The governor of Texas is ranting about seceding from the United States.
Speaking to an energetic and angry tea party crowd in Austin Wednesday evening, the Lone Star State governor suggested secession may happen in the future should the federal government not change its fiscal polices.
“There’s a lot of different scenarios,” Perry said. “We’ve got a great union. There’s absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we’re a pretty independent lot to boot.”
I seem to recall from my history books that some states tried that, once upon a time, long, long ago. How did that work out?
I also seem to recall from not too long ago that Republicans were rather free in slinging accusations of treason at Democrats (Ann Coulter wrote a book about it, and Jonah Goldberg tried to imply it), yet here is a governor actively inciting mobs with the idea of secession, which is a rather blatantly anti-patriotic act. Funny how their attitudes change.
Oh, and for comic relief: Chuck Norris offers to run for president of the independent nation of Texas. I’m almost tempted to agree that they should leave the union, just for the hilarious spectacle.
Not to mention removing dozens of Republican electoral college votes from the national elections.
Actually, Texas retained the right to secede from the Union when we joined. We aslo have the right to split in to 4 states if we want to. (Not that I’m advocating either of those!!!)
I believe it is also called sedition. These right wing morons forget that its the northern states which pay the most taxes and subsidize the southern states. I hope Texas tries to secede, Mexico will then try and overrun it.
If they secede, they will be virtually defenseless.
Even though this will likely not happen, I would feel bad for the small enclaves of progressives in Texas (Austin, Houston, etc.). They are surrounded by the fundamentalist rabble all around and in between that dust bowl of a state. Hopefully we could make an exchange; hundreds of our fundie buddies go there in exchange for their best and brightest.
Hell, let ’em go. The only thing that would bother me is that my sister and several cousins live there.
@Randomfactor
That is an unexpected perk!
Do…do we WANT Texas? Aside from a rapidly-dwindling oil supply, I’m not real sure what they have to offer except pure tragic comedy.
If only someone would teabag those people, then at least they’d shut up for a a little bit.
Well you know that who I am strongly considering for worlds worst tv personality, Glen Beck thought the perfect most appropriate place for him to have his teabagging party was the Alamo.
Well, considering that Texas has a hell of a lot of business headquarters and the oil industry, to boot, I doubt very seriously that we get any kind of subsidy as Druidbros suggests. However, lots of us Texans are getting very tired of Perry, and it wouldn’t surprise me if he lost the next election.
If you read the 10th Amendment, it really does imply that states have the right to secceed (since it is not forbidden to them anywhere in the Constitution). Plus, if I’m not mistaken, when Texas was admitted to the Union (after the Civil War), there was a clause explicitly stating that they could back out later. Not 100% sure about that part…
Heh, good riddance I say.
Also, we get to keep the heavy ion facility at Texas A&M. They can keep DFW airport, though.
I’ve been hearing that Governor Goodhair may be gearing up for a a primary challenge to Kay Bailey Hutchison for her senate seat. In Texas, Hutchison is considered moderate. Perry is trying to cater to the local party faithful, i.e., conservative leaning, gun-loving, government-hating kooks. Looks like he’s started early.
Thanks Outsider for recognizing that we exist! I was born here, a good amount of my family was born here going back all the way to the era it became a state. Not that I think Perry’s grandstanding bears any real weight (except possibly to mobilize random reactionary violence), but I’d hate to be a refugee in New Mexico! As far as I’m concerned what they are saying is the most un-American thing that can possibly be said. I don’t know how they excuse themselves.
Can we teabag Texas one last time before she leaves us for good? You know, for old times’ sake.
Hell, let Mexico have it, as it once a part of. That country is religion stricken, with the predomiant catholic affliction. Besides, it is crime ridden and the whole border is a festering sore of drugs, gun running, and unstoppable crime which even religion cannot stifle. Perhaps the rational people can get out before the state succumbs to total backwardness.
As I recall, there was quite a bit of unpleasantness about precisely this matter about a century and half ago…
I used to hear this all the time when I was in Texas, but I’ve never seen anyone point to the specific language in the specific document that indicates this (nor anyone indicate whether this clause is still legally in force).
Outsider- If you think Texas is a dustbowl, then you’ve clearly never been here. Maybe you should keep unfounded opinions to yourself!
:(
For the other naysayers, it’s silly to write off Texans. That’s stereotyping. It shows a lack of critical thinking on your part.
Not treason because it’s carefully worded not to mean anything.
See RCC’s legal analysis HERE.
Oh yeah… and only the one part of the state looks anything like a dust bowl. Most of non-urban Texas is either green hilly with many trees or prairie/farmland.
I’d say it’s empty rhetoric about empty rhetoric about empty rhetoric…
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Apparently, proposing to dissolve the United States because a majority of American citizens voted to kick your ass out of power is patriotic in the bizarro republican world.
Otherwise, its TREASON!
The dynamics between the South and the North haven’t changed much since the Civil War. The North still has the money and the education. Let them try again. What’s that saying about the definition of insanity?
Maybe dustbowl was a poorly chosen word. Sorry if I offended the Texans here! :)
All of the tea-bagging activity and talk of secession screams of one word: tantrum. They can be so infantile with their reasoning, outlook, and methods. Except these are adults. True whack-jobs.
Chuck Norris doesn’t balance budgets: he kicks their asses
I say let them go. Why do we want them? Charge them for all the money spent on the public systems like roads, electricity, etc, take away all the military weapons and such and let them fend for themselves without an infrastructure.
I just think it’s incredibly funny how they didn’t care about Bush taking an 8 year dump on our country’s reputation, and Obama’s been in office less than a year and they’re talking about seceeding. It’s mind-boggling really.
Well I knew it would turn into one of those “HELL YEAH THROW EM OUT WE DON’T NEED ‘EM. THEY’RE ALL DUMB REDNECKS” threads.
Ignorance knows no boundaries.
Kema, it hasn’t even been 3 months! Things are only starting to get interesting. I heard a speaker on NPR yesterday saying something about we are starting to see signs of coming out of this recession. I hope so. It will start to calm down some of these flying-off-the-handle whackos.
For those unfamiliar with Texas, here’s what’s going on:
One thing Texans like to do is talk about Texas with other Texans (certainly to non-Texans, as well). Texas built it’s state capitol building dome 14 feet taller than the national capitol building in Washington, D.C. Texas, having once been its own republic, flies its state flag at the same height as the U.S. flag. Texas is the largest state in square footage in the lower 48 states. Texas once had it’s own legation of the French embassy. Texas friendly. Don’t mess with Texas. Texas pride (that was a beer brand my grandfather used to drink, incidentally). And so forth.
In other words, this is a variation of “We’re Texas. Aren’t we great? Yes, yes we are. Let’s all pat ourselves on the back. Yeeee-haaaaaw!”
Texas is positively awash in this sort of narcissism, and that’s all it really is. Texas is no more going to secede than it is going to become humble any time soon.
But Texans are immersed in this sort of mutual admiration society thinking from day one (I was born and raised here, albeit in a part of the state often looked down upon by the rest of the state, until someone outside the state looks down on it, then they’re quick to jump to the defense of the region). It’s a variation of Christianity often playing the beleaguered and persecuted card. “Texas is independent, always has been, always will be! If we don’t like it, we’ll leave! See if we won’t!”
We won’t.
It’s almost masturbatory how much Texans think Texas is better than everything else, ever.
Perry’s a blowhard, and saw an opportunity to try and gather some ears for his future political bids, as Bobber mentions at #14. This is posturing.
The Pearson r between cattle and amount of bullshit in Texas runs around a .97 I’d bet, though I’ve never formally run the stats.
From one Texan to the rest of the world, I hope this has been at least worth a chuckle. As I’ve said before, the fight to bring rational, critical thinking, compassion, and long-term cooperative vision continues down here goes on every day.
*pitches cigarette butt into the mud, re-dons scarred helmet slightly askew and without fastening the chin straps, and stands wearily to head back to the front line*
No kings,
Robert
Let ’em leave. More for the rest of us.
I still don’t understand the prevailing sentiment that exists among so many in the republican crowd that somehow they are still the voting majority and that there’s this “faction government” now in place that is just ignoring the will of the American majority. Were any of them actually paying attention last November? You lost. Convincingly.
This douchebag Perry doesn’t even realize the irony of his own words: “But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people”… yeah… that’s exactly what they were doing… for years. Then we fixed that, quite convincingly, about 5 months ago.
re Tulse@18:
Wikipedia agrees with you:
I’ll give the governor a dollar if he gets Texas to leave the Union. I’ll even convert it to whatever currency the new country of Texas uses.
I personally like the sedition or the Voltron option. Split into 4 states. More electoral votes for Democrats, is all that is.
Or Texas can just leave the U.S. entirely. We’d get back some sanity control over our textbook approval industry. And we’d pretty much ensure federal GOP defeats for decades to come. Sounds like a win win. DC can become the new 50th state so that we don’t even have to change our flag.
Actually, texas (according to a quick bit of research I did recently in regard to this issue) only gets $0.97 back for each dollar of federal tax it pays. NM gets $2.00 for each $1.00 of tax it pays.
As foretold by the Prophet Fritz, A Specter Is Haunting Texas!
Lets be real. This is because we have a black democratic president.
These people can sit through 8 years of Bush, but they start talking about seceding after 4 months of Obama? This is lunacy!
Sorry to be a spoil sport, friends, but that whole “Texas has the right to secede” is an urban legend. See the very end of this Snopes article: http://www.snopes.com/history/american/texas.asp.
The annexation bill does provide for Texas being split up, but only to preserve the slave-state free-state balance of the Missouri Compromise. Considering slavery is now illegal, it’s pretty unlikely that the particular clause still applies.
I say we start a petition demanding that Texas leave the union.
Texas, unlike most of her Southern brethren, is a net-profit to the country. It was a much better net-profit before the Texan con-men took control of the country (went from the top 5 in the early 80s, producing $1 for every $0.81 spent on them, to about middle of the pack, sucking up close to $0.98 by the early 2000’s), but that’s not unexpected.
So, no, unlike Alaska and Alabama, they’re worth keeping. We just need to start taxing them again, and taking the burden off of sensible states that actually take care of their folks.
I fear Robert is right, but it would be nice. One fewer red state siphoning off ‘way more than its share of tax dollars while complaining nonstop about paying taxes at all, the end of Texas’ influence over the nation’s textbooks, 34 fewer wingnut electoral votes, etc.
Could it be done retroactively, so we could declare the Bush Administration null and void?
Check snopes.com:
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/texas.asp
summary:
On secession: “… the terms of the Texas’ annexation contain no such provision.”
on division, Yes it could be divided up into four additional states ( five total) but governed by Article IV, Section 3 of the US Constitution, which would require consent of both Congress and the state.
YEAH!!
And while we’re at it. Lets get Alabama and South Carolina and Louisiana too!!
Fuck those people!
Celtic Evolution at #33:
Excellent point. It seems to me one of the issues with modern U.S. Republicans ties in very closely with the “Texas – we’re great and we’re going to tell you about it” thing. I can’t remember which one of C+ Augustus’s close circle said it (Bill Kristol or some other joker at the PNAC?), but one of those guys was talking one time about how “reality is what the U.S. wants it to be” or similar.
What a jackass. Well, if you, as a voting population, had been consistently reinforced in this idea that reality is what you will it to be, I imagine there’d be a lot of denial left over when it turns out that, for all one’s willing something to happen, something different happened.
Which reminds me of something. If I could just put my finger on what it was . . . .
No kings,
Robert
P.S. Apologies for syntax/grammar errors in my previous post.
If Texas leaves the union, then what will become of our friends at the ACA? I don’t know about you folks, but I don’t want to be without the Non Prophets.
Outsider #30 “It will start to calm down some of these flying-off-the-handle whackos.”
No it won’t. It will only make it worse because then they’d have to admit that a black Democrat “socialist” President did something correct and the previous conservative President did something wrong. Admitting being wrong or being responsible for something bad is something conservatives are violently against doing.
This is kind of a dumb-foreigner question, but isn’t it actually quite reasonable for a region of a country to claim a right to self-determination if the central government no longer has the consent of the people there?
I understand that the Union victory in the civil war was a good thing (stopping slavery and all). I get that the people talking up secession are exactly the sort of people who shouldn’t get more power. I’m prepared to believe that Texas seceding wouldn’t be good. It’s just the principle of the thing bugs me.
If the Scots (or even the Welsh or even Cornish) voted for independence, I wouldn’t think it reasonable to insist they remain British against their will. If Madeira or the Basque country or Flanders voted for independence, I’d support their right to do so. (In these cases I think they’d be making mistakes, but that it was their mistake to make). I believe Tibetans and Kurds have the right to secede from the countries they currently live in.
Is there any good reason that I should feel differently about the Texans (or Alaskans or whatever)?
The problem is that there are two conflicting rights: The right of self-determination on the side of the people and the right of territorial integrity on the side of the state.
That is the very problem that led to the short but brutal conflict in Georgian Republic.
I’d say hand Texas to the Mexicans. This will save precious tax money (and that’s what it’s all about, isn’t it?) because they won’t have to build and maintain their stupid fence anymore.
Don’t mess with Chuck Norris. Chuck is so “bad” that his tears can whip cancer; too bad he has never cried. When Chuck was born only the doctor cried; nobody slaps Chuck Norris.
serious question. What can obama do against a governor attempting to secede ? Can he put him out of the office ? Can he do anything ( besides military attack ) ?
I would hate Texas to leave… True, we would lose a great many unused minds, but we would also lose the Nonprophets, AronRa, and other great Atheist/Evolutionary proponents.
I would also hate to have my state move another slot closer to first place on the ignorance chart.
I still don’t understand the prevailing sentiment that exists among so many in the republican crowd that somehow they are still the voting majority and that there’s this “faction government” now in place that is just ignoring the will of the American majority. (Celtic_Evolution @33)
Well, the Rs spent the last decade or so pandering–quite successfully–to that view. And part of that was setting up a media infrastructure that allows these people to almost never hear an differing point of view.
Before Reagan took office, being the sheltered sort of wingnut who never had to hear people who disagreed with him/her was a lifestyle that took a bit of money. The Rs’ big contribution to the common people is making that option available to all.
*******
Texas’s federal money (income/outgo) is less than 1.00? I stand corrected.
I rather like this version of Desert Son’s words
http://www.imeem.com/people/j7eq3/music/5OtOtv4A/austin-lounge-lizards-stupid-song-about-texas/
Perry is simply a Texas A&M joke, A&M is a school known for it’s “Aggie jokes”. Just replace “blond” with “Aggie” and you get the picture. He’s been in office since Bush left in 2001. They train the traffic engineers for the rest of the state & country, which explains a lot when you’re in horrible traffic for no observable reason. A&M’s hometown, Bryan, has the worst traffic for a small town, no lights are in sync at any intersection. I can go on, but won’t…
Perry is wanting to run again for Governor but will face Kay Baily Hutchinson in the primaries, during which he’ll most likely lose. Since the democrats will run their usual old boring white guy from (pick one- Dallas or Houston) the state will elect Ms Hutchinson. Unless Kinky Friedman manages to get the nomination (highly unlikely…).
He’s already been in office longer than any other governor of Texas – which makes his office ripe for incumbent narcissism and the usual arrogance, greed and corruption of those in power about to lose said power.
As far as secession talk – it’s the same pandering to the lunatic fringe that made Sarah Palin so popular, forgetting that she lost. Just remember, he’s an Aggie and well… Aggie is as Aggie does.
But what if for example scotchmen did not want independence at all, only a local politician that they unknowingly voted in the office made the state secede.
It happened in former czechoslovakia. we unknowingly voted meciar and klaus into the office, they ripped the country against the will of the majority. 70 % of us did not want a split. But they cid it simply without asking us at all.
The great rock band Camper Van Beethoven released an album just a few years ago (New Roman Times) that is a song cycle about a future, fragmented USA warring among itself, split into at least three factions. The True Christian Church of Texas is the name of one of the breakaway republics. Hmmm…
Do you think we could get the Mexicans to trade us Baja California for Texas?
Here’s “The Tax Foundation” data from ’81 to ’05:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22685.html
Funding levels are primarily driven by who’s in the White House.
Gee, I sure hope the door doesn’t hit Perry’s wide Texas Ass on the way out. I’ve been wondering how we find a loophole in the Treaty of Appomattox. Maybe that won’t be necessary. Now, I realize we have our Yahoos in the North, but it does seem that the real nutjobs seem to head south. On humanitarian grounds, I think we need to grant asylum to all intelligent people from the South. They are a persecuted minority. Maybe they’ll do us a favor and take the Northern rightwing nutjobs as well.
Knock yourself out Texas. You and Québec can both stand outside in the rain and think about cookies together.
DO IT TEXAS! DO IT!
Imagine how happy you would be, Texas! You won’t have to put so much energy into the vicious stranglehold you’ve placed on public school textbooks across the nation to preserve the sanctity of truth as the Bible declares it. Let the new US (with a big Texas-shaped hole!) teach its kids a cold, cruel, purely scientific version of how the universe works. Meanwhile YOU could teach your children about Jesus, and creation, and how the earth is 6000 years old.
You can start imprisoning heretics! And burning witches! Just like the Bible commands! And you won’t have any more gay pride parades to worry about. And you can lift taxes and privatize your roads and prisons and just let the market take care of *everything* because everyone knows that the market knows best.
Go Texas! Show the world how it should be done! Your success will be a shining beacon of education to the rest of the world!
Then I wouldn’t support it. I’m only talking about when the government really doesn’t have the consent of the people to govern a region (something more like Czechoslovakia gaining independence from the Austrians, I guess, but my central European history isn’t that great).
Also, “Scotsmen (and women)”; it’s been known for some of them to get quite worked up about that.
Thank you, Rev. BigDumbChimp, for being a voice of reason.
I live in the South, and while I hate the morons who hold most of the offices here, I don’t particularly fancy becoming a refugee. So I kind of wish we’d can it with the secession cheerleading.
#52 T_U_T
Serious answer. AFAIK There isn’t anything a sitting US President can do about morons being elected by the voters, nor really should there be (see Bush, the lesser). The Civil War didn’t go hot until Ft. Sumter was attacked in Charlston Harbor. Up to that point, things could have been different. The US still owns lots of land in Texas which would have to be held, sold, or otherwise disposed. The start of the War of Northern Aggression (love them southern relatives) came down to the South wanted all the US Forts, land, and bases. The US told them to go fish as they did not offer just compensation, It is quite possible that without the attack on Federal property, the WBS would not have occured for several more years due to the economic collapse of the South. They would have to be busy trying to run a country without a strong central government which has never worked. (See US Articles of Confederation – Constitution of the Confederate States of America, post Soviet Russia – CIS, and other failed nations/nationstates)
My understanding (probably flawed) of the Czech/Slovak situation was that Slovaks had been howling for years about being put upon by the Czechs and wanting to determine their own course as a separate nation (like the French minority wants in Canada). When those guys were elected, they effectively held a referendum or vote of some sort and the vote by the Czech majority was to give the Slovaks what they’d been whining about for years: a country of their own – kicking them out of Czechoslovakia.
When put to the question, however, the Slovak minority wasn’t as keen on it as it had made to appear by secessionist voices. Their votes did not favour secession, but the Czech majority quite effectively overruled them.
In Canada, where we have a minority group regularly bitching about seceding from the country, the Czech example is occasionally held up as a reminder: Be careful what your cranky folks ask for, Quebec… you might just get it: look at Slovakia.
Wait, so Perry says that there is “absolutely no reason to dissolve” the Union, and then he makes a threat to do it?
Not only could this be construed as treason, Perry’s words could also be seen as a cheap, underhanded, passive-aggressive manipulation tactic.
This country is small-d democratic for a reason: when you lose an election, you may not get what you want. Boo freakin’ hoo — how does Perry think I felt the last eight years? I certainly wasn’t spewing threats against the government, even when I profoundly disagreed with its decisions. All those who agree with Perry’s stated views on this subject should be ashamed of themselves, and the Governor owes this country a strong apology, at the very least.
do you say that US of america have no legal means of protecting their territorial integrity ?
@52
Technically, it would need to be a military action. The police and national guard are under the command of the governor. Obama is technically at the top of the chain of command, but people are loyal to their local leaders.
He wouldn’t do anything though. No one thinks any sort of secession is a possibility. Yes, they are angry a black man is president, but no one is gonna secede. It would mean civil war. It would be horrible. No country can just let places go. One group gets out then another, if you don’t take action on the first you might end up having to face multiple “enemies.” It would be the signaling of the end of your rule.
yeah. slovak ultranationalist minority screamed like pandemonium that they exploit us.
czech ultranationalist minority screamed like pandemonium that we parasitise on them.
But majority of people did not buy it at all. Had there been a referendum, most people would vote against splitting
“I still don’t understand the prevailing sentiment that exists among so many in the republican crowd that somehow they are still the voting majority and that there’s this “faction government” now in place that is just ignoring the will of the American majority. Were any of them actually paying attention last November? You lost. Convincingly…”
The prevailing sentiment in the Yellow Elephant Club is borne from a mixture of A) still extant but much more “subterranean” feelings that a white society is what made America possible, B) the sense that communism is still an ominous international force that simply went guerilla when the Soviets fell, and C) jingoistic nativism and nationalism that maybe had a place during a real war like WW2 (or in the face of the kind of evil terrorism represents on a case-by-case basis), but has since been re-purposed and combined with the belief that communism has invaded the US and made everyone pussies bent on controlling the economy and giving in to international pressures.
None of this is even remotely true, but when the less educated among us listen to literal days of hate talk radio blaming anyone and everyone but the repugs for the country’s ills, a cadre of foam-spewing hate-driven political zombies otherwise known as the Republican base is what we should expect to get out of it. A lot of these people are drunk on Limbaugh, Beck, and Hannity, to say nothing of Savage, and a lot of them believe blatant revisionist history, the kind that opportunist, manifest-destiny theocrats like David Barton write about. And that’s before we get to the neocons.
These people aren’t interested in being wrong, much less admitting it. They *believe* they are right because, and I think this is a safe bet, that down to a man at these teabag parties they are all Bible thumpers or at the very least conservative Sunday morning regulars. They don’t have to worry about being wrong because their twisted reading of their already twisted book tells them they’re right beyond all human sense of reality. They think they have a cosmological free pass, and everything else is simply part of the play. All the fears of terrorism, communism, etc. are all based off of models of the good vs. evil struggle they color every aspect of their lives with. You could see it in some of their pathetic signs. One read something like “I’ll keep my guns, bible, and dignity…” I think that pretty much explains the level of critical thinking we’re dealing with.
I say let them go. We won’t end up with any more dumbass Texans running for president. It’s already one of the most polluted, fattest and crime ridden states anyway.
I would feel bad for Austin though.
Why don’t we start a campaign to BOOT TEXAS!
Would it be a terrible loss? And what about Alaska, let them go too. :)
Perry’s a dead man walking, playing to the peanut gallery in the hopes that he’ll win the next Republican primary. Of course he won’t because Hutchinson wants to be governor and she’s going to eat him like cheap popcorn at a drive in.
As to the issue of what the Pres can do, he can censor Perry publicly if he likes, he can push the Congress to limit federal funds going to Texas (which he won’t do because Chet Edwards [my congressman :)] is one of his go-to guys), and he can brow-beat him privately for these statements. And that’s all he can do until Perry or another one of these yokels mentions guns and fighting; once that happens they’ve crossed the line advocating the violent overthrow of the United States and federal intervention becomes viable.
Holbach: The only reason Mexico is crime-ridden is because the U.S. refuses to develop a coherent and effective drug policy. You have no more right to be ignorant and self-righteous than religious people do, so tone it down please.
eruvande @ 65: We pretty much just have to take the abuse from them. We get threatened and ganged up on as a nearly voiceless minority at home, and then hated by everyone else for being from where we are. That’s our lot unless we want to pack up, move, and pretend to be from somewhere else and have no family.
So, that if he just formally declares independence, without any threatening with guns or violence, the federal government can do nothing but to watch them go ? I don’t believe it.
I really like living in Austin,TX… but I would have to move if Texas seceded. Yes, Texas has that right… we like to think it makes us unique but in truth its as far off from actually happening at spontaneous existence failure. What could we do with all those U.S. Military bases? We would instantly be an occupied nation, w/o currency of our own and a puny Texas guard!. We would lose every national company that didn’t want to deal with the paperwork of making themselves an international company… etc.
Kiss my ass Julian. Texas sucks.
My bad. Thought that was addressed to me. Sorry Julian.
Texas still sucks.
(#24) “…Civil War. … Let them try again. What’s that saying about the definition of insanity?
Definition of insanity: Some idiot who wouldn’t mind another Civil War? “Bring ‘Em On!”
No, it doesn’t. Scroll up.
T U T, pretty much the only thing I can think of other than a military action would be economic – cutting off all federal money* and possibly an economic blockade a la Cuba. But I think there’s reasonable doubt as to how effective economic sanctions actually are.
*I assume this would be a given if a state seceded – if you’re not part of the US than you don’t get your US federal highway money, etc. anymore.
sigh
(40,83) Sorry, Natalie, you’re not allowed to spoil perfectly good rants with facts.
@ 79
Texas has no more right to secede than any other state, it never has. The notion that it can “pack it’s bags and move out” is nothing more than one more example of Texan narcissism, an inflated sense of self-worth, and bad history lessons.
Fuck you guys seriously. North Dakota’s abortion laws? Prop 8?
Shove it up your already full asses. There are bigoted idiots in every state, and in control of an awful lot of them. There are also clearly bigoted idiots right here! So fuck you, and you know exacly who you are.
Matt Heath: The main difference is that the Union is a federation, not an dominion as the UK was. The Scots, Welsh and Irish never agreed to be part of England (well, the Scots did, but only because the English bankrupted them and offered to drop the debt in exchange for “union”), but we all agreed to stick it out together. Secondly, when we entered the Union, of our own free will, we promised to defend, not dissolve it. Considering that all of the states decided together to create the Union (or, in the case of settled areas to expand it), it should logically take the agreement of all the state’s to dissolve or shrink it.
a second point to remember is that, in Europe, nation-states were created through small, weak ethnicities being dominated by more numerous, stronger ethnicities. as a result, ethnic reconciliation and self-determination; in effect the turning back of medieval and Renaissance intra-Europe colonialism, has become part of the modern, multicultural, anti-imperialist political project. In other words, the process of political consolidation created ethnic tensions
But jahigginbotham, then what will I have to say!?
Oops; I wasn’t finished; accidentally hit the post button during spot-edit.
… created ethnic tensions which are only now being addressed by less nationalistic central governments. No such process occurred in the Union as each admittance was a purely constitutional and mutual process between the central government and the “locals”. Of course, Native Americans were viciously oppressed and dominated, but they really aren’t pertinent to this discussion because they weren’t part of the polities which decided on accession.
Hey if the Texans secede you could always rebuild the border fence and the sensors and the cameras around Texas instead. Maybe you should tell them to do it. At a stroke you get:
-Better Biology textbooks
-A better international ranking on those pesky Death Sentence statistics
-A raising of your IQ (ducks and runs)
Heath: A simpler way to think about it would be this. If you and I enter into a contract, I can’t simply decide I don’t like it and declare it void. We decided, together, to enter into a legal agreement, and we are both bound by the enforcement provisions of that agreement. Because the states joined the Union through a similar contractual process, all the states are similarly bound together by that contract (the Constitution and the Accession treaties); not only by those conventions which share out federal tax income and provide for mutual defense, but also those enforcement provisions that require each state to respect the laws of the others and prevent succession. Because European states were (except in the case of Germany, Poland, Switzerland and I think, Belgium) created through force, and not the result of contractual agreement, the provinces within them aren’t bound by such provisions.
Then there’s the fact that, when Europeans talk about self-determination for a region, they are in effect talking about granting it the rights which all U.S. states already enjoy to a large extent.
@ 91
And don’t forget the electoral college advantages. The days of hyper-“conservative” whackjobs being influential in the federal Congress or being elected president would pretty much be done.
(40,83) Sorry, Natalie, you’re not allowed to spoil perfectly good rants with facts.
#77, I don’t think we do have to take it. That’s why I opened my mouth (well, I’m typing, but whatever) in the first place. And I certainly wouldn’t deny my background just to make fauxgressives feel better.
I feel I am within my rights to demand that people quit being assholes. :) And I also feel I’m within my rights to ask why, as so-called progressives and humanists, so many people here and in other places are so ready to say “yes, go ahead, secede” and urge others to just give up the homes they’ve worked so hard for to a bunch of Dominionist rednecks. Fuck that.
Chimp!!!!!!!!!!! Why on earth do you want to retain Mississippi?
Julian. Thanks for responding. Those are somewhat relevant differences, I am sure. (I’d quibble over your history of the Act of Union, though; the Scottish government mostly bankrupted itself, although their English equivalents helped them to do so then took advantage of the situation).
For the sake of argument though, if it were the case that at some point in the future the vast majority of people in a state didn’t consent to being governed by the United States (which I’ll accept would make them traitors to the US), do you think it would be right to force them to be US Citizens, on the basis that the people living that state generations before consented to be so?
I can’t see how the actions of people now dead can give any government the right to rule over a region that collectively refuses to be ruled by them. Government requires the consent of governed, not their ancestors, surely.
(Once more for clarity, my point is not to support any separatists)
OH YEAH FUCK THEM TOO, AND TENNESSEE AND NORTH CAROLINA AND OKLAHOMA AND FLORIDA (well just the northern part of course)!!!!!11
THEY HAVE PEOPLE IN THEM THAT SAY THINGS I DON’T LIKE. SOME OF THEM ARE EVEN ELECTED!!!1!!!!11111
SO LETS GET RID OF THE WHOLE STATE!!!!!
Another right-wing hypocrisy, I’m really looking forward to them getting “thumped” in 2010. They are so far out of the main stream they need to pander to the fringe.
http://www.TheNewAtheist.com
Hey now, leave North Carolina out of this…I don’t want to have to move. lol
No, PZ, this is not treason. Treason is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. This is sedition. The penalties are just as bad, but it’s easier to prove.
As for secession, the Constitution goes into painful detail as how to admit a new state. It says nothing about letting one go. It would seem that to allow secession, the Constitution would have to be amended. (Frankly, I’m quite surprised the South didn’t try that in 1858-enough of the North was willing to let them go it might have worked.)
If the Constitution is amended, I would vote against allowing Texas to seceed unless they take Oklahoma with them. The US needs Mississippi for flood-control reasons, and Alabama to be the butt of jokes. I see no useful purpose for Oklahoma other than tornado research, and we can realistically do that somewhere else with only minor inconveniences.
Isnt Bachmann from Minnesota?
She’s been spouting this recession/revolution nonsense as well.
Hey PZ,you might be in for a secession too !!
On his way out of Austin for Washington, George Bush had a bumper sticker that read “If you think I was bad, wait till you see the guy who’s replacing me!”
Perry is an Aggie, so it’s not just that he’s a dumb redneck Texan, he’s a Aggie. I apologize in advance in case there happens to exist a rational Aggie on this board.
Anyway, nobody here thinks he’s serious and he’ll be gone soon. He’s just posturing since Kay Bailey Hutchison is going to kick his ass this fall. She is about as close to a Democrat as you’re going to see in a statewide election in Texas. Kinky is thinking of running as a Democrat this fall. Probably not going to put up much of challenge.
We do have some rational people here, we’re just outnumbered right now. Austin is a liberal hotbed but not enough to deal with the rednecks and fundies throughout the state. Plus, a lot of the liberal in Austin is watered down in a wooo, new age way.
Texas demographics is going to undergo a huge change in the coming years. The white population will be a large minority by 2050 given current treads, so Texas could be in for some interesting times.
Been living here along time and most of the “Texas Pride” is like a lot of other things, blown way out of proportion. It’s quaint but a lot of us have moved on.
I just want to know who is going to pay my dislocation allowance!
I am, first and foremost, a citizen of the United States of America. I have served in her military and worked in her civil services. I consider myself to be an American, not a Texan.
The South is a land of boiling lava and unbearable humidity. Good riddance to all of it. Give me coastal summers and continental winters, or give me an air conditioner!
I honestly don’t understand how you people who live down South don’t melt.
They bought it enough to elect sufficient ultranationalists to split the country… oops.
I have also been led to believe that most of the “good stuff” whatever that might be, was on the Czech side and Slovakia kind of ended up losing the lion’s share of the benefits that it had in the union. The Czech’s apparently lost out a little but not nearly as much.
Personally, I’ve only ever heard Slovaks complain about the split (and it may surprise you to know that I talk to both Czechs and Slovaks relatively often via amateur radio, although politics is seldom a major topic). Of course, my sample size is very small and may not be representative.
Rev, I think they still don’t get it…
Faulkner. Welty. The blues. Slugburgers. Gulf coast sunsets. Pretty good Thai food. BB King. Oprah.
Gads, you people are as bad as the rednecks.
Seriously, they are. No grasp of culture at all.
These guys, Glen Beck, Limbaugh and Perry are simply barking mad.
It takes an incredible, herculean, inconceivable act of stupendous doublethink to enthusiastically endorse talk of secession, all the while continuing to rave like a rabid American nationalist.
I have to say, I’m amazed. So amazed I joined this typekey thing just to say how amazed I am. I thought Republicans couldn’t get any crazier, yet here we are.
Personally, I think secession is a terrible idea, but being a global governance guy, I would say that.
we had no experience with democracy back then. We just kicked commies out. We had no clue the politicians we voted in would do thing like that.
Julian: Because European states were (except in the case of Germany, Poland, Switzerland and I think, Belgium) created through force, and not the result of contractual agreement, the provinces within them aren’t bound by such provisions.
If you think that the US was formed by a “contract” and not by force, other than nominally, I’ve got a bridge to sell ya!
Seriously, the Constitution was barely approved in most states, after almost everyone was already eliminated from the voting lists. The process would not be considered in any way legitimate today, and what matters is what is legitimate today, not what was considered legitimate at the time, since by that standard, every process is legitimate. It was forced upon the people of the states by their elites — it’s about as legitimate as Kashmir joining India, or China’s claim to Taiwan and Tibet (Tibet did enter into a relationship with China via an agreement, at least initially).
Of course, it would be insane for a set of major states to leave — it would be an economic catastrophe. But that’s a separate issue than moral and or legalistic quibblings.
Italy as well was nominally created by lords joining their states together (except for the republic of San Marino), excluding the Popes who wouldn’t give up without a gun pointed at their head.
Heres some Texas facts to educate you northerners:
Texas has the second highest GDP of all the states.
Texas has the second largest workforce of the states.
Texas has the most farms by size and number in the US.
Texas has the most Fortune 500 companies of any other state.
Texas is the largest exporter of goods in the United States.
DFW is the fourth largest airport in the World.
Texas has more defense contractors than any other state producing a majority of the missiles and fighter planes used in the western hemisphere.
Texas is home to the 1st Armored and 1st Cavalry divisions with the two largest US Army bases.
Texas invented the integrated circuit starting the computer revolution.
If Texas was its own country it would have the 10th-15th highest GDP in the WORLD.
Don’t mess with Texas.
Please don’t forget me and my family when that exchange goes down.
Governor Perry, another Republican dimwit from Texas who quotes Sam Houston in his speech about secession, forgets his history. Sam Houston was against secession!
From Wikipedia: “He [Sam Houston] was evicted from his office [governor of Texas] on March 16, 1861, for refusing to take an oath of loyalty to the Confederacy…”
Pathetic.
Nope sorry. Fuck you too Bronze Dog. You and your rational family and friends don’t count. We here at Look What Rational Thinkers We Are When It Comes to Geographical Stereotypes, INC. have a standard policy of throwing the baby out with the bathwater and no amount of reasoning can change our rage.
People in the Upper Peninsula in Michigan have been talking about “the Great State of Superior” for years. Mostly, it sells bumper stickers to the Trolls (those who live under the Mackinaw Bridge). Apparently, there’s a limit to how many states can be in the former Northwest Territory, so they can’t form their own state.
I’d like to see them leave the Union so their science standards will stop determining what textbooks my children will be using the next decade.
If Texas was its own country it would have the 10th-15th highest GDP in the WORLD.
Until your pissed off northern neighbour destablises your fledgling government and institutions, bombs the nascent theocracy that replaces them into the stone age and takes all your oil.
Texas might be it’s own country in Theory (and I use the word the way creationists do), but reality would suck.
Yet again another example of how the Theothuglican party hates the USA. But we already knew that.
At least Perry has destroyed his chances for any significant following outside of Texas.
The civil war wasn’t much fun for anyone. We don’t need to repeat it with 21st century weapons.
Yeah, Rev. I can see what you mean. I make Texas-is-superior jokes all the time, when it’s obvious that they mean nothing. I guess most dwellers of the 49 lesser states are angry that we’re lording our vast underground caches of TOTALLY AWESOME over them. They want to get rid of us to satisfy their fascist commie ways.
You get the feeling some of these guys are the ones who always ask “Do you wear shoes?” and “How are you liking your first experience with electricity?” and “Did your cousin kiss good?”
They did it when I was there. The talk died down after the governor gave a speech in Marquette and was photographed with the state senator. The smart people can do the arithmatic and understand they get more money from the state in aid and snow removal payments than they fork over in taxes.
Julian @ 76
Come on, that is half bullshit and you know it. Why don’t we have the same problem with our civilized northern neighbors, Canada? Are you ignoring Mexico’s history of previous conquest by a savage European power backed up by pernicious relgion, and horrible climate that deadens the brain into lassitude and perhaps crime which is easier than working? I can mention many more factors that contribute to Latin America’s propensity for crime and social breakdown, but all I can say is that I am glad that I am nearer to Canada’s civilized people than in close proximity to that hellhole of Mexico. Self-righteous? You bet I am when I compare where I live to where I have no intention of living, let alone visiting. We are fortunate to have Canada as our northern neighbor. If Spain or Portugal had settled there instead of Great Britian or France, we would have the same situation as prevails on our southern border.
Re #76, You’re certainly right that US drug policy is a big contributor to the Mexican crime problem. However, I think at least two other factors are significant: 1) overpopulation, and 2) an even bigger income gap between rich and poor than exists in the US. These two are not unrelated to each other, either.
I lived in Mexico for four years, and am acutely aware that the US has contributed hugely to problems there, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that US drug policy is the “only reason” that Mexico is crime-ridden.
I like the discussion on the Czech and Slovak fall-out, especially in light of the fact that they were only put together 70 years earlier to prevent the creation of a Czech state with 40% German minority. By combining the Czech and Slovaks in one state, the titular nations at least had a 70/30 majority over the German minority.
As in regards to the “don’t mess with Texas” post, it’s funny to count the two big US forces on Texan territory as your assets if you want to break loose from the union.
Texas could be the new Iraq.
Has Oil Check
Dominated by religious fanatics split up into rival sects that hate each other Check
Hot semidesert climate Check
Run by malevolent madmen Check
Hmmm, I think I know where our next war will be. Is Austin anything like Baghdad?
We should keep Mississippi because Brett Favre lives there.
@Holbach
You are forgetting that the US stole Arizona, New Mexico and California (just before the gold rush too) by deliberately fomenting war with Mexico. Not to mention encouraging, aiding and abetting the rebels in Texas. Without the US I submit that Mexico might be a very different place than it is today.
You see us foreigners don’t have to accept your national myths at face value. Now stand away from the argument or I’ll be forced to bring up the Nez Pierce.
I, currently living in Texas as well as attending college in Texas have it hard enough in this fucking red state.I hope that Texas doesn’t do something stupid like this :-(
I think Quebec should secede from the United States, too!
…What? Stop staring.
Peter Ashby @ 129
It was fortuitous that The US “stole” those three states, otherwise we would have a greater incursion of crime and hell knows what from a greater border with hellhole Mexico. Mexico is under discussion here. Your bringing up the Nez Perce(correct) Indians is another can of worms not relevant to this topic.
Hmm… how many US military bases would they be giving up. How many military retiree’s (like me). San Antonio would almost dry up. I certainly wouldn’t be staying around under the new fundamentalist laws they would probably end up enacting. To paraphrase Cartman, “Fuck you Perry, I’m outta here”
There’s a thread in my hometown’s forum about this that’s been going on since October 1:
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/paris-tx/TLJ6C4FRJGRQQANQL
It’s still an active topic of discussion.
I thought it was funny when it started for the same reason PZ mentions. Conservatives talk about how treasonous liberals are. They talk about going to Canada! But when someone slightly to the left of them gets elected, these Texan conservatives start talking about secession.
Reading that forum makes me glad I don’t live there anymore.
I’ll pack their bags and help build the “north-border fence”, just let me get my tools ready.
The only thing good to ever come out of Texas was NASA and Tex-Mex.
you haven’t thought this through, have you…
sure let’s kick ND out of the Union, therefore instantaneously rendering in not only a 3rd world country, but also the 4th largest nuclear power in the world
*facepalm*
As someone who supported the right of self determination for the republics and individuals of the USSR, applying the same to the states and individuals the United States would seem a natural and consistent extension. RobertDW would call it “the right to leave the group”. The right is a principle of moral argument, since the “right” when not exercised, is implied consent to the perhaps oppresive rules and measures of the “group” (read “collective”. I’ve used the argument myself, but how real is the “right”?
Leaving the USSR was risky and expensive involving leaving the comfort zone of your ethnic culture, traveling to far flung borders, and then a fast dash across mine fields and barbed wire, while being shot at. It was easier to leave Saddam’s “sovereignty”, if one considers Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iran as viable alternatives, was staying “consent” to rape rooms, torture and genocide? Palestinians easily leave Palestine if they choose and find employment and communities elsewhere in the middle east and the west. Leaving the US to escape the draft was “easy”, when Canada was accomodating, but recently Canada has been unfriendly towards “deserters”.
Perhaps Texas would have a stronger case for succession, if it first exercised its right to divide into 5 states. Its increased power in the Senate and the electorial college might entice it to stay, and if pieces decided to secede, the smaller sizes would decrease the concern that sizable populations were unwillingly be taken with them. After all, any moral objection to the southern succession was not very strong if based merely on the abstraction of “preserving the union”, it was rather that this succession was not really based upon the right of self determination, since women and slaves did not have the vote.
Where are you from?
it is all bullshit!
the ambitious reactionary republicans and their spokes people only know how to incite the “base” with anger and resentment, reason or reality have no place in their speeches. I doubt that any of them really think what they say is really true other than in some poetic sense, they would argue it is just exaggeration to make a political point. It is how they try to manipulate the crowd!
I had a job once where I had to ride around in a truck with the “boss” who liked to listen to Rush the fat guy up until then I had not understood how Hitler’s speeches worked not speaking German, but listening to the fat guy those weeks was an education. He just pounded on resentment relentlessly and pointing at the liberals to blame, could have just as easly been the Jews.
trouble with riding a tiger is how do you get off when you get where you want to go.
@eruvande #118: Humor comprehension fail.
Peter Ashby,
“You are forgetting that the US stole Arizona, New Mexico and California (just before the gold rush too) by deliberately fomenting war with Mexico.”
You are forgetting that Mexico did not really exist at the time, there were several different armies in the field at the time vying for control of “Mexico”, the US army won by capturing Mexico City, but evidently considered the region ungovernable, and so entered into the fiction of a “purchase” of what it already had, by the customary “right of conquest”. To suggest that one of the generals in the field had more right to Mexico than the US, because of their pure-blood spanish descent, would, of course, be racism. The US claim to the Mexican territory was as great as Santa Anna’s and based upon the same means.
Jadehawk,
I think you missed blueelm’s point. Every state sucks in it’s own special way[1], so people should spend more time removing the plank from their own eyes instead of calling for kicking states out of the US for their particular brands of wingnuttery. You’d think the California Prop 8 reference would have been enough to tip you off that blueelm wasn’t suggesting secession.
*facepalm*
[1] Well, if we ignore the positive correlation most of the wingnuts have wrt religion.
oh well, if I missed the sarcasm, then I apologize, the thread is rife with “let them go” silliness
anyway, the nuclear power things was simply something that came up in a conversation sparked by this thread: while the bases might get emptied (most military personnel is from out-of-state anyway), the buried nukes would stay buried. ND would suck as an independent state: has nukes, religious fundies, and oil.
From another Texan (third generation – apparently my ancestors got run out of Tennessee), sincere thanks to Rev. BDC for taking an uncompromising stand against anti-Texas bigotry.
Sure, my native land has blowhards and bigots and Bible-thumpers and big-haired bimbos, but it’s also got incredible natural beauty and biological diversity as well as diverse and vibrant institutions of higher learning, renowned museums, and a population that includes many fine scientists, writers, artists, musicians, etc. (some of which are even Aggies).
And as the Austin Lounge Lizards attest, Texans (some of us, anyway) can also laugh at ourselves.
@Holbach
Sure ignore my point that Mexico would be a very different place and your assumption that it would be the same sort of ‘hellhole’ is just a biased assumption. And I was talking about national myths, so the Nez Perce were entirely relevant. Do try and keep up, there’s a good chap.
NakedBunny @ #140: No, you, dude…I was agreeing with Rev. :)
For some reason it brings this exchange to mind:
Hudson: Let’s just bug out and call it even, OK? What are we talking about this for?
Ripley: I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
Hudson: Fuckin’ A…
Burke: Ho-ho-hold on, hold on one second. This installation has a substantial dollar value attached to it.
Ripley: They can *bill* me.
No, Texas should not be nuked ; ) The wingnuts would probably be the sole survivors.
Uncle Frogy speaking of Rush “He just pounded on resentment relentlessly and pointing at the liberals to blame, could have just as easly been the Jews.”
Come on, where do you get off equating criticism of liberals who VOLUNTARILY engage in oppressive behavior in the voting booth and elsewhere with racist daemonization of an ethnic group?
Peter Ashby @ 145
The Nez Perce was not a national myth. Don’t confuse reality with myth, even if you had intended otherwise; there’s a good chap.
Chuck Norris says in his worldnutdaily column that our forefathers only found tariffs on incoming goods as the only acceptable tax. Where were his complaints during the Bush administration when all the “free trade” acts were passed?
Boy, these people take stupidity to new heights!
In 1869 the Supreme Court decision in Texas v White (74 U.S. 700) said that states do not have the right to secede.
I’m sittin’ in a coffee shop in California, lookin’ around, trying to see something that would be worse if Texas was not a part of the United States . . . I can’t see anything.
I’ve been here, and it was not a pleasant experience. Aside from Austin (which is liberal only by Texas standards), the whole damned place is a boat anchor holding back human progress in every way.
Imagine an independent Texas . . . what natural resources would they have? A large ignorant population doesn’t count. They’d sink into third-world status in a decade.
Holbach,
Proof that you could be an atheist and still be a bigoted moron.
frog,
Not only that but he also uses African American, as can be seen from the following quotes:
Oh, and he also had that song Barack The Magic Negro.
Why the mainstream media has mostly ignored this, I don’t know.
“If the Scots (or even the Welsh or even Cornish) voted for independence, I wouldn’t think it reasonable to insist they remain British against their will.”
It seems like you had a problem with Ireland, though.
That is so easy. When the demogogues gain power, they simply kill all of their chosen scapegoats. Stalin, Mao, the German guy, Pol Pot, the Taliban, just killed and killed until they ran out of victims.
The Texas Taliban would have a tough choice. They have so many people to hate. Gays, scientists, Democrats, atheists, Northerners, so many people to hate and kill, so little time.
Boy you ‘Mericans sure do have nasty tempers.
Chimp, I’m having trouble with this thread too, it really looks like the left counterpart to FreeRepublic without the guns. The division between left and right in your country is extremely …uh … extreme, for lack of a better word.
Everybody is stupid about something. Every locale has stupid people. Stupid people say stupid things. And sometimes stupid people saying stupid things need to be reminded that what they are saying is stupid, no matter what side of the aisle they’re on.
Feynmaniac @ 153
Are you just feigning at being a maniac, or are you venting your pathetic spleen for the supposed downtrodden by calling others bigoted if they have the gumption to say it like it is? Have any others you want to defend with your wimpy wining? No more feigning, and stop the maniacal wimpering.
Eh. I gave up trying to remind them that they’re being stupid, personally. Clearly, dropping to their level of (heh) ‘elevated’ and ‘progressive’ discourse is what’s needed.
Kill the northerners!
This might just be the motivation I need to join the Marines! It would be alot of fun reacquiring the asshole of America by force.
Holbach @#157
Someone needs their bottle and a nap. Or a gift card for Hot Topic.
Holbach @#157
Also, way to go at not knowing Feynman. Congratulations.
“This might just be the motivation I need to join the Marines! It would be alot of fun reacquiring the asshole of America by force.”
You people are being obscene. You people calling for secession sound like Stephen Fowler. Disgusting. Violent idiots, looking for the first thing it’s “ok” to vent your contempt toward. You make me fucking sick.
I would have thought that you might have some support for those of us who are down here trying to work to make our society better, to try and get the creationists out of the schools, to try and bring some kind of reason. For what? You are nothing but the retarded bigots you pretend to hate. You take the first opportunity to spill your disgusing bile over a geographic area. You know who you sound like!? You sound like all the right wing nuts saying we ought to just nuke Iraq.
I can’t believe that people are actually supporting his comments. Regardless of what side of the aisle you support, his comment are basically treason like stated above. People are too caught up in political party labels and are forgetting that we are all part of the same country. If one party fails so does the other and vice versa. If I was in Texas I would be completely ashamed and embarrassed about my state/governor now. Here is a look at how the media covered these comments:
http://www.newsy.com/videos/don_t_mess_with_texas/
“You sound like all the right wing nuts saying we ought to just nuke Iraq.” Um no lol. Do you remember the last time States declared secession? This is your own governor here. If you can’t keep your own society under control then the rest of us are obligated to step in.
At #46, Desert Son wrote:
Well, if you, as a voting population, had been consistently
They’ve looked reality right in the face and said, “Hell, no!”
Just now? I’ve been ashamed of my governor and state representatives since I first grew curious about politics.
The folks here show me that they’re no better, though, which is pretty hilarious, all told.
@Tom
Ah yes the Irish. I had an English colleague once, very nice chap, fellow scientist, very rational etc, etc. However he once opined in all seriousness to me that it was right for the English to conquer Ireland because a few of the Irish used to raid across the Irish sea.
As I have been saying, National Myths are interesting things, but they don’t have to relate to reality or especially morality. Here in Scotland we have what is known as the Braveheart Tendency who, amongst other things, will tell you that the battle of Culloden was about Scottish independence. This being despite there being more Scots on the Government side than the Jacobite one and Charlie not being interested in ruling only England (and Wales and Ireland). Then there is the tendency to forget that Scotland was an enthusiastic partner in the Empire, partly it being expedient to allow the English to bear the guilt for it . . .
Some countries do try and regularise their history and right past wrongs. New Zealand springs to mind especially compared to our cousins across the Tasman Sea who I hear are putting Phar Lap and Russell Crowe on their stamps, next they will be claiming that Crowded House were an Aussie band and that they invented pavlova. Murky waters, murky waters.
How about “Nuke the Red States!”?
Texas is diverse and not without many good qualities. Perry is Bush’s crony and all things Bush are tainted with NeoCon jingoistism and Texas braggadocio, unfortunately that is the pervasive ideology held by a (slim) majority of Texans. We may describe them as “salt of the earth”, but what were really saying is they’re basically well mannered people with a propensity for racism, religious zeal and xenophobia but will offer you a glass of iced tea or a col’beer at the drop of a hat.
I’ve been trying to improve “my society” since I was of legal age to vote. It isn’t “my problem” alone, and your behavior is inexcusble by any stretch of you bigoted imagination. You are no better than my governor, and no, I didn’t vote for him but thanks for blaming me for that.
Thanks for being of no help to us down here. Thanks for figuring we “deserve” to be run by religotards. Thanks for nothing. And yes, you do sound exactly like that. Perry is wrong, so call him on it. Don’t blame all of us. You are a geocentric idiot and there’s a high probability there’s enough garbage in your own state or country that you oughtn’t to be spouting off like a right-wing extremist.
I wonder how many of those Texas oil companies would stay in bidnez if they did not have the US armed forces to keep their overseas oil fields open.
Oh that’s cute. I’m gonna presume that you’re either being very sarcastic or I’ll go out on a limb and presume that you’re never been in combat.
jingoistism?!!! uh that’s supposed to be “jingoism”.
Celtic Evolution at #33 wrote:
I think it’s part of the same mindset that causes the US Christians to consistently bewail their status as a persecuted minority.
Tom @154″It seems like you had a problem with Ireland, though.”
No I didn’t. I was using examples of live independence movements, which don’t exist anywhere in Ireland (well barely, there is an NI independence movement but they are a total fringe thing and just didn’t come to mind).
If you are talking about NI joining the Republic, I sincerely hope they do so (on the wishes of the people there) sometime soon. It would obviously be better for everyone.
If, by “you”, you intended to blame me for my countrymen’s previous attempts to deny Ireland self-government, fuck you and the horse you rode in on; that wasn’t me.
Hmm. I say let them. Then the remaining states can set import/export tariffs on them, equal to the taxes we lost, and see how they like to pay them “without” any rights to complain. lol
Hey, I was born and raised in Texas and, until Rick Perry made Texans look even worse than GWB did, still considered myself a Texan. I don’t blame Texans for believing the myth that they can still form their own nation, but it is fantasy — and treason indeed — to speak seriously of leaving the Union.
In any case, do you really think the USA would have let any of the former CSA states retain the right to secede when their constitutions were rewritten by the “Radical Republicans” (!) during Reconstruction?
It is amazing to me that “the party of Lincoln”, who fought to preserve the Union, is now leading the charge to destroy it through secession. (Not just in Texas — remember Sarah Palin’s husband and the Alaska Independence Party?)
Sedition, actually. It’s interesting how they would reap the benefits of being a part of the U.S., and then turn around and say they want to secede. I’m tempted to say, “Let them.” Hilarity would certainly ensue.
Andre:
“Just now? I’ve been ashamed of my governor and state representatives since I first grew curious about politics.
The folks here show me that they’re no better, though, which is pretty hilarious, all told.”
You’ve said it much better than me. I’ve lost my patience. I’m ashamed of Perry, and never wanted him in office. That doesn’t mean that internet tough guy fantasies about violently re-claiming people are ok. I wish I could find it that funny, but it really isn’t to me. I’m the sort of person who has the values I do because I care about people. It’s hard for me to relate to those who don’t.
Just now getting back to this thread. Seems the temperature’s increased.
Fair enough. I can understand that many are tired of the idiocy emergent in Texas on occasion.
This is my last post in this thread. I don’t imagine I’ll convince anyone to change his or her feeling on Texas, so there’s little sense in me continuing to request perspective.
But I did want to reassure some of those who have posted from Texas that secession is not in the offing. Perry is posing. He’s staring down the barrel of not being in office anymore once Hutchison makes a run for the governorship, and he’s worried. To quote a source funnier than I’ll ever be:
“Can’t you see this is the last act of a desperate man?”
“We don’t care if it’s the first act of Henry V! We’re leavin’.”
–Blazing Saddles
In addition to the fact that Perry’s trying to be loud (he’s learned well at the feet of his reactionary masters) for the sake of the attention (at some point in politics, negative publicity is better than no publicity), I don’t think a great portion of the population of Texas, for all its Biblical adherence and self-congratulatory back-patting, would endorse secession.
Many in Texas are proud to be citizens of the United States. I know I am. I love this country so much that I’d like to see it change for the better, and seek to repair those things it has done wrong. I’m trying to cultivate the same attitude about the state I once again call home, having lived at various times in Maine, Illinois, and Scotland (it wasn’t all roses in those places, either, but then you probably knew that).
Furthermore, I think many would laugh at the idea of secession. Sure, there’s enough fringe to make a loud noise when Foot-in-Mouth Perry says something stupid like “mumble, mumble, secession, mumble, independence, mumble, pay attention to me, mumble.” I think the larger portion of the population would end up saying something like, “You mean I have to get a passport to go to the football game against O.U.? Like hell! We’re stayin’ in the Union!”
I hope that what I’m conveying from Texas is exasperation at its moments of foolishness, celebration of some of the things that make it great, a sense of self-reflective humor to offset the good-ol’-boy back-slapping that gets handed out like plastic beads at Mardi Gras, and a little bit of effort to change things for the better.
To that end, I’m going to put my money where my mouth is. I’m making a donation to the Texas Freedom Network (you can learn more about them at http://www.tfn.org/site/PageServer) who have done a great deal to combat the reactionary superstition rampant in Texas politics, especially as regards to science standards in public education, which as some have observed in this thread, have consequences that reach beyond Texas.
There must be numerous other organizations, throughout the United States, and the world, whose aims are similar. For those of you who remain disgusted with Texas, I would simply encourage you to find that which you would most like to change about where you live, and make some effort toward that goal in the next year.
With no malice whatsoever, I’ll see y’all in other threads.
No kings,
Robert
Completely understandable, blueelm. I have a lot of friends who are like you in that way. Might be a good time to close the comment thread and let ’em slap each other on the ass for a bit. Grab a cup of coffee and find a place to relax, or a good spot to have a rational discussion, you probably won’t find one here.
I don’t like it, but I have no problem with dropping to the ambient stupidity of the room. I live with fundies, you get to learn how to deal with irrational people and excessive tribalism after a while.
I presume that you meant to write something like: “The 1st Armored Division and the 1st Cavalry Division are currently based in Texas.” If we’re going to say that Texas “is home” to these two divisions, then we should keep in mind that it is home to them right now. Army units get moved around (e.g., the 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne) used to be at Fort Bragg in NC. It’s now in KY at Fort Campbell.). So it isn’t like Texas really can claim the 1st AD or the 1st Cav as something inherently Texas.
Also, I don’t have a feathered theropod in this
fightthread, but I am curious as to how these two divisions being currently based in Texas relates to the “Don’t Mess with Texas” mentality. These are active duty divisions. This isn’t the TX Guard. These units are populated by soldiers from all over the country; not just Texans. Not only that, but these units aren’t deployed by the Governor of Texas. They would be on the other side if Texas decided to do something foolish in a military sense*.*We can ignore the fact that whatever happened in this little hypothetical scenario wouldn’t likely involved the 1st AD anyway. It’s an Armored Division. The US Government’s response to this little rebellion would likely be swift. I don’t think the 1st AD could get a single battalion mobilized fast enough to play a part.
It’s an easy fix, just move all the Texas teabaggers/anti-evolutionists to a 2 mile swath of land stretching from the gulf along the Rio Grande to El Paso and adjust the border for New Texas accordingly. They can get their jollies as a sovereign nation and patrol the border to their racist hearts’ content. Now, how do we fix Oklahoma’s idiocy problem?
@#182
Problem. Big Bend National Park is along a good stretch of that. It’s -damn- pretty, you know?
Blueelm:
What you’re missing is a sense of humor, that’s all. You’re taking all this waaaaay too seriously. Where hyperbole and facetiousness abound, those who are thin skinned should find somewhere else to be. – signed, fourth generation Texan, still in Texas.
The thing with the facetiousness is that some of it -in’t- hyperbole and facetiousness. It still falls under the purview of Poe’s Law.
Hell, I know people with German-only-speaking grandmothers here in Texas who say it’s 100% unAmerican to be in America and not speak English. Naturally, this doesn’t hold true for their grandmothers, but people honestly have little ability to hold the mirror up to themselves before engaging in stupidity.
Holbach,
The problem is you aren’t saying it how it is. You unfairly dismissed an entire people as uncivilized:
You also wrote:
As if conquest of Canada and the United States was entirely peaceful.
Finally,
Latin America is doing many things the United States can’t. Brazil is moving away from fossil fuels to ethanol. Bolivia elected an indigenous President and saw levels of citizen participation in government that you can’t even dream of in the US.
Of course the region has many problems. Among them the disastrous effects of US intervention that you dismissed. However, to simply label an entire region as having a “propensity for crime and social breakdown” is ignorant. If you actually visited (in fact, many Americans go on vacation there to enjoy the “horrible climate”) it might open your eyes. Of course you have already made it known that you have no intentions of doing so.
¡Hasta luego!
A few comments,
1) It’s been pointed out already, but Texas definitely does not, and has not had the “right” to secede. That is an old myth that pops up periodically. It is contained nowhere in the original annexation agreement. The potential to create up to 5 total states out of Texas was included.
2) I can quite honestly say that my opinion of Texas is truly quite low. I was happy to see the sign letting me know that I had arrived in Oklahoma. Anyone who has been to Oklahoma will recognize that this is a dire insult to Texas. BUT, anyone who is talking about “let them go,” or boasting about a second Civil War, is truly talking out their ass and really needs to grab their shoulders and pull really hard before their head becomes permanently affixed there in.
Africangenesis:
Come on, where do you get off equating criticism of liberals who VOLUNTARILY engage in oppressive behavior in the voting booth and elsewhere with racist daemonization of an ethnic group?
You’re really slinging the stupid today aren’t you? First, how can anyone who isn’t a complete ideologue make such a claim? What the hell do you even mean by “oppressive behavior in the voting booth?” In addition, you’re completely ignoring the numerous racist statements made by Limbaugh and those of his ilk for twenty years or more.
Finally, your point about Mexico is patently silly. If I were to accept your argument, then you could also argue that the US would then have the valid right to enter, conquer, and occupy any country that was in the midst of internal turmoil. That England, France, etc., would have had every right to do so during the American Civil War, and that realistically any claim of national integrity is void the instant a stronger country wishes it to be so. Let’s party like it’s 1499!
blueelm you need to learn the basic tenants of logical fallacies. Oh and a sense of humor goes along way too.
Andre:
True, we’re always blind to our own vices and failings. I recently ended a friendship with a brilliantly talented woman here after reading her blog and her conservative Palin lovin’views as well as her criticism of liberals.
I come from a long line of religiotards (was once one myself) and married into a family of religiotards. My wife and I are the only degreed members out of our direct family lines, a few second cousins have degrees on both sides but no first cousins completed college. I have friends of all classes, creeds & races and still am shocked when I hear racist bullshit. The strangest being friends of Mexican descent who are appalled when a working class Latino automatically speaks to them in Spanish. Western culture has taught many people to become self-hating because of racial, non-religious and sexual identity.
As Roger Waters said, “give any one species too much rope and they’ll fuck it up.” You just have to pick your battles and learn to laugh and know when someone’s just yanking your chain.
Treason? No. Sedition? Yes.
I’m down here in Texas, San Antonio, to be exact. I don’t know what I can add to what’s been said here. I have my own theory, as someone who’s lived here most of my life. But I don’t know if it’s been studied or not. Namely, that the massive interstate migration this state experienced, starting in the 70s, has had an impact that is far from positive.
And don’t get me started on the roads.
I might have to vote in the Republican primary to make sure KBH gets the Republican nod for governor. I’ve never been a huge fan of hers, but I do know she’s not a complete moron.
BTW, I happen to love Mexico and Mexican people. The government is hopelessly corrupt, drug cartels have made areas too treacherous to visit and there are heartbreaking areas of poverty but there is much to love and admire about Mexico and the people from there.
-signed, Usually Misanthropic
Kinky is rumored to run as a democrat next time. I sort of wish he’d stick to singing and mystery writing.
(Yay, San Antonio)
Hell, I know people with German-only-speaking grandmothers here in Texas who say it’s 100% unAmerican to be in America and not speak English.
Yeah, but does Oma do the Chicken Dance? ;)
I moved here from my “ancestral” home land of East Texas.
Tenth generation Texan here. :)
Yeah, every Octoberfest in Gruene. Auch! Der Schlitterbahn!
Aquaria:
Nacogdoches?
There are so many articulate and thoughtful responses to the people claiming that this crowd is “extreme” and “bigoted” for venting its spleen, but for some reason the first one that wants to come to my fingertips is “meh, fuck you.”
Really.
It’s so self-evident as to be nearly absurd that 99.9% of the “LET EM GO!” posts are a combination of spleen-venting and humour that the self-righteous “gosh! you’re so bigoted!” responses don’t sound rational or enlightened, but rather more like condescending posturing. Get the fuck over yourselves. When the reactionaries that spew their filth throughout the country *every single day* take their stupidity to new heights and teeter on the verge of implosion, yes, we have the right to mock. And if that mockery isn’t entirely thoughtful and reasoned-out that’s because it’s mockery, not a public policy statement.
My public policy statement is: “We must do our best to encourage and fund the bastions of rational thought and progress still doing battle for the future of Texas.”
My frightened-response-at-the-level-of-idiocy-spilling-over-into-mockery statement is: “Fuck ’em, let ’em go.”
If you’re so tone-deaf as to fail to perceive the distinction between the two, you have my pity. If you do perceive it, then cut out your holier-than-thou bullshit.
Feynmaniac @ 186
When you discuss these opinions, it is never a blanket condemnation of a whole country or people. This should be understood and never be misconstrued or misinterpreted as the 100% stigmatising of those countries or people. Of course there are quality people in those countries who have contributed to the betterment of their societies, and whose ideas have benefitted other societies beyond their borders, and which has been recognized and applauded, but this does not detract from the negative publicity that the bad element imposes on the national image and in international opinion. The stigma of United States intervention has been overworked to the point that the history of it just does not outweigh the current societal mess. We know it’s history and after effects, and to history it should be remandedto and moved on. We cannot undo history and should be concerned with making history here and now. The past is past. What I have described may sound unkind and perhaps a little discriminate, but it is an honest opinion offered in the light of current events and should not be sugared over. From a natural history standpoint, I know that Latin America in general, and Mexico and Cuba in particular, are beautiful countries, but I am more concerned with the human element causing me harm than I am with the natural elements. I’ll leave it at that, and say
See you later, as I am proud of my native language.
Josh #181
The 1st Cav is also an armored division.
As a furriner, I’m somewhat puzzled as to who’s having fun riffing off the silliness and who’s actually serious. So I’m just going to assume everyone’s joking.
Rev, this approach might perhaps be better for your blood pressure?? Those caps were a worry, you might have an aneurysm. Calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean. (But don’t worry, I do understand your point.)
Heh – there used to be a cattleranch in Australia that was slightly larger than the state of Texas.
(Note past tense: it got broken up into about a dozen ranches during the ’80s)
Yep, that’s true. I omitted them in that statement because of the 1/227th Aviation Regiment, which can definitely get up and ready and put Apaches on the objective fast enough to play a part in anything that happens in state.
Um RobDW, last time I checked, Texas was a state not a continent. Texas has 24,000,000 people, Australia -21,000,000 – 3 million less I guess because of box jellyfish, trap door spiders and those damned dropbears.
Africangenesis
>Come on, where do you get >off equating criticism of >liberals ………….
it is easy try it, just substitute any word you would like anyone that will get your target audience inflamed anything thing will work and it just about as rational. The point is to have a “them” that is responsible for all the crap that the target is encouraged not to like what ever it is makes no difference. Then you can be the leader and have the power. It is not necessary for it to be real or make sense the target audience just needs to think it does for long enough to get the power, to make the sale after that it is too late.
that is the point about the quote of making your own reality earlier in this thread.
it works for a while but it is a dangerous activity to be relied on, reality has away of biting you on the ass.
Please note that Texas is the only State with a legal right to
secede from the Union . (Reference the Texas-American Annexation
Treaty of 1848.)
We Texans love y’all. We’ll miss you too.
**_Here is what can happen_**
1: When Texas secedes from the Union .
2: George W. Bush will become the President of the Republic of Texas .
You might not think that he talks too pretty, but we haven’t had
another terrorist attack, and the economy was fine until the effects
of the Democrats lowering the qualifications for home loans came to roost.
So what does Texas have to do to survive as a Republic?
1. NASA is just south of Houston , Texas . We will control the space
industry.
2. We refine over 85% of the gasoline in the United States .
3. Defense Industry — we have over 65% of it. The term “Don’t mess
With Texas ,” will take on a whole new meaning.
4. Oil – we can supply all the oil that the Republic of Texas will
need for the next 300 years. What will the other states do? Gee,
We don’t know. Why not ask Obama?
5. Natural Gas – again we have all we need for the next 400 years, and it’s too bad about
those Northern States. John Kerry and Al Gore will have to figure
out a way to keep them warm….
6. Computer Industry – we lead the nation in producing computer chips
and communications equipment -small companies like Texas
Instruments, Dell Computer, EDS, Raytheon, National Semiconductor,
Motorola, Intel, AMD, Atmel, Applied Materials, Ball Misconduct,
Dallas Semiconductor, Norte l, Alcatel, etc, etc. The list goes on and on.
7. Medical Care – We have the research centers for cancer research,
The best burn centers and the top trauma units in the world, as well as,
other large health centers. The Houston Medical Center alone
employs over 65,000 people.
8. We have enough colleges to keep us getting smarter: University of
Texas, Texas AM, Texas Tech, Texas Christian, Rice, SMU,
University of Dallas , University of Houston , Baylor, UNT
( University of North Texas ), Texas Women’s University, etc.
Ivy grows better in the South anyway.
9. We have an intelligent and energetic work force, and it isn’t
restricted by a bunch of unions. Here in Texas , it’s a Right to Work
State and, therefore, it’s every man and woman for themselves.
We just go out and get the job done. And if we don’t like the way one
company operates, we get a job somewhere else.
10. We have essential control of the paper, plastics and insurance
industries, etc.
11. In case of a foreign invasion, we have the Texas National Guard,
The Texas Air National Guard and several military bases. We don’t
have an Army, but since everybody down here has at least six rifles
and a pile of ammo, we can raise an Army in 24 hours if we need one.
If the situation really gets bad, we can always call the Department
of Public Safety and ask them to send over the Texas Rangers.
12. We are totally self-sufficient in beef, poultry, hogs and
several types of grain, fruit and vegetables, and let’s not forget
seafood from the Gulf. Also, everybody down here knows how
to cook them so that they taste good. Don’t need any food.
13. Three of the ten largest cities in the United States , and
twenty-three of the 100 largest cities in the United States , are
located in Texas . And Texas also has more land than California,
New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii,
Massachusetts, Maryland, Rhode Island and Vermont combined.
>
14. Trade: Three of the ten largest ports in the United States are
located in Texas .
15. We also manufacture cars down here, but we don’t need to.
You see, nothing rusts in Texas , so our vehicles stay beautiful
and run well for decades.
This just names a few of the items that will keep the Republic of
Texas in good shape. There isn’t a thing out there that we need
and don’t have.
*Now to the rest of the United States under President Obama: *
Since you won’t have the refineries to get gas for your cars, only
President Obama will be able to drive around in his big 9 mpg SUV.
The rest of the United States will have to walk or ride bikes.
You won’t have any TV as the Space Center in Houston will cut off
satellite communications.
You won’t have any natural gas to heat your homes, but since
Mr. Obama has predicted global warming, you will not need the gas
as long as you survive the 2,000 years it will take to get enough heat
from Global Warming.
**Signed, The People of Texas **
P.S. This is not a threatening letter – just a note to give you
something to think about!
SLEEP WELL TONIGHT, THE EYES OF TEXAS ARE UPON YOU!!
I don’t have time to wade through all 200+ comments here, & I hope that I am echoing other people who love Texas.
We’re not all morons. Even most of my Republican relatives refer to Perry as “Governor Goodhair.” (Yes, we got the name from the sorely missed Molly Ivens.) I am continually embarrassed by Perry, our State Board of Education (I’m a teacher), John Cornyn, the Bush family, Chuck Norris, & hundreds of other loudmouths.
Please don’t think that all of us are like them. We tend to be friendly and welcoming to strangers here. I’ve met tourists who were astounded at how nice we are to folks everywhere.
I’m just tired of guys like Perry making the rest of the world think that we’re all uneducated fools here. So sorry if I sound defeated, but sometimes I really wish that some of this wackos would stand in traffic or something.
Uh Lone Star FAIL.
(NASA starts with “National”, we don’t get to keep all these “bidnesses” just because their located on Texas soil, and the right to secede has been debunked already) As a fellow Texan I can tell you that Texas jingoism is tiresome. Go blow Guv. Perry if you’ve got such a hard on for the rethuglican party.
@”lonestar”
one answer to all of your points:
California.
bye now.
Before any of the Republidrones here start calling me a Yankee transplant, my ancestors have been here since around 1832 (3 years before the Texas Revolution), & my wife’s got here around 1830.
I also teach Texas History, so I’m somewhat familiar with our story.
“I think Quebec should secede from the United States, too!
…What? Stop staring.”
I think Alberta should secede from the United States!
Ahem, sorry, Albertan wingnuts have me riled.
Lone Star #205
Please note that you’re full of shit about this non-existent right.
As an atheist living in Austin, I would love to see Perry beaten for the treason he spewed.
But, as it turns out, the America-loving, gun-toting, flag-waving “real Americans” of this state only TALK a big game. They talk about the necessity of guns to defend their homes and their countries, then stand idly by while someone advocates tearing their country apart. They bellow the National Anthem and drape themselves in the flag, then cheer when their elected representative basically spits on our country.
I’m disgusted. Utterly. Had I been out teabagging and heard it myself I like to think that I would have yelled something choice. Instead I was just stuck in the nasty traffic caused by their big teabagging party. Austin is pretty decent overall, but damn I hate this state sometimes.
I’ve read with interest this thread and have several points to add that may or may not be of interest to others…but it can offer a “way out of the woods” for the repetitive secede or see ya analogies offered by many here. And perhaps broaden some horizons.
First, there are alternatives to archaic thoughts regarding institutions of government utilizing something called critical systems heuristics. If you are unfamiliar with it, I invite you to read about it from this gentleman Werner Ulrich and follow the links provided there. Very interesting!
Second, to understand how we got into this mess in the first place, I’d like to offer up Thorstein Veblen. Read especially Theory of the Leisure Class which I find very insightful given that Veblen was an early believer in evolution. Stand warned about his use of language, however…precise but repetitive and structured oddly by today’s standards.
Finally, I’ll mention Wittgenstein who I recall had some interesting things to say about boundaries (like that which surrounds Texas) and I think he said to the effect, to understand boundaries, one must understand what is being bound and what lies beyond those boundaries. Cheers!
Sorry about the bad Veblen link above. Here it is. Pesky quotation marks!
I think this guy said it best (way back in 2004) http://www.fuckthesouth.com/
Dogmeatib,
“What the hell do you even mean by “oppressive behavior in the voting booth?” In addition, you’re completely ignoring the numerous racist statements made by Limbaugh and those of his ilk for twenty years or more.”
How are Rush’s few allegedly racist statements relevant to his criticism of liberals?
It is entirely possible to engage in oppresive behavior in the voting booth, in fact, the anonymity seems to make it more likely. It goes far beyond just voting for politicians promising oneself more benefits at the expense of other taxpayers. There are people who purposely vote for politicians who support the mass-murdering FDA, the war on recreational drugs, mandatory public service (yes, even conscription), compulsory education, etc. It goes on and on. Liberals are especially prone to being in favor on gun control, except when it comes to oppressive government guns on their fellow citizens.
“If I were to accept your argument, then you could also argue that the US would then have the valid right to enter, conquer, and occupy any country that was in the midst of internal turmoil.”
You are overgeneralizing. Recall that inner turmoil of Mexico did not result in a democracy, but in a dictatorship. You don’t need a “right” to enter a “country” that is a dictatorship, because you have every bit as much right to oppress that country as the dictator does, which is none at all. The dictator didn’t need the right and neither did the US. I’ve heard your same arguments from those liberals who had so much respect for Saddam’s sovereign rights and the UN that somehow magically blessed them.
What elevated Mexico to the status of “country” at that time? Were we supposed to assume that just because it had been under Spain’s thumb, and then under Santa Anna’s thumb, that it would someday be under some other person of pure blood spanish descent’s thumb again? Surely if the United States were going to treat Mexico as a territory that at some point could democratically enter the union with full citizenship, it would have more of any kind of rational right to take control of Mexico than the subsequent dictators did. I agree that the US purchase was illegitimate, but only because there was no legitimate “owner” of the lands. The US should not have participated in the fiction. Unfortunately, the US entered Mexico with no more honerable intent than the various generals who were vying for the prize, but at least the territories that came under US governance weren’t subjected to the subsuquent dictatorships.
@215: Too funny! And, unfortunately, too true. But don’t you make tax-deductible donations to the unfortunate and needy?
Why does Chuck Norris hate America? Treason violates the 11th point of the Code of Ethics of Chun Kuk Do, the martial art founded by…Chuck Norris.
You don’t need a “right” to enter a “country” that is a dictatorship, because you have every bit as much right to oppress that country as the dictator does, which is none at all.
??
that’s some seriously fucked up logic.
so, if the US is instrumental in supporting a dictatatorial government in a given country, say, Panama…
We have then every right to now invade same country to remove puppet dictator?
Oh, that’s right, that’s exactly what we did do.
I can’t say there aren’t those who wouldn’t agree with your “logic”, fucked up as it is.
Ichythyic,
Being f***ed up, is a far less serious criticism of logic than violating the law of non-contradiction.
Santa Anna was a dictator long before US invaded, and would be again after the US left, several Mexican states had declared independence and were in rebellion.
Presumably your point about Panama is an attempt a reductio ad absurdem, but the removal of the dictator can be right, even if past support of him was wrong or ill-advised. While I am hesitant to argue for the existance of a right to liberate, there also doesn’t seem to be any moral prohibition against coming to the aid of the oppressed.
just because you can do something and get away with it does not mean you should or that it is good.
the new world was settled by conquest it was not given to the European settlers by any god. We invaded mexico and took what we wanted and even payed for it. that makes it OK?
the vainer of democracy seems kind of thin. the rule of law only applies when you agree with the outcome if not use force.
people sure like to fight.
My parents went to this event, and were SO excited. *facepalm*
@220– So, your saying that during our civil war if we had been attacked by , say France, they would not be guilty of invading a soveregn nation because we were in an internal struggle for power( I’m sure the North at the time were percieved as a dictator by the Confederate States) ? Lone Star @ # 205 there are so many stupid oversights and outright exaggerations in your post I won’t waste my time with most of them , but remember that many if not most of your items on the list were developed with federal aid and as such they still own your ass. Oh, and the fortune 500 companies? They would start to treat your labor force like a third world maquiladora and your standard of living would plummet. Think a Singapore like scenario. Remember , you’re a right to work state.
Yes, Rick Perry is an idiot.
That notwithstanding, there is nothing wrong with the idea of secession – it is not treason any more than filing for divorce is an adultery.
Lone Star@#205 Oh, yeah, and you still have GW so even if I accept the legitimacy of the whole list, its still pretty much a wash ; look at what’s been done for the country for the last 8 years , right?
Aquaria: “I moved here from my “ancestral” home land of East Texas. . . . Tenth generation Texan here. :)”
I’m from Nacogdoches, still got a friggin’ huge family there. I love Austin, but Nacanowhere is home.
HOWEVER, since my beloved state has given my beloved country George W. Bush, Alberto Gonzalez, the Texas State Board of Incompetent Fuckups, and now Gov. Goodhair spouting sedition, I am in no mood to defend myself and my fellow Texans from the Freeper-style attacks going on here.
I just ask you, please, bear with us until we can get some of these fools out of office. Perry’s outclassed by Hutchinson and is trying to cling to office by sucking up to his base in the religous right. The whooshing sound you’re hearing is the mighty suckdom that is resulting from his efforts. What an asshole.
And okay, maybe just a little bit of defense: please remember that we also gave you Molly Ivins, Dan Rather, Linda Ellerbee, Bill Moyers, and Walter Cronkite. Janis Joplin, Scott Joplin, and Buddy Holly. Gene Rodenberry. Bob Wills, Roy Orbison, ZZ Top, Don Henley, and Tommy Tune. Tommy Lee Jones, Lyle Lovett, Larry McMurtry, Katharine Anne Porter, Willie Nelson, Chester Nimitz, Claire Chennault, George Strait, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Ann Richards, Horton Foote, Ornette Coleman, Tex Avery, and Lady Bird Johnson.
And we unfortunately also gave the South to the Republicans. Lyndon Baines Johnson did that, with full recognition of what he was doing and in spite of the political blow, the day he signed the Civil Rights Act. On that day he stopped being a politician and became a statesman.
I’m not saying that we’re over in the plus column yet, folks. It takes a mighty army of talent and contribution to overcome the shame of George W. Bush, and we may be paying on that debt for quite a while. Obviously Perry and some others of us are still wallowing in the mudhole that idiot created when we foolishly let him wander away from his village and into your lives.
/defense
Uncle frogy,
“the new world was settled by conquest it was not given to the European settlers by any god. We invaded mexico and took what we wanted and even payed for it. that makes it OK?”
Of course it doesn’t make it OK. Just as it wasn’t OK for the Santa Anna to take Mexico or any of the other European generals, nor was it OK for the 3rd wave of “native americans” to take the land from the first two. The European genocides of the natives was still continuing in Mexico and in the territory the after the US “purchased” it. I guess one could argue that it doesn’t matter to the natives whether it is those of spanish or angle descent that was exterminating them. It is certainly not as clean as the taking of the Iraq territory from the dictator Saddam and instituting majority rule with protections for minorities without any US territorial ambitions.
As things exist today, those states acquired by the US are certainly being governed to better benefit the residents than Mexican territory is. In fact, despite the advantages of its natural wealth, and its favorable location next to the worlds most important market, Mexico still appears to be a failed state, far out performed by more resource poor countries such as the Asian tigers.
Dr. P.
“So, your saying that during our civil war if we had been attacked by , say France, they would not be guilty of invading a soveregn nation because we were in an internal struggle for power( I’m sure the North at the time were percieved as a dictator by the Confederate States) ?”
The US and the CSA were unable to find a way of ending slavery without the loss of 500,000 lives. They had no sovereignty worthy of respect. Considering France’s treatment of its colonies, I doubt its sovereignty was worthy of respect either, so it would have taken some hubris for France to assume it could provide better governance to the oppressed people. Face it, it has taken some time for the civilizations to become civilized. Ethnic nationalists have often showed themselves to be worse at governing and protecting rather than oppressing minorities than the much maligned foreign colonial powers.
An interesting statement. I will concede that removing Saddam was a net positive. Assuming a stable democracy takes hold in Iraq (not yet assured), that will also be good. US territorial ambitions? Well, Iraq won’t be joining the US any time soon, but it will be in the US sphere of influence for a long time, as well as being the primary staging point for US troops for the foreseeable future (as the independent nation of West Germany was the primary staging point for US troops in Europe, and Japan, Korea and the Philippines the primary staging point in Asia). This is empire building, 21st century style.
Then, of course, there’s the rumours and allegations about how the primary decision makers in the invasion of Iraq, and their friends, benefited. For example, Haliburton.
Finally, though – removing a dictator and establishing a stable democracy wasn’t the reason the US invaded Iraq in the first place. The stated reason was to eliminate weapons of mass destruction – a reason that has been shown over and over to be both erroneous and a farce. If nothing else, that makes the invasion of Iraq an evil act, no matter how much good comes out of it afterwards.
Dr P @ #223, you said this above:
>They would start to treat your labor force like a third world maquiladora and your standard of living would plummet. Think a Singapore like scenario. Remember , you’re a right to work state.
which piques my interest, given that, well, I’m Singaporean.
I’m not being snarky, but I would like further elaboration of what a “Singapore like scenario” has to do with plummetting standards of living and third wold maquiladora.
Regards,
Notkieran.
@205
That’s so cute that a you think you get to keep all of that just because that’s where it is right now.
You’re just so retarded I want to give you a hug, pat you on the head, and tell you that you’re right because I feel so sorry that you’re that deluded about the importance of your state.
RobertDW#229,
You are far more optimistic about Iraq remaining a US sphere of influence than many. The main leverage that the US has with the Shiite majority appears to be the threat to leave early if they don’t sign agreements to a reasonable transition. The Kurdish minority appears more appreciative, and perhaps there is the potential for a continuing useful military presence there that will allow redeployment or reduction of some of the carrier force, although relations with Turkey complicate that alliance. Nothing appears to have been formalized yet. Empire? Not.
While very little of the unaccounted for WMD has been found, the farce was not the belief that it might have been there, but has been revealed to be the corruption of the UN and its security council by the Oil for Food program, and the resulting inability of the UN to get any “cooperation” from Saddam without an invasion force buiding on Iraq’s builders. The nature of the Saddam regime was always part of the justification for the invasion especially in US domestic politics where the right wing was never fond of the first Bush’s “New World Order” nor the abandonment of Shiite and Kurdish allies that had been encouraged to revolt during the first Gulf War that left Saddam in power. I opposed that first gulf war, since it was fought to protect the UN’s notion of the sovereign right to oppress. IMHO, Saddam had no more right to oppress Iraqi’s than he did Kuwaitis.
LMAO @205
8. We have enough colleges to keep us getting smarter
Does them colleges got English Departments?
Leigh:
(Nacanowhere, hee hee, home of the Lumberjacks; all hail Freedonia!)
You forgot Farrah Fawcett, Jaclyn Smith, Debby Allen, Beyonce Knowles, Carol Burnett, Huddie “Leadbelly” Ledbetter and “Blind Lemon” Jefferson in the entertainment business and the great Barbara Jordan for politics. I think you intentionally forgot Matthew McConaughey though. Naked bongo playing anyone? ;p
“Does them colleges got English Departments?”
Of course, but unfortunately they are more likely to be studying Nietzsche or Foucault than works written in English. I guess the founding fathers and Locke, Hobbes or Hume wrote too clearly to provide much grist for discussion and variant interpretations.
E.V.#234,
Don’t forget to mention Sissy Spacek of Quitman and Barbara Lynn and the Big Bopper of Beaumont.
Please freep the poll in the URL so that those of us who are still rational in texas do not look so bad. Thanks.
The poll is whether texas should secede from the union with 86% saying YES!
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/state&id=6765449
The URL did not post in my last message, sorry.
telamonides
Why on earth would any sane English department be studying Nietzsche, Locke, Hume or the founding fathers? You want Philosophy and History, down the hall and to the right.
English departments study literature. Shakespeare, Dickens, Melville, Hemingway, and so forth. There’s no Hobbes, but if you are lucky and get a modern-thinking English department, you might get to study Watterson.
@235
citation? I think all of those writers/philosophers are taught in Universities. As an undergrad I read Locke and Hobbes for my Epistemology class, and a fellow student was working towards a deep understanding of Hume.
Also, my point was that post #205’s
“8. We have enough colleges to keep us getting smarter”
is funny.
fixed
Holy shit.
In light of my previous comments on the stupidity of wanting any state to secede, #205 makes me want to jam a Lone Star beer can in my ear.
On a more serious note, I’ve only been to Texas once and I liked it (except the oppressively hot and dry climate). I went to Austin for the Human Behavior and Evolution Conference about 4 years ago and that town is poppin. Good music, awesome food. Two thumbs up.
How is Austin viewed by the rest of the state?
Except for the state officials working there, it is considered a hotbed of liberalism (with great music and good restaurants.)
RobertDW,
Of course Hobbes, Hume and Locke are more appropriate to other departments just as technically Nietzche and Foucault are generally classified as “philosophers”, although they are not credited with major contributions. It sounds like you are more familiar with English departments that actually study English literature, refreshing idea!
E.V.#244,
Kinsolving, Hippy Hollow and Conan’s. Mmmm, mmmm, good. Too bad that the Silver Dollar and 19 year old drinking age are gone. 8-(
Texas can also claim Lou Diamond Phillips (born in the Philippines but raised near the Naval base at Flower Bluff (Corpus Christi), Texas). Amy Acker from Angel, Bill Hootkins (“Pull up, Porkins!” in Star Wars and “It’s… safe!” in Raiders of the lost Ark), Michael Urie from Ugly Betty, a slew of Law and Order actors including Angie Harmon and Stephanie March.
Interesting note about Sissy Spacek, when her sibling was dying of leukemia she was sent to NYC to stay with her uncle and his wife who just happened to be Rip Torn and Geraldine Page. All those days she had to go from school and stay at Strasberg’s The Actor’s Studio where Auntie and Uncle taught.
Lol @ 231.
205 is not only riding the short bus, he’s completely unoriginal. That entire post is copypasta of a chain email that’s been going around for the last couple of years.
The Hill Country (Austin) is only a small part of Texas. The Panhandle is desolate prairie, East Texas is Pine Forests (The Piney Woods) South Texas is palm trees, agave andaloes, and rattlesnakes, the Gulf Coast is brown water and a wall of humidity in the summer, West Texas is a sandy, tumble weed and pump jack strewn vista with nothing to look at as far as the eye can see once you’ve passed all the mesas, the Canyon area is just that and North Central Texas (DFW) is neither pretty nor distinctly ugly – just hot and humid in the summer with McMansions strewn about in the vast urban sprawl that was once fields of mesquite trees, cedar and post oaks. There are no seguaro cacti (tall skinny cactus with “stick ’em up” arms) in Texas although the appropriated image is a totem for all things western.
Fun Fact: El Paso is Closer to Los Angeles, California than it is to Dallas, Texas.
The union does need Texas more than Texas needs the union, and the US can’t oppose self determination for Texas after strenuously supporting it for the Soviet Republics. The sollution is appeasement. Texas must be appeased, and I recommend a strategy of divide and conquer. We should pressure Texas to exercise its option to divide into 5 states. The carrot would be increased representation in the Senate and electoral college. But after that division their interests would diverge and they would never get together to secede.
My recollection of Texas, is that it is one of the states where the women actually LIKE men. I assume this will be confirmed in the birth statistics. If confirmed, the loss of Texas will also decrease the evolutionary fitness of the country. We must appease NOW!
Re the e-mail cut and paste from LoneStar:
1. this has already been addressed
2.
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Oil/idUSTRE52O5DY20090325
3. A good place for budget cuts.
4. Canada supplies more crude oil to the US than Texas produces.
5. Marcellus black shale
6. Tariffs, economic sanctions, embargoes
7. NIH, also
http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/best-hospitals/2008/07/10/best-hospitals-honor-roll.html
8. You forgot DeVry. The sports programs might feel kind of silly.
10. Wisconsin produces the most paper. California and Indiana produce a lot of plastics. How many people buy their insurance from a foreign country?
11. The military bases belong to the US government, and (as a side note) are funded by it.
12. Drought sucks, though.
13. Just think, it would have 3 of the 3 largest cities in the country of Texas if it secedes. Nifty, huh?
14. Tariffs, economic sanctions, embargoes.
I have no problem with a state wanting to secede. No point in dragging out a bad relationship, if it’s come to that.
My recollection of Texas, is that it is one of the states where the women actually LIKE men. I assume this will be confirmed in the birth statistics.
How about men actually liking women?
“In Texas, 35 percent of the women killed in 1997 were murdered by an intimate male partner, which is higher than the national average of 28 percent as reported by the FBI (Texas Council on Family Violence, 2002).”
http://www.c-spanarchives.org/congress/?q=node/77531&id=3509236
AG:
Hippie Hollow, huh? No wonder your impression of Texas women as pro male. Got baked and laid at Lake Travis, did you?
E.V., I can’t believe I forgot Barbara Jordan.
Austin and Travis County are a blue dot in a sea of red. When we moved here 10 years ago, my boss’s comment was, “Well, at least you won’t be the most liberal person in the county down there, like you are here.”
My fellow East Texans might like Chris Adams’ blog “Exquisitely Bored in Nacogdoches”. Chris, a Galveston native, writes about popular culture, especially music and movies, and posts his beautiful photographs of Texas landmarks and architecture. Well worth checking out; I’m a big fan.
This from Robert Schlesinger of US News and World Report:
Ouch. That’s gonna leave a mark.
A few more Texas stats for “Lone Star” to chew on, these from State Senator Elliot Shapleigh’s annual report on the state of the State of Texas, as quoted in James Moore’s article today on HuffPo:
Moore’s commentary:
Moore’s piece is here.
Lone Star’s stupid list has been floating around in various forms since at least the 2004 election, when George Bush was supposed to assume the presidency of the Republic of Texas in the event of a Kerry victory. Some versions also have Ross Perot becoming president of Texas. You’d think after five years somebody with a brain would finally correct that right-to-secede bullshit.
Presumably your point about Panama is an attempt a reductio ad absurdem
hardly, you fucking moron.
ever heard the name “Noriega”?
I’m sure you have, but evidently, along with the rest of US history you continually ignore in your pedantic and ignorant screeds, you must have missed the important historical bits of this, too.
I do so hope there is another “Survivor” game we play here, where your name comes up yet again.
As things exist today, those states acquired by the US are certainly being governed to better benefit the residents than Mexican territory is
wtf?
that makes no sense whatsoever, and is completely irrelevant to the issue you raised of the morality of overthrowing dictators in sovereign countries.
the US can’t oppose self determination for Texas after strenuously supporting it for the Soviet Republics.
more fucking inanity.
go away.
Ichthyic,
“I do so hope there is another “Survivor” game we play here, where your name comes up yet again.”
You know, with a little mental exercise, you might be able to keep two thoughts in your head at once, and realize that when I wrote: “removal of the dictator can be right, even if past support of him was wrong or ill-advised.”, I was referring to Noriega. I evem mentioned “Panama” in the same sentence. Demonstrating the “inanity” takes a little more work than asserting it with profanity. Yes, thinking is hard, but keep trying.
E.V.
“Hippie Hollow, huh? No wonder your impression of Texas women as pro male. Got baked and laid at Lake Travis, did you?”
Let’s just say that sometimes Texas’ “natural beauty” is not kept under wraps.
We should also add John Arthur Martinez to the Texas list.
Flisi,
“How about men actually liking women? ”
Unfortunately, Sheila Jackson’s selective citing of statistics doesn’t provide perspective. For instance, a higher proportion of assaults on females may be from domestic partners because a competing source of assaults, home invasion, is a more dangerous occupation in Texas. There is little doubt that Houston is a big city, with the usual inner city problems. Texas also discriminates against hetersexual couples by forcing common-law marriage upon them after 10 years of co-habitation. Imagine the protests that would cause if Texas was forcing licenses upon homesexuals and polygamists.
For instance, a higher proportion of assaults on females may be from domestic partners because a competing source of assaults, home invasion, is a more dangerous occupation in Texas.
Ah, ye olde “I couldn’t invade a home today, so I had to kill my wife” defense. Is this popular in Texas?
Filisi,
It is more subtle than that. There isn’t a causal relationship. Few home invasion assaults would mean that the same number of domestic partner assaults is proportionately longer. It is a numerator/denominator thing. Subtle.
Few home invasion assaults would mean that the same number of domestic partner assaults is proportionately longer. It is a numerator/denominator thing. Subtle.
I doubt that has any effect. There’s higher prevalence, as well.
http://www.silentwitness.net/states/us_map.htm
Flisi#265,
You definitely put the kabosh on that hypothesis. Texas men should appreciate those women more and kill them less. Shame.
Texas is the greatest country in the world. Until the rest of yall accept that this country is going no where. Not only would Texas better off, but it would prosper. The difference between Texas and other states is that if Mexico tried to invade Texas, every citizen would join the fight. That just the Texas way to do things. So all of you Texas haters just stop. You hate us because we are simply better.
Amazing how boring and trite boasting can be.