NOFX are excellent! If you haven’t heard their album Wolves In Wolves’ Clothing, PZ, I’d highly recommend it. The tunes You Will Lose Faith and Leaving Jesusland are particularly on target.
My personal favorite is You’re Wrong from Never Trust a Hippy. It’s the best damn evil liberal atheist song I’ve ever heard. First time I heard it on the radio, I was in my car, and I liked it so much I stopped at the nearest music store and bought 2 of their cds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lw4gtT0t2s
Haleysays
*channeling my mother for some reason* Aren’t you supposed to be sleeping off that cold?
As much as I like the lyrics, I’m not a huge fan of the music.
Loimsays
Some more great songs by NOFX from their new album that takes a great slice at religion!
“Best God In Show” and “Blasphemy (The Victimless Crime)”
Also, for anyone who enjoyed this punk rock, I would suggest the band “Bad Religion”, it has very deep, well structured and intellectual lyrics (If you think I’m just saying that because I am a fan, you should really just give them a listen first).
Loimsays
I forgot another great NOFX song with my post: “Idiots Are Taking Over” – I think that pretty much sums up alot.
barcsbsays
Just awful. Stick to cephalopods PZ or Atheists will be accused (quite rightly in this case) of having no artistic merit.
jack.rawlinsonsays
Well, that kick-started my Sunday rather well. Drink, blasphemy and punk rock. Just the thing for the Lord’s day!
Ah, good old Pharyngula. Sometimes it’s cephalopods, sometimes it’s science, sometimes it’s relidiot-baiting and sometimes it’s music. How can AIG hope to compete?
jack.rawlinsonsays
barcsb? Get a bath and a haircut, you old hippie. ;-)
Knockgoatssays
That brought my son out of his room to investigate the noise :-p
Nice tune. But rude? Really?
'Tis Himself, OMsays
Piquantly amusing albeit perhaps a touch overdone.
Kel, OMsays
Saw them play this live 3 years ago. Fun band.
Moggiesays
Hot nuns? Really?
B166ERsays
YAY! Finally something I sent to “Reverend” “Meyers” was plugged. I thought this would be apt for Pharyngula. I love punk rock, but somehow I didn’t think the lyrics of Choking Victim would get through the sonic bombardment of the eardrums they were so well known for. Bad Religion would be another great punk rock band for Pharyngula.
Especially their song ‘Faith Alone’
No Gods, No Masters
Cameron
vanharrissays
barcsb @ 8, I saw from the photo that this was gonna be noise, so i spared myself the discomfort of listening to it. I mean, you can just tell, when you see people who’ve been infected by a mindless social contagion, that there’s gonna be some feckin’ crap. In this case, it’s not religion.
Jeffrey Jamessays
I personally think that American Jesus is Bad Religion’s definitive song, but it is hard to choose either way.
Jeffrey Jamessays
I would not think Epitaph Records would be anal about copyright on Youtube, but it turns out that I can’t find the studio recording of the song.
NewEnglandBobsays
Noise
B166ERsays
To all who think this is just noise: you are entitled to your opinions, but remember that the music you listen to is probably judged just the same by others.
@vanharris#16
Way to not judge a book by it’s cover! At least you’re not like one of those religious people who wont even give something a chance or look at something because it looks “evil” or “bad”!
Punk rock is not for everyone, but neither is classical, funk, blues, jazz, hip hop, gypsy, grind core, bluegrass, or metal, all of which I do like as well. For those of you who DO like the glorious energy that is punk rock, another great band is Propagandhi (not the stupid rapper jackass in Religulous). They have changed a lot in the time they’ve been playing (since about 1986), but I think they kick ass.
If punk rock isn’t your thing, but you like rock, check out Floater at floater.com. They are similar to bands like Tool, but I personally think a lot better. All bands listed above have very anti-religious themes so I think that at least somebody here will like them.
No Gods, No Masters
Cameron
daveausays
That’ll wake you up on a sunday morning.
Speaking as a musician, I really dig that they can get in, say what they want to say, and get out in under 2:30. I’m sure all the radio stations appreciate that, too. What? They don’t get airplay…?
daveausays
A song about Minnesota winters, drinking, and mocking religion
These are a few of my favorite things.
dude070012says
you now have or need a theme
Sk8mansays
Hi everyone, I read this blog most everyday. I’ve never signed up because I didn’t have anything to say that wasn’t already said.
If anyone is looking for great Speed Metal Punk Rock Political Anti-Religious goodness, I suggest you check out Propagandhi.
Anyway, great blog PZ, lot’s of laughs and lot’s of informative posts, keep up the great work :)
Biddysays
@Vanharris #16 I’m sure most of the people burning those Dixie Chicks CDs spared themselves “the discomfort of listening to it”. That being said, NoFX is not for everyone. Hell, they don’t even want to be! But i love ‘em. THANKS PZ!
@Loim #6 I agree “Best God in show” is NoFX’s most catchy religious song. In contribution to the discussion about Bad Religion songs, I think “Materialist” sums it all up nicely!
Waltonsays
It has to be said that one of the few positive things about religion is its ability to produce great music. Much of the music I like has a religious theme or is religiously-inspired: including great classical works such as Mozart’s Requiem or the Bach-Gounod Ave Maria, national anthems, traditional Anglican hymns, and classic American gospel music. This is part of the reason why I remained a nominal Christian for so long, despite my doubts. And despite now being an outspoken atheist, I still love religious music. It may not be rational, but I can’t help my aesthetic preferences.
daveausays
Walton-
Religion doesn’t produce great music. There may be great music with religious themes, but that is primarily because of religious patronage for the arts. In order to make a living, artists and musicians have to go where the money is. And at that time it meant the church or the nobility. Now it means the church or corporations. Imagine what heights Bach might have attained if he wasn’t bound by the whims of his superstitious bosses.
Antiochus Epiphanessays
This is what happens when a punk band actually stays together for ~30 years or so. Everyone actually learns to play their instruments.
Zenosays
What? No altar boys?
Sven DiMilosays
Everyone actually learns to play their instruments.
all 3 chords
Sven DiMilosays
I really dig that they can get in, say what they want to say, and get out in under 2:30.
I agree that its short duration is the best thing about this song.
But, y’know, it’s not “noise”. They really do know how to play those 3 chords in a crisp and disciplined fashion. This kind of popped-up Green-day shit is a far cry from the DIY roots of punk.
donbuttonsays
Alright PZ! Get your Punk on! I think you need to follow up every Friday Cephalopod with a Sunday Morning Punk Anthem. Gets the blood flowing.
@barcsb #8 and VanHarris #16: We atheists get called judgmental enough already, I don’t think we need to be so closed minded amongst ourselves. NOFX and Bad Religion are noisy, but it’s good, meaningful, smart noise. There is not a lot of openly irreligious music out there, but punk is the easiest place to find it. You should celebrate that for solidarity instead of dis it.
Believers (and some non-believers) think PZ is overly loud and rude about his opinions. I think he’s probably the most “punk” of all the major atheist voices right now and this music could be the perfect soundtrack for Pharyngula.
daveausays
Sven@31
I was really thinking of how top 40 music in the 50s, 60s & 70s always came in under 3 minutes. Radio stations could fit 20+ songs per hour and still have time for promos and commercials. Serious exceptions began in the 70s; Stairway to Heaven, Bohemian Rhapsody, and Dream On were way longer, even when edited for commercial radio. Fortunately, album oriented rock FM stations allowed access to more complex and creative music. Punk/DIY does have its merits, however, regardless of whether one has a personal affinity for it.
chuckgoeckesays
My wife and I went to last fall’s atheist Halloween party as a priest and a choir boy. I was the priest, and had my hand up the “boy’s” smock half the night, for realism of course. It was fun.
Knockgoatssays
This is what happens when a punk band actually stays together for ~30 years or so. Everyone actually learns to play their instruments. -Antiochus Epiphanes
Disgraceful! No respect for tradition at all.
Free Lunchsays
Believers (and some non-believers) think PZ is overly loud and rude about his opinions.
Yet when you listen to him speak, you’d be hard pressed to find a minister or priest who is as soft-spoken.
Sven DiMilosays
top 40 music in the 50s, 60s & 70s always came in under 3 minutes
Yes. I suspect at least two things were going on: 1) a place of priority for the “song”–if what is being sold is primarily the Tin-pan Alley lyrics and melody, and if the actual performance of the song is secondary, then 2 or 3 minutes is plenty. When performance–instrumental solos, in particular–becomes more important, then one needs more time. 2) Technology–the 78- and later 45-rpm single record was very limited. I remember stuff like “American Pie” and the like had to be cut in half and issued on 2 sides of a 45. The LP and album-oriented radio simply made a lot more possible (epic suites, drum solos, etc.)
vanharrissays
donbutton, being closed-minded has got nothing to do with it.
If art affects us by stimulating emotions, & if music is art, then the emotional response i get to pop/rock is not what i want from art. I really find the i get annoyed & develop aggressive feelings, regardless of the circumstances. Maybe my emotional responses are all fucked up? But i prefer to say that popular culture is fucked up.
I see the situation with pop/rock as being similar to that with religion because both involve social contagion, except that pop/rock intrudes on me in my personal life, whereas i can mostly avoid religion.
The reason i get critical in public about pop/rock is because it’s inflicted on me, without anyone having the courtesy of asking if i want to hear it, & i’ve not been socialized into believing that it’s music. So i get irritated by it.
alexrkr7says
Why are people harping on noise? Half of Pink Floyd’s music was noise. Frank Zappa was fucking noise. And fucking brilliant.
Noise is good. And speaking as a musician/music aficionado/music theorist this is not noise. It’s actually pretty polished. But hey what do I know, it’s not like music has anything to do with getting a visceral and emotional response from an audience they relates to it or anything like that. No, no not at all, it can be objectively measured just like my height or the piles of shit being spewed from all our mouthes on the subject.
Thanks for the post PZ!
donbuttonsays
vanharris: “i’ve not been socialized into believing that it’s music”
This makes me curious as to what you do believe music.. what’s YOUR definition.
Your statement is judgmental and derisive of anyone who chooses to enjoy pop/rock as music — you clearly think we are mindless fools. You refer to it as a “social contagion” — an overt implication that listeners have been duped or brainwashed into liking something you’ve deemed unworthy or harmful.
Our common ground is probably that we agree that religion is a harmful contagion, but I think your dividing of art into good art and bad art is much like a religionist saying their religion is right, but all the other ones are phony.
vanharrissays
alexrkr7
Noise is good.
No.
Oxford Canadian Dictionary: noise n. 1 a sound, esp. a loud or unpleasant or undesired one.
Jumpin’ Jeezus! This is like arguing with the feckin’ religious.
chuckgoeckesays
Sven, long drum solo’s brought back a fond Morris, Mn memory. I saw Iron Butterfly at a road house in Herman, Minnesota, about 20 miles northwest of Morris, in the late 70’s. They weren’t the same band as in their heyday in the 60’s, but they still had the original drummer. In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida was superb, especially from 2 rows back, about 12 feet away. I even had a an upright, stalwart west central Minnesota citizen in the third row behind me, put a knife to my throat for standing up too much. Great times!
curious as to what you do believe music.. what’s YOUR definition.
Music is sound created by people (or maybe by other animals) that causes an enjoyable emotional response. For me, that’s mostly classical, & some folk & jazz.
Your statement is judgmental and derisive of anyone who chooses to enjoy pop/rock as music — you clearly think we are mindless fools. You refer to it as a “social contagion” — an overt implication that listeners have been duped or brainwashed into liking something you’ve deemed unworthy or harmful.
Around about the time that rock music took off, a book was published, “Introducing Music”, by the musicologist Otto Karolyi. I quote from it, “Naturally no composer is content to write in perfectly regular note-groups with a relentless beat; as in poetry, half the game consists in varying the position of the stress.”
I’ve often wondered what Karolyi thought when he was proven wrong. His mistake was in overlooking the degree to which social contagion can influence people.
As i wrote above (#38), “The reason i get critical in public about pop/rock is because it’s inflicted on me, without anyone having the courtesy of asking if i want to hear it…” I’m venting my spleen.
aeroslinsays
Love NOFX!
Here’s a good anthem for humanism from Sick of It All:
Ahh, yes, the limitations of the medium. You’re right about that. Suite: Judy Blue eyes was horrifically foreshortened on the 45. And I can think of quite a few AOR artists who had to go through all kinds of manipulations for continuity when flipping the LP over. (Jethro Tull, ELP, Allman Bros). And just forget orchestral music written before there was recording; 30 minute movements always had to be interrupted with a fade out / fade up. One of the few reasons why digital media can be an improvement.
Oh, yeah, Zappa used noise often to shake up ones conception of what music is. But that’s one of the ways in which we can distinguish art from pop.
B166ERsays
@vanharris#44
WOW… I don’t know what to say or where to begin. You talk about rock being a “social contagion”, yet you list jazz as a music genre you like, which was treated at its inception as, you guessed it, a social contagion. Just because something creates a positive emotional response in you, does not mean it does in others, or vice versa. To compare a type of music you don’t like to a “social contagion” and to refer to those you disagree with as no different then crazy religious people makes YOU sound like the closed minded faith head. As to you having a problem with being inflicted by it without your consent, I have to ask you: have you ever listened to music outside without headphones? Or told someone something they didn’t want to hear? If you have ever verbally challenged any person’s opinions, crazy delusions or otherwise, they probably thought the same about you. I don’t mean to denigrate your musical preferences, I mean to point out the arrogant manner in which you assert your subjective opinion as an objective fact about others choices.
No Gods, No Masters
Cameron
vanharrissays
B166ER
I have to ask you: have you ever listened to music outside without headphones?
No. I consider that ignorant & inconsiderate behaviour.
Your analogy, “… Or told someone something they didn’t want to hear? If you have ever verbally challenged any person’s opinions, crazy delusions or otherwise…”, isn’t pertinent. It could only be so if i started picking on people. In a discussion or argument, it’s fair to disagree.
Loimsays
I would suggest at the very least that anyone who doesn’t enjoy listening to the music (I can understand it be under or over stimulating, as in: a) Wow, they just play the same chords throughout the song behind the same rhythm of notes! or b) Its loud and I can’t understand what anyone is saying or doing.) to go and read the lyrics for some of the songs I had suggested (post #6+7), Biddy (#25) and others. You may not like the sound, but once you read the lyrics you will all agree that these are very smart men behind the noise.
One caveat: with NOFX I wouldn’t go beyond any album after 2003, that is when it starts to get noise-yer and ruder, seeing at it is their earlier stuff.
Legionsays
vanHarris:
No. I consider that [music played outside loud enough for others to hear] ignorant & inconsiderate behaviour.
One of the most beautiful public performances we’ve ever heard was from a South American woman. We were in a public space and the woman was singing something in her native language. We had no idea what she was saying, but it was one of those rare transcendent experiences that we’ll never forget.
Some of the best music we’ve ever heard has been “found” music. That is, music that we stumble across in public spaces.
Everything from outdoor concerts and street music to mallzak and the stuff they play on the phone when you’ve been on hold for 20 minutes — all of it has the potential for discovery of something wonderful.
Red Johnsays
This kind of popped-up Green-day shit is a far cry from the DIY roots of punk.
NOFX were around years before Green Day started playing and got popular. It seems more like the popped-up Green Day shit ripped off NOFX’s sound and watered it down for the masses. There are few bands that are more punk that NOFX. The lead singer, Fat Mike, has his own label, Fat Wreck Chords, which is nothing if not DIY.
I strongly support all of the recommendations for Bad Religion in the previous comments. I’ll also through in a recommendation for Pennywise since I didn’t see anyone mention them. Their song “My God” seems appropriate here:
come on pz, i know a lot of otherwise clever people have a blind spot for music appreciation, but there have to be some real talents out there who could express the avowed stances of this blog without hurting my ears.
and no, i don’t care if green day stole their crap and made it their own.
nor do i care how many people think “rock” is a real art. contributor “vanharris” quotes karolyi, whom he admits got it all wrong, he should have quoted arte shaw, who got it exactly right when he stated: “No matter how carefully and assiduously and how deeply you bury shit, the American public will find it and buy it in large quantity, It’s true, absolutely true.”
B166ERsays
@random google name #53
Dude, I may disagree with vanharris on this subject, but he has NEVER been a troll here. He seems to always speak his mind, even unpopular opinions like this one on this thread, and doesn’t back down unless given sufficient evidence. On music, it’s all subjective. So if you have a problem with what he’s saying, bring your points to the table. But please don’t pull the troll card out unless absolutely necessary, and vanharris has never deserved that most odious of monikers.
@mulder #54
Where I agree that there is a lot of rock that is total corporate crap, there is a lot of art within the genre. Just like everything else, there’s always a lot of shit hiding the corn kernels of gold (sorry about that utterly tasteless and vulgar phrase). But to say that it’s all horrible just because you don’t like the sound of it would be like me saying you are illiterate because I don’t like your choice of words.
No Gods, No Masters
Cameron
alexrkr7says
@vanharris
Read your own definition moron. We get it, you’re an old fogey. Only you know what true music really is being a musician for 15 years. Oh wait… no… that’s me. Yes, argument from authority, and a proper one.
llewellysays
Loim | February 21, 2010 5:28 AM:
I forgot another great NOFX song with my post: “Idiots Are Taking Over” – I think that pretty much sums up alot.
It’s a fun song, but I think PZ would disagree with some aspects of its message. (This could be projection on my part; I disagree with some aspects of that song as well.)
nejishikisays
Music is sound created by people (or maybe by other animals) that causes an enjoyable emotional response. For me, that’s mostly classical, & some folk & jazz.
Jazz is just a bunch of NOISE! I only listen to wind chimes and music boxes, and they have to be at least 40 feet away!
Loimsays
@#57 llewelly
Yeah, after reading that post, I can see how the song can be taken in that direction. I never actually thought of it in that way. Of course we are all the same, just with different ideas, some more truthful and the others more like fairy tales. Its the ideas that need weeding, not the individual with the ideas.
The song could be taken as sort of a look at the Industrial Revolutions impact on environment and thus ourselves.
I still, however, agree that it is a fun song if not for the line “Darwin is rolling over in his coffin”.
Red Johnsays
“No matter how carefully and assiduously and how deeply you bury shit, the American public will find it and buy it in large quantity, It’s true, absolutely true.”
Please show me the legions of Americans that are out buying NOFX, Bad Religion, etc. in “large quantities.”
muldersays
i recant, it’s not all crap…aside from a very few though, carlos santana for example, the “art form” is, and has been, nearly flat-lining for at least three decades.
blame the death of the 45rpm, lots of up and coming types can write one or two tunes that don’t suck, and if they couldn’t perform them very well, at least they could bring in some of the studio boys to “help”.
look at the recent grammies…mostly given to hot, early 20’s tarts. who’s trying to kid who? don’t call them music awards, call them what they are, crap that thirteen year old morons are clamoring over each other to buy awards. (btw, that’s not opinion, it’s fact, the “music industry” gears to exactly 13 years olds).
blame also the demand for “new”, a really good song will cross genres and lend itself to dozens of arrangements. i’d far rather hear yet another version of gershwin than whatever nonsense brittney spears wrote last week while she was semi-lucid.
sad fact is that rock started dying almost as soon as it was born, all the newcomers striving to new heights of either grungy garbage or insipid, pretentious drivel.
still, one supposes it is a good idea to appeal to 13 year olds after all in this blog. likely an age at which many disciples of atheism toss out their potential religious indoctrination, so perhaps i was wrong to criticize at all; and it’s not like we weren’t more or less warned that some gawd awful crap was on offer.
muldersays
sorry red, but just because some dreadful bands get lucky, and others don’t, doesn’t mean one is better than the next.
perhaps if NOFX dressed like hawt, early 20’s girls?!
Red Johnsays
@mulder
I’m not saying that “not popular” == good, and I definitely don’t think that NOFX should want or try to become popular (and I think they would agree). That’s not what music is about. They should write the music they want to write, not the music that will appeal to the most people. I was just trying to point out that your accurate quote about Americans buying shit in large quantities doesn’t apply to NOFX, because that’s not the case with them. I’m not saying you have to like them, but to dismiss them as shit because “all rock music sucks” is pretty ignorant. There are great artists in every genre of music, they just aren’t the ones targeting 13 year olds with their “music.”
muldersays
actually, i never said “all rock music sucks”, i even have a few rocks tunes in my collection, not many, granted, but some.
i do regard it as near to damnit as swearing, i admit, but i’ve said i was wrong to criticize; anything for the cause and all.
may i sneakily point out though, that studies have shown hard rock and heavy metal as home to conservative / republican adherents significantly more than it holds attraction for the left leaning; but again, though the blog may be the offering of a leftist, one gathers that’s not the primary focus.
mind, this further validates your “non commercial” theory, if this band were out to make big $, they should be offering as much “born again” bullcrap as they can stick into the discernible bits.
again, i said nothing of the sort, only that it’s likely a surer way for a heavy metal / hard rock band to generate $, in fact it would probably be a good idea to stick in as much jingoistic jetsom as can conveniently be squeezed in as well.
clearly not a 1:1 formula in either case (as bart simpson points out, all the best bands are affiliated with satan), but it can’t hurt one’s chances of selling a few extra units.
NOFX are excellent! If you haven’t heard their album Wolves In Wolves’ Clothing, PZ, I’d highly recommend it. The tunes You Will Lose Faith and Leaving Jesusland are particularly on target.
NOFX’s You Will Lose Faith with onscreen lyrics:
There’s also an acoustic version on YouTube.
Too Drunk To Fuck
My personal favorite is You’re Wrong from Never Trust a Hippy. It’s the best damn evil liberal atheist song I’ve ever heard. First time I heard it on the radio, I was in my car, and I liked it so much I stopped at the nearest music store and bought 2 of their cds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lw4gtT0t2s
*channeling my mother for some reason* Aren’t you supposed to be sleeping off that cold?
As much as I like the lyrics, I’m not a huge fan of the music.
Some more great songs by NOFX from their new album that takes a great slice at religion!
“Best God In Show” and “Blasphemy (The Victimless Crime)”
Also, for anyone who enjoyed this punk rock, I would suggest the band “Bad Religion”, it has very deep, well structured and intellectual lyrics (If you think I’m just saying that because I am a fan, you should really just give them a listen first).
I forgot another great NOFX song with my post: “Idiots Are Taking Over” – I think that pretty much sums up alot.
Just awful. Stick to cephalopods PZ or Atheists will be accused (quite rightly in this case) of having no artistic merit.
Well, that kick-started my Sunday rather well. Drink, blasphemy and punk rock. Just the thing for the Lord’s day!
Ah, good old Pharyngula. Sometimes it’s cephalopods, sometimes it’s science, sometimes it’s relidiot-baiting and sometimes it’s music. How can AIG hope to compete?
barcsb? Get a bath and a haircut, you old hippie. ;-)
That brought my son out of his room to investigate the noise :-p
Nice tune. But rude? Really?
Piquantly amusing albeit perhaps a touch overdone.
Saw them play this live 3 years ago. Fun band.
Hot nuns? Really?
YAY! Finally something I sent to “Reverend” “Meyers” was plugged. I thought this would be apt for Pharyngula. I love punk rock, but somehow I didn’t think the lyrics of Choking Victim would get through the sonic bombardment of the eardrums they were so well known for. Bad Religion would be another great punk rock band for Pharyngula.
Especially their song ‘Faith Alone’
No Gods, No Masters
Cameron
barcsb @ 8, I saw from the photo that this was gonna be noise, so i spared myself the discomfort of listening to it. I mean, you can just tell, when you see people who’ve been infected by a mindless social contagion, that there’s gonna be some feckin’ crap. In this case, it’s not religion.
I personally think that American Jesus is Bad Religion’s definitive song, but it is hard to choose either way.
I would not think Epitaph Records would be anal about copyright on Youtube, but it turns out that I can’t find the studio recording of the song.
Noise
To all who think this is just noise: you are entitled to your opinions, but remember that the music you listen to is probably judged just the same by others.
@vanharris#16
Way to not judge a book by it’s cover! At least you’re not like one of those religious people who wont even give something a chance or look at something because it looks “evil” or “bad”!
Punk rock is not for everyone, but neither is classical, funk, blues, jazz, hip hop, gypsy, grind core, bluegrass, or metal, all of which I do like as well. For those of you who DO like the glorious energy that is punk rock, another great band is Propagandhi (not the stupid rapper jackass in Religulous). They have changed a lot in the time they’ve been playing (since about 1986), but I think they kick ass.
If punk rock isn’t your thing, but you like rock, check out Floater at floater.com. They are similar to bands like Tool, but I personally think a lot better. All bands listed above have very anti-religious themes so I think that at least somebody here will like them.
No Gods, No Masters
Cameron
That’ll wake you up on a sunday morning.
Speaking as a musician, I really dig that they can get in, say what they want to say, and get out in under 2:30. I’m sure all the radio stations appreciate that, too. What? They don’t get airplay…?
These are a few of my favorite things.
you now have or need a theme
Hi everyone, I read this blog most everyday. I’ve never signed up because I didn’t have anything to say that wasn’t already said.
If anyone is looking for great Speed Metal Punk Rock Political Anti-Religious goodness, I suggest you check out Propagandhi.
Anyway, great blog PZ, lot’s of laughs and lot’s of informative posts, keep up the great work :)
@Vanharris #16 I’m sure most of the people burning those Dixie Chicks CDs spared themselves “the discomfort of listening to it”. That being said, NoFX is not for everyone. Hell, they don’t even want to be! But i love ‘em. THANKS PZ!
@Loim #6 I agree “Best God in show” is NoFX’s most catchy religious song. In contribution to the discussion about Bad Religion songs, I think “Materialist” sums it all up nicely!
It has to be said that one of the few positive things about religion is its ability to produce great music. Much of the music I like has a religious theme or is religiously-inspired: including great classical works such as Mozart’s Requiem or the Bach-Gounod Ave Maria, national anthems, traditional Anglican hymns, and classic American gospel music. This is part of the reason why I remained a nominal Christian for so long, despite my doubts. And despite now being an outspoken atheist, I still love religious music. It may not be rational, but I can’t help my aesthetic preferences.
Walton-
Religion doesn’t produce great music. There may be great music with religious themes, but that is primarily because of religious patronage for the arts. In order to make a living, artists and musicians have to go where the money is. And at that time it meant the church or the nobility. Now it means the church or corporations. Imagine what heights Bach might have attained if he wasn’t bound by the whims of his superstitious bosses.
This is what happens when a punk band actually stays together for ~30 years or so. Everyone actually learns to play their instruments.
What? No altar boys?
all 3 chords
I agree that its short duration is the best thing about this song.
But, y’know, it’s not “noise”. They really do know how to play those 3 chords in a crisp and disciplined fashion. This kind of popped-up Green-day shit is a far cry from the DIY roots of punk.
Alright PZ! Get your Punk on! I think you need to follow up every Friday Cephalopod with a Sunday Morning Punk Anthem. Gets the blood flowing.
@barcsb #8 and VanHarris #16: We atheists get called judgmental enough already, I don’t think we need to be so closed minded amongst ourselves. NOFX and Bad Religion are noisy, but it’s good, meaningful, smart noise. There is not a lot of openly irreligious music out there, but punk is the easiest place to find it. You should celebrate that for solidarity instead of dis it.
Believers (and some non-believers) think PZ is overly loud and rude about his opinions. I think he’s probably the most “punk” of all the major atheist voices right now and this music could be the perfect soundtrack for Pharyngula.
Sven@31
I was really thinking of how top 40 music in the 50s, 60s & 70s always came in under 3 minutes. Radio stations could fit 20+ songs per hour and still have time for promos and commercials. Serious exceptions began in the 70s; Stairway to Heaven, Bohemian Rhapsody, and Dream On were way longer, even when edited for commercial radio. Fortunately, album oriented rock FM stations allowed access to more complex and creative music. Punk/DIY does have its merits, however, regardless of whether one has a personal affinity for it.
My wife and I went to last fall’s atheist Halloween party as a priest and a choir boy. I was the priest, and had my hand up the “boy’s” smock half the night, for realism of course. It was fun.
This is what happens when a punk band actually stays together for ~30 years or so. Everyone actually learns to play their instruments. -Antiochus Epiphanes
Disgraceful! No respect for tradition at all.
Believers (and some non-believers) think PZ is overly loud and rude about his opinions.
Yet when you listen to him speak, you’d be hard pressed to find a minister or priest who is as soft-spoken.
Yes. I suspect at least two things were going on: 1) a place of priority for the “song”–if what is being sold is primarily the Tin-pan Alley lyrics and melody, and if the actual performance of the song is secondary, then 2 or 3 minutes is plenty. When performance–instrumental solos, in particular–becomes more important, then one needs more time. 2) Technology–the 78- and later 45-rpm single record was very limited. I remember stuff like “American Pie” and the like had to be cut in half and issued on 2 sides of a 45. The LP and album-oriented radio simply made a lot more possible (epic suites, drum solos, etc.)
donbutton, being closed-minded has got nothing to do with it.
If art affects us by stimulating emotions, & if music is art, then the emotional response i get to pop/rock is not what i want from art. I really find the i get annoyed & develop aggressive feelings, regardless of the circumstances. Maybe my emotional responses are all fucked up? But i prefer to say that popular culture is fucked up.
I see the situation with pop/rock as being similar to that with religion because both involve social contagion, except that pop/rock intrudes on me in my personal life, whereas i can mostly avoid religion.
The reason i get critical in public about pop/rock is because it’s inflicted on me, without anyone having the courtesy of asking if i want to hear it, & i’ve not been socialized into believing that it’s music. So i get irritated by it.
Why are people harping on noise? Half of Pink Floyd’s music was noise. Frank Zappa was fucking noise. And fucking brilliant.
Noise is good. And speaking as a musician/music aficionado/music theorist this is not noise. It’s actually pretty polished. But hey what do I know, it’s not like music has anything to do with getting a visceral and emotional response from an audience they relates to it or anything like that. No, no not at all, it can be objectively measured just like my height or the piles of shit being spewed from all our mouthes on the subject.
Thanks for the post PZ!
vanharris: “i’ve not been socialized into believing that it’s music”
This makes me curious as to what you do believe music.. what’s YOUR definition.
Your statement is judgmental and derisive of anyone who chooses to enjoy pop/rock as music — you clearly think we are mindless fools. You refer to it as a “social contagion” — an overt implication that listeners have been duped or brainwashed into liking something you’ve deemed unworthy or harmful.
Our common ground is probably that we agree that religion is a harmful contagion, but I think your dividing of art into good art and bad art is much like a religionist saying their religion is right, but all the other ones are phony.
alexrkr7
No.
Oxford Canadian Dictionary: noise n. 1 a sound, esp. a loud or unpleasant or undesired one.
Jumpin’ Jeezus! This is like arguing with the feckin’ religious.
Sven, long drum solo’s brought back a fond Morris, Mn memory. I saw Iron Butterfly at a road house in Herman, Minnesota, about 20 miles northwest of Morris, in the late 70’s. They weren’t the same band as in their heyday in the 60’s, but they still had the original drummer. In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida was superb, especially from 2 rows back, about 12 feet away. I even had a an upright, stalwart west central Minnesota citizen in the third row behind me, put a knife to my throat for standing up too much. Great times!
Almost forgot the link: http://popup.lala.com/popup/360569470938910590
donbutton
Music is sound created by people (or maybe by other animals) that causes an enjoyable emotional response. For me, that’s mostly classical, & some folk & jazz.
Around about the time that rock music took off, a book was published, “Introducing Music”, by the musicologist Otto Karolyi. I quote from it, “Naturally no composer is content to write in perfectly regular note-groups with a relentless beat; as in poetry, half the game consists in varying the position of the stress.”
I’ve often wondered what Karolyi thought when he was proven wrong. His mistake was in overlooking the degree to which social contagion can influence people.
As i wrote above (#38), “The reason i get critical in public about pop/rock is because it’s inflicted on me, without anyone having the courtesy of asking if i want to hear it…” I’m venting my spleen.
Love NOFX!
Here’s a good anthem for humanism from Sick of It All:
My favorite NOFX song: The Idiot Son of an Asshole.
Sven@37-
Ahh, yes, the limitations of the medium. You’re right about that. Suite: Judy Blue eyes was horrifically foreshortened on the 45. And I can think of quite a few AOR artists who had to go through all kinds of manipulations for continuity when flipping the LP over. (Jethro Tull, ELP, Allman Bros). And just forget orchestral music written before there was recording; 30 minute movements always had to be interrupted with a fade out / fade up. One of the few reasons why digital media can be an improvement.
Oh, yeah, Zappa used noise often to shake up ones conception of what music is. But that’s one of the ways in which we can distinguish art from pop.
@vanharris#44
WOW… I don’t know what to say or where to begin. You talk about rock being a “social contagion”, yet you list jazz as a music genre you like, which was treated at its inception as, you guessed it, a social contagion. Just because something creates a positive emotional response in you, does not mean it does in others, or vice versa. To compare a type of music you don’t like to a “social contagion” and to refer to those you disagree with as no different then crazy religious people makes YOU sound like the closed minded faith head. As to you having a problem with being inflicted by it without your consent, I have to ask you: have you ever listened to music outside without headphones? Or told someone something they didn’t want to hear? If you have ever verbally challenged any person’s opinions, crazy delusions or otherwise, they probably thought the same about you. I don’t mean to denigrate your musical preferences, I mean to point out the arrogant manner in which you assert your subjective opinion as an objective fact about others choices.
No Gods, No Masters
Cameron
B166ER
No. I consider that ignorant & inconsiderate behaviour.
Your analogy, “… Or told someone something they didn’t want to hear? If you have ever verbally challenged any person’s opinions, crazy delusions or otherwise…”, isn’t pertinent. It could only be so if i started picking on people. In a discussion or argument, it’s fair to disagree.
I would suggest at the very least that anyone who doesn’t enjoy listening to the music (I can understand it be under or over stimulating, as in: a) Wow, they just play the same chords throughout the song behind the same rhythm of notes! or b) Its loud and I can’t understand what anyone is saying or doing.) to go and read the lyrics for some of the songs I had suggested (post #6+7), Biddy (#25) and others. You may not like the sound, but once you read the lyrics you will all agree that these are very smart men behind the noise.
One caveat: with NOFX I wouldn’t go beyond any album after 2003, that is when it starts to get noise-yer and ruder, seeing at it is their earlier stuff.
vanHarris:
One of the most beautiful public performances we’ve ever heard was from a South American woman. We were in a public space and the woman was singing something in her native language. We had no idea what she was saying, but it was one of those rare transcendent experiences that we’ll never forget.
Some of the best music we’ve ever heard has been “found” music. That is, music that we stumble across in public spaces.
Everything from outdoor concerts and street music to mallzak and the stuff they play on the phone when you’ve been on hold for 20 minutes — all of it has the potential for discovery of something wonderful.
NOFX were around years before Green Day started playing and got popular. It seems more like the popped-up Green Day shit ripped off NOFX’s sound and watered it down for the masses. There are few bands that are more punk that NOFX. The lead singer, Fat Mike, has his own label, Fat Wreck Chords, which is nothing if not DIY.
I strongly support all of the recommendations for Bad Religion in the previous comments. I’ll also through in a recommendation for Pennywise since I didn’t see anyone mention them. Their song “My God” seems appropriate here:
VanHarris gets 10/10 for trolling.
crap.
come on pz, i know a lot of otherwise clever people have a blind spot for music appreciation, but there have to be some real talents out there who could express the avowed stances of this blog without hurting my ears.
and no, i don’t care if green day stole their crap and made it their own.
nor do i care how many people think “rock” is a real art. contributor “vanharris” quotes karolyi, whom he admits got it all wrong, he should have quoted arte shaw, who got it exactly right when he stated: “No matter how carefully and assiduously and how deeply you bury shit, the American public will find it and buy it in large quantity, It’s true, absolutely true.”
@random google name #53
Dude, I may disagree with vanharris on this subject, but he has NEVER been a troll here. He seems to always speak his mind, even unpopular opinions like this one on this thread, and doesn’t back down unless given sufficient evidence. On music, it’s all subjective. So if you have a problem with what he’s saying, bring your points to the table. But please don’t pull the troll card out unless absolutely necessary, and vanharris has never deserved that most odious of monikers.
@mulder #54
Where I agree that there is a lot of rock that is total corporate crap, there is a lot of art within the genre. Just like everything else, there’s always a lot of shit hiding the corn kernels of gold (sorry about that utterly tasteless and vulgar phrase). But to say that it’s all horrible just because you don’t like the sound of it would be like me saying you are illiterate because I don’t like your choice of words.
No Gods, No Masters
Cameron
@vanharris
Read your own definition moron. We get it, you’re an old fogey. Only you know what true music really is being a musician for 15 years. Oh wait… no… that’s me. Yes, argument from authority, and a proper one.
Loim | February 21, 2010 5:28 AM:
It’s a fun song, but I think PZ would disagree with some aspects of its message. (This could be projection on my part; I disagree with some aspects of that song as well.)
Jazz is just a bunch of NOISE! I only listen to wind chimes and music boxes, and they have to be at least 40 feet away!
@#57 llewelly
Yeah, after reading that post, I can see how the song can be taken in that direction. I never actually thought of it in that way. Of course we are all the same, just with different ideas, some more truthful and the others more like fairy tales. Its the ideas that need weeding, not the individual with the ideas.
The song could be taken as sort of a look at the Industrial Revolutions impact on environment and thus ourselves.
I still, however, agree that it is a fun song if not for the line “Darwin is rolling over in his coffin”.
Please show me the legions of Americans that are out buying NOFX, Bad Religion, etc. in “large quantities.”
i recant, it’s not all crap…aside from a very few though, carlos santana for example, the “art form” is, and has been, nearly flat-lining for at least three decades.
blame the death of the 45rpm, lots of up and coming types can write one or two tunes that don’t suck, and if they couldn’t perform them very well, at least they could bring in some of the studio boys to “help”.
look at the recent grammies…mostly given to hot, early 20’s tarts. who’s trying to kid who? don’t call them music awards, call them what they are, crap that thirteen year old morons are clamoring over each other to buy awards. (btw, that’s not opinion, it’s fact, the “music industry” gears to exactly 13 years olds).
blame also the demand for “new”, a really good song will cross genres and lend itself to dozens of arrangements. i’d far rather hear yet another version of gershwin than whatever nonsense brittney spears wrote last week while she was semi-lucid.
sad fact is that rock started dying almost as soon as it was born, all the newcomers striving to new heights of either grungy garbage or insipid, pretentious drivel.
still, one supposes it is a good idea to appeal to 13 year olds after all in this blog. likely an age at which many disciples of atheism toss out their potential religious indoctrination, so perhaps i was wrong to criticize at all; and it’s not like we weren’t more or less warned that some gawd awful crap was on offer.
sorry red, but just because some dreadful bands get lucky, and others don’t, doesn’t mean one is better than the next.
perhaps if NOFX dressed like hawt, early 20’s girls?!
@mulder
I’m not saying that “not popular” == good, and I definitely don’t think that NOFX should want or try to become popular (and I think they would agree). That’s not what music is about. They should write the music they want to write, not the music that will appeal to the most people. I was just trying to point out that your accurate quote about Americans buying shit in large quantities doesn’t apply to NOFX, because that’s not the case with them. I’m not saying you have to like them, but to dismiss them as shit because “all rock music sucks” is pretty ignorant. There are great artists in every genre of music, they just aren’t the ones targeting 13 year olds with their “music.”
actually, i never said “all rock music sucks”, i even have a few rocks tunes in my collection, not many, granted, but some.
i do regard it as near to damnit as swearing, i admit, but i’ve said i was wrong to criticize; anything for the cause and all.
may i sneakily point out though, that studies have shown hard rock and heavy metal as home to conservative / republican adherents significantly more than it holds attraction for the left leaning; but again, though the blog may be the offering of a leftist, one gathers that’s not the primary focus.
mind, this further validates your “non commercial” theory, if this band were out to make big $, they should be offering as much “born again” bullcrap as they can stick into the discernible bits.
With no further comment: The God Song by Bad Religion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKp4WYhkbuw
mulder, if you think a band has to praise Jesus to get rich, consider this…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHdlhUfJ5qc
again, i said nothing of the sort, only that it’s likely a surer way for a heavy metal / hard rock band to generate $, in fact it would probably be a good idea to stick in as much jingoistic jetsom as can conveniently be squeezed in as well.
clearly not a 1:1 formula in either case (as bart simpson points out, all the best bands are affiliated with satan), but it can’t hurt one’s chances of selling a few extra units.