Jesus led me to become an atheist.
Being raised in the Catholic Church, I attended years of CCD (what
they called Catechism before that and call something else now) but
never made it to confirmation. Like all teenagers, by High School I
believed I knew better than adults and told my mom I didn’t believe in
God or that Jesus was his son. This pissed off my mother, but then I
was only just getting started with finding things with which to piss
her off. I believed religion was a crutch and religious people were
nutcases. My teenage self would be horrified at some of my later
religious phases.
A year or so after High School, and much family drama, I found myself
without friends or family and in the Army. My solitude, my need, and a
book I found in the library called Drawing Down the Moon led me into
Wicca. It, and the Mists of Avalon, had me convinced that all the time
I’d been praying to the Virgin Mary the one who I really should be
worshiping was the Goddess.
You know how hard that is to admit? It’s like getting caught singing
into the hairbrush in front of the mirror.
Wicca was cool and I could see all kinds of parallels between the
rituals from the Catholic Church and the rituals practiced in spells.
I learned that Magik is really all about focusing your positive energy
to influence the world around you (not much different than the woo
peddled in “The Secret” or “What the Bleep”.) It made me feel
incredibly cool and gothic and special. And I totally missed the point
that I was estranged from my mother and was now replacing her with a
Goddess.
Then I fell in love with a Baptist who feared that I and my heathen
ways were going to Hell because I hadn’t accepted Jesus as my personal
Savior. First I went along with it because I wanted him and wanted him
to marry me, and then I got sucked into it completely. I helped in my
own brainwashing. I went to Bible study. I listened to Christian
radio. I was led to be “Born Again” and was baptized with a full
dunking in a Baptist Church because my Catholic baptism as a child
“didn’t count.” My Baptist in-laws were so happy. Wow, I finally had
parents who were proud of me.
When my marriage was failing, I bought the Praying Wife and stuck with
it. Eventually the day finally came, six years later, that I couldn’t
stick with it anymore.
Without him I didn’t go to Baptist Church anymore but, instead, I
started going to Catholic Church again because I missed the ritual and
non-Catholic Churches don’t feel like “real” churches. But the
Catholic Church was lacking in the “motivational speaking” I’d come to
depend on from the Baptist side. So I retained my brain washing and
listened to Christian Radio and read the Left Behind Series. Because
of that, I almost dumped my
said-he-was-Catholic-but-didn’t-really-believe-in-it-but-believed-in-something
boyfriend because, according to my Left Behind saturated mind, he was
damned and going to Hell.
This time when love won out over everything else it luckily turned out
to be the right decision.
My now husband, who has a phobia about shaking hands with strangers,
wouldn’t go to church with me because of this (or so he claims) and I
wanted to have a more “spiritual marriage.” Because I felt he wasn’t
enough of a believer, went looking for things that would convince him
to become one. This led to some very stimulating discussions that
didn’t have the effect either of us were looking for. I started to
think that if only I could get back to what the Catholic Church was
before it was corrupted by mankind I’d be on the right track. I
thought if I could just learn more I’d be able to reach certainty and
not feel like I was deluding myself.
And then one day, I was watching one of the many documentaries they
have on the History or Discovery Channel about the history of the
Bible or the Christians, and it mentioned very casually, as an aside,
that there was doubt as to whether Jesus ever existed.
What… wait a minute…WHAT? I thought that the existence of Jesus wasn’t
in doubt. That couldn’t be true. There had to at least have been a guy
that at one time was a leader and maybe later on his message was
distorted. There had to have been someone who was the Martin Luther
King of his day, right?
And much like described in the movie “The God Who Wasn’t There”, the
more I looked for a historical Jesus, the more, or rather less, I
found of him. This was the beginning of the domino chain that led to
my Atheism.
Now I listen to podcasts and read blogs about Humanism, Science,
Atheism and Skepticism. I now ask myself questions like “What do I
believe and why do I believe it?” My husband and I enjoy trips
together to science lectures (where he doesn’t have to shake anyone’s
hand) and a visit to the planetarium will give me that goose bump
feeling of wonder that a good sermon used to.
Heather V
United States
This is another good one for godbots to read. When they say we “don’t understand” faith or that we “haven’t read” their Bible and other religious fictions – yes, we do and we have: we just reject it. There are lots of seekers out there, like Heather, who can relate to her struggle and might be surprised where it lead her. thanks for sharing this.
Of course Jesus wasn’t real, he was an alien.
That wasn’t what the History program was claiming?
Glen Davidson
Heather – thank you for that. It’s rare to see stories by people who became that zealous as adults rather than as young children.
I love the “getting caught singing into a hairbrush in front of a mirror” analogy. That’s how I feel about a lot of my old beliefs. Great essay!
When I read that, I read “retained” as “rented”. I’m now viewing people who flit from one brand of woo to another as “renting their brain washing”. Works for me!
Pointless data point: In our parish in the mid 1960s, CCD was called Chi-Rho. Also, I was well into adolescence before I found out that the odd symbol the RCs put on their vestments was a merger of a chi and a rho, and had nothing to do with dispensing drugs.
Heather, I’m so glad you were saved!
Lessee now: Catholic. Atheist. Wiccan. Baptist. Re-Catholic. Re-Atheist.
Somewhere along the line, a typo must have occurred: this story was written by Heather VI!
Welcome to reality, Heather. Your story reads like one of an abusive process, so it is pleasing to know you are finally free!
Entertaining and unique entry, Heather.
.
It’s interesting what a paradox HELL is. I guess that’s why people are so afraid to hear their closest friends and family are atheists, because heaven would definitely not be heaven if you’re aware that friends or family members are roasting in hell. The religious have a choice in this life; to shun their friends and family to avoid this paradox or to stop kidding themselves and love their friends and family regardless of it. But most choose to be safer than sorry, simply for an ancient hypothetical. Religion is that evil.
.
Gotta love the planetarium, though. I teared up while watching HUBBLE on Omnimax. It was either because I hadn’t blinked for five minutes or Leonardo Decaprio’s voiceover. I’ll never know.
-Heather, have you thought that perhaps you are atheist because you do not want to believe in God?
Perhaps it is more logical that God Created the World rather then it randomly came about and you just came here from a monkey? This would be more logical, following your intellect, non?
There is nothing wrong with admitting you are wrong, actually you are more part of the bad side if you can not admit your errors.
Best of Luck
Bob
Heather,
You reminded me of the time I met a Catholic evangelical. She asked me if I had been baptized and when I said I had, informed me that I was saved. The faith (United Methodist) didn’t matter, I was sealed in God. :)
Good to hear you have a good life now, and that things are going swimmingly for you and yours.
Heather, I’m so glad you submitted this! Your journey is so similar to mine (though mine lacks the Catholicism). This especially rings true for me:
I started to think that if only I could get back to what the Catholic Church was before it was corrupted by mankind I’d be on the right track. I thought if I could just learn more I’d be able to reach certainty and not feel like I was deluding myself.
Bob, #10
We can but go where the evidence leads us. It doesn’t lead us to Genesis, but to a much broader, deeper tapestry. It must suck to be so wrapped up in God.
Fixed that for you again Bozo Bob.
Since there is no evidence for your imaginary deity, and a million or so scientific papers showing evolution occurred and how it works, the logical conclusion is that you are full of shit Bozo Bob. You have no intellect, but instead are a parrot repeating nonsense you have memorized.
So Bozo Bob, when are you going to admit you are wrong about your imaginary deity existing, your babble being inerrant and not a book of mythology/fiction, and religion trumps science as far as reality goes? Or, are you to stupid to know how wrong you are?
-Thomas Lawson, I was crying watching HUBBLE on Omnimax, it is so beautiful what God has created for us, the Universe and everything, I cant keep the tears inside I felt like a child.
Godbot Bob, please explain to me how “A wizard did it” is a logical explanation for the origin of the universe
Bob:
Those of us who have spent substantial portions of our lives studying your Bible, your God, and all the mythology, history, archaeology, contemporary secular and pagan literature, and science surrounding it just feel sorry for you. Especially when you go “Something. Why not nothing? Ergo, Yahweh!”
Your God is not worthy of worship. If there is a God, you blaspheme It horribly by associating it with this genocidal, child-murdering, scatalogical Canaanite throwback. Yahweh is a small, provincial, ignorant, petulant bully with the morality of…well, of a Bronze-age tyrant. Which is what he is.
Are you ever going to stop blaspheming?
Interesting how “it just happened” is ridiculous to Bobby boy for evolution, and but when his god “just happened” that is fine and dandy.
Yes dear, you are the center of the universe. Like a child indeed.
Actually I’ll go one step further.
Science doesn’t know? We’re working on it.
Religion doesn’t know? Shut up or you will be punished for all eternity.
I know which one is more honest.
Fixed another one for you Bozo Bob. You deity doesn’t exist, your babble is mythology/fiction, and you have presented no hard evidence for either presupposition being true.
Heather, if you haven’t yet, you’ll love reading Fred at Slacktivist’s Left Behind series of takedowns. The most delicious part is that he is an evangelical Christian, but takes apart those books every way from Sunday. (sadly, they are in reverse chronological order so you have to go to the bottom and work up)
@22
Wasn’t Slacktivist that guy who was preaching “evangelical annihilationism” or trying to push the idea that the Christian Hell is only a metaphor or something? I remember seeing a thread like that and not being at all impressed.
Sorry, I addressed the godbot without even mentioning the original post.
Thank you for sharing, Heather V. I’m glad you eventually realized that you can live happily without clinging to any religion or god(s).
Bob #10, I dunno ’bout Heather but I dint come here from no monkey! I come here from one bad-ass thigh-bone swingin’ upright-walkin’ primate who bleepin’ ruled his patch of the savannah and dint take shit from nobody not even a sabertooth. So there.
Thanks, Heather, that was great – especially the hairbrush part, I’m still grinning about the delightful honesty of that one.
And, Yay! Bob showed up! Happy Monkey! [uncorks new bottle, pours a sparkling glassful]
Hazuki, Slacktivist’s Left Behind posts are clearly marked*, so you can skip his other ones. I highly recommend his Left Behind posts though. He has been working through the books literally a few pages at a time, skewering the horrid writing, the absolute narcissistic sociopathy of the supposed heroes, the complete lack of even a basic understanding of the way government, the news media, or even just plain human beings work, and the completely insane sequence of events that make up Tim Lahaye’s version of the “end times”.
Among other things.
He’s been at it for several years now, a post every week or so, and he’s finally nearing the end of the second book.
A quick example: a character is introduced, Tsion Ben Judah – an elderly Israeli who is established as a respected expert on ancient scripture and languages. An Israeli group hires him to spend three years trying ID the messiah. Despite already knowing over 20 ancient languages, he discovers that he has to learn two more: Greek and Aramaic. He then plunges into the obvious beginning for a Jewish theological study: a year looking at the New Testament.
Just look at the concentrated WTF for that one character.
*For instance, the second book is called “Tribulation Force”, so all his posts about have titles begging with “TF:”.
Bob,
You’re a stupid, bigoted, lying scumbag. So stupid you think all atheists are communists and see no reason to help others. So bigoted you refer to homosexual people as “faggots”. Such a liar you came here pretending (in remarkably unconvincing fashion) to be an atheist.
Just fuck off, Bob. Then ram a rotting porcupine up your fundament. That will have the great advantage of preventing you from telling any more lies or flaunting any more of your bigotry, at least verbally.
Yes, the whole fucking universe, with its millions of empty light years, sparkling with objects of unimaginable power, mass and and size, was created just for a few unconsequential beings living on a unconsequential speck of dirt.
It’s like a bunch of ants imagining that the Great Picnic was left there by the Almighty Ant, just for them to find.
How pathetic.
And we’re repeatedly told we’re the arrogant ones.
An odd name, that.
“Tsion”, of course, is a transliteration of the word “ציון”, which is more usually rendered “Zion”. “Judah” is the usual transliteration of the word “יהודה”, but if they were going to be consistent with the first name, it should have been transliterated “Yehudah”.
Clearly, the Israeli group was so stupid that rather than getting an expert in ancient scripture and languages of the classical era of the near east, they got an expert in ancient scripture and languages of the far east — Pali, Sanskrit, Tamil, Dravidian, Mandarin, Cantonese, Vietnamese, and so on.
Because that’s what you do when you want to find a
very naughty boymessiah in/of the near east.*shakes head sadly*
Not even the Dead Sea Scrolls? No, of course not.
Thank you for sharing that Heather. We all seek for things and sometimes slip onto odd paths in the seeking, it is refreshing to see someone who is so aware of the paths the trod and their motivations.
I too can find a shiver in the planetarium that has nothing to do with drafts.
Like so many other essays I started out thinking this was going to be a long one, and ended up wanting more.
So many different experiences with and without religion. I love them all.
Thanks Heather!
Excellent except you misspelled Jeebus.
Thank-you Heather V: I am an atheist because finally after all the lying I had to do be loved and accepted, I listened to the voice I could hear in my head saying, Why not be honest? Why not say that you don’t get the thing even if you dress in a suit and attend prayer meetings… I finally decided to suffer honesty and had to leave them all behind…. Apparently, I threw out the baby Jesus with the bathwater but I swear the little tyke was not there!
Heather, thank you for that! I’ve met people who are still searching for the truth in religion and it makes their lives hell, not to mention the lives of their loved ones sometimes.
I went from being a believer at twelve to a lukewarm agnostic worrying about near-death experiences at thirty. What finally set me free was hearing someone on CBC radio admit that there was no real historical evidence that Jesus ever existed.
…and that’s why this dialogue is so important.
Thank you, Heather. An excellent read and an excellent explanation of your journey towards reality.
Godbot Bob #10
Bob, have you thought that perhaps we are atheists because we do not need to believe in god(s)?
There’s no god shaped hole in our psyches crying out to be filled. We assert the foundation for our thoughts and actions lie in proven methods related to science and the establishment of reality. In this, we believe we have everything we need to live moral, satisfying lives.
Hazuki – neither of those sounds like Fred, but I’m not sure. The link I provided is all the LB posts in one set of results.
Thanks for your story, Heather.
I admit I am surprised by this (and Monado’s above comment). Until I started frequenting Pharyngula, I hadn’t come across much in the way of arguments that there was no historical Jesus, despite being an atheist for nearly half a century. I still think it more likely than not that there was such a person – but what does that matter? Whether there was or not, the gospels are full of contradictions and absurdities about quite ordinary matters, so there’s no reason at all to credit them when they report extraordinary ones.
Thanks, Bob, you’ve reminded me to get the latest version of killfile.
If there was a physical Jesus, then we can argue about what he did, how much was exaggerated, and what significance to give it. But if he didn’t exist, the whole story is irrelevant: its significance is that of a myth.
Read it again, Bob. From Catholic to Wicca to Baptist, back to Catholic…does this sound like someone who didn’t want to believe in God?
Putting aside your straw version of evolution (more reading comprehension difficulties, it would seem), if you arrived at “God” through a logical process, I would like to see the logical steps that led you to that conclusion. As they say in math class, show your work.
Killed By Fish
Umm, I am not sure about this point, can I get some help here from the good folks at Pharyngula?
While being set free is surely a positive, are historians anywhere close to 100% that the man did not exist?
Besides that, whether Jesus existed or not does not bring more or less significance to the myth of Jesus Christ. It is still irrelevant as fact is it not?
I suppose if he existed we could discuss what he did as a man though his significance in history is still that of a myth.
[OT]
Infinite123Lifer, you might find this old thread of interest: Who says we don’t need bible scholars?
There was a time when the historicity of Jesus was taken as granted, but in recent decades the controversy has grown. So far, the majority consider that he did exist, but a number of eminent scholars do think otherwise.
If Jesus was mythical, the foundations of Christianity crumble.
(Surely this is evident to you?)
The whole point is that we only know about story-Jesus, not about the putative real man — all we know is hearsay.
So, no, we couldn’t.
Congratulations on a rather roundabout journey to sanity…but…
_The Mists of Avalon_? I *knew* Marion Zimmer Bradley (my wife sold her around 30 short stories for various publications she edited). She knew she was writing fiction. She didn’t “beleive” in what she wrote, so it’s rather mind boggling to hear from someone who did.
(I do understand that that happens to a fair number of authors. Heinlein is a particular case in point, especially over _Stranger in a Strange Land_, but still…)
–W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
What I enjoy most about these stories is that no matter where you start you can end up as an atheist. All it takes is the ability and the will to think critically follow the evidence. I don’t know of any religion that can make a similar claim.
I have an interesting question. Well, I think it is interesting and important to recognize as a possibility.
When people who were once imprinted with the myth’s of god are faced with impossible Life situations, such as near death experience, or child-birth or enduring a loved ones suffering. . . will they resort back to old theist thinking?
In my experience yes. While I was raised Catholic until the 2nd grade my parents adopted an atheist point of view (out of anger I think) from there on out. While I do not believe in God of any type I found myself drowning on March 10, 2010 in a near frozen lake, 1 mile from shore after deciding kayaking to my 7 pm chemistry class would be freakin’ awesome. After swimming for an hour out of 33 degree lake water, running through blackberry bushes for 2 miles to find help before I died of hypothermia, screaming and crying for joy that I was not dead and finally being rescued by a dog named Oreo and her master. . . I assure you folks (i shave my head, so to get caught singing to the hairbrush in the mirror is especially embarrassing for me) I was praying/hoping/begging to some sort of. . . what could only be described as God for strength.
I had questioned everything I had come to accept as empirical evidence of no God, drowning in that lake. Shortly after my ER trip I then resorted back to my meager ability to contemplate existence and with it the observation that God does not exist either. (I say meager because it is well pointed out here that apparently I have no ability to think logically.)
Just reading Heather V’s story I agree that while her rational mind does this sort of thinking, I seriously wonder if her irrational mind would make a survivalist leap back into a long buried theist mindset.
The television show “I survived” would be an interesting reference. I wonder how many people on the show might have similar experiences i.e. don’t believe in god and then suddenly find themselves not knowing what to think faced with such horrible situations.
I certainly do not think just because this happened to me that it happens to everyone. Please, if you have never experienced a truly near death experience please do not attack with the regular condescension my posts generally receive. I think I have posed a good question, a good point of view in determining just how far a person can leave their theist belief’s behind.
Heather V, I mean no disrespect at all. I enjoyed your essay. But I wonder. . . how right am I in my portrayal of you in a tough situation? I was as honest as I could be here for the sake of investigation, for the sake of experience, for the sake of the truth.
I suggest that believing in something greater than self due to the onslaught of the religious narrative over time has in fact created a type of present day survival instinct to take pressure away from the moment. It worked for me, I managed to survive because I concentrated on breathing regularly (as pathetic as that is in frozen water) and taking myself out of the equation by praying to the Universe to give me strength.
Has this sort of stuff been scientifically addressed in “the third man phenomenon” which takes place with NDE’s (near death experience’s).
Thank you John but no I did not realize this. It seems entirely irrelevant because of the current state of Christianity. Those are big if’s which will probably never occur. Also, The Son of God Jesus Christ is mythical and the foundations have not crumbled. What difference would it make if the man were mythical as well. Myth’s are myth’s are myth’s are myth’s.
[OT]
My experience is contrary to yours.
Really, the tired old claim of “no atheists in foxholes” is spurious and has numerous testified counter-examples. It’s just theistic propaganda used for group-reinforcement.
NDE’s have been thoroughly debunked as anything other than wishful thinking.
Also John, thanks for the link. I will have to make my way through that. Much appreciated.
Infinite123Lifer:
WTF?!
(You are unaware of the Nicene Creed, recited by mainstream Christian denominations?)
Yes, but is there a physically evident survival instinct rooted in our evolution which can produce the The Third Man Phenomenon?
Interesting, I had never heard that adage about atheist’s on foxholes and certainly I would have to agree that not all people are the same and that the adage is false. But, I would still argue by reason alone that there are many many many who would and do resort back to their theist beliefs. Of course, if your speaking about personal experience I understand your statement being contrary, but neither one of us can certainly speak for all atheist’s. As Heather V mentioned brainwashing several times, I merely wonder what it really takes to wash the brain free of the brainwashing.
Spending some time with the family. Be back later.
Affirmative John, once again I am unaware. I don’t know that much about religious things. I learned at a young age that it is bullshit propaganda. I will check it out though.
John, I think you underestimate sophistimicated theology, in which the story of Jebus is true spiritually, regardless of whether it is true physically. In essence, it remains true, just like a cracker is, in essence, flesh, despite its wheaty substance. It’s a mystery, just as three=one.
Interestingly, one of the pieces of evidence used by the advocates for a Mythical Jesus is that St Paul never writes anything about a historical Jesus. If so, the very foundations of Christianity were built on the Jesus character as a spiritual godling who didn’t actually have any earthly presence.
If the New Testament was wrong about Jesus (which seems likely) then Jesus (Yeshua to use his original name) would just be a Jewish rabbi, and would that be such a bad thing?
That was great Heather! Thanks. I was not “born” Catholic- I was born naked but became a convert via my mother’s second marriage at my age of about 10. Bought into it, went to a Jesuit Novitiate to be a priest but left after a year and became agnostic (I guess). Married a raised Lutheran woman who couldn’t stand religions and left religion behind for 35 years. After she passed away I started meditating to regain my composure and now am happy not knowing if I believe any of it. Have my own beliefs about what god and the universe might be but don’t think I’ll ever know. I really appreciate your openness; and congratulate you on continuing honestly on your journey. Peace. Dave, Chicago
Infinite123lifer-
Touching story about your near drowning. Just one or two questions, however. What were you doing kayaking on a “near frozen” lake? I lived in Seattle for 30 years, and Lake Washington, at its widest, would not have left me a mile from shore (either side). Were you wearing a wet suit? Because I’m sure that you would not have survived in 33 degree water for an hour (that would be a true miracle). Considering that you were on your way to an evening chemistry class, what were you planning on doing with your kayak and your wetsuit while you were there? How were you able to run at all after being in water (33 degrees) for an hour, much less two miles? Are you an experienced kayaker? Did you get back into your boat? In short, I’m having a little trouble believing you.
Are you sure the dog wasn’t named Lassie?
For those wanting to know more about the historicity of Jesus I recommend “The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man” by Robert M Price and for the more intellectually robust (it’s a pretty hard slog) “Jesus, Neither God Nor Man” by Earl Doherty. Both very convincing.
I think it is perfectly within the abilities of the religious to maintain their delusions in the face of convincing evidence that Jesus never existed. As noted above, the original Christianity was not about a person but a cosmic son of god who never came to Earth at all, and who did all his sacrificing in the lowest of the heavens, the “sphere of the flesh”. No reason why they couldn’t go back to that. Most of them just make it up as they go along anyway.
For rwgate:
Sorry for the thread jack. Its been awhile since I thought about this. But I try to answer questions when I can. Will not let me preview either so here is what I got.
My license was suspended that day for failure to pay Insurance ticket. I refused to take the chance of driving illegally and thus decided not to go to class. I consequently got the great idea to boat from the south side of Lake Whatcom to Alabama Hill in Bellingham and take the bus to school. Kayak would have been fine in the park, consequently needing a wetsuit for cold water did not dawn on me. I have learned this lesson.
When I exited the water I was wearing a t-shirt, a long sleeve shirt another shirt a life-jacket (WEAR THEM!) a hand made beanie, wrist braces and boxers. When I entered the water I had all that on plus boots, socks, sweats, a flannel, a jacket and hunting pants…oh and a backpack which I never saw again. Estimated 55 minutes since I went in the water, (I left @ 3:30 was rescued by ambulance @ 5:30) I cannot swim very well at all and I assure you, I lost muscle control and while laying on my back kicking after awhile I just ended up kicking myself in the legs unable to displace water. I would then roll over and do 3 or 4 long slow breaststrokes then back to my back. The biggest problem was breathing. Because I was breathing so hard in such cold I kept swallowing water, either on my back or on my stomach I could not stop swallowing water. I named the water I was swallowing to be able to continue to emotionally deal with it, “that was beer, oh have some milk, gatorade, vodka, urine”, I ran out of liquids to name. I might not have been 5,280 feet from shore, but then again it might have been. I have never went back and measured.
Adrenaline? Whoever you are, I just wanted to die on land. I did not want to drown. I wanted to die on land. After what seemed 2 hours of pathetic swimming when I finally saw leaves hanging out over the water above my head I then told myself I did not swim that far to die on land. I was at Bear Creek Trail, 2.5 miles to the trail head, I was at the damn marker. I started screaming then running, then jogging, then mustering tears of failure and scraping my toes from lack of muscle control and came across Oreo :) :) :) a Bernese Mountain Dog. I was literally running, crying and screaming. I realized afterward that by screaming for help at the top of my lungs it created blood flow in my lungs and expelled much of the water I had inhaled (at least that is what it felt like, so I kept screaming IAM NOT GOING TO DIE TODAY GOD!, it felt good to scream so I kept yelling to draw attention and keep myself working) this really helped with my breathing and kept me motivated. Being 40 pounds overweight was a . . . good thing that day as well. Firefighters and ambulance speculated my fat arse and my ability to keep going was all that stood between me and the inevitable.
Not at all. My sons mom and her best friend were snow-boarding that day at Mt. Baker. Nobody was on the lake to save me because nobody is dumb enough to be on the lake in the freezing cold. It snowed that day and the lake was 33 degrees. I thought if I had a life-jacket on I would be fine. I love the Ocean but am not a good swimmer, let me rephrase that, I don’t swim. I was right back to YMCA swim lessons when I hit that water. First time in a kayak BTW. It was dumb.
I tried to swim for the kayak but there was an easterly wind. Seconds after hitting the water I did not panic at all. I thought, get back to the boat no problem. Problem was I am not a strong swimmer and the kayak was moving away from me quickly because of the waves and the wind. From the shore it was not choppy at all. Once I got out to the center of Lake Whatcom on the South Eastern side it was very choppy. I had a choice to make, swim to what looked like an impossibly far shore or keep swimming after the kayak more further out to the center. I chose the shore. I could not catch the kayak and by the time I stopped panicking and got my clothes off the kayak was at least 20 feet away, which looked like to far to swim, especially into the center of the lake, I was immediately panicked, out of breath and cold and I figure I spent about 12 seconds swimming for the kayak, I then gave up on it out of fear I could not catch it and would drown in the center.
The dogs name is Oreo. I managed to get one phone number off to the lady before I passed out. She called my girlfriend and said I was dead. She came by a week later and said I was the color of the sky when Oreo found me. Really I found him, I heard a bark and took off running for the sound, I used my life-jacket to put on the ground where the blackberry bushes were intolerable, other than that I was LOVING the sting of pain in my frozen blue feet, I knew I was gonna live and was happy with anything other than drowning. I could feel the pain and had berry thorns in my feet for 2 months after. Still having trouble? Sorry, but by my comment at 48 is really not intended as John Morales put it(whether he intended it or not)
I am asking a serious question. Do people, when severely rattled go back to theist thinking when confronted with horrible situations? It happened to me. I am not trying to say anything about anybody, it is just an observation I made and I seriously doubt that many people will not resort to a “help me god” if the situation turns bad. I seriously doubt it! I say this not because I am trying to prove how stupid I am or because there is a god but because of the nature of our world today. Religion is crammed down peoples throats since there birth. How maddening is this? Very. How wrong is it? Horribly. What effect does it have in the long run faced with bad situations when there is no where else to turn? In that water, well, logic probably would of deemed not to go into the water, but thinking about it and controlled breathing and a LIFE-JACKET (WEAR THEM, better safe than sorry even if your the best swimmer) saved my Life. Really, if it were not for focusing on breathing, staying positive and concentrating on my strength and putting my…mind to the back of my mind. . . well, nobody would have to bother reading this because I would not be writing it.
I find it unbelievable that you think I would make up a story to serve some purpose at @ post 48. Has it not been shown that I am clearly not that clever in previous posts? (that should be provable, smile at those who know) I am not trying to get any sort of bandwagon or movement or group theory going on, I just asked a question. I was going to Whatcom Community College. My chemistry teacher was Monica Brewer, before that it was Paul Frazey and I was in Ed Harri’s Calc 2 class at the time of the incident as well. All great teachers. Monica and Paul do research work at WWU..
Not sure, if it makes you feel any better. I don’t have time to get on here and lie though. I am asking questions and sharing experience is all. If this happened to me it surely has happened to others, I am not that special.(sarcasm)
Point about life jacket is a good one, but it seems you saved yourself more than anything else.
For WhiteHatLurker:
Indeed, I almost killed myself, then I saved myself.
I attribute it to 3 things.
1. Concentration on getting air into my lungs by focusing 100% on breathing.
2. Life jacket WEAR THEM! :)
3. Hope, never giving up.
[OT]
Infinite123Lifer:
I think you don’t realise what you would be undertaking to attempt to do so “by reason alone” — for one thing, you would need to exclude your own anecdote. :)
(Is empiricism something else of which you are unaware?)
Bob Stevensson wrote:
Mr. Stevensson, I never met a “Bob” I didn’t like until just now. You, sir, are an idiot. Your “Perhaps it is more logical that God Created the World rather then it randomly came about and you just came here from a monkey?” is amazingly stupid.
We share ancestors with modern monkeys and the other modern apes, but we evolved from ancient apes who did not look like any creature living today. Our closest cousins the chimpanzee apes evolved just as much as we have. These basic scientific facts are more logical than your childish fantasies because these facts have repeatedly been shown to be true, and because your fantasies are ridiculous.
Your stupidity is completely out of control. You invoke your fairy for everything, even the development of solar systems.
You’re good for something Stevensson. Any young person reading your insane bullshit is likely to figure out your death cult is only for gullible uneducated morons like yourself. Please keep up the good work Mr. Tard.
http://darwinkilledgod.blogspot.com/
Perhaps John, perhaps. However, it is an interesting conundrum nevertheless. As I said, maybe the tv show “I survived” would be a good place to look for evidence of such reverting back to theist views when up against the proverbial wall. I fear it will be a long time before religion’s grasp upon the minds is relinquished, before the minds are washed of the brainwashing which has gone on for millenia. One day at a time, one argument at a time, one open mind at a time, one quest for the truth at a time, one blog at a time. The damage has truly been done, regardless of my experience.
Cheers
Infinite123Lifer:
Almost certainly not, since that’s inviting selection bias.
(What you’d need is proper statistical sampling)
Although John, looking to a tv show for empirical results is absurd. I don’t think it depends on the tv show either. It is probably not at all a good form of practice. But, it was an idea of somewhere to look for results of this nature. I don’t watch tv but have heard about and seen parts the show “I survived” of the show on an occasion or two.
BTW, I do remember seeing something on “the third man phenomenon”. As I remember though it had absolutely nothing to do with belief in god and was strictly science based (or maybe I just ignored the questions and sought the physical explanation, there were many questions about this 3rd man phenomenon). If I remember right at the end of the show it was attributed to an evolutionary trait for survival. As I remember when somebody is faced with overwhelming adversity if there “rational” mind were to emotionally deal with the circumstances it could cause immense fear and thus create a worse situation.
I was very shocked to hear you say NDE (maybe not of all kinds you were referring to, as I was kind of specific about my experience) have been “debunked”. Surely time has slowed down for all of us on occasion or two, a heightened sense of awareness attributed by science (I thought) to be a complex evolutionary set of survival skills. Accidents, fights, extra ordinary events, even hitting a fastball time can slow down, the senses heighten. In the extrema it would seem the mind has a few tricks of its own, if it did not, we probably would not have survived.
I wonder if many minds have been tricked (by religion), then fixed(by evidence) then tricked back purely to survive.
I ask myself the question, if I was a caveman would I have been begging God for strength in my time of need…LOL, I highly doubt it John. :)
What I need is just to share once in awhile and find out whats going on out there, but your right, maybe I could make a thesis out of this.
p.s. pseudoscience can be very tricky I am told. I think my bs detectors have gone up a notch since reading Pharyngula. I need to learn how to be on the lookout for that kind of manipulation.
[meta]
Infinite123Lifer,
:)
I should’ve saved my #66.
If you’re not familiar with it, the Skeptic’s Dictionary is an excellent starting point for looking up specific stuff.
Having trouble with the server. Btw
I wonder if many minds have been tricked (by religion), then fixed(by evidence) then tricked back purely to survive.
What I meant was
“then tricked back (by memory alone) purely to survive.”
I don’t find this particularly convincing. It’s clear Paul never met Jesus, and also clear he wanted to establish himself as Top Christian. Naturally, then, he would de-emphasise the historical Jesus he never met, and focus on the heavenly Jesus he claimed had specifically called him.
Infinite123Lifer, “Once bitten, twice shy”.
For John @ 71
Exactly. It seems logical given the capacity of memory, the capacity of religion to influence & the nature of the mind in a desperate situation. :)
I know its what happened to me. Consequently, I guess my disclaimer is akin to getting caught singing Elton John into my sisters hairbrush in the mirror naked by my dreamgirl. IOW, damnman, I guess I only believe in God when my arse is on the line…that is so confusing to me (but it is the truth when considering the nature of that experience I had). I have little doubt (as I mentioned the cave man thing) it is survival emotions coupled with personal memory linked to an evolutionary advantage to reconcile and survive through difficult situations.
Dang server &darned it all cell phone. Bbl
I see you still haven’t looked up how the Null Hypothesis and Occam’s Razor work. Its impossible to establish with any degree of certainty that someone didn’t exist; that’s why non-existence is the starting point, and you go from there trying to establish whether there’s enough evidence to be able to say that someone did exist. And it doesn’t look like anywhere enough evidence exists to claim that a historical Jesus existed. He might have, but we have no evidence for it.
I find it strange that you think reality only matters in terms of whether it’s significant to some argument you’re making.
Uh, Jadehawk @73 the first quote I was referring to the original post mentioning how having heard Jesus might not of existed started the domino effect for her. I basically was asking for confirmation on that idea. Posts 45, 52, 55 & 59 were helpful with some content. I also never tried to proclaim Jesus existed or did not. I mentioned that I thought it would be irrelevant @49 because the mythical version of Jesus is obviously false but still believed what would it matter to a practice shrouded in lies if the man existed or not. John mentioned the Creed these people have.
Iam not sure what argument iam making in regards to the last quote you chose. Jesus as portrayed in the bible is a myth/fake/lie. I do not understand your last sentence. My argument was “what does it matter if he existed or not?” I think post 59 explains how I feel about it…it would be just another lie, it ain’t gonna stop them. If anything my argument is that Religion is powerful & rampant & willing to lie or cover up anything to keep the power and the money rolling in, whether Jesus existed or not. Please though, Iam working my biggest muscle (my brain, if u can believe that) so if I have missed your line of reasoning I would love to take a crack at the dumbed down version.
Sincerely
I thought it was interesting that Occams Razor is a law :)
Ok, wait Jade…I might understand the first part.
Because I worded it backwards…I should have said “are historians 80-90% sure he existed” (using occams razor this would be more correct than asking “are historians 100% sure the man did not exist” because the 80-90% presumes less than the 100% statement???
Ok, iam going to rest now. Things are getting confusing. Iam still not sure if you read the quotes wrong ¬ sure what Null Hypothesis has to do with whether Jesus existed or not but iam tryin.
Ok, you actually stated the first part of the Null Hypothesis, the default of non-existence in the absence of evidence??? However, if that is true (my understanding of part of your comment) I was still only asking for info on whether he existed or not, & then saying it would not matter to creationist.
Iam a little confused
Ok, still thinking Jadehawk.
To ask the question “did Jesus exist as a man” I need to change the % of probabilty that he existed (based on historical record ) to significantly less than 50% to provide for the default of non-existence or do away with the inaccurate % all together????
Ok, so maybe this would of been a better question
“Which is less presumptious, that Jesus existed or did not exist?”
Am I getting anywhere slowly? I need rest.
Also, why would Paul write about Jesus? He was writing theological letters to his congregation, not a history book.
Some of the theology he was writing arguably touched on matters that Jesus had spoken of, or had experienced (going by the various Gospels). Paul cited scripture in order to support some of his theological claims — should he not also have cited Jesus’s words in those situations, emphasizing that they were spoken by Jesus, if he had known that Jesus had existed and spoken those words?
Trying to decide if you are describing his referencing of Judiac scripture. Paul wrote the 1st books of the New testament in a time before the gospels were written. Chronology: Galatians>Corinthians>Romans etc. Mark (the oldest) appeared after the death of Paul.
Just a few points before I finish for the evening.
First, I agree, but it was not necessary for Paul to do so. The myther argument above is that Paul would have mentioned something.
Secondly, Paul occasionally does paraphrase the Jesus as found in the gospels; on the divorce issue for example. So although he is not quoting Jesus, he does appear to be referencing the alleged teachings of Jesus. I have a few more examples somewhere (with book and passage numbers), but it is beer time. ;)
And finally, I did not want to point out the error in the point Alethea raised as I did not want to derail an interesting thread.
I am far from convinced by the assertion that Paul never implies that Jesus was a real person. In one of the letters generally considered to have really been written by him, St. Paul claims to have met one of Jesus’s brothers:
“Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter, and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles — only James, the Lord’s brother. (Now in what I am writing to you, I assure you before God that I am not lying.)” [Galatians 1:18-20]
Though I suppose it is possible that this James (the NT abounds in men called James/Jacob) was the ‘the Lord’s brother’ only in the metaphorical sense that every male Christian was ‘the Lord’s brother’, the context of the phrase doesn’t lend itself to this reading IMO. Paul is laying out his apostolic credentials, and seems in some agitation that people think he might be fibbing about who he knows . It seems to me to be a pretty unambiguous statement that Paul thought Jesus was a real person – a person he hadn’t met in life.
Yes, just that.
Beanoglobin@82,
Seems like a good point to me. Anyone know what the mythicists say about it?
But that’s just the point — if he’s referencing the teachings of Jesus, why does he not specify Jesus as the source of those teachings?
I think I may have seen these elsewhere, but go ahead.
======
I seem to recall that there was supposed to be another explanation for that phrase, but I cannot recall what it was at the moment.
Earl Doherty’s Jesus: Neither God nor Man, pg 60:
There’s more, of course. Let me see if I can summarize rather than copypasting.
Doherty argues that:
(1) The term used for “brother” is far more often used in the “voluntary fraternal organization” sense, and this makes sense in Galatians 1:19 as well.
(2) Some suggest that James was the head of the sect, and so received special reference (the brother of the Lord)
(3) The earliest text containing the article ton dates from a manuscript 2 centuries after the putative original, and may well have been introduced by a copyist.
(4) There is no particular reason to infer that in the Greek of that era, the article implied any special emphasis anyway.
(5) The phrase “the brother of the lord” may have been added by a later scribe, and thus intending brotherhood, but doing so as a later gloss or interpolation based on the gospels, not from firsthand knowledge of an actual relationship.
(5) Note that neither the works of James nor Jude mention actual blood relationship to Jesus, lending weight to the interpretation that a putative fraternal relationship was metaphorical/figurative.
Owlmirror
Thanks for this. I have now read the Earl Doherty argument and a few other bits and pieces on his site.
According to Doherty, James is only metaphorically ‘the brother of the Lord’. Other Christians are generally ‘a brother in the Lord’, which is clearly not sibship, but the switch between the two could be accomplished by a copyist’s error. It’s interesting that it’s immediately followed by a bald claim of truthfulness, as if acquaintance with James is a strong card (as well as with Peter, who supposedly was Jesus’s choice as leader of the apostles – if no actual Jesus appeared apart from in visions, meeting Peter is not such an impressive claim). I can’t see how it can be settled either way. Paul could be a deliberate charlatan, but we are assuming that he was sincere (and existed!), that he really did go and visit these real people and would have qualms about swearing to falsehoods ‘in God’s name’.
It struck me that we lack a list of features that would make a man sufficiently like the NT Jesus to conclude that he was the historical person. On his website, Earl Doherty gives one very undemanding list: ‘Jesus was a man who lived and preached in Palestine during the early first century, who gave rise to a faith movement centered upon himself’, and one much more demanding one: ‘a man who had recently walked the sands of Palestine, taught and prophecied and performed miracles, a man executed by Pontius Pilate on Good Friday outside Jerusalem, to rise from a nearby tomb on Easter Sunday morning.’ The circumstantial case that Paul didn’t believe that the detailed NT Jesus existed is strong – despite having numerous opportunities to do so, he mentions no miraculous Jesus characteristics apart from rising from the dead.
But the case that Paul believed Jesus to be a spiritual entity, who had never been human at all? That looks shakier to me, but perhaps that’s because my historical-Jesus pass criteria are low. I certainly don’t require that any historical Jesus-figure claimed to have been born of a virgin, to be born in Bethlehem, to be a descendant of David, to have a thing to do with Nazareth or carpenters, to take away sins, to save the whole world, or that he suggested that he could perform miracles or even used conjuring skills to make them happen. I don’t even require that he claimed to be the Messiah, or was crucified. Only that he had holy-man status in the eyes of some, that he claimed to have been sent by God, and preached about leading a pure life to obtain resurrection, which is the most distinctive feature of the early Christian faith – the aspect that all its contemporaries considered truly weird, and that AFAIK is associated with a few unusual Jewish sects, not Greek mysticism.
I’m interested in what constitutes other peoples’ ‘close enough’.
Saul of Tarsus was the August Derleth of Christianity.
@HeatherV – We’ve all gotten caught singing into the hairbrush in front of the mirror or in the shower or on video. Don’t be embarrassed, revel in the moment :)
Re – reverting to theism on the birth of a child. Why? If you’re a reason-based atheist and you know that Gods have been invented by man to try and explain the world around them, returning to the notion of a God is silly. I am fortunate enough to have had two children with my wife. When we had them, it was an amazing experience. But I didn’t attribute it to some foreign entity. It was something that my wife and I had done together. (Ok, admittedly, she did more work than I did :)
Each day I am in awe that two amazing bundles of giggles came from the two of us, but come from the two of us, they definitely did. They share so many of our characteristics. From how they look, to how they think, the evidence is overwhelming.
When I was a boy, I believed in God, because that’s what my parents and grandparents taught me. As I grew older, I began to realize that some of them were just going through the motions and the cultural and historical reasons behind the adoption of Christianity in western civilization. I am so thankful that I live in an age and a society where I don’t have conform to a stultifying mindset in order to avoid persecution.
But do I thank God? No more than I thank Zeus or Athena or Ra. Thanking god cheapens the efforts and sacrifices of those who came before us to earn us our religious freedom from tyrants.
Thanking god for our food diminishes the work done by those on the farm growing/raising our food, those who transported it to market, those who sold it and those who prepared it.
Welcome back to the light, Heather.
On divorce, it is more likely that Paul is paraphrasing Malachi 2:16, not Jesus. The citation is close to exact, Paul’s use of kuriou (“Lord”) is not consistent so it’s hard in many instances to say for sure whether he’s talking about God or Jesus, and, most importantly, out of all the controversies and theological arguments Paul addresses, the only one on which he appeals to the teachings of the resurrected messiah is divorce? If anything, it highlights the lack of interest Paul shows in any miracle working, exorcising, or teaching his founder-figure is supposed to have done, and that is puzzling without doubt.
Nothing in Paul is unambiguous. The very idea of meeting Jesus, or that anyone else did or could have done such a thing, is nowhere in view in Galatians 1. If anything, Paul is claiming to have met and consulted with fewer of the apostles who preceded him than he is apparently being accused of. His argument is that his gospel was given to him by divine revelation, and that while he may have met with Cephas and James out of necessity, it was not from them or any other man that he received what he has passed on to the Galatian Christians who are now apparently being proselytized by some other proto-Christian apostle.