I stopped going to church when I was eleven or twelve. I didn’t leave in anger or despair. I didn’t leave in a huff. Religion had simply stopped making sense to me.
The reasons are pretty common, I’m sure. I had come to see churches as human institutions primarily concerned with perpetuating themselves. The doctrines of salvation or damnation due to accident of birth seemed fundamentally cruel and capricious. I couldn’t understand why an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being was so infantile that it would demand my worship. None of it seemed moral, by any moral standard that I had been taught or understood.
Beyond that, it seemed to me that being moral was important, and that if morality was important, being moral because it was the right thing–rather than out of fear of eternal punishment–was important. The eternal punishments and rewards of Christianity–and I knew no other religion–devalued morality, rather than encouraging it. Instead of making morality the center of a good life, it reduced it to a life of brown-nosing, a way of tricking “Dad” into giving me the keys to the car, when deep inside, I would know I didn’t deserve them.
Religion (and God) became irrelevant. I didn’t so much disbelieve as stop caring. I considered supernaturality as supernatural and therefore beyond knowing. I called myself an agnostic, not because I wrestled with the existence of God, but because I didn’t care about it. I didn’t believe in God, but neither did I believe in the non-existence of God.
While that position hasn’t changed, I now call myself an atheist, recognizing that I don’t believe in God, and that atheism describes that position better than agnostic.
So, why am I not open about it? I face no individual social sanction not to proclaim my beliefs. There are no clubs *I* wish to join that would exclude me for atheism. I live in a community where acknowledgement of atheism wouldn’t affect me, personally. Churches are peripheral here, not central.
My son, however, had some brain damage at birth. He is a wonderful kid. His disabilities are not extreme, but they are present and noticeable. As a result, he is socially isolated. Secular organizations have failed completely in addressing the social needs of our sons. The organizations that have accepted him, where the kids have welcomed him and helped him be part of the group have all had religious elements. I feel a responsibility to participate in those organizations, to recognize the value their acceptance provides for kids like my son. That’s part of my own, personal morality.
Some of those organizations–Boy Scouts, in particular–do not allow atheists to participate.
I would prefer, of course, to find organizations that accept without the strains of religiosity, but I’m not in a position to make that choice. When we find something that works for us, a group where he’s accepted, we have to stick with it. I have to give back to the organizations that support those groups, even if they’re flawed.
Perhaps it would have been possible to find non-religious organizations that were accepting and supportive. We found the ones we found. I might have looked harder in the atheist community if not for its intellectual snobbery, if not for its habit of mocking those who write confused letters and e-mails.
Within the adult atheist community I see wit and intellectual consistency. I see vigorous and rigorous argument. I see courage and conviction. What I don’t see much of, is kindness. Maybe when the movement gets past the sexism and classism debates, when it’s carved out enough social space that it doesn’t feel the need to constantly be on the attack, there will be room for more of it.
bob
Very moving and eye-opening. Thank you!
Where I come from, organisations that help people (hospitals, schools, associations that help people with sick/disabled children, ect.) have been taken out of the hands of the religious, specifically the Catholic church’s, through a concerted effort by our government.
The thing is those associations didn’t become “atheist”, they became secular – they don’t care, and don’t want to hear about, your religious affiliation. That’s what you should strive for. Creating separate and parallel organisations is both divisive and a waste of ressources.
And political pressure is probably the only way it can be done, since most of the money that funds these organisations comes in the form of subsidies, be they direct or in the form of tax exemption. I think one of the best thing that could be done to make it happen is the loss of tax exempt status for all religious organisations.
Bob – a very moving and honest piece – thanks. I hope people pay attention.
I’m not sure I’m interpreting this sentence correctly, but my reaction was that sexism, classism, and other -isms certainly aren’t kind, either. The atheist and secular movement as a whole isn’t going to get a hell of a lot kinder until it comes to terms with these prejudices and understands why it needs to do the same charitable outreach that some churches do.
This right here is the core indictment. Secular organizations in America often do a piss poor job of building community, especially for the disadvantaged.
I’m starting to see a portion of the Atheist movement move towards outreach and community building, but it would be nice if humanism became a stronger voice in the community.
So therefore stamp your feet and whine that a movement that is still fairly new coupled with secularism that has been struggling against an increasingly potent religious country isn’t helping you enough?
How about, you know, trying to help? It’s people who stand up and aren’t kind that have provided enough of a foundation of the secular aide that’s available.
What’s available wasn’t established by people merely whining that others weren’t handing them help on a silver platter.
I think we have to accept that Atheists have no common “cause” except for the fact that we are Atheists. When I give money to charity, I’m doing it neither because of or in spite of my Atheism, but because a part of me, apparently, has some altruistic motives
My son has Aspergers syndrome. As a family we are involved with an Asperger’s association which has no religious affiliation. I know that some of the families are religious, some aren’t, but the purpose of the Association has nothing to do with any kind of doctrine, religious or otherwise. At least where I live (in Spain, supposedly a religious country) there are many non-religious charities to give to.
I think it’s not quite correct to view Atheists as being unkind simply because they don’t tend to gang together under banners in the way religious people do.
Let’s not forget that our ideas about deities don’t make us good or bad, it’s what we do and say that matters. Plenty of religious people are kind, caring individuals, plenty of them are complete shits, and I suppose the same can be said about non-believers too.
JT, I suggest you reread this part of the article…
I don’t appreciate your attitude, bob. It’s like you’re saying that my daughter, Drabidiot, and son, Pushead, have been ill-raised by being toughened up by ridicule, when they can take out a kid with disabilities from 30 yards, and a normal kid at 15 yards, with their insults.
As Thomas Jefferson said, ridicule is all that you can use against a bunch of stupid gits, so have at ’em.
And as I said, “Kindness? Where’s the fun in that?”
Otherwise, make your own community. Sheez, like that’s hard.
Quite seriously, I’m glad that your kid comes first, not abstractions.
Glen Davidson
JT it did not sound like bob was whinning or stamping his feet to me though your reaction on the other hand I won’t try to characterize. It sounds like Bob is just facing the real world he lives in making his personal decisions. He has not found the secular organizations that he and his son need is a fact. Here in the US that is difficult to do today now. That is not his fault nor anyone else it is just a fact.
I heard a piece on the radio about a book for the middle school reader which was asking “would you rather be right or kind?”
Interesting question to ask myself and think of the implications considering some of the discussions we have had lately with people who lacked any empathy at all.
The whole question included in these why I’m an atheist essays of confronting this I am alive now and later I will be dead what is all of that and how do I get from here now to then later? Who are all these others who are here with me, what of them are great way to stimulate thought, getting me off of the mundane concerns or esoteric minutia that I usually distract myself with.
uncle frogy
A conscience check for sure. If you’re offended by bob’s comments, then that part was for you.
Sorry to sound so harsh, but by pretending to go along with theistic organisations, you are making yourself part of the problem.
As Greta wrote some time ago, religion depends on social consent to survive. Deny it that consent, and it will shrivel up and die.
AJS,
You did read that bit where his son has some brain damage?
Hey, hey, hey! While I appreciate the sentiment, I really take issue with the implied idea that attacking sexism and racism are unkind. Sexism and racism are what is unkind. Ableism, the prejudice that keeps atheists from adequately considering the needs of people like your son, is unkind. Attacking bigotry is part of the struggle to make the atheist social movement a kinder movement in general.
Well, there’s some confusion here.
These debates aren’t just happening within atheism. They’re happening within atheism because they’re happening in the wider society.
So atheism will “get past” sexism and classism debates when, and no sooner than, society generally “gets past” sexism and classism debates, which in turn will occur when, and no sooner than, sexism and classism cease to exist.
+++++
It would have been an otherwise fine letter if you hadn’t taken this opportunity to tell us that you don’t care about sexism and classism.
Well, there’s some confusion here.
These debates aren’t just happening within atheism. They’re happening within atheism because they’re happening in the wider society.
So atheism will “get past” sexism and classism debates when, and no sooner than, society generally “gets past” sexism and classism debates, which in turn will occur when, and no sooner than, sexism and classism entirely cease to exist.
+++++
It would have been an otherwise fine letter if you hadn’t taken this opportunity to tell us that you don’t care about sexism and classism.
Well, there’s some confusion here.
These debates aren’t just happening within atheism. They’re happening within atheism because they’re happening in the wider society.
So atheism will “get past” sexism and classism debates when, and no sooner than, society generally “gets past” sexism and classism debates, which in turn will occur when, and no sooner than, sexism and classism entirely cease to exist.
+++++
It would have been an otherwise fine letter if you hadn’t taken this opportunity to tell us that you don’t care about sexism and classism.
Its seems this is an evil cycle that will be difficult to break. If and when I someday have children, I will likely do just as Bob has done and simply step in with the herd in order to create a better life for my child.
Atheists fear being ostracized by society for being out, so we stay in. We have kids that want to join in all the reindeer games, but the fear of ostracization keeps us again, in the closet. This fear discourages any one of us from creating a group to support fellow atheists (and their kids) and likewise also discourages people from joining said group.
I don’t think Bob is motivated by fear, he seems very apathetic toward religion and very empathetic toward his child’s affliction, so he eats a little crow now and again for the sake of his child. I want to simultaneously applaud and berate him, and tell him I would do the same.
It would be interesting to know how many of those writing in to castigate Bob for his remarks have never had kids.
Is anyone here surprised by this?
Bob,
Thanks for a really heartfelt and thoughtful piece. I think some people view kindness as a weakness but it is still possible to be outspoken and kind.
I don’t see your story as criticising challenges to sexism and other isms, rather it isolating out that, as a community, we are still working our way through issues around these. Once we get such issues sorted then we may be able to focus more on other things such as outreach
Komponist:
I’m sure there are plenty of parents here who aren’t that pleased with his remark that “attacks” over sexism and classism are pointless and stupid.
Gee, I think that calls for a citation.
Glen Davidson
If you read Bob’s comment that he sees in the movement “wit and intellectual consistency…vigorous and rigorous argument…courage and conviction”, this is not inconsistent with his observation of the existence of sexism and classism debates.
He notes that the “attack” is in order to carve out social space.
I didn’t see him say “pointless and stupid” anywhere.
I got the point that he was looking for a safe place for his son and was hoping that, in the future, atheist organizations will be big and established enough to have room for something more than the culture wars.
Many people have found Pharyngula to be a safe virtual atheist community. Bob just couldn’t find a safe real atheist one for his son. I hope we can all take that to heart.
What I don’t see much of, is, atheists.
Look, I don’t know how kind or unkind atheists are, but certainly a rather big reason why there aren’t good community groups for your son is that communities tend to be dominated by the religious, and have the critical mass.
Don’t mistake quantities for qualities.
Glen Davidson
Is Glen Davidson also whining about atheists debating sexism and classism?
Or did Glen Davidson just fail to read for comprehension?
Bob,
I agree with your approach with respect to your kids. I think my son (almost an Eagle!) has benefitted greatly from his experiences with the Boy Scouts, even though it’s been tough biting my tongue at times. I was very much an “out” atheist in high school and college and in the early years of my career. I’ve been pretty quiet about it since my son joined the Scouts so that I could register as a leader and fully participate. I even “signed” the declaration of religious princliple on the leader application. By a happy coincidence my legal signature is indistinguishable from my hastily scrawled “That’s Bullshit”.
There are some real bible-thumpers in the troop who must have their suspicions about me since I never bow my head during their numerous prayers and always seem to miss the “Scout’s Own” religious indocrination on outings. (Evidently, no one has noticed that I say “one nation, without a god” during the pledge of allegiance.) Heck, I’ve even referred to the leaders of the national organization as a bunch of bigots. I’ve fully expected to be questioned about these things and am fully prepared to refuse to discuss it. It’s not the confrontational response that I want to give, but I’ll make a small sacrifice for my son’s benefit.
Well, shithead, I see you can accuse without evidence, you just can’t be bothered to back up your attempts at defamation.
Yes, I can read, fuckwit. Time for you to learn what words mean in a sentence, disingenuous asshole.
Glen Davidson
I hope people at least try to consider this passage the next time they respond to a post by saying “(f-word) you, you (f-word)ing idiot!!!” and doing nothing but starting a flame war (while also believing they have the intellectual high-ground):
“I might have looked harder in the atheist community if not for its intellectual snobbery, if not for its habit of mocking those who write confused letters and e-mails.
Within the adult atheist community I see wit and intellectual consistency. I see vigorous and rigorous argument. I see courage and conviction. What I don’t see much of, is kindness. Maybe when the movement gets past the sexism and classism debates, when it’s carved out enough social space that it doesn’t feel the need to constantly be on the attack, there will be room for more of it.”
…I hope that someone considers it next time they see a post where someone says something that would be offensive to some group and, instead of trying to start a reasonable discussion by saying something like “Hey, have you ever considered why your statement might be offensive to…” they say “F you you f-ing (bigot against whatever group” and a thread is started where, instead of someone considering the other’s point and maybe learning something, they spend two hundred posts trying to justify (really only to themselves) why it is the other one who is the REAL bigot.
I realize most people aren’t like that but the few that are only serve to give all atheists a bad rap.
Ooh tone trolling.
Uh. The evidence is all right here in this thread. Here, I’ve quoted it all again for convenience.
Okay? I guess that rules out the second option; so Glen Davidson is also whining about atheists debating sexism and classism.
Uh. The evidence is all right here in this thread. Here, I’ve quoted it all again for convenience.
Okay? I guess that rules out the second option; so Glen Davidson is also whining about atheists debating sexism and classism.
I guess I’m not really surprised either way. I haven’t paid enough attention to you to realize this was your stance.
When I was in the Boy Scouts, some troops outright told us to leave because we were atheists. Fortunately, we lived in a dense urban area, so it was possible to look around, and we finally found one a bit further away that accepted us. I stayed there until I made Eagle.
The Boy Scouts is a great organization. The people make it great. It’s not perfect — we also have problems with their refusal to let gay people participate — but I’d rather fix them. If I have sons, I would be glad if they wanted to join the Scouts.
‘Fraid not, dunce. You just assert and reassert your lies, like the mendacious fuck that you are.
Clever moron. Set up a false dilemma, lie, and then declare victory. Like any fundamentalist cretin might do.
Yeah, I can tell that you haven’t paid any attention to what was actually written, but only decided to lie about anybody and everybody that points out what a mindless and hateful fool you actually are.
Well, since I know that vile hateful beings like you who never once tried to make a case for your lies aren’t at all inclined to stop lying, I’ll say get fucked, and I’m out of this thread. There’s no point in dealing further with dishonest hatemongers like yourself.
Glen Davidson
Glen Davidson / life is like a pitbull with lipstick
QED
Um. I’m sorry? What else was there which I failed to quote?
Huh.
If you’re going to say it’s a false dilemma, then it might be helpful if you’d explain what your disagreement was about in the first place.
It is now looking more like you can’t read for comprehension, but you don’t know it. (Which makes sense, I guess. How would you know it?)
Not all your posts in other threads, no. But I have tried to pay attention in this one. Your obfuscation isn’t terribly helpful.
+++++
I love you, Glen Davidson! Never change.
Fuck you, FreeTotebag, you fucking, whining, mealy-mouthed, prissy idiot.
This is the classical “herding cats” problem. Freethinking people are hard to manage because we don’t fall in lockstep. I also notice a kind of individuality (and perhaps an assumption that all people are as intelligent and self-directed…) among us. We also, as noted above, do charity etc. not for any given cause but because it’s the right thing to do.
Yeah, the BSA (Scouts) is a problem. A conundrum. Its frustrating that they get so much right, but ultimately, fail.
Still, I believe that you never really lose, as long as you can talk. Change from within the system is much more likely than change from without.
Peace,
Hans
@20:
Agreed.
However, from my own personal experience, I would hazard the guess that having kids very often radically alters one’s list or priorities, and that the welfare of the child/children usually goes to the top of the list. Not everyone’s priorities are the same, and it is impossible for everything to be number 1 on the list. In Bob’s case, I can’t blame him for placing his son’s welfare at the top. I imagine that sexism, etc. are on his list of concerns (he didn’t say that they weren’t), but maybe not in the first position on his list of priorities. YMMV.
hans #36
One of the major problems with the BSA is they’ve been taken over by the goddists. For instance, the Mormons have been using Boy Scouts as their male youth group. According to the phffft! of all knowledge:
More like on the defense. We live in a society that is deeply, viscerally unfriendly to us as a group–and one which is under concerted pressure by religious conservatives. Many of us became vocal and upset only when we realized the assault that secular society is currently under (e.g., creationists gaining footholds on school boards). A lot of the quickness to attack that you’re seeing is a response to attacks that we’re subject to.
An admirable sentiment, and well put.
komponist, as a father myself I can attest that putting your children’s welfare in top priority doesn’t necessarily mean changing your priorities–at least not in ways that I think you mean. My kids are being raised in an (almost) entirely secular environment and are attending very good public schools. This isn’t to criticize Bob’s choice–I think we have much better choices available to us. Our kids aren’t special needs, and public services are probably much more available here than where he lives.