There I was, minding my own business, when out of the blue some random guy going by the name “principles101” tweets at me…
@pzmyers time for some real biology lessons: goo.gl/obiC
Oh hellz yeah, I think, I love me some biology lessons. So I follow the link, and it’s a free textbook, it says. Only it’s at some site called Manhood Academy, with cheesy clashy glarey page design, and … you can guess where this is going. Sure, it’s a free “book” that you can download, but there isn’t a speck of biology in it. It cockily calls itself “The Principles of Social Competence“, but it isn’t even that — it’s a ridiculous fantasy novel, 292 pages long, in which the authors stroke themselves by inventing elaborate dialogs and scenarios in which the manly men they are instructing all emerge victorious, with gorgeous cowed women clinging tremblingly to their burly powerful arms.
Mostly this is accomplished by pretending that women are like puppy dogs, and it is the man’s job to train her. For instance, if you encounter a girl who doesn’t know how to take a compliment, there’s a little script for what you should say:
“No that’s the wrong answer. You don’t just say, ‘Hah, right.’ That’s a total turn off. You need to learn how to show some appreciation. When I tell you that I like the way you smile, that it turns me on, you should say, ‘Oh my god! That’s soooooo sweet of you!!!! Thank you!!!!.’ See, just like that. That’s the right way to do it.”
You know, if I tried that on a real woman, rather than the Barbie doll the author is posing in his mind, she would either be rightfully creeped out and run away, or she’d focus her withering scorn on my assumption that her purpose in life is to “turn me on”.
Apparently, though, I just have to be persistent.
By consistently punishing a woman’s dysfunctional behavior, she will eventually submit to your will. This means she now fears your authority and values your expectations.
Once a woman submits to your authority, you need to reward her with your praise and affection to maintain her submission.
Give her a biscuit, too, and if she forgets her training, slap her on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
There’s the usual caricature of feminism — “At its heart, feminism represents women’s desire to control men” — lots of long-winded pop pseudopsychology, all larded up with so much random clip art that it will make your eyes ache. Oh, and please do read the section beginning at page 238: “How to handle bitch behavior”. Apparently, the best way to handle a woman is to just call her a “bitch” over and over again until she cries and succumbs to your irresistible manhood. Then you can call her a “cunt” to make her beg for your lovin’.
It’s an eye-opener. There are actually men in existence who are that stupid that they believe that BS. Look and laugh: if you’ve ever been curious about what exactly is so unbelievably inane about MRAs and PUAs, it’s a useful example.
Naw. She will just end up afraid of you and probably get a restraining order. She may also buy a gun, just in case.
I dunno; some guy calling me a bitch or a cunt is extraordinarily likely to get him a boot in the nuts. Does this book come with a free athletic cup, perchance? It should.
Well, shit. It looks like these MRA douchecanoes got a hold of our super-secret feminazi handbook! Our plans are all ruined!
Abort, ladies! Abort!
The moron guy was born a few centuries too late.
I am so tired of this incredibly stupid canard. Yes, yes, those uppity bitches only want to control menz, yessir! However, this:
is not the desire to control women? Interesting how their pea-brains work.
Uh huh. That’s a “love” the world can do without. Bleeuuch.
All this talk of obedience just makes me feel bitchy. *grrrrrrrrrr*
Audley:
Oh great, now their going to be chasing us with transvaginal scan wands…
Also:
is kind of funny* considering the US’s current political climate. I mean, women are at this very moment trying to fight back against the
menpoliticians who are passing anti-abortion/anti-birth control legislation. We are literally losing control over our own bodies (and lives), forfeit to the state.*Not funny ha ha, funny oh shit.
Looked at it. My Poe sensor needle wiggled a bit. But if it is real, it’s the most disgusting thing I’ve seen since the Catholic post earlier.
“Bitches.”
Rhymes with “stitches”.
Which are what any moron who actually tries this crap is going to need.
All I can think of this: Eeewwwwww….
Ok seriously. You need to cut that shit out.
Ing:
Seconded.
Ing,
Seriously!
A R. stop doubting everything. You are doing more fucking harm than good with your god forsaken insinuations that this shit isn’t real.
If you need to do “more research” or whatever will satisfy your desire to second guess every goddamn thing, fine, but shut the hell up about it.
I am so fucking sick of this attitude.
Ing for Threadcop!
re: the OP: some men are slime! film at eleven!
Guys!
The Principles of Social Competence shit isn’t misogynistic! Trayvon Martin’s murder wasn’t racially motivated! How do I know these things? ‘Cos A. R has some fucking doubts.
*spits*
Unfortunately, prior experience has shown it’s the real deal.
Audley:
So am I, especially in light of all the hours you and I and so many others of the Horde have put in on these issues, dealing with people who think this way and don’t have any problem with it.
Does anyone else read this and think ‘xkcd’s “Pickup Artist”‘?
“Apparently, the best way to handle a woman is to just call her a “bitch” over and over again until she …” opens the door and says, “Out! Now!”
Audley:
Can I at least keep the decoder ring? Pleeeeeeeease????!?
I think I’ll start a movement where instead of calling someone a dick or a prick or a cunt, we’ll call them “Islets of Langerhans” or, possibly, “Duodenum”. It’d strike a blow for originality, anyway.
I’m not a violent person. Really. Yet a cursory glance through this steaming pile of shit made me want to commit bloody murder. It’s hard to imagine these fools are capable of rational thought, or of learning.
Chas:
Aaaaw, aren’t you the asshole. Have a nice cup of STFU, Chas.
Chas — lay off Ing and stop being such a fucknugget. Jeezis you’re an asshole.
@Josh
It’s ok. He’s an adult who has declared me his enemy.
Also it’s absurd. i can’t be a Thread Cop. I AM THE CZAR OF COMMENTS! I, AND I ALONE, CHOOSE WHAT IS OT! I can’t do the peasant work of constableary!!
pensnest #21
Actually they are capable of rational thought. What they are incapable of is empathy. They have no concern for anyone other than themselves or the other dudebros whose approval they crave.
Audley:
Ya know, I had a small eyebrow lift over the Dr. LeDice & Prof. Plum, however, it doesn’t matter. Why? Because most of the assholes don’t want their real names known and even if it was a poe, how many of these douchetarts have we run into at this point? The ones who buy into to this sort of shit lock, stock and barrel?
[meta]
Re:
We are all aware of the point of Poe’s Law, right?
(When something is ridiculous enough, parody of it becomes indistinguishable from the real thing — that is, there’s a real thing there)
Speaking of which some of you thread cops should report to a disturbance on that thread. We are far too busy
I suppose my tendency to doubt the reality of crazy/deeply disturbing things until I’ve done the research is a result of my science background. Therefore I shall refrain from posting on such threads until such a point that I satisfy my questions.
Aye aye, Captain Ing!
Incorrect. it is a result of an emotional not rational response.
For ME fans
Shepard: “Im sorry…the Geth are better than this”
Geth Legion: “Objective evidence suggests that we are not”
A.R:
Bullshit. You are far from the only scientist here, and they don’t have the same need to go all Pollyanna over every ugly behaviour humans indulge in. Perhaps they are all more reality based than you are, as you seem to be determined to keep a highly sheltered view.
You cannot assert that from your position. What special knowledge do you posses of my brain that fucking entitles you to write that?
… please let this be parody.
There’s a Chinese fable of a farmer clearing his land when a rabbit, perhaps fleeing a predator, darts across his uncleared field, runs headlong into a small tree-stump, bashing its little head. The farmer has rabbit stew for dinner. But then he spends the rest of his life standing over the tree-stump waiting for another rabbit to smack into it.
I will guess that this domineering, controlling behavior once worked for somebody somewhere, maybe in the distant backwaters of time, resulting in someone getting laid or having a girlfriend for a few minutes. Rabbit. Stump. Stew. Now we have nitwits who ape this behavior expecting the same result.
Good luck and don’t forget to wear your protective cup – you’re going to need it. You might try on a sturdy helmet with a face-mask too, while you’re at it.
You repeat a pattern that leads to an emotionally favorable outcome in numerous instances regardless of data. Your first instinct is to doubt the data. The conclusion that is most favorable to you is that it is an emotional response.
A.R:
It’s easy. We go by the crap you write.
Me:
Also, it’s obvious that it’s an emotional reaction on your part. You simply don’t want to believe humans can be so…icky, so out come your doubts, excuses and so forth.
It would be indicated by the fact that you apparently associate deeply disturbing with doubt. If this were something that went against observed reality, and that was why you doubted it, that would make sense from a scientific-background standpoint. But if you doubt the reality of something because it disturbs you, that would seem to indicate an emotional response.
[Needs to remember to reload before submitting]
Caine: I’m quite aware that I’m not the only person with a science background here (I won’t call myself a scientist, I’m a student). On thinking about it, I’ll concede that it is some kind of protectionistic emotional response. Something I need to work on. But to dismiss everything I write as “crap” on the basis of fewer than five of my comments? That’s a bit extreme.
^oops, accidental strawman here: “But to dismiss everything I write as “crap” on the basis of fewer than five of my comments? That’s a bit extreme.” Reread the comment, Forget I wrote that.
The saddest part of all this is that these guys are right. If you treat a woman like that, there is a certain percentage who will buy into it instead of shooting the piece of shit in the balls.
Women’s shelters exist because these men are right all too often. The Crisis Centre I worked at for 6 years existed in part because of men like that.
Poe? Not a chance (unless POE is an acronym for Piles Of Excrement).
Every one of those assholes desperately needs to be trapped on a freight elevator with a dozen women armed with switchblades, salt, and a perverse sense of humour.
I’m still digging back through the Wayback Machine, but it looks like this is a re-do on the “book” they originally called “Principles 101”. I may have to bleach my brain later tonight and I’m considering drinking heavily. The Dec. 2, 2009 Wayback crawl first pops “Principles 101”. By the May 24, 2010 crawl, it’s been retitled “The Principles of Social Consequence” and the covers changed from a bunch of middle fingers surrounded by bitch, pussy and whatnot to its current state of a low-tech stock image montage. The contents are the same old dreck. The IP for the site is based out of Colorado (no offense to any non-whackaloon Coloradans in the audience).
ambassadorfromverdammt:
These men aren’t right. They’re advocating finding a woman with low self-esteem and probably other issues and stomping on her even more. Unfortunately, there’s no shortage of people with low self-esteem, women and men.
PZ, didn’t you read their restrictions on use of their work? You are not allowed to quote the book. At all. You’re gonna hear from their lawyers now.
Gotta love the part where the author condemns society for calling male sexuality animalistic, and then excusing rape with the tired old “male biology” bullshit.
Also, this: “Allowing women to vote is no different than allowing children togovern themselves.” (Shit, now their lawyers are after me too, huh?)
WTF!
A.R. – I haven’t seen you express immediate doubt that the entire OP is wrong in any cases except those in which some guy comes off as an asshole. Why is it that only those stories ping on your “need more research” radar?
Right, you need to answer that legitimate question. Be brutally honest with yourself. But knowing the true answer will help you.
carlie: Not sure, might be because I already know how bad the Catholics, Ken Ham, Bananaman’s helper, et al. are due to specific experience. I actually research most of the posts, I just don’t talk about it all of the time.
whatlint #47
Hilarious is not the word I would use.
This. These aren’t tips for how to find a girlfriend, they’re tips for how to groom a victim.
Also, you really need to just have a glance at their table of contents before you call them “right.” Their obsession appears to be feminism, and everything they say about it is bizarrely, hideously wrong.
You just gots to “love” manly men who are so manly that they didn’t sign their names at all to the first version and came up with some pretty lame nom de plumes for the retitled version. Way to show the courage of your convictions, lads! I’ve got to agree with several previous posters–this is a handbook for grooming victims.
Whatlint:
Has the lint invaded your brain? That is not hilarious. It’s not remotely funny in any way.
AR—you really, really need to work on that. You always ping on these because some part of you wants not to believe/acknowledge endemic misogyny. It’s not about a lack of research (really it isn’t). It’s that you, by default, categorize these claims as astonishing and in need of research. That’s a bias on your part that would be forgiveable but for the fact that you’ve seen so much of it demonstrated here that you no longer have a legitimate right to that stance.
You don’t mean badly, but your default reaction is seriously not helping and it pisses people off for good reasons. Stop doing that, please. Recalibrate your meter so that your default reaction is “Fucking hell, yet more of it. I’m gonna shout this behavior down.”
If anyone is wondering and doesn’t want to click on the links provided by whatlint (I would encourage you not to, as we don’t want to contribute views to these assholes), the first video is “The Story of Feminism — as Told by WOMEN” made by 101Principles. It is extremely badly made and consists of obnoxious music, pictures, and text effects interspersed with women speaking. I did not watch all of it so I don’t know all the shit that’s in there, but one of the things is a bunch of different women saying that violence against women needs to be ended, followed by clips of men being hit by women. Also, 99 Problems is playing in the background of that part.
The second one is more of the same. It’s called The Effects of Emasculation and is completely hideous in every way. Pictures of guys dressed in ways these people apparently consider insufficiently masculine abound. Oh, and the word “mangina.”
CC:
I clicked and stayed just long enough to see what the vid was and who uploaded it. Anyone who finds such crap hilarious is not someone I care to have a discussion with when it comes to how women are treated and viewed by a substantial amount of men.
A. R.
Surely the correct sceptical/scientific approach is to assume that such people mean just what they say until evidence shows otherwise, not the other way around?
Though in cases as barbaric as this, I’d agree that there’s a natural tendency to hope that no one could actually mean it. Sadly, the very existence of Poe’s law means that even if one particular person doesn’t, another person does.
From my personal DSM:
–
Projection
On a religious* level, this defense mechanism takes the form of frank delusions about (usually persecutory) and frank denial of external reality and includes both perception of one’s own feelings in another and subsequent acting on that perception (psychotic paranoid delusions).
These impulses may derive from the id (whispered teases from the Evil Fairy [I Want]) or the superego (hallucinated recriminations from the Big Fairy [I Must]) and often undergo transformation in the process. Thus, normal libidinal impulses are transformed into hatred and then projected onto the object of the unacceptable impulse.
These are Operant Behaviors. They are intentional responses to the environment and are under the control of the actor.
–
(*) Men typically worship their penises so this “manology” BS fits the religion model to a “T”.
Proposed edit :P
CC: The second video was odd… Didn’t watch the first.
CC:
Works for me. You’re such a good editor.
Oh look. Someone forgot to clean up after their dog.
A big steaming pile of shit right in the middle of this nice clean thread. What a shame.
Oh, how nice, our own personal “pickup artist” in training. Not sure how that’s supposed to work. The word “cunt” makes people very relaxed and happy you know. I can hear the banhammer case opening.
b.
If they’re into that sort of thing, they might call that a successful pick up.
More like proof that you assholes literally can’t get women to talk to you.
*hangs up label* “IRONY”
Just a reminder to everybody! If you don’t want unsightly troll droppings like what Whatlint just said to appear on your screen, you can try killfile. It’s available through the Pharyngula Wiki, which unfortunately I can’t link here for some reason. Just google the Pharyngula Wiki, which should be located at Wikia, and search Greasemonkey.
After a double post.
Everyone turn off the irony meters.
whatlint: It’s pretty clear that you aren’t putting any effort into sounding intelligent.
These people clearly have so much to offer the discussion.
Whatlint:
Goodness, what an erudite and compelling argument. :yawns:
Comment by whatlint blocked. [unkill][show comment]
Misogynist troll is misogynist.
Truly the height of wit.
A.R:
Why don’t you stop talking to it, especially given your doubts that these types of people are for real.
Most obvious killfile candidate of the week.
I think the URL got caught in FTB’s spam filter when I had it linked from my nym. Somebody’s going to have to remove it manually.
By consistently punishing a woman’s dysfunctional behavior, she will eventually submit to your will. This means she now fears your authority and values your expectations.
Was anyone else reminded of the Pearl book on childrearing when reading this? It struck me that the PUA is trying to be the same sort of god-like unbeatable authority figure to their romantic partners that the Pearls try to convince parents that they should be to their child. Which is screwy on so many different levels that I don’t think I could list them all in a single comment.
Oh he’s just a Poe
Caine: Never said that I doubted they’re real. Just said that I was wondering about the OP, a sentiment that I’ve retracted.
CC:
Yes, as long as the words are kept to one syllable stupid speak.
A.R:
The one that refuses to credence things that everyone else can see with their own fucking eyes, simply because they don’t cause you any personal suffering?
Ambassadorfromverdammt:
Some women are highly vulnerable to abuse, often because they were brought up in abusive atmospheres and taught they deserve nothing better. Whoda thunk. As you’ve already been told, that doesn’t make these assbags “right.” It makes them predators.
Whatlint, does mommy know you’re bothering strangers on the internet? Do your problems with women arise from your loathing of mommy telling you what to do? You know, when she tells you to leave the nice people making big words in the bright square box alone, or not to play with with your pee-pee in the middle of the supermarket, or to get out of the public swimming pool before you go poo-poo… she’s right.
whatlint:
Does that actually mean something? Sorry, I get totes distracted by morons who abuse exclamation points.
Dianne:
It didn’t strike me at the time, now you mention it, yes, there are similarities. It’s all the same creepy basis of “the patriarchy is correct, it’s the only right way, submit and obey.” Ugh.
PZeeeeeeeeeee (that is how I say it when I am whining petulantly), this chewtoy broke apart right away and all this rotten icky fluff spilled out :( how will my teeth ever remain sniny or my coat glossy on such poor fare?
How does one get/create a killfile, please? I’m on Firefox, if that makes a difference. I assume I need a plug-in of some kind.
Hmmm. Matriarchy shows up, gets chewed up and spat out. Matriarchy disappears, Oligarchy of Wimmin shows up, and is ignored. OoW disappears, SwaggeringPenis shows up and is dismissed with boredom on the Hordes part. SP disappears, Whatlint shows up with the overwhelming urge to shout cunt! every 5 seconds.
Still boring, Cupcake. Might as well go for the next incarnation now.
Daz: http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Greasemonkey
Daz, you need to google & install Greasemonkey first, then go to
pharyngula dot wikia dot org/wiki/greasemonkey
and you’ll find the killfile there
You go to the Pharyngula Wiki and search for Greasemonkey. Click on Greasemonkey on that page, install that, and then install the killfile you’ll find on the same page.
Daz, go to the Pharyngula Wiki (linking isn’t allowed right now) and search Greasemonkey. You will need Greasemonkey and you can get the script at the wiki.
@Daz:
follow this link for a decent explanation:
http://caulfield.info/emmet/2008/11/installing-killfile-in-firefox.html
I sensed a disturbance in the Force. Is there wanton trollery occuring? Oh gosh, yes there is. Is it on a thread about misogyny? Hmmm yes it is. Is it some utter douche-bundle calling women “cunts” and spooging his troll batter everywhere as if he had a point? Oh dear, yes it is THAT again. Is he ironically calling other people stupid whilst being barely literate? Why yes, yes he is.
Well it’s good to know we’ve progressed as a species. This behaviour is so novel. Maybe he could tell us all what’s wrong with Rebecca Watson, or perhaps that he loves women. If we’re really lucky, he could make rape threats or set up a hoggling site dedicated to endless streams of vitriolic hate-jism. {Sigh} So nice, so joyous, so familiar.
As for that “book”, forgive me, I’ve been in contact with enough shit to know it stinks, I won’t be immersing myself in it neck deep this time just to see if it’s a different aroma. It really won’t be.
Louis
!!!
Ms. Daisy Cutter linked it!
Can I link it too now? http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Greasemonkey
Nope, sorry. That works on Sciblogs, not FtB.
!!!
Ms. Daisy Cutter linked it!
HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE
Wait it works now!
*rejoice*
Daz:
You need Greasemonkey for Firefox, then get yourself a killfile script.
@Who Cares
That version of killfile doesn’t work here. We had to fork it. Ours is stored on our wiki.
CC:
Echoes the *rejoice* Yay!
Or, you know, do what everyone else said. :p
Damn, kiddo, are you still here? Well, you’ve got persistence, I’ll give you that. But nobody cares. Fly away, little mosquito, before you get smacked.
CC:
I haz a theory, see #92.
Wow! Thanks for all the replies. Already had Greasemonkey, so twas a doddle. And Whatlint shall trouble my screen no more. Bliss!
I held my nose and skimmed maybe fifty pages throughout the “book.” While a lot of it appears dedicated to abusing women, there’s quite a bit of garbage on behaving in generally socially acceptable ways – implying that this nonsense was written for the fantasy-fulfillment of socially inept man-children who are resentful that their attempts to get a girlfriend have failed. It seems to be less of a how-to guide and more of a wishful-thinking perspective from a 28-year-old virgin, the way the author constantly hammers on ORDER AND DISORDER! MEN ARE SUPERIOR TO WOMEN! SUBMISSION SUBMISSION SUBMISSION! He’s writing what he desperately wishes were true.
I’d mock them gleefully, but we all remember George Sodini. These shits aren’t harmless.
Aww, Caine! Your theory makes him even more pathetic than I thought. I approve :D
Sorry for the wrong link. That one was still in the time that Pharyngula was still on Science blogs and seeing that I have a fairly strong stomach it’s been a while since I actually blocked someone.
Correct link to get the script would be:
http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Greasemonkey
I will guess that this domineering, controlling behavior once worked for somebody somewhere, maybe in the distant backwaters of time, resulting in someone getting laid or having a girlfriend for a few minutes. Rabbit. Stump. Stew. Now we have nitwits who ape this behavior expecting the same result.
Yep. The intro kinda implies that.
“And thank you to all the students at ManhoodAcademy. Your progress verifies the authenticity of this work.”
BTW I’ve just violated his fake “restrictions on use” by quoting his book.
lexd:
There’s no need to impugn 28 year old virgins (or any virgins, for that matter). We have more than a few here. People who have bitter, nasty ass attitudes and rail against women for being uppity bitches generally have either a serious personality problem or asshole syndrome. Virginity doesn’t have much to do with it.
Waitaminute!
By his logic 9or at least the logic of the book), Whatlint is actually HITTING ON the women in this thread. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Dream on, dudebro.
Apologies, Caine – I didn’t mean to impugn virgins, just to continue on with the “obviously failed at conventional dating” train of thought. There’s nothing wrong with not having sex. Hating your preferred gender for not giving you sex, though…
juliehoverson:
Oh my. That’s so terribly pathetic.
The similarities between these people and believers (of any Abrahamic or other patriarchal religion) are amazing. It isn’t the respect or admiration that’s being sought. Instead it’s fear and acquiescence with an open (even eager) hostility towards behavior that’s outside the norm. All with the intention of creating a sort of relationship where one individual literally lives to fulfill the whims of the other.
Scary.
Julie, that’s a good point! Surely we will all become submissive to his manly will any minute now, and then be rewarded by treats and cookies.
…*looks around*
Anybody feeling particularly submissive or obedient toward whatlint here?
No?
*checks watch*
Gee, this is sure disappointing.
[meta]
whatlint:
Idiot is idiotic, is threatened by women, brays like a donkey.
(What a surprise!)
Caine:
Thank you. If it’s not slut-shaming, it’s virgin/prude-shaming. I appreciate it when someone other than me points out how stupid this is.
Here’s a *brownie* and some *beverage of your choice*.
lexd:
Yep, that’s the kettle of fish right there. With these types though, it goes much farther. It’s not enough to have sex, it’s not enough to be in relationship. It’s about having your own personal victim, devaluing another person in order to feel powerful and in control. It’s beyond loathsome.
Nutmeg:
Aaaw, aren’t you sweet! Thank you.
Sorry for the wrong link. That one was still in the time that Pharyngula was still on Science blogs and seeing that I have a fairly strong stomach it’s been a while since I actually blocked someone.
Now back on topic:
My first impression was that the ‘suggestions’ are nothing more then to create something akin to Stockholm syndrome in a person and then abuse that further.
I can understand why something like that appeals to a group of people (I just hope I don’t have any in my circle of acquaintances). Not me though, I rather have someone who speaks her mind when I try to put crap past her. Note that this will lead to spectacular fireworks sometimes but being able to apologize and make up is part of a functioning relationship.
Whocares, I definitely understand why you would say this and agree that it’s better to be in a relationship with equal partners. (Well, actually, I wouldn’t really know. I assume it would be.) But it bothers me on some level when people say things like this, because then the objection becomes about what attracts you in a female partner. It becomes about how a woman can be most pleasing to you, rather than about the fact that manipulating people is wrong, regardless of whether or not you like the outcome. There are women who are like this, for whatever reason, and this shouldn’t be a discussion about whether they would make acceptable partners for any given man.
I’m not saying “NEVER SAY THIS!” or calling you out exactly; I’m just sort of trying to explore why it makes me personally feel uncomfortable when people do say it in these contexts. It kind of reminds me of when people are talking about eating disorders and a man trying to be helpful says that he likes women who have curves. You know?
Caine, if your theory at #92 is correct, this dude is getting lazier with every new incarnation.
CC, #123: Yeah, I dislike that phrasing myself. Not to jump on Who Cares, because I honestly don’t mean to, but your comment also makes me think of the sorts of men who jump into feminist threads about fat-shaming to say that they like larger women. Not simply entirely irrelevant but inappropriate in whom it centers.
CC:
I dislike it for the exact reason you stated – it’s reducing everything to traits I personally like. What is necessary in any relationship is for all parties to view the other[s] as full human beings.
Last I heard, Prof Plum was in the billiard room with Col Mustard playing with each others’ balls.
Nah, that was me. He needed me to check to make sure one wasn’t bigger than the others. I didn’t hold against the guy.
AR~
I understand your reluctance to believe that these idiots are for real. Josh had some nice words to bring me to the reality a few days back, as he seems to have for you as well today.
It IS difficult to believe that people can be so mean, so self-centered and absolutely clueless, but we have the evidence, we cannot deny the existence any longer. My Pollyanna attitude of hoping that people like this aren’t for real has been crushed by relentless reality. Keep your eyes and ears open and fight the good fight!
Funny, I don’t see the debate or the destruction.
What men are you referring to? Do you have a turd in your pocket? With a penis?
By the way, constant compulsive laughter is generally not a good way to show your own intelligence.
Sorry to be your soul-crusher, Starsend42, but it’s better to rip the scab off all at once rather than pulling it slowly:)))
I wondered if PZ should have posted this, given that it just gives the shithead author more hits.
But it occurs to me that lots more feminists read PZ’s blog than misogynists, and being warned about the way that shitheads like the author advocate treating women is better than people being ignorant of the deliberate assholery that the shithead wants to propagate.
In fact, this may rather backfire against the shithead. Just as Googling for Kent Hovind still brings up the scienceblogs/pharyngula page mocking him (Kent Hovind is still in jail), people Googling for may well see this page high in the Google ranks.
Josh~
Needed to done, no worries!
the way the author constantly hammers on ORDER AND DISORDER! MEN ARE SUPERIOR TO WOMEN! SUBMISSION SUBMISSION SUBMISSION! He’s writing what he desperately wishes were true.
Someone needs to read less Gor or at least be clued into the fact that it’s fiction.
It’s strange. Men like this are scary and do real damage, yet they’re so pathetic that it’s hard to take them seriously.
@Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM:
I don’t mind you pointing this out. What I wrote is indeed based on personal preference. Your reasoning is solid.
There is a bit of background I rather keep private but taking that into account what I wrote is more a half baked attempt at a no true Scotsman then a misguided (and misaimed) support attempt.
Owlmirror,
Indeed.
The more people recognise ‘game’ when it’s attempted, the better, IMO.
(Contemptible, it is)
It is authors of this book as well as one particularly assholish boyfriend of one former roommate (I used her order of protection to get him out of our apartment. He rubbed her face on a brick wall the month before.) that are part of the reason why I love Diamanda Galás. These dudez seem to think that a woman is a cruel beast that must be broken and controlled. This fits into my fantasy that for these fine representations of humanity, I am the fucking bloody Beast that will cut them down and feast. That voice, the knifes her looks.
Yeah, it is pure fantasy on my part. I wish I could make their nightmares a reality.
Not at all nice, kind and humane. I know.
“No that’s the wrong answer. You don’t just say, ‘Hah, right.’ That’s a total turn off. You need to learn how to show some appreciation. When I tell you that I like the way you smile, that it turns me on, you should say, ‘Oh my god! That’s soooooo sweet of you!!!! Thank you!!!!.’ See, just like that. That’s the right way to do it.”
When I regained consciousness…
I read through the role-play sections on “punishment” etc…but I started to feel sick.
I was also going to link this to my FB but I’m too afraid people will start reading it for tips on how to be more abusive to women.
@ DavidBuck #137: I actually dated a guy like that. He was a psychopath with scripts in his head for every interaction we had, and he’d “correct” me for responding differently than he thought I should have. It was really bizarro world.
That’s persistence right there.
Whatlint, I see that you’re posting again. If you’ll look up, you’ll see that no one actually gives a fraction of a fuck what you have to say. You’re actually incredibly boring, even as trolls go. Yes, we all see that you can write the same sentence in different permutations over and over. Yes, we see that you are using slurs and too many exclamation points. Yes, we all understand that you’re trolling (incidentally you also believe the shit you’re saying) and it probably gives you a sad little thrill when people treat you like you’re worthy of a response.
Grow up, you useless clod.
Whatlint has been crushed beneath the banhammer, and furthermore, every one of his comments has been deleted. What a scumbag.
Quel domage.
I thought FtB was all about Free Speech(TM). Now I see it’s just about Censorship (TM).
CC:
Oh my, I missed the (not) scintillating stupid speak? Oh well. Buh bye, Matrimony/Oligarchy of Wimmin/SwaggeringPenis/Whatlint.
You know, even if this actually had a chance of working, rather than more probably resulting in the woman in question deciding I was too much of an utter prick and/or weirdo to be worth bothering with, I, personally, can think of no more boring a relationship than having a partner who is utterly submissive to me, so why would I bother doing this?
aaaand I missed the whole thing.
again.
…I think that’s when they go looking for a fresh one. *shudder*
Me @136:
Ooops. That should read Matriarchy.
Very true, of course–think Rick Santorum. Even more puzzling are the women who believe this crap–think Karen Santorum!!
Zmidponk:
That’s the sort of “relationship” which works for a whole lot of people. More people than it’s comfortable to think about. There are a lot of battered spouses out there (yes, it happens to men too) who are in this sort of relationship. In a lot of cases, it might not be physical abuse, but deep verbal and emotional abuse.
For many people, there’s no point in having a relationship at all if they can’t completely dominate and control. They get emotional satisfaction from the skewed power dynamic.
Comments? It was just one and he repeated it.
PZ, typo in the Dungeon. You called him “Whatling”. Lint is about right, it was the weight of his words.
FTFY. Some of us just enjoy playing cops and robbers with our pants off. :D
You know…
There’s potentially a need for “manhood training” in the world today. Young men need to be raised differently than young women, that’s sort of a fact. If you accept the general idea of feminism (which I do) then you need to raise your boy kids not to exploit their privilege. You unfortunately need to raise your girl kids to live in a world where they are second-class citizens in many ways. It sucks, and in an ideal world we could raise children the same, but we deal with the world as it is, not as we would like it to be.
If you go to the website of “Manhood Academy” they link you right to an ebook that starts with attacking feminism. Seems to me that if they had anything positive to tell a man-in-training, it would be based in positive principles rather than tearing down women. I don’t feel like I need to dig much further than that.
Stupidly, I dug deeper. Apparently, “manhood” is defined solely by “tricking women into having sex with you.”…
Sweet Satan, these people are nasty.
Cyrano:
Yep, I know. I didn’t go that extra bit of clarification though, and I should have. Abuse is a hallmark of the particular skewed power dynamic those particular menz are advocating, whereas I’ve found that’s not a component in healthy play.
Ohhh, I missed the fun :(
A.R.
Always remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Trivial ones, not so much. And as a regular here you should know that sadly, yes, misogyny, racism and homophobia are all too common.
+++++
Don’t forget that mosz abusers don’t start out like this. They’Re often perfect Prince Charming *puke* at the start, the kind of guy girls are taught to wait for all their lives.
And if people close to them see some warning signs, they’ll make sure those lines are cut off. Your girl-friend? She’s just jealous! Your guy friend? That guy is hitting on you because you’re obviously a queen, the top prize and I’ll knock out his teeth if he tries it again! Your family? They don’t want you to be happy!
And they’ll show their true colours once you’re alone and isolated.
Improbably Joe @#146
But is this even possible? As I have read here at FtB, privilege is something that happens to people whether they want it or not. As an example, a man is offered a promotion over a woman he thinks is more qualified than himself, is he to refuse the promotion and try to persuade management to offer it to the woman, so as not to exploit his privilege?
I also agree with the general idea of feminism, but it might be more realistic to raise boys not to perpetuate the privilege themselves, to break the cycle. That is something definitely achievable. Coming back to my example, the man might take the promotion but vow that he himself will not privilege men over women.
Aww, I missed the whole thing.
As girls and boys are being raise differently already, raising the differently is possible.
As to privilege, you can’t raise them without privilege, you can make them aware of it. And that often makes all the difference.
Many good men (yes, I know that’s a shitty term, but you know what I mean, men who are not consciously assholes) are just shit unaware of how different this world is for women.
That’s the thing about privilege: you take your experience for the default. If somebody’s experience is different, it must be due to something else.
That works with all kinds of privilege.
Try this: next time you see somebody of a racial minority being stopped by the police and nobody else, point this out and watch how people who are not consciously racist come up with rationalisations why this is not racist
First, this quote essentially makes the same claim that you were criticizing Improbable Joe for asserting. You just changed the wording from “attempt to raise boys that do not to exploit their privilege” to “raise boys that do not perpetuate their privilege“.
Second, I do not like your sentence structure. “I agree with feminism, but…”. What part of your “more realistic” method of raising children with an awareness of privilege makes you disagree with feminism?
so what you’re saying is that you don’t know the difference between the words “have” and “exploit”. ok then.
are you illiterate? That’s what the poster you quoted said!
Self help and “Men’s” self help in particular is a pretty interesting sort of woo ain’t it?
The part that really intrigues me about the Game and all that other stuff is there’s this underlying assumption that women are unaware and essentially passive targets in all this. The advice assumes they are this unaware and static system. That might be the most tacitly insulting aspect, but also paints the proponents as fucking idiots so it kind of balances out. The cognisant men see themselves almost like a Star Trek away team in disguise, moving among these unaware simpletons called women (and hopefully manipulating them into screwing said away team).
I don’t think it even occurred to them that women, who are even partaking in these games, are aware of what’s going on, have heard about all these methods and what they’re supposed to achieve and are adjusting and manipulating right back. They take it as a coded language almost like spy passphrases.
This doesn’t seem to have occurred to a lot of these guys, who appear under the impression they have the words and heavy eye contact to reach into womens’ brains and play their glands like a harp. I think if they did notice somehow that this wasn’t a top down process, but a totally dynamic one, they might just freeze up and die. (of course the system has that covered too. When in doubt break off and search for someone dumber, that way no true interpersonal communication or self awareness is necessary)
Jesus Babiroussa Christ, the assholes have truly outdone themselves this time! I wish I could believe it was all a parody, but sadly I can’t.
Yep, pretty much the first thing that popped into my head after reading this.
Muz, they don’t seen to think women are self-aware at all. It’s like we’re videogame characters. Get the right script and you win.
Alethea, #157,
Waaaaaaaaait a second there, missy. You mean all that time spent learning combo moves on a Leisure Suit Larry/Mortal Kombat* mashup for the PS3 wasn’t worth it?
But my L1-cross-cross-circle-square-R2-R2-triangle-cross combo was a guaranteed orgasm-fatality every time dammit. I’m off to sulk.
Louis
* I envisage this to be the gamer equivalent of the PUA training module. I’m working on a feminist game mashup, the first half of which is Manhunter…wait…have I given away too much already?
My first thought was that he could change “woman” to “child” and he’d have a whole new market with the catholics.
They have thought about that (the PUAs), but they think that they’re so rare and special and that non-PUAs are so common and hopelessly bad that it doesn’t matter. They basically think that although women may be aware of their tactics to some extent, women would still rather sleep with them than with a non-PUA.
These woo things always have a FAQ with ad-hoc answers to questions like yours. It’s not that easy to come up with a question that a true believer can’t answer.
I’d ask for statistics. PUA is a science, right? Lol.
Sorry about the blockquote fail earlier.
Wow, that was unexpected…
Supernova, my point was that we can’t simply pretend that problems don’t exist because they don’t exist for us. And we can’t single-handedly change the world by refusing to engage with it.
One of the places I have conversation about privilege is in the area of race, especially because I’m a light-skinned Hispanic and I’ve experienced some of that awesome white privilege when people don’t know my last name and/or assume I’m Italian. When dealing with white folks who resist dealing with racism, I get a lot of pushback about “it’s not my fault” as though we’re assigning blame. I try to explain that it isn’t about assigning blame as much as it is about taking responsibility. You’re not to blame for your privilege, but you have a responsibility not to encourage, perpetuate, or take knowing advantage of that privilege.
Enough of that derail, sorry.
The chew toys wear out so quickly these days! I didn’t even get a bite. *sob*
But who comes to the defence of something so awful as that ‘book’? MRA must have had some vested interest. Poor thing, it’s all disgusting and misogynist.
Men like these are threatened by (normal) women, and their worldview is threatened by men who can treat women as their fellow human beings and not pets.
Aw shucks – I had thought we were going to receive an introduction to the study of Professor Singham.
Ah, that explains my utter confusion at what on earth was all the reply to a non-existence Whatlint was about.
Is there a way for you to delete post while leaving a tag of some sort (like a grayed out name with no content)? That way late-comer can at least make some sense of all the reply to non-existence individual.
FilthyHuman, PZ rarely deletes all of person’s comments. Basically, all of Whatlint’s posts consisted of “dumb cunts!!1 LOL!!1!”.
Seems like these guys need to stop wasting time trying to learn this stuff and just save up for Realdolls.
Alison:
I had the same thought. I guess they wouldn’t get that same Hah! I’m crushing you! sensation though.
Wow, did my ex write this book?
@Caine
#166
It was that bad? Damn, missed the circus.
#168
Um… advent in artificial intelligence and robotics may allow you to one day get there. And to be honest, even right now it is not exceedingly difficult to have a computer play-back a standard reply given the right prompt…
…
…
Yep, play-back standard reply given the right prompt…
…
Let’s see, pressure sensor in a doll can differentiate between a punishment and reward (sharp/high frequency pressure change versus low freq pressure change), which can be a form of feed-back response to a learning algorithm on speech response pattern.
The ALICE bot can be used as a base template. At the very rudimentary, the system can be a simple “Receive, Response, Re-evaluate”, with a time-out that reset the state. So it will receive an initial verbal prompt, and based on pattern matching, deliver a response. And based on the “evaluation” given by the prompter (whether it is by processing a subsequent, immediate, verbal prompt on whether its positive or negative, or use the aformentioned pressure sensor). Even better, the dolls can communicate through online-interface and collate data points to ensure the best response to almost any prompt.
Outside of textual pattern matching, FFTing the verbal prompt (frequency of the prompt) and FFTing the volume of a prompt (rate of change in volume of a prompt) can also help determine the positivity of an “evaluation”.
On one hand, perfect punching bags for ass-hole, therefore, probably, less incentives to actually try that on woman.
On the other hand… maybe it will train them to be better assholes?
Giliell, not to be confused with The Borg
I just want to say this is really true and happened to me. It’s so easy to think that no women would put up with these men, but this kind of manipulation from these psychopathic assholes sometimes works and it’s awful. Certainly in my case, I spent most of that relationship ignoring these red flags because I was so certain that I was the kind of person that wouldn’t put up with that bullshit and an abusive relationship would never happen to me.
These people are so, so dangerous to vulnerable women.
A wide swath of the BDSM community certainly wants that. However the majority of them are looking for partners who want to be submissive (the minority of course are the predators which exist everywhere). I’ve never understood it honestly. I enjoy playing with power dynamics in short scenes but I’ve never seen the appeal in 24/7 power exchange relationships despite knowing people in very successful ones.
FilthyHuman:
Ya know, I’d love to believe that such an advance would make all these menz stay at home with their dolls, but that’s not what they’re about. They are all about predation and that’s just not “fun” with a decoy, so to speak.
Feats of cats
I’m sorry it happened to you.
Luckily, i was only the “jealous best friend” who had to witness this “game”
No, it’s a result of you being stupid and amoral enough to automatically give bad people the benefit of the doubt, whether or not any doubt exists, and subject people trying to push for a positive change to a burden of proof that basically translates to “beyond an UNreasonable doubt.”
Why the fuckity fucking fuck do you reflexively side with the assholes?
Feats of Cats – thank you.
Most people believe that it could never happen to them or that women who were abused as kids are usually the ones that end up in relationships like this. Speaking for my (small) portion of the abused as kids crowd, stress and resiliance are a lot more complicated than that. Some of us are pretty careful not to pick SOs who are anything like our abusive parent (my mother can, and once did, kill a relationship by saying “he reminds me of your father.” In retrospect, she was totally right).
Giliell was right on target; they isolate you first. Most people don’t notice it is happening. When you have no close friends and have been cut off from relatives, who do you go to for help? Protecting you from your (potentially) homocidal SO is a little more than most friends and family know how to handle.
Or the genuinely socially inept. :/
Doesn’t starting with the attitude that young men need to be raised differently than young women have a lot to do with perpetuating that?
…Decoys, huh?
…It might work if the predators don’t know those are decoys. So, we just need to make sufficiently
realisticscript-istic drone dolls that they can be sent into bars, philosophy departments, and skeptic conferences, and sequester most of the douchebags onto themselves so that everyone else can enjoy their lives.…I might live in that world, sure.
But the dolls won’t suffer, therefore it just won’t be the same.
Pteryxx: Kind of like reverse magnetic bead seperation
Pteryxx:
I might like to live in that world too, barring a world where menz stop being menz and are happy being men.
psocoptera
Exactly! I had pretty much the happiest childhood ever and a couple relationships under my belt with good guys, and was absolutely not prepared to see myself in the role of the victim. It took me almost two years after I escaped the relationship to even really admit to myself that it had been abusive (it was psychological abuse, and since he never hit me…), and am even still reading accounts of other people who have been in similar situations and recognizing tactics he had used on me.
This stuff is not intuitive and isolation combined with your abuser making you believe you deserve whatever he feels like dishing out make for the kind of woman these asshats claim to want. Completely submissive to their will.
Victim grooming, indeed.
I would guess these Manhood Academy idiiots are just as likely to have had sex as not. However they no doubt found that the women they were with had actual ideas about what they wanted in a relationship, how they should be treated etc. and didn’t simply do whatever the losers wanted without complaint or question. LIke other abusive types they can’t understand that other people in their lives aren’t mere extensions of themselves and are independant actors in their own right
Azkyroth
Yes and no.
If we were already living in a post-patriarchy, post gender world, it would be true. But since we’re living in this shitty place, we need to actively counter it.
You know yourself that you’re not the only one raising your kid. Society does so as well, so as parents we need to double our efforts to counter that shit.
Young men are getting the shitty information about how to treat women, that no means yes and all that bullshit anyway, so parents need to work against that if they don’t want to be complicent by just letting it slide.
Girls get the bullshit about being pretty, passive, fought-for princesses and I’m fighting that with claws teeth and fire.
In a non-domineering way, of course.
I guess I see that as more like “titrating” than “differentiating.”
Giliell:
As an aside, ThinkGeek has cute Tees with Self Rescuing Princess on them.
Caine
Been there, done that
Giliell, ah, very pretty. Good – that’s one message that needs to be hammered home, all the damn time.
BUT THAT’S NOT WHAT I SAID
I took the post as an endorsement of gender-typing and gender-roles in principle, just in a “benevolent” fashion. If that’s not what you meant and you’re merely discussing active efforts to counteract sexism from society, then my objections are tangential.
…it’s been like 7 years. How fucking long do I have to keep commenting here before I get some of this “benefit of the doubt” stuff passed around to me?
Backwards blockquote… woe is me.
I’m sorry, but I can’t see or hear Nancy Grace or Gretchen Carlson without thinking, “What a slattern cunt!” And for many Brits, Margaret Thatcher will always be “That*__ Cunt.”
It is not a word I would ever use lightly, being one of the last truly taboo words, but there are situations where it is the most appropriate epithet. I will certainly continue to use it where necessary.
*(asstd. expletives used as adjectives)
Oh well aren’t you a manly man jaycubed
jaycubed, just don’t be surprised when people figure you’re a misogynist.
jaycubed:
Bully for you. Use it anywhere you like except here. By the way, you might want to visit the You might be a Cupcake if… list. You’re on it:
#your excuse for using the word “cunt” is that you’re English and it’s vernacular, doncha know.
#you use the word “cunt” as an insult.
jaycubed:
Bully for you. Use it anywhere you like except here. By the way, you might want to visit the You might be a Cupcake if… list at the Pharyngula Wiki*. You’re on it:
#your excuse for using the word “cunt” is that you’re English and it’s vernacular, doncha know.
#you use the word “cunt” as an insult.
*The link wasn’t allowed!
I think Ms. Daisy Cutter’s linkage success was a fluke; it’s still in the spam blacklist but the spam filter malfunctioned for her.
I am soooo glad I’m too old and too married to go out and deal with men like the ones this book is for. I feel stabby just reading the excerpts.
Carolw:
I share the feeling.
I’m old and long married m’self, however, a lot of my friends are young, they’re single, other friends aren’t so young but single…then there are others to think about – daughters of friends, nieces, your own daughter[s] (if you have them, I don’t have kids), and so on. It hardly bears thinking about, but we have to fight the good fight.
Since you are attempting to make a word blasphemous on Pharyngula I have to respond. Sorry it took overnight but I did some research (& I use a neighbor’s computer for online access). I asked a sample (17) of my friends (approx. 60% “straight” women, 15% “lesbian” women and 25% “gay” men – no “straight” male would respond) the question, do you, and if so how do you use the word “cunt”. All admitted to using the word, if not overtly then covertly to describe other women and gay men. The situations, both interpersonal & work-related, were similar in all usages. The personalities described show marked similarities.
The OED shows only 2 definitions for “cunt”; the first crudely referring to the female sexual organs, second the vile insult meaning equating the worth of a woman as being only in her use as a sexual repository: and it is obvious that neither meaning is the primary meaning used in contemporary society. Several of the women and the gay men reported/observed regularly using the word in sex play (meaning 1). Several (sheepishly) reported using the word as a vile insult to other women or gay men (meaning 2).
But that doesn’t capture anything about how the word is commonly used in contemporary speech, when women and gay men regularly use the word in the same fashion to describe the same types of personalities.
My composite of the respondents answers to my questions about “what makes a person a ‘cunt’?”:
1) They are power driven/self-promoting. (I was surprised that this was the instant response of a majority)
2) They use sexuality/gender expectations in a hypocritical fashion to attain #1. (“deny but use” “deny to others what they do”) – (my initial response)
3) They are spiteful & vengeful.
4) They are contemptuous, arrogant, moralizing, patronizing.
5) They are closed minded and “always right”.
–
As for my previous comment regarding Margaret Thatcher I received feedback, some loud, that I should have said “millions of Brits” instead of thousands.
–
As for my previous comments regarding Nancy Grace & Gretchen Carlson, let me say that if you do not consider them both “slattern cunts” then, knowing nothing else about you, I have have to question your ethical standards, your intelligence and your “feminist” credentials regardless of your gender.
–
What this “misogynist” has been doing for the past several days.
For those who have been (offering suggestions &) following my anti-anti-Planned Parenthood protest against the “40 Day” Catholic “picketeers” at my next door PP office, I have almost “miraculous” news. They weren’t there this morning. One can only hope that they were so embarrassed by my counter-protest that they gave up. I will continue to check to see if they sneak back. If they do this “misogynist” will be back, actively protecting a person’s right to sexual & reproductive health care by confronting & disrupting the activities of self-righteous religious thugs.
(While I do have pictures with the sign, with them gone today I’m afraid there’s no pics of confrontation. Sorry, I’m such a Luddite I only have a cell phone that makes phone calls & not photos. I also still have to figure out where/how to post them online. Will report back, especially if 40 Day thugs return.)
Knew it was to good to be true. They just creeped out of somewhere with their signs. Off to annoy!
….
You literally did all this work, extended all this effort to someone asking you “please don’t do that it bothers people here”?
It was THAT important to say “HEY FUCK YOU I DO WHAT I WANT!”
What would happen if someone asked you not to fart in an elevator? Would you drop trow, spread your cheeks and shove them in that person’s face?
How the fuck at all is that less effort than just saying “ok”
Needlessly antagonizing someone who makes a polite request isn’t standing up for values or liberties, it’s just being a petty childish asshole.
Fuck you, asshole. We’re not okay with you using words that do harm to innocent people. “Harmful” is not the same as “blasphemous.” I don’t give a fraction of a fuck about your I Help Women cred; if you’re using my fucking genitalia as an insult, you’re no fucking ally and damn right I’ll call you a misogynist. And if you persist in doing it when people have asked you to quit, I’ll call you a fucking creep too.
This is really simple, jaycubed. You will stop calling people “cunts” or you will be banned. And really, I don’t give a good goddamned flying fuck what efforts you go through to rationalize it — that you feel it necessary to make excuses for it is enough to tell me you know it’s demeaning.
That’s right, cunts: Jaycubed is out there fighting for your rights so best shut your mouths and thank him for his service. Maybe give him a medal. So what if he wants to use words that contribute to misogyny and devalue you as a person? Dictionary + Some of my Best Friends is a Woman, so there.
Remember, the most important right is that of a hetero and/or white and/or man (ideally, all three) to use whatever words he wants, whenever he wants.
Jaycubed, I’m sorry some uppity bitches dared accuse you of using “misogynist” terms. That’s clearly the worst thing that can ever possibly happen, and it shouldn’t have happened to someone like you who’s out there fighting for their rights. Honestly, you should be immortalised in gold, not criticised for callin’ it like you see it.
Some people are just ungrateful, eh?
It’s good that you’re counterprotesting for Planned Parenthood, jaycubed. That’s a positive thing.
It’s bad that you are also promoting misogyny here, by calling women cunts and insisting that everyone else should also call women cunts. It’s no improvement that you’re extending some of this misogyny to gay men as well; we’re not infrequently targeted with misogyny — probably the vast majority of homophobia against gay men is misogyny directed against men for not performing our prescribed gender roles.
That you bring this up suggests you really don’t understand the objection at all.
What people say to each other during sex play is not at issue here. They can play however they like.
The objection is against the public use of “cunt” as an insult. Surely you are not so stupid as to misapprehend this?
@Jaycubed
note i have no way of knowing whether you have been helping PP or not. I don’t see that…I can’t verify that. All I can go on is what you do here and what side of you you show here. IMO bringing up PP and all that is just asking me to doubt evidence presented because you’re allegedly awesome so shuddup
I see word troll is idiotically word trolling. You have been asked politely to cease and desist word troll. Now, do you cease and desist, rationally and nicely, or do we have to make another an example of your egotism and fuckwittery? No one on your side has won, nor will win, that battle, as it isn’t rational on your part. It is all ego on your part. Rational is you realiziing that word isn’t used here and accepting that.
Well, it wasn’t that much work.
Jaycubed obviously borrowed Paula Smith’s dictionary after she was done using it to defend her use of ‘nig’ to mean “It means a low down, lazy, sorry, low down person”.
Azkyroth, #195: Joe “raised his voice” at you a few times and called your comment stupid. He didn’t call you stupid, or racist, or anything else derogatory. What’s more, while I know he’s been around FTB for a while, I have no idea how familiar he is with your commenting history. And everybody else was perfectly pleasant and explanatory to you.
This “misogynist” is in tears. The ladies at the Planned Parenthood office just came out & gave me a bouquet of daffodils for being “our counter-protester”. Had to come in & pin one on my hat & put the rest in water, so I checked in here.
So we have finally found something Blasphemous to the Pharyngula community. How sad. How hypocritical.
Well, back to the real world & annoying the 40day crew.
jaycubed, that right there ought to tip you off that there’s something wrong with this insult.
It ends up being used to punish women as bad women, and gay men as bad gay men, rather than generally punishing people as bad people.
If a straight man acts badly, he’s more likely to be judged as a bad person. His gender and sexual orientation are less likely to be the targets of attack. IIRC, vernacular English don’t even have any insults that draw attention to straight men being straight men.
But if a woman acts badly, she’s subject to being called a “bitch” or a “cunt”, which reminds her that she’s not just expected to be a good person, she’s expected to be a “good woman” and will be punished for defying gender roles.
This is not how you ought to want to treat people. It’s not right to punish someone for being a “bad woman” rather than a “bad person”.
Remember that you’re not just affecting that one person who’s the target of insult. You’re also informing all women bystanders that if they act in such a way that you disapprove of, they won’t be afforded the fairness of being called bad people; they’ll be considered bad women.
Also, look at this:
This is not inherently objectionable behavior. For average people in many professions, this is what’s necessary to pay the heating bill and keep food on the table. And since it’s typically prescribed behavior for straight men, it’s not something for which they’ll be targeted for insult, let alone gendered insult.
+++++
As long as you are insisting that women should be targeted with gendered insults, you are broadcasting loud and clear that you cannot be trusted as an ally of women.
I hope you’ll find that undesirable; since you appear to care about women’s reproductive rights, you’d probably like to be understood as generally in favor of treating women like normal human beings.
But you’re communicating that at least in this one way, women and gay men are subnormal to you, not quite worthy of being insulted qua people.
See above:
«We’re not okay with you using words that do harm to innocent people. “Harmful” is not the same as “blasphemous.”»
It is said that blasphemy is victimless.
Gendered insults are not victimless. Do you also consider Nancy Grace, Gretchen Carlson and Margaret Thatcher to be “bitches”? Or do you understand that that term does collateral damage to all women, by proscribing certain behavior as unbecoming of women qua women?
Why do you want words which communicate that “part of what’s wrong with her is to do with being a woman”?
And after that, did they offer to fly you on their fairness-powered spaceship to the planet Gynia to rule over them all with wisdom and courage?
Sorry, bub: there’s a line for assholes crying crocodile tears over the fascist theocracy this place always was. Your ‘finally’ is about a half decade too late. Where’ve you been? Oh, that’s right; fighting for the rights of ungrateful broads.
Chas’ll see that you’re fitted for a “I’m such a rebel it’s metal” jacket though.
Huh! It’s almost like he didn’t read any of the responses at all! Perhaps we should bring him some daffodils or maybe a fucking cookie and then he’ll listen to what we have to say. Well, you know, half-listen, probably, until he figures out we’re not praising him for his heroic and gallant protection of women. Anybody have any suitable flowers for the shitbegonia?
Ah wait I have my script.
blah blah blah blah blah “if they say” blah blah blah go back to page 3
Ok here we go
“note I have no way of knowing whether you have been helping PP or not. I don’t see that…I can’t verify that. All I can go on is what you do here and what side of you you show here. IMO bringing up PP and all that is just asking me to doubt evidence presented because you’re allegedly awesome so shuddup”
Not today, but yesterday I had some rotting mums that could have used a home for the aroma impaired.
Jaycubed, I hope that you stood up for your principles and let the women from Planned Parenthood know that you were happy to make the protests more difficult for the cunts and if more cunts gives them problems, they should call again.
Or do you think that you might reveal just a little bit too much to those people that you just white knighted?
But of course.
Shorter Jaycubed: “Do you KNOW who I AM?!”
Jaycubed,
Please allow me to try to explain. What follows may contain humour you have been warned.
I like the word “cunt”. It’s a great word. It sounds nice and refers to one aspect of women I am a big fan of. By no means the only aspect, but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t like the ones I’ve encountered. Hell, even knowing what I know, I still use the word (I am British, it really is hard to remove from one’s vocabulary absolutely. Especially when you are a volcanic swearer like I am). Admittedly that use is now extremely rare and accidental. I am like an ex-smoker, I’ve quit for all the right reasons but occasionally I will have just one cigarette. Except in the case of “cunt”, it’s like I fall onto the cigarette and smoke it by accident instead of actually buy a pack. If you see what I mean.
I got into an argument here at this very blog a few years ago about the word “cunt”, not for precisely the same reasons you have, but mainly because I am nit-picking pedantic bastard and I thought Someone Was Wrong On The Internet. Someone was. That someone was me unfortunately. The claim I took issue with was that using the word “cunt” as an insult is necessarily misogynist. I said that for a variety of reasons this wasn’t the case. Now I was wrong, even though something like this to a degree applies. Think of it like this; where I was wrong was in claiming (as I did) that there was a “misogyny free cunt” and a spectrum of misogyny all the way over to a proper good old fashioned misogynistic one. I was wrong. There is no “misogyny free cunt” as an insult.
Why the background? Well I sympathise, I really do, but take a deep breath, think, consider, you could be (and are) wrong here. As was I. I pointed out the above for another reason, what follows is not coming from some more moral person, some sanctimonious holier than thou paragon of perfection. It’s coming from a (deeply) flawed and imperfect human being, no better or worse than you in ethical terms, or anyone else for that matter. I am a hypocrite and a fuck up. I get things wrong and more than once fail to do as I say. Got it? Ready?
“Cunt” refers to women’s genitals. That is its origin, its etymology, its root. Go and hunt down the etymology from an older indoeuropean language (“gan” meaning cavity, if memory serves), it’s out there. It unambiguously refers to a woman’s genitals, just as does vulva or pussy or any other similar word. Whether or not “cunt” also is defined in the dictionary as “undesirable person” (or whatever) the reason it has evolved that use is because the comparison of a person to a woman’s genitals is (and was) considered insulting.
Before you go “aha but what about ‘prick’, that must be misandrist”, well it is, and for the exact same reasons that “cunt” is misogynist. The cultural context is not identical, as I’ll come to in a bit, but the equivalent arguments work for any insult which compares/reduces a person to their genitals. There is a degree of parity here, not all across the board, but in this specific manner.
Think about how this word has evolved in use. “You are a cunt” clearly evolved from the comparison of a person who has been/done something undesirable to a woman’s genitals to simply skip the middle man and mean “an undesirable person”. So the word has evolved to have these dual meanings. This mistake you are making, and I made, and oh boy did I make it, is that because these definitions are written on separate lines in a dictionary, that they can be used separately with no reference to each other. Now for some words that is the case, take “right” as in the “right to do something” and “right” as in “turn right”. “Cunt” is not one of those words. And it also has plenty of alternatives.
Particularly in the USA the word “cunt” is used to demean women. Women are vastly more likely to be referred to as “cunts” than are men. It’s not universally the case but a straw poll will reveal it pretty quickly. The reverse is true in the UK/Oz. “Cunt” is used very much more towards the “undesirable person” end of the spectrum, it’s used at men as much, if not more than women and use in a manner that is a merely a stronger version of “prick” (or something). This usage, however, is not separate from the other meaning. Why is a sexual swearword, a referent to a body part, especially a female body part, used to indicate undesirability or foolishness? Think about that.
The insult might be written down in a dictionary as “undesirable person” (or some such) but a fuller, historically aware, definition would flesh that meaning out to read “undesirable person by virtue of comparison to the sexual organs of a woman”. Remember, the societies in which these words evolved have a variety of sexual taboos, so sexual swearwords (fuck et al.) are our worst words because they refer to sex. “Cunt” has the added bonus of being sex related and woman related. Want to know the (average) position of women in societies then and now?
Which brings me neatly to context. Words, like people, don’t exist in a vacuum, stripped of cultural context. You could be, like I was, using the word “cunt” lacking any misogynist intent whatsoever. The verbal context in which you use it could be innocent, but that’s not the only context you have to take into account. You, as someone who works with PP, should know that women are taking a legal, metaphorical and tragically literal beating all up and down the USA (and elsewhere). Their rights are trampled on and casual sexism of the worst kind proliferates. You only have to look at the works of the extremists, the PUAs and the MRAs, to know that women are considered as second class humans by more than a minority of people. There is literally tonnes of evidence here from “oh girls don’t maths” and “nice girls don’t have sex like sluts” all the way up to “bitch obey your man” and “Cut your ex girlfriend’s face to make her unattractive to other men” (and that last one came from a UK magazine “advice column” by Danny Dyer, and actor. Oh yes, misogyny chaps, it’s what’s for breakfast). Comparisons to women as a negative thing abound. “You’re running like a girl” “man up” “get some balls” “don’t be a pussy” and so on and so forth. The CULTURAL context is overwhelmingly negative towards women. The reason “cunt” is such a great insult is because it references the feminine, the reviled, patronised, lesser female.
Whatever verbal context you put that word in, you are going to be overwhelmed by the cultural context. You can (to some extent free will fans) control what goes on in your head, but you cannot control what other people read/hear. And people are going to pick up that context. The word is loaded, its power derives in part from its history and its connotations in current culture. Take the word “nigger” as another example, a more serious, less ambiguous example. That word cannot be used absent its cultural and historical context. Even the rap artists who use it use it specifically because of its shock value. Their “reclamation” of the word is a nod to the history and culture in an attempt to change that culture.
Is this making sense to you?
By using the word “cunt” as an insult, you are implicitly referencing that cultural context, that history, whether you like it or not. It’s not up to you whether or not you do that when you use that word, simply using it does that for you. THAT is why we should not use it. We’re trying to combat anti-woman ideas in the world, so don’t reference positively them as a matter of habit.
Now, to one last insinuation of yours about PP and your excellent and laudable volunteer work. I too do voluntary work, doesn’t mean I can’t be an arse. Doesn’t mean I lack prejudice or the ability to be sexist, racist, or homophobic. I try to lack those things, and that’s the best I or anyone can do. In addition to that, compared to doing voluntary work at PP, complaining about a word and not using it is small beer. No one claims differently. But the point is that on a thread of comments and words on the internet, we cannot pick up a placard and help at PP. We cannot go into a shelter and comfort battered women. We have to go out into the real world to do that, and like you, some of us do. We can check our language and check how we deal with others. We will fuck up. *I* fuck up. But the best that can be expected is when we fuck we notice and apologise and try not to repeat it.
Sorry for length!
Louis
Oh, there’s hypocrisy alright…on your part, jaycubed. Now listen up, dear. The Estrogen Empire is taking over. We all live in Femmerica now. Use of gendered slurs and insults are no longer allowed as they are harmful. You may, of course, be as profane and blasphemous as you like, that’s never been a problem. Ta.
Had to pop in and read jaycubed’s little fantasy story again. I think I’ve finally found a contender for the spot of “Dumbest Fucking Thing Ever Written With an Intent to Persuade Someone Older Than Nine”, currently held by Eric Hoag’s “I want to be the fluke. You can all be the statistic”. What are the chances that jaycubed’s girlfriend also happens to be a model who lives in Canada but you can’t Google her because they have no internet up there?
“I just came in to put the flowers I got for being so awesome to women and stopped to check the internet, so there.” You’ve. Got. To. Be. Fucking. Kidding. Me.
What a fucking ludicrous dumbass. If the asshole has any ounce of integrity whatsoever, he’ll never show his dumb face here again out of shame.
Brownian,
You mean I made that rant for nothing? DAMMIT! I hate missing the mark with a good splenetic vent.
What a waste of good splenetic juices! I must save them, nurture them, my hate makes me powerful, yes……yesssssss, feel the hate make me stronger, give in to the Dark Side…
MWAH HA! MWAH HA HA HA HAAAAAAAAAA!*
Louis
*Oh fuck I’ve gone. It was watching Peter Hitchens and Jesus Camp in one night last night. It has borked me.
[meta]
I see Jaycubed imagines mores are sacred, so that their breach becomes blasphemy.
(Such a religious mindset!)
Who cares who you think you are? You are a fuckwitted idjit if you think we care about that, compared to your egregious fuckwittery in trying to pretend certain words can be used here against the wishes of a large portion of the commitariate.
Just finished with the 40 dayers.
The usual personal attacks I see.
Perhaps someday you too will have friends of 12-40 years duration who also suffer from parrhesia and the willingness to be asked unpleasant personal questions and respond truthfully.
Since these are typical of such general attacks made on the veracity of the author of any online communication, if you wish I will e-mail PZ with the address or phone# of my local P.P. office to confirm my “fantasy story”. Closed for today, but I am promised that the anti-P.P.ers are bringing their children tomorrow. I’ll be there if they are.
I’ve sacrificed 2 of my 4 days (& counting) to shame & annoy religious bigots while protecting women’s access to health care.
What have you been up to?
–
Further news for those interested: the 40 dayers started intentionally annoying me by loudly chanting & beading, so I started singing, loudly. Started out with Judi Bari’s “Will The Fetus Be Aborted”; sang a few Ass Ponys songs, including “Julia Pastrana” (A song about a women who dies in childbirth)[twice], “Last Night It Snowed”, “Kung Fu Reference” [missed one verse], “Not Since Superman Died” and “Calendar Days” [twice]; “Let’s Go Burn Ol’ Nashville Down”; Camper Van B’s “Take The Skinheads Bowling” [4 times] & “Seven Languages”: and a Frank Zappa medley of “Love Of My Life”/”Go Cry On Somebody Else’s Shoulder as well as a half dozen instances of “What’s The Ugliest Part Of Your Body”.
I also note a near total lack of joy observable in the 40 dayers during their demonstrations. I had so much fun and they were so dour. The kids are sure to be more fun tomorrow.
everybody: “Here are a bunch of reasons why you shouldn’t use ‘cunt’ as an insult.”
jaycubed: “But I counterprotest for Planned Parenthood!”
everybody: “That’s nice, it really is, and some of us even believe you; pitbull believes you. But in addition to that, here are a bunch of reasons why you shouldn’t use ‘cunt’ as an insult.”
jaycubed: “𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖉𝖆𝖒𝖓𝖎𝖙, 𝕴 𝖈𝖔𝖚𝖓𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖕𝖗𝖔𝖙𝖊𝖘𝖙 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝕻𝖑𝖆𝖓𝖓𝖊𝖉 𝕻𝖆𝖗𝖊𝖓𝖙𝖍𝖔𝖔𝖉! 𝕯𝖔𝖓’𝖙 𝖞𝖔𝖚 𝖚𝖓𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖙?”
[meta]
jaycubed:
You’re accustomed to such responses?
Well, duh.
(Stop inviting such retorts, and perhaps it might change)
Your modesty becomes you.
Sorry, can’t brag about my bragging.
(OH NOES! You’ve outbragged me!)
—
PS any response to janine @223?
Jaycubed,
Thanks for bothering to notice and engage my #226. No insults, no rudeness, just an attempt, perhaps a little over long (a little? ;-) ), and rather than focus on something like that you focus on the insults. Coupled to a classic piece of humblebragging about your volunteer work. Nice!
Is that the act of an honest interlocutor?
Louis
Yesterday, I received a lovely thank you letter from Planned Parenthood about my recent donations along with a very nice sticker for my vehicle window and more info on the Pink Bus Tour. I will, of course, be donating more money, which I’ve been doing on a regular basis for about 37 years.
So, I can totes demean women now, right?
jcubed,
Maybe this will help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0R3OjMcOqg
There are some words that cannot be redeemed because of how they have been used previously.
Not only can you demean women, Caine, your feminist cred will be revoked if you don’t.
life is like a pitbull:
Oh! Well no one told me that. It’s hard work, keeping my FemCred™ up-to-date.
Only real feminists call women cunts.
Why, I seem to have discovered a bumper sticker for the new millennium!
Louis
Louis:
Apple ologies for striking a sour note, but I have no doubt that if you had those printed up, you could make a nice pile of cash selling to the menz brigade.
You did not answer my question, will you call the anti-choice women “cunt” in front of those you are helping.
Simple question.
Persisting in using gendered insults in this community, after you have been asked to desist, is far closer to a personal attack than anything that has been tossed your way.
How incredibly noble and condescending you are.
Caine,
{Sigh}
Curse these ethics of mine!
I don’t work for the weapons manufacturers, although I’d have a job for life. I don’t make pseudoscientific scam meds, although homeopaths don’t seem to be poor, and I’m not going to pander to bigots.
It’s impossible for a guy to make a buck around here!
Louis
Janine,
Simple, but very, very good! I’d like an answer to that too.
Louis
Not that it matters, since it has fuck all to do with anything we’re talking about, but yeah, now that you bring it up, I want to see some fucking evidence.
Well, for starters, I’ve not been using women and their continuous struggle for reproductive freedom as a convenient excuse to righteously use demeaning language simply because I don’t like being asked not to.
In other words, acting like a man, or more specifically, not acting like a petulant child, jaycubed. Now, about your little anecdote, big, tough, defender of women: you’re going to provide proof, yes?
Janine:
I’d like an answer to this question also. Not a ‘dodging the issue’ answer, not a ‘I’ll go on and on with more excuses’ answer, not a ‘Me be noble feminist man’ answer, just a plain yes or no answer.
I’d add another question, though:
Would you use cunt in a friendly, joshing manner with the PP women? Because you’re the one who keeps claiming it’s harmless. So go ahead, jaycubed – next time you’re out and about saving all the women, let go with a jaunty “Oh, I’m happy to help you cunts!“
“2 of my 4 days”? wonder what’s that a reference to. context-free, it looks like it’s saying jaycubed is dying in a couple days (or being teleported back to the parallel dimension he came from, in which “cunt” is not a bigoted slur; the same one Paula Smith must have come from)
anyway. 2 days at PP, and the faux-righteous assumption that this is more than pharyngulites do. color me fucking amused.
Or perhaps: “You’re my kind of cunts! I love you cunts.”
Louis
Louis:
Yes. Are you paying attention, jaycubed? Go ahead, say this to the women you’re counter-protesting with, then report back as to their reactions. It will provide a right interesting data point, don’t you think?
PZ had you nailed (#209):
Oh, I’m sure they won’t mind. Would you begrudge your Saviour the use of whichever words He desires to use most?
Besides, what have they been up to?
Also mention if they dedicate a shrine to you, or maybe give you a pony.
[Tongue, meet cheek]
I’ve used the word “cunt” rather a lot in this thread. I’m getting bored. Can we move onto “twat” now? That word has a far more interesting uses in English at least. Some of it even vaguely positive.
Twat (vt): To hit very hard. E.g. “get out there and twat it”.
Twat (vi): To be extremely inebriated. E.g. “I was absolutely twatted last night”.
Twat (emph): Used in emphasis to denote size or extremity. “That Jaycubed is an absolute twatting fuckwit if he thinks that a spuriously claimed bit of volunteer work somehow means that he can use gendered sexual terms as insults without coming off as a sexist douchenugget”.
[Tongue says “Bye, Bye cheek”]
Louis
My guess is it’s the number of days he has off. I hope the PP people know what he’s sacrificing. Reproductive rights hardly seem worth it.
We should probably start looking at the summer calendar and pick a good weekend for his parade. How’s late June looking for everyone?
Brownian:
I’m absolutely positive that if jaycubed happily called them cunts, then explained just how mean and awful this group gone
wildpolitically correct has been to him over his right to use cunt, they’d nod their heads in sympathy and present him with a white pony with a glued on horn and sprinkled with pink glitter.Then they would apologize profusely for not being able to find a real unicorn or even better, a pegasus.
Brownian,
Those cunts? Probably nothing. Nothing as good as saving some cunts from being harassed by a group of people who probably contained some cunts.
Hey this is fun! It’s CuntFest 2012! Look, look! I’m a feminist!
I wonder how far this analogy extends? If I can call women cunts after two days of volunteer work, can I give them a slap after three? Hospitalise women after 5 days? Rape after a week and murder after a fortnight? What I want to know is can I be the next Ted Bundy if I do lots of volunteer work first? When do I get to be Rush Limbaugh? Or the bloke, and we alllllll know it was a bloke, who proposed the Magic 10 Inch Rape Wand Acts in various states for women seeking abortions?
Basically, what I want to know is how much good do I have to do before I can balance it out with some old fashioned fucking evil?
I mean, I’ve helped so many people. Isn’t it time they gave something back? Come on, let me hit just one woman with a frying pan. Just one. I’ll do double shifts in a rape crisis centre first, and no saying “cunt” for a week.
Louis
Hmm. Thought jaycubed might have popped in to tell us how the Syrians have been thanking him for his tireless efforts after work on Tuesdays and Wednesdays so he gets to say ‘towelhead’, but no soap.
No, but he recently helped a guy fix his motorcycle. And with that, his work for PP, and his longtime support of the gay community, he is allowed to go into a biker bar and yell “I think all you pussy bikers suck!”
“At its heart, feminism represents women’s desire to control men”
A pathetic lie. In truth, feminism represents women’s desire to control their own lives.
Ianm,
I always like the definition that someone (I forget who sadly) around here cottoned me onto:
Feminism: The radical idea that women are people.
Louis
Just popped in quickly & scanned through. No time to respond now. The 40 dayers showed up en masse (maybe 30-40) with kids singing earlier than usual: I’ve been out for an hour. At least there are other counter-protesters today, usual group chanting. Half completely confused by my message. Left them to carry on for lunch. Sadly most of the anti-PP kids were bundled off by their parents to avoid our contamination.
I’ll e-mail PZ with the address of the P.P. office. I will not post it publicly here for the safety of the workers. I have not coordinated with them in any way, either before protesting or at present, so I can’t guarantee they’ll answer questions. But I hope polite & supportive inquiries will elicit stories about “our counter-protester” & the past two days.
–
Since the vast majority of internet “identities” are substantially false, it is not a surprise that people automatically doubt what is said by others. PZ is, after all, the only one here with a confirmed public identity and with responsibility for what he writes. I am regularly perceived as a threat because my “stories” are real. My practice, which is the reason I interact online at Pharyngula and a select few other sites, is to practice crafting true stories and exchange ideas with others. Here is a chance for a responsible party, PZ, to confirm what I said online in these posts. The only reason it matters is that I have been repeatedly characterized as a liar and called a “misogynist”, a word which is certainly used in an insulting manner. It might be useful for people here to have their fantasies & bigotries exposed for what they are.
–
More to follow.
everybody: “Here are a bunch of reasons why you shouldn’t use ‘cunt’ as an insult.”
jaycubed: “But I counterprotest for Planned Parenthood!”
everybody: “That’s nice, it really is, and some of us even believe you; pitbull believes you. But in addition to that, here are a bunch of reasons why you shouldn’t use ‘cunt’ as an insult.”
jaycubed: “𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖉𝖆𝖒𝖓𝖎𝖙, 𝕴 𝖈𝖔𝖚𝖓𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖕𝖗𝖔𝖙𝖊𝖘𝖙 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝕻𝖑𝖆𝖓𝖓𝖊𝖉 𝕻𝖆𝖗𝖊𝖓𝖙𝖍𝖔𝖔𝖉! 𝕯𝖔𝖓’𝖙 𝖞𝖔𝖚 𝖚𝖓𝖉𝖊𝖗𝖘𝖙𝖆𝖓𝖉 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖙?”
everybody: “Yes, most people here accept that you do. But in addition to that, here are a bunch of reasons why you shouldn’t use ‘cunt’ as an insult.”
jaycubed: “I COUNTERPROTEST FOR PLANNED PARENTHOOD I COUNTERPROTEST FOR PLANNED PARENTHOOD I COUNTERPROTEST FOR PLANNED PARENTHOOD 𝕀 ℂ𝕆𝕌ℕ𝕋𝔼ℝℙℝ𝕆𝕋𝔼𝕊𝕋 𝔽𝕆ℝ ℙ𝕃𝔸ℕℕ𝔼𝔻 ℙ𝔸ℝ𝔼ℕ𝕋ℍ𝕆𝕆𝕆𝕆𝕆𝕆𝕆𝔻!”
With this action, you will have proved that you have the right to use the word “cunt”.
I am beginning to think that I do not want you as an ally.
Also, you can answer my question without e-mailing PZ.
Huh.
jaycubed: “Nancy Grace is a cunt! Gretchen Carlson is a dirty cunt! Margaret Thatcher is a fucking cunt! Cunt cunt cunt! And if you don’t agree, then you’re not a feminist, you cunts!”
everybody: “That sounds pretty misogynistic.”
jaycubed: “How dare you say that’s misogynistic! You’re all a bunch of bigots! I’m telling PZ!”
jaycubed, you fucking moron: even if you paid for every single abortion in the US out of pocket, “cunt” wouldn’t stop being a slur. that’s not how it works.
If jaycube can convince PZ that he has provided an authentic address of a real Planned Parenthood clinic, then I for onw will believe that he counterprotests there.
But I still won’t care.
My money sez PZ won’t either.
jaycubed, get with it man. This is the internet; it’s international. This blog here, its ECO and host, and a large proportion of its readers are USAmericans. You are not in a position to dictate the standards under which your contributions are to be read. If somebody here in the USA calls another person a “cunt”, the callee is always a woman, and the caller can be confidently categorized as a misogynist. It’s too bad for you if usage differs in your parochial part of the world; you’re talking to people who will so categorize, and for good reason. Deal. It’s simple. If you don’t want to be judged as a misogynist, then don’t use the word “cunt” as an insult here.
Please just say ‘ok’ and move on.
jaycubed: You need to read this. It might help you understand what we’re talking about.
Sound & fury signifying nothing.
Went back after lunch to find one sad looking signless 40 day lady praying in the rain & everyone else gone. I assumed that PP had shorter hours on Saturday, but when I checked, the office wasn’t even open. Biggest day of protest & nobody there.
Well, if PZ is interested, he has contact info, Office hours Mon-Fri 9-5 PST.
They should be back Monday & I still have a day to “sacrifice” yet.
Before lunch I did meet the sweetest young girl, probably 4, who apparently liked my rendition of “Take The Skinheads Bowling”. She smiled & said, “I like bowling!”
–
On friend’s computer, as usual, so have to give it back to owner. See ya’ll Monday.
Jaycubed, read carefully. Lean close to your monitor if you have to.
WE DO NOT FUCKING CARE!
Your self-aggrandizing stories are fucking irrelevant to the question of whether it’s okay for you to use our genitalia as a slur. You fucking misogynistic troll.
jaycubed, you are a whiny, hypocritical fuckwit who lacks the intelligence to grok that you are a walking, talking, breathing, keyboard pounding part of the problem.
Either get a clue, Cupcake or get the fuck out. Honestly, do you think anyone outside yourself is interested in your bloated, warped ego?
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Hi Jaycubed,
Back at post #226 I tried to give you a polite, reasoned argument as to why the use of the word “cunt” as you are using it, and as I used to use it, was inappropriate. I’m a little hurt you’re ignoring it in favour of focussing on the harsher language directed your way. All of which I think is justified by the way, but, well, if you were “all about the loftier discussion” you could engage with those who have tried to honestly engage you as opposed to ignoring them.
Granted, my #256 and others are mocking some aspects of your implicit claims and arguments, that’s part of what I do, i.e. mock what I consider to be obviously mockable. So forgive a weak person their little indulgences and try to engage my #226.
Thanks.
Louis
P.S. Oh, and failing that, please answer Janine’s question, and perhaps even my implied question: how many days of volunteer work do I have to do before I can hit a woman? What level of good do I have to do to justify a small act of demonstrable misogyny?
I asked for a simple enough action, which will add a data point. Use cunt in a conversation with your counterprotest partners. Report back. I know you won’t do that, jaycubed, because you’re a hypocrite and a liar. You know damn well just how cunt is used, you know how demeaning it is and you know it’s misogynistic.
Honestly, I do not get, at all, why someone would insist on hanging to a misogynistic slur when they could easily go with something like…rancid douchebag.
Caine,
Why, Caine, that’s just because you’re racist against us Brits. ‘S cultural. Don’t you oppress me.
Okay even I can’t make THAT fly with even a pretence of a straight face! ;-)
Louis
Oh, and just because jaycubed hasn’t been demonstrating much intelligence so far, no, douchebag is not misogynistic. Why?
Douching was a terribly anti-woman practice designed to make women feel ashamed about their natural body odor. Repeated douching can wash away the lining of the uterus, making it not just pointless but dangerous. Douching can lead to infections and increases the risk of ectopic pregnancies and pelvic inflammatory disease.
Louis #274
Louis never lets us have any fun. :(
The fucking asshole cannot even bother to answer one simple question. One that does not involve him begging his case to PZ.
So I will ask fuckface an other simple question. Suppose that cute four year old girl grows a few years older and thinks that one of your actions were misogynistic. Will you stand by your pronciples and call her a cunt. Did you can that protester there a cunt. Did you tell the women at PP that you are helping them against the cunts?
Blow that decaying porcupine out your ass, fuckface. Sound and fury? You should talk.
Also, I doubt that PZ will answer your e-mail nor get involved. Seeing that he is rather busy this weekend and will have a lot of blog cleaning to do Sunday night/Monday morning, I am sure you will be annoying him. He gets banhammer happy when he is annoyed.
Just so you know, you self centered shithead.
Caine, you mean that you are opposed to feeling and smelling fresh.
For some reason, commercials for these products remind me of cat litter.
Louis:
Psssst…you forgot DON’T JUDGE ME!!1!
Janine:
They remind me of car deodorizers. Wimmins, gotta keep ’em all fresh and clean smelling, you don’t want natural, oh no! Yikes.
I’m your vehicle, baby!
We all know women are nasty and smelly. I saw one once. You could see the stink lines.
Hey I’m entitled to my opinion, it’s a free country, you can’t tell me I’m a miso soup. DON’T JUDGE ME!elevenshift111!
Louis
P.S. Caine, you inspire me…wait…that could be taken to mean you smell and the above was a dedication…oh fuck. What’s that large object in your hand? Why are you smiling like that? NOT THE FACE! NOT THE…OK THE FACE! THE FACE! NOT THE BALLS! ;-)
Janine, #281,
“Ride” jokes incoming in 5…4…3…2…
Louis
Janine:
:falls over laughing, hands Janine a plate of cookies and one sniny internets:
Louis:
Oh hey, I’m all natural, man. ‘S okay, as long as I’m not wafting the stench of misogyny. That shit be nasty.
I lol’d.
Caine,
{Waves hand towards face, sniffs}
Ahhhh yes, Jaycubed. I’m getting an oaky note, a little privileged. Hmmm is this misogyny from the Idoppwork Valley? South side I believe. This one has been rather over aged, past its prime. Not much body, unlikely to sustain a robust accompaniment.
{Holds misogynist to the light, swirls}
This one is a little thin, it doesn’t have legs. A poor vintage.
Louis
Okay, honestly, who gives a shit? Both men and women play stupid dating games whether it be men trying to find a way into her pants or her trying to find a guy to buy her free drinks for the night. Whatever. If this book (or any other men’s help/dating/PUA book) helps a guy find a girl he wants, good for him, money well spent. If it doesn’t, then he’s wasted money and time. Hell, there are easily 20:1 dating/relationship books for women:men.
I’m just still surprised that people care so much about this.
marcustaylor:
I’m not surprised, seeing as the point seems to be sailing about 20 miles over your head. You could possibly, oh say, read all the comments. That might provide a clue or three. Here’s the short form: this isn’t about dating or dating techniques. It’s about predation and refusing to treat women as human beings.
If you think “negging” and repeatedly calling a woman bitch and cunt in order to “train her up right” are just about dating, well, something is fucking wrong with you.
I’m concerned about his targets.
Ing:
Oh, don’t be silly, Ing. Women are just another type of animal, after all. As the pua Heartiste recently said:
We’re just around to be a convenient receptacle, accept the whacks to the nose with a rolled up paper and be grateful for catnip.
Caine:
No the point isn’t sailing 20 miles over my head. I’ve read several “Game” books and most of them DON’T want you to act like a total ass, the fact that this one apparently does just means it’s shit. Somehow the author(s) found women that responded well to being called “bitches” and “cunts”, the law of averages will eventually play out that way, but I certainly wouldn’t want to be with any of those women.
As for the whole “train her up right” crap, guess what Amy Sutherland beat these guys to the punch by writing a book on how to train your husband like an animal back in 2008. Took me all of 2 seconds to google to see if someone had written a book of that type and it turns out someone did. And guess what, some people love it, some people hate.
Someone else did it first?
Look go away, this is for adults.
Wow, a woman wrote that type of demeaning book so that proves that men and women are on equal footing.
Problem solved people! Marcustaylor has shown us the errors of our way. Because we now know that there is not the threat of violence behind these techniques.
marcustaylor:
Yes, it did, Cupcake. It seems to still be eluding you. Golly, a woman was sexist! No, impossible! (Insert sarcasm tags here, because I doubt you know it when you read it.) Yes, women can be sexist too and often are. Want to know why? Because sexism is so entrenched in our society, all of us grow up immersed in it.
It takes effort to realize it, see it, and learn to be conscious of it, not only in others, but most importantly, in ourselves. What you’re expending effort on is making weak-ass excuses for predators while heavily leaning on “hey, a woman wrote a sexist book, so there!”. All that does is mark you as an idiot who has no desire whatsoever to learn anything, let alone examine your own biases when it comes to sexism and privilege.
Let’s see…vulnerable women are easily beaten down verbally and emotionally. That’s not responding “well”, fuckwit. I note you conclude that you wouldn’t wish to be with any of “those” women, because of course, it would all be the woman’s fault, right? You really are a broken, dull crayon.
So, as Ing said, go away, Cupcake. You aren’t helping.
marcustaylor:
Also, this ^ tells me all I need to know. It means you have no use for women as individual persons, but are much more comfy with the wimmin as livestock view. That’s what “Game” is all about, no matter how much you may deny it. The “Game” puas and other assorted assholes make no bones about it, nor do they, in any way, try to hide that fact. To the contrary, they are quite proud of it.
Just when I think I have lived long enough to see the end of mansplayners this idiot shows up. It may end up OK though, Jezus probably sent him here to straighten out the uppity atheist bitches.
Patricia:
Unfortunately, there’s no shortage of them. I’d be so happy to never see another privilege-bloated mansplainer.
And therefore it is morally neutral.
Dear asshole,
I give a shit.
Here’s why. And by the way, if you don’t at least try to understand where this is coming from, you’re a fucking coward.
Less than a year after the last of the multiple times I have been raped so far, several months after my second abuser was done wrecking me, I was among other things a broken shell of a person, with no boundaries and no self-respect, whose alarm bells had long ago been smashed to pieces. I was going through life believing that “I” didn’t exist, that I wasn’t a real person, and that the only reason I even had to go on living is that my physical death would hurt the people around me, who didn’t realize that I was already gone. (And whatever was happening to me, I wasn’t worth causing anyone else pain.) I was also profoundly submissive, intensely approval-seeking, and as always, mildly affected by autism. I knew that not everyone in the world was like the person who had broken me, because the man who helped me get away from my abuser and then dumped me because I was too broken was actually a fairly decent human being, but I had no idea how to tell the difference. I cannot tell when I am being lied to.
It was at this time that I discovered the existence of PUAs. I discovered them because a man, who may or may not have actually been one, approached me in a restaurant when I was with my friends. He was rude and pushy, domineering, and insulting to my (male) friends, he made backhanded compliments to me and talked over me, and then he took my notebook to write down his phone number. I was overwhelmed and intimidated. As I often did when threatened, I basically shut down. I could not think, could not make decisions, went into a sort of hypersubmissive mode where I just wanted to do whatever would make the threat stop being one. It was a skill I honed dealing with my abusers. I remain thankful that my friends were there (despite the fact that they are giant assholes) because I doubt he would have stopped at leaving me his number if they hadn’t been.
Being rather upset by the experience, I went home and called my decent ex, who broke the news as gently as possible (because he knew how well I’d take it) that he thought I was dealing with a PUA, and what that was. I did not understand at first. Then I did. And I curled up on the phone with him and had a breakdown. Because I knew what they were doing, and that is something that has stuck with me and been reinforced every time I read how they talk about us. Because they are looking for me. They are looking for the women who will shut down, who will try to please them if they’re hurtful, who will not push back when they start violating boundaries. And they’re deliberately targeting them – us – as prey. To “win,” by fucking us. Doesn’t matter what we want, who we are. We have to be tricked and trained into pleasing responses. Women who respond to “negging” by seeking approval? Women who respond “well” to being called bitches and cunts? I was one. Because I had been fucking destroyed. And these assholes want to use that to fucking trick women like me into being their fucking disposable sex toys. Don’t kid yourself – these people, the way they dehumanize us? They’re not looking for happy relationships or consensual flings between equals. They’re looking for victims, and that makes them a danger to me.
So why do I care? Fuck you for not caring.
CC, I doubt you’ll get through to the moronic marcustaylor, however, I hope that those reading who do have a functioning brain will appreciate your openness about what happened to you and have a very serious think about just how harmful this sort of shit happens to be.
And marcustaylor, don’t you fucking dare read Cassandra Caligaria’s post and say something like “oh, that’s rare” or “oh, that’s not what Game/pua is about.”
Read the comments, you fuckwitted ass. All of them.
So. Fucking. What?
Seriously, why do you think this is relevant? I’d like you to try and articulate why you think that should make any difference whatever to how the book brought to PZ’s attention is assessed.
Cassandra Caligaria, I fucking hate that this happened to you. And I am very grateful for (and in awe of) your courage in telling it here.
Yeah. How could the denial of equal rights, the denial of full self-expression, the denial of safety, the denial of humanity of about half the human race be important?
And the fact that you, and (presumeably) the books, refer to trying to trick women into sleeping with you as a game doesn’t clue you in that there is a problem? Women are human beings, not prizes to be won in a drunken carnival.
Additionally, ‘act[ing] like a total ass’ is in the eye of the beholder. What is normal and acceptable to a pick up artist trying to trick a woman into bed is not acceptable to many people. Including me.
“Two wrongs make a right” didn’t work for me when I was eight years old, didn’t work for my kids when they were eight years old, and it doesn’t work for you.
A woman writing a book demeaning men does not magically eliminate the inherent power inequalities of the rape culture of western society.
And they are seldom here at the same time. Are they tag-teaming?
Be safe, Cassandra.
You’re courage makes a difference.
CC, as always, it is more devastating to have a real case of what the PUA are doing and who they are targeting as opposed to knowing that violence and threats are behind what they do.
I do hope you have a good support system in place and are making use of it.
Thanks to everybody for the support. ♥ I really am doing better now, and I have what I need in the way of support most of the time. And yeah, Caine, you’re right, I’m probably not going to get through to the superior-apathetic dipshit… I don’t know what it is about brick-wall trolls that brings out the long impassioned posts from me, but I feel like it might be my way of channeling the impulse to smash my computer…
CC:
I understand the impulse, all too well. Marcuswhatshisface doesn’t matter. You know the amount of people who read but don’t comment, and you’ve seen some of those people post once to say thank you. What you wrote may make some men think, long and hard about views they hold and what you wrote may help some women out there who are having a very bad time and thinking they are all alone.
Wow, that is some shit, CC. I’m glad things are getting better, that’s… awful.
Gods, I hope so. I did the whole hives thing writing it, so thank you for reminding me there might be someone helped by it. I hope it does help somebody instead of just further depressing people who are already my friends and allies.
And thanks, rutee. It really is getting a lot better. I’m actually off to post a success story in TET maybe, after I do the dishes!