The undying thread needs a rejuvenation. Here’s a pornographic video to get you excited.
As I mentioned, I’m away from my wife during our 30th anniversary, but she doesn’t have to worry — after seeing Australian courtship rituals, I cannot be tempted at all.
[continuing from the previous instantiation of The Thread]
negentropyeater,
Eh? Imaginary ≠ negative.
We’re arguing semantics. The key word here is ‘meaningless’.
You’ve provided an interpretation, so unless you’re a hardcore positivist, it is meaningful; that this is not congruent with observation doesn’t make it meaningless, it makes it empirically false.
With overtones, I mean, so that the tune is in the overtones. I don’t know if they’re seriously audible outside my head, though.
Free the word “Caledonian”!
Fuck censorship!
cannonball cat
Hoodlums, the progeny of criminals, all of them.
They don’t even reproduce properly, you know.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
I highly doubt anyone else can hear them. It’s probably an acoustic phenomenon only audible inside one’s own skull.
In the spirit of looking forward to Spring and freshly harvested tomatoes:
Green Tomatoes w/ Sour Cream & Havarti
1 lb – 1 1/2 lbs green tomatoes
Flour for dredging
2 Tbsp. butter
3/4 cup sour cream
1 tsp dried dill weed
1/2 cup havarti cheese, grated
Cut tomatoes into thick slices, dredge lightly in flour, and saute in the butter, in a pan with an oven proof handle, turning as needed until tender. Stir in the sour cream and dill and heat gently. Strew the Havarti over top, then pop under the broiler for a few minutes until it’s bubbly.
They don’t even reproduce properly, you know.
You have no idea. :)
Speaking of overtones – my shower has a distinct overtone above the fundamental noise it makes, a sort of metallic ringing. Until I figured out that it’s exactly the same pitch as my cell phone, I kept running out of the shower to grab the phone, only to wonder why it was never ringing.
The tone is a high F natural, in case you’re interested. But who would be? This is the kind of useless shite SpokesGay gets up to when he’s procrastinating on a writing project.
Why do they need to use artificial insemination?
Old Aussie joke: “He’s like a wombat: eats roots and leaves.”
Just because I am in that weird mood tonight, and because Australia bring this one to mind, one more video. Not a happy one, you have been warned (:
Now maybe I will go to sleep.
“He’s like a wombat: eats roots and leaves.”
For those who don’t know, roots in strine means copulates.
Patricia asked in the last thread:
Something like this would be good. Or you could be a little more formal. But the old standby is always appropriate.
I need to take up kite flying.
Man, that’s horrible! Those poor Koalas…
David Marjanović, I was wondering if you, (or any of the other really annoying people here who know lots about almost every subject under the sun) could explain to me something that has confused me for years.
How do speakers of a tonal language compose songs (ie with music and lyrics)?
Do they write the music and then pick only the words which can be sung to the music (seems very limiting), or do they do exactly as one would do in a non tonal language, thus, I presume, making the listener guess which of the possible meanings is meant (making every song rather like a cryptic crossword puzzle), or what?
Is that why I have such trouble listening to Chinese music (eg opera, which, to me, just sounds like cats fighting). I listen to, and enjoy, music from most areas of the word, but I cannot appreciate Chinese music at all.
For instance, I can listen to Cambodian (Khmer being non tonal) songs, but not Chinese, although the music itself sounds fairy similar to me.
PS I understand (but could quite easily be wrong) that modern Chinese pop uses (non tonal) slang for lyrics.
Thanks, in advance.
Josh OSG #9
IIRC John Dankworth, who died a couple of weeks ago, once defended himself against a speeding charge by claiming that he couldn’t possibly have doing 40mph because ‘the gearbox wasn’t playing that note’
Tis – Gee thanks, but I think I’d better forego the Swiss Miss outfit. The wind where I’m going is the same that makes the sailboats show their bellies (bottoms), well something. I prefer not to have my skirt blown up over my head on the kiting field. *smirk*
Anybody else seen these;
Design Detective: Episode 1
Design Detective: Episode 2
Design Detective: Episode 3
Design Detective: Episode 4
?
Kinda funny.
Patricia, is this invite from the garden show/picnic gentleman? Or is someone else dandling from your hook? ;)
One of the better covers of Michael Peter Smith’s “The Dutchman”:
I know Steve Goodman’s cover is the best known, but I don’t particularly like it. Anyway, today is an appropriate time to give a song sung by Liam Clancy and Tommy Makem.
Caine – Same gentleman. *BLUSH*
Patricia, Alright! (You know if you keep blushing like that, he’s just going to think you’re more adorable than ever.) :D
Adorable has nothing to do with it, it’s the food. ;)
Seriously, does anyone know what is appropriate for kiting? I would guess jeans, t-shirt and windbreaker. But maybe it’s cleats and knee-pants? One never knows.
All right, young lady, let’s lay down some rules:
* You will be home by 11 PM every night. You have to be bright and bushy-tailed in the morning to slop the chickens.
* No more than two glasses of wine/cans of beer in a four hour period. You need to keep your wits when out with the gentlemen.
* No sex until the sixth date. You don’t want to get a reputation as a slut.
* Remember to be lady-like in your language. The words listed below should never enter your vocabulary. No man likes to hear V*gemite discussed by a date.
Depending on chilly it is, substituting a sweatshirt for the t-shirt might be advisable. That is what I’ve seen the Redhead’s sister wearing when flying kites at the beach. The SIL lives in the valley near OSU, and crossed the coastal range to the beach.
Patricia:
I have friends who do the ‘serious huge kites which lift you up’ kiting, and jeans, t-shirt and windbreaker is what they normally wear. You might want to pack a sweater in case it gets cooler than you anticipate, but that’s all I can think of to add.
Maybe Patricia should wear lead-weighted diving boots, just to be safe?
Here’s something for that suicidal mood from the last thread. Sunny ‘n’ cheerful just don’ cut it. Lardsakes, he’s so young in that one.
Patricia, you might want to wear your shades too; if all goes well you’ll be looking up a lot. You’ll notice I did not mention If He Um, never mind.
Another lullaby with an interesting tension between song and performance.
Slainche, everybody!
FUCK EUPHEMISM WEEK
VEGEMITE SUCKS DANK MOONEY COCK
hmmm…I must’ve typo’ed
Well, I’ve had a few Guinesses for that bastard snake-handler. Maybe a Jameson too.
my daughter’s part Irish
*looks around*
this particular subThread looks extra large
Sven, your heroic vulgarity is appreciated.
Redgums classic anti war song about our mistreatment of Vietnam Vets still makes the hair on the back of my next stand up and brings a tear to the eye. I’ve met many of these guys, some the older brothers of friends and what they and in fact all veterans went and are still going through is horrific. Even an uncle who was involved in the Malayan and Sandakan campaigns in WWII still occasionally gets that haunting stare that you only see from someone who has seen combat.
With ANZAC day coming up next month I will again be attending the service then afterward raising a glass to him and his peers. Because of them I’ve not had to face what they did.
Looks remarkably convincing. Especially because the cat seems to agree.
Depends. In northern China, the tones are ignored in singing (and sometimes this makes the lyrics difficult to understand). In southern China, people try to fit the tune and the tones of the lyrics to each other, somehow.
There is no such thing as “non-tonal slang”…
I haven’t actually ever heard Chinese opera. Other genres seem unremarkable to me.
ROTFL!
Spelled Sláinte in Ireland and Slàinte in Scotland. What happens to the t, phonetically, is a consequence of the e after it and the silent i in front of the consonant cluster.
Sven : It’s a Sub-Thread ?
I suppose it’s pining for a Dom Thread somewhere.
. . .
Tis @26 – Oh dear! Sixth date…well, I’ll just have to tighten my laces, there can’t be anyone thinking I’d do anything sluttish.
Caine – Thanks, that’s what I wondered. I didn’t know if kiting was like golf or polo, and had some special garb. Yes, this gent does peri-fols, stunt kites and all such manner of serious stuff.
Missed out on posting this at the end of the previous Thread, but everyone take Walton’s hit and click on Ol’ Greg’s name to hear her music. Good stuff!
Cowcakes @36, it gives me that feeling, too.
“I was only 19”. Says it all, really.
Cowcakes
My Dad’s a Vietnam vet. He was a surgeon in the RAN during the time aboard the HMAS Duchess and the HMAS Vampyre ( surely the military ship in the planet with the COOLEST name)and was seconded to an American Army base on land for about 2 years.
He doesn’t talk about it but somewhere he has a training vid he made with the Americans which was intended for incoming medical personnel eyes only to give them a heads up on what they were in for in terms of medical work. Its absolutely painfully real and horrific.
Any how I’ve been to every dawn service since I was about 7 and so will my kids and hopefuly I’ll get to take them to the Gallipoli peninsula as my parents took us.
[meta]
Enough of coyness:
Patricia, too late (and a good thing, too!);)
(Hint, hint. Take it as it comes.)
Love ya.
John, I think Patricia’s gentleman is looking to sweep her off her feet with the kite date. ;D
Hey, wait! That koala’s pouch is facing the wrong way! It opens down instead of up! Who designed this thing? Anyway?
Oooh, Patricia, a kite date. That sounds like fun. I hope it goes well. :)
Ring Tailed Lemurian:
Gyeong Hwa Pak will also have a lot of answers for you. Shamefully, although I am part Chinese, I wouldn’t have a clue.
[emphasis mine]
Sorry, I cannot resist linking to this.
Now, now, I’m a respectable widow… this is only a third date.
You naughty minded things!
It’s fraud day over to the house. C’mon in, set a spell, take yer shoes off.
“Slainche”
Spelled Sláinte in Ireland and Slàinte in Scotland.
Yesh, I know. Ash it’sh Amateur Night, I’m gettin a jump on ’em.
I got all dolled up in my least-wrinkled aloha shirt and snake earrings and seized the chance to see a garden when a Chron fotog met its designer at his client’s place. (Follow that? Never mind.) Client was in mid-remodel, installing the Butchest Bathroom Evah, all tile with shower stall, plumbing for a sink, and a urinal. Period. So to speak.
Fortunately I bit my tongue for a moment and then realized that that probably wasn’t the only bathroom; I mean this was clearly not an overnight job. So I didn’t blurt the obvious question. I guess I’m just not the investigative-journalist type.
Patricia, the other thing about a sport that involves looking up a lot* is that the participants frequently need neckrubs afterwards.
*Warbler Neck, q.v.
That koala’s pouch is facing the wrong way!
Clearly it’s a transitional species, on its way to marsupial bat-hood. A veritable crocoduck!
phantomreader42 has written a most beautiful post, it deserves wider attention:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/kent_hovind_is_still_in_jail_a.php#comment-2358405
What Caine said.
#10?
I’m with you SC, I don’t see why they need AI. *snort*
ronsullivan – Thank you, I think I will look forward to a neck rub…this being my first time kiting, no doubt I’ll need one. :)
SC – not knowing anything in particular about these marsupials, but in general for AI:
One of the biggest issues is genetic variability. You don’t want to let them get too inbred when there aren’t that many to start with, so it’s often fairly tightly controlled as to who “ought to” mate with whom to ensure that maximum genetic diversity is kept. That might not quite match the animal’s own ideas on who to mate with, so AI takes out that fussiness.
Speaking of fussiness, animal mating is all sorts of screwed up for any that are in captivity, so often they just don’t feel like it no matter how attractive the potential mate is; not the right environment, space, mood lighting, etc.
Going back to the variation, it’s easier to mail around bunches of syringes full of gametes rather than moving the animals themselves across continents and whatnot.
That’s just a few potential reasons off the top of my exhausted and overworked head, so hopefully they’re in any way relevant and I won’t come back tomorrow to find that I somehow wrote out Josh’s Gay Enchilada recipe in the comment box rather than anything actually about AI.
SC,
No need, is there. Prudent, it is; prudent, and scientific.
</Yoda>
I’ve been catching up on the Thread this evening, and now I’m feeling all melancholy after listening to Puff the Magic Dragon, Smile, and You Are My Sunshine.
Here’s the Dixie Chicks singing Silent House.
These walls have eyes
Rows of photographs
And faces like mine
Who do we become
Without knowing where
We started from
It’s true I’m missing you
As I stand alone in your room
Everyday that will pass you by
Every name that you won’t recall
Everything that you made by hand
Everything that you know by heart
And I will try to connect
All the pieces you left
I will carry it on
And let you forget
And I’ll remember the years
When your mind was clear
How the laughter and life
Filled up this silent house
One room
Two single beds
In the closet hangs
Your favorite dress
The books that you read
Are in scattered piles
Of paper shreds
Everything that you made by hand
Everything that you know by heart
And I will try to connect
All the pieces you left
I will carry it on
And let you forget
And I’ll remember the years
When your mind was clear
How the laughter and life
Filled up this silent house
Silent house
In the garden off the living room
A chill fills the air
And the lilies bloom
And I will try to connect
All the pieces you left
I will carry it on
And let you forget
And I’ll remember the years
When your mind was clear
How the laughter and life
Filled up this
And I will try to connect
All the pieces you left
I will carry it on
And let you forget
And I’ll remember the years
When your mind was clear
How the laughter and life
Filled up this silent house
Silent house
Pygmy Loris @59, AFAIK, this is my first listen to this.
So sad, so life-affirming. Thanks.
John M,
It’s one of my favorite songs, but I always have to skip past it when I’m driving because it makes me cry. Silent House is from Taking the Long Way, the album the Dixie chicks made after the big controversy over Natalie Maines comments in England.
Just watched a Nat Geo doco about how LSD research is coming back. Apparently the shape of the LSD molecule allows it to click right into serotonin receptors.
Stop me if you’ve heard this one, but they’ve made a non-hallucinogenic form called bromo-LSD or something, which is a miracle cure for cluster headaches.
ambulocetacean:
That’s interesting. If it really works on cluster headaches, there will be a lot of very grateful people.
Just found out that Alex Chilton died. Like any indie rock fan of the eighties and nineties, Big Star was one of my favs. I am going to indulge now.
September Gurls
Stroke It Noel
Back Of A Car
Hi Caine,
Yeah, I’d never heard of cluster headaches before but they look absolutely horrible. This guy in the doco was rolling around on the floor sucking an oxygen tank to try to get some relief.
If I had them and they were as bad as they look on telly I think I would have topped myself ages ago. The doco is an instalment of Nat Geo’s excellent “Inside” current-affairs series.
Like a lot of people in the eighties, The Replacements was to entry point for this bliss.
I never travel far without a little Big Star.
When My Baby’s Beside Me
Thirteen
Sorry, haven’t been following, but this is what a cluster headache feels like.
ambulocetacean, a friend of mine gets them. He would do anything to not have that pain in his life anymore. Cluster headaches are also known as Suicide headaches.
I get severe migraines myself, and the pain my friend has described is much worse than what happens to me; given what I feel during a migraine, I can easily imagine suicide might seem like a viable option.
Please clarify. Traditional Chinese and Cambodian songs are vastly different. Modern Khmer Pop songs, OTHO, are often cheap translation of Chinese/Korean/Japanese originals.
Ah. How sweet it is to have finished a whole chapter for an upcoming book. After procrastinating my ass off all day.
Yes, yes, thank you – you’re right – I do deserve kudos. You’re all so gracious-and so right-to throw flowers at me! It was a difficult, emotionally and intellectually draining journey. Who among us, save a select few, can understand the agony of the writer? The depths to which he must plunge, fearlessly, to dredge up Some Kind of Crap to Fill a Page.
Oi. I’m makin’ me’self sick!
Re: John Morales@1
It isn’t necessary to consider v>c if you know what’s necessary for an object to approach the speed of light.
The equation for kinetic energy would require an infinite amount of energy for any object to reach the speed of light. This is the simplest reason that only massless particles can travel at the speed of light. Special relativity precludes anything traveling faster than light. Formula for Relativistic Kinetic Energy
Janine:
I’m ignorant, and clearly need any education. I have no idea who Alex Chilton is. I never heard the song “September Gurls” until the Bangles covered it. Yes, I know, this makes you want to smack me, and you may.
excellent response, I’d say. Dixie Chicks = Win
:-)
This is very, very funny satire wrt #atheistcon :
http://newmatilda.com/2010/03/17/hell-atheist-convention
Further to Janine:
OK, now I’m mad about my ignorance. Apparently the original lyrics to “September Gurls” included:
. . .yet all I got was the sanitized version:
I was cheated. And now I’m out for blood. With a chainsaw. Sideways (I’m lookin’ at you, KirshenooneyKwak).
Gyeong Pickachu, Imperial Dim Sum, or whatever it is you’re going by today – take this as a lesson. Know how I’m always poking gentle (but slightly biting) fun at you for being young and unaware of anything beyond your generation? Well, this is what happens. We end up with soaped-over cover songs that sanitize real sh*t. You’re not immune. Mind carefully:)
Caine, G-d that sounds horrible. Apparently psilocybin can help as well.
My Google-fu is weak today, but I’m sure anyone who’s interested can track down stuff about LSD/psilocybin trials that have been done at Harvard and some university in Iowa and also Germany and/or Switzerland.
The Ballad Of El Goodo
Femme Fatale
Holocaust
John,
Yeah, it is — that’s how one knows its significance and what is necessary.
The equation says that as v→c, mass → ∞ (and the object’s length (in the direction of travel) → 0); hence, for a mass m to reach c requires infinite energy and would result in it becoming infinitesimal in size (in the direction of travel).
It establishes limits, and thus avoids paradoxes.
But I’m so use to washed cover songs. By default I assume the naughty version is the original.
As to be expected, at your tender age. You’ll learn.
ambulocetacean:
Wow. I didn’t know that. I’ll do some looking around and let my friend know about all this.
A friend of mine’s mother once asked him if he was experimenting with LSD. Without skipping a beat, he replied: “It’s more like full-blown research.”
Seriously, though, it’s about time the DEA got over their amide/amine phobia and allow research into the quite novel effects these substances have on the brain.
The friend I mentioned above spent many years working for MAPS. I believe they are the organization responsible for the cluster headache research, though I may be mistaken.
/googles-off to dig deeper
winner in the “missing the point” category of worst cover songs ever: My Generation butchered by Hilary Duff.
the original
*clenched-fist salute*
Big Black Car
In The Street
Watch The Sunrise
Josh, my dear fake husband, I have other reasons to smack you upside the face. But not for not knowing about a rather obscure band that came to an end thirty five years ago. As it stands, I love power pop. And Big Star was about as good as it got.
Hi Caine. Happy to help, but I’m not a doctor. Your friend should probably consult a real physician, or at least a blissed-out hippie :)
@Janine:
Sigh. I’m sure all my fake wives do. Smack away – I shall bear up SpokesGayfully. (Was it the whole “Imperial Dim Sum” thing I said to our little pocket monster? If so, don’t bother. He had it coming. Little sh*t: ‘Sides, it was funny:)
I’m glad to be introduced to them, nonetheless.
Speaking of cover songs and Asian pop music, it seems to me that whenever a song is released, it becomes imperative that every nation makes a cover of that song.
For example: 1, 2, 3, and 4.
Note that the 3 says 9999 while the 4 is completely off topic.
I just lost 9.36 minutes of my life watching the whole Lady Ga Ga telephone thing. What a big load of overhyped, bollocky, shite.
I feel mentally abused.
BTW, PZ, time to ditch the GAC promo from the sidebar…
since SC mentioned them, here’s more Dixie Chicks:
Sin Wagon
Goodbye Earl
:-)
Josh OSG
..see now, me, I prefer it a little rough so can I be a fake wife of Locutus of Gay instead?
Bride of Shrek:
Well, her music ain’t my thing, but I can’t get all up on my high horse, considering I hung on Madonna’s every utterance in the 80s. I suspect pop music sensibility is a generational thing, and there’s no way around it.
I do, however, think GaGa has the most highly polished videos out there, from a visual point of view. Love the outrageous costumes. They’re just ridiculous.
Oh, and I LOL’ed at the opening titles of that video, when it said, “Prison for Bitches.” Like something out of a John Waters movie. . .
Yeah, I LOL’ed. And I’ll LOL again.
(ducking and running)
And I know it’s faintly racist to laugh at Japanese karaoke game shows but anyone who doesn’t get a chuckle out of this is a liar. Ans they are in some strange way suprisingly good. Specially Springsteen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdsxjSZFuTo&feature=player_embedded
Jadehawk @92, “This video contains content from Vevo, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.”
:(
(Yeah, I could search, but it’s a disappointment regardless.)
Bride of Shrek:
I speak for the Borg. Lower your lingerie (but take care to keep your modesty panels in place) and prepare to be assimilated. Fashion as you know it has come to an end. Your sartorial distinctiveness will be added to our own ( maybe). Resistance (or, frankly, choosing your own outfits) is futile.
Comply.
ambulocetacean, no worries. :) I’ll let him know about the research, he has a good doc he can discuss all this with and I know plenty of blissed out hippies. :D
Yeah Josh you betetr duck and run
Go and stand in the corner NOW. The gay one. That’s be the one painted pink.
ok, I must admit I did like the dancing because it’s really really co-ordinated and I, who has to be incredibly inebriated anyhow to be coaxed to dance, always looks like I have a ferret up my knickers.
(Was it the whole “Imperial Dim Sum” thing I said to our little pocket monster? If so, don’t bother. He had it coming. Little sh*t: ‘Sides, it was funny:)
?
?
?
?
Leeks
oh bloody hell, seriously? *headdesk*
almost all decent music videos on youtube are on vevo now :-(
Kizza Me
Dream Baby Revisited
No Sex
It appears I have forgotten a blockquote tag.
Closed it for you, Pikachu.
I find you simultaneously adorable, vexing, and in need of a good slapping-around. I shall deal with you tomorrow.
/SpokesGay to bed
alright, slightly crappier versions of the two songs:
and from metacafe, with the video: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/203364/goodbye_earl_a_killer_video/
Gyeong, Josh: You’re amusing me no end, and I’m straight as an arrow! :)
Janine hates the Dixie Chicks.
Re: John Morales @79
I feel you’re being deliberately dense. The reason it’s unnecessary to consider v > c is because it’s impossible for v to reach c. As v?c, Ke??.
Since v can never reach c, values of v > c are meaningless. Since you can never reach c, by definition you can never exceed c. It’s not necessary to consider the imaginary result of v > c, because the domain of v does not include speeds greater than c.
Why didn’t you end up coming?
Jadehawk, thanks.
Of those, I like the 3rd the best; but then I’ve always preferred studio-recorded music to live tracks.
(I do have a personal friend who is and has been a muso (and who I’ve known since high-school) and we have discussed this; we each understand the other’s viewpoint¹. I regret to say I’m a tad uncultured.)
—
¹ “Live not Canned” is one of the stickers on his van. And he’s good.
SC and Jadehawk,
How lovely to see other Dixie Chicks fans around these parts :)
I’m really regretting my inability to stop reading about painful conditions once they’re mentioned. I am so very happy that I only have migraines and tension headaches. Cluster headaches sound horrifying. Trigeminal neuralgia sounds even worse. What kind of pain must a condition cause that 10% of sufferers commit suicide?
Another painful condition, platypus envenomation. Nerve blocks are the only thing that works.
Ah yes, I forgot to explain my new moniker. This song should cover it. There are multiple covers of this song of course.
Well that’s just
meus.Cowcakes, John, Bride of Shrek – I salute your uncle, father, friends. The treatment of all veterans has been pretty bad worldwide and I am sorry to hear that it is the same in Australia. All modern wars have their own music – memory evokers. However, Redgum’s song is the only one I know that seems to catch in the throat of pretty much all veterans, at least those who speak enough English to follow it. I have given it to or played it for vets from the Spanish Civil War International Brigades to Afghanistan and it has always resonated. Sometimes the resonance is, “please do not ever play that for me again”.
BOS, your Dad spent two years pulling medical duty in Nam? Gawds, that is awful. I was an SF medic and that was horrible enough. I cannot imagine spending two years in a hospital working with wounded every day. I do not have that kind of courage. Modern war produces some hideous wounds, especially when the opposing force relies heavily on improvised weapons and feces smeared punji stakes. Vietnam had a horrendous variety of wounds. Twenty-five years later I developed a cyst on my back that, upon removal, contained a small screw from a home made device. A friend of mine still has to dress and clean a wound on his leg that he picked up in 1969. It has never healed properly – a physical manifestation of an internal issue is what he thinks.
Most of the wars waged have been unnecessary, but the people who fought them still suffered and suffer still.
Specifically for our Aussie friends, have you seen the movie Australian movie Kokoda? It is about the stand of Australian troops in New Guinea early in the Pacific war. It is one of those movies that gave me nightmares, which is usually a pretty good indication of how well it conveys the mood of war. Due to terrain and weather type it is also evocative of conditions in Vietnam. I do recommend the movie, would just warn vets that it is a nightmare inducer.
Kel,
I’m quite shy, and I’m slack, and a touch anthro.
Not very admirable, but there you go.
PS sold my place in early January, moving from the Barossa to the new place I’ve bought in the Adelaide Hills Council area, on April 1. Really.
PPS since I’m moving soon, I have few qualms about revealing the location of my current residence: 34°42’28.22″S, 139° 5’30.94″E.
Nice, nah?
Fair enough. Just too bad, we would have had 4 Molly winners in the same place :P (plus it was superfun awesome time)
John Morales,
would have been good to have you there, in fact we missed you, the one of the regular contingent not there ! I’m sure we’re no less socially awkward than you, but I think we managed ok in the end…:-)
I was surprised given how socially awkward I normally am how unawkward that entire weekend was.
Pygmy Loris:
Well, that takes the shine off of platypus charm. Eeesh.
JeffreyD
The sadness of it all is the deep founded repurcussions it had not only for the vet such as my Dad but sadly the family as well. I started this post thinking it may be deeply cathartic for me but it’s also incredibly painful. I find I can say online to “strangers” what I have never said in real life.
Growing up with my Dad was “interesting”. He is an incredibly intelligent man with a fantastic sense of humour but , at the same time savagely and profoundly remote. I was born in 1970 so I do not remember the time he was away at war but my mother has related how very difficult it was for her, with 4 small children being moved from naval base to naval base without any support. This of course continued after he returned and left the Navy in 1975. My older sister ( I’m No 2) copped the brunt of this as she endured 16 different schools at primary level. I only went to 7. This in itself gave life long issues in that I, with my constant mnoving schools became the class clown or the joker to make friends quickly. I still struggle with this shallow way to introduce myself to new people.
I was about 20 when I realised I had never, in my life, ever experienced any physical closeness from my father, never a hug nor a kiss yet I had spent many wonderful hours with him. I had never known any different so I never knew this was not “normal”. This has coloured my relationships with partners and, quite franklly, I think I still suck at being intimate and loving in a “real” relationship. I find it awkward and uncomfortable to hug and kiss and I am devestatingly bad at “goodbyes”.I hate holding hands. I will walk away from someone without turning my back rather than see tears or hurt. My brother and 2 sisters are the same.
This of course is without the actual physical problems we endured. The loss of a brother at 2 weeks old which was put down to an undiagnosed problem but he was covered in the same rash my father came back with and endured for years post war. We all “caught” this rash and I remember a childhood of rashes, itchiness, disfiguration and bathing in a dandruff hair product in our baths because it was the only thing that brought relief. It is noted my father worked in areas that Agent Orange was routinely sprayed.
So the aftermath, after the physical is the psycholgical which extends sadly to the next generation. Out of the 4 siblings I have, 1 is a chronic alcoholic, 1 has OCD, 3 have had eating disorders and between us we’ve had 5 failed marriages.
I wil not let this extend to the next generation though. I hug my 3 children often and freely and do not have a problem doing so.
War fucking sucks.
John Morales, there was some loose talk about getting people together some time next year, and Adelaide was suggested as a possible destination; would you come down from the hills for that?
The Django way. Works for me.
Argh… I may have spoken too soon about my “recovery”. After a night of violent coughing fits, high temperature, headache, sore throat, and waking up drenched in sweat, I’m not too sure that this is what “recovery” is meant to feel like. I think I’m going to call the doctor now.
(My previous post was held for moderation, because I forgot about euphemism week and inadvertently said f*ck.)
Wowbagger @120
You’re being coy there with the “Adelaide” invitation. As I remember it was specifically YOUR HOUSE that was going to be the location of the next Aussie get together. We can bring tents but I hope your plumbing is up to a 100 or so visitors.
I’m only coming if you and I can go on a wine tour though and get hopelessly pissed together (again!)
And now, some Psychobilly:
Horrorpops
Mad Sin
Nekromantix
:-)
/Pharyngula physician mode
Walton, get yourself some Roxithromycin or Klarithromycin for your friggin atypical pneumonia already, and stop tempting me to post the manflu clip….
/end Pharyngula physician mode
Wowbagger @120, um. Maybe.
I shan’t rule it out, scary as it sounds. Strangely enough, I’ve never gotten my car driver’s license, though I’ve been riding bikes since 1977 (currently my 2003 GSX750F, nearly 90K on the clock).
If I travel to town for an evening, I can’t afford to be bibulous. :(
My wife has the car.
—
John @108,
Assuming that equation is correct, then yes.
Alas, We don’t know what we don’t know, nor can we be sure we’re apprehending primary phenomena.
Re discussions above: I freakin’ love the Dixie Chicks.
This is probably their best song.
Nice pic from the staff party of the #atheistcon on Sunday arvo here:
http://podblack.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/GAC-presenters-and-crew.jpg
(via Kylie)
Dear Walton,
I fear you have the violent flu-like symptoms that accompany an original infection of herpes. You haven’t been fellating yourself while sporting a cold sore have you?
If you can definitely rule that out then get help. But don’t forget to keep posting from the ICU.
SB
PS Did someone say we are all going to get pissed at Wowbaggy’s? I have to cross the tasman ditch soon for work and I could do with somewhere to rest my weary head.
No doubt this “work” involves passing off some powdered ram semen as a “patent remedy” to unsuspecting Australians. :-)
Yes, it’s impossible to get particles which have their velocity below c (i.e, time-like) above it.
However, if a particle starts off with velocity greater than c then, conversely, it is impossible to get their velocity below c for similar reasons.
As I understand it, it is thought that a world with tachyons (i.e, particles with velocity greater than c) that interact with normal matter would be unstable because normal particles could just emit a tachyon at any time.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon
Erm… nope. We’re actually over to milk the Australian rams. Like most Ockers they have a lower sperm count, thus less wastage of potent little swimmers in the dehydrating process.
Fortunately, 3 OMs are sufficient to summon Captain PZ.
Must be weird for PZ to have the bacon-fueled orgies rotate clockwise*.
__
* I’m aware that that’s a myth. The Coriolis effect determining the motion of drainage, that is. The Pharyngula orgies are very real.
Well, I’d love to play host but I live in a two-bedroom flat – and one of those is referred to, quite accurately, as the abode of the ‘spare room boxes of death’; my backyard would allow one small tent, tops.
Basically, anything more than a dozen (or a baker’s if everyone’s open-minded) would be the max.
..and my nepotism will show here but it should really have been 4. Rorschach helped with the “herding of cats” that was the Pharyngula get together in Melbourne. That, and the usual quality of his posts over the last few years HAS to have him get a Molly ASAP.
If Rorschach doesn’t finally get his well deserved Molly in March I’ll hold my breath until I turn blue.
Wowbagger
..everyone else can fend for themselves. I’m assuming you have at least a double bed so I’m set for the duration.
Do you prefer righties or lefties on the bed? I can bring my own pillow.
I hear there are hotels in Adelaide…:-)
And that Molly thing is for clever people…..
Smoggy,
But of course! Quality over quantity.
(Admission: Kiwis lack the latter, not the former.)
Rorschach,
Damnit, you’re (over)due one, except that the rules don’t favour your style. Damnit!
Rorschach
..I am living, breathing proof that you can get one just for being a smartarse alone (well actually thats not true, Smoggy is floating here with me).
Apart from some very early on postings, circa 2 years ago, with some GW denialists when I exhausted the sum knowledge of my science background in microclimatology fighting them, basically everything else I’ve posted since has been bollocks. I am a living example of someone restng on their laurels.
Australian National University Job advertisement:
Mammalian Biologist
duties include:
masturbating male marsupials
inseminating female marsupials
please send resume to [email protected]
note all applicants must undergo an Australian Police Name Check
Here’s a really interesting interview with the woman Lady Gaga makes out with in the new Telephone video.
@Walton: on three occasions I’ve had something that started as a simple little cold, settled to my chest and left me coughing for weeks, and it needed antibiotics to clear the pneumonia and a ventolin inhaler to stop the cough. The good news is that once you actually get down to your doctor for that prescription, you get better!
I saw the college nurse this morning. Apparently, in addition to the original viral infection, I now have tonsillitis and need antibiotics.
I rather like Lady Gaga…but I think both the song and the video Telephone sucks.
WTF?
Apparently Ray Comfort is giving away leather jackets he made himself to atheists by draw. This SO needs to be Pharyngulated. It would go nice with the iPod PZ got from Eric Hovind.
In any case, this leather working needs to be encouraged. At least then Ray Comfort is actually doing something useful.
Bill Dauphin if you read this, I sent you an email and entered a bracket for you but if you can check your email add your bracket to the group with the info I sent you.
If anyone is still interested there is still a few hours to jump in the Pharyngula NCAA bracket “challenge”.
Bride of Shrek at #119 – “War fucking sucks.” No argument from me.
Bride, I hope you did get some catharsis from your post. I always hesitate to post some of these things because I know it can hurt others. I dislike the idea that my detox can hurt others. I am glad you hug and love your kids even though you can not easily be intimate with others. I can be intimate with friends, and also hug and kiss my kids. Of course, as an American Southerner, physical intimacy is normal for me, even though it was not present directly in my family.
I am sorry about your father and about his medical issues. I was lucky and the only physical manifestations I have are scars and burns. Other family members were not so lucky. My second oldest brother died in Autumn 08 from a variety of medical problems, complicated by his extensive exposure to Agent Orange. Everyone except the Government agreed that AO was a major factor in his medical issues. I blogged about so I will not go down that road again
The wounds of war touch family, friends, generations. It is hard for vets to talk to non vets, but I have found it is useful to try. Not sure why it is useful exactly. It is, tho. Writing here helps, even though, like I said, I wonder about bringing pain to others. You are correct, sometimes easier to talk to “strangers”.
Of the four kids, two siblings were also male and are vets. Both are/were alcoholics or drug abusers. I avoided that – I am just a badly glued together chain smoker who can often only be safely wakened from across the room.
If people want me to quit going down these dark alleys, just say so. They are a bit of a downer.
Bride of Shrek and JeffreyD,
If you can do it without upsetting yourselves unduly then do, please, keep posting about these things. There are too many people, including those making decisions about war, who simply have no idea.
My Dad and his cousin/best friend both served on the Western Front. The latter was weird for the rest of his life and played a part in my having a distressing adolescence. Dad had endless health problems and, essentially, died in 1952 from a head wound then treated as minor and inflicted in 1917. Neither could talk about their experiences.
My late partner – a POW in Korea – knew he ought to get some of it out of his system but could only really talk when he sometimes had a sort of malaria episode. He was more or less coherent despite the shakes but it took that to unblock the defences and allow him to describe his experience.
Of course it must be up to each of you to decide what to say, when and to whom but in my book more honest talk should mean fewer stupid wars.
No, I’m not suggesting it could end all war but too many wars in my lifetime have been willy-waving exercises and those we do not need.
Dixie Chicks not my thing (not much of a country fan)… but allow me to introduce you to Charlotte Martin…
Sorry I did not join the the DC lovefest last night. The lead of one of my favorite bands died yesterday. I did not see the point in listening to a band I have no use for.
Soooo…. many…. posts.
I’ll have to catch up. I went out for happy hour yesterday. But then we went to another place and then another and the band was awful, and people kept buying rounds. But rounds of Jameson are not like rounds of beer. Oh my.
Scrolling… hey Walton got medical attention finally!
Thank you, Bride of Shrek and JeffreyD. I am a disabled vet (non-combat). I was in MI and never saw a day of combat. Never even got posted overseas. I admire all who serve, and those who serve in combat have my sympathy. And, in a small way, my understanding.
In September, 2001, I was on the fire call out list. This means that I could be called up and sent across the country to a forest fire, hurricae of other federal incident. I was at work when the terrorist attack happened. I was called that Friday and sent to New York City where I spent three weeks providing security for the team providing support for the search and rescue teams.
Because I was one of the few easterners, they all assumed I was comfortable driving in New York City (easy — drive as aggresively as possible except when it is a taxi or a bus) which meant that, on multiple occasions, I was down at ground zero.
I still have panic attacks and nightmares. the panic attacks (and the ensuing nightmares) are usually associated with smell — the smell of putrefaction, the smell of burned metal, the smell of burned plastic. Oddly, I have come to associate these smells with fanatacism — in my mind, the smell of extreme religion. Those three weeks I visited a bar every evening for some self-medication. Drank more in those three weeks than I normally do in a year.
This morning I passed a dead dear while behind a trucker who was riding his brakes. I had to pull off for about five minutes to let the wave pass through me. Same thing happened a year and a half ago, ironically enough, on September 11.
I know it affects my family but I try to answer, honestly and without rancour, any questions about those weeks. I don’t force my memories on them, but I try to be willing to talk about it so that there is not a wall between us.
Sorry for being maudlin, there. Seeing the comments about veterans, coupled with the damned dead deer and normal road smells, I just had to say it, or write it. This seemed like an apropos setting.
wow…thanks
teh Thread takes another turn
Although I don;t hate the Dixie Chicks (not like I hate, say, Styx), I just have never made time for them. Perhaps a listen to the links above will test that.
Here’s someone I used to be in love with:
http://www.spike.com/video/nanci-griffith-i/2793580
Sven your bracket isn’t filled out yet….
You have 30 mins.
shit!
I was waiting for an e-mail but not checking the right account!
On it!
you’ve still got 15 mins…
Sorry – I was kind of trolling. :/ I’m not actually a fan of the Dixie Chicks, but I liked Shut Up and Sing and that song (and a few others).
This is proving to be a painful but beautiful thread to read.
I would share a bit about my parents after the war (my mother moved to the country) but I’m actually incredibly private about other people and can’t stand thinking I may have said something that the other person might feel was too private.
So instead I’ll just say a very general war is horrid and some of my friends who have been returning from it are doing so in a way that makes me very very sad and gravely aware of the impact it has on everyone.
Oh and Bill… thanks so much! I’m trying to get better quickly. I really hadn’t been able to sing for the past month, and I had been trying to improve my voice up until that point. It’s rather sad. Currently I’m trying to get myself ready to try desperately to play some little venues around town. I’d really like to play live again but I never have done it *alone* and I’m terrified!
The Box Tops?
just kidding; Big Star, right? Chilton was talented, no doubt.
Does anyone know if the Kwak has sent his complaint to Seed yet ?
I just read this earlier. So sad. That is three musicians I loved who have died this year now :(
Warning, topic dropping in from nowhere.
Further warning, this has undoubtedly been answered before and at length, but I stay away from the undying threads because, well, I’m too obsessive-compulsive to read them only partway through.
On to the question:
What science blogs/feeds do people read regularly just to keep on top of new discoveries? I get the Bad Astronomy daily digest but am looking for something to add.
Feel free to direct me to previous answers on this topic and I’ll go away quietly. Thanks.
Yes. They didn’t take us off the internet though and now there is a vid of his reaction youtube:
I’m bad for this :(
Yes. You are. Very bad. Dammit I can’t believe i sat through that whole thing… although I can totally imagine Kwakadoodle beating himself upside the head with his shoe like that…
also, I swear I heard the kid demanding a camera from his mom…
Nah, That can’t be the Kwak.
The kid is too coherent for one.
Ol’Greg, I am assuming this is one of whom you are talking about.
Hi Endless Thread!
I have a dilemma that needs worked out.
Tomorrow afternoon, after I get home from work, I am going to bring my parents into my apartment. They’ll be happy and jovial because we’re spending the day on Saturday at a few museums here in DC. I am halfway sure that will all immediately change upon my parents seeing my bookshelf, and upon said shelf will be the following books: “The God Delusion” and “Why Evolution is True.”
You see, my parents are fundie Christians. They believe the Bible as much as any fundie, my father thinks Glenn Beck is brilliant, I’m sure my parents don’t believe in evolution, and – while it pains me to say this – I know they’re bigots. (My father thinks gay rights is so that they can shut down churches, my mother thinks we should pull Arabs out of airline security and check them instead of marginally inconveniencing her.)
I love my family to death, they are incredibly important to me in every sense of the word, but I am totally afraid what’s going to happen when they learn I’m an atheist.
How can I soften the blow?
SC, et al. (@85, et seq.):
Add my clenched fist to the salute!
When I first heard about the Dixie Chicks, my initial eye-rolling thought was that they would be to country music what the Spice Girls were to pop (all-female group, all young and pretty, “Girl”/”Chick” in the group name…). No doubt that was a reflection of some cultural reverse-prejudice regarding the talent of pretty people (and pretty women in particular), but I was soon edumacated on that point: The Dixie Chicks are contstructed entirely of awesome!
I was wowed by their talent even before they showed incredible courage and insight with their stand on Bush and the war (which, for those of you outside ‘Murrica, was braver than it might seem, given who they sell their music to).
Not for nothin’, but it turns out that there was more “there” there WRT the Spice Girls, too¹… certainly more substance than their Pretty-Girls-Named-After-Stereotypes-About-Pretty-Girls image would indicate. In particular, their movie Spice World was hilarious, full of in jokes (and how can you not like Meat Loaf as their bus driver?).
As for Lady GaGa’s little film… well, my life has been enriched in many ways by being the father of a young woman, but sitting through her watch party for the TV premiere of Telephone was, I’m afraid, not one of them. Can anyone tell me what all the Prison for Bitches–Natural-Born Killers–Thelma and Louise–Kill Bill stuff has to do with the actual song??
Also, I don’t give a rat’s ass whether she has a dick; YMMV.
¹ Don’t judge me for knowing enough about them to have an opinion: I have a daughter whose pre-teen years fell smack-dab in the middle of the SGs’ 15 minutes.
I’m not sure I’d want to.
The work of “Lady GaGa” is somewhat disturbing. I prefer to avoid her music, but it’s her videos that really scare me.
@Kevin #170:
Do they value having an ornery independent streak? This might give you an opening to link your independence to their sense of being persecuted as Xians, if that’s a sense they have.
Do they value reason in any area except their religion? (you must have picked it up somewhere).
There’s also the approach “What there’s evidence for, I’m happy to rely on. What I haven’t seen evidence for, goes in the category of ‘waiting for the evidence’.”
Failing that, do they subscribe to “hate the sin but love the sinner”? This worked for me when I came out as gay–I actually asked them “Still love me?” which pretty much forced them to say yes.
Failing that too, you might try redecorating until you’ve had a chance to drop hints in more casual conversation. You have to pick the time for your battles as well as picking the battles themselves, and this may not be the time for this one.
Pretty much the only advice my ever gave me that I can remember was
“If you’re not in bed by 10… come home”
Bill, I have to give DC a little credit, they did not take their name from that ghastly Girl Power BS. They nicked it from Little Feat.
Kevin: If I were in your position, I would not tell them. It should be easy enough to hide the books; and I just don’t see any reason to make life harder, both for you and for them, by letting them know that you’re an atheist. It is likely to cause them pain – especially if they are fundamentalist Protestants who believe in justification by faith alone – and, frankly, sometimes it’s better to conceal the truth in order to protect the feelings of those one loves.
Kevin, are you from western PA?
Walton, you are not showing them much respect by going that route. Also, perhaps knowing that a loved one does not believe as they do will force them from the easy path of mindless faith. It would not be the first time.
Or the Cumberland Valley (Western Maryland)?
@Walton, Rev BDC, Nume:
I’m paying attention to the thread, don’t think I’m ignoring you all if I don’t respond.
@Sven:
Very close to Philly, actually. I went to college in Shippensburg (mid-PA.)
Well, I’m not sure you can.
I will toss in a few of my own cents though…
First, let me make an assumption (based on your description of your parents) that you were, at one time at least, a christian. For one like you, becoming an atheist after years of indoctrination requires a willingness to challenge doctrine, a curiosity about the real world that most staunch believers simply don’t have, or repress, and attraction to science and a tendency to question authority. These are traits common to most atheists I know who were once christians.
These are also traits that are not easily concealed, and certainly do not develop overnight. So you may be surprised to learn that your parents might not be all that surprised to learn it. In my experience, they also would never have spoken about it or approached you with those fears before, for fear of driving you even further towards this mentality, which might to you appear as if they never suspected.
At any rate, you are who you are, and your parents know you as the person you are. They will either accept that your views do not have to mirror theirs in order for them to love you, or they are frankly undeserving of your love (this sounds harsh and simplistic, but is the most honest way I can put it).
You seem to be a thoughtful person, and while your parents may be bigots and fundies (by your own admission), it’s clear that you share a strong bond with them. I suspect that will not be permanently damaged, but may be strained.
I recommend not forcing it to be an issue, while not hiding from it either. Be respectful of them, and if they berate you, don’t engage in defensive argumentation. Remember, you are unlikely to change their views (at least not right now anyhow), so no defense of your lack of belief is going to be understandable to them. Instead, tell them that you understand why they feel like they do… and that you love them, and respect them, but you are an adult, and you simply can not accept what they accept, and hope that they would afford you the same respect you would give them.
This is more or less the way I approached my parents, who are strongly christian but hardly fundamentalist. It was strained for a little while, but we have learned to find a peaceful place where the subjects of religion and politics are kept fairly off limits. And within those confines we enjoy a very loving, close relationship.
In recent years my mother has begun to ask more questions about why I see things the way I do… I’m not sure if its because she has begun to question or just wants to understand me better… either way, I try to answer her as firmly and accurately as possible without simply insulting her for her beliefs.
That’s my pound of limited wisdom… but, as you all know, YMMV.
Kevin: That good ol’ Cumberland Valley showing through. Did you also learn to “wersh” your car and then “rinze” it? (I went to high school in Wershington County, Merland. Played for the Wires (In real talk, that would be Washington County Maryland, and Warriors).
@iambilly:
I try to hide the oddest inflections of the accent. I don’t deny ‘needs -ed’ though, because it’s quicker to type and say than the alternative, which I suppose is the proper way to say it, and ‘needs -ed’ is the alternative.
Kevin: I would add that I certainly don’t think my personal reaction is objectively the “right” choice. It’s ultimately up to you to make the decision. Some others here may give you completely different advice, and many are in a better position to do so than me. (I grew up in a liberal Christian family, and my parents are aware of my atheism, though I don’t talk to them about religion much any more.) In the end, you’re the one here who knows your parents and knows best how they will react, so I’m not in a position to tell you what you “should” do.
No that’s fine, I didn’t really give much advice, mainly because “coming out” to my parents was easy. So easy I didn’t really even have to “come out”. It just sort of happened organically.
I can’t imagine what dealing super fundy parents would be like.
This particular construction is hardly limited to Pennsylvania or Maryland. I have heard it all over Missouri, Illinois, and Arkansas FWIW.
@Pygmy Loris:
Though I doubt it’s much of a factor – I was born in Arkansas, and lived in Missouri until I was 4.
Ugh… try growing up in Boston and then moving… well, pretty much anywhere else. You immediately become everyone’s favorite party trick.
“Hey, Celtic, say Pahk the cah in Hahvud Yahd”.
To which I eventually would reply “Ahsk me that again and I’ll shove my size uhlevun Cohnvehrse right up yuhr ahhsss”.
18 years later I’ve simply lost the accent (except when I talk to my family and revert, which my ex-wife used to find hilarious).
@Celtic_Evo:
Oh yeah, I lived there, too! And New Jersey.
Talk about living in some of the worst places for accents. I’m now in Northern VA (right near DC) so I dunno what kind of accent to expect here.
Kevin,
That’s funny :) Are your parents from Arkansas?
My advice is to leave your books out, but don’t directly confront your parents about your religious views. If they ask you, explain what you think honestly. I didn’t tell my mother about my lack of belief because I see no point. I’m not going to change her mind and it would only serve to hurt her. She happily believes that I’m some sort of nature worshiper because she’d rather me be non-Christian than an atheist. That’s just my family though. Dad knows and it doesn’t bother him because he’s just like me (Mom did know this when she married him) :) He’d been going through the motions because my mom wanted my brother and me to be Christians.
Kevin –
How funny… if things work out, that’s exactly where I will be in about 2 or 3 months. Likely Reston, VA.
From my interactions with the people there, I will say that in the DC area and areas immediately surrounding it, the accent is fairly nondescript. However, get out a few down miles or more into places like Richmond, and even moreso once you get near Charlottesville (where my ex wife’s family lives), you begin to notice a much more distinct Carolina southern drawl from the local population.
Hey look, nerd porn (with links to even more juicy, under the hood type pics) –
http://www.pcworld.com/article/191766/inside_the_atari_1040stf.html
@Pygmy Loris:
No, my parents are from Philly. My father was in the Air Force, so we moved a lot (not mentioned in my list of residences (#190) is Germany.)
Janine:
I disagree… to a point: If Kevin thinks he has a chance to deconvert his family, and thereby give them a chance at a happier, less guilty, more peaceful life in the long term, then he should buck up his courage and go for it.
But if he thinks he cannot change their minds about the truth of their faith (and assuming they actually take their faith seriously), then coming out to them as an atheist will force them to live the rest of their lives in the belief that their beloved son is doomed to eternal torture. Any parent who seriously believes that will be wracked with emotional pain. And is whatever Kevin might gain by being strictly truthful and unburdening himself worth the burden of fear and pain he would be laying on them? It doesn’t really matter that their fear would be misguided, and their pain in some sense self-inflicted; it would be no less real for all of that.
IMHO, Kevin should do whatever he judges is the best, most loving thing for his family (which, please note, may not necessarily be what’s easiest or most comfortable for him)… and he should allow himself to consider hiding his atheism from them as one of the possible solutions.
Rev BDC (@147):
By now you will have seen my e-mail re bracketology. Everyone else in the contest will benefit from my presence, no doubt: My picks (esp. involving teams outside the Big East) are about as well informed as my wife’s habit, back in the days when we occasionally attended dog racing, of picking based on which dog’s tail was curlier!
Ol’ Greg (@161):
I realize the town you’d be playing “around” is a long way from Hartford, CT, but if you ever have a gig in New England, be sure to let the crowd know. I’m sure I’m not the only Pharyngulan who’d love to be in your audience.
Yep.
Well, I disagree with this… for me, anyhow, the importance was not in my parents having their minds changed, but in them accepting me as I am and not as they would want me to be. That was too important for me to pretend otherwise.
Kwak is alright:
http://baselinescenario.com/
Much more coherent than that other Kw*k.
Universe Today covers everything spacerelated.
The Guardian Science Weekly Podcast is good for a bit of news and discussion as well.
OH MY! So that’s why my family talks like that? My grandparents were from Maryland although my grandfather was a immigrant child. I always thought their speech was odd.
I’m not actually a fan of the Dixie Chicks,
I meant that in the sense that I haven’t bought much of their music and don’t know that much about them. But what I have heard I do quite like.
(And I propose “Not Ready to Make Nice” as the official song of The Thread.)
C_E (@196):
I respect your position on this, and depending on a number of variables whose values we do not know in this particular case, I might even agree with it. But at the end of the day, I would not rank my own need for acceptance ahead of avoiding a lifetime of pain for someone I loved.
Depending on exactly what version of Christian doctrine Kevin’s parents believe and exactly how literally/seriously they take it, their reaction to Kevin’s atheism could be anything from mild disappointment to a crushing and irredeemable sense that they’ve failed as parents and are personally responsible for their son’s eternal damnation. If the reality is closer to the former end of the spectrum, the value to Kevin of being honestly and correctly understood probably exceeds the cost to his parents; if they’re closer to the latter end, maybe not so much. I don’t pretend to know the right solution, but that’s how I, personally, would define the solution space.
It’s the same, I would imagine, for many other situations involving telling uncomfortable truths: Do you come out to your parents about your sexuality? Do you confess an undiscovered (and ended) affair to a spouse? And on a trivial level, but structurally similar, do those pants make his/her ass look fat? I place a high value on truth, but an even higher value on not harming someone I love; it’s strikes me as important to get the calculus right.
Of course, it’s all pretty easy for me to say, because I haven’t been faced with any real crisis along these lines: My parents were never particularly religious, despite drifting in and out of several churches over the years, and my own drift first into and then back out of Christianity was essentially without occasions for drama. Nor have I faced any other similar conflicts between truth and the feelings of my loved ones. I would never criticize the actions of anyone who wrestles honestly with issues like this, regardless of the conclusion they reach.
No arguments, Bill… I respect what you say… I just feel differently personally, and for my situation.
maureen.brian at #149 – Fortunately or unfortunately, everyone will have a different view, it is probably not possible to get me to stop posting about these things at times. I try not to get too deeply into it, it can be boring, but I think it does help. I had a real career and did well with my life. I was fully functional for nearly 30 years and hardly gave my history a thought. Things changed. PTSD is a reality for me, actually already had issues before the last three years kicked me in the face. Sorry your Dad and late partner could not talk about things. So many vets of that time period were unable to unload – it just was not manly. WW2 was a bit better, but cultural issues/self imposed bans still existed about being unmanly. Also, I believe, after the two big wars, people, the culture, just wanted life to go back to normal and encouraged the burying of discussion. Korean vets were just ignored and Vietnam vets were often seen as the “losers”. For a while, a lot of the Vietnam vets were not even welcomed in vets organizations in the US – not a great loss I might add, but painful to those who experienced it.
iambilly at #153 – you sound like a combat vet to me. Working 9/11 may not technically qualify as combat duty, but it resulted in situations much like combat. To wit, death, destruction, smell, etc. Yes, sounds very much like combat to me.
I know what you mean about smell and how that can trigger panic or memory. Smell does seem to take us directly into our primal selves. I can still smell certain things and feel the hackles rise on my neck. One of the most embarrassing moments was going to pick up my youngest daughter late one hot summer evening at a friend’s house. I had never met the friend and did not know her family. So, I walk to the door in the dark, sultry green, get a deep sniff of Vietnamese fish sauce and hear a burst of Vietnamese. I was curling up in the bushes searching desperately for my non-existent gun when the door opened and my daughter and her friend appeared. Obviously, they were immigrants from Vietnam. Her father actually understood and asked me not to to apologize. Talk about feeling like a ass. This is one of those times when I started to realize, decades later, that perhaps I was not quite over the experience.
You will have nightmares and panic attacks – that is normal. You do seem to be trying to cope with them. For myself, therapy was very valuable as it allowed me to talk without someone either saying “there, there” or freaking out over what I was telling them. Sometimes it was valuable for me to tell the stories almost as if they happened to someone else.
Not really a video for any purpose, but this is what I am listening too right now and I love the words.
I second that emotion.
JeffreyD: I view my experiences after 9/11 as a combat experience. Right now (well, not ‘right now’ (simultaneity in blog comment conversations is an interesting concept, just as it is when contemplating speeds approaching c) but in my real life) I am trying to get someone to admit that my problem is associated with that service. It’s an uphill battle.
The nightmares — for about 14 months (SEP08 to OCT09) my nightmares were with me three, four, even five times a week. Then I got pneumonia (had both flus at once) and the nightmares are back to once a fortnight.
I have been in therapy which has not been all that useful. The coping mechanisms I use are ones that I have developed myself and my therapist says, ‘Wow. Good idea. Mind if I steal that?’ (he did that at least twice).
All: Sorry for venting. The smell trigger this morning was a jolt and I need to drop some of this dreck now so I don’t overload (((Wife))) when I get home.
And right now, I’m listening to Pink Floyd, “Is There Anybody Out There: The Wall [Live]”. Fits my current mood.
Kevin – a hard break is difficult emotionally. If you want it to be easier, drop hints for awhile. No, I’m not going to church right now, I haven’t found anything I like yet. No, I’m still not going to church anywhere. Oh, I happened to read X secular book. Hey, did you hear this story about churches acting badly in the news. It’s the sneaky way for them to step down gradually, but it doesn’t work in all cases (I know some would step up the concern and upset at each point, so a quick band-aid pull is the best). It really depends on you and your parents and what you think would be the best for both of you.
Why is Scienceblogs taunting me with a B*H photo add on the sidebar showing the last 3 lenses I’ve looked at?
Not very nice.
In other news. I’m arguing with a Creotard in a Ray Comfort blog post… and I’m losing patience and brain cells trying to do so.
I looked on TalkOrigins and flipped through my Why Evolution is True book, but the answers to a few of his statements elude me. So *ahem*
EVOLUTIONISTS! ASSEMBLE!
In response to my post: Why do you not think [evolution is] a theory?
In response to my post: Evolution would, indeed, be falsified if [a bird fossil was found earlier than a reptile fossil.]
Alright, any help, besides to call him an idiot creotard and laugh at his ignorance of evolution. Seriously, everything Ray Comfort and other creotards posit as evidence for evolution is evidence AGAINST evolution. They don’t get it, and I’m the one who is doing the research to be less ignorant.
JeffreyD@12, thanks for the link to Redgum’s I Was Only 19. I’ve no recollection of ever hearing that song before. As you say, it’s not a happy one, but it is nonetheless impressive and unforgettable.
Unfortunately, some of the comments on that YouTube link are absolutely vile.
On September 11th, my friend and I walked over to St. Vincent’s to try to donate blood. We were inhaling…people.
Kevin: Point out that when palaeontologists were looking for ‘transitional fossils’ to help fill in some ‘gaps’ in the fossil record for whales, they determined where and when (geologically speaking) to search based on previous discoveries. In other words, they predicted that certain early whale fossils might be found in sediments of the correct age in Pakistan. And they found (correct me if I’m wrong (depressed historian here)) they found Pakicetus. That is but one example of scientists using a prediction based upon the theory of evolution. You may (make that will) need to do some more checking before using that one as I may have the name wrong and I don’t know the time fram involved.
Regarding cluster headaches and LSD/psilocybin upthread, the journal Neurology® has an abstract that seems promising. The full text is behind a paywall, unfortunately. Anybody here have access?
It’s less known than the unofficial name of I Was Only 19 but the real name of the Redgum song is “A Walk in the Light Green”.
It’s from the colouration of the maps in the area the troops were sent. Dark green meant thick jungle and relative safety. The light green meant open land and dangerous exposure. Hence being ordered to “walk in the light green” was a terrifying prospect.
And once again I’m reminded just how much I owe to you who came before, that I can now wallow in my cowardice.
Thank you, Thread.
(I plugged Sid Schwab elsethread when BoSOM first brought up her father’s service. He, sadly, doesn’t comment here anymore (but I think he reads), nor does he update his Surgeonsblog, feeling written out. But he comes across as a magnificent human being.)
http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/
I was not put on this earth to listen to meat!
How about evolution in the laboratory? The experiment had a single prediction: that bacteria from a single strain would adapt to a changed environment. This very simple prediction would hold only if evolution through natural selection was a valid theory. If the bacteria did not adapt physically, and if those adaptations weren’t accompanied by genetic changes, the experiment would’ve called into question the validity of evolution via natural selection.
The experiment was a greater success than they could’ve hoped. Not only did the bacteria adapt, but one genetic change in one population adapted the bacteria to metabolize citrate.
This is just one experiment among many that made a prediction based on adaptation that was borne out by experimentation.
There is a Boise man suffering from cluster headaches that has been profiled on the local news for the last year or so. He has traveled to California (?) to have the surgery where they implant a wire/electrode in his brain to suppress the headaches. A procedure that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, is fraught with all the dangers of mucking about in the brainpan, and is not covered by insurance because it is “experimental”. The first go-round didn’t work, so he’s going back to have another attempt.
It would seem that (if it proves to be effective) a few pennies (literally) worth of psilocybin or LSD would be the sensible route, no?
boygenius:
Yes, of course. Getting the U.S. to drop its manufactured drug paranoia, that’s another animal altogether.
One of ND’s congress critters has long fought for the right to grow hemp here. Supposedly, it’s legal, but two brothers we know who have repeatedly tried to grow hemp keep getting nasty, destructive visits from the DEA.
Sven,
:)
Sili what an amazingly cool blog! I love reading about medicine and surgery. Some times I deeply, and I mean deeply, regret not studying medicine. The only reason I didn’t is that two member of my family did (who I considered much smarter than me) and couldn’t cut it and I didn’t want to let my mom down by failing at it and end up buried in debt with nothing to show for it.
It’s so stupid the reasons we can think are good reasons at the time.
If I’d have known what undergrad would have looked like for me in the next two years oh the things I would have done differently. There’s really nothing short of my own death that could have made it harder or worse and now I figure if I could handle all that I could probably handle just about anything.
D’oh! As I re-read this, I realize I made a mistake. It was more than a single genetic change that allowed the bacteria to metabolize citrate. It was at least 2 mutations.
GAH! </a>, not </em>!
Kevin –
In response to your talking point addled creationist:
Call bullshit! Then have them explain Tiktaalik. Here’s a quick blurb from Panda’s Thumb.
Scientists predicted the existence, based on the Theory of Evolution, of a creature with certain characteristics in a specific point in the fossil record. And lo and behold they found exactly what they predicted should be there, right about when it should be there. This is a testable prediction that was confirmed.
Ol’Greg,
Yeah, he’s very good (I really should get his book at some point).
Do drop him a line/comment and tell him what you liked. I think he could do with the encouragement.
Today’s Baltimore Sun has an article that promotes the use of homeopathy for treating allergies, although it does seem to somewhat confuse “herbal remedies” with homeopathic ones.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bal-gl.hs.allergies18mar18,0,7691960.story
The on-line version of the article permits comments if you’re so inclined.
And that’s why at least one creationist, Andy Schlafly, tried to denigrate the work. He didn’t even read the entire paper (“I did skim Lenski’s paper”). Big time fail.
The event was (and still is) hilarious. You can read about it here:
http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Lenski_Affair
Breaking News!
(via Slog)
“This is what patriotism looks like.
Hella props to Lt. Choi and Capt. Pietrangelo!
This is a patently stupid statement. Just because an examination of the existing data does not provide such a falsifier does not mean one can not exist! Using his own example, “the infamous rabbit”… a fossil of a Precambrian rabbit, or any other animal falling outside of where it should based on the ToE, would be a potential falsifier. The fact that the preponderance of data “effectively rules it out” only strengthens the theory… it doesn’t toss out the possibility of such a falsifier, in and of itself. What idiocy!
Caine, I’ve halfway been following the hemp battles in ND. As far as I know, Monson and Hague have come closer to breaking through than anyone else in the nation.
Don’t even get me started on the ridiculous situation in SD with the Oglala Sioux on the Pine Ridge reservation. Why on earth does the DEA have any jurisdiction in a sovereign nation?
Courage. I hope many more will join them!
He’s playing word salad with you here and intentionally trying to re-word what you said.
You don’t need to play these games. You aren’t making any prediction with regards to “the analysis of existing data”, you are making a falsifiable truth claim based on the principals of the Theory of Evolution. Evolution states that species change over time… a clear proof that evolution is wrong in that assessment would be the existence of animals that do not fit within the parameters defined by the Theory, for example a mule dear fossil in the Cretaceous fossil layer.
Using his ass-backwards logic, no claim that hasn’t been falsified can be considered falsifiable. That is pure lunacy.
Forgot the closing ” (I type like a drunken kiwibird).
“This is what patriotism looks like.” From tex.
It’s all over the gay blogs (if you’ll pardon the expression).
Still stewing about the stupidity wafting from the Ray Comfort idiot Kevin is debating…
Kevin, be warned, it’s a common creationist tactic to simply dismiss evidence or arguments they don’t like or can’t refute as irrelevant. This guy basically hand-waves everything from “Why Evolution Is True” away with a dismissal using the argument “how can you expect me to consider something as falsifiable that’s been ruled out by the evidence”, which may be one of the stupidest arguments I’ve ever had the misfortune to come across.
I’m just floored by it, which is surprising considering how much creationist stupidity I’ve been exposed to.
On 11 September 2001 I was at work when I first heard about the planes, and my first response was to call my wife and tell her not to turn on the TV in the room where my daughter was recovering from 14 hours of brain surgery a couple days before. Shortly I joined them, and we all sat hoping (praying, it would’ve been, but by then I already doubted there was anyone/anything on the other end of the prayer) that the pathologists’ verdict would be benign… but pretty much knowing that hope was forlorn. At lunchtime we watched Bush’s first speech on the TV in the cafeteria, and I remember being furious with the perpetrators for, along with all the obvious reasons, screwing around with my family’s crisis. The next day we met our oncologist for the first time.
Because it overlaps so perfectly in time with the single biggest personal crisis of my life, I’ve always suspected that 9/11 resonates differently for me than for most other people; mostly my 9/11 narrative is disjointed fragments of news coverage on various hospital TVs.
I also haven’t been personally touched by war in the way others report: I never served in the military myself (too young for Vietnam; too old for the Gulf War), and never lost anyone close to me in war: My brother-in-law served an infantry tour in Iraq, but came through unscathed. My father was a Korean War fighter pilot, and even once had to bail out of his F-86, but it was due to a midair with a squadron mate, not combat. My mother lost an older brother in WWII when she was a teen, but that was (obviously) long before I was born. My grandfather was a WWI vet, but reached the front too late to see any combat (though he did nearly die in France during the 1919 flu pandemic). I can only guess at what it must be like to live with the scars of war, or with others who suffer from them.
I felt a little bad earlier, when I fairly glibly praised the Dixie Chicks for their anti-war stance, and then began to read some of the posts (which I had not previously seen) about the personal effects of war. It has been my experience that the political opponents of the Iraq invasion, despite all conventional “wisdom” to the contrary, care deeply about the suffering and hardships of soldiers, veterens, and their families, and are grateful for the sacrifices those peole have made. I know that’s true of me. Nevertheless, if my breezy manner this morning was an occasion for any pain, I apologize.
Boygenius:
I’m really beginning to think it’s simply never going to happen here. Hemp would be an outstanding crop here, it’s excellent for rotation, and given that it can be grown for cloth, paper and oil means that farmers could actually make some money. I’ve seen the DEA storm a hemp crop, complete with effing flamethrowers. Godsdamned idiots.
Oh, the list of atrocities pulled at Pine Ridge are insane and *long*. SD has turned into a nest of viperous, toxic fundagelicals. Its a very scary place these days. Things have never been right at Pine Ridge, but it’s gone past absurd these days. The DEA should not only have no business at PR, it shouldn’t have any business when it comes to legal crops or legal medical marijuana. Doesn’t stop them from arresting people left and right though.
I did, actually I just put his book in my amazon cart so I look forward to reading it.
My dad was in the Marines for 20 years. He did 2 tours in Vietnam. Certain horrors and events where he was lucky to be alive served to reinforce his religion, and were basically his proof that God exists and loved him. I was never able to come out as an atheist to my dad because I was scared of how it would end up, with God being basically the solution to all his war issues. He died a year ago next week and I never really was able to get respect for who I am, instead of who I pretended to be.
Tying back into Kevin’s dilemma, I’d do my best to be open with my beliefs and values. But then, it’s somewhat hypocritical of me to say so.
“Join us! Join us!”
On 11 September 2001 here in Texas I was in school.
It was eerie that morning when I got to class. There were no people in front of the school, it was quiet, and I kept thinking I had forgotten maybe that it was a holiday or that there was some kind of testing.
Then there was a girl just standing in a hall and she was saying something very cavalier about a plane crash and laughing about it.
When I got to class everything was quiet and no one said anything about my being late which was getting increasingly disconcerting. The TV was on and the news was showing footage over and over again of a burning building, and then the second plane hit.
We all just stared at it and didn’t say anything.
Then we started talking about it, and kids started panicking or getting upset. Most people kept saying “why would they do that?”
Then everyone went home. We didn’t know what to do. We just sat and listened to the radio (didn’t have TV or home internet then.)
Sat, listened, sat, listened… and at some point we all went out (the whole city it seemed) and bought groceries.
I guess my point was that as remote as I was it was so disturbing. I can’t imagine what it was like for people there.
Some of my friends were in school nearby and watched as it happened. I really can’t imagine.
On September 11, 2001 my wife and I were on a train going to Chicago. We were having breakfast and a British tourist was on the phone to somebody. This somebody had the TV on and said “somebody just flew a plane into a skyscraper in New York.” The tourist passed the word on to those of us in the dining car. There was a discussion and the general consensus was a horrible accident had happened. We didn’t find out any details until we got to the railway station in Chicago.
My younger brother was flying from San Francisco to Milwaukee. His plane was diverted to Salt Lake City. After two days in SLC he and three other people rented a car and drove back to San Francisco.
I was as well (except in California). I had a zero period AP Physics course, and I would show up early even for that in case people needed help with homework or the previous days’ lecture, whatever. There was nobody around campus at large, seeing as it was 6:30 or so. The teacher had the television on, which he never had before. It was surreal. It took me several minutes to realize something was wrong (I can be rather slow). I don’t recall any widescale disturbance, aside from abstract talk about how horrible it was and more concrete talk about how they’d be reinstating the draft. Well, actually, there were some people freaked out about how Disneyland would be destroyed by terrorists (it’s in the same city I grew up in), but at the time that just seemed silly to me. I didn’t even remember it until right now.
Caine:
Yeah, you’d think especially after the Leonard Peltier incident (just to pick a modern conflict) the feds would have more of a hands-off approach to Pine Ridge. I guess the stormtrooper mentality runs deep. Jackbooted thugs, indeed.
Bill Dauphin at #235. for what it is worth from me, I noticed neither a breezy manner from you nor had any concern with what you were saying.
9/11 – I was in DC, downtown, State Dept on C Street. Watching the horror show just like everyone else. Of course, we, like New Yorkers, had the added soupçon of wondering whether there was another plane heading our way. The Pentagon hit just added to that concern. I finally made it home, settled the family, packed a bag and went back to work. Did not even exit the building as such for the next five days, eating pizza and sleeping on couches in the lounge. I think it took longer for those of us in the Dept, military and the Agency to come to terms with the attack as we worked through the aftermath for such long stretches. An analgesic of fatigue as it were.
Apparently started something on this thread. Again, not sure it was a good idea. I always wonder if people really need to relive pain. It is cathartic for me, but it is OK to inflict it on others? Well, like I said before, I doubt I can fully stop, so hope it is a good thing overall.
A little brother Solomon Burke
The only things I can say about my reäction to the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center would most likely paint me – rightly – as a heartless, godless monster.
From my position at the time, it was easy to not share in the sorrow and pain of the victims and observers. Reading The Thread shames me for my glibness.
Another Viet Vet, who admittedly doesn’t write much about his experience.
On 9/11, I saw the news coverage of the first plane while getting ready for work. Heard about the second plane on the radio on the way to the jobsite. Rounded up my employees and we all went to the nearest bar with a TV, opened a tab on the company credit card and spent the entire day watching it all play out. I wish my memories of that day could be as blurry as they were when we finally left that bar. Unfortunately, the subsequent media saturation is still with me.
The worst thing? I suspect we shall see a repeat performance sooner rather than later. Radical Islam + piss-poor foreign policy = 9/11 II, the Redux. :'(
Gyeong Hwa Pak #70
Sorry to respond so late, been out all day, and then it took an hour to read this thread. Those combat etc experiences deserved to be read properly, and not skimmed.
In reply to your request – I possess very little Cambodian music, and it’s all before 1975, and Pol Pot. I have “Cambodia Rocks”. and imho, a much better compilation collected in street markets in the early seventies by an American muso entitled “Cambodian Swing Machine” (artists unknown, all murdered ofc, crazy Western influenced pop). Everything else I have heard on the internet somewhere. Bits of traditional folk music, that sort of thing. Hard to find, and impossible to find to download. Never been there.
The Chinese music I’ve also mainly heard on the net, but i was in Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore in the early seventies and I “experienced” street opera a few times, and also heard the odd person/combo playing folk music, on street corners, bars, on doorsteps.
Is that what you wanted to know?
My question about how one writes songs in tonal languages really came about because, although I can listen to Chinese instrumental music, once the voice is added it loses me completely. Everything goes weird :) So, is it just me, or is there something different happening there because the language is tonal?
(It gets more complicated because I don’t have the same problem with, eg, “tonal” v “non tonal” West African Music. But then it’s obviously a different musical tradition, and the language families use tonality differently.)
Of course, the vast majority of speakers of tonal languages have perfect pitch. Why doesn’t it sound like that to me when they sing? :)
Sili:
Why? Was your reaction of the “chickens have come home to roost” variety? I admit to feeling a bit of that myself, though it did not detract from my sorrow and sympathy for the victims.
What was your position at the time that made it hard for you to relate to the situation. Don’t feel obligated to answer me, but I’m genuinely curious.
JeffreyD,
If it helps you to write about it, we’ll read it and some of us will even comment. While I’m a military veteran I never served in combat so I can only sympathize, not empathize.
Living in the UK with no US contacts. Had I been a Pharyngulista then, I would likely have had very different experience.
No. I came into the dept. very late that day, so I was alone in my office. I checked my mail, and there was a message for the chaplaincy (prolly to the exchange student mailing list or some such thing) offering support and councelling to anyone affected by “the tragic events of today” or words to that effect. I assumed that there had once again been a school shooting of some similar minor, selfinflicted incident. Something that those silly Americans were as usual blowing out of proportion as if they were the centre of the world. Only then did I go to the BBC News.
Still, I flew to France later that month on a mostly empty plane, and I said with out remorse that I had to admire the terrorists for their creativity (a very poorly chosen word for an act of destruction).
I still think that the public reäction was out of proportion, but I think that of just about all public expressions of emotion. At least it was more appropriate than the Diana-orama, but the claims of this somehow being the worst humanitarian catastrophe EVAR, makes it very hard to find any sympathy of the general American.
It was surreal. On one hand it was traumatic in a very real way. On the other hand I was most disturbed by my feeling like there was nothing to do. All around me were places to vent lots of emotions, but I’m not a person who feels better by venting emotions. I only feel better by actually doing something.
Oy, blockquote fail. My apologies.
I think you’re going to regret saying that.
I had the day off work and watched it all unfold on TV. I thought it was horrific, mass murder committed by religious lunatics.
I also thought, with only a sense of weariness, that people had been saying for years that if you assist in the overthrow of governments (Iran), in the destructuon of others (Lebanon) and the support for military dictatorships (Iraq), wiping out all possible political options, exterminating the left and the democrats (Indonesia) then you leave people with nothing but the Violence( State or private) and Religion. What do you expect?
The three most secular, “westernised”, ME countries were Iraq, Iran, and Lebanon. Now look at them.
But nothing absolves anyone from killing civilians en masse. Not in New York, Madrid or London, and not in Gaza, Beirut or Baghdad.
Sili, thanks for your reply. I guess I can understand your position. We Yanks are more than a bit self centered, taken as a whole. (Though I believe the average USian Pharyngulite is much less ethnocentric than the population at large. Exponentially so, even.)
Most of the people I interact with in meatspace don’t even realize that more Americans have been killed in Iraq than in the 9/11 attacks. Not to mention the 100K+ Iraqi civilians killed. In a stupid, pointless war that we (well, some of we) were lied into.
While there has been some condemnation of the war in Iraq, it doesn’t square with the body count when compared to 9/11.
In general, I think there is something very wrong with the *idea* of ranking atrocities.
For instance the “worst case” of child abuse…
I really hate this line of argument for two reasons: 1. evolution does make testable predictions, otherwise how would we know it happened? And 2. testable predictions a science makes not. The prediction that the world is going to end next tuesday is a testable and falsifiable prediction, when next wednesday I wake up and the world is still standing I know that such a prediction has failed.
Their ignorance of evolution is not an argument against evolution, no matter how much they think it is. Until they realise it, we’re going to be perpetually trying to show that the straw man they have constructed is indeed made of straw – despite them thinking they have just punched through steel.
drat! should read “…exterminating the left and the social democrats and the democratic right (Indonesia) then you leave people with nothing but Violence..”
This sounds absolutely fascinating and I happen to know that it can be obtained, as it were, online. I may even have done so. If I had, though, it wouldn’t have risen to the top of the listening queue yet, probably.
Here is a blogpost about it, if you know what I mean, and I think you do nudge wink saynomore Squire
Hey,I’m sorry all I’m having some email trouble but Bill D I replied to you but I don’t know if it will go through. The account name may look like spam though from that address.
If you see phthalocyanine in the sender’s name that’s me.
Bah!! The whole point of my #256 is that the Iraq war is a worse humanitarian catastrophe than 9/11, and equally unnecessary.
Sven, Yes, that’s where I got it from. Although after I later posted a link to it here, months ago, I found it wasn’t working any more. Maybe it’s back.
I love it, especially the second half. Track 2 is the original tune for Dengue Fever ‘s “Tiger Phone Card”.
(I also have their DVD documentary “Sleepwalking through The Mekong”).
We were living in Okinawa on 9/11, and I was nine weeks pregnant with twins. Because of the time difference, we only learned about it on the morning of the 12th.
For us seeing the towers was a shocking, yet remote thing. But seeing the Pentagon was worse still. Friends knew people there; it was more personal.
Years later, again living overseas, one of my neighbors told me that her husband was working in the Pentagon that day. In fact, his office was one of the ones that was closed for renovation – which was what saved his life.
Much of the events of that day remind me of Pearl Harbor in the sense that it was a loss of innocence (of sorts).
I’m probably not expressing this very well. I’m not sure that I can. Perhaps after some wine, I’ll become a bit more fluent.
Kay
For Creotard first – I think I’m just going to dismiss him with a ‘if you can’t debate correctly, then I’m not going to bother.’
Second, for my family coming up. I’ve decided, I’m just going to leave my books on my bookshelf. They’re not anywhere special, nor are they hidden. I’m not going to make mention of them at all. If my mother or father decides to question them, I’ll simply admit I’m an atheist. I’ll let them know of my love of science. I’ll let them know that I just don’t have the same belief anymore. Whatever happens, happens.
Luckily no one cares about my books.
I remember once my mom visited me and a friend of hers was with her and quickly the friend began rifling though my bookshelf, picking out books, and asking my mother about them in front of me. Both my mother and I were just kind of staring at him. He pulled out a book of erotic short stories by Anais Nin and made the funniest face, and then he pulled out a book on skin diseases with lots of colorplates, and then my copy of the satanist bible. Hahah… I still have that thing for precisely the same purpose. Nothing funnier than some people’s faces when they see something like that. It’s just a freaking paperback too. Really though the skin disease book is a lot more disturbing.
So is some of anais nin’s writing actually.
Feynmaniac back at #146
I had a close friend die in Tower 1 so after this thread I decided to cheer myself up and enter into Ray’s offer to give away a jacket. If PZ can get an iPhone from the godbots, I can get a jacket. Here’s my entry which I sent to the email address he supplied:
..if I win I am sooooo going to show off.
Er, I meant ‘seriously’ not ‘correctly.’
@Ol’Greg:
That’s a little… rude of her friend. “I’m gonna go through your stuff *rummagerummage*”
@Bride of Shrek:
I actually entered his $100 groceries drawing… cause I could use free groceries for a couple weeks.
If you got it, flaunt it…
Wow… Sastra just pwnd another thread.
And coined a phrase!
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say “if you don’t even understand the basics of what you’re arguing, then there’s no point to continue”, then list a number of books on the matter so that he can inform himself on what he is arguing against. Otherwise he might mistake your futility for cowardice.
Aaand.. I didn’t read far enough down the thread to realize that all y’all are already over there and probably saw Sastra’s brilliance before I did.
@Kel:
Well, yeah. I was going to do that, too. It’s obvious that he, and people like Ray Comfort don’t really understand evolution. I’ve been researching it, myself. I bought ‘Your Inner Fish’ and ‘Why Evolution is True’ recently and I just finished WEiT.
I was at work on 9/11. (((Wife))) called and told me a plane had hit the World Trade Center. I figured it was no big deal. After all, during WWII, a North American B-25 Mitchell managed to his the Empire State Building. THen one of my co-workers said anothe plane had hit and I knew that this was not an accident.
We pulled a TV into the Visitor Center and decided not to even open up the fee booth. We were right. The park was closed by 11:00. And was closed the next day.
On Friday I was sent down to New York City. Drove down. Had to take a marked vehicle. The only one the park could spare was a 1986 Ford Tempo which used to belong to the USMC. When I got down to the Javitz Center, a Forest Ranger said that he would never again claim that the NPS got all the money.
At the time, we had three people in California at a forest fire, one in Montana at a forest fire, and another one in Idaho. They were kinda stranded out there.
The whole experience was unreal. Stopping at the elementary school to tell my kids I was headed down to work the incident. Calling (((Wife))) on her cell phone to find out where she was so I could say goodbye. Telling her I would miss her birthday. Again.
My parents still remember where they were when they heard the news about Jack Kennedy. And Martin Luther King. And Bobby. I had always wondered how they could possibly remember after all those years. Today, I can still remember little details like exactly what I was doing (coding html in notepad), what I was drinking (a cherry coke).
Thanks for putting up with me today. And I apologize for steering the endless thread onto some emotional shoals.
Kevin,
It’s obvious he’s attacking a strawman version of evolution. Ask him to explain to you what evolution is. Tell him you want his explanation to make sure you’re both arguing from the same premises. If he refuses then you can withdraw from the discussion since he’s not arguing in good faith. If he gives a weak explanation then you should correct him. Don’t allow him to define evolution as anything but “the process of change in life forms over generations by means of natural selection, mutation and genetic drift” or something similar to that.
<sigh> I take one day off The Thread to
read other threadsget some work done as long as I’m still in Paris, and well over 200 comments accumulate. I don’t want to pull an all-nighter, I haven’t got enough sleep all week… <sniff>Anyway, before I forget: check this awesome abstract out, and then read the popularization – yes, it’s New Scientist, but it’s three pages long and well written.
Also, more Austrians are leaving the [Catholic] Church than ever before, surpassing the record set only last year.
And, I finished the bread and a plate of cress soup. Cafeteria today: couscous.
This is a pattern – ten minutes (literally this time) after I go to bed, Jadehawk turns up and teaches me something.
:-)
Could be that this is what adapting the tune to the tones of the language is like. Of course, the screechiness is deliberate; it’s about the same thing as the stupid timbre of Western professional singers, none of whom seems capable of holding a tone – they actually try not to.
I think only the Cantonese get confused about r and l. But of course that’s what most Chinese immigrants to America used to speak.
With those 12 words they made themselves internationally famous. :-)
The second of the videos is on Vevo. :-(
I find the lyrics hard to understand in both versions. Are they written down somewhere?
I gather the original is about a 1960s generation conflict (you know, the psychological phenomenon that was considered a universal fact in schoolbooks up to at least the late 1990s), which doesn’t occur anymore, so Hilary Duff had little chance of getting the point?
What language is 3 in??? The transcription looks like it’s supposed to be Cantonese, but what the guy actually sings sounds like southern Mandarin, except he lets a syllable end in -m. ~:-|
Also… what is the topic? :-) I only understand “flower”, “heart”, and “heaven”, and that’s in version 3… I like what Khmer sounds like, but… :o)
Oh horror.
Will I ever be able to eat that stuff again.
?
No, I don’t allow you. I’ve been watching enough videos tonight. It’s half past 2 pm, I better stop reading at that comment (150)…
Kevin, best of luck with the parentals.
—
My Dad was a career Marine, and did 3 tours of Vietnam; I only recently found out about the 3rd. He only ever talked about it once in my hearing, for about 15 minutes.
—
The weekend after 9/11, I found out that a friend of mine had worked in one of the Towers up until about 6 mo. previously. She was pretty shocky about it, since she had a lot of friends and acquaintances that were still there. As is so often the case in tragic circumstances, I wasn’t sure what the socially correct response was; “I’m so sorry” doesn’t cover it, and always leaves me feeling frustrated and wishing I could think of something that would actually help.
On September 11, I was still working as a bike messenger in Chicago. I was heading down the lakefront at about eight in the morning, biking in from Edgewater, about a nine mile ride to start my day. The radio station switched to CBS’ television coverage.
I could make out that a plane hit one of the Twin Towers. But I remember that a plane hit The Empire State Building during WWII. I thought it was an accident. It was bad for the people involved but that was that. Because the news show was busy interviewing over the phone people in the building, I could not make out the scale of the first strike. (Sad to think that probably most of those people interviewed that I heard died that morning.) When I heard about the second strike, it was obvious that it was organized.
At nine o’clock, I was making my first pick up. I had about fifteen daily runs in the morning. They were all canceled, all of the buildings were closing up and people were heading back out. By nine thirty, I completed my first run of the day. That was only because the building I was delivering to was just in the process of closing when I got there.
I spoke with some people in the offices about what was happening. While some were worried that an attack might happen in Chicago, it seemed by this time, it was not going to happen. I assumed that the Air Force would shoot down any other planes still in the sky. I found a quiet street corner read my newspapers, knowing that they were already quite irrelevant. I just wanted to be out of the way and wait for my dispatcher to find me a delivery taking me back home.
I could see the line outside of the nearby Hertz office. Finally at around eleven, I got a pick up. I spoke with the security guard for a few minutes, agreeing that this attack gave the administration their excuse to do what they wanted. This was before I learned that both towers collapsed. I delivered to The Saddle Club, just off of the lake. While the television was on on the ballroom, the news of the day was not going to stop these people from having their little gathering. It was an odd scene.
Finally I got home where I caught some of CNN’s coverage. My roommate at the time was a tremendous news junky and filled me in on all of the speculations flying through the air. She was also not the most mentally healthy person, she was on the verge of a break down when I got home. We spent the rest of the afternoon talking about what all of this could be. Finally, that evening, I had to go for a walk by myself, just to clear my head. There was not many people walking around that night, it was strangely quiet.
And what struck me was just how beautiful the day has been what what a lovely twilight I sat through. Ignore the news and it was as perfect a September day as one could hope for.
When I got back home that night, my roommate thanked me for helping her stay sane that day. I thanked her for doing the same for me. Even this could not get us ready for the absolutely surreal weeks that followed.
Well, no. It’s half past 2 am.
Descent with heritable modification.
Explained by the {theory of evolution by mutation, selection, and drift}.
Sili:
Josh:
Add me to the choir here. I was shocked and horrified by the event, I have very close friends in New York, one in particular living waaaay too close to the towers. I was in a suspended state, waiting for word. Even through all I was feeling, I was well aware that the U.S. had been extremely lucky in the terrorist attack department. Other people around the world lived with this threat all the time.
As Josh said, “the self-obsessed, maudlin, jingoistic aspect of the whole thing” – there was so much of that crap, it made me cringe. Lisa Beamer alone, with her harpy-ish grip on whatever attention and cash she could grab made me ill. Then there was our so-called govt. That’s still embarrassing, to say the least.
Oh, and Kevin, if your folks do notice the books, and do kick the issue over, it may help to point out to them that evolution and abiogenesis are not the same thing. A lot (most?) of theists are confused on this issue, and some feel better for knowing that evolution isn’t about how life originated. After that, you can sometimes get them to go along with micro-evolution, which is at least a starting point in the direction of macro-evolution.
Then worry about disengaging god(s) from the start-up process later.
*drags mind forcefully out of the gutter*
it’s worse than that.
original lyrics
the butchered lyrics
please note the addition of a certain word which completely ruins the meaning of the line to which it’s added. which she did because the original “sounded too negative”
*facepalm*
preferred side on which to sleep, and source of a large percentage of fights among couples ;-)
Hillary Duff covered My Generation? Well, how about that. I am pleased I have never heard a thing she has done. I will forget that she has done so. Just as I have forgotten the last thirty years of The Who’s existence.
Dear Josh
The “white boy” was, unfortunately, too clever a jibe. It would require that someone from this thread follow complicated instructions like viewing a Youtube video by Russell Brand (still available on http://www.maloneymedical.com under quackery) all the way to the end. If you take the time, it will become clear.
Another poster with a name playing on the term Annoyed defended this group’s ability as scientists to change their viewpoints based on evidence. While I must cynically point out that I haven’t received very little scientific thought and a great deal of profanity, I remain open to the possibility of some (perhaps a few?) of you being open to scientific thought.
Here we have a study on the long term effects of the basis of what I practice on hospital patients. What I do has a profoundly positive effect on outcomes, and the effect is long lasting. Do not reply with profanity, show me conflicting studies (that would be medline, not some random website or newspaper link) that what I do (Naturopathic Medicine) is either harmful or ineffective. If you cannot, any scientists among you must acknowledge that I have evidence on my side and am, by logical deduction, not a quack.
Honestly, I expect profane name calling and derision, but those who do so are simply not scientists by any stretch of the term.
Forsch Komplementarmed Klass Naturheilkd. 2002 Oct;9(5):269-76.
[Evaluation of inpatient naturopathic treatment–the Blankenstein model. Part II: Effective strength and health status of patients over the course of time]
[Article in German]
Ostermann T, Beer AM, Matthiessen PF.
Lehrstuhl für Medizintheorie und Komplementärmedizin der Fakultät für Medizin, Universität Witten/Herdecke, Germany.
BACKGROUND: In order to check the possibilities and limits of naturopathic treatment within the field of inpatient care, in January 1997 a model department of naturopathy was established at the Hospital Blankenstein, Hattingen. For a period of 3 years (starting on July 1,1999) it has been scientifically accompanied by the Chair of Medical Theory and Complementary Medicine at the University of Witten/ Herdecke. AIM: The scientific evaluation focuses on the following question: How does a 3-week inpatient treatment with naturopathic methods effect different outcome parameters regarding a pre-post comparison and a half-year follow-up? METHODS: A prospective observation study with 4 defined times of measurement (hospitalization, discharge, 3 and 6 months after the end of the inhospital stay) and an analysis of the subgroups of patients with rheumatic diseases. The data of 1026 patients of the department of naturopathy were considered, who have been treated because of rheumatic diseases, metabolic diseases, chronic-bronchial diseases and allergic discomforts from July 1, 1999 to December 13, 2000. The mean value of age was 57.3 years, the median 58.5 years. 69.4% of the patients were capable of gainful employment (17-65 years). The patients were treated with classical naturopathic methods (hydrotherapy, phytotherapy), individually adapted to the patient’s situation. Outcome parameters were quality of life (measured with the HLQ and the SF-36), mood (measured with the Bf-S), physical complaints (measured with the GBB24) and pain perception (measured with the SES) of the patient. RESULTS: All subscales as well as the total scores of the psychometric test instruments showed highly significant changes (t test, p < 0.01) between the time 'hospitalization' and 'discharge'. Within the follow-up these values were stabilized on a level significantly higher than the initial level. Patients with rheumatic diseases showed a profile different from that of patients with similar diseases. CONCLUSION: The results show a stabilization of the patients within the follow-up, which proves the long-lasting effect of naturopathic treatment. This is of special importance for the section of naturopathy, where the temporal dimension of treatment plays an important role and it is often asserted that therapeutical effects can above all be recognized in the long term. Copyright 2002 S. Karger GmbH, Freiburg PMID: 12417803
Comment by Quackalicious blocked. [unkill] [show comment]
Aaaaaaaah. Nice.
Yawn, still nothing cogent from the fraud, fake, quack. He needs to get his act together and understand his vain attempt to prove he is not a woomeister, doesn’t help his cause at all. It still hinders his cause. There is nothing that will help his cause, as the science says all he has a a wonder drug called Placebo. Found in any sugar jar, where a teaspoon of sugar will do all the good that Qwack does to his victims, but for pennies. Silence is his best bet. But silence appears to be beyond his ken. What a loser.
Melisma
Of course the problem with this is no matter how wrong the creationist is, they’ll insist that their understanding of evolution is the correct one. “That’s not what I’m arguing for” doesn’t cut it with people who cannot grasp the world in any way other than they see it.
So as not to disappoint:
I’m not a scientist by any stretch of the term. You are a dishonest fucking quack. Please, take your Mooney and stick it up your Kirshenbaum until your cock feels like a cunt and it hurts so damn bad that you shit Vegemite.
If that’s too clever a jibe for you, let me know and I’ll give you some complicated instructions to follow. (I might even be able to come up with a YouTube video for you.)
Janine #39
Just seen that. It was mild.
This is more like what I saw.
That is Jadehawk at #39.
well, the point was to highlight the singing, rather than the music, since that was the topic :-)
JadeHawk, It’s when the music and the singing collide that the real fun starts.
http://www.myvideo.de/watch/1375857/joni_mitchell_unchained_melody
What is your IQ, by the way?
Were these changes for the better or the worse? Define “significant”.
David M. @ #277,
Yep, for NS, it’s not a bad write-up at all. Apparently the original star was ~ 300 M☉, so the amount of mass converted directly into Ke would have been phenomenal – by the sound of it, way more energetic than the conventional type I or II supernovæ.
Vibrato is a deliberate technique of natural amplification of the voice, and properly employed with a tight focus on the fundamental note, it shouldn’t involve undue distortion of the pitch despite giving it a systematic wobble; unfortunately, some singers use such a large vibrato they can’t avoid changing the pitch. (e.g. “That singer’s vibrato was so wide you could drive a truck through it…”)
RTL @ #288,
No, melisma is just the nature of a melody where one must sing more than one pitch to a given syllable; a lot of Gregorian chant utilises melisma where a single syllable can be greatly extended to support long phrases – and some Teutonic hymns were constructed on the reverse principle, that each syllable must only be sung to a single note. Singers using so much vibrato so that a single note can no longer be discerned is simply bad singing, whether unintentionally or otherwise…
..well yes, given a stay comfortable surroundings, hanging out, eating 3 square a day, wacthing television ansd having kind people look after me I’d probably increase in all of those areas too. Numbskull.
They gave people a 3 week vacation and analysed that they felt better?!?
..and don’t think for one minute it escaped us exactly WHO was doing the “scientific” analysis in that study. The ultimate peer review. Quacks analysing quacks.
Hey Quack
If naturopathy is so bloody safe and effective how come it’s illegal to practice it in South Carolina or Tennessee?
..and how come I just read a study (published by your own “woo” puveyor the Alt Med Journal) that clearly identifies the statistically normal patient for you idjits is a woman, white, of around the 45-50 year ols bracket who presents with tiredness, mailaise and general unwellness. And typically you see that “patient” for no less than 10 consultations.
Could it be, surely not possible *gasp* that you are fruadulently gouging the wallets of menopausal women with non-specific yet typical symptoms?
Bride of Shrek:
Hell, if you gave me a 3 week vacation, I know I’d feel better in a lot of ways. As to whether or not that vacation would make my spinal pain levels better, no, it wouldn’t. All the fabulous vacations in the world wouldn’t affect that pain.
I haven’t read Quackass’s latest (I find killfiling him helps a certain type of pain), but I never fail to be surprised by how these fraudsters never deal with conditions which cause actual severe levels of pain.
I think this thread is in need of some cuteness therapy, so here is a vid of two of the gorillas I get to spend my Thursdays cleaning up after. The mother, Amanda, is very silvery and visitors often think she’s a male. The baby, Uzumma, is now almost two and a half. She’s way past learning to walk and loves to swing around on the climbing structure in that enclosure.
~*~*~*~*~*~
David Marjanović (#277)
Well, pinyin uses the letters l and r, but the r sound is distinctly different from any of the English r’s, so I don’t know that it’s any easier for a Mandarin speaker to distinguish between the English l and r sounds.
Quackalicious (#285)
Your reasoning is off because you’ve failed to account for the possibility that your evidence is bogus and your beliefs are wrong. If the only conclusion you can draw from our rejection of your pseudoscience is that we’re not thinking scientifically, then your mind is not as open as you seem to believe.
So, rather than making any responses of substance, you’re going to continue with the playacting, finger-pointing, whinging and tantrums? How sad to have my expectations fulfilled. It’s killfile time for you. Buh bye!
Not to mention one that is often somewhat left feeling unhelped by medical doctors.
My own unfortunate foray into woo medicine was because of frustrating bladder symptoms that were persistent, chronic, horribly painful, and yet doctors didn’t take much interest in or find much helpful to do about it. Not wanting to spend another year on antibiotics and/or just have a script for some kind of painkillers I turned to increasingly stupid “cures” including but not limited to homeopathy. They didn’t help, and the next year I had less money when I inevitably went back to the doctors. Not to mention failing to treat things from the start caused a couple of trips to the ER that were completely unneeded due to massively bloody and excruciating incontinence. I sympathize with those hyenas. There was a time I almost bit an ER doctor I was so delirious with pain when he asked me on a scale of 1 – 10 how much it hurt I thought I’d kill him. 1 – 10? When some one presents with pain and they’re pasty white and panting, shaking like a junkie, and blood is pouring out of them… it’s a fucking TEN.
But feeling unhelped by doctors is not an excuse to spend money on people who will make you *feel* like they’re doing something. Or biting them.
As frustrating as it is to have a doctor treat you like you’re making things up because they don’t know what it is that’s bothering you (and I do understand how it can seem that way when you can’t find a *reason* for the problem)… it’s no better to have some one giving you false hope that whatever underlying problem is going away.
I still don’t really know what exactly is wrong with me there, but it’s been better for the last couple of years. We’ll see after my next physical I guess if anything turns up.
So far IC was the top candidate. But I don’t know if IC gets better on its own ever.
Quack, # 285:
Not even clever enough by half, you fraud. You’re a liar, you’re a con artist, and you hurt people with your fraudulent “medicine.” You think your smiling face, complete with white coat and stethoscope, makes you a real doctor? It doesn’t. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. But, of course, you aren’t, as quacks like you never are. You have no moral compass. It’s all about convincing gullible people to part with their money to keep you in the undeservedly comfortable lifestyle you think is your due.
F*ck you Maloney.
Josh, in regard to your link, every frelling time I’ve seen that, I read it as baloneymedical.com.
Bwahahaha! It was priceless to watch Steve Novella dismantling the Quacktard’s gibberish over on the Science Based Medicine blog a few weeks ago. The Quack just kept coming back in the comments for more and more – and he got it.
At one stage the Quack was trying to tell Novella (a neurologist) that he was out of his depth interpreting a particular study because he wasn’t a cardiologist.
As I asked the Quack in the comments: “Are you a cardiologist? Oh, that’s right – you’re not even a doctor!”
Naturopathy is just a catch-all for everything that science has shown not to work.
No doubt most naturopaths believe their own bullshit but it doesn’t change the fact that the only thing they really know how to do is fool the desperate and the ignorant into parting with their money and keeping them from getting proper treatment. Lethally dangerous, irresponsible, woo-pushing parasites they are.
ambulocetacean:
Quackass vs a neurologist? Hahahahaha, that’s not a fight, it’s a massacre. :D
@ Kel — just wondering if you saw my posting of the citation from Guenter Lewy’s book on the RCC and the NSDAP?
Granted, it was Pilt who was demanding the citation, but I thought you might be interested in the corroborating info.
@ Kevin — as perhaps already noted, your interlocutor’s “definition” for falsifiability would eliminate anything from being a scientific theory! He’s complaining that the very fact that it having testable predictions would make it “not falsified”. He doesn’t know anything about science at all.
Of course, the reason for this strawman distortion of science is because he wants to force a false equivalence between evolution and creationism. No. Creationism really does make no unfalsified-but-falsifiable predictions, and really does not explain anything at all.
(copying and pasting a useful boilerplate, here:)
These are from the end-notes for The Sandwalk Adventures, by Jay Hosler — everything between the rows of “=” signs is by him:
================
1. As a result of mutation creating new alleles, and segregation and independent assortment shuffling alleles into new combinations, individuals within a population are variable for nearly all traits.
2. Individuals pass their alleles on to their offspring intact.
3. In most generations, more offspring are produced than can survive.
4. The individuals that survive and go on to reproduce, or who reproduce the most, are those with alleles and allele combinations that best adapt them to their environment.
================
Ultimately, I think that those postulates (near enough), define what biological evolution is. “ID”-ists, YECs, and other delugional creationists have to demonstrate how those are false, or not falsifiable/testable.
(end copy-and-paste)
The thing of it is, he can’t complain that because confirmation of each of those sub-components of evolutionary theory is constantly being found that they aren’t “falsifiable” — the burden of proof is on those who want to falsify them, and they have to find and demonstrate the falsification!
Is gravity “not falsifiable” because it’s constantly being confirmed by every use of ballistics?
That having been said, I would drop the whole “fossil found in strata earlier than all of the fossil’s predecessors” as being a falsification of evolution. Look at the four postulates above. They’re about iterative reproduction and survival rates. Which of those would such a fossil falsify?
No, I think Haldane was just flippant, possibly confused, and definitely wrong. I insist that such a fossil would demonstrate a violation of causality that would throw all of science into an upheaval — but evolution, like all science, would still, for the most part, be true.
The whole point of falsifiability is that once you do have falsifying empirical evidence, the new theory must still be able to explain everything that the previous theory did, but do it better precisely because it also explains the new falsifying data as well.
I think this essay by Isaac Asimov explains this concept of iterative falsification with new and better empirical evidence very well:
http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
Getting back to your parents — what denomination are they?
I ask because it just seems to me that if they’re Calvinists, or of a Calvinist-derived sub-denomination, you could always claim, in a calm and deadly seriousness manner, that if God does he exist, God does not want you to believe in him.
The whole point of “total (so-called) ‘depravity'” being that humans cannot choose to believe in God; faith is a gift. But that means that God can withhold that gift.
(Or you could shrug and change the subject, which is probably what I would do.)
I just watch a documentary on the first flowers. I’m really excited to see if Archaefructus liaoningensis really was the first flowering plant.
Not sure. Since I speak the only non-tonal official language in mainland Southeast Asia, I’m not accustomed to actually listening to anything tonal. If you want more varities of traditional music, iTunes carries them. They don’t carry any of the recent artists but I can find them easily on youtube because there’s virtually no copyright enforcement.
Opps, I meant to point at number 2 not 3. Number 3 sounds Mandarin, but the romanization appears to be Hokkien. The chorus of the song is 999 roses.
Hi Caine. Yeah, it was pretty funny.
My bad, though. It wasn’t Science-Based Medicine, it was Neurologica
I didn’t, but thanks for bringing it to my attention. I don’t own the book (I borrowed it from a friend [OMG socialism!]) so I wasn’t able to verify the statement.
Ol’ Greg:
Got your e-mail; will reply tomorrow.
In case anyone wonders, I have decided it’s not worth wasting any time in dealing with the quack, so I won’t.
Also, trying to read Pharyngula standing in front of my PC because of disk prolapse sustained during moving house this week is not very comfortable.
Oh, and wrt that, I passed on the hydrotherapy and herbals bit, and went straight to stuff that works.
Rorschach, sorry to hear that, glad you have the stuff that works. I have degenerative discs, my own personal pain factory for the last 14 years. Hope you’re feeling better quickly!
Ouch! I know exactly how that feels. And yes, hydrocodone is way better than hydrotherapy.
The quack® would probably prescribe unicorn farts and faerie kisses, but I’d recommend opiates every time.
Hope your back feels better soon, Rorschach. I can certainly relate to what you’re going through.
Thanks guys….
I just had the most wonderful experience !! A nice man in a van drove up to the house, and delivered
booze and cigsgroceries to me !Oh, hey Jadehawk, do you remember those Dr Oetker Spinaci pizzas in Germany?? I used to live on them in med school, and hadn’t seen one for like, 10 years, but Coles online in Oz sell them yay, I love being a cripple !!
Caine, I only have one (1) bad disc. That’s bad enough. I can’t imagine all of them going to hell at once.
When are those durned scientists going to come up with an effective spine transplant?
Priority for spine transplants should be given to politicians who deal with religious lobby groups.
Sorry if that sounded unsympathetic, guys. I was just being a smartarse. I’m sure back trouble is horrible. But I guess that’s what we get for evolving from quadripeds so quickly. :(
For some reason, I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for the spines of politicians in general, let alone those who get all squicky with lobbyists.
Ok, no way am I working my way back through all of this…
To my regret, I couldn’t attend the convention despite only being one scant state away.
However, if there is an Adelaide get-together, I can’t really afford to pass that opportunity up.
On another note, I see the usual suspects are at it again at the Intersuction. I suggest we just leave them to it and let them soil their own blog.
Boygenius:
One is bad enough! Darn things just aren’t durable enough. I have four fully blown discs, those are the hellraisers. Have you done spinal shots? When they work, it’s great, but the longest they’ve lasted on me is eight days.
That’s something I could get behind! Years ago, after I was first diagnosed, I decided to consult with a neurosurgeon. At the time, MedCenter was inbetween neurosurgeons, so I reluctantly consulted with a doc at St. A’s, the catholic hospital.
Doc has a spiel, and he starts in after viewing my scans. He started doing fusion, using cadaver bone. Okay, so far, so good. Then he tells me, I don’t go in through the back. Oh no, this doc, he goes in from the front, moving all those pesky internal organs to the side. Naturally, this necessitates a week long stay in the hospital post surgery. When he slows down a bit, I ask him how many of these he has performed. I’m told 30, and he proudly adds, only nicked one abdominal aorta, caught it in plenty of time!
As I’m attempting to replace my jaw, which has fallen to the ground, he happily adds, “oh, and before the surgery, the OR staff and nurses all come in and we have a prayer circle.” I couldn’t get out of there fast enough.
ambulocetacean, while spine transplants for pols isn’t a bad idea at all, I’d plump for them all getting brain transplants first. ;D
Oh, and at the end of my consult with PrayerDoc, he asked me to let him know my decision, even if I decided not to have the surgery. I said “I’ve already decided I won’t be having the surgery. I don’t want a surgeon who prays to god for success, I want a surgeon who thinks he *is* god.”
Boygenius, no sympathy here, either. It’s just obvious that most pollies are in desperate need of some backbone.
ambulocetacean
I don’t think politicians have a problem with their backbones. They seem to have plenty of spine when standing up for insurance companies and banks.
Fixed.
Caine, never done spinal shots. (my problem is acute, not chronic) When I first injured my back I queried a half dozen friends with the same injury. They had all had discectomies (sp?) and regretted it. Worse off than they were before. I refused to let them cut on me. I still have pain and problems, but at least I can still work for a living.
Back pain is a helluva thing. Intelligent Designer, indeed.
Blf, too right. Thanks for the fix. :)
Pygmy Loris, Very true. Sometimes my thinking can be a bit simplistic.
Boygenius, yeah, you have to be careful when it comes to surgeries, in this regard, they just don’t have a high success rate. I’ve had to have two in order to relieve pressure on nerves, but that’s as far as I’ve gone. A friend of mine did the metal plate and screws option, she was in for a second surgery less than a year later.
Ok, argument from personal anecdote here because it’s too hard to find the studies standing up atm, discectomy does have a 80-90% success rate measured as relief of symptoms or improvement of neurology, if, and that’s the big one here, if the indication for surgery is right.
So to repeat, if the indication is right, surgery is indeed very successful.
As to “spinal shots”, which means injection of a local anaesthetic and a steroid into a facet joint, I haven’t seen convincing evidence that it’s better then just popping Cortisone tablets.When the surgeon suggested this to me, I asked him to show me evidence that it is superior, and he couldn’t, so I said no thanks.
In my case it was L5/S1 disk prolapse impinging the root leading to drop foot and leg pain, surgery(incidentally, by a guy I happily refer to as god)fixed it so that I woke up afterwards and had my leg function back and was painfree.
What I have now is an angry L4/L5 disk, that plays up when angered by things like, say, moving house on my own !!
Look at us. A bunch of old farts sitting around kvetching about our sciatica and what not. I wonder what the cool kids are doing tonight?
Rorschach, yep, that’s what spinal shots are. I did them three times, first time, it helped considerably, especially as I was out on long photography trips with hikes at the time. The next two times, not at all. I don’t have cortisone tablets though, so no comparison in that regard for me.
This is a test, pay no mind:
Testimonium, Syriac Historia Ecclesiastica
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
הוא לם בהנא זבנא גברא חד חכימא דשמה ישוע. אן ולא לן דגברא נקריוהי. איתוהי הוא גיר סעורא דעבדא שביחא ומלפנא דבני אנשא. הנון דברגתא מקבלין לה לשררא. ולסגיאא מן יהודיא ולסגיאא דין אף מן עממא תלמד הוא. משיחא דין איתוהי הוא. ולה איך דמן סהדותא דאנשא דשוהי דעמן. יהבה פילטוס למסם ברשא דצליבא. והנון דאחבוהי לא שליו מן חובה. אתחזי להון גיר מן בתר תלתא יומין תוב כד חי. דנביא דאלהא הלין ורבו איך הלין אמרו עלוהי תמיהתא. ועדם ליומנא לא מגרדא עמא דכדסטינאדמנה משתמה
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Testimonium, Michael the Syrian
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
דבהלין זבנא אית הוא גברא חד חכימא דשמה ישוע. אן ולא לן דגברא נקריוהי. איתוהי הוא גיר סעורא דעבדא שביחא ומלפנא דשררא. ולסגיאא מן יודיא ומן עממא תלמדו. מסתברא דמשיחא איתוהי הוא. ולו איך סהדותא דדישנוהי דעמא מטלהדא. יהבה פילטוס למסברשא דצליבא ומית והנון דין דאחבוהי לא שליו מן חובה. אתחזי להון מן בתר ג יומין כד חי. נביא גיר דאלהא ודאיך הלין אמרו עלוהי תמיהתא. ועדמא ליומנא לא מגרדא עמא דכדסטינא דמנה ועדמא אשתמה.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Boygenius:
They’re bitching about their spines. ;D Speaking of, I’m going to lay mine down for the night. Er, morning. G’night all.
Rorschach, L5/S1 is exactly where my problem is. I had drop foot and serious leg pain for @ two weeks. After two weeks of PT, I was at a point where it was tolerable and with no more drop foot.
I still have numbness down across the front of my shin and over the top of my foot to my big toe, but the horrid electrical nerve pain has mostly gone away.
ambulocetacean,
I think we all say that politicians have no spine when what we mean is that they have dramatically misplaced priorities. Fundraising, protecting monied interests, supporting the status quo, etc. are not the deep values we wish they would support, so we say they’re spineless. It’s very frustrating to realize the people we vote for either don’t have the same commitment to our values or lie about their own values to get into office.
I’ve been trying to read some of the famous dystopian novels lately (specifically Nineteen Eighty-four and Fahrenheit 451), and one of the things that occurred to me has to do with what values a person is willing to sacrifice for. My values, equality before the law, opportunity, social and economic justice, preserving the biosphere and endangered species, freedom of speech and inquiry, are very important to me. I’d sacrifice quite a lot for these things, but I don’t think politicians are willing to sacrifice much for the same values. They’re not even willing to sacrifice their jobs, more less something like their lives. Meanwhile the same politicians ask our young soldiers to sacrifice their lives for meaningless wars. It’s all very depressing.
The question in my mind is what can be done to get people into office who are willing to make the difficult choices and commit to building our society into a better one.
G’night, Caine. May the morning bring you a spine showered with unicorn farts and faerie kisses.
Failing that, pop an oxy.
Pygmy Loris @339
I think the first problem is one of democracy – most politicians realise that as soon as they start to make ‘difficult’ choices they will be removed from the position of making choices. Populist sentiment (upon which most modern democracies seem to be built) is not conducive to any sort of uncomfortable self-sacrifice required for long term goals.
There seems to me to be two possible ways to change this. The simplest would be to impose some sort of consistent long term decision making power external to democratic process. Of course the main problem with this idea is that the decision making power may not be making decisions consistent with your stated aims (getting some sort of agreement on what would constitute a ‘better’ society would only be the first challenge – regulating and ensuring that the power responsible for achieving it would be a major headache).
Alternatively you could try educating the populace to a level where the democratic process transcended the short-term knee-jerk model it seems to have settled into today. Of course the assumption here is that a better education would naturally lead to a desire for a better, more egalitarian society, and that people would support politicians acting against their short-term interest in favour of their long-term interest.
In practice I doubt either ‘solution’ would produce the results I would desire. I think the best we can hope for is a series of ‘little’ victories, where small changes to the system are frequently made and the most beneficial of the changes tend to be retained while the least beneficial tend to be repealed – a sort of Political natural selection.
Pygmy Loris:
I don’t pretend to know the answer, but one of the things we can do is take the money out of the process by publicly funding campaigns. Imposing term-limits might help. Constructing guillotines outside every statehouse. Torches and pitchforks. Perhaps we could do something as radical as teaching our children a strong background in history and civics.
Sorry, ‘Tis, I left out economics. My bad.
Owlmirror, #336 – all of a sudden I believe in G-d! And crap, it’s Friday afternoon and the sun’s setting; for some reason I feel that that’s important – what did you do?!?!?
Pygmy Loris,
Aargh. I wrote a bunch of stuff directly into the comment box but it’s been held for moderation because I used the word sh*t. Once.
Anyway, it wasn’t that profound or interesting and it will no doubt turn up eventually. I can’t be arsed writing it again because I really should be working.
Dvalin Zvena Ethan is one potent Hcima Dshmh Jesus.
I don’t know what it means, but it makes me feel uneasy.
ambulocetacean,
<Sven DiMilo>
Fuck Euphemism Week!
</Sven DiMilo>
This is a truly unexpected side-effect of messing about with transliterating Syriac to modern Hebrew script in Unicode.
If I tweak a few more things, maybe I can turn water into wine.
That would be awesome !!
Back button on your browser, change the offending word, and post it again ?
Been there, dont that a lot this week…:-)
Hi Rorschach,
Thanks. I did try that, but it didn’t work. Said the page had expired or something, I refreshed it and got a blank comments form. No biggie, apart from the fact that Pygmy Loris’s post to me deserved a response. It’ll turn up.
Boygenius, is that what that said? I thought it was the Hebrew lyrics to La Cucaracha. And how do you and Sven do that?
PopeMaledict, thanks. Not the first time I’ve been misled by Wikipedia, then.
So I was listening to ESPN radio this morning and one of the people on there talking about the basketball tournament said this about whoever was in charge of picking what games were being televised.
I wonder if the Colgate Twins home for wayward crybabies is going to mount a campaign against ESPN now?
Because of course we all know Doug Gottlieb really wants that person shot.
Elvis singing 500 miles :
As the first item in a new trend (?):
It’s A Strange World Out There I
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/weirdnewsvideo/7456716/Micro-pig-turns-heads-in-London.html
I hope the owner had her licence with her!
Didn’t you know that if you wish to take your pet pig out for a walk in England and Wales you have to have a licence? Your Local Health Authority will issue you with a “Pet Pig Walking Licence” which is valid for a year. Walking your pet pig is recommended for the health of your pig. And we all want healthy pigs don’t we? Healthy pigs make great B****. [Checks Euphemism list – finds the word is not banned – BACON].
You must carry the licence with you each time you take your pet pig for a walk. The route to be followed must be submitted by the applicant for the licence for approval. Once approved, it must be defined on the copy carried by the walker. Deviation from the route is not allowed.
This only applies to England and Wales. Pet pig walking is not allowed in Scotland. The Scottish Government does not appear to care whether you have healthy pigs or not.
You think I’m joking?
See page 7 of your helpful, handy Government Guide on everything you need to know about keeping pet pigs – but didn’t know you had to ask. Remember, ignorance of the Law is no excuse.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalhealth/publications/Advice_Guidance/A_G_Pigs171209.pdf
Also, be aware of the requirements of the 40 pages of:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/movements/documents/la-guidance.pdf
And it might be helpful to do a search of the DEFRA site:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/defrasearch/search_results.jsp?template=&category=&doctype=&options=&date=&database=Internet_Files%2B&batchsize=20&query=PET+PIG+WALKING+LICENCES+
This turns up 52 items. Remember: ignorance of the Law is no excuse. Happy pet pig walking!
Oh my fudging dog! Anybody else see this abomination:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100319/wl_nm/us_dutch_military_gays;_ylt=AiGqJBtcTdHl65MVmWOt3r.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNtNGlnM2RpBGFzc2V0A25tLzIwMTAwMzE5L3VzX2R1dGNoX21pbGl0YXJ5X2dheXMEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwMyBHBvcwM3BHB0A2hvbWVfY29rZQRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNkdXRjaHJlc3BvbmQ-
I want to take Sheehan to the gym and introduce him to some gay men.
I’m sure we all agree that the Telegraph is absolutely the most reliable guide to reality. Hint: their business depends on telling their readers that they, the sturdy yeomanry of Olde England, are being unfairly and unjustly put-upon by overweening bureaucrats, preferably European. Hence this sort of bullshit, and of course the traditional EU-regulations-require-straight-bananas bullshit.
Actually scanning the defra document, which is only 40 pages of BIG F’ING PRINT, shows that the regulations are perfectly sensible. You have to specify a walking route (once a year! big deal) so that, if you’re planning to walk your pig through a livestock market or somebody’s farm, you can be told not to be such an idiot. Foot-and-mouth, blue tongue, various influenzas: you want to keep a pet pig, you don’t get to start a panzoonotic.
The Torygraph can go kwok themselves sideways with a Leica rangefinder.
On a more positive note, have you seen the thing in Nano Letters about photosynthesis in a frog-based foam? A group from U of Cincinnati (Prof’s name is Carlo Montemagno) have put just the essential enzymes for photosynthesis into a foam substrate and got really impressive energy-conversion efficiencies for making sugar from sunlight. If this scales up it’ll knock bioethanol and algaculture into a cocked hat. The coolest part is what they made their foam from. Detergents were bad for the enzymes and vesicles in the photosynthetic system, so they went with a surfactant protein, Ranaspumin-2; which, as the name suggests, is a frog foam protein. One of those rainforest frogs (Tungara) that lays eggs in a stable foam. Don’t worry, you don’t have to milk a frog to build the system- they put the gene into a bacterial system to get their surfactant.
Now can we please try not to make things extinct? That obscure rainforest organism might just have what it takes to save our collective ass.
I look forward to a future of photosynthetic amphibian meringue.
@Steven Wells:
Wow… that’s a unique kind of science there.
The Telegraph is better than most British newspapers. Like all major British newspapers, it does have a political bias, but unlike some of its more downmarket rivals, I’ve never known it to just make stuff up.
There are a few newspapers which I will not read, due to their record of inventing utter bullshit in order to sell more papers, as well as feeding irrational public scares and cheerleading for authoritarian policies. These include the Daily Mail, the Sun and the News of the World.
Despite your caricature, I don’t think the Telegraph can be blamed for bringing to light the gradual erosion of individual liberty in this country by over-regulation. This ranges from the relatively trivial but annoying (speed cameras, which do nothing for road safety but provide a convenient revenue stream for local authorities) to the very serious and dangerous (the national identity database, biometric passports and so on).
Easily my favorite phrase I’ve come across in the last few days
A little digging does show the Telegraph may not be as clean as all that. Their science coverage, particularly, stinks:
http://www.badscience.net/2009/01/the-telegraph-misrepresent-a-scientists-work-on-climate-and-then-refuse-to-correct-it-when-he-writes-to-them/
http://www.badscience.net/2008/09/dont-let-the-facts-spoil-a-good-story/
They provide a home to Christopher Booker, a climate change denialist who produces this kind of bullshit:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/6679082/Climate-change-this-is-the-worst-scientific-scandal-of-our-generation.html
I stand by my earlier comments in re lateral photoapparatic autokwokage.
That’s very very VERY cool. Much respect for the coiner of the term “ranaspumin-2” (actually, I guess, for whoever had already coined it for what became ranaspumin-1, after they characterized -2). (But I think both the ‘ranaspumin’ and the ‘-2’ are necessary for full enjoyment.)
Oh, and
FUCK EUPHEMISM WEEK!
(you have to spell it right, with the all-caps).
And when I type “FUCK EUPHEMISM WEEK!,” I am paying homage every time to my hero Paul Krassner, who published this window sign [important:] in 1963:
[large, profane, classic, and NSFpearl-clutchingW]
Don’t apologise. I for one am learning a lot and appreciate the honesty.
As for the squandered goodwill, perhaps David will be able to dig this up for me. I believe one of the major French papers ran this headline on the 12th “Aujourd’hui tous le monde sont Americains” (pardon my French). I always think of that when I hear of ‘Freedom Fries’, but I haven’t been able to dig up photographic evidence.
Walton,
I hope that you are beginning to feel better but right now you sound just like Lord Pearson of UKIP did on the Today programme this morning.
J*hn Kw*k:
Can you believe the guy? I mean, can you? Because I just can’t believe the guy.
Sven! Ahahahahaha… seriously. It’s like he has a highschool mentioning tic.
I can only imagine it if he went to Oxford or something. You know who graduated from there. You know who else. And who else… etc.
He’d never have time to eat.
jeez that whole thread is full of amazing Hammondisms. Kw*k and McCarthy are arguing about the proper online place for Pharyngula after they successfully get it kicked off teh Borg.
I can’t stand it…must…log off…
maureen @#365: I’m now on a regime of penicillin for the tonsillitis, which is slowly helping. But I’m still quite ill. Last night was not fun (many of my symptoms, such as high temperature, shivering fits and sweating, seem for some reason to occur only at night) and I didn’t get much sleep.
As to Lord Pearson, I’m not sure whether to take that as a compliment or an insult. :-) But I’m not at my best right now.
Hmmm, I wonder if Don Kwokixote de la Stuyvesant is like one of those child stars. Achieving your high point in life before the age of 18 seems to psychologically damaging. You end up being a drug addict, a porn star, or sidekick to Ray Comfort (Growing Pains indeed).
@360: I find it hard to regard speed cameras as a threat to civil liberties, inasmuch as they only extract a revenue stream from people who are breaking the law and endangering others- by speeding. It seems weird that anti-speed camera vandals were getting cheered on as righteous vigilantes (e.g. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3597911/Labour-targets-middle-class-criminals.html ) by people who’d have a heart attack if faced with a “burglars against burglar alarms” campaign.
Thanks for the update, Walton, and I hope that progress continues.
As for Lord Pearson – not so much an insult as bewilderment. He was up against Evan Davis and for two minds to meet, well, you need to minds two begin with!
But at least the child star did something other than being in a certain place. I mean, what does he do other than talk about his school? Maybe I’m just naive here and he’s quite accomplished, but it just seems odd. I mean even if it is a school with a very rigorous admissions program, it is still just a school. The school itself isn’t the prestigious part it’s about the resources the school makes available in the hopes that the better kind of person they admit will then in turn achieve greater things.
Ugh. Don’t read the comments on yahoo news stories. I need to write that on my hand.
Walton, I’m glad to hear you’re starting to get better. It’ll take a week or so probably. Get lots of rest. Those infections can be hard to kick. You don’t seem exactly like the sort of person who stays up every night dancing but try not to kill yourself with studying either :P
At the moment, I’m doing neither… mostly just sleeping, taking medicine, and commenting on Pharyngula. Studying is what I should be doing, given that I have finals in June and nine subjects to revise. :-(
But I’m leaving Oxford and going home for a few days; it will hopefully be easier for me to recuperate at home, where I won’t have to worry about cooking my own meals and the like.
Walton,
Make sure you have plenty of fluid, and rest.
Story about Irish Catholic Church abuse scandal on front page of CNN webpage this morning.
That should prove to be most entertaining…
Yeek… just avoid the comments… the depth and breadth of faith-born stupidity in this country just somehow still amazes me.
Walton,
Make sure you have plenty of druids, and fester.
Hey, you’ll never guess what’s happening!
Ray Comfort is misrepresenting evolutionary theory again! This is my surprised face :|
Sorry if this has already been viewed and dissected elsewhere, I have been away from Pharyngula for the past couple of weeks.
Article by Hitchen’s brother
Usagichan,
Long-term planning does seem to be a big problem in politics, especially because of the short-term election cycle for the House of Representatives here in the States.
boygenius,
Education would, hopefully, make a difference in how the masses approached voting, but I don’t know that that’ll happen any time soon. Did you see the Daily Show on Wednesday? The TSBOE decided Oscar Romero shouldn’t be in the standards because they didn’t know who he was. GAH! What is wrong with these people?
BTW Sorry for the late reply. I went to bed last night before y’all posted.
@382
For some reason the page comes up blank when I click that link. Considering one of the other recent articles on the blog is More sex education means more teenage pregnancies…always, I doubt I am missing much other than a religious wretch trying to improve his readership by emphasizing his relationship with a better known relative (sure, he’s an atheist bastard, but I still love him because religion is all about family values!).
Peter Hitchins has never once had anything worthwhile to say for the whole of his miserable existence.
There is no reason to suppose that has changed with the article that was linked to.
Is it just me, or does Peter Hitchens seriously need a little bit of manscaping on that forehead caterpillar of his?
Oh, sweet jebus… Bill Donohue has come out to defend the catholic church in an editorial to CNN.
I have not yet read it… but I wanted to pass it along, as no doubt this will require some discussion here…
Now, off to intentionally hurt my brain… OWWWW…
Donohue’s defense?
“Other people rape children, too. Why pick on the Catholic Church for rapes that happened decades ago, that we then hushed up just like everyone else during that time?”
SRSLY.
I think I just threw up on my keyboard a little.
Donohue seems to forget that the Catholic Church was supposed to be above the world, and to be setting a good example. For him to use the defense that everyone else was doing it is rather lame. Especially since not everyone else was doing it–churches and schools are just about the only organizations that people trust their children to, for improvement and education.
Morning / Afternoon / Evening all.
I haven’t reallya ctually read the previous 400 or so posts, so this might be a bit off topic but it seemed like a good place to start.
I am English, and an atheist. I live with my American wife in Ohio. She is a baptist Christian. Not one of the extreme ones, but still basically a fundie (she has lots of other redeeming features).
Being married does not stop the debate, or there is no apologetic behaiviour, or accomodationism…the discussions are great fun.
Anyhow, seeing as we were out having a nice dinner the other evening, the topic came up and we were being remarkably civil about it. A few points made here and there, everything you’ve all heard, read and argued about yourselves. At the end though, she said “I would like to be able to speak to someone who used to believe what I believe, and doesn’t any more”.
I’m going to call this progress, and in the light of this, I want to actually find someone who falls into this category. Are there any prior Mid-West Baptists who were real literal believers and are now atheists?
If there are, it would be great for you to get in touch. It might work, it might not, but I’d appreciate anyone putting themselves forward.
Thanks.
@dingdong
I’d suggest she read one of Dan Barker’s books, such as Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America’s Leading Atheists.
Finally got round to signing the Libel Reform Petition. Not that I think it helps much. But I’ve also written the BCA and asked if they have made or will make a public statement of support against the BCA. Anyone here a member of the British Cement Association or other such unfortunately named organisations? It might be fun to have a Project BCA akin to Project Steve.
Ugh, Donahue makes me sick.
Even IF other people do it, you do not then just ignore the crime, hide it away – and here’s the kicker – let it continue!
That is what people are criticizing the Catholic Church for. Yes, other people rape little children. It’s sad, it’s a sickening thing, but those people are usually taken out of situations where they can continue to rape those kids.
If a teacher rapes a student, that teacher is fired and never, ever allowed to work in a school again. The Catholic Church is condoning the behavior by not properly protecting the young children.
There was so much vile, disgusting, abhorrent filth in that Donohue editorial, I didn’t want to stuff it all here. I decided to attack it on my blog instead, if you’re interested.
I’m imagining Donohue on an episode of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit. He’s the expert witness for the defense and his testimony goes like this: “the defendant is not the only one who has molested children, so why are you picking on them?” Cue priceless look on Meloni’s face.
#356 Stephen Wells
Stephen, I can only assume in your haste to attack the Daily Telegraph you did not bother to read the link/story or, if you did, you made no attempt to tie it in with my comment.
The Telegraph story was neutral. It made no mention of the fact that you DO need a licence to do what the breeder did. That was my comment on the rather twee story. Those documents do exist. You do need a licence to walk a pet pig. You do need to carry that licence with you and you are not allowed to change your route once it has been agreed.
I find this obtrusive and rather silly. Of course you don’t take a pet pig into places where it could spread disease. But do you really need to have a licence rubber stamped by some officious official with the threat that if you go out without it or as much as walk down a different road, or in a different order, you can be prosecuted?
Well, I most certainly don’t agree. What an emotionally-loaded comment! It’s a lot better than most of the other English newspapers (which says little when you look at The Sun, The Star, the People and the News of the World to say nothing of the Daily and Sunday Sport**). And it out sells the other broadsheets. The Garundia (famous for its liberal/left bias and typographical errors) makes a loss and only stays afloat because the Government subsidises it by placing all Civil Service ads in the Guardian (and, as far as I can tell, nowhere else in the Press). The Independent is a disaster.
**
http://www.britishpapers.co.uk/redtops/sunday-sport/
Dingdong, you might ask around some of the college students in your area. I knew several kids who lost it during college.
I am a midwesterner myself, but I was pretty much done with Christianity before my parents took us to Baptist churches. Baptists certainly finished it off, though.
“If you’re an atheist, thank a Baptist”
@Celtic_Evo:
Bet it felt good to get that off your chest, huh?
Oh, you mean you didn’t like the end? The little bit of blatant antisemitism where he makes the argument that “Jews and Public School Teachers are just as bad, but don’t get the publicity”?
I actually coughed up a lung after reading that. How is this guy allowed to be anywhere near anyone?
oO
#360, #361
I agree with Walton about speed cameras. The problem is that they indeed were sold to the public as a way of improving road safety. The cameras were set up in areas with a high frequency of accidents. The Government then “proved” they worked by showing that the number of accidents went down where the cameras were. Capable statisticians who pointed out that this was nonsense were pilloried by the Government who could not understand that this was merely regression to the mean.
“Euphemism week”
I notice that v*gemite is banned. How about “Marmite”?
Dingdong, I am a little concerned that your wife might be looking for someone to lead her to atheism. Most of us, perhaps you as well, got here on a long journey of self-discovery…or some such rot.
Sanction asked why she wants so specific a person to talk to, to which I say that many Baptists tend to be True Christians, and wouldn’t value the testimony of a Catholic (who obviously was wrong in the first place. And which makes me think she may be seeking a guide, instead of getting there on her own.
But, dingdong, you know her best (and love her most). Congrats on such a good relationship and good luck with making it even better.
Celtic Evolution @ 387, I really don’t need to see such vileness before I’m completely awake. I clicked though and now I’m feeling sick.
Donoabomination:
Ugh, ick, *spit* How in the hell can this
mancreature write this with any sort of sincerity? Does he think all the priests did was follow kids around hinting how sexy they were?See, Jews did it! Therefore, leave priests alone. *facepalm*
Well, that’s one way to put it. Donoabomination is concentrated nastiness.
Alright, well I’m off work. I’ll let you all know how the weekend goes – with the whole fundie parents possibly finding out I’m an atheist thing – or at least that I believe evolution is real, thing.
Good luck, Kevin!
Oh… but, minor nit to pick:
just remove the word “believe”… evolution is fact and is real. Period. No belief required.
Re: “believe”, but only tangentially
On Facebook a while back I saw a friend of mine defending her church to her mother. Her mother thinks the church is culty “because they believe in dinosaurs and astrology.” My first thought was, “well astrology is crap.” Then I did a double-take. I could not bring myself to email my friend and ask her what her mom thinks about dinosaurs. How do you not “believe” in them? It occurred to me that either 1) she meant “believe that dinosaurs were alive millions of years ago rather than much more recently” or b) her mom thinks dinosaur bones were planted by the devil to trick us. I like them both too much to get in the middle of that.
Want a painful demonstration of why Kirshenmoon make a habit to attack PZ every once and awhile?
Mooneybanned made a post about Rush Limbaugh and the “go kill yourself” incident. He didn’t mention PZ at all. In 3 days, it has 58 comments, about 55 of which are devoted to talking trash about PZ.
Early this morning, he made a post about his PoI shows, asking for feedback to help brainstorm new ideas and plot new directions. Between The Intersection and the CFI forums, he’s gotten 3 comments. One is a contentless McCarthy rimjob, one is a “good job, but perhaps you could interview someone you’re not already in bed with ideologically”, and the third just agrees with the second and recommends a source of inspiration.
Basically, he’s built up a cult of personality centered around attacking New Atheists. If he doesn’t give them food for their paranoia and anger, his blog looks like a wasteland. It’s painful to watch.
KOPD:
Maybe they believe dinosaurs were the first mystic astrologers, a la the centaurs in the Harry Potter books. ;p
About 20 °C outside, like yesterday. :-)
Friday Weird Science: Why does asparagus make your pee smell? A closely related topic was brought up a few subthreads ago, I’m sure you all remember it vividly.
I’ve read till comment 372 on this subthread…
I’m on the Dinosaur Mailing List, so I don’t miss any new dinosaur discoveries and not too much else. I daily read Tet Zoo, Pharyngula, and Jadehawk’s blog… and I click on “Now on ScienceBlogs” and “Top 5 Whatever” when I see an interesting title there.
No feeds.
I know. This got, IIRC, several days of coverage in the main TV evening news! “Ha, ha, laugh at the crazy… and deeply scary Americans! :-S ”
Is “scare” the word you intend? Do you perhaps mean “disgust”?
Disclaimer: I haven’t seen any of her videos. I prefer reading about Fedexia.
I’ve been thinking of this one all the time. … Turns out I had no idea whatsoever about the contents; I only knew the title character and the weird title song from TV. Turns out I actually missed something.
…
…
I think I’m too shocked to cry. At least it ended halfway well.
What exactly does “make nice” mean here?
My experience with psychologists (fortunately haven’t needed any outright psychiatrists) has been that they know far too little about the diversity of, uh, the human condition. It’s of course not as bad as with Freud anymore, who generalized his few turn-of-the-century-upperclass patients to all of humankind ever, but it’s still not enough.
Poppycock. How does “analysis of the existing data” rule out the infamous Precambrian rabbit, unless you already assume that evolution happens (or maybe day-age creationism or something else strongly sequential)?
Especially… how would it in 1859, before even Archaeopteryx had been discovered, let alone any Precambrian fossil?
And what does “previously ruled out by experiment” mean in this context? Finding that humans have 23 chromosome pairs while the others have 24, and finding that the chromosomes don’t line up, would be strong evidence against a recent common origin. That just didn’t happen.
Absolutely not. “Test” doesn’t mean “proof”.
Tell them that there is no such thing as proof in science. There are only falsification and parsimony. Passing a test just means “it hasn’t been disproved yet”.
As long as you can answer the question “if I were wrong, how would I know?” all the way down with something other than “I wouldn’t”, you’re doing science. As soon as you stop being able to do that, you’re not doing science anymore.
Easier said than done, but in principle you could move to a country where studying doesn’t mean debt…
“Support the troops – bring them home”
At home I have a page bookmarked that explains why hemp paper doesn’t work. I’ll post it.
Do you also get this effect from more modern compositions, like… The East Is Red? (Though that one is based on an old love song.)
1) Perfect pitch is more common among native speakers of tonal languages, but “the vast majority” isn’t true.
2) Some such languages make a lot of use of pitch. Others, like Mandarin, don’t – the 4 tones of (Standard) Mandarin differ mostly in contour. I haven’t tried to learn Cantonese, but I think I’d find it a lot harder than Mandarin.
Awesome.
I was watching my brother play a very, very nice game of Civ II, full of prairie, when someone switched the TV on in the other room… I don’t remember other details, though.
Except that I was constantly reminding me “this looks like a movie, but it’s not one”.
*drags mind forcefully into the gutter; what could she mean?*
Agh! LOL! I didn’t even think that far! X-D
I’m not going to forget this anytime soon. X-) Thanks for making me aware!
Which in turn means… thanks for confirming the pattern. Took you 11 minutes this time; that must be within the standard deviation. <duck & cover>
Oh Moonenbaum, I said “deviation”… <facepalm>
<headdesk>
Rusty chainsaw, sideways.
Oooh, I should have figured that out on my own. You see, I sleep on my belly; I actually like the pressure (that’s a symptom of Asperger’s), and (surprisingly) my shoulders stick out too far that I could lie on a side for any length of time without pain, not to mention the lack of padding around my legs – it’s uncomfortable to stack them. On a weirder level (again Asperger’s, I suppose), I don’t think I’d like the asymmetry of preferring a side.
Lying on my back, while I’m at it, means I can’t fall asleep except when I’m very tired, and in that case I immediately get a nightmare, wake up, and use that opportunity to turn around and finally relax. Somehow I hate having to lift all my internal organs against gravity just to breathe.
</TMI>
I interrupted writing this comment twice (for hours at a time) to get some work done, and everything important has already been said, so I’ll simply make cheap ad-hominem attacks on your sources:
Forschungen in Komplementärmedizin und klassischer Naturheilkunde? Research in complementary medicine and Classical Natural Healing?
Professorship for medicine theory and compl. medicine at the medicine school of East/West Bumfu
ck, somewhere in Germany…I find it very similar, in southern Mandarin it can even be identical.
In my experience, they never get them confused. The Japanese do all the time, and the one Cantonese I’ve heard spoke good English but couldn’t get friend right.
You’re right, it’s parsimony, not falsification, that’s at work here.
No, the earliest ones are about 20 million years older. They’re not as spectactularly preserved, though!
Oh, that makes sense, I think.
Thought of this as soon as I had switched the computer off. Of course. “999 roses” doesn’t occur in 4 at all.
Very well said!
Huh? To me, in Opera for Mac, it looks like ordinary Hebrew text. No weirdness anywhere.
Fuc
king awesome.Your French!?! The two of us are the resident armchair linguists here, so you can kwok yourself sideways with a Leica rangefinder. Would be “Aujourd’hui tout le monde est des Américains” (hm… bit awkward…). Specifically, tous is the plural, and, uniquely, the s is even pronounced!
But it wasn’t. I remember clearly that it was “Nous sommes tous des Américains” (we are all Americans). No qualification about time or anything. Very impressive; I didn’t expect it.
ROTFLMAO!!!
What exactly does “make nice” mean here?”make nice” = accomodationism
I meant side of the bed, not side of their own body.
JefferyD, Maureen, and others who’ve been talking about PTSD, re comment #203: my son and I have been talking lately about the behaviours he’s observed and heard of in police and both of us think that is a combat-like experience, although much milder. The police tend to break out in alcoholic self-medication, spouse abuse, and emotional turmoil. Then there’s the natural consequences of feeling “above the law” because their colleagues won’t turn them in.
And of course there’s the experiences of the civilians on the ground, who may experience panic when they hear a helicopter coming back or see someone in uniform. How do you think a pile of machetes at the garden store affects someone from Rwanda? Or the sight of Christmas Mass or the Pope in his robes on the front page of a newspaper for a victim of sexual abuse? Or an alcohol ad, a siren, a fire alarm for those touched by related trauma?
Those of us who have been lucky so far are DAM lucky. So how about a little public healthcare that includes counselling, physiotherapy, and diagnostic tests for previous injuries or poisoning?
Best to all… Let’s be gentle to each other.
Same here, SC, OM. I went to donate blood in Toronto and was told there would be a wait of at least five hours.
No wonder I couldn’t find it again! Thanks. The sentiment was correct at least – squandered goodwill.
I guess I should try to find out more about this. My immediate thought is: What’ll they do once the substrate saturates with the sugar? They need to immobilise the photosynthetic machinery in a way that allows them to rinse away the downstream products. I guess the foam is a first step, but I doubt it’s firm enough to allow for any kind of continuous production.
::goes to look at the Jadeblawk::
Hmmm. It’s half past 10 pm, and the rain doesn’t stop. Maybe I should just go home anyway.
How did that happen?
I was taught it really was independent, by a self-confessedly conservative teacher who didn’t regard any other UK newspaper as independent.
Google finds 265 hits for “dinosaur denialist” in 0.11 seconds.
Yessssss :-)
What? That’s something people can have preferences about? o_O
…sheltered life…
Or in smashing wasps with their unprotected hands, as my great-grandfather is reported to have done.
Except to the accommodationists. :-þ
Be excellent to each other. :-)
Where I live (in California, ffs), many people hold Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh to be the only honest, independent news(!!) reporters.
Keyword “foam nest”. That sounds like it can withstand rain. Just wash the sugar out?
(That would be almost too good to be true. Almost.)
:-D
Looks like I’m doing her blogwhoring for her X-D
David Marjanović:
Oh yes. It can lead to relationship hell in some cases. I have to be on the left side, can’t sleep if I’m not. Some people are um…ambibedtrous, for a lack of a word. :D My husband can sleep on either side of the bed.
Ooo, ooo, pick me, pick me! Southern Baptist born and bred, in the heart of the great midwest.
Ring-tailed Lemur, if Chinese music sounds untuneful to you, is it in a quarter-tone scale instead of a half-tone scale like ours, so the intermediate notes sound out of tune?
So if you moved the pillow from one end to the opposite end, then you would have to sleep on the other side of the bed?
I’m not sure if that sounds weird, kinky, or you have a deep-seating fear of falling out of bed on your right side.
I mean, if one side of the bed was covered in sharp poisoned rusty caltrops and the other had an eager naked squid/slave/significantother/something I can imagine someone might, just might, prefer one side over the other…
Man, what a deep thread.
Kevin: I really hope the visit goes well with your parents.
Bride & others with postwar remembrances: Dad and Stepdad were both career army officers; Dad served as an infantryman in WWII, Korea and Vietnam; Stepdad was a green beret in Vietnam. Mom was born in 1941 in London, so experienced regular visits from B2 bombers and rationing from a young age. The ways in which their lives, and mine, were irrevocably affected by these circumstances is incalculable.
Vertebral discs: Another anecdotal datapoint for successful (cervical) discectomy and fusion here. Titanium cage, cadaver cells, negligible loss of mobility, pain happily resolved. So glad I did it.
Donohue: What a festering chunk of hagfish excrement.
NCAA Backet: Gaah! Taintlapping Hoyas.
Maybe I should finish writing the post I’ve been working on for three *weeks* now. I have the most maddening case of writers block for this particular piece only, it seems. I want to write it. I need to write it. I just can’t fuCKing write it. What the hell is wrong with me?
blf, what can I say? I’ve tried to sleep on the right, I just lay awake.
Excellent. Looks like it worked, then. Although, while it uses Hebrew letters, it is still in Syriac (basically a dialect of Aramaic). There’s more than a few cognates with Hebrew, and very similar grammar, but a different language in the same family.
The “truly unexpected side-effect” was the text making Wowbagger feel… pious… !!
“The time has come”, the Walrus said,
“To talk of many things:
Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
Of cabbages—and kings—
And why the sea is boiling hot—
And whether pigs have wings.”
Hum, guess you’re right. No mention of which side of the bed. So what can you say…?
I prefer the left. ;D
Dear lord,
Anderson Cooper finished Celebrity Jeopardy with $0, losing to Cheech Marin (yes, Cheech Marin of Cheech & Chong). This isn’t an isolated incident. Nancy Grace and Soledad O’Brien also finished third. As did Wolf Blitzer, finishing with negative $4,600. I remind you this is Celebrity Jeopardy. I think this really says something about CNN.
Re spinal problems, I had an apparent disk problem that was helped by physiotherapy (the Robin McKinley method). The physio actually scooched the disk back where it belonged with her pointy little elbow.
The cool kids are going to a lecture on evolutionary imagery at the Ontario Centre for Inquiry.
boygenius #343
I’m depressed that few people have any real knowledge of basic economics. I was trying to explain the economic problem1 to someone recently and we got bogged down in definitions. Budgets2, purchasing priorities3 and surplus4 are not arcane jargon used to obfuscate concepts. Economists use these words pretty much in the same manner as normal people.
1The economic problem is most simply explained by the question “how do we satisfy unlimited wants with limited resources?”
2A budget is a list of all planned expenses and revenues. In microeconomics, a budget line is the trade-offs between two or more goods.
3Purchasing priorities are the factors which determine which goods and services are bought before other goods and services. Most people will buy food before they buy liquor but for some people liquor may be more important.
4Surplus is used in economics for several related quantities. The consumer surplus is the amount that consumers benefit by being able to purchase a product for a price that is less than they would be willing to pay. The producer surplus is the amount that producers benefit by selling at a market price higher than they would be willing to sell for.
re David Marjanović @411:
I’m a little puzzled by this. Seems to me that being on one’s back requires the least effort to breathe (discounting snoring and apnea issues) in that it allows the ribcage to expand pretty freely and none of the internal organs are directly attached to the ribcage so why are they being lifted? Alternatively, diaphram breathing would be pushing the organs around but not really lifting them. Whereas, being on your stomach, expanding the ribcage does lift the whole body.
Tis,
Would it make you cry if I told you the first book I ever read about economics was Das Kapital?
We covered basic supply and demand in social studies in high school, but that was it. I took a class on global food distribution to fulfill my econ requirement in undergrad, and the two things I can remember from that course are 1)there’s enough food produced globally to feed everyone, so starvation and famine are distribution problems and 2)subsidies in the developed world hurt farmers in the developing world contributing to local famines and food insecurity.
Wait a second, I just remembered that I learned the bare basics of Keynesian economics in high school US history when we covered the Great Depression!
Now I get most of my econ knowledge from Paul Krugman’s blog.
I’m more depressed that so few people understand the difference between “markup” and “profit”. Too often I see people write (or hear people say) that a store that buys a good for X and sells for 2X is making 100% profit. Or that a company that sells an item for X that costs them X/10 to make, is making 1000% profit.
I’m sure you already know all about this stuff, but just in case you hadn’t come across them, there are lots of weighted blankets and such for getting that kind of sensory input.
I posted some time ago about a little local difficulty regarding a charity and the closure of a Day Centre.
Things have moved on a little and now Miss M is proposing direct action. She intends to deliver the following speech just before Fr. Dyson begins Mass on Sunday. Perhaps I should point out that Miss M is a fierce, redheaded atheist.
Any suggestions?
Any additions?
Pygmy Loris #433 & 434
I’m impressed. Das Kapital is not an easy book to read. I take it you only read the first volume (there are five in all, the fourth and fifth, written by Engels, are good remedies for insomnia).
There are other problems as well. Sometimes a regime will purposely block food distribution and/or confiscate food in an area. Also there might not be enough wealth in an area for people to buy available food.
This is a “yes but…” situation. Because of subsidies it is cheaper to buy Texan rice in Cambodia than Cambodian rice. However since the Texan rice harvest is much smaller than the Cambodian harvest, Cambodia is still a rice exporter. But First World agricultural subsidies do hurt Third World farmers trying to sell unsubsidized food.
This warms the cockles of my economist heart.
I can think of worse sources. I also read Krugman’s blog.
The physio actually scooched the disk back where it belonged with her pointy little elbow.
I’d make sure to get multiple scans before trying that.
If someone has an inflamed disk, it might rupture with point pressure put on it.
…that would be bad.
Tis,
I read the first three, never finished the two by Engels. As you said, they’re great cures for insomnia :)
I figured I was unclear. By distribution problems, I meant all of these issues (cultural, structural, geographic, etc.) that prevent the food from getting into the digestive systems of those who need it, including not having the money to get the food, regimes diverting the food to the army, in addition to actual physical problems getting food to different places.
Yeah, I was just trying to condense the two things that were essentially the basis for the course. We covered subsidies extensively. One major fact that has stuck with me is that the USA is the largest exporter of food in the world, so our subsidies have a disproportionate impact on other countries.
As for rice, I’m used to seeing it growing in Arkansas, but many of my friends from the North and Midwest are surprised that we grow any in the USA.
Marx is hard to read. I’ve read Das Kapital and Die Deutsche Ideologie (both in English). They’re books that you can’t really skim. I’m not sure if it’s because of differences in writing styles between German and English or the mid-19th century and now. I don’t have much comparison for that time period in German. Most of the stuff I read in German is either websites or scientific articles (some that are 40 or 50 years old, but still). Anyway, Marx uses whole paragraphs to set out his points. Each part of the paragraph is necessary to understand the whole, requiring the reader to actually read all of it rather that paying attention to the beginning and ending of paragraphs and chapters. It’s very different. Origin of Species is a much easier read and from the same general time period.
‘Tis Himself,
I sympathize with your situation with regard to your metier. I fear that our culture has become so specialized that even those of us who are educated are infintely ignorant outside of our own narrow domain.
I never took an economics course as an undergrad. So when I got into my thirties, I decided to rectify that failing. I bought a text by Gailbraith at a used book store and started working my way through it. It was fairly intuitive, although I’m sure what little knowledge I acquired is both outdated and shallow. Even so, I could at least understand Alan Greenspan when he gave his Fed briefings. ;-) And I understood enough to see the caca streaming toward the fan long before it got there in 2008.
FWIW, I feel the same about physics, probabilistic risk assessment and probability in general–my areas of expertise.
@ Sacnction & Menyambal
It was a specific request because that’s basically exactly what she said, though it was more of an off the cuff remark.
As Menyambal mentioned, a Catholic wouldn’t do, because what they believe is nonsense, obviously.
Irony clearly not a strong point, but I work on it.
Basically, she has very specific beliefs and what, to her, constitutes proof. She is biblically very well informed (oxymoron?) and I think would like to ask questions to someone who would understand her specific viewpoint and have some idea of the persepctive she is coming from.
Our discussions are between a believer, and a person who has never countenanced believing. I think it’s just a case of having the discussion who might be a little more empathetic.
@ Carlie
Feel free to email so I can give you the question list… mr_a_long [at] yahoo dot co dot uk
Thanks for being easy on me…these look like dangerous waters for a posting newbie to be dipping his toe in.
David M @411
Regarding oriental confusion between ‘L’ and ‘R’ (sounds) –
I don’t know much about Chinese, but certainly the Japanese language has a sound midway between L and R that leads to confusion when the Japanese speak a language that has those sounds – This can lead to confusion (and occasionally apt mis-translations – my wife always marks the calendar on with the days we are due to fly (holidays, visits home etc) with the ‘fright time’ – although I find her most appropriate mispronunciation is to re-name the ‘accelerator’ of a car the ‘exhilarator’).
Of course confusion works both ways – I am assured that there is a difference between the words spider and cloud (both sound like ‘kumo’), and bridge and chopsticks (both sound like ‘hashi’) but I have never been able to discern the difference, no matter how patiently it is explained to me. Still context (as with most Japanese) is everything, and any differences in pronunciation don’t seem to lead to too much mis-understanding.
Theodore Beale as an example of a Mensa member that suffers from the Dunning-Kruger effect… bigtime.
Also works in IE8, except it’s all justified to the left side, and the very last line starts with a period instead of ending with it. (I didn’t pay attention to these things in the lab.)
I know, because you said so. I can’t even read most of the letters without looking them up in Wikipedia. :-)
Diaphragm breathing pulls the diaphragm… I can’t say “down”, I have to introduce the anatomical direction terms. So, it pulls the diaphragm caudally (toward the tail). The guts get out of the way in all directions, except that on the dorsal side there’s the vertebral column with its musculature, which doesn’t yield much, and, when sleeping on the back, the bed, which hardly yields at all, is also on the dorsal side. So, most of the expansion is ventral, and that means up when lying on the back. When lying on the belly, so that ventral is down, most of the expansion is sideways, with just a little flexion of the vertebral column in the lumbar region. (I just did the experiment.)
The ribcage doesn’t seem to undergo any ventral expansion in breathing, even when I just sit here and exaggerate all ribcage movements. It’s all cranial (toward the head), lateral (sideways), and dorsal (not much, but impossible to avoid due to the shape of ribs).
Wow. I had no idea! But… I’ll simply keep sleeping on my belly :-)
I’ve never been diagnosed with Asperger’s or any other psychological condition. I only learned of the existence of Asperger’s from an article in New Scientist, while I was visiting my last psychologist; it looks like she didn’t know about it either. And then she explicitly refused to diagnose me because she feared I’d hide behind the diagnosis…
She also had me do a Rorschach test, even though I protested that it had been shown it doesn’t show anything other than what you’ve last been thinking about. At least I got to demonstrate this myself by seeing exactly those things that were illustrated in the article I had read in the tramway, and showing her the illustrations in the article! I still remember the sacrum of Daspletosaurus. =8-)
Heh. I once cured my sister by reading to her from Lenin’s collected works. =8-)
This is the one big global problem about hunger.
John Kenneth Galbraith was a good economist and an excellent writer. He’s a little outdated now but I’d certainly trust him for the basics.
dingdong, I remember several conversations here in the Missouri Ozarks where it became clear to me that the other person “had faith” and I absolutely did not. I still really don’t understand what folks mean by “faith” but I do know it is one of those slippery words that has different meaning from person to person, and, for some folks, from minute to minute.
My own dad once said that folks had to believe in something. The way he said it made it sound both compulsory for mental health and a social requirement for fitting in. We never talked much about religion, otherwise, but he decided that I was an atheist before I did.
My mom, God love her, avoids the whole issue.
David M @445
I spent some time seeing a therapist when my marriage was going through a difficult patch (my wife felt it would help both of us and encouraged me to go – it probably saved our marriage), and my therapist suggested Aspergers and refered me to a specialist who diagnosed it.
In fact the diagnosis had little impact on me (except to help understand myself a bit better), but proved to be a great help to my wife – understanding that I wasn’t being deliberately nasty to her, that it really was a case of misunderstanding (or even ‘miss understanding’). It is not something to ‘hide behind’ but I have found that having a concrete understanding of what I have to overcome allows me to focus on the task of overcoming it.
there, happy now?! :-p
David M, you mentioned a paper you had bookmarked on why hemp paper doesn’t work. If you’re home now, I’d be very interested in reading it.
That sounds like a pretty horrible psychologist. Does she refuse to diagnose anything to anyone in case they hide behind it? A diagnosis is just what helps one seat what’s happening and know which directions might work best to learn coping skills.
Of course, in a year or so you wouldn’t be able to be diagnosed with Asperger’s anyway – it’s eliminated in the new DSM-V and clustered back down into austim spectrum disorder.
Bwah! Just for fun I googled Kwok – wanted to know if he had any actual accomplishments out there in the world besides his high school diploma. The first result in the search was this.
Having been pointed to a few interesting cartoon strips from this (and other threads) I have a suggestion for any manga fans out there – Saint young men is an interesting story envisioning Jesus and Buddha as on a sabbatical from heaven, living in a student style flat share (on a student budget as Buddha constantly reminds the more profligate Jesus) in modern day Tokyo. Not the most cutting satire, but I like the humour.
has a sound midway between L and R
For many, perhaps most, Japanese it’s an ordinary Italian R. The bigger issue is that there’s nothing to contrast it with.
You’ve run into the pitch accent system – Japanese does have tones, but only for stressed syllables, and only in very few cases is this actually used to distinguish words.
“Foreign learners of Japanese are often not taught to pronounce the pitch accent. Incorrect pitch accent is a strong characteristic of a ‘foreign accent’ in Japanese.”
X-D
Doesn’t surprise me at all.
Oh yeah, sorry. It’s not a paper, it’s a detailed Pharyngula comment!
Over four screens of what’s going on in your… appreciable intellect! ^_^ ^_^ ^_^
It also sounds like an utterly unremarkable psychologist in my experience… :-þ Hence my occasional outbursts of “psychology can be done as a science, it just usually isn’t”.
Ah, it must be nice to have friends like Kw*k has. Otherwise, your business wouldn’t be on the web for folks to know who you went to school with…and who you are stalking today…
*perking up ears*
Menyambal, where in the Missouri Ozarks are you?
Urgh. Extreme blockquote fail! The quote should be closed between “language” and “is” in the second line (on this screen, so perhaps the end of the first line on yours); what should have been a </blockquote> tag got removed completely, together with both line breaks after it.
ROTFL!
David:
Interesting, thank you. I’ve used hemp in handmade paper, for art work. It’s easier to use than poppy stems, which are much work for little yield.
cicely, I am near Springfield, mostly. I went to high school in Buffalo, college at MSU (when it was SMSU), my folks live in Marshfield (birthplace of Edwin Hubble) and I now live in Nixa (birthplace of the fictional Jason Bourne’s “real” identity).
David M – thanks for the link to the pitch-accent article. It is interesting to see Japanese comedy where a foreign accent is indicated by the incorrect stressing of syllables (I am thinking particularly of the character of Stresemann in the live action version of Nodame Cantible – I am always reminded of the UK comedy “‘Allo ‘Allo” for some reason).
The main problem I find with Chinese loan word (Kanji) is the multiplicity of pronunciations they bring with them – you can often understand the meaning individual kanji with no idea of how they are pronounced (each kanji has at least one ‘Japanese’ reading (Kun yomi) and ‘borrowed Chinese reading’ (On yomi), though often more than one). How they manage to keep the literacy rate so high here is quite amazing.
Carlie @452:
Oh, Christ. Christ Christ Christ. You’re killing me here, you’re frickin’ killing me.
XD XD XD
1. Brute force. A whole culture of “learn, learn, learn”*: normal school, evening school, and a… remarkable suicide rate.
2. I’ve read that many people do have trouble with the rarer kanji and their rarer pronunciations.
3. There aren’t that many kanji in general use. In China, where there’s no escape, it happens that students at the most prestigious universities forget, for instance, how to write “to sneeze”… I’m thinking of chapter 3 of this page, but read the whole thing anyway. :-)
* Of course, the guy who actually used these words most famously is Lenin.
Had to read some the links there back to Survivor: Pharyngula!. Good times. It actually kept me from a few classes. Can’t believe it’s been a year.
Nowadays there’s not much creationist/religionist targets, what with registration and the Survivor purge (most of the contestants of Survivor were eventually banned). When one does show up they generally get attacked by a large, hungry pack of Pharyngulites.
…and now for something completely different: the Boy Scouts of America as perverts.
Celtic_Evolution @407-
Ugh. For the past couple days I’ve been having a bit of back and forth on, of all things, a “Lost” discussion forum, with a poster who made the startlingly original statement that “Science is a religion”. I took my time to write up a few lengthy, well-researched rebuttals to his/her nonsense, but he/she does what they all do- ignore them and pretend no one rebutted their drivel with reasoned arguments, including citations and sources for further reading.
I gave up. What’s that quote about debating with creationists being like wrestling with pigs?
Jesus Haploid Christ. How did it get 3:26 so quickly? See you all tomorrow.
This is true (rare readings are often put as ‘furigana’ (small hiragana above the kanji themselves)). It is particularly difficult for names where readings can be quite whimsical – for example characters for ‘small birds playing’ could be read ‘Kotori asobi’ （小鳥遊） but are actually read ‘Taka nashi’ literally ‘no hawks’ (i.e. small birds can play where there are no hawks).
Also quite true, although it is all relative – to be literate in Japanese you still need approx 2000 kanji, which is far fewer than Chinese languages require, but still a substantial number for my poor memory…
RickR
Yup… covered in shit.
Although, at this point I’ve decided that the potential for collateral wisdom (in which a lurker may observe the debate as a third party and come away learning something valuable) is worth the off-putting stench.
that’s pretty much my reasoning for engaging in these kind of “debates”. the person I’m talking isn’t likely to learn anything, but others might; certainly more than if I’d just let the ramblings go unanswered.
Menyambal, I’m in SW Springfield, almost in Battlefield. We escaped to here from SW OK; I like it here much better, for all its faults.
I almost choked on my drink the first time I saw that in the Bourne movie!
Nice to ‘meet’ another local Pharyngulite. :)
Menyambal – believe it or not, I spent a summer youth church camp once doing church plant surveys around Halfway.
*cue “It’s A Small World”
Reminds me of another Heinlein aphorism: “Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.”
You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.
As for rice, I’m used to seeing it growing in Arkansas
CA is a big rice producer as well, IIRC, to the point where it has had a major impact on state water usage over the last 20 years.
Attn: Josh, OSG
Ragù alla Bolognese
1 pound ground beef
4 tbs butter or oil
1 cup (4oz) minced onion
1/2 cup (2oz) minced carrot
1/2 cup (2oz) minced celery
1 cup (8oz) milk
pinch (~1/16 tsp) nutmeg
1 cup (8oz) dry white wine
1 can (16oz) chopped plum tomatoes, with juice
– Over med-high heat, fry the ground beef in a skillet until it is well-browned. Try to make sure that at least 75% of the water from the beef has evaporated. Remove and set aside.
– In a heavy saucepan, add the butter/oil and fry the onion, celery, carrot over medium heat for 5 min. Add back the ground beef, season with salt and pepper, then add the milk. Bring to a boil, then reduce to a moderate simmer, stirring frequently, and let it bubble away completely. Add the nutmeg and stir.
– Add the wine, and again reduce liquid down.
– Add the tomatoes. Once more, bring to a boil, but this time turn it down to a fairly low simmer, such that a only few bubbles breaking the surface every few seconds. This should take around 3 hours.
– The ragù is ready when the liquid has cooked down to the consistency of tomato paste*, and the fat has separated from the sauce.
– This should make about 10 individual servings of ragù, to be enjoyed with grated parmesan and the pasta of your choice. Also, it freezes very nicely.
*By this, I mean that there should be no extraneous water for the fat to float around in. When the fat starts to go from micelles to forming a continuous layer, that’s a good place to stop. And I would like to emphasize that I do not mean “cook it to dryness”. It becomes too concentrated, and, well, dry.
I try not to worry too much about collateral wisdom. It would be nice if someone following along learns something, but I sometimes think it’s worth it for the intellectual experience itself:
You learn the kind of arguments they use, and what they cite as “evidence”, and figure out how to phrase refutations.
And I have to admit: sometimes, I’m spurred to do more research out of sheer infuriation at their disingenuous mendacity, which is good in and of itself, and also helps to remind me just how much real science is out there. This sometimes feeds back into the infuriation itself, given how many trolls accuse evolutionary biology of being a hoax by people who are just in it for the money (most recently by Nelis over in the year-old Kent Hovind still in jail thread).
(– “Why are evolutionists so angry?”
— “You mean, if someone just said that you were just a greedy selfish liar, you would respond calmly?”)
Bah.
On a complete tangent, I was pondering the insult popularized here by Wowbagger, “clown shoe”. It has an amusing absurdity to it, all on its own, but it occurred to me that there might be an obscure meaning behind the phrase: someone who repeatedly, forcefully, and willfully jams their foot into their own mouth, and never removes it, is doing something obviously absurd, and hence is a clown, and also is using their head and body as a “shoe”. Therefore, that person is a clown shoe.
Piltdown Man? Clown shoe.
Alan Clarke? Clown shoe.
And so on.
Excellent.
I’m on it, MrFire! That’s a damned fine looking bolognese recipe – very similar to one I make. Mine’s a little more decadent though – I use heavy cream (not a whole cup, to be sure!).
This is something that’s always confused me. I know how much biology professors make. It’s nothing compared to what Ken Ham or Ray Comfort rake in. The money the creationists seem to think is in promoting evolution just isn’t there. If I were a PhD biologist just interested in money and nothing else, I’d be knocking on the Discovery Institute’s door.
Immortal Jellyfish
So much easier for Korean, where knowledge of hanja (Chinese Character) is only for advance reader.
I’m on it, MrFire!
second offer…
if you need a place to store recipes other than these threads, I can set up a web-page for this purpose, if someone already isn’t doing that.
email me:
fisheyephotosAThotmailDOTcom
Thanks, Ich. I don’t mind collecting them here, it’s probably more a matter of whether PZ and the commenters get sick of so many recipes. I’ll email you so we can exchange contact info.
kk
btw, thanks to Carlie for the link to the rationalwiki for the kwokster.
just went to the the Thumb to put the screws to him with it, since he had JUST posted another one of his axe-grinds to PZ.
MrFire – just realized my comment looked like stealing your culinary thunder. See what happens when you’re an Official SpokesGay? It’s all about me, me, me.
Seriously, I’m going to try your recipe. I especially like that you included technical notes on consistency, moisture content, etc. That’s always helpful to people who can follow a recipe, but don’t necessarily have a firm grip on kitchen science and why it matters.
Link please? I’m dying.
Ugh. Just found the Kw*k post at the Thumb. Had to say something. Shouldn’t have bothered. Oh, how I hate him, and those assholes over at the Intersuction.
And why, why, must Kw*k be a Star Trek geek? Can’t I have one silly, indulgent pleasure left untainted?
After reading so much about Kwok, I have now maded “mendacious intellectual pornography” synonymous with him. Sould I ever encounter him, it will be the name I will give him.
Ohh, do tell its name. The evolution of flowers intrigues me because it’s not well recorded in the fossil records, for obvious reasons.
Surely, that’s my illness speaking.
leather
ok, so apparently P.R.A.Y.E.R (Pharyngula Randomly Answering Your Endless Requests) works!
Y’all might remember that I’m a cat-person who would LOVE to have cats (at least to tdecimate my other furry roommates), but neither the landlord nor the boyfriend are forthcoming…
…well, about half an hour ago, I have found a cat on my doorstep. Please keep in mind that I live on the 4th floor of a building with a locked front door, and NO ONE in this building is allowed to have pets!
Now, the cat is tagged, so I guess I’ll have to figure out who to return it to, but for tonight, I have a kitteh :-)
Had to say something. Shouldn’t have bothered.
it is fun to poke the monkey and watch him fling poo though.
i think he responded to your post no less than 3 times.
Jadehawk can has kitteh.
I has many already.
As I have mentioned here before, my uber-boss, the holy Professor of Emergency at my institution, a boring suit-and-tie guy with no personality and no detectable humour, is, so sources tell me, the super Star Trek geek, we’re talking model starships on the walls and conventions….
It’s very disturbing.
Yay! Jadehawk has a transient kitteh!
Does the tag read “Erwin Schrödinger”, by some strange chance?
(Copenhagen Interpretation Fantasy Camp !!)
Does the tag read “Erwin Schrödinger”, by some strange chance?
…and if you look to see, does the cat randomly die or live?
And does the cat have a pulse?
Jadehawk:
Aaaw, enjoy your kitten experience. :) When we first moved to our little ‘town’, we had plenty of cats(6, all rescues). I don’t let them free roam, they have a large, completely enclosed kennel space, which they can access freely via a window. Setting it up was one of the first things we did upon moving.
Hadn’t even been in the house a full week, when I heard howling outside. This was after dark, in the midst of severe thunderstorm, so I had closed the window access to the kennel. I opened the window, and sure enough, there’s a cat in there, howling its head off. It wouldn’t climb the cat stand to come in. I closed the window and counted cats. None were missing. I went outside and found an adult male cat (black). I picked him up and brought him in. He was starving, he weighed just under 4 pounds, and was of a fairly large build.
I fed him, and he was growling and purring as he wolfed the food down. Someone decided we were going to be an animal shelter. Never found out who did it, but Grendel has been a part of the family for 6 years now.
Owlmirror wrote:
All I know is that it comes courtesy of Kevin Smith; Banky uses it to describe Jay to Silent Bob in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. Beyond that I’ve got no idea – I just like the sound of it.
Have seamlessly integrated that one into my everyday vocabulary already.It gets the “cannot be taken seriously under any circumstances” point across very nicely somehow…:-)
Oh, I love all you kitteh people. I have the biggest soft spot in my heart for cats. If I were religious, Jadehawk, I’d say “bless you” for taking care of that poor stray kitteh.
I have two cats, one who came to me as a stray kitten, and another I took from my sister when her newborn baby proved to be allergic. Mink, my 10-year-old, came trotting out of the woods and rubbed up against my boss when he was having a roadside picnic. Apparently, some asshole had dumped her off as a kitten in the woods. She had already had a litter (at less than a year old) when I got her and spayed her.
My boss brought her in to work, and she was the friendliest, most loving cat you could imagine. I had no intention of taking on a pet, but she was irresistible. Mink is the most awesome kitteh – she curls up in the crook of my arm when I nap, and when I go to sleep, and purrs the night away.
Oh, and also, Mink went missing for three weeks when I lived in Virginia. I cried buckets over that, convinced she was dead. My landlord brought her up to my apartment, starved (you could literally see her skeleton), one day. She must have gotten trapped someplace where she couldn’t eat. Happily, she’s a well-fed, very loved, and quite portly kitteh today.
PZ’s talk was good today. Though it’s a shame it’s all over now, I’m going to be in some post-GAC funk until TAM in November.