Someone at the Discovery Institute received a vaguely threatening email. If the writer is someone who reads this, you’ve done something disgraceful, and you should send an apology immediately; we do not threaten to silence or cause harm to the clowns of creationism. Laugh at them, dissect their arguments, explain that they are damaging education in this country…but you draw the line at intimidation and threats of personal damage. Got it?
That said, I have to also say that the DI’s reaction was amusing. This is the first time they’ve received a death threat? Overall, then, our side (with the obvious exception of this one violator) has been commendably restrained — I’ve been receiving email with that tone or worse for years now, several times a week. I wish the abusive jerk had not done this stupid thing, so that our record would be spotless.
I got a death threat for a giving a bad review on E-Bay once.
Fuckin’ eejit.
Just goes to show Hitch is right. Rejecting theism is a necessary, but not sufficient step to a better society.
The Di seems very controversial.
Anybody bets this letter is going to be in “Expelled 2: The Sequel”
Ben Stein: So your life was threatened just because you were doing research with the Discovery Institute. It seems like evolution is not only wrong , but it has fanatical zealots.
Scared DI Employee:*nods head*
Wait, how do they know it’s not some nut who’s opposed to light rail and hybrid autos?
I hope they get a warrant for this idiot’s IP and charge him with conveying a threat.
As much as I hate religion and the insane morons who perpetuate it, I would never send threatening messages in any medium as it is not in my character. That said, why didn’t the Deranged Institute have the god anti virus and threat protection system to block all threats with divine intervention? After all, they are spreading the word of their god and should be protected from earthly intervention from the mere web.
I would be really disapointed if it turned out to be a Pharyngulite. I like to think we’re a fairly normal bunch here who, whilst as diverse in our opinions and outlooks as any other group of people, are united by a love of logic and rational thought. The actions of this person are neither logical, rational or, for that matter, even vaguely intelligent.
Yes. We’ve got the evidence and the method on our side, and, in the long run, will win out. Dogma has to be imposed and enforced, and eventually resorts to violence.
I’m glad you’ve taken the time to be so explicit here, that this is uncalled for. There will always be a few ‘kooks’ on the fringe of any group who will be impervious to reasoned restraint, but I think some people step over the line because they get caught up in what they see as ‘us’ vs. ‘them’ fight.
But it’s not really about the people: we fight bad ideas, and seek to persuade, not eradicate. (I suppose that’s the nontheistic version of ‘hate the sin, love the sinner.’)
Surely their god, for whom they toil so hard, would protect them from bullets? Just like the Pope can walk the streets unprotect…
Oh. My bad.
It is very sad-if in fact the letter was not a fake.
Whether “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” was said by Voltaire or is misquote-it is a worthy motto, which I hold dear.
Yeah that’s just lame.
But i did love the fact that the article you linked to had an advert for a strip club in the margin.
FP,
You forgot Godwin.
That’s horrible. I sincerely hope they don’t have to acquire around-the-clock protection.
You know, like the protection judge that ruled against them in Dover received after he got death threats.
Lovely. Fucking assholes on both sides. “Support” like this we don’t need.
Do we know that it came from our side?
I would not put it past the IDiots/Xians to write something like this to discret us.
Just a thought.
Why am I not surprised? My initiation to this blog consisted of being told I deserve to “shiver to death in a dark alley”, among other pleasantries. The given reason was that I used the term “trailer-trash” and am therefore a “classist piece of shit”. Regrettably, this behaviour was egged on by a number of other posters.
I’ve learned there are lots of good and intelligent people on this blog. Unfortunately it also attracts the kind of spiteful lowlife that has nothing better to do with his time than revel in bile.
And here you are, reveling.
Erasmus #17
Re: Trailer Trash, must relay some girl talk; woman talking about her ex-husband’s new girlfriend,
“She is trailer trash.”
My response was, “Hey, there are some good people who live in trailers.”
Back to ex-wife, “She is Bakersfield trailer trash.”
Me, “Oh OK, that’s the real thing.”
Bada Boom
Posted by: Elliott | April 10, 2009 9:12 PM
Do we know that it came from our side?
I would not put it past the IDiots/Xians to write something like this to discret us.
Just a thought.
And what about that backwards PZ scratched into their face..?
Damn! You’re right, of course, PZ. If only I weren’t a godless atheist with no basis for my morality I might be able to feel bad for the poor
lying sacks of shit holding the US backDiscovery Institutepropaganda peddlersemployees.hhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha
wins the internet
Why haven’t you shivered to death yet? Winter’s over. You’ll have to wait until November before real shivering weather comes again.
Damn slackers, ya can’t trust them to do anything right.
@ Post 20:
Backwards PZ ftw!
At the risk of being slammed as a troll, I find that some commenters here employ more invective than is called for. As Sastra says @ 9, “Hate the sin, love the sinner,” — although that might be better reworded as “Hate the stupidity, love the cretin (well, not ‘love,’ but ‘treat with the bare minimum of politeness expected in off-line society’). The theists have nothing on their side but tradition and already discredited arguments. Why feed their persecution complex?
Besides, all the best insults are subtle ones.
There’s a difference between the sometimes venomous things people post here on the blog and a threatening email. One is venting in an area where it’s welcome to do so and the other is actively threatening another person’s safety. When I read here that someone wishes another would say have their head ripped off by an angry cephalopod I don’t assume the person really plans to go throw someone to a bunch of Humbolt squid. Sending someone a direct email though is a personal threat and disturbing even if in this case it’s not exactly a particularly clear threat.
I don’t do this on a regular basis. In any case, I was talking about only a minority, which doesn’t include you. I don’t see why you should be offended.
Noadi @ 26 — Absolutely. I didn’t mean to equate the two, just to express some slight sympathy with Erasmus, assuming he didn’t post anything hateful. Some of those theist commenters really deserve vitriol. Some of them don’t.
This could just as easily be one of their own Ilk making a threat to try an garner sympathy (donations?) and further the ‘persecution of christians’ meme.
Most of the posters here are pretty aware, and I’d bet my last quarter that none of the regulars would ever make such a stupid move. If they find out who the clown is I’d be interested to hear…inquiring minds want to know!
Death threats are bad, but this really wasn’t much of a death threat. Certainly not a credible one. And in the end all it serves to do is raise their profile. I wouldn’t send a death threat in one email, but lots of very small threats in many emails. Like “stop spreading ignorance or I will put a red sock in your whites wash.”
Re: FP @ #4: Hahahahahahaha! “Research??!” Oh, that’s rich!!
*wipes tears*
What’s your take on GNXP, the 10,000 year explosion, Pinker, etc.? It seems like there is this school of research in genes that is showing more and more human behavior comes from genes, that races have differences, etc. And it seems to combine anti-PC conservatives and more and more hard core scientists. Than we have the remnants of the Gouldian left. Now, I know that your normal battle is with the Christian right who don’t beleive in evolution. But what do you think of the ascending anti-PC types who beleive in it too much..and who are getting more and more confirmation from experiments, mDNA migration maps, etc.
Really stupid…doesn’t this person know when us “evolutionists” feel slighted, we don’t issue death threats, we ask for cameras?!
I’m not a theist, I’m as staunch an atheist as anyone here. You don’t have to be religious to get abuse on this blog. You just have to slightly disagree with the consensus opinion in a given thread, rendering yourself the “outsider”. At that point, the “lowlifes” I mentioned will smell blood. Other members sense that it’s not socially acceptable to come to the defence of the “outsider”, hence they generally don’t.
Boy, how I wish I’d said that.
(new email addy; old one imploded)
Politeness is not requisite, nor particularly well appreciated. Polite is how we conduct ourselves in front of our children so they learn to chew with their mouths closed. Polite is not the appropriate response to people whose first principles condemn the opposition to eternal suffering unless praying to the same idol.
Threats, however, are never called for and they are the antithesis of the rationalist’s position in any event. Unqualified condemnation of the threat is the only response and predictably this is the tone PZ has set here. If it were otherwise I’d cease to read these pages immediately and dismiss PZ as just another crackpot. So thanks for that. I thoroughly enjoy the razor sharp invective PZ and the majority of commenters bring here.
A good flaming is always entertaining. ;)
There doesn’t seem to have been any evidence presented that the threat (going with the assumption that it was a real one in the first place) had anything to do with the religion/creationism/IDiocy vs science/evolution/reality issue. They themselves claim that their (mislabelled) “think tank” or “research” group is only partly about IDiocy.
So the threat(s) might have had something to do with economic policy, with traffic policy or with whatever else the DI might be meddling. Has anyone got a list of their “research” and/or anything which might qualify as a genuine, original thought from the DI?
Or more likely, make ridiculous or idiotic claims.
wow teh funny is out tonight
nice
What’s your take on GNXP, the 10,000 year explosion, Pinker, etc.? It seems like there is this school of research in genes that is showing more and more human behavior comes from genes, that races have differences, etc. And it seems to combine anti-PC conservatives and more and more hard core scientists. Than we have the remnants of the Gouldian left. Now, I know that your normal battle is with the Christian right who don’t beleive in evolution. But what do you think of the ascending anti-PC types who beleive in it too much..and who are getting more and more confirmation from experiments, mDNA migration maps, etc.
Your concern is noted.
Sheesh. What wimps these DI people are. I don’t have time to list all the threats and actual violence perpetrated against fellow postal workers by customers. Had an incident today. No fun.
So the DI got a troll. So?
Maybe they should pay PZ to help them deal with it. His experience with death threats and trolls is well documented.
While we’re on quality insults… A friend of mine was giving me a hard time (all good fun joking around in college) so I looked over at her with a disdainful expression and said “May you die cold and alone in a bed full of cats” got a pretty good laugh from the group…
I wish the abusive jerk had not done this stupid thing, so that our record would be spotless.
I agree but tend to think that if the DI never got any hate mail the issue would simply never come up. Sort of like how no one sits around wondering why “pregnancy crisis centers” never get letters containing white powder labelled “anthrax”.
May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your crotch and may your arms be too short to sratch
Erasmus @ 34: Now I’ve insulted you with no intention whatever, implying you were a theist. Mea maxima culpa!
Well said PZ. Those of us who are intelligent enough to not be IDiots should also realize that threats aren’t the answer.
Huzzah! The King of Typo’s strikes again…
To wish harm on another person, e.g., ‘I wish that homophobe would slip on a wet dog turd and fall face first into the crotch of a sitting, same-sex person,’ and to actively put wet dog turds in the path of said homophobe approaching said same-sex person, are entirely different propositions. Still, sometimes I do wish.
all part of my nefarious plan
ThirtyFive Up @ 19
Would that be the Bakersfield of the book “Mean Streets”?
I personally never issue death threats unless I’m alone with the person and I’ve searched for recording/listening devices. No witness? It never happened.
I have stood here before inside the pouring rain
With the world turning circles running round my brain
I guess I’m always hoping that you’ll make this banana ripe, oh
But its my destiny to be the king of typo
Erasmus @ 34
Yes, my memory and comments serve me and your comment well.
Not cool. At the end of the day, the DI folks are just people too. Human beings.
When you threaten violence, you lose.
“Other members sense that it’s not socially acceptable to come to the defence of the “outsider”, hence they generally don’t. “
Speaking for myself, I don’t NOT because I don’t feel its socially acceptable, but rather because I just feel its pointless and boring to read someone else’s shitfight let alone wade into it and join in.
I do not know the book, “Mean Streets”, but I did find this while Googling that book name. He clearly expresses the general opinion of Bakersfield. By the way, I am a quilter and there are some excellent quilt makers in that area. They are award winners and receive some big cash prizes. I have never won a prize.
http://www.tehachapinews.com/home/Blog/samheath/21643
It would be cool if the DI read this post and told THEIR readers not to send threats either. Or, the heads of the various religious sects.
Yeah, fair enough. That’s probably the same with most posters, actually. I was being grouchily uncharitable.
You just have to slightly disagree with the consensus opinion in a given thread, rendering yourself the “outsider”.
atypical.
At that point, the “lowlifes” I mentioned will smell blood.
why should you care?
Other members sense that it’s not socially acceptable to come to the defence of the “outsider”, hence they generally don’t.
we figure you’re a big boy and can take care of yourself, more like.
are you saying you cried because some posters in a thread insulted you?
sounds like the blogosphere is not for you.
finally, DO at least try and differentiate between invective used in a blog, and personal death threats sent via email.
now then…
need a hanky?
Uh … I’m sure it is unrelated to the death threat, (which it seems all Pharyngulites disapprove of), but a liking for squid porn is not normal.
(A serious interest in biology is also not normal, howevermuch the world might benefit if it became so.)
I don’t know how you are going to have the strength to carry on all weekend Chimp.
Today is Good Friday (no beer/ pork), and then we have Easter Sunday looming (no pork/beer/whiskey/sex).
Better be careful you might just be threatened by the lawd .
Here’s some reasons I think liberals like PZ should support the Discovery Institute-
1) Discovery Institute stands up for free speech and academic freedom. Liberals love free speech
2)DI opposes censorship, which liberals also oppose
3)DI stands up for good science education and critical inquiring in the classrooms.
4)DI wants to allow people to teach controversial topics. Liberals also try to teach controversial things (same-sex marriage,sex education..) in class. You are like allies
5)DI opposes discrimination against people and promote rights in cases like that of the Cuban guy Guillermo Gonzalez . Liberals groups also oppose discrimination.
6) DI opposes tradition and dogmatism in science and encourages a diversity of views.
Whiskey bacon and the Talking Heads.
oh
I see
Actually, once you wade in, you’ll quickly develop a personal stake in the issue, and find it suddenly much more interesting.
Block qoute fail and typo.
The cootie is strong tonight.
Dembskifan,
Are you a Poe or something?
qoute…
*headdesk*
I bet you believe that Nixon was innocent also
Rather than finding something so simplistic as ‘more and more human behavior comes from genes’ The research in genes quantifying the influence genes have, and finding it is neither 0% nor 100%. (Much the same for the influence of the environment.)
It wasn’t me. I swear.
I think we should send them jelly doughnuts.
#56…..When you threaten violence, you lose.
You would have been “On the Bus” at Thoreau’s Further Festival.
Dembskifan #64 wrote:
Go ahead and speak. But if you want to be taken seriously as science, you have to do the work, and stand up to legitimate criticism. Come up with a testable theory, and do research, and get published. What is being done is not real science, but pseudoscience — just “science-y” enough to fool nonscientists.
Do not confuse secular humanists with postmodernists. “Liberal” is a broad term — and includes a lot of concepts you also find under “conservative.”
lol anonymous can do what ever the fuck they want to do (NYPA). They are justified in whatever pranks they want to pull off on an organization that seeks to drag humanity back into the Dark ages after countless refutation and civil rebuttal.
And Boston Cream doughnuts. And boxes of mini-eclairs.
The language quoted in the report is so close to the illiterate yahooistic garbage usually going in the other direction that I assume this was either a misdirected threat from some ditto head or it is a made up false report. They have been known to lie.
And bacon for dessert.
I’d say the threat is far more likely to have come from a fellow theist of a different religion or sect than from an atheist. For the most part the woo-addled seem far more intent on quibbling over the minuscule differences than uniting of the similarities – or, at least, that’s what things like the Thirty Years’ War and Northern Ireland (amongst others) would imply.
Posted by: Dembskifan | April 10, 2009
Here’s some reasons I think liberals like PZ should support the Discovery Institute-
I think we have a Poe in progress. Matt? Is this you?
1) Discovery Institute stands up for free speech and academic freedom. Liberals love free speech
We could also say the same for those advocates for the moon land hoaxers and the flat earth theory. Why knowingly teach children what is wrong. There is the issue of trust.
2)DI opposes censorship, which liberals also oppose
Trying to force a disproved theory in the classroom is not proof that one opposes censorship.
3)DI stands up for good science education and critical inquiring in the classrooms.
Saying An intelligent designer did it! is the opposite of what science is.
4)DI wants to allow people to teach controversial topics. Liberals also try to teach controversial things (same-sex marriage,sex education..) in class. You are like allies
Where does DI come down on sex ed and GLBT marriages?
5)DI opposes discrimination against people and promote rights in cases like that of the Cuban guy Guillermo Gonzalez . Liberals groups also oppose discrimination.
Once more, methinks we have a Poe here. Being against a disproved theory is not analogous to racial discrimination.
6) DI opposes tradition and dogmatism in science and encourages a diversity of views.
DI is all about embracing tradition and dogma. If DI let go of it, it would evaporate into the air.
Kseniya @ 72
Jelly donuts are too good for them. Send a box of stale crackers.
Not really. That stance is a public-relations smokescreen designed to obscure the DI’s real agenda, and to aid in its campaign to create an image of design proponents as intrepid truth-seeking crusaders going up against Big Science.
Thank you Kseniya, I think we can follow your lead and guess who it wasn’t…
It wasn’t me because there was no quoting of book and verse and wishing them to go to hell.
It wasn’t the Nerd of Redhead or Holbach, because there weren’t demands to see proof of gawd.
It wasn’t OwlMirror because none of the book and verse was in greek or coptic.
It wasn’t Janine because there wasn’t a music video attached that would pound the teeth out of the devil.
Should we check for typo’s?
Wasn’t this Pan troglodytes
It wasn’t Janine because there wasn’t a music video attached that would pound the teeth out of the devil.
Hey, not all of the music I link to is an assault to the ears.
My darling – pound the teeth out of the devil – was ment as a compliment.
It wasn’t me, either; there were no semicolons – and none of the words Americans don’t spell with a ‘u’ in them had had them added…
Holbach, ix-nay on the ale-stay ackers-cray. Trust me. It’s got to be doughnuts. ThirtyFiveUp seems to understand why.
Patricia (#83) : You really have a handle on the situation. You’d make a good detective.
It couldn’t have been me, because there were no Cyrillic characters in the letter, and at no point did the author write, “Holy crumbling shortcake!”
there wasn’t a music video attached that would pound the teeth out of the devil.
And make that devil keep on gumming ecstatically, unable to contain itself…
It would have been more interesting if the offender had signed “god, and what are you going to do about it?”
Hey dickhead where is my FINISHED?
I get worse than that weekly in my work escorting Planned Parenthood patients. The antis are anything but the “Christians” they claim to be. The irony is that in the same breath they’ll use profanity, insult a patient (or escort), and invoke god and/or Jesus. They’re absolutely stupefying.
oh so now that was racism?! you IDiots are digging yourself in deeper and deeper…
also: “free speech” != “all opinions are equally valid”
Mr. Nobody you owe me a FINISHED and I intend to collect.
Wood work squeaks and out comes the freaks!
There’s the culprit at # 94, masquerading as an idiot.
While I’m sure not of this will make sense once PZ plonks Mr. Nobody I am hell bent on making him pay up my FINISHED.
Just when I think it’s safe to stick my head up, there is that pile of shit from he who shall not be named.
I ♥ killfile. Rant as much as you like; I won’t see a word of it.
PZDUMMY @ 99
Fess up moron, and admit that you fabricated the threat so you would receive a free lobotomy in compensation.
There you go again promising my FINSIHED.
Well god damn it when do I get it?
You’ve been promising it for a while now and I think it is really rude that you haven’t paid up.
To be honest, I think this Was(Not Was) song is more to the bag of hammers’ speed.
Hey retard, why don’t you wrap yourself in a body bag and have it delivered to the Deranged Institute with a note attached; “I’m finished, and this is the result.”
Bah! Sometimes people just disappoint you. Threats? Sounds like grade-school to me.
I get death threats everyday from christians.
apparently if i don’t believe their little fairy tale i’m going to be tortured for eternity when i die instead of just rotting in the ground. and not only that – they’re going to enjoy watching it happen. should i be reporting these people also?
i’m sooooo confused!!!
Holy shit Depeche mode sucks
Do I have to be subjected to that shit to collect on my FINISHED?
Lets see how insane the mad man is. PZ, please report the number of deletions so we can see how deranged the mad man is.
Back to folding socks.
This of course makes me have to ask this question…
In light of the previous post about people who hate PZ calling him Paul Zachary does this mean that PZDUMMY loves the bearded tentacled blog owner?
Seeing that this drug train is off the tracks, OT news. I have Rachel Maddow on in the background. Remember the National Organization for Marriage? It seems the pulled their ad and is going with a new tactic, For Marriage, Two Million. Guess what the acronym is?
4M2M.
Seriously! I am dumbfounded!
Ksenyia – Thank you, yes it doesn’t take much to identify the regulars. It wasn’t Naked Bunny With a Whip, AnthonyK or KittysBitch because there was no smartass kink factor.
It wasn’t Piltdown Man, Pete Rooke or Walton because the sexual cues are missing.
And of course it wasn’t Bride of Shrek, OM – there wasn’t one damn word of olde Sluttish spoken. There was no mention what so ever of suck starting a Harley, so it wasn’t Scooter.
We’re narrowing this threat down one by one.
Good old Dennis Markuze (this even a REAL NAME?).
So…. can we or can’t we throw feces at creationists???
PZDUMMY do you own a sandwich board?
It seems I have to Kill Mother Fucking Depeche Mode yet again.
So… Christians don’t want to die?? Isn’t killing Christians like expediting their souls to heaven?? I would think they’d be lining up to drink the kool-aid so they can kick it ol’ White Beard.
Chimpy – when my computer repairman fixed my naughty machine he told me to beware of these trolls posting websites and YouTube videos because they were trying to spread viruses – is this what PZDummy is doing?
Wow, just 5 days ago PZ wrote:
I wondering if Mabus is trying to break his own record.
Let’s not get carried away here. You can’t blame the ‘Mode just because some batshit loon goes off his meds.
That’s a typo.
God Himself has a crush ON me.
There ya go sweety.
Hmmm… If I ever wrote the DI, it would be to ask them why they aren’t publishing in the peer reviewed scientific literature. But then, they tend to delete stuff that doesn’t agree with them, so it would be a waste of time. That sounds more like something PZ would get. A misdirected e-mail for PZ? Boy, that would take a real dunderhead to make that type of error.
Back to folding mocks (the Redhead did laundry).
what the fuck is that even supposed to mean…?
Janine #97
I understand that they come out at night….
Shine On Sweet Jesus!
Oh, I will pile the hate on DP. I will never forgive them for the musical dreck that is People Are People!
not as far as i can tell
Well I didn’t like them anyway, now just because of the stench I dislike them even more.
PZDUMMY: Are you aware that your pathetic little serial tantrum is actually far less powerful than the tiny plastic “page down” key on my keyboard?
Doesn’t that make you feel silly and small?
James F, nicely played! Kicking it old skool, huh?
PZDUMMY’S life must be one of bliss.
PZDUMMY do you own a sandwich board?
It isn’t a sandwich board, but this sign has quite a provenance.
And now, back to the soothing sounds of Pharyngula, brought to us by Janine.
Just to same anyone from reading that shit it’s an 8.5 on the TimeCube scale.
I kind of like the flaming middle finger it made me laugh.
basketball helmet
same = save
Oh, PZDUMMY, I am converted because I got a Crush On You!
I found this funny ass YouTube video while chasing links earlier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51A77HY2EGs
I’ve got my spine
I’ve got my Orange Crush
PZDUUMMY is Mabus/Markuse, the wacko Canadian. Don’t you have loony bins up north?
Off his meds again.
No idea what the @’s stand for. Schizophrenics often make up their own language and of course, no one else understands it. They are probably death threats in wackoese.
Lights on, nobody home
‘PZDUMMY’, well, first of all you link to a webpage with such classic lines as ‘For James Randi and Richard Dawkins…..Are these even *REAL* names?’, then decide to call yourself ‘PZDUMMY’. Well, is that a *REAL* name?
Secondly, you seem to think that certain ‘predictions’ by Nostradamus have ‘crushed’ the ‘atheist movement’, even though you have to quite savagely twist what was written by Nostradamus to fit what you claim is the fulfillment of these prophecies. Well, apart from that problem, there is also the problem that Nostradamus’ predictions don’t really have any connection with any deity or religion, so would have zero impact on atheism, even if you had irrefutable proof that the predictions came true, which you don’t.
Thirdly, you miss that many, many, many, many, many different people have similarly twisted Nostradamus’ writings to argue he predicted all sorts of things. For example, some argue this predicts 9/11:
However, read his writings straightforwardly, and you see it’s a complete mess that could be ‘interpreted’ in such a manner to mean just about anything.
Do The Crusher!
That DI threat is ringing a memory bell of one PZ might have posted. I tried a quick search and came up empty except for this thread.
Time for bed. ‘Night all.
Now, now. Let’s let up on PZ the blasphemer.
For the word of GOD sayeth thusly:
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall he surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name OF THE LORD shall be put to death Leviticus 24:16
And then the holy babble sayeth:
And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 24:17
er…what happened between verse 16 and 17? Did someone get a death threat?
This is Markuze’s real problem.
Touch Monkey
Happy Monkey
Time for a change of venue. Pandeism, anyone?
Well, enjoy your musical reminiscence; I’m off to do some set painting/building (preferably more of the former than the latter; I’m not much of a carpenter) for my upcoming theatre production.
Mabus/Markuze – seriously, get help. Or, at the very least, stay away from your PC.
What we need here is a banana sharpener
Okay Rev., I’m sorry for overwriting the other file but mabus DID promise your FINISHED again TWICE in this post so I saved it. If you don’t get it maybe you should take him to court.
Also everyone use as many CAPS as you can before he uses them all up like in the LAST post.
Janine, you know it!
We would circle and we’d circle and we’d circle to stop and consider and centered on the pavement stacked up all the trucks jacked up and our wheels in slush and orange crush in pocket and all this here county, hell, any county, it’s just like heaven here, and I was remembering and I was just in a different county and all then this whirlybird that I headed for I had my goggles pulled off; I knew it all, I knew every back road and every truck stop….
Cheer up, it’s possible the note came from a theist troll.
In any event, I may be guilty of arrogance but I never stoop to threatening. Bad form.
RevBigDumbChimp – Thanks! I’ve been pretty scared to go watch any YouTube since I got my computer back. I’m not going to look at any of PZDummy’s bullshit anyway.
Chimpy! Trying sharpening these bananas! Perhaps PZDUMMY needs to get back under the big blue sun!
I wonder if this tedious and comically illiterate PZDUMMY git can give me my FINISHED too? I think I would like one of those.
raven @ # 55: No idea what the @’s stand for.
Look at ’em sideways, head tilted leftwards: this thread’s troll is giving us all nice ASCII roses!
#169
Sweet! That’s a clip from the feel-good movie of the year!
But Patricia, I link to a lot of stuff on YouTube.
If Markuze didn’t have such a history of posting batshit insane comments, I might think that he was paid by Depeche Mode to generate a little internet excitement about them.
FFS, they’re from Basildon.
If gog existed I would have been crushed long ago it seems…
Pzdummy isn’t even passing the Turing test.
Yeah, it’s Mabus. He spammed the comment thread on the blog linked to at the top of this page with the same “content” he’s using here.
I looooooooooooooooooove the shining.
PZDUMMY sounds like you need a love song
Maybe in order to protect the ‘atheist collective’ we should learn the lessons of religious history and institute some kind of ‘Inquisition’ organisation to keep the adherents of Atheism properly in line. Red suits are in order. Horrible torture to obtain confessions in sham trials seems like a reasonable means to use in order to keep everyone civilised. What do you guys think?
Oh wait, I forgot. We aren’t a collective but a group of individuals who have reached a (mostly) common intellectual conclusion. How fortunate.
PZDUMMY is my Number One Crush
Eww! Look out Chimpy, that Dummy is after you.
A fool utterth all his mind…
Proverbs 29:11
Guard your cooties, I think he’s a pervert.
He probably doesn’t even have a FINISHED. He’s just pretending so people will think he’s cool.
Is that FINISHED like a happy ending?
#188
This is much better than love
This is
A crush story.
Chimpy, I seem to remember one episode of The Gong Show where every contestant sang that song. Did I ever waste my youth.
James, the Shining recut is sweet! I can’t wait for that one. I hear their place has a beautiful topiary garden out front.
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you
the definitive solution to the *atheist problem*
That’s nothing compared to the mouse problem.
Janine – I usually go look at everything you link to, however briefly, even if it – bashes out the devils teeth. But since I got that horrible bug, I’ve been avoiding YouTube.
Maybe this is a small town bias. Scary YouTube.
This is going to be one of those annoying threads where all the reference numbers people put into their posts will cease making sense after PZ sweeps away the garbage. I wish SciBlogs would change their software to (a) put a placeholder in for entries awaiting moderation (b) put a placeholder in for entries that have been removed. Then the freakin’ numbers wouldn’t shift around like a drunken sailor. Not that there’s anything wrong with drunken sailors, but I try not to follow them.
</rant>
Hey, if Rev gets a FINISHED, is he obligated to share? Or at least let us each hold it for a minute?
I love it! Her style reminds me of the atheist community here. She has really good parodies of God and the Holy Ghost and is unafraid to hold back and tell it like it is. She has a blog, too: http://mycapturedlife.blogspot.com
Thanks for sharing.
Jesus is yard-art. Get over it, man.
What’s up with the DUMMY, it keeps studering and puking out the same nonsense over and over…is it sane?
HELL NO it is my finished!
MINE
“Hey, if Rev gets a FINISHED, is he obligated to share? Or at least let us each hold it for a minute?”
Rev has clearly stated that he is not willing to share his FINISHED when or if he gets it. I called him a meanie but he’s selfish and if any of us want one we have to buy it ourselves.
“…is it sane?”
No. Treat it like line noise.
And we layeth the smack down upon the righteous.
Chimp: 198
I am very sane and very aware how to deal with you little shits…
the definitive solution to the *atheist problem*
@}-,-`-.@}-,-`-.@}-,-`-.@}-,-`-.@}-,-`-.
http://nostradamus.awardspace.info
@}-,-`-.@}-,-`-.@}-,-`-.@}-,-`-.@}-,-`-.
no need to respond, you little lying douche bags
how to debate an atheist:
http://bajan.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/middle-finger-of-the-apocalypse.jpg
amazing, God himself has decided to CRUSH you…
now get lost…
Damn tootin
Kseniya, truly the only flaw of the Shining recut is that other recut attempts pale in comparison!
woohoo! FINISHED for everyone
I’ll trade two FINISHED for one ORGASMIC.
I’ll take painfully unaware for 1000 alex
hey Mr. Nobody I heard about that guy who stole the plane in Canada [eh] and flew to the states and bought some gatorade. I was guessing it was you comin’ for us.
I’m puttin’ you in the loony bin eh
James F, I see your mice and give you the Mole From The Ministry.
I am absolutely loving the last line “now get lost…” when he is coming to someone else’s blog posting. Has Mabus always posted that line? I have seen them before but I just read past them.
As was said above, my Page Down/Up keys are mightier than your posts.
I am willing to bet no one will get a FINISHED, since we will have to wait for gog to deliver it, right after never.
Maybe they just have hate-mail envy and sent it to themselves?
“See, we’re being persecuted! This is how important we are! Hello? Anyone listening? It had nasty words….”
As repugnant as these types of threats are, the fact that only one has been sent means that the opponents of ID see them as ridiculous – and not very threatening.
I think PZ’s view is winning out. Talk truth to lies, and laugh at them. Actually, I’m sure the laughter is far more painful to them than the hate mail.
Regards,
David
That is fucking bullshit.
Mahna mahna
Just goes to show that every -ism has its share of violent idiots. However, if you’re going to operate a site that is in any way politically or religiously debatable, you had better grow a thick skin, because every unbalanced nut with an internet connection has an email account to go with it.
george.w
lulz
PZDUMMY, for some reason, your pumpkin is completely smashed.
Janine,
Hmmm…gotta come up with something…. Dukes of Stratosphear —> XTC —> The Ballad of Peter Pumpkinhead —> Crash Test Dummies
Totally sane
For what it’s worth.
A “sane” person who advocates religious genocide and that God uses the middle finger, all while copying and pasting the same inane insults and links?
Neaner, neaner, Rev. You wouldn’t share and now Mom is going to buy us all FINISHEDs just to spite you. Though, I bet it really means that none of us will get one, ’cause she’s forgetful and will blow us off if we press the issue when she doesn’t follow through. You should’a shared! At least then there’d be one to pass around.
Paging PZ, cleanup on aisle 2…
Maybe dum dum sent the letter.
Awesome, that and Johnny Cash singing Ghost Riders in the Sky were among my favorite bits from The Muppet Show.
Early and a very different XTC. This Is Pop.
total control of his mental faculties
Dummy Dummy pay attention Dummy here take your meds…thats it…drink all the water thats a good dummy…you’ll feel right as rain real soon, there there all those demons were’nt real after all… now just rest while I put your jacket on.
Peter Pumpkinhead! My hero! “Any kind of love is awwwwlright!”
I still think it is total fucking bullshit that everyone gets a FINISHED and I still haven’t gotten the one I was promised.
It’s unfortunate that someone with an obvious mental illness is not receiving the medicine and therapy he or she readily needs.
To the poster using the ‘PZDUMMY’ alias, I sincerely hope you do NOT harm yourself or anyone else.
There is no shame in seeking out psychological assistance and following your prescribed treatment.
Please turn of the computer and get help immediately.
Pay up my FINISHED first you welcher.
Why does David Mabus always want us to leave a blog he does not own?
Johnny Cash on Columbo. It is a gospel song. He murders his wife in this episode.
How about a bacon maple bar? Left hand column of images, third one down. Cap’N Crunch doughnut is good, but it didn’t travel too well down from Portland.
huh
And I did The Battle of Hastings
Crush My Battle Opponent’s Balls
I must be stopped, I am linking to Dethklok songs.
(sobs just a little bit)
I bet you like biscuits with mustard too
Wow. That one must be older than me! I would never have known it was them.
What no link Chimp?
This must be something Nostradamusian…either that or Dennis is having trouble with his internet/real person and/or conversation/monologue =discrimination skills.
PZDUMMY does not know the truth about 911.
I got here late. Who’s the puter tard? Is that you Korn?
If you get a Mac you won’t have this ID tautology problem. It may be a virus in your hypothalatard.
Probably what his dad always told him Sven. Its kinda sad really.
Seven Days in Sammystown.
Oh yes we do.
Oh dear. You have stumbled over The Ultimate Weapon.
WOW! pzdummy is off the rails insane! I feel really sorry for him, cause if he’d only been born a 1000 years ago he could of been a great theologian. Now he’s just a smelly guy in a tiny apartment sitting in poo-stained undies as he cuts and pastes into PZ’s site.
And, ewe! What is that stain on the front of your undies?
They turned him loose from the nervous hospital
You like them french fried pertaters?
There should be a Paypal button where you can donate money (say $5 bucks at time) for a qualified psychiatric evaluation for posters like ‘PZDUMMY’. Most of these guys are probably harmless to themselves and others, but I don’t know about some of them…?
Crazy! I’m crazy for feeling so lonely.
Agent provocateur?
Favorite Muppet Show Appearance:
“Ozzy Osborne? Boy did I open the wrong door!”
wish I could find the actual video…
Its never really been safe to have the religious types around has it?
Oh, it’s probably just more propaganda. The DI, without providing relevant details, insinuates that the threats probably have something to do with their ID(iot) work. My BS alarms are all ringing about that incident – there’s probably something the DI guy knows that he’s not telling – perhaps not even telling to the police.
I doubt it’s a godless dude making the threats – we’ll see (if ever). There are some real whack-jobs out there – anyone remember Malvo? How about any number of other whack-jobs who’ve featured on the news in the past few decades.
How about a littleTherapy for “PZD”?
Mandrake @ #270 mentioned Ozzy, and it brought that song to mind.
@Dave Wiener:
“And, ewe! What is that stain on the front of your undies?”
Dude, don’t you recognize the face of JESUS when you see it?
I Love Is A Red Dress(Hang Me In Rags)
It fits into the theme Chimpy has tonight.
Pz, while I agree with you that suvh nonsense is intolerable and antithetical to the humanist/atheist movement, I don’t think your title for the post is appropritate. Whether or not the ‘tute can handle such thsreats is meaningless. No one should be making any threats of violence to groups whose ideology they disagree with. You say as much in the post but the title gives a sense of inherrent bias which we should all strive to eliminate. Cheers
Andrew
Janine, enjoyed that one(268)thanks,been a long time…
huh, looks like he’s all out of FINISHED, now all we get is RUINED. pffft, such a spoof. and I was getting all excited because we were all getting our FINISHED.
*sigh*
MadScientist @276
Oh. I thought it was just a dog’s ass.
PZDUMMY, you know that talk is cheap and those rumors ain’t nice.
How is it possible that David Mabus (aka davemabus aka PZDUMMY) isn’t IP banned from scienceblogs yet?
Heck, why not just ban all of Canada until every Canadian ISP agrees to forbid him from using the Internet?
I don’t even know what this thread is about anymore.
PZ, I am sure that Pharyngula and all the Pharyngulites still have a perfect record. As the resident Christian apologist (that’s such a terrible term; I don’t apologize for believing) I have never felt threatened by anyone here. Just a bunch of people having lively debate and not suffering any fools.
Darryl
David Wiener, it could be custard dripping from a dead dog’s eye.
pzdummy is the Walrus? More like a Blue Meanie.
Just for shits and giggles, Lily Allen covers Squeeze.
how did that line go about insanity and doing the same thing over and over…?
pzdummy? Did I hit too close to home? Are you spitting flecks of spittle in silent rage under a bare naked 40 watt bulb? Do you wonder why God has forsaken you and cast you into such misery for all your days? Sorry.
@DP “apologist” is derived from an older meaning of apology, “a formal justification”
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=apology&searchmode=none
This thread reminds me of the MASH episode where they burn all the furniture….:-)
Marianne Faithful covers a Neko Case song, Hold On, Hold On.
I hear the popping of atheist SOULS as I speak…
So THAT’s what that popping sound was! Ah, well. Never used my soul for much anyways. Bye-bye, soul!
It’s like performance art. And. like all art, it is impermanent. Soon it will all disappear and only we few will be able to recount the night that Dennis Marcuse spiraled into full-on brainblown nutsitude.
PZDUMMY, I am feeling some Soul Love.
It is not Bowie but a cover by Marti Jones. Sadly, she does not sing much anymore.
Ha! I got him so upset he forgot to cut and paste. Its like teasing a tiny dog that thinks it scarry. Only its just silly.
That popping sound PZDummy heard earlier was probably me, hummus and falafel on the same plate can do that. Either that or he’s lost in the Fire Swamp, and he’s about get torched.
And I hate to say it, I hate to say it, but I’m not going to post a link to that Sting song.
No wait, I will.
couldn’t be mine, I sold my SOUL on e-bay last week
Sting! Where is thy Death!
Well, I did like the bad he was with, even if sometimes they got perverse.
Janine, how about another Bowie cover? The Bewlay Brothers. By “The Replicants”
Ah, that was Just what I needed, indeed.
To whom it may concern:
This is to certify, That I have found the Key To all Existance. And all I ask of any one Is for them to read What I am about to say. Because it is not my purpose to tell What you already know. And consequently the proof Shall follow and establish My work to make it law.
For the key to all existance Is the key to the Law By which all things Come into existance and therefore my word Is the key to that law to be verified by proof Listen therefore to what I say As follows:
I bring you Dead Souls for the joy of it.
I’m waiting patiently to be crushed…
No! I want more Dead Souls. I mean it.
It’s a muse ic night on the net, has anyone got some soul they would like to share.
wow that was quick
Bone Oboe! Wake up! It’s time to die!
Well, it is not that scene.
A little OT, but I have been looking for a definitive solution to the atheist problem. Can anybody help me out?
Someone call for some soul?
Alright, this is more funky than it is soulful but here is Professor Longhair and The Meters. Tipitina.
Really, really sad. Everybody knows that the fist faces out in a middle-finger salute, and the thumb therefore is not visible. Total fail.
“so that our record would be spotless.”
Just because some of us are scathing in our dialogue with IDiots doesn’t lump us in with someone making death threats to the DI staffers.
I wouldn’t put it past the DI to have manufactured these death threats to get some publicity, and to try to add weight to its fantasy of being censored by the scientific mainstream.
However, if the police have been informed then the cuprit will eventually be caught. I’m willing to bet that it is someone connected with pseudoscience and not a rationalist.
Have you tried bananas?
Dear lord, Mabus is still at it!
I’m beginning to question his mental faculties…
?????? If you are an Xian ; eternal life with a loving god thingy, how can you be ‘threatened’ by ‘death’ ?
Aren’t you being offered something nice ?
Only beginning? The guy is certifiable.
I love that line in that video; “If you study a well made banana”. No, I think I’ll take my bananas all slipshod and poorly cultivated. Well made, what an ass.
Does he mean an “Athesit final solution?
Suppose We could all decide to go the “Guyana Grape” route, but then who’d fill this blog with wonderfully entertaining vitriol and humor?
Arg, there should be some sort of sarcasm font. We already use comic sans for quoting kooks. Yes, I know I could type ‘/sarcasm’ but explaining jokes almost always ruin them.
I think e’s gone
*looks around for a poo trail*
yep e’s gone
party on!
The DI got some hate mail? Well it wasn’t me.
I mean, the author didn’t mention David Boreanaz even once.
Kseniya- “James, the Shining recut is sweet! I can’t wait for that one. I hear their place has a beautiful topiary garden out front.”
And a room on the second floor with a helluva view….
Feynmaniac, you could try italics and sub-scripting. It’s sort of subtle. I don’t know, finding the key to clarify the conveyance of sarcasm, or tone in general would make things like this a hell of a lot easier as far as inflamatory misunderstandings go.
Yes, and his little web page mysteriously disappeared! *snicker* *snort* *grin*
Music trivia question for Janine (and anyone else for that matter) – the lyrics to Dead Souls include the word ‘conquistador’ – and, as we all know, the writer of that song, Ian Curtis, is dead.
Now, that’s not a very common word, and it’s even less common in song lyrics. But it has turned up in at least one song since. The one I’m thinking about was also written by a guy who’s now dead – and, like Curtis, battled drug use and depression.
Do you know which song it is?
An awful lot of teachers, nurses, and social workers would consider it a good day if they only had one abusive comment or death threat.
PZD sounds just like one of those sad little men who hang around our Public Library at closing time in order to pester the female librarians on their way home.
I think they’re faking it. I agree it’s probably just hate-mail envy.
Why would anyone want to threaten the DI anyway? It’s neither big nor clever to threaten the retarded.
I guess you won’t take the NIN cover of Dead Souls as an answer, however awesome T-rizzles version is… :P
Happy Tentacles, I took the big move today and said my farewells to Opera web browser and switched over to Firefox. It was sad saying goodbye at the time, but now it ain’t so sad because I like Firefox a lot better than the crappy Opera crap, which I didn’t know how crappy it was. Firefox is crappy too, but a lot less crappier in many ways. (But not all.)
Considering the Discovery Institute’s penchant for bending the truth, I wouldn’t be suprised if they hired a person to write a sufficiently convincing threatening letter to them to demonstrate to the whole world just how grievously oppressed they are.
Lessee now…hmmm…just guessing off the top of my head now…the score is currently at least 100 to 1 in favor of PZ as a superior magnet for drawing threatening letters. Is that roughly correct?
The DI should get their act together and REALLY make a decent try at it. Hire a company to make them up. It can only cost as much as advertisement does, and a good effort will only set you back a few million (mostly in untraceable cash, of course).
No, ‘fraid not. That’s the main reason I know the song, because of its inclusion on The Crow soundtrack – it was years before I heard the original.
Wowbagger, I’m going to make a wide Col. Mustard in the study with the revolver shot in the dark but
this: Procul Harum’s Conquistador isn’t it is it?
Hey Nothing/Mabus/Markuze/PZDUMMY, you promised me I’d get it worse than Rev&chimp;Chimp, Big Dumb. So far nothing’s happened! I’m still waiting… when am I gonna get it??!?
It’s not fair.
It is sooo not fair!
People get FINISHED and even RUINED.
And i’ll get nothing.. *sigh*
The only thing i got from pzdummy is the impression that he’s an old record that just keeps skipping.. most often on the same spot.
Poor guy.
I like the roses though, thanks :) You shouldn’t have.
Bone Oboe,
well googled.
Dont know if Janine is still here,the ‘mericans tend to fall over this time of night,anyway,here is Mr Robert Johnson :
And one more:
I wanted to say something humorous about the idiot troll, but no one will have any idea what I said after he’s deleted.
Patricia, OM @ 215: Probably.
I just don’t get how they could have any fun, behaving like that.
They’re posting where they’re not wanted and KNOW it.
People make fun of them and still they get back for more?
I know i’m just a godless atheist freak with no morals, but i would almost feel sorry for people like that.
They’re clearly troubled and would do good with some professional help.
No. A hint, though – the artist hasn’t been dead for all that long (i.e. < 10 years) and he was prolific from the early nineties until his (untimely) death. That artist isn't that obscure but the track isn't one of his more well-known.
Who knows whether it isn’t a joe job.
I know one that’s about a conquistador, by a still living guy…
New Rules from last night :
@PZDUMMY, why not take a trip to sweden, see the lövely lakes, the magestic moose, and all us atheists.
Ho-how! Hold your horses!
That is NOT a death-threat, not even close. It is a WISH.
What is implied is that ‘I want you to shut the fuck up or hopefully die’. What’s wrong with that?
The godfuckers want of course to misunderstand so they can appeal to vicimisation. Fucking creotards!
Anyway, when were cockroaches protected species??
now get lost…
HAHAHA… The stones on this one!
OMG! Rev! That’s it!
FINISHED is the anti-bacon!
I wish the abusive jerk had not done this stupid thing, so that our record would be spotless.
“Our” record? What does this have to do with “us”?
I don’t necessarily affirm the DI’s position on evolution but I can well attest to the abuse that is, at times, all to evident towards dissenters. It makes one wonder if there is in fact a serious problem with the stifling of debate and the suppression of ideas (the case of Alfred Lothar Wegener springs to mind). No, I say to you I believe there to be a problem. Good people, intelligent people, knowledgeable people, get tarnished in this cultural battle to weed out those who are not pure (in the evolutionists’ eyes).
Again, I am reminded of when Harold Kroto (and Peter Atkins) made some outrageously unfair and ridiculous (of the garden illuminati variety) allegations about the Templeton Foundation. At the time he was rightly rebuked. The majority of people in the wealthiest most powerful nation in the world are disenfranchised from science because of a belief that it is somehow incompatible with religious belief. This couldn’t be further from the truth. The reality is that belief in a divine being/order has greatly influenced much of science and evolution. And still today design metaphors/mechanisms are rife in the literature of evolution.
I can well attest to the abuse that is, at times, all to evident towards dissenters.
I sense something funny coming, but I’ll give it a chance.
of the garden illuminati variety
That is why you fail.
Thank you for playing. You gave me a laugh. Now, time for brekkist. No bacon for me :(. (I was never a huge fan anyway. Sorry, Rev.)
Pete “total fool” Rooke, you get abuse because you have absolutely no reason to post here, but keep doing so. The posters here are intelligent, believers in science, have very little or no religious tendancies, and are willing to be wrong. You lose on all four accounts. So, the big question is why do you continue to read this blog and attempt to post here?
Also, your pathetic attempts to weasel your way into being a regular in order to change it are amusing, and will be resisted every time you try. If you are smart, just go away.
Didn’t Pete also have a post about how he finds cunnilingus repulsive and would never subject a woman to oral sex? Or was that someone else?
Janine, Insulting Sinner #307
Snortle!
The Bells of Hell Go Ting-a-ling-a-ling
…And you’ll know they are Christians by their love.
/Mandatory.
Oh, and fer Mabus’ further consideration…
(Oh, all right, enough… Yes, I know better, I do. But see, I had this pointy stick right in my hand… Stopping now.)
Or it could just be that those who oppose evolution do it out of ideology rather than science, that they promote ideas that have been disproven and seek to undermine the teaching of genuine science – so it’s understandable that there would be some hostility towards them.
Why Pete when the DI is playing a game of subversion where in their mission statement they claim to seek to destroy materialism, why should anyone treat that organisation with anything other than contempt? Why is it that the Liars for JesusTM are always the ones who get the sympathy? They are liars pushing lies and trying to destroy academia because they don’t like where the evidence has taken us. Why do you find that worthy of defence?
Or is it like facilis where you don’t think they have any merit but you like the idea of someone going up against the Big Bad Atheists?
That Janine, man she has some fantastic taste in music. I was all set to buy tickets for Joy Division’s American tour when Ian Curtis died. Real gloom and doom, not that fake Depeche Mode stuff. And Public Enemy! And the best Police/Shakespear joke ever.
Kel,
I liken it to the case of Google. Google may well have the better search engine and may even use their vast powers to good effect. But I would still support a Microsoft/Yahoo combination (despite the fact the Microsoft isn’t necessarily as benign an influence) as a well-needed antidote.
Who is to say that compelling and unique science cannot be done from within the paradigm of Intelligent Design? Not I, and not many, for then one would be forced to discount Darwin.
This thread is so much nicer when you add the killfile script for GreaseMonkey;
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/4107
This thread is so much nicer when you add the killfile script for GreaseMonkey
Ah, yes. The equivalent of putting your hands over your ears and shouting La, La, La, La, La, La. If you can’t hear them they can’t be right can they.
*sniff*
*sniff sniff*
O good lard what happened in here?!?
Well, happy zombie day, all.
Bacon
“If you can’t hear them they can’t be right can they”
Even when we can hear you, you’re still not right.
Someone on here pointed me to greasemonkey add-on and the killfile script. I think it was Patricia but it was last weekend so… Whoever did, they get hugs all ’round. I just ‘killed’ pzdummy and all his posts went away in a flash. Joy, joy, joy.
Pete Rookd asks: “Who is to say that compelling and unique science cannot be done from within the paradigm of Intelligent Design?”
Ooh, me! Me!
Pete, intelligent design cannot ever under any circumstances be considered science, because it invokes a “designer” who is omnipotent (or nearly so). Since the designer can do anything or stop anything from happening, nothing can happen without a decision by the designer to do it or at least not to stop it. Each such decision by the designer represents an adjustable parameter of the theory, so the complication of the theory increases without bound. As such, ID cannot make predictions, and so cannot be scientific. Period. Got that?
Actually, our dear pathological liar, it’s more: ‘if you’ve already established through entirely too long an experience, and giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they’re a complete and utter waste of time, with nary an original idea in their head nor honest fibre in their entire body, don’t go wasting any more time on them’…
Oh, and speaking of…
(Killfiles Rooke…)
Who is to say that compelling and unique science cannot be done from within the paradigm of Intelligent Design? Not I, and not many, for then one would be forced to discount Darwin.
Nobody would be forced to discount “Darwin”. Unless of course part of the “paradigm of Intelligent Design” is that nothing ever evolves. (I wouldn’t be too surprised if that were the case though, considering how badly ID “fellows” don’t want to come from no stinkin monkeys.)
Close your eyes, disappear
If you can’t see them
Then they can’t. See. You
Right, close your eyes
Rooke, thank you for reminding me of that song. I love P.O.S.
Anyone current enough on the MN music scene to get that one?
I’m sure it could, because of come of the claims it has actually fuelled research into previously unexplored areas. But a few thoughts:
First, the concepts that ID did come up with have been discarded – irreducible complexity for example was actually a prediction of evolutionary theory that such structures should exist and it was made 90 years ago now. Such systems can and do evolve, and we actually have a fairly good idea of show some of those systems have done so. The challenge to evolution by ID has been refuted…
Which leads to point two. ID is nothing more than creationism rebranded. Why can we say this beyond cdesign proponentsists? Because of the tight coupling to religion. ID uses church groups, it uses political influence to push it’s ideas. And despite any claim to science being refuted, the movement still persists. This is fundamentally dishonest to conduct science outside the scientific arena…
Which directly leads into point 3. This movement was never about offering a legitimate means to challenge evolution. If you actually look at the history of evolutionary theory, you’ll see plenty of challenges to evolution. Some were good, others not. The modern theory has things in there Darwin could never dream of. Yet all this has come from challenging in academia. ID does not play in academic circles, it plays on a credulous public audience who aren’t scientists. While a couple of scientists try to be serious about it, the tight coupling to young earth creationism will mean this never move beyond a religious strategy to undermine “darwinism”…
Which brings me to my final point. By the DI’s own admission, their goal is to undermine science. They state it in their wedge document that they want to destroy darwinism. That is not the way to do science. You never start with a conclusion and defend it at all costs. The first thing any idea should be subjected to is finding as many ways as possible it could be falsified and test it against that. Without doing that, all you are doing is evangelising an untested hypothesis grounded in religion. Science is a process of refining being wrong. Falsification plays a huge part in it. If you don’t come in with the mindset that your idea can be falsified, then you don’t have science.
It comes down to this Pete, there may be a designer who is tweaking with nature. It may be that there is a designer who built everything. But trying to undermine academia is only going to be met with hostility from academics. The Discovery Institute by putting in their mission statement that it’s about bringing people to Jesus, that their goal is to destroy materialism, they are not doing science. And by operating outside of academia, ignoring the scientific challenges to their unscientific ideas, and propagating utter falsehoods, they are essentially giving a big middle finger to science.
If they wanted to play with the big boys, they have the chance. It’s an uphill battle to get any idea accepted in science, scientists are hostile to new ideas. But that’s a good thing. Every scientific truth we have now has survived that process. Why shouldn’t ID be subject to that same process and rigorous screening process?
You honestly think that’s the only death threat they’ve ever received? While they probably receive far fewer death threats than you, believing that it’s the only e-mail they’ve ever received like that is wishful thinking.
So tell us why the Intelligent Design community has demonstrated that they are wholly unmotivated to do any science, let alone “compelling and unique,” for the past 2 and a half decades since Intelligent Design
Theoryhas been introduced?Why have several prominent proponents of Intelligent Design have confessed that their pet idea was never intended to be a science in the first place?
I’m still upset about not getting my FINISHED and now all *YOU* people are getting one.
Well for one, none has been done so far. Zero. No science has been done.
Secondly in order to do so you have to immediately insert a non testable part in your process which goes against everything the scientific method relies on.
That’s why
It’s amazing how ID advocates just don’t understand the scientific process. Every idea in science has faced hostility upon a presentation to academia. Darwin was savaged when he first presented his theory by the likes of Owen and Herschel. Ideas come and go, only the ones that can stand the test of time and scrutiny are the ones that are a mainstay.
Science is not done, however, by whining that the scientific method does not give you a fair deal. Science is not done by appealing to church goers and stacking school boards. Science is not done by seeking to destroy academia. It’s not done by publishing books for non-scientists while not contributing to the academic process. The ID camp goes about this the complete wrong way if doing science is actually their goal. Though given all the evidence to the contrary, it’s doubtful that they are interested in science – rather it’s about getting Jesus taught in public schools.
Ah, Pete, you have been visiting here for almost a year, and still haven’t picked up on the fact that there are different types of ideas. Science has ideas, and they must be backed up with physical evidence. Period. That is how science works.
ID is a religious idea. It springs from the desire to have the bible be relevant to modern day life. But, when pressed, there is no evidence for the idea outside of the bible, and it must be accepted on faith, like religion. Ergo, no real research can be done since it might actually refute the idea. It must remain static to protect itself.
Science is only refuted by more science. ID cannot refute science since it is a religious idea, and has no scientific evidence to back it up. Since it is a religious idea, it has no place in the science classroom. We don’t say ID shouldn’t be taught in schools. It should be used in science classes as an example of junk science, or in comparative religion and mythology classes.
You need to be able to analyze what type of idea is being presented in order to determine its relevance in an argument.
You don’t want finished. It is the anti-bacon, it will destroy the universe.
By the by, does anyone know of any studies done by the DImwits? All I ever hear about is them pissing on about something.
How do they even sustain themselves? I’m wondering if the email came from their landlord?
Well there was the infamous Irreducible ComplexiFAIL
Other than that i can’t think of anything of note. They total rely on trying to poke holes in the ToE instead of focusing their energy trying to produce real science and submitting it to the peer review process.
Kel – nominated early for an OM for April!
Comment # 373 – almost cried reading this – wanted to stand up and scream YES! YES! YES!
Thank you, Kel. I have copied this and stored this comment on my hard drive. I hope you don’t mind if I use your prose in my future confrontations regarding ID that I am sure to be involved with (yet again, *sigh*).
What, did PZDUMMY finally just give up? Heck, somebody with that sort of obsessive-compulsive behaviour should be able to keep going for at least 24 hours…
Kel, #373 was definitely well said. Nice job.
I’ve just reread that, and noticed all the typos and grammatical errors. Though I think I got the point across. Use what you like of it Lee, and thanks for the compliment.
Oh Boy! Now the Disco Toot can play the persecution card. I get threats all the time. No one yet has knocked on my door to beat Jesus into me. So, I don’t think that The Toot has any worries.
I get several threats and I’m told not to worry. The Toot gets one and it’s Persecution Time!
Anyone else catch the comment at the bottom of the article?
*The incident report’s author helpfully describes Intelligent Design as an “alternative to Darwinian Theory.”
Snarky…
There’s a reason Kel in on my Molly list. But he has a lot of company.
You mean 0.85 (a typo, no doubt). 1 Tc is the insanity of timecube.com, and the scale is logarithmic.
How do you pronounce that, BTW? “Dollarfive bucks”?
ROTFL!
Freudian typo :-)
Me? Typos?
The real persecution has and is in The War against Science. As I posted last night on a nearby thread, at a Glenn Beck “tea party” some fundie was screaming about burning evolution and other books and removing their precious kids from college. Presumably so they can stay dumb and poor.
Unlike internet threats and email threats, which are ubiquitous enough to be expected, two science supporters have been beaten up, one was knifed to death, and several fired. The latest victim of fundie fascism is…Richard Dawkins, Distinguished Oxford professor and Oklahoma University by members of the OK state legislature. It cost his foundation $10,000 when he waived his fee rather than watch the OU biology faculty get witch hunted down and burned at the stake or whatever the christofascists do these days to their victims.
Perhaps I’m just being captain obvious…
I just realized that the problems with IDers is that they do not understand the difference between teaching science and doing scientific research. The just think ‘science’. I believe it must stem from an enormous reservoir of stupid.
Am I totally off the mark?
This has been addressed from several angles already, but:
Pete Rooke #363
Then why is this the first one they make public?
And why is it (as mentioned above) a mere death wish and not an actual death threat? Haven’t they got any of those?
The most parsimonious explanation is that they really haven’t got any of those.
––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Pete…
Let’s completely ignore the question of intent. Let’s ignore the Wedge Document (which is all over the Internet and was not even denied once by the Disinformation Institute). Let’s ignore the fact that Behe testified at the Dover trial that ID is only science if things like astrology are science, too. Let’s ignore everything except the proposal itself.
Intelligent Design says that the Designer is… wait for it… intelligent. That means Stupid Design should be, at least, very rare (not necessarily completely absent, because cdesign proponentsists don’t always openly ascribe omniscience and omnipotence to the Designer, but at least there shouldn’t be any stupidities that stand out to the average human like the proverbial sore thumb). See? Testable predictions can be deduced from this hypothesis. ID is scientific! Hooray!!!1!eleventyone!
So let’s test the prediction. How much Stupid Design is there? Well, why are vertebrate (and killer jellyfish) eyes built inside-out, so that the light has to pass a layer of nerves and blood vessels and then to strike the light-sensitive cells at the far end, when cephalopod eyes are built the right way around? Why don’t vertebrate eyes correct for chromatic aberration (I don’t know if any other eyes do)? Why are we born through a bony ring (no such ring in birds)? And so on and so forth, all the way to the biggie: Whose bright idea was it to use DNA as the material of heredity? DNA falls apart when stored in water. We spend lots of energy on constantly repairing it, and of course the repair sometimes screws up.
So what happened last time I had a long discussion (here on Pharyngula, BTW) with a cdesign proponentsist? Did he agree ID was falsified, or did he try to falsify all examples of stupid design?
Neither nor. He said we Puny Humans™ may be incapable of telling what is stupid, that we don’t know what the Designer was thinking, and that the Designer might therefore still be intelligent.
So I asked him if he felt comfortable outside of science. He has never come back.
That’s because his line of argumentation means the Designer is ineffable. And that means that, in case ID is wrong, we can’t tell that it is wrong. And that means it’s not science.
Again Pete, if you disagree that ID is not science, here are my two questions that ID must answer:
1. What role has the Designer played in the history of nature?
2. How can we test for an Intelligent Designer in nature?
I give justification for each question in the previous link.
It’s got to be said, that without having answers for either of those questions, just what justification is there for ID in the science classroom?
Another example of the fundie “worldview”. It isn’t that much of a leap from burning books to burning people and societies that do one often end up doing the other.
Patricia:
What the hell? What sexual cues?
Pete Rooke (some time back; I’ve been away at a gig*) wrote:
Yes, because the Catholic Church (for those who don’t know, Pete’s a Catholic) has always been extremely tolerant of dissenting opinions, and welcomed with open arms those who tried to interpret things a different way.
Say, Pete – are you familiar with the word ‘heretical’, and how the church dealt with those it deemed as such?
*Darren Hanlon supported by Jeffrey Lewis, if anyone’s interested.
Last time I mentioned bad design on here, randy decided that I wasn’t intelligent (or experienced enough) to understand whether it was bad design or not. Even if the eye is back to front, apparently I can’t say it until I build my own eye… even if there are eyes in nature that aren’t back to front showing that it can be done right.
Death threats over the internet, email and otherwise are federal crimes, felonies.
Just in case anyone is dumb enough to send any. The FBI has a cybercrimes unit and can and will investigate. Even with using multiple proxy servers, they can still hunt people down and ID them. Ever wonder where nerds who hack computer systems get jobs? The FBI hackers are good.
There are more than a few people doing long sentences in prison for sending death threats and getting caught. Rule Zero: Don’t do anything obviously stupid.
Well, as long as we’re collecting Randy stories, the last time *I* challenged him with stupid design, he responded ‘maybe god isn’t what you think god is”, and stated that imperfection is no argument against intelligence, as many imperfect things are manufactured by intelligent humans. Bit of a one trick pony, isn’t he?
Wouldn’t that entail that God is not perfect? Imperfect things are manufactured by intelligent humans because humans themselves are not perfect. (If true, this would solve the Epicurean dilemma; but it would also beg the question, if “the Designer” is not an omnipotent and perfect being, of why s/he deserves to be called “God”.)
Well, while I think you’re absolutely correct that they don’t understand the difference between these two aspects of science, this “problem” is not in any way limited to cdesign proponentsists; the general public exhibits this same lack of understanding. And I don’t think we (the scientific community and those with a serious interest in science) help by not having our own house in order with respect to communicating the difference.
And we don’t. We use scientist at times for those who “do” science and at times for those who teach/communicate science, often interchangeably, because we (the scientific community and those with a serious interest in science) don’t have it straight for ourselves what “doing” science means. What does doing science mean? What’s a scientist? Is a teacher of science a scientist or are scientists only those who “practice” it or “study” it in some formal way? The fact is, there isn’t a consensus answer to this question.
How important is having a consensus answer? I don’t know, but I suspect that the fact that the DI can use a lack of it “against us” suggests that it’s not unimportant.
Kel and David, Thankyou for that.
I don’t know about this. Why does a god have to be ‘perfect’? It’s a bit like the argument I got into with Silver Fox where he kept on asserting that it was ‘logical’ for his god to be perfect and I kept on asking him to explain what right he had to claim that*.
Where, exactly, are the specifications for what can and can’t be called a god displayed?
*His response was a strange analogy about bags of sugar; I didn’t accept it – oddly enough.
Kel,
I recommend you read some of Steve Fuller’s work on the potential benefits of such a paradigm shift.
On another subject previously discussed:
if people still believe that Hitchens performed well in that debate against the theologians (he floundered hopelessly) have a look at this video in which the arguments are actually debated and the opponent does not rely on anecdotal nonsense.
It highlights the potential for philosophy to make meaningful contributions in such a debate and how atheists could actually make decent arguments for their position if they were sufficiently trained/knowledgeable. Craig’s opponent is still wrong but on balance probably wins the debate because he focuses on the argument and not some fanciful amorphous notion of religion.
Pete Rooke,
At a minimum, to contribute to science, a theory has to make a testable prediction. I have shown that this is simply not possible for ID, so ID cannot be science.
The mistake you make is thinking that science is about explanation. It’s not. It is about prediction.
Pete Rooke’s depth-finding equipment malfunctioning once again and not giving him a reading of ‘you’re out of it’, wrote:
An atheist’s argument need only be as good as to better the argument presented by his opponent – which means it doesn’t have to be very good at all, because religion has no arguments in its favour, only assertions backed by long-winded, pseudo-philosophical – but essentially fallacious – sophistry.
What other kind is there? When it comes down to it, Pete, that’s all you’ve got: an unpolishable turd rolled in glitter and sprayed with deodoriser in the hope people won’t notice the smell.
Walton – In your case denial.
Oh please. Fuller? You can’t be serious.
Ray Ladbury,
Lets suppose that ID is bunkum. What does that have to do with the science that it inspires. The argument is that viewing the world as created by a divine reason, and hence intelligible to human reason, might be scientifically beneficial.
Simply because the premise is unfalsifiable does not mean that conclusions will be. These contributions may be in the same vein as notions of irreducible complexity etc. So not without merit.
Furthermore, the disenfranchised millions (Christians) can contribute to the collective process that we call science (and the 100’s of millions in the Muslim world). To say that the universe is intelligently designed says precisely what about natural selection? Darwinists are far too quick to fall behind vague amorphous notions of “evolution”, a catchall which can mean anything. Darwin viewed the world in ID vein until coming to his conclusions. Still today metaphors of design and progress (to what end) are rife in the literature of evolutionary theory. Precisely because it is such a useful way to look at the world. Dawkins even adopts the approach when communicating his theories!
It highlights the potential for philosophy to make meaningful contributions in such a debate and how atheists could actually make decent arguments for their position if they were sufficiently trained/knowledgeable.
Philosophy in such a context is mere marketing for medievalist theology, rationalization for belief tarted up as reasoned support. Philosophy is the invisible fabric and thread between religion’s dangly shortcomings and the courtiers cursing the scientists who rightly point and laugh.
Pete, that’s fine. They can keep doing that and if they find something great. But they can not whine and cry about being left out of science if they aren’t producing anything because they chose to take that path.
Unfortunately that is what they are doing. Constantly.
Fuller being one of the chief “doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground” participants.
Pete it does not matter if they are talking biology or physics or anything. If they posit an invisible hand of a designer that is untestable and unfalsifiable, it isn’t science.
Furthermore, the disenfranchised millions (Christians) can contribute to the collective process that we call science (and the 100’s of millions in the Muslim world).
The only thing that is preventing some christians from contributing to the scientific process is the self imposed belief the evolution destroys the idea of a god. That is their problem, not ours. It becomes our problem when they seek to impose their straitjackets on us.
What other kind is there?
Religion is largely irrelevant (though not solely) to the question of whether or not God exists. The question “Is God a necessary being? Why or why not?” Has nothing to do with the ridiculous belief that religion poisons everything. Hitchens return to well-worn irrelevant anecdotes was an attempt to hide the fact that he drinks too much and can’t be bothered to prepare for these debates.
More crap from the christofascist morons.
Most xians worldwide don’t have any problem with science and evolution. The creationists are mostly US Death Cultists based in the South Central USA. They don’t in any way, shape, or form speak for all xians, just their toxic cults.
In point of fact, 40% of all biologists describe themselves as religious, mostly xian. And nothing is stopping IDiots from doing research, it if a free country. They haven’t done any in over 2,000 years because ID isn’t science, it is politics and wacko religion.
Smugly pleading innocence since I would much prefer inflicting them with boils than killing them.
Religion is largely irrelevant (though not solely) to the question of whether or not God exists.
Not so. The testimony of the religious, as fatally uncompelling as it is, is not only the best evidence for the question as to whether or not God exists, it’s the only evidence. There isn’t any evidence apart from religious belief for a scientist to do anything with.
Just had a little converation along these lines with Scott Hatfield over on the Ken Miller thread. It was my claim that Miller’s general reputation is based on communication of science, not doing science. While he was previously a fine scientist (a microscopist and cell biologist, by the way, not an evolutionary biologist), he is now, like Dawkins, a full-time communicator. There’s nothing at all wrong with that, but it’s misleading to claim he’s a preeminent evolutionary biologist. He’s not and never has been.
Peter Rooke:
I’m pretty sure the poster was referring to PZDUMMY/David Mabus’s insane nonsense, not yours. Mabus is not right, whether I read his crap or not, and just killfiling him has made this thread much shorter.
The only thing that is preventing some Christians from contributing to the scientific process is the self imposed belief the evolution destroys the idea of a god. That is their problem, not ours. It becomes our problem when they seek to impose their straitjackets on us.
It is all of our problems. It is the type of thinking that leads to a questioning of whether or not facilities that monitor volcanoes are really needed (I forget the politician who said that). It results in a huge mass of intelligence and material resources completely divorced from the scientific process.
And then you have to acknowledge that the spotty kid in the corner of the party who just might then make havoc in latter life because of his exclusion. No, Janine, this is all of our problems.
Rev,
What does it matter if it is taught as religious premise from which science flows from. The question “Is there an intelligent designer” is unknowable in science because it is unfalsifiable. Which is precisely why we must distance ourselves from the likes of Dawkins who repeatedly and gratuitously link evolution and atheism. They are not mutually exclusive. And ultimately we are talking about belief. One does not, in their mind, separate different types of belief on the basis of the methodology said belief is derived from. You either believe something or you do not. What, therefore, is the problem with the religious starting from the premise (whether they call it a scientific starting point or not) that the universe is intelligently created?
If they produce good testable falsifiable science then really nothing. But they won’t if they chose to use supernatural explanations when trying to explain things. And just because they are working this way they can’t just claim they are actually doing science because they think they are. They have to produce.
People are allowed to do whatever they want. If someone wants to start from the premise that the hamsters in his cage started the universe, that’s fine. But it doesn’t mean he is doing science. Same goes with the ID folks. They can claim whatever they want but they have to produce.
Results matter.
Somebody should trace that letter, chances are they wrote it themselves.
A comparative count of words, versus paragraphs and punctuation marks would reveal if it really was written by an atheist.
Or it could be written with all caps, that would made staqtisticall analysis unnecessary.
One does not, in their mind, separate different types of belief on the basis of the methodology said belief is derived from.
One had bloody well better commence doing so then, hadn’t one, else one doesn’t survive for very long in the real world without a lot of other people watching out for one.
Rookie, you are full of shit. We do not require the nattering stupidity of people in the DI to spur questions about procedure in science. The scientists questioning each other about every fact and idea does the job. Arguments from ignorance provides nothing; in fact, it is worst than nothing. How much effort has to be spent defending against the incredulous? Now many people who have the intelligence and inclination to be scientists are discouraged from ever considering the field because their family thinks it is evil.
Rookie, the DI is working their propaganda on people like you. And they are doing their job well. You have swallowed the bilge.
My story isn’t about Randy, but of course his answer reduces to the exact same escape from science.
What science? Where is it? Where are the papers? References, please.
That does not follow in either direction.
If the conclusions – the predictions deduced from the hypothesis – are falsifiable, then so is the premise (if the conclusions turn out to be wrong, the premise has to be wrong). If you artificially protect the conclusions from being falsifiable (for example by asserting that stupid design is actually ineffably intelligent), you protect the premise from being falsifiable and thus from being science. Think before you write. :-)
Disenfranchised???
To say that living beings are intelligently designed is in direct conflict with mutation & selection, and less parsimonious even if (see trick explained above) not falsifiable.
So vague indeed that I absolutely don’t understand what you mean. Please explain.
Well, yeah. We also still say that the sun rises and sets, because that lie is such a useful way to look at the world. It’s still a lie, however.
…has not much to do with the question whether God exists, unless you happen to define “God” as “necessary being”, which begs the question.
This could very well just be one more case of the religotards over reacting because they sense the tipping point is closer. Here’s a new article I enjoyed reading:
Fear the Rainbow! Are you afraid, Christian? Are you afraid *enough*?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=g/a/2009/04/10/notes041009.DTL
Results matter.
And yet results do not simply appear out of thin air. They require sustained intellectual (teaching resources etc.) and material support. Which is why Steve Fuller supported the ID case on the grounds of something resembling affirmative action.
Rookie, the DI is working their propaganda on people like you. And they are doing their job well. You have swallowed the bilge.
Janine,
I can assure you that I was not influenced by either the hamper of hummus related items sent to me or by the six cases of the now extinct TAB soft drink. No, I am fiercely independent and thoroughly impartial.
results do not simply appear
They haven’t, they don’t, they won’t, and they’ve got Rookie making excuses for how they coulda shoulda woulda and how the really big one got away. Science is what works. ID is science in the “not” mode, with the added stench of desperation, involving lashing out and blaming everybody and everything else but themselves for their failure to accomplish anything but grifting marks like Rookie.
Yes but ID and any supernaturally based attempts at producing have yielded nothing. Why shoudl they get a pass when we have an easy to point to track record of them producing nothing.
They can apply for grants just like everyone else. Surely there are religiously motivated groups with money for these sort of things? They don’t just get a pass because they think they deserve one.
They should have to go through he same steps every other single idea in science has to. Why should they be treated differently especially considering their track record?
We seem to be talking past each other.
That’s not what ID is. ID is the position that biodiversity is intelligently created – that the tree of life (if it exists at all, but Behe accepts that, even though Dembski AFAIK doesn’t) branches when a miracle happens, not when a mutation happens and is selected for.
If you believe the Big Bang was the act of creation, the moment when God pushed the red button, you won’t run into many problems with science, but that position is not ID.
Pete Rooke #368 wrote:
The Intelligent Designer is falsifiable in the same way that vitalism, ESP, the four humors, dowsing, and the ether are falsifiable. Each one of those phenomenon could, in theory, make successful predictions, and at one point they were tested with high hopes. Over time they failed to stand up under scrutiny, and we found better explanations for the experiences they were supposed to explain. We no longer hold them as reasonable possibilities because of the Razor, and they are provisionally rejected.
Dawkins is treating the existence of God the same way scientists treat vitalism. Most people don’t criticize physicists because they don’t accept “life energy.” The exception, of course, are the advocates, who, like all pseudoscientists, insist that positive tests would count, but failed tests mean nothing. The reason their pet theories can’t be falsified isn’t because dowsing or homeopathy are “outside of science,” but because of human stubbornness in accepting results which fail to confirm their personal experience.
If all their belief does is inspire them to work hard and be objective, then there’s no discernable problem. But using the belief in an Intelligent Designer in that narrow sense assumes that the universe would look exactly the same, whether their starting belief was true, or their starting belief was false.
That takes the content out of the belief, and leaves nothing but whatever warm fuzzies one gets from it. It’s no more, or less, useful than starting your inquiries with “I am a worthwhile person who can do great things if I work hard.” It’s not a logical or rational starting point either in science or for science: it’s a Daily Affirmation.
Rev,
Black people can apply for places at prestigious universities as well. They even get in. Black people can also apply for high-profile jobs. They might even be accepted. Ergo, no need for affirmative action?
From further up the thread:
I liken it to the case of Google. Google may well have the better search engine and may even use their vast powers to good effect. But I would still support a Microsoft/Yahoo combination (despite the fact the Microsoft isn’t necessarily as benign an influence) as a well-needed antidote.
ID might just be that necessary antidote.
Show me a case where someone didn’t get a grant or a job because they believe in ID. Oh… read this first.
Too bad that it’s wrong, then.
That’s where your analogy fails. Google vs Microsoft vs Yahoo! isn’t a question of right vs wrong. Science isn’t postmodernism; there is such a thing as an error.
If you can come up with a scientific hypothesis that contradicts the theory of evolution by mutation, selection and drift and hasn’t been falsified yet, more power to you! ID just doesn’t fit that definition.
The Intelligent Designer is falsifiable in the same way that vitalism, ESP, the four humors, dowsing, and the ether are falsifiable.
Sastra,
I think this is dishonest. I made the effort to distinguish between the belief and what arises from it. Newton is a perfect example of what I was talking about. He saw the universe as inherently intelligible and as such adopted an Instrumentalist approach to the laws of nature. From his belief about the nature of the universe followed his discovery. Likewise with Darwin. Is the ID a useful/revolutionary paradigm (in the same way that it was then) from which to make significant scientific discoveries? That is the question. What discovery of the same kind has flowed from dowsing etc. It has no pedigree.
We seem to be talking past each other.
David,
You will agree there is significant overlap between the positions. It seems unlikely that all life is intelligently designed in a universe that is not. If the universe is designed then in some sense life is intelligently designed as well. No?
On that note I am forced to leave.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/33333_At_Glenn_Beck_Tea_Party-_Burn_the_Books!
Man: “Burn all the books?!”
Woman: “The ones in college, those, those brainwashing books.”
Man: “[laughs] Brainwashing books?”
Woman: “Yes.”
Man: “Which ones are those?”
Woman: “Like, the evolution crap, and, yeah…”
Hat tip to:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_04/017705.php
“I really don’t want someone to say, as Dembski does, that he can prove the existence of God using statistical formulas. The problem with that is that if you disprove his argument, you prove there’s no God.” — (L. Barker, professor at Baylor U.)
If you fund studies in Intelligent Design and they fail to pan out, would you be willing to accept the consequences?
The reason atheists try to keep God out of science is because it’s a poor theory which goes nowhere. The reason theists try to keep God out of science is because it turns God into a theory which goes nowhere.
Oh, please, make it so.
ID might just be that necessary antidote.
And vitalogy just might be the necessary element to get new ideas into medicine. And the flat earth idea just might be the necessary element to get new ideas into space exploration. See that person in his shit encrusted clothes, that person just might be the necessary element in learning how to live your life.
The reason atheists try to keep God out of science is because it’s a poor theory which goes nowhere. The reason theists try to keep God out of science is because it turns God into a theory which goes nowhere.
Since there are so many more gems like this from Sastra, it wouldn’t be hoarding would it, if I could collect the entire set?
Pete Rooke #382 wrote:
Not dishonest, but thorough. As I pointed out, when you use any starting assumption only as an inspiration, the content doesn’t matter. Is the problem with invoking an Intelligent Designer the fact that such a belief is unfalsifiable? No — if you understand that it’s open to being cut out in favor of better explanations.
I think it is the other way around. Why did Newton believe that God was an intelligible, rational God? After all, there are plenty of mystics who throw out the scientific method and refuse to study Nature because they believe that God is inherently irrational and unintelligible, the material world is illusion, and thus no observation can be trusted.
He believed that God was intelligible because he looked at God’s creation, and inferred God’s nature from nature itself. His belief about a rational nature lead to his belief about a rational God, which gave him confidence. But absent the belief in God, nature would still have been what it is.
@David M.
“Show me a case where someone didn’t get a grant or a job because they believe in ID. Oh… read this first.”
Top scientist and Mathematician William Dembski (known as the “Isaac Newton of Information Theory”) was fired from Baylor because of his support of ID
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/december4/18.20.html
Rooke wanders off, leaving a mess behind.
The idea that there is an Intelligent Designer isn’t necessarily falsifiable or not. “Intelligent Designer” needs to be seriously defined, or we are in one of those arguments where each side means something different, and one side keeps changing its mind about what it means, usually retroactively.
If someone was to posit an Intelligent Designer that set up the Universe, arranged for evolution, and then snuck out, erasing its tracks behind it, all we’ve got are arguments about probability and swipes with Occam’s razor. That “Intelligent Designer” isn’t falsifiable, properly speaking.
But most other versions of an “Intelligent Designer” are observable and falsifiable, and already falsified, thanks.
Invigilator #25
As, indeed, are the best compliments. For example, “Your Majesty is like a long streak of gnats’ piss.”
*Reads #389*
Oh shit, here we go.
“Go ahead and speak. But if you want to be taken seriously as science, you have to do the work, and stand up to legitimate criticism. Come up with a testable theory, and do research, and get published. What is being done is not real science, but pseudoscience — just “science-y” enough to fool nonscientists.”
This is not what ID people do. Scientist Dr. William Dembski (who is known as “The Isaac Newton of information Theory”) has done lots of scientific research and published many peer-reviewed books refuting evolution. Scientist Dr. Michael Behe (who is known on his myspace page as “one of the the greatest minds in biochemistry”) has also published many peer-reviewed book. However they still discriminate against eminent scientist like Dr. Behe. When he tried to get his research published in a journal an editor told him
“As you no doubt know, our journal has supported and demonstrated a strong evolutionary position from the very beginning, and believes that evolutionary explanations of all structures and phenomena of life are possible and inevitable.”
Basically they will not let him publish becayuse they already believe in evolution. Dr. Johnathan Wells explains more here.
http://www.discovery.org/a/1212
“1) Discovery Institute stands up for free speech and academic freedom. Liberals love free speech
We could also say the same for those advocates for the moon land hoaxers and the flat earth theory. Why knowingly teach children what is wrong. There is the issue of trust.”
However there are not over 700 scientists who are sceptical of flat earth theory and scientific organistaions like the DI that support these things
“2)DI opposes censorship, which liberals also oppose
Trying to force a disproved theory in the classroom is not proof that one opposes censorship.”
If it is such a disproved theory why do so many scientists support it
“3)DI stands up for good science education and critical inquiring in the classrooms.
Saying An intelligent designer did it! is the opposite of what science is.”
Then archeology ,engineering and forsenic science are not science
“4)DI wants to allow people to teach controversial topics. Liberals also try to teach controversial things (same-sex marriage,sex education..) in class. You are like allies
Where does DI come down on sex ed and GLBT marriages?”
I don’t know bvut I was pointing out the hypocrisy of some liberals. They want to teach every controversy except evolution.
“5)DI opposes discrimination against people and promote rights in cases like that of the Cuban guy Guillermo Gonzalez . Liberals groups also oppose discrimination.
Once more, methinks we have a Poe here. Being against a disproved theory is not analogous to racial discrimination.”
It is not a disproved theory. It is legitimate science research.
“6) DI opposes tradition and dogmatism in science and encourages a diversity of views.
DI is all about embracing tradition and dogma. If DI let go of it, it would evaporate into the air. ”
No the Di promotes critical inquiry and analysis of all views. This is why they support academic freedom bills
DembskiFanGirl #393 wrote:
My understanding is that both Dembski and Behe have been thoroughly refuted by their peers. Neither one is respected or even well-known in his field — not even as someone with an interesting and ‘cutting edge’ idea. What is good is not original, and what is original is not good, they say.
So here is the problem. Acknowledged experts delve into the technical details and conclude the arguments don’t work. People like you and I have no real expertise in these areas, which require a great deal of study to understand, let alone master.
Do we go for a conspiracy theory?
Do we buy into the idea that the Lone Maverick Scientist, working on his own, has come up with a groundbreaking paradigm shift that refutes all the so-called experts? We ourselves are smarter than the experts, you see, because we’ve got common sense and humility, and instinctively know who to trust.
And do we buy into this grand conspiracy theory despite the fact that science, as a social activity, thrives on controversy, breaking authority, and finding new ideas before other people do? It is not in any scientist’s best interest to ignore a potentially fruitful field of study — particularly one that would grant public honor (if not adoration) in addition to scientific respect.
There was recently a thread on physics crackpots, and how to spot them. Einstein is wrong — they’ve worked it out on a napkin, and now only need someone else to come in and do the math! Nobody will listen to them because everyone else is afraid to admit they’re wrong!
Uh huh. Cranks are cranks no matter what the field, and you cannot find any idea so bizarre that there isn’t a PhD scientist somewhere who buys into it, whether you’re talking alien abductions, perpetual motion machines, or the Bush administration planning the demolition of the Twin Towers, and the jet planes were just a decoy. The point for non-scientists isn’t being able to point to any single scientist, or small group of scientists: it’s seeing who actually won the competition for the consensus view.
Once you enter into Conspiracy Theory thinking, it is very hard to get out again. Take care.
FlameDuck #282
Hate mail envy ! Fnah ! Fnah! I love that !
DembskiFanGirl #394 wrote:
700 evolutionary biologists? I think not. And that matters.
“List of Scientists who reject evolution:”
Beehee is on Myspace?
:snickers:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaz
For the love of Fred, someone please do ‘shop job of an emo/goth Beehee (I am not a member of AtBC).
So DembskiFanGirl’s main arguments are the Watchmaker’s argument, a couple of self proclaimed great scientists are persecuted by the rest of the mainstream scientists and those nasty librals back every controversial position but creationism. Sad.
That’s the funniest thing I’ve read in a while
You and Silver Fox need to hang out. That’s a ridiculous analogy.
Fucking ridiculous.
The Isaac Newton of information theory? Newton was held in high esteem by his peers and the public in his own lifetime. His main body of scientific work went unchallenged for 200 years. Where is the resemblance exactly?
Argument from authority: you’re doing it wrong.
“It is not a disproved theory.”
It’s not even that. It’s airy handwaving in the defense of a religious and cultural agenda. They can’t even define the theory, let alone the “designer”, and that way they can justify pretty much any finding as supporting it.
DembskiFanGirl (come on–there can’t possibly be any such thing, can there?) sez:
Perhaps, Ms. Girl, you were unaware that Dembski was hired at Baylor in the first place explicitly because of his support of ID? But let’s check the link you supplied:
Oops.
Following up on Sastra’s comment, #395
If you want to hear a easy-to-understand, devastating takedown of Behe’s single paper (theoretical, not experimental) that claims to show irreducible complexity, may I recommend Ed Brayton’s interview with Ken Miller (start around 24 minutes in).
There isn’t a single piece of data supporting intelligent design in peer-reviewed scientific research papers, let alone a single testable mechanism through which the “intelligent agency” influences the natural world. It’s not science, it’s an extended argument from incredulity.
Actually among information theorists he is known as the Johann Joachim Becher of Information Theory.
Got a fundie here. The constant lies show it well.
Dembski isn’t even remotely a scientist, his present position is in theology at a bible college and his degree was in math. He isn’t even a particularly well known or accomplished mathematician either, having few, if any, publications in the math literature.
Dembski was fired at Baylor for incompetence and personality problems. Shortly after he was hired, he started a pointless and trivial blood feud with the Baylor administration. This is just stupid and not what is expected of adults in academia. He has since caused more problems at Baylor and is all but banned from the campus
Behe is a fourth rate hack who used to be a biochemist. He stopped doing biochemistry and publishing papers when he got involved in ID. Which just goes to show how productive a field ID is, since it isn’t science but politics and weird cult religion and, it hasn’t gone anywhere in well over 2,000 years.
He’s also really bad as a witness in a legal case.
really really bad
Could it be that baggy jumper/cardigan thing? Can fan-girling taste like that in be so bad/weird that it counts as pathological? Could it merely be a fan-girling-of-convenience – as a cry for help or a desperate attempt to be an individual (by professing to have such an unpopular crush)?
DembskiFanGirl #389:
Get your facts right. Firstly, he was removed as director of the former Polanyi Center, but remained as an associate research professor, so he was not ‘fired from Baylor’. Secondly, he was not removed due to his support for ID, but because of his actions after an outside committee was convened to decide what would be done with the Polanyi Center, which the faculty had already voted to dissolve. The committee decided, in a spirit of cooperation, instead of dissolving the center totally, the center would instead be reconstituted as part of the university’s Institute for Faith and Learning. Dembski sent out a press release stating that this decision was an ‘unqualified affirmation of my own work on intelligent design’ and that ‘dogmatic opponents of design who demanded that the Center be shut down have met their Waterloo.’ This utterly threw this spirit of cooperation out the window, and Dembski refused to retract his statements, accusing the university of ‘intellectual McCarthyism’. It was then that the decision was made to remove him as director.
#393:
It is not ‘discrimination’ for a scientist to take someone’s supposed ‘science’ and rip it apart in about three seconds flat using real science. This has happened to all Behe and Dembski’s ‘peer reviewed research’ to date. The kind of ‘peer review’ that this kind of stuff gets published under is what I call pseudo-peer review. This is where the article/book/whatever gets submitted to a ‘peer review panel’ that is composed of people who are all inclined not to look too closely at any flaws in the science, usually because they all a priori accept the fundamental argument that the article/book/whatever is trying to make. In real peer review, the peer reviewers critically examine the article, quite deliberately looking for errors of any kind.
Even going by your own biased source, that’s not the full quote. There’s a bit on the end – ‘Hence a position such as yours, which opposes this view on other than scientific grounds, cannot be appropriate for our pages.’ In other words, they found the essay was principally using a non-scientific argument, so was not suitable for a science journal.
#394:
All of which have failed to provide a single shred of concrete evidence supporting ID, and, indeed, seem more concerned with attempting to disprove evolution than trying to find any such evidence.
Because the ‘scientists’ are usually things like mathematicians trying to do biology. In other words, they’re operating outside their field of expertise.
Yes, they are, because they use evidence and logic to determine that a specific designer built x, y or z, perhaps even managing to work out when and why, or working out how to build something themselves, or using evidence and logic to work out what happened in a specific situation. ID goes ‘an unknown designer, of unknown nature, of unknown origin designed and created either some life or all life, at an unknown point in time, for an unknown purpose, using an unknown method, and I know this because I, personally, can’t believe and/or don’t understand how all life/this specific example of life evolved.’ And that’s if you accept the canard that ID isn’t creationism in disguise.
Mainly because evolution is scientific in nature. In science, you go with the evidence. Guess what? There is masses of evidence in favor of evolution, and the ‘evidence’ in favor of ID consists mainly of personal incredulity at evolution, with some faulty (or just plain made up) statistics thrown in the pot for flavor, and a dash of science-y language for garnish. So ‘liberals’ think it’s a good idea to teach science in science class.
Well, every single scrap of…well, I was going to say ‘solid evidence’, but there hasn’t been any, so let’s just settle for ‘evidence’, has been pretty categorically torn to shreds. What definition of ‘disproved’ are you using that this doesn’t fit? Or are you obliquely using ID argument #265, ‘I can throw out any assertion I like, regardless of whether it has any evidence, and you have to disprove it’?
No, they support skewed ‘critical inquiry and ‘analysis of all views’ as a cover to try to get ID into science classes, and ID is, in turn, a cover for religious creationism. This means that they want the ‘weaknesses’ of evolution blown up to about 1000 times what they actually are, the huge amounts of evidence in support of evolution delineated, or even eliminated, and the fact every scrap of ‘evidence’ in support of ID has been disproven conveniently forgotten.
If they did want genuinely balanced ‘critical inquiry and analysis’ taught in schools, when it came to teaching the evidence in favor of evolution, the students would be presented with several big thick textbooks in order to cover the basics in depth. When it came to teaching the solid evidence in favor of ‘Intelligent Design’, the students would be handed a single sheet of paper – which was blank.
They would then be asked to critically analyse the two sets of evidence, and, using what they had been taught about the scientific method, conclude which was correct.
That dishonest little weed? I think not. Do you remember the Dover Trial? Fuller was the guy that advocated teaching Intelligent Design so that in the future there would be people who could show that it’s a valid science. Yet not a single idea in science has propagated this way, every scientific theory we support now once started out like Intelligent Design – as an idea that the scientific community were hostile to. The difference is that ID is not fighting for validity in the academic arena, it’s fighting for it in the public. Did you even read my post at #320? Are you honestly that naive, or are you stupid? Just what is wrong with my assessment of the DI’s strategy and the strategy of ID as a whole? What have I missed? Or is it simply you think that writing pop science books is actually doing science?
Pete, get an education on evolution. Read some Ken Miller and see that ID has been refuted. Read some Ken Miller and see that evolution and God don’t have to be incompatible. Evolution does not kill god any more than having a naturalistic cause for earthquakes or solar formation. The difference between ID and theistic evolution is that ID demands that God intervened in nature – and if that claim has empirical support then show it. Saying it looks designed therefore it’s designed was answered by Dawkins before the term Intelligent Design became the new permutation of Creationism. But do you think that God couldn’t create through evolution? That God isn’t omniscient enough to know that if he starts the universe under the right conditions that humanity would arise?
The difference between those two views is this: the ID view is making a testable hypothesis for God. Which leads to those two questions I asked earlier – just what did God do and how do we test for that? Can we call God a failed hypothesis now that we have a good understanding of the evolution of the blood clotting system? The theistic evolution view makes God an unfalsifiable hypothesis and fits perfectly with the science.
If God were an omnipotent and omniscient being, why would god continuously tweak life as opposed to just creating it? The ID view is weak theology in addition to it being pseudoscience. If I were religious, I’d be embarrassed of what the IDers say of God. It makes for quite a pathetic entity.
Why should we not allow Dawkins to speak? If Collins has the right to say “evolution is God’s way of giving upgrades” then Dawkins (or Dennett) have the right to say that evolution kills the necessity of God. He has every right to draw philosophical conclusions from the science and speak on them – just as everyone else. We shouldn’t need to distance ourselves from any comment, are Christians that fragile that they need to be coddled every step of the way?
In the past two weeks Casey Luskin and others at DI have gone after Chris Comer, a grandmother and science teacher who had the bad judgment to defend Texas’s science standards at the Texas Education Agency, and they’ve gone after a distinguished biologist from the University of Texas, David Hillis.
They have the gall to complain about such tactics now?
Maybe DI ought to think hard, give some circumspection to how people behave in civilized society, and start modeling it.
I regret someone threatened them. What they said about Ms. Comer might qualify as “fighting words” here in Texas. They’d have a hard time claiming they didn’t cause the ruckus, were it at a normal venue, like a bar or a church.
Should DI get more protection because they are cyberbullies?
Sometimes the schoolyard bully pushes someone over the edge, and we discover another kid on the playground who can beat up the bully. Sometimes the bully matures and figures it out before he gets beaten up. We can hope for such growth.
We shouldn’t need to distance ourselves from any comment, are Christians that fragile that they need to be coddled every step of the way?
It would be nice if it were that simple. But don’t forget they actually take that stuff “seriously” and they think people go to hell. I put seriously in scare quotes because it’s a wonder they don’t try harder to keep people out of hell if they really do take that stuff seriously.
I find the whole thing a crock. They don’t listen to anything Dawkins has to say, yet we are supposed to believe that they are actually influenced by Dawkins saying that he sees science and God as incompatible? At best all it’s going to do is feed into a previously-held belief of the incompatibility.
Beautiful! Smidgy’s well-stated comment at #411 definitely satisfies the need for “Information, please!”
DembskiFanGirl, you may find that your mind is resistant to all this new knowledge, particularly in light of how you’re apparently emotionally invested in the prodigious amount of garbage that has invaded your mind in the guise of fact – yes, Intelligent Design Creationism is a Trojan Horse, and its targets are our schools and our minds – but I strongly suggest that you take the criticisms penned by Smidgy, James and others very seriously. ID is a losing proposition, for one reason only: THERE’S NOTHING THERE.
Dembski’s shooting-himself-in-the-foot act at Baylor is definitive. He screwed himself, and since that day he’s done nothing but whine about it and paint himself as a victim of intellectual repression.
It’s all very dishonest. The Discovery Institute isn’t a scientific organization at all, it’s a public relations entity with an admitted religious agenda. Their mission is not to advance the body of human knowledge, it’s to unseat materialism and evolution in favor of a presupposed “theory” of design, regardless of what the facts suggest or demand.
Insightful Ape:
Voltaire’s mistress.
But voltaire quoted it approvingly.
I’m Spartacus! (And so’s my wife)
Patricia,
Denial of what, exactly?
“DembskiFanGirl, you may find that your mind is resistant to all this new knowledge, particularly in light of how you’re apparently emotionally invested in the prodigious amount of garbage that has invaded your mind in the guise of fact”
It is fact that many scientists are abandoning evolution.; You and the pharyngulites just cling to it out of fear that there might be some kind of designer. You are resorting to brainwashing children and not letting them know about the scientific controversy ,teaching them materialistic dogma instead of scientific inquiry
“yes, Intelligent Design Creationism is a Trojan Horse, and its targets are our schools and our minds”
You are just poisoning the well. The DI just wants to protect the minds of children from the dogma you are peddling and open up classrooms to scientific inquiry in controversial theories like abiogenesis and evolution instead of teaching them as dogma
“but I strongly suggest that you take the criticisms penned by Smidgy, James and others very seriously. ID is a losing proposition, for one reason only: THERE’S NOTHING THERE.”
There is lots of stuff in ID. Tonnes of scientific literature have been published in support of it. There even is a new journal that suppports ID.
“Dembski’s shooting-himself-in-the-foot act at Baylor is definitive. He screwed himself, and since that day he’s done nothing but whine about it and paint himself as a victim of intellectual repression.”
Dembski has 2 PhD’s and an MDiv.. He is an expert scientist, mathematician, philosopher and theologian. He has more scientific expertise in his pinky finger than all of you will ever have
“It’s all very dishonest. The Discovery Institute isn’t a scientific organization at all, it’s a public relations entity with an admitted religious agenda.”
The DI is a secular scientific organization. Many members such as Berlinski are not religious.
“Their mission is not to advance the body of human knowledge, it’s to unseat materialism and evolution in favor of a presupposed “theory” of design, regardless of what the facts suggest or demand.”
They have presented many facts that support ID and refute evolution.
Oh please show us these facts.
Just imagine what he’s got in the sweater, then. Hoo.
IzPoe?
Wow! DembskiFanGirl, damn, you just shook up my preconceptions. I am going to start contributing money to DI. I am also going to change my moniker to DembskiFanGirlFanGirl.
Wedge document.
“Got a fundie here.”
I am not a fundie
“Behe is a fourth rate hack who used to be a biochemist. He stopped doing biochemistry and publishing papers when he got involved in ID. Which just goes to show how productive a field ID is, since it isn’t science but politics and weird cult religion and, it hasn’t gone anywhere in well over 2,000 years.”
Behe has publsihed much research supporting Intelligent design. You can read them here
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=submitSearchQuery&query=Michael%20J.%20Behe&orderBy=date&orderDir=DESC&searchBy=author&searchType=all&includeBlogPosts=true
And Behe is not a hack. He is acknowleged to be “one of the most brilliant minds in biochemistry” on myspace.
http://www.myspace.com/michaelbehe
It is plain to see that you are a victim of the biased media reporting of ID.
To get a more fair and balanced account of ID I recommend you watch an excellent science documentary called “Expelled” (it has Ben Stein). On the DVD cover you can see from the review that it is a 5 star movie.
Poe!!! Poepoepoepoepoepoepoepoepoe!
or,
Stupid!!! Stupidstupidstu &c.
Poe or stupid? A third possibility: Extremely bad liar (with an implication of possibly being a sockpuppet).
Has anyone ever used MySpace as proof of a person’s standing in Biochemistry, let alone any field of study?
Please DempskiFanGirl, Expelled has one of the lowest review scores ever. Also, do yourself a favor and visit Expelled Exposed to learn about that mockumentary.
And a word of warning, you have picked the wrong blog to praise Excreted. Go up to the upper left hand corner of this page. You will find a search engine. Enter “Expelled” and see what you will get. Hours of entertain can be had.
:hangs head in shame:
I shouldn’t’ve hadd to look up Becher. I’m a bad chemist.
Hours of entertainment can be had.
‘sigh’
I found this other story story about a scientists who came under attack for setting up a ministry that questioned Darwinism. You can read it here
http://www.patriotuniversity.com/PriceOfTruth.htm
It appears he was later imprisoned on false tax charges according to his website.
DFG, if you’re real, you are the most gullible human I have ever encountered.
But I suspect you’re not real.
This chick has got to be a Poe.
“Patriot University”? Oh for fecks sake, that’s a notorious unaccredited degree mill. You might as well cite The Protocols of the Elders of Zion while you’re at it: Both are equally truthful.
(Yes, I realise I’ve probably just committed a Godwin.)
DempskiFanGirl, you really need to learn more about Kent Hovind. And this was before he was sent to jail.
Also, Patriot University is a degree mill. It is not even up to the sad level of Regent or Liberty.
Here is my dropped link for Kent Hovind
blf, seeing that it was a creation of the Okhrana, the Czar’s secret police, you are hardly committing a Godwin.
Gawk! Janine, your right, I got my authorship mixed up. Sorry. I have no idea why I thought it was written/forged in the 20th century, much less by the you-know-whos. I know it was a tsarist secret police forgery from the 19th century. Brain fart I guess… or perhaps excessive exposure to stupidity?
Got a fundie creationist here for sure. The lies and hate are diagnostic.
Dembski isn’t a scientist. He has one Ph.D in philosophy, another in mathematics, and a theology degree. You don’t do biology with a math degree.
BTW, half the posters on this board are scientists with real Ph.D.s and MDs and doing real research. Any one of them has done more to advance human knowledge than Dembski. Of course, my cat has done more as well, inasmuch as Dembski spends his time attacking science. Your degree dropping is simply hilarious in a fundie-sick sort of way.
When Dempski actually does science, we can call him a scientist. At best he’s a glorified mathematician who argues against a straw-man version of evolution.
We are just advancing the collective knowledge of mankind. Ever noticed that the 21st century looks a lot different from the 11th century? That was science not religious kooks.
Creationism isn’t even xian. The majority of xians worldwide don’t have a problem with evolution or the Big Bang or anything else science has discovered. ID/creationism is a cult belief of fundies mostly in the south central USA. It is illegal under US law to jam your cult beliefs into kid’s heads in science classes. Way it goes.
I can see you have fundie toxic mind syndrome. Hate, lies, and a disconnect from reality. It’s OK, free country and anyone can go through life hating and lying. We know the fundie tag line by heart. “All you atheistic, baby killing, cannibals are going to hell.” Death threats are optional but add that extra fundie cult xian flavor.
PS: and whatever you do, stay away from my kids!!!
You are either lying or a deluded psychotic. Hope you don’t teach sunday school. One weird lady sunday school teacher just abducted an 8 year girl and murdered her.
“Behe is a fourth rate hack who used to be a biochemist. He stopped doing biochemistry and publishing papers when he got involved in ID. Which just goes to show how productive a field ID is, since it isn’t science but politics and weird cult religion and, it hasn’t gone anywhere in well over 2,000 years.”
Behe has publsihed much research supporting Intelligent design. You can read them here
http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=submitSearchQuery&query=Michael%20J.%20Behe&orderBy=date&orderDir=DESC&searchBy=author&searchType=all&includeBlogPosts=true
Behe is a fourth rate hack at best. Myspace is not where you evaluate scientific output. We would look on pubmed, National Library of Medicine. I’ve published a lot more than him in higher impact journals, am in a related field and never even heard of him. His department is so ashamed of him they have a disclaimer on their website first page explaining that he has tenure and went off into pseudoscience land.
Expelled was a terrible propaganda film that lost money and was universally panned except in fundie xian cult circles.
And BTW, Patriot U. is a diploma mill that gives out fake degrees. And Kent Hovind is a sociopath who was convicted of felonies, 59 charges of tax evasion. He earned his place in prison for a long, long time.
So who are your other heros? We have a nonscientist who spouts propaganda and gets himself fired for being obnoxious and stupid, a felon sociopath, Stein the fascist wing nutcase, and a failed biochemist. How about Eric Rudolph, Paul Hill, Jim Bakker, and Ted Haggard? Seeking out the worst of our society isn’t smart but you don’t come across as too bright anyway.
Definitely a poe
If anyone was wondering about my ‘conquistador’ quiz – Janine didn’t seem to want to play :( – the answer is Stupidity Tries by Elliott Smith.
And so I go from floor to floor
Looking for a port of call
Another drunk conquistador
Conquering the governors ballhere to see him playing it on Letterman.
How can anyone seriously believe that a lawyer is going to come up with a challenge to the most well supported theory in science?
Sorry Wowbagger, I would have tried to answer if I had any idea. I assumed that someone had the correct answer. That is the way things usually work around here.
No. I am not. I am offering you fact, and you throw it back in my face. There has been no meaningful research done in the field if ID, there have been no ground-breaking papers published. The Discovery Institute’s religious agenda became undeniable when The Wedge Document was made public, and “the well” was poisoned by design proponents when the movie Expelled! was released.
DembskiFanGirl
wait…
Is this Denyse o Leary?
(But I can see that everything I just said has already been covered. I’m sure the facts will never sink in to DFG’s brain no matter how many times they are presented, due to the effectiveness of the defense mechanisms erected to protect the emotional investment she has made in what the ID propaganda machine has created.)
It is likely that dembskifangirl is a Poe, somebody faking being a delusional psychotic. There have been a few convincing ones lately. Whoever it is doesn’t even know what science is, what scientists are, or the difference between peer reviewed literature and lunatic fringe publications.
Either that or she really is some monster from one of the cults.
Neither is worth any more time.
Janine wrote:
Check out Elliott Smith’s stuff if you haven’t already. Talented, talented man – he died way too young.
Wowbagger, being a fan of Sleater-Kinney and Quasi, I am familiar with Elliot Smith. He is but one of too many talented people who cut short their own lives.
Nerd of Redhead, OM #325: Yep. In other words, scientists treat ID exactly like they treat any other “hypothesis”.
After the preliminary stage of treatment, however, only the scientists seem to be pay attention to the “result”: NEGATIVE.
The advocates whine like banshees.
Funny. On the one hand, they throw a tantrum that scientists won’t examine their idea (as if they haven’t). On the other hand, they WANT scientists NOT to find out about anything that so gravely concerns them as concerning the “truth”.
They want to have something only THEY know – ESPECIALLY something that scientists don’t know.
It’s even better if they CAN’T figure it out.
It’s actually all very vague and scatterbrained, but all they really want is to have the right to insist on an idea that scientists CAN’T tackle.
Victory is assured.
This is something that resonates with them. It gives them the illusion of being “right”.
Whoa. Good for them. They deserve laudits commensurate with the amount of knowledge they have fostered.
Pete Rooke and others will whoop up their pet crackpot idea as much as they like, but they will never ever understand that the raw-product idea comes up completely empty after passing through the first filter of inquiry.
Why? Well, because they’re just totally into the idea of it. “OMIGOD! It COULD explain SO MUCH!!!” To exceedingly dull-witted minds who are more easily swayed by hearsay than by the prospect of reproducible evidence, nobody can have any doubt.
And that’s ALL they’ll ever be able to persuade or convince: people who they’ve already hoodwinked into bankrolling their nifty little scam. (I say again, follow the MONEY. That’s what the whole thing is about).
It never bothers them their “hypothesis” is dismissed for good reasons in the first place. They do not care about how the scientific method works. They are much more concerned about how science increasingly demonstrates, through one discovery after another (from nature – the ostensible WORK OF GOD NO LESS!) that their views about reality have been completely wrong for a very very long time. They HATE that. They’re MUCH more worried about just having a say-so, and they’re fighting for a way to preserve their dominance.
Einstein once remarked that though “the old one” (which I personally take as his reference to nature) may be mysterious, but wasn’t malicious. Which makes one wonder: WHAT THE HELL IS IT WITH GOD, WHO SO MALICIOUSLY HIDES STUFF – EVEN LIKE EVIDENCE OF ID FROM ID ADVOCATES?
Is that what God does? Toy with His Beloved Creations whom He Personally invests His Interest? Wait a minute! Perhaps that explains why a tornado demolishes a family in one home and leaves the home next door completely untouched. People who thank a God that allows spares the surviving petitioner while breaking the necks of the people next door (“Oh dear, we went to church together and had barbecues with those people for YEARS – who would have known they were evil enough to incur the wrath of God!”) is such a gruesome and assinine reaction that no description is worthy of the ignominy.
I mean, COME ON ALREADY. Gimme a break.
Okay Petey. We’re all on pins and needles. We’re all dying to know. Lay it on us. Where’s the fucking beef? WHERE?
Show us the handle, and we’ll take it from there.
Ah. You don’t trust us? So that’s it. You have something you “know” that scientists can never know.
Nyaa Nya-aa Nyaa Nyaa.
PRICKS.
Fuck ’em.
Dembskifangirl is a poe. I just pretended to be a troll (I came up with the creative name Dembskifangirl) to see if I could fool you guys.I was funny though, admit it.
Some of us don’t find Poes to be funny in the slightest, facilis. And PZ indicated he’s on a pretty short fuse at the moment; sockpuppetry will get your ass banned if you aren’t careful.
Fuck you, Facilis. Sockpuppetry is one of the reasons PZ has instituted registration. Lying and misrepresentation in a sorry attempt to make his case has always been the best facilis could muster.
I vote PZ smites FP’s ass, summarily, and with no appeal.
Buh-Bye, asshole. Don’t let the door hit ya where a folic-acid deficiency split ya.
Facilis, we couldn’t tell the difference. All fundies have no logic and reason, and therefore sound the same, totally ignorant. Listen to Wowbagger, and take a week or two away from this blog. We’ll still be here and still be atheists when you return. PZ is not in the best of moods lately, for good reasons.
Listen to Wowbagger, and take a week or two away from this blog.
Hell, take a century or two away from this blog, facilis the lying ignoramus, if you’re so confident of your impending eternity as a bliss-ninny. “How can we miss you if you won’t go away?”
FP,
For fuck sakes facilis, PZ just warned you not to morph and now you admit to sockpuppetry for the purposes of trolling?! Not only that, you admit to this stupidity a few days after PZ was in a bad mood from Mabus and advised YOU specifically to lie low for the time being (advice Rooke did not heed).
Are you trying to get banned? Imagine making it through Survivor, just to get banned a few weeks later. Just stop.
Facilis, I could just as easily sign up my own fake persona and have her agreeing with every position you go off on. How that fuck would you know that I was just mocking and folling you.
Yeah, that is really fucking funny. Take your lying ass to your god and beg for forgiveness. And as penance, never post here again.
I’m sorry. I was just joking. Behe isn’t really a top biochemist and Dembski isn’t really a top mathematician.
I was just trying to be funny. I was pretending to be a fundy who supported the DI. I though you all laughed at Poes.
A fundy trying to pretend to pass for a fundy? When there is no difference between what you write as a poe and what you write under one of your multiple morphing nyms there can be no humor involved. Facilis is merely too witlessly boring to bother to mock.
I don’t laugh at Poes. They are a waste of time. Fuck off you dumb ass.
Wait, does this mean you are being a poe 24/7?
Catch-22, Facilis.
In order for a Poe to be funny, it can’t be a Poe as defined. That is, there has to be a detectable edge of satire, or it may as well be just another unteachable, arrogant ignoramus like Barb.
Bad call, Facilis. A performance lacking nuance, motivated by poor judgment in the first place. Tsk. Two thumbs down.
Your opinion on books sucks too Facillis, you dickless wonder.
But I used many detectable edges of satire.
I liked to Behe’s myspace page. I claimed there was a conspiracy to put Kent Hovind in jail on false tax charges. I claimed fringe scientists like Behe and Dembski were experts. I accused scientists of brainwashing people with dogma. and I used the whole DI tripe of “teach the controversy”. I said expelled was a 5-star movie based on Ben Stein’s review on the cover of the movie.
I thought I was doing excellent satire.
I thought I was doing excellent satire.
And I have no doubt you thought you were doing excellent logic when you claimed logic couldn’t exist without your imaginary sky fairy.
Want to know what is worse than explaining a joke? Explaining a joke that was stillborn.
How is this different, exactly, to your normal posts here?
I’ll give you a “K” for Effort, Facilis, but it was too much like the real thing to be distinguishable from it. I admit that the MySpace thing was inspired, in retrospect, but in the flow it was all too believable.
Or, not. Maybe you’re right. Quite a few others were calling “Poe” when I was still taking DFG seriously. I’ve been having a brain-fatigued, obtuse week.
Facilis, Ken makes the point better than I could. The MySpace thing was the ONLY thing you listed that wasn’t boilerplate fundy creo. They really DO think Hovind is a victim of a conspiracy, so there’s no satire in claiming that. There’s no satire in over-hyping the credibility of Dembski or Behe, or in praising Expelled!, because THAT’S WHAT THEY DO – and they do it without a trace of irony.
That’s why the satire wasn’t detectable (to me, anyway). The MySpace thing, in context, was very easy to accept as a new quirk that wasn’t very far out of line with the usual blather. I’ll give you that one, though. Heh. MySpace. (snicker)
I didn’t bother with faciliis in drag at all. Maybe it means I’m getting better at Poe-spotting (and ignoring) in my old age – then again, I fell for that asswipe Matt’s ‘Jim Tanger’ scam the other week, so maybe not…
I thought I was doing excellent satire.
So did Balaam’s ass.
FP
How is this substantially different from what you normally do ?
1
2
Wait…we had one idiot pretending to be another idiot just to stir up a lot of unnecessary noise? A creationist tried to advance creationist ideas by putting on the guise of an ever greater inanity?
That’s it. Facilis is gone.
What a tool
*facepalm*
The list of dungeon denizens has expanded rather rapidly lately.
I know, and I’m not thrilled about it. But then, the number of commenters has also been expanding rapidly lately.
And yet their common sense seems to be decreasing. Both Pete Rooke and facilis were warned; they continued prattling on regardless.
PZ,
I realize you were mightily pissed off with the Mabus thing,but the culling has to end…Weed out the insane,but leave us some of the inane,to sharpen our claws !
“…But then, the number of commenters has also been expanding rapidly lately.”
The signal to noise ratio is getting better, notwithstanding the deliberate interference. We’re winning! (Well when I say “we” I mean “us”.)