, there’s a little Maryville circle: harrash, deny, blame, shame the victim and protect the rapist. In Maryville, there’s 12,000 people. In Steubenville, Ohio there’s 20,000 people.
I am not surprised. I’ve lived this. Moving to a city half the country away, and nothing has changed. I have to go online for international support.
PZ states “the facts of the case are inarguable.”
PZ: “he plied her with alcohol until she could barely stand up, and then had sex with her.”
~According to Kansas City’s NPR affiliate, Barnett “admitted he knew Daisy had been drinking before he had sex with her, but that she was only “buzzed” at the time and later drank more.”
PZ: “One of his buddies videotaped the act.”
~NPR reported that the cameraphone video was 5-10 seconds long and that it only depicted “the two kissing, naked from the waist down.”
PZ: “He dumped the unconscious girl on the porch of her home”
~The Kansas City Star claimed the mother found Daisy “barely conscious” not unconscious.
NPR reported “the younger girl is told by the boys to go in and let Daisy stay outside and ‘vomit.’ Daisy is propped up beside the house.” There’s no mention of her being unconscious in either report.
PZ: “He freaking confessed to all of the above to the police.”
~Given the discrepancies between PZ’s version and news reports, it’s unlikely Barnett’s statement to police was a ‘confession’ matching “all of the above.”
PZ: “The boy said she had said no repeatedly, and he had sex with her anyway.”
~No news report says Daisy said “no”. PZ’s statement refers to the other boy and girl, not to Barnett and Daisy. PZ’s ambiguous wording blurs the distinction.
PZ: “These boys ought to be in jail, or at the very least in the juvenile court system.”
~The other boy was put into the juvenile court system immediately, contrary to the impression PZ gives. Police questioned Barnett the same day Daisy was discovered on the porch. He was arrested the next day (Jan 9) and jailed. Charges were not dropped until March 19.
PZ Myers’ exaggerations are irresponsible and sensationalistic.
http://kcur.org/post/sexual-assault-maryville-timeline
I also wonder how much of this is not rape culture, but rather jock worship and political connectedness. If Barnett’s crime had been something other than rape–say, if he’d robbed a convenience store, or beaten up a nerdy classmate and put him in the hospital–would it have just as determinedly been swept under the rug?
(I’m posing a question here, not suggesting an answer. I really have no idea one way or the other.)
Oh dear, the rape apologists are back.
Oh hey we actually have someone defending the rape. Well done internet!
@Rexlittle
I’ll give you a hint. Was anyone raped?
rexlittle @ 166, you answered your own question. It’s rape culture. Rape and sexual assault are not treated the same as other crimes.
The everlasting comfort of a sense of proportion:
http://politicmo.com/2013/10/15/rep-mike-thomson-media-blowing-maryville-alleged-assault-case-out-of-proportion/
Me too.
This is not one of those occasions where you missed the chance to be a positive bystander and later regret it – I should have been the one to call the ambulance, I could have told that bully to go away, I would have done more or better if I’d thought more quickly.
In cases like this, you get to make that choice every single day. The fact that you’ve done nothing, or done the wrong thing, up until now doesn’t stop you from doing the right thing from now on. And these people are choosing to do the wrong thing themselves and to support other people doing wrong things. They’re choosing every single day to do bad things that make the bad they’ve already done even worse.
Illium Fuit, post 165
Re “no news report” stating that Daisy “said no,” see text and link below, from The Kansas City Star.”
– That one bit is enough to call into question… well… you. In this case only in terms of your research and intent.
– But overall, the fact that you are even capable of focusing your doubt on whether a girl did or didn’t “say no,” while experiencing non trivial internal tearing while in a state in which no one, under any circumstances, can be viewed as anything other than meat (and having been encouraged to descend further into that state) makes anything you say suspect, at a bare minimum.
“… The younger girl, who admitted drinking that night but denied doing so after arriving at Barnett’s, said she went into a bedroom with the 15-year-old boy, who was an acquaintance. He is unidentified in this article because his case was handled in juvenile court, but sheriff’s records include his interview, in which he said that although the girl said “no” multiple times, he undressed her, put a condom on and had sex with her. …”
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/10/12/4549775/nightmare-in-maryville-teens-sexual.html
Rexlittle:
This is very much part of Rape Culture:
http://www.marshall.edu/wcenter/sexual-assault/rape-culture/
The effects of Rape Culture are also on display in the disgusting comment preceding yours.
Statement from Missouri Lt. Gov. Kinder:
http://themissouritorch.com/2013/10/15/breaking-lt-gov-kinder-calls-grand-jury-daisy-coleman-case/
@165:
So, do you doubt that Daisy was raped? Is that your point? Attempt to poke holes in PZs post so that people will doubt what happened?
Damn, Rape Apologists piss me off.
Missouri AG says he can’t reopen sex assault case
“Nanci Gonder, a spokeswoman for Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster, said in a statement Tuesday that the office has received petitions in the case but that “the Attorney General’s Office does not have the authority under the laws of the state of Missouri to review a prosecutor’s discretionary decisions in particular cases.”
Isn’t that convenient?
–
rexlittle:
Floor wax and dessert topping.
Countless individual experiences of bullying suggest that the answer is yes. Connections = Status, and Celebrity* = Status; and Status = protection.
Or is not “High School Sports Player Torments Nerdy Geek” a stereotype where you come from?
*In this case, the “football player” part of the mix.
–
@Tony:
From PZ’s post:
are you ready for the ameliorating factors? — all of the boys involved were popular high school jocks. Matthew Barnett’s grandfather is a state congressman. And the goddamned town full of righteous assholes who populate Maryville, Missouri joined up to recite the sacred mantra of “boys will be boys” and to condemn and harass the victims.”
None of that (except maybe the “boys will be boys” part) matches your quoted description of rape culture. Looks to me like jock worship and political pull at work.
I’m certainly not denying the existence of rape culture, or that it could have played a role in the Barnett case. I’m just questioning how much blame should be assigned to rape culture in this case, and how much to the other factors I named. And I do mean questioning–I don’t have an answer, and wouldn’t presume to assert one without a careful study of cases which were similar, and those which were similar except for one major difference (a non-sexual assault instead of a rape, or a rape committed by an unpopular boy without political connections).
Rexlittle:
Ok, lets try this again.
Perhaps the first definition of rape culture was not detailed enough. I hope this one will be sufficient.
The rape was trivialized.
The victim was blamed.
The rape was excused.
The rape was tolerated.
This case is a perfect example of Rape Culture.
Rexlittle:
By the way, when “boys will be boys” is used to excuse rape, that very much is part of Rape Culture. No maybe about it. Rape is not some force of nature that just happens to people. Rape is a conscious decision on the part of an individual. They may not think their actions are rape, but that is irrelevant. Sex without consent is rape.
And just to clarify, informed consent cannot be made when the victim is drunk, underaged, or any and all combinations of such fuckwittery. Clear consent required being reasonably sober, of age, and no other legal impediments to supplying true adult consent. Where were these in this case? Put up the evidence that will stand up in court, or shut the fuck up.
Pteryxx @ 104:
Fuck yeah. The Internet is real life, damn it, and people caring on the Internet is important. I’m so glad that people paying attention could provide at least emotional support. And hopefully other, more material forms of support.
Tethys @ 102:
Can I donate to this? Like, now? RIght now? Please? I’m
happywiling to wait until the groundwork is done, but seriously… money flagged. Hit me up.Crip Dyke @ 145 expresses objections to the particular phrasing, and raises some good points. Money still flagged, in whatever permutation ends up being the final one.
Caine @ 150:
I’m hesitant in commenting, given what you’ve shared in this thread and others, but … part of the problem seems to be that you (general, not personal) can’t talk about it — without, say, your house getting burned down. Is there a catchier slogan that implies You Can Talk About It to These People? Slogans aren’t my forte.
On the topic itself, I only wish to express — again — that this community has helped me understand things that are outside my experience (with some caveats I don’t want to go into here). Thank you all. As cheesy as it sounds, it’s helped me become a better person.
On a whimsical note, why is it I can’t offer technical support (website development, etc) in this particular comment thread and be re-routed to whoever needs it most? PHARYNGULA NEEDS THIS FUNCTION!
Rexlittle, at this point in time, it may be helpful and informative to interrogate yourself and any possible subconscious biases you have as to why you are resistant to the idea that this is an example of rape culture in action.
If this case doesn’t qualify, what does?
Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! @175,
You ask what my point is. Whether I want people to “doubt what happened”. The answer is no.
You wrote that “this case is a perfect example of Rape Culture.”
I agree: that’s the only sane conclusion.
After all, 1. Daisy ‘could barely stand up’ prior to the rape, 2. the rape act was caught on video, 3. Barnett left Daisy unconscious in freezing weather, and 4. Barnett “confessed to all of the above.”
and yet the authorities STILL overlooked this mountain of ironclad evidence and dropped all charges, without either boy going to jail, or at least 5. the juvenile court system.
Except: the case I just described, 1 thru 5, only exists in the form of PZ’s assertions without evidence. No other account– not NPR’s timeline, nor the Kansas City Star article which PZ linked, nor the solid case built by the County Sheriff’s office, nor the mother and Daisy’s own public appearances– matches PZ’s version.
If you’re going to assert “This case is a perfect example of Rape Culture,” I’ll agree either way:
You can stick to the actual facts, and have Rape Culture mean something credible.
Or you can stick with PZ’s debunked version and have Rape Culture mean Clinging To False Assertions Because Fairytales Are More Satisfying Than True Stories.
Don’t worry, it does not diminish the credibility of the girls to point out the flaws in PZ’s credibility.
1. Daisy had a phenomenally high blood alcohol level the next day, and was the victim of a blackout — she couldn’t remember most of the events that had occurred. 2. The camera man claimed to have recorded “dry humping” in one account, and in another, both parties were naked from the waist down. 3 & 4. Barnett and cronies confessed to dropping off dead drunk Daisy on her porch, she was discovered by her mother several hours later. 5. You’re a lying ass.
Your objections amount to hyperskeptical distortions of all of the descriptions as a tool to diminish the severity of what was done. Fuck off.
Classic concern troll. Points for sticking to a traditional format. Good execution–lack of spittle flecks. 8 out of 10. Well done! Finally our request for better trolls is being answered by the Gods of the Internet.
This might be slightly tangential, but on the theme of talking about rape, here is a recent speech on that subject by my friend, Amanda Dufresne at the One Young World Summit.
Irisvanderpluyme, Caine, Crip Dyke, et al., I love The Fault Line idea!
/relurks
I second that. And I also just kind of generally love you.
I hate to break it to you, but this troll is sadly deficient. PZ’s already debunked it, but I guess I feel it worth it to counter said troll with, y’know quotes from the Kansas Star. After all, our hyperskeptical troll claims:
Which, apparently means, that PZ is factually wrong in claiming that the Kansas Star stated that:
Well, here are the quotes from the Kansas Star directly contradicting your claims, O Person Who Claims To Have Read The Articles:
(1) Daisy could ‘barely stand up’ prior to the rape:
I’d like to see you defend the ability of any person to stand up under that level of intoxication. BAC at 0.13 seven hours after last imbibing. That’s … impressive! Even an asshole like you must agree with that.
(2) the rape act was caught on video
First, some definitions. From the Kansas Star article:
Pro-tip: non-consensual sex = rape. That’s pretty non-controversial. Moving on:
Followed by:
Your move, dipshit. Define “not-rape” under the first definition above. Define “not captured on video” against those quotes. Try to argue against the initial statements by police that prosecutions would result. They apparently thought it was sexual assault. Again, this is in the freakin’ article you claim disproves PZ.
(3) Barnett left Daisy unconscious in freezing weather
Freezing weather actually can include temperatures above 32 degrees Fahrenheit, but we’ll leave that for another day, because we can all agree that 30 degrees < 32 degrees = the freezing temperature of water = freezing weather.
I refer you also to the BAC level of the victim here. Do you really think the average 14-year old would not be unconscious after that much consumption of alcohol? Seven hours later with a BAC of 0.13! Is your argument really based on “if she could tolerate alcohol better, she wouldn’t have been raped”? Seriously?!
(4) Barnett “confessed to all of the above.”
Look, seriously, do I need to quote this again? Apparently so:
So there it all is. Every piece you dispute is in the article you claim doesn’t show it. Your best argument is that a 14-year old should have known how to handle her liquor better, as far as I can tell.
I’d ask for an apology and retraction, but I sincerely doubt you’re capable of offering such.
Asshole.
Let’s not forget that UCM is a public university that receives money from the government to function. They are bound under the law to accept any student meeting the criteria for admissions and cannot discriminate based on an alleged crime. The university’s hands are tied until Barnett is convicted of a crime. It’s an unfortunate truth, but please do not harass the faculty and staff at UCM for something that is completely out of their control. They do not deserve your ire, they are innocent people in this matter.
Save your disgust for Barnett instead, and pressure the prosecuting attorney to reopen the case so this monster can face justice.
Rexlittle, at this point in time, it may be helpful and informative to interrogate yourself and any possible subconscious biases you have as to why you are resistant to the idea that this is an example of rape culture in action.
What I’m resistant to is the idea that rape culture was 100% responsible, that Barnett’s status as a popular jock and the grandson of a state legislator had nothing to do with the charges being dropped.
Now, if you want to say that rape culture is what led Barnett to commit the crime, I won’t argue with that.
If this case doesn’t qualify, what does?
One where the rapist is neither a popular jock nor related to someone with political pull, the evidence against him is as strong as in this case, and he still gets off without facing charges. I’d be astonished if no such cases exist.
Uhm, how is this not *also* part of rape culture, *as well as* jock worship and RWA worship?
I’ve read all the messages in this thread, and one thing that hasn’t been discussed yet is the role of Anonymous in all of this.
At first, I was thinking, Wonderful! Noble hackers ride in to right wrongs and create justice!
But then I thought about it a little more. Even if they do things that are downright illegal (which I don’t believe is their style), what exactly do people expect them to do here?
Put a virus on the rapist’s computer and delete his term papers? Kick him off the internet? Send him spam? What?
I’m just having a hard time imagining anything that could be even vaguely proportionate.
Caleb Mathews #190
*raised eyebrow*
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/02/25/1636481/north-carolina-rape-expel/
http://jezebel.com/5986693/college-rape-survivor-faces-potential-expulsion-for-intimidating-her-rapist
http://www.publicintegrity.org/2010/02/24/4360/lack-consequences-sexual-assault-0
But do go on about how universities are helpless to sanction students or do anything about known rapists in their systems. Why pack that magnitude of absolute wrongness into only one post.
With Anonymous it’s damn tricky. They could just publicize this to a much larger audience who normally wouldn’t take note, keep it in the public eye and refuse to allow the public to forget it and have it swept under the rug. That’s what I’m hoping for. Or they could do something damaging.
rexlittle, I’m surprised by your objection to qualifying this case as an example of rape culture. Rape culture is 100% compatible with drooling worship of bullies (hint: supporters of this culture actually believe it’s meaningful to refer to them as “alpha males”). The bigger the bully (whiter, richer, more powerful) the more impossible it is for them to commit rape, dontcher know.
They can make his searchability crap, so that every employer who does a google search on him finds “rapist who got away with it” as the main result. They can make sure that anywhere he is on the internet, he finds people who will call him out on what he did. No, they probably can’t sway the “justice” system in that town, but they can apply a full helping of the kind of social shunning that needs to happen to guys who think they can just do this with no repercussions, and can make him an example to other guys who think they can too.
rexlittle @ 191:
This is a personal anecdote, so feel free to dismiss it with a wave of your magic denial hand.
TW FOR RAPE
When I was in high school, the younger sister of a friend of mine was raped. Witnesses saw her strong-armed off of the midway at a carnival. There was skin from her rapist under her fingernails. She was taken to the hospital that afternoon and there was semen in her vagina and her hymen had been broken very recently.
The police investigated. The police found the man (early 20s, no real political or social connections of note). They arrested him. The DA decided to press charges. It went to trial. During the trial, the defense attorney tried to introduce the clothing she was wearing at the time of the incident — my memory is a little unclear, but she was either wearing short-shorts and a halter top or a bathing suit (maybe both?) — and the judge allowed it. The jury took just a few minutes to find the defendent not guilty. Apparently, the way she was dressed was too provocative and the man was not to blame for raping a 12- or 13-year old girl.
And no, that is not the only case you will find in which a rape was dismissed at some level.
A friend of my wife was raped up in New Hampshire after leaving a bar. The cab never came so she accepted a ride from a man she barely knew and was raped. She reported the rape and all the police did was blame her and never investigated. Again, not a jock or member of the social elite — a mill hand.
These are just two examples from my life. But, again, feel free to dismiss these as not indicative of the existence of rape culture.
rexlittle @191
What is even the point of this?
1) Because other kinds of priviledge are also involved does not make it any less rape culture
2) what the shti is the point? tell me. Why are you so adamant about this mental masturbation on splitting hairs of rape/entitlement culture?
Rex Little:
There is such a thing as a distinction between sufficient causes and necessary causes. But more over, there’s a pair of concepts called
intersectionality
and
confluence
that might be of some use to you. Why assume that the extent to which jock worship is involved is an extent to which rape culture is exonerated? Don’t you think the assumption that jock-heroes can get consenting sex any time they want **interacts** with a rape culture, or that the constant demonization of rapists makes it hard to see an action as rape if performed by someone we lionize?
Why is this something other than rape culture rather than rape culture finding particular expression where it flows into jock culture?
Those who hold jock privilege and/or political pull routinely get away with many types of offense, not just rape. That’s why I consider those factors as being separate and distinct from rape culture. If the rest of you use a definition of rape culture which lumps those in, we’re just quibbling over semantics and wasting each other’s time.
Don’t you think the assumption that jock-heroes can get consenting sex any time they want **interacts** with a rape culture?
Absolutely. But I don’t see that assumption being what got Barnett off the hook. Even if one believes that the girl consented, and ignores her drunken condition or blames her for it, the fact remains that she was too young for consent to be legally relevant. That makes it look like his popularity and pull were what saved him, and would have done so no matter what crime he committed (short of murder, perhaps).
@Ogvorbis:
Why would I dismiss your examples? They perfectly fit the description I gave at #191. As I said there, I’m quite certain such cases do exist, and you confirmed that.
rexlittle
Perhaps its because you see jock culture and rape culture as separate things. They are in fact pretty damn indistinguishable from each other, as is frat culture and military culture.
I must have neglected to hit submit on a post yesterday, or it got eaten.
Iris, Caine, Cerberus, Crip Dyke, Pteryxx
Ya’ll are just fabulous, smart, eloquent peoples. I love thefaultline. It’s perfect. I can see a video similar to the “remember ladies, it’s your fault” one that was featured here recently (but including men), followed by a blurb for the faultline.
I want to give a special thanks to Cerberus for the great post on how things are changing.
It’s easy to lose sight of that when the news of the day is as awful as this OP.
@rexlittle
The one quibbling about whether popularity or rape culture was responsible for this injustice is you. Everyone else is pointing out both can be factors, while you try to lecture us on intersectionality as if we didn’t know what it was. Stop with this bullshit before people get angry at you.
Mind you, I really don’t see the point. Men who aren’t jocks or popular routinely get away with rape in similar situations. Pegging this case as a result of rape culture is trivial, because it’s so similar to many others. And in the end, jock entitlement and rape culture feed off of each other.
rexlittle — If a video was made of this little shit robbing a convenience store, he might get away with it, but nobody would be saying that the fault for the missing inventory and broken glass was on the store owner. Nobody would say that the video showed this guy tounging all the food and not actually stealing it so what’s the big deal dood? Nobody would have handed a giant shot glass to the owner at the counter and then used that as some sort of plausible deniability or a claim that actually the owner wanted them to break the windows, throw the slurpee machine across the room, steal all the beer, and leave the owner for dead in the parking lot.
And rape culture relies very heavily on the idea that the privileged are entitled to violate the safety and autonomy and peace of mind of the unpriveleged, and to do so without consequence. Note that the justice system and social interactions of our society look very different to, for example, a poor black man accused of raping a white woman, as opposed to a popular, wealthy white man accused of raping, well, anyone he wants. Privilege and entitlement are huge parts of rape culture. There is no reason to think that a white wealthy jock from a prominent family, privileged in so many ways, and living a life of entitlement to any and all he touches, would somehow be anything other than the luckiest beneficiary of rape culture. He is, and it is seen over and over again.
Irisvanderpluyme-
I would love to contribute to the project when it gets running and I’m willing to do video (I’ve done video for similar projects in the past). And YAY for putting something together like that. You are badass!
Rex little @191
You fuckers are so goddamn repetitive. You get that, right? How every one of you “special snowflakes” who “isn’t at all committing rape denialism” goes through the same damn motions and are clearly so invested in this rancid status quo that you’ll argue anything to disappear any rape victim no matter how open and shut?
But whatever, let’s respond to one particular floater in the punch bowl. The same bit that Ogvorbis smacked down @198
First off, why? What does that do? What importance does that bear on situations?
Second off, there is literally a thread on this site (I’m not going to link it, do your own damn research, it’s not that far back in the past) where dozens upon dozens of people relate their experiences, including many that fit this narrow cross-section of bullshit (which, yes, by the way, we did notice that that was a narrowing existing for no other purpose than hand-waving a certain amount of rape experiences as less real or meaningful than others for no damn good reason.
TRIGGER WARNING for rape culture by police
Third off, my partner’s girlfriend was raped, on the street, during daylight, by a homeless man. By every possible social factor you could consider, the perpetrator had nearly zero social regard or power and it would have been a fantastic excuse for the sort of homeless harassment campaign the police were already pulling in the area.
But for reasons so very unrelated to the rape culture, the police were mostly invested in getting her to drop the case and in relating how little they intended to investigate it if she “insisted on being foolish” (exact quote) by attempting to report what had happened. Additionally, most of the investigation consisted of her being accused of having sex with whatever homeless man wanders her way and how is he supposed to know that she isn’t his lover if she has seen him around town in the past. I mean, single other incident of seeing him must have meant she was flirting with him, right? There was no sketch artist present. They didn’t even bother to take more than a rudimentary physical description and when she was trying to describe the physical characteristics she could remember, the officer kept interrupting her to accuse her of making it up some more.
So, fuck you and your rape apologetics.
Oh and fourth about this little “game” of yours, rape culture and jock worship culture are one and the same.
TRIGGER WARNING rape culture and toxic masculinity
Here, a little lesson for you. See, the worship of a toxic masculinity, this idea that masculinity is something won by being more “masculine” where masculine is defined by resistance to what is temporally considered feminine and usually by violence and aggression towards those classified as “weaker” or “less than” you. Where a strong hit against a “shitty” team is cheered just as strongly as a “strong hit” against that weedy fag kid who was just trying to walk past the jocks while oozing his “queerdo rays”. Where being a man is defined by how many women you “lay”. Where “lay” is defined as acquiring sex from the sex vending machines known as women. Where women are seen as either passive receptacles to this action or worse, as active antagonists that one must “defeat” to acquire sex, either by “intelligence” and deception or like in the football game, brute force. Where it doesn’t matter how you get it, a “lay” is a “lay”, just like a “win” is a “win” and counts just as much on the “scoresheet”. Where these cultures blend together and use the same languages. Where this is what is taught to every person read culturally as a boy when they are growing up. Where women are trained complex rituals for trying to fight off this shit and maneuver around it without bringing up the reality of the situation for fear of making the truest believers angry. Where hierarchies are king and it’s important to always be emphasizing your hierarchy over women and queers by punching down at them, less anyone think you’re “soft” and thus a target for this same rape culture. Where rape is encouraged as a way of preventing yourself from being targeted. Where the perpetrators receive the same halo effect that the politically or financially powerful or as those who are popular in some respect. Where these halos stack upon each other.
Why do you think so many powerful people with connections who could easily get consensual sex if they want, turn to rape? Because they can get away with it. Because it’s about the power. Because abusing the lesser is underwritten in every rancid thread of this broken and battered culture. Because people like you will come out of the woodwork to hand-wave it away or write it off as seemingly less worthy of regard if the attacker has additional power or privilege outside of the automatic protection we give to literally anyone who rapes.
So once, again, may I say, fuck you, you rape apologizing fucknozzle. May your empathy one day, break out of its iron prison and strangle you to death with your own “superskeptic” bullshit pose.
Oh and one more thing:
Fifth, the same reason it is so important that you are a superskeptic, so much more enlightened than these lowly feminists and these emotional girls, even on such a big issue and how much you think that makes you “better”, “smarter”, more manly than you would be otherwise?
Same fucking toxic masculinity as the jock culture.
You are worshiping your fucking abusers you Stockholm Syndrome mother fucker.
Looks like Barnett might not be off the hook just yet. A Lt. Gov. trumps a state rep.
Is it wrong for me to want to see Matthew Barnett face a jury, be sent to prison, and “get the D” for himself?
@208: Yes, Jon Bowers, that’s wrong.
Rape is not an appropriate punishment. People with empathy don’t wish it on other people. The answer to “what do we do about rape?” is never “MORE RAPE NEEDED!”
It is, in fact, another aspect of rape culture: the idea that rape happens (or should happen, but this nuance is often unexpressed and unnoticed) to people who deserve it.
I’ve been on the nasty end of it a number of times, and I will never wish it on any creature.
So no. If Mr. Barrett ends up in jail, I hope that his time of imprisonment is rape-free, both of him and by him. I hope it’s lengthy, and that it’s unpleasant to him to be so restricted, and that he takes this as a lesson that rape wasn’t worth it, and ends up teaching other men what a stupid idea it is and was.
But no, there is no ‘good’ rape.
Jon Bowers #208
Yes.
Rape doesn’t fix rape.
@ Jon Bowers
If you wish to imply that rape should be condoned as a form of punishment, then yes, you are very wrong. There is no circumstance in which rape can be condoned.
Making rape yet another tool in the state’s repressive apparatus is utterly beyond the pale.
CaitieCat is better at this than I am.
theophontes, too.
@212: LOL! Too much. In fact, when I saw your perfectly concise answer, I was thinking, “wow, chigau dewa nai!*” :D
* “You got that right!”, for the nihongo-challenged. chigau’s name means “wrong” or “different”. :)
@ Jon Bowers
Take on board what CaitieCat says:
If you want to make a contribution to society, don’t advocate rape as a solution. Don’t accept comments that the victim (any victim, including men in jail) is in any way at fault. As a man¹ you are in all the better position to fight rape culture, by calling out people (particularly men and boys) who bring up any such suggestions. Even if they “meant good” by saying these things.
.
¹ I realise I may be a bit presumptuous here, correct me if I am wrong. My comment can be addressed to men in general.
Awww, thanks chigau.
(I always worry I cannot articulate my ideas very well.)
CaitieCat
いいえ、まだ上手ではない。
Thank you, though.
theophontes
You do articulate pretty good.
Whatever you think of it, it’s quite likely that Barnett would indeed “get the D” if he were sent up. I’ve been told by someone who’s been inside that rapists are near the bottom of the prison food chain, just above child molesters. And considering the age of his victim, Barnett’s fellow inmates might just put him in the latter category.
@ rexlittle
This is a problem in quite a few countries. Our prison systems are extremely messed up and a source of contagion for rape culture and many other social ills. I often wonder if the deleterious cultural and social side effects of incarceration are not worse than the crimes themselves. Or, they perpetuate and generate societal dysfunctions and thereby become drivers of ever new waves of criminality. It is a microcosm of society at large (and particularly its iniquities) and its impacts are, to my mind, far broader and more intense than are generally recognised.
This subject comes up from time to time on Pharyngula and the discussion is well worth following.
The public has since gone on to express chagrin as to the wisdom of Robert Rice in forfeiting charges against Matthew Barnett after the prosecutor inexplicably went on to insist he did not feel compelled to proceed with rape charges because he believed Barnett to be telling the truth when he told that ensuing sex between him and Daisy Coleman was consensual.
This despite the fact that Coleman was later found in a comatose state, with the onset of frost bite, passed out on her family front lawn where Barnett had dumped her at 2 am with a blood alcohol level of .13. Hardly the most engaging tell tale signs that the child had the wherewithal to consent to sex.
http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2013/10/matthew-barnett-officially-americas-hated-man/
Rexlittle @219:
Do you still deny that Rape Culture lies at the heart of the Maryville case? As Crip Dyke and Tethys mentioned above, various social ills converged in this case. The sense of entitlement…of freedom… of power held by Barnett and others like him exists at the heart of jock culture. That jock culture exists in a society that steadfastly, stubbornly, destructively refuses to discuss sexual ethics.
Issues* of:
Consent (what is it? How is it obtained? Can it be withdrawn? Why is it necessary?)
Bodily Autonomy (what is it? Who has it? Why do people have it? Is there any justification for robbing anyone of it?)
Sexism and Misogyny (why are women the majority of rape victims? Why does society at large place such high value on the appearance of women? Why are women treated as if their contributions in the social, political or economic arenas are inferior to those of men?)
are topics that absolutely need to be discussed, understood, and reinforced-from as young an age as possible. That has yet to happen on a sufficient scale. As a result, when a teen who has been swimming in sexism their entire life becomes immersed in jock culture, too often they carry with them little to no understanding of consent and bodily autonomy. The sexism that permeates our culture often results in a teen who places less value on women than on men.
That is Rape Culture. And Jock Culture.
Both can exist on their own, but as we saw in the case of Penn State, Steubenville, and Maryville, when Jock Culture intersects with Rape Culture, the outcome is that much more horrifying.
Alternatively, try this:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bobcook/2013/03/17/lesson-from-steubenville-rape-trial-how-jock-culture-morphs-into-rape-culture/
*this was not meant to be comprehensive
Not only is rape never an appropriate punishment, just all on its own demerits, to me the prescription of it as a punishment smacks nastily of vestiges of the old religiously promulgated-and-reinforced “eye for an eye” approach to Crime and Punishment.
In consideration of punishing rape with more rape in specific, if the first rape in the chain is an act not against the person raped, but against their spouse (I’m thinking in particular of “I’ll show him; I’ll just rape his wife/daughter!”), it’s part of the women-as-property meme and raping the first offenders womenfolk in revenge is again denying them independent personhood.
–
Do you still deny that Rape Culture lies at the heart of the Maryville case?
I never denied it. I opined that other factors were involved in addition to rape culture: jock privilege and political pull. As you put it, jock culture intersected with rape culture.
And to be clear, I was talking about the decision not to press charges. Barnett’s actions themselves, during and after the event, were 100% undiluted Rape Culture.
Speaking of the decision not to press charges. . .
I’ve come around to the idea that it has turned out to be the right move. Both for Daisy’s best interests, and for getting retribution against Barnett. (I say “retribution”, not “justice”, because I don’t know what true justice would be for a rape.)
First, let’s look at the issues that would be involved if Barnett were to stand trial:
Age – My first thought, as expressed in post 201, was that Barnett could be charged with statutory rape, thus avoiding the need to deal with the messier issues. But I looked up the Missouri law, and while the age of consent is 17, it drops to 14 if the other party is under 21.
Barnett’s age at the time of the rape also means he’d be tried as a juvenile. More on that below.
Alcohol – The prosecution’s case would necessarily hinge on its ability to prove that Daisy was too drunk to give consent to sex. Unless there was some really convincing evidence on video, I’m sure that a good defense lawyer could create reasonable doubt on this point. I’m even surer that Barnett would have the best lawyer Grandpa could call in a favor and get.
If drunkenness couldn’t be established, the trial would come down to the issue of consent. I don’t need to tell anyone here what the victim gets put through in such a case.
So, odds are that Barnett would walk out of a trial unscathed, and Daisy would get some more scars on her psyche.
And what if Barnett were convicted? As I mentioned above, he’d be tried as a juvenile. I know squat about the Missouri juvie system, but I’ll speculate that he’d get a slap-on-the-wrist sentence, which would be expunged from his record on completion.
Here’s the big thing: none of us would ever know. How many rape trials took place in the US today? How many of them were reported on TV, or an Internet home page? If Barnett had stood trial, I doubt the news would have made it as far as St. Louis. A year or two from now, it would be like the whole thing never happened–for everyone except the Colemans.
As it is, everyone with an Internet connection knows Barnett’s name and face. (I don’t know if he’s been on TV news; I rarely watch it.) I read one report whose headline called him “America’s most hated man.” A commenter to that report said, in effect, that anyone who could beat up Barnett and doesn’t do so is condoning rape. Whether or not you agree with that, a few who do will suffice to make Barnett’s life miserable anywhere outside his little hometown cocoon. A year or two from now, the only way he’ll have any chance at a normal life is if he’s cut his beard, dyed his hair, changed his name and moved to a school out of state.
As for Daisy, thousands of people are reaching out to her with support. Nothing can make up for what she suffered, but this has to be a damn sight more theraputic than seeing Barnett tried and acquitted would be.
rexlittle:
That is NOT a good thing. Rapists get to walk free all the fucking time. Not being on trial? Not facing the possibility of jail time or ANY punishment for his actions has the effect of giving social approval of rape. That message is sent out every time rapists walk with no punishment.
Your assertion that Barnett’s life will be difficult needs serious citations. You have provided no support for this ridiculous belief. Maybe you are projecting here, but society does not punish rapists in the way you think. Hell, he is getting support. He has been since he was accused. His family, his friends, his hometown–they supported him and ostracized Daisy and her family.
What fucking world do you live in where you think rapists suffer consequences for their actions?
God, this shit you write gets more and more offensive.
Please, stop typing until you understand Rape Culture better.
You may say you are no apologist, but you play one really well.
rexlittle
To add one more point, if he’s not in jail, he’s free to rape again. How is that in any way therapeutic to anyone?
Prat.
rexlittle: you arrogant damn fool.
conveniently forgetting that the whole reason Daisy went public in the first place was to OBJECT TO THE CHARGES BEING DROPPED. She, and her mother, and the other girl (you remember another girl was victimized, right?) and her family, after two years of harassment and ostracizing and being run out of town and suicide attempts, didn’t come forward to ask for therapy. They asked for justice. And not just for themselves:
http://jezebel.com/maryville-mom-says-more-girls-came-forward-with-tales-o-1445537112
But it’s telling that you think when women are calling for justice, what they really needed was a week or two of internet fuzzies and that should be the end of it.
I don’t say “fuck off” very often, but you really deserve it for that one.
Rexlittle, you seriously sound like a rapist yourself trying like hell to excuse your own depraved behavior.
How to you not sound like a rapist? Stop apologizing/minimizing for the rape, and thoroughly condemn the admitted rapist and their methods. Can you do that?
Rexlittle
I’m too tired right now to come up with elaborate expostulations or insults, so I’ll just tell you that you’re an astonishing asshole, and reading your verbal vomitus makes my skin crawl.
Wow, Nerd. Rexlittle is doing a lot of things I would never do, but he doesn’t sound like a rapist to me.
Many, many people who don’t rape wish for rapists and certain other “bad” persons to be raped in prison. It’s so horrifyingly common that we can’t use that to say someone “sounds like a rapist”.
As for picking nits on jock culture v rape culture, Rexlittle’s #224 lets me believe that he just expresses things and categorizes things differently than I would.
Again, I’m so against the “maybe this is a good thing” and some of the other things rexlittle’s said, but rexlittle just doesn’t seem like a rapist to me – I mean, not from what I’m hearing on this thread and that’s all we can go on.
Is there something that I’ve missed?
Okay, I just realized as I was submitting:
needs clarification. First – argh. I shouldn’t have assumed gender.
Second, RL expresses things and categorizes things differently than I would when speaking about interactions of social forces. I don’t believe that because X% *is* jock culture that 100-X% is the max contribution of rape culture, which seems to be Rexlittle’s thinking.
But I don’t **just** think RL expresses things differently. I also think very differently about a number of other things, including the role of prison and juvenile justice and what makes a “good” outcome in these situations. But on rape culture’s role, there’s not a huge amount of difference in rexlittle’s position and the mainstream Horde. RL’s using a zero sum, “If it’s X it’s not Y,” formula that doesn’t accord with how I think about interacting causes, but – if I understand rexlittle correctly – RL is not engaging in minimizing Barnett’s culpability.
I don’t know. Sounds like a rapist just seems like a big overreaction from where I sit, but maybe I’m not reading carefully/remembering everything. I’m tired as heck with 3 papers finished in the last 2 days. I really need some sleep.
Please, Nerd, point out to me where I’m wrong if I am.
225
rexlittle
Dumbass, read the motherfucking thread. Her blood alcholol level HAS been estiblished.
Better than fucking nothing, especially since Daisy wants to press charges. It might also expose other issues, like getting an asshole judge off the bench when he lectures young rapists about social media at their sentencing instead of, you know, telling them not to rape.
Stubenville.
FUCK YOU. How the fuck do you know that? You don’t. How dare you presume that a trail and/or conviction wouldn’t help her. Or wouldn’t help her enough. Godfucking damn, they want the charges pressed! That’s the whole point! Going to court is rough on victims but there are plenty of victims that are glad they did and it helped their recovery. It’s her choice, don’t dismiss it because some people on the Internet support her. There’s a fuckload of hate coming her way from people on the Internet as well.
This asshole is free to rape, will get support in real life even if he is convicted and you’re wringing your hands about the poor mistreated rapists? His life is going to be just fucking fine, rape culture has the bro’s back.
I’m SO fucking sick and tired of privileged fuckfaces assuming they know what’s best for the victims, dismissing what the victim wants, and treating them like they are too stupid to make their own decisions. Remind you of anything? Back the fuck up and check yourself, you are supporting rape culture right there.
@rexlittle
If.
There’s two problems with this. One is that he won’t go to prison, making the whole point moot. Another is that relying on prison inmate vigilantism for redress can backfire spectacularly. Do you think prison inmates are immune to the same toxic culture that led to this crime mappening in the first place? One big problem with rape culture is that, as much as people may despise rapists outwardly, in practice they only accept a very narrow subset of rapes as “true” rape, defining the concept out of existence.
Her blood alcholol level HAS been estiblished.
Her blood alcohol level the next day has been established. Her level at the time of the rape, and how much she may have drunk afterwards, has not. (That’s how I read it anyway; please point me to any information which would correct me on this.) I think Grandpa could manage to find a defense lawyer capable of pointing this out.
That message is sent out every time rapists walk with no punishment.
Do you think a trial would have ended with Barnett being punished? I explained in some detail (I can supply more if you want) why I think it wouldn’t; what part of that do you disagree with?
And if merely putting him on trial sends the right message, that can still be done; important people are trying to make it happen. (See my link at post 207.) So much the better if they succeed–as long as Daisy isn’t subjected to the kind of slut-shaming tactics that defense lawyers routinely use against rape victims.
Your assertion that Barnett’s life will be difficult needs serious citations.
Check the link in my post 225. The comment I cited is near the bottom. Below that, there’s a link to a report about Barnett’s mother whining that her son is “the real victim.” She wouldn’t be doing that unless he was already catching serious flak.
As to whether the commenter’s wish comes true, we’ll just have to wait and see. If Barnett transfers out of UCM, it will suggest that he, at least, fears that it will.
What fucking world do you live in where you think rapists suffer consequences for their actions?
I know that some of them go to prison. I know that in prison, the other inmates treat them with hostility and contempt, more so than almost any other type of offender. I find it hard to believe that the only people with that attitude toward rapists are criminals.
you think when women are calling for justice, what they really needed was a week or two of internet fuzzies and that should be the end of it.
False dichotomy. If the charges against Barnett had not been dropped and he’d stood trial, there wouldn’t be any “internet fuzzies”, but I don’t believe there’d have been justice either. I’ve explained why not. Because the charges were dropped, Daisy and her mother called for justice, with results we’ve all seen(*). If they also end up with a chance at justice, it will be with the political pressure on their side instead of against them.
It’s not just fuzzies, either; people are making cash donations. (According to a report I read, Daisy is asking that those go to a fund for animal abuse prevention.)
Let me be clear: I’m NOT saying the prosecutor was right to drop the charges. I’m saying that the unintended (by him) consequences of his action are good.
* – All the internet publicity I’ve seen has been strongly pro-Daisy and anti-Barnett, except for statements by his mother and his lawyer. There may be a manosphere site somewhere trying to paint him as a witchhunt victim or something, but I checked a couple of them and found nothing about the case at all.
Crip Dyke:
I agree with you wrt Nerd’s comment.
Rexlittle comes across as a Rape Apologizing Douchecannon, but I see nothing to indicate ze is a rapist.
OTOH, I think maybe you are being a bit generous to rexlittle. I think ze has a poor understanding of Rape Culture. Their comment @167 indicated doubt as to how much a role Rape Culture played in this case, despite the preceding 166 comments. To me, that reads as ignorance wrt to the factors and influences at play here. Yes, jock culture played a role here, but #167 reads like ze is diminishing the extent of Rape Culture.
I also wonder how much rexlittle understands about intersectionality.
The point at which rexlittle loses any benefit of the doubt (especially given the various links provided in this thread), is their #225. Between thinking that NOT going to trial is better for Daisy and that Barnett will suffer bc of being labelled a rapist, rexlittle demonstrates complete ignorance of how society at large treats rape victims and rapists. That comment betrays a severe ignorance of how much the justice system screws over rape victims.
No, I do not think the difference between rexlittle and the Horde is a small one. The difference is vast. From what you say, I am inclined to think that if you reread rexlittle’s comments after you get some rest, you will see those comments differently.
Rexlittle:
I read that link @225. That is not a citation.
There is no proof that Barnett will face any punishment or repercussions for his actions. That was 2 commenters expressing their opinions. If you want to support your opinion that life will be so difficult for Barnett, you ought to get to work. You will need to find a staggering number of cases where non convicted rapists face difficulties in life bc they raped someone.
Since you are not likely to even try searching, nor are you willing to educate yourself on Rape Culture, please stop opining on something you are so clearly ignorant of.
Yeah, I screwed up on the small difference thing. It was really about a “small difference” in one area – the area of how to understand rape culture. It’s my tiredness that made me write as if there were no other big differences.
#225 is bad I agree.
Oh boy do I need that sleep.
On the plus side, with 3 papers due today, I have turned in 2 on time and one is due electronically by midnight…and it just needs a proofread. Soon I should be able to sleep the sleep of the just.
vaiyt (#234)
In fact, special pleading is built into the notion of retributive rape because otherwise prisoners raping in retribution would necessarily earn themselves the same treatment.
Let’s see… a small percentage of the 5% that do get to the legal system. What are the odds?
Rexlittle:
I forgot to mention…are you a lawyer?
You seem convinced Barnett would not be convicted.
I suspect you are not. So your confidence is based on what? Uncertainty about her blood alcohol level? Issues of consent?
Go back and reread the article PZ linked to.
Daisy and her friend started drinking before 12 am.
The rape occured sometime between 1 am and 2 am. 7
Daisy stated she could not remember anything after the second drink she was given.
Her friend said she was barely coherent, could not walk and was crying.
Daisy and her friend were dropped off @ 2 am. So we know she did not consume any further alcohol.
At 9 am her blood alcohol level was .13. That is above the legal limit.
How much do you know about the effects of alcohol on the body?
I’m a bartender. Part of being responsible has required me to learn more than the average person (though I am no expert). Did you know that on average, it takes roughly one hour per alcoholic beverage (of standard size~12 bottle of beer, 1.25 oz standard spirit or 5 oz glass of wine) to work its way out of your system?
Now look back on Daisy’s situation. She had .13 BAC 7 hours after she was dropped off. She was still well past legally intoxicated.
Now reread your comments about her intoxication. Since she was still drunk at 9 am, and had not consumed any alcohol since 2 am and the rape happened sometime between 1 am and 2 am, what does that suggest about her level of intoxication and her ability to give consent?
rexlittle: O RLY. Now the true colors come out.
So, either you don’t know how metabolism works (or forensics, for that matter), or you think it’s likely she had happy sober consensual sex (with bruising and vaginal tearing, as verified by rape exam) and then drank into oblivion before getting dumped in front of her house on a freezing night.
BAC goes up, BAC goes down, who can explain that? Better get a real-time monitor implanted, ladies. +3 rape apologist points.
…and that’s why you’ve talked repeatedly about rapists getting raped in prison and the likelihood of it happening to this guy, after being told that’s not helpful and has no place in this conversation. Keep your fantasizing about who deserves to be raped to yourself. +1 rape apologist point.
Premature name-a-fallacy syndrome. You’re the one who said, in 225,
You think Daisy and Paige and their mothers, who are calling for a trial so they can participate in it, don’t know the odds of getting a conviction? That they don’t know how rape victims get smeared and dismissed on the stand after living it for two years in their daily lives? They aren’t in it for the therapy value, so you’re focusing on an irrelevant factor. A condescending one, no less, while ignoring the stated goals of the people you’re pretending to be concerned about. Throwing book-logic words around won’t camouflage you here. +2 rape apology points.
*snrk* haven’t been reading your own comments, I see. Besides, there’s plenty of drunk-slut-shaming and ‘gets what’s coming to her’ in the comments on just about every news article; and the news coverage itself reads pretty neutral: statements from both sides, several giving priority to the prosecutor’s accusations over the families’ statements to CNN, and lots of “had sex with” instead of the R-word. I’m sure the mere fact of media attention and roughly balanced coverage LOOKS “strongly pro-Daisy” to you. +1 rape apologist point.
And having even this degree of fairness in the news coverage is almost unprecedented, and the result of years of hard-fought consciousness-raising. Steubenville? Retaeh Parsons? Amanda Todd? All those news stories had surrounding conversations about drunk sluts who can’t be trusted. Even the Sandusky and Savile cases had voices claiming the victims just lied to get attention. That’s not going over so well this time around, is it?
http://www.thenation.com/blog/176710/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-rape
So, I read you as having at least 7 rape apologist points since your #225. Bonus question for consideration: will you still be this much of a rape apologist tomorrow morning?
My paranthetical above should read (of standard size~12 oz btl of beer…)
Here is some information on blood-alcohol content.
So, either you don’t know how metabolism works (or forensics, for that matter), or you think it’s likely she had happy sober consensual sex (with bruising and vaginal tearing, as verified by rape exam) and then drank into oblivion before getting dumped in front of her house on a freezing night.
The first one. I’m firmly convinced that she was way too drunk to know what was going on; my belief was that there was enough leeway in the timeline that a lawyer could put over a reasonable-doubt argument. Based on Tony’s post @241, I stand corrected on that point. Glad of it too; it means that if the charges are reinstated, there’s a better chance of conviction, and that the issue of consent can be kept out of the courtroom entirely. Contrary to what some of you seem to think, I’d love to see Barnett convicted; it’s just that I like it even better if he’s convicted AND his name and face are plastered all over the Internet.
I read that link @225. That is not a citation.
There is no proof that Barnett will face any punishment or repercussions for his actions. That was 2 commenters expressing their opinions.
Those commenters’ opinions aren’t proof, but they are an indication. Isn’t it likely that if one commenter wants Barnett beaten up, a few non-commenters do too? Of the 12000 students at UCM, what percentage would have to have it in for him to cause him serious trouble?
You can’t compare Barnett’s prospects to non-convicted rapists who haven’t their names, faces and deeds broadcast to the entire country. Look at it this way: if 100 people know what you did, 99% of them are OK with it and 1% hate your guts, you can deal with it. Apply those percentages to 100 million, and you’ve got a serious problem.
And don’t forget what his mother’s saying. Isn’t that pretty strong evidence that he’s already feeling the hate?
please stop opining on something you are so clearly ignorant of.
Tony, I’ll stop commenting when I have nothing I want to say, not because you ask me to. If you don’t want me to respond to you, don’t make observations which are on point. Just fill your comments with non sequiturs, invective and spittle, and I’ll ignore them. There are plenty of examples on this thread you can crib from.
For rexlittle:
http://www.salon.com/2013/10/18/fox_news_guest_on_maryville_rape_case_i_am_not_saying_she_deserved_to_be_raped_but/
—
Daisy Coleman has written a piece posted this morning on XOJane, Via Salon:
http://www.salon.com/2013/10/18/alleged_maryville_rape_victim_i_just_hope_more_men_will_take_a_lesson_from_my_brothers/
http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/daisy-coleman-maryville-rape
Rexlittle:
I had hoped you would stop commenting until you read more about Rape Culture and understood better. I am not trying to shut you up, despite your apologetics. I truly think you could benefit from educating yourself more. You are discussing a subject you are not sufficiently informed about. That is readily apparent after reading your bullshit @225, though it was evident well before that. I have refrained from the invectives I normally would have used at this point in the hope that you would see reason. To some extent-Daisy’s BAC specifically-you have amended your uninformed opinions. But you still lack an informed perspective on other issues.
How often do rapists get charged, tried, convicted, and imprisoned?
How does society at large treat rapists?
How does society at large treat victims of rape?
Do rapists face social stigma?
Who is best equipped to determine the needs of victims of rape?
These are a small sample of questions I am convinced you know nothing about, yet you are trying to discuss them. Go take a look at Caine’s link @4. There is a wealth of information available.
If you choose not to, and continue on the path you have been, well, this is likely my last reasonable response to you.
Rex Little, why are you apologizing and trying to explain away rape unless you are also a predator trying like hell to sooth your conscious? That is how you come across. The case should be a slam-dunk case of statutory rape simply based on the age of the victim.
Monitor note:
rexlittle
If you’re able to use italics, then you’re able to use blockquotes.
<blockquote>quoted words</blockquote>
Produces
Also, please add the nym and comment-number of the person you’re replying to.
Daz, thank you. I was going to ask how to produce that effect. Other sites I visit have the blockquote feature, but it ends up looking different than that, so I didn’t make the connection.
Nerd, the case ought to be a simple matter of statutory rape, but it isn’t. Look up the law. Or read the KC Star article PZ linked to, it’s explained there.
The slam-dunk case, assuming the facts quoted by Tony @241 are accurate, is that Daisy was too drunk to give legal consent.
Oh, and another case that should be a gimme is endangerment, which is one of the charges initially filed and then dropped. There doesn’t seem to be any question that he left her outside in freezing weather, lightly clothed at most (one account I read said she was nude) and that she suffered frostbite.