Gentlemen, the webcomic Girls with Slingshots has been giving lessons in proper dating protocol. You might want to follow along. Start here and work your way forward. Here’s the latest:
It’s rather clearly written for the obtuse nebbishes who whine about how they can’t know what a woman wants unless they proposition her.
Appropriate comic considering some of the recent comments.
Gah, romantic comedies are the bane of my existence. (Well, sort of.)
The other thing behind this is the belief that the only way to go out with a woman is to proposition her as soon as he meets her and to keep propositioning until she says yes.
I’ve been married for 21 years and I still don’t know what women want. Actually, I think I know less now than I did 21 years ago.
I love ‘Girls with Slingshots’! It’s fun.
Scott@34
Perhaps if you stopped thinking at all women want the same thing you’d make some progress. We’re individuals, we want different things.
Right now, I want more caffeine.
What women want: Emotional, physical, and financial security for themselves and their (potential) children; an equal role in the partnership; ample opportunity for developing their personal interests and abilities.
Well, usually people (specially women) aren’t extacly straightforward in these matters. Usually when a woman says “no” she means “maybe”. So you never know if she is in the 10% that speaks her mind or in the 90% that likes to play hard to get.
Part of the blame is on our patriarchal society that determines that women have to be prudes. So, they really want to say yes but end up saying no. Except when they really mean no. The problem is knowing the difference.
This is “What works” for many young white American males most of the time in most aspects of their lives. It works at home with mom, it works a little to well at school, they expect it to work and it often gets them out of trouble in the workplace, if it works for them to manipulate authority in many situations with no perceived consequences, then of course on they feel genuinely entitled to results in dating.
I employ a number of college age young men each season in my business. A reveiw of peronnel records indicates 80% fired over last 5 years for inability to follow instructions. Interestingly,in cases where I care enough about the individual to investigate exactly what is going wrong, IF they listened well enough to an instruction to at least recall the correct details, they Re-Think the details in rationalized evolving steps until their interpretation is exactly the outcome they wanted in the first place and the one they then acot on, even when this is the exact opposite of the original instruction.
When they face the rare and genuinely surprising consequences for this, they seem quite sincerely to believe that this is the fault of coworkers or the person in authority and again present rational if not logical rhetoric to that effect.
The root of this problem is deeper than dating. It starts at home in a child’s relationship with his parents and is reinforced and seldom challenged outright in society until someone takes enough personal interest to address it, which apparently is often an offended female in a dating situation.
Same here. Don’t understand women at all. haha
But, and perhaps this illustrate the above statement,… doesn’t #3 undermine #4?
And who supports the “romantic comedy” industry more? There’s a reason they’re called “chick flicks.”
All in all, I think the lesson is that you should treat everyone with respect, be honest, don’t play games, while recognizing humans don’t operate according to logic or mathematic predictability.
Oh, and if the comic ever suggest women prefer “bad boys” to “nice guys” it’s lost all credibility as anything other than a comic. (Yes, I know most female Pharyngulites probably prefer nerds, and but for that, we of the Homo Nerdis species would have gone extinct millenia ago!)
I don’t think the third and fourth comic contradict at all. One’s saying listen to no in body language form and the other is saying listen to know in verbal form. Seems straightforward enough to me. Except reading body language is hard, but that’s my problem.
Statement: “I don’t understand women”
Translation: “What? You expect me to talk to the bitch?”
Speculate, assume, but whatever you do – DEAR GOD DON’T ASK HER!!!!!
You can generally figure out what anyone wants but making sure helps. Just remember that yes/maybe/no are the sane responses and maybe is often “no but polite”. The unfortunate problem is that we do live in a society where men are expected to do this so women are relegated to implication and possibly suggestive eyebrow waggling. Life indeed would be a lot simpler if people just came out and said things.
Which is why I prefer the blunt hammer approach. “I think you are kind of awesome/cute/funny/other superlative, do you fancy dinner/lunch/a drink later?”. You can embellish this with humour but frankly the core message should be the same. Basically you either get a yes, or you get a no. If it’s a no then carry on with your life as if nothing has happened. If it’s a yes then you are allowed a high five from a friend of choice and maybe a fist pump. If she says maybe it may mean no but she is trying to not hurt your feelings right now. So the best option is to give her your phone number and assume she said no. This way if she genuinely meant “maybe” you will be extremely pleasantly surprised. This will lead to dates, which may eventually lead to sex through a series of pleasant milestones. May being the operative word.
And yes, Romantic Comedies are terrible. Mainly because a lot of people think they are romantic! I live in India. Everything here is a romance! If I wish to watch a political thriller you will be damned sure the intrepid reporter will have a song and dance number with either some vapid cardboard cut out woman or some allegedly spunky feminist who learns the value of love.
When I am king, Adam Sandler will be first against the wall along with anyone who thinks women will fall for you through perseverance.
You say perseverance, I say stalking!
That’s right guys, ladeez r hard!
*Sigh* If you’ve been married to someone for 21 years and you can’t figure out what she* wants, you should seriously re-evaluate your relationship. You’re doin’ it wrong.
*It can’t be said enough: woman are not some sort of monolithic body. Why can’t you just treat us like individuals?
illuminata @ 12
I’ll just leave this here for you.
I haven’t been on the dating scenes in many years (well, a couple of decades actually), but I don’t see #3 and #4 conflicting. #3 is simply the fun of women not always coming out and saying things directly (my wife still does this). #4 is simply the situation where the woman has clearly said something, and the man isn’t paying attention / isn’t listening (which my wife actually does a bit more often than I do…go figure).
Good series so far.
Why wouldn’t you just assume “no” means “no”? If they genuinely mean it, backing off is the right thing to do. If they don’t mean it, do you really want to get involved with someone who refuses to communicate clearly?
@Xisto in #8:
No, it’s no problem at all. Simply assume she actually meant “no”. If she meant “maybe”, she’ll let you know.
That is not true. It’s a common trope, but it’s not true. There might as well exist women who are taught by the patriarchy that they should be polite and timid and deny their own desires. That does not mean that you should go guessing what they really mean, and act according to your own interpretaion instead of what they said. I know you have pulled that percentage out of your ass, so I’m not even going to ask where you got the numbers. Your arguments sounds like a bullshit excuse for not listening to women because poor things can’t express themselves honestly, so you shoud do it for them.
Sorry for any spelling mistakes. I have no spellchecker on my work laptop.
Beatrice:
Which sounds creepy and dangerous, IMO.
Wow. Only eight comments and already we have the first one which parrots rape-apologist-speak. When a human being says yes or no, I assume they mean what they say and act accordingly. Pre-Wife, I once asked up to a young woman in a a student lounge, asked if she minded if I joined her and, when she said yes, I said, okay, enjoy the day, and went my merry way. No means no. What part of this is so fucking hard to understand?
Audley,
Definitely. It’s not dificult one taking those interpretations further and going from no means maybe to no means yes or in a marginally more benign example applying coercion until no (supposedly a veiled maybe) becomes a yes.
OH GOOD GRIEF.
I lost a couple of words there:
…it’s not dificult to imagine one taking those interpretations further…
Usually when a woman says “no” she means “maybe”.
Or maybe she changed her mind after thinking about it for a while. I’ll admit that I’ve done that a couple of times when I was younger. I’ve found the most effective way to clarify this situation is to say, “I’ve changed my mind. I do want to sleep with you. You still into it?” If you’ve got strong reason* to believe that a woman you’ve asked out and said no has changed her mind, you could say, “Pardon me, but I can’t help but notice that you seem to be flirting with me. Have you changed your mind about going out?” If she says no then, give up for life or until she initiates the conversation again. (Caution: Woman are individuals and other women may think my advice utterly crappy.)
*External reason. Not just your ego or belief that “90%” of women mean yes when they say no. Actual, identifiable evidence of interest.
I’m not sure about “no” meaning “maybe,” but why doesn’t anyone assume that a “yes” is sarcastic.
Romantic comedies and Ann Landers’s “How we met” stories.
As for “playing hard to get” in college one of my classmates freely admitted that she says “no” to anyone asking her out for the first time because if they were REALLY interested in her, they wouldn’t give up so easily. I agree that “no means no” and I’ve always taken it as such but shouldn’t ignore the existence of those (in both sexes) that think “no means try harder”.
Another thought on the “says no when means yes” meme: A woman who says no when she means yes and is told, “Ok, sorry to have bothered you” and not asked again will come away thinking “Dang, missed opportunity! Next time I won’t be such a wimp about it.” and be more likely to say yes if she means yes next time. So men who pursue are, in the very best case scenario, enabling the behavior they claim that they don’t like, i.e. the ambiguous signals. Take women-people-at their word and you’re more likely to get direct, open communication than if you play games.
Scratch that I’m sure that no doesn’t mean maybe. They’re different words. Based on facebook invites yes means maybe, maybe means no, and no never ever means maybe.
I find this kind of thing (when supposedly strong, independent women try to ‘tell it like it is’ to clueless guys about relationships, sex, etc) very interesting.
I think that most guys who would even encounter this kind of comic or similar examples of what I referenced above probably have very little luck with women, and I think that includes most male readers of this and similar websites.
It’s fascinating to me to see how many men respond to posts like these by essentially saying “hell yeah you tell im girl!” or “man we men are so clueless!” I can’t help but feel that these types or responses are either disingenuous attempts to ingratiate themselves to the only females they feel they have a shot with (those in the weird cyber-atheist community), or desperate expressions of virginal self-loathing.
I feel for these guys, but I don’t see how comics like this help them. If anything this gives them an excuse to remain in the clueless, woman-fearing (and by that I do not mean woman-respecting. Respect for other humans, male and female, is a fundamental value, I think.) haze that they’ve been in since puberty. Why don’t they have girlfriends? “Well,” they’ll say, “I tried talking to her but she gave me the ‘fuck off’ stare so out or respect I walked away.”
Good luck with all that.
I could be wrong about this, of course. Just my thoughts.
I can’t speak to the dating scene, but communication problems exist in other areas as well. One incident I recall went approximately like this.
Remember: This is not even remotely related to dating.
Warning: Germany here, expect some cultural differences. (For example, no woman I’ve ever mentioned the US “women go to the bathroom together” meme has ever done anything but look completely baffled.)
The woman wanted to tell me about something bad I’d been doing (without realizing it).
She tells me how she’s been hinting.
I explain that I often don’t understand hints, and to please just tell it directly. After all, I can’t change unless I realize there’s a problem!
She does acknowledge how that can be a problem, and proceeds to do explain directly.
The talk continues, and a few minutes later (and in all future talks) she’s hinting again.
Now this particular women is a fairly extreme case in my experience (she’s also deeply into woo), but it seems to me to illustrate that people (and I don’t exclude myself here) have serious trouble adapting their communications, and are often baffled and incredulous, or at least behave as if they don’t quite believe, when they are told their form of communication just doesn’t work for someone else. Surely everyone else is a fairly close variant of themselves – everyone can see that! So they ought to think and talk the same way, too!
Just another example how our brain isn’t really up to requirements without a lot of help.
I rather suspect that those who are talking about no sometimes meaning yes are getting a bit confused.
It is true that during moments of intimacy between two people, one of them may well say something like “no, no, stop it” when they really mean “I am enjoying that, carry on”.
However to think that could possibly lead to any confusion when one of them genuinely means no is ridiculous. There is no way someone who is listening to their partner is going to get confused.
Quite why anyone would bring the possibility of such confusion up puzzles me. I doubt the people can really be as clueless as they appear.
What. The. Fuck.
NO.
Assholes like you who hold rapetastic views like that (especially those of you who ACT ON IT) can kiss my big dyke ass.
Fuck you.
Your psychoanalysis is noted JMB, but why don’t you just say what you just say what you really mean.
You don’t accept a woman’s answer if it goes against your will.
Alverant,
Yeah, but there is trying harder and there is trying harder. I don’t know your friend, but I would guess she didn’t wish for someone to bother and harass her, but try to know her better, keep in contact and at some point aske her out again. If I’m terriblly wrong, feel free to correct me. It also comes back to non-verbal communication, how she acted towards that person at the time and later.
I’m sorry for the grammatical travesty that I just formulated.
Alright, let me lay this out. Man approaches a woman he doesn’t know well. He hits on her.
She has three options: (1) say “no” and run the risk of being the bitch; (2) say “yes” and run the risk of being the slut; or (3) say “maybe” and give him a cold shoulder (if she’s not interested) or flirt (if she’s interested) and hope he catches her drift.
Of course, if she catches a creepy vibe from him, if he seems pushy, if she’s feeling uncomfortable, if, if, if *cough*elevator*cough* she has to deal with the worry that he’s the sort that will (to borrow that execrable line) think that “no means yes and yes means anal” and just take what he wants anyway. Many women will give a man what he wants so that he doesn’t take more than she can give.
Of course, he’s also Schrodinger’s rapist. Because he always is.
Shitface, thy name is rape culture.
#30, Why don’t they have girlfriends? “Well,” they’ll say, “I tried talking to her but she gave me the ‘fuck off’ stare so out or respect I walked away.”
So you don’t stop bothering people until they punch you in the nose?
Khantron,
What makes you think I accept a man’s answer if it goes against my will either?
Success in the world (the real one not the pretend one we create on internet forums) requires both cooperation and persuasion.
Part of being a socially/sexually/economically successful person is striking a productive balance between the two.
Women are from Venus, and Men are Wrong.
That’s a joke, of course.
There are just as many screwed up women and game players as there are among men. Don’t give me shit about automatically labeling men as mysogynistic, and women always being clear yet misunderstood.
I, of all people, desist and err on the side of caution, etc. Like was stated above, if you are having trouble, or getting mixed messages, who needs that shit. If you are clicking, it will be clear and easy to tell what’s going on. If you are worrying about roles and responsibilities for making the first move, then you don’t get it – and you are aiming for a prize and not a person.
Usually, if I don’t make the ‘appropriate’ move, she will. It is all about respect, and caring, and subtle flattery, and a million things, or sometimes one or two things, but always paying a little damned attention to each other.
But I never go out to just get laid. I’ve even felt insulted or belittled by aggressive women at times.
There is never any excuse for a man to make a woman uncomfortable, because we are physically threatening, and there are monsters around, and how do you tell?
If you need the guidelines spelled out in black and white, time to grow up. The guidelines are developing, so pay attention.
Fuck, am I glad I’m not 22 any more, though!
Healthy people have healthy boundaries, and that almost always translates to feeling comfortable with others. (Not sure I really added anything of consequence here!)
I’d rather remember that women usually try to be polite about refusals, so:
* “No” means “Hell, NO!”
* “Maybe” means “No”.
* “Yes” means “Ok, but I know I’ll regret it in the morning”.
* An enthusiastic “Yes” followed by a kiss: That’s the only “yes” that COULD mean “Yes”.
I know, you would probably miss a clue or two, but I think that’s better that being considered a rape apologist.
jose,
That would be a rather extreme response to being asked out. But yes, if someone hit me in the nose I would probably stop bothering them, and I might also call the police.
“probably”?
lol xD
So what would it take normally for you to stop bothering people who don’t want to talk to you?
It is not difficult. Dating is a Darwinian process; don’t take it personal. Just keep asking DIFFERENT people until one clicks with you. If you receive even the slightest negative feedback, including anger at a polite advance, move on. There are many, many, people out there and there is no time to linger in negativity.
It is possible that a person is ambiguous about his/her feelings. My advice is not to put up with it. Anything but firm positive feedback should be reason to move on.
Solved!
FALSE. Some people are incompatible with anybody. Or at least could take them years to find anyone even remotely compatible.
As a people whose typical period between relationships is measured in half-decades, I can attest this is so.
Read “as a person” instead of what I wrote. English is not my first language, I think that’s obvious :-\
Does no one think attempts at paradigm shifting, in which men are doing dubiously ‘bad’ things in a non-threatening unintentional way, is not risking undermining arguments against genuinely skeezy guys by being tarred with the same ‘they’re just crazy feminists’ brush?
Most young people from normal bar cultures would think trying to socially legislate what a “fuck off look” is, is weird and never going to work, and as a result they’ll be less likely to pay attention to this sort of debate again.
jose,
There’s something implied in my original post that I might not mave made clear enough. I’ll try to explicate.
I’ll use the above comic as an example, since it’s the genisis of this thread. If I were trying to talk to someone (male, female, whatever), I would of course be behaving in a social, polite, engaging manner. If I did that and was actually met with the dreaded ‘fuck you’ stare, I’d probably think that the person was having a very bad day or was just anti-social, and thus probably leave them alone.
I mean that’s a big ‘duh,’ and I think we all agree on that. The problem is that, I’m suggesting, many men who are consuming the message of the comic (and similar messages floating around the net) are so socially and sexually retarded that they can’t tell a ‘fuck you’ stare from a slice a jesus-toast. Therefore they might fall into the trap of using such messages as justification to continue their unhealthy, fearful, loser lives.
Hopefully now if you re-read my original post you’ll get a better feel for my point.
FIFY
Beatrice
Doesn’t this go back to “no doesn’t really mean no” meme? I mean you’re using the same words twice to mean two different things. If we’re going to take words at their face value we can’t have a phrase to mean multiple things.
She wasn’t my friend. I wouldn’t want to be friends with someone with an attitude like that.
The whole “non-verbal” communication thing is irrelevant. I put it on par with wearing a certain kind of clothing. It’s wide open to interpretation and not everyone reads it the same way (or not at all). You can’t use non-verbal communication in court to defend your actions. If a man testified, “Her mouth said no but her eyes said yes.” would you accept that? I wouldn’t.
@JMB:
Or domination.
Deen,
I wouldn’t consider that ‘success.’ I guess some would, but not me.
In general, I think the use of force is an indication of failure, and often constitutes what I would consider ‘evil.’
Maybe I’m wrong.
Also Deen,
I’m equating your use of the word ‘domination’ with my use of the word ‘force.’ I may have misinterpreted your intent. If so, please correct me.
If only it was that simple…
@Alverant
“You can’t use non-verbal communication in court to defend your actions. If a man testified, “Her mouth said no but her eyes said yes.” would you accept that? I wouldn’t.”
Of course you can use NVC in court, it’s evidence in the majority of rape cases. “She was touching him suggestively in the bar all night”, “she walked back to his car”, “he gave her a piggyback ride to such a place”.
All non-verbal, all could be used to illustrate the existence of a level of comfort and trust in the relationship which would make a rape verdict less likely.
They could never use such excuses again once they have in their hands a copy of JMB’s Ultimate Guide to Social/Sexual/Economic Success™, a companion to Human Ape’s How to Get Rich in Twelve Easy Steps™.
In general, I think the use of force is an indication of failure,
Unless you can and will use force, then you’re going to sometimes have to accept answers from men and women that are against your will. The world won’t always go the way you want it to. By saying that you won’t accept any answer not in accordance to your liking you imply that you’re willing to use force to dominate others.
I seem to have missed the memo: when did asking a woman out become such an egregious act? And it’s an incontrovertible fact that some women like persistence while others are definitive upon the first advance. I’m pretty sure that the overwhelming majority of men would desist if told to in no uncertain terms. Has this situation deteriorated in recent times? Is there rising tide of women plagued by men who won’t stop propositioning them irrespective of what they are told? If so, could someone present some evidence for this. If not, why the fuck do these topics come up so often?
Phalacrocorax,
It’s difficult to have a conversation with someone who, upon hearing my opinion, responds: “Well I guess you have all the answers huh??!?!?”
Therefore I don’t have much of a response for you. I think I’ve been pretty clear that I’m open to the possibility that I’m wrong, and that I’m interested in honest discussion and dialog. Feel free to engage. Or not.
@Gareth
They come up because feminists like talking about them and PZ likes linking to feminist stuff. It’s not like it’s on CNN.
Gareth,
I’m wondering the same things.
Welcome to the strange, strange world of internet nerd sub-cultures.
Dianne,
I think, strictly speaking, you’re right.
I should have said that I’m not generally willing to accept answers that go against my will easily – at least not without first genuinely trying to express my own will by means of dialog/persuasion.
One of the reasons they keep coming up is that every time they come up, a bunch a MRAs come in mainsplain it all away.
MANsplain. Dammit, saw the typo right as I clicked the button.
hey feminists, get your juvenile dating game bullshit off my atheism sites
and PZ what is your fascination with the plight of college aged white girls?
@myeck
To rephrase: These topics come up because people keep disagreeing about them.
Which begs the question, have you met the internet?
@JMB:
Well, after your first line, in context, it seemed that “getting what you want” seemed to be the goal of the persuasion here. My point simply was that persuasion isn’t the only method to get what you want in the real world – it all too easily progresses into coercion. Which is preferably used in such a way that there remains some plausible deniability that anything more than persuasion was used.
And no, I’m not just referring to using force. I would also include other forms of coercion in that, like harassment, wearing down the person until they give in, breaking down their confidence, bribing, blackmail, abusing positions of power, etc.
I’m glad to hear you’d at least consider the use of force to get what you want evil, though.
I can explain why this comes up so often.
Read comment #8.
Then read the women who respond to that.
IT’S BECAUSE SOME OF THE NERDS WHO READ MY BLOG STILL DON’T GET IT.
Women are not any harder to understand than men (all humans are difficult). When they say “no”, it’s because they really do have no interest in you, for any of a potential multitude of reasons. The appropriate response when they say “no”, or I say “no”, is to STOP. Not try harder. Trying harder makes us less likely to be interested in your request.
This isn’t feminist stuff. It’s basic human interactions. Some people don’t get it because they’re bad at those things — it only becomes a feminist issue because the ignorant nerds most desperately want to interact with women, and make them the targets of their clumsy interactions most often.
@65: Dude, it’s not your site. Feel free to go elsewhere. Or even ignore the threads that concern feminism. The very fact that you don’t do either of those suggests that you’re interested. So stop whining and either contribute or go away.
I’m currently going out with this girl. First time I asked her out, she said “no”. I didn’t insist and thought I would forever be in the “Friend zone”. But one day, she just kissed me.
When I asked her why she had refused to go out with me at first, she said: “It’s because you hadn’t tried hard enough”.
So yeah…
“many men who are consuming the message of the comic (and similar messages floating around the net) are so socially and sexually retarded that they can’t tell a ‘fuck you’ stare from a slice a jesus-toast.”
I’m sorry, what? What’s “a slice a jesus-toast”? I think your clarification made your point harder to understand, not easier.
—
In general, I think maybe this “asking her out” business is an American thing. All my girlfriends have been my friends first. The way it’s done over here is you go out with your friends and you meet other people because your friends bring their own friends along and you bring yours, so everyone meets new people. Different groups of people merge and split, and eventually you find someone you like, and it’s almost always your friend’s friend or cousin, something like that. So you make friends first, and then when you know each other, the thing just flows naturally because both already know what each other is like.
You guys make dating sound like a formal meeting, like you’re going to spend the evening alone with someone you barely know.
@debaser71:
You’re not required to read these posts, you know. If you’re not interested in them, you can just skip them.
That’s probably the safest assumption in most contexts, dating or otherwise.
I think I pissed off a couple girls in high school by taking their ‘no’ signals seriously. One of them I’m sure about. It was pretty clear it was a game, and it was done in a rather juvenile way, which just further indicated to me that I shouldn’t bother. The other, I really don’t know if she actually was interested but just involving her friends in the game of “hard to get”, or if her friends were just playing a prank on her by trying to convince a guy she didn’t like that she really did. And that’s part of my problem with the whole thing.
I decided long ago that I wouldn’t participate in the “hard to get” game. It’s a stupid and dangerous game. I took ‘no’ for an answer (one verbal, and the other less so), and I have no regrets.
My wife is a different story. I did actually ask her out several times. But the difference is that she was not a stranger but a good friend (a rather new good friend at the time, but still), and it was part of an on-going conversation about whether we would or would not be good together. I didn’t badger. When she’d say no, I’d leave it alone until it seemed like maybe she was reconsidering, then I’d bring up the subject and we’d discuss it again. The process took a couple weeks. Eventually she decided to give it a try.
To some it may seem that I’m being inconsistent, but I’m not. The first two did not ever speak to me on friendly terms after I accepted their ‘no’. My wife, however, continued to be a close friend, and the conversation continued because there was something there, she was just unsure about it and so we agreed to discuss it until we figured it out.
Silly PZ, we all know there aren’t any women on Pharyngula.
debaser71, how come you NEVER have anything to say except for on the feminist threads, you spineless douchecake?
Like you’ve got fuckall to say about atheism OR feminism.
Just a thought on the other perspective. Several of the women I have dated later told me that they thought I was either gay, or not attracted to them, because I had initially not picked up on what they thought were clear signals that they were interested
@Achess in #70: what do you mean to illustrate by that anecdote? That you should be allowed to ignore her “no”, or that it’s better to accept her “no”, because if she’s truly interested anyway she’ll let you know?
These threads are all the fucker trolls for. He’s just a useless piece of shit.
Deen,
I pretty much agree with you, all of the forms of ‘getting what one wants’ that you list are, in my opinion, wrong.
The key is to develop desires (‘wants’) that are negated by the presence of such forms of persuasion/coercion.
I DO NOT want to engage in them, thus the avoidance of such behaviors becomes part of my end goal.
Achess:
No one is saying that some women don’t buy into the “play hard to get” bullshit as well. If you want to be a respectful person, take a “no” at face value, otherwise you very well might be imposing your will on another person.
And that’s just not cool.
Can I mention how much I hate the “friend-zone” crapola? It’s basically saying that you can’t be friends with a woman unless you’re interested in getting into her pants. At the very least it’s desperate and creepy.
And then when it doesn’t work out they spend the rest of their lives calling women bitches and cunts with every breath.
jose,
Go to cooltoast[dot]com
:-)
If I stopped at every ‘no’ I wouldn’t be happily invested in a non monogamous relationship.
/beinganidiot.
I love this comic! Valuable reading for some of the MRAs I associate with.
“how come you NEVER have anything to say except for on the feminist threads, you spineless douchecake?
Like you’ve got fuckall to say about atheism OR feminism”
last time i tried commenting about atheism i was called a liar…and the first time i talked about feminism i was told to put a porcupine or something like that in my butt…classy place, keep it up
There’s another pernicious meme that’s apparent in these dating threads, and forgive me if it’s already been brought up, but it’s the one in which women are assumed to understand the dating game inside and out, and men are clueless contestants who have to figure it out.
Everybody has to figure it out, and not everyone is going to do so in the same way, at the same speed, and indeed in some cases, at all.
The idea that women somehow know how it’s to be played and that men have to figure out the right sequence of moves and words makes women into curmudgeonly gatekeepers to be bypassed somehow. When a girl sends mixed signals, she’s ‘playing games’, rather than simply confused or unsure. Ditto if she changes her mind.
This puts every action of the women in the category of intentional malice, rather than an unintentional mistake, and some people just don’t deal well when they percieve someone as acting malicious towards them.
“Many women will give a man what he wants so that he doesn’t take more than she can give.
Of course, he’s also Schrodinger’s rapist. Because he always is.
Shitface, thy name is rape culture.”
Esteleth…
Every relationship is based on trust, if your first attitude to men is “Schrodinger’s Rapist” then it’s perfectly acceptable to assume “Schrodinger’s Anna Nicole Smith” or “Schrodinger’s Lorena Bobbit” because every person is a potential horrid person/crazy and you wouldn’t know until all your electronics have been sold for amphetamines/you are attempting to find out if a locksmith can replace your locks at 3 AM.
You have to realise that this attitude is pretty much toxic. So how do you ask someone out? If you ask her out you are a rapist, if you don’t then you are going to be single for a while and if you keep thinking about it you are some creep who is staring at her.
The issue is that society expects men to make the move. Not women. So your choices are “wait for the few women who to make the move, or have people think of you as schrodinger’s rapist”.
Also I feel that Schrodinger’s Rapist is not a good term to be used, on the basis of I am Schrodinger’s Terrorist and let me tell you that isn’t all that fun nor is that kind of attitude productive. Remember what you think as prudence can be construed as bias or paranoia.
@loki NVC can be interpreted different ways. What’s suggestive to one person may not be to someone else. The word “no” OTOH is understood by billions of people without debate. Which one counts the most in a court of law?
http://www.girlswithslingshots.com/comic/gws-1256/
So the artist themself agrees that it’s not as simple as just asking someone what they think – you have to interpret their words in the light of other cues. If you think this is not true of yourself, then either you’re strongly autistic, or more likely you’re simply wrong – ask your friends :-) Men do this just as much as women of course, but typically in different areas of interaction (e.g. ask a man to do the laundry…). Black-and-white arguments are absurd here – human interaction is far more complex than mere language, especially when romance is involved, which is one reason that internet forums are such a fantastic mechanism for causing unintentional offense.
The artist also correctly points out that our communication mechanisms are shaped by media, and like it or not that includes romcoms. Again, that is as true of women (this comic) as for men (the “persistence is a virtue” trope).
@Avicenna
I’ll get the popped corn.
Shut. Up. Numpties!
Special One is, of course, fantastic and has never heard this “no” you speak of, but Special One could take it. Special Woman might think Special One is a monomaniac or a toe-rag. Very nice! Special One respects strong opinions. Hit me with your best shot Special Ladies! You’ll find out that if there was championship of taking no for an answer Special One would finish probably first.
Now, Be Champions!
Why the hell would you associate with a MRA?
PZ, that’s a really crap and self-contradictory argument. You state that people in general are hard to understand and then in the very next sentences offer a terribly simplistic (and completely incorrect) explanation of behaviour. Which is it, are the actions of people hard to understand or does no simply and always mean no? Also, your argument is weak by lacking an empirical basis. Yes, no doubt some of the people (why is it necessary to disparage some of those who read your blog by calling them nerds?) will fail to appreciate your points. Nonetheless, why is this such an important issue that it gets discussed so often. As i said in a previous comment, is this issue becoming worse? Are women getting pestered by men more often or in more extreme ways? If you believe that to be true, why do you do you believe it to be true? The responses of a few of your readers would seem like an insufficient basis for those beliefs.
@PZ
“Women are not any harder to understand than men (all humans are difficult). When they say “no”, it’s because they really do have no interest in you, for any of a potential multitude of reasons. The appropriate response when they say “no”, or I say “no”, is to STOP. Not try harder. Trying harder makes us less likely to be interested in your request.”
This is really the gist of the problem. What you’ve said is not true. It’s evidentially and demonstrably false. Many times people of both sexes say no when they mean yes and many times trying harder with girls works *and* makes them more interested. If anyone disagrees that these statements are not even occasionally true, then they are trolling or mental.
Presumably what you really mean to say is that, in order to avoid even the slightest possibility of anything rapey happening, we should *act* as if what you say is always 100% true. That’s still a dubious assertion, but at least it’s getting the debate in the right place.
So, you’re what? Crying?
If your head is that empty, feel free to fill it with something. I suggest the bumper of a moving truck, but don’t feel you have to stick to my suggestion: be creative.
I have no idea why conservatives and fucking morons like you say this kind of shit. I’m supposed to be ashamed because someone who’s less intelligent than the bacteria living on my taint considers my behaviour unfit for tea with the queen? If the greatest concern in your life is whether or not someone is acting ‘classy’, you’ve got nothing to add to any conversation.
The atheist community doesn’t need you, debaser71. And frankly, I doubt anyone else does.
Go be a pathetic, whiny coward elsewhere.
Avicenna, point out where the actions of Anna Nicole Smith and Lorena Bobbit are as common as rape.
@Alverant
The question of whether NVC ever counts in court is different from whether no is the more obvious indicator of belief, which it clearly usually is.
Obviously (again) in sex between two parties, there’s no one else there to witness the no, so if the guy denies it, it’s not compelling evidence in court. Compare this to NVC which may well be observable to many people if it occurred in public.
@Brownian, good point.
if anybody feels like procrastinating, go watch these two videos about a clueless captain of the city guard who wants to date one of the guardsmen and asks you for help.
Oh, my dear JMB, I certainly was not clear in my last comment. I, by no means, wish to imply that you must have all the answers. On the contrary, I was just amused at your use of the expression “socially/sexually/economically successful person”, which sounds awfully like something I’d find on the cover of a self-help book being sold in a bus station. Could you explain what is your amazing criterion of Success™, that can be applied in the social, sexual and economic levels?
Why do I associate with MRAs?
Because, I am a twenty year old in college. In the southwest. From a small town. Working for plastic surgeons. The entitlement is everywhere.
Ever had a sprinkle of chile powder on the popped corn? Maybe even some lime? With all these threads, I have been getting sick of the usual buttered corn. Trying some new stuff out.
Avicenna @ #86
I’ll be the first to say it: You are not getting the point of Schrodinger’s Rapist. I know this from your comparison. Here’s two hints:
1. Probability of X event occurring is not equal between SR and your theoretical SANS and SLB.
2. Privilege. It’s a real thing. It shapes human interactions.
Hi, Avicenna: I’d like to introduce you to a very special friend of mine called Probability.
She’ll tell you why some assumptions are reasonable (“The weather service suggests a 60% chance of rain today—I’d better bring an umbrella to work”) and some are not (“Hey, somebody’s got to win the Powerball; it might as well be me.”)
I grew up in a violent, crime-ridden neighbourhood. A very small but non-zero proportion of people would do you serious harm just for existing, if you didn’t preempt them by acting as if everyone was a potential risk. The attitude that you describe as ‘toxic’ is why I’m still here to yell at people on the internet.
*sigh*
IT IS AN ISSUE BECAUSE IT PERPETUATES A SYSTEM THAT MAKES ONE HALF OF HUMANITY THINGS TO BE USED AND THE OTHER HALF ROBOTS WHO CAN ONLY THINK OF ONE THING.
IT IS TOXIC.
IT HURTS PEOPLE.
IT IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT IS A HUGE FUCKING PROBLEM
Ing’s quick dating advice
A) confidence is the #1 attractant. If you’re unique and cool with your self people are attracted to you
B) for guys: being “cool” means a) confident + b) secure. A cool guy dosent care if he’s turned down because…meh his self woth isn’t based on it. Don’t be bitter don’t be resentful or creepy if turned down but treat the person normally to let them know everything is cool…if they were playing hard to get and are worth it rather than playing games this attitude can defuse concerns about you.
C) not everyone wants you around…you don’t want to be where you’re unwanted
D) maybe=no no=no.
E) friends and lovers are not mutually exclusive
F) no one worth being involved with likes possesiveness or clingyness…you’re looking for someone to be a lover not livestock
G) there 7 billion people…one rejection means nothing.
F) typically all advice from cosmo and sex in the city is heteronormative trash and will harm rather than help
J) you can’t fake confidence or cool….you need not be a rock in all aspects of life but you can’t fake it. Make dating a secondary prioty to career hobbies etc. Be open for opertunities rather than hunt them out.
I am so tired of this, and I think I’m done with it.
I have spent all my sentient life getting into arguments in defence of feminism and women’s rights, and trying to get rock-headed males to understand that in fact we do still live in a grotesquely patriarchal world, and that everywhere you look there are subtle and not-so-subtle pressures applied to women by an innately sexist society. I have vigorously defended women’s abortion rights, contraception rights, workplace rights, and so on. I was married for ten years to a very smart, very feminist woman who seemed to think I was a man who “got it”. Sadly, she left me for another man – presumably one who “got it” even better – but although that broke my stupid heart it in no way changed my attitudes to women or feminism. Women’s rights were as much a part of me as my atheism and opposition to religion.
And yet I am so damned tired of this current brand of… “Men are such klutzes, read our minds, don’t act like that, act like this, oh, didn’t you pick up on my ‘fuck off’ look, you insensitive neanderthal?“… hypersensitive, self-regarding whining that I give up. I give up.
Go for it, women. Whatever you think you need, now. If what you need is to beat up on clumsy, nervous, socially gauche geeks who have the temerity to find you attractive but lack the interpersonal skills to demonstrate it to your complete satisfaction, then I admit it: you’ve left me behind. I’ll stick my hand up before you point the finger: I guess I’m just another privileged white male dinosaur who doesn’t get it. So be it. I’m old, I’m tired, and I live alone now – which is probably my fault – and that’s okay. I can afford good whisky and I’m thinking about getting a cat. That’ll do until it’s time to croak. I wish young women and young men everywhere the very best of luck and a truly wonderful and enlightened future.
brownian, you asked, I answered. Simple. I’m just tired of PZ every few days making another juvenile dating game feminist stuff posts. But in his defense, he is a college professor so his daily relations with people are much different than mine. I rarely interact with college kids. I don’t go to bars, or go club hopping. And I am certainly not ‘hitting on’ anyone (except my wife I guess).
And I am a liberal democrat. Watch your assumptions. Anyway this blog used to be good, funny, and smart… now it’s just feminists blasting anyone who dares challenge their dogma. I am saddened that PZ chose this path.
I seem to have missed the memo: when did asking a woman out become such an egregious act?
Asking out a woman who knows little-or-nothing about you is rude. (Because it implies a lack of standards on her part.) Before you ask a woman out, you’re supposed to let her know something about you and then see if she seems to find you compatible. The usual way to do this is through conversation.
If you can’t find an opening to start a conversation, then you’re supposed to ask a mutual friend to introduce you. If you don’t have any mutual friends, then it might be wiser to see if your friends can introduce you to somebody else instead.
If your friends can’t provide as many introductions as you’d like, then Internet dating sites work pretty well. You only need to exchange one or two e-mails with someone before you invite them to meet for coffee, and meeting over coffee will give you enough time to establish compatibility (or not).
If your friends can’t provide any introductions at all, and you don’t like coffee, then I think you’re doomed to a lifetime of celibacy. Maybe someone else has a suggestion?
Is there rising tide of women plagued by men who won’t stop propositioning them irrespective of what they are told?
I’m not sure whether the tide has been rising or falling…I’d like to think that it’s falling, in part because of the educational work being done on this blog and elsewhere.
But even if it’s falling, I think that we can all help make it fall faster.
Personally I’ve always found it a bit odd that people have to ask other people out. The message to me is always “I want to get you alone but I want to have the pretense of not wanting that, so I’m going to ask you if you want to see a movie. If you say no, I won’t actually go see that movie by myself, because I was only ever interested in sleeping with you to begin with.”
I did that for a while when I was younger, and it always left me a bit bitter. When I met my wife, instead, it was always “I’m going to see a movie; I’d love to have your company.” And we both said “no” once in a while, because we were busy, and because we understood that it wasn’t all a pretense for trying to fuck each other. We actually enjoy each other’s company.
I’ve found a way around this entire situation. After my first and only girlfriend dumped me in college, every so often I worked up the courage to ask another woman out. I was shot down every time. So, I made a fearless personal inventory and decided on the best course of action: I don’t ask women out anymore. Being a fat, ugly, impoverished loser who lives with his father at 36 completely ensures rejection, so why bother asking when the answer is always going to be “no?”
Ok, so I haven’t had anything approaching sex in 14 years, but I’ve been through one break-up and one was enough. Besides, should a freak like me risk an act that could spread the hereditary garbage lingering in my chromosomes to another generation of humans? I like to think of this as voluntary eugenics.
I have tried very hard to remember a single time in my life where I said “no” when I meant “yes”. I draw a complete blank. I can’t even imagine when I would do such a thing.
I think you’ve confused it with situations where people change their minds. That happens all the time. A person might tell you “no” to an initial advance, and then after learning more about you, seeing that you share similar interests, that you’re willing to talk to them, might say “yes”.
I don’t even understand why people have such a hard time comprehending this.
When I asked my future wife-to-be on a date the first time, sure, I came right out and asked her to go to a dance. But I’d known her for some time, had taken classes together, had talked with her at other social events. There was more depth to our casual relationship than that I was some guy who thought she looked hot and wanted to ask her out.
Why do you insist that relationships must begin on a binary yes/no decision?
You mean that dressing up as a woman and hanging out with women, then pretending to be the scion of a wealthy oil family isn’t the way to get a girlfriend? Romantic comedies, why did you lie to me!?
@tomato sand
Dingding!
@debaser. Oh joy one of those self important “I’m a good person thus above it all ” liberals.
Ok, I’ll bite.
I respect women and treat them the same way that I treat anyone else. I don’t “hit on” them, or act creepy / predatory around them. I would never dream of propositioning one in an elevator at 2 am. Like the comic strips recommend, I prefer to talk to women than ask them out on dates, and if I meet with a verbal or non-verbal signal of non-interest, I back off and don’t try to be “persistent”.
One result of this is that I have absolutely no romantic relationships. None whatsoever. I know plenty of women on a platonic level, and that is all. I know that correlation does not equal causation. Maybe I’m just an asshole to everyone and I’m not aware of it. But it’s been this way for me since I was 13.
@chaos-engineer I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, the cartoon in question doesn’t (necessarily) describe a situation in which a women is propositioned by a stranger and so i don’t see how that is relevant. But yes, asking a girl out who you don’t know really implies interest in only one thing and is therefore not something I would do.
Before this goes south (not saying it will, it just might), there’s a thread here worth drawing out.
It’s true that plenty of girls/women do play games from time to time and no doesn’t actually mean ‘no, forever’.
This is probably an offshoot of what is still the tacit ground rules in large slabs of the population: that women sit on the metaphoric walls while men make the approach. That assumption contorts things in complicated ways for everyone.
Thirdly, when was any aspect of our culture ever sequestered from notions of striving, persistence, endurance, stick-to-it-iveness etc etc? Never. The whole thing from day one, particularly for men is that application and effort will get you success. Don’t quit. Never back down. Positivity. Goals. Determination.
These things are almost and end in themselves, even without any tangible benefit. That’s deep in our culture.
You might say that putting women in the pile with athletic achievement et al basically just underlines their objectification in the whole structure. And I’d say absolutely. But the thing is that there’s still enough people of both genders who know no different and actually like it this way (by virtue of knowing no different). It is, I would venture, the dominant structure to this day, for better or worse. It just looks like an enlightened post sexual revolution world, from certain angles. In truth there’s a very long way to go toward anything like deep understanding (and, indeed not a lot of incentive to try and get there so long as this situation mostly works).
So I guess what I’m saying is no one should really be surprised, even if they are annoyed. And also, I don’t think getting mad’s really going to help. Well, maybe a little mad. Just not too much.
Or maybe, I don’t know what I’m talking about. I do know that even when I was a kid I thought “Dating” was some arcane Happy Days bullshit like corsages, Corvairs and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Yet, it stuck around in one form or another. I much preferred “hanging out”, personally.
So, the issues for women is not a part of your liberal democratic ideology. That is good to know.
If you don’t like some of them, there’s plenty more out there. Why waste your time reading and commenting on the few you don’t like?
I think however you get a second proposition attempt if you later get to know the person and meet regularly in casual circumstances.
Me @116
Pasting the URL in the link helps…
No means no
A “oh nonononono” while blushing and shaking your head in a “oh how scandelous I could never do that due to my established social roles…how titilating!” MAY mean maybe.
Seriously is the difference between a “no” and a “no I can’t though I might want to but there’s an emotional or social role holding me back thus I am inviting convincing”. That hard for people to grasp.
Its the difference between ” I could NEVER skydive” and “that looks like fun but *I* could never skydive”
Did I ask any of this? WHAT PART OF ANYTHING I’VE EVER WRITTEN MAKES YOU THINK I GIVE ONE FUCKING LICK ABOUT YOU OR YOUR LIFESTYLE?
Did you notice that ‘conservatives’ and ‘fucking morons’ constituted two items? There’s a reason I did that. I assumed just fucking fine.
So, because it’s no longer solely about the things you care about, you only show up to troll? Think hard about what kind of person that makes you.
How’s it coming on that bumper? Find a busy freeway yet?
I’ve been enjoying this run of GWS so much precisely because it doesn’t overgeneralize or dehumanize one or the other character. If you go back further, you can see that Tucker really was acting like a jerk, but Clarice then decided to pull a semi-good natured practical joke on him. He certainly didn’t like that very much (neither character being perfect, yes?) but it led to conversation, which then led to this series of strips.
We certainly do laugh at Tucker’s expense, but he got to make a point in the last strip and we certainly get the impression that he’s basically decent, if misinformed and overeager. A lesser work would have just made him the butt of a one-note, probably violent “joke” and moved on.
For another good series of comics about a misogynist “nerd” being (mostly) reformed, I recommend Mike’s arc in Something*Positive by Randy Milholland (I’ve had the pleasure of meeting both Corsetto and Milholland, they are terrific people and great artist/writers).
Case in point: Sexism hurts more than just women.
This attitude that relationships begin with Man asking Woman for a date — the ‘romantic comedy’ model — is a killer. It means that lots of men believe that the only angle that works is the most superficial one: the demand that a woman make a snap judgment on what you look and sound like, and if you aren’t dressed right, wearing Axe Body Spray and a nicely gelled haircut, you will get shot down.
You know what? “Fat, ugly, impoverished losers” end up in great romantic relationships all the time! Look at me: featured on Conservapædia as a fatso, not particularly attractive, and living on a small college professor’s salary, and I’ve been hooked up with a fabulous woman for thirty years.
You do it by learning that being interested in and interesting to other people involves a heck of a lot more than rehearsing pick-up lines. Stop looking for shortcuts. Start paying attention to people.
JohannC:
So? No one owes you anything, no matter how much of a nice guy you are.
Think about it this way: You haven’t hurt anyone or pushed anyone into something that they didn’t want to do. There’s value in that, you know?
But not useful to determine if a rape actually occurred, interestingly.
Unless, of course, you are arguing that there is a certain threshold of trust and comfort beyond which consent can never be withdrawn, making rape impossible. I’m assuming you’re not making that argument…?
@Gareth and whoever else is going “What changed?”
-First off, many men make inappropriate approaches that shouldn’t have happened in the first place; i.e. to strangers, in workplaces, to subordinates. This happens often enough that it interferes with women’s lives and their work. (see: Jennifer Ouellette on Chilly Climate)
-Second, many men don’t desist when told no, perhaps as many as half of all men who make approaches. (see: Stephanie Zvan: After You Say “No”) Some of these men just believe no means try harder, some of them are socially clueless, and some are predatory rapists probing a target’s resistance. Around 6-10% of men are undetected predators, so a very significant portion of men who don’t take “no” for an answer are real threats. (see: Predator Redux and also Meet the Predators and Mythcommunication on the same blog.)
-Third, rapey behavior is given cover by the social pressure for men to be active and women passive (see: Greta Christina: Women who date men and companion posts) and the double standard that women who want sex are sluts, but men who want sex are Real Men.
-And most people don’t even realize Enthusiastic Consent exists as a concept, much less that it’s so simple. (see: Zvan: The myth that “Consent is Hard”)
This has been the situation for a long time, certainly generations. What’s changing is awareness that this myth of women being hard to understand and men making innocent mistakes about consent accomplishes nothing but giving cover to rapists. Some 90% of rapes are committed by these repeat predators, who use the excuse that it was just a misunderstanding – and they use that excuse over and over and over again because it works. Men and women both believe it, we’re indoctrinated in it all our lives, and it makes everybody’s lives harder… except the rapists’.
(There’s also the general, cultural “women don’t count” but I hope this is a start on why dating, specifically, is messed up.)
“Why waste your time reading and commenting on the few you don’t like?”
Because I was here for years before PZ started his elevatorgate nonsense. I feel as though one of my favorite blogs have been overrun with foul mouthed, mean spirited, sloppy thinking dogmatists. I feel as though one of my favorite bloggers has gone off the deep end.
Also I value folks who are strong thinkers. And it upsets me to see strong thinkers thinking so darn badly about certain topics.
Feminist theory is bullshit. Supposed critical thinkers should be able to see it’s flaws and short comings. Or at least posters should be allowed to talk about it without 200 pz-hordites piling on to ‘excommunicate’ them.
@debaser
I’m with you. Until semi-recently, I’ve visited this blog almosy daily due to curiosity about scientific news and as an alarm system for what the whacky Christian-right and otherwise anti-science fundies are up to.
Since Rebecca Watson’s experience in an elevator, I’m greeted almost daily with dating advice most people get when they’re in their tweens. And, no offense to the blogger, but it comes across as a creepy, mean-spirited uncle scaring the living shit out of his nephew about how girls will never want to date you because you’re a loser.
I suppose there’s an appropriate audience for this (think Dear Abbey), but what on earth does it have to do with “evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal.”
I haven’t approached anyone in new in a sexual context for nearly four years (ltr mofuggas). Admittedly, this may not be what people are thinking but:
I see some frustration with people:
if I cannot ask them out, how do I get to know them?
Would this be a correct assumption?
Dr Audley very-long-name:
I agree that nobody owes me anything. I don’t expect that I’m entitled to a relationship just by being a nice guy. All I’m saying is that the dating advice given in this comic strip is advice that I’ve been following, with no results, for over ten years.
What is it about feminism that is “bullshit”?
There’s a difficulty with that cartoon: playing hard to get (e.g. saying “no” when what you really mean is “maybe” or “I’ll think about it”) is a recognized and effective strategy in establishing romantic connections.
David Burns, the psychiatrist who has widely publicized cognitive therapy as an effective treatment for depression (see his book Feeling Good) wrote another book, Intimate Connections, wherein he points this out among much other good advice. He’s a good writer, and Intimate Connections includes a lot of personal anecdotes that would be the stuff of comedy.
Coming from an informed source like that, one can’t dismiss offhand the fact that “no” doesn’t always mean “no”.
I have no idea how those whose noes mean no can be distinguished from those with other intentions. But be aware that human nature once again demonstrates its sheer looniness in matters of the heart.
Jesus Christ, somebody better call the WAAAAAAAHmbulance for debaser and jasper. It’s downright criminal that they don’t get what they want out of this blog! Somebody should do something, alert the authorities and whatnot!
I got my Molly in 2007. I don’t know what makes you think you’re entitled to some old-timer’s compensation around here, but you can shut your fucking cakehole and get me a beer right about now.
Jesus Christ; since the invention of the remote this hasn’t even been a good argument for whining about your favourite TV shows jumping the shark, let alone pissing and moaning on the blogosphere.
I actually resent that your lives are so free of pain and difficulty that this is what constitutes a reasonable complaint to you.
“What is it about feminism that is “bullshit”?”
have you ever looked at ‘feminist theory’?
finallyfeminism101
What does this have to do with the skeptical community? Are you fucking kidding me? Rebecca Watson’s original comments were directed at this community. Are you are too obtuse to get that.
The implications there are offensive and insulting.
My interactions with “college kids” is entirely professional: I do not ask them out on dates, and I have no interest in romantic relationships with any of them (they’re young, for one thing — not only aren’t they going to have much in common with me, but they are not in the slightest bit interested in me that way, and mutuality is essential for a healthy relationship — and for another, I’m already in a happy and committed relationship).
I am interested in this subject because I am part of a community here on this blog and in atheism overall where these are important issues. There are people I care about who care about it. And another factor I’ll arrogantly admit: I’m proud to say I’m a big winner in the relationship game, and I’m willing to share my secrets. I’d wish every one of the people here, even the sexist jerks, the happiness I’ve found in a lifelong relationship that wasn’t built on the jerky behavior of the MRAs (who, I think you might notice, are uniformly miserable and full of spite.)
jasper76
Pharyngula is a ‘blog’. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the concept, but basically, it means the ‘blogger’ gets to talk about whatever the fuck they feel like talking about.
If you want to read one of these mysterious ‘blogs’ where everything addresses things you like to talk about, feel free to start one.
Debaser71, say what you fucking mean.
What! Is! It! About! Feminism! Is! Bullshit!
Do not fucking vomit out, it just is.
What’s an MRA? Google suggests Marketing Research Association, Magnetic Resonance Angiography, and Motocycle Racing Association, among others…
@johanC
I’m sure you’re also not rich now and have never robbed a bank? What do you want someone to tell you “oh well fine if it affects you personall go and ignore ethics”. Should we all defraud old ladies because that’s how Wallstreet 1% got their cash? I can tell you right now that from one comment you don’t get dates because you are clingy desperate and insecure. Who would WANT to spend time woth someone like that who veiws treating people right as a huge sacrifice?
@bedaser and othera
Its so fucking obvious you’re lying. I’ve been a reg for 2 years or more nd read archives…elefuckagate was not a start of anything new. This topic is persistant and part of the blog (under the liberal setting)…why don’t you cut the OBVIOUS forcing/gas lighting market push bullcrap? Yhoure just saying Dwhat happened man you USED to be cool”. Pathetic
@Pteryxx Thanks for the links, i’ll read them with interest. Maybe i’m ignorant in this regard. My point was more why at this time this issue seems to get discussed so often. If by these discussions more men will learn how not to act towards women then it’s certainly a worthy topic. In my social circles, I’ve never recognized it to be a serious problem. Nonetheless, I still think that this blog is better devoted to science, atheism and contempt for republicans. However, it’s not my blog and obviously PZ can post whatever he likes.
You know, most of us can make cogent arguments about why even something as patently ridiculous as Intelligent Design is bullshit.
And you think “It just is: look at it and see” is compelling?
You are an exceptionally stupid human being.
Inging:
I don’t “view treating people right as a huge sacrifice”. I treat people right because that is the way I am. I would not like to treat people any other way.
“I don’t know what makes you think you’re entitled to ”
Brownian, I am not entitled to post? If pz or a mod ban me, that’s fine, but until then I think I am entitled to make on topic comments.
feminist theory is bullshit, pz has jumped the shark, and the horde has descended into blathering dogmatists….a great thing for atheism and secularism…yup…
@ Daz and others,
You’re absolutely right. Not my blog, not my choice of topics. No problem with that.
And I’m not trying to troll. Just sad to see an atheist/skeptic blog I really enjoyed transform into a blog about dating advice…
I suppose I should take the common sense approach and just skip these topics.
2johnaC
Gimme a break..reread what you wrote. Its a pitty plea because you’re sacrificing the tail you could get if only you wernt so gosh darn nice.
Look ev3eryone…you should neither want to be with or be an asshole, MRA or hard to geter.
For the people complaining that all I talk about is this feminist “crap”: there are currently 2 other articles posted today, 7 from yesterday, three from the day before, none of which are about feminism. It’s not as if there’s nothing else on this blog. Whining about a particular article and telling me to stop posting this kind of thing is not going to change my mind. If they are greeted with yawning indifference, then I might have second thoughts about posting them (or maybe not — I post stuff I want to, not what you want…but then, you should also be getting the message that I don’t give a damn what you think I should post or not).
Debaser..what do you expect us all to go out and be Charlie Sheens and push women around so that YOU would like us?
Its not dogmatism…we just don’t like you. Leave! You’re literally no loss.
Reminds me of writers on twitter who retweet the people who anounce how they’re unfollowing because of some sort of personal life thing…oh boohoo do you really think your approval means anything? I
You claim to have been reading this blog for years. Yet you think that there are mods?
You are fucking full of shit.
So, all you can say is “feminist theory is bullshit” and cannot point out why. Deep fucking thinker you are.
Fuckface, if you do get banned, (By PZ. There are no fucking mods to do that.) it will be because you are insipid. Not because your are bravely standing up to the big bad horde of feminists who insist on commenting here.
Waste of meat.
JohannC:
Well, that’s a start.
I get frustrated with threads like these not only because the “wah wah wah, I hate feminists!” crowd inevitably shows up*, but there’s always a certain amount of dating advice tossed around, too. I know that most of it is well intentioned, but what I think a lot of people need to learn is that there’s no magic bullet and no guarantees.
As long as you’re not going to slip into the Pick Up Artist type of woman-hating bullshit, I’ve no advice for you.
*::cough:: debaser ::cough::
No, you fucking brain-dead tool, you’re not entitled to a “I was here back when this place was cool” whine.
Like, is there a railway tie embedded in your brain, do you normally get your wife to read to you, or what is the explanation for your incredible idiocy?
Nevermind. You’re just a run-of-the-mill moron, albeit one that’s near superpowered by idiocy. Thanks for contributing.
I hope with every fibre of my being you haven’t managed to pass on your “Uh, duh” genes to any fucking kids.
jasper76
On the top page alone there are ten posts if we include the latest TET. One of those ten concerns this subject. Your criteria for what constitutes ‘turning into a blog about
dating advicetreating women as equals with minds of their own’ would seem to differ somewhat from mine…There is a lot of anger on this blog.
@PZ
Message received loud and clear.
Good luck schooling the sexually frustrated on the finer points of rejection!
Assclam, if that was all this blog was, I would fucking stop reading.
I wish all skeptics like debaser and jasper who insist people are dogmatic because they agree with eachother and not with them would leave the movement. Go. Stop giving money. Stop commenting. Stop. Your absense will better the movement and I bet for each debaser we loose well gain 2 women whoo were disinterested because of the culture such assholes generate
I agree with jasper and debaser one one count: the blog has gotten stupider since PZ started posting about feminism. Not because the quality of his posts has gone down any, but because it’s fucking depressing seeing the misogyny and overall cluelessness present in the Atheist community. It’s almost as bad a train wreck as when PZ posts about libertarians.
Of course, I continue to read and post, because as with all train wrecks, I just can’t look away.
And an other idiot farts out a comment.
(Was that fucking angry enough for you?)
Phala,
I already did. Striking a pro-social balance between cooperation and persuasion. If you think that’s vague, it’s because it is. There’s not a set of rules to follow, but certain principals can help, I think, lead the way to a happy life with good relationships and the accomplishment of personal goals.
Of course, I don’t think you actually give a shit what I think, you’re just here to make jokes.
I have a question for you. Why do you feel the need to engage in conversation with such an obnoxious, mocking tone? I haven’t engaged in that way, why should you?
“I’m proud to say I’m a big winner in the relationship game, and I’m willing to share my secrets. I’d wish every one of the people here, even the sexist jerks, the happiness I’ve found in a lifelong relationship that wasn’t built on the jerky behavior of the MRA”
pz, I am 40 years old, married, with children…highly successful in the relationship game…why do you think people like me need dating advice on how to hook up with females half my age?
And pz, I was not implying YOU hit on your students…I was implying the readers of the blog do these things (club hopping, etc), not you. So what you consider important issues regarding feminism and dating are non-issues to me and my daily interactions with people.
PZ, I think linking atheism and feminism is good (because duh religion hurts women) but I think focusing on dating is tiresome, juvenile, and a non-issue for a lot of your more adult readers. Perhaps, this blog is more geared to young college aged people than it is geared for the general enthusiastic adult atheist.
God, PZ, I’ve had it with your anti-male “feminist” bullshit. I know multiple girls who have stalked guys, “tried harder” when they’ve said no, tried to brush up against guys chests (yes, one of my girl friends told me she does that all the time), etc. This isn’t a uniquely male tendency. It’s just girls don’t talk about how THEY do it as well. It’s also not all girls or all guys.
*head-desk*
Thus proving the need for such posts as this.
No means no is not a ‘fine point’.
Ing:
Damn you auto-correct?
Not to mention how much we’ll save at cons by not having to have so many interpreters for the thinking impaired.
There’s a difficulty with that cartoon: playing hard to get (e.g. saying “no” when what you really mean is “maybe” or “I’ll think about it”) is a recognized and effective strategy in establishing romantic connections.
just because it’s recognized, doesn’t mean it’s good behavior.
as noted upthread, women who say no, but really want someone to “try harder”, only end up enabling bad behavior and miscommunication.
There is nothing wrong with the message of the cartoon, in fact, it actually is promoting healthier relationship strategies and communications.
1) Great comic.
2) I have been thinking about passing this along, glad someone got there first (or PZ reads it already).
I shall follow the thread with…
…the usual trepidation.
Louis
And no, you are not a feminist. You are an anti-feminist. Feminism is about equality, which you are clearly against. That means treating women and men equally. I have yet to see a post from you criticizing women’s behavior. But that’s just because women are perfect, right?
Inane Janine:
Perfect. Thank you.
The next time this topic comes up, I think I will post the most non-inflammatory question I can think of, and see how long it takes for someone to reply: “Why don’t you just fuck off and die, and stop wasting my oxygen you piece of shit.”
For those that are wondering, one of the major reasons that feminism is a relatively frequent topic here is that a disturbingly large number of people believe that the mistreatment of women isn’t really a major issue.
Interestingly enough, every post about feminism has a distrubingly large number of people posting that they’re tired of it, because the mistreatment of women isn’t really a major issue.
I’m sure this is a coincidence.
Wow! You mean that women are human and there are some women who engage in stalking and harassment!
I had no fucking idea. But then, I have allowed feminist theory bullshit to cloud my thinking so much that I think that women are on a higher plane of existence.
Like that we are on a pedestal.
@Daz
I learned that “No Means No” in the fifth grade. It was either my mom, my sex-ed teacher, or Bill Cosby. I can’t remember, but it stuck.
Sorry there are apparently so many skeptics who just don’t get the concept.
Thanks!
The one thing that concerns me is the implication that genuinely having difficulty reading social signals is a personal moral failing. Being able to read them and ignoring them certainly is, but while you’d think I’d be used to people with disability-related difficulties being swept under the rug in these discussions by now, it’s still jarring.
Somehow I doubt that’s what you mean, though. :/
To the various people who stated it.
Yes Rape is more common, but do you honestly think that treating every man as a potential rapist is remotely healthy and conducive? Most terrorist look like me, should we consider all brown people as potential terrorists or should we apply a bit of common sense? Remember the most important thing about privilege? You only understand privilege when you don’t have it. So while you get to see a lot more potential “rapey male behaviour” I do get to see a lot more of airport security rummaging around my pants a couple of times while I was still wearing them. Potential Terrorist, Potential Criminal… These things make people form their assumptions well before they actually get to know who you are. So please for the love of someone else’s god, find a better term that doesn’t implicate all men as theoretical rapists. The same argument for racial profiling was used because “black people were more likely to commit crime and brown people to be angry and try and blow up stuff”. Do you think it helps or does it alienate a group of people when you treat them as that?
Take precautions but realise referring to all straight men as potential rapists is harmful because it alienates men. Okay, some may agree with you but a lot will simply just stop listening because you have thrown a big giant insult at them. Sometimes terminology is vital because some terms are argumentative and insulting.
Technically the only way we can ask you out without sounding like a rapist is to write you a series of very persuasive letters or perhaps meet on neutral accorded territory of some sort and lay out details of relationship in legally binding documentation. Otherwise at some point someone is going to have to be a bit creepy and talk to a complete stranger. Because as stated, it’s men who are expected to initiate the conversation. Most of us aren’t blessed with the kind of looks that make women weak at the knees and want to talk to us.
And I may see an issue with the terminology because I find the step between “treat all men as potential rapists” a bit too much when compared to “rape is a risk, take precautions.”.
Is there some sort of browser setting that makes the title of this blog read as “Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal for debaser71” to you?
And why did nobody catch your obvious reading impairment when you were a child?
Moooore, I answered as I did because “So much anger” is such a common fucking trope. And the people who usually pull that one out use it to dismiss people who argue passionately for their rights.
You had no context with your trope so I had to assume that you think that feminist are angry.
Thanks for playing.
So now that you’ve gotten some attention, you think maybe you might drink your milk and lie down for your nap now?
Indeed.
Pro Tip, Moooore: most of the time, humans talk when they have something to say.
All men from a 1st person POV ARE potental rapists…just as all people are potental theives or murderers. I don’t live in fear around a stranger but its not fucking disrepsectful to themthat I don’t leave my wallet unattended around them.
“You know, most of us can make cogent arguments about why even something as patently ridiculous as Intelligent Design is bullshit.
And you think “It just is: look at it and see” is compelling?”
brownian, maybe you should work on your reading skills. I told you already, the first time I tried to have a legitimate discussion about feminism here I was told to put a porcupine in my butt. So why should I make another attempt to discuss the short comings of feminist theory here? You people like to talk about rationality and cogent arguments except that when the topic is feminism NOTHING like that happens. It’s blast, slam, insult, shame, dismiss, pile-on, and excommunicate. This is how skeptics discuss issues with each other? It’s sad really.
Fizzy:
For shit’s sake, I’ve already had a righteously fucked up morning and now we’ve got this broken-down, fucking asshole telling us what “feminism” is.
Where the hell has anyone said women are perfect?
The fact is, women deal with this bullshit all the fucking time. Men don’t take us seriously (“no” means “try harder”) and it grinds us the fuck down. And it’s threatening and rape-y as shit when dudes won’t take “no” for a fucking answer.
But of course when this gets pointed out, some fucking moron simply has to whine “what about the men! Woman are terrible people, too!”. Here’s a hint, douche: That’s not the fucking topic at hand. If you want to talk about how simply awful woman act towards you*, start your own fucking blog.
*It’s no wonder ‘cos you’re obviously an asshole.
Yes, exactly! Which is not what you would think reading PZ’s blog on an even semi-regular basis.
What I also find interesting is that in our society that kind of thing from women is not looked down upon as much. If a guy friend told me he was following girls around and trying to rub up against their chests, I’d be creeped out. If a girl tells me that, I still think it’s a bit weird, but harmless. Feminists should be trying to raise awareness about that kind of double-standard as well, and some of them do. Not PZ’s brand of feminist, though.
*facepalm*
It is not about treating all men as potential rapist. It is about being aware of the possibilities.
(And here is a bit of airing of dirty laundry. In the lesbian population, the percentage of rape cases and domestic violence is about the same as the general population.)
“JMB” makes a lot of assumptions about everyone else’s relationship history, but seems remarkably coy about his own. He responds to the notion that women say what they mean with incompetent armchair psychology, which isn’t a very promising sign. Also, to indulge in a little armchair psychology myself, stupid and nasty people generally use the insults that would hurt them the most. The fact that he uses “virginal self-loathing” as an insult (and ineptly tries to rub it in with insincere pity) implies quite a lot of relationship angst on his part.
What are the odds that he considers himself a pickup artist, and feels desperately proud of a string of short-term relationships, while dismissing a pathologically high rejection-to-success ratio as just being part of the game?
@Gareth, you’re welcome. Some of those links are quite new, but they’re part of the ongoing discussion of women in atheism and skepticism that began years ago, got legs with PZ’s “The Woman Problem” post (link) in 2010, and caught fire with Elevatorgate.
Some of the recent posts I linked arose from heated discussion and myth-defense in earlier threads; and there are other discussions, all over FTB. (I suspect PZ posted THIS because an earlier kerfuffle caught his attention…) There’s a backlash every time feminism gets discussed… kind of like atheism, eh?
I wonder how far we’d get with a “Listen to Women” bus campaign.
—
That’s why it’s up to THEM to clarify their intentions. You can give them your number, make a point of saying “Hello, I’m glad to see you” next time you meet, or (if you’re as Aspie as I am) just flat-out say “Okay, let me know if you change your mind.” If they’re actually interested in you, THEY should keep trying. Some won’t, but IMHO that’s part of the challenge: Can this person realize that I value their freedom? Can they decide on their own how to respond when traditional social pressure isn’t dictating how they should behave? Because if they can’t, I’m not comfortable being intimate with them.
—
Absolutely. I think people who play the “no”/”try harder” game may end up in happy relationships IN SPITE OF this game, not because of it.
Seriously its not a debasement of the character of women that security looks inside purses before entry to arenas and venues.
Oh, for Pete’s sake…
It is possible to get to know people of the opposite gender without hitting on them immediately.
You know all your same-gender friends? I presume that you managed to get to know them without hitting on them, right? Now, do exactly the same with people of the opposite gender too. If, having got to know them, it should transpire that there’s some mutual attraction, go for it.
Why is that so bloody difficult to understand?
@PZ
Well, believe it or not, I started my relationship Girlfriend-one-and-only after she asked me out. Things were great after the first year, but I think she decided that she wasn’t going to be happy with me, and eventually dumped me. I was devastated, and I’m still not entirely over it.
I was never encouraged to seek female companionship in my formative years. Being a teenage nerd with “emotional disabilities,” my female classmates would pick on me as readily as the male, the only difference being that the males would also beat the crap out of me on a whim. The result was ending up with practically no confidence or self-esteem. (Sorry, kids, it doesn’t “get better” for many of us.) It also didn’t help that I had emotinally abusive, religious parents who discouraged me from having any sort of a social life at all. Even if I could find a girlfriend, I wasn’t allowed to date, or drive, or go out with friends until I was 18. Part of it was out of fear that since I was “defective” and obviously couldn’t control my sexual urges, I was in danger of fornication which would condemn my allegedly Catholic soul to Hell. They wouldn’t have that on their conscious.
In conclusion, I’m one messed up bastard.
That means treating women and men equally
here’s a question for you, oh ye who are so ignorant of history:
Does getting rid of affirmative action mean that now everyone has the same opportunities?
if you think yes, how about this analogy:
Your parents locked you in a room as a child, never let you go outside, or have any friends, or play any sports.
When you turned 15, they said:
“Lockdown is over, go out and enjoy the world now.”
do you think if everyone considered you has having the exact same background and experiences as everyone else, that this would be fair to you?
Ok, I’ll be serious now. I support feminism, and I’m not a libertarian.
Comments on any topic here, but particularly ones related to feminism and libertarianism, degenerate into furious insults / sarcastic condescension really quickly. Surely you must have noticed. Like somebody will say in response to an article “I think X makes a few good points”, and people will respond as if the OP had just described in graphic detail how they love to torture and eat infants.
You do realize it’s still a double-standard when YOU believe it, right? You can go ahead and call it out as creepy regardless, and not push the work off on those feminists.
Well, using my comparison of growing up and violent and dangerous neighbourhood and treating everyone as a potential assailant: yes.
Yes it is. I will size up everyone who approaches me uninvited on the street as a potential threat, and act according to my experience.
“Common sense”, in an argument, always means “what I think”. Dispensing with that piece of idiocy, you might want to consider what I said about probability.
Very few North Americans have any experience with terrorism, due to the very low probability of being the victim of a terrorist attack. The fact that there are some risks that are overblown is not a sensible argument for treating the world as if it had no risk.
Seriously.
“Here’s a hint, douche: That’s not the fucking topic at hand. If you want to talk about how simply awful woman act towards you*, start your own fucking blog. ”
Nope, other women don’t act awful toward me at all, and I think the problems women face in terms of sexual harassment are worse than the ones men typically face. However, I think sexual harassment should be attacked for what it is.
I think violence is a problem, and racial minorities tend to commit crimes more often. That does not mean PZ should start making posts about how black people should stop attacking people in cities.
Anyone can commit violence, and anyone can commit sexual harassment. Just because one group of people does it more often than another does not mean that group should be singled out. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it’s wrong.
“You do realize it’s still a double-standard when YOU believe it, right? You can go ahead and call it out as creepy regardless, and not push the work off on those feminists.”
How I feel and what I believe don’t always line up. Maybe it does for you, but I guess that explains why you believe this kind of bullshit.
It’s a fear about being labeled a ‘bitch’.
A bitch stands up for herself. A bitch tells a guy no. A bitch actually puts her needs or wants or desires before someone else’s.
A bitch needs to be taken down a notch. A bitch is undesirable. A bitch needs to be tamed. A bitch needs to be silenced. A bitch needs to be broken.
So, you get society teaching women that they need to put others before themselves, to not speak up, to not make a fuss. And you get guys who ask a question and get a no..but it’s not a ‘real’ no, right, because you don’t want to cause conflict. Don’t want to disappoint someone by putting yourself first. Don’t be a bitch.
And to the folks who say that oh, they’ve tried and nothing worked for months/years/decades, what is your point? No one is guaranteed happiness and sex is only guaranteed if you’re willing to pay for it.
So why should I make another attempt to discuss the short comings of feminist theory here?
well, finally, a good question.
why the FUCK are you even here?
your attempts at elucidating “shortcomings” were so off base as to be laughable, if they weren’t so pathetic people just wanted to hit you with a rock an put you out of your misery.
so…
flounce already.
Protip: the incident that you are complaining about involved a woman who is substantially more than half your age.
This isn’t dating advice.
It’s treating women like human beings advice, which is in sadly short supply.
I can tell, for one thing, be reading people’s reactions here.
Again, this is advice about treating women well that can (and should) be applied to dating. It should also be applied to interations with your wife, your co-workers, your friends, strangers, etc.
If you have trouble seeing that this is a general principle being cast in the light of specific experiences (including, among others, dating), I’m not really sure we can help you.
The whole culture surrounding dating is problematic. I knew a guy at university who would not only reject any woman who asked him out (since that obviously made her a slut) but would ‘change his mind’ about any woman who he asked out who said yes the first time (as that also obviously made her a slut). He aimed to get rejected at least a few times before he deemed the woman worthy of a date with him. He was a rather unpleasant man with the attitude that women who like sex = slut, women who put up with sex in exchange for dinner/shiny things/long term financial security = girlfriend/wife material.
That may be a rather extreme example, but I’ve come across milder versions of the same thing in lots of men.
“I don’t like the woman to do the asking, I like to ask.”
“If she asks me out rather than waiting for me to ask, I think she’s being a bit forward.”
“I just like to be traditional about this sort of thing.”
If we say yes too soon, we’re sluts. If we say no, we mean keep trying. If we do the asking, we’re sluts.
Generally, I’d say that if you’re asking someone on a date before you’ve asked their name, you should back off. If you’re asking someone out before you know them well enough to know if they’re already in a relationship, back off. If you’re asking someone out before you know whether or not you have anything at all in common, back off.
I don’t understand the rage that things like this tends to cause among certain folks, it isn’t like we’re asking you to lock yourself in a dark room, stay there for the rest of your life and never speak to a woman again. We just want to be treated like people rather than walking sex toys.
And to those asking why this is a problem, it is a problem because women say it is. It is a problem when women feel uncomfortable in certain communities because of endless propositions from people they barely know. It’s a problem in communities where women are already underrepresented when they feel as though they are unwelcome as anything but decoration/wank fodder.
It would be cool if there were more women in scientific/skeptical communities, but if you only want us there so there’s an increased likelyhood of you getting laid, you’re part of the problem.
You argue this as if men and women are on equal footing in this society. Guess what, assclam, most feminist will say that those women are wrong. But here is one difference here. There same people who claim that men are just being themselves so cut them some slack will also dismiss women acting like that because, hey I wish that women would do that to me.
But, mostly, I find that objections like your are a means of muddying up the issue of feminism.
2Akira
Get counciling for your self worth issues. I’ve talked to you long enough to know that your a good guy but you need to get these issues resolved. You desperately need to rebuild your relationship with yourself. Look into some of the resources at recovering from religion and the like. I give my vote of confidence that you can be a really good catch if you can conquer those demons
That is all great, Mooooore. Yet you still had to enter this conversation like a typical troll. I will not apologies to you. I have seen too many idiots playing the exact same quote that you did.
I remeber a cultural primer on going over to Japan…yes=maybe and maybe= no…the culture influences woman to very rarely say no and the primer advised getting a maybe as an invitation as a no
debaser71,
To serve as your counterbalance?
Don’t you lecture me, shithead. If “I got yelled at before” logically led to “Now I’m a trolling douche who only shows up to cry about the good ol’ days”, then you’d have an argument. But the reasonable response to “Geez, these people won’t even listen to me” is “The Internet is a big place; I’ll go somewhere else”. So don’t fucking blame me for the fact that you’re a petulant, whiny pisshole who’s steaming mad that his privilege got challenged and now lives to cry about it.
I’ve seen the arguments you’ve made. If you think you made reasonable argument before and were inappropriately told off for it, then I don’t see why you’re not part of our food supply, along with the other animals of bovine intelligence.
I’m sorry, but I’m having a really hard time understanding how someone who thinks “I was disagreed with before, so now I simply assert my conclusions without argumentation” thinks he has license to dictate how ‘skeptics’ should behave. What are your credentials? That you really liked this blog before?
Again: why the fuck are you still here, you fucking dolt? There are millions of sites where you’ll get the handjob you expect for expressing your feelings about those feminist bitches.
Fizzy:
*facepalm*
Citation really fucking needed.
You have no fucking clue how sexual harassment laws actually work, do you?
A few men may experience sexual harassment, sure. But it’s a fucking issue of scale. Nobody here thinks it’s a good thing to sexually harass men, either, but the fact of the matter is, it doesn’t happen all that much*. Women, by and large, deal with sexual harassment all the fucking time. I know I do, and I’ll be willing to bet that most of the other women here have the same fucking experiences I do.
This all smacks of the “special treatment” argument, when all we want is to be treated like fully equal members of society, not somebody’s fuck toy.
*And by making it unacceptable to harass women (you know, the people who are most often the victims), it’s not like it will be magically acceptable to harass men.
*shrug*
Jason Thibeault: The disadvantages of being a man
Feel free. It’s even written by a guy. I also recommend Stephanie Zvan’s article on Consent that I linked above, and I can whip out the NSWATM links on men raped by women if that’ll cheer you up. Consent doesn’t actually vary by gender, it’s just interpreted that way.
I’m still trying to wrap my head around no means ask again in 5 minutes. Why exactly do you get to interpret someone’s response in whatever light excuses your actions best? That’s not only unfair to the person you’re engaging but it’s incredibly manipulative behavior. You are literally playing between consent and non-consent to push someone towards what you want.
In this case the want is sex…. Which I find incredibly creepy. You have the right to coerce someone into bed? You’re allowed to do that without consequence or repercussion? That doesn’t sound sick to you all?
I don’t really have anything to say at this point, except that the post title reminds me of Choose Your Own Adventures.
Wow. If you think this is a PUA manual on how to get jiggy with young chicks, you not only have some real reading comprehension problems, but you also have some frightening and unstated assumptions lurking in your brain.
Hyper,
You certainly bring up some fair points. The first reason that I haven’t talked about my own situation is that any information I give would be completely unverifiable since it’s posted anonymously over the internet.
If you want to know, I’ve just entered into a new relationship after recently ending a year-long one. Of course, you’ll never know if that’s the truth or not.
The second is that I’m not sure why it matters. Let’s say that I’m in fact a 40 year old virgin in his mother’s basement, or a 28 year old female wasting time in her cubicle, or a 15 year old closeted gay male. So what? The only thing that matters in a forum such as this is whether my words have merit or not. You don’t think they do. Fair enough.
As far as my considering myself a ‘pickup artist,’ I don’t know what the odds are, but I know the answer. I’ve never thought of myself as such. That would be pretty silly, and I’m not sure what I said before to imply that I think in such immature terms. Maybe you can show me.
Further, you describe me as “stupid” and “nasty.” It’s fair (though perhaps rude to verbalize it) for you to consider me “stupid,” but at what point have I been “nasty?”
You describe my use of the term “virginal self-loathing” as an insult, when in context anyone can see it’s merely a description of a certain mind-set – one that I think is very real and very common in marginalized male-dominated subcultures (another opinion you might characterize as “incompetent.” Maybe you’re right, I am, after all, not a psychologist, or psychiatrist, or psychoanalyst, or sociologist. But I can, I think, make reasonable judgments based on my personal experiences with such groups.).
This is all written as a bit of a “stream of consciousness” thing and may be a bit of a mess to read through…
I’ve got plenty of female friends and I’ve always had it easy with finding friends in women. But I know fuck all about engaging someone in a romantic way for the “first time”. Which is partially why I’ve been single for the last 7 years now. Because I don’t want to risk ruining a friendship by offending someone or to start something on which I am not certain I even want in the long run. Or just create a weird feeling. Because it seem to me that once you’ve shown your interest in a person, the cat is out of the bag and that has repercussions on everything you do from that point.
I get exposed to a lot of feminist propaganda which I basically end up interpereting as because I got a penis I am a horrible evil creature that lives under a bridge and is only waiting for a my opportunity to do horrible things to women. For instance, I read an article in a feminist news paper where the author was talking about how before you accept that as a man you are a potential rapist you will always be a part of the problem and never a part of the solution. And one woman who labled herself as feminist that was a guest on a swedish tv program seemed to be surprised that as she called it, men getting upset when they are addressed as a problem group when it comes to rape.
With rethoric like that there’s no wonder that young guys are getting depressed and the suicide frequency goes up. A psycology article I read talking about the subejct basically put it down to the rapid cultural change made young men feel very confused about what society wanted accepted and demanded of them. Making them uncomfortable about being themselves.
They are raised by their elder which teach them one thing, but society doesn’t accept that anymore and demands another and possibly several other. It all boils down to a mess of conflicting ideas and before you know it you don’t know what to do about yourself. This goes on until you feel the only thing you can be sure about as a man in todays society is that everything you do and say is wrong, and you are dirty sick and depraved.
So now. You can’t even ask a person who doesn’t have a penis for coffee without being a misogynist. Because you need to be the perfect man. You need to be suave, you need to be able to think on your feet. You need to be social, you need to be exceptional in every way.
Or, well that’s what my feelings and thoughts end up being about the matter.
Feminism is supposedly about equality between the sexes. But everywhere I look, it’s as if the only perspective that is ever valid in the discussion is that of the woman. Anyone who doesn’t conform is labled a misogynist pretty much instantly. That’s not equal. And people are so afraid of being called a misogynist that they will do anything to avoid it. I don’t feel like there are any good discusion. It ends up being a bunch of people that end up discussing from almost extreme polar opposites.
Fizzy:
Also, Janine’s point about “equal footing in society” is right on the money. I had that in mind, but I’m having a shitty morning and not being as articulate as I would like.
“You argue this as if men and women are on equal footing in this society.”
I don’t care how you think I’m arguing this. I’m arguing this as if men and women SHOULD be on equal footing in this society. That means if we’re talking about sexual harassment, I’m going to say sexual harassment is bad, even if statistically the (reported) claims of sexual harassment are much higher for women than men.
“Guess what, assclam, most feminist will say that those women are wrong.”
You know you’re winning an argument when you’re “opponent” is so desperate they spend more time thinking up insults than actually arguing their point. I would hope ALL feminists think sexual harassment committed by anyone is wrong. If they don’t, I don’t consider them feminists.
“There same people who claim that men are just being themselves so cut them some slack will also dismiss women acting like that because, hey I wish that women would do that to me.”
English. Learn it. I agree with you. I also think there is a flip-side to that. Sexual harassment by women toward men is not highly objectionable, if not desirable, by our society. If men don’t want it, something is wrong with them. On the other hand, if a woman is sexually harassed, society expects her to feel violated and be outraged. But many anti-feminists don’t care about that. They only care about “patriarchy” when it affects women. Equality is what feminism is about at its core.
“But, mostly, I find that objections like your are a means of muddying up the issue of feminism.”
It’s called nuance. I’m not surprised people like you and PZ aren’t used to it.
E if were talking about equality of the sexes why on earth would we focus on women? It’d be like focusing racial equality on blacks instead of whites.
Fuck it, I’m done with this. There are some people who would rather whine about how hard men have it rather than think about what actually happens in the really really real world.
I don’t have the patience for this shit today.
Inane Janine:
Let me put it this way. While I may be pro-feminist and non-libertarian NOW, I wasn’t always that way. There was a time when I would have considered myself a libertarian, having been seduced by too many episodes of Bullshit. And while I was never a misogynist, growing up as a white male meant there were some things I accepted as normal and didn’t think to question until I was older.
Now, what made the difference for me was mostly reading things on the internet. And it wasn’t vitriolic comments on Pharyngula that persuaded me. It was the article on Schroedinger’s Rapist, and some calm and level-headed explanations of what “privilege” is (it is very true that privilege is something you don’t notice unless you don’t have it), and a discussion between women about the things they deal with every day that I wouldn’t have been aware of. And articles by Sam Harris and Roger Ebert about income inequality and health insurance made me rethink my political views. If I’d been coming to Pharyngula and being called an ignorant fuckwit every time I said anything, I don’t think I would have seen the error of my ways. I would have just thought that my opponents were angry idiots.
So, in conclusion: I recommend being nicer to people, and toning down the RAGE a little.
You seem to be starting from an assumption that men and women are equally advantaged in society. The simple fact is, that even in the most enlightened parts of the world this is not the case. If people point out that women are more discriminated against than men it is because this the reality of the situation.
Moooore,
Quit whining about tone. It makes you look as thick as pigshit.
I understand. That is why often, I am just a lurker on these threads. And I am grateful that there are enough people around to keep up the argument that it does not just fall one one person.
@ Kristus
Won’t somebody please THINK OF THE MEN???
Miss the point much?
“And one woman who labled herself as feminist that was a guest on a swedish tv program seemed to be surprised that as she called it, men getting upset when they are addressed as a problem group when it comes to rape.”
So who is the problem then? Women? I guess if we would just stop going around having vaginas, we wouldn’t get raped, right?
Read Schrodinger’s rapist. Every time I meet a man, I have to consider the fact that he might be a rapist. I have to decide whether or not going home with him, or letting him into my car, or into my office is a good idea. If I’m going on a date, I have to consider situations I may end up in where a “no” on my part will not be taken as a no. Because if I do get raped, people will say that it was my fault. That I asked for it somehow. That I should have expected him to be after sex, that by willingly going with him, I forfeited my right to later say no to sex.
I didn’t make the world this way, but I have to live in it.
*doublefacepalm*
You do know that is common knowledge, right? Minorities (not Asians) that are socionomically disadvantaged tend to commit crimes are much higher rates.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=crime+demographics+united+states
*facepalm*
Citation really fucking needed. Also, consider that in our society, women sexually harassing men is not necessarily looked down upon. Men are less likely to report sexual harassment or rape than women are. Even with that, I think women would make up a much higher percentage. But the numbers are not as low as you think.
Moooore, an unfamiliar poster puts up a stereotypical troll statement. And I called out out on that bullshit. Learn from this.
I will not change my tone just because you acted like an idiot.
Fizzy,
For some reason you only produce data for the US.
Why ?
Fizzy, learn how to blockquote. Or at least use italics. You can find the tags just above where you enter the comments. That way, it is easier to tell what you are quoting and what you are saying.
Oh. I see that Fizzy is mixing up usage of quotation marks and tags.
I see that this thread is heavily infested with MRA’s* who try to make this issue a whole lot more complex than it is.
As PZ said @ 68;
Human communication is an art – it is not certain, it is often difficult, but women are not uniquely hard to understand, and trying to claim that they are so that you can justify re-interpreting what a woman says to conform to your own desires is nothing more than rape apologia.
The solution is simple; even though a minority of women may say ‘no’ in the hope that you will prove how interested you are by perservering, or because she is unsure about how to proceed or simply changes her mind at a later date, you should always assume that ‘no’ means no. Why? Because if you are wrong and she actually didn’t mean no, then she may approach you later of her own volition. Even if she does not you have lost nothing by taking her words seriously. There are 7 billion people on the planet, it is hardly as though this is the only chance you will ever get to form a relationship.
If, however, she said ‘no’ but you chose to ignore what she said because you think that ‘trying harder’ is the order of the day or because you feel that she didn’t really mean no even though she said it, then you run the risk of at the very least frightening and intimidating the woman in question by behaving in a fashion that suggests that you won’t take no for an answer, and at worst you may become a rapist by placing the woman in a position where she feels she has no option but to accede to your request in case you become violent.
That risk that you are intimidating a woman – possibly to the point that she feels she has no other option than to say yes out of fear for her safety or because you have worn down her resistance – should be more than reason enough that you should always take the position that ‘no’ means no. If you take this approach, then the worst case scenario is that you miss a few opportunities with women who may have been unclear in their communication, in an extreme case you may never form a sexual relationship**. This is a small price to pay when set against women feeling safe in society, and removing the cover afforded to rapists by the idea that women ‘play hard to get’ and ‘send mixed messages’ such that it is acceptable to assume that ‘no’ doesn’t mena no.
*JMB is a particular favourite – men who actually listen when women say no are ‘unhealthy, feaful losers’. Its priceless, and quite clearly the projection of a deeply insecure individual. Who else would brag about their supposed economic, social and sexual success? He’ll be talking about the size of his penis next.
** I am assuming heterosexuality for convenience in this case. Obviously the same would apply in same-sex relationships.
“You seem to be starting from an assumption that men and women are equally advantaged in society. The simple fact is, that even in the most enlightened parts of the world this is not the case. If people point out that women are more discriminated against than men it is because this the reality of the situation.”
I agree that women are “more discriminated against than men.” In fact, I know women suffer from discrimination more than men do. What I don’t agree with is, “all women are so significantly more discriminated against than all men that we should oppose discrimination against women rather than discrimination as a whole.” From my personal experience, I know far more girls who have stalked guys than vice-versa. That is anecdotal, so it might not mean anything. To me, however, it means that this is an issue that when people focus only on one sex rather than the issue itself it does a disservice to everyone.
“Wow. If you think this is a PUA manual on how to get jiggy with young chicks, you not only have some real reading comprehension problems, but you also have some frightening and unstated assumptions lurking in your brain”
PZ, your choice of words include “dating protocol” and “sharing secrets” about the “relationship game”. In previous posts it was “hey we’re just trying to get you laid!”.
IMO when you posted that ‘study’ about the wage gap…and even though it was heavily dosed with bullshit…it was AT LEAST an issue regarding gender NOT about dating.
“Fizzy,
For some reason you only produce data for the US.
Why ?”
Because I live in the U.S. and the U.S. has a lot of data on crime and statistics. Want to know about other countries? Google that shit yourself.
“Oh. I see that Fizzy is mixing up usage of quotation marks and tags.”
I actually put a blockquote within a blockquote. Didn’t know you could do that, did you?
Diane @69:
Haven’t read all the comments yet (my popcorn hasn’t finished popping) but I have to interrupt myself and say I love you in a totally non-creepy way. You fucking rock. If I wasn’t straight and roughly older than God, I’d want to have your babies.
Needed to be said. Carry on.
Well that is a start.
Oh dear. After a promising start it has all gone horribly wrong. Want to guess what your mistake is ? Here is a hint: We do oppose discrimination as a hole. Being so silly as to say we do not does not reflect well on you.
Correct. It means nothing. It means nothing to such an extent I am at a loss as to why you bothered mentioning it. Very odd.
Except they are not doing that, except in that tiny little brain of yours, so again, it is a silly thing to say.
A nitpick but you have such a “tell” in this sentence.
Oh, and debaser71, thank you for fucking explaining what is bullshit about feminism.
Make sure that you do not use lube with the porcupine.
Your claim though was not about the US was it ? There was no such qualification, so you cannot just produce data on the US can you ?
Really, you need to better than this. If you make a claim, support it. Do not makes claims you refuse to support. It is not honest.
So, given that this was your point, you decided the best way to communicate it was to passive-aggressively and obliquely jump in with “There is a lot of anger on this blog”?
You are in no position to have any useful opinion on communication strategy whatsoever.
Why do you fucking think I said what I did. And yet you still insist on using quote marks when a blockquote makes things so much more clear.
“Fizzy” is fitting.
unless you’re (for example) an LA cop; a US soldier in some country the US invaded, or an Israeli soldier in occupied territories, you’re not “Schroedinger’s Terrorist”.
What the fuck is it with douchecakes like you not understanding the power-gradient involved in “Schroedinger’s Rapist”?
power-gradients again. brown people aren’t the ones with power in this society. Also, most terrorists aren’t brown/black people actually, whereas almost all rapists are men; and terrorism is statistically very rare, while rapes and rape attempts are very very common.
no, since from a woman’s perspective, that’s pretty much what it is: every man might turn out to be the man who rapes her, or at least tries to. And no one will do anything about it. So women end up behaving a certain way around men, out of that internalized fear. All minorities do this towards the dominant groups that harm them.
except that neither is actually the case, and you’re still reversing the power-gradient. Men are not an oppressed class in Western society.
Schroedinger’s Rapist is describing an “is”, not an “ought”. “take precautions and you won’t get raped” is as much bullshit as “treat every man like a rapist and you won’t get raped. And neither is what SR is talking about. Seriously, you shouldn’t try to criticize an argument if you don’t understand any part of it.
oh, the lulz…
My wife wants ice cream. It’s a pretty simple request, and ice cream is cheap and we live within a mile of an ice cream parlor which is a regional favorite.
She wants other things too, but most of them are equally easy to provide. I don’t have many wants either.
Needs are a different story, but those are all covered pretty easily.
Thus, happy marriage.
“Here is a hint: We do oppose discrimination as a hole. Being so silly as to say we do not does not reflect well on you.”
Yeah, but what you (or, rather, PZ) regularly posts sure doesn’t show it. I know you wouldn’t say, “discrimination against men is OK.” Rather, complaining about how men are creepy and stalk and sexually harass women when, in reality, it is both men and women doing these things to both men and women it is a problem. For instance, in Japan, on some trains men are forced to hold their hands above their heads to avoid being accused of sexual harassment. Women, on the other hand, are not pressured to do so.
As a feminist, I think that’s wrong, even if men groping women is more common. It leads to beliefs about what is the norm in society. Little boys and girls who see men holding their hands above their heads on trains will see that and internalize it. The same goes for less subtle things in our society.
“It means nothing to such an extent I am at a loss as to why you bothered mentioning it. Very odd.”
I mention it because those girls see nothing wrong with their behavior to the extent that they talk openly about it. I think that reflects a larger problem in society.
“Except they are not doing that, except in that tiny little brain of yours, so again, it is a silly thing to say.”
Tiny little brain of mine, eh? Gosh, you’re pretty desperate, aren’t you?
“And yet you still insist on using quote marks when a blockquote makes things so much more clear.”
I don’t care about making things clear for people who refer to other people as assclams. Sorry.
bullshit. poor people, especially non-white poor people, are arrested and convicted more often; however, ceteris paribus, racial minorities are not actually more likely to commit crimes, and it’s not altogether clear whether poor people do, either, once we remove those “crimes” that only exist as part of criminalizing poverty (because that’s obviously tautologous)
Okay, I do have something else to say, and that is that it was vitriolic comments on Pharyngula that persuaded me. Maybe not that alone, but actually reading the content of those comments, finding out why they were so vitriolic, realizing that there was a critical mass of people vitriolic on the subject and that they couldn’t all be just psycho beasts, reading the supplementary material they linked to (was the Schroedinger’s Rapist piece shown to you by someone insulting you or whispering happy rainbows into your ear?), and listening. And I’m not the only one.
So drop the tone argument, Mr. Moore, you’re not going to win. You came in like a troll, you got treated like a troll, you haven’t done much to redeem yourself.
And an other inane statement from Zerple.
“Oh, and debaser71, thank you for fucking explaining what is bullshit about feminism.”
In addition to being told to put porcupines in my butt I’ve also been told that THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO DISCUSS the short comings of feminist theory. So no, I will not waste my time going into it with the people who post here. But if you are interested in my thoughts then search for debaser71 on NSWATM and feministcritics.
And at least this time people aren’t whining to be about my internet handle…my “nym” as people here called it.
Sorry, fuckface, but you are not just addressing me. But it is very telling that you are so willing to be so fucking petty.
@Inane Janine:
“And an other inane statement from Zerple.”
I am a wizard at that sort of thing. I think it’s silly to spend hours wondering what women want, when you can just go ask individual women what they specifically want. They’re not all identical. Neither are their wants.
Citation needed, or you are the anit-intellectual, not the feminists..
“The Rules”:
1) Real women never want sex / Real men always want sex.
2) Real women are always sexy-attractive / Real men are never sexy-attractive.
paraphrased from: Two myths of desire
—
So Fizzy, will you now consider speaking up the next time someone in your social circle’s acting creepy or stalkery, regardless of what gender they are, or will you complain that those feminists really ought to do something about it?
—
The RAGE has proven useful in smoking out both true misogynists, and those who would rather protect their egos than find out their mistakes.
And you would rather howl like a kicked dog. Gotcha, you fucking blowhard.
I have never been able to determine why the people who complain about being insulted never actually seem to bother engaging the comments made by those not hurling insults.
Don’t get me wrong – I think that the hurlers of barbed words on this blog provide a needed and enjoyable service, and do so with dash and aplomb. I like the tone here just fine.
I just wonder why – if you think someone has nothing to offer you but abuse – why keep talking with them? It starts to look like a ‘doth protest too much’ situation after a while.
I am curious what these wankers complaining about the nasty tone think when people are mean to a hapless creationist that wanders in here and gets ripped apart. Or is it only about this topic that the tone really matters as they are on the wrong side of it?
Then again, sometimes I wonder if they only come here for these threads because I do not often see their names popping up in the comments of other postings.
@65 debaser71oug
I too am getting tired of the repetitive “problems of the attractive, thin, middle class, young, educated, upwardly mobile, white woman” posts.
????
Markle, I am impressed by your ability to look into the internet and see exactly who and what we all are.
Assclam.
(See, Fizzy, you are not alone. And Moooore, you are not the first fool that I called out for a trollish statement.)
This is kinda funny (and sad): Fizzy thinks that we should not take steps to mitigate sexual harassment of women, because it will lead to people thinking that sexual harassment of women is common and accepted.
Sexual harassment IS common. And you know what makes people think it’s accepted? NOT doing anything about it.
Someone who is truly interested in equality and sincere about regarding women as human beings and persons would recognize that the discomfort experienced by women who are the victims of harassment far outweighs the discomfort experienced by men “forced” to raise their hands on a train to demonstrate that they are not one of the harassers.
Logic and equality fail, Fizzy.
Alverant,
Sorry. I’m catching up only now.
I tried to explain my words in a better way, but then I realized that you’re right. I did turn it into “no doesn’t really mean no”. I guess I was trying to defend your classmate’s attitude, which just means I fell into the same trap she did.
@Anri
“Don’t get me wrong – I think that the hurlers of barbed words on this blog provide a needed and enjoyable service, and do so with dash and aplomb. I like the tone here just fine.”
I don’t. The first time I posted here kinda went like this:
Me: What about this logistical problem with that ideological thing people are arguing about. Has anyone considered it?
Trolls: FUX U PATRIARCH Y U H8 WOMENZ?!?! JAM POINTY OBJECTS INTO ORIFICES!!!
Me: Nobody has addressed my concerns.
Trolls: U SO SEXIST AND STUPID
Me: Great, I’m being trolled…
Trolls: NUHUH U JST DUUUUMB.
This went on for 9001 posts, until.
Nice Person: Here’s why your logistical concerns are invalid. Have a nice day.
Me: *stunned silence accompanied with a complete change of an idea*
I came to embrace the original ideological thing, that I got trolled for raising a logistical concern about.
That “Nice person” actually changed my views to align with what the trolls were trolling for. All the trolls did was annoy me, and make me consider not reading any more of the thread. Their behavior almost locked me into my incorrect idea. One nice person changed my mind.
tl;dr: Trolling scares people off, and has no legitimate returns, other than to amuse trolls.
Tone goes both ways. Calling people mansplainers rather than responding to arguments is lolable. Ultimately the tone of any conversation is defined by how many people are on each side of the issue, and for some reason PZ seems to have become radfem wonderland.
Yes, that’s right. Problems of the attractive, thin, middle class, young, educated, upwardly mobile, white woman include:
* A man asked me on a date in an environment I didn’t like – an elevator!
* A man asked me on date when he just met me!
* A man asked me on a date – TWICE! I told him no before!
* I was talking to this man about an academic subject, and he commented on my looks!
@Alverant#27
“As for “playing hard to get” in college one of my classmates freely admitted that she says “no” to anyone asking her out for the first time because if they were REALLY interested in her, they wouldn’t give up so easily. I agree that “no means no” and I’ve always taken it as such but shouldn’t ignore the existence of those (in both sexes) that think “no means try harder”.”
Honestly, I see it as win-win. I assume that a woman means no when she says no. If she doesn’t, then I’m not really interested in someone who sees HERSELF as a “prize” to be won. I’m not trying to “get” a woman. I’m trying to interact with another person. If she’d rather play mind games than engage in an honest manner, then I’m afraid I’m not really interested…
There’s the door.
And let me predict the ever witty repartee of Fleur, “Go insert a porcupine into your anal cavity!” and variations thereof.
I mean, clearly you’re not actually reading these posts.
@Markle
Fuck you.
You seem to think you deserve better. Why is that?
You honestly complain about tone in the same breath you say “lolable”?
You presume people are actually giving arguments. They’re not. I’m quite happy to talk to people who want to talk. Not just someone throwing a dead squirrel over the fence
And yet it couldn’t be that you just suck at determining what a non-inflammatory question looks like. Nooooooooooo.
markle, those aren’t multiple problems, those are one problem.
And I’m not even going to bother with the delusion that only “attractive, thin, middle class, young, educated, upwardly mobile, white” women encounter the effects of sexual objectification, or that only such people comment here
I guess ‘e didn’t notice that “he/she REALLY wanted it/deserved it” is the same damn excuse in everything from a gang-rape in Nigeria (link) to the rape of men in the military (link). Or do y’all think atheism is only about school prayers and bus signs?
Problems of the attractive, thin, middle class, young, educated, upwardly mobile, white woman include:
I’m guessing Markle is an unnatractive, fat, poor, old, uneducated, loser.
just going by the logic there.
Markle, it is not just about being asked out in a creepy manner. But hey, why point that out because you have all of us pegged.
@Ichthyic
Well we are ignoring the issues that rich, white, educated, male Richard Dawkins got denied entry at a venue!
“Sorry, fuckface, but you are not just addressing me. But it is very telling that you are so willing to be so fucking petty.”
That is far more trollish than anything I’ve posted.
I think we should take steps to mitigate sexual harassment. If people are being groped on trains, I think everyone should be pressured to put their hands above their heads while traveling. But keep making up bullshit.
What a derpy comment. You can’t see anything other than letting women experience discomfort and letting men experience discomfort. That’s why I don’t consider you a feminist: you don’t give a shit about equality.
I’ve read the posts the first, second, and third time PZ posted on the same subject. No, I didn’t the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, …. nth times. Why should I? It’s always the exact same cycle.
“Stop being rude to these attractive, white women! They’re educated human beings too.”
“Okay that sounds good. I wasn’t trying to be rude … all I wanted was a nice date …”
“SHUUTUPPPPP PROCUPINE HEDGEHOD RAPIST FUCK FUCK FUCK ANUS MANSPLAINER ERHUHDFGHDGFADF!!!!”
Poor loki is being oppressed by the radfems.
You’re face is different
But you are really all the same
I have to teach you a lesson again and again
FIFY
Markle, this is astounding news. Ugly, fat, lower class, uneducated women of color don’t experience problems with sexual harassment? Amazing. Can you please provide us with a link to the survey you did? Why is it that you think that ugly, fat, uneducated, lower class women of color are able to command so much more respect from men than thin white attractive educated women, despite their relative lack of social status?
Another marker for idiocy: if you’re calling people in this group “radfems”, we can tell you’re a moron right away. Arguing for equality between men & women is not radical.
It is so funny when a newcomer informs us what a troll is.
Fuckface.
No fucking kidding. It’s like calling the Obama administration “socialist”. That word you are using, it has a meaning, and this is not that meaning.
I’ve posted on shyness newsgroups for a while — I stopped now because I’m no longer really shy — and do you know what the most common piece of advice for shy men was if they had met a woman that they found interesting and wanted to know if she was interested in them enough to ask her out?
Stop trying to read signals and just ask her out. Then, the reasoning went, you’d know, one way or another. Since these were shy people, of course, these were cases of some small casual interaction but no big interaction, but the “asking out” was basically your standard “drink/coffee/activity” type of thing. So, why was this advice given (even and even especially from those who were purported to be women)?
1) Shy people tended to be absolutely terrible at reading signals. I know myself that I missed some opportunities simply because I couldn’t read signals of interest.
2) Shy people had a tendency to use the uncertainty of signals as an excuse to NOT approach; if the signals weren’t absolutely clear, then they could claim that she wasn’t interested and avoid the thing that they really did want to avoid.
3) Asking out and getting an answer was better than continual debating and reasoning and analysis over what the situation really was.
So those cases clearly WEREN’T cases of disrespect or of not treating women as people, but would invoke possibly an earlier approach than might be recommended.
Now, imagine that in this case the guy asks and the girl, being hesitant to reject outright, simply says “Maybe” or “I’m too busy this week, maybe later” or just “I’m too busy”. What should that shy guy take from that? If he takes her literally at her word — and lots of shy people are very good at taking things literally — then it’s not a “No”, but an actual maybe. And if he’s supposed to take it as a “No”, then isn’t he basically not believing what she says?
And it seems to me that these sort of dubious answers are the more common ones. You don’t get straight out “Noes” all that often. I’ve had a few. I’ve had mind changes. I’ve had unclear maybes. I’ve had “Call me” and then not returning calls when I did.
Human communication can, indeed, be really, really hard. Which means, in my opinion, that genuine interest should never be met with “F-you” stares or an assumption of lack of respect or whatever, but with a simple clear, polite rejection. And if someone can’t do that, then the problem is with them, not with the person who asks.
(One rejection I got to a coffee invitation was “No. Thanks, though!”, which was quite nice, in my opinion).
Fizzy, YOU are the one who clearly stated that the discomfort of men asked to raise their hands to demonstrate that they are not harassers is of MORE concern to you than the discomfort of women subjected to sexual harassment. Personally, I would hope there’d be a better solution, but that’s irrelevant. What I’m focusing on here is YOUR OWN WORDS, wherein you clearly indicated what is more important to you.
What’s your proposed solution, then? Anyone groping anyone is clearly a problem, but the fact is that most of the time, it’s men groping women. The problem is gendered, therefore the steps we take to correct the problem are going to be gendered. Sounds like you don’t want to accept that.
This post is so far up my list of best day-brighteners ever, that I couldn’t help but stop to thank you. I love your blog, I love Girls With Slingshots, I’m a feminist (and the Tucker comics on GWS have been SO great) and this honestly just made my day 1000x better. I just took a work break from working on an excruciating history paper and math test studying to check your blog (I have no time these days to do anything but work, shower, and occasionally eat).
So this making my day 1000x better was much appreciated. Yaaaay! Danielle Corsetto and PZ Myers is honestly an AMAZING combo.
I’m going to have to just link to this post on my blog AND on the comment I’m about to leave on Today’s GWS strip.
Did I mention that this makes my day AMAZING??
@kristinc
“No fucking kidding. It’s like calling the Obama administration “socialist”. That word you are using, it has a meaning, and this is not that meaning.”
It’s equally annoying when they refer to his advisers, which every president in the last half century has had, as “Czars”.
It’s too bad that real life doesn’t work like the comic. Real life is full of mixed signals and complicated people whose moods change.
I’ve had a night of cuddling on the couch followed by a “I’ve decided not to date you” when I got home. The same person was warm and cold for months, depending on whether I was interested in someone else.
I had a “no,” followed by a night holding each other on the couch, followed by another “no” later. That night together was when I was dating someone else casually, and had a coffee date with yet another person planned.
That was two different women, both this year. Both of those emotional roller-coaster scenarios seem to have been precipitated by jealousy, even if it wasn’t overt. I can’t say for certain, of course, but it definitely looks that way. People are complex and emotions are volatile. It’s not simple black and white.
I am by no means sympathetic to the Men’s Rights bullshit that goes on. I fully support Rebecca Watson’s position. I even told her as much when we were hanging out in the hotel lobby on Saturday after her presentation here in Tallahassee. I even got a hug when she retired for the night. (Yay geek-crush hugs!) However, the blame for these types of situations does not lie solely with us clueless guys.
Markle:
And you obviously don’t understand why the second statement there deserves such a response.
PZ, you didn’t direct that to me, but you just made me sit down and ask myself seriously why I assume people (not just men) are going to shoot me down. Do I honestly give them a chance? Do I see them as people, or construct a big fear story around them? Do I make assumptions about people based on things that aren’t real, or do I have the courage to face facts and individuals as becomes a woman grounded in reality?
I think I know the answers to that. No, I don’t give them a chance, because I hide from them. No, I don’t see them as people, but as big wet bags full of scary thoughts I made up myself. That shocks me because I have no real reason to think that way; I am seen as “nice” and people seem to enjoy my company. When it comes to being a “fat, ugly impoverished loser,” I at least know I’m not an ugly, impoverished loser.
I have work to do and I’m going to do it right away. Thanks a Billion. :)
“It is so funny when a newcomer informs us what a troll is.
Fuckface.”
I wasn’t aware Pharyngula was the only medium in the world, grandpa. My impression is that it’s just a blog full of trolls. Troll.
I’m glad PZ raises these issues. I’ve always considered myself a feminist, but only when I started reading the posts and comments after elevatorgate did I realise how little I know, and how much of a problem still exists. It made me re-evaluate how I communicate and what signals I give (or don’t give). As a female member of the skeptic community I am grateful for other skeptics arguing passionately for feminism because it strengthens my confidence to clearly communicate boundaries (and not feel guilty for being ‘mean’), to speak out when I observe sexist behaviour, to educate myself more.
Thank you.
@markle #257
You’re clearly missing the point – those aren’t the problems THEMSELVES.
The problem with the elevator is that it’s a situation where the woman is trapped. Given that one in four women are sexually assaulted by the end of college, being propositioned by a stranger in a place from which you can’t escape is a safety concern. It’s not just “an environment I didn’t like”.
The other three come down to basic respect.
It’s a little odd to be romantically propositioned by someone who doesn’t know you at all. Basically it means that the proposition is based ENTIRELY on what you look like, with little regard for your personality. That may be flattering on the outset, but it also indicates that the person asking may well not care much what you want or who you are, as long as they “get the pretty thing”.
It’s disrespectful to assume someone is lying to you when they say they’re not interested – it indicates that you’re more concerned with what YOU want than with what THEY want, which is generally not the foundation for a comfortable dating relationship. Having told someone no a couple times already, and they don’t accept that you mean NO means that they’re probably not likely to think you mean no when they’re forcing you to the ground either.
If you’re talking to someone about a particular subject, and they comment on your looks, rather than what you were saying, that’s a pretty clear indicator that they weren’t listening to you, which is generally accepted as disrespectful in most societies.
Does that make things a little clearer?
I was embarrassed about writing something stupid, but now that I have read the whole thread I see that was just a little plop in a whole ocean of feces.
Why do people whine about shit like this? If what you’re looking for is someone who’s genuinely interested in a relationship with you, then you LOOK FOR SOMEONE WHO ACTS GENUINELY INTERESTED IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU. “Warm and cold” does not even begin to describe that kind of person.
So essentially, your complaint is that you kept pursuing someone who wasn’t really interested in you, and somehow that’s all the fault of the wimminz.
Seems like a lot of guys are refusing to shoulder any of the responsibility until women collectively demonstrate that they are perfect.
PS: As a mostly-lurker I’ve previously posted maybe a couple of times under a different nym – I know this is frowned upon, but I can’t remember the password for that wordpress account anymore. *hangs head in shame* I have since then switched to this as my main. Hope that’s ok?
Give me a break. Every single post of PZ’s was the problem of an attractive, thin, single, educated, upwardly mobile white woman. Rebecca Watson is the prime example. THIS VERY COMIC features an attractive, thin, educated, upwardly mobile white woman. The Sin whatever comic before featured attractive, thin, educated, upwardly mobile female devils.
These dating problems are all attractive, thin white girl problems, akin to Bella Swan’s problems in the Twilight book series. Oh no, so many attractive men want to date me. Except they’re not propositioning dates in the way I want them to!
@Alteredstory
“The problem with the elevator is that it’s a situation where the woman is trapped. Given that one in four women are sexually assaulted by the end of college, being propositioned by a stranger in a place from which you can’t escape is a safety concern. It’s not just “an environment I didn’t like”.”
So being alone with a man is a safety risk, just by the virtue of that person’s gender? Hooray for sexism!
So Markle, again, where did you get your information telling you that women of color who are not attractive, thin, educated, or rich, experience none of these problems?
Grandpa? I see you have impressive reading skills.
Stupid fuckface.
(Fizzy is yet an other person who proves the Pharyngula trope that Nerd Of Redhead is the only woman at this blog.)
@288 Alteredstory
That’s exactly my point. Look how ridiculously trivial this problem is.
I’m pretty AND smart and when men want to date me, they often notice how pretty I am and not how smart I am. It’s soooooo difficult being pretty and smart!
“Fizzy, YOU are the one who clearly stated that the discomfort of men asked to raise their hands to demonstrate that they are not harassers is of MORE concern to you than the discomfort of women subjected to sexual harassment. ”
I said that’s more of a concern to me? Really? Show me where I “clearly stated” that. You just see what you want to see, don’t you? If I had to pick between the two options, it would be men raising their hands so women aren’t groped. In my view, people should be treated equally, though. That means if a minority of people are groping others, everyone should put their hands above their heads so no one gets groped. In your world, a minority of people grope others, so only the males should. That’s what is wrong with people like you and PZ.
“What I’m focusing on here is YOUR OWN WORDS, wherein you clearly indicated what is more important to you.”
Again, where did I say that’s more important to me. ‘Cause it’s not.
“What’s your proposed solution, then? Anyone groping anyone is clearly a problem, but the fact is that most of the time, it’s men groping women. The problem is gendered, therefore the steps we take to correct the problem are going to be gendered. Sounds like you don’t want to accept that.”
Racial minorities in U.S. cities commit crimes more often. That problem is racial, so the solution should be racial? No. It’s a societal problem among. We should seek solutions that deal with these things without resorting to discrimination, which you’re perfectly fine with.
@kristinc
She was also a good friend. Am I supposed to dump a friend because she turned me down romantically? My only complaint is that my friend would push the boundaries of that friendship, but only when I would talk about other women I was dating. How is that wrong on my end?
I actually don’t think this is true. I know that for the most part — speaking mostly for myself — my physical attraction is based at least in part on an assessment of what I think they’re personality might be like, and there are a lot of things having to do with your appearance that indicate personality (style, carriage, etc, etc). For me, to approach someone that I think is attractive is based greatly on what I think their personality might be like, and any asking out on anything like a date is basically an attempt to see if their personality matches my impression of it.
So, for me, “getting the pretty thing” MEANS getting the nice person. And I think it credible to suggest that a lot of the time this is the case for people who are not me.
@ beethovenfangirl – Don’t worry about it! Glad you decided to drop by and share your story, and feeling encouraged that this has affected you so positively. Indeed, there are plenty of women who feel uncomfortable just saying “no,” for a variety of reasons, some having to do with personal safety. You know what will help them gain the confidence to communicate clearly and be uncompromising about their boundaries? People, especially men, taking them at their word every single time they say “no” or “maybe.”
Ideally I’d agree, but the recipient doesn’t necessarily know what is genuine interest versus threatening interest. So they’re going to respond based on, among other things, their own history and level of frustration. One way to demonstrate good faith, unfortunately, is to gracefully take “no” for an answer, even “no” in the form of “fuck off”.
(Incidentally, as a kid I had a “F-you” stare that actually made a child molester take his hands off of me after “no” didn’t work. So, it does have its uses…)
If you have nothing interesting to say, kindly shut the fuck up.
Potentially, yes. When that man is a stranger and you are in an enclosed space. Keep forgetting these little details.
Bad analogy. A better one would be the problem of lynching, which was a racial problem.
The solution was also racial, it was basically society and the government saying, “White people? Stop doing this.”
Similarly, the solution here is for men to stop doing this.
Whether or not that offends your precious sensibilities.
@speedwell #285
It’s a lesson well learned. I was taught it by an ex-girlfriend who is now still my best friend.
Okay, men-who-are-complaining-about-women-who-won’t-go-out-with-them:
Most women you meet are not going to want to go out with you. There are a number of reasons, most of which have absolutely nothing to do with you, so stop assuming that it is an insult.
When you come on here whining about “What’s so bad about asking a woman out?” you sound like all you want from women is sex, that to you a woman is just a life support system for a vagina. While some women at some times in their lives only want sex too, in general this is not the case. Most (certainly not all) women don’t like being hit on by strangers. This has been mentioned many times upthread and in every single thread on this subject since. Here’s an idea. Why not try a period, say a year, in which you assume that this is true (and not just an evil conspiracy amongst ball-cutting feminists), and act accordingly. Get to know some women as just, you know, people. Then try asking one out. No guarantees (see above) but I’d bet money you’d not only get more yes answers but you’d have a better time while you are out and you will definitely have better sex. And more friends.
Those of you who are complaining about not having a sexual relationship in like, forever, please, please stop torturing yourself. Some of the men I’ve been most attracted to in my life were just down right ugly by standard criteria. And overweight. So just get on with your life, make some friends of what ever gender, be a decent person. You might relax enough to be found attractive because you are funny and kind and smart and the fact that you are not physically attractive simply will not matter.
Oh, and debaser71? If you’ve worn out your porcupine, we keep plenty in stock. You just had to ask.
My goodness.
And not a single person here suggested that you go and look over the – quite literally – thousands of posts on the topic earlier to see if your issues had been addressed already?
I’m betting they did.
At that point, you either went and read, and figured out why many of the regulars are sick to death of saying the same things over and over (including ‘go look at the previous threads, please’)…
– or –
You said a variant of “Nah, I don’t think I’ll go educate myself – I’ll wait around to be spoonfed.” (Domenstrating the ‘ignoring’ bit that’s got the regulars so frustrated.)
If you did the former, I can’t imagine you still believe you were trolled. Thus, I’ll assume the latter.
Therefore, I’ll ask nicely, in a non-insulting tone, that you go read the previous threads on a topic if you have questions about it. On the topic of feminism, it’s a lot of reading.
(If the balking point is reading a lot, then I’m sorry, but you shouldn’t try to understand complex questions – they often require lots of reading.)
Next, this is a blog on your computer screen. No-one can force you to read posts you don’t want to read. If someone is insulting you and therefore has nothing useful to say, skip their posts.
Lastly, as has been noted, if you don’t care for the tone here, I’d suggest you pop on over to the numerous other science blogs that are larger and more popular the this one by virtue of being more polite.
Markle @ 250;
What, exactly, are you trying to say here? That rape and rape culture is somehow exclusively the problem of ‘attractive, thin, middle class, young, educated, upwardly mobile, white women’? If so, then I would suggest that you are suffering a serious disconnect with the reality of the experiences of women of all ages, ethnicities and social classes – rape is common place, and it is reasonable to assume that reported rapes are a mere fration of all rapes, because of the social stigma that attaches to rape victims, and the likelihood that a victim of rape won’t even be belived if they do report the attack. Rape, and the misogynist attitudes that facilitate it, are ubiquitous experiences of women everywhere. This is not about nationality, ethnicity, class or body morphology – this about treating women as actual people and not accepting the patriarchal status quo or the rape apologia it spawns.
I assume that you are not trying to make any such point, but it is also possible to parse your statement as meaning that rape and expressions of rape culture should not be considered a serious problem so long as the victims of it are ‘attractive, thin, middle class, young, educated, upwardly mobile, white women’. Language matters, and it would be best to avoid any such ambiguity of you wish to avoid invitations to carnal relations with decayting porpcupines.
Fizzy. I will not shut the fuck up. And guess what, your fucking obtuse little troll, most of the regulars here will side with me on this issue.
Besides, I am waiting for your first interesting statement.
Fuckface.
What a derpy comment.
sure sign of someone who learned their social skills by watching South Park.
Zerple,
No, it’s a problem if a man can’t recognize that propositioning a woman in a situation like that is liable to trigger panic. For crying out loud, how hard is it to be sensitive to people’s actual behaviour and not do things that they find threatening?
Markle–
Go read the Angry Black Woman, and google for some information on womanism then.
And what gives you the idea that the women posting on Pharyngula about their own experiences are all attractive, thin, single, educated, upwardly mobile, and white? That is in direct contradiction to some of the self-descriptions posted.
I get the feeling that for you to take a woman’s complaints seriously, she must not be any of those things. You’ll only count harassment if the victim is unattractive (however you define that), fat (ditto), married, uneducated, poor, and nonwhite. In other words, you’re waiting for complaints from the very women who are used to having their objections dismissed as “she should be grateful” and “it’s impossible that anyone would want to rape her.”
If she says “no” and actually means “no” – then she’s not interested. Move on.
If she says “no” and actually means “try harder” – then she’s a manipulative head case. Move on.
If she doesn’t answer really, but expects you to understand her body language or tone or some fuzzy nonsense like that – then she’s non-communicative and expects you to be a mind reader. Move on.
Problem solved, boys. There’s better women out there. Ask THEM out.
@Zerple 294 – you need the context there. It’s not just that she was alone in the elevator with a man.
It’s that she was alone with him in an elevator AND he propositioned her (at 4am, in case you missed the whole incident).
And she didn’t accuse him of being a rapist or anything, she just said that it made her uncomfortable.
The whole situation sucks for SNAGs and our ilk, but the fact of the matter is that there ARE a lot of dangerous guys out there, and without getting to know you, no woman has any way of knowing that you’re safe.
The logical thing to do is to proceed with caution. It means that I do have to make a new effort with every woman that I meet, but until rape isn’t nearly ubiquitous, that’s just how it is. It’s not that much of a sacrifice to ask her to hold on a moment before she gets in the elevator, make the proposition, and then let her get in the sealed box alone if she says no.
Presumably, if you want to “spend time” with a woman, you want her to feel like she’s not going to be mistreated, yes?
Well, be fair Gregory. The rest of us have REAL concerns to worry about.
/snerk
Fizzy: “That’s why I don’t consider you a feminist: you don’t give a shit about equality.”
And why I don’t consider you a decent human being: Even in the face of facts that Group X commits indecent/horrible act Y on Group Z several fucking orders of magnitude more than Z commits Y on X, we should pretend that both groups are equal victims and equal perpetrators of the deed, in the name of Equality. Which is the same fucking nonsense that closet racists will drum up in order to argue about how Affirmative Action is evil discrimination and that it is contrary True Equality. They say that what we must do is pretend that we are playing the game of life on a level playing field and do nothing to counteract the effects of historic discrimination and continuing discrimination. We must pursue the noble goal of ignoring these facts in the name of Equality, and treat everyone Equally. We must do so without regard for the fact that doing so means everyone will be left to their own devices, and that Group Z will be perpetually fucked over and Group X will be perpetually privileged. Because treating the two groups slightly differently until the playing field is actually level is so contrary to the principles of the True Egalitarians that anyone proposing it might as well be Hitler himself.
Proposing equal treatment for unequal groups is just a way to perpetuate inequality, in many situations. It is common for people to suggest that they are the truest advocates of equality in the face of vast disparities entirely because they oppose differential treatment in supporting the subjugated group(s) before we adopt true, equal treatment. These people are misguided at best, disingenuous and evil at worst. What are you?
“most of the regulars here will side with me on this issue.”
And that means anything to me… why? Go to a Christian forum and most of the regulars there will side with each other as well. I don’t care about your groupthink bullshit.
“sure sign of someone who learned their social skills by watching South Park.”
I’ve actually only seen South Park once and thought it was pretty inane. It’s called the internets, man.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=derp
–About 12% of men in the USA admit to raping or trying to rape somebody (as long as you don’t call it rape, but use words like, “used coercion or drugs to have sex with someone who didn’t want to have sex with you)
–About 30% of men in the USA say that they would rape if they thought they could get away with it
–A recent survey in South Africa revealed that 73% of men admit to having raped someone
–99% of rapes are committed by men
–At least 20% of women in the USA will be raped during their lifetime
Sexism, indeed.
@Dhorvath
“No, it’s a problem if a man can’t recognize that propositioning a woman in a situation like that is liable to trigger panic. For crying out loud, how hard is it to be sensitive to people’s actual behaviour and not do things that they find threatening?”
But it’s only liable to trigger panic if she already has some sort of preconceived sexist notion that the man asking her out is a large risk for sexual assault.
But Johnny, she’s a manipulative head case who’s not giving my bonerrrrrrrrrrrrr what it wannnnnnnnnnnts.
“Markle says:
18 October 2011 at 6:21 pm
@288 Alteredstory
That’s exactly my point. Look how ridiculously trivial this problem is.
I’m pretty AND smart and when men want to date me, they often notice how pretty I am and not how smart I am. It’s soooooo difficult being pretty and smart!
Did you even READ what I said?
It’s not “I’m pretty/smart/people notice”.
It’s “Will this person who apparently has no regard for me as a person rape me? If they try and I fight, will they kill me? If they rape me, and then don’t want me to tell about it, will they kill me?”
It’s not that every woman propositioned by a stranger thinks those things outright, but those are the stakes, and those questions, or ones like them, are why people like Watson very politely (until you start acting like an asshole) try to tell people like you what actions trigger those questions, because they WANT attention from nice men, they just want to feel safe in romantic situations.
Sally Strange,
“The police need to stop spending so much time and energy tracking down rapists and killers while there are still shoplifters out there!”
Fizzy,
Does that mean we won’t be hearing from you any more?
@Alteredstory 315
Oh, yea, I missed the complete context. Stranger in wee hours of morning is a good reason for caution.
I was thinking it was something along the lines or propositioning a stranger during the day in a mall elevator or something like that.
My bad.
12% isn’t large enough for you? Here’s a hint: the elevator thing was alarming not just because of the location, but also because of the context: this guy was ignoring an already-existing “no.” When a guy demonstrates that he is willing to ignore a woman’s stated wishes, he’s increasing the odds that he is a rapist, because that is rapist behavior.
@Egaeus:
I’d say, your friend definitely had some issues with jealousy and probably had the “men only stay friends if you bait them with sex” thing going on, too. What would be wrong on your end would be to blame that on women just being inherently frustrating, instead of your friends buying into the same sexist crap about how men or women are “supposed” to behave.
Sally Strange, did you see my reply?
Fizzy:
We all hope that you will soon free yourself of whatever vile influence that forces you to remain here against your will.
– – –
Zerple:
“She’s just being silly, her thoughts are all wrong. I can tell, because I don’t feel that way. I hate it when women act all silly – they should be more like me.”
Zerple, you give me hope :D
And as a general comment/apology, I need to remember quotation marks if I’m not going to use HTML tags for quotes >.<
@SS – 319
So, looking at something a characteristic some minority of a group factually has, is grounds for assuming that characteristic for the entire group?
Weren’t you arguing the opposite thing yesterday in a thread about stereo-typically girly video games?
Did you see mine?
Who said anything about assuming? We’re talking about evaluating potential threats to personal safety here. Risk assessment, not assumption.
Guess what, stupid fuckface. I do not fucking go into christian forums and fucking tell them how they should fucking conduct their interactions.
You fucking fail at using analogies as well as everything else you have said in this thread.
By the way; what is my fucking gender?
I’ve actually only seen South Park once and thought it was pretty inane. It’s called the internets, man.
and you didn’t even bother to look where it came from did you?
yup.
It’s clear.
you’re a clueless git with an attitude problem and a sense of entitlement who thinks they don’t need to know shit to have an opinion.
congratulations.
I thought Rebecca Watson was too ugly to reasonably take offense at being hit on?
Can’t you assholes keep your story straight?
Problem is, some people do actually like to play coy or hard to get. And some other people do actually sometimes change their mind without regret after some harmless persistence.
I see a staggering number of people in here who just flat out deny that and pretend that everyone always says exactly what they mean. The world just isn’t that simple, and taking “no” for a rock hard answer every first time it is uttered just isn’t a productive strategy in the real world. Why is this so hard to understand?
Calling everyone who points this out a rape-apologist is incredibly insulting and counterproductive. We don’t live in a black and white world, and human interplay can’t be boiled down to a few simple rules like “when someone says no, back the fuck off immediately!” There is a world of nuanced and grey-shaded difference between taking the first no for an answer and raping someone.
@SS 332 –
“Who said anything about assuming? We’re talking about evaluating potential threats to personal safety here. Risk assessment, not assumption.”
Still, that reasoning is kind of like saying, some small number of women admit to marrying men just for money, therefore I should assume that any woman who wants to marry me is actually after my money. Panic is a reasonable response to a woman wanting to marry me, etc.
It’s the same sexist nonsense, just in reverse.
kristinc, ~delicate snowflake~ Says
“But Johnny, she’s a manipulative head case who’s not giving my bonerrrrrrrrrrrrr what it wannnnnnnnnnnts.”
Watch how this is done, kids…
Hey Kristin – interested in giving my boner what it wants? If “yes,” cool, let’s party. If “no,” okay, I might be kind of weird around you for a little bit because I think you’re kind of cool and hot. But I’ll eventually get over it. All good? Cool. See ya around.
THIS ISN’T THAT DIFFICULT!
You are mistaken. The problem is there is a sizable minority of men who think that is true of all women.
I actually started yelling as I was reading the comments. I’ve been talking to people about feminism on the internet for awhile, and the same shitty objections come up every fucking time:
You’re just talking about it because you’re mad (no, Fuck-Face, I was calm. When you started telling me how I feel, what I’ve experienced and what I mean, I got angry. Your perspective, from a position of privilege, is often used to encourage me and others to ignore my perspective. I am not taking it from you.)
Women don’t know how they feel/don’t communicate how they feel or are in the minority if they do (Fuck you. I’ve been beaten for being what men chose to call a ‘bitch’. One of my exes actually threw me down a hallway while yelling “Why won’t you let me be the man?” I was all of 5’4″ to his 6’2,” but I kept thinking I could express an opinion about my life. I’ve been assaulted by men for being ‘uppity’ and locked in a freezer for turning down my married boss. I communicate my feelings. The nicest response I typically get is to be told I’m defective somehow. Woman cannot equal assertive, oh no. I must have been exposed to testosterone somehow and really be male.)
On that note: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/apl/92/2/425/
No means yes. (No means no means no. Keep bugging me and I’m going to stop even pretending to be polite. I will fucking eviscerate you, because it may be that you’re just awkward, but I don’t know if you are awkward or testing my boundaries because you’re planning to assault me. And, you know, sometimes it’s no until I get to know you, which is NOT an invitation to bug me. I’ll let you know if I want to get to know you, and it will be by giving you access to my social network and talking to you. Being my friend is an excellent goal in and of itself, and people who view that as a way station are asking for the mockery they get.)
Also: http://www.springerlink.com/content/n5244208r65w3k70/
You must be a messed up person. (You know, I’ve got my baggage. I’ve also got a graduate degree and am getting two more graduate degrees, nominations for national awards in writing and a list of publications as long as my arm. I know exactly how I will react in a life and death situation because I’ve been in a handful. Do you know what that means for my confidence? Even at the lowest of my lows, I know that I am tough and competent. Fuck that ‘defective person’ trope. Sometimes people with baggage grow up to be high achievers.)
I’m going to go to stats class now. Color me annoyed as fuck that there are this many willfully clueless assholes, even after the work which has been done on this site to educate them.
I see a staggering number of people in here who just flat out deny that and pretend that everyone always says exactly what they mean.
where?
show me ONE PERSON in this thread who is “pretending that everyone always says what they mean”.
fuck “staggering number”, show me ONE.
I rather think you entirely missed what people were saying here.
Okay, back for a bit:
Even if this was the case (here’s a hint: it’s not), dismissing the sexual harassment and rape of white, thin, single, educated women is completely fucking disgusting.
But your asinine point is moot, anyway since women of all socio-economic classes, ethnicities, education levels, age and size are at a higher risk of rape than men are.
Zerple: So, believing that a woman that you know well enough that you would actually consider marrying is just after your money is exactly as sexist as believing that a complete stranger making advances on you in a confined space might rape you? What world do you live in?
No I said they’re not worth dating. Why would you date a known liar?
What a fucking stupid comparison. There is not comparison to a women being aware of situations where rape is possible a woman who is marrying for money.
And you wonder why many of us have shown contempt for you during the short time you have been commenting.
Is that something you think would be OK? Because it still sounds distinctly creepy to me.
“give my boner what it wants”
So. What?!
Productive for what?
Oh god, we’re back to the “money = bodily autonomy” argument. Fuck everyone who thinks that. Fuck you right in the ear, you sniveling piece of shit.
I have 10 women tied to a bed. 9 are subs and 1 is a person I dragged off the street. I invite you to have sex with them. Would you, knowing that one of them would be a rape, even if 9 are consensual?
You will have to try harder to convince me that you’ve read even a word of what you’ve claimed to have read.
Actually, I see a staggering number of people have already pointed this out and nobody has contradicted it. Or do you have an actual citation to back up your assertion? I’m ready to back up my claim, but you go first since you made your assertion before I made mine.
While I have sympathy for people who can’t read social cues and body language, I strongly suspect most of the people bitching about it here actually can and just don’t like the answers they get.
Okay, I don’t usually chime in, but I’ve read a few too many of the “I followed feminist rules and now can never get laid!” posts. After acting like a misogynist asshat for a good chunk of my life some people beat me about the head and shoulders frequently enough that I decided to try a brand new “Women are people” experiment. Jumped on a dating website (not a good start, I know but bear with me) which had few, and generally bad, profile pictures. Started emailing women based purely on what they had written. Got a date. Date went very well, hug at the end but no good night kiss or other physical contact. I was ascribing to what had been related to me as the 90%-10% rule. That you let a partner know you are interested by talking to them and indicating an interest in continuing to spend time with them, but let them come 90% of the way sexually before meeting them in the final 10%. Second date ensued and we both had a great time. I realized that even if this woman was not sexually interested in me I STILL WANTED TO HANG OUT WITH HER. Third date she invited me over and initiated make outs, much to my joy. She still teases me about waiting for so long to kiss her, but she’s also privately confided that it built a huge amount of trust that I never pressured her sexually. My sex life has, literally, never been more active or satisfactory. I’m still fucking struggling with always treating her as an equal, but she feels comfortable calling me a flaming asshole when I act like one, which helps a lot. I’m not that good at this stuff. Everything I did was at the suggestion of people that hammered me to treat women like people. Worked great for me. See? I can match anecdote for anecdote.
@Anteprepro
“So, believing that a woman that you know well enough that you would actually consider marrying is just after your money is exactly as sexist as believing that a complete stranger making advances on you in a confined space might rape you? What world do you live in?”
My argument was stupid. I see that now. Assuming a guy in an elevator wants to rape you, just by virtue of the fact that he’s a guy in an elevator who has shown interest in you still seems sexist to me.
I will have to think more on the subject.
Let’s take it away from marriage, and assume that she is propositioning you for a date.
Is it sexist to assume that she just wants a free dinner and movie? Just by virtue of the fact that she is a woman and some small number of women engage in that sort of thing?
I really don’t get why this is so hard.
If you ask your boss for a raise, and he says “I’ll think about it,” how do you interpret his answer?
A. Based on his tone, expression, body language and the specifics of the situation;
B. Based on past experience with this particular boss, or;
C. Based on past experience with previous employers, or friends’ anecdotal experiences, or how things normally turn out on TV.
If you really believe that “most women who say ‘no’ really mean ‘try harder’,” congratulations, you answered C, and you’re a dumbshit with the interpersonal skills of a brick.
No…that’s why on dates I defuse the situation by insisting we split.
You’re…not very good at this. Like, at all.
@Inane Janine 245 –
“What a fucking stupid comparison. There is not comparison to a women being aware of situations where rape is possible a woman who is marrying for money.
And you wonder why many of us have shown contempt for you during the short time you have been commenting.”
And you wonder why I say trolling isn’t productive. Anterprepro pointed out the flaws in my argument, and I abandoned the argument. You wailed like a toddler with Down Syndrome and I plan on essentially ignoring you.
Civil discourse works wonders.
Also, yes I would think it’s suspicious if someone asked me out out of the blue without knowing me at all. Ulterior motive would be first on my list.
@Pteryxx 326
Yes, I agree. They both have issues. I have issues. Everyone has issues. If people were black-and-white, and never changed their minds, I’d agree with the comic, but that just isn’t the case. My examples were just there to serve as anecdotes that illustrated my position.
Should I have rejected any kind of intimacy after the initial rejections? Absolutely. Did I? Obviously not. Unfortunately, my emotions tend to trump my intellect in those types of situations, especially because I truly cared about both women before I ever approached the relationship subject.
I’ve been rejected plenty of times. Most of the time, I take it at face value and move on, but when it involves someone I already care about and have a connection with, if they’re going to push the boundaries between friendship and romance afterward, I’m going to wonder if they’ve changed their mind. I don’t see how that is an incorrect train of thought, but apparently some people disagree. Whatever….
@Ing – 357
Yea, I’m a noob. I feel pretty much the same way I did when I abandoned Christianity, like I’m slowly learning that everything I thought or knew at one point is wrong, and I am trying to learn how to think, giving this new huge revelation.
Honestly, in high school I was a lonely nerd with money, and sharks smelled blood in the water. I never thought about splitting, just because I was so happy that someone wanted to go somewhere with me.
Splitting is a good idea.
First of all, Zerple, fucking learn how to blockquote. If a computer illiterate like me can do it, so can you.
Second, fucking think of the situation. Rebecca Watson just got done explaining that being hit on is a problem. And so, in the middle of the night, on an elevator where a chance of getting away is not very good, a stranger asks here to come over for coffee.
For fucking once, think about what are the possibilities. And that is not sexism.
And you keep whining about how you are treated. You are fucking treated as you deserve, Mr Zero Sum Game.
When has PZ ever mentioned rape or non-white pretty women?
Is Rebecca Watson black or fat or non-educated?
Is the girl in the comic in the beginning of this thread black or fat or non-educated?
Are those devil females in the last Sin comic fat or unattractive?
His iterations are always about dating, and the formalities of dating gone slightly awry. It’s like a Victorian lady whining to her corseted friends, “That man was supposed to sit on my porch and drink lemonade every Wednesday night for 3 months before asking if I wanted to have walk, but he only sat on my porch for 1 month instead! The nerve!”
It’s you who are equating proposition for dinner = RAPE 20%OFWOMEN WILL BE RAPED TRIGGER RAPE!!!
*given not giving
Zerple:
In the first place, why the fuck are you commenting on something that you know nothing about?
In the second place, ::sigh, I swear I am going to set up some boilerplate to have handy for this:: MOST WOMEN DO NOT LIKE BEING HIT ON BY STRANGERS. Why? Because if you are hitting on a stranger, the chances are good that you have no interest in the person and are only interested in the body. Most women are not flattered by this, whether they are white and rich and thin or not. Also, it can be kind of scary, whether you meant it to be or not. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
Why hit on a stranger, anyway? It just might leave one to suppose that the reason you are hitting on strangers is that everyone who actually knows you wants nothing to do with you.
You know, every truly awkward and socially-inept person in the world should be pissed as hell at the manipulative misogynistic shitsacks who pull this “But it’s so hard to tell what you fickle woman-creatures want!” bullcrap.
Why? Because the manipulative misogynistic shitsacks are appropriating our problems as camouflage to pursue their manipulative, misogynistic shitsack behaviors. They are attempting to do bad things in our name!
Anybody who’s genuinely socially awkward and yet offers excuses for these sorts of people is shooting themselves in the foot.
@Inane
“First of all, Zerple, fucking learn how to blockquote. If a computer illiterate like me can do it, so can you.”
I’ll post however I want.
“You are fucking treated as you deserve, Mr Zero Sum Game.”
Hooray for straw men! You’re arguing against something I abandoned a while ago, because one of the rational people in that thread, logically explained how I was wrong.
Hell, would you even take your chances on having sex with ONE of them? It’s only a 10% chance, after all.
And you fucking prattle on like an oblivious assclam. You can go on ignoring me. This is more for the benefit of all the lurkers. You may not see it but there are lurkers who see something positive here.
As for what you get out of it, I do not give a fuck. And your whining about tone does not make what you say more civil.
I’ll admit right now I haven’t read most of the comments on this post so the first 50 are what I’m commenting on.
(Pharyngula always gets its fiery comments going right when I have to go to bed so I rarely get to participate, though I’ll try.)
The whole “I don’t understand women” thing is so bizarre to me. So you’ve dated every woman in the world? Because in my experience women are all very different. VERY. Like extremely.
And I’ve never been rejected for a date. Because I’ve never asked someone I didn’t know well beforehand. I waited until we built rapport (most often I did not even know I wanted to date this woman until we’d talked for a good long time and then her brilliance made my asking pertinent) and until “that moment”. There’s always a moment that seems right (in my experience, granted).
I can’t be attracted to someone unless I know them for at least six months (sometimes less, sometimes more). Familiarity for me breeds attraction.
So if you’ve built your relationship on conversing from the start, understanding is much easier.
I will now return to reading the next 310+ comments.
I always have to read everything here in hindsight. Sucks being in Russia. (Well, that’s the only thing that sucks about being in Russia.)
@Inane
“This is more for the benefit of all the lurkers. You may not see it but there are lurkers who see something positive here.”
I think all the lurkers are seeing is that Inane Janine is a troll who throws obscenity laced temper-tantrums whenever he/she has nothing of merit to say.
You wouldn’t know civil discourse if it bit you on the bum, as you prove in the first clause quoted. Vile.
And because I am rude, I am not capable of being rational. And, somehow, you keep piling one stupid statement after an other.
Also, whiny stupid troll, I made the same fucking point as Anteprepro. And I am sure that Anteprepro would agree.
@Zerple#337
Assuming a gold-digger in our society is not generally a reasonable default unless you are very wealthy and known to be so, in which case, yes – that might be a reasonable assumption. That doesn’t mean that all propositions should fill you with panic, but it DOES mean that you are likely to be on the lookout for certain cues, like undue attention paid to your possessions, or someone getting overly excited about how nice your car is, or urging expensive gifts, etc.
Context matters rather a lot.
Markle:
For fuck’s sake. Why does it matter? Why is rape a non-issue if a pretty white woman is victimized?
Take a few days an browse through the fucking archives. We’ve discussed things like FGM, which (last I checked) wasn’t really a problem amongst pretty, white, American women. We’ve discussed the incredible problems of rape in some parts of Africa. And the list goes on.
Nice job trying to silence us, though. And you’re clearly angry at all of those pretty white ladies… I wonder why that is?
Does PZ make a new thread with a new witty comic about FSM every 2-3 days?
No he doesn’t. He gives us Rebecca Watson v.23.05.
@Alteredstory
I understand now (and also agree with you). Thanks!
Strange it’s almost as if people who are black or fat or uneducated generally don’t get the same platform as these white, educated women. Perhaps there is more than just feminist issues involved in this? Perhaps there is a problem with racism and educational issues involved in all of this? Perhaps you are a petulant child and have no idea what you’re talking about and are whining because your capital-A Atheist sensibilities would rather this blog only talks about something dumb that a theist did.
Congratulations, you’re a fool and the problem with society in the modern day. Just being an atheist isn’t all you have to do in order to be a perfect human being, and I think most people on here would agree we’d rather you be a theist and not a massive idiot than for your current iteration of self.
And yet I have been (a very small part) of threads where different women and men felt safe enough to give their stories about their very traumatic treatments. And enough people have delurked long enough to give thanks to people like me who will not let your type of shit go unanswered and uncontested.
For coercing sex out of someone. Regardless of the no’s they give they still might enjoy it and your fulfillment is what’s important afterall.
Gah! If this is what it means to be a skeptic I’m glad I’m out.
I notice you did not ask “Is Rebecca Watson not pretty?” Could it that you know a great many asshats shared their opinion that she is not, and that they believe she is in fact so ugly that she should be grateful to have gotten attention from a male at all?
So, Markle, did you have a problem with Rebecca Watson’s original statement?
Rebecca Watson’s dating requirements aren’t some sort of platform for hidden feminist issues that the non-privileged don’t get to use. The laugh at creationists threads are repetitive too, but at least they have more substance than ergrhegrhagelrjh men aren’t asking me out the way I want them to ask me out!
Where was Watson mentioned by PZ at all? You brought it up asshole.
Who is this dipshit saying that these are just white women’s problems? They haven’t been looking up what women of color are actually saying about sexual objectification, I guess.
http://tothecurb.wordpress.com/2011/05/13/slutwalk-a-stroll-through-white-supremacy/
Women of color have ALWAYS experienced sexualized white supremacy in western society. Women of color who are black, native american, or hispanic are typically portrayed as hedonistic animalistic nymphomaniacs who will fuck anyone. Asian women are often portrayed as being sexually subservient to men. Do you think that those things don’t matter when they are being sexually harassed? Of course they do. The post I linked to just now goes on at length about how shitty it is for slutwalk to not acknowledge that WOC are branded sluts by their skin, not their clothes or actions. Look at the racialized pornography that men consume- racial slurs and ideas of race essentialism are not hidden at all, they are in the titles and the things said to performers in the films. I blogged about that awhile back and someone found my blog by googling “black chicks in heat”. Oh, but sexual objectification is just a white woman’s problem?
Also- this shit where men just don’t fucking listen to women when they talk is a CONSTANT PROBLEM FOR EVERY WOMAN. Rape is the worst case scenario, but there is also the daily grind of having dudes waste my fucking time. There is some clueless douchebag who I directly told to shut the fuck up on my blog who keeps posting inflammatory comments anyway. I ran into him on another blog and said that I told him to quit and he wouldn’t stop, at which point he corrected me (about what I had posted on my own god damned blog). It mirrors the countless times at my work where a dude refused to listen to me, even about something important (like that a mL = cc, while working in a laboratory). Then there are dudes in public who always look to my nigel to talk to when we are out together. Or how I have to get a dude to come with me for car repairs because they will try to rip me off if I don’t. They don’t believe me when I say I know what I am talking about. Or when I called the cops on a guy who wouldn’t leave my property and the police took his side instantly, because he said I was the “hysterical” one for wanting him gone. Or there was the time I reported a dude for banging his underlings (against company policy) and HR said it was okay because his boss had a chat with him about professionalism, this was before promoting him over a woman who is much more qualified. My sister in law is getting harassed serially at her work too and they basically told her to shut up about it, even though she isn’t the first one. It wears on you. Every little action that says “you are less than any given man, always” taken together are just a tiny bit less shitty than the Big Problems of sexism. They are so close to being equally horrible because the constant smaller problems aren’t ever addressed. You could bring them up, but no one would know what the fuck you are talking about, and would probably just call you crazy. It is like being gaslighted your whole life. If men were capable of listening to what women were saying then all the denialism would disappear. Most dudes never make an effort to ask women how they have experienced sexism or how often, and they would be fucking shocked if they took it at all seriously.
I think he just had a stroke
No, I have a problem with PZ’s nth covering of Rebecca Watson’s initial statement. Which are always about dating and why we’re not dating correctly.
Markle:
So the fuck what?
This ain’t your blog. Feel free to fuck off at any time now.
@Markle
You brought Watson up! Idiots like you made Evlafuckagate big! You keep it alive. SHUT. UP!
(And, btw, this post wasn’t about Rebecca Watson. I don’t see her name mentioned in the OP. Why are you being so fucking obsessive over her?)
@inane – general comment, do with it as you will.
Some people genuinely ARE ignorant, and genuinely DO want to learn when someone tries to teach them. A number of people have managed to call Zerple out and correct him without the constant swearing. Maybe that’s not your “style”, but it doesn’t feel all that safe for people who might be willing to display ignorance and have it corrected.
If you’re going to train with a stick, at least stop using it when the dog does the right thing.
just my two cents…
Rebecca is a big deal on this blog because PZ made a ton of posts about her.
@Audley
I’m thinking he’s one of the angry masturbaters.
Count them.
But Rebecca Watson has nothing to do with this post. Hell, the comic isn’t even about her situation.
Stop being so fucking obsessive. Or you could give into your obvious desire to write about RW and write some fanfiction or something.
Hey zerple, why throw in the thing about down syndrome? That was kinda assy, dude.
Markle, you do not get it. The issue never was about Rebecca Watson. (And she does not deserve all of the fucking blowback and bullshit she has been dealing with.) It was a perfect crystallization of what women go through. All of the howling about and distortions of what she said has always been about if women are allowed to bring up and answer these grievances.
In your case, you seem to think that this is only about middle class white women. Even though other people here have been pointing out your mistaken assumption.
I don’t know the women here very well (or at all really) but I’m almost positive their complaint isn’t men aren’t asking them out the way they want to be asked out. I think the complaint is more like ‘I don’t like how you’re invading my space, trying to push my boundaries and ignoring my expressed wishes’ mixed with ‘stop viewing me as a hole to shoot in.’
You may not see the difference but it’s a pretty big one.
Could well be sexist to assume, as you appear to be doing, that she won’t pay half the cost.
@Egaeus:
What I can’t figure out is why romance and friendship should have boundaries between them AT ALL. Admittedly, I’m Aspie and gender-variant so maybe I’m missing something. I don’t see the difference between having a BFF who doesn’t like hockey, a BFF who’s vegetarian, and a BFF that I don’t have sex with. I gather it’s got something to do with being monogamous… err, monophilic? …okay, with fear of being cheated on. But dangit, I’d rather have my partner let me know if xe’s attracted to someone else than to stand guard all the time against our friends. When you trust them, why should any of this other crap matter?
small correction to my last comment. should read “…trying to push past my boundaries…”
Ing:
“PZ MYERS AND REBECCA WATSON” … fap, fap, fap… “PISS ME OFF” … fap, fap, fap… “SO FUCKING MUCH” … fap, fap, fap… “I COULD SCREAM” … fap, fap, fap… *squirt*
Yeah, I could see that.
Oh, so this post doesn’t have anything to deal with Rebecca Watson and her foray into the elevator? That the dig at clueless nerd men who don’t know how to properly ask for a date is just a serendipitous whim that PZ had? That all other 20 posts that are pretty much the same thing are also, equally, off the top of his head. I suppose PZ has been making dating advice for nerds posts, all long, for years and years.
No wait. He hasn’t.
Jesus you’re dense as fuck.
Ever wonder why a lot of the discussion focuses on the “dating” or “asking out” part of it?
It’s because fuckheads like yourself keep insisting that there isn’t anything wrong or creepy or uncomfortable with what happened despite being told how it makes very real people feel. “He was just asking her up to his room”. That sheltered morons continue to make blog posts about how it’s normal and ok dating etiquette even though you’ve been told that it makes many people very fucking uncomfortable to be approached like that. It’s because assholes only concerned with the dampness of their pecker continue to comment here about it in unrelated threads and other places in unrelated threads and have taken missing the fucking original point of RW’s comment on the incident to levels of stupidity rarely seen by the human race.
That people like you can not get it through their fucking heads what people are saying.
And it always comes back to “dating” or “asking someone out”.
Dude…what is your issue?
@371 Zerple
For your information, I am a long time lurker who thinks Inane Janine (a misnomer if ever there was one) to be a very sturdy, level-headed commenter while I have seen your comments to be quite dull. In fact, please stop. You’re a huge speed bump in the proceedings.
Thanks for making the reading easier for us lurkers, сволочь.
Seriously, what is it about this issue that you don’t care about(yeah right) that sets off a fucking crazy button on you.
GAH SOMEONE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING NOT IN MY INTERSTS!!! mUST RAGE!!!!
And you wonder why you get hostility?
@ Pteryxx #400
It’s an interesting question.
There IS the issue of STDs, which is a non-emotional thing, generally. If you know that your lover is only having sex with you, and you’re only having sex with them, then you also know that you’re not going to get a disease that will follow you around for the rest of your life.
As to emotions, I think that monogamy is a little like other sexual preferences. Some people need to know they’re the only one. Some people need to be called “puppy”. Some people need to be cared for, and so on.
For some people, they’re ok being monogamous, and for some swinging is only ok with people they also know and love.
Sex and love are pretty complicated issues, and in all my time exploring them (only a decade or so) I don’t think I’ve come anywhere NEAR the boundaries. The key is finding what’s right for you, and finding who’s right for you, regardless of what that means (disclaimer for trolls/criminals – no, I’m not saying that if you think rape/pedophilia is right for you, you should go get it).
Ing #405: His issue is Elevator Guy.
Really, if these guys are that devoted they should start a Menz! Party so that their issues can be given voice…or they could just join the Rethuglicans…
No its a big deal because you think a fellow dude like PZ should hate a woman for being uppity (politely asking for respect counts in your mind), and when he didn’t condemn her it made you lose your shit. Now you are saying that if he doesn’t have the decency to agree with other penis-americans he should at least shut the fuck up about it already, it is making you uncomfortable. She now represents some kind of special evil in your weirdass mind as a result. I’ve seen this maneuver multiple times when my nigel has spoken out about sexism or pornography to fellow men. They feel that some sort of betrayal has occurred, and it angers them to a really inappropriate extent. They inevitably blame me, and these dudes will continue to blame watson. It is fucked up, but they are just making more feminists out of the decent majority of people in skeptics groups who didn’t know this shit was going on before. It will end positively, I think.
The dog keeps making new mistakes based on the same assumptions. Plus the dog howls about tone even when the rude people makes the same points as the “kind” people.
Also, when you get down to it, arguing against what women are saying when it concerns rights and safety is not civil and nice at all.
Zerple gets what he has been begging. If you are feeling more generous, I will not argue against you nor advise that you change your style.
I admire and is jealous of Sastra. But I cannot nor will not be like her.
I agree. You guys are acting like fucking wankers. The posts are totally readable. If communication has not been hindered I don’t see a reason to be pricks about the style of quotation someone has chosen. I mean, in order to make the criticism “use blockquotes!” you must have understood the poster’s intent.
Ironic, isn’t it, that people who whine the most about the level of civility in the comments tend to be some of the larger asshats. Reminds me of this story where a girl calls 911 because her dad (who’d recently had brain surgery) was on the floor having a seizure. She says “what the fuck?” as the dispatcher picks up. He chastises her, calls her an ass and hangs up on her. Three times. Without ever asking her what the problem was. She went down to the police station to file a complaint. They arrested her. Because she said ‘fuck’.
Yes, all these posts that are somehow interrelated make me furious! It’s almost like this is a place where a single author writes about things that are important to him! And like this author wants to stress the importance of certain social issues! Could it be that this mysterious single author even has an…agenda of sorts?
From Rebecca Watson’s description this guy doesn’t sound shy or clueless. She called him confident, I believe. The character in the comic isn’t meant to be EG and he really doesn’t have anything in common with him except ignoring the object of his attraction’s wishes.
And since when are digs on us nerds for not knowing how to talk to a woman uncommon?
@skeptifem 396
“Hey zerple, why throw in the thing about down syndrome? That was kinda assy, dude.”
Those were hasty words coming from a guy who was being trolled.
If I could edit it I would. I should take the advice I got from another guy on here yesterday and go for a walk before responding to someone who I think it a troll.
Bottom line, I need to contain it better, otherwise I’m just as bad as the trolls.
Sorry various offended forum people.
FFS most nerds DO know how to talk to women, even if they think they don’t. What they don’t know how to do is to talk to women like jocks.
You’re not being trolled, you’re being disagreed with.
@Krasnaya Koshka #406 (and Inane, I guess)
Not really a lurker, I guess, but I got the impression that Zerple is trying to learn, but if you grow up never thinking about these things, it can take time. It did for me, and it still is – I’m pretty sure I don’t always “get it right” even now.
I get the frustration of constantly having to say the same thing to different people, or in different ways to the same people, but for some folks this topic is genuinely new because as males, they’ve never had to think about it before.
Until they start acting belligerently ignorant, I generally assume that it’s JUST ignorance, and they’re willing to learn.
I can’t change your mind, I’m just trying to show you a slightly different perspective.
That said, I’m also glad to see your perspectives.
I’ll tell you what my issue is. Feminism is a genuine movement with genuine issues.
FGM
Burkas
Inequality of political rights
Anything Muslism women have to deal with, really
Inequality of pay
Glass ceilings
Notice that dating habits of nerds isn’t part of that list.
Ummmm rape and sexual assault and harassment aren’t on that list…nor is abortion rights.
FFS just go away.
wait, wait… really? You think that there is such a wealth of material about nerdly dating etiquette that PZ can easily find comics like the in the OP to post at regular intervals about the topic? And he does so for some mysterious purpose of dredging up elevatorgate once again? Not only that, but he supposedly dredged this up without mentioning it at all, the connection so supposedly obvious that only you saw it?
Isn’t it much more likely that he was emailed the comic, liked it and posted it? You may want to use some introspection, think about why you are so obsessed with watson.
Krasnaya Koshka, thank you. Simply that, thank you. I have been around long enough and seen enough people delurk long enough to thank people like Caine, Jadehawk, Audley, SallyStrange and many others that I have not named. Most days, I do not have the temperament nor patience to keep at it. But I also keep in mind that there are plenty of people who just read.
Yes. There are times I get very profane. But I like to delude myself and think that there are readers who want just that. There have been times I have been lurking at a blog and wanted someone to go off like this.
Heh. I’ve never posted on Miss Watson’s elevator situation till now, but I just had a small comment. This fellow upthread thinks she overreacted to it because she’s thin and pretty and successful and popular, “therefore” she is only open to approaches that follow her narrowly defined personal script? Interesting.
As a woman dealing (successfully, I hope) with weight and social anxiety, and not just having given a talk on leaving me the hell alone already, I would nevertheless be suspicious of Elevator Boy doing that to me, because my first (admittedly pathetic) thought would be, “OK, it’s 4 am, therefore he’s spent the night striking out with every other woman he’s asked and now he’s worked his way down to the fat chick as his last resort? No thanks, Buster.” That would be a wrong thought. But it’s rooted in the very real fact that desperate guys suddenly lose the blinders and see women as targets who would be invisible to them if they weren’t ready to expire from a case of navy blue balls.
I had a date once, in college, with a guy who sneaked out of my apartment after sex while I was in the bathroom. The next day he told me I was a “last resort fuck” and that I should be grateful he was willing to pay attention to me. What was that supposed to mean, I said, is it like saying I should grateful to a thief who stole from my hovel because it proved I had something worth stealing? Bastard.
To you. Not to me. So I skip them. Not everybody reads the same. I have issues when it comes to that kind of stuff, so I find posts like those pretty much unapproachable. But since it’s only important if typical people can understand what’s being written, please continue to disregard the rest of us.
Remember every waking moment if you arent’ doing the most important thing possible it makes Mackerel angry
That kind of went off the rails, sorry. Can I blame afternoon low blood sugar? :)
Markle:
Jesus fucking Christ.
So, let me get this straight: if there was a post about sexual harassment in the workplace– Rebecca Watson. “Chilly Climate”– Rebecca Watson. FGM– Rebbecca Watson. Abortion rights– Rebecca Watson.
Can we talk about anything dealing with feminism and social issues without you linking it back to Rebecca Watson? ‘Cos this post really and truly has fuck all to do with her.
Stop obsessing over the elevator incident, you creepy fucker.
@Ing 419 –
When “disagreement” is 95% swearing and calling someone an idiot, it’s trolling.
@Speedwell
You should be ashamed! bringing up topics that actually hurt women because it’s not the worst thing in the world! Don’t tryt o muddle this topic by putting a human face on it!
Again with the nerds…
Do you feel signaled out by these posts or something? You’re obsessing over how Prof Myers is treating nerds but haven’t articulated why you find it so offensive. Dude, what’s got you so worked up about this?
I just don’t get why “guys, don’t do this, you’re hurting your own chances and we would actually * like * not wondering if you ignoring the first no means you’ll be similarly cavalier to subsequent no’s” can lead to such mass testeria!
“you can’t tell me what to do, I’m not a rapist, why don’t you KNOW this thelepathically and insult me so??”
Excellent argument, really. By which I mean I’m sure the men on the fucking MOON can hear my eyes rolling.
@ 421 And all of those things have a single root cause. The idea that women are less than human. It’s very easy to assume that you’re not buying into sexist ideology just because you’re not beating/raping/restricting women, but subtle sexism is very real and it is damaging. If you get the idea that you shouldn’t dismiss a woman’s ideas because of her genitalia, it’s gonna be a lot harder for you to justify paying her less for those ideas.
@Zerple
No. it really isn’t.
And if you don’t want to bother learning the local culture, then go away.
Also, Skeptifem @ 411 (how appropriate!)
One reason it’s useful to bring up “smaller” instances of sexism as in dating and harassment, besides that they contribute to the general problem of “women don’t count”, is that they happen constantly all around us. The scientific and skeptic and atheist communities really are predominately wealthy, western, white and male. PZ’s readers can’t dismiss these examples of sexism as the problems of some other race/country/culture/class. We can think that nobody in our immediate social circle has been subjected to FGM (and most of us would be correct), but we can’t pretend never to have witnessed the banal sexism that goes on every day.
And, recognizing the problem (and caring about the problem) come with the responsibility to do something about it. Most of us aren’t going to witness a gang-rape, but we ARE going to witness more of this low-level, everyday crap. We WILL get chances to change it. Lots of them.
Did Rebecca Watson undergoe FSM? Did she want an abortion and people obstruct her? No, so obviously those topics are not related to elevatorgate.
Dating advice for nerds, is however, related to elevatorgate.
@Markle 421
Are you TRYING to be an asshole?
I know I’ve said it a couple times, and I’ve read it about 30 times from other people – It’s not about “dating habits of nerds”
IT’S ABOUT RAPE YOU FUCKTARD.
It’s about the social structures that CONDONE rape.
It’s about people who justify rape.
It’s about people (like you) who insult anyone who tries to speak up about rape.
It’s about being aware that every woman on this planet has to grow up with the threat of rape.
It’s about respecting women enough to recognize that they have legitimate fears and concerns because of the rate at which assholes target them for rape.
It’s about listening when they say “please don’t act like this, it makes me worried that you’re a rapist and if you’re not, I don’t want to treat you like one.”
It’s about listening to people who have more experience with what they’re talking about than you do because they know what the fuck they’re talking about.
It’s about assholes like you diminishing RAPE to “dating habits”.
Do you think that rape is a legitimate dating habit? Probably not, but you sure as hell seem to be acting like it.
Do you think that it’s ok to completely disregard a woman’s expressed wishes? Fuck if I know, but I hope not.
People have explained this to you a hundred times in a hundred ways and you’re STILL spilling shit out of your mouth on this – can’t you fucking taste it yet?
Did anybody else lol at that typo? The second one, not the first one.
Ugh. 436 needs a “QFFT” in there. Here, have one on the house.
And here’s what it would come down to eventually. Islamophobia.
Yes, a lot of Middle Eastern countries have problems, yes, a lot of Muslim women in the west encounter similar problems. Funnily enough, plenty of non-Muslim women encounter those problems too. Just focusing on “those bastard Muslims” isn’t going to help anyone, least of all the women you seem desperate to bring up in this debate.
As a bit of a hint, in the situations you’re hypothesising only Muslim women encounter, do you not think something such as arranged marriage (which oddly enough still occurs outside of Islam!) is a case of a women’s no not meaning no? Or is that inconvenient to your worldview?
Markle:
You’re still grasping at straws.
Why are you so angry and obsessive about it? And if you don’t like what you deem “Elevatorgate” topics, why the fuck do you bother to read and reply to the post?
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve said this: when I come across a blog post that I don’t fucking like, I move on! Holy shit, that’s fucking mind blowing, isn’t it?
Zerple
Okay – one small point here since this has been covered elsewhere. The failure state of these two situations are not identical. In one you are raped, in the other you are out a couple of bucks. This is not a good comparison, and is pretty insulting.
Oh, get off your rape soapbox. No one in the original comic was being raped.
Yes, I used the incorrect initialism for female genital mutilation. Har har.
yeah because a dude being creepy and sexually entitled only happened that one time to rebecca watson, not like every single day to women everywhere.
If the connection is so real why are you the only one who sees it?
QFT.
Stop viewing people of either gender as a faceless mass. We are all human beings with varying desires and needs. Why is that so damn difficult to accept?
Spend some time getting to know someone before asking him/her out. Treat that person like a human being instead of a walking sex toy.
IT’S SO FUCKING DIFFICULT, I KNOW.
@ Janine – I like the profanity, it helps me stay the course. When I realize I’ve been backsliding into old habits I ‘hear’ a mental amalgamation of you, Dr. Audley, Caine and a few others berating me for it. I didn’t even think about this until I was typing but, in short, you people have become my Jiminy Cricket.
Speedwell, I am sorry that you dealt with such a slimy example of humanity. My body recoiled in disgust reading that. It had to be over a thousand times worse being the recipient of that.
@420 Alteredstory
Yes, I actually see that now, that Zerple is trying to learn, and I’ve kind of seen that before BUT I won’t have Zerple attacking Janine, who is one of my heroes on Pharyngula.
@424 Inane Janine
You are one of the many admirable women on Pharyngula who often say what I want to say but much, much better. I adore Caine, Audley, SallyStrange, oniongirl, there are so many of you.
So know that when you speak here, you definitely speak for me, too.
I have often asked my wife what do you want for dinner, she’ll respond with it doesn’t matter. If if it’s not the right choice, it will begin to matter. There is also the famous “what’s wrong” question, she’ll often say nothing…..but I KNOW there’s something wrong because she’s not speaking to me!!! ARRRGGG!!!
If PZ made countless posts about Muslim women wishing guys would ask for dates in a ever so slightly different manner, then I’d protest too. Obviously for real problems, like coerced marriages, I wouldn’t.
Seconding everything alteredstory said in 439.
Markle, if you’re not just a fuckwitted troll, have a gander at this and you’ll see WHY this is about rape, not dating.
Rape Culture 101
Men who do not take women seriously when they say “no” is the problem, and rape is the worst possible outcome. For someone who is trying so hard to argue that this comic and RW are totally obviously connected it is weird to me that you can’t see the connection between “men ignoring no from women” and “rape”.
No one in the comic was Watson.
Markle:
And you do realize that not taking “no” for an answer may, in fact, lead to rape? Do you even know what rape is, asshole?
Insipid Moniker:
Thanks, that perked up my day a bit. :)
I am amused at the argument that these are only issues for the “thin and pretty and successful and popular”. Has anyone actually read what the loons say about Rebecca Watson? They all scream that she’s fat and ugly and a loser and that no one likes her!
The issue in this thread is how dudes react to being told “no”, not how they asked originally. Your stubborn decision that this is exactly the same at elevatorgate makes it impossible for you to have a coherent discussion of the issues in the comic.
What is your obsession with rape? Rape wasn’t in the original comic, nor did PZ didn’t mention rape in his post.
Fizzy @ 237:
Was that a fucking joke?
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/statistics/statistics-academic-studies/
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/2009/08/high-rates-of-subway-sexual-harassment-in-korea-and-japan/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12771938
No one has ever said that men are NOT also victims of harassment or rape. The question is one of scale, and even a fuckwit like you should be able to review the facts and gain some understanding of the sheer scope of the problem.
Zerple,
Read this now, before you continue calling anybody here a troll. What you mean by the word and what everybody else does are not the same thing. In fact, what you’re complaining about is pretty much par for course here, so if it bothers you that much you may want to consider moving on to greener pastures.
Markle:
Well, fuck.
Hear that, ladies? We can’t judge for ourselves what constitutes a “real problem”, so Markle has graced us with his presence and shown us the light! Women aren’t smart enough to judge what is or is not a problem, eh Markle? Silly ladies, thinking that we might know what we’ve been through.
Thank goodness you’ve said something, though! I wouldn’t want my fluffy pink lady-brainz to overheat with all of that difficult thinking!
Markle #445:
Because refusal to take a straight “no” seriously is not indicative of anything.
And neither is the assumption that women are automatically duplicitous.
Markle – it’s really not about wanting to be asked out differently. It’s about wanting to not be asked in inappropriate places; it’s about not being told “you look sexy today” at my desk, in my office; it’s about feeling confident that if I say no, I’m not interested, that my no will be listened to and respected; it’s about the fact that nerd =/= man; it’s about being treated like an adult not a walking vulva.
I’m neither pretty, nor thin, nor young, I am white, educated and a woman. Are any of those reasons that I shouldn’t be treated like a human?
h
Yes, it is the fucking topic at hand. Your words are telling: For shit’s sake, I’ve already had a righteously fucked up morning and now we’ve got this broken-down, fucking asshole telling us what “feminism” is. Somebidy call the fucking WAAAA-mbulance. Do you honestly expect me ore anyone to sanction you taking your bullshit out on anyone? Youy’re having a bad fucking morning? My friend was just found dead 12 hours ago. You know what I was doing? I was only one of two people that actually treated Ben(on TET) like a fucking person.
If you want to fucking bash some men without seeing that some women have a fucking part in the miscommunications, then fuck off and start your own fucking man stereotyping blog and go act like you have the right to take your anger out on men somewhere else. Or not, but you ain’t got a leg to stand on, honey.
Yeah, honey. You tell me I dont take you seriously because I’m a man, and men don’t take you seriously.
You better understand that I feel insulted and belittled by that kind of stereotyping.
You want carte blanche to puke your anger and judgement out all over men, and not have to take responsibility for any return anger you evoke? Are you fucking seriously thinking you are doing any women any favors by inciting anger in men indiscriminately?
Give your head a fucking shake.
If you want respecct, then admit that some women make it difficult. I have yet to see relationship problems, or mis-communications that were solely completely one sided in fault.
You scared at certain actions? You think men expect stuff they shouldn’t? Some men are this way, no fucking doubt, and I can’t stand being with a mix of people with some asshole hitting on everything with two legs and a heartbeat.
But you go look at TV, at the women who are proud to act like sluts and tarts, at the ads in women’s mags that appeal to, and tell women to be more, sexually alluring.
There are a lot of goofs, but there are a lot of chicks playing games and it is not so simple as no means no et-fucking-cetera.
I haven’t seen to many people here admit they have been at fault, and certainly not one fucking woman.
The fucking surest way to sabotage any progress towards understanding is to fucking judge and point fingers and deny responsibility for your own part in shit.
And PZ, I don’t care if you’ve never played hard to get or said no when you meant yes, you are not everyone, and your anecdotal self report is not valid for anything except to show that you don’t have a certain type of understanding that you pretend to have, and nullify yourself on a certain level for giving advice in that area.
PZ Myers says:
18 October 2011 at 3:25 pm
I think you’ve confused yourself right into acting like a sanctimonious priest(LOL, pushing buttons!).
Everyone has difficulties communicating at least some of the time. The fucking vast majority of men mean well, I am sure. Some(most?) get mixed messages from their upbringing, media, peer groups, women, whatever, and some deserve to be told in no uncertain terms to fuck right off.
But as soon as you stop listening and discount anything that you don’t want to see or hear because it sounds inappropriate and start telling people to fuck off and go elsewhere, you are part of the game, make no fucking mistake.
Anybody who doesn’t acknowledge the heightened anger and self righteousness going on in this thread is a fucking liar. What a fucking witch hunt.
To the people that decide they judges of who should or shouldn’t be here, or who doesn’t meet your subjective standards of what is appropriate – do you really think that is proper? Really?
So I’m struggling to understand your position without making a strawman, here. Are you saying:
a) rape culture is not a “real” problem
b) the only kind of womens issue worth worrying about with regards to relationships is that of a forced marriage
c) something really dumb because you are creepy as hell
d) all of the above
?
And yet, rape is not mentioned in the original post. It’s about dating protocol.
Krasnaya Koshka, I do not mind Zerple calling me names. If I am going to dish it out, I better be able to take it. Besides, I have heard so much worse.
Zerple may be honest about trying to learn. But he expects his stupid and often offensive questions to be treated with kid gloves. And, frankly, his comparing women marrying for money with women getting raped as being equally sexist is more disgusting than anything I ever said.
@ Dr. Audley – Thank you. One of the reasons I don’t comment here a ton is because I feel mildly like a fanboy. I swear I develop a new internet-brain-crush on one of the commenters every time I dig through a thread.
Ah yes, the entirely platonic realm of dating that certainly never has anything to do with sex ever.
At least for you, apparently.
This is just fucking funny, unless you wanna admit it isn’t about elevatorgate now? You are using the test of “does PZ mention it in his post?” as the indicator of what the post is about, but he doesn’t mention elevatorgate or RW, but you insist it is about that.
I’ll explain why this has to do with rape one more time. Imagine the problem as men ignoring women who say no to them. Imagine that, and only that, as the central issue of the comic. Then imagine the entire spectrum of consequences of men ignoring women when they say “no”. Rape is one of them. So is frustration at sexism, like in the comic. As someone who experiences sexism from men I know the relationship between the two attitudes intimately. The same justifications used for rape are used for other times that men ignore the will of women, including the forced marriages you mentioned. Finding ideas that are simple, but explain a lot of complex behavior are useful in these discussions. We are discussing feminist theory here on pharyngula, and it does explain a lot, better than any alternate theories that exist. Anyone well versed in it can see the connection. it is the same way that biology looks disjointed without a good understanding of evolution, and why creationists show up over and over to ask the same questions. There is an essential puzzle piece you are missing when trying to discuss sociology and feminism related topics. If you are really interested in what it all means you could spend some time reading up on it, but I’m not holding my breath.
@ Tesseract
I’m saying exactly what I posted.
dating protocol = not a real problem
coerced marriages = real problem
I’ll just leave this here…
tushcloots, the fact that you said “some men are goofs” in that context pretty much sums up the degree to which you not only don’t get it, you have no interest in learning.
@Grumpy:
My mother does this too. It drives me bananas. As near as I can tell, she was raised to follow the man’s stated preferences and rarely acknowledge her own. It’s almost impossible to get her to SAY what sort of food she likes… I have to draw conclusions by observing what food disappears from the fridge when I’m not around.
What really burns me is that while my former partner was abusing me, *I* did the same thing – preferring whatever I was told to prefer, without even noticing. Gaaah. I’m STILL working on that.
Then I recommend you checking comment 470 where I specifically address that.
She’s versatile! The perfect imaginary antagonist for any MRA.
Markle, Rebecca Watson did not say anything about rape. Yet all sorts of menz started complaining that she yelled “RAPE”.
This thread is just one more piece in the months long meta-argument.
Assclown.
This is totally not the place to be with all that going on. Please find some support people to be around you.
That was from my post. I’m sorry I wasn’t clearer. I was trying to point out that people who are not considered attractive also have to fear unwanted sexual advances, maybe for different reasons, yes, but at bottom it isn’t about how pretty they are. It’s about people who are users and the excuses they make for why it is OK to target someone.
For all unholy fucks sake PZ. A new webcomic – with a 1000+ panel history. I haven’t got time for this, I got things to do you know. (Latest on the to-do-list: Make a economist (that isn’t the nerd)) see that the difference between men and women also is important while adding figures. FSM give me strength).
Why don’t you get off your irrelevant soapbox first?
The man in the comic tells the girl with black hair, “hi, my name is Tucker,” and invites her to “open mic night” and she gives him a “fuck off” look. The professor even beats him with a book. Sex is definitely in the cards here. Also, rape!
@468 Inane Janine
I’ve seen that repeatedly from Zerple. I’ve also seen some decent comments from him. (I’m a lurker extraordinaire and read EVERY comment on every post, because I’m quite lonely for English interaction in Russia.) So I do believe he has it in him to come around.
I’ve also seen many hopeless cases on Pharyngula so I’m not an eternal optimist.
Anyway, thank you, Janine, for being you. I do not care how profane you want to be. It’s most often warranted.
Markle: Yes, the OP is about protocol. And why women get creeped out, why it’s so very NB that you take a “no” seriously. Can you tell me in all honesty that you do not see the connection between this and rape?
PROTIP: most rapes are not strangers jumping out of the bushes and physically overpowering the virginial, preferably nun-like woman.
@Muse 444
Yea, I mean to include a clause about how they were by no means on the same scale. Didn’t mean to offend, was just trying out a mental exercise.
tushcloots:
Hey, guess what asshole, you’re not the only one who had a loved one die yesterday. I’ll give you a hint: that’s why I had a bad fucking morning.
I could really give a flying fuck about how you treated Ben. It doesn’t matter to this discussion at hand, but if you want a fucking cookie I’m sure your mom will fucking give you one.
Anyone have a link to the “Chilly Climate” article? ‘Cos this is a problem all across society– it’s not just me and my experiences.
But, do go on, obviously I’m just one of them nasty, man hatin’ feminazis who want to castrate all men or some shit.
Oh boo fucking hoo. I’ll give a rat’s ass when you actually have to calculate the risk you face from a strange woman. I’ll give you the fucking time of day when you face systematic discrimination and harassment at work. I’ll give two fucks when you face the prospect of earning less and being passed over for promotion based on your gender. I’ll care when you feel the same way that I do when you’re hit on for the umpteenth time this week and all you want is for people to listen to what you have to say, instead of acting like total fucking creepers.
Until then: shut the fuck up, shitstain. You’ve nothing to add to this discussion.
Basically, you’re saying that you don’t fucking care whether or not you push a woman into something that she doesn’t want because she might be playing games. Good for you, you fucking scumbag.
And with that, I’ve got to go pick my husband up from work. Enjoy the ass chewing you’re sure to get, tushie.
Bare asertion, citation needed.
says the dude who will never experience the sexism involved in either of them. Why don’t you ask feminists who have been through forced marriages what they think about men who ignore “no” to dates? You aren’t going to like the answer you find. You have been trying so hard to make it seem like people with “real” problems don’t give a fuck about things like casual sexism, but you’ve posted no evidence. It is because women recognize the relationship between the suffering in forced marriage, FGM, etc and casual sexism in the west. I have never heard a a woman who is fighting for equality say that other women’s priorities in feminism were trivial or stupid. The women you invoke, who do work in other countries on issues like forced marriages or sex trafficking aren’t saying what you think they are saying. Last time I checked women get to decide what sexist things are real problems because women really experience them. You don’t. Countless women have told you how they experience the sexism as hatred and you don’t give a fuck. What measure are you using to determine realness anyway?
Thank god men are around to tell us stupid women what real sexism is like, and how to deal with it. We simply couldn’t figure out our own experiences without dudes like markle showing up to invalidate them. I should really make a big list of all the shit I have been through so that he can tell me which ones are actually bad and which ones were just my silly lady brain/hysteria. That is totally how it should work, amirite?
Still, that reasoning is kind of like saying, some small number of women admit to marrying men just for money, therefore I should assume that any woman who wants to marry me is actually after my money.
“Assume” is maybe the wrong word. I’d say, “be prepared for the possibility”, and it’s certainly a reasonable thing to do in that situation. If you’ve got enough money to justify it, I’d certainly recommend getting a lawyer to draw up a basic pre-nup before you get married.
That said, this isn’t a good analogy, because if you say you want a pre-nup, people who aren’t directly involved won’t care. You won’t be subjected to a bunch of random idiots second-guessing you with arguments like, “Wait, I don’t think I’m a gold-digger. Why can’t society change itself to accommodate that fact? Clearly I’m the real victim here!”
Anyway, back to your marriage worries: The other thing that could work is if you ditch your valet in order to explore the city, and you get mugged, and a woman finds you and nurses you back to health and falls in love with you before she finds out that you’re incredibly rich. This seems to work pretty well, at least in the romantic comedies I’ve seen. I think it helps if you can arrange to get amnesia.
You’re clearly the dense one, others have tried the patient approach, so I’ll try the more direct one. That is: Shouting (sorry for shouting to you other good folks on this tread).
IT’S THE FUCKING SAME PROBLEM YOU CLUELESS TWERP!
I did. Post 285. I admitted that I also have certain critical faults that contribute to what you’re mentioning. But maybe I’m not a woman to you, because I’m fat, and when you mentally picture “women”, there are no fat women in that picture. I understand that. It’s OK; I’ll just go spend some “me” time in a way that does not involve thinking about people who pretend I don’t exist.
What I am concerned about is you dealing with the loss of your friend. Please also take some time and grieve. I may just be another anonymous Internet nerd, but I give a damn about that. We’ll hold you in our thoughts until you’re yourself again.
This doesn’t deserve a *headdesk*. You know why? Because we know you guys aren’t complete fucking idiots. It’s been clearly demonstrated ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS that no one has said anything resembling the above…so why do men keep trying to claim it’s been said?
This comes from the same mentality as “no means try harder”. You’ve decided to tell us what we mean because you don’t like the actual response.
If you browse backwards a bit, you’ll see that their first meeting was an attempted rape
Markle, the purpose of this discussion is to educate people as to what harassment is and to convince them that it is a bad thing that they should stop doing. People have changed their opinions for the better because of posts in this very thread.
Now, in that context, what are you contributing by arguing that harassment is not a real problem? I can inform you that the answer is nothing, so please stop wasting everyone’s time with your irrelevant and largely incoherent posts.
No, they’re not the same problem. They’re really not.
Typical, conflate the criticism of the actions of some men into attacking all men.
It’s almost as if she’s trying to say “you blew your chance, leave her alone.”
I’ll give you a hint, imagine a situation where a man walks up to a girl and she scowls at him to imply she doesn’t want to talk to him:
a) the man chooses to walk away, leaving her alone
b) the man continues, despite her giving him clear looks that she’s not interested.
Which of these two men is more likely to be a rapist? Don’t say “well neither of them are guaranteed” because while that may be true, which one is MORE LIKELY. I’ll give you a hint, it’s b), because he keeps going. Now imagine the woman says “I’m sorry but could you please leave me alone” and the same man from b) above can do one of two things:
a) say, “oh, okay, sorry about that” and leave
b) go, “why do I need to go?” and stay while waiting for an answer.
In this case, which would make the woman feel more uncomfortable? Which of these is the mindset of the more uncomfortable woman:
a) “I hope he’s actually gone and not going to come back, what was his problem?”
b) “Why isn’t he leaving? Is he going to keep pursuing this? How can I make him leave? How far is he going to keep pushing this?”
I’m going to give you a hint again: it’s still b), and if you haven’t figured out yet, a man who takes “no” for an answer is a hell of lot less likely to be a rapist in a person’s eyes than the fucker who never leaves despite your protestations.
Now, just because SHE has made it apparent sex is not on the cards for her does not mean the man is not going to force sex on the cards in a horribly repugnant manner. Just because you appear to be exponentially bad at this whole “talking to women without being a creeper” thing doesn’t mean every man has to be.
it is the irony that shows up whenever a discussion is about taking women’s words seriously. I’ve never been a part of an internet or IRL discussion about it where a dude doesn’t do this exact same thing. It is when you go “oh, fuck.”, and become very sad because they are in soooo deep. Too deep to really listen to what anyone else has to say.