Coming off of SomeGreyBloke’s brutal savaging of Thunderf00t’s logic, now Rebecca Watson shanks him in the kidneys and mocks him cruelly. Trigger warning for sad ex-paragon of anti-creationism being publicly exposed as a moral cretin.
Ouch. I am almost feeling pity for the guy (or is that acute schadenfreude? I always have trouble telling those apart), so I thought I’d follow his lead and dispense some advice: How to avoid having feminists rip you a new one.
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Drop the patronizing tone. I know you’d like to believe you’re smarter than all women, but trust me on this: you aren’t.
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Avoid far-fetched and inappropriate metaphors, like metaphors that rely on characterizing your critics as mindless beasts. They’ll bite.
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Especially avoid metaphors that you use to claim that you understand exactly what a victim went through, and that you know better than they do how to avoid the problem. Especially camping metaphors. You don’t tell the burn victim, “Once, when I was toasting marshmallows around the campfire, it caught fire. I blew it out and it was OK. Did you try blowing yourself out?”
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Don’t get in a battle of wits with people who have a better sense of humor than you do. I hate to break this news to you, but getting a Ph.D. in chemistry means you know more about chemistry than either of your two critics, but they did not confer a degree in comedy on you. Quite the opposite, I’m afraid.
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Your video may have 5,240 upvotes, but it’s about as competently done as some piece of trash by VenomFangX. Do you know what all those upvotes mean? It doesn’t mean you win, or that you must be right. It means you have a lot of assholes following you. That should instill in you a sense of humility.
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This is going to be the hard one to follow: don’t say such stupid stuff that everyone finds it irresistible to pile on.
Basically, follow your own advice to women. Shut up, cower at home, don’t drink, don’t interact with people who might criticize you, look at everyone else in the world as if they are mountain lions or wasps out to get you.
Totally brought it on himself.
If Chunderbunny didn’t want hordes of people to call him an idiot and mock his smugnorance, he should’ve protected himself by not acting like a two-fisted wanker on the internet.
PZ:
:Snort: Some years ago, I ordered several thin silver rings with sayings stamped in them. Many friends ordered at least one as well. A good friend of mine had hers stamped with “Don’t Say Stupid Shit”, and she wore it on her middle finger.
He has a PhD in chemistry? Aww, just like Francis “Don’t Go Chasing Waterfalls” Collins.
It all makes sense now.
Oh yeah what about all the victims of cougar rape!? What about them?
Where do I buy a wasp suit?
PZ, I love this video and your post, but perhaps it needs a real TW, it has quotes from foot and rapists.
Okay, I lost it with the “ran away in a zigzag pattern” quip. This entire video was brilliant.
lol @ the mountain lion joke!
I get sick and tired of people claiming feminists believe that rape cannot be included in a joke. It just needs to be aimed right, like in this video (thankfully patton oswalt came around recently and realized this so I can watch his stuff again).
I’m surprised TF didn’t suggest women wear burkas or a full set of armor.
A comparison between a woman confronting a rapist and him confronting a cougar mother with a cub?
A woman eyed by a rapist as a potential
scorevictim is compared to a wasp?Man alive.
That bastard is fucking nuts.
That he and all his 5240+ idiot followers on YouTube so easily twist the tables – that women are predators who victimize rapists?
*spits*PROJECTILE VOMIT#9 No One
Well, we can’t wear burkas in Thunderf00t’s ideal world because that would mean treating all men as rapists and prevent us from trusting men so we can find true love. But if we trust the wrong men, it’s our fault. Apparently. I’m not clear how we are meant to distinguish between right and wrong men. Presumably, mind-reading is involved.
BTW – if the horde has been so good over the years in confounding silly polls, is there any reason why that force can’t be applied to YouTube commentary? Pardon me for bringing this up, but I don’t know if its been discussed before – is shouting down idiocy in that venue more than simply an impractical matter? I do realize that commenting over there can result in lots of unwanted response in one’s email, but it seems a shame that nothing can be done to slap down a sickeningly popular and growing infection.
Anchor @ 12, something is being done, people are responding, all over the place, just not yootube, because for the most part, it’s a swamp when it comes to comments, and seriously not worth the fucking time. If a yootube commenter wants to argue any point, they can come here, or go to Skepchick, or the Grey Dude’s blog, etc.
Jessie,
Your point is taken. I reversed my position. All men should wear burkas. If it goes wrong the encumbrance with allow for a quick get away on the part of the otherwise helpless damsel. Well, that along with zig zagging.
I’d be willing to wear a burka like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dalek_2010_Redesign.jpg
This is as close to a burka as I have gotten.
Some of us don’t do videos, and find it hypocritical to make comments/votes on something you haven’t seen.
Caine
Isn’t that a bit … conspicuous?
Or is it to get pics of wildlife rolling around laughing?
When I was watching Thunderf00t’s video, I realized that I’ve been in this exact situation before – when I encountered a bear in the woods.
The bear came over to me and opened its bear-laptop and started showing me bad Youtube videos it had made in its spare bear-time.
So I puffed up my jacket to appear larger, and made a few bad analogies, and the bear ran away in fear and disabled comments on its videos.
Chigau:
To humans, yes. To birds, no.
Bwahahahahaha!
MJP:
:falls over laughing:
Anchor – the funny thing is, the whole point of Pharyngulating an online poll was always to demonstrate the pure irrelevancy of internet voting.
Thunderf00t appears to think it means A LOT, how many people down- or up-vote his videos. How many followers he have. He brings it up repeatedly as if it’s a logical rebuttal to his critics.
Given funderfeet’s well-documented opinion of Islam, it wouldn’t surprise me that he’d complain and rail about the sexually repressive tyranny of stuffing Muslim women into burqas while the very same time lecturing Western women on how modestly they should dress to “avoid” rape.
Also, isn’t it kind of sexist to compare women to wasps?
Akira – I think it’s more nonsensical than anything. But yeah, as far as I can tell, Tfoot is saying that wasps have stingers, and everyone knows that, so they avoid wasps and don’t rape them, so… women should get stingers? Metaphorical stingers? Maybe he’s morphing into a gun rights nut, who knows.
Well, most people find wasps to be scary, vicious, and venomous. I’m not at all surprised Tfoot made that comparison.
Hmm…He has a few thousand readers at best. How many hits does PZ get in an average day? High tens of thousands?
Well, yeah, but remember, all of the regulars are PZed’s sock puppets, so that removes, what, 200 of the tens of thousands?
Nonono
t00t was comparing men to wasps.
They have ‘stingers’ and should be avoided.
No One (#9)
I’m not. That would make it too hard to spontaneously chew on a woman’s leg. He’d have to carry some heavy-duty shears or an industrial can opener with him.
Brilliant video. But far too nuanced for Thunderf00t to understand.
I’m just wondering what Thunderf00t’s advice would be if I end up living in the same dorm as a mountain lion.
Whatever happened between T00t and the “mountain lion”, it is close to a certainty that he didn’t scare it away.
SallyStrange:
Have a mountain of meat to throw at it, then run away?
What if the mountain lion is between me and my dorm room? Should I try to make a dash for it? Or just retreat to the library until the mountain lion leaves for a frat party?
SallyStrange:
I know! Make sure to smell like tofu, and always carry a wasp’s nest with you!
Meanwhile this piece of shit is making a go-round on Farcebork.
So…we must simultaneously wear boob-revealing clothes in order to let Teh Menz Ogle Their Way To Better Health!!!, and cover ’em up to avoid being raped, because Teh Menz take any exposed flesh (at all) as Consent To Sex Everyman. While Not Appearing to Be A Victim.
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Caine, as blinds go, I can’t see how that constitutes camoflauge.
At least, not against most backgrounds.
:)
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MJP
*snorterofl*
That was Made Of WIN.
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SallyStrange, you should offer the mountain lion an old fashioned bottle of beer, then flee while he tries to open it. What with the prevalence of twist tops, church keys are in smaller supply.
Plus, of course, the mountain lion will be embarrassed for thumbs.
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Caine (#35)
Mountain lions consider meat throwing to be the body language of serving appetizers. If you hurl meat but actually have no interest in being devoured, you are increasing the chances the mountain lion will misread the signs and eviscerate you as you try to run away.
Cicely:
It works on birds, that’s all I care about.
You are a million times as big as a wasp…. if you weigh about 1000 pounds.
@37 Caine
I was thinking the same thing! Perhaps Sally should post these helpful signs up in her dorm?
http://i.imgur.com/Ebr89CP.jpg
I have been restraining myself but THWT
maybe T00t actually encountered a cougar.
waydude #41
What’s that in metric?
;)
QueQuoi:
:Snortle:
Caine, I looked at your blind and thought “Dalek pajamas!”
I blame chigau.
cicely @ 38: “Plus, of course, the mountain lion will be embarrassed for thumbs.”
Don’t be too sure. If little cats can have thumbs …
Snortle indeed. That is awesome.
Are there polydactyl mountain lions? I mean, I love the concept, which has many potential in-game applications, but I’ve never heard of any.
Of course, taking a cat-by-cat accounting of mountain lion thumbs (or lack thereof) is no occupation for the timid. Especially since nothing is accomplished by scaring ’em off in any of the above-mentioned ways.
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kittehserf#46
*dusts hands*
My work here is done.
cicely @48- I’d love to know if there are polydactyl big cats generally, but the only pics I found in an extensive (1.5 minute) Google search were of *cough* domestic *cough* kitties.
chigau @49 – and well done, too. :)
Am I totally evil for wanting Chunderfool to meet a bethumb’d mountain lion?
I thought the Rebecca Watson video was incredibly awesome. It appears to me that Rebecca gave Thunderstump a bigger mauling, than he ever gave that Venomfang creationist idiot.
Count me as another person who thought Thunderstump was a worthy ally, when it turns out I would rather drink a gallon of gasoline, then piss on a fire, rather than watch another of his videos debunking easy creationist targets.
Indeed. He was the first YouTuber I ever subscribed to. Also the first YouTuber I ever unsubscribed to.
SallyStrange @ 26
Yes, but why that particular insect? Bees have stingers for defense, as do ants. I have heard women described as having “waspish figures” or having wasp-like attitudes. Just seems weird to me.
This is great, PZ!
I don’t know which I like better, the marshmallow analogy or the last paragraph of the post. Either way, thanks for making me laugh.
Caine, yes, I understand. No question that YouTube comment forum on those posts like tfoot’s are swamps. Understood that a great deal is being done on many other sites which very ably engage this and other issues like it.
Sally, yes, of course Pharyngulation has been confined to demonstrate the irrelevancy of polls. You’re right that tfoot thinks it significant to amass lots of up votes. Allow me to regard your thoughts agreeable as they are obvious. ;)
What tfoot thinks doesn’t matter. We all know that already. However, it is likely that a disturbingly large proportion of his up votes comes from impressionable youth: in particular, immature teenage boys, if you will. And that ass is cultivating them to his way of thinking largely unopposed within his forum. Never mind what he might think. He gets to draw in ever more numbers of them because of the way they ‘think’ – that numbers denoting popularity must mean he’s right. Many of us know how they can be: being impressionable they’ll want to belong to that group just because, well, because they’re there.
Unfortunately very few of these youth ‘recruits’ will ever bother to go to other sites in an effort to subject their adopted view for reevaluation.
The problem is that there is a significant likelihood that they will carry this nefarious seed to fruition into adulthood. The result is a growing culture of rape apologists. In effect he extends his devaluation of women into devaluating impressionable young men into thinking its okay to devaluating women. Don’t look now, but he’s raping the goddamned culture…again, for his own personal jollies.
I wasn’t necessarily advocating a campaign of counter comments. I agree that would indeed be a worthless expenditure of time and effort for little return. I was just suggesting – since those voted numbers seem to be so all-fired important to his followers – that swamping just those numbers to reflect a rejection of his views might help disillusion the malleable youth contingent who react in knee-jerk fashion in stupidly following the massed herds. That might not be so impenetrably difficult a thing to attempt for Pharyngulites accustomed to bringing silly polls to their knees. Having had to say so now tips the hand and probably reduces the potential effectiveness of such a response. I was merely suggesting the possibility of expanding that formidable and well-demonstrated potential. There may be other targets that might be addressed besides polls.
Nerd: You’re quite right. I’m quite realize I haven’t seen a great deal. I respectfully submit, however, I probably have a much better grasp of what I’ve seen and where my knowledge is wanting than you do. That it merits a charge of hypocrisy from you makes me want to try even harder to keep up, however much it hurts. I do hope you can agree many of us who aren’t as well equipped nevertheless try to do the best we can with what little we’ve got. 8}
Smugnorance
Best new word of the month
“I’m quite aware I haven’t seen a great deal. I realize that.”
sheesh
I go back now and bury my head under the pillow.
Uh oh…PZ has talked about Thunderfap in two recent posts. Where are all TF’s supporters? Aren’t they supposed to go out and defend him from PZ the big poopyhead?
What Dunderhead doesn’t realise is that if that mountain lion had been truly stalking him… he would NOT have seen it. If she came near him at all, it was because she was trying to protect her cub. Which further destroys the analogy, because now the situation paints HIM as the threat/rapist/kidnapper.
@SallyStrange
You just need to be able to run faster than Dunderfoot.
Clearly you lot are amateurs at this. The real way to stop cougar attacks is to wear a mask behind your head.
I assume it’s because Rapists and Cougars are like weeping angels and cannot move if you can see them.
Cicely
It stops you being human-shaped – which is a pretty important part of camoflauge, even against humans.
RowanVT is correct: a cougar’s preferred way of hunting is to drop out of a tree onto your back and break your spine at the neck, whereas an African lion was observed biting mannequins (posed standing around a vehicle) at the small of the back. It might be smart to wear a cap with a “curtain”to conceal the tempting neck while walking in the woods. Or make a lot of noise.
Rowanvt@59:
You beat me to it. I was thinking the same thing about the mountain lion. If it was truly intending to have a Thunderf00l sandwich, he never would have seen it until it was too late.
So, ThunderingFool was able to not be attacked by a mountain lion was by not playing the victim?
Somehow, I doubt the mountain lion gives a fhying fuck if what she is targeting is playing the victim or not.
It would also seem that she was more interested in protecting her cub.
Bleagh. This is more thought about ThunderingFool than he deserves.
About Tpod being obsessed with the amazing powers of wasps, to which we should all aspire, if we are female and not mountain lions:
Obviously, he learned everything he knows about sociology and psychology from reading comic books.
I think by now it´s safe to say that he also believes he is smarter than every man as well. That, and that he would rather kill himself than admitting that he could be wrong about anything.
Not sure about that, VenomFangX never used metaphors that are even remotely as bad as the one thunderf00t used in his last video and he never included random clips about racism in his videos for no reason whatsoever.
It´s almost painful seeing thunderf00t stooping this low – I used to like the guy.
Defend him from what? Name-calling? Sarcasm? Although I’m sure you’ve all really hurt his fwagiwe feewings, I have a strong suspicion that he’ll live through it. Don’t go giving each other reach-arounds just yet.
…Sorry, are you trying to pretend he doesn’t get huffy about things people write about him on the internet? Did you see the shit he did before getting kicked out?
<3 Rebecca
with every new video tf makes, i find it harder and harder to understand how i could have ever liked his videos in the first place.
Playing the devils advocate, why is it relevant what some study shows rapists say to explain their crimes? If it is just to show that they say the same as thunderfoot, who cares? It would only seem to imply “guilt by assosciation”….
@kittehserf (#50)
Here is your totally useless bit of knowledge for the day:
There is a fossil of a sabretoothed cat that is polydactylous; it (or one like it) was used as the main character in Björn Kurtens book “Dance of the tiger”.
http://www.redorbit.com/education/reference_library/science_1/mammalia/1112524723/homotherium/
If only female wasps have stingers, then isn’t Tf’s wasp analogy even worse?
Assuming that the bear suit of armour (http://www.improbable.com/news/2002/may/troy-new-suit.html) also works against mountain lions, then obviously we silly women should be wearing the bear suit to prevent rape.
It’s going to be uncomfortably warm in the summer and in the tropics. Visibility looks like shit, I don’t think I could drive in it, or have people feel comfortable about me wearing it on public transport. It doesn’t look convenient for going to the bathroom, and formal meetings at work may be a little uncomfortable for others. I have no idea of the cost. But, heck, obviously all a small price to pay so I won’t get raped. Although I suppose I could get mugged for the suit instead. :(
@f43d348k
There are two points to this:
1. Considering that rapists say what they say to mitigate their own feeling of guilt and to justify what they have done, repeating their “arguments” is clearly the move of a rape-apologist.
2. Their “arguments” are obviously not valid – why should it matter if a woman wears a skirt or nothing at all? If someone forces you to do something you don’t want to do threatening you with a knife, would you accept “f43d348k did not really resist” as meaning “he really wanted it, secretely”? You should never put the blame on the victim.
#74: The fact that a rape-apologist would make these arguments does nothing to prove anything about thunderfoot, one way or the other. What Rebecca is doing in the video seems to be “guilt by association”, as in “he says the same as rapist(-apologists) so he must be a rape apologist”. This doesn’t hold at all: Every explanation the rapists gives could hypothetically be perfectly true, without impacting the judgement of whether rape is justified or not.
I agree that the arguments are (obviously) bogus, but thunderfoot never (as far as I could see) make any other point than the (equally obvious) point that women should try to protect themselves. That doesn’t suddenly imply that “rape is OK” or that thunderfoot “blames the victim”.
rowanvt I’m glad someone pointed this out. You *might* know there’s a mountain lion about if you’re hiking with a dog (though it’s likely you only know because the dog never comes back), but if you’re really being stalked you don’t know until too late.
@75 TF is blaming the victim throughout the entire screed so I’m not sure what you’re trying say. Rebecca rightly points out that rapists themselves have used exactly these justifications for the actual rapes they have perpetrated. In other words, blaming the woman for getting raped because she didn’t dress “right”, didn’t fight back “enough” or seemed to “want it”. Which are quite notably the exact things that TF says we need to do in order to not get raped. So if we don’t do it we’re clearly at fault. That is classic victim blaming and rape apology (can’t be the man’s fault, he can’t help himself apparently).
If you really want to understand the takedown instead of whinging about Rebecca’s sarcasm, read SomeGreyBloke’s very thorough discussion that she references.
#76: Where exactly does TF say that it’s your fault that you get raped if you don’t, say, “dress properly”? He simply says (as far as I have seen) that women can protect themselves in various ways – that seems pretty uncontroversial, if a bit trivial, to me?
I did have a go at SomeGreyBloke’s post, but, frankly, he’s rambling – one of his post was named “thunderfoot vs. grammar” fer crying out loud… So, if he has actually dealt with this, please give a more specific reference?
Ah, there is one of Thunderdolts supporters now @68. They must be a new follower, bc TF throws tantrums-by way of vlogging-when people criticize him.
Speaking as someone with a PhD in chemistry, I beg to differ. It does grant me a degree in comedy. Okay so I kinda accidentally did dual honours, but that’s not important. You should have seen the results of some of my experiments. Hilarious!
Louis.
P.S. On topic: a) I was wondering when this would be noticed, b) I was amused by Ms Watson, again, c) I saw a comment on Twitter yesterday referring to the “Endless September when new young men on the internet need educating about sexism”, I think I saw it in Doc Freeride’s feed (Dr Janet Stemwedel). This is an excellent analogy. Every September academics have to take in a new intake of students who need to be educated about, for example, evolutionary biology. And every September there’s a few of those students who need to have creationist myths bumped from their head by decent education. And every September there are a few of those few who have been heavily indoctrinated by, for example, a “high priest” of creationism, like Ken Ham.
Yes. I just said Phil Mason/Thunderf00t is the Ken Ham of rape apologetics and sexism in the atheist/sceptic community. Deal with it fanbois. He’s off the reservation on this, regardless of any cool shit he managed before.
only if by “uncontroversial if a bit trivial” you mean “completely untrue bullshit”.
When a normal human being would say “holy SHIT I was lucky!” he takes credit for the outcome. His freak out leaving FTB and all the other shit he pulled after that reaaaalllly revealed the depth of his narcissism, this is just further proof of how ridiculously egocentric this guy is. I mean, christ he is basically saying “If only everyone were as awesome as I am, there would be no rape victims!!!”
There’s something very… interesting, as always, about the guy who freaked the fucking fuck out about harassment policies then going on to tell women how they should protect themselves from harassment. Smells distinctly libertarian.
#80: Eh, what? Women are not allowed to protect themselves? No comprendo…
darling, learn to read. where did I say anything about being allowed or not?
Rape Myths: http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html
If never drinking and dressing conservatively protected from rape, fundie women would be the least-raped women in the U.S. Obviously this is not true.
#84: Rather obviously, I don’t understand your “point” in #80, if you had any? I said that the statement that women should protect themselves is uncontroversial. Apparently, you think that is bullshit – the only logical conclusion being, that you think that women shouldn’t proctect themselves – where did I leave anything out?
bunch of alphanumeric characters @86
Jadehawk’s point is that ThunderfOOt is doing classic victim blaming and you’re supporting this. The only person responsible for a rape is the rapist. If the rapist doesn’t rape, then it doesn’t matter what the potential victim does or doesn’t do.
except that he doesn’t provide any useful information, so he is really just taking a big shit on everything victims of rape go through. Like a lot of dudes he feels competent to explain things to women that he has spent literally minutes thinking about when its the stuff of our lives that we have dealt with it for years. Its like a child telling you how to drive a stick shift, except this guy isn’t a child so he should know better than to talk about something he knows nothing about. It infuriates me. I know he knows nothing about it because he spent the whole video dismissing rape between people who know each other (as in, the majority of all rapes) and only dispensed tips on how to avoid stranger rapists. He spent no time *asking* victims of rape anything and all his time telling us all how to behave. He also seemed to think that he was more qualified to tell us all when something is ‘really’ rape than the people who went through it, as if anyone asked for his approval of their own experiences. Its a crock of shit. He gave a high five to rapists by agreeing with their justifications for their crimes. He is an asshole.
f43d348k,
Women are protecting themselves, as much as is reasonably possible. We are taught to protect ourselves from childhood onwards. When a teenage girl starts going out, she’ll probably get advice about not staying alone with strange boys, not drinking alcohol lest some boy “take advantage of her”, guarding her drinks, etc. from her guardians.
We bloody know all this already.
Even if we discount bullshit such as “don’t wear short skirts”, even things that make sense are condescending since they assume we’ve just dropped from another planet yesterday, and have no idea about dangers of this strange new world. Since thunderfoot’d advice falls into bullshit territory anyway, I don’t see how can you defend it. I mean, really, I’m supposed to protect myself by not sending off victim vibes?! Wtf?
#87: where, exactly, does thunderfoot say that rape is the victims fault? He _emphatically_ states that this is NOT the point he is making.
#88: I agree that he is rather sketchy when it comes to information on what you can actually do in the case of rapist you know, or perhaps even trust – but, as you say, he might not be the best qualified to give that advice. But that’s a far cry from “blaming the victim”, unless you actually think that 0% of the cases of rape (including date rape and so on), could have been prevented if the victim had acted more responsibly – surely you can’t mean that?
#89: I’m not sure I’m defending thunderfoot, per se. I rather agree that his points are somewhat trivial (which, if I understood him correctly, he knows), but I have yet to see anyone come up with evidence that he is “victim-blaming”.
And, not “sending out victim-vibes” seem to be the _only_ good advice (for stranger rapists, at least), since there seems to be concensus that these vibes are what rapist hone in on. Unfortunately, he doesn’t give any advice about how not to do that, hence my “trivial” caracterization
Of course, the examples I gave of what guardians tell young girls aren’t necessarily all good and some or obviously victim-blamey too, but it does shape the way we behave. It teaches us to be aware of our surroundings in a different way than boys and men are supposed to, and it’s something we pretty much have gotten accustomed to doing, up to a different level, in every single thing we do in life.
and yet it’s exactly what he says. It’s like one of those “I’m not a racist, but…” comments: saying you’re not [X] doesn’t actually erase the [X] in your comment. And giving incorrect advice that’s indistinguishable from victim blaming is victim blaming, no matter the number and intensity of disclaimers.
f43d348k,
I’d noticed.
Try to follow this:
1) The data on rape demonstrate it is a) very diverse in terms of victims and circumstances (i.e. no pattern regarding clothing, drunkenness, age, “virtue” etc), and b) overwhelmingly committed by people acquainted with the victim not “stereotypical, strangers in dark alleys”.
2) The overwhelming bulk of overt messages women get are “do not do/look like X and you will minimise your chances of being raped”.
3) Whilst rape is a crime, and thus there is some social stigma around it, the overwhelming bulk of overt messages men get is that women are in some manner “there for men’s pleasure”. Men do not get a large number of overt messages “do not rape, and it’s really your responsibility not to” (incidentally the exceptions where this has been the case demonstrate that overt messages of “don’t be a rapist” are very effective in preventing rape. Messages of don’t be a victim have never been demonstrated to be as effective (or even very effective at all IIRC).
4) From 2) and 3), and other data, we know that the burden of responsibility for rape is, in the general and common narrative, placed wrongly on the victims (largely women). The Catholic church has senior spokesmen saying that the victims of child rape were seducing innocent priests etc, the trope of “oh she was asking for it” abounds, victims are torn apart in the official systems (by police, courts etc) for their previous sexual behaviour, their clothes, their actions on the night etc etc etc. It is an endless tirade of forming a narrative that conveys the message that the victim can somehow prevent their rape.
5) All the data taken together shows, as hinted at in 1), that the only thing that makes a rape is the presence of a rapist. Babies get raped, were they wearing short nappies? 90 year old women get raped, were they perhaps drunk in frat parties? Women get raped after being drugged unconscious, let me guess, they’re begging for it! The set of circumstances and victims of rape is too diverse for a simple pattern of “victim do X and minimise chances of rape” to emerge (and yes the data backs that up). The only pattern that DOES emerge is “potential rapist do not rape and no rape will occur”.
6) The best educational methods focus on determining what IS rape, how to NOT rape (since the bulk of rape is acquaintance rape, not stranger in an alley rape). How best to get enthusiastic consent (there’s been an excellent conversation here lately that I largely missed which updated this concept. Ask Caine, she’ll definitely have links. In fact **CAINE SIGNAL** Isn’t it time the Page ‘O Links in this thread? Get it in early, eh? ;-) ). How best to challenge perceived norms around the relationships between men (sadly the bulk of class “rapist”) and women (sadly the bulk of class “rape victim”). And so on.
7) Focussing the narrative on “potential victims of rape, do X and you minimise your chances” feeds into existing cultural narratives that help rape be the ubiquitous phenomenon it is. And also the low conviction rate for rape, the low reporting of rape, the culture surrounding rape etc. Unlike property theft where simple precautions really do lower the incidence of property crime, e.g. valuables out of sight in parked cars, locked doors discouraging opportunistic crime etc, the crime stats about rape follow a different pattern. Again, to repeat and hammer it home, no single act, or set of acts on the part of the victim is in any way correlated with reduction in rape. The stats are very clear. Rape is unlike property crime in this manner, ergo the analogies made by Tfoot and others FAIL TO MAP ONTO REALITY. They are shitty analogies.
8) Reinforcing existing narratives about victim responsibility are not merely inaccurate and mildly harmful in the manner explained in 7), they are ACTIVELY harmful. Rapists escape the legal system this way by appealing to these common narratives, by appealing to common prejudice. Again, there’s a welter of data out there, look it up. More than that, they are focussing the efforts of governments, charities, voters, etc on the wrong people, they victims. Our opprobrium is focussed on those “bad women what got themselves a raping”. Our focus, in this instance, should be on educating young men and grown men on how not to rape (again demonstrated to be effective). We don’t need to tell thieves how not to thieve because the crimes are not comparable statistically.
9) It’s not about “women are not allowed/don’t need to protect themselves” it’s about focussing our social effort on doing the one thing that does work, rather than on victim blaming that doesn’t, i.e. educating men (who, as I said are, sadly, the bulk of the “rapist” demographic). Focussing on “women do X” is putting effort into an ineffective (and harmful, counterproductive) “solution”. Not an actual solution.
10) TFoot’s actions/words are a repetition of this problematic, harmful, misfocussed social effort. People are, with varying degrees of “nice”, trying to refocus his efforts.
Comprendo?
Louis
they’re not trivial, they’re incorrect.
The cause of the rape is fully upon the rapist. Period, end of story. There is nothing the woman can do to change that. Nor can your apologizing for rape effect that either. Stop trying to defend the indefensible.
He simply says (as far as I have seen) that women can protect themselves in various ways – that seems pretty uncontroversial, if a bit trivial, to me?
It’s probably the most useless “advice” on the planet.
I mean, why not extrapolate said “advice” and take it even further? Do nothing social, ever. Live in a constant state of paranoia. Never leave your fortified bunker. Stockpile weapons everywhere and never leave without them.
There’s a reason a vast majority of people don’t fucking act like that. It’s the bullshit mantra of “personal responsibility” taken to untold levels of arrogance.
The irony of all this, of course, is that by trying to explain rape awareness to people, it is actually helping to prevent rape and protect women, rather than just telling people to “protect themselves” from someone whose whims about rape could be anything imaginable.
Proof: http://www.savedmonton.com/about-our-campaigns.html
https://proxy.freethought.online/greta/2013/01/08/rape-prevention-aimed-at-rapists-does-work/
f43d348k,
How can “don’t send victim vibes” possibly be either good or trivial advice? There are no victim vibes, unless you and thunderfoot are keeping a scientific discovery under wraps.
f43d348k,
Arsebiscuits. Borkquote.
The trigger warning down is mine. The bit above the trigger warning is f43d348k’s.
Louis
it’s not just useless; when women do end up being socially pressured into behaving as the “advice” says they should, the advice-givers turn around and flip the fuck out at those misandrist women treating all men like rapists (see: reaction to the Schroedinger’s Rapist essay)
Thunderfoot says:
f43d348k,
Please explain how this is not absolute bullshit.
You can’t, right? It’s so obviously bullshit, a person can do nothing but shake his or her head sadly and weep for humanity. Now think about it, this is the analogy for a woman not giving off body language of the victim or victim vibes or whatever we should call it so as not to get raped.
I’m not really speechless, since I’m still typing, but I’m pretty close. It’s just so obvious.
This is the kind of advice TF hands out:
So basically, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Whee. Wasn’t that just fucking useful.
oh and btw, comparing flirting to an explicit promise = pure victim-blaming.
#97, ah, finally somebody bothered to give some links to actual data. My hat is off to you.
#94: Given #97s links I’m somewhat more ameanable to the point of view that (some) men needs to be educated about what rape is, even if it does seem extremely patronizing to me (seriously? Some men think that once the girl has said yes, she isn’t allowed to change her mind???). That being said, do you truly have data that shows that women being drunk has zero correlation with being raped? I’d like to see that.
NB: The fact that I ask for evindence does NOT imply that I’m blaming the victim ;)
Also, where do you live, given that you think rape has “some social stigma” associated with it? Surely you can see that that’s just nonsense, even among (hardened) criminals, rapist are, as far as I understand, considered fair game in prisons, precisely because of the stigma associated with it – in general society this is that much the worse. Imagine yourself meeting a guy for the first time, and having lunch with him. In which case would you be more likely to show sympathy:
1) he admits that in his youth, he has robbed a bank
2) he admits that in his youth, he raped a good freind
? Please don’t tell me that your answer is 2…
This should serve to help make the (admittedly incomplete) case that “rape culture” is not a real thing – nowhere in our society is rape tolerated, much less encouraged. However, as stated above, it might be that some men needs educating on what “consent” actually means – the numbers from Vancouver seems to indicate that.
#98: I assume that what he means be “victim vibes” is that you should not look scared or submissive – although I fully agree with the point that he doesn’t say much on _how_ one does that.
#96: Where am I trying to defend rape?
Ok, so how many drinks am allowed to have before my rape becomes my own fault?
nowhere in our society is rape tolerated, much less encouraged.
False. This leads in quite nicely back to the points people were making about rapes by someone you know as opposed to strangers, actually, along with my links about rape awareness. There are people who will say that not getting consent when someone’s drunk isn’t rape, others who say you can’t be raped by your spouse, and more who just say that the victim “regrets” the sex. If you need evidence of those points of view, I recommend checking out manboobz.com
To seal the deal – there’s a pick-up artist on the manosphere named Roosh V who admits in a book he wrote (Bang Iceland: How To Sleep With Icelandic Women In Iceland) that he literally raped a woman and doesn’t give a shit because it’d only be rape under American law. Is he ostracized by his community at large? Hell no.
http://manboobz.com/2013/03/23/mens-rights-redditors-team-with-pua-douchebag-roosh-v-to-raise-money-for-alleged-victims-of-feminism/
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders
f43d348k,
Please use names and/or quotes. It would make reading much easier for other commenters, since we wouldn’t have to look up numbers to see what and who you are responding to.
cute how you think that is patronizing (and not TF’s repeat of victim-blamey rape-myths that women are bombarded with daily), even though we know that dudes will admit to rape as long as you don’t use the Big Scary Word and just describe a scenario; even though we know that the narratives that something is “just bad sex” provides plenty of cover for rapists; etc.
bullshit. the word “rape” has huge social stigma, not the act of fucking without consent. Society doesn’t react horrified at rape scenarios as long as they’re phrased in the language of “game” or “seduction”. People don’t have a problem with lack of consent, they have a problem with “rape”; it’s just that that “rape” bears no resemblance to actual rapes.
reality denialist.
Monitor note:
Please remember to use Nyms and/or comment numbers:
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<blockquote>"quoted words"</blockquote>
<strong>bold</strong>
<em>italics</em>
<a href="LINK goes here"> Totally awesome youtube video</a>
The Rules
Hertta
The shorter your skirt, the lesser amount of alcohol takes for you to be at fault.
Then there’s the correlation to your general attitude and personality. If you are shy or socially anxious, that’s like going out without a skirt and expecting not to get raped. The number of drinks doesn’t even come into it.
Beatrice #108
Sorry! I should refresh before posting.
Daz,
Heh, I thought you were deliberately reinforcing my request by waving the monitor stick.
Thanks, Beatrice. But I’d like to hear f4whatever’s answer and also explanation how this is not victim blaming.
f43d348k #105
And which way do you think the causation runs, when a rapist picks a drunk woman as victim?
Are you trying to imply that her state of drunkenness causes the rape, or that the rapist’s desire to rape causes the rape?
Hertta,
Sorry, f4whatever made my sarcasm go into overdrive and now I have trouble stopping. It’s like he’s asking for it, you know?
Ok, now for reals. I would like to see his answer to your question too.
To Hertta’s question
1.
I will add another:
2. Are shy/introverted/socially anxious women supposed to change their whole personalities (although, getting a magic cure to social anxiety would probably be welcome) since those could make them appear vulnerable and therefore rapeable?
A comment on one of somegreybloke’s posts is worth mentioning at this point:
And more importantly, it undermines your ability to have me bite your leg.
“Also, where do you live, given that you think rape has “some social stigma” associated with it? Surely you can see that that’s just nonsense, even among (hardened) criminals, rapist are, as far as I understand, considered fair game in prisons, precisely because of the stigma associated with it – in general society this is that much the worse.”
As any rape survivor will tell you, no. This is plainly not true. The sad fact is that when women are raped by friends, the vast majority of the time their mutual friends are going to take his side. If she’s lucky, some will stand by her, and those will be good, true friends.
You seem to be stuck on this mental image of rapists as absolute monsters. No. They’re humans, like anyone, with hobbies and friends and loved ones. And it is precisely because most people think of rapists as horrible monsters that those friends and loved ones are going to be very, very reluctant to apply that label to their buddy. I mean, he’s so nice, after all! And there was that time he helped them move, and he always tells such funny jokes and he’s a good guy, he can’t be a rapist..
Here, to drive this home to you, is a letter to an advice column. Go read it. (Trigger warning)
http://clclt.com/charlotte/rape-is-rape/Content?oid=2141765
You got that? A man *raped* his girlfriend and *put her in the hospital* with internal bleeding. And what do his friends and family do? Tell her to forgive him because gosh, he feels really, really bad about it.
f43d348k, I don’t understand how you expect things to work.
Before a rape happens, preventive advice focuses mainly on exclusively on what potential victims should be doing to prevent it… and then after it happens, the preventive advice is miraculously forgotten and is not taken into consideration during hindsight analysis, because that would be victim blaming?
Is a victim of a past rape supposed to hear preventive advice that she didn’t follow at the time and not feel that she is being blamed for her rape?
A potential victim is considered mostly responsible for whether she gets raped before she does, but not after?
Seriously, how the fuck is it supposed to go?
Of course, society hates “rapists”. “Rapists are monsters”, “rapists deserve to rot in prison”, “rapists should be castrated”. (I do not condone these views, they are simply here to illustrate the… colourful rhetoric we hear all the time)
Of course, they’re talking about that subhuman species, the Rapist – a hunched, mouth-breathing creature with no human emotions or morals, crouching in bushes and waiting to pounce on any victim who comes too close.
They’re not talking about people, they’re talking about a caricature that’s so rare as to be almost nonexistent. The vast, vast majority of rapes are committed by people. Normal, everyday people who you’d walk past on the street and smile at. You probably know people who have committed rape. You may even be friends with some.
The two people who raped me are still around, perfectly happy, in fact still circulating quite freely in my old circles of friends. Circles I had to leave because I couldn’t feel safe with the rapists still mingling freely with my old friends. Yes, I told people. Whether or not they believed me, the rapists are still free and bear little to no stigma at all for what they did.
I am a real person and my experience is typical, not some outlier. Until we start really hammering into people’s skulls what rape is, how common it is and that the only cause of rape is the presence of a person who chooses to rape, there can be no progress.
that’s way to charitable at least in the context of what TF was doing, anyway. This is what he had to say about rape victims:
and this is what he had to say about a Rape Crisis Centre showing the message “If you have been raped, the most important thing to remember is that it was not your fault.”:
So as you see, not only does TF have no problem stating after a rape that if the victim had followed his advice, she wouldn’t have been raped, he is also pissed off that rape crisis centers don’t tell victims that.
This is what I posted in a Facebook conversation about this: “Some of the risk reduction advice I’ve seen includes things like never leave your drink alone, don’t allow anyone to get your drink for you, and don’t drink from communal drinks like punch bowls. That seems easy enough on its face, and a lot of women do try to follow that advice (at least the first two parts.) But it’s difficult to be thinking about that all the time, and it has social costs. I went to the ACA bat cruise last week, and I had a couple of people offer to get me a drink. That’s because we were on the upper deck and the drinks were downstairs and it’s generally considered polite and friendly for the person making a trip to the beverages to offer to get drinks for the people they’re with. Should I never accept offers like that? I went to the cruise by myself because the friend who was going to meet me there cancelled at the last minute. Should I have stayed home because she wasn’t going? Going by myself also meant walking a few blocks at night and going into a parking garage by myself. I’ve gone to a number of parties by myself, generally parties where I knew most of the people somewhat but no one very well and it was for a particular social group (in several cases, they were hosted and attended by people in my grad school program) so it didn’t make sense for me to bring a random friend along.”
So yes, I have a mind and I am capable of performing a risk assessment, and I have decided that having what most people would consider a normal social life is a reasonable decision. I also sometimes cross the street against the light when I can clearly see that there are no cars. “Performing a risk assessment” doesn’t mean “avoiding all possible risks all the time,” and it doesn’t mean “and therefore nothing bad will happen to you.” It’s possible that some drunk driver will come barreling down the road and mow me down if I jaywalk. But a drunk driver barreling down the road won’t necessarily be deterred by a red light either. In neither case would it be my fault if I got hit.
@beatrice #108 + @daz #110: Will do :)
@herrta #106:
none. Since neither I nor (I would strongly suspect) TF would ever blame you for being raped. The fact that people on this page have decided that “don’t let yourself become intocicated in an unsecure environment”==”victim blaming” isn’t on me (or TF), it’s on the people on this page.
@shala #107: OK, so everywhere except the (tiny) pickup artist community. Come on, that’s like saying that nazism isn’t stigmatized by society, because stormfront.
@jadehawk #109:
Since nobody can come up with a place where TF says that rape is the victims own fault – only cases where they think that’s what he means – that part doesn’t really warrant any response. The stats from the Vancouver experiment shows that there might be something to the idea of education towards men. Further, more rigorous, studies should be carried out, but I’m willing to be persuaded here. However, not being able to see that “don’t rape” is a patronizing message to men is litteraly beyond me – I guess we’ll just have to settle for agreeing to disagree.
Prove it. And not just with an anecdotal story, but with real data, and show me that these men actually define their actions as rape when not coupled to their own actions.
@daz #115:
More the latter than the former. Specifically, if a woman (or a man for that matter) makes herself an easy target, she’s going to attract predators – which, BTW, is all TF is trying to say in his video, as far as I understand him.
@beatrice #116:
Oh, arguing my points at TFs youtube page would be too easy now, wouldn’t it? There’s a reason why I’m here… BTW, sarcasm all you like, but expect return fire :)
Some of us have personalities that make us more likely “prey”. I happen to be a gay man. This most definitely means that there are some places I shouldn’t go: Football matches, heavy metal concerts, etc., etc. Is this fair? Hell no. Do I assume that “educating” people (let’s face it, straight people) is going to solve the problem? No. There are idiots everywhere, and while you can possibly reduce the number of them, this doesn’t mean that you and I don’t have a responsibility to ourselves to behave in a way to reduce the risk to ourselves. To me it means not being at the aforementioned places. To “shy” girls, it might mean, “don’t stay at a bar until 5 A.M. in a strange city, with only one friend, who happens to be male and have been staring at me a lot, but which I also like a bit, and get really drunk” (exaggeration promotes understanding ;) )
@beatrice #117: Fair point. But still, if you, as a woman had to choose, who would you rather be? Woman A or woman B? The point here is, that you, in TF and possibly my opinion, have some (not complete) control over which one you want to be. Until I hear specific references to TF saying something else, that will be my understanding of him.
Jadehawk
And T’foot’s apparent inability to take into account the context of this means he’s either thick as shit or lying through his teeth, regardless of any other “point” he tried make. Heaven forbid that I’d speculate, but let’s just say I wouldn’t put much money on the former.
So he actually thinks that what
is not violence itself, but stuff said to acknowledge the violence that happened?
That is just so ass-backwards.
ah but TF doesn’t say you’re supposed to avoid risks all the time. Doing that would mean you’re paranoid and will die alone and think all men are rapists. No, you’re only supposed to follow the anti-social prevention tips when a rapist is nearby. “There is an optimum line here”, and being untrusting when faced with a non-rapist means you’re a paranoid misandrist, while being trusting with a rapist means you didn’t protect yourself enough. It’s every woman’s responsibility to accurately walk that line, so as to not inconvenience men in any way.
Awesome. And she gets a lot of support in the comments and, at the moment, 4 times more likes than dislikes.
Funny how thunderfootinmouth presented no third party evidence, just his opinion. Like fmess above, all opinion, no evidence.
f43d348k #125
My emphasis. Because, frankly, uninformed bullshit really does need emphasising.
I note that you claim to have dismissed some grey bloke’s extremely painstaking analysis, based on little more than your distaste for a title. I recommend you go back and read the whole thing. because I see little point in anyone arguing with you here, considering your own admission that you can’t be bothered to take the actual fucking arguments you’re being presented with, into consideration.
blockquote fail AND hitting the submit button too soon
except that he already has, in this video. Because you see, getting raped while drunk is like driving while drunk.
are you fucking confused? of course they don’t think of the rapes they’ve committed as rape! That’s the whole point: “rape” may have social stigma, but not actual rape.
yeah, we’re aware that he thinks women are raped because they didn’t do enough to prevent it. We know he thinks it’s their fault.
because that’s totally how rapes happen.
because none of you fucknuts can ever provide an example that doesn’t amount to “women should probably just stop socializing except when under guardianship” and which wouldn’t get them labeled man-hating and paranoid if they actually followed it.
You understand wrong. That’s only really extended to child rapists.
Denied.
Oh taht ship sailed, sweety. TF explicitly has already.
Hahaha. No, it’s saying that it’s your fault you were raped, because you got intoxicated in an unsecure environment (Most rapes are commited by acquaintances and friends, so what’s a secure place to get drunk? Home, when I live alone entirely?). God, this is like watching Christian Fundies say, explicitly, they want to remove the rights of gays to bang who we please, but they’re not heterosexists, no sir. You’re victim blaming, in the most obvious way, that is apparent to the most casual observer. Own it. Or don’t, and flail pointlessly.
No, it’s like saying racism isn’t stigmatized by society because we hate the Klan.
Trivially done. Even without relying on drunkenness. It doesn’t matter what you wish he said. What matters is the message he reinforces from society.
You’re still trying to talk about stranger rape as if it’s the majority of all rape. That’d be cute, if it weren’t so pathetically common.
Wait, you don’t see how you’re proving our point, do you? People will freely admit to raping women, so long as you don’t attach the r word to their action – proudly even. They don’t define what they did as rape, even though it was sex without consent. It doesn’t bloody well matter if they connect their own actions to rape (Although they don’t, because rape is what monsters do, and they’re people). They will do it.
weytwut? How would your gayness even come up in these places? The places I was afraid of taking mai waifu out were the ordinary ones where we would definitely be seen as lovers.
What the shit? So what, is the USA just magically shooting hate rays into its citizens from the very soil that spark hate crimes? Why do you think you’d be safe in Denmark then? And make no bones about it – you would be safe in Denmark.
Lemme get this straight: You’re going to compare the primary criteria that determines whether you can get raped (Being a woman who left her home or does not live alone) to a quality you actually can hide (That you shouldn’t have to is immaterial, so says you)? Share your drugs w/me. A very, very tiny minority of women can hide their gender status (Most of *them* are transgender to start with, and can plausibly pass if they so chose, but most would hate to do so with a passion I doubt you can understand).
Bother. “Denied” was to link to this:
http://the-toast.net/2013/10/02/no-more-devils-advocate/
in fact, this “dont socialize in strange places where you don’t know anyone” basically translates to “don’t go to college* unless there’s one in your home town”, “don’t move to another city”, “don’t travel except with a chaperone”, etc. That’s not reasonable, and if women actually followed that advice even partially they’d be labeled paranoid.
– – – – – – – – –
*the safety notifications for my university end with a line not to talk to strangers. On a college campus. With dorms in which freshmen live. Pure absurdity.
@johannaschmitt #119: First, I’m sorry that you got raped – whatever else people might think on me here on FTB, please don’t get that one wrong. But the fact that your mutual friends have sided with him (which is possibly the norm) doesn’t mean that there is not a huge social stigma surrounding rape – it “just” means that your common friends were in a loyalty conflict and chose wrong. This is sad – but it is not evidence of “rape culture”.
@Forbidden snowflake #121:
Er…. yes? The fact that she didn’t follow some advice, that she might not even have had at the time, doesn’t magically imply that the full blame isn’t on the rapist.
She’s never responsible – if you read my posts, I never blame the victim – ever. Or I could phrase my response as a quote from Christopher Hitchens: “I can’t understand a bloody thing you’re saying”
@Sophia #122: Again, as with #119, I’m feel sorry for you getting raped. But again, the fact that only the rapist is to blame doesn’t mean that there are no other cause for some (not necessarily your) rape.
@burgundy #124: Well said.
Alright – what about this approach then:
Keep in mind here that rape isn’t something that magically happens, it’s something that a person does to someone else. No rape can happen if a person does not decide to initiate sexual contact with someone else without their prior clear consent.
If the victim of a rape is to blame at all for being raped, exactly what line do they have to cross to become accountable? What EXACTLY does a person do to make it justifiable to rape them?
@f43d348k
What, exactly, causes rape if not a rapist?
“You were raped because you didn’t take these steps, but you’re not at fault at all” is inherently contradictory.
Trivially false.
Yes, we know, you can’t parse the idea that you’re wrong, you don’t have to tell us this specially.\
Well yeah. The other causes are that we live in a society where dudes feel relatively free to rape, that we live in a society that doesn’t help or support victims….
f43d348k #137
You appear to have a somewhat warped idea of the meaning of “cause.” A potential victim’s drunkenness might make rape easier. Certain forms of dress might allow the rapist to rationalise rape. Etc. They do not, though, cause the rape. Ever.
Sorry cupcake, every time you try to tie any responsibility for avoiding rape onto the victim, you ARE blaming the victim. Your only recourse is to put the blame fully where it belongs. On the rapist making the decision to rape. Otherwise, you have nothing cogent to say.
followed by:
the goalposts, they’ve moved. But thanks for demonstrating how rape culture works, right there in your comment. “just” a loyalty conflict, between the victim of a rape and her rapists should be a fucking easy one to not get wrong, but you excuse their wrong choice nonetheless.
vs
you don’t understand the meaning of words. either it matters whether someone “lets” themselves be intoxicated, or it doesn’t. if it does, then there are “responsible” and “irresponsible” ways to act. If women are not responsible for being raped, then it’s not irresponsible to get plastered. Even alone in a strange city with no chaperone.
oops. the “followed by” was supposed to go between the first two quotes
@f43d348k
I’m not going to call you a shithead.
Your cranium is full of feces. Your noggin is literally made of poo. Excrement is the sole component of your brain. Your nickname in high school was “dreck dome”. Your fine pate is covered in fine plop. Your thought factory is jammed up with runny night soil. Your number one extremity is all number two. Su cabeza es caca.
Note: I _emphatically_ did not call you a shithead. That is NOT the point I was making, and only a total shithead would imply otherwise.
Ok, people are starting to ramble in here, so I’ll just address a few of the (more coherent) points.
@jadehawk #133:
So educate people on what rape is – seemingly this is necessary (if condesending to the vast majority of men), at least if the results from the Vancouver campaign can be verified. You know, as I already stated in #105 (if you could be bothered to read it).
@daz #131:
*sigh* Fair enough. Even if I did read the last couple of posts about it, in which he doesn’t really seem to have any points, I’ll give his “painstaking analysis” another try later.
@jadehawk #136:
Because socializing is the same as getting drunk /sarcasm
I’m fucking sick of how often the motive of strangness/unfamiliarity crops up in discussions of rape. 2/3rds of rapes are not committed by strangers. Over 1/4 of rapes are by intimate partners (that would be spouses and boyfriends), and half of all rapes happen within within 1 mile of the victim’s home.
By the logic of “minimizing” one’s likelihood of getting raped, women should only get plastered in strange cities with complete strangers, but never at home with their friends, family, and intimate partners.
f43d348k @ 125
Here are some “unsecure” environments in which people I know have been assaulted after having ingested alcohol:
Home with a roommate.
Home with a romantic partner.
Home with a spouse.
Home with a close friend.
Home with a parent/step-parent/parent’s romantic partner.
Home completely alone with the doors and windows locked, but I guess the windows didn’t have bars on them.
At a romantic partner’s house or apartment.
At a friend’s house or apartment.
In the bathroom at a friend’s party. (I should note that the people involved were in their 40s and 50s; this doesn’t just happen to young people.)
Camping with the literal boy next door she grew up with.
So, essentially, no one should drink at all. Ever. Regardless of gender, anyone could be raped in those situations. The really weird thing is? They could be raped without alcohol, too! Why, it’s almost as though alcohol is just a tool that rapists use and has nothing to do with whether or not someone is going to be raped…
If there isn’t a rapist, I could drink until I pass out and not get raped. If my roommate turns out to be a rapist–and how will I know until he rapes me?–then I might get raped while baking cookies for an orphanage and wearing a floor-length calico dress. The only “unsecure” factor here is the presence of a rapist. And they don’t helpfully wear badges, now do they?
Oh right, I’d forgotten that part. Dang. My poor feeble ladybrain is incapable of thinking things like “don’t trust rapists” without Thunderf00t telling me first, so of course I’m not able to understand such subtle distinctions.
you’re the dumbest human on the planet if you haven’t yet noticed that that’s precisely what TF was against in this video.
OK, we are obviously going in circles here. You can have your opinion that explaining rape via something else than “RAPIST ARE EVILLL!!! THUNDERFOOT WANT’S TO EAT OUR LEGS!! GHAAAHHHH!1!!!!1!” constitutes victim-blaming, I’m obviously not going to get through to you – whatever.
@sophia #138: Nothing justifies rape. As I have said over and over in here. However, this doesn’t imply that women can’t do anything at all to protect themselves.
Losing friend groups is not a loyalty conflict. It can’t be, because if you’re the one who has to leave, you’re no longer part of that group – nobody has any loyalty to you that matters any more. You can’t talk to members of that group freely any more, only the one still left has that privilege.
Who are they going to side with if not the person who they talk to and see all the time acting the same as they ever did? This is not rocket surgery. This is junior school level social studies.
Rapists have cover in society because victims are forced into retreat through blame, shame, being disbelieved, having no legal recourse, having it be their word against the rapists – and at the same time going through the very, very severe trauma that being raped can inflict on a person, with the added shit of the above piled on top. The poop cherry on the shitty excrement-smeared rape cake is that we then have to listen to people say that we should have done something different, we shouldn’t have been there. We shouldn’t have let them do this – Uh… “letting” someone have sex with you is called consensual sex. you can’t “let” someone rape you. Oh, and that’s if they actually call what you went through rape at all. “Perhaps you misunderstood? Perhaps you gave mixed signals? Perhaps you just regret it?”… yeah. Fuck.
But hey, I was wearing a short skirt… Oh wait, I wasn’t. Any of the many times I was raped. I don’t drink either. I wasn’t currently driving, so I wasn’t out. They were people I trusted, not random scary strangers in bushes taking advantage of me. One was my husband.
I reiterate – my experience is the norm. I am trying to give you a data point here. Take it.
So how many drinks am I allowed to have before I cause someone to rape me, F4whatever? How short a skirt causes a man to lose control like a feeding frenzying shark who has no control over his instincts and actions?
How many?
You see, as a woman looking to try to “protect myself”, this is fucking PERTINENT information to have. Should I just never go out? Never drink anything alcoholic? Never wear anything but a burqa? Or are you going to be giving me specifics here?
Fmess’s post at 137 reads like a less articulate version of that one guy who tried to simultaneously argue that rape victims bear some responsibility for their rape but aren’t at fault. Paul something I think. What is it with certain types of dudes who have to find some way for the victims to bear at least some responsibility for their rape? Hmmm. Here are some links to get you educated. Hell, just go read all 4.5k posts on the grenade thread I’ve linked and be educated on just how common rape and rape apologia is.
With your patented Incoherent Bullshit™. You haven’t said anything intelligent all day.
f43d348k #147
Jesus friggin Christ on a crutch. A large part of T’foot’s latest pavement-pizza was a screed against teaching teh menz about what consent actually means. Because teaching women to be “wasps” is apparently The True Way To Combat Rape™.
Why are you defending a speech which you don’t appear to have actually watched or read an analysis of?
(And you want to be careful with that “vast majority” phrase. It’s certainly not as vast as you seem to think, if, indeed, it’s even a majority.)
Please do. You could have read it ten times over in the time you’ve spent arguing against it having not actually read it.
this is ignorant wishful thinking. Research indicates that e.g. 66% of college students (male and female) buy into various combinations of rape myths, and that men are more likely than women to buy into them. Studies on non-college populations have found similar proportions. And that’s just for explicit agreement with rape myths; some research indicates that there’s an even greater number of people buying into the myths implicity. “The vast majority” my ass.
You seem to live in an alternate universe where only women who haven’t been raped hear what TF is saying (and what you are saying). In the real world women who have been raped hear this kind of shit all the time and know that they are being blamed for having been raped. Being blamed or not believed about rape is a second trauma on top of the old one.
re- ‘acting responsibly’- this is almost always a euphamism for drinking alcohol. People drink quite often and are not raped. Rape is not a natural consequence of any specific behavior. The critical factor is a person willing to rape being present. They only pick out drunk victims because people like you treat rape as a force of nature instead of a willful act of violence.
how adorable. you’re run out of bullshit and have resorted to strawmen. blatantly obvious strawmen, since “rapists are evil” is a notion promoted by TF, not by people here. People here understand quite well that rapists are humans, not monsters.
@f43d348k
“Nothing justifies rape. As I have said over and over in here. However, this doesn’t imply that women can’t do anything at all to protect themselves.”
We’re not talking about protecting ourselves, we’re talking about blame. Sure, there are things that women can do to protect themselves. We can learn basic self defense, carry guns, we can have guard dogs with us at all times. We can wear a full burqa and be accompanied by armed bodyguards and snipers.
The point you are missing so spectacularly here is that people talk as though women don’t already take precautions, as though they are partially to blame for being raped if they didn’t meet someone else’s standards for how they should “protect” themselves in order to somehow avoid being raped. Oh, and after the fact too.
We’re not stupid. We get raped anyway, and we get blamed for it. The rapists get away with it, and people come around saying “there are things you can do to protect yourself”. Oh really? HOW AMAZING. I never thought of that before. All that going out to normal, uncontroversial social events and not being a kung-fu master is what let me get raped, not the fact that a trusted person chose to violate me sexually. Thanks, smart person!
The thing about rape prevention is that it needs to actually prevent rape; not pointlessly restrict movement of potential victims; not displace rape; actually prevent it, meaning loqewr the numbers of rapes that happen. None of the shit TF and f43d348k mentioned actually leads to fewer rapes.
Rape apologists have a tough time here. We have evidence, and they present nothing but OPINION. How many links have you presented? Nothing but your opinion.
@162 – Jadehawk
My very tired brain thanks you. That’s exactly the point I wanted to try and make.
Rape prevention strategies need to prevent rape. The cause of rape is people choosing to rape. Prevention strategies would stop people choosing to rape, therefore need to be targeted at potential rapists. It’s the only logical way any such strategies could have any chance of being effective.
Targeting victims is ignoring the root cause of the problem and can only be ineffectual at best.
I wonder just how many people could ace this quiz? Or this one? And there’s this one, too.There are a hell of a lot of myths about rape that we have all internalized. Some of them we recognize as myths when they’re worded a certain way, but a lot of them slide right under the radar. Everyone–regardless of gender–would be well-served by having those myths thoroughly challenged and learning about the real facts.
It’s not an insult to men. It’s the best way for people to be aware, to recognize when someone is telling the truth, to understand what rape really is. Rape education can stop some people from raping, but it can also make people police the behavior of would-be rapists when they recognize predatory behavior.
Even if you would never, ever, ever rape and omg you think rapists are evil losers, having the education and wherewithal to say “dude, not cool” when a friend jokes about getting someone drunk for the sake of getting laid can go a long way.
the more I look at that, the more absurd it becomes. The “don’t be that guy” campaign is “something else than” that capslocked whargarble, and it’s something TF explicitly rejects because he’s the one who thinks rapists will continue to rape and that debunking rape myths won’t do anything. This comment bears precisely no relation to reality.
@f43d348k:
1) Wikipedia defines victim-blaming as “when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act are held entirely or partially responsible for the transgressions committed against them.” Do you agree or disagree with this definition. If not, why not, and what would you propose instead?
2) If someone is expected to do X to reduce the chances of being a victim of crime Y, then if they do not do X, they have contributed to the chances of crime Y happening to them. Do you agree or disagree with this statement? If not, why not?
3) “the fact that only the rapist is to blame doesn’t mean that there are no other cause for some (not necessarily your) rape.” (You, at 137) Do you believe that someone who causes something, in whole or in part, is thus responsible for that event, in whole or in part? If not, how do you distinguish cause from responsibility?
If a woman can take an action to reduce her chances of being raped, and she does not, and she is therefore contributing a causal factor to her rape, how is that not victim-blaming?
I also wanted to mention that being raped by different people over and over can produce an apathy about the situation, like “I’ll get raped again some day, I’m sure. I seem to be some sort of a rape magnet.” I know I felt that way many times.
CCC (Crystal Clear Consent)
* First of all: Understand that if you go forward with initiating sexual activity not knowing if consent exists, you may or may not be raping someone, but you have proved beyond a shadow of doubt that you are willing to rape someone. Black areas make you a rapist, grey areas make you willing to rape.
* Making absolutely sure that consent is obtained and mutually agreed on. This does not include trying for consent when a person is not in condition to grant consent.
* No doubts as to whether consent was obtained.
* No guesses as to whether consent was obtained.
* No assumptions as to whether consent was obtained.
* No doubt as to whether any partner was capable of giving consent at the time.
Crystal Clear Consent includes Fully Informed Consent. Consent granted under deception is not CCC, it is manufactured consent.
* If you use deception to gain sex–impersonating another person, lying about contraceptive use, failing to disclose STDs–you are denying your partner the right to fully informed consent.
* If you are not sure whether or not you have an STD, disclose this uncertainty. If consent is granted, take responsibility and use protection. Just because you didn’t know for sure is not a defense.
* If you whine and wheedle about using protection a/o contraception, you are not in CCC territory. You are willing to rape.
* Lying about or withholding information that, if known, would’ve resulted in dissent is rape.
* If you consent to X activity under Y conditions and the other party changes those conditions to Z, then you have not consented to what is happening.
Crystal Clear Consent Practices:
* Understanding that consent may be withdrawn, by any involved party, at any time. Initial consent does not mean you get to carry on if consent has been withdrawn. In other words, people are allowed to change their mind at any point.
* If you have not had sex with a given person before, mutually understood language with confirmation is the best way to attain Crystal Clear Consent. Relying on body language or assuming consent without clarification is nearly always insufficient with a new partner. As you get to know your partner(s) better, you will get better at reading nonverbal / nonlingual cues, but clear communication is still absolutely necessary. It is important to remember that rape can still be committed within the confines of a relationship, at any stage. Consent that is not communicated is not CCC.
* If your partner is communicating something, do not assume that it has nothing to do with consent.
* If you initiate or offer and are declined in the context of a specifically romantic, sexual, or flirtations setting, do not initiate or offer again until one of the following four occur:
1. the other party has taken a turn initiating/offering and been declined by you.
2. the other party has taken a turn initiating/offering, was accepted by you, but after the activity lapsed you wish to restart.
3. it is an entirely new romantic, sexual, or flirtatious setting.
4. An amount of time has passed that is inverse to the number of times they have accepted your offer before. While it may be acceptable when dating to offer again in a week or in a closer relationship to initiate again after, say, one day [or whatever is the negotiated norm in said relationship] it’s not acceptable to ask someone again if you’ve just met them.
* If you initiate or offer and are declined in a context that is not specifically romantic, sexual, or flirtatious, do not initiate or offer again. Seriously.
* If you’re beginning a new relationship or going for a casual hookup, enthusiasm is key! Your new partner should be enthusiastically and happily involved with you. If no enthusiasm is present, it’s best to go for more communication and put off sex for a while.
* A person who wants consensual sex doesn’t want to commit or experience rape, and a person who rapes does. Whether a given rapist wants their victim(s) drugged, unconscious, frightened, intimidated, trapped, manipulated or tricked, or just pestered until they give in, the rapist wants the end result to be that a rape happens. That includes being forced to penetrate someone else.
* Contrary to what is often thought, consent is not difficult. If you still aren’t clear at this point, read this: https://proxy.freethought.online/almostdiamonds/2011/09/20/consent-is-hard/ and this: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/06/if-consent-was-really-that-hard-whiny-dudes-would-fail-at-every-aspect-of-life/
* Don’t want to listen to us? How about MIT:
Effective Consent is:
– informed;
– freely and actively given;
– mutually understandable words or actions;
– which indicate a willingness to participate in
– mutually agreed upon sexual activity.
@168 skeptifem
Yeah, I can relate to that. Not so much many different people, but many times over by the same person. It took me so long to call it what it was because I felt that somehow I must have just been crazy – people just don’t do that – it couldn’t have been what it was.
It becomes an inevitability and your own doubt consumes you, especially when there’s a lot of gaslighting and isolation involved.
Basic Education Links, Part 1:
Explainer: What’s an MRA?
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/10/explainer-whats-mra.html
Rape Culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture
Rape Culture 101
https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/rape-culture-101/
http://victimblaming.tumblr.com/
Excellent explanation of privilege
https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/
Basic Education Links, Part 2:
Part 2:
Nice Guy™ 101.
http://synecdochic.livejournal.com/214607.html
Schroedinger’s Rapist.
http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/
Meet the Predators
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/
Predator Redux
https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/predator-redux/
Things Happen to Men Too
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/
Basic Education Links, Part 3:
Part 3:
XYOnline
http://www.xyonline.net/
The Male Privilege Checklist
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
Intent is not magic
http://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/intent-its-fucking-magic/
Straight Privilege Checklist
http://lgbteducationforum.com/?p=123
Rape Prevention Aimed At Rapists Works
https://proxy.freethought.online/greta/2013/01/08/rape-prevention-aimed-at-rapists-does-work/
Basic Education Links, Part 4:
Social Justice and Economics
http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Economics#Social_justice_and_economics
Social Justice Link Roundup
http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Feminist_link_roundup
Implicit Bias (We All Haz It!)
http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Feminist_link_roundup#Implicit_bias
Every Fucking Question You Have About Rape and Alcohol Answered, Over and Over*:
https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2013/08/08/what-do-you-do-when-someone-pulls-the-pin-and-hands-you-a-grenade/comment-page-1/#comments
*Note: 9 pages of answers, read them all.
http://answersforrapeapologists.blogspot.com/
Basic Education Links, Part 5:
https://proxy.freethought.online/brutereason/2013/04/03/my-oppression-is-not-your-thought-experiment/
White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/03/25/predator-theory/
Timeline
https://proxy.freethought.online/lousycanuck/2013/08/12/sexual-harassment-accusations-in-the-skeptical-and-secular-communities-a-timeline-of-major-events/
On teaching consent:
http://goodmenproject.com/families/the-healthy-sex-talk-teaching-kids-consent-ages-1-21/
f43d348k
I have some control over whether I’m going to be raped. If I don’t take proper care, it is almost like I want to be raped (since I know that I should take these precautions, but I don’t). No, no victim blaming here.
Jadehawk and Mellow MOnkey’s point is also worth repeating. A great number of rapes happen in home, rapists are family or friends. Even if Thunderfoot’s “advice” made any sense, it would still be useless in those cases.
Unless, of course, we extrapolate it to saying that women should just recognize these future rapists and not get involved with them, don’t be friends with them, etc. Am I on the right track here?
<div class="pedantry">
The best way to avoid being attacked by an animal which has young to protect is not “not to look like prey.” It is to not look like a threat to the animal’s young.
</div>
Daz at #177. Could ThunderingFool had made a worse analogy if he tried. Comparing the actions of a mountain lion mother, out to protect and teach her cub to the actions of a rapist.
(I really hate most analogies. It clouds the arguments.)
Goodbye Enemy Janine
Especially when the analogies aren’t, erm… analogous.
@137
f43d348k
What, exactly, causes rape if not a rapist?
Jadehawk (#93)
And those who uncritically believe the initial disclaimer and then see the victim blaming or racism are learning to discount those things as victim blaming or racism in order to avoid cognitive dissonance.
seems that f43d348k is simply using a different word (“cause”, instead of “blame” or “responsibility”) in order to attempt to hide their victim blaming. seems not to realize that victim blaming is more than using the word “blame”.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/nu/taboo_your_words/
as with many trolls, they mistakenly believe (or hope others believe) that what they say is only composed of words and sentences, not complete ideas, translatable content, or contextual significance.
and that’s before we even mention the factual errors…
Just a final little thought before I go to sleep:
If there are causes of rape other than the presence of a rapist, it’s possible for rape to occur when no rapist is present.
So a woman who gets drunk, wears sexy clothing, goes out by herself or acts in an anxious or insecure manner is likely to be “raped” even if there is no other person present, are they?
But Daz, how else could Thundering Fool make the point that women would not get raped if they did not act like “victims” and “prey”. And also point out what a big fucking badass he is, facing down a mointain lion. A mountain lion that probably was just out to protect her cub, not hunt a human.
Janine, I think you misspelled “jackass.”
As to the rest; this is Thunderbutt we’re talking about. I’m sure he’d find a way. Ever since he decided to tell us all that talking about feminism was a distraction, he’s made a career out of bullshitting about feminism.
No, Daz, I did not misspell. ThunderingFool is a human. Just not a decent example of one.
Just to flesh out one of the points being made by many commenters, here’s a link to a study from the journal Lancet: Prevalence of and factors associated with non-partner rape perpetration: findings from the UN Multi-country Cross-sectional Study on Men and Violence in Asia and the Pacific
The noteworthy part I’m calling attention to is in the methods, which I’ll quote:
So, the study team thought it pragmatic to avoid using the word rape, as the survey conducted relied on self-reporting the perpetration. This reinforces the idea of the word rape and the act of rape having different social values attached to them.
Of additional note, the most prevalent reason given by the perpetrators for raping was sexual entitlement – the belief that if a man wants sex he has a right to have it, irrespective of the woman’s views.
This was in response to f43d348k requests for links/data (of the non-anecdotal variety). I think it unlikely that he’ll make it past Caine’s wall of links. And his strawman in #152 seems a little bit on the hyperbolic side, suggesting no intention of honest discourse. But it’s there in the event he does come back and my impression is wrong.
I also second Nerd of Redhead’s observation that f43d348k has not presented any evidence of his own, and I go further to wonder why f43d348k hasn’t placed the same burden of evidence on the claims of Phil Mason/Thunderf00t.
Sorry, previous link was to the NPR story. Here’s the link to the study: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X%2813%2970069-X/fulltext
Brianpansky:
Oh, we are very familiar with that shtick. Paul W. wouldn’t shut up about it, for two pages, then on into Thunderdome.
Karl, please note the education links, Part 2, specifically Meet the Predators and Predator Redux. Those were the initial studies done which found that as long as the word ‘rape’ was not used, men would confess to having raped.
eh, i’m getting error mesasges when i try to post comments on t-foot’s video. am i banned? i was just now trying to tell “waltermh111” that “don’t invite for coffee at 4am in an elevator” is actually very reasonable advice. some clueless people over there…
i posted once last night i think, and once today.
but now i can’t.
nevermind, i signed out and signed in and commenting worked this time…sometimes youtube might just be glitchy…
Caine,
Belated thanks for the information/link posts. Every thread on feminism, sexism, etc etc etc should start with them IMO. There has to be a better way than you bearing that burden though. Automatic insertion of links into the comments of fuckwits perhaps? ;-)
Louis
Random strings of letters and numbers man is why I’ve grown to reflexively despise anyone who uses the phrase: “Let me just play devil’s advocate here”
Maybe it’s my lack of a philosophy background, but I’ve literally encountered it in no other way than someone reiterating bullshit dominant cultural myths with a dismissive tone to all facts and then act like they are doing something deeply intellectual and that I’m the asshole for getting pissy about recognizing the tactics.
I’m sorry, but fuck your devil’s advocates. The devil don’t need no fucking advocate, he doesn’t exist outside the Lucifer comic books and in there he’s a badass who considers your “advocating” about as desirable as herpes. So either be the “devil” and advocate for yourself like the honest hack you are or shut the fuck up and stop trying to pollute the pond.
Louis @ 193, the links are at the wiki, anyone can copy and paste them. http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Sexism_Education_101_Link_Dump
Devil’s Advocate used to be a respectable job.
I’m only caught up to 124 so far, but I just need to note on “rape prevention strategies”, this.
I’m always the designated driver, not because I’m morally opposed to alcohol or drinking in public, but because I’m not all that invested in it and tend to prefer to leisurely enjoy drinks when I imbibe. I don’t go to parties, because I’m a massive introvert and parties are not my thing. I’ve had a sum total of three people I have gone on dates with, two of them I am currently in relationships with. I did often walk alone at night when I was younger, but nothing ever happened to me. I do not often make much of an effort with my appearance as I prefer agendered presentations.
When I was raped, I was wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I was in a well-lit crowded space, filled with people who could see me. I had come to the venue with my partner and one of my parents.
By all bullshit rape-apologist moralizing, I did everything “right” to be “safe”.
The only thing I didn’t have was a fear and paraonia about people approaching me from having to have survived a barrage of constant rape culture throughout my early life. I wasn’t trained to worry about each new approach and plan exit strategies if it went wrong.
Instead I followed the reactions of those around me and those I trusted and assumed if they weren’t making a public big deal about it, there was nothing to make a big deal about.
But it didn’t stop my rape.
I was still raped.
Recently I was at a fetish fair. I had my top off in the middle of an area with some bad reputations. I was taking public transportation so I had a few. I was making grand public displays of affection with my similarly attired companions.
I was not raped there.
It wasn’t because I “learned a lesson”. It was because there wasn’t a rapist there.
The illusions of control are just that and are part and parcel of the rape. Because the rape is used to enforce the selling of this idea that if women abandon all their freedoms and get nicely back in the cage, all of this will stop. But it never stops.
Because those that defend the cage don’t want it to stop.
Thanks Caine @ 190!
fucker @125
Okay, this needs some very specific pushback.
I’m a trans* woman and I’ve been in football matches and heavy metal concerts. I went alone in full transwoman pride getup to an Otep concert and moshed in the pit. I once was in full pride getup on a bus in Denmark with some neonazis on board going to a national team friendly. Even got up in their faces about it.
Nothing bad happened to me. In fact, I was welcomed with open arms and in the former was only chided for not taking off my glasses before moshing.
But I went to a geek con I had been going to since I was 13 to a panel that was supposed to be safe and there I was attacked.
It’s almost like being in the presence of someone who bashes or rapes is the real ingredient rather than how meekly and politely I cede things I like to fuckwads because it’s stereotypically enjoyed by people with a reputation for enforcing artificial divides with violence.
And like you never know what they’ll consider to be “their” space until it’s too fucking late.
Caine,
You see, you’d think I knew that.
{facepalm}
Louis
Caine @189
Yeah. My internal response when I read through that shit catching up is “Oh, you don’t see anyone who’s victim blaming? Well, why don’t you try looking in a fucking mirror?!?”
Yeah, wasps. Wasps are one of the very few animals I ever kill deliberately – because they are liable to sting, and the sting is very painful, and can be dangerous. So, don’t give too good an imitation of a wasp in my vicinity, unless you want to be swatted with a rolled-up magazine if you refuse to leave via the nearest window.
Analogies – how the fuck do they work?
@ 202
Nick Gotts
it’s a difficult question, because analogies are impossible to describe.
It’s with very real regret that we must inform you that your petition to play devil’s advocate has been denied.
Caine @#169-175 – #170
AWESOME
Thank you!
Thunderf00t:
Nick Gotts @ 202
The simple wasp, which people know will fight to defend itself, and are therefore discouraged from attacking.
Rape has a social stigma. Conveniently, rapists and their abetters have found out that they can define “rape” out of existence by restricting it to a near-impossible scenario. Voilà, the majority of rapists can keep on raping because what they do is not considered Real True Rape-Rape anymore.
Also, I dug my fingernails into my fist out of frustration for fwharrgarbl’s sheer lack of awareness. I need to take a break.
the trolls have really been invading the comments section in the OP video this past hour.
vaiyt @207:
They can also redefine survivors so that if you are not the right kind of survivor, whether you were raped or not no longer matters.
brianpansky
This advice should be moulded into the casing of every device produced, anywhere, which is capable of accessing the www. “YouTube comments-boards are a subdivision of Hell&trade. Avoid at all cost.”
karl (#206)
Aren’t you just proving ThunderdOuche’s point about wasps needing to be careful of how much they drink or… uh… whatever it was?
Got it! Summat seemed familiar, and I bloody knew he’d nicked that analogy fromsomewhere, but it took me ’til now to remember.
A. Noyd @206
Exactly the opposite actually. Even the mighty wasp is not immune to the clever devices a man employs when he must have his way. Accordingly, emulating a wasp remains shitty advise.
*advice
karl (#214)
What are you saying? You don’t think wasps have agency (when people go out of their way to circumvent that agency or something)? You’re reducing wasps to passive objects with no control of their environments!
Daz:
Ha! Mason is no Mowry, to be sure.
I might point out to Thunderf00t since he’s such a bio expert, arguing evolution and all, that most Wasps are not very aggressive. Solitary wasps are unlikely to sting. It’s the social species that are aggressive.
So what Thunder00t is suggesting is that we band together under say one clearly defined banner or flag, and viciously attack anyone who threatens our safe space?
Or that we paralyses people like him, and hollow out his body as a cradle for our young….either way.
Ingdigo Jump:
Yep. We’re lucky, we have the solitary wasps hanging about our house. They get inside frequently, especially as the weather gets colder, and I always rescue them and get them back outside. They are very mellow.
Some people in town had the misfortune to have paper wasps build a nest on their garage. The nest was massive and beautiful, but the colony had to be destroyed because of their aggressiveness.
But I thought that combining human rights and atheism destroyed atheism way back in 2012.
We get the occasional paper wasp, but it’s the sort that built very small nests.
The big problem are Yellow Jacket Hornets. They build underground or in rotting wood and are very aggressive. So their nests are hard to see and going near them agitates them easily.
Been quite a few occasions they took up shop in a flower pot that got over turned, or a nest got run over by a wood chipper or rototiller
Also fun story from camp.
One time a kid got stung by a bee. He had an allergy so they sent him to the nearest first aid box (they put up boxes filled with first aid outside cabins so they’d be in ready reach) to grab benedryl and salve for it. The poor kid opens up the box only to find paper wasps had built a nest just inside it.
Ing @ 222, that’s yet another problem with Tfoot’s supposed wasp analogy – there’s a wide variety of wasps, and much like people, they aren’t monolith either. Behaviour varies a lot. One thing which can be stated with certainty is that the more Tfoot opens his mouth, the more obvious it is that he seriously stinks at thinking anything through.
Yes, I look forward to future videos along the lines of “Spouses: How not to be abused,” “Black men in the early twentieth century: How not to be lynched” and “Gay and Trans- people: How not to be attacked and killed.”
Because he’s wise in the ways of the world, and everyone knows all any of us cares about is ourselves. Women don’t want to be raped, but we’re all fine with someone raping another woman.
In any case, if we all protected ourselves, rape would end! Because not only are wasps never killed, but their existence means no other insects are killed. And even if not, if every other insect just acted WASPy, they’d all be home free!
I would like to know how my clothing choices can help cause me to get raped. If I wear a short skirt, does it force itself upon strange men and demand they stick parts of themselves, or other objects, up my vagina? Does it hold a gun to their head and demand they fuck me and that if they say no, it will kill them?
How about my drink? Does it grab the penises of random passerby and attempt to insert it into some of my orifices?
I want to know how anything I do, or don’t do, forces someone to rape me. Because saying that I have done anything at all to even partially ’cause’ my rape is saying exactly that. I, at least somewhat, forced some person to rape me. My clothes, my drinking, my something made them do it. They were not entirely in control of their actions, something I did manipulated them like a puppet.
Would a low cut shirt pull those strings? Would cleavage leap upon strangers?
@romanvt:
If I, a man, don’t rape every woman in a short skirt in sight, am I doing something wrong? Am I less of a man? Is there something in me that prevents women’s actions from forcing me to rape them? Is Thunderf00tinmouth going to make sense if I intoxicate myself?
I’m confused. What’s the take home message? Does this mean I have to encourage a mountain lion to rape a drunk wasp in a short skirt to save atheism because of Deep Rifts ™ ?
Oh it’s all so confusing!
Louis
A mountain lion is furry, feline, and hard to mistake for a human, thus the human seeing a mountain lion coming toward them can always accurately assume that they dealing with a potentially dangerous predator. The “avoid rapists” defense would maybe make some sense if all rapists were as easily distinguishable within the population as mountain lions are. Imagine for a second if all rapists and people willing to rape wore fiberglass antennas with sporty high-visibility flags: I suspect you’d see frat parties break down into two groups – the people with the flags, and the people avoiding them.
A wasp carries a weapon and part of its strategy of intimidation is to be individually disposable and to favor attacking. In chunderfoot’s world I imagine he sees all women carrying guns and simply blasting anyone who looks like they might be a problem. That’s how wasps do it, and that’s why they are scary. It would probably work, too, but it wouldn’t work well.
Someone used the term “risk management” above; that’s a topic I know some things about. In risk management, the idea is to assess the risks and reason about what response is going to give the best outcome – a straightforward cost/benefit analysis. Women acting like wasps and blasting anyone who looked scary with portable artillery, would be costly in many ways and – oddly – a few would still get raped because the wasp strategy applies darwinian pressure on the rapists, too, so they’d adopt new strategies in return. This is a crucial “must not forget” in risk management and it illustrates why an active foe is so much harder to deal with than, say, basement mold. Last but not least, risk management tells us to seek the easiest, most cost-effective, and reliable way of reducing a risk. If there’s a way to nearly completely mitigate it, that is extremely inexpensive, compared to a way of partially mitigating it that’s complex and expensive – we choose the former. That is why risk managers would say the best way to address rape is to convince the rapist not to become a rapist.
Is Thunderf00tinmouth going to make sense if I intoxicate myself?
Your mileage may vary, but I read this thread last night after drinking most* of a liter of burgundy and it didn’t make it any more coherent.
(* there are always a few drops you can’t get out no matter how hard you hammer on the bottom of the bottle)
Hey!
the subject of risk management and analysis is right on the money.
people seem to seldom use those tool in any consistent way and not just about rape either.
The thing I find so appalling is some who makes reaped claims to be a rational realist can so consistently issue rants that are so steeped in emotion as to be little different from the rants of the ignorant uneducated stereotyped character of the political cartoon.
even when I first saw one I was struck by the emotion tone and found it disturbing I no longer even bother to look.
uncle frogy
@ 223
You know, the ‘helpful’ first aid kit full of wasps is kind of an excellent metaphor for the extra layers of shit and torment a rape victim may receive from the ‘justice system’ and her friends and gossipy acquaintences.
I found thunderfoots video to have some good points. The fact of the matter is there will always be rapists, just like even tho we teach people not to murder, murder still happens. Therfor it is foolish for us to not educate people on how to reduce the chance of it happening to them. We don’t have to like it, but its how the world is.
canpinter @234:
Okay, canpinter, I’ll bite. I was raped when I was nine years old. It continued for 2 years. My rapist was my Cub Scout leader. What is this magical thing that I should have done, should have known, to keep from being raped? And, since I obviously didn’t do the right things to reduce the chance of being raped, does that mean it really was my fault? That my guilty feelings are correct?
By the way, these are not rhetorical questions. Actually, I have a dream that someday, someone will actually try to answer them.
canpinter, do you also advocate telling people how not to be murdered?
Most rapes are carried out by people known to the victim – family, friends, teachers, colleagues, intimate partners. How the hell is anyone supposed to “take precautions” against them? Are you suggesting all humans (or wait, let me guess, all women) just take vows of chastity and live in closed convents?
Except that would be oppressing teh dudes, wouldn’t it.
(Ogvorbis, did that read as erasing you and other male victims? I’m focussed on the “advice” given to women here, I know.)
No, it didn’t, kittehserf. I think that men who rape children, boys and girls, look at them the same way a rapist looks at adult women — something that exists to give them pleasure.
Advice about what women should do to avoid being raped (as canpinter does, here), however, do make me feel like my experience does not exist in hir world. Which is why I keep asking, again and again and again,the same questions which they will never answer. Because I, and Caine, and others who were raped as children, give lie to the toxic misogynistic Abrahamic victim blaming of canpinter, and Abewoelk, and Thunderf00t, and all the rest of them.
Care to provide links to evidence that these methods actually work to reduce rape and by how much? Or are you just another MRA opinion person? Look here for that evidence.
Thank you, Ogvorbis.
Things to give them pleasure pretty much sums it up, I think.
All this shit about rape prevention ignores the agency of the rapists. It’s like they’re just forces of nature, or accidents, like tripping over a rough footpath ‘cos you weren’t looking where you were going. The fact that a person chose to do this to another person never gets mentioned at all, unless they’re othered as “human vermin” or whatever, who are obviously ineducable and unreachable.
Gah.
@238 I have been unable to find any (and please don’t quote this sentence alone but follow it with the next one) studies done on the matter. This is true for many crimes tho, no study has shown that not walking in the woods wearing nothing but 50 pounds of bacon and sounding a bear call reduces your chance of being attacked by a bear, that dose not mean you cant use basic risk assessment.
Well, fortunately, the outdoor sports community doesn’t shame hikers who choose not to walk through the woods wearing 50 pounds of bacon for being bear hating scum (“HOW DARE THEY ASSUME ALL BEARS ARE DANGEROUS ANIMALS?!”).
Nerd #238
Your link’s borked.
canpinter #240
In the meantime, Caine posted a shitload of links, starting at comment number 171. That should be enough to get you started.
Then shut the fuck up. Your OPINION is nothing but rape apologist bullshit, making me think you might be a rapist yourself. That is what you sound like blaming the victim, and not the perp. Which is why shutting the fuck up is your only option.
Sorry
Google Scholar for reasearch papers:
http://scholar.google.com/
ok lets say i don’t lock my windows and my house gets robed, was it my fault me house got robed, NO it was the thief, are there things i could have done that would have lowered the chances of being robed without really encumbering me to any real extent, YES. im not blaming the victim, im saying that we need to accept that bad people exist, have existed and will exist forever and that we normal people need to do what we can to minimize the damage they can do and how often they can do it.
canpinter
Why are you avoiding the issue? Blunderbutt is not merely arguing for risk avoidance. He is actively arguing against teaching about issues of consent.
im not avoiding the issue the main points of his video are A these people (rapists) are not teachable and B because of A we need to do what we can to avoid those people . also please stop refereeing to him or others you disagree with by mocking names, or in nerd of redheads case saying im likely a rapist, it is never productive.
Anybody who uses this phrase without specifying what the fuck they’re trying to produce is a worthless fuckhead.
Also, canpinter, since you’re spouting the same fucking bullshit, I’m just going to copy-paste what I wrote in the other thread.
Understand?
That is the question, isn’t it, Rossignol? If Phil Mason and pals are correct, men are dangerous animals, in which case maybe the lesbian separatists were right and we should steal men’s sperm before killing them all.
Sally my goal is to have an honest civil discussion on how to best reduce the number of rapes/sexual assaults in our society. my point about being productive was that calling people names or accusing them of crimes based only on the fact you disagree with them is not helpful to that goal.
canpinter #247
That stereotypical rapist-in-the-bushes sociopathic rapist you’re picturing in your head quite probably isn’t. You’re right.
That rapist is not, by a very very long chalk, the majority of rapists.
A huge number of rapes are not the extreme-violent affair you’re picturing. Many rapes happen because the perpetrator has no clear idea that “no” means no, that anything but an informed, clear and enthusiastic “yes” should be treated as “no.”
1: I will refer to Blunderbutt by whatever name I want to.
2: Given Blunderbutt’s clear and startlingly dumb views on the issue of consent, it would not surprise me in the least to find that he had raped without even realising he had raped.
3: Your concern for the “civility” of an argument, whilst ignoring the content, is noted. And ignored.
Yes, and, don’t forget: according to RAINN, just over 50% of rape victims are assaulted before they reach their 18th birthday. So, assuming that we’re not holding children responsible for preventing their own rape, combined with the fact that 60% – 80% of rapes are not committed by strangers, we’re talking about preventing, what, perhaps a quarter, given the most generous assumptions about the overlap between those two sets? And yet this is the ONLY subset of rape that these fuckers can ever focus on “preventing” with their “common sense” advice about dressing modestly and not fucking guys you met the same night at the bar.
Yeah, thanks a bunch guys. SUPER helpful there. Oh right! You weren’t trying to help. Silly me.
@ SallyStrange:
No, no, no. It’s the feminists who hate men.
Did I do that right?
@
Bullshit.
Why the fuck do you want a “civil” discussion, fucker? Too weak-stomached to talk about what so many have actually experienced?
Copypasta fail, obviously @ canpinter.
ok let it be said for the 10001 time rapists are EVIL, the people who claim they just didn’t know what consent is are EVIL and LYING. we should do everything we can to find them and lock them up to prevent them from harming others.all that being said can anyone here honestly say that people have absolutely no ability to do anything whatsoever to do anything that can lower the chance of it happening to them?
canpinter #257
For fucksake, we are not saying they’re lying. We are saying that people don’t have a good and clear idea of what consent is: therefore it would be a rather spiffing idea to teach them what consent is. There would be no point in advocating teaching something, if we thought people already knew it and were lying when they said they didn’t.
Are you trying to be obtuse? Did you take a fucking course in it somewhere? I assume you passed with flying colours.
Jebus!
Just fuck off, OK, canpinter? FUCK OFF.
Quoting Daz:
If you don’t understand why people are reacting the way they are…. go read. Because you (charitably) obviously don’t understand or (uncharitably) refuse to understand.
Alternately, since Daz posted while I was typing…. I’ll quote this instead:
+1
In the absence of effective change in the culture, including education about consent and ethical sexual behavior, yes. There are things us potential targets can do to lower our risk of getting raped.
1. Live alone
2. Work from home
3. Never socialize with anyone
4. Be white, straight, able-bodied, and cis, and for dog’s sake, never ever have a mental illness or developmental disability. Also, never be a child; a large proportion of rape victims are first victimized when they are children.
Sounds reasonable right?
FUCK THE FUCK OFF.
we already do teach what consent is till the cows come home, and guess what some “people” chose to ignore it or feign ignorance, so yes keep doing that but also teach people how to asses risk and avoid it when possible.
Are you going to apologize for comparing my pussy to your wallet, female-slavery-apologist?
You do realize that this is:
(a) untrue,
(b) explicitly rejected by Thunderf00t/Phil Mason, and
(c) fucking untrue.
Seriously, if you’re going to make heroic attempts to be completely stupid, you should probably go elsewhere.
Where? And for how long has this been happening. Do you have statistics on how successful this policy has been?
[Hint: go through the several active threads on this topic and you’ll find links to evidence that it does work.]
Some advice: Shut up, stop going on the defensive, look into the subject and think for a while. Stop taking Blunderbutt at face value, just because you think he makes cool videos.
sally i will apologize for not being clear that my comparison was in concept and not of severity for that i am sorry. rape is clearly far more damaging, personal and has far more long lasting ramifications then simple theft. saying that i still say that in both cases of rape and theft simple safe precautions can be taken by people to help lower there risk, remove it no but lower it.
Monitor Note:
The Rules
canpinter this means you.
PatrickG where has thuderfoot stated we should not teach people not to rape? in his video he simply said that teaching not to rape alone will not fix the issue.
To every complex problem there is a simple elegant and wrong solution
Here’s something that annoyed the fuck out of me and reminds me of Elevatorgate
ahem
a) body lanugage is totes important with regard to rape ZOMG!
b) ZOMG! HOW CAN YOU BE READING ANY INFERENCE OR SUBTEXT OR GREATER CONTEXT!? WHERE DID IT SAY (X) IN BLACK AND WHITE! COFFEE IS JUST COFFEE!!!!
A) Increase female agency
B) Decrease or eliminate selective prosecution
C) Remove apologizing for rape in communities
D) Allocate resources for prosecution (such as to processes the huge back log of rape kits)
E) Hold strict penalties for law enforcement that bully or coerce alleged victims
@ canpiter:
Seriously? Have you not fucking read this entire thread, or somegreyblokes takedown?
Note the bolded part. That’s Thunderf00t. That’s him saying that we can’t just educate people out of their sexuality. That’s obviously him stating that rape is not susceptible to education. Is that not clear enough for you?
There’s quite a bit more in that video, but since you’re clearly arguing from ignorance, I don’t feel the need to educate you further. This was simply a first-pass grab.
ingdigo all i would add to your list is F) teach people how to avoid potentially dangerous situations. it will not fix the problem alone but it can help
And Jesus-on-a-cracker, he’s comparing education about consent and rape to homosexual deconversion.
Do you need another 2×4 across the head, or are you really just that unwilling to face up to the fact that your position is repugnant?
canpinter
FFS
Hey here’s an idea. Why don’t we ban and close down bars and frat houses? If these are dens where criminals are known to gather and it’s not safe for women why are we not patrolling the shit out of them or paving them over.
PatrickG that is exactly the point, some people can not be educated out of there desires to rape, and some will act on them regardless of how we teach them, so why not teach the potential victims how to avoid these people?
drinking in public, going to public places, talking to strangers is defined by you as dangerous situations to be avoided.
You are just like those fuck shits in India who blame the woman who was sodomized to death for leaving the house and putting herself in harms way.
Describe them.
You know dipshit, fucking rape victims say that your attitude hurts them and makes them feel like shit. But you keep going at it. In fact you defend someone who had the gall to whine that rape crisis centers don’t spend enough time lecturing victims about what they did wrong.
Wow. I have no words. Are you actually arguing that minimizing harm is worthless because someone, somewhere will still commit harm?
BREAKING NEWS: Nuclear war will cause no harm, because some people will survive! And we can teach them how to survive fallout! Just don’t go outside without a hazmat suit!
You are clearly incapable of logical thought, and I highly advise that you reconsider your self-conception that you can think — at all. Also, across repeated posts, you fail to notice the difference between “there” and “their”. Not the only basic language error you’ve routinely engaged in across these posts, either.
Yes, I’m mocking your spelling and grammar. And yes, that’s irrelevant to the subject at hand. But since you fail at basic logic, no pangs of conscience prevent me from simply making fun of you.
Fuck off.
[Request to Monitors: Too harsh? :)]
ok i see now that arguing here is pointless, between the strawmaning and personal attacks I think it is best i leave of my own volition before being banned for holding a dissenting opinion.
Monitor note:
canpinter
An alert has been sent to PZ regarding your refusal to cease repeating the same argument. I strongly suggest you either step away or make an honest effort to listen and learn.
If “dangerous situation” is the same thing as “being in public on the same terms a man would be, i.e., out late, drinking if you fucking want to, etc.” then your advice is unacceptable because it amounts to a continuation of social and economic inequality between the genders, canpinter. If you really think men are that dangerous then explain why we shouldn’t just kill you all or lock you up.
And thanks for fucking nothing with your gross fucking not-pology. You failed to apologize for comparing ME to your POSSESSION. You failed.
I understand why you lie to yourself: pretending that “dissenting opinion” is all that makes you unwelcome here is much more pleasant than confronting the reality of your lack of empathy and your fetid stupidity.
That I understand it doesn’t make it any less vile.
You know the Mountain Lion thing reminds me of the difference we have when we consider wild life threat and rape. If both are “dangerous situations” we can mitigate the response should be similar.
A Mountian Liion that harms someone, or even someone’s property is hunted. It is likely to be destroyed with very little debate. Hell we go so far in mitigating this danger that even the chance of it triggers extreme response. A bear knocking over trash cans or damaging property is grounds to call for a population culling.
If we responded the same way bars would have armed sex crimes officers. Frats would be banned. An angry mob would have burnt down the Penn State offices.
Damn, there go my eyes again.
So, how do we recognise these people? Do they have a great scarlet R on the forehead? Are there bumps on the skull a good phrenologist would recognise?
Also, would you like to tell the people who are married to rapists, who are the children or siblings or other relatives of rapists, who are employers, employees, colleagues, friends, customers, acquaintances of rapists, how they’re supposed to avoid them?
Because FUCKING STRANGER RAPE IS THE MINORITY.
(Sorry for the shouting, Horde – that doesn’t include you, canpinter. You deserve to be shouted at for your rape apologetics. Oh, and if you don’t think you’re a rape apologist, damnwell go and look up the meaning of the term.)
Thunderf00t’s core message is to not act like a victim.
A victim however is defined by the act of an external party abusing them.
Being a victim leads to abuse and you are a victim if you are abused.
In short Thundy believes there are classes of people who are weak and deserving of abuse.
PatrickG, IANAM (I am not a monitor), but: nah, not too harsh.
canpinter, you are not holding a ‘dissenting’ opinion, you are holding a wrong opinion. Your idiocy has been addressed by multiple commentators and still you are not even trying to understand what they are saying. Moreover, your exact talking points are not unique, they have been spouted here before by hundreds of your ilk, again and again, and again and again they have been addressed.
Good fucking riddance, asshole. Nobody gives a shit about your uninformed opinions.
canpinter @274:
I was raped, repeatedly, by my scout leader. On official Cub Scout trips. What potentially dangerous situation should I have avoided? Again, this is not a rhetorical question. Please answer.
@277:
Don’t join Cub Scouts? Seriously, what should I have done differently?
@282:
But you ignored me. Strange, that. My question too uncomfortable for you to even approach?
#74: The fact that a rape-apologist would make these arguments does nothing to prove anything about thunderfoot, one way or the other. What Rebecca is doing in the video seems to be “guilt by association”, as in “he says the same as rapist(-apologists) so he must be a rape apologist”.
No, that’s not “guilt by association,” that’s “guilt by similar (if not identical) mindset.” And that’s a perfectly valid form of reasoning when judging a person’s motives, credibility, or trustworthiness.
I faced a predator. A mountain lion, with a cub, that was stalking me. I played the game for real stakes. Had I given off the body language of the victim – of the prey – there is a very real possibility that I wouldn’t be here making this video.
WHAT the FUCK does that even mean? Does Dunderfoot even specify what “the body language of the victim” is, relative to either a cougar with a cub, or a human rapist? Does he have a list, somewhere, of what mannerisms constitute “the body language of the victim?”
This guy is a fucking joke, and his chest-pounding fake-macho “I faced down a fierce predator!!!” routine just makes the whole affair all the more ridiculous. (And why would a cougar stalk him if she had a cub?)
And beneath all those superficial flaws, the fundamental flaw of comparing humans in the civilized world to animals in the wild makes me wonder if Dunderfoot has any real understanding of how real people function.
QFT
Just last night I was talking to someone who told me that when he was a teenager (30 years ago) it had just never occurred to him and his friends that someone who was passed out couldn’t actually consent. It was some years later that he realized in horror, “holy shit my friend is a rapist” because said friend had, at 18, had sex with a friend’s 16-year-old sister while she was unconscious. I find it absolutely mind-boggling that someone could be unaware that unconsciousness = lack of consent, but there are a lot of things I find mind-boggling about what some people believe, so I’m going to accept the idea that some not-totally-evil young men had this terrible misconception about consent.
So which is more likely to be effective? Telling teenagers they should never experiment with alcohol even when they’re around people it should be reasonable to trust (e.g. their brothers’ friends)? Or teaching teenagers that no one is entitled to another person’s body and the default state is No, not Yes, so the lack of no does not mean you have consent? Even if the rapist himself could not have been deterred, if the rest of the social group had a better understanding of consent, one of them might have stepped in and stopped him. and a teenaged girl would not have been raped.
So no, we do not adequately teach people about consent. And no, rapists are not automatically inhuman, unteachable monsters. As a matter of fact, many rapists are highly teachable – as far as I know, people don’t pop out of the womb believing, for example, that women exist for men’s sexual gratification. Denying that we can do anything to prevent rapists from raping is to deny the existence of socialization in general and rape culture in particular.
Just last night I was talking to someone who told me that when he was a teenager (30 years ago) it had just never occurred to him and his friends that someone who was passed out couldn’t actually consent.
Nonsense. Anyone who say “Animal House” would know that. The point is that there have been popular culture/media depictions of the issue and they’re pretty inescapable. You can ignore them, but probably not escape them.
I repeat again about the mountain lion: a mountain lion does not look remotely like a human; thus we are reasonably able to instantly assume it’s a threat when we see one. Saying “look out for mountain lions” is common sense. Saying “look out for humans” is nonsensical, and that’s what thunderfool’s advice boils down to.
@ Marcus Ranum – well, like I said, I find the concept of thinking that way pretty unbelievable. But I also know that this man is now (and has been for some time) a very awesome and feminist person. The story was not offered as an excuse, but as an example of how fucked-up approaches to consent can be. And certainly there are still a shitload of people who don’t seem to see a problem with preying on incapacitated people. Hell, I talked to a guy a few months ago who told a story about getting wasted and waking up in bed with a woman who’d been pursuing him but in whom he had no interest (and with no memory of what had actually happened). He thought it was kind of funny. I asked him if he thought he’d been able to consent, and he said he’d never thought of it that way before. Obviously the gender dynamics are different in that case, but as long as there’s anyone who hears stories like that and doesn’t think they sound rapey, there’s education to be done that could actually help prevent rapes. (As opposed to just telling women ‘don’t ever get drunk’, which is bullshit on a number of levels.)
Thunderfoot’s comment about the Mountain Lion reminds me precisely of comments made by Timothy Treadwell in the film, ‘The Grizzly Man’. Treadwell also said that it was his demeanor and confidence that kept him alive during encounters with the bears.
You know….until they ate him.
The video is very droll, and it’s nice that everyone is getting so worked up about TF, but I highly doubt he’s going to be too fussed about a fringe group of “freethinkers” (at least a few of which probably haven’t bothered to watch the original video before postulating their freely formed thoughts) constructing and then trashing some straw-men.
Why bother. The fuckwitted idjit has nothing cogent to say. Otherwise, he wouldn’t supply fuckwitted ARGUEMENTS, he would supply EVIDENCE, like any competent scientist would. Which does say a lot about his real competence on the subject—NONE.
Amazing how these freethoughts correlate so.
Amazing how MRA fuckwits have free-from-thought ideas….
By the way, it is FREETHOUGHT. Nothing to do with your inane idiotology, which you think means anything without evidence must be considered……
Oh Jebus H Christ on a three-masted unicorn, not another one. Freethought is not the same as free thought. Go look it up.
So, what has everybody overlooked, and why are you so eager to tell us after the thread has been dead for 10 days?