I see where Thunderf00t gets his name: he puts his foot in it hard. And that’s unfortunate, because before building up his credibility in in his new digs here at freethoughtblogs, he’s launched into an embarrassingly clueless defense of his privilege to chew on women’s legs.
I’m tempted to tear every sentence apart, but the structure of his post his so flimsy I’ll just knock out a few of the rickety bits.
Now first let me say from a strategically point of view sexual harassment at conferences really is a non-issue
And then he tells us the conference scene is unimportant because, for instance, the youtube and blog scene is much, much bigger.
He is incorrect. From Thunderf00t’s point of view it is a non-issue. From a strategic point of view, the position that we want the atheist/skeptic movement to grow and include more diversity, it’s a major problem that must be addressed.
This has never been about TAM, either. The argument encompasses meetings, but also the larger geek and atheist culture, which turns out to be pretty damned sexist. You do not correct the broader problem by turning a blind eye to the specifics; it doesn’t work to say that you reject misogyny, but oh, that meeting there? It’s OK if you hit on women there. It’s OK if you abuse women in a bar; bars are free-range markets for men to exercise their will.
Further a female friend of mine who repeatedly attends many such events has informed me that the most recent TAM was the best ever in this fashion.
I’m sorry, Thunderf00t, but with that you demonstrate that you’ve completely missed the point.
It’s an anecdote. So?
But also, it’s one that everyone involved in this fracas agrees with. This and many other blogs have enthusiastically supported TAM over the years, I have specifically pointed to TAM as a model conference for getting a more diverse audience, and Skepchick has been raising money to send more women to it. We’ve pointed to their anti-harassment policies last year as a good thing, we’ve applauded the balance of speakers, we’ve actually said nothing but good things about the meeting.
Until this year, when DJ Grothe screwed up bigtime. He announced that the attendance of women was down this year, and blamed it on individuals and blogs who had actively promoted the improvements in the conference. Then, denying that sexual harassment ever occurred at TAM (it has, as has been amply demonstrated) and dragging his feet over doing anything to continue the formerly good policies made it clear: he’s not interested in supporting women’s issues after all.
That’s what has people disgusted with the meeting this year: the management seems determined to unravel all the good will that has built up over the years, because rather than dealing with a common problem in this culture, they’ve decided to pretend the problem doesn’t exist. As Thunderf00t has.
The level of the warning suggests the issue is far more problematic than it is in reality.
Thunderf00t does not get to determine how other people respond to threats; only the threatened people get that option. And his solution, which is to ignore all threats except the ones where you get to bring in the FBI and have them arrest someone, is so laughably black-and-white that it suggests he is entirely oblivious to the situation.
For instance, I had multiple, daily death threats from a well-known internet troll, Dennis Markuze, for over a decade. The intensity of his obsession made it clear that there was a serious problem here, as did the escalating intensity of his behavior. I reported this guy to the local police, the FBI, the RCMP, and the Montreal city police…who did nothing. Nothing at all. It was only last year that his local police finally took him in for much needed treatment.
So often the FBI solution is no solution at all. And I’m saying that as a man — the first response women get when they try to bring in authorities to deal with harassment is doubt and denial.
But also, I know that Thunderf00t does not call the police every time someone says something rude, stupid, or threatening to him: there are other responses besides lying down and pretending it didn’t happen.
You can point and laugh.
You can block them, if it’s on the internet.
You can refuse to associate with them in real life.
You can ask friends to back you up.
If it’s a conference that you suspect will be full of assholes, you can turn down invitations to attend.
You can try to change the culture that tolerates such abuse, if you’re ambitious.
These are perfectly reasonable, rational responses. They are better responses than bluntly dichotomizing every situation into do-nothing vs. “drag their legally beaten carcass around the walls of Troy”.
The VAST majority of people at these conferences are civil, honest, respectable folks.
Nobody has said anything different, and in actual fact we’ve said that TAM tends to be better than your average crowd of random human beings.
But here’s the thing. The instances of harassment are rare and usually (not always) effectively dealt with…but there’s a massive culture of internet bravos who want to diminish and demean the concerns. There is an attitude that women are there not as colleagues and respected partners in the goals of the movement, but as eye candy and sex toys, so please please please don’t you dare suppress my right to hit on women all I want!
Unfortunately, Thunderf00t expresses that same sense of privilege.
Giving people a list of things they are and are not allowed to do in the bars in the evenings gives the impression that this is not a conference for grown-ups but an expensive and repressive day/night care where your every action will be vigilantly vetted for dis-approval by the conference organizers. Put simply this sort of thing is a killjoy for the civil, honest respectable majority. If I want to chew on some womans leg in a bar, I don’t want to have to consult the conference handbook to see if this classes as acceptable behavior!
The people who have been arguing for better harassment policies are not killjoys — you apparently don’t know Rebecca Watson or Greta Christina very well if you think that they aren’t enthusiastic participants in the bar and party scene.
If you want to chew on some woman’s leg, no, you don’t have to consult the conference handbook.
You have to fucking consult the woman.
That’s the message. Not that you will be policed by a mob of impersonal killjoys, but that you damn well better appreciate that that woman is a person who has just as much right to be there and to demand some respect for herself as you do. And that if you fondle someone because you think you have that right, there will be people who have the back of your target and who will tell you NO you don’t get to dictate to that person how she will participate in your games.
If she wants you to nibble on her leg, or she wants to nibble on yours, fine, have fun.
But let’s be clear on this: the women at a conference are not your buffet.
Cristina Rad does it right. She asks if something were an instance of sexual harassment. In this case, a companion was nagged with requests to participate in sexual activity until she felt she had to move away to escape it.
Yes, that is sexual harassment. Undeniably so.
But here’s the contrast with Thunderf00t’s argument. He seems to think it’s either something you ignore, or something you call the FBI to handle. I think every rational person would agree that no, you don’t call in the FBI or the local police to handle a nuisance hitting on you at a bar. But that doesn’t mean it’s something that should be encouraged or tolerated — no means no. It would be nice if conferences encouraged intermediate levels of reaction, somewhere between “Bye, I’m not attending this event” and “Boom, I’m calling in a swat team.”
This attitude that if a situation doesn’t require the police to beat on someone, it should be tolerated, is exactly the kind of position that creates a safe space for pick-up artists and their ilk — they’re given the latitude to push right up to the point the nightsticks are hauled out.
Christ, is FtB trying to breed it’s own slimepit or something?
I know there’s not a mission statement, but it’d be nice if there were standards.
Like, say, not captioning an image with “The screaming ones always taste better!”
Or starting a fucking post with a sexist captioned image WITH IT’S OWN SEXIST CAPTION.
There also seems to be this odd idea that just because the atheist/sceptic scene is not as sexist as some other communities that means there is not a problem and there is no need to do anything about it. For some reason Thunderfoot thinks that the best way to measure standards is to compare yourself to the lowest possible standard and declare yourself a winner if you are not quite that bad.
Well fuck that. What about trying to make the atheist/sceptic community a model in how to make a community inclusive and welcoming ? How about taking some pride in being the best we can ? It would be good for the community, even if it does not mean we loose some of the more backward members of it.
Well, Thunderfoot is off to a roaring start at FTB. I was honestly looking forward to following his blog, but that post shows just an amazing lack of comprehension and empathy.
The only thing sadder than a person battling strawmen is a person battling strawmen and losing.
I know you and Ed want FtB to be diverse, but is there really room for an idiot quota?
I also note that the denizens of the slimpit are out in force to voice their support for Thunderfoot.
Does he know that their support is not the type a decent moral person would be wanting ?
Of people who have watched a few of his videos, surprised are?
…
*crickets*
…
*tumbleweed*
I’m assuming that when they decided to invite Thunderfoot they were unaware that the first thing he was going to go was dig a hole using the biggest fucking excavator around.
In recent weeks, Chris Hallquist, Justin Griffiths and now, Thunderfoot have opened the doors wide and welcomed the slimepitters in. And the slimepitters have mucked in with relish. Even justicar has made an appearance whining that the term slimepit is a reference to Abby Smith’s vagina – you have to see it to believe it. So FTB itself has a contingent of clueless dudebro bloggers and yet is still a censorious and politically correct hivemind?
Fuckin’ agreement, how does it work?
Well, see, that’s the only important thing.
But Thunderd0uche is a d00d! And the complainers in this case are hindered by their fluffy illogical pink ladybrainz.
But, PZ, you’re a man, i.e. a real person, so your safety and your right to not be harassed is sacrosanct. Chicks? Not so much. Because…
The libertarian response, folks. WHATEVAAAH, I DO WHAT I WAAAAANT!!!
Grimalkin, IMHFO someone with Thunderfart’s animus toward Muslims — not against Islam, but against Muslims themselves — shouldn’t have been invited here in the first place.
Not getting it, or not wanting to get it? I’m trying to battle my inner cynic on this one; but losing.
<meta>
Also: nested comments. Ugh!
</meta>
Unfortunately I’ve always found his talks with creationists to be much better then his steps into social commentary. This is about what I expected when he spoke up on the subject.
This seems to all boil down to the last quoted bit: He doesn’t want people telling him what to do, so he’s downplaying and misrepresenting the entire situation in order to insist that there’s no reason for anyone to place any restrictions on him. Not a great way to introduce yourself.
Plus, Thunderf00t is one of the most virulent and often irrationally anti-Muslim atheists out there. I’m sure he’s mentioned the Islamic oppression of women in a negative way, but posts like this one make me wonder if he actually cares about the oppression of Muslim women, or if it is simply a convenient bludgeon?
The good news is that Justin would seem to have realised his mistake. To what extent that is the case, indeed if that is the case at all, awaits his promised follow-up post but it looks hopeful.
>>Does he know that their support is not the type a decent moral person would be wanting ?<<
He's a youtube vlogger. The slimepitters wont appear any different from his normal bunch of commenters.
I’m not sure it matters very much.
What? Who in their right mind sees the word “slimepit” and thinks “vagina”? If we called it “dungheap”, would they be speculating that it’s a reference to their penises?
Their associations are terribly revealing, I think.
Well that’s the thing. They are not in their right mind.
What pretty much everybody else said. Saw this coming a MILE away. Although I’ll say one thing.
“The level of the warning suggests the issue is far more problematic than it is in reality.”
The one “point” that critics have on this situation, is that I do think it is a common mental shortcut to link the moralism (what people are calling “being dogmatic”) inherent in an argument to either the badness level of what is going on and/or the extremeness of what one’s intended solution is.
That is, that talking about harassment in very moralistic tones (as has been done, and rightfully so) may and will give people the impression that the problem is a lot worse than it actually is, or that what is desired is a standard that is extreme. And thus, you get the RAAAAGGGEEE. Of course, if you then read a bit more you see that no, the problem isn’t that bad, but that doesn’t mean that when it happens it’s not morally unacceptable and the solutions are fairly pedestrian. But, by that point people are already pissed and seeing into it what they want to see.
It’s a bit of an unavoidable car wreck, really.
»I’m sure he’s mentioned the Islamic oppression of women in a negative way, but posts like this one make me wonder if he actually cares about the oppression of Muslim women, or if it is simply a convenient bludgeon?«
» wonder
Who will we be getting next?
Goats On Fire!, with David Mabus.
Leica Rangefinders, with John Kwok.
The Intersection.
Sorry, that last one was going too far.
Shorter Thunderfoot, “How about you go get me a drink sweetheart, I’ll be there once me and the boys are finished talking. Anyone gives you a hard time you just let us know.”
Nope, no problem there. Not one lil bit. Welcome to ftb douchebag.
(Damn phone.)
“Wonder”? Why?
The answer seems pretty obvious. Women are nothing more than a means to an end.
I’ve always wondered what would happen if one of the dude brigade got hit on by a large buff lather dady who treated them the way they treat women? My guess is that they would scream, complain and demand something be done about him Now! If they got blown off by conference organizers the way women so often are they wouldn’t nearly complain but threaten legal action and generally through a major tantrum.
I saw Thunderfoot’s post and thought, PZ will have something to say about this, and I am not disappointed.
I fully agree with everything you said, but I would like to add a further point.
Thunderfoot says that the conference going aspect of our community is vastly smaller than the online community and that therefore it’s of much less importance and thus any issues of sexism there are less important (to the movement as a whole).
I think that this is nonsense, but even if it were not nonsense, WE HAVE A MASSIVE PROBLEM OF SEXIST TROLLS IN OUR ON-LINE COMMUNITY.
Just look at any comment thread on any video or blog post that comes even close to talking about feminist issues or even just features a female star/author and it wont take long to find people saying the most vile and stupid things in an attempt to silence anyone from talking about feminist issues or simply just trying to silence women from speaking at all.
Now there is the well known phenomenon of ‘arseholes on the internets’ and a small minority can make itself appear much bigger online as arseholes from around the world can easily all get together and unite in arseholery.
Now this is an issue that needs tackling, but we are not going to be able to make the internets free of arseholery any time soon.
Which is why it’s even more important that we can say, “ok there are arseholes online, but if you come to our conferences and meet us for real you will be safe and any arseholes will be dealt with quickly and competently, even if they are a bigwig speaker. We take this seriously.”
We need to make it clear everywhere that sexism is not tolerated or acceptable, and given how hard it is to clean up the internets, we have to make extra sure that our events in the real world are extra extra safe and secure and publicise that fact.
We need to make it clear that wherever you are, dealing with discrimination, bigotry, and just plain stupidity is important to us.
I had a couple good year rummaging around Pharyngula. I think it’s time to find a science blog on biology. This blog has changed it’s focus.
X-posted from TET:
Ah Thunderfoot. I enjoyed his creationist series, and I loved his science videos, and I largely ignored his Islamic ones. Head in the sand, who me? But fuck me with a platypus, that post was pig ignorant bollocks with a side helping of carbonated pisswater. Now I see that he’s just another privilege blinded asshole who’s going full tilt for a mansplainin’ world record.
Go Tfoot, Go! You can do it, you can out slime the pitters. All you have to do is want it bad enough and the universe will surely hand you the Golden Turd of Crypto-Mysogyny on a rotting platter of unevidenced opinions, you fucking ignorant douchtoque.
“The level of the warning suggests the issue is far more problematic than it is in reality.”
Well, only a small portion of the population actually murders their fellow human beings, it’s just not all that prevalent for most people in civilized places (which America is not), but that doesn’t mean we don’t have laws against that sort of thing. Written down no less!
I had a couple good year rummaging around Pharyngula. I think it’s time to find a science blog on biology. This blog has changed it’s focus.
Don’t let the door hit you on your stupid, whiny, selfish ass, scumbag.
Nobody will miss you.
Maybe, maybe, it’s just a very deliberate but desperate attempt at deflecting accusations of sexism back against the feminists in order to derail. Still, interesting associative thinking at play there.
Well, it’s kind of convenient, really. With the ever growing number of freethoughtblogs and the increasingly inadequate layout of the ftb start page, it is good to know which blogs to safely skip over in the future to save time (unless I feel seriously masochist).
Cross-posted from the Thunderfoot thread:
This is … erm … ‘interesting’. The accompanying video for TF’s You Tube audience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPfX2tMoPic
Starts off with a brief preamble, launches into a long “Dear Muslima…”, and finishes with a Catholic-esque “Everybody else does it”. And along the way manages to use variants of the word “trivial” three times in three minutes.
Classy. Not.
Pat Condell would make a lovely addition, don’t you think?
Hey, if ya find a good one, please do share. I mean, I don’t know about you, but I’m fully capable of reading more than just one blog regularly in a short span, so I’d be happy to add it to my normal schedule if it’s up to par.
“The level of the warning suggests the issue is far more problematic than it is in reality.”
And yet T-footie goes on and on and on about the “Islamist threat” that is clearly not a pressing issue that directly affects the vast majority of us, including him. It is much worse in the Middle East, and not really at all a thing that affects Brits or North Americans or most of the West generally. I mean, there are issues, but they are statistically insignificant to the point of near nonexistence. Muslims are only a tiny tiny tiny minority in the West, and the extremist Muslims are a small minority within a small minority.
But he goes on and on and on, dogmatically attacking Muslims for a tiny problem. I mean, I know Muslims and they’re cool. And I don’t know anyone who was blown up or had their head cut off by a Muslim terrorist, so clearly T-footie is being delusional and hysterical about a problem that based on my personal experience isn’t much of a problem at all!
Wow, PZ, I’m impressed.
You got so many comments during Crackergate, some of them are still being released from the spamtrap four years later.
First, “chew on some womans [sic] leg in a bar”? Where the fuck did that come from? If some random guy in a bar started chewing on my leg, I would smack him and call the cops. That’s the kind of behavior that you shouldn’t NEED a handbook to know you can’t just do it whenever and to whomever you please. Why would you bring up what is an obviously inappropriate action and then say you don’t want to have to figure out if it’s acceptable or not? And please tell me everyone knows that everyone knows that people can’t just start chewing on women’s legs in bars without checking it out with the woman first. And if we do all know this, then what’s the problem? It’s not sexual harassment if a guy asks a woman if he can chew on her leg and she says yes, and I don’t think anyone is trying to say otherwise.
Second, why do some people feel the need to make statements like this when they stop reading a blog? I’ve stopped reading all manner of of blogs/web comics/etc because they are no longer of interest to me, and not once have I left a message like this.
Much of the time, I’m not in agreement with the extent to which this blog takes feminist philosophy. This is not one of those times.
That ‘chew on some woman’s leg’ remark made me cringe, and I’m practically a Bro. Such a shame to see Tfoot producing such tripe.
I read Tfoot’s post and subsequently awoke in an intensive care unit.
Apparently, violating many known laws of physics, my palm had risen to my face at above light speed and collided with a force of a googleplex of branes colliding with Graham’s number of other branes. This resulted in the destruction of the universe. Happily, or perhaps unhappily depending on your point of view, the collision also resulted in the creation of this universe with the appearance of age and identical properties to the previous one.
So well done Thunderfoot, you’ve made the creationists right by causing me to facepalm so hard I violated causality, casualty and indeed, a causus belli. Good start!
Louis
No point in flouncing dramatically unless folks see you do it.
A3kron: click the “science” tag at the end of the post (or read the Sb version of Pharyngula and do likewise) and never see nasty feminists again.
Philipranger: Well, if it bothers you my advice to A3kron above might be of use. Shoot me for asking this, but the extent of the feminism here is “women are people and should be treated as such” as far as I can tell, what are you seeing?
Louis
The “chew on some woman’s leg” comment made me think of the Bloodhound Gang song “A lap dance is always better when the stripper is crying” (which includes the darling line “I find it such a thrill when she grinds me against her will”).
There’s no universe in which that even borders on territory that’s next door to possibly being right. Just making me think of that song is a capital crime, and now I have shared it with you all. A pain shared is a pain…erm…halved, right?
Louis
Ya know, misogyny doesn’t begin and end with sexual harassment, it’s just a very visible symptom. And if an organization refuses to deal with sexual harassment, they’re unlikely to try and deal with the less visible aspects of the problem. So, while Thunderf00t(1) may think sexual harassment is a problem for only a few women, misogyny is a problem for us all.
(1)and I don’t really agree with his “small problem” assessment.
If women stop going to these conferences will men stop going, too, since there will be no one to hit on?
(assuming straightness for everyone, of course)
I have a random musing about anecdotal data.
Let’s say that we change it from sexual harassment to murder.
We’re saying that we have a problem with murder in the city, and people are reluctant to move here be because of it. We cite a couple people we know who were murdered, as anecdotal data.
These other people are coming in and saying, “No, there’s no problem with murder in the city. I know all kinds of people who weren’t murdered”
The application of anecdotal data isn’t equally effective, which I thought was interesting.
Though I think a much more rational approach is getting the statistics about the murder rate and people refusing to move to the city.
Or, in our case, the percentages of women who are uncomfortable with coming to the conferences, and the percentages who get harassed.
And the question becomes, how much mistreatment is too much? Do we have a minimum threshold of murders we allow before doing something about it?
Disappointed, but unfortunately not surprised. I think he should have just stuck to his own advice and focused on (his idea of) the movement’s priorities, instead of telling other people their concerns are just trivialities.
o_o
It’s almost as if some people who are freed from religious proscription come to view the world as a sexual candy store with no one at the till.
I don’t know from thunderf00t, but again we see this kind of unreflective…immaturity, I guess?
Like, “Hey, lookamee! I’m randy and roguish and the ladies love it! Why u tryin ta ruin my mojo! Lookamee! I bite a lady leg! She love it! No god = orgy, amarite?”
Since it came from Justicar I think it can be safely said that’s a new gold standard for projection
I’ve entirely lost track of what this debate is about. Frankly, PZ, nothing is going to get done unless you and others involved in this issue are more clear about what you want from conference hosts. I’m disappointed in Thunderf00t as well, but criticizing him isn’t going to change a thing. There will always be sexists, Thunderf00t is probably not one of them, but the real question is, what are we going to do about them?
enselon, calling people out on sexist behavior counts as “doing something about it.” Yes, it is not the only thing we should do about sexist behavior, but it is one thing for us to do about sexist behavior. Because, you see, while criticizing someone might not change a thing, saying nothing will certainly not change a thing.
Well, my comment on Tfoot’s post went to moderation. Which makes me kinda glad I toned it down a mite from what I wrote here. A re-creation:
Off to a great start Tfoot.
At this point you have two choices:
Read this handy link on the subject of privilege [http://brown-betty.livejournal.com/305643.html]* and then go to this site [http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/] and get some of the education you claim to value so much about a subject you’re clearly ignorant on.
Or,
Take this internet shovel, sorry about the splinters it’s well used, and keep digging.
Your choice.
*Can’t be assed to do the html embedding again.
I don’t know if this applies to TF (I simply haven’t followed enough of his “thoughts” first-hand) but usual modus operandi for self-styled “islam-critics” (more accurately described as “islamophobes” or (my fav as it cuts to the chase) racist 2.0) is that women only are oppressed if the person doing the oppression is identified as “muslim” (and of course in europe (again in the emic understandig of this group) any brown or black person is a muslim).
By extention, the only rapes counted as rapes are strangers jumping women in the night etc etc ad nauseam.
The most vile of this group (that guy currently on trial for murder in Oslo) found no problems claiming that(trigger warnings galore):
1: Muslims are misogynist
2: Feminism has ruined Europe, and women should be kept in breeding-camps to make sure the ebil mooslems don’t outbreed white people.
@enselon
Oh, also, criticizing PZ’s actions (his criticizing TF) on the basis that criticizing people’s actions doesn’t do any good is kind of funny,
@49 enselon
Because they have been absolutely silent about what they want.
I believe many of the people on the wrong side of this argument have this “romantic” view of skeptic conferences/community as a place where they can comfortably converse and laugh about UFOs, homeopathy and Psi without being afraid to ever have their own deeply seated prejudices and aspects of their personality challenged.
They hope to preserve their skeptical community as a safe space (haha) for their convictions and political outlook on life, a place where they can do their debunking psychics and talking about acupuncture without having to be afraid of having to confront uncomfortable questions.
I see an analogy to those who complain to the management when people in wheelchairs are present at their holiday resort, because it confronts them with something they don’t want to be confronted with, even though it would be the right thing, the ethical thing, to do.
I have noticed this type of reaction in myself in the past, and I think it is a sign of maturing as a person to overcome it.
PZ and others have been. There is no excuse for your ignorance, so I am assuming it is wilful.
For example Stephanie Zvan has suggested that conferences introduce anti-harassment policies. PZ has spoken up in support of those. He has also called for conferences to increase the number of women speakers, and has congratulated TAM for doing just that.
See above. And why is criticising Thunderfoot not going to do anything ? You think his stupid post should go unchallenged ?
And as for him not being sexist ? The evidence suggests otherwise. You seem to have read the post, so what made you ignore what he said ?
I just popped in TF’s thread he’s got the support of Scented Nectar.
If that doesn’t show him the error of his ways I don’t know what will…
Enselon, if you don’t know what PZ and others want by now, you haven’t been paying attention. Broadly: for conferences to have well-written anti-harrassment policies, that are well publicised, and that are consistently enforced. There should also be some sort of recording procedure – so stronger measures can be used against repeat offenders, and so organisers don’t say dumb shit like “we haven’t had any harrassment” when what they mean is “we didn’t write it down”.
What we’d ultimately like is for men to stop harrassing women, but we realise that that’s likely to take rather longer.
And Thunderfoot’s just written a post full of “I should totally be able to harrass women, and you bitches are just whining”, garnished with sexist imagery, and you think he’s probably not sexist? Really?
Erista: Don’t be childish. My point was that rather than turning this into a flame war, we should take steps to solve the problem of harassment at conferences, if in fact there is a problem. So far, I haven’t seen anyone propose a plan for doing so. Or do we need the Pope to step in and resolve our issues for us?
For example, Thunderf00t suggests that most harassment takes place away from the conference at bars. Well, that may be outside the official purview of conference security, but the real question is, what can we do to make such venues safer for attendees?
At the very least it lets those who have been harassed at atheist/sceptic events that there are people who do not think such behaviour is acceptable, and who are willing to stand up and say so.
@enselon
you WHAAA?
Probably not one of them?
You’re seriously trying to argue that -and- using the ‘why are we talking about this anyway?’ canard?
It’s perfectly clear to anyone with half a brain what is needed from conference organisers. In fact it’s incredibly simple:
– Listen to people’s concerns, don’t dismiss them as over-reactions or ‘drama-mongering’.
– Stop shooting the messenger. People talking about these issues is NOT the problem.
– If you have a policy to deal with these cases, make sure you know how to use it effectively. In other words, when there’s a report of harassment, have a plan of action in place that the con staff/security know and can follow so the affected parties can feel that they are being looked after.
That’s it. No BAN THIS, no SEX BAD RARGH or anything arseholish. It’s not about restricting any healthy social behaviours, it’s just about allowing people to feel safe. If you feel that’s restrictive or unnecessary then you’ll seriously want to reconsider your social interactions. Wow.
@enselon: if you need a catch up on the argument, and what we want, try starting at the harassment policies timeline at Lousy Canuck. About the topic of what we want in particular, I can specifically recommend “Making It Safer in the Meantime” by Stephanie Zvan.
Well, I see I wasn’t the only one weirded out by the “chew on a woman’s leg” comment…
That may be because I’m not a native english-speaker, but the choice of words, given the topic of the post, seemed creepy. Is it a regular expression? I doubt it, but…
The thing that stand out in the TAM/harassement discussion is in his post also:
It not the first time I see this question, and the answer is so blindigly obvious, I think I might be missing something in this argument (“Even if there is a few harassemnt cases, the drop is out of proportion!!!”). I mean, it is not hard to understand that there might be only a few cases, or even one, but 50% of women don’t want to be one of those “few”. Playing the odds with something like that is not exactly appealing,and not risking it is a rational choice.
Stupid choice of words, stupid argumentation… not exactly a bright moment for Thunderfoot.
@ Louis (40)
If the extent really was “women are people and should be treated as such,” I’d be in full agreement.
The last time (that I remember, anyway) I commented on a Women’s Rights related post was back during ElevatorGate, and I had my head ripped off.
I don’t see what’s wrong with hitting on an attractive stranger, as long as you respect their right to tell you to piss off. I understand how tiring it must be for some women who are constantly badgered by horny men, but I feel it’s similar to how tiring it is as an atheist dealing with evangelicals on a daily basis.
That being said, from what I’ve read, TAM seems to have a problem with respect towards fellow attendees. That ‘swinger business card’ story pissed me off.
@cultureclash #25:
This, so much this. I commented about my disappointment on the original post, but after sleeping on it realized the dissonance between “Internet > conferences” and “sexism ain’t no big thang.” Seriously? One woman gets this kind of treatment for a year following (surprise surprise) a YouTube video in which she says “guys, don’t do that.” I agree, the sexism at conferences is small potatoes by comparison. At least after the conference you can go home and hopefully shut out some of the bile. It’s harder to do that when it constantly pours out of your inbox.
@Jasper of Maine #44: I’ve been mulling over that same problem of anecdotal evidence. I think it comes down to the same situation that we have in science, really: anecdotal evidence may provide a starting point for research, but can’t be an endpoint in and of itself. TFoot is trying to use his anecdotes as evidence that the problem isn’t all that bad, and using that to shut down discussion and attempts to curb the problem.
The thing is, women’s anecdotal experiences may not be useful evidence to answer TFoot’s proposed questions, like “how big is the problem?” but they are enough to show that a problem fucking exists, even if we didn’t have the documentation and year’s worth of catalogued online abuse to further support it. That a problem exists is undeniable. TFoot and his pals can argue whether or not it’s a problem worth the attention of privileged white dudes, but the rest of us are trying to have the “what do we do to prevent/correct the problem” discussion, regardless of how “big” the problem is.
People have proposed solutions. If you are ignorant, that is your problem but does not alter the fact people have proposed solutions.
Can you offer a reason for your ignorance ?
Did we not read the same post? Here’s a nice relevant little sentence:
Which would include, you know, a clear anti-harassment policy. Which PZ and others havbe asked for innumerable times already.
As for Thundfuck, what are you going to do besides criticize his behavior? You can’t strap him to a chair and force him to watch sensitivity training videos, A Clockwork Orange style. What you can do is point out his behavior and hope to convince him that he’s wrong. It’s not useless to do so, even if you can’t change Thunderf00t’s mind– it lets women know you support us and you may change someone else’s mind in the process.
Many have done that. What is your excuse for your ignorance?
And you feel that this comparison shows that such behaviour should continue?
Erista, #46,
Oh don’t take my word for it. Here it is. (NSFW and also NSF humans)
Now I am not sure of the artistic merits or ironic considerations, but in my view it doesn’t pass ironic muster, and not only that, it wouldn’t matter in this case if it did.
Yuck
Louis
People don’t seem to understand that we see this issue of anti harassment policies as investment in the future of the movement. Its all well and good to want to grow the movement and combat religions hold on politics. However such efforts need a strong footing to stand on and grow and that is what this is about. Building up the foundation of the movement to make it more effective in the long run.
Thunderfoot likes his military analogies so look at this from a logistics point of view. Sometimes restructuring the supply lines has short term costs and delays but leads to a more efficient structured system in the future. We’re not as concerned with the battle we’re thinking about the war. Sometimes you have to take some short term damage (Dieppe) for long term success (D-day).
Well you clearly managed to learn nothing from the last time you commented here, nor in the intervening period.
Are you normally so slow on the uptake. or only when to get the point will restrict your right to act like a sexist arsehole ?
@Erista: Don’t be childish. My point was that rather than turning this into a flame war, we should take steps to solve the problem of harassment at conferences, if in fact there is a problem.
This is also funny. Your point is that PZ shouldn’t do anything that might turn this into a “flame war,” but should rather take steps to solve the actual problem of harassment at conferences, but you start it all out by calling me childish? Because being condescendingly insulting is surely a constructive step. Tee hee.
Are you . . . new to FtB? Do you not read blogs other than this one, and not read this one regularly? Because lots of people on FtB have worked really hard at putting out plans to help combat sexual harassment at conferences. It’s TFoot who is saying that we don’t need to take any steps, and in fact that we should not take any steps.
Well, one of the things we can do is criticise people when they say sexist shit and make it clear that such things will not be tolerated, in the hopes of gradually changing the culture so such behaviour becomes unacceptable.
You know, like what we’re doing now.
@Deen: Wow, the comments on this site move fast. I wrote my second before most of the responses to the first appeared on my screen. Anyway, I will admit that I have not been following this debate terribly closely, and would probably benefit from reading the links you posted. Thank you for not being an asshole about it like most of the other commenters.
I do maintain my argument, though, that this debate could use a little less yelling and a little more constructive discussion and planning for future conferences. Especially on Pharyngula.
Remind me, michaeld, what’s that short term damage again in our case?
Hmm, my blockquote seems to have failed in 73. Sorry about that.
tone trolling now. priceless :P
@Tyrant al-Kalām #55:
Absolutely, and this goes back at least to the big accommodationist/DBAD row. There’s a wing of the skeptical movement who seem to regard “skepticism” as an endpoint. They’ve declared themselves skeptics, taken all the right positions on alt-med and bigfoot and ghosts, and that’s the end of things. No need to apply that same skepticism to their religious beliefs (it’s metaphysical!), their politics (the invisible hand will take care of everything!), or their privilege (women’s anecdotes don’t count as much as men’s!). They wield phrases like “ad hominem” and “logic” and “straw man” like magical incantations, ignorant of what they actually mean, but sure that they will ward off any bad arguments. They treat skepticism as an identity, an endpoint to be reached, a status that elevates them above the silly rabble and elevates their opinions, however ill-considered, to be well-founded “skeptical” positions. They don’t understand, or don’t care, that it’s an ongoing process.
Since you don’t know what you’re talking about, we’ll be sure to take your thoughts under careful consideration.
Tyrant al-Kalam
Sure people like ophelia not feeling safe to attend tam, people moving to other conventions after things grothe said, people saying really dumb things and loosing parts of their audience. Having to spend post after post deconstructing the same straw arguments about harassment policies instead of time spent moving forward. I don’t think its nearly as much as people like DJ or thunderf00t seem to think but there is a little and its totally worth it in the long run.
@Brownian,
Are we hiding our tribalism with subtle sarcasm again? :D
Fuck on back to the Douchetorium love.
It baffles me the dishonesty required to say this after a glimpse of Abby’s shit hole.
But rather than read the links, you decided to complain about us being assholes whilst being unable to apologise for your ignorance.
And you want us to take lessons in manners from you ?
Now do you have excuse for your ignorance, other just being stupid ?
My coverage.
I don’t see why anyone is surprised about this. It’s not like Thunderf00t doesn’t have a history of straw-manning and taking socially-regressive positions.
DIAGNOSIS COMPLETE: NO PROBLEM DETECTED. CONTACT YOUR NETWORK ADMINISTRATOR OR CONSIDER POSSIBLE USER ERRORS.
I am growing more and more skeptical of this.
[Trigger warning for sexual violence]
@jefrir #58:
It’s probably the same thing that draws a distinction between “rape” and “forcible rape,” or suggests that the only rape is some guy hiding in the bushes waiting to attack, or breaking into the house and tying you up. Similarly, the only sexist is the raging MRAsshole saying “RAHR ROAR I HATEZ THE WIMMINZ!”
@philipranger:
Except Elevator Guy didn’t. Rebecca had already said she was tired of being hit on and wanted to go to bed. It was a pre-emptive “piss off.” It didn’t stop the guy from following her into an elevator to see if she’d change her mind in an enclosed space.
Even if all he wanted was coffee, I can’t think of anything more antithetical to a stated goal of “I’m tired I want to go to bed” than “hey, do you want to come away from your bed and have a drink that will prevent you from sleeping?” Even in the very most charitable view of the elevator story, the guy was still a jerk who ignored multiple explicitly stated wishes of the woman he was pursuing.
And nothing of value was lost.
michaeld,
Forget it, I think I completely misunderstood you the first time around.
Tyrant al-Kalam
Glad we straightened that out
@ 69
I feel that this comparison shows them both as unavoidable in a society where people can express their opinions freely. It can be incredibly irritating, but how would you propose to fix it.
@ 72
“Are you normally so slow on the uptake. or only when to get the point will restrict your right to act like a sexist arsehole ?”
And this is the expected response. I state my opinion in response to another post, and I’m insulted. Stay classy.
The royal ‘we’; you know, the editorial…
I should have added an ‘all’ to indicate that I meant the community of people larger than those described by any skeptic ‘tribes’.
<blockquoteYes, Matt, you’re clearly the paragon of online manners. Don’t worry, I won’t be coming back here.
You know, one of the things that pisses me off about comments like this is the blinding level of privilege they display. The speaker (in this case enselon) gets to use their participation in (or lack thereof) as a weapon to make people do what they want is incredibly rude. “Be nice to me,” the speaker says, “Or I won’t let you educate me on the work you are doing to keep yourself from being raped/assaulted/harassed/groped/murdered/whatever.” The speaker does this while those of us who are fighting the fight don’t get to flounce off and be safe from the rape/assault/blah blah. Everywhere we go, everything we do, we are subject to this. But, you know, if we aren’t nice enough, then no one will listen to us while we’re screaming for help! Cuz, you know, who wants to help a person who is being assaulted if that person is rude? Pssh, not me, bitches!
*sigh*
Excellent result then.
Just a pity you thought fit to inflict your ignorance on us in the first place.
Once more in English?
‘
*puts on monocle* I cordially invite you to go fuck yourself
Er, let’s try that again.
You know, one of the things that pisses me off about comments like this is the blinding level of privilege they display. The speaker (in this case enselon) gets to use their participation in (or lack thereof) as a weapon to make people do what they want is incredibly vile. “Be nice to me,” the speaker says, “Or I won’t let you educate me on the work you are doing to keep yourself from being raped/assaulted/harassed/groped/murdered/whatever.” The speaker does this while those of us who are fighting the fight don’t get to flounce off and be safe from the rape/assault/blah blah. Everywhere we go, everything we do, we are subject to this. But, you know, if we aren’t nice enough, then no one will listen to us while we’re screaming for help! Cuz, you know, who wants to help a person who is being assaulted if that person is rude? Pssh, not me, bitches!
*sigh*
Two flounces within the first 100 comments?
I think it’s Miller time everyone!
~Living it up at the Hotel California~
philipranger
Well, we could try talking about it and getting the message out that such behaviour might be legal, but should be considered rude.
By doing what we’re doing right now. Creating social stigma against people who abuse their right to “express their opinions freely” (you do understand that social disapproval is OK, right? You do get that we are “free” to express our “opinions” only from government suppression, right?) by being giant fuckheads or outright intimidators to women.
And stop telling us what you “feel”. If you discover the concept of thinking let us know.
@Thomasfoss,
Yeah, I know it’s actually just another round of the same “you can’t prove Ron Paul hates black people, therefore you mustn’t call him racist, even if he takes blatantly racist actions” that we had in the other thread. As if calling people bigots when they’re acting bigoted is some sort of massive leap to an incredibly unlikely explanation, and also the worst thing ever; far worse than whatever those minorities are complaining about.
You deserve to be insulted, given you think hitting on women is perfectly OK. Once you had said that you lost any right to be treated with respect. Given you have previously had the problem explained to you there is no longer any excuse for your ignorance.
Or to put it even more simply. If you admit to be an arsehole you cannot complain when people treat you like one.
In part, by criticizing stupid comments like,
You’re seriously complaining that you said THIS in defense of douche porting and people think you’re an idiot?
Ah, willful ignorance is bliss…
All this has made me realize just how very happy I am that there exist at least some people around who do give a shit.
I’m especially thankful for all the people who care enough to not only “not participate” in unwelcome or unwelcoming behaviours and attitudes, but to call them out, to actively oppose them, whether they’re the target or not.
I appreciate all those who have worked – and are working – to make at least some spaces welcoming to people of all races, genders, appearances, abilities, sexual orientation… and any other features you care to add to that list. Who indeed have worked, and are working, to make our world a better place.
I thank all those who endure all the baseless insults, the threats, the cries of ‘just stfu already!’ and other inane bullshit thrown their way, and yet continue on. Who continue speaking out, continue trying to educate the ignorant, continue fighting for everyone’s right to be heard and to be treated as fully human.
Thank you.
*sigh* nothing wastes my time like a dude. I thought his blog might be worth a damn.
Its like when I tried to watch a documentary on nerdcore hip hop awhile ago, I was kinda excited and then it turned into a movie about how the dudes go about getting groupies on tours, and it went on for so long that I just shut it off because I didn’t want to hear any more shit about women as sexual objects.
Its like every time I get excited about something it turns into being about dudes trying to stick their dicks in women. None of them stop to think what it would be like to live in a world of unwanted sexual attention, where you can’t buy a fucking sandwhich or watch a movie without it becoming an issue.
Who made you blog leader tone troll? I don’t see your name on the masthead. PZ runs a rewd blog. Either shut the fuck up about tone, or move to a blog that has tea and crumpets instead of grog and swill served.
Thunderfuckwit
1) How the fuck do you address issues of bigotry without talking about it, and calling it it for what it is?
2) How the fuck did “feminize” get lumped in with those other terms?
@Woo
Feminazi not feminize.
Because they are both exactly equal terms.
I can just feel the love. Cmon, let all the anger out.
Just to see what the response is, I have to ask: is it ok for women to hit on men? Assuming they respect the man’s right to tell them to piss off, of course.
Also, are you all out of rotten porcupines? I’m surprised I’ve yet to be offered one.
Woo_Monster
> How the fuck did “feminize” (spellcheck error?) get
> lumped in with those other terms?
As that classic xkcd states, this way he found a way to feel superior to both sides.
Nope, it is not OK.
Got any more simple questions to which you should already know the answer ?
Thunderfoot advocates total war against Muslims. He later said he wasn’t advocating genocide, and his fans were relieved — see, he’s not advocating genocide after all, no problem! — so that somehow the fact that he was advocating total war was overlooked.
Even his defenders say “Thunderf00t’s Islam videos are badly researched shit”.
And Dark Vader telling that skank Leia to get in the kitchen? Fucking hilarious! I have never heard that one before. Telling a woman to get in the kitchen, maybe in order to assemble a sammich for a dude-bro. ROFL. So witty. So original.
Fuck you Thunderfoot,
@Philipranger
I stupidly do this hoping it will someday work
http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/
Read this link. Note that everyone here has read this link and agrees that these are the signs of a small and cowardly mind.
Please cross reference your behavior to these to see if you have any chance of not being a loser.
If you need help you are engaging in Pity Riposte and hints of sliding into Winning by Losing and Hotel California.
Good thing we have backups. Let me offer you this hungry TaintHugger. It’s been genetically engineered to combine the best features of my taint with the proven face-hugging technology brought to you by Alien. Tuck in!
I sincerely hope that to “chew on some woman’s leg” is some kind of slang presumably meaning flirting or something, in the same way that to “chew someone’s lug [lug = ear, very old Australian English* slang]” is a euphamism for begging for a loan or freebie.
If, on the other hand, “chew some woman’s leg” actually means chewing the leg, then I would fully expect him to be thrown out of the bar as soon as the woman inquestion complains to the nearest bouncer. While a consenting couple can do whatever the fuck they want with each other, it’s is quite another matter to simply ask that of ‘some woman’ at a bar.
<Please tell me it’s slang for flirting! I’d hate it if the latest addition to FTBorg turned out to be a MRA.
I’m not advocating genocide! Just mass murder! I’ll leave some children to cry about their dead parents, I mean I’m not Hitler or something!
I wonder why Thunderfap hasn’t responded to (m)any of the comments to his recent emission of effluent.
@Holms
we should applaud FFB’s diversity. They have people who are correct and people who are wrong. We should get some creationists here!
Sorry to do this to you, but he has a picture of him chewing on a woman’s leg. If you feel the need to vomit, do.
@Matt Pnefold
Wait…what?
FUCK. I forgot to close italics AND I forgot to expand on that footnote. Done and done:
*Australian English is basically English English** but with a bunch of our own idioms added.
**English English by the way is proper English. Screw you, enUS settings!
He’s not just arguing that’s he’s a manly man and no woman could be bothered by his attention: He’s basically saying that’s he’s rational and all the women who are claiming to have been harassed or afraid of harassment are falling for emotional scare tactics. Therefore, we should listen to his speculation over their lived experience. This sounds like classic passive-aggressive misogyny to me. Who invited him?
This whole shit-storm is essentially a disagreement about identity. One group thinks that they are men/women, and another group thinks that they are something more universal. The real problem is that both groups are obsessed with thinking, a.k.a. mind-fucking. When you notice that you are conscious it will all seem unimportant.
Maybe if we want some popular atheist vloggers, we should invite TheAmaazingAtheist. IIRC, he’s the most popular of all.
@ 123
OOOO! Can we get a raelian! I want a Raelian blog ;P
@ 115
Ah, good to know. And since you asked…
Is it ok for me to smile when I see an attractive woman pass by me on the street? Not in a creepy ‘stare at her breasts & grin like an idiot’ way, more like a ‘that is an attractive woman’ smile. Like you’d react when driving past a godless billboard?
Can I complement a woman’s clothing? I remember seeing a woman the other day wearing a really nice dress, in regards to style & colour. Really brought out her blue eyes. Is giving her a random complement ok, or is it just me demonstrating my sexist ways?
Last question: should I hold open the door for a woman, even if I have to wait in the doorway for more than a second? I normally try to be polite & keep the door open whenever someone is entering/leaving the building close behind me, but since it could easily be interpreted as another example of macho BS, should I just let the door close in their face?
I guess Vijen’s comment shows us that if you want to make something worse, just start talking like Deepak Chopra.
Yeah, definitely meant to type “feminazi”….
Philipranger,
Stop playing the tone-trolling martyr and go away. Please?
“Just to see what the response is”? You know, when you are trying to JAQ-OFF, you shouldn’t give away your game so easily by explicitly stating that you are only asking to see how people respond, as oppose to, you know, actually caring about what you are discussing enough to take on board other peoples’ thoughts.
What a pathetic shit-stain, begging for a porcupine. Only the most faux-victimized dude-bros actually ask for porcupines.
Well, even if Pharyngula is a rewd blog, I will be kind enough to oblige a reasonable request. I humbly offer you a porcupine to do with as you wish (offer excludes all uses of said porcupine that do not involve your ass). Maybe with a big enough plug, you can keep your bullshit from dribbling out onto this thread.
Oh, I see my italics fuck up didn’t spill over to the next comment. Or did Ing start with a closer?
This is going to be soooo embarrassing in a few years time. PZ Meyers and the rest getting all worked up about girls getting hit on, not knowing how to say no…. and the rest of the world is just looking on, scared to realize that american atheists/skeptics aren’t that different from their fundamental christian country men.
Seriously: watching this debate from Europe (Switzerland/Germany, Köln, that civilized city with the good public transport?) it is getting really hard to see a difference between you guys and some sexually repressive christian freaks. You are creating an atmosphere of fear. The impression you get in Europe is “witch hunt”. Nobody here understands what elevator-gate was all about – and nobody really cares.
The photo has a caption: “The screaming ones always taste better”.
@ 118
Really? I pictured myself as more of a ‘Innocent Question’ sort of guy.
You know what? All this joking about “lets invite ___(ridiculous person)!” is starting to piss me off. How the fuck does one get of FTB anyway? I think I have at least as good of a shot as this asshole if there is any kind of application process. If its an invitation process, who decides to invite?
I’m gonna make a new sexism hall of shame entry for thunderfoot in the mean time. Asshole.
Vijen,
You probalby think you are having deep insights, but whatever it is you’re on, is seriously messing with your perception there.
Oh gosh, #131. Philip has clearly dropped his pants and has the tissues at the ready. With that Gish-JAQ_OFF, now all he has to do is wait for all of the responses and abuse (legitimate and justified) to roll in, then… hoggle, hoggle, hoggle.
About his “One Rule to Rule Them All” libertarianistic excuse to say “tone it down, I think *scratch balls*”: that’s precisely what was being asked for – a policy for each convention that is all-encompassing equal protection and a method to marginalise bad behaviour from known harassers. Complaining that in it’s specificity it loses power is unthinking critical-mass stupidity.
Rather than necessitating female speakers and organisers go out of their way to avoid harassment, a policy and better vetting of troublesome participants, along with consistent enforcement of clearly worded policies would have allowed for a more ideal atmosphere for everyone – those who break the rules wouldn’t get to skate around, claim ambiguity or even non-existence of the rules.
I’m rather miffed that TF even thought his was a good argument – how the fuck does a policy that says “Don’t harass” get interpreted, by whom, and how can we tell if they’re acting fairly? There’s no way to know what the organisers would consider harassment if it was left at that, and would be an ineffectual metric when it came to resolving disputes of harassment. Simply put, there is no way for someone to ensure that the policy would be effectively enforced when it mattered to them if it was an open-ended fly-by-wire discretion based policy.
I’m European, and you’re an idiot, Rainer.
@enselon:
Then please repay the favor and admit that coming into a thread saying things like
or
while not having actually followed the debate closely isn’t exactly civil either. Sure, it doesn’t use swear-words, but absence of swearing does not civility make. The appropriate response here would be an apology, not threatening to take your marbles home.
No, what will be embarassing is how groping and attempted upskirt photography was equated with “girls being hit on and not knowing how to say no”. How rape threats for a years time were considered a “non-issue”.
also- “girls”? You are a piece of shit.
Well I can tell you put a lot of work into that. You even managed to spell Myers incorrectly, despite the name being spelt correctly right in front of you. That must have taken some doing.
Yeah, because thinking that women are people too is so similar to being a sexually repressed Christian.
And since we have a number of people here who live on Europe and do not agree with you, I will take your claim to be speaking on behalf of Europe as a lie.
It is true that many European cities are civilised places, but as you are intent on showing us, not all of its citizens can be described as civilised.
@ 140.
Hoggle?
I just figured, if I’m going to be insulted merely for expressing an honest opinion, may as well go full steam!
And why would I use tissues after dropping my pants? Clearly toilet paper would be more appropriate.
@Tyrant al-Kalām: I had bets running here how long it would take to get that kind of a response. I lost. I said 10 minutes… so predictable.
@Rainer,
>I had bets running here how long it
> would take to get that kind of a response.
So congratulations are in order I suppose…
Rainer,
curse us and our predictability!
Don’t you guys see the hysterics of it all? The shrill tone. The aggression? One moment some is a hero. The next moment – if he/she has the “wrong” opinion – he/she is a villain that must be destroyed. Come on. The tone of this “debate” is the giveaway.
Rainer,
Wow, you must be Nostrafuckingdamus. You spew idiocy all over the place and (correctly) predict that you will be called an idiot… Great job!
Any guesses on the lotto this month (lottos are monthly, right? Never participated myself.)
I’ll just leave this here
https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2011/08/01/pharyngula-standards-practices/
@ 150: He was never a hero to me. I was shocked FTB ever invited him. Besides, if a hero starts working against the cause are we supposed to ignore it?
Fair enough, Deen. I apologize for involving myself in a debate without doing my homework first. Not that I have much of a reputation to salvage here.
Bye guys, I’m out of here. You really don’t get it. Let’s meet here in 20 years, read all this and see what you think then…
As long as you promise not to ever do a fucking thing without asking first, I’ll answer your questions.
You want to smile at a woman like you’d smile at a billboard? Not a, “Hey, just passing by, let’s acknowledge each other’s existence” but, “Hey, there’s something you don’t see every day! Here’s one for my scrapbook!”
Why don’t you just take out your camera and snap one for a later blog post?
What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you a piece of shit?
No. She didn’t buy the clothes for you, and she’ll just give them to Goodwill when she finds out that morons and dipshits like them.
Seriously, you are a piece of shit.
Why do fuckholes like this always think that this is some sort o gotcha?
Phil, fuckhead: I’m going to type in all caps, though frankly, I think you’re too fucking stupid to live:
WHAT DO PEOPLE IN YOUR REGION NORMALLY DO? DOES EVERYONE HOLD THE DOOR FOR EVERYONE ELSE? IF SO, THEN CONTINUE TO ACT LIKE YOU HAVE SOME INKLING AS TO WHAT HUMANS DO. IF IT COMES DOWN TO ONLY HOLDING THE DOOR OPEN FOR WOMEN, THEN DON’T DO THAT.
ALSO, CONSIDER THAT ANY WOMAN INTERACTING WITH YOU IS GOING TO BE AT LEAST TEN TIMES AS SMART AS YOU. AS LONG AS YOU DON’T SHIT YOURSELF GIGGLING WHILE HOLDING THE DOOR, SHE’LL ONLY HAVE ONE HAND ON THE PEPPER SPRAY.
FUCK.
Is there a staffing shortage at the Santorum Home for the Socially Confused again ?
Was that so painful?
You think fighting for human dignity and the right to go to a fucking conference without every fucking wanker on the continent hoping you’ll be the one to end his dry streak is something to be embarrassed about?
Laugh at me, fucker. Be embarrassed for me. Because I’d rather be dead than give a flying fuck about your approval.
For some people, clearly. I would have thought it much better manners to hold the door open for anybody and everybody. But then I tend not to regard women merely as receptacles for my pee-pee.
JAQ-er,
Philip is not hogging, no way, he just loves attractive* women, and doesn’t want to be told that it may sometimes be inappropriate to constantly hit on them.
Don’t fucking gawk at people. Try friendly conversation and mutual flirting instead of PUA-type hitting on people. Fuck, it is not that hard.
*You could ask the same questions without making sure to let everyone know that you only hit on the attractive women. You would get the same answer. It is not okay to harass women (or anyone for that matter).
Godsdamnit. I meant to type “Hoggling”, not “hogging”. Fuck me this typing business is difficult/ fuck me I need to be more patient in my read-throughs before I hit submit.
Reading this comment for a third time…
Alright… submit!
Maybe that is the problem, and there impotence has led to some sexual frustration.
Rainer, I’m in Europe and I understood what elevatorgate was about. It was about one guy ignoring a woman’s stated preferences and boundaries, and then a whole bunch more guys reacting to a suggestion that they not do that as if it’s some terrible imposition.
The concept of treating women as human beings is really not that difficult or huge a thing to ask. Seriously, this is like the minimum requirement for decent behaviour.
Also, the original incident in elevatorgate happened in Ireland you dumb fuck.
skeptifem
I think you’d make a lovely addition skeptifem! If your theme could be imported doubleplus so!
You could even go all non-tribal for a post or two so you can get some youtube hits (y’know, cause they’re the end-all be-all of the sceptical movement!)
Woo_Monster, Philip wasn’t hitting on the attractive woman, he just wanted to know if he could smile to himself upon seeing her. Like he would with a an atheist billboard, which is a similarly inanimate object that doesn’t have the right to wonder why some weirdo is smiling to himself while looking at it.
I . . . don’t even know what to say.
Also, “waah” at the picture of Darth Vader pointing Leia at the kitchen.
Now I’m . . . depressed.
“I understand how tiring it must be for some women who are constantly badgered by horny men, but I feel it’s similar to how tiring it is as an atheist dealing with evangelicals on a daily basis.”
Let me try to explain this to you.
Being told I’m going to hell is tiring. But that’s pretty much where it ends. And I won’t get told that unless I let the evangelicals know in some fashion that I am an atheist. Nothing about me says “atheist!”.
But I can’t hide the fact that I’m a woman. This means the comments and unwanted physical contact could happen at any time. It’s entirely creepy to feel someone touching my hair and turn around and find some guy petting me. “Oh, you have such lovely hair.” When they acquiesce to my “Don’t touch me, please” it doesn’t change the fact that it was seriously creepy and that they felt entitled to have physical contact without my permission.
When I was 17 I was stalked. The guy tried to break in. The cops did nothing about it.
I had an emotionally unstable guy try to break up my then-engagement and who kissed me without my permission.
I was followed through downtown early in the morning after walking a disabled friend to the lightrail so *she* wouldn’t have something like that happen.
Those were all outright terrifying. But it doesn’t need to be as obvious a danger level as those incidences to still be an alarming experience.
Once, when I was at the dorms, I was coming home really late. It was after midnight and I was the only person on the ground floor while waiting for the elevator. In walks this really tall, really buff guy right as the elevator opens up. I walk into the elevator, and he runs up and stands in the elevator door to block it from closing.
So far nothing has happened, but my alarm level has ratcheted up to 11. I’m alone. There’s no way this guy couldn’t overpower me if he chose. I have no way to escape.
Then he asks “This where the hos at?” Alarm level now over 9000. “I heard this building was where the hos is at.”
“No, I’ve not heard that.”
“Oh.” And he left. Nothing happened. I wasn’t sexually assaulted. I wasn’t even harassed. Yet the fear I was feeling at that point was entirely justified.
And for a woman, situations like that can happen all the time. So it’s not ‘tiring’ to be hit upon constantly. It’s wondering ‘is this one going to try something more?’
I don’t like having to live like that! I don’t like jumping at shadows and watching my back and looking for escape routes. But I’ve had enough experiences in my 29 years that it seems to be a reasonable action on my part.
And from what I recall EG was Irish, or at least spoke with an Irish accent.
Ah, but an enlightened European woman would have known to tell Elevator Guy that she wasn’t interested, instead of being all weirded out by an inappropriate stranger in an elevator at 4AM.
But only during a leap year, as I understand the Irish tradition.
@ 156
Oh yes, keep the anger coming. Every capitalized letter is like another cherry on my internet sundae.
Its sad though, people where I live don’t seem to be polite enough to hold the door open for strangers. I do what I can, even if its not normal around here.
I’m surprised though. The only person I seriously addressed on this post hasn’t responded to me, even just to insult me.
@ 158.
Cmon, think about the context! Obviously a sexist like me wouldn’t hesitate to open a door for another male. Or, at least, holding the door for a guy has nothing to do with being especially polite to the opposite sex.
Farewell. Alas, you leave us knowing that, yes, you have tried so hard, given your best again and again. Yet! The ungrateful masses but mocked your wisdom. But didn’t they also laugh at Einstein, and the guy who invented the wheel? History will be on your side, so sleep in peace until we shall meet again.
I doubt you (or I – *ahem*) do have at least as good of a shot. By my count – and please correct me if I’m missing someone – there are no pseudonymous women bloggers at FTB. Few pseudonymous men, either, but no women.
That still leaves room for Ben Radford, Jean Kazez, Jesse Bering, Russell Blackford, Jeremy Stangroom, Razib Khan, a whole harangue of pitizens,…
I see what you did there, Matt. Hardy-har.
Brownian,
Exactly. He isn’t ogling in a creepy way. Not at all. He is just admiring a
objectwoman of beauty. Why would anyobjectwoman not like that?I don’t remember voting for you to speak for all Europeans.
One last one (I couldn’t resist): please count how many times I’ve been called “dumb fuck” etc. in 30 minutes.
Doesn’t that say a lot. About you. Not me.
You don’t know me. You don’t know my attitudes. You don’t know I like women in power and think the world would benefit if more were in leading positions (political and economic). You don’t know the woman I share my life with. But you know I’m a “dumb fuck”. Great. Not more to say about that.
And on the comment about “girls”? Yeah, women can handle getting hit on. Some girls (girl/women has nothing to do with age) can’t. And that makes me a … “piece of shit” Wow :-)
Really, the style is embarrassing regardless of what you think about the content. And that’s the giveaway. Your style is just as hysterical as christian freaks.
Nothing oire to say… and now I’m really out of here.
When did Europe become post-sexist? Was that before, after, or simultaneous with the transformation of the word “cunt” into a genderless insult?
philipranger
Well if you also hold doors for men, why did you feel the need to ask about holding doors for women? It’s quite simple: do not discriminate when holding doors.
Also. I have a name. Using this name (or quoting the words you’re replying to, or both) makes it easy for me to see when you’re addressing a comment to me. Oddly enough, I don’t make a note of the number when posting a comment.
You do know that the Emperor, and in fact all of your Star Wars friends are imaginary, right?
But I have a boundless source of anger. So keep asking for it, fuckface, AND I WILL DELIVER IN GODDAMN FUCKING SPADES.
Ah, so you are a creepy piece of shit. Do you know that the world is actually a worse place because you’re in it, still breathing?
Actually you will this is after all where the “no sexualized imagery” clause in anti-harassment policies comes from. And No, I don’t want sexualized imagery at atheist / skeptic meetings.
I think women deserve more credit than that. I don’t belief that many were actually scared away by blogposts about sexual harassment.
In general I think that people who uncritically derive their worldview from blogposts should rather convert to Catholicism than attend skeptic meetings.
Why are people so confused about when to hold doors open? This is not complicated. You hold the door if:
1. You are walking next to someone and it is easier for you to get the door than for them.
2. You are ahead of someone, and holding the door won’t make you wait an excessive amount of time, or make the other person feel they have to rush.
3. The person will have difficulty opening the door themselves (eg. because of a disability, or because they are carrying something).
As being female is not some sort of disability that prevents one from opening doors, sex should play absolutely no role in whether you hold a door for someone.
Hint: the same applies to any other “gentlemanly” behaviour that exists on the basis that women are weak and feeble and need protecting.
@180- “I think women deserve more credit than that. I don’t belief that many were actually scared away by blogposts about sexual harassment. ”
I certainly wouldn’t be scared away. Those blogs just tell me that I should keep to my normal level of alertness, rather than getting to really relax. Won’t keep me from going to atheist conventions in the future.
This is so full of win. Let’s all just read and reread this for the LULZ.
Thanks, Rainer. You’re welcome to drop by any time as long as you bring that sense of humour.
I hold doors open for everyone. I get the strangest looks from men sometimes when I do it.
FFS no one ever reads the cracked link do they.
There is a list of behaviors that make you look like a tool it is posted and yet they still can’t help but make themselves look like irrational idiots.
Well it does say you are a dumb fuck. Since we agree you are a dumb fuck I don’t understand your continued insistence of proving it to us.
We are going on what you have said here. So far that shows you to be a sexist and misogynist arsehole of limited intellect but an unlimited sense of entitlement. If that does not describe you, then you only have yourself to blame in being such a poor communicator.
It shows you devalue women. And yes, that does make you a piece of shit.
Yes, because treating women like people is so hysterical. Actually, hysterical is rather inadvised given the content. Trying looking up the origin of the word sometime.
Make sure you stick the flounce. If you want PZ can help. Of course that would be PZ Myers, not PZ Meyers as you seem to think.
How would you know there are no pseudonymous women here? I know at least one.
Also, Thunderf00t got in on the strength of his phenomenal anti-creationist efforts, which I do respect most highly. He’s a smart guy on some matters; let’s try to wise him up on the gigantic lacunae in his knowledge.
And of course it’s possible for you to get a slot here. We’ve got a list, a long list, with a committee evaluating them. It’s not based on just feminism, though — there’s more than one reason to bring somebody in.
But I think you might be right that our anti-feminist quota has been more than fully met, and there might be some different emphases in our criteria from now on.
Oh, be fair, Ing. It’s really hard not looking like an irrational idiot when you are, in fact, an irrational idiot.
I guess Rainer has never been to Spain. Misogyny and sexism are almost as popular as football for Spanish men.
You guys going on about him chewing on a woman’s leg. I know the woman in the picture and if you look at the picture it is clearly consensual. No woman is in danger of having their leg chewed on by Thunder without their consent.
If the behavior is consensual, there is no reason for you to be outraged about it.
I support a reasonable anti-harassment policy that is about UNWANTED sexual attention.
I do not support a policy that prohibits behavior that is consensual, but offends the subjective sensibilities of a few people. ex. consensual leg chewing and other activities that don’t involve public nudity. Another example dictating what people wear at booths again with the caveat of public nudity which is already against the law.
I wish you guys would deal with actual harassing behavior, and stop calling for censorship or boycotts of people or organizations you don’t agree with. That is fundy tactics. It isn’t a right not to be offended or censor people who don’t agree with you. It is your right to disagree and voice your opinion.
While I know full well that this is just some “you’re just like the religious” bullshit that halfwits like anotheratheist say like it’s gonna have an effect (after all, theists love to compare atheists to the religious too, so where does that leave you?), I’d like anotheratheist to actually flesh this out.
Why?
Wouldn’t such a meeting be an opportunity to really learn?
Should the meetings only be for the initiated? What does one have to do to prove that they’ve gotten a well-rounded enough worldview (rather than just from blogposts) to attend?
At least the Mormons have the underwear to demonstrate that they’re temple-worthy.
C’mon, fucker. Let’s see what you’ve got.
@131:
Really? OK…
Is it ok for me to smile when I see an attractive woman pass by me on the street? Not in a creepy ‘stare at her breasts & grin like an idiot’ way, more like a ‘that is an attractive woman’ smile. Like you’d react when driving past a godless billboard?
No, typically you should not react to another person the same way as you would to a godless billboard, or any other inanimate object. If you find yourself doing so, I’d recommend some self-reflection.
Can I complement a woman’s clothing? I remember seeing a woman the other day wearing a really nice dress, in regards to style & colour. Really brought out her blue eyes. Is giving her a random complement ok, or is it just me demonstrating my sexist ways?
No, you should not approach anyone you don’t know, uninvited, for the sole purpose of complimenting their appearance.
Any friends you have can best advise you personally as to whether or not they themselves appreciate your extra attention to their appearance.
Last question: should I hold open the door for a woman, even if I have to wait in the doorway for more than a second? I normally try to be polite & keep the door open whenever someone is entering/leaving the building close behind me, but since it could easily be interpreted as another example of macho BS, should I just let the door close in their face?
Yes, to the extent that this is something that is polite to do for most people.
But note too that sometimes “holding a door” can also be “not polite”. Helps if you make a habit of thinking before acting.
I’ve used the term “LOL” before, but I am not usually literally laughing out loud. Not now though. Now, I say, “LOL” and fucking mean it. LOL.
Except for the ones you have expressed here, you mean.
yep, devaluing women who “can’t handle” rainer’s harassment by calling them “girls” doesn’t make you a piece of shit at all. /snark
Extreme tunnel vision
Embarrassment for any European @ 135,
It has been pointed out already that EG happened in Ireland and that EG may have been Irish (I don’t know). You mention public transport, which city is the one with the good PT you are referring to, Koeln or Switzerland ? Because us Americans here really don’t know anything about your little equal rights and sexual freedom paradise over there, so please excuse our ignorance.
I also note that you too are using the term “witch hunt” to talk about matters of women’s rights and women’s safety concerns, which was only recently done by certain slimepit affiliates, and is something that many people may consider as being a bit tasteless or insensitive. But then, you’re from Europe, Koeln or Switzerland, so maybe you just don’t know better.
Where do you see anyone proposing a harassment policy that forbids consensual activities?
Here, it’s generally what people do.
Give an example of such a policy that people are supporting, please.
Who is doing this? Examples, please.
Yawn. And people call me tribalistic.
O hai, r disagreements we is voicing.
@lilandra in #190: who exactly do you think is trying to outlaw consentual behavior?
Have. You assholes still complain about getting dicks wet. See: Elevatorgate.
Sure you do. That’s in the definition, you know, so this kind of quibbling? Makes you seem less than honest.
The misogynistic fucks have enough of a platform. Anti-creationist skeptics are cheap; please try to emphasize not being a flaming bigot. I hardly expect perfection, but outright anti-…
I think lilandra is one of those people anotheratheist was talking about. One who uncritically derives their worldview from blogposts.
Unlike anotheratheist upthread, I support lilandra’s desire to attend skeptics’ meetings, should xe have it.
@PZ
If you want a reconmondation just invite EVR so we can spend allt he time here playing this game.
@ 168
That is honestly a troubling story. My current trolling spree aside, you have my condolences for having to deal with the creepy stalking type. And the ignorant buff guy looking for hos. There are a lot of guys who are total jackasses, with no empathy or consideration for the feelings of others.
I don’t consider myself one of them though.
I remember a few years back, having a female co-worker speak to me, because someone else in my department was upsetting her by staring/forcing awkward conversations constantly/other creepy behaviors. She & I had some mutual friends outside of the workplace, and I think she was hesitant to involve the management unless it was absolutely necessary.
Needless to say, I spoke to the creepy guy (well, also slammed him into a high school locker when he denied what I knew to be true), as well as my manager @ work. About a week later, the co-worker told me the situation was resolved, and thanked me.
Its a shame when people cannot respect another person’s desire to be left alone. Or understand that people can feel threatened rather easily and do the polite thing by minimizing the concerns of other people, especially when its so easy.
When I hit on women in bars, its not a case of “that woman is sitting by herself, lets go try to get into her pants!” I never go to bars alone, always with groups of friends. Often times, other groups join us, usually with a few mutual friends linking groups together. Often times, there are attractive girls in those other groups, and as a young adult male, I’ll express an interest. Sometimes it goes somewhere, and sometimes it doesn’t.
My point is, I believe that there is a right & wrong way, to hit on people of the opposite sex. There is a right & a wrong way to complement someone. It takes empathy to know the difference.
Even if you think I’m a complete jackass & a waste of oxygen, thank you for posting in a manner befitting a civilized person. I appreciate the honesty.
It’s posted on the wall of their straw house. I believe they got three pigs into build it.
I for one have in fact been made less likely to go to any given random skeptical/atheist conference, but not because of women talking about sexual harassment. Instead, it’s been the response to these women that make me nervous.
You see, I have been to one (and only one) skeptical/atheist conference. During this event, a man who I had never met before the conference but who had made friendly conversation with at the conference touched me without my permission. This touch was not unbearably terrible (he asked me to walk with him in a park a little ways from the conference center, and while thus isolated he took my hand and asked me to kiss him. When I refused and took my hand back, he started grilling me as to what “some other man” had done to me to make me so nervous), but it was nevertheless jarring. What made it bearable is that I assumed that if I told someone, they would immediately declare that he was in the wrong. However, (among other things) I had no particular desire to get him in trouble or make more of the conference about his inappropriate behavior than it already was, so I told no one.
That being said, it is becoming increasingly clear from the responses to posts about anti-harassment policies that for a chunk of people, the truly awful part of the situation would have been if I had said anything. Watching other women get peppered with “Oh, it’s no big deal!” and “He stopped when you told him to!” and “It’s wrong of you to humiliate him!” and “I would have loved it if someone had done that to me!” and “Why did you leave the hotel with him?” and “If it was so bad, why didn’t you report it?” and “You should expect people to do that if you’re going to go to conferences!” and “You’re a feminazi!” have all severely impacted my ability to feel safe at conferences. I don’t want to be treated that way. Now I feel like I need to go with a friend or something.
So, congratulations to all those people who are complaining about women talking about sexual harassment. You have managed to make me less likely to go to a conference.
lilandra
How will you know it’s UNWANTED until AFTER it has occured?
@philipranger
Fuck off.
Boycotting events that refuse to address harassment is one way of dealing with harassing behavior. There are plenty of venues that used this discussion as an opportunity to implement and strengthen their harassment policies. If a certain event is dragging their feet in this regard, boycotting them sends them a message. You vote with your feet. Attending the cons that have implemented strong anti-harassment policies (that are dealing with “actual harassing behavior” as you call it) is the way to show that you support their efforts at making a safe-space.
What the fuck do you think we are doing here besides voicing our opinions? Nobody is claiming a “right” not to be offended. We are just disagreeing with offensive behavior.
@190- None of the policies prohibit consensual behaviour. No one is suggesting that at all.
What we want is for people to realise that a lot of what is deemed ‘okay’ behaviour may not be so deemed by the person receiving the behaviour.
Random strangers seem to love to pet my hair. It’s long, wavy, and an interesting shade of blonde/brown.
It’s generally harmless, but I did NOT agree to let them touch me. They just assumed.
That’s the problem with hitting on women. You *assume* that your sexual advance is going to be held/seen as harmless and thus it’s okay to make it.
Don’t touch my hair. Don’t hit on me. I don’t want either.
Oh you fucking hero you. Is there a reason, one wonders, why his behaviour wasn’t reported direct to the manager? A chance that she might have been fobbed off without the situation being addressed, maybe?
And given her policy would only prohibit unwanted sexual attention, it would seem unwanted attention of any other nature would be just fine. Or maybe she just has not thought this through properly.
lilandra @190:
Take that to the JREF.
Citation.Desperately.Fucking.Needed.
You are very much ignorant of events, go here:https://proxy.freethought.online/lousycanuck/2012/06/15/harassment-policies-campaign-timeline-of-major-events/
@190:
I will simply repost what I said in post 36:
Why are we criticizing Thunderf00t? Only Thunderf00t doesn’t understand why.
“Ha-ha! I actually do support women, I just like to put them through the sexist ringer first, because I’m an asshole.
I’m against racism, and all my non-White friends know I’m just kiddin’ around when I complain about how affirmative action is reverse racism. Fun for everyone!”
Was your story supposed to make you look like more or less of a sack of shit, phil?
@philipranger
Surely, as a young adult male, you should be flirting with adult women, rather than girls?
Lilandra,
Serious question here, have any of you dumbfucks taken a look at corporate anti-harassment policies &/or the applicable state laws?
Every one that I’ve seen prohibits “unwanted” sexual advances. Generally, the rule of thumb to follow to keep from getting sued is you don’t know what is “unwanted”. To apply it to conferences, if you don’t know if your behavior is “unwanted”, assume that it is! This isn’t brain science, you know.
And I’ve yet to see an answer to this question: do you fight against your employer/HR department over their anti-harassment policies? If not, why should conferences be any different?
Always count on Karmakin to bring impenetrable intellectual masturbation and mealy-mouthed “try to see it from their point of view” bullshit to a straightforward discussion.
A3kr0n:
Because we all care so much whether you’re reading or not.
BTW, nice link farm you got there.
Philipranger:
Isn’t that special. Did you want a cookie for realizing that chewing on a strange woman’s leg is a bad thing?
Aaaaand, once again, we see a comment about EG with all the goddamned context stripped out of it.
Stay petulant, trollish, and disingenuous. I have a feeling you already knew the answers to your questions at #131 before you asked them, but you didn’t really like them.
Jasper:
Yabbut, it might be men who are being murdered, which makes that sort of thing more important than whiny bitches whining about how their bodies belong to them and not to whatever dudebrah wants to chew on their legs like any red-blooded man should be able to.
Enselon, thank you for apologizing.
Tyrant:
WTF?! People actually do that?!
…I hate humanity.
Kassad, or any variation thereof is pretty much always a refusal to engage in actual facts.
Vijen the Perpetual Wanker:
I have yet to notice that you’re conscious, cupcake.
Rainer, you really hit all the high notes, didn’t you? “,” deciding that what separates the “” from the “women” is the willingness to put up with entitled fuckstains like you, confusing harassment with “,” “LOL puritanical Americans,” “,” and misogynist dogwhistles like “” and “.” Go back to whatever Roman Polanski fan board you oozed out of.
Jefrir:
And neither should fuckability. You hold the door open for the woman you wouldn’t mind asking to join you for a drink. You also hold the door open for the woman who’s probably invisible to you because she’s fat, she’s old, she walks with a cane (though see ibbica’s links at #192), or she’s the “wrong” ethnicity.
However, if she’s ahead of you and she appears perfectly capable of opening it herself, you don’t run ahead of her and throw it open with a grandiose, “chivalrous” gesture, while standing in the doorway waiting for her to pass by you so you can stare at her ass, then get all pissy because she doesn’t immediately drop to her knees and fellate you.
This is really not rocket science, unless you don’t regard women as anything but dick receptacles.
Lilandra, your concern is noted. As is your complete cluelessness about context.
Who? Do you mean someone who uses a name that people think is not a pseudonym? Because that would be different from, say, Cuttlefish or PhysioProf. And like I said, there are few pseudonymous men, either.
I don’t want him to be given a platform here and then be asked to ignore him or educate him. I’m tired of this shit. I can decide whether to visit someone’s blog or YT channel if I wish, but when every other day I have to see this garbage in the sidebar and know that another welcoming home has been created for the woman-hating trolls here – after the past year – I feel disinclined to bother. You all can invite whomever you wish, but you should be aware of the effects that might have on readers and other bloggers here.
PZ, I never once suggested or thought it was based on feminism. But having standards means that you shouldn’t ignore the plausible effects of bringing someone in who has backwards views on topics of importance when you’re deciding who to feature here.
This was a joke, right? Because you wouldn’t bring in bloggers expecting them to take an anti-feminist line, just like you wouldn’t intentionally bring in racists or homophobes for some sort of “balance,” I assume.
Shorter philipranger:
“Hey, hawt bitches! I’m on your side. Wanna hear a funny joke? What do you call the part around the vagina that makes sandwiches? What? I’m just joking.”
And to add to that advice, if you ever find yourself at an event with an anti-harassment policy and you are considering an action that you are unsure will violate the policy or not, consider the fact you are unsure as being a very reason not to carry out that action. If the question needs to be asked, it will almost certainly be yes, the action would violate the policy, and besides, you should be adhering not only to the letter of the policy but to its spirit.
It’s not just the sexism. His videos on Islam are full of warmongering and, if I hear my dog-whistles correctly, anti-immigrant propaganda.
Ugh, once again I read a post on this topic and cannot stop thinking about how much this reminds me of talking to creationists. The whinging about tone, the constant complaints about how unfair it is, their inability to research a topic before making proclamations (thinking of enselon upthread) and especially the need the continually explain the same things over and over to people that just cannot understand what is being said to them.
Some skeptics confuse me. I think they would likely rip into any creationist, psychic, or other credulous folk that did these same things but it is absolutely fine when sexism is the topic.
And
Oh. I didn’t realize that you were Batman. I’m sorry that you were ever accused of any impropriety. As a Hero of Gotham, you are certainly entitled to any woman here. This discussion is more about you know…non-heroic men. Wusses. That are not similarly entitled.
because how could it be a proper False Equivalence without saying we’re as bad as Rush Limbaugh?
1)It’s Myers, not Meyers
2)I’m sick and tired of this holier-than-thou bullshit from Europeans of various stripes. As a fellow European, let me say that people like you who are being proud of homegrown sexism are fucking vile. And people who use False Equivalence to equate concerns about sexism with Christian Fundamentalism are beneath contempt.
3)”Nobody here understands what elevator-gate was all about – and nobody really cares” is, of course, a fucking lie. Two fucking lies, even.
yes honeycakes. Let’s. Because as we all know, people who are pro-social justice always end up being the embarrassed ones decades down the road.
tonetrolling? how pathetic. no honeybunch, using “bad” words doesn’t say anything about us, but it does say that you’re not well-suited for adult conversation if you can’t take a few mild insults thrown your way.
we judge you by what you write here. if that doesn’t reflect your actual attitudes accurately, well that’s your fault for misrepresenting yourself. Or maybe it does represent you accurately, and you’re just whining because we’re “mean” to you.
oh darling, I assure you that girl/woman does have everything to do with age, since the word “girl” means non-adult woman. And both women and girls can handle a lot more toxic shit that you imagine, but that doesn’t mean they should have to.
:-D
Well after all that, a wise male would shut the hell up, unless he wants a new hole torn in him. One does not dare voice a different opinion on these matters. For me, I would like to find out how women in other non atheist areas, such as politics and business handle the real problem of sexual harassments. That type of information could be of real use to us here in this movement.
And another thing that comes to my mind, is that this movement of ours is still very young, and so are the members, and the celebrity status that goes with our leaders, creates problems for them and for their handling of the harassments. We have some excellent people, but they are still learning how to deal with being in the public eye. Sure some have been around for a fair amount of time, but that is generally not the case.
I wonder how many of those who are rightfully calling for a policy on harassment, have enquired before attending these conferences. The fact is that out there, away from your computer, in the real world, there are people with problems, and the real world does not allow you to block or unfriend a sex pest. You actually have to follow the rules of the real world, and report it to the authorities, and follow it up.
You have to take some responsibly to protect yourself. And I will punch anyone who take that sentence as shifting the blame on to the women, understand!
Commence with the attacks, now.
Thunderfuckwit,
Psst, TF, if you address problems of harassment behind closed doors all “quiet”-like, then people will have no reason to think you have actually addressed the problem. Also, often times, the coolness of one’s head scales with the amount of privilege they have. In other words, those least affected by a problem will be most able to discompassionately discuss it. If the “cooler heads” always prevail, no social justice issues will ever be addressed. Passionate argument =/= wrong side of the issue.
Also, and this bears repeating, go fuck yourself Thunderfoot. You are off to a fantastic start at FTB. First thing I see when visiting your page is that fucking sexist kitchen “joke”. Not funny, not witty, not edgy. Just fucking offensive and stupid.
philipranger #202
Here. You’ll need this.
https://proxy.freethought.online/pharyngula/2012/06/23/tzt-13/comment-page-1/
@ 209
High school student working a closing shift. Won’t see manager until after school the next day. Saw creepy co-worker @ school the next day.
Also, yeah, I’m totally a super hero. Because anyone telling a story where they did something decent is automatically glorifying themselves.
@ 215
True enough. 19 – 23 was the general age group. But typing woman every time gets stale, is there something wrong with saying girl occasionally? Man/Woman, Boy/Girl, I didn’t mean anything by it.
Sadly, she was invited when the network was forming. She didn’t join, so we dodged a bullet. At this point, I’m not entirely confident that she wouldn’t be invited again. Someone could always decide to up the anti-feminist quota.
But then we could always ignore it or educate them. No problem.
because of course the way we measure whether someone is “civilized” is by whether they avoid using “bad words”, rather than by whether they are ethical folks who work towards making society better and fairer for everyone.
@202-
“There are a lot of guys who are total jackasses, with no empathy or consideration for the feelings of others.
I don’t consider myself one of them though. ”
Then why do you consider it okay to hit on women with which you had no previous connection? You’ve changed your story from hitting on an attractive stranger to expressing interest in a women that is part of a social group that you are currently interacting with in a relatively personal basis. Walking down the street, on the other hand, is a highly impersonal situation and thus hitting on women is incredibly inappropriate.
Telling a random woman that her clothing makes her really attractive is not that far separate from the guys petting my hair.
I subscribed to his YouTube channel.
I watched his videos.
I subscribed to his Freethought blog.
I read his first post.
My heart sank.
Goodbye, Thunderf00t.
I’ll take that challenge. I’m in Edmonton. Where are you?
calling adult women “girls” tends to be infantilizing. and infantilization of women is one form of sexism.
Also, the major reasons I’m being so ‘civilised’ right now are because I’ve had three hours of sleep and I’m too tired to be annoyed, one of my foster kittens died this morning and has me all sadded, and I’ve seen so many attempts at “but how about situation x” that all I can muster up for that argument is a general feeling of “This again? Really? Blargh.”
Even I know that one.
this member of the Net Generation yawns at your luddite ways.
chigau (違う)
25 June 2012 at 11:12 am
lilandra
“I support a reasonable anti-harassment policy that is about UNWANTED sexual attention.”
chigau
“How will you know it’s UNWANTED until AFTER it has occured?”
There are a number of responses to what I wrote but this one is different, so I’ll tackle this one first. In this case, Thunder knows this woman and what she will permit already. I am acquainted with Thunderfoot in real life and the woman is my friend.
If it were a picture of an offended woman there would be cause for the alarm him chewing on her leg is generating. I can’t believe how many people didn’t look at that picture critically enough to understand that.
@228
You may not consciously mean anything by it but you do mean something buy it. If you don’t believe me, count the number of times in this thread that someone used “boys” in the way that you used “girls.”
@throwaway
thank you very much!
@180
I think most of us were “scared away” (as in we had rational self-interest) by the behavior of people at conferences. Remember upskirt camera guy and how many women instantly knew who he was because they had seen him serially harass women? That has been going on for years. The shit hit the fan when men found out that women actually tell each other to steer clear of certain men, since most other men don’t do a god damned thing when harassment happens. The ones who notice will usually do some hyper masculine ” do you want me to beat them up!?!?!” act or some other totally worthless thing.
@238 Then why is an action that was pre-determined to be consensual being brought up in the context of unwanted sexual attention/actions?
@ lilandra:
Ok, I can’t speak for anyone else, but I was asking about the use of the phrase, not some sexual fetish. And I don’t think anyone else mind/care about Thunderfoot’s sexual preferences (consensuals, as you said). I just thought that it was a pretty agressive turn of phrase especially given the topic of the post. But if you tell me that is a common expression in English, ok (I am already startled by the expression “hitting on someone”, which I find a rather violent imagery for what it want to describe).
I really, REALLY do! You see, while licking someone’s face chin to forehead (with consent) might be legal, I’m not sure it should be public.
Everybody here did exactly just that: “disagree and voice [their] opinion”. Since no one here have any power to censor Thunderfoot, I don’t really understand what you’re implying. And “I’m not going to read his blog” is not “calling for boycotts”. It is boycotting, which is a fundie tactic, but so is protests, or lobbying. Or talking. It does not make it bad. You do not like something, you don’t participate in it.
I don’t know who made you Europe spokesperson but I don’t remember voting. Unless you just speak for Köln just because you leave there. In that case, Paris says “Fuck you!”. Asshat.
philipranger
I’ll say it again. USE MY FUCKING NAME or quote what you’re replying to, or both.
If you had reason to believe that your manager would listen to her complaint and do something about it, then you were in the wrong for taking violent action, unless your coworker was in immediate danger. Death Wish is not a documentary.
The Justicar was attempting the very high degree-of-difficulty and seldom–if ever–successfully landed Reverse Ironic Double Troll w/ Half-Twist.
He does not believe what he types. It is enough for him that it is he doing the typing.
This is why I’m working on the Brownian Reactor, the world’s first 100% efficient, 0% polluting power source! It can power anything from a nation to an RC helicopter, but mostly I’ll be using it in my Titanium Alloy Man suit.
I was gonna go with Iron Man, but a certain eccentric playboy dilettante gazillionaire asshole took it. Besides, iron rusts and he pops his rivets whenever he hits an iceberg.
phil @228:
Intent isn’t fucking magic, you are equating women with children, this is demeaning, so don’t fucking do it.
Oh, and @all this “I don’t want consensual behavior outlawed!”
Please point me at where people are saying something akin to, “Man knows woman. Woman knows man. Man knows woman would be fine if he did X to her. Man does X to woman. Woman is in fact fine with him doing X to her . . . I want X outlawed.”
Seriously..
@philipranger
Here, I’ll answer, because I’ve had male friends who’ve asked the same questions.
Can a man approach me and compliment me on my outfit? Ok, sure. People have complimented my outfit before and walked away. But I also have to wonder about their ulterior motives for approaching me.
I don’t know how to make it any clearer: NOT ALL MEN are douchebags or rapists, but I CANNOT afford to NOT be careful. I can’t. Because if something bad happens to me, I will be accused of having led the man on. So you know what, every time a man makes a comment about my appearance, a red flag MUST come up. I will gladly say that most times, nothing bad happens. But maybe 10% percent of the time, I’ve had to look for an exit sign because of their insistence.
I’m not against flirting, but I would hope the flirting starts on a friendly tone. “Hi, are you enjoying the conference? That speaker was really awesome. If you liked this lecture, check out this book…” Because then you’re talking about something we might have in common. The fact that you think I’m attractive is nice, but it’s a one-way conversation. It’s all about YOU and the way you perceive me. Good flirting is when you allow the other person the safe space to tell you about themselves, at their own pace. Can you see the difference?
P.S. Hello Pharyngulites! I comment rarely here because English is not my native language and you guys are sooo fast at commenting! Even though I sound fluent, I might not grasp all the nuances of the conversation, so forgive me in advance if I misunderstand some things.
Is there a betting pool on TF’s next actions yet?
I’m wagering on the “I struck a nerve” brand tone troll post, although rage quitting from FTB is another possibility.
More to the OT, TF’s views on this were much better hidden than AmazingAtheist’s views. I shouldn’t be caught off guard, yet it threw me anyways. :S
Yes, I was joking.
The anti-feminist quota here is set to zero.
Let me guess, you are American right ? Or just maybe you are British. The hang-up about nudity is pretty telling. Anything consensual goes, so long as no one could possibly catch sight of a nipple.
You sound like such an inquisitive boy. (By the way…
)
do you call black men “boy” or do you understand how infantalizing is wrong when it happens to a man?
lilandra,
Care to mention who you think you are arguing with? You’ve been asked multiple times, where is it being proposed that consensual behavior be banned?
Thunderfoot missed the point if he thinks that the ebil feminazis are trying to ban consensual flirting, or stop him from playfully biting his friend’s leg (given as true what you are saying, that this was all consensual).
Unless you want to link to where people are rallying against consensual behavior, stop bringing it up.
Your English seems pretty good to me, and you certainly seem to have a better understanding of the issues than many who do not have the excuse of a language barrier.
And welcome to Pharyngula!
I’m guessing he’ll go into some posturing about how FTB doesn’t really stand for freethought and he’s being punished for not agreeing with the hive mind. This is way more obvious in the YouTube video than the post. He may also try to spin some of the comments into death threats so he can talk about how he’s bravely bringing you the truth, even though it may cost him his life.
@ 231
Well, to be fair, all I said in my first controversial post was “an attractive stranger.”
Maybe we have a couple of mutual friends, but if I’ve never seen or heard of you before, I consider you a stranger.
I’ll admit, my initial comment left a great deal of room for personal interpretation, but I don’t quite see how I’ve changed my story.
Also “telling a random woman that her clothing makes her really attractive” is not what I said. Complementing a dress (ie: “that is a really nice dress”) says nothing about her body or general level of attractiveness. It simply says that I liked what she was wearing. Often times, I’ll just give a complement, they’ll respond with some sort of “thanks” or something longer, and thats the end of it.
I’ve got a green Tshirt with a Brachiosaurus on it, with the words “I’ll be back” written on the front. I’m not sure why, but I’m often told by strangers how much they like the shirt. Sometimes from girls, sometimes from guys.
I like getting such complements, so I share the positive compliments whenever I feel the urge.
I shit. A lot.
The are very few situations in which it is appropriate to call a woman a girl. An internet forum is not one of them.
lilandra #238
You said
I said
You said
Now my question is: with this “reasonable anti-harassment policy” that you support, how will you know it’s UNWANTED until AFTER it has occured?
It’s more of a process than a one-time happening for both events really. It happens every time we let the sexist idiots out to speak.
Just so long as care is taken not to knock over people’s drinks!
why the fuck did you ask why “girl” is inappropriate when used to describe adult women, if you’re just going to ignore it and do it anyway? (FYI, “girl” is not the equivalent of “guy”)
I declare this thread to be The Official Brownian Appreciation Thread. You are awesome Brownian, thank you. I have enjoyed many hearty guffaws due to your posting.
those of you who have been looking for Scented Nectar brand merch are finally in luck.
Batman:
I dunno. Your story had fuckall to do with anything as far as I can tell. But don’t worry. Logical coherence isn’t something that is required from gallant types like yourself.
Maybe you can turn your attention to Balstrome, clearly a menace to the people of Gotham who’d rather not be punched. Through the internet or whatever.
—————————————————–
Balstrome: I’m in Edmonton too! You’ll find me right behind Brownian*.
—————————————————–
Lilandra: TF posted the picture as a reassurance.
“Lookamee nibbling a leg consensually! Everyone happy! No more fighting, please?”
This really just demonstrates how pathetically unaware of the whole clusterfuck TF is. And also maybe demonstrates that he really doesn’t care one way or the other if women feel comfortable at these things. But hey. He’s a fun-loving scoundrel.
*Sucker
@257, but you didn’t just mention the dress. You mentioned how it brought out her eyes- hence, clothing making her attractive.
The changing your story was by adding setting qualifiers. “An attractive stranger” is in no way, shape, or form, the same as “an attractive stranger to whom I have been introduced because we have mutual friends and we are currently at a bar socialising with those same mutual friends”
If you can’t understand why that is so, that is a problem.
It’s not.
It was apparently chosen because it was a weird thing to say.
Indeed. It becomes questionable whether the attractive stranger then is still a stranger.
Why does being a strong anti-creationist outweigh/ make up for Thunderfoot using this platform to make anti-feminist rants? I think it is overly generous to assume TF will be able to be educated on this issue and the issue of his Islamophobia. We have seen how difficult it is to get through to people who are willfully ignorant (and that is how TF is coming across to me here). Should we expect to see more posts like this in the future? I fucking hope not. If he is going to put his foot in his mouth like this often, he is definitely not worth putting up with (despite the great work he does tearing apart creationists).
In my opinion, which means nothing much on this topic, Thunderfoot was a mistake.
I lol’d.
Spot on.
So it’s more of an ideal quota than a reality-based one, I guess. Or there’s been some allowance for exceeding it. I hope the limits have truly been reached.
Sorry if I’ve sounded angry or demanding. This has been deeply unpleasant, and every time I start to think progress has been made, something like this happens. Sometimes it just feels unreal and absurd that we’re having to deal with this in 2012.
Can we please play SpokesBingo? There’s yet another ambulatory vegetative case taking my ‘nym literally.
I love it so!
I’m so tempted to change my ‘nym to Official SpokesMensRightsAdvocate or Official SpokesERVSupporter.
Chas: I own a lot of suspenders so I can never really get enough flair. Thanks for the tip.
@ 243 (Daz)
I know slamming someone up against a locker isn’t taking the moral high ground. Neither is threatening him with physical violence if the problem continued. I’m not saying it is.
It felt good though, after he lied to my face about being a creep. And I’d do it again in a heart-beat. I’ve got a mother & a sister, and I’d gladly pummel any idiot who refused to leave them alone.
@ 248 (deviyates)
I definitely understand where you’re coming from on the “question why they’re approaching me” part. It’d be weird if I randomly walked 30ft just to complement a girl/guy, then walked right back to where I was before.
Complements usually come about when I’m already standing close to someone for whatever reason. Usually if I’m in line next to them at a store, or some other similar reason.
I smell genderpolicing:
Woman=dress huh?
Would you compliment me wearing the same dress as a crossdresser?*
Of fucking course not.
*I am one such individual.
@275 – Actually… I’d find both of those to be exceedingly awkward. Maybe the second one moreso because now I’m stuck near you and the awkwardness can simply build in the silence.
I was going to chastise you for advertising ScentedNectar’s crap here, Chas, but then I looked…and it’s all so tasteless and badly designed that I realized it’s more of an anti-advertisement.
philipranger:
Your intent may be harmless, but in the wider context of a sexist society where women are generally not assumed to have the same right to bodily autonomy as men, the reciever has no idea if you’re just being friendly or a creep.
Consider asking someone who’s first language is not English what their accent is. You may mean it to be a friendly conversation opener, but consider that they get that question all the time from people who aren’t necessarily friendly in intent, and might just like to catch their bus one day without some yahoo pressing him- or herself on them for intimate details of their life?
In terms of privilege, women and visible ethnic minorities don’t have the right to be left unbothered.
It sounds like a cool shirt. But of course, as a man, you’re not in the same boat. You’re not automatically considered ‘different enough to be a conversation piece’. Change shirts, and you’ll be left alone. Women can’t do this. Because if such a woman were to not wear an attractive outfit, simply wishing to go where she likes to do what she wants/needs to do without being ‘complimented’ she’ll attract comments of the other sort.
It’s not an apt comparison at all.
skeptifem:
Are you kidding? Do you know how many of your comments I’ve read that make me turn to my inner Brownian of fifteen years ago (or ashamedly more recent) and <headdesk>? Thank you.
Seconded. I think half of my posts that are in response to a comment from Brownian start with, “exactly”.
Urrghhh!I can’t believe I clicked the link at #265. Bucket-time…
I thought every thread was The Official Brownian Appreciation Thread.
Who said that’s a problem? After all, the pitizens need something to shovel.
You need a dose of robert jensen, stat. Being A Man and Using Violence or Intimidation to solve problems is not such a great thing to do. Wouldn’t it be so much nicer for your friend if she could solve a problem without relying on a man for intimidation? It is a lot like getting your car fixed as a woman- I always bring a dude with me so they don’t fuck me over. The dude coming with me is helping me navigate a really fucked up system that he directly benefits from, he isn’t creating a world where I don’t need a penis-american to represent me when I am just trying to get my car fixed. The dude that goes with me doesn’t expect a pat on the back for anything, he actually thinks about how shitty it is to need representation for every day problems.
I like Official SpokesMRA. I’m pronouncing it spokesmrah.
Also: SpokesBrah!
How will you know it’s UNWANTED until AFTER it has occured?
You can ASK at the point where you’re uncertain how to proceed.
And “no” means no and “maybe” means ask again later when you hit an uncertain point and “yes” means go ahead. The consent dance is not rocket science. Even a completely socially awkward person can do it, if they try. Because it’s important.
@ 267 (rowanvt)
I apologize for the ambiguity in my initial statement, but I think the word ‘stranger’ includes a wide variety of people.
That being said, I should have clarified more in my initial post. My mistake.
@ 269 (Matt)
I’m not sure about you, but I’d still call them a stranger. Simply knowing their name & some of their friends tells me very little about them.
But again, I did make a very ambiguous statement by simply using the word stranger. So, for what little its worth, my bad on that part.
Anyways, while this has been fun, I’ve gotta grab a replacement bike tube. I’ll be back in maybe two hours.
philipranger, please reread this paragraph and consider how much this suggests that these issues of sexism only seem important such as they offend your sense of what it means to be a man.
I certainly do get this, having had those reactions in the past (and still do to some degree because patriarchy hurts men too), but it’s not about you.
And that includes getting huffy not because some ass is a creep to women, but because he lied to you.
Or getting huffy not because some ass is a creep to women, but because he’s bothering women that are important to you.
It’s not about you, and your sense of macho male ego, but about women and their ability to live their lives without having to be constantly assessing threats à la rowanvt’s excellent comments. Your desire to beat up anyone who threatens women you’ve deemed to be under your protection isn’t helping anything.
Oh my goodness, PZ is so right. I’m snorfling at my desk looking over StinkingNitComb’s swag. Oh lord—she’s got like 264-dozen “buttons” that all say the same thing. It’s all so ugly I literally hallucinated the site in Comic Sans.
Balstrome
Try google. Every company I’ve worked for in the last 20 years has had harassment policies. Lots of them are available on the interwebs.
awwwww! who knew a post about hateful sexism would turn into such a love fest?
@philipranger:
We’ve no less than four times told you to cut it with the “girl.” It’s demeaning and infatilizing. “Girl” is not the opposite of “guy.” Use “woman.”
“SpokesBrah” would enrage a much larger subset of dudebros. Both are sufficiently mocking, though.
@286- If we’ve been introduced, and I know their name, and we have mutual friends…. this is what I now call an acquaintance.
@292-
Is there something wrong with me that every time I see ‘brah’, my brain parses ‘bra’ and thus I get an image of a bra in my head instead of a person?
I know! I saw this a couple days ago on the “Periodic Table of Swearing” thread.
However, I didn’t just hallucinate Comic Sans, I hallucinated an entire musical: ScentedNectar and the Amazing Technicolor Shitshow.
*Writes screed. Refreshes page. Reads Brownian’s (#287) reply to the same comment. Deletes screed*
“What Brownian said.”
lilapwl—thank you for the inspiration!
Cool ‘nym brah.
If each comment had a reply button it would be easier to reply separately. I copied and pasted each comment asking a question but my computer shut down and I lost what I had done already. Now there are more comments. I will address each and every one, but it will take a minute.
Philipranger,
No hurry, I’m sure we will manage just fine in your absence. I bet most of us would even have survived you disappearing without telling us what you will be doing and when you will be back.
Do you recall when you said this,
I do. Trolling discussions of sexism makes one a fuckwit. Are you a fuckwit, Philip? Don’t answer, it is obvious to all those who have read what you have already written.
————————————————-
rowanvt,
That’s funny, every time I see ‘brah’, I smell Axe.
did you guys know that camera guy has his own merchandise too? its from his run for congress. I think he removed all the ones that were spelled incorrectly though (“prosparity” and “inginuity” come to mind), so it isn’t as fun as it used to be.
I was responding to this comment…
Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts
25 June 2012 at 11:51 am
lilandra,
“Care to mention who you think you are arguing with? You’ve been asked multiple times, where is it being proposed that consensual behavior be banned?”
What a weird analogy. Bars certainly do have a code of conduct, even if they don’t post it on the wall somewhere. Has Thunderf00t never heard of bouncers?
Ewww. Let’s hope that never happens here. For my sanity’s sake.
Ok! Let’s try to clear this up for those who are a wee bit confused.
Man; Woman
Guy; Gal
Boy; Girl
Male; Female
Gentlemen; Ladies
In general, it is a good idea to use words from the same line. For example, if you call someone a “man,” it is probably not a good idea to flip lines down to “girl” or “female.” Instead, if you use “man,” choose “woman.” If you find you are flipping from one line to another, ask yourself if you do (not would, DO) find yourself flipping the opposite direction. For example, if you are inclined to say, “men and girls,” do you also say “women and boys?” Do other people use “women and boys?” If the answer is “no,” please reconsider your use of terms.
Seconded
I find it weird that this discussion is still going on. I am also surprised that I am surprised, the world has not become “totally different ” over night after all .
I can understand some of the reaction I guess I am myself not the most socially adept person around. I would not like to feel that I would be punished for being inept nor would I want to be in any place were any kind of behavior be tolerated by “the rules” But really what would anyone say if it was being argued for the right to use racist or classist actions or speech be condoned?
In some places it has been known that if someone decides to “bight on a women’s leg” they might find themselves waking up in an alley wondering how they got there. I understand that that is not proposed as a model for the skeptic movement.
There is already a bikers movement.
I wonder why I am surprised that just because some people may share my unbelief or share some other understanding of things that they would not share everything. I wonder where my reasoning fails because there are glaring areas where I see some others reason fail utterly.
being a grown up is hard work!
uncle frogy
@Ms. Daisy Cutter
There was a landmark court case in Germany.
A family wanted a refund for their stay because of the presence of handicapped kids (the google translation of the first paragraph is borked and says the opposite in the original).
The ruling was against of course, and it made quite a splash in the media.
I may be wrong, but doesn’t the disqus system allow for a reply button, but the reply goes to the bottom of the page instead of nesting? I could live with summat like that.
That, oddly, makes me feel much better. It’s just so…bad. My mood is lightened!
And ONE of those things you can do to protect yourself is to SPEAK OUT against harassment and victim-blaming, in order to change the culture so that the risk is reduced for everyone, including yourself.
@ 291
Actually, strictly speaking, “Woman” isn’t the opposite of “Guy”, but “Man”; the words have different levels of formality.
Perhaps “Gal” would be an closer opposite? or did we rule that word demeaning? I’m not sure. :S
Regardless, “Girl” isn’t appropriate.
What is wrong with “Scented Nectar”? Does she have a back story?
Good ol’ Amercian inginuity.
Naked Bunny with a Whip,
Apparently not. Even if bars had no code of conduct, so the fuck what? We should refrain from objecting to harassment at bars because…
Thunderfuckwit,
What is this shit? It is the naturalistic-fallacy-of-bar-etiquette. Bars are places where men can harass at will, therefore we shouldn’t complaining about harassment or try to address it. Am I misunderstanding something here? Wtf?
No one wants to take away your ability to have fun, flirt, and have an all around fun and raucous time. So long as your idea of a good time does not involve fucking harassing people.
I wish I knew. That level of depraved indifference, lying, and outright viciousness does cry out for an explanation.
Nice list, Erista (aka Eris), but in case philipranger pops back in to JAQ-off, can I add that restrooms labelled “Buoys” and “Gulls” in nautical-themed restaurants are probably okay (even if you assume “Gulls” refers to “Gals” rather than “Girls”, though I make no promises as to the freshness of the “Catch of the Day” on the ship’s wheel-shaped menu board.
Well said, Amphiox, and one of the reasons I do so is so that the cost of reporting incidents (“Fill out these forms in quintuplicate and we’ll have someone get back to you in a month or so, and BTW do you always wear skirts that short?”) is lessened.
In this respect, the real world in some places is light-years ahead of the skeptically skeptic’s community.
But fucking with harassing people (or ‘harassers’ for short) is a hella good time.
@philipranger:
That kind of argument piss me off a bit. You might be sincere but it sounds like you asked sarcastically a question you thought would not raise a problem to score a cheap point about where to draw the line on sexist compliment. Once people started to object to it and explain why, you try to backpedal saying “complementing a woman on her clothes is not about her appearance, I really liked the fabric” or something. As if we did not live in a society that overwhelmingly equates a woman’s worth with her physical appearance.
Her eyes are part of her body. You did not say “I like like your car!” or “your coffee table really bring the room together”. In this discussion, are you really surprised about what people think you implied?
————————————————————————————
@Deviyates:
You said it! I’ve been lurking for quite some time, but I did not expect the comment to go so fast. It is fun though…
Re; Scented tap Dancer’s schwag. I said it before and I will now repeat myself : the slimepit are jealous that they can’t be part of PZ’s horde. Evidence? How much of that page is desparately trying to draw attention to that fact?
LOL. Poor slimepitters.
Just look at the level of approval she gets for being a token, there isn’t anything wrong with her. She made a different deal with patriarchy than I did, and thats her decision to make. It is like the kind of approval women in puritan cultures get for being wives and mothers- its conditional, but its better than what you would get for fighting back. When you are around a bunch of scum buckets who shit on women all day but they worship *you* for being so speshul I am sure it feels pretty nice. It must be easy to think of all of us as whiners or too deficient in awesomeness to hack it.
I was “the chick” in groups of nerds a lot back in the day. It isn’t like you calculate out the risk vs benefits of compliance in such a fashion any more than people consciously decide that dressing like people in magazines or on tv will make them popular. They judge such things to naturally be superior to the alternatives, instead of taking into account the social programming that lead so many people to that conclusion.
Heheheh. I picture you on your knees stroking a malformed little creature with two tiny butts and one Barbie arm covered in a glistening fluid as it tries to drag itself to you for skritches.
“Whooooo’s a widdle slimepitter? Who’s mommy’s widdle slippery slimepitter?”
“Gerrrgleflgh n’ah perdlerdlerdlerdlerdle.”
XD
Brownian,
Agreed, though it is not possible/safe for everyone to do so. I try to give people shit IRL because having the privilege to do so safely is probably one of the best perks of my privilege I have found.
Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle,
Re the slimepitters: This is when I usually start to actually feel a little bad for the pitters. But that feeling of sympathy never lasts long. I just remember the shit they say and the harm they are causing and all sympathy is replaced with a feeling of disgust.
Re the Schwag: Now that is LOL-worthy. The grey-on-grey buttons are fucking fantastic. The design is as ugly as the message that is being supported.
@Deviyates:
I missed your comment at first, but kassad pointed me to it.
Just awesome. Well said.
If I were the recipient [read: target] of your “complements,” I would be creeped out and annoyed and would consider changing to a different line if I could do so without inconveniencing other shoppers.
A comment on a person’s mode of dress is a comment on appearance. A person should not speak to another person about his or her appearance unless there is already a relationship established. It is too personal. It doesn’t matter what you think or how you feel. A “complement” [sic!] like this conveys the following: “I notice how you look, and it makes me feel good. I’m not going to even bother to try to get to know you, I’m just giong to just comment on what I like about your appearance, because it gratifies me.” And that narcissistic perspective is the cause of the outrage that a woman who is “hit on” rejects the “hit” which, is, of course, ingeneously [/sarcasm] framed as a “complement” but is really a very selfish form of verbal groping.
The very term “hit on” implies an assault, a one-sided event. Think about that.
So, wait, he’s saying that all the trolls who hang out in the slimepit are in Abby Smith’s vagina? Like, all at once? Um…purely as a matter of fact…how? O.o
And it’s not like it’d matter if they were, but from his misogynistic perspective, isn’t he “calling her a slut?”
Poor Balstrome. Teh ebyl feminazis are silencing him.
Also, he’s another one who can’t be arsed to do his homework before commenting, nor does he understand that the internet is part of the “real world.”
Philip:
So women’s desire not to be infantilized loses out to your desire to “spice up” your writing. Noted.
Outside of racist contexts — which should provide you with a clue, though I doubt it will — how often do you see grown-ass men referred to as “boys,” versus how often you see grown-ass women referred to as “girls”?
Your words are perceived in a wider social context that renders your intent mostly meaningless.
And that same social context means there’s a major difference between a man or a woman complimenting a strange guy on his T-shirt design, and a man coming up to a strange woman and complimenting how her clothing color brings out that of her eyes. The latter carries all sorts of implications that the former, usually, does not.
And all you’re proving to the idiot is that you’re defending “your property,” and he should go find himself a woman who doesn’t have a mayyyyunnnn to protect her.
Lilandra, you dense shithead, he’s saying that he’s got the right to chew on the leg of ANY woman. Using the photo of the one woman as an illustration doesn’t mean he was limiting his “right” to that one woman. Also, learn to use blockquotes.
Tyrant, that’s fucking disgusting. I’m glad, at least, they got slapped down.
Thundershite:
Charming.
And as for the naturalistic fallacy of bar etiquette… freaking biker bars don’t let dudebrahs get away with that shit.
Josh, I’ve done a number of different bingo cards (ahem, remember this one? ‘Twas moi), so if you ever want a SpokesBingo card, just ask.
To those All-Too-Often Hyper-Politically-Correct-KillJoys:
For those of you who cannot see (by looking the photo) that this is nothing more than
HARMLESS FUN BETWEEN 2 CONSENTING ADULTS
==> I can assure you, with 100% CERTAINTY that:
a) THIS WOMAN WAS ENJOYING HERSELF and
b) this was nothing more than HARMLESS HORSEPLAY BETWEEN FRIENDS, and
c) this (non-event) occurred IN A BAR
d) *AFTER* THE CONFERENCE
e) was COMPLETELY CONSENSUAL , and
f) this same woman IS smart enough to know whether or not she’s having fun or not without anyone’s puritanical meddling, and
e) I know that the “Tasty Leg” lady in the photo thinks that some of you do not understand the difference between harassment and FUN and need to bone up on the subject. (That’s called a joke, another form of harmless fun.)
HOW DO I KNOW THIS WITH 100% CERTAINTY?
===> I am the woman in the photo and I had a BLAST that night!
Yes, that’s my leg and YES, that’s me, smiling and laughing (which should have clued you in).
So, lighten up on Thunderf00t. ALL of his attention that night was invited and thoroughly enjoyed.
If you have a problem with two adults flirting then I neither accept nor respect your opinion regarding this.
Also, it’s just plain none of your business. Meddle elsewhere. You are looking foolish in this!
Sincerely, Laura J. Brown Linder.
PS I’m on facebook as LauraJane FreedMinds InfoShare and yes, I still have two intact legs.
@lonelyshadow:
Er, yes, that’s correct too.
I was more or less saying that it’s respectful to say “women” rather than “girls” like was in his original posts, with “guys” then “gals” would be the proper opposite.
laurajanefreedminds infoshare
Were you under the impression that our only objection to TF telling us what the fuck we’re allowed to concern ourselves with was one photo of you having your leg bitten?
Please leave. Your ego’s blocking the light.
@laurajanefreedminds infoshare
Your missing the point, in its completeness, is only rivaled by your verbosity in doing so.
@laurajanefreedminds infoshare
As I have said before: please explain to me how bringing up an example of a consensual interaction is supposed to fit in with a discussion about unwanted, non-consensual interactions. Because no one, NO ONE is saying that consenting, enjoyed actions between two adults is a bad thing. If there is no reason to bring up the consenting, wanted action, then it simply falls into the “I am going to minimize non-consensual, unwanted interactions to consensual, wanted ones.”
So, please enlighten me.
Laura Jane of the inability to use paragraph breaks and diarrhea of the ALL-CAPS, as I just said to the equally stupid Lilandra, it does not matter to the current situation that you let Thunderdouche chew on your leg, because he is stating that he has the “right” to chew on any woman’s leg.
No, but seriously. I want you to imagine that a woman is arguing that men shouldn’t slap women on their butts without getting permission first. Then a man pops in and brings up this totally great situation where he slapped the butt of a woman (whom he knew well enough to discern that she wouldn’t have have a problem with being slapped on the butt by him), and then she was totally fine with it!
Can people not understand how that would be profoundly out of place and minimizing? Can they not understand that bringing up this situation at the very least seems to be arguing that slapping women on the butt without concern for their consent is fine?
You all realize, do you not, that it’s now an Official Meme that Pharyngulites are screeching up a storm claiming:
a. That Thunderfoot literally bites unwilling women’s legs.
b. We’re so that we didn’t understand that photograph wasn’t an actual cannibal rape in progress.
It’s enough that someone — anyone who doesn’t like this conversation — said it. It’s now considered true. It will pop up in every subsequent blog post. It will be tossed about incredulously by people who are just dropping in the conversation and are treated to how stupid/crazy we are. Somebody like Greta or Stephanie will calmly, clearly, and economically point out that no one needs to be concerned because that didn’t actually happen.
This will provoke louder shouting and more accusations of Puritanism—because when the thing you think happened didn’t happen, that just means it really happened.
This is why I fucking hate so many of you.
My best friend is black.
I got laid at an atheist conference once. Therefore Laura Jane. Or Thunderdolt. It’s all so confusing.
@ 255 Matt Penfold -> Thanks so much!
@ 318 Kassad -> Yeah, I can’t see myself commenting too often! Too fast for me! By the time I post something, I’ve realised a) someone said it better already b) someone said it better already :D
I’ll be lurking again later. Here in Montreal, it’s moving week so plenty of things to do!
Just A quick note to those idiots who are saying that this kind of stuff doesn’t happen in Europe and that us Europeans have got all this behind us and can’t understand what all the fuss is about…
As a Brit I can tell you that this is very much a problem we have in Europe, you do not speak for all Europeans, and this is very much an important issue that needs to be addressed anywhere and everywhere.
Stop with this holier than though superiority crap while claiming to speak for an entire continent worth of people because we sure as hell do not all agree with you.
laurajanefreedminds,
You. Fucking. Fail. Come back when you have time to read what our objections to Thunderfoot’s post actually are.
@Brownian/337
Checkmate, my friend, checkmate. My foolish, emotional words have been foiled by your glorious exercise of logic.
To the vagina-cave to plot my next dastardly move!
And cue accusations of tribalism and lack of civility…
He has decided ahead of time that everyone concerned about the issue is just whining about nothing. He can’t construct the solution as being reasonable with such a starting point, he has decided that sexual harassment policies are what he *imagines* them to be, meaning a tome of acceptable and unacceptable behaviors according to The Feminist Overlords. He assumes his consentual biting would be outlawed and then gets all outraged.
I can see how its connected, from the point of view of an ignorant fucknut. You can’t write this much about an issue out of ignorance and be interested in hearing a different opinion, thats for damn sure. I would be (pleasantly) shocked if he ever expressed interest in what has really happened and been said about harassment at conferences.
Is anyone fighting the good fight over there?
You joined Europe recently ?
*runs*
You could try the GnumannMethod(tm) – it’s the supersecret of never hitting refresh ;)
(Joking aside (and wowing to refresh more often) – even though you think somebody said it better your voice might be welcomed by some. As far as you’re not saying exactly the same as someone else, you’re contributing. And from the small sample size here, you have some good things to say in you. Speed might come with practice).
Dunno, but from the first time I can remember her posting, something struck me as extremely wrong. I can’t quite remember when, but I’m pretty sure this was pre-egate.
But would you let them use your bathroom?
@skeptifem
I think it’s a lost cause. If you know a good exterminator maybe.
*bwarf*
I dunno really, I tried to put in a couple of hopefully (de)constructive comments – but the unholy trifecta of comment threading, rampant idiotic sexism defence and Scented Nectar made me lose the will to
liveread any further. (Ok, the two last ones are mainly the same thing, but for some irrational reason I got a special dislike for SN).This may be a mistake, but I just found this while I was surfing Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_1zoX5Ax9U
Coffee!
I rather lost will after seeing the “You’re saying women NEVER lie?” straw canard again over there.
Ouch, I missed that one. Just as well – I don’t like to go berserk in the house of someone I don’t know and don’t want to know.
Dear laura,
I know, I know, 328 posts is a lot to read, but please, next time, READ THE THREAD before trying to post something as willfully obtuse, blind, privileged, and nonsensical as what you just did.
It will help reduce the chance of making an utter fool of yourself again, as you have just done here.
laura cross posted the same shit to TF’s post. I don’t think she is reading responses.
@deviyates:
That’s exactly it! I’m guessing your native language is french (Montréal is a great city by the way), like me. So by the time, you read every post, started your own, reread it to be sure you did not said something stupid, then reread it again to check your english (and did not gendered something that should not be… damn french!), you’re 30 posts behind, 5 of which made your point more eloquentely than you did.
Isn’t it annoying when people are intelligent and articulate? :)
But FtB is a great place to learn, and I think that posting will improve that. I’ll try to keep up, and you should too!
————————————————————————————————
@laurajanefreedminds
Thanks for clearing up nothing. As for “everyone here is a prude, puritan, whoa whoa whoa”… Really? Not even gonna try to address the fact that nobody condemn the practice (or any other consensual sexual practice BTW) in this thread? Then I guess it is nice of you to update us on your evening at the convention.
@Katherine
Of course. You are absolutely correct to state that women is better; its just that the phrase “Guys and girls” came about for the reason of alliteration, and as a result suggesting that they use “Women” instead of “girls” isn’t the best advice, as it just doesn’t roll across the tongue as well, which of course leads to using the better sounding, but inappropriate option.
Of course, this would require that he actually listen to your advice or even take it into consideration, which he is either unwilling or unable to do, so this is all a moot point anyways. :P
Less OT:
Thank goodness for Pharyngula. I find it very difficult to actually believe that I once believed the MRA bullcrap, but I did. Lurking before stating something stupid was definitely for the best.
Dana Hunter has a righteous post up addressed to Russell Blackford:
https://proxy.freethought.online/entequilaesverdad/2012/06/25/surely-we-have-some-real-threat-assessment-experts-in-this-community-2/
Yes, LauraJaneFreedminds. Note what I said.
That’s the point. No one is trying to tell mutually consenting adults what to do or not do.
deviyates,
Smart people tend to undervalue their own contributions. Often it helps to write it out your own way; even if you’re sure “other people have already said it better”, that still doesn’t mean their way of putting it will appeal to the same set of readers as yours might.
Oh, no! This can only mean that
[Dramatic pause for effect]
Thunderf00t has already eaten her eyes!
@135 Rainer: Sprich für Dich selbst. (Speak for yourself.)
Well…that was horribley dissapointing. I understand someone wanting to have dissenting views from the so-called “Free from Thought Blogs” horde (lol, you know someone makes that up are most likely not very much into thought themselves)…but posting something that caters to the worst kind of insipid trolls and bigotry, is not something I consider reasonable or rational…or even smart. Just sickening. I’ll guess I’ll remove Thundef00t from my bookmarks until further notice. And I was really looking forward to his blog too! /sigh
Bad faith != confusion.
Sometimes when I’m reading the comments, I see Brownian is next when I page down.
Usually I swallow whatever is in my mouth and then look.
It just worked.
Not sure, but I remember her from here:
https://proxy.freethought.online/xblog/2011/09/29/the-magic-of-reality/
I recall thinking that Greg Laden shot at Dawkins was kind of a cheap one and ended up changing my mind out of shear distaste for Scented Nectar. The defense of “Dear Muslima” was not somthing that endeared her to me, to say the least…
Does not look like a delightful individual.
How large is your broken keyboard-bill now Brownian?
Is it worth the effort making a claim, or should I just do tricks in the ghey seks queue until I can afford a new one?
@Brownian
That is an unjust and slanderous accusation! He could have eaten her fingers, you know. THEN HOW WOULD SHE TYPE?!?!?!
What a barbarian. No manners.
Everyone knows you save the eyes for last. Jesus, just how gauche can one be?
Once I outlaw all sex everywhere, you’ll find you’ll have all sorts of extra disposeable income.
But really, my goal is just to make sure that all skeptic/atheist gatherings are as little fun as possible, and eventually end due to lack of interest. Because you know who enjoys being around like minded people?
Fundies.
Tasty cannibals?
Speaking of men / women, boys / girls, what’s a good informal term for a woman or group of women? There are plenty to choose from for men: guys, blokes, lads, etc. Are there female equivalents? Ladies is formal, the equivalent of gentlemen, so to use it casually sounds either irritated or ironic. I know better than to call them girls (unless they actually ARE girls). “Gal” is another word that sounds too odd to be used as anything other than an ironic tone. Then there are all the sexist and belittling words, and let’s not even go there.
The “everyone here is a prude” thing makes me laugh. I rather doubt I am the only person here that has gone to quite a number of rather extreme parties and enjoys some distinctly non-prudish things and is rather open about it and would like others to be comfortable talking about these issues.
In my experience the people that dislike the message PZ is promoting here are often rather prudish and sex negative when it comes to women taking charge of their own sexuality, and are certainly are not above slut shaming.
It’s true. I’ve been around on the internets a medium time, and its been my experience that the more people use terms like CANNIBAL the less valid their arguments are likely to be.
“woman” and “women”
Any good cannibal knows to lay of the mind of the people you are eating!
This message is brought to you from CFKUA (Cannibals For Kuru Awareness).
Yes, “woman” and “women” are perfectly fine words. I use them all the time.
There are times, however, when I would like to use a word which is informal without being disrespectful. Fill in the blank for “I met this really cool _____ the other day”. For men, I could say “guy”. In that context, “man” would seem just a little formal. Same goes for woman / women.
philipranger @ 228:
Perhaps, but if that is what you mean, that is what you must say.
Eris @ 247
Agreed. The closest I’ve seen is “don’t scare the horses in the streets,” and I’m totally down with the non-dog-whistle version of that.
laura @ 328:
Well, no one does have a problem with that, so we’re good.
@377
I am sure if we invented one it would become an insult eventually. “woman” can be used as an insult, after all (“don’t be such a woman about it”)
Look, it’s a fact that cannibals like to eat brains. Probably has something to do with our evolutionary history.
Basically, this is what I see here: Cannibals, if you’re interested in a brain gastronomically—too bad.
Don’t come and say we didn’t warn you when you can’t speak because of the spasms.
And make at least sure it’s a good brain and cook it properly.
Absolutely no chilled MRA-brain. I know we can’t prove that prions and MRAism is linked, but it just seems so darn likely.
Scuse my ignorance plz… how is “don’t scare the horses” a dog-whistle? I just thought it referenced newfangled scary automobiles.
Hey, brains are the best part of a carrion, full of tasty fat, just like butter. Ask any small rodent. >_>
Uh, okay. I suppose I should stay away from improperly cooked fishes’ lungs, too? Or is this a colloquial name for an extant dish, like prairie oysters or buffalo wings?
You could just say “punch me repeatedly in the scrotum, even if I beg you to stop”.
I find that “woman” is so much less stale than that.
L-OK. Since the demand is greatest to answer this question…
Woo master: “Where do you see anyone proposing a harassment policy that forbids consensual activities?”
L-And…
Brownian “Give an example of such a policy that people are supporting, please.”
L-There a few examples that people have suggested that forbid consensual activities. Here is one by Jen McCreight-
“And I say this as a sex positive person. There’s a time and a place for flirtation and mating rituals, and when you’re a speaker, a con is neither the time nor place. I understand if attendees want to flirt and hook up with each other, since the event is not necessarily a professional setting for them (but please do your flirting during at the pub and not in the middle of a lecture, and please take no for an answer). But in my opinion, this just shouldn’t acceptable for speakers.”
https://proxy.freethought.online/blaghag/2012/05/dealing-with-badly-behaving-speakers/
L-She suggests that consensual flirting between speakers and convention attendees be considered unacceptable. My original statements stand…
“I support a reasonable anti-harassment policy that is about UNWANTED sexual attention.
I do not support a policy that prohibits behavior that is consensual, but offends the subjective sensibilities of a few people. ex. consensual leg chewing and other activities that don’t involve public nudity. Another example dictating what people wear at booths again with the caveat of public nudity which is already against the law.”
L-However due to the signal to noise ratio in the comments section my original statement became distorted to …
Deen: “@lilandra in #190: who exactly do you think is trying to outlaw consentual behavior?”
Matt Penfold: Where do you see anyone proposing a harassment policy that forbids consensual activities?
“It’s posted on the wall of their straw house. I believe they got three pigs into build it.”
Rowanvt “@190- None of the policies prohibit consensual behaviour. No one is suggesting that at all.”
L-There clearly are people suggesting that some forms of consensual behavior be unacceptable. Further evidence of this can be found in The Geek Girl Feminist Wiki policy which was suggested by some to be used at freethinking conferences…
I quote:
[Exhibitors in the expo hall, sponsor or vendor booths, or similar activities are also subject to the anti-harassment policy. In particular, exhibitors should not use sexualized images, activities, or other material. Booth staff (including volunteers) should not use sexualized clothing/uniforms/costumes, or otherwise create a sexualized environment.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy
L-Here people cannot where the clothes they have chosen for themselves as adult.
Pteryxx:
Uh, no. Mrs. Patrick Campbell uttered her now famous quote upon hearing about an indiscreet affair.
@ 279/287 Brownian
I understand how sexist Western society is, and how that influences the psychology of women, but I find your argument rather ridiculous.
I make a complement about her dress, or shirt, or purse, or whatever. I give a friendly smile. That’s it, unless she turns it into a conversation.
I’m sorry if this makes me sexist, if she reads into such basic friendly gestures to the point that she actually feels threatened by me, I don’t particularly feel responsible.
I grew up in a small town, so maybe I’m just used to people being friendly & polite. I’ve also never seen a non-positive reaction (although it’s possible they were faking it) in the many times I’ve given random compliments.
And as for your comments in 287, go f*ck yourself for presuming to know my intent. I’m not a f*cking bodyguard for the women in my life, just like I’m not a bodyguard for any guy I know. But in either case, if you f*ck with innocent people, I’ll have a problem with it. Its not about sexism or macho bullshit, its about wanting to protect people from stupid bullcrap.
If I see something bad happening, I’ll do what I can to stop it. I’ll use violence if I feel the need.
That goes to you too Daz. I don’t know what sort of lives you people lead, but if you don’t know what it means to want to protect people from stupid bullshit, then I pity you.
@ 325 Quodlibet
See the first part of my response to Brownian.
@ 327 Ms. Daisy
“Outside of racist contexts — which should provide you with a clue, though I doubt it will — how often do you see grown-ass men referred to as “boys,” versus how often you see grown-ass women referred to as “girls”?:
Quite a bit, actually, consider the age group of the people I spend time with. Late teens/early-mid 20’s? Maybe it’s a townie thing…
And as for the “your property” line, have a hearty “f*ck you.”
Honestly, its incredible how much some of the people interpret what I’ve said in order to portray me as some sort of macho, sexist, MRA cheering pig. Considering this is Scienceblogs, I’m frankly disappointed by the level of presumption.
What Caine said. The dog-whistle is when these horses are presumed to be less skittish around a conventionally attractive gender-normative man with a conventionally attractive gender-normative woman than around other pairs/groups.
News flash for Philip:
Beating up egregiously sexist dudes does not actually lessen the influence of systemic sexism in society. It just makes you feel better about yourself.
That’s selfish.
Caine and Hershele: oooh, okay, thanks.
I canz bork blockquotes! Yay!
The bits where I call the arsehole arsehole (and the second bit) are of course mine.
lilandra
<blockquote>paste quote here</blockquote>
=
Very simple. A child could manage it.
—–
How will you know it’s UNWANTED until AFTER it has occured?
I see you have never had corporate training in what is and isn’t sexual harassment. Making a complement about how a woman is dressed is one of the non-nos. You should avoid it with women you don’t know.
@The very model of a modern armchair general
Unfortunately, all informal ways of referring to women have ended up being disrespectful. Funny how that works; it’s almost as if it says something about our society, isn’t it?
@philipranger
What the fuck makes you think some random woman wants your opinion on her clothes? I guarantee nothing terrible will happen if you just keep your views to yourself.
And I’d be willing to bet that you don’t feel the urge to compliment random male strangers – maybe you should have a think about what the difference is.
(meta) …why would horses know or care what gender identity some human or other has? *headscratch*
philipranger
fuck
fucking
Replacing the u with a * is stupid, you’re still using a naughty word.
PZ Myers”That’s the point. No one is trying to tell mutually consenting adults what to do or not do.”
But PZ in post#9 of this thread Daisy Cutter said…
“But, PZ, you’re a man, i.e. a real person, so your safety and your right to not be harassed is sacrosanct. Chicks? Not so much. Because…
If I want to chew on some womans leg in a bar, I don’t want to have to consult the conference handbook to see if this classes as acceptable behavior!
The libertarian response, folks. WHATEVAAAH, I DO WHAT I WAAAAANT!!!”
Laura’s picture got spun into Thunder supposedly defending his right to harass women in the manner depicted in the picture. At least by Daisy Cutter and another poster said they would slap him. So you can’t really say “no one”.
Don’t get me wrong PZ I don’t disagree with everything you say or agree with everything Thunder says or does. If I don’t like a video of his I don’t watch it. The ones I have watched taught me something. He is a human being he makes mistakes sometimes abominable errors in judgment. Does that mean he shouldn’t be on FTB like others are suggesting? I’m gonna say no for the simple reason that people will be sure to jump his crap whenever he strays.
And you are wrong.
Jesus fucking Christ, but you like to goalpost shift, don’t you?
If you don’t want to hear some fucking answers, fucker, then don’t fucking ask questions.
Hey, you fucking stupid fuck, get this through your fucking head: IT’S NOT FUCKING ABOUT YOU! alright. There is a larger context out there, and if you don’t want to recognise it, then you’re part of the problem.
I fucking hate rural assholes like this. Go back to the fucking sticks if you find it impossible to understand the realities that urbanites live with.
Again, you don’t get it. There is a cost to ‘no’. If someone is already threatened by you, do you think they’re going to say something, or do you think they’re going to say “thanks” and hope you leave fucking well enough alone.
I’m reading what you’re giving me, asshole. If that’s too fucking much for your little insect’s brain to comprehend, then have your parents and any teachers send me a complete fucking psych profile so I don’t make the mistake of thinking you act like you say you do.
Hey, you fucking shitbag, you fucking trolled until you mentioned that you stood up when the guy lied to you and brought up your fucking mother and sister.
And what the fuck do you think I’m doing here, you dumb shit? In order to protect people from your asshole trolling, I’m sticking my foot in your metaphorical ass.
Do you see that we fucking understand each other perfectly well, dipshit?
I’m going to use the same fucking bullshit you little wankstains love to use.
You don’t know us. You’re wrong. You’re just going by what we’ve written. How dare you presume?
chigau (違う)
25 June 2012 at 3:06 pm
lilandra
=
paste quote here
Very simple. A child could manage it.
—–
“How will you know it’s UNWANTED until AFTER it has occurred?”
I don’t know if you got my post that I got inundated with replies and I will address each one or if you think reposting this with an insult to my intelligence is somehow what you think is a method of communicating your ideas.
I do have something with a deadline to finish however I will take a minute to reply again.
1. In this case Thunder knew it was wanted because he knew the person. That is one way to know for certain that the behavior was not unwanted.
2. People commit social faux pas and when they do, they are often made aware of them.
3. Some behaviors are risky if you barely know the person, most people will not attempt them without a positive signal that it is wanted.
@liandra:
What you fail to do, in addition to write clearly, is to read for comprehension.
Not a single person here has any issue with the photograph. Or leg-biting. I’m sure we’ve all done a bit of consensual (or at least reciprocal) leg-biting and it’s all good fun (until that guy with rabies shows up).
The issue is Thunderfoots text, and the lack of any proper motive for bringing consentual leg-biting into the discussion. The text should have been a little dried abortion on his draftroom floor. This of course leads to satire and sarcasm on a grand scale.
Same here, and it sucks that I’m not surprised. Sad and angry(over sensitive!!1), yes, but not surprised. I think a lot of us are used to clueless assholes minimising the issue by now. It’s always so goddamn obvious when they haven’t bothered/cared enough to properly follow or consider the issue(or their own privilege), isn’t it? Many thanks to all you awesome people who have the badassery and patience to take on the idiocy.
Thunderf00t, dig UP, stupid!
@ 400 Brownian
Aww. Someone’s mad.
Oh well.
You people can enjoy your circle jerk, I’ll just continue giving people complements, rather than flinging insults at people on the internet.
Seriously though: insect brain? Really? Its almost cute.
BINGO!
lilandra
Describe this policy. or give an example.
and learn to blockquote
@liandra
This [Exhibitors in the expo hall, sponsor or vendor booths, or similar activities are also subject to the anti-harassment policy. In particular, exhibitors should not use sexualized images, activities, or other material. Booth staff (including volunteers) should not use sexualized clothing/uniforms/costumes, or otherwise create a sexualized environment.
Is in the geekfeminist polciy because of the prevalence of promotional models aka booth babes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotional_model
Its not about telling adults what they can or can’t wear. Its about saying that they don’t want staff overly sexualising a convention that wasn’t meant to be in the first place. It may not be a problem for our conventions but it can be a huge problem to gaming and geek conventions.
Yet you tell us to enjoy our circlejerk? That’s a rather offhand compliment.
I didn’t realise the Ghey-sex-with-Brownian line™ had folded back on itself like that, by the way.
Nerd:
Bingo.
I really want everyone who thinks we’re all a bunch of prudes to look up some standard corporate anti-harassment policies and tell me why they shouldn’t be applied to TAM (or any other conference).
Also, once more, do you douches complain to your company’s HR department about how the sexual harassment policy is throwing your swerve off? If not, why?
Go fuck yourself for presuming to know my emotions.
“My current trolling spree aside”
The word is ‘compliment’, you dumb fucking yokel.
Sili:
It’s like an ouroboros of Ghey Secks!
Gnumann, Tyhpos is my motor
25 June 2012 at 3:25 pm
@liandra:
“What you fail to do, in addition to write clearly, is to read for comprehension.
Not a single person here has any issue with the photograph. Or leg-biting. I’m sure we’ve all done a bit of consensual (or at least reciprocal) leg-biting and it’s all good fun (until that guy with rabies shows up).
The issue is Thunderfoots text, and the lack of any proper motive for bringing consentual leg-biting into the discussion. The text should have been a little dried abortion on his draftroom floor. This of course leads to satire and sarcasm on a grand scale.”
Again perhaps you missed this post a few before yours…
lilandra
25 June 2012 at 3:12 pm
PZ Myers”That’s the point. No one is trying to tell mutually consenting adults what to do or not do.”
But PZ in post#9 of this thread Daisy Cutter said…
“But, PZ, you’re a man, i.e. a real person, so your safety and your right to not be harassed is sacrosanct. Chicks? Not so much. Because…
If I want to chew on some womans leg in a bar, I don’t want to have to consult the conference handbook to see if this classes as acceptable behavior!
The libertarian response, folks. WHATEVAAAH, I DO WHAT I WAAAAANT!!!”
Laura’s picture got spun into Thunder supposedly defending his right to harass women in the manner depicted in the picture. At least by Daisy Cutter and another poster said they would slap him. So you can’t really say “no one”.
AND in response to this part in particular…
gnumann “Not a single person here has any issue with the photograph.”
That is clearly not the case, since I’ve pointed out early on a single person who did take issue with the photo. So the failure is not mine to read from comprehension as you condescendingly pointed out.
Considering that this isn’t Scienceblogs, I’m frankly unsurprised by the fact that you are a broken crayon as well as a dull one.
New resource from Stephanie:
https://proxy.freethought.online/almostdiamonds/2012/06/24/sexual-harassment-definitions-and-legalities
The whole thing’s essential reading, really.
PZ said: “You have to fucking consult the woman. That’s the message.”
Actually, that might be what you want to say, but it’s not what you’re saying, and it’s very far away indeed from what others on your side of this issue are saying.
Ok, I tried patient explanation (within the limited scope of my ability). What’s next? Porcupine? Sledgehammer? Well-applied disgust? Does any of the horde have any advice for the semi-newbie?
(Note lilandra: This is not a message for you. Do not reply. And most importantly: Don’t quote me in your seriously fucked-up manner).
Laura and Friend –
I’m glad you had fun. Fun is good. But we’re not talking your particular experience here. We’re talking about what he said about women in general. And how women are treated in general.
Since I am a woman, he was talking about me and how I can expect to be treated.
Just because it makes you feel good, feel all tingly inside, to have an arrogant and blustery man who gets a measure of accolades, and therefore seems very important to your youthful eyes, doesn’t mean the rest of us.
Wait a few years, experience a few more things, hit your head against the wall a few more times when you suddenly realize that you’re smarter/more informed/monogamous than dudes like him and yet you can’t get treated like an intellectual equal… well, let’s just say, you’re perspective will change.
Been there.
rg57
Can you be more specific?
and use blockquotes?
And you can enjoy your circle, jerk.
It’s starting to resemble a Calabi-Yau shape. I expect the flop transitions to begin soon.
Chigau-“Describe this policy. or give an example.
and learn to blockquote”
You win chigau. You can blockquote, so the substance of what I said is refuted. I’m devastated.
LOL Lilandra, you are a total coward. Answer chigau’s point, or get “chickenshit” permanently tattooed to your forhead.
That’s it. Nap time for you.
Thanks for that. You have made it very clear that you are not the slightest bit interested in making conferences more inviting for women.
Why not just admit as much to start with ? Why all the fucking pretence and dishonesty ?
lilandra can you describe a “reasonable anti-harassment policy that is about UNWANTED sexual attention”?
So you don’t give a shit if you make someone feel threatened, despite the fact that you are apparently trying to be friendly? What is it you hope to acheive with these compliments? Normally, a compliment would be about making the person you’re complimenting feel better. If you are informed that there is a significant chance that it is instead going to make them feel worse, surely the decent, logical thing to do would be to stop doing it?
Unless of course you’re actually doing it because your manly opinions are the most important thing in the world, and us fluffy-brained women can’t possibly do without them.
If your behaviour is honestly about being friendly and pleasant and making people happier, then you will change it if informed that that is not the effect it is happening. Making a huge fuss about changing suggests that it is actually all about you.
I’m just going to retract this infantilising retort proactively, and apologise to lilandra ahead of time.
For Chigau and the endearing Gnumann…
rg57
Go google “shut up and listen to the women” and weep
lil’
Well, not being able to quote after someone has given you instructions does make you look like an incomprehensible dumbass.
I used to not use block quote, or edit for grammar/spelling. Then I realized I was crapping all over the people who were reading my words, and making it more difficult for them to understand me. It is a habit that eases communication.
Thank you.
Groan!
You win, I cannot possibly hope to get through this level of dense with my meagre communication skills.
Accepted. Brownian
lilandra can you describe a “reasonable anti-harassment policy that is about UNWANTED sexual attention”?
Liliandra,
Do you really want to defend the right of a company to use scantily clad women to sell their product ? If not, why are you doing so ?
Oh, and tell your friend who was having her leg chewed to learn how to write. Her post is such a mess it is unintelligible. Mind you, yours are not much better.
A Phillip:
No, you don’t. That is very, very clear in your posts. You assume that you know by dint of….?, whereas the actual women in the conversation don’t know their own psychology or pressures because….?
Because you’re special? You were just born knowing that which you have not experienced? Whereas women are not able to understand what they experience? WTF?
“I’m just a caveman. I do not know of your world.”
This exactly demonstrates how much you DON’T understand about the psychology of being female in this world. If you approach a woman, chances are she won’t like it. Sometimes she will, but usually she won’t.
Okay, so you’ve approached her, you’ve complimented her. Women will almost always smile in response and hope that the person goes away. No matter how much she hates it. Why? Because she doesn’t want to escalate.
The social rule is to not enrage a man, to be pleasant. Otherwise all hell could break loose. So, if you want the interaction to end, you smile and say, “thanks.”
It’ll certainly make your comments within the context of a nearly five-hundred comment-long thread that much more readable, so thank you for adopting standards that don’t put all the onus on your readers, thank you.
I had much the same reaction as you when teachers insisted I use standard writing conventions such as English spelling and punctuation rather than simply pissing on the paper and handing it in, but let’s just say I’m a better person for the lesson.
…Brownian, I gotta say I’m impressed. That’s an order of magnitude more skilled than writing in the snow with it.
Audley I wasn’t instructed on how to blockquote in this forum by anyone. Today is the 1st time I needed it in this forum. Took me a minute once people starting patronizing me about it, because I haven’t had to use HTML in a while on forums.
Illuminati-I did answer him twice. He quibbled with the format of the answer.
I think the only time I would consider say something about what she was wearing to a women I didn’t know was if I saw she had on a Pharyngula. I might then, if the opportunity arose to speak to her, mention I read Pharyngula as well and see where it goes from there.
philipranger:
The fact that you can say this
after so many people have expressed why this is unwelcome demonstrates the extent of your self-centered, self-gratifying approach to this whole issue. You’re going to keep on doing what feels good to you regardless of the abundant information that it is not welcome. I’m not trying to insult you, only to reflect back to you how you come across. I avoid men like you. Men like you come across not as pleasant, but as creepy. Comments such as the ones you describe are the sort that end up as complaints to HR departments. I’m in my mid-fifties, and in my countless conversations with many, many women of diverse ages and backgrounds over the years, I can’t recall any who said that they welcome the sort of “complement” [sic!!!] that you like to give. As someone said a few posts earlier: If women aren’t rebuffing you strongly the first time you do this, it is probably partly the desire not to be rude (even in the face of rudeness); partly our social conditioning, and partly due to fear. Too many women know that rebuffed creeps can get creepier and nastier. We tend to keep our distance from men who come on like you do.
My father-in-law is like you. He is convinced that women and girls like to be told that they have “good bodies” or that they want to hear his opinion about how this or that garment fits. He has made family visits a hell for me and for other women in the family, including my daughter. We no longer visit the family because of his arrogant [I’m a man, I know best!], self-centered [I don’t care if they don’t like it], self-gratifying [it makes ME feel good!] verbal groping.
And please don’t claim that “giving…complements” [sic!!] is a “friendly” corollary of rural living. The worst sexual harassment I received in my life happened during the four years I lived in a town of about 2500.
Your obtuseness is incredible. Just stop and think about others’ feelings instead of your own.
I’m reminded of the time the tweaker accosted me for a cigarette at the busstop. I’m pretty generous with smokes to people I think are of legal age, including panhandlers, but this guy was…off. He came up to me while I was wearing headphones, and then screamed how much he hated them when I took them off and said, I’m sorry, I didn’t hear you.
I handed him a smoke the same way I hand everyone a smoke: a friendly smile and a “No problem! Have a good day.”
That doesn’t mean I wasn’t bothered by his approach, and I kept an eye on him until I got on the bus.
Escalating a confrontation with a potentially violent stranger is rarely in one’s best interest.
*BARF*
@Brownian No. It is the equivalent of your instructor and the class pissing on you until you learn to write on your own. You guys are a sensitive bunch.
Fuck you, you petrified lump of diseased camel-jism.
I have done what you pretend to have done. I have stepped in and gotten myself beaten the holy shit out of, helping someone who was actually being attacked. I don’t say this to make myself look big. I say this to draw your attention to the fact that that is not what you did.
You had time for a complaint to be made legally, through the proper channel. There was no immediate danger, but you took it upon yourself to attack someone anyway, because, hey, that’s the masculine thing to do. What you did was assault someone.
Fuck you.
comment #394
lilandra –
You may have written a post of great content. I don’t know because I couldn’t parse it. I literally couldn’t figure out what you were saying, who was supposed to have said what, it was visually confusing, so your words did not convey the meaning you intended.
Okay, so now you know how to blockquote. Try again and people will respond to the content.
lilandra @ 444
No it isn’t. The way you formatted your “quotes” made it difficult to discern what was quoted and what was your own. This actively hinders understanding. And I am assuming you’re posting here to make a point. This requires that you make an effort to ensure that your text is easy to follow.
Your reaction to being asked to use blockquotes makes it seem as if you’re more interested in having your thoughts posted than in communicating effectively.
You do go on a bit about being asked to observe simple etiquette.
I note though that your concept of manners only goes one way. You are chastising Brownian for they way he spoke to you, but it does not seem to have occurred to you to look at how you have been speaking to us. Had you bothered you might realise quite how rude and arrogant you are being. Or is rude and arrogant how you want to appear. You did say you a friend of Thunderfoot I believe, so maybe rude and arrogant is what you do, seeing as how you are devoid of substance.
lil’
Sure, if you ignored chigau.
Plus, you know, HTML isn’t really all that tough to look up, especially when the instructions above the comment box (under Allowed Tags for the hard of thinking) clearly demonstrate that this blog uses HTML formatting. Herp a derp!
My point is, don’t make yourself look like a dumbass because you’re too fucking lazy to figure out the etiquette of the blog you’re posting on.
Let me chime in with the blockquotes are super crowd. It actively wastes brain power and time of those reading you that could otherwise be used for a more or less reasoned response, or making coffee, if you don’t. In some cases, it’s virtually impossible to reconstruct what is being said. Also, its pwetty.
@Brownian,
Over on another site, there is an ongoing conversation about men who say to (young) girls and women passing them on the street, “Smile honey” or “You’d be so pretty if you smiled” or “Don’t look so sad/mad”, etc., etc., etc., etc. Women HATE it. Universally.
That started happening to me when I was about twelve. It happened to me last week (for the first time in a long time). 25 mother fucking years of walking down the street and being told that I should smile or look happy or whatever to please someone else. And you know what I did when the guy said to me last week? Me, a 37 year old white woman in office clothes with a higher social status than the guy leaning on a mailbox smoking a cigarette? Without even thinking, I smiled. And he said, “That’s better.”
For 25 years I have hated this shit, and someone like that guy and phillip are going to see that as a positive response.
I think your analogy about the “off” guy asking for a smoke is a good one. We’ve all been approached by impaired people who want something from us. The common social contract of, “Don’t talk to me when I’m on my way to train” is broken. Someone directly approached us and demanded our attention.
I assume that most guys have experienced that and know how to handle it well. But somehow, a lot of them don’t recognize that it’s a fairly similar experience to be approached in a public place with a “compliment.” The approacher has become someone who has to be managed, has become a situation.
In Germany.
That’s…extra fail.
Nor it seems has anyone ever instructed you on using quote marks, which is the standard fallback when you do not know the format for quoting used on a forum.
I suppose we are to blame for your lack of ignorance in that regard as well.
But…but, you would be so much prettier if you smiled, and that makes me sad. And you don’t want me to be sad, do you?
ugh.
Audley: “hard of thinking”
:-D
Lack of ignorance ? Anything but. How did I miss realising I made that mistake.
I mean of course “your ignorance in that regard as well.”
Chigau-I misunderstood that post. It had block quote in place of my words and you said so simple I child could do it. I thought you were highlighting my inability to block quote. If you had told me this is how you use block quotes it would have been a nice courtesy. I still might not have understood what you meant immediately as I haven’t used HTML in a forum in a while.
I am frankly amazed at how insulting people are here with people who do not agree with them. Most of the people responded right out of the gates with dismissive ad hominems. Frankly that is why the issue is not being effectively resolved. The flaming disrupts civil discourse.
So I was at this convention, and a guy got kneed in the groin by this woman. Turns out that at another convention, something similar happened. And now all these boys are acting all butt hurt, like it was done to them personally or someone was actually castrated or something. I don’t get it. I mean, first of all, you have to expect these sort of things to happen at conventions. Plus, at least one incident wasn’t even at the convention, but before things had even started for the day, so saying it had anything to do with the convention is unfair. Anyway, it was only a couple isolated incidents. The vast majority of the guys who attended never got kneed in the groin. The thing I don’t get is how are we supposed to know ahead of time if boys don’t want us to knee them in the groin? It’s not fair to punish people for things they can’t predict, and it’s really not fair to ask convention organizers to be responsible for the behavior of others, so it’s just not fair to have a policy about kneeing men in the groin. Isn’t limiting the issue to males unfair? If women get kneed in the groin, it still hurts. Besides, if they were serious about preventing groin kneeing, guys would take responsibility for themselves and wear athletic cups when they went out.
Matt:
To think, I learned about the proper use of quotation marks when I was in elementary school! In an American public school, even!
Look, I don’t care if someone chooses to blockquote or to italicize or to use goddamn quotation marks as long as they are being clear. For the most part, I’ve skipped lil’s posts, ‘cos who the hell knows what the fucking point was?
<trivial blathering>
Odd how we edit due to context as we read, ain’t it? I actually read your first attempt without noticing the word ‘lack’.
</trivial blathering>
Quodlibet:
I’m pretty sure I stole that one from Caine. :D
I’ve read and I still have no idea what she was on about. Other than a quote I recognised because I wrote it, I found it impossible to tell if she was quoting other, or expressing her own views. Since I am not the only person to have this problem, it would seem like an epic communication failure on her part. She would seem to run with a crowd that goes in for that.
Kalliope:
Yes, they do. I loathe that shit. I smile when I have reason to, I smile when I feel like it.
The arrogant douchecakes who go around instructing women to smile! all have the same message: you aren’t friendly/approachable enough, you aren’t decorative enough and you aren’t submissive enough.
Fuck that noise.
terrie:
Did you have some sort of point in that mess, Cupcake? If you did, I suggest you dig it up, dust it off and present it. With brevity and clarity.
See, when men like TF tell me that I don’t really matter, that my problems are “non-issues”, but he doesn’t curse its considered “civil discourse” by people like you. I am supposed to be some zen master who can put up with endless insults as long as the insulter uses nice words to deny my humanity. I would much rather have someone say what they actually mean.
How correct TF (or anyone else) is does not rest on how many cuss words or insults they use, it rests on what their point actually is. I haven’t ever equated using nice words with actually being nice- politicians would be the nicest people on earth by that measure.
As far as I can tell, she was harping on about how everybody should not take any issue to the picture of TF gnawing on a leg.
My reading comprehension skills might be on a holiday, but I don’t quite see anybody who got any issue with the picture as it is. So it’s all very weird.
I lost that ability from working in the clinical laboratory. Working with samples from studies makes you freakishly detail oriented (SAMPLE ZXII2344 vs SAMPLE ZXII2343 in really tiny type, etc).
Matt:
Idea! Let’s all start writing in stream of consciousness style– no quotes, caps, punctuation, sentence structure, paragraph breaks, etc etc etc. It could be EPIC!
… No? You don’t agree? Why ever not?
@Gnumann,
Odds are that lilandra and Laura are out here defending TF for his approval. Because his attention makes them feel special.
Meanwhile, TF probably posted the photo so that the whole world will know that he can make physical contact with a pretty 19 year old.
lilandra,
Once the inital shock wears off, you might actually find that it is very useful to have an environment where certain dishonest or passive-aggressive behaviors as well as willful ignorance are simply not tolerated in a discussion, and that is therefore immune to many destructive and dishonest debate and comment tactics that are commonplace in other forums that have a more tender, “civility centered” policy. Many cheap tactics that are used regularly as a device to dominate or derail the conversation, lie and put up smokescreens to hinder skepticism, precisely exploit superficial standards of civility for their ends, and it is those that are neutralized here. That comes at the price of rough language or even personal insults, but that’s a price many are willing to pay.
So, you might find that very often in other forums, the tone of what is being said is policed more strictly than the contents. The reverse is true here, with the consequence that there are rather strict standards on racist, misogynist, etc statements independently of the tone in which they are brought forth. That’s a good thing.
My point is, it is a comment culture that you yourself can actually profit from – if you are arguing in good faith.
@lilandra
The “Allowed Tags” are just above when you comment. There is a preview button. It took me 3 tries, 2mn tops, to find how everyone else was doing it. Since you seemed to have ignored the first(s) requests altogether, it looks like you could not be bothered. You can hardly blame people to be annoyed at you afterward.
As for the issue of flaming, sorry to take my own case as an example again, but I was fairly ignorant before I discover the Atheist community online and Pharyngula, and while the tone sometimes shocked me, I did not think it hindered the quality of the content and I learned a lot by thinking about what was actually written.
On the other, it is quite an handy excuse to dismiss the substance by acting prissy about the form…
Audley if your point is to continue to find reasons to point out I am a dumbass. Especially after figuring it out how to blockquote on my own after 5 minutes of being patronized about it. You would of done it sooner I’m sure. You win.
I’m not responding to it anymore. That is one of the ways you handle a bully.
It is not possible do any good for the issue of the women who have been harrased within a forum that allows the discussion to degrade into bullying and name calling.
I will post the original answer with blockquotes to the numerous questions people overwhelmed me with, and discuss it with whoever wants to discuss it civilly, or not.
And exactly what Tyrant just said :)
Tell me, did you miss logical fallacies as well as how to use quotation marks ?
An ad hominem is not, as you think it is, calling some names. It is dismissing what someone says by calling them an idiot: “There is no need to pay attention to Lilandra as she is clearly an idiot” would be an ad hominem.
That is not what has happen to you. It is true you have been called things such as idiot, but along these lines “Liliana is wrong for these reasons, and thus she is an idiot.”
Do you see the difference ? Can you explain to us why you failed to do so earlier and made the dishonest assertion that you were subject to ad hominems ?
You seem very keen on calling for civil discourse, but you do not seem very keen on being civil yourself. Being dishonest is not civil, and you have been dishonest. Can you explain your hypocrisy ?
The realities of this is starting to sink in I think.
Does this mean that lilandra and/or Laura are his sources of the “one women didn’t feel harassed, so women don’t get harrassed”-anecdote?
I’m…bothered by this imputation to motive. That may well be the case or not, but this strikes me as a variant on the ‘hive mind’ comment.
Make sure you correct those bits in which you were wilfully ignorant first though.
Kalliope-
Deep Rifts!!!
Cue the piranhas I did the block quote wrong.
Well she still ain’t got the concept of blockquotes.
Kalliope:
While it’s certainly been difficult to parse Lilandra’s thoughts on matters, I don’t think that makes it okay for you to make pronouncements on their motivations.
I find it rather skeevy that you think it’s perfectly alright for you to do so.
lilandra,
I also agree somewhat, but I can’t resist – that’s not how blockquotes are used :)
If I’m a Piranha I’m one of those.
lil’:
Is that a question?
Assuming that it is, then yes. ‘Cos until you figure out how to write for clarity, there’s no point in engaging you further.
I’ll bake you a cookie.
When you figure out how punctuation works, I’ll make you a pie!
*snortle!*
Listen, there’s a difference between calling someone out because they are totally unintelligible and frustrating to read and harassment.
Now that you know the joys of blockquoting (and if you figure that out so fast, maybe you can get the hang of this pesking punctuation thing!), maybe you could regale us with your ideas for helping women who have been harassed.
You see, being a woman who is frequently harassed (because I am a sales person in a male-dominated field), I think that having a strong, clear anti-harassment policy can do wonders. It lets people know what sort of behaviors are inappropriate, while letting everyone know what steps they can take if they’ve been harassed. It’s not going to solve every problem, but it does set the tone for the function and makes women feel more welcome and comfortable.
(I say this coming from a management background. I’ve had to deal with this shit, both as someone who has been harassed and as the manager who has been the third party dealing with the harasser.)
Awe, the last refuge of those who have nothing substantial to say: tone trolling. Color me unimpressed.
Lilandra,
You’re right. It was inappropriate for me to say that and nothing you said indicated that was the case. All it served to do was distract from the points you’re making with your own words.
And thanks to everyone who called me out I immediately regretted saying it.
Sorry, lilandra.
Deep Rif… say what?
lil’
It’s not about being perfect (for crap’s sake, check my typos out), it’s about clarity.
@453 Kalliope:
Ugh, I hear you. It’s even worse when it’s ingrained in your culture. By “your”, I’m thinking of mine right now. I’m an Asian woman who was completely raised in French.
There’s this notion of “oh, compliments and flirting are so Gallic! So French!”. And in my specific Asian culture, women are expected to smile constantly. We’re groomed from a young age to be pleasant to men.
You know, for a long time, I actually went along with it. The want/need for validation can be distracting sometimes.
You know, I hate this issue. I don’t hate it because it’s a non-issue – it most definitely is an issue and we need to address it. I hate it because it seems to me that any mention of it seems to bring out the worst in our community. On both sides.
Obviously the legitimate misogynists are going to come out. There’s not really much you can do but ostracize them in some fashion because rational discourse just isn’t going to work on most of them. Strangely I don’t mind these ones in the context of my problem with the issue because they really are jerks and deserve to be treated as such.
The real problem I see is that there are some real barriers to rational discourse between those who see the problem as a big problem (who I largely view as being in the right of it) and those who aren’t misogynists but don’t see the problem in the same light. If the latter voices an opinion that doesn’t match up with the former’s it is oft interpreted in the worst possible way and are told that they are acting entitled and are called insensitive jerks and whatnot. This kind of reaction often isn’t deserved, and frankly I think it’s counterproductive as it only puts people on the defensive or makes them not want to talk about the issue at all, closing them off from actually changing their minds. Not everyone is guilty of this behavior, but a noticeable number of people are. I’m reminded somewhat of this clip from South Park:
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155500/stan-gets-it
I think the non-misogynists who aren’t fully on board just don’t get it, and I don’t think most men are going to be able to fully get it either because we just aren’t in the same situation. Hell, during high school I was sexually harassed by another man for years, and as uncomfortable as that was I know that it isn’t the same as what many women go through – after all, it was just one guy harassing me and it was limited to only one area of my life and I knew I wouldn’t have to deal with him anymore once I graduated. While my experiences might give me a better perspective and let me empathize more, it won’t give me the same perspective.
Someone being wrong because they don’t get it isn’t a good reason to be a jerk to them. I don’t think Thunderf00t is someone who views women as not being human and that he’s more on our side than against it, so I don’t think making him out to be the enemy helps anyone. (well, it might help the misogynists) If there’s something him or someone like him doesn’t get, try to help them get it a little better, but do so with polite discussion and not insults.
Of course that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Regarding “men/women”, “boy/girl”…
Are they really opposites, or are they better described as being complementary?
Although, considering the backlash against equality and respect, maybe “complementary” is too much to ask right now.
Basics:
<blockquote>text</blockquote> to quote someone:
Audley:
<i>text</i> to make text italic, ie italics.
<b>text</b> to make text bold, ie bold.
Gee, let’s see: Adult. Child. Gosh, it’s complimentary when someone calls an adult a child, right?
Oh, Philip, don’t you fret. Women never fake it.
Thunderf00t has a brain. He is capable of evaluating the reaction to his post. If there was such a reaction to something I had written, I would start to think critically about what I have said, and maybe engage the critics to find out whether or to which extent I agree.
In the case of TF, it is possible that his ego gets in the way of that. And that is our fault and we have to compensate for that because…
Oh wait, it isn’t at all
OK. Since the demand is greatest to answer this question…
Woo master:
Brownian:
There a few examples that people have suggested that forbid consensual activities. Here is one by Jen McCreight. She suggests that consensual flirting between speakers and convention attendees be considered unacceptable. My original statements stand.-
https://proxy.freethought.online/blaghag/2012/05/dealing-with-badly-behaving-speakers/
You are so welcome to help people to get it with polite discussion and not insults. I’m not kidding; there isn’t a word in English to describe just how welcome you are to do that, that’s how immensely welcome you are.
Let us know when you’ve done the job. After that, we’ve got racism, homophobia, political and economic conservatism, woo, bigfoot believers, anti-vaxxers…
Well, first things first.
sc_:
Okay, you think we should play nice. Fine, whatever. Do you have anything to back this assertion up?
Also, how many lurkers have piped up to tell us that what we’ve said and how we’ve said it has either changed their minds or made them comfortable enough to post here?
(Here’s a hint: it’s been at least dozens since Elevatorgate and that’s only counting the people who have told us.)
Yes it is. Ignorance is no excuse for reinforcing the shitty status quo— especially when you are in a position to educate about yourself about an issue and refuse to do so because wah wah, I want teh secks with strangers or teh menz aren’t as privileged as teh ladeez or whatever the assholery du jour happens to be.
Anger is useful for social change and, quite frankly, telling us not to be angry just shows that despite your claim of having been harassed you still don’t get it.