I didn’t attend the Christian “Undeniable” event that was supposed to happen in Federation Square in Melbourne last night. They were dishonest and boring.
The gang of Christians did show up outside the Melbourne convention center after the Global Atheist Convention, and commenced chanting and howling: they passed a microphone around and bellowed their thanks to Jesus at a loud volume, while their fellows closed their eyes and waved their hands at the skies. They looked awesomely foolish. There was no attempt at conversation; they couldn’t, they just had their scripts to recite. But as has been typical of all the religious demonstrations at the GAC, they just amplify their own voices and ignore everyone else, which kind of defeats the point, I would think.
After their circle jerk was over, one fellow started ordering people to get into small groups and march over to the square. He made the mistake of passing his microphone along, so I managed to ask him some questions.
“Why are you here at the atheist convention, rather than at Federation Square?” He answered that it just happened to be a convenient place to meet. He was a liar. Of course he was at that particular place because he wanted to testify to atheists.
“Who were you people talking to over your microphones?” He said they were just talking to each other. Again, a lie. It’s obvious that they were putting on a public display of piety. When I pointed out that their shrieking was all addressed to their god in the sky, he just shrugged. Someone else corrected me and said their god was everywhere. Which made me wonder why they needed to amplify their voices, and why they were all looking and raising their arms skyward. I guess God is hard of hearing.
“What do you hope to accomplish with this loud howling at your god?” And with that, they all scurried away.
I don’t see how I was supposed to ask them their story when all they were prepared to do is deny their purposes and scream at an invisible god. So I blew them off and didn’t bother to follow them to the square, where they’d just blindly babble anyway.
You tried to REASON with them?
*confused*
PZ
Sounds like you were not very shrill or strident.
BAD atheist!
Think of the loudspeaker as the big sky daddy’s hearing aid.
I’m sure their Invisible Sky Wizard was very impressed.
Saying a whole lot of (reasonably) deniable things doesn’t seem to get the message of an “undeniable God” across very well.
I suspect that it’ll be a pretty good, if not very accurate, story for Sunday School, though.
Glen Davidson
What do they accomplish? Being loud enough to drown out doubt, reinforcing each other’s fragile delusions.
We’re in for a whole lot more howling and chanting as religion slowly withers – at least as it does in our relatively progressive countries.
Elsewhere, we’ll have a few more centuries of noise and annoyance to bear. Atrocities, a genocide or two, and maybe the problem will never go away.
But we can try. We owe it to whoever comes after us.
Undeniably stupid… They know why they were there, we know why they were there – what does it profit them to lie? Or perhaps they were just lost;
“I am like a Pellican in the wilderness…” Psalm 102.6
Did anyone go and check them out at Fed Square? LimaBravo, Phasic and I had to leave for a dinner appointment – but I would have liked to have seen what kind of crowd(?) they drew.
I hope Chris Stedman wasn’t there to hear this strident, militant, in your face question. He might have had an attack of the vapors.
Chatted with Rorshach after he had fronted one of these wingnuts with some bible contradictions, and the wingnut didn’t even know what he was talking about. Took another atheist to pull up chapter and verse on their smartphone to get the wingnut up to speed.
Said Wingnut then launches into stand-up, improv, ‘sophisticated apologetics’.
Poorly prepared and not rehearsed at all. A bit disappointing really – I give them a 3/10.
How dare you, PZ? You were so needlessly cruel, strident, loud and gnu-athiesty at them.
Bad PZ.
To the spanking couch.
Thanks PZ.
For doing that, and for hanging around and talking to people andd having your photo taken late into the evening, even though you must have been knackered.
Why shriek at the Lawd when you can spend time in the company of decent human beings, who’re attempting to make the globe a better place to spend our brief existance on? Beats me.
The contrast between what was going on in that convention centre and the hateful slogans paraded by both the christian and islamic groups could not have been more stark.
I don’t know if the transcript of PZ’s speech is available – I’m just about to get on the ‘plane home and I’ll look later, but the phrase “hunters’ eyes” is going to stick, and the determination certainly has been amped up in our household.
Someday beffore one or the other of us shuffles off, I need to by you a beer PZ. Good work.
I ended up down at Federation Square for the christian event. Their core message appeared to be “God is true because he talks to me”. Their production values were appalling; and their comedian unfunny. The musicians did, however, sound competent.
There were plenty of people milling about wearing white “Ask me my story” t-shirts. Fortunately none of these people asked me to ask them anything. I did, however, end up in a conversation with a lovely christian lady who did not understand atheism and did not understand evolution. The amazing thing was that when she was asking her questions, she actually listened to the answers given by me and another godless heathen. Unfortunately, Richard Dawkins had left by this stage – he would have been so much better at explaining evolution than I was :) Anyway: this lady was reasonable, rational, and seemed like a genuinely nice person with whom was a pleasure to converse. On the other hand, some of the other deluded fucktards present were not a pleasure to be anywhere near…
Also, PZ, your presentation at the convention was fraking awesome!
PZ, you did all a reasonable person could be expected to do. You made an honest effort, you asked the right questions. The fact that your efforts and intent sailed right over their heads serves to show what you and I and lots of others have noted and come to expect. Some people just don’t know how to think.
You said it, kiddo!
I was never that annoying but many of my fellow Christians were. I can tell you pretty much without doubt that their real audience was fellow Christians. They’ll distort what happened and twist any polite conversation with anyone who happened to be around (whether they were at the con or not) into a “planted seed” and a “miracle.” They’ll tell each other that they won every argument that ended with the atheist politely walking away. So long as you only talk to people who agree with you, you can build up quite a body of evidence that you’re actually doing something useful at these things. As said they just don’t register contradictions and theological problems and will never follow them or will just skim the apologetics and declare it convincing.
Sounds like the tale of Elijah and the prophets of Baal: I Kings 18.
And, in the old Bible story,
But that was a different God. Maybe this one will be more responsive. (Sure!)
I thought the bible had some nasty things to say about people who pray in public. I wonder why they never protest about that?
I was there briefly, it was forgettable. Nobody wanted to talk to us. The shirts had something like ‘can you handle the truth’ on the back – we thought that amusing in a protest aimed at atheists. The video ‘intro’ from the organisers (seemingly not there in person) was smug and gave all the credit for this ‘massive’ event to god – ‘no way could we have organised a small concert with three weeks notice without GOD’. So we left when the music (and clapping) started.
It would hold up a mirror to them, Brother Oggie. That they cannot stand for it is too truthful for them..
I just did a search by upload date for “PZ Myers” hoping to find you at the GAC, and from the titles that popped up, it seems you’ve been ruffing some people’s feathers lately. Usually I find science talks. Oh good, the first three I clicked on had their comments open!
On YouTube. oops
As a matter of fact, I used just that means to try to show a true believer what kind of person they actually were. I answered a question aimed at framing my position as undermining the Great Plan by picking up a mirror and holding it in front of my pious questioner.
There was a zooming sound as my point sailed safely past her head.
No one was hurt; one learned a take-away lesson, the other remains unperturbed.
I am the one who registered gain.
Once again.
I guess God is hard of hearing.
You wouldn’t believe it, would you, but the exact same sentiment is conveyed in one of the most famous couplets of the famous iconoclastic medieval Hindi poet Kabir (who, though born a Muslim and a lifelong theist, was against all trappings of any kind of organized religion). Here is rough translation:
This, of course, refers to the tradition of a Muezzin shouting the Azan from the minaret of a mosque before the Namaz prayers.
Oops missed blocquote on first line in my comment. That observation was made by PZ, not me.
The problem compounded by its being inarticulate.
For clarity I should have capitalized “its”, as in:
Just to be clear.
*hee heeeee!*
Crudely Wrott
teehee!!
@Susannah @17:
That may be a mistranslation. Some translators render that section as “Perhaps he is deep in thought, or relieving himself, or traveling”. It may have been more descriptive in the original, but I’m not qualified to assess insults in Classical Hebrew.
People complain that the new atheists aren’t bringing forth constructive discussion, but it’s not like there’s somewhere we can go to have that. When there’s a venue for open and honest conversation, then those complaints about incivility are justified. Just trying to have a voice at all means having to be uncivil, because that’s the only way to speak on the matter.
I thought asking plain, unapologetic questions about theists’ actions and motivations is what made an atheist shrill and strident.
@ chigau (違う),
winks, nods, etc.
=)
Correct, NB with a W. For the theist asking for evidence is indistinguishable from simple assault. The very act of asking is interpreted as an evil act. It is as if pointing to a fact is a frontal assault.
And this from those who claim to be tight with the Creator, an omniscient, omnipresent, omniloving and perfect being.
*snicker*
@24 circe
“… Muezzin shouting the Azan from the minaret of a mosque before the Namaz prayers.”
The sunrise call to prayer can be as hauntingly beautiful as the cry of a loon in the alaska wilderness.
as long as one doesn’t think about the religion aspect.
@24 circe
“… Muezzin shouting the Azan from the minaret of a mosque before the Namaz prayers.”
Sorry, i hear the muezzin singing rather than shouting.
Susannah (#17): I did a copy-and paste into Google to read that verse by mistake but must have screwed something up because I hit 2 Kings 18:27 instead. Wow. My new favorite old-testament verse.
In honour of the GA Convention, Scott Stephens, the Religion and Ethics editor at the ABC (the Australian national broadcasting network), has flooded the ABC webpage with articles from prominent theologists from the US and the UK. About a dozen rants spewing hate at atheists have been posted over the last few days. Coincidentally, nothing much has been posted about Ethics on the site.
Dawkins comes in for a lot of sneering and smears from these hyper-educated dunces.
Stephens, who has a long track record as an angry little theist, chooses whether answering comments get published. You may be unsurprised to know that he is VERY selective about which comments critical of theologians appear on the webpage.
Australian taxpayers foot the bill for this exercise in blatant atheist bashing.
Don’t be shy about expressing your views – at http://www.abc.net.au/religion/ – about whether it is appropriate for an independent National broadcaster to mount anti-atheist campaigns to counter events such as the GA Convention.
The sunrise call to prayer can be as hauntingly beautiful as the cry of a loon……….
@34 Joed,
Thank you for that image. The cry of a loon. Bout sums it up.
@michaelbush #29,
I remembered that, but not where I’d heard it. “He’s on the pot; pray louder!”
:)
If you dare challenge them to provide evidence it is seen as not having faith, yet they claim to have evidence that Darwin was wrong on evolution. The mental gymnastics required to do both at once must be impressive indeed. I sometimes wonder if these people suffer from some kind of brain disorder wherein the two hemispheres are separated and unable to communicate.
As a theist, I was sort of hoping that PZ wouldn’t be able to defend that statement.
It can’t be stressed enough how vulnerable and endangered one is when his rival understands him better than he knows his own self.
@ michaelbusch (re: Susannah)
This was actually quite a big problem for the goddists of old. What do you do when your gods go off to Ethiopia on a working vacation? (Homer relates that the gods would take trips there because the burnt offerings were better.)
It would seem that jews and xtians got over this problem by inventing a god that could be “eberywhere at once!”. Very clever. That old “my god is bigger than your god” gambit.
Who?
Let us not forget that atheists of the global humanist society repeatedly gatecrash Christian conventions and harass the audience. Fortunately, we “turn the other cheek” (Matthew 5:39) to atheist provocation or else things could turn quite nasty and violent and many people could get hurt.
@ DLC
I hold with just the opposite theory. There is too much inter-hemispheric brain chatter. This causes them to have (very real to them) feelings of being in contact with the divine (their own non-linear mental processes). You can try this at home (though I do not endorse the practice) through switching down the rational processes either by the use of drugs, endless repetition (Hari Krishna. Hari Rama …x 1,000,000) or simply by extensively injuring your left hemisphere with a bat (gotta get this right, don’t get left out by not doing it right!)
Eventually your rational mind will give up in exhaustion and pass the steering wheel to the right side. Bingo! You have now given yourself a religious experience. (So AWESOME ™ , that goddists will justify any behaviour to stay there.)
@ chigau
I hate to break this to you, but their god has a penis. He only looks out for His own (ie: people with
peniipenaipenoi… heck … people who, like Him, also have a penis.)yec123 #44
Now you’re just being silly.
Do you godbots get little gold stars for being banmed?
Must be from the same reality where Star Trek proves the existence of Jesus.
yec123 – are you for real? If so, evidence please.
Also, two words. Westboro Baptist.
@ yec123
Take you and your imaginary sky-god and fuck off.
Alternatively, if you have any evidence for your YHWH, feel free to present it succinctly on TZT. This is a sub-thread dedicated to allowing godbots, menZ and trolls to make their points without the concern of being kicked out or told to fuck off. Link here: TZT
I look forward to hearing from your god (via you) on that thread, but not elsewhere. Now you cannot say that we have not been giving the full opportunity to express your views and a place where they will be read and responded to. Just please don’t stink up the other threads where we are trying to talk to each other. And don’t lie and say that you haven’t been given the opportunity to present your case.
Also: whom?? and whose??
You might note, if you were a decent and intellectually honest individual (spoilers: you aren’t), that PZ’s description is an example of atheists not turning the other cheek, and yet also not allowing things to devolve into violence. I find it amazing that you believe that the only two options are 1. “roll over” or 2. commit acts of violence. And also amazing that you seem to suggest the only reason Christians don’t get violent when faced with opposing ideas or minor annoyances is because the Bible says not to. Are believers really that pathetic? Or is it just you?
We know that there are atheists who want to burn down churches and we know that there are some fundamentalists who want to burn atheists at the stake. The most important thing is that we keep a lid on the extremists on both sides. Yes, the Bible teaches us to “turn the other cheek” but it equally exhorts us to destroy idolators and unbelievers:
It is a moral dilemma for the Christian.
yec123,
“The most important thing is that we keep a lid on the extremists on {\it both} sides”
That is obvious to everyone here. However, if you are trying to imply that there is currently a problem with “violent atheist extremism” in the US, I would sure like to see some evidence. And may I remind you that there is no “atheist ideology” which would be a unified basis for such extremism, so your comparison is, mildly put, problematic.
Yec123,
So it is a moral dilemma for you whether you destroy idolators or not?
Great example of the dangers or religion.
Even I, with my secular morals, know quite easily, that such an action is immoral.
And while I have heard of Christians killing doctors and protesting at funerals I have never heard of atheists burning down churches, would you care to provide some evidence of this?
So if we question your speakers on matters of theology we should expect violence…
Nice.
Look, atheists, there is no point denying that you have a serious problem with violent extremists in your ranks:
Church fires suspect had books on Atheism, Demons
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/faith/2010/02/church_fires_suspect_had_books.html
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/state/headlines/20100224-Atheist-books-guns-found-at-8793.ece
Church-Burning Video Used to Promote Atheist Event at Ft. Bragg
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/fort-bragg-to-host-anti-religion-event.html
Owning a book about atheism does not make one an atheists, particularly when they a accompanied by books on demons. Seriously,mid we don’t believe in god we don’t believe in demons!
As to the music video, I suspect the burning is for shock value and probably has more to do with gaining notoriety rather than making an atheistic statement.
Try again.
joed @34
Well I grew up in a locality surrounded by mosques and temples, and I agree, that the sunset and sunrise calls were rather beautiful to listen to. Especially as there were mosques in every direction, so that the effect of the simultaneous calls was quite nice. We also had “favorites”: some of the Muezzins made an effort at singing it out nicely, and were rather good at it, while others just shouted it out. Also, the mosques were just the right distance away from our house, so that the calls just blended ino some sort of “background music” and were never disturbing.
Also, I think Kabir’s point in that couplet was about the religious aspect of the call, rather than the auditory aspect of it.
Yes there is a point in denying that: it is simply not true. There might be a few deranged people who commit violent acts, and who are also atheists, but it is not a serious problem.
The links you provided demonstrates this pretty well. In the first case the person had a book about atheism, and a book about demon procession. The later is of course not something an atheist would really believe in, since the whole demon concept is generally based upon a dualistic worldview, with heaven and hell.
And music video with the burning church is about intra-faith violence
Psst. Idiot. Look here:
https://proxy.freethought.online/rockbeyondbelief/2012/01/29/foxnews-investigates-the-atheist-festival-gets-it-twisted/
I know many atheists who don’t believe in God, but who do believe in ghosts and demons. There is no atheist creed like in Christianity, or is there?
You “know” many atheists who believe in demons?
You are just making stuff up aren’t you?
So what if you do know atheists who believe in ghosts and daemons ? Since no one claims that not believing in god means you cannot believe in such things your comment is superfluous.
And no, there is no atheist creed. Atheism is just a lack of belief in god. It is not that hard a concept to grasp, so I am unsure why you seem to have such a problem.
Paranoid evidenceless fuckwitted idjit is still paranoid, still evidenceless, and still fuckwitted, and still not funny. Never was. All it is is irrelevant and delusional. Too many ghosts and goblins in its mind to sound sane.
Well, I for one would claim that few atheists would believe in the Christian or Muslim concept of demons, which is usually the one that forms the basis of the concept of demon procession. If they believe in them, they usually also buy the rest of the package.
Of course, it is entirely possible for an atheist to believe in a different concept of demons. I have yet to meet one though, but then, I live in a largely secular country.
yec123,
Heh. tehe. hahahahaha. Do I get to weigh that against all felons who possess a Bible?
Wow your arguments are dumb
I got one of the Undeniable Übermensch to admit there was no good evidence for god and it was all a matter of faith after I pointed out that he was simply repeating stories he had been told.
I asked him to start again and give me his knock-out argument; the kind that would convince a scientist. That’s when he opened the escape hatch marked ‘faith.’
He was clearly sincere and quite polite but nowhere near equipped to be wearing a ‘ask me my story’ t-shirt. I shook his hand and left him looking a little deflated and mildly piqued.
Then we drank beer.
CF @ 8,
There were between 500 and 700 happy-clappy souls all bopping away to middle-of-the-road rock music and being distracted by rambling Christian stories that didn’t go anywhere, like the time they had an onion tied to their belt, which was the style at the time…
At one lull in the proceedings I shouted out, ‘Get to the part where you prove the existence of god!” but they didn’t.
Shorter yec123,
Hmmm…
Owning a book about atheism makes one an atheist? Well, shit… looking at just one of my bookshelves I see:
The God Delusion
God is Not Great
The Blind Watchmaker
Climbing Mt. Improbable
The Spiral Dance
Green Witchcraft
Drawing Down the Moon
Dreaming the Dark
andddd….
The King James Bible (it even has my name embossed in gold letters on the cover!)
I must be one messed-up atheist-Wiccan-Neopagan-Christian.
I own a bible and several books on religion. Would they assume me on that basis to be a Christian, if I were to be suspected of burning down a church?
But then I’m not surprised that that’s your standard of proof, yec123.
@chigau (re: 43: Who?)
The way I read it… I think rapiddominance is talking about themselves.
Shit, I own a few books on serial killers, and several on cosmology.
I must be a serial-killing astrophysicist.
I do burn down churches though.
Haven’t we all myeck waters?
Other than ‘follow the evidence’?
Not that I’m aware.
Have you heard differently? Given the fact that you’ve been talking to literally dozens of atheists for several weeks now, you’re surely familiar with the Dogma All Atheists Must Accept As True by now.
Care to share what you’ve heard, and listen to it being roundly accepted by all here?
Or do you in fact know that’s a straw man and you’re
bearing false witnesslying yet again?It’s just that those church fires are so hard to put out once one gets them going, what with their churchy tendency of floating on water as small rocks and witches do.
That makes no sense. Not because of creed, but because of the very definition of atheism.
If there’s an atheist who believes in demons/Satan, then that means he’s not an atheist.
He’s a so-called Satanist.
You do understand the difference, don’t you ?
And xians (I’d say most of them) do believe in demons, don’t they ? I’m using “believe in” as in, “believe in the existence of”, not “believe” as in “worship”.
Ghosts are another matter. There are atheists who are gullible over subjects other than gods. But you’ll find that most atheists don’t give much credence to this afterlife/soul thing.
It must be really tough when you see a group of Amaleks walking down the street with their oxen. Do you smite them, or turn the other cheek?
And yec, this is what happens when one of your extremists forgets to turn the other cheek.
But it’s ok, I’m sure he thought he was doing god’s work.
Is this a revival of the Church Burnin’ Ebola Boys from AtBC here at Pharyngula?
Louis
yec123
…lol
Also I have a bunch of scifi and fantasy books. I should see if I can summon a dragon or build a ship that travels faster than light.
Wait! …what!…you can go in a church and burn it…I thought that only an ambition in my dreams!
And sky fairy is what?…picking his holy hooter?
He actually allows his house be burnt down…without a whimper?…what a smeagol!
Does he not care about his minions will have no place to kiss holy ass?
And what about lightening strikes?
He can stop them according to thy philosophy horatio…but does sweet FA?…weird!
Wait! …what!…you can go in a church and burn it…I thought that only an ambition in my dreams!
And sky fairy is what?…picking his holy hooter?
He actually allows his house be burnt down…without a whimper?…what a smeagol!
Does he not care about his minions who will have no place to kiss holy ass?
And what about lightening strikes?
He can stop them if bothered according to thy philosophy horatio…but does sweet FA?…weird!
So it turns out your god is the arsonist…wow!…who would have thought?
With a responsibility ethic as sky fairy demonstrates , who needs atheists to hold the match…sky fairy can do it much more divinely!
How do you resolve such a dilemma?
Surely not by secular ethics…
Possibly by circular ethics.
or möbius ethics.
Yec
You already claim that we all want an atheists state and a reign of terror.
Given that, why the fuck do you think your “aren’t you worried about extreamists” shtick would work?
Why would you even think that’s a problem for us? One less church right?
Why do you appeal to secular ethics in order to try to create an emotional argument against the possibility of secular ethics?
I don’t own any books on atheism; I don’t really feel like I need to. I do own a recto-verso English-Hebrew Torah, and two copies of the Qu’ran in translation (the Pickthall, and a copy I call the Heretical Qu’ran, because not only does it have illustrations, but they’re also by a woman). I also have books on history, politics, languages, linguistics, and rhetoric, biography, science, the social sciences, arts and design, non-fiction works on literature, and a whole lot of fiction.
I’m not quite sure what someone would make of me based on my bookshelves alone, other than that I’m a stone bibliophile. Don’t judge a book by its cover, and don’t judge someone by their bookshelves, either.
Er…no..not really. Atheism is a lack of belief in God, and not the denial of Satan’s existence. I suspect most devil-worshipers are in fact atheists.
Wrong. Atheism is a lack of belief in gods, and in the supernatural in general. You may not consider Satan to be a god, but surely you agree that it’s supernatural.
Nope, lack of belief in any gods, not just your Christian “god” that’s three gods or three gods that’s one.
This troll is incredibly squishy.
It appears our paranoid and delusional fuckwit doesn’t realize that humnas have invented over three thousand deities. All imaginary. A partial list. YEC is an atheist of all but one. We just go that final imaginary deity.
Why does he find that concept so scary?
I think this is the dumbest sentence I’ve ever read.
yec123:
Silly yec123, just do what Christians normally do: pick the teaching you like and follow it.
Actually it’s true but not in the way they suspect. Most Satanists do not believe in a diety (including Satan). It’s basically objectivism+Atheism with a trollish PR image. They don’t believe in a Satan and just take the name because of it’s literary allusions.
This would cause a coding syntax error would it not?
1) bible + God provides THE Objective morality
2) Objective Morality has two mutually contradictory and equally ranked commands
3) This means the dilemma has to be resolved either a) by random number generator (coin flip) or b) subjectively
What fucking good is a objective morality that still comes down to subjectivity?
YEC
Hmm. Well, first of all, I don’t think anyone who doesn’t explicitly buy into the idea of your *specific* God would have any reason believe in his supposed adversary. That would be kind of weird wouldn’t it? Maybe a bit like if I accused you of worshiping Loki because you don’t believe in Thor?
To be fair, a number of groups that could be placed under the heading of “satanism” are atheistic. Thelema, the Temple of Set, and the Church of Satan (of Anton LaVey) all have some idea that humans are essentially Gods, and deny the existence of the literal Yahweh. Some of them have vague kabbalistic ideas about what an extant god might or might not be. People who ascribe to those religions generally identify as members of those religions, though, not as “atheists”.
Yeah? Name two.
Satan is definitely a god to “devil worshipers.” You worship A GOD. By definition. Christians vary in their ideas about Satan but generally Satan is an inferior, an underling. And most of the prototypes for Satan like Herne and Pan were unquestionably, unarguably, gods that fell out of favor.
There are atheist Satanists who believe that Satan is just a symbolic focus for their spells and rituals. They do not believe in God or Satan as a personality. If they did, they wouldn’t be atheists, by definition. They are no more likely to be violent than anyone else. As far as an atheist who believes in demons and ghosts it is theoretically possible but then the definition of god quickly gets muddy.
Christians sometimes like to mislabel Hindus and Muslims as “atheists.” Um, no. To a real atheist these are all variations on a theme of theism.
Still haven’t ramped up those thinking processes, huh?
Since you have once tried to prove the existence of god through Star Trek (remember that?), I’ll try with an analogy.
Suppose you are a Klingon, ok ?
Does that mean that you deny the existence of the Federation ?
Or does that just mean that you don’t “believe in” what they do (as in, don’t agree with it) ? As in, they’re your ennemies ?
If you deny the existence of the Federation, why then would you waste time and money patrolling with heavily armed spaceships ?
Coming back to our world, why the hell would I believe in your god’s evil sidekick if I don’t even believe the main character of the idiotic story even exists?
Atheist :: someone who doe not believe in god(s). Supernatural beings. All of them. Your white bearded well-groomed Papa in the sky, Ganesh, Mithra, Belzebub, Odin, Zeus, ect.
And why should “devil worshippers” (if they exist -as something else than wanking immature heavy metal fans- in other places than deluded and fearful xian brains) deny the existence (as in thinking it doesn’t exist) of your god ? Would it not rather be an ennemy for them ? If not, what would they be fighting against ?
I’m trying to imagine being stupid enough that this actually makes sense.
First of all, Satan is part of Christian mythology. There’s no other sources on Satan. Why would anyone who didn’t believe in the rest of the Christian myth just happen to believe the one little part about Satan? Who does yec123 think these “devil-worshipers” believe created Satan if they don’t believe in God in the first place?
Bottom line: if you don’t think there’s any reason to believe in God you’re not going to see any reason to believe in Satan. (Ghosts are a red herring in this case.)
I have never heard of anyone who literally worships the devil. There are satanists who put on a show of worshiping the devil but that’s really just to scare silly rubes like yec123 who don’t know any better. The Church of Satanism is atheist — meaning that Satanists don’t actually believe in Satan.
yec123, “atheism” isn’t like fundamentalist Christianity. It’s not credal. But most people who identify as atheists — and especially those who identify as “new” atheists — come to their atheism through skepticism rather than some juvenile rejection of God. For anyone in this position (like everyone commenting here for example) the notion of believing in Satan without believing in God is possibly even more insane than believing in God in the first place.
our poor “friend” YEC123 is self admittedly ignorant if he is not just personality made up for the purpose of trolling. It is not surprising given the anti-atheist preaching most christians have received.
As a young high school grad and a science enthusiast I remember the first sociology/anthropology class I took in college the professor opened with a statement all gods were created by man and a demonstration of the fact that you can not always believe what you see with a “magic trick”.
Very disturbing ideas but undeniably demonstrated, I mark that class as the real turning point in my life where it became more difficult to hold conflicting ideas the truth of science which was demonstrable and god which was not.
uncle frogy
So just to keep up, yec123 has still not adduced any evidence of atheists disrupting church services or other Christian gatherings (as claimed in his/her first comment), and has failed to adduce any evidence that atheists routinely go around burning churches down (his/her second ridiculous claim).
yec123, please note that one lone nutjob who happens to have a book on atheism does not speak or act on behalf of all atheists any more than Anders Breivik spoke or acted for all Christians. The guilt by association game is boring, unenlightening, and doesn’t actually end up making Christians look very good.
Why don’t we stick to the matter at hand. You said this:
I don’t believe you. Please cite evidence.
yec: I’ll bet you that you’re an atheist to A, Adad, Adapa, Adrammelech, Aeon, Agasaya, Aglibol, Ahriman, Ahura Mazda, Ahurani, Ai-ada, Al-Lat, Aja, Aka, Alalu, Al-Lat, Amm, Al-Uzza (El-‘Ozza or Han-Uzzai), An, Anahita, Anath (Anat), Anatu, Anbay, Anshar, Anu, Anunitu, An-Zu, Apsu, Aqhat, Ararat, Arinna, Asherali, Ashnan, Ashtoreth, Ashur, Astarte, Atar, Athirat, Athtart, Attis, Aya, Baal (Bel), Baalat (Ba’Alat), Baau, Basamum, Beelsamin, Belit-Seri, Beruth, Borak, Broxa, Caelestis, Cassios, Lebanon, Antilebanon, and Brathy, Chaos, Chemosh, Cotys, Cybele, Daena, Daevas, Dagon, Damkina, Dazimus, Derketo, Dhat-Badan, Dilmun, Dumuzi (Du’uzu), Duttur, Ea, El, Endukugga, Enki, Enlil, Ennugi, Eriskegal, Ereshkigal (Allatu), Eshara, Eshmun, Firanak, Fravashi, Gatamdug, Genea, Genos, Gestinanna, Gula, Hadad, Hannahanna, Hatti, Hea, Hiribi, The Houri, Humban, Innana, Ishkur, Ishtar, Ithm, Jamshid or Jamshyd, Jehovah, Jesus, Kabta, Kadi, Kamrusepas, Ki (Kiki), Kingu, Kolpia, Kothar-u-Khasis, Lahar, Marduk, Mari, Meni, Merodach, Misor, Moloch, Mot, Mushdama, Mylitta, Naamah, Nabu (Nebo), Nairyosangha, Nammu, Namtaru, Nanna, Nebo, Nergal, Nidaba, Ninhursag or Nintu, Ninlil, Ninsar, Nintur, Ninurta, Pa, Qadshu, Rapithwin, Resheph (Mikal or Mekal), Rimmon, Sadarnuna, Shahar, Shalim, Shamish, Shapshu, Sheger, Sin, Siris (Sirah), Taautos, Tammuz, Tanit, Taru, Tasimmet, Telipinu, Tiamat, Tishtrya, Tsehub, Utnapishtim, Utu, Wurusemu, Yam, Yarih (Yarikh), Yima, Zaba, Zababa, Zam, Zanahary (Zanaharibe), Zarpandit, Zarathustra, Zatavu, Zazavavindrano, Ziusudra, Zu (Imdugud), and Zurvan. Does this mean that all of the hatred you’ve spewed toward atheists applies to you too?
If someone believes in the devil, they are by definition not an atheist. A belief in the devil is like a belief in god, in a powerful supernatural force that plays a part in this world. An atheist is one who doesn’t believe in any such being, be it benevolent or malevolent…
And another comment page derailed by boring, ignorant, idiotic yec123. Is this entertaining to anyone still?
Richard Dawkins and the leader of the Australian Sex Party show up at a Christian rock concert. Really happened!! Thanks for your call to action PZ. We had a nice little wolf pack surrounding the sheep.
It might be entertaining to yec123. After all, it does give him/her some attention. (I doubt anyone else could find it anything but annoyingly dense.)
louis14
I don’t think yec123 is derailing.
The OP is about irritating theists.
Thanks Speedweasel! 500-700 eh?
I’m glad I didn’t go to that then – it’d be saddening to see so many young (assuming young crowd?) Aussies emulating American evangelicals.
(didn’t see you at the GAC, did you go?)
Oi! I wank. I’m immature. And I’m a metal fan. >:|
;p
Seriously, there’s little to no satanism in metal, in my experience. Maybe a couple of church burnin Black Metal yahoos in the Stygian dark of the Norwegian forest lit by the frostbitten moon of Yopiufoifohjg or something, but IRL it’s just imagery. These bands are Poe or King or Lovecraft. They don’t believe the shit, nor expect anyone else to. It’s just the palette they use. Slayer and Opeth are as much Satanists as Alestorm or Swashbuckle are effin pirates.
And yeah, yec123, it’s just a little ludicrous to accuse atheists of worshiping or deifying something.
In all fairness, if yec ever did manage to prove the existence of an abrahamic god, I would absolutely become a Satanist. Seriously, Satan is clearly the hero of the bibble. He challenges a horrendously powerful tyrant, knowing full well the consequences, because someone has to stand up to god. He elevates humans from blind slavery to knowledge that threatens even god. You can’t help but want to root for the underdog when you read the bobble.
Besides, the babble reads like a biased propaganda piece for god’s side. Clearly Satan has a chance to conquer heaven if his army is big, smart and well-armed enough.
@ragutis#110
I wank, therefore I am.
Or is it I am, therefore I wank?
@ A.R
Good to see you included some of the year-gods in your list. My impression is that jeebus was a better year-god than Attis (though jeebus still falls far short of Tammuz). To this end I am cobbling together a little research into these gods.
One (slightly off topic) factoid that has arisen is that godbotherers really get their underwear in a toggle about calendars. The christians were incredibly crap with keeping time correctly, in large part because they sucked at astronomy. This even while their imaginary deity was rather cross about timekeeping.
Anyhow, that is not what I wanted to share. More interesting is how in awe goddists are with their holey babble.
So I looked it up. The most prolific author in English was Charles Hamilton who wrote about 100 million words. To put this in perspective, that is 129 times more than the words in the babble (total 774,746). This guy could have probably crapped out a bible every other month if he felt inclined. And it would be more entertaining.
OT
@Ragutis
Opeth and Slayer aint good (as in: not at all) examples of black metal. The church burning stuff I think goes back to the incidents surrounding Burzum and Mayham etc. back in the old days. Those people are really the exception, and in the 21st century, I guess the worst thing one can say about the scandinavian black metal crowd is that they have crypto-racist and xenophobic tendencies.
In the black metal scene, there’s at least one theistic satanist: Gorgoroth guitarist Infernus. Some of the paganism of black metal goes beyond mere imagery, too, with some practising pagans making up part of the scene. Agree with Ragitus that it’s mainly imagery; there’s definitely an anti-Christian assault in much of what makes up metal, though there’s not much really affirming a particular outlook on the world.
/metalnerd
Shorter yec123;
“Herp. Derp. Durrrrrrrr.”
Repeat as necessary.
Seriously, if it takes this little effort to be wrong on the internet, can’t we work out some kind of access issue to prevent the terminally unintelligent from pissing in the pool.
Actually, wait, no, that’s wrong. Unintelligent people need to access the internet, it’s just delusion blinded fuckwits that don’t….hmmm ISPs need to do some kind of test.
I kid, I kid….but I do have a vision of yec123 licking his mouse for half an hour before working out for the third time that week how to use it.
Louis
Let’s see oh trollish one ..
I am 100% atheist which I always define for myself as non-belief in the supernatural; oh and I’ve never met an atheist who did not ultimately define it for themselves likewise. But in fairness I and other atheists herein probably meet and know fewer atheists than you do, your being a “yec” and all!
But even if I felt a belief in the supernatural (that which has no natural basis) the minute I ascribed some supernatural agent(s) or entity(s) as the mover and the shaker of this supernatural phenomena, be they a Jesus-type or a Lucifer-type, they in essence would be god(s); so I’d have to turn in my atheist card.
Get it – atheists definitionally have a hard time being atheist Satanists, or Pan-ists, or any such thing.
Oh and you do realize that through history there have been good gods and bad gods. A dichotomy that your early Abrahamists struggled with as they evolved their version of this shit to make sense of their world and to give themselves an edge in the marketplace of control and influence. Lucifer (a god by any definition that is rational) had to be because that was the standard for gods back then. Competing gods helped justify the absolute shit an all good god would not allow or promulgate.
What I find interesting is that the Abrahamists seem to have such a hard time with knowledge and wisdom – i.e.,light. A & E got blasted for partaking from the tree of knowledge. Lucifer is a light (clarity/knowledge) bearer by name.
When Omar Khayyam wrote “Ah, Moon of my Delight who know’st no wane,The Moon of Heav’n is rising once again: How oft hereafter rising shall she look Through this same Garden after me — in vain!” was the final statement one to say the light dissipates the self/ego and lefts one to a different plain with god, or was it to say it dissipates the gods themselves paradoxically?
I spoke to 2 people at the concert – their church was called stairway (as in Stairway to Heaven) and the theme seemed to be: hearing voices from God, seeing and performing miracles, eg diamonds appearing and growing bigger in your hand, healing the sick etc, donating huge sums of Money and ignorance of all science. One guy donates $1000 a month!!
One guy tried to heal my eyesight, but alas I am still wearing glasses, he failed with another lady too.
It was my first time debating and I was there until midnight, but it opened my eyes to just how blind they are! It was a fun night even though it is sad to see the brainwashing.
And I bet the mouse squeeked in delight, until it’s tail was unceremoniously shoved in the USB port