I just wanted to share some fun tweets I got today. I was waiting in the airport, and some loon took offense at my criticisms of Pat Condell, and just had to vent…and managed to flame himself beautifully.
@J77Crazy
@patcondell @pzmyers the clown isn’t worth a response. #PZMyers is an embarrassment to white men everywhere. He is a faux feminist. #dhimmi
To “white men”? He’s a bit concerned with preserving the dignity of the White Race.
@J77Crazy
@pzmyers @patcondell You are disgusting. You represent every self loathing white in the world. You’re disgusting excuse for a white man
Gosh. Was that racist? I think it was.
@J77Crazy
@reggiereggie66 @pzmyers @patcondell anyone who sides with leftist theory, PZMyers BS or any other antiwhite parties are sick in the head.
For not being a racist, Pat Condell sure seems to attract some wild racists.
But — get ready for it — I agreed completely with this!
@J77Crazy
@pzmyers @patcondell calling Pat Condell a racist is like You saying you’re a feminist. #Fail
Yes, #Fail. Booyah!
A few other people commented on his meltdown, prompting, unsurprisingly, the sexist side of Mr @J77Crazy.
@J77Crazy
@DrJaneChi no one cares what you think. That’s why feminists and beta males hate everything. Go get some dick, you look like ya need it
See? Fun!
I should probably just block this guy because he’s evil and stupid, but he keeps coming back with jewels like this:
@J77Crazy
@thedxman @SpokesGay @pzmyers @patcondell no one here mentioned race, just a religion. You ppl are hopeless. Fuck all Whites like all of You
I always get a chuckle from the “dhimmi” thing.
Yes, as the story goes, Muslims supposedly think that all non-Muslims are “dhimmis” to be ruled over and exploited.
Funny: not once has any Muslim ever called me a “dhimmi” (and I suspect it’s the same with PZ). 100% of the people flinging that term around are Christian-supremacists who are upset that we’re not as bigoted as they are.
For anyone who is on twitter, I cannot recommend @DrJaneCh enough. If you are not following her, do it right now.
Sven @ 1
So it’s like ‘beta male’ then? Since I’ve never heard it used except by men who are upset that other men are not as sexist or gender-essentialist as they are.
(I’ve heard ‘dhimmi’ used in a historical context, but I think this is the first time I’ve seen it used referred to a living person or people.)
How helpful for J77Crazy to just let his bigot-sexist flag fly loud and proud. So much easier than if they keep denying the obvious. Nothing left to see here, move along.
I don’t get the whole “dhimmi” thing that these anti-Muslim bigots throw around. From what I read on Wikipedia, the term applies to Christians, Jews, and Sabians (gnostics) who are protected under Sharia law. At the same time that Muslims were granting full rights and privileges to Christians, Christians were murdering Muslims.
Still don’t get the logic of “yeah well YOU’RE A FEMINIST” being an insult.
Rutee Katreya, from the Romeo Rose thread:
It’s nice to learn the code words, I guess.
Tashiliciously Shriked: I think it’s because authoritarians care about what other people think about them; they need to keep up appearances. As a culture, we generally agree that being a bigot is a terrible thing. Therefore people need to spend a lot of effort explaining why their bigotry doesn’t really count.
I wonder if he realises that a lot of “white men” are Muslims.
If he wants a self-loathing white man, he should try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnnIjST3Z78
I’m not going to go looking for it, but I’m kind of surprised the crazy didn’t mention his female, black, muslim friend who agreed with him.
Just a note, “anti-white” is a dumb shortcut for identifying a certain kind of modern-day racist (also allied with so-called “race realists”). They first claim they’re not racist (because they don’t want to kill all black people), then spout the mantra “anti-racist is codeword for anti-white”, then start foaming at the mouth about how all the “non-whites” are commiting “white genocide” by living in “white countries”. Oh and the solution is for “blacks to move to black countries”. There is also whining to the note of “I don’t support interacial marriage” and “genome purity” and “stealing our jobs”. They congregate on YouTube under racist and EDL videos.
It’s amazing that while their stupid knows no bounds, their racism all fits the same template.
That’s tremendously offensive. The correct term is beta mangina.
Is a beta male like a beta version of a man? Presumably an alpha male is therefore a male so full of bugs that they aren’t ready to be released to the public yet…
Becca Stareyes @3
Maybe it’s an European thing, because over here I hear it all the time. In 100% of the cases it is used by racists who don the flag of ‘anti-Islamists’ to disguise their bigotry. Apparently, if you are ‘white’ and even dare to suggest that maybe not every Muslim is a fifth-columnist raving lunatic who wants to violently overthrow the democratically elected governments and impose sharia law, then you are in cahoots with them and thus are a ‘dhimmi’. If you also happen to be a politician then you are also a ‘quisling’ (because wanting equality for a minority of course means exactly the same thing as working together with the Nazi regime during WW2).
Disgusting. Racism is running rampant here, and over the course of the last 15 years it has firmly entered the mainstream. Is suspect a lot of the fans of Condell who crawl out of the woodwork are in fact European, a lot of them spout the same racist talking points of the right-wing parties over here and use the same vocabulary.
Yup, I’ve been called a dhimmi online once or twice, for daring to suggest that Muslims are secularizing pretty fast, and are less of a threat to Western-European secular states than conservative Christians, who have far more political power. It fails as an insult, though, as the term only applies to “believers of the book”. It’s a useful marker for spotting bigotry, though.
Funny how Pat Condell always makes such insightful, courageous, rational, non-racist videos yet he always receives the most infantile, superficial insults from fucktards like PZ.
And never a substantive argument in sight.
@3 Becca: Thanks to Geert Wilders and his groupies I have been familiar with ‘dhimmi’ since ten years or so.
@5Ekwhite: “At the same time that Muslims were granting full rights and privileges to Christians, Christians were murdering Muslims”
That’s the entire islamophobic point. If you are not murdering muslims – or at least advocating something similar – but instead talk about full rights you’re a dhimmi. The idea of “small genocide by means of a nuclear bomb on Afghanistan and/or Iran” is seriously considered in certain corners of the Dutch blogosphere.
Sick and twisted, I know.
@10 Tim: “I wonder if he realises that a lot of “white men” are Muslims.”
I don’t think they count as white to him.
@16 Zenlike: you should check Robert Spencer and the likes to find out. I’m not eager.
“Racism is running rampant here”
Another marker: “No, it’s not racism, because islam is a religion and not a race.”
#18, everybody had Freeze Peach. PC is free to make bigoted and paranoid Islamophobic rants. We are free to mock his paranoid bigotry, and bigotry = racism.
The comment at #18 is yet another data point in favor of my personal belief that there is a strong correlation between being a right-winger and lacking a sense of irony.
I dunno, I’ve never heard it, except in an historic context (since I live in a city here christians and jews did live as dhimmi, it’s kind of relevant).
Maybe it’s a racist douchebag european thing…
@21
Typical PZ-spawned idiot, the fact that I, like Pat Condell, recognize that Islam is the greatest danger to:
-civilized discourse, any criticism of it is met with violent outbursts and death threats
-gender equality
-LGBT rights
-democracy
-science
-education
-human rights
…means that I’m a right-winger.
I don’t know, this bizarre type of irrationality Deen moron exhibits sure looks like an American thing and its dogmatic variant of the morally repugnant and intellectually bankrupt multiculturalism.
Just imagine if UK never allowed muslim immigration:
-no sharia courts and degradation of women
-no female genital mutilation
-no organized islamic youth gangs to beat up gays
-no animal barbarism through halal meat
-no pool time segregation
-no death threats to evolution professors
-no 33% of muslims raised in UK wanting to kill apostates
-no majority of muslims wanting to abolish democracy
And so on. Everything you take for granted is incompatible with islam.
Actually it is Islamophobic bigots who try to shut down mocking of paranoia and idiocy that is the greatest threat to democracy. Freeze Peach doesn’t mean ideas can’t be mocked, and shown to utter and pure bullshit. But you try to stifle our freedom to criticize bad ideas.
@ Igor
More ableism. Classy!
…
[ dhimmi ]
ie:
This idea comes from Umar (Parte Deux, c.717-20), not Mohammad. It was a part of a transparent ploy to increase his tax revenues. Religion is a cool way to raise cash without actually working.
Gee, what a fuckwitted paranoid idjit you are. Sharia courts are used the same way Talmud courts are. When all parties agree with civil disputes and the Crown checks the results. Why are you scared of this? Why are you paranoid?
Nerd of Redhead is a horrible, horrible idiot, enemy to woman’s rights and a traitor to civilization-
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3682/uk-sharia-courts
Pat Condell .. Isn’t that the guy who are for animal rights..;)
Look. I’m not from the UK, and I’ve never been there. But this:
The Muslims have gone too far. How can you sleep at night under such a regime? Insidious.
@ Igor
Fuck, that’s bid’ah not fiqh buddy. All that shit was made up later. Long after Mohammad.
(Give or take a dead cow.)
Gosh, a traitor to civilization. Sounds serious. I guess, whatever the Muslims are doing, that’s not civilization, right?
We just bought a betta male this weekend. He’s a beautiful turquoise color with a tinge of burgandy on his fins. Seems a strange insult if you ask me.
If you want lots of examples of Americans using “dhimmi”, visit Pam Geller’s site, Atlas Shrugs.
Oh, wait, don’t. It’s awful.
Is Igor still looking for a brain?
Here in Britain, we should be worried about dhimmitude. It’s a FACT that the Muslamic population is growing so fast, that by next Wednesday, Britain will be 98% Muslim.
Igor, your paranoid hyperbole sounds like this:
Absolute idjiticy. Islam is no threat to England or the US. Unless, you see conspiracies everywhere, and wear a tin-foil hat.
@ roggg
I think you may have posted to the wrong thread.
At least you make more sense than Igor though!
How can I tell if someone’s an alpha male? From what I’ve seen, they mostly seem to drop Greek letters into incoherent spittle-flecked rants. Are there any other identifying characteristics?
Oi vey! Beta-male. OK, sorry. My bad. (Anything makes more sense than Igor though…)
According to Condell, Obama is a dhimmi
http://dotsub.com/view/6276e5bc-fb75-40a3-8839-7cd687adaca9/viewTranscript/eng
Too many immigrants in the UK according to Pat.
https://twitter.com/patcondell/status/334241201991602176
Psst, guys! Pat Condell is an immigrant – check his wikipedia page.
@ dereksmear
From your linky:
Mwahahahaha. I tried that once. The Brits got rather iffy….
@ Maureen Brian
To give Pat his due, he could have been born in Northern Ireland. That being the case, he couldn’t possibly be a bane of Britain. Not like all those other immigrants, tardigrades and the like…
Maureen Brian
But that would make him opposed to himself. Hmmm… Surely he can’t be using the word “immigrant” as a proxy to something else?
hyerdeath,
How could you imagine such hypocrisy? Hope you’ve got a big box of tissues ready for Igor when he returns.
/snark
Even if I grant that politicized Islam of the fundamentalist stripe is bad for women, LGBT people, etc (and believe me, I do), I’m waiting for two things:
(1) Someone to explain to me how it is more of a threat than its Christian parallel – after all, Islam gets much more press than Christianity does in that regard. Surely there must be some reason for a minority of a minority getting more press than a minority of the majority religion?
(2) How racist ranting against all Muslims, ever, and allegations that they are fifth columnists will help in any way – unless your goal is to decrease the numbers of secularized Muslims who are well integrated into society and to increase the numbers who are angry and isolated.
—
This relates to my views of the hijab. I don’t like it. I don’t like what it represents. But on balance, I’d rather see a woman free to move around in society while wearing a niqab (to use the most extreme example) than her locked inside her home by her male relatives.
I’ve noticed that all kinds of bigots tend to have terms for people who are part of the group they think should be supreme, but disagree with the supremacist cause.
Racists use “white guilt.”
Sexists use “beta.”
Islamophobes use “dhimmi.”
I’m going to call it allegiance-entitlement. They expect me to agree with them because I’m white, or male, or not a Muslim.
Teeheehee: How British is Britain.
“no one here mentioned race”
…squared with…
“Fuck all Whites like all of You”
“antiwhite parties”
“#PZMyers is an embarrassment to white men everywhere.”
“You’re disgusting excuse for a white man”
But I guess it’d be too much to ask for any sort of awareness from a guy like that.
I knew I dislike Pat Condell’s stuff for a long time. Oh, some of his videos were fun at first, but then came the UKIP bullshit. The Muslim crap. The constant repetition of his ever similar and samey rants. I think he pretty much morphed from a comedian to a noise-machine always stuck on the same setting, so I stopped watching quite quickly after having found his stuff.
Frankly, it’s no surprise he’d cultivate a following containing people like that, considering what his show consists of.
MJP: Also “multiculturalism”.
-no death threats to evolution professors
Oh? Because Christians NEVER make threats against those with views they don’t like? Tell it to PZ. Or Dr. Tiller’s family.
-no organized islamic youth gangs to beat up gays
And if we’d never let these Christians into the Americas we wouldn’t have this problem with skinheads running around beating up people for being gay or non-white. Hmm…maybe you do have a point. I’ll agree that all non-native Brits should leave Britain…after all the native Brits now colonizing the Americas go back there. That’s fair, isn’t it?
Well, no, actually it isn’t. Britain colonized India/Pakistan. It intentionally went and sought out these places with scary Islamic people and took them into their own sphere of influence. Sorry, no excuses.
Also, soccer hoodlums. I don’t know, but I have the impression that they’re mostly white Anglo types. Well, maybe the immigrants from southeast Asia will eventually civilize the British Isles. It’s a hard task, but someone has to do it.
No, it comes from chapter 9 verse 29 of the Quran where it’s said that unbelievers must pay the jizya and “feel themselves subdued”, plus Mohammed himself demanded exorbitant tribute from the Jews of Khaybar. (a half of what they earned) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar
Given that he’s regarded as the excellent example of conduct, take that to its logical conclusion.
Obviously it’s not going to “grow to 98% by next Wednesday”, but it is slowly growing. Anyone bringing this up is a “racist”, but I don’t see you guys calling those who cheer the decline of Christianity in the west “racists”.
Can you name a single Muslim majority country where you would like to live in as an open atheist or agnostic? I can’t. I think you’ll notice that even secular Turkey is not entirely secular, especially with Erdogan in charge. The man is an Islamic supremacist and a shame to Ataturk’s legacy.
Perhaps if you weren’t so politically correct and didn’t treat Islam with special kid gloves, (while demonizing Christianity out of all proportion to reality) maybe more Muslims would notice its flaws and leave the religion. Maybe you guys should re-direct your “militant atheism” activism to the religion that causes the most harm in the world. (Tip: It is not Christianity.)
I’m not seeing a whole lot of difference between conservative muslims and conservative christians at this point.
@Maureen Brian
Hmmm, perhaps it’s about time that he was deported.
danieln @ 54, I think you should finish up with getting your arse kicked all over the place in the other thread first. You know, the one where you’ve refused to answer all the refutations of your bullshit, the ones which prove you wrong? Go back, and try to deal with that first, and give honesty a shot. It can work wonders!
Oh and PZ Myers, about Pam Geller, the fact that a Tea Partier (you know, people who are generally anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, anti-prostitution etc.) is more effective at exposing the harmful effects of Islam than “secular progressives” should be a serious stain on the conscience of “secular progressives”.
Seriously, think about it.
Tell us more about how Ophelia said we shouldn’t criticize Sharia law, Danieln.
Pam Geller is so effective at exposing the harms of Islam that she exposes totally fictional harms, like those resulting from building a Muslim community center and madjid a few blocks from Ground Zero. Amazing! I mean really, if she’s that effective, why does she have to make stuff up, eh Danieln?
Talk about own goals.
So danieln, are you still going to address the counterpoints made against the bullshit you spewed about this subject just yesterday in the previous thread? Or are you just going to ignore them like the idiot bigot you are and start spewing exactly the same stuff here all over again?
Must Hate This Much |——| To Ride
Damn Caine, you are too fast (as usual)
danieln,
the fact that Pam Geller, a Tea Partier (you know, people who are generally anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, anti-prostitution etc.) is one of the leaders and heroes of your movement should tell you quite about the movement, of course, you have to be able to bang the two braincells left in your head together for one second to get this insight.
Ther’ve been a lot of relatively serious journalists or politicians commenting on the “failure of multiculturalism” in Europe in the past few years. Looking at problems in France and elsewhere in Europe one can’t but agree sometimes.
But the no. 1 reason multiculturalism fails (when it does) is primarily all the horrible racism and xenophobia present in our wonderful nation states.
@SallyStrange
https://proxy.freethought.online/butterfliesandwheels/2013/03/how-can-we-be-multicultural-if-we-dont-allow-sharia/
And about the Ground Zero Mosque, it’s an insult to the victims of 9/11. I think they have a right to build it, but it’s a bad move and I do not buy into that lie that it’s built for reconciliation. When mosques are built on or near conquered ground it’s to symbolize Islam’s dominance over other religions, not for “reconciliation”. And no, don’t think that they can get away with it on a technicality like “it’s not a mosque but a community center”. And sure it’s not ON Ground Zero, but it’s as close as possible. It was no coincidence.
Racists are to UKIP as flies are to shit. It’s unsurprising if one of them feels it their white British patriotic duty to defend Pat from criticism given he is a fairly prominent supporter.
@danieln:
Oh, for fuck’s sake. When you parrot the tea party nonsense conspiracy theories it’s no longer worth it to give your posts any consideration.
Even those who were Muslim?
Also, note: in the essay you’re quoting, that particular passage you put up there was Ophelia was attempting to paraphrase the views of someone not herself. She summarizes her view of this position in the line just after you ended your quote:
I brand you a liar. A stupid one at that. And my expectation that you would think everyone here is as dumb and lazy as you are is proven correct.
@ danieln
Dude , time to write a book about it then.Please. Don’t hold back.
In the interim, Imma gonna believe historians that actually research this stuff.
We were talking about the meaning of the word “dhimmi”.
Knock it out of the park.
…
@ Jacob Schmidt
Indeed. And these fucked up attitudes crept into both religions long after their charismatic leaders had popped their clogs.
Yeah in other words, the main cause is westerners being “racist” and “xenophobic”.
Notice that you mentioned nothing about Islam having incompatible values with the west, and nothing about the countless jihad attacks all over the world. You want to blame all the world’s problems on the west.
And about the Ground Zero Mosque, it’s an insult to the victims of 9/11.
Excuse me, asshole. Where were you 9/11/01? I was in Bellevue Hospital helping the victims of the attacks, including quite a number of Islamic victims. Your sympathy towards the victims is entirely unwanted, which is good because it’s entirely fake.
I also used to live about 2 blocks from the building being proposed for the “Ground Zero Mosque”. Not that it was ever a mosque. It always was a community center being proposed, not that shitheads like you could understand such subtle distinctions. And, thanks to human shit like you, the community center was never built. Last I heard, the building continues to be used by rats and cockroaches. Congratulations on destroying an attempt to revitalize part of lower Manhattan!
You are an insult to the victims of 9/11. You would have spit on the people who were killed when they were alive. At least have the decency not to use them for your idiotic political points after their deaths.
Liar.
I wonder if the word “Sufi” means anything to Danieln, given that he’s such an expert on Islam.
Muslims? Bah, the island’s been going to hell ever since we let the Romans in. And the less said about those Danes, the better. Damn Continentals.
(Says he, who’s no doubt a “mongrel” blend of every major wave of British immigration from 1950 back to the end of the Ice Age).
BTW: You know who supported the “Ground Zero Mosque”? People who live in lower Manhattan and those who work there. Including survivors of the WTC attacks. How do I know? Because they were standing beside me when we protested the xenophobia that drove the community center away. Know who was in the anti-community center group? Westboro Baptist Church. And a bunch of out of towners. A few people from the outer boroughs. Not Manhattanites. So, and I say this with all due respect, fuck off!
@ Danieln
Oh you fucking liar! The only reason that western philosophy came into being is because Islamic scholars preserved what the West had lost.
Get with the program. Stop lying about our shared history.
the island’s been going to hell ever since we let the Romans in. And the less said about those Danes, the better. Damn Continentals.
I’m telling you, the Picts were a mistake.
@ dianne
Personally, I had already shat myself by the time Normans had conquered southern Italy.
Most of the complaints about Muslims not “assimilating” into European cultures overlook the obvious fact that large numbers of Europeans don’t WANT “those people” to assimilate.
In a comparable situation, I have a relative who always complains about how Hispanics refuse to “assimilate” in the United States. When I point out that they might be more willing to “assimilate” if people weren’t always talking about how Hispanics were such a threat to our country, she kinda just waffles.
“Assimilation” is a process of cultural exchange, not a one way street. But racists and xenophobes aren’t willing to acknowledge that, and so they block the process, and then complain when immigrants are unwilling to “fit in”.
I am so not commenting on that one theophontes.
@Igor Fetir in #23: Awesome response! Show us more how to do “insightful, courageous, rational” arguments instead of “infantile, superficial insults”. You may not consider yourself a right-winger, but your lack of a sense of irony at the very least is quite apparent.
And no, in the UK, just like in the rest of Western Europe, Islam is not the greatest danger to equality. Conservative Christianity is still around, and wants pretty much the same things that fundamentalist Islam wants, but has far more political power there.
Oh, and I’m not American, so if you’re trying to insult me, you’re going to have to try harder.
@ dianne
Often we lose track of the fact that we are all hybrids. Intellectually all the more so. Our greatest western forerunners, the Greeks, were unequivocally, genetically, churned. To say the least.
@Doug Hudson:
Don’t you know that “assimilation” means “act more white?”
Often we lose track of the fact that we are all hybrids.
Decidedly. I hope that as genetic markers come into more common use this whole concept of someone being “pure” whatever will be seen to be as silly as it really is. Race is a useful shortcut for some things, i.e. considering who is at higher risk for certain diseases, but in the end it’s based on a misunderstanding of genetics and population flow. As far as I know, there just aren’t any populations of humans that were ever isolated enough to develop a true “pure” race. Personal example: My father is descended from northern Europeans. All of his ancestors came from the British Isles or Germany/Holland. His Y-chromosome haplotype is a rare variant that maps to…Pakistan.
I’m sure British gays do indeed prefer to be beaten up by hooligans and neo-nazis, instead. And in any case, it’s really just not fair that those furriners are not just taking British jobs, they’re now taking British crimes, too. Only British skinheads should be allowed to beat up gays in Britain. [/distilled bitter sarcasm]
I also find it despicable that Britain’s Head Muslim, Justin Welby, stood up in the House of Lords and made several protracted speaches about how teh gheys should be considered second-class citizens because… “traditional Christian marriage.”
*FLUSH*
*DOUBLE FLUSH*
@ dianne
Indo–European. Scares the shit out of purists when you raise this simple fact. Then add our African heritage.
*head assplodes*
@Doug Hudson:
And what are Muslims to think when confronted with obvious double standards in the name of “assimilation”, such as the demand to ban Muslim schools, supposedly because they “hinder integration”, while not demanding the same for Christian schools? I actually agree that religious schools are a form of self-segregation, and self-segregation is a problem, but if you’re going to allow religious schools in your country, you’re going to have to allow Muslims to have them too – otherwise, you’re not letting them assimilate, you’re excluding them.
The Byzantines also preserved the knowledge of the Greeks and they transferred it to the Islamic world in the first place. You have no case here.
And even if what you say was 100% accurate and the Byzantines never existed, it doesn’t matter. Islam and the west STILL have incompatible values on a wide range of topics such as:
– form of government, Sharia rule isn’t compatible with democracy
– secularism
– citizenship, in the west citizens are equal before the law, in Islam there’s a two-tier citizenship, Muslims and dhimmis
– gender equality, women aren’t equal to men in Islam
– homosexuality
– fornication
– slavery
– etc.
So if you want to insist they share the same values, you’re either deluded or a liar.
@dianne
Oh sure, any time you find something inconvenient just accuse your opponent of exploiting a tragedy.
The fact is that without Islam and its supremacist teachings, 9/11 (as well as thousands of other smaller jihad attacks all over the world) would never have happened.
And if Feisal Rauf is even remotely honest about building bridges with the west, that money could have gone to teaching against not just terrorism, but also things like the doctrine of perpetual warfare against all unbelievers, the dhimma, the gender inequality in Islamic law etc. Islam needs reform, not a community center to stand there close to Ground Zero reminding people each day that Islam lead to the worst terror attack on US soil.
They have a right to build it I’ll give you that, and that’s the closest to me approving this thing as you’ll ever get me. Don’t expect me to like it too.
What’s your excuse for lying about what Ophelia said, asswipe?
@Danieln (92)
How is your list any different from the US government under Christianity?
Only if you can’t tell the difference between race and culture.
There are several things people take for granted in much of western Europe, like say gender equality, personal freedom, secularism or democracy (however imperfect) someone with diametrically opposed values is going to have a hard time there, regardless of race. If you want subjugation of women, theocracy and Sharia, you’re not going to fit in very well.
@danieln (95)
Every time anyone talks about color-blindness or a post-racial society, or about people adapting culture to fit the “norm” it’s always a White European culture that they are saying they should adapt their culture to fit.
Color-blindness is racism.
@SallyStrange
Okay, I re-read that article and given some of her other articles, my apology to Ophelia Benson for misunderstanding what she meant.
She did however expose a problem among many on the left, that they refrain from criticism of Islam because they think Muslims are underprivileged. Given what I’ve seen so far, that’s right. Too many people are forceful on Christianity (sometimes with criticism that isn’t even accurate like “Christianity caused the 1000 years of Dark Ages” and “Columbus would have landed on the moon without Christianity”) and not enough on Islam.
@Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)
Can you elaborate on that a bit more?
Any concerns on whether your obvious bias could have led you to misinterpret other people’s words and writings as horribly wrongly as you did Ophelia Benson’s, stupid person?
And now people are proposing that the West should adopt a two-tier system as well: westerners and people of non-western descent (read: Muslims). And we’re talking about people with actual political clout, people who were actually elected to parliament, whose party can claim a significant number of seats. So tell me, is it really Islam who is the greatest threat to equality, or are we going to eliminate equality ourselves?
Oh I dunno, it could have something to do with the fact that these days I don’t really expect most secular progressives to live up to their ideals and take a firm stance against the unpleasant aspects of the religion of peace.
Yep, those conservative christians sure do spend a lot of time attacking our fundemantal rights… oh, you meant the religious group with a much smaller population and much less political power. My bad.
The RCC preferred monarchies over all other forms of government until most fell in the aftermath of WWI. Over the last century, they grant their support to first, fascist regimes and now, right wing authoritarian regimes. It better reflects their top down organization.
This is not a tradition of any religion but more the realization that religions oppresses people.
Because their never been any christian dominated country that did not discriminate against the non-christian members of their country.
The man is the head of the wife just as Jesus is the head of the church.
Let me tell you about the christian love that people like me get. Come on! I FUCKING DARE you to ask.
Marriage shall be between one man and one woman. Mike Huckabee really like what is known as “covenant marriages”. He must of gotten the idea from sharia courts.
Do I even have to point out the origin of the Southern Baptist Church? It was pro-slavery. And the Confederacy was very religious. (Not that the Union wasn’t)
To be filled in with more bullshit at a later date.
@danieln (98)
I’m talking about stuff like this:
http://thinkprogress.org/media/2013/08/25/2523431/jindal-race-assimilate/
The only culture that people like Governor Jindal seem to approve of is “American” which tends to be White European culture. Racial inequality is because people don’t act white enough seems to be the major argument.
People like Governor Jindal spruce up their words with things like “melting pot” or “color-blindness” but in the end it just looks like they’re complaining about people not acting white.
With all these strong opinions how how New Yorkers should live, I presume danieln is from NYC.
Jindal apparently fully assimilated.
Therefore everyone else can.
Right?
Sure you do. Here in the Netherlands, we have an orthodox Christian party, the SGP, that openly advocates for theocracy, laws based on Biblical principals, and for “traditional” roles for women. They fit in just fine, apparently, as they reliably get elected to parliament every year. In recent years they were even approached by the then right-wing coalition for their swing vote on a number of issues, and in return a proposal to strike our blasphemy law was quietly dropped. No Muslim party has ever even run for parliament in the Netherlands, let alone gotten any seats, never mind getting in a position of influence like that (most Dutch Muslims, in fact, appear to vote for mostly left-leaning secular parties). So if our society can deal with the SGP, I’m sure we can deal with a few orthodox Muslims too.
Oh sure, any time you find something inconvenient just accuse your opponent of exploiting a tragedy.
Sorry, babe, but you were exploiting tragedy. If you hadn’t been I would have simply accused you of having idiotic views. But no, you had to bring up the “ground zero mosque” (which is actually several blocks away and in a completely different neighborhood from the WTC). You put it on the table, your exploitation is now up for criticism.
The fact is that without Islam and its supremacist teachings, 9/11 (as well as thousands of other smaller jihad attacks all over the world) would never have happened.
Without Christianity and its supremacist teaching, Dr. Tiller would likely be alive. The Salem witch trials wouldn’t have occurred. Gays would not be still fighting for equal rights. Enough of my American relatives would be alive that I might have a chance of, well, of knowing who they actually were.
As for 9/11, do you know how al Qaeda came to be? Back in the 1980s, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. That’s one for the evils of Communism IMHO, because I don’t think invading countries that haven’t attacked you is a good ide…oh, oops. Now I’m implying the US policy isn’t perfect. Silly me! Anyway, the US decided to “help” Afghanistan by funding rebels and training them in, well, terrorist tactics. They picked the most radical of the groups fighting the Soviets because they thought that they’d be the easiest to control. So 9/11 would never have happened without the US’s arrogant involvement in other countries’ affairs. It might have been stopped as late as 2000-01 if Bush hadn’t fired all the Arabic translators for the crime of…being gay. So if it weren’t for Christian homophobia, the attacks wouldn’t have happened. It was blowback and bigotry that allowed 9/11 to happen, no matter how much you want to forget that.
#97 danieln
Well, thank the gods that we have fine folks like danieln to tell us the proper proportions for our disapproval.
@Goodbye Enemy Janine
Okay that’s just silly. Western culture is not purely based on Christianity, it’s a mix of humanist and Christian ideas and even the more conservative sides of the west tend to be weak sauce compared to the authoritarianism of Islamic culture. Probably because Christianity never had an elaborate and well defined political system like Islam.
You think abstinence programs are bad? Try flogging and beheading.
What was it that Saint Ronald Reagan said about the Mujahideen?
“These gentlemen are the moral equivalents of America’s founding fathers.”
The war against the USSR is where Osama Bin Laden first made a name for himself and built his power base.
Call it Tears Of Empire.
Why yes, danielh, teens being kicked out of their homes for being gay, lesbian, transsexual or being gender variant is so much more humane then flogging and beheading.
Hey, I may be homeless, hustling on the streets to survive and hated by most of the people walking past me; but at least I am alive, for the moment.
Sorry, assclown, but I am too familiar with the treatment of LGBT youth to be persuaded by your bigoted hand waving.
Also, fuck you!
danielm:
Ever heard of Feudalism? Why should we spend time arguing with someone who is as clueless as you exactly?
Try flogging and beheading.
Beheading and flogging? Are those worse than burning at the stake, hanging, and flogging? All practices extremely consistent with Christianity and, in fact, in common use in places and times when Christians had a political monopoly. Lest you say, “Oh, but that was all in the past”, may I point out Christian Uganda? Where the death penalty was recently proposed for the crime of being gay? I must admit, I don’t know if they plan to use beheading and I suppose if they don’t that’s all ok then.
Oh yeah, good idea. Let the Soviets, the bad guys, expand to a point where they can no longer be stopped. Sorry, something had to be done about them, I wish they would have known, but letting the Soviets roam unchecked was not an option.
You still can’t ignore the religious motive which was pretty important. These are people that want to see the world governed by Sharia. These are people who see the world between the House of Islam and the House of War. The whole “western interference” is more of an excuse really.
Let the Soviets, the bad guys, expand to a point where they can no longer be stopped.
Yeah, those Soviets. They would have taken over the world if we hadn’t…um…stood there and waited until they collapsed from internal strain. Yep, we sure showed them.
They all wore black hats, right?
You still can’t ignore the religious motive which was pretty important.
Not denying that at all. As I said, Reagan chose the most extreme religious rebels to equip and train. Quite intentionally with malice aforethought. He or at least his ministers believed that they would be easier to control than secular rebels who might have scary thought about independence when and if they got their country back.
Wait, wait! The Soviets were not Islamic. So how could they be the bad guys?
@danieln (115)
Awesome, we have another “everything the US does is right” person in the audience.
Go away, no one wants your kind of argument here.
So if Christian ideas can “mix” with humanist ideas, why can’t Islamic ideas mix with humanist ideas?
Christianity never had an elaborate and well defined political system? Christianity has its own nation-state?
The real answer is: history, mostly colonialism.
Whenever someone says stuff like this, I hear, “Shut up you uppity bitches and fags! Be grateful we’re not killing you, just oppressing you in less-lethal ways.”
Thanks ever so much, O Wise White Straight Cis Man! Truly your Western ways are so benevolent.
It must have been very confusing to be in Afghanistan in the 80s, what with all those baddies running around with their various shades of black hats, and nary a white hat in sight.
Do you honestly not see any option between “funding muslim extremists when it suits us; killing them when it doesn’t” and letting the soviets win?
nary a white hat in sight.
Except, of course, when the CIA showed up to give them a brief glimmer of democracy. As in the threat used by Iraqi parents to disobedient children, “If you don’t be good, the democracy will come get you.”
danieln, fuckwitted idjit
Your Dog Whistles are showing us your true identity of a bigot. The only way out is to shut the fuck up.
because the RCC never existed, apparently.
between the nonexistence of the RCC and the Holy Roman Empire and its descendants, and Saint Reagan apparently saving the world from a global soviet takeover, I’m going to assume daniel learned his history from A Beka books.
Jadehawk, it is not like that christians who order A Beka books would be that friendly to Catholics. Well except to teaming up to put a stop to abortions.
SallyStrange @ 121:
Oh, don’t be silly. It’s not as if Christianity and Islam are both Abrahamaic religions and share the same roots or anything…
Wait.
Indeed, when no other suspects are available, Protestant Christians have no problem persecuting Catholics and talking about how evil they are and how awful their theology is.
Oh look, daniel is leaving his diarrhea of the mouth all over another thread! Same old Totally Not Racist preoccupation with Islam, same old Gish Galloping, same convenient and selective blind spots in regards to Teh Glorious West. And still talking to him is lacking bashing your head against a brick wall. Seriously, I have yet to meet an islamophobe that was anywhere near as reasonable and rational as they pretend to be. Just another brand of bigoted, blinkered Troo Skeptics. Just another kind of blinkered fuckwit using their own prejudices and preferences as blinders.
The world looks a lot clearer when you dislodge your head from your own ass, daniel. It will be quite a change, quite an adjustment, but it will be for the better. So much more comfortable too. Well help you pull your head out if you can’t on your own. Just ask.
Dianne:
Nonsense! Why Christians have never gone to war over that or anything, and there certainly isn’t a long bloody history about those particular factions of Christianity…
Wait.
I should remind you that you’ve already used two trigger phrases that tell me to listening to you. Three strikes means…well, it doesn’t mean a whole lot right here, but if you really want to make me believe that you’re actually a thoughtful human being, you’re going about it the wrong way.
But to review: Funding the Islamist extremists in Afghanistan was necessary because the Soviets were even badder guys because…they were atheist? Wait a minute…
You know what would be the absolute worst, you guys?? COMMIE MUSLIMS!
The idea, that muslims are THE bad guys regarding LGBT rights in Great Britain and that so called “western values” are perfectly okidoki in that regard is simply absurd.
Word to the wise: Turing.
Think about what it implies, that this epitomy of “wetstern values” had anty gay laws until so recently as 1967. Loooong after Pat Condell was born it was prosecutable offense to be in gay relationship in UK.
From which point of view, pale-face? It wasn’t the Soviets who plunged my country and all our immediate neighbors into dictatorships which destroyed any hope of social reform in the region for three decades or more. You can take your self-proclaimed right to police the world and shove it.
@everyone, but thanks to Sally Strange, 134:
Yeah, you notice how donating to a Hamas soup kitchen is considered no better or worse than buying cruise missiles for terrorists, but donating to Sinn Fein got a tax deduction and was **totally** different from donating to the IRA?
Uh, soviet expansion wasn’t really a threat to the USA, because there wasn’t going to be a war between nuclear powers that wasn’t solved with nukes. And the Taliban was demonstrably not worse for Afghanistan than the soviets would have been.
There’s also people who want to see Revelations come true; unlike radical Islamists, these people can project international power.
SallyStrange, 134:
You mean, like
Funny, I was actually convinced that it was some very sarcastic form of irony (or maybe vice-versa) just without the necessary smiley, and that you were mistaken. And then, after only a few more comments, I was completely proven wrong, and you right.
Perhaps because I tend not to follow the thunderdome, those names and avatars are unfamiliar to me. Which is likely just as well. Somehow, this discussion quickly went down that path too.
In both Britain and the United States white people are more likely to vote for right wingers than Muslims, if we’re going to deport anyone shouldn’t whites be first?
I’m sure this will be well covered, I’m only halfway through comments, but Danieln @66 you are a lying sack of shit. When you deliberately attempt to throw people a curve around here, don’t include links.
Ophelia was obviously empathizing on a matter that she actually disagrees with, as she stated in her very next sentence (that somehow didn’t make it to your quote): “It comes from a benign place, but it’s not benign itself.”
Excuse me, but who are you, a demonstrated lying bigot, to speak of how the victims of 9/11 would feel? Why would you think you could speak for them, you entitled fuck? What of the Muslim victims? And it would be a big mistake on your part to assume that the rest were as bigoted and ignorant as you are.
Who knew that Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli II was actually a Muslim. I mean if Danieln is right, there is certainly no other explanation for Cuccinelli’s unwavering support for his state’s anti-sodomy law. Still trying to figure out how he got elected as a state Senator in 2004, though, given that the Muslim population in that state is so low. Tricksy Muslimses.
What, like the leadership of Afghanistan between 1978 and 1979? And the leaders and assorted citizenry of about a dozen Soviet republics between 1917 and 1989 (or so)?
*shakes head*
Very interesting, so Soviets could roam around fucking everyone over but you only have a problem with American intervention.
You should see the damage the Soviets did to the Eastern bloc. 40 years of communist dictatorship with gross human rights violations and now those countries are still ridden with poverty and corruption after the overthrow of communist rule.
Plus I wonder what South Korea would be like today without the US. Oh that’s right, like North Korea.
Anyway, I’m definitely not for making any alliances with jihadists, I’m just telling you why they did it. Maybe they should have known better, but they coudln’t just do nothing.
Please stop dwelling on the past and stop implying that somehow the west being imperfect means there’s no difference in the way the west and the Islamic world treat their gay citizens. It is infinitely safer to be gay in the west than in Muslim majority countries.
Magnitude, learn to evaluate it.
danieln @ 97:
Ok, here ya go: Islam is terribly anti-humanist. It’s bad.
It is also not remotely within the realm of vague possibility ever going to be a serious political force in the country I live in.
If a religious person kicks in my teeth for being an atheist, I promise you it will not be a follower of Islam.
It’s all but impossible for an atheist to gain high office in my country. Not because of Islam.
Islam is not informing those in my country who are effectively eliminating abortion.
Why am I harder on Christianity than Islam? Because, you stupid ass, Christianity is a shitload harder on me than Islam is, or was, or ever will be. Once Christianity is done demeaning and reviling me, I’ll quit doing so to it and concentrate more on other faiths. Can you make that happen? If not, shut up about what I should be thinking.
Who gives a flying fuck what an obviously presuppositional and ignorant bigot thinks? Nobody here does.
Assertion without evidence. Dismissed without evidence. Welcome to reality. Which doesn’t favor those who are loud, but ignorant.
The irony of this statement is palpable. Tell me, why anyone should be worried about the theoretical power of a minuscule minority over the very real power of far right Christian groups that have repeatedly wielded against these groups?
Yeah, Islam’s views on homosexuality and women are pretty terrible, but they’re a powerless minority and aren’t likely to become significant any time soon. Fundamentalist Christianity’s views on homosexuality and women may be marginally better although not significantly different, but they have very real political power, and basically own one of the two parties in the U.S. Why exactly should we be more concerned with the powerless group’s terrible views?
And the goalposts have just been thrown across the field.
Yeah, because it’s Muslims that were bullying gay kids to the point of suicide in my home state, not Christians. It was Muslims trying to ban groups that provided emotional support to those same kids, not Christians. Oh, wait…
But you just keep trolling with your hatred and ignorance. It seems to be working great for you.
There was no threat of Soviet expansion into South America. None whatsoever. You’re a complete jackass if you think you can throw around fictional boogeysoviets to justify everything.
Unlikely. North Korea wasn’t going to succeed in militarily occupying South Korea. China didn’t intervene until there were Meriken troops on its border.
For fuck’s sake, you’re basically saying “WE CAN FUCK YOU OVER BECAUSE THE SOVIETS WERE MAYBE GOING TO”. Do you know what that tends to do? Make people angry. Do you even know why the fuck Iranian’s rural population (and a noticable chunk of their urban population) still hates the USA? I’ll give you a hint: It’s not because of their religion. It’s because the USA overthrew a democratically elected leader who was not sufficiently sucking America and American business’ cock. Taht, incidentally, was the ACTUAL cause of most South American imperialism. The number of occasions where the Soviets actually threatened expanding at ALL in South America was 1 (Although it was kind of a major international incident when it looked like it might happen). Didn’t matter. USA still turned it into its fucking backyard.
Yes. Yes you can in fact do nothing. It is not objectively (or even subjectively) better to be a Meriken satellite than it is to be a soviet satellite.
…but it is much, much, MUCH safer to be transgender in Islamic Iran than it is to be transgender in the Christian USA. And equally safe to be gay in Christian Uganda as it is in Islamic Iran. Fuck off, hetero. Queer people are better fucking informed than you about what’s good for us.
Correction: I was right the first time. The carribean is not South America. So no, there were no incidents where the soviets threatened to expand into South America, and precisely one where they might have managed to enter central america… except the latter was with the country they were, so really, it’s none of the USA’s fucking business (And don’t youd are say “BUT THEY’D HAVE NUKES ON OUR HOMELAND”. Yes, they would – and thus, gained parity with us)
*was with the blessings of the country they were entering.
I have, seeing as I lived there for a while. Not worse than what the U.S. did and continues to do to Latin America.
of course they could. would have worked out one hell of a lot better for a couple continents.
Definitely learned history from an A Beka book.
Or, you know, North America.
danieln,
What a fucking obnoxious thing to say.
It’s the truth.
Oh wow! You found 1 Islamic theocracy that got something right on 1 issue (keep in mind that homosexuality is STILL illegal) and that makes them sooooooooo progressive. You still don’t get it, it’s a dictatorship. Your “rights” can be taken away at any time by the whim of the rulers.
Besides, hasn’t it ever occurred to you that the reason they push for this is because they think that will make their society have less gays? You think they do it out of the kindness of their hearts or because they’re socially progressive haha!
And you forgot a few things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran
Not this again, tell us how much % of Christian countries kill or persecute gays vs. Islamic. You have no comparison here, there’s only a handful of Christian countries that still do it vs. almost all Islamic. Of course being the cultural marxist that you are, you have to make all cultures appear equal, with none better or more humane than the other.
Heterophobe.
Don’t act like a supremacist. Just because you’re a minority doesn’t give you a pass to act like an asshole, you don’t call me “hetero”. The equivalent “homo” is considered a slang and so is the short “hetero”.
And a little tip, don’t call others “honkeys” and “McStraighterson”. I mean you can, but that will undermine your pretenses of equal rights and respect.
I’ve seen this term before, exclusively used by right wingers trying to make some point or another. What the fuck does it mean? I’m familiar with academic Marxism, political Marxism, economic Marxism, and so on, but what exactly is “cultural marxism” (and are we dropping the capital M on purpose or is that a typo)?
Oh, and, my previous comment is just idle curiosity–trying to familiarize myself with the dog whistles. Clearly Honkey C. McStraighterson here is beyond help.
Hey Honkey. Fuck off.
The C. stands for Cis, natch.
I only know the term “cultural Marxism” from right-wingers (at least here in Europe it is a relatively common code).
Wikipedia (my emphasis):
You are probably not Christian enough for danieln. Or something like that.
How mature.
Ah, so, in this context, “Marxism” functions much as “fascism” does to the right winger: an empty label signifying nothing more than doubleplus ungood.
Thanks, ali. I figured as much, but it’s good to have confirmation.
Oh dearie me, the bigoted fuckwit thinks I’m immature. I’m devastated, I tell you.
You really expect me to take you seriously about being anti-bigotry when you use racial slurs as well as slurs related to sexual orientation.
Besides, you only assumed I was straight. It’s true yes, but you didn’t know that.
Danieln, what you aren’t getting is that – from the perspective of women’s rights, LGBT rights, and such – there’s no real difference overall between how one Abrahamic religious theocracy is. It’s bad. It might be marginally better here, marginally better there. But overall, it sucks major ass.
That is because the Abrahamic religions, at heart, are viciously sexist and homophobic. The issue is not Islam qua Islam (or Christianity qua Christianity or Judaism qua Judaism) – the issue is theocracy. Those three religions are effectively identical in how they scorn women and in how they demand the eradication (yes, eradication) of LGBT people. The differences in the religions from the perspective of how they treat anyone who isn’t a straight cis man are window-dressing.
Why am I more upset over Christian homophobia and sexism than Muslim? Maybe because I live in a country where people with authority justify my oppression in the name of the Bible, not the Koran. Muslims are a tiny minority of this country. The asshats amongst them that sincerely wish me harm a minority of that minority. I have the luxury of going through my life in this country as if they don’t exist here – they aren’t oppressing me, they don’t have the capability to do so. Christians? Very different story. They are numerous, they are noisy and pushy and in power.
Oh, and I’m noting your insistence that “anti-white racism” [sic] is equivalently bad as anti-PoC racism, that “heterophobia” [sic] is equivalently bad as homophobia, and that “misandry” is as bad as misogyny.
You’re adorable. I’d pinch your cheeks and give you candy if you were a small child. Unfortunately, I suspect that you’re a grown adult.
Considering your bigotry, paranoia, and hatred, you need to be the one to get mature. See all people, including women, LGBT, blacks, browns, etc., as your equal. But then, that requires a working brain that ignores sloganeering.
In a very real sense, the USA is directly responsible for Iran’s time as a dictatorship. fyi: It isn’t a dictatorship now: It’s a theocratic democracy. How misinformed ARE you?
You’ve entirely forgotten that Africa and South America exist in this little rant, haven’t you? Southeast Asia as well… Christians have a better record right now, yes, but not one that justifies this kind of triumphant racism.
Cultural Marxism? Do you mean cultural relativism? Because that’s a thing that actually exists, although I’ve never met someone who actually follows it.
Please, keep demonstrating to the less observant where your priorities lie.
You really think that there is such a thing as racism against white people or homosexism? You’re one clueless motherfucker.
I don’t see women, LGBT, blacks, browns as my equal?
Moron, you know nothing about me then. Where did I say that I don’t view women, LGBT, blacks, browns as my equal? Nowhere, you just pulled that out of your ass.
The fact is that you clearly have no idea what the fuck racism even IS, in a technical sense, i.e., how does this complex sociological phenomenon actually function? The same goes for other bigotries whose biases are encoded into our social structures. It’s obvious that you don’t know, and you also would really prefer not to find out. You would prefer not to find out because it would conflict with your already existing bigotries and possibly call your entire worldview into question. So of course you’re not taking what I or Rutee or anyone else is saying seriously.
There’s a difference between assumption and deduction. If the conversation had not involved the legal and social status of LGBT people in various countries, and if you had not revealed that your appearance of concern about LGBT people was really nothing more than a cudgel with which to beat Islamic peoples about the head, then yes, it would have been sheer assumption to think that you were straight. However, your utter lack of concern for the actual status of LGBT countries in majority-Christian countries (such as the one in which you, an English-speaking Islamophobe, presumably—or should I say deductively—live) is a phenomenon that usually arises from a lack of direct experience with how unpleasant bigoted Christians can make life for queer people. Not to mention those with uteruses, which you also lack. But, as it stands, your own words provided plenty of evidence for me and others to deduce that you are not, in fact, experiencing any of the bigotries which you regard so casually.
There’s no correlation that I can see between content of religious beliefs and ethical behavior. An atheist is just as likely as a Christian or a Muslim or anyone else to be either compassionate and socially aware or selfish and socially malignant. I wasn’t raised in any religion, and so the differences between Christianity and Islam look rather tiny compared to their similarities. I chalk up the relative freedom I enjoy as an atheist woman who’s not interested in traditional gender roles not to Christianity, but to the strict controls that have been imposed on it over the years. I see no reason to think that similar controls can’t be imposed on Islam, given the right conditions. Certainly you’ve given us no convincing reasons to think so.
Anyway, you’ve said your piece. It’s not convincing. Your understanding of history is worse than mine when I was in 9th grade. You don’t know how racism functions. You think “politically correct” is an insult. You see things in simplistic terms of good guys vs. bad guys. You lie with abandon, and pretend stupidity when caught out. Or maybe you are just that dumb. Either way, why should anyone care if you have a negative opinion of them? Your opinion has been shown to be worthless.
White man gets beaten to a pulp by black man for being white.
Black man gets beaten to a pulp by white man for being black.
There you go. To your double standards only one of these two cases consists of racism. Does it make sense? No.
You’re the racist.
I can’t think of any case so don’t try to provoke one. The fact that gay marriage isn’t legal yet is no reason to take our your frustrations on all heterosexuals, many of which support your cause.
Right, because as we have seen, bigots always proudly announce that they are bigots. The only proof you need of a person’s status as a non-bigoted person is his personal assurance that he is not a bigot. It’s not like people ever say one thing and do another, oh no. And certainly, people NEVER harbor unconscious irrational biases which they try to rationalize post hoc!
Sorry, your dog whistles gave you away bigot. I know how to read those dog whistles as I have been at it for forty plus years. You have nothing to contribute to the discussion here other than your sloganeering. Why not just fade into the bandwidth?
Only to a bigot. When one understands the privileges and microaggressions involved in bigotry, which you don’t, it does make sense. You don’t make sense, as you have nothing cogent to say, but keep repeating your inane slogans and dog whistles over and over. You add nothing to the discussion we haven’t heard from a hundred other bigots before.
Hmm let’s see.
White guy beats up a black guy. Cops come, and decline to arrest him, because he’s a “family man” and besides, he was just minding his own business. Not like that black guy, who’s just a common thug. Probably the white guy felt threatened by him. Perfectly justified, no crime.
Black guy beats up a white guy. Cops come, arrest the black guy, and 5 other black guys standing nearby. Probably gang violence, after all. Because everyone knows that those black guys were up to no good, what with them accosting an upstanding citizen and all.
That would be prejudice, since the white man is still more likely by virtue of his whiteness to make more money than the black man, get better medical care, live longer, and get respectful treatment by the police.
That would be racism, since the white man’s act follows in a long line of violent enforcement of white people’s racial privilege. The black man is more likely by virtue of his blackness to not have a job, to make less money if he does have one, to be harassed by police, to be dismissed by his doctor, etc.
The fact that you are too dumb or too stubborn to understand the relatively simple difference between prejudice and prejudice + power does not mean it doesn’t make sense.
You’re a towel!
…and Igor certainly knows a non substantive argument when he writes one!
Only one of them is systematic marginalization, dude. It makes perfect sense if you know where social power lies – and the probable consequences of these actions, which Esteleth laid out in brief.
It’s not possible, you collosal fuckwit.
I’m not – just heteros who think we’re props for their racism, or any other asshattery.
I don’t see women, LGBT, blacks, browns as my equal?
You you inform people like me to embrace western culture (christianity) because it provide rights to me (queer and female) that was never found in the religion because it is so much worse in islamic countries; you show that you do not understand the first thing about our issues.
It also shows that you are dismissive of the harm done to us by this society.The society that you hold in greater esteem than our lives.
You do not need to flat out say that we are not your equals. It shows in the words you have said and in the way you want t treat us.
(Try to answer one simple fucking question, one that you have not bothered to answer. How the fuck does secularism emerges from the bowels of christian theology?)
Fucked up the comic sans blockquote.
The first sentence is by the shitstain on the panties of life.
I don’t see it that way because it’s not true. Western culture as it is today is a combination of humanism and Christian ideas (watered down Christian ideas I would say, for the most part). And your best chance a achieving your cause. What other part of the world is as open as the west? So if you hate the west, you’re shooting yourself in the foot.
It’s not perfect by any means, but there’s no such thing as a perfect culture. That doesn’t mean we can’t say that it’s better or more humane than Islamic culture.
Christianity wasn’t radical enough to prevent the emergence of secularism. The Islamic world had access to Greek culture as well why did it never develop something equivalent to the enlightenment?
I can only think of two cases where secularism has ever gained a foothold in the Islamic world:
– Turkey, due to Ataturk’s firm stance against the political aspects of Islam, although that can be reversed one day with folks like Erdogan in charge
Ataturk was inspired by western writers.
– countries touched by Communism that brutally suppressed all religion (not a viable option, you really don’t want to fight religious persecution with atheistic persecution)
Right because there are no black people anywhere in any positions of power.
Who is the most powerful man in the world again?
Has StevoR been reincarnated?
Oh I see. A handful of PoC gaining power means that there is no racism any more. Despite the fact that white people hold power out of proportion to our numbers. Despite the fact that white people have money, fungible goods, etc, out of proportion to our numbers.
Cultural Marxist is a nonsense term, a term used by European right-wing political parties to tar everyone to the left of them.
danieln, why do you keep insisting that you are not a bigoted racist, since you keep using the exact same vocabulary only used by clearly right-wing racist parties?
danieln using the old ‘the prez is black now, so racism is over’? Jezus fuck, but you are one of the most stupid idiots to show himself for quite some time, and that’s saying a lot.
For minority rights? East Asia is about on par, when you stop getting all misty-eyed over yourself and actually look at the effects.
And for a dude who keeps trying to conflate ‘western countries’, it’s really a very small subset that places a high value on inclusivity, and even they suffer significant backlash against these values. Most western countries are more interested in lip service than they are in action. If you want to say that, on average, they’re doing the best, then yes, but again, it’s not by the lead you seem to imagine it.
They did, you’re just loudly plugging your ears and pretending it didn’t happen.
Your ignorance is not our problem.
It’s bizarre. Do you believe all democratically elected leaders are absolute rulers or something? First you refer to Iran as a ‘dictatorship’, now you’re acting like Obama can change the fabric from which his society is woven.
Bill Gates?
danieln, I want my humanism washed of the taint of christianity. And every other fucking religion.
Also, danieln, I want to to convince me that I should embrace watered down christianity just because it just causes parents to toss their LGBT children out of their homes instead of beheading them.
I fucking dare you!
(Sorry, you are not on my side just because you say so.)
Here’s a real-life example of a white person (me) getting beat up by a black person (which I published before elsewhere):
In high school, I was briefly bullied for being white. It ended when my bully knocked me into a food cart in the lunch room and I got a hole in my scalp that required all of a single stitch to close. He got expelled. I’m not sure what happened to him after that, but what sort of future does a frustrated young black man usually face when he’s kicked out of school?
The only racism involved was the racism of the system (and my ignorant compliance with it) that insured he suffered far worse for his discrimination and prejudice than I ever did.
That’s how these things almost always go. That’s why white people can’t claim that anti-white prejudice and discrimination are racism. Because actual racism is still there, and it’s working in our favor.
Aww. that’s adorable. Danieln thinks that having a black president means that racism is over. He’s so CUTE! Isn’t he just the cutest little social sciences denialist EVER? Yes he IS. Go on, boy, deny those sociology studies! Attaboy!
@189
Well I could easily accuse you of using the same talking points as the far left, so I guess we’re even and we’re never going to trust each other.
Oh and there’s a difference between being racist and not buying into bullshit leftist propaganda, knee jerk sensitivities and divisive double standards. Sorry. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out you identify as Atheist+. You’ve been told countless times, it’s not a case of you’re either with us or against us.
@195
I don’t know, you lost me on that one because I don’t have a lot of sympathy for bullies (at least not violent or repeat bullies), but if standard of expulsion from a school is the same for every student, then I don’t see a problem. That is how I see equality, I’m not a fan of fighting negative discrimination with positive discrimination.
“What sort of future”? He should have thought about that before he attacked someone who did him no harm.
What if the bully was white? Would expelling him be fair because he’s “privileged”? Is that how you think? Or do you think expelling bullies regardless of their race is always an extreme solution?
Or if you think those standards are the same on paper but not fairly applied, well what if the principal is black? What if most teachers are black? Are blacks “privileged” in Atlanta, Detroit or other places where they’re a majority?
And most importantly how do you propose to solve any of this other than uphold the same standards for everyone and tell people to uphold the same standards for everyone?
How is acting like an ass, demonizing white people, blaming them for being “privileged” and calling them “honkeys” going to help, as 2 of FtB’s fans just did with nobody calling them out? This is a disgrace.
@194
You clearly did not understand my point if you think that was it.
Point is the west is more humane to LGBT people than the Islamic world and it’s making plenty of progress to having a society accepting of LGBT. Got it? So might want to be more motivated in defending it. Islam is on the rise in many western nations and has been for decades, now you go think about what that means for the future of LGBT. What’s the point in cheering a decline in Christianity if a far more intolerant religion is going to take its place?
See? It’s Pat Robertson all over again. Ungrateful Negroes don’t properly appreciate how much money plantation owners spent on feeding and housing them!
‘
Yes, if we continue at this rate, we’ll all be living under Sharia by… 2168. Yikes. That’s scary! I’m sorry I accused you of bigotry, Danieln. Clearly your fears of Islamic dominance are totes rational.
Your only points are those of a paranoid pretend-post-bigotry bigot. Which means they are utter and total bullshit.
197
danieln
BUT IT IS.
You don’t get to declare you’re an ally for minorities or LGBT or women, they get to chose their allies. Because they are the ones being harmed. They are the ones that are hurt when supposed allies spout bullshit, fuck up and go with the status quo. Saying you support the law to allow gay marriage doesn’t mean you get to declare yourself an ally, especially not when you turn around and use LGBT people as a talking point in your racist beliefs
Fuck you, asswipe.
You are not my ally. You do not share my beliefs and FUCK YOU for trying to use sexism to justify your racism. Just fuck you for everything you’ve said here, it’s all so fucked up.
Is anyone here pretending not to be ‘far left’? Your comparison falls flat on its face – especially since you’re not actually demonstrating how ‘far left’ is a pejorative, whereas the racist nature of the shit you spew is on display.
Kid, did you not understand the words “Your opinion isn’t relevant”? Because it’s not – I don’t need or want ignorant, arrogant pissants who think they can dictate to me how my rights should progress. You fucks are actually less useful to me than klanners or the most extreme Christian or Muslim.
You’re not very well educated if you think it works that way. Religion doesn’t really cause any of this shit. Whatever iteration of Islam would arise, if you were right, would be one be one reasonably gay friendly and alright with women’s rights – just as it is becoming so with the Christians (Albeit both would have to be dragged there kicking and screaming, they both have extant trains of thought to start with).
If religion were actually the source of these problems, I guess you’d be right, but it ain’t. It’s a vector through which extant bigotry spreads, but not its source.
Oh, we’re still playing “How Stupid Can danieln Go!?” I see.
Oh no, not “the far left”! So, this is basically just daniel admitting that he is a wingnut, right?
Oh and there’s a difference between being racist and not buying into bullshit leftist propaganda, knee jerk sensitivities and divisive double standards
And the difference is that you have a narrow and myopic definition of racism, ergo FUCK YOU LIBRULS!!1!!1
We are well aware of the countless obstructionists and apathists who claim to have found a Middle Ground, from which they can lament BOTH SIDES. No, our contempt for them is not us believing “you’re either with us or against us”. We don’t think that the self-proclaimed moderates who thinks we are JUST AS BAD as the MRA brigade are themselves JUST AS BAD as the MRA brigade! I find falsely attributing someone else with black-and-white thinking to be oddly entertaining. Anyone else get a giggle out of it?
Troo Equality is beating a man to a pulp with a brick, waiting a day, and then starting a perfectly fair and legitimate boxing match with same man. LET FREEDOM RIIIING!
I think this is just reinforcing a general opinion I have had for a while: Anyone who freaks about the word “honkey” and pretends it is a Real Super Serious Racial Slur is:
1. Profoundly disingenuous
2. Incredibly thin-skinned
3. Indescribably fuckwitted.
Because Islam isn’t inherently more homophobic? Because secularism trumps both Christianity and Islam, it is what makes the West more tolerant, and it is something that Christianity clearly attempts to undermine? Because it has already been explained to you that Christian cultures that aren’t as tempered by secularism, and aren’t as wealthy, are just as violent and intolerant as similarly non-secular, non-wealthy Islamic cultures?
But we totally believe that you aren’t racist, danieln. Totally.
@201
LOL, this is actually hilarious. What makes you think you speak for all or most LGBT, women, blacks etc.?
I repeat, there’s a difference between racist, anti-LGBT etc. and being against YOU and your knee jerk sensitivities and suspicious political agenda.
You’re being way too dismissive of the role the religious teachings can play. Certainly it can be exploited for whatever political purposes, OR, you could be dealing with true believers who take its teachings to its logical conclusion. For example 9/11 would never have happened without Islam or at least a belief system that included several ingredients:
– a great reward for putting yourself in harms way to further the belief system (martyrdom)
– an extremely divisive believer vs. unbeliever attitude without the slightest concern for unbeliever life
– blind loyalty and unconditional support to the believers
– ambitions of world domination
(which Islam includes)
People say terrorism is caused solely by “poverty” or “western imperialism”, but Bin Laden was from a rich Saudi family who could have had anything he ever wanted. Only he chose jihad terror. He was just following the imperative to wage warfare against unbelievers.
Still nothing but a paranoid bigoted rant danieln. Remove your fallacious presuppositions and you have nothing cogent to say. Just like any creobot citing biblical evidence, any godbot trying to prove their deity through sophistimaticated theology, etc. Nothing but bullshit if you presuppositions are fallacious. Which they are.
Can you devise a likely scenario where you end up under Sharia law in your lifetime? Nobody has come up that scenario. At best, an abject idjit said that opening a halal restaurant was forcing Sharia law on him. What a pile of inane and non-sequitur drivel.
danieln likes to repeat. danieln does not like to learn or listen. Because danieln is a right-wing blowhard.
Love how this can never be applied to Christianity because reasons. You go, you totally not bigot, you.
Not this shit again, don’t you ever get tired of it?
They’re both homophobic but they have different ways of dealing with it. There’s really no point in arguing with you at this point, go re-read my older posts.
Sodomy under Sharia (that’s all mainstream Sharia, not just Wahhabis or some obscure sect) is punishable by death, while mainstream Christian denominations such as Catholicism (and I gave you links for this you probably skipped them) hesitate to even sanction the execution of murderers.
Same could be asked of you, presuppositional paranoid bigot.
Tell us more about why “far left” and “Atheist+” are bad things, Daniel-san.
Citation needed. The logic you use to prove this is consistently fucking terrible. You never compare apples to apples. It’s always “Islamic dogma vs. Christian practice” or “Islamic extremists vs. Christian mainstream” or “Third world Islamic countries vs. First world Christian countries”. You conveniently never want to weed out the confounding variables.
Quick everyone, turn off the irony meters!
The Torah, the Bible, and the Quran all say the same thing about gay men: kill them. (I don’t think they talk about lesbians very much, eh? But men who lie with men, definitely: death.)
So on what basis do you claim that the difference in treatment arises from the religions themselves, rather than the cultural milieu (and its degree of secularism) in which each religion expresses itself?
No, I specifically compared mainstream Islam’s with mainstream Christianity’s attitude towards homosexuality.
The fact that you’re still asking for citation shows you haven’t bothered to check previous links I gave you.
I linked to Vatican’s site on a page about murder and killing other humans.
http://www.vatican.va/ (can’t be bothered to find that page again, look for it yourself for once)
I linked to a free Sunni manual of Islamic law, Reliance of the Traveler, approved by Al-Azhar University. http://www.shafiifiqh.com/maktabah/relianceoftraveller.pdf (I also recommend that you read what it says about jihad)
Christianity and Islam aren’t limited to a literal understanding of their holy books. You knew that right?
OK, so you admit that it’s not Christianity that makes Christian-majority nations generally less overtly hostile to women and LGBT people then?
Actually, they are for the fundies of each sect. You are so dishonest you can’t admit the Xian bigots exist, and use the babble to justify their bigotry. Typical of your paranoid bigotry..;.
For everyone in the audience who has no idea what the fuckwit is blathering about, apparently in the other thread he made an ass of himself in, he linked to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Which means, no Daniel, you are now specifically comparing an Islamic document written in the 14th century with the Catholic catechism written in the fucking 1980’s! In order to pretend that Catholic dogma is so progressive or what-not. Seriously. Here’s the first Catholic catechism, written in the 16th century:
Oh look, apparently 16th century Catholics didn’t have nearly as many mealy-mouthed caveats for their support of the death penalty as modern day Catholics. WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK!?
And yet that only seems to come into play when it benefits Christianity. When it comes to criticizing Islamic “barbarism”, literalism is honky-dory. Hmmm….
The shittain on the panties of life sez:
Which is why US fundamentalists are not at all excited by Russia’s anti-LGBT laws and Uganda’s “Kill The Gays” bill. And why people like Scott Lively never bothered to reach out to organizations in both countries
We queer people in the US and other western countries should just be happy that we are not in Russia, Uganda and muslim countries. The ill treatment we have is but a small price to pay for our relative safety. Just like nome of us should be concerned about homeless LGBT teens, killed out of their homes by their christian parents.
I like how transparently disingenuous danieln’s concern for gay people is. To him, they are just a bludgeon to beat Muslims with. Nothing more, nothing less. He doesn’t actually care. Doesn’t have a sympathetic bone in his body. It’s all about hate and finding excuses to hate. Standard right-winger.
Yeah, Janine. Complaining about stuff that happens to YOU instead of complaining about stuff that happens to people like you who live in other countries? You ungrateful uppity so-and-so! Clearly you don’t care about the people like you who live in other countries. Clearly.
Huh. Come to think of it, danieln is basically giving us a shiny new “Dear Muslima”, isn’t he?
Apparently regressives never tire of this tactic.
I just realized that I left a very telling typo.
I think I noticed the same one.
so Christianity, which is responsible for genocide on multiple continents way back when it was in charge, is “weak” and can be secularized and mixed with humanism. But Islam can’t, because reasons. And “mainstream” Christianity is stuff written in the 1980’s, but “mainstream” Islam is from the 14th century.
Yeah, no.
The Abrahamic religions are equally homophobic and sexist, and at the same time they’re equally capable of being mixed with humanism and secularism. Which is how you get this on the one hand, and this on the other. And the latter is largely a U.S.-exported problem, since it’s U.S. missionaries that spread these violent, literalist versions of Christianity to the rest of the world. Which brings us to the inconvenient (to rabid right-wingers) fact that the biggest religious problem in the world at the moment is one of the richest and decidedly most militarily powerful countries in the world falling into the hands of Christian Dominionists, and spreading their toxic shit all over the world unhindered by anyone, often even under the guise of charity.
And on a separate note: one of the ways you can tell daniel isn’t a member of gender and sexual minorities is that he can make statements like these, which make it look as gay marriage bans are the only thing that stands between GSM folks and equality:
P.S.: “heterophobia”, lol.
danieln:
Please, point to one thing I said that is a talking point of the ‘far left’. Small hint, I mean really far-left’, and not ‘everyone to the left of the KKK’.
On the rebound, I can point to multiple things you have said, like the word ‘cultural marxism’ that are only used by political parties on the far-right.
An Islamic document that Al-Azhar University in Cairo fully endorses as being in line with Islamic theology. If they were reformers don’t you think they would repudiate its more problematic aspects?
Actually Dawkins was way to soft on her. OH NOES! Someone asked for coffee in an elevator! I mean it’s not that it’s a small issue, it’s a NON-issue.
It’s been shown many times that Islam is particularly resilient to that. It’s doable, but extremely hard and even in secular Turkey you can see Islamic fanatics like Erdogan slowly chipping away at secularism and protesters brutalized in the streets for protesting Sharia-inspired policies.
Danieln, still showing us your extreme paranoia and bigotry. Not one rational thought being presented. Just you tin-foil-hat fuckwittery.
@Danieln #227
So it won’t be to difficult to provide one or two links or sources for this claim (that are not some op-ed of someone who simply shares your paranoia but real social science research), right? You certainly understand that I am not willing to take just your word for it.
P.S.: Please don’t forget that your claim is a relative one (“particularly resilient”), when presenting your evidence.
@danieln:
The only difference between extremist Islam and extremist Christianity is that the former has a lot of theocracies bolstering it.
You cannot, honestly, state that Christians wouldn’t instill the same kind of theocratic laws in countries that they’re allowed to. If you do, you’re ignorant and bigoted.
has it? show me. Show me, in a comparison that eliminates as many external variables as possible, that Islam is more resistant to secularisation than Christianity. Because the evidence I see shows something else: namely that the Abrahamic religions behave the same when placed in the same socioeconomic and cultural space. The only real difference is between the expansionist and isolationist flavors, and that’s not a line that separates Christianity from Islam.
explain how this is not an accurate description of the behavior of Christian Fundies in the U.S.
Maybe danieln is Richard Dawkins.
The shitstain on the panties of life sez:
One could see why the shitstain would call it a non-issue. He does not have to deal with it so it does not concern him. And he is happy to tell us so. Just like we queer folks should embrace this civilization of watered down christianity because it is not islamic society.
Yes, Watson deserved to be lambasted for saying “Guys, don’t do that.”. You have earned your BraveHero points.
Hah! So now danieln wants to be stupid and unsympathetic about Elevatorgate too! Brilliant work, old chap!
What is there to be sympathetic to?
And with #235, the shitstain explains all.
This is getting awfully tedious. Can a monitor let PZ know how much racist claptrap danieln is spewing?
I already addressed that and the fact that you keep repeating something I didn’t say shows you’re acting in bad faith.
“You clearly did not understand my point if you think that was it.
Point is the west is more humane to LGBT people than the Islamic world and it’s making plenty of progress to having a society accepting of LGBT. Got it? So might want to be more motivated in defending it. Islam is on the rise in many western nations and has been for decades, now you go think about what that means for the future of LGBT. What’s the point in cheering a decline in Christianity if a far more intolerant religion is going to take its place?”
Esteleth says it is getting tedious and right on cue, danieln smugly decides to repeat yet another of his own statements. Indeed, this chew toy doesn’t have enough squeak.
Also: Just fyi, PZ has already warned danieln with the following:
And danieln immediately responded with:
We are dealing with a real winner, you guys.
@danieln, 238:
The society or the progress? Because that’s the first place where your argument is confused: I don’t have to defend the first to defend the second.
The second place your argument is confused is the idea that it is defense of the latter to deny immigration status on the basis of religion.
I understand exactly what you said, shitstain. Guess what, I do not feel the need to defend this society just because it is sightly less toxic to LGBT people than islam.
What you are using is a silencing tactic. You do not care about the plight of LGBT people, period. You just like to use the mistreatment of LGBT people under islamic theology to condemn them. Easier then noticing what is happening in Uganda and Russia and their western supporters. Easier then paying attention to the fact that teens are make homeless in land where we have “weakened” christianity.
You are a fucking bigot and an apologist for appalling behavior.
Actually you know nothing about me. I cared about LGBT issues before I ever cared about the problems caused by Islam.
@danieln
Are you trying to get hit by the banhammer before providing the evidence?
If has “been shown many times” (and I must assume from your conviction you are very familiar with this research) why do you prefer opening up new fronts, repeating unfalsifiable arguments and quoting yourself instead of using the opportunity to back up your claims?
I’m still waiting (and so does probably Jadehawk).
Sorry, shitstain, but I find this hard to believe. I just see some bigot telling me to defend a society that actively harms people like me.
Fuck you, straight white man.
This is what assholes always say when people start to notice that they’re assholes.
well, I’m off to shield innocent patients from being harassed by Teh Ebil Moosl… oh wait, no, it’s Christians that are trying to block the entrances to a medical establishment.
Russia is different how now?
Did Honkey C. McStraighterson get banned yet?
Aye [Link].